idriess interview with tim bowden

8/7/2019 idriess interview with tim bowden

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Unedited transcript of Ion Idriess in interview withbroadcaster Tim Bowden, in the early 1970s. Madeavailable with the kind permission of Tim Bowden.

Tim: Mr. Idriess what was the first book that you wrote?

I: "Madman's Island".

Tim: How did that come to be written?

I: Oh, an old prospector from Cape York Peninsular and me were in the West-coast pub one day, from the tin fields, and a Malay came in and his schoonerwrecked on a place called Howick Island, and he threw some back stones onthe counter and said, "Here Jacky, are these any good?", and I picked themup and they were specimens of wolfram and tin and I said, "Yes, where didyou get them?", and he explained he was wrecked off Howick Island, andwhen he was waiting there for someone to come and pick him up, he walkedalong the beach and the picked up these black stones, because he'd heard thattin was black and he put them in a sarong and here he was, see.So, me and this fossicker from one of the real savage rivers up the north, wehired a boat and went up there and we landed there and the...we found thelittle reef alright, but worked it out, we got a couple of tons of mixedwolfram and tin out of it before it cut right out because the biggest beacon onHowick Island was only 180 feet high, and then we was worn out.But then it turned out that my cobber had nine feet of his intestines taken out

in London from one of German shells - a war wound, and they patched himup at Guys Hospital and he had to report there every year - write how he wasgetting on, because he had instruments and things that went into a silver tubethat burrowed down right inside, and he had to pour chemicals down thisevery day to flush out the gas Well of course, he'd been so drunk inCooktown he forgot all his gadgets and things...

Tim: He was so drunk in Cooktown he forgot the...

I: Yes...yes, so I thought: "Stone the bloody crows! here am I on this barrenlittle island with this bloke here", poor devil - he died. Well, he went west.He got nuts and swelled up with gas and he went crazy, and the onlyweapons we had was his, he had a .22 pea- rifle and he chased me with it -poor devil went nutty.And each time this happened I'd jump across and somehow get across a bigopen space there where the waves and tide used to come and in I'd get amonga heap of rocks and at high tide it was quite safe, and then Charlie....naturewould look after me, he'd get rid of the gas sort of business and then he'd bequite alright - a real good mate.


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But anyway, he got busy and I'd brought up...probably everyone did in thosedays, you always carried a length of fencing wire it was so handy, and weused this wire for hooks for the galley, so he got a hook and he was busythere for a couple of days and I sat by wondering what the hell he was doing,he was twisting it into the shape of this tube thing that had to go into hisinsides. And then we had canvassed in bags?? it was very very strong to holdstream tin and he sold this tin round and round in the shape of this wire andwhen he pulled the wire out he had this winding sort of tube which hegradually poked down the silver tube in his inside so it went to good knowswhere, right away down in his innards...he was a grim-looking, tall, dark,sour-looking bloke, especially when the poor devil was filling up with gas, anarky old bloke he was then, real good mate otherwise though.So, out in our tiny little bay which was only a little bit bigger than this roomhere, walled in by the coral reef was one huge boat it used to be two feetabove the water at high tide.

Tim: This was the well is it?

I: No, not the well, this was our bay - "our harbour" we called it, it was onlyabout the size...say, twice the size of this room, hedged in with this coral reef from the open sea. So he took our billy-can and he lay out there sprawled outand he made a funnel out of a jam tin and he put the funnel in the mouth of this tube and then he poured sea-water...instead of the bottle of chemicals hehad, he poured that down his insides and gradually he got of this gas afterabout three or four hours, his belly went down and down and down. I usedto...sitting there smoking on the beach singing "My God what a beautiful bait he'd make for a big fish", poor beggar.Then to see it go down because he'd be after me with the rifle again when

he got...anyway, he got on alright from then but he used to have to do it dailywith the damned water sort of thing...we was there for seven months before aJapanese pearling boat came along and took us - it took me off, he wouldn'tgo, he growled then: "What the hell has the world ever done for me? I'm notinterested in this bloody world, you can go back to your bloody civilization".So I said: "Right-o, you growly old cow".So I swam out to the Japanese, they met me, but it was a very dangerousplace there so they stood off and sent a boat to pick me up and they wasgoing to Cooktown to land me in Cooktown. So, I told the police the oldbloke wouldn't come down, They went up for him, he wouldn't leave for thepolice, he told them same yarn, "What's the world done for me? To hell withthe world!".

Tim: Did they give him his tube in the...?

