1JOE WATKCTS Also present: Barry MartynI [of 3] "Digest "Retyped. Richard B. AlienJanuary 20, 196l

Joseph Watkins was born October 24j 1900 at Charity Hospital [NewJ/

Orleans]; he lived quite a few years in the Third Ward. His musicalYT.

inspiratlort came from hearing "brass bands play for the Sunday- parades of

various (e. g.. Magnolia, Pickle, Tammany) social and pleasure clubs. The

clubs also had. Monday night; dances. There 'were also dances at various halls,

among them Kenny's Hall [also known as the Funky Butt Hall] on PercUdo,

between Liberty and Franklin [now LoyolaQ) --JWT s godmother took him there

when he was a chilcl--Bunk Johnson was playing there then. Louis [ArmsTbrong ]

was small at the tiDie, and often fooling around with the corne-bj Louis got

his inspiration from Bunk. JW was inspired Tby Henry Martin, "Black Benny"

[Williams], "Red Happy" [Bolton], Baby Dodds. About 19l8, JW" took lessons

from Henry Martin, who taught him the press roll and various 'beats; in 1919^

JW bought his first set of drums (which he describes). He was then living

at Johnson and Lapeyrouse [Streets], vorking nights at the Whitney National

Bank; during the day, he -would prac-bu^se tunes on a kazoo [accompanied by his

drums?],, t.eaching himself how to keep time, etc. He would some-fcimes go to

the Lyric Theater, orchestra directed by John RoMchaux; some-bimes Red Happy

would be drumming, and sometimes Black Benny, who was more of a Bhcwman than

Happy. Eventually, J fcegan playing at yard parties, with a pianis-b friend;

JW had moved "backup" to Iberville and Galvez [Streets] then. Later, theyIt tt

added a kazoo player, "Frog", a very stout youth who llve<^ on Pauger S'breet^

his instrument was in the form of a comet j and sounded. like one. JW says,

"All during the mearrfcl-me, I -was ge-fctlng siy beats to ge-fcher; ...lot of the

boys ... on drums ... was just playing .mostly for the fun of it." Foster

(trombone) and Dude (trumpet) Lewis ,. 'brothers j had a band in which Bud

JOE WATKINS 2

I [of 3]--Dlges-b--RetypedJanuary 20, 196l

Rousell [spelling?] was playing; JW*s group got him to work with -bhan on

numerous Sunday Evenings (they played all over town, but mostly at theJ

yard party near JW's home); with Rousell on bass, there were four in the

group: JW, drmasj Baby Brewster [Check his in-tervie-w for correct name.

RBA] (piano] and Frog, kazoo. Rousell got J into the band with the Lewis

'brothers: Rousell played bassj Foster Lewis, trombone; Dude Lewis, trumpet;

Eddie Dawson, banjo [see follcwlng]: JW, drums; "Yellow", saxophone;

Clarence "Little Dad" Vincent, 'banjo [see previous]. JW was .with that band

for several years (around 1920-22) sometimes Dawson played bass^ some-bimes

he played banjo.

JW has a modern set of drums now; however, he doesnt-fc use all the traps,

figuring that to ge-b an "authentic" sound he must use "authentic" equipment.

He has never used a sock cymbal (high hat); they were not used in the old

days, and he doesn*t consider -them necessary to the style of music he plays.

