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Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

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kc2dptPosts:956Joined:Thu Jan 01, 20093:48 pm

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?by kc2dpt Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:16 pm

By chance I read this last night and thought it relevant. Sutta Nipata 5.6

[The Buddha:]

As a flame overthrown by the force of the wind

goes to an end

that cannot be classified,

so the sage free from naming activity

goes to an end

that cannot be classified.

[Upasiva:]

He who has reached the end:

Does he not exist,

or is he for eternity

free from dis-ease?Please, sage, declare this to me

as this phenomenon has been known by you.

[The Buddha:]

One who has reached the end

has no criterion

by which anyone would say that

for him it doesn't exist.

When all phenomena are done away with,

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all means of speaking

are done away with as well.

- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.

clw_ukPosts:4405Joined:Sun Jan 11, 20092:36 amLocation:Wales, UnitedKingdom

Re: Is the result of Parinibbana Annihilation?

by clw_uk Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:13 pm

Greetings

I couldnt find that on sutta but i found another good one

On one occasion Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Maha Kotthita were staying near Varanasi in the Game

Refuge at Isipatana. Then in the evening, Ven. Maha Kotthita emerged from his seclusion and

went to Ven. Sariputta and exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange offriendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven.

Sariputta, "Now then, friend Sariputta, does the Tathagata exist after death?"

"That, friend, has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata exists after death.'"

"Well then, friend Sariputta, does the Tathagata not exist after death?"

"Friend, that too has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata does not exist after

death.'"

"Then does the Tathagata both exist and not exist after death?"

"That has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist

after death.'"

"Well then, does the Tathagata neither exist nor not exist after death?"

"That too has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not

exist after death.'"

"Now, friend Sariputta, when asked if the Tathagata exists after death, you say, 'That has not

been declared by the Blessed One: "The Tathagata exists after death."' When asked if the

Tathagata does not exist after death... both exists and does not exist after death... neither

exists nor does not exist after death, you say, 'That too has not been declared by the Blessed

One: "The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death."' Now, what is the cause,

what is the reason, why that has not been declared by the Blessed One?"

"'The Tathagata exists after death' is immersed in form. 'The Tathagata does not exist after

death' is immersed in form. 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death' is

immersed in form. 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death' is immersed in

form.

"'The Tathagata exists after death' is immersed in feeling...
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"'The Tathagata exists after death' is immersed in perception...

"'The Tathagata exists after death' is immersed in fabrication...

"'The Tathagata exists after death' is immersed in consciousness. 'The Tathagata does not exist

after death' is immersed in consciousness. 'The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after

death' is immersed in consciousness. 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after

death' is immersed in consciousness.

"This is the cause, this is the reason, why that has not been declared by the Blessed One."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta

Pure awareness is pure knowledge

IndividualPosts:1970Joined:Mon Jan 12, 20092:19 am


by Individual Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:44 pm

AdvaitaJ wrote:

Having read Ajahn Brahm's book, Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond, this question keeps haunting

me. With parinibbana described as the remainder-less cessation of everything, what is the

difference between that and annihilation? I understand that as long as you're subject to rebirth,

annihilation is wrong view. What I don't understand is how the resultsare different when you're

no longer subject to rebirth. Everything ceases, right? The flame is extinguished, out, gone. It

didn'tgoanywhere, it's just gone. So, how is this different from annihilation?

Regards: AdvaitaJ

I think it's worth noting that in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta, the Buddha entered into and

returned from the "cessation of perception and feeling". If total cessation was annihilation,

this would not be the case.

The "total cessation" of Buddhism is the eighth liberation, which is disciplined through and

based upon mastering the previous liberations, which includes the ability to see form and

form, to see things as being "outside" of ourselves, and to see beauty. The Buddha also said

(and demonstrated) that it is possible to move freely between these eight modes of

perception.

Although the Mahayana conception of mystical worlds (i.e. Buddha lands, where Buddhas live)

beyond the three worlds (tiloka) is at best speculatory (but plausible), it would also be

misleading for a Theravada Buddhist to describe parinibbana as merely annihilationistic.

Annihilation is a means of ending individuated existence and it is not something one can return

from. But there is no such thing as "individuated" existence and the Buddha and the Arahants

were capable of returning from the death-like state of complete cessation.

