ii. some impressions of science in china to-day

II. SOME IMPRESSIONS OF SCIENCE IN CHINA TO-DAYAuthor(s): HAROLD THOMPSONSource: Journal of the Royal Society of Arts, Vol. 126, No. 5267 (OCTOBER 1978), pp. 659-668Published by: Royal Society for the Encouragement of Arts, Manufactures and CommerceStable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/41372836 .

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II. SOME IMPRESSIONS OF SCIENCE

IN CHINA TO-DAY

by SIR HAROLD THOMPSON , CBE, FRS Emeritus Professor of Chemistry in the University of Oxfordy

delivered on Monday 22nd May 1978, with Sir James Taylor , MBE, DCL> PhD , DSc, FRIC ,

a Vice-President of the Society , in the Chair

The Chairman: As Foreign Secretary of the Royal Society and President of the International Council of Scientific Unions Sir Harold Thomp- son has had a unique opportunity to study the scientific activity of other countries, including China, and we shall profit from his observation. Sir Harold has had a distinguished career in chemistry, but, surprisingly for an academic, he has also had a distinguished career in a completely non-academic field. In about 1947 my

brother-in-law, who was then Chairman of Sunderland Football Club, told me he had met a young Oxford don at the Football Council who, he said, would go very far indeed. I asked his name, and when I heard it I said, 'Not only will he go far in the football line, but he certainly will go far in the scientific and chemistry line as weir. Both these prophecies have been fulfilled, because as you all know, Sir Harold is Chairman of the Football Association Council.

The following lecture was then delivered .

Soon to not

give done

after this so,

I had talk, for

accepted

it I has wished

always

the that invitation

been I had

my Soon to give this talk, I wished that I had not done so, for it has always been my

practice not to lecture on things that I know nothing about, or at any rate to be sure that my facts are right. Although I have visited China twice, I have not been there in the past eighteen months, during which there have been fundamental changes of policy that are likely to have far-reaching conse- quences in the development of its science and technology. However, the new pattern is already becoming clear, and it is interesting to trace the sequence of changes over the past twenty years.

I first went to China in 1962, 16 years ago, as a member of the first delegation from the Royal Society to the Académica Sinica, its sister Academy, with which it was hoped to develop relations such as exist with other scientific Academies around the world. The visit was a success, and appropriate exchange arrangements were indeed established a year later, when a return delegation came to England. In spite of temporary problems in the late 1960s, they are still flouri- shing to-day, and seem likely now to grow stronger.

There were five of us in that delegation, with specific interests in chemistry, physics, biology, physiology and crystallography, and we visited Universities and research establishments most appropriate to us in Peking, Shanghai and elsewhere. In Peking Uni-

versity at that time there were said to be 11,000 students - perhaps then regarded as the norm for a University - about a quarter of them girls, with some 2,000 teachers. The high staif/student ratio was repeated elsewhere, as it is in China to-day, and certainly struck those of us working in British Uni- versities. Perhaps it was due to the inclusion of administrative politicians in the staff. The equipment for teaching in physics and chemistry was good, although some of the biology laboratories rather resembled taxo- nomie collections for demonstrational use. The libraries were excellent. At Tsing Hua, the engineering university in Peking, much the same applied, and the workshops were well equipped for teaching students. The Agricultural University was primarily a College for training students who would be sent to instruct in the communes, and the teaching or study of genetics, animal or plant breeding was at a fairly elementary level. There appeared to be little, if any, real scientific research in these and other Uni- versities, which confined themselves to teaching and did not aim at advanced research, or to bring the best students to the frontiers of knowledge in their particular fields. There was also a definite emphasis on sociology and politics, and those in the top administrative positions were appointed on a political basis.

The research Institutes of the Academia Sinica created a different impression. Some

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JOURNAL OF THEJROYAL SOCIETY OF ARTS

of them were lively establishments in which many of the younger workers looked promi- sing, although they were feeling their way and had experienced no contact with foreign scientists since the Russians departed some years before. It seemed that once the Aca- demy had allocated government money to these laboratories, it left them to carry on their fundamental research undisturbed, although the topics studied, by name at any rate, indicated their possible future applica- tion in the national economy. Most of the older members in these research laboratories had received training in Europe or the USA, but there seemed to be relatively few men in the middle age group, perhaps due to periods of war and revolution. Certainly the leaders had shown a capacity to select some bright young people from the Universities for research work, and in some cases lectures and an intensive preliminary training were continued in the research Institutes.