I: They had brought his stuff up, I said: "He mightn't come for you". All we hadto live on when the tucker gave out was fish - you see, in the big mangroveswamp that was there, when the tide would come fish of all sorts would comepouring in, and a lot of them would stop there when the tide went out andwe'd only just walk along over the mangrove roots and you could see these


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damned fish under your feet - you see, and they couldn't get away they'dhave to wait for the next tide, and there was plenty of tucker in there andthey'd swim out to sea with full bellies, but both of us knew - being amongthe natives a lot - we could spear fish as well as they could, so we madethese...we fished with prongs made out of these bits of wire, made four-pronged fish spears and we could get them alright, anyone else would starvebecause you couldn't see them with the reflection of the water - wouldn'tknow where to look for them, and there was huge, big mud crabs - they werebeauties, they had such powerful claws they used to burrow holes inthe...they were just like rabbit burrows, in the solid coral, imagine if they gothold of your claw. Well, I used to like them, they were our meat.We used to have real games of spying, "come and get me" with them becauseyou had to sneak from the back of the mangroves where they'd be sunningthemselves out in front of the burrow waiting for the tide to come in with thesmall fish, and you had to creep down, right at the back of the burrow and getright over them and then prong them with the spear and the bugger now andthen looked back, and if they saw you they'd be...dive for their burrows and itwas a race between you and the old crab, it was who is to get to that burrowfirst, it was life and death believe me, and the crabs knew it too...by cripes!they knew.

Tim: Were there times when you thought you might never get off the island?

I: Oh yes. It was frightfully monotonous, that used to be the worst thing, I usedto sit up on top of this Howick peak waiting and waiting for some damnedpearling lugger to come along and pick us up. And when poor old Charlie,he'd go nutty of course he'd have me then. I'd have to leave my look-out andmake a rush for this big pile of rocks for the tide to save me, otherwise he

used to come after me with his damned little pea-rifle. He could never havegrabbed me of course because this great huge mangrove forest...Oh, itcovered many many acres of ground, but that was...apart, you'd cover thewhole island in ten minutes walk you'd be over every inch of it except forthis enormous mangrove forest, he could never have got but if I'd have totake to the forest, I'd have to hop up one of those mangrove trees with thedamned tide and sharks and all sorts of great groupers coming, rushing inwith the tide, I would have had quite a merry time saving my bloody hide -you see, and being fish food.One day I saw...digging up on our mighty beach which was beach which wasabout 120 feet long I suppose, a piece of paper of all things in the world, so Ilugged it up and this was the log of the "Seafoam" - the Malay's boat that hadgone down, this was his log where he kept all the ship's accounts that you'vegot to have on your boat sort of thing. So I had stuff...an old pencil I alwayscarried, I used to scribble for the Bulletin then in the Abo column, and I satup and listened, I thought, "Damned I'll write what's happening" - a diary,had to put in time, so I did and I filled up his log of the "Seafoam" with this"Madman's Island" thing, never thinking I'd ever have a book published in...Iknew I could write paragraphs but I never dreamt about a whole bloomin'


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book, so when finally I got to Sydney with ?? I had this damned thing withme - you see.But...well anyway, do you want to know about the book?

Tim: I was going to say, how did you come to get the book published?

I: Well, the old bird man I mean, Alec Chisholm...have you heard about AlecChisholm?

Tim: The naturalist?

I: The naturalist, yes. He's a...I suppose he's one of the....

Tim: You were saying about Alec Chisholm the naturalist....

I: Well, he used to be naturally the Bulletin's - all naturalists did those daysbecause when you was in the bush it's continually looking for somethingstrange and naturalised for paragraphs for the "Bulletin" - you see, it wasworth five bob those days, and five bob was money believe me!But anyway, he'd seen about some quaint little hoppy-bird up in thenPeninsular in the beaches there that he didn't recognise so, he could get intouch with me of course but he did with the "Bulletin" he said, "When thismad mad bloke", - why they called me "mad bloke" I don't know but....

Tim: They called you "the mad bloke" did they?

I: Yes...wandering all over the place and the queer things I used to see, whichwas quite true and the quaint stories I'd hear from the natives - particularly

the islanders I'd put into the "Bulletin" and everyone of them was sheer fact -you see, down here - the city - wouldn't believe themyou know, they'd liketo read them but everything I put in there was fact...but anyway he...when hewent to the "Bulletin" he naturally knew all the pressmen, he was a pressmanhimself - you know, he was one of the editors of the old "Telegraph" .And, "...when he comes down will you give him this letter and tell him willhe please come to me. Now come and tell me about this bird will you?". Sowhen I went down with a ?? to have a bit of a holiday down here in the bigsmoke, I went to this "Telegraph" office and here was this greater war-lord of literature - whatever you called them in those days, a real life bloomin' editorwith his great big polished table and here was me..."up in the Daintree", he

used to call me "the wild man from Borneo".So I told him about his blasted bird. He said: "You ought to write a book".I said: "I have written a book". You know, I never really meant it like that atall.He said: "Where is it?".I said, "Here", and I pulled out this damned old scraggy thing you see...