The best things in life aren't things.
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4/16



The Diamond Sutra

cooranPosts:8183Joined:Tue Jan 06, 200911:32 pmLocation:Queensland,Australia


by cooran Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:50 pm

Hello all,

Annihilation is the belief that there is a self who is annihilated upon death

and

Eternalism is the belief that is a self who lives forever.

The Buddha taught that there is no self - just kammic accumulations and latent tendencies ... a

process.

What is there when the process ceases?

metta

Chris

---The trouble is that you think you have time---

---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---

---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

clw_ukPosts:4405Joined:Sun Jan 11, 20092:36 amLocation:Wales, UnitedKingdom


by clw_uk Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:09 am

Greetings


Any definite answer given will just be one that comes from a conditioned mind that is clinging

to one or more of the aggregates since (unless one is enlightened) there will be these latent

tendencies, subtle or great

The way out of these speculative views of "what happens after" is just to see clearly,

form, perception, formations, feeling and consciousness

Their origin and their passing away

The truth of form is anatta, perception is anatta, formations are anatta, feeling is anatta and

consciousness is anatta

This applies to any speculation about death, be it eternalist, annihilationist, rebirth or

parinibbana since to say
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5/16



"I will live forever"

"I will be annihilated"

And even "I will be reborn" or "there is exsistence after parinibbana" or "there is no exsistence

after parinibbana"

All involves some kind of clinging and so self identification with one or more of the aggregates

Metta

Pure awareness is pure knowledge

JasonPosts:471Joined:Sun Jan 04, 20091:09 amLocation:EarthContact:


by Jason Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:22 pm

AdvaitaJ,

Yes, but only if you consider Theravada realist.

It has often been asserted that Theravada, particularly "classical" Theravada in which the entire

Tipitaka and its commentaries are considered authoritative, is ultimately realist. Nevertheless,

this criticism, which for the most part comes from Yogacara and Madhyamika, is heavily

disputed. For example, in his Introduction to Buddhism, Harvey explains, "'They are dhammas

because they uphold their own nature [sabhaava]. They are dhammasbecause they are upheld

by conditions or they are upheld according to their own nature' (Asl.39). Here 'own-nature'

would mean characteristic nature, which is not something inherent in a dhammaas a separate

ultimate reality, but arise due to the supporting conditions both of other dhammasand

previous occurrences of that dhamma. This is of significance as it makes the Mahayana critique

of the Sarvastivadin's notion of own-nature largely irrelevant to the Theravada" (87).

Personally, whether or not Harvey is correct in his characterization of the Theravada position, I

believe this quasi-realistic view is the result of early Abhidhammikas attempting to reify

certain concepts that should never have been reified, e.g. dhammas, khandhas, etc.

In my opinion, the core of texts that constitute the Sutta Pitaka are not realist per se, but

there are certain concepts found within Theravada that do appear to present themselves as

such. Essentially, I think that classical Theravada, in which the entire Tipitaka and its

commentaries are considered authoritative, borders on realism dependingon how you

understand the terms "dhamma" and "sabhava." All I can say is that Theravada does not go as

far as Sarvastivada, although it does push the boundaries and can easily be interpretedas

being realist, which then opens the door to accusations of nihilism.

In one of the ways that I like to look at it, the conventional viewpoint explains things through

subject, verb and object whereas the ultimate viewpoint explains things through verb alone. In

essence, things are being viewed from the perspective of activities and processes. This, I

think, is incredibly difficult to see, but perhaps what happens here is that once self-identity

view (sakkaya-ditthi) is removed, the duality of subject and object is also removed thereby

revealing the level of mere conditional phenomena. Nibbanawould then be regarded as the

end of this conditional phenomena, or in other words, the cessation of the activity of samsara

(perpetual wandering).
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6/16



This is where one can insert any claims of nihilism if one is able to substantiate that this

cessation of activity is the destruction of something real, substantial, etc. In other words, if

the five aggregates of clinging (khandhas) are real in the sense that they are concrete, existing

entities, conditioned or otherwise, then their cessation would be a type of nihilism. In

addition, within classical Theravada, the the goal is said to be the utter extinction of all

consciousness per the verse in DN 11: "Ettha namanca rupanca, asesam uparujjhati. Vinnanassa

nirodhena etthetam uparujjhati" (Here [in nibbana], namaas well as rupaceases without

remainder. By ceasing of consciousness, namaas well as rupaceases here) (Suan Lu Zaw).