In the Physics Institute, Peking, work was being done on atomic and molecular spectroscopy, magnetic properties of metals and alloys, crystallography, low tempera- tures and super-conductivity, and they were beginning to use computers in some of these studies. In the Chemical Institute, Peking, they were exploring the synthesis and con- trolled production of polymers of already known types, and the use of physical methods for the determination of their structure and properties. There were also groups dealing with thermochemistry, crystallography and X-ray diffraction, and with newer techniques involving physical properties such as electron spin resonance. In the Institute for Bio- chemistry and Physiology in Shanghai we saw work of high quality in enzymes, nucleic acids and proteins, plant viruses, and in the Organic Chemistry Institute, Shanghai, there were very active groups working on natural products, organometallic compounds, and numerous other aspects of modern organic chemistry. It was there that a few years later Professor Wang Yu and his colleagues syn- thesized insulin, a remarkable achievement by any standards. The Institute of Metal- lurgy in Shanghai appeared to be making good progress with work on steels and ceramics, metallic coatings, age-hardening and a variety of relevant problems.

In all these places, the themes of research were in principle similar to those in more advanced laboratories outside China, The amount of modern equipment was limited, although they had a few special instruments

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OCTOBER 1978

from Europe, the USA, the Democratic German Republic, and Japan. We were much impressed by the amount of good home-made equipment, sometimes - but not always - using foreign instruments as a model. The research workers were well in- formed about the foreign scientific laboratories. With a few exceptions they were repeating known observations rather than exploring new fields, but a good foundation was being built. As always in China, the young people were intensely interested, at- tentive and appreciative in lectures given by us, which usually continued with questions over several hours. We had a feeling that in science they might be steadily catching up.

My second visit to China was twelve years later, in 1974, when I led another delegation of five sent by the Royal Society. The position of science that we found was markedly changed from that of our earlier visit. This was, of course, mainly due to the Cultural Revolution of 1965/6 and subsequent policies. My first realization that serious trouble lay ahead was, in fact, late in 1965, soon after I became the Foreign Secretary of the Royal Society. The exchange agreement which we had set up with the Chinese Academy of Sciences a few years before was working well, and about thirty bright younger Chinese scientists of high ability were here in Britain, doing research under supervision of distinguished British scientists at centres appropriate to their interests. Within a very short time, they all left abruptly to return home. We were of course a bit puzzled, but there was grave trouble within the Academia Sinica. Chairman Mao had previously written much to emphasize the importance of science as one of the necessary 'modernizations', and Premier Chou En-lai had frequently stressed the importance of science and technology for the future progress of China, and the significance of fundamental scientific research including high energy physics. Indeed, one of Mao's writings was : 'Do not be overawed by what authorities in science say, be willing to challenge their beliefs.' This really has the same implication as the motto of the Royal Society of London, 'Nullius in verba' - do not trust the word of any master without questioning it. But Mao's subtlety was not always appreciated.

A struggle developed in the Academy of Sciences between those who supported Mao and those led by Liu Shao-chi, whose argu- ments were that its scientific research was



OCTOBER 1978

not in line with the country's needs, that titles of Professors and other staff, as well as degrees and examinations, should be aboli- shed; and that scientists should not receive preferentially higher salaries. Kuo Mo- jo, a life-long friend of Chairman Mao, who had long been President of the Academy was now an old man with less influence, but the two Vice-Presidents Professor Chu K'o-chen and Professor Wu Yu-hsun, both of whom visited us here about fifteen years ago, de- fended the progress of science and managed to retain their positions. Yet the Academy was weakened and the work of the 'gang of four' - Wang Hung-wen, Chang Ch'un- chiao, Chiang Ch'ing, and Yao Wen-yxtan - continued to upset the steady progress which we had detected years earlier.

The effects of the Cultural Revolution were, of course, very noticeable in our visits in 1974 to the Universities, Academy research Institutes, and elsewhere. Following the principle of 'combining theory with practice', students and scientific workers were sent to the communes, factories and elsewhere for part of each year. A proper contact between University scientists and industrial laboratories is obviously desirable anywhere, and in recent years has been much stimulated in Britain and elsewhere. Some dialogue is desirable, and indeed occurs. If it is carried, or forced, to excesses it cannot be beneficial to either side. Some of the claims for its successs in China in 1974 seemed to me a little far-fetched. At that time, I met again some of the older workers, Directors of Research Institutes, Professors or leaders in the Universities and other establishments whom I had met and respected in 1962. They had been deprived of their titles, clearly demoted in status, and sometimes sat silent under obvious strain. There had been an attack on élitism and against intellectuals of all kinds. It seemed also that the links between the research Institutes of the Academy of Sciences in Peking and Shanghai and other places had been weakened or become uncertain. National science journals had apparently begun to disappear, although some Institutes were trying to maintain small publications of their own. Most of all, perhaps, in a general way the spirit, morale and intrinsic beliefs among scientific workers had suffered. Attacks on Confucianism were frequent, although we visited a beautiful old Confucian temple in Sian in which they all seemed to take pride, now used for another purpose.