The first time he ever saw a high hat being used was about 1940j in New

Orleans. JW says his music usually requires four beats per measure on the

bass drum, and that using the high hat too [on beats 2 and 4] would complicate

matters and tend -bo confuse the other musicians. Louis Cot-brell [Sr.Jj

who read most of his musiCj was different from Black Benny^ "who never did

read; Benny took lessons from Henry Martin, with whom JW also studied, JW

comments on press rolls, saying that jazz drummers have always used press

rolls, but that one seldom hears that roll used in big bands or in small

combos [cocktail groups?--modern jazz groups?]. JW says he took a few

lessons in reading music from Paul BarT^arln, but he and Paul figured that

since JW only wanted -to -play jazz, he didn't need to know more than he already

knew,

JOE WATKINSI [of 3]--Digest--Re-bypedJanuary 20, 196l

iTW quit playing music during the late Twenties, because music work was

slow; his last job before he quit -was in the Irish Channel; he sold his^

drums. He got married, moved to a place across the street from his present

home. Around 194lj Walter Nelson, guitarist (who hangs around the bar of

[Alphonse] Plcou, and is a good friend of Picou), suggested tha-b JW ge-fc a

se-b of drums and resume playing; Nelson said he could get some work. JW

began working with Nelson, and was further encouraged by Herb Morandj who

when working with JW and Nelson, told JW to keep his drums, th^-fc he could give

him some work. JW, then working days at the bank, began to work at music

a lot, too* The band [Morand's] -worked about two years on Fridays, Saturdays

and Sundays at the Silver Star, -which was at St. Bernard and St. Claude

[Avenues]; George Lewis and "Slew Drag" [Pavageau] worked with them at one

time. The personnel was not steady. After the place was raided, the band

quit. After that job, the bsuad played various fu-nctions in -the country, mostly

colored picnics. JW worked a job at Lenfan-brs [Res-fcauran-fc ] wi-fch Eddie Morris;

later the same evening, he worked wi-bh George Lewis, Latyrence Marrero and

Pavageau; after ano-fcher job with Lewis, he was asked to join the band, which

he did. The band went to work at Manny*s Tavern, remaining there several

years, playing Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights. Then Nick Gagliano Toecame

manager of the band and got them steady work at -the El Morroco [nightclub],

where they worked about two years, [l95°-1952?]. In that band were Elmer

Taltsertj Pavageau, Alton Purnell, Lewis, Marrero, Jim Rotoinson and JW.

The Reverend [Alvin] Kershaw heard the Tsand; a fellow from Chicago, Hank,

also heard them. They were booked in Cincinnati, then in Oxford [Ohio],

then went to Chicago. Hank got them more jobs around -bhe country. Then

4JOE WATKINSI [of 3]--Digest--Re-fcypedJanuary 20j 1961

they went to California., through -the efforts of Rose [s-fcanman?], making aLout

a dozen trips in all. Talber-bj who died in 1-950^ had/been replaced by^

[Albert "Fernande^altera, ?]irtio worked with Paul Bar^arin some-fclmes;

Kid Howard replaced him, making several trips to California with the tsand;

Thomas Jefferson alternated wi-fch Howard on some of the trips. [is omitting

Herb Morand and Percy Humphrey - -RBA L The first regular trumpe-fc player the

Lewis band had after JW joined them -was Eliner Talbert^ JW did not ever

work with Bunk Johnson, JW was working a-fc the Silver Star when Lewis went

to New York to join Johnson, in 19^ emd JW joined -the Lewis band in 19^6,

after they got T^ack from [the second trip to] New York. [The jobs for

Rose S-banman were at the Beverty Caverns]. The band worked in gan Francisco

a-b the Tin Angel, then at the Hangover Club, where Lizzie Miles and Joe

RoMchaux were on the same bill. When J was experiencing hard -times

about 1955, he was invited by Doc Doro-aghty [spelling?], prdiprletor of the

Hangover, to Tse in the house 'band, led by Ed Garland; JW joined the band in

late August of 1955, and played there six weeks, in -the band tsesides JW

and Garland were Earl Hinesj [piano]; Darnell Howard jdarinet^ [Eddie

Sml-fch--RBA]j trumpet; Jimmy Archey, trombonej JW was replaced by Earl

Wa-fckins, whose s-fcyle fit the band be-b-fcer than JW1s. George Lewis had

returned to Los Angeles, at the Beverly Caverns, with Cie Frazier on drums »

JWj passing through on his way back -bo Hew Orleans, was asked by Frazier

-bo take over the dn-uoamer's jol3, because he wanted to go Tsack to New Orleans

for a civil service job, JW tools: over, and Frazier returned home.