The arguments on both sides become very complex and voluminous at this point. For example,there are arguments that claim that everything is an illusion, i.e., perceived reality is

ultimately unreal, hence there is no actual cessation; there are arguments that claim the

complete cessation of all consciousness is only nihilistic if one takes consciousness as being

"me," "mine," or "myself," etc.

For me, "real" simply means an existing cognizable experience. Going back to my statement

concerning how I like to look at this, I understand the five aggregates of clinging to represent

things that we do as opposed to just things. In other words, there is an act of intention that

goes into our experience. In SN 56.11, for example, the Buddha summarizes stress and

suffering (dukkha) as the five aggregates of clinging. Furthermore, in MN 43the five

aggregates of clinging are described in their verb forms, or in other words, not as things but asactivities.

Therefore, when looking at the arising of the five aggregates of clinging in this way, we are

effectively looking at the arising of [the activity of] stress and suffering; when looking at the

cessation of the five aggregates of clinging in this way, we are effectively looking at the

cessation of [the activity of] stress and suffering. Thus, all that ceases is [the activity of] stress

and suffering, not an independently existing entity of any kind. Since this cessation is

cognizable, it too can be considered "real." Moreover, since only an activity has been stopped,

there is no actual destruction of any "thing."

My view is probably not in line with classical Theravada on this point, however, so please

consider my thoughts with that caveat in mind.

Best wishes,

Jason

"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

leaves in the hand(Buddhist-related blog)

leaves in the forest(non-Buddhist related blog)

JechbiPosts:1268Joined:Thu Jan 01, 20093:38 amContact:


by Jechbi Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:44 pm

Chris wrote:


process.


Right.
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7/16



From the article Chris posted earlier:

Bhikkhus, there is an unborn, an unbecome, an unmade, an unformed. (Ud 73; It 45)

Personally, I think it's a safe bet to assume that anything we think of as "me," anything we

regard as ourself, everything that we are in this moment, will not last. From our unenlightened

perspective, it is annihilation. Gotta let it all go, cuz it's going away any way. And then don't

worry about it.

Metta

Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,

But never soddens what is open;

Uncover, then, what is concealed,

Lest it be soddened by the rain.

AdvaitaJPosts:234Joined:Sat Jan 24, 20091:17 amLocation:Michigan, USA


by AdvaitaJ Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:55 pm

Elohim wrote:

Therefore, when looking at the arising of the five aggregates of clinging in this way, we are

effectively looking at the arising of [the activity of] stress and suffering; when looking at the

cessation of the five aggregates of clinging in this way, we are effectively looking at the

cessation of [the activity of] stress and suffering. Thus, all that ceases is [the activity of] stress

and suffering, not an independently existing entity of any kind. Since this cessation is

cognizable, it too can be considered "real." Moreover, since only an activity has been stopped,

there is no actual destruction of any "thing."

Elohim,

A veryintriguing view. If you permit the substitution of "process" for "activity" in your definition

above, this tends back to another point of anatta I'm wrestling with. Specifically, I'm to the

point of wondering why the unique collection of responses that each of us presents to causes

could not be considered the "self". Rather than seeking an individual entity as a self, why not

the very large number of behaviors that each of us responds with when triggered to do so by

causes. As has been pointed out elsewhere, we are different people in differing circumstances.

To the point, this could imply a definition of nibbana as the elimination of the inputs that

trigger the resulting output responses. No inputs = no response. Nothing was destroyed because

nothing was triggered to start.

Regards: AdvaitaJ

The birds have vanished down the sky. Now the last cloud drains away.

We sit together, the mountain and me, until only the mountain remains.Li Bai

pt1Posts:415Joined:Thu Jan 22, 2009


by pt1 Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:56 am
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8/16



2:30 am Thanks clw, Ven.Appicchato, Chris, and all for your replies and links. Also, thanks sukhamanveti

for explaining the mechanics of your conclusion thats what Ive been really after, and I

apologise to all if I have dragged the thread towards the whole issue of self and nihilism and all

that - I was really just interested in the mechanics of parinibbana since I think we all agree

that arahat has no self anymore to worry about.