CHINA TO-DAY - II

Our visits to Universities, research Insti- tutes or other places in 1974 always began with a lengthy statement from the Director or Responsible Member describing the general philosophy and policy, much as in 1962. The emphasis and form, however, had now altered so as to emphasize the directives of Cultural Revolution. In the Universities, perhaps most clearly represented by Peking University and the Futan University, Shang- hai, the student members had fallen off greatly, although they were beginning to rise again. At each there were about 2,500 students with rather more 'staff', giving a staff/student ratio which again seemed strangely high. They were said to be still in process of educational reform. There were no admission examinations, students being chosen on the basis of proletarian con- science, physical fitness and intellectual ability, in that order. Some of the University departments had been converted into workshops or small factories - for example in Peking they were making drugs and pharma- ceuticals ; in Futan integrated circuits, light sources and semi-conductors; and in the Shanghai Normal University ion exchange resins. After a course of several years there were no final examinations, and it was said that 'those among the masses will know who are the best students'.

Among the Institutes of the Academy of Sciences, those in Chemistry, Physics, Metal- lurgy, Biochemistry and Physiology seemed to be working along similar lines to those seen in 1962, some doing work of high quality, but most of them seemed to have slowed down, although, as before their knowledge of the current foreign scientific literature was good. The Institute for Aero- nautical Engineering in Peking was really a teaching establishment, and had numerous foreign-made engines for display and study, a wind tunnel and workshops where lathes were made. This Institute, of which Sir Stanley Hooker was some time ago made an honorary Professor, may benefit in the near future from the arrangements being made between China and the Rolls Royce company for the training of people to build one type of engine in a new factory, probably in Sian.

Some of my colleagues have described other research Institutes which they visited at about that time. The Institute of Geo- physics aims to study earthquakes, their possible prediction, and the Earth's crust. There is an extensive network of seismic stations in China. There are new telescopes

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and the possibilities for interesting work in astronomy, if it is properly planned. Some uses of lasers in meteorology were impressive. As regards agriculture, intercropping and multiple cropping had been developed, breeding research had led to the production of new varieties of wheat and rice, and to the better control of pests. There was much good work in medical institutes and teaching hospitals in pharmacology, immunology, gastroenterology and neuromuscular physiology. In all cases, however, my colleagues remarked on the stifling effects of the Cul- tural Revolution. On the other hand, some of the industrial establishments which I visited, especially the tractor factory at Logang, and a shipyard up the Wang Po from Shanghai, seemed to be making real progress.

At any rate, the situation around 1974 as regards the China Academy of Sciences and science itself seemed unstable and uncertain, and the events of 1976/7 were therefore not altogether unexpected. In October 1976 the 'gang of four* were arrested. Chiang Ch'ing was often regarded as the leader and creator of the Cultural Revolution, but all had taken part in their own particular ways. The ťgang of four' had steadily attacked the Academy of Sciences and in 1976 ousted some members of its Council and put in their own nominees. They had attacked the policy enunciated by Chou En-lai in 1972 for strengthening scientific research. Much was recorded in the Report of the Academy of Sciences for 1975. The Academy had pressed for the education of the people and the re-moulding of the intellectuals, and stressed that 'some scientific work was for to-day, and some for tomorrow'. The 'gang of four' criticized examination systems, attacked the intellectuals and sought to ferret out the disciples of Confucius

It is interesting to reflect on the statement made by Chairman Mao in his Four Essays on Philosophy (1957). He wrote :

China needs the service of as many intellectuals as possible for the colossal task of socialist reconstruction. We should trust the intellectuals who are willing to serve the cause of socialism, and should radically improve our relations with them, and help them solve any problems re- quiring solution, so that they can give full play to their talents. Many of our comrades are not good at uniting with intellectuals. They are too crude in dealing with them, lack respect for their work, and interfere in certain matters in scientific and cultural work where interference is unwarranted. We must do away with all short-

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comings .... Some of our young people think that everything ought to be perfect once a socialist society is established and that they should be able to enjoy a happy life, ready-made, without working for it. This is unrealistic. This admonition may indeed be relevant in Britain to-day.