End of Reel I

5JOE WATKINS Also present: Barry Mar-fcynII [of 3]--Digest--Re-byped Richard B. Alien

January 20, 196l

[Continuing the story of Cie Frazler's reguest -fchat JW replace him^

in the George Lewis Band at the Beverly Caverns, Los Angelesj late 1955]--

Frazier re'bumed to New Orleans, and JW completed the engagement with the

Lewis band, which lasted about two months more. Then the band returned to

New Orleans, doing some job'bing around. At .fchis time Kid. Howard was playing

trumpet;. Lawrence [Marrero, on banjo] began having attacks of [cerebral]

-bhrombosis on the California jo'b- The "band made a few tripSj among them

some to Cincinnati, playing at the [Sentinal, Senator?] Hotel on weekends^

while at the hotel, they received -word that a trip to Europe was imminent;*

In the meantime, Joe Roblchaux had joined the band, on piano, replacing Alton

Pumellj 'who had remained in San Francisco (later moved to Los Angeles) after

the band's engagement at the Tin Angel in 195^; George Lewis made his first

solo trip overseas [Europe] after the San Francisco engagement. That band had

Bob Thomas on trombone and Tom Jefferson on "brum.pet, and is the one which

recorded for Cavalier records; Marrero was not with the Tsand then. JW missed

him, not only because of their friendship, but because Marrero helped JW

keep his time right. With the banjo present, JW didnt'fc feel any need to use

his cymbal in the opening chorus^ but with the banjo out, he uses it to

help provide a bigger soundj particularly in fast and moderate .tempos; he says

Lewis requested that he use the cyrabal in that manner, also* JW began

singing when playing with the Lewis Tsand at Mannie's [spelling?] Tavern; his

idea was to give -bhe horn men some rest; later^ Purnell was added on piano to

fill in while JW was singing* JW had no singing lessons; his father was a

fine Toass "songster", so he figured he should be able to sing also. REA mentions

songs JW sang at Mannie's [spelling?] two of them being "Down On The Farm" and

JOE WATKINS 6II [of 3]- -Digest "Ee-fcypedJanuary 20, 196l

"If I Was A Itty-Bitty Boy." JW begins to talk about a job he played wi-fch

(Toe ["Brother Cornbread"] Thomas, but -there is an Interruption. BM and JWJ

talfc about JW*s use of wire brushes in the church [Oxford, Ohio recording];^.

[Riv 12" IiP] and (Empirical 10" LP); the brass used mutes and JW used brushes *

to keep the volume down, because the amplificatlon system -was very powerful »

JW says he had never known of a jazz band's playing in a church before.

[*'.IKBA] Discussion of two Lewis band funeral sequences, one for recording,

(Disc Jockey label) during which Marrero played his own bass drum on the

recording and JWTs bass drum the other time* Discussion of the recording

"Dr. Jazz" LP [Antone and Delmar Records], and of the over-re cord ing of the

drums*

Asked about Kid Howard's playing in the Twenties (Howard was originally

a drummer), JW tells of meeting Howard's band on the Mississippi coa.st; JW

was playing with Bud Roussel and Foster Lewis a-b the time, and both Panels were

advertisang their respective dances for -fcha-fc nigh-b; JW says Howard was really

great, playing like Louis [Armstrong], JW says Howard Ts playing -then was

even better then than on Bill Russellts Climax recordings of the middle Forties

[On Blue Note lalsel also]. Discussion of other musicians who were originally

drummers; Bill Matthews, now a -brombonlst, is mentioned. JW says his brother,

"Bebe" Matthews, was one of the best drummers in New Orleans, [-the 'best]^

-with the exception of Louis Co-btrell [Sr.]. Continuingj JW says the best

drummers in New Orleans were Co-fctrell^ Bebe Mat-fchews, Baby Dodds, Henry Martin,

"Red Happy" [Bolton] and "Black Benny" [Williams]. "Two Bi-fcs", another pretty

good drummer, vas from the Third Ward, .and a good bit older than JW. JW

mentions another drummer, "Cook Shop Son". JW says Dodds's style didn't

change from the early years, that i-fc was the same when Dodds played with Bunk

Johnson in the Forties. [Compare recording. RBA] JW says most druimners, in

JOE WATKINS 7II [of 3]--Digest-RetypedJanuary 20, 1961

fact, most musicians in the old days didn't find it necessary to be able to

read music. "Practically, none of the musicians, I don't care what instrumentf

you was playing, they hardly -worried with sheet music because -fchey had. that»^

r.music in their heart and soul and when they go-fc a hold of a number they had

^*,f-

it. If there was any changes to 'be made, well they made it theirself.t * *

[if?] they want -bo make variations on their horns, well, they'd work on

tha-fcj see how it is gonna fi-b i-b. If it didntt work right, well, they'dA

just leave It out." JW got his 4/4 [style] leaf from Zutty [Singleton],

whom he Imew from about 1917. Dodds played mos-bl-y in a two beat style then,

but Singleton played the style called "Memphis time" [BM uses phrase, "Memphis

Time" first]. When the Lewis "band was playing In New York at Child'st

Paramount [Cafe], JW met Singleton, who cocunented that JWTs style was similar

to his own; JW -bold him he had got the style mostly from him. "Black Happy"

Golds-bon, who played with Papa Celestln In the For-fcies, was another good

drmnmer. He played a lot. of two beat also.