Im still unclear on how is it that an arahat keeps nibbana attainment beyond parinibbana in

mechanical terms, since my understanding of classical Theravada so far is that nibbana as a

dhamma can only be taken up as an object of citta (with help from cetasikas). So after

parinibbana, this seems to become impossible, because theres no more cittas or cetsikas toperform that function. So, I would appreciate if someone can show where and how exactly am

I wrong in this understanding.

Once more, this is not to do with annihilationism or eternalism, self and all that, but just how

the dhammas work so that nibbana can be experienced after parinibbana (if it can be).

Thanks

pt1Posts:415Joined:Thu Jan 22, 20092:30 am


by pt1 Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:04 am

Hi Chris,

Chris wrote:


process.


Personally, I love the reference to a process. However, lately Im getting jitters if perhaps Ive

unknowingly brainwashed myself through reading a bit too many mahayana posts on e-sangha

and thus taken up all sorts of mahayana understandings of Dhamma

As Im finding out, dhammas in classical theravada are pretty much really real, as elohim also

mentions, so dhammas are not illusions and illusory as it is thought in mahayana I think.

Therefore, Im wondering about the process sayings and how relevant they are to Theravada.

I mean, does it refer to dhammas being unreal, or dhammas having the three charactersitcs, or

something else?

Sure dhammas are dukkha, anicca and anatta (except for nibbana which is only anatta), but in

classical theravada that apparently doesnt mean that they are an illusion like in mahayana.

And relevant to this thread, nibbana is a reality, and as such it can be experienced by these

other dhammas (citta and cetasikas), which are also real while arahat still has functional

aggregates. After the aggregates are gone, again this brings me to the same question how is

it that nibbana as a reality can be experienced (if it can be)?

Anyway, Im not asserting anything, just wondering about things.

Best wishes


9/16



kc2dptPosts:956Joined:Thu Jan 01, 2009

3:48 pm


by kc2dpt Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:42 pm

pt1 wrote:

Im wondering about the process sayings and how relevant they are to Theravada. does it

refer to dhammas being unreal, or dhammas having the three charactersitcs, or something else?

As far as I know, it refers to things which we normally take as static, existing entities but which

actually aren't. Talking about "processes" is a way of making clear the teaching on anicca.

Sure dhammas are dukkha, anicca and anatta...

Are they? The teaching I'm familiar with says:

sabbe sankhara anicca.

sabba sankhara dukkha.

sabbe dhamma anatta.

Perhaps you are conflating sankhara and dhamma?



aggregates. After the aggregates are gone, again this brings me to the same question how is it

that nibbana as a reality can be experienced (if it can be)?

I don't now. Talk of what an arahant experiences or doesn't experience post parinibbana seems

to me to fall squarely in the category of topics the Buddha said cannot be meaningfully talked

about. I guess this won't satisfy your urge to know.

"When all phenomena are done away with, all means of speaking are done away with as well."

- Peter




by pt1 Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:50 am

Peter wrote:

pt1 wrote:

Im wondering about the process sayings and how relevant they are to Theravada. does it

refer to dhammas being unreal, or dhammas having the three charactersitcs, or something

else?

As far as I know, it refers to things which we normally take as static, existing entities but which

actually aren't. Talking about "processes" is a way of making clear the teaching on anicca.
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10/16



Thanks Peter, I think youre right, and my mistake was to read a bit too much into the

process meaning, ending up with understanding it to mean illusion, smoke and mirrors, and

those sorts of things.

Peter wrote:

pt1 wrote:

Sure dhammas are dukkha, anicca and anatta...

Are they? The teaching I'm familiar with says:

sabbe sankhara anicca.

sabba sankhara dukkha.

sabbe dhamma anatta.

Perhaps you are conflating sankhara and dhamma?

Possibly. Afaik, in abhidhamma all paramattha dhammas (citta, cetasikas, rupa and nibbana)

are considered to have the three characteristics, except nibbana which is not anicca and

dukkha, but is anatta. Interesting though, in the sutta you quote, does sankhara include

citta (consciousness)? Afaik, in abhidhamma sankhara stands for cetasikas and includes threeaggregates feeling, perception and volitional formations. So, from that POV, your quote

would be saying that these three aggregates are anicca and dukkha, but consciousness isnt

anicca and dukkha?