It seems that the ťgang of four' had been active also during the earthquake troubles of 1976 by interfering with relief and rescue work, attacking the Academy and its geo- physical work as having failed. In 1975, Hua Kuo-feng and others had attacked the anti- science policy of the 'gang of four'. Chou En-lai, a year before his death, had classed science and technology with agriculture, industry and defence as one of the four modernizations vital for China's development, and did much to get the support of Chairman Mao. Following the death of Mao, Chiang Ch'ing tried to get control. She managed to get Teng Hsiao-p'ing ousted from high office for having dared to propose the modernization of the economy and of defence, suggested by Chou En-lai at his last public appearance in 1975. Her policy of allowing, or even enabling, Hua Kuo-feng to be put in top office proved disastrous, for soon afterwards the 'gang of four' were arrested and Teng Hsiao-p'ing was brought back by Premier Hua Kuo-feng himself. The consequence was a re-instatement of Teng's plans in the meetings which followed in 1977/78.

Visitors to the Universities in 1977 found them in another transitional stage. They were still operating under the precepts of the Cultural Revolution, but re-planning as fast as they could along the new lines. In Peking, Shanghai and Sian the number of students had increased, in Peking to 7,000 with about 2,700 staff. Examinations for both entry and as a final assessment were being brought back, degrees and titles were about to be restored. There was a high proportion of scientists among the students, and by our standards a good percentage of women.

During the past eighteen months there has been a succession of pronouncements and actions which reverse the policy of the late 60s and early 70s, and point the way to the future development and increase of science and technology in China. Early in 1976, it was announced that a Conference would be held entitled 'Learning from Tachai in Agriculture'. Tachai is famous in China as a model for small communes, where in spite of difficult terrain, extreme ranges



OCTOBER 1978

of temperature, shortage of fertilizers and | other difficulties the Tachai Production Brigade has achieved a remarkable increase in crop yields through terracing, draining and careful cultivation. This large conference was held late in 1976, when - although the main purpose was to exhort all communes to learn from Tachai and work for the same success - Chairman Hua Kuo-feng emphasized the condemnation of the 'gang of four'. Soon afterwards, a similar large Conference was held, on 'Learning from Taching'. Taching is a small village region near Har- bin, where oil was discovered in 1959, and there has been a rapid increase in oil production during recent years. This has its own specific qualities and some is already being exported. It is said the local workers are so enthusiastic that 'production takes precedence over the quality of life' - oil before housing and other comforts. Their aim is to have ten more oil fields of this sort.

In his New Year statement for 1977, Chairman Hua Kuo-feng outlined the new plans for science and technology, and followed in most respects the views which Premier Chou En-lai had expressed in earlier years. He stated that the Chinese research Institutes are of four kinds, namely those (1) under the Academia Sinica, (2) under the Government Ministries and departments, (3) in industry, and (4) in the Universities. He regarded the Academy of Sciences as the most important centre for research and it occupied an autonomous position under the Government. Previously a typical research Institute under the Academy or Government had a Director who was a member of the Party, with other deputy Directors and a few older scientists and younger staff. After the Cultural Revo- lution (1965-9) the control was taken over by a Revolutionary Committee with many junior scientists, and researchers according to the 'three-in-one' principle (in this case scientists, technicians and workers). The new organization after 1977 would probably be much changed. He pointed out that in the past few years much scientific equipment had been purchased from abroad, and it should be used to the maximum advantage.

The nth National Communist Party Congress was held in August 1977, and Chairman Hua again condemned the 'gang of four' - in particular for their anti-science activities - before 1,500 delegates represent- 35 million Party members. Immediately

CHINA TO-DAY - II

afterwards, it was announced that a National Conference on Science would be held in 1978.