JW had played snare drum on -three parades: One nigh-fc parade for the

Bulls Club, a funeral and a Carnival parade, the last he played-^' he didn't

like the walking.

George Guesnon [banjo] came into the Lewis band when Marrero became ill;

Guesnon joined the band in ©Bston; the Tsand went to Child's Paramount, in

New York, and Guesnon finished his tenure with -the band upon completion of

that engagement [unclear]; G-uesnon was on the Blue Note recordings of the band.

JWTs favorite trampet player of "authentic" jazz -was Herb Morand. [Etmer]

"Coo Coo" Talbert had been a trumpe-b player long before he joined -the Lewis

band at Mannie's Tavernj ET would even sing withou-fc the aid of a microphone

on advertising truckSj Talbert was the trumpe-fcer on the first recordings JW

JOE WATKICTS 8II [of 33"Bigest--Re-typedJanuary 20j 1961

ever made, the Lewis session for Good Time Jazz ("Wlllie the Weeper", "Yaaka

Hula, Hickey Dula", "MajEa Don'-fc :Low" and "Burgundy Street Blues"). [CheckJ

Paradox date] The Lewis recordings for Paradox Jazz Man and Antone, wi-fch+

JW, are mentioned. JWTs drumming style remained the same, regardless of who

the trumpet player In the t^and was. JW plays drums left-handed because that

is the way he learnedj as he is naturally lef-b-handed. JW's term for torn-torn

is "jungle drum." Drummer Alfred Williams is fflen-bloned. JW has only heard

him wi-bh 'brass bands. Single-head snare drums are mentioned; -the snares are

on the underslde' of -the single head. EM says John McMurray used one. [Leading'",

by BM here] (EM- says Dodds follcwed [i.e.j emulated! McMnrray.) The 3ias-t- time

JW sa-w Baby Dodds play was when he sat in for J at the Hunt Club, in Chicago;

Dodds was ill a-fc the time (and until h.Ss death); he could play fast numbers,

but his wrist control had deteriorated and he couldn't play slow numbers very-

well. JW says Doddsts style was always the' same. [Compare records). Minor Hall,

ex-member of Kid Oryts band, and now deceased, was a fine drummer^ he used a

high hat; he used a slow press roll; JW heard him in Los Angeles, did not know

him in New Orleans*

According to JWj his first professional job was wl-bh George Lewis, although

he got paid In his earlier years of playing; he explains, saying that the pay

wasn't much. GL's popularity increased during J 's tenure. The only -thing

JW changed for Lewis was to sl-t higher, so that he could get more volume from

his bass drum. In 1946 he Bvi-fcched to a high stool from any otdinary chair that

was used by old-time druusmers. This was less tiring.

JW's las-fc jo'b before his illness was in ChlcagOj Oc-fcober, I960, with the

Lewis band; -the Lewis band had few- jobs in 1960; he hopes to be playing again

JOE WATKINS 9II [of 3]-Digest-RetypedJanuary 20, 196l

soon, and will rejoin the Lewis T^and^ the only differences in personnel -willf

occur because some of -bhe older members, glow Drag Pavageau and Jim Robinson,.t.

don't want to travel. JW says that Joe RoMchaux is really a -wonderful modern

piano player, "but he doesn't have the feeling that a honky tonk piano player

(e.g,,Purnell) has.

Kid Howard had "been playing with the Lewis band prior to the European

trip, but had been out for a while when the trip came up; he was brought back

in for the trip.