Peter wrote:

pt1 wrote:



aggregates. After the aggregates are gone, again this brings me to the same question how

is it that nibbana as a reality can be experienced (if it can be)?

I don't now. Talk of what an arahant experiences or doesn't experience post parinibbana seems

to me to fall squarely in the category of topics the Buddha said cannot be meaningfully talked

about. I guess this won't satisfy your urge to know.

"When all phenomena are done away with, all means of speaking are done away with as well."

I see what youre saying, but still it is hard to shake off the doubt the feeling that arahatship

is not the best of solutions as it seems only short-lived until parinibbana. I guess that shows

lack of faith on my side. Im wondering how do others deal with this issue considering that it

can't be meaningfully talked about.

Best wishes


by Dhammanando Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:58 am

Hi Pt,
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11/16



DhammanandoPosts:2558Joined:Tue Dec 30, 200810:44 pmLocation:Wat Doi PhraKoed, Chom Thong,Chiang Mai

pt1 wrote:

Afaik, in abhidhamma sankhara stands for cetasikas and includes three aggregates feeling,

perception and volitional formations.

I think you have it the wrong way round.

The sankharakkhandha makes up 50 of the Abhidhamma's 52 cetasikas. Vedanakkhandha and

saakkhandha make up the remaining two.

Vedana and sa are included in sankhara in any context where sankhara means conditioned

thing, but not in contexts where it means sankharakkhandha.

Best wishes,

Dhammanando Bhikkhu

Sundrrom n

Pli Romnistion

sr : i u e okj : k t luj : c j j

mudj :

dntj : t d n

oj : p b m

v : y r l v s h niht : i

kc2dptPosts:956Joined:Thu Jan 01, 20093:48 pm


by kc2dpt Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:45 am

pt1 wrote:

I see what youre saying, but still it is hard to shake off the doubt the feeling that arahatship is

not the best of solutions as it seems only short-lived until parinibbana. I guess that shows lack

of faith on my side. Im wondering how do others deal with this issue considering that it can't

be meaningfully talked about.

I dunno. I guess I don't worry about what "nibbana" means. I think I know what "stress" means,

though, and I know what "lessening stress" means and I think that "end of all stress" sounds like

a good thing... and so I focus on that.

Hunger: the foremost illness.

Fabrications: the foremost pain.

For one knowing this truth

as it actually is,

Unbinding is the foremost ease.

- Dhp 203

- Peter


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12/16



sukhamanvetiPosts:169

Joined:Sun Mar 08,2009 7:33 pmLocation:U.S.A.

by sukhamanveti Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:09 am

pt1 wrote:

Im wondering how do others deal with this issue considering that it can't be meaningfully talked

about.

For me the issue is a pragmatic one. After enlightenment, we are told, one no longer craves

existence and one no longer craves nonexistence. At that point, then, one doesn't care

whether parinibbana is extinction or not. Right now, if there is even a small possibility that

parinibbana is not total extinction, then looking to that possibility gives me greater motivation

and encouragement to practice than the alternative. That to me is the tie-breaking argument.

Slabalaappaima.

Slavudhamuttama.

Slambharaaseha.

Slakavacamabbhuta.

Virtue is a matchless power.

Virtue is the greatest weapon.

Virtue is the best adornment.

Virtue is a wonderful armor.

Theragatha 614

Sabbappassa akaraa,

kusalassa upasampad,

Sacittapariyodapana,

etabuddhna ssana.

Refraining from all wrong-doing,

Undertaking the good,

Purifying the mind,

This is the teaching of the buddhas.