Chairman Hua Kuo-feng used the same themes at the 5th National People's Con- gress held in February 1978. After dealing with the work of the Government, the struggle over three years, and the defeat of the 'gang of four', he stressed the need to speed up socialist economic reconstruction, develop socialist science, consolidate political power, and develop proper foreign policy. As regards economic reconstruction, he emphasized the importance of modernization of agriculture, science and technology, the increase of mechanization in agriculture, of automization in industry, and the intro- duction of better transport and communication systems - for all of which better science and technology would be essential. He demanded the development of forestry, animal husbandry, fisheries and heavy industry, said that the scientific and cultural level must be raised, that there must be a vast army of working-class intellectuals. He suggested that under the damaging influence of the 'gang of four' the gap with other countries had widened, and more people should be trained in modern science, in nuclear energy, electronic computers and space science. More teachers should be trained and new textbooks prepared. Litera- ture and art must be encouraged also, more attention should be given to family planning, and broadcasting and television services must be increased. Full scope must be given to the intellectuals. 'The tasks over ten or twenty years are gigantic', he said, 'but the job can be done', and he quoted the well- known saying of Mao Tse-Tung: 'Let a hundred flowers blossom, let a hundred schools of thought contend.' There had therefore been many somewhat repetitious speeches, but all was now well prepared for the big national Conference on Science, which took place in March-April this year. 6,000 people attended. Vice-Premier Teng Hsiao-p'ing, who is now responsible for science and technology policy, made an opening speech marked by political daring and frankness. He called upon the Party to subordinate politics to modernization, and to free scientists from political restraint, so that they could do this modernization. Scientists should be freed from day-to-day control of or by Party committees and have free discussion of academic issues.

Chairman Hua Kuo-feng, while frequently

66 3




referring to principles of Marx and Lenin, supported Teng Hsiao-p'ing and suggested that recent policy had reduced science, culture and education to sterility. He emphasized the need to learn from foreign countries, irrespective of their system, whether in politics, economics, military affairs, technology, literature or art.

It was then left to Vice-President Fang Yi, Director of the State Commission for science and technology, to give details of the ambitious programme for the period 1978-85, and then on to the end of the century. His survey covered many fields varying from the strongly practical to the purely theoretical. They included agriculture, the search for new energy sources, exploration for mineral resources, materials (steel, non- ferrous metals, cement, synthetic fibres), computers, space science, high energy physics, and genetic engineering. He stressed that China lagged behind other major countries, needed to recover at high speed and to increase the number of scientific workers to 800,000 by 1985. There must be new research Institutes, scientific education must be expanded, there must be accelerated pro- motion for brighter students, more scientists should study abroad, and more foreign scientists should come to China. Titles and examinations would be restored, research workers would spend five-sixths of their time at science and their time on political matters would be drastically reduced. The structure and facilities of the laboratories would be improved. Scientific work would be published, and there should be no dis- crimination against those who have held erroneous views. The national scientific Societies should again broaden their activities.

As regards agriculture, Mr. Fang Yi said there must be more work on soils, the pre- vention of erosion, water conservancy, fertilizers, more mechanical farming, use of in- secticides, advances in animal and plant genetics, and in fisheries and forestry. He referred also to the requirements for im- proving transport, communication, the pro- tection of the environment, medicine, the oil industry and petrochemicals, oceano- graphy, hydrolectric power stations, ther- mal power stations (probably in Tibet), and nuclear power stations.

He described the Chinese Academy of Sciences as the overall centre for research in the natural sciences, whose responsibility would be increased and widened; and said

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that this and other scientific departments under the State Council and in the Uni- versities must restore and strengthen the science research Institutes, and the munici- pal bodies must encourage the re-establishment of scientific institutions. There would be new methods for recruiting people into this programme. Methods of education would be modernized, post-graduate training would be strengthened. There will be numerous fundamental changes in the whole system of the Universities and for en- couraging scientific and technical personnel, and for rewarding them for success. There should be free discussion among different schools of science, to uphold truth and to correct mistakes. Science should be popu- larized for the masses.

All of this is, of course, like a very full shopping list of an enthusiast, or a catalogue of all the current fields and operational principles of modern science and technology.

The partem has therefore been laid down. The task will be enormous. It will prove either to be a dream, a pious hope, or lead to a very great achievement. Certainly to accom- plish all, and bring China twenty years hence to the top level will be a remarkable performance, and it is to be hoped that if during the next few years progress seems to be relatively slow, this will not again lead to dissatisfaction and a new reversal of policy. As Lord Bessborough said in a House of Lords debate last November, the Chinese people are now entering upon a new stage in their development under Chairman Hua Kuo-feng. Keenness to get on and do well, we are told, has already led to some cheating in the University entrance examinations that have started. The potential of the Chinese people - now numbering, we are told, one billion - is enormous. In spite of the great task, no one who has seen their unity of purpose will deny the possibility of success. If by the end of this century, the task has been achieved, our Chinese colleagues may be able to recall the words of the poet Li Po : ťWhen the harvest is golden, and the home brew is ready, Let us drink and be thankful.'

I am grateful to the People's Daily > the Peking Review , and the New China News Agency for much information used in this lecture, and to a number of my scientific colleagues for reports and discussions on their recent visits to China.