End of Reel II

JQE VATKIBJSTH To?"3T:-Digest--Re-byT?ed Also present: Barry Martyn 10

January 20j 1961 Richard B. Alien

JW played only a couple of jobs with Andy Anderson [trumpet] (in the Lewis

"band) before Anderson joined the T^and for the trip [Cincj.nnatl he.

f

replaced Kid Howard a couple of times when the band played at the Paddock

(Lounge, New Orleans]- He also played .on a jo'b in the Nxrrfch Ward. The only

-time JW -worked -with [Waldron] "Prog" (Joseph, trom'bone] was on the Cinclnnatii

trip just men-bioned; hcwever, JW says he did -work -with him one time before, at

the Old Absinthe House on Carnival Day, 1960. RBA asks-if AA and W "F"J

didn't play at the El Moracco [with the Lewis band]* [They did according to my

memory. RBAL JW worked several times with Percy Humphrey [trumpet], Percy

played some with the band at Mannle's Tavern and o-bher jobs, but the first time

JW ever played wi-fch him was in Biloxi [in the Twenties, see Reel IIj -fchis

interview], with Bud Rousselj Percy's brother. Earl [Humphrey]j was on -brombone.

Herb Morand may- have substituted for [Elmer] "Coo Coo" [Talberfc ] at -the

El Morocco. [Correct. First Talbert, then Morandj then Humphrey on this jo'b

(with AA at some poln-b)KBA]. JW played with [Eeorge] "Kid Sheik" [Colar,

trumpet,} in the "band, a-b a couple of yard par'bies (during the Forties)^ at

Mannle's a few times, and at a few other casual jobs with the Lewis band.

JWts father sang bass in a tsartDershop quar'fcetj in the early years of

-the Twentieth century; he was considered one of the best in the Third Ward.

JW's first ins'fcrument actually was piano; his mother had one; he had a cousin,

a good pianist., who tried -bo -beach him, but his interest was in playing drums.

He banged around on pans, walls, etc., with chair rungs when he was young,.

but because of family finances, couldn't get a drum set until "the early

Twenties, when he got his firs-b set and taught himself hcfw -bo play. When he

was "fcwenty-one years old, he was taking lessons from Henry Martin, and in the

11JOE WATKICTSIll [of 3]--Digees-fc"RetyT?edJanuary 20, 196l

late Twenties, he -book a few lessons from Paul Barbarin. JW quit playing for

a long time [see Reel l]. JW says the hardest part of drumming is learning the\.

press roll. The pifmist cousinjof JW is called "Feece" [spelling?]; he playedmostly for his own en-bertainmen-b; he didn's read, he played [what JW calls]

ragtime." The only thing JW can remember that he played was "train effects"If

[a type of boogie woogie?], which he did perfectly #

JWTs father was named Francis Watkins. JW himself didn't begin singing

until he joined the Lewis band. In 19^6. The father sang the old songs of

his day: ["Swee-b Emaline", "My Gal [Sal? ]?"], "Sweet Adeline1 [In o-fcher words,

the popular -tunes of that time--PRC].

JW remembers [Eddie] "Face-0" [Woods], drummerj who played with various

(but with none in par-bicular) 'bands from the Third Ward, where he was from *

Two Bits" also played with various bands. He -was short and thin, on theII

order of George Lewis--same color and all.

The music around Perdido Street and the nruLsic up in Carroll-fcon was

what was called the same--"ragtime" masic. JWls uncle, Johnny St. Cyr, worked

with some "band (four pieces) In the Carrollton section, playing guitar;

St. Cyr, worked with banjo iQtla-fc^r^yedrs, about -the time he went -with Louis

Armstrong [middle Twenties]. RBA and JW bemoan the fact that men like St. Cyr,

who has worked with Jelly Roll Morton, King Oliver, others, don't get much

music work; St. Cyr works days as a plasterer, although he does work Friday,

Saturday and Sunday nights in Los Angelesj playing music. Sometimes St. Cyr,

Alton [Parnell] and Buddy Burns, all of whom usually work at separate places,

get together on a music job.

12JOE WATKINSIll [of 3]-Diges-t--Re-bypedJanuary 20, 196l

Other than Bunk Johnson, the only people JW remembers as having Tseen^

II

playing around Perdido Street when he was a boy were Louis Armstrong, "RedHappy" [Bolton] and an unnamed pianist; they played every Saturday night a-fc

a honky tonk on -the dcMntown-river corner of Perdldo and Franklin [now Loyola].Armstrong was driving a coal dump cart during the day; JW thinks the time was

af-ber Armstrong got out of Jones [Waits*s] Home.