Dhammapada v. 183/14.5

sukhamanvetiPosts:169Joined:Sun Mar 08,2009 7:33 pmLocation:U.S.A.


by sukhamanveti Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:20 am

Elohim wrote:

In addition, within classical Theravada, the the goal is said to be the utter extinction of all

consciousness per the verse in DN 11: "Ettha namanca rupanca, asesam uparujjhati. Vinnanassa

nirodhena etthetam uparujjhati" (Here [in nibbana], namaas well as rupaceases without

remainder. By ceasing of consciousness, namaas well as rupaceases here) (Suan Lu Zaw). Jason

There is more than one way to read the Kevaddha Sutta (DN 11). Bhikkhu Nanananda, in the

BPS booklet Concept and Reality in Early Buddhist Thought, analyzes the Pali in light of related

passages in the Tipitaka and concludes that it addresses the consciousness of a livingarahant,

despite references to cessation: "It is very likely that the reference again is to the anna-phala

samadhi (the 'Fruit of Knowledge' concentration) of the Arahant... The last line of the verse

stresses the fact that the four great elements do not find a footing --and that name-and-form

(comprehending them) can be cut off completely--in that anidassana-vinnana (the
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'nonmanifestative consciousness') of the Arahant, by the cessation of his normal consciousness

which rests on the data of sense experience." (pp. 65-66) He then discusses and rejects

Buddhaghosa's "after-death" interpretation. If consciousness can cease in one sense (ordinary

consciousness) and not cease in another (boundless or infinite consciousness), then this leaves

open the possibility of some form of consciousness surviving parinibbana.

Slabalaappaima.

Slavudhamuttama.

Slambharaaseha.

Slakavacamabbhuta.

Virtue is a matchless power.

Virtue is the greatest weapon.

Virtue is the best adornment.

Virtue is a wonderful armor.

Theragatha 614

Sabbappassa akaraa,

kusalassa upasampad,

Sacittapariyodapana,

etabuddhna ssana.

Refraining from all wrong-doing,

Undertaking the good,

Purifying the mind,

This is the teaching of the buddhas.

Dhammapada v. 183/14.5

nathanPosts:692Joined:Sat Feb 07, 20093:11 am


by nathan Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:48 am

"There is, monks, that base where there is neither earth, nor water,

nor heat, nor air; neither the base of the infinity of space, nor the

base of the infinity of consciousness, nor the base of nothingness,

nor the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this

world nor another world; neither sun nor moon. Here, monks, I say

there is no coming, no going, no standing still; no passing away and

no being reborn. It is not established, not moving, without support.

Just this is the end of suffering."

(Ud 8:1;80)

I like this one drawn from Chris' quotations from previous discussion.

There are many ways this presented more positively. The worldly incline to a view tainted by asense of self be it gross or subtle which is forever anxious and agitated about it's fate [nail it to

the wall and meditate on it I say : ) ]. When this is fully defeated to the root, the inclination is

to this other base instead, non-arising. Awakening to an actual non-arising Dhamma; and also,

the non-arising of any such of the former inclinations to identify with any arising samsaric

conditions as I, me or mine, samsara is emptied of self and so too of suffering thereabouts

thereafter. Some go on to say samsara is then also nibbana, say it's 'whatever man', as it is no

longer suffering the stain of ongoing kamma making and suffering. Samsara is clearly and fully

known and seen for what it is ongoing instead of a sense of lost-ness and loss. Life would linger

on but the 'penalty' for living would be gone until even the 'tally' or 'score', the result of a living

form is gone. It makes sense but not in the sense of identifying with it either, the path applies


14/16



at the end as well except that the full application is entirely realized.

Does it continue to be realized? Why not? It has no beginning and no end.

I say go for it, what do we have to loose except our pain and sorrow? It must be wonderful to

say the least!

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of

thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti115}



by pt1 Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:27 am

Dhammanando wrote:

I think you have it the wrong way round.

The sankharakkhandha makes up 50 of the Abhidhamma's 52 cetasikas. Vedanakkhandha and

saakkhandha make up the remaining two.

Vedana and sa are included in sankhara in any context where sankhara means conditioned

thing, but not in contexts where it means sankharakkhandha.

Thank you for the correction Bhante. Also thanks Peter, Ed and Nathan, your replies are

encouraging each in its own way.

Best wishes

nathanPosts:692Joined:Sat Feb 07, 20093:11 am


by nathan Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:16 pm

pt1 wrote:

...still it is hard to shake off the doubt the feeling that arahatship is not the best of solutions

as it seems only short-lived until parinibbana. I guess that shows lack of faith on my side. Im

wondering how do others deal with this issue considering that it can't be meaningfully talked

about.