OCTOBER 1978 CHINA TO-DAY - II

DISCUSSION Dr. Gordon Miller (University of London): Some four years ago I visited China for about three weeks, and one of the things that I par- ticularly appreciated was the impression that in China small is beautiful; in other words that small enterprises were emphasized. I thought perhaps China had got something that we had lost since our enormous enterprises, especially our state enterprises, have become so inefficient. I am not completely sure that 'small is beautiful' is a perfect concept, but I am quite sure that 'large is not usually beautiful'. Would the speaker care to comment on this - where he sees the Chinese going: (a) how far might they go, and (b) how far is it desirable to go ?

The Lecturer: Yes, I agree with your philosophy, very much so, and I read Schu- macher's book. But the question you ask is complex. If China is going to catch up econo- mically it will have to import, as the lecturer said last week, 'know-how' from abroad, from Western Europe perhaps. And that really will mean surely that they are going to have rapidly built factories and so on. That I see as absolutely essential if they are going to have a chance of catching up in reasonable time. Of course, if they are clever, I should very much hope they are wise enough to keep a lot of small enterprises which we have destroyed to our cost. I can't really say more than that.

Professor K. Mellanby: I have not been to China for more than thirty years, but I recently visited South Korea and Taiwan, and I found it interesting to compare conditions there with what is described by the Lecturer. But my wife went to China mainland last October, and her description of present conditions was similar to his. She related how, when walking in a park in Peking one evening, she heard ribald laughter coming from a popular entertainment. The actors were three men and a woman, pretending to be night-soil collectors - of course, once more the 'gang of four' !

I should like to ask a question about agriculture. Many people in Britain who are worried about developments in our farming believe, rightly or wrongly, that China has a lesson for us. They see that in China farming is both labour-intensive and very productive, two things that seldom go hand in hand in other countries. They regard this as a possible solution of two world problems, food production and unemployment. On the other hand, as the Lecturer has shown, there is a move to mechanize farming in China. This will be a great dis- appointment to some people in Western countries, who think it will not necessarily produce the results the Chinese Government intends. In China there is a vast amount of labour available, so mechanization of agriculture might be counterproductive.

The Lecturer: The sheer number of people there are is bad for mechanization, and to that extent what you say is true. I have been to two communes and I was impressed by both. Of course they were somewhat primitive, but I remember at one commune they said, 'Chairman Mao was here, and ever since he came we have done much better, we have multiplied production'. I said, 'What did he tell you?'. They replied, 'He told us not to grow wheat in that field every year, and not to grow turnips in that one, and so on'. What it amounted to was that Chairman Mao had told them about the rotation of crops, which after all is not a new idea, but it of course had worked, and they had been very impressed. Mechanization is a double-edged thing with large numbers, but I think they are going to have to do it.

Mr. Anthony R. Michaelis: Sir Harold mentioned that the aim was to have eight hundred thousand scientists by 1985, and in a population of nearly a thousand million I think this is about one scientist per thousand people. Does he happen to know the figures in this country by any chance and how they compare ? Or the figures in America ?

The Lecturer: I don't know. The only thing I think I can say is that the Chinese figures allow for a fantastic increase in a short time.

Dr. Anthony Butler (Department of Chemistry, University of St. Andrews) : In view of the enormous economic difficulties in China does Sir Harold think they should use their limited resources on pure basic research ? Would it not be better to turn their resources to applied science ?

The Lecturer: China, in order to catch up quick, is putting a great emphasis on applied science, but they are far too wise to stop research. I should think they will improve the quality of the fundamental research they are doing in the next ten years considerably, but the emphasis is clearly going to have to be on the achievement of technological advance as quickly as possible.

Dr. D. M. Conning, mb, bs (British Industrial Biological Research Association) : Has Sir Harold any experience in the field of medical science in China ?

The Lecturer: I have medical colleagues who have been on visits to China and I have read reports of Royal Society Fellows who have been. In recent years there was a full medical delegation from the Royal Society and I believe that another one is going this year. One can never get a straight answer out of our medical people about acupuncture or anything else. Everybody is enormously impressed, not by the pure medicine in China but by the things related to pure medicine and by the Shanghai Institute of

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Bio-Chemistry and Physiology, which is out- standingly good. The reports I have read give the impression of some quite good work in the medical field in the laboratories and hospitals in Peking and elsewhere. They have some in- dividuals who are quite distinguished; a cancer specialist was here in the last two weeks. But I am not qualified to talk to you in a professional way on medical matters.

Miss Maysie Webb (The British Museum): Can the Lecturer say whether western scientists are able to keep up to date in their knowledge of Chinese scientific developments, either by direct contact or by monitoring the literature ? Also, is it known whether scientific papers are subjected to a refereeing system ?