At one time, when JW was a "bellhop" in a saloon In the District, there

were several -bands working In the District, not at houses, but at the cabarets

such as Pete Lala's, Rice Cafe (iber^llle and Marais), Tom Andersen's- fa.bou-fc

four or five places had bands. Lulu White had only a pianist. Henry Martin,

drummer, used to work with (he thinks) Peter Bocage, a-b Rice Cafe. Bocage was

playing the comet then »

ays the spirit of a band is different [for the better] when playingJWs

for dancing as opposed to playing for a seated audience; night clubs don*-thave space for dancing anymore, but JW remarks about the time (1953 or 1954)when the Lewis band, managed then -by Nick Gagllano, played at i^he Silver

Slipper [actually called Club Slipper, later, Dream Boom; now, Your Father'sMustache-1965], where there was space for dancers. Gene Mayl's T^and [Dayton

Rhythm Kings] followed the Lewis band into the place; RBA says the D-RK floppedat the Slipper and made a hit at the [New Orleans Jazz Club] concert.

The firs-fc band JW played with had in it Foster [trombone] and Dude [trumpe-blj

Lewis, Bud Roussel, ^say, [Clarence] "Little Dad" [Vincent], [banjo or guitar]"Yellow", [ ?] and (he thinks) "Little Arthur" (not DerMgny) on sax.

(It is mentioned that Elmer TaTLbert has a bro-fcher who is a-dentist in theJackson-Bryades area.) When JW played with Herb Morand, the other members were

JOE WATKINS 13Ill [of 3]-Digest--RetypedJanuary 20j 1961

Walter Nelson [guitar]; Simon Frazier (relative of Lawrence Marrero), piano;

Alfred tenor sax*? /9.

JW is a Baptist. He learned the hymns and spirituals he sings from

George Lewis, who Imows more im.imbers than any man JW has ever Imown.

JW knew Philip "Cripple Pllln Coycault;, clarinetist, who worked a few

-times -with the band at the Silver Star, until the place was raided. Someone

otsjected All the music lans--"Slew Drag" [Pavageau] [bass] Coycault,. < .

Eddie Morris, [trombone,] Morandj JW and a pianist--were taken in-fco custody;

Coycaul-b was released immediately, as -was Pavageau, -who Imew the brother of

former mayor [Ro'bert] Maestri? the others were released on 'ball provided by

gene 111.

There -was no music taught in school when JW was a student; he attended

Fisk (which was at the corner of Franklin and Perdido) and McDonogh 24* Henry

Martin's mother took care [was principal?] of -the Fisk school. JW -wen-b as

far as the fifth grade, Tsu-b was truantj so his mo-fcher got him out and he went

to work. Henry Martin had a brother, "Coochie", who played piano, and two

sisters; JW thinks the mother and the sisters are still living.

JW went to school at ?isk -with [Louis] "Kid Sho-fcs" [Madlson[ (who was then

called "Toodle-um") and one of Madison's cousins, a banjo player named Harold *

Harold did -work at Mama Lou's, on the lake.

JW saw mostly vaudeville at -fche old Lyric Theater, which had formerly T^een

named the Greenwald [Check spelling] There -was burlesque at the Dauphine. The

lyric, at Burgundy and Ibervlllej -was on a site now occupied by a parking lot.

John Ro'bichaux^ left-handed vlollnist and uncle of a pianist Joe RoMchaux;, was

JOE WATKINS 14

Ill [of 3]--Digest--RetypedJanuary 20, 196l

the leader of the band at the Lyric. JW mentions tha-b the father of Joe

Robichaux played trombone years ago, JW was told that -when he was In Chicago,

bu-b t]?e s.ather dldn*t men-fcion any bands [The father didnrt play un-til he moved

to Chicago-see Joe RoMchaux in-fcerview--PRC ]. (JW dldn*t know Zutty Singleton

until JW was seventeen years old.) The only memloers of the Lyric band known to

JW were "Black Benny" [Williams, drums], "Red Happy" [Bol-fcon, drums, but not at

the same time as Williams] and [Andrew] Kimballj trumpet. Red Happy was first,

succeeded by Black Benny.

End of Reel III