Best wishes

Hi pt1;

Well, I don't trouble with talking about it much or even thinking about it much either anymore.

Intellectually, issues around nibbana are frustrating short of some kind of actual experience

and then they aren't frustrating at all any more. So my advice is to pour that effort into steam

entry. As I see it the question of what is what will resolve itself experientially. If the theravada

are correct then existence ends with arahatta magga, if the mahayana are correct then that is

simply one level of existence being "over" and the beginning of another kind of work. In either

case it makes sense to get that done first if one is going to provide the maximum benefit to all

beings. If theravada is correct about bodhisattas and you are one, then that is going to become

clear in the same way, through attempting to complete the work of a disciple. If the mahayana
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is right then even becoming an arahat isn't an impediment to being a bodhisattva. So that is

how I am approaching it. One step at a time.

As for nibbana as a 'real' dhamma, I think that an identification with nibbana is only realizable

in the context that in the realization of nibbana, one (in a sense) IS nibbana. That is, the mind

is not arising at that moment as mind in any conventional sense but as nibbana instead - which

has no qualities or characteristics comparable to consciousness or mind. So, in theory, upon

death, the arahat does not arise as any other dhamma because there is no cause but also the

arahat does not cease to 'not arise' as nibbana (I say 'not arise' instead of 'arise' because

paradoxically nibbana is a non-arising dhamma but it is still an 'existing' dhamma, just not aconditionally dependent dhamma).

Because nibbana has no relation to time or space or consciousness it is not a dhamma which

comes and goes, either for the arahat or in any absolute sense at all. It is entirely consistent in

the sense that it is as accessible from anywhere in time and space but it is not 'connected' to

time and space in any way at any time or anywhere. So, parinibbana, in this context, is an

escape from conditional dhammas and also an escape from space, time and consciousness.

Nibbana is therefore everpresent and unchanging but also non-arising and un-manifest

conditionally.

The mind simply cannot relate to it. Before 'being nibbana' instead of 'being mind', mind has noclue how or why or what or where nibbana could possibly be and in a very real sense after

'becoming nibbana' mind has no clue how or why or what or where nibbana could possibly be

either, but mind does know that this is so and that it is a dhamma with no beginning and no

end, that it is timeless, space-less, condition-less and consciousness-less. Mind does

understand itself in the light of nibbana as entirely conditional and temporary in all times and

spaces and that for nibbana to arise mind must cease or acquiesce it's existence in preference

to abiding (or in a more 'real' sense, non-abiding) as nibbana instead.

So my advice is always to follow the instructions that get you there, to an actual experience of

nibbana, after that you will not have any fewer questions about nibbana but you will never

again be dissatisfied, about that inability to express the nature of these things, because you

will understand why it is that nibbana defies the conscious mind's capacities to comprehend

dhammas.

Conditional dhammas are the province of mind. Nibbana is the province of only nibbana.

This is simply the way it is. Arguments about what is actually going on, even between those

who can reference nibbana in this way will likely continue for so long as other dhammas and

sentient mind does, simply because mind cannot resolve some of these things at all.

Conditional dhammas change and change considerably (because the compounding of the

conditional dhammas allows for such vast diversities of compounded forms), the one

unconditional dhamma will never change in any way, will never arise, and will never cease

either.

I hope that helps a little.

upekkha

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of

thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti

115}

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robertkPosts:1608Joined:Sat Jan 03, 20092:08 am

by robertk Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:54 am

Dear Pt

You do understand that there are only citta cetasika and rupa, no self. Upon death of the

arahat all that remains is the bone fragments, i.e. some rupa.

Thus in no way is there anilhilation as there never was a self, ever.

BTW there are some hilarious things on the internet about people talking with past Buddhas, or

searching through relics of monks to find crystals which "show" they were arahats. I used to

find these things a bit sad but it is better to enjoy a laugh (albeit rooted in lobha).

Edit to add this links. After writing this post I came across this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1096

robert

Oh I just remembered the best one yet. One article I read claims that an arhats citta or

consciousness or whatver is some special type that is unbound and floats around somehow

after death, presumably outside of samsara. Darn now I feel sad

again:tantrum:

http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums

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