The Lecturer: I think things went fairly well until about 19655 and then we were ex- changing young scientists. The Cultural Revolu- tion stopped this and there was evidence that the national scientific publications had been stopped. In one or two instances, as I said, they were just making their own little collection of papers for local distribution. They were then forbidden to have contact meetings between Shanghai laboratories and Peking laboratories, and journals stopped. I am not sure whether they have started to have internal meetings again or not, but the Chinese journals have started again. And there is every indication that they will get stronger. As for the refereeing system, I guess that before 1965 there was some degree of it, but I don't know the details.

Dr. G. B. R. Feilden, cbe, frs: I had the honour of going to China in another Royal Society delegation a little after Sir Harold's second one, in March 1975 with Professor R. V. Jones and Dr. Henton Morrogh. We covered a similar route. Sir Harold hinted at the discipline which he saw everywhere. One of the things that struck us was the absence of any sort of frater- nization between young boys and girls, men and women, because of the very strict control on marriage. No man may marry until he is twenty- eight, or girl until she is twenty-five. One may ask, how can that degree of control ever be applied in a modern state ? The answer is that it is done primarily through the street committee and their very strong monitoring of every activity of the people in their area. That facet of Chinese life, I felt, was almost like Orwell's vision of 1984. There were, however, very many things on

the positive side. One saw a vast nation raising itself by its boot straps. Medieval agriculture, rows of men and women tilling the fields by hand, without a draught animal in sight, let alone a tractor, were the order of the day in the communes we visited. It will be fascinating to see whether this great country with its considerable natural resources, more of which are being discovered all the time, can compete against the moving tide of the West, where things are going

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ahead all the time. I don't know whether Sir Harold would care to comment any further on this aspect which he did touch on in his talk.

The Lecturer: I have a tremendous respect for the intrinsic ability that there is in China. I think also, however, that they realize that they have got to import a terrific amount of know-how. As Lord Bessborough said last week, that may be simplified if it is done on an exchange basis because there are so many mineral resources in China that we could make use of, and there are all kinds of ways in which this can be done.

Mr. A. R. Cooper, cbe: In their rapid technological development the Chinese will have to work in harmony with the rest of the world, but there are some fundamental differences about which choices will have to be made. In their electrical development, for example, are they standardizing on fifty cycles or sixty cycles ? If it is sixty they will follow American practice and will tend to buy American machinery and be influenced by American practice. If it is fifty they will be in line with European practice and they will work in technological and industrial growth in harmony with Europe, including Great Britain. We began in a small way with fifty cycle development in Saudi Arabia but the American marketing teams were smart enough and quick enough to over-ride us and get sixty cycles adopted as standard. This could expand to cover the whole of the Middle East. Is the same sort of thing going to happen in China ? There is no half way house in this matter so far as electricity supply is concerned, they will have to choose between American and European standards. There is the strongest possible case for mounting a major marketing expeditionary force which will saturate the Chinese electricity supply people with fifty cycle thinking to such an extent that it will be adopted as the national standard. The starting date for this exercise is yesterday for it can have such a significant bearing on our future export development. 'Somebody' to coin a phrase ťought to be doing something about it', now. And British industry should be setting the pace.

The Lecturer: I will ask Dr. Feilden to answer these questions.

Dr. Feilden: They are nearly all fifty cycle networks, except for a few local distribution systems of American origin which are sixty cycle or sixty Hz as one should say to-day. I understand that the policy of the Chinese government is to standardize on fifty Hz for new installations, so aligning itself with the practice in Europe and most of the rest of the world, apart from North America.

Dr. A. Robertson: I should just like to reassure a previous speaker that in fact when you get up country and out of the cities young men and women do hold hands !



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We have a situation in which a hundred flowers were encouraged to bloom and in fact when they did they were all decapitated. This unquestionably has very much inhibited the normal questioning processes of good quality science. Even now I think the average Chinese would consider it a hazardous process to question establishment thinking. If really high quality research is to come through, we have got to wait a fairly long time I suspect before we get the kind of relaxed atmosphere in which the young people challenge the dogma of the old.

The Lecturer: There is a lot in what you say. I gave a talk to a group of, I suppose, about fifteen youngish people. It was in the Peking Hotel in a private room. This was four years ago and the talk was on Photo electron spectroscopy, which was a very young subject then. They grilled me with questions as I hadn't been grilled for years, on a subject I thought I knew something about. They were impressive. I shouldn't be too pessimistic about it.

Dr. Robertson: I have noticed quite a big change. If you were making a presentation three or four years ago very little discussion took place there and then, but you would be button-holed outside. Whereas when I was there a few weeks ago I found a great deal more general questioning. Unquestionably, whatever the reality of the 'gang of four', there has been a great liberaliza- tion over these last few years.

The Lecturer: Everything seems to have happened in the last eighteen months. The Revolution did inhibit a lot of people; a lot of them were frightened to open their mouths.

Mr. Robin Trew: During the recent National Science conference in China new emphasis was placed on the need to popularize science. Sir Harold has told us a bit about scientific research in China. Was he able during his visit to see how much importance was attached to the need to popularize scientific knowledge and to raise the level of scientific education at the low levels, in the middle schools for example ? And was he able to see how this type of work was done, the methods used ?

The Lecturer: I don't know the answer. I don't think there was a wish to popularize science five or ten years ago. In view of current trends we must wait and see. They have opened the door and there are plenty of people entering by it.

Mrs. M. M. Sibthorp, obe: Sir Harold says that the Chinese are wise. Are they wise enough to be selective in the process of indus- trialization or in the mechanization of their agriculture? We have made such a lot of mistakes in that field. Will they learn from us, or will they, as the western world has so often done, simply repeat the same mistakes ?

The Lecturer: It is anybody's guess. I should think that they are intrinsically at least as

china to-day - II

wise as the Japanese, and they haven't copied the mistakes of other people. I think that the Chinese will be careful to buy what is good from abroad.

Mr. William Tollett (Burrell Colours Ltd.) : I am very interested in the development of industrially based scientific co-operation with China. In his talk Sir Harold mentioned the collaboration with Rolls Royce and firms of this sort. It seems to me that we have to read into the current Chinese situation a tremendous change in political will over the past year or so. Can Sir Harold put a time scale on when it will be relatively easy to collaborate with the Chinese in industrial science ?

The Lecturer: It will take some years to develop relationships of the kind we have with countries in Western Europe. But I am sure the Chinese are now far more ready to receive people to talk about trade relations. There has been a Chinese delegation in this country, I should guess, every fortnight now for six months ; they seem to come faster than one can meet them.

Brigadier John Constant: I have met two in the last fortnight.

The Lecturer: I think the chances of Europe wanting to do something and the chances of its actually doing it are really considerable. The body to get in touch with to find out the contacts is the Sino-British Trade Council at Queen Anne's Gate.

Brigadier John Constant: Can I say one more word in answer to a question that was asked previously about measurement ? The Chinese are of course completely metric, but I think they have possibly got a lesson for us in this, because they have also managed, not for science but for normal domestic living, to hang on to their old measures as well, but by altering them to fit the metric system. As if (here) we said, 4 Yes, the metre is our unit of measurement but we often talk about feet, so the foot will be one third of a metre'. Or with the famous 'pinta' - that would be half a litre. And so the Chinese can manage to use their tradi- tional weights and measures, but they are not quite what they were.

A Member of the Audience: One of the strengths of the Chinese just after the war was the number of people who had been trained overseas. As I understand the situation, that hasn't been possible for quite some time. It is one thing to send over a delegation, but one doesn't really learn an awful lot from a delegation. To what extent does the Lecturer think that in this new phase the Chinese will permit their students to work overseas for five or ten years ?

The Lecturer: They say they are going to allow it. In 1965 we had, I think, thirty-eight young Chinese students working on an exchange arrangement with the Royal Society. A lot of

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them were very skilful and their supervisors here gave excellent reports on their work. Then in December 1965 they were all whisked off. I suppose they were frightened at what was going to happen if they didn't return; they might be eliminated. There is every indication now that China is going to send more students. I don't know if there is anybody here from the Royal Society who can tell us how many we have over here at the moment, but a scheme has been started again. When we set up this exchange with China in 1963 they were really quite frank. They admitted that there was nothing in China to induce a bright young Englishman to work there for a year unless he simply wanted the culture and to learn the Chinese language. Well, a scientist can't waste a year at that stage of his

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life, fascinating as it would be, so we said we should send older people, senior scientists on short visits, not young people on long ones. Now things have changed because they are going to send more people and there will soon be places where an Englishman can go for scientific pur- poses. And the senior members have been going both ways. We had a group of people here a couple of months ago, interested in the corrosion of metals. None of them was a technologist; they were all pure scientists, which is interesting.

There being no further questions , the Chairman proposed a vote of thanks to the Lecturer , and the meeting closed with the usual expressions of appreciation .

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ii. some impressions of science in china to-day

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