Tim: This is the log of the "Seafoam".


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I: The log of the "Seafoam", and he ?? "Here come with me", so he picked uphis hat, and I didn't know what he was going or what he meant, but hegrabbed me by the arm and I followed him and we crossed the road and wewent to a place called Angus and Robertson's and he took me up the stairsand there was a great big bloke up there with big black whiskers - which wasvery unusual in those days - and a very distrustful, rather humorous,suspicious look on his face - sort of a bloke, and an old lady which was oldBess with a big grin apparently she was the boss of all the girl in my ??Anyway, ?? and so the bird-man with all his authority and ?? "Here, here'syour great Australian novel", it wasn't a novel it was true stuff. It took me along time to learn this that true stuff was just ?? you see? and so the oldbloke just looked me and just winked, looked me up and down and said,"Hmm", so I looked at him "Bugger you!" I thought..."You bloody cityshyster, so tell me about it".So, just a man who said, "Here it is. He is ??" so I had to tell him about it,and what he said - Chisholm...see if I can remember the exact words, he said,"Well, he's got a bloody powerful imagination anyway", and I says, "It's alltrue!"."Oh - he said - yeah....How many years is it? hundreds and hundreds sincethe first bard told that to the first bloody publisher". I was staggered, Icouldn't understand blokes down here not understanding ordinary thingshappened, they used to happen all over the place in the bush and the coast inthose days - all sorts of things like that.So anyway, I went away and left the damned thing with him, I was to comeback and he said, "I'll read this at home - he said - for all the good it'll dome". When I came back the next day with Chisholm when we went over, hequestioned me about the thing again and he said to Chisholm, "Well, he hasgot a wonderful imagination - a wonderful bloody liar", that made me a bit

cranky - you see, the cheek of...anyway, I had a bit of an argument with him,he just stood there and grinned, he said, "It's so unusual - he said - I mightthink about publishing it", and of course, Chisholm said, "Yes, you're 'suchand such' a fool if you don't, a bigger fool than even I thought you were",which was something to say for even a...any?? the one and only and biggestpublisher Australia has ever known up to date.Well anyway, to cut a long story short, he said: "Well now, take this toyour...where you're living?". So I got a room out at Paddo, he said, "Well,write this out taking care, but there's one thing, I'll only take in...no book inAustralia will ever sell without a woman interest - there's got to be a womanin it".I said: "There wasn't a black gin within hundreds of miles".He said: "I mean, a lovely white heroine, a nice young girl. Could you...couldyou? I don't imagine you would ever write a love story, but have a try. Sayjust enough so the publisher can at least say there is some feminine interestin it".I said: "Struth! a woman would spoil the whole damned story".He said: "No, it won't. There'll be no blasted story if you don't put a womanin it. Make a love scene somewhere".I said: "Ah! stone the crows!".


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Well, I tell you wouldn't hear it, I was taking knicki-knick tobacco?? wasonly love story I know, you better not put that in I suppose, that a....

Tim: What would have old Charlie have thought of a white woman arrivingon the island?

I: Oh...Oh, I could just imagine it would be one long growl, and he'd spit, hewouldn't even consign to waste a word or two or a sentence over it.Well anyway, they're standing me up very much to actually get a bloodything published I thought, "Christ, this is a funny experience". So I thoughtout a bloody love story for it at last, very much against my will, brought itand he bloody-well accepted it. So I thought, "Poor bugger! I do hope youdon't lose on it". Mind, I will send 30 to a bloody publisher - a bloodystruggling writer you could say at that time, glad to get a five bob write ??upin the Bulletin, and here I was thinking, "Poor publisher, he's losing moneyon this...", By Jesus! I learnt very different as the years went on. I learnt thatpublishers can look after themselves.

Tim: After some 50 books I dare-say....

I: Anyway, I went to go on back to Thursday Island then and out around someof the islands in Torres Straits, it always fascinated me the people up there,and after...Oh, I don't know, about a couple of years later I goes down, I'dheard the book was out but it'd done no good though, they wrote to me sorryto say, quite a nice letter, not what I thought he would have said, and I wasreal sorry for this poor publisher....

Tim: Poor publisher having a failed book, yes....

I: ...having a failed book. It was quite a big failure and he said: "We sold outthe lot of remainders to Anthony Hordens" - or something.I said: "Oh, poor devil"."Oh - he said - they'll get rid of it. They'll get rid of it somehow, sell it for afew pence"..."a few pence!", and I imagine he must've lost a bloody fortuneon it. So I sneaked into Anthony Hordens to at least have a look, so I foundwhere the the sales department, where the big book's department and peepedin from the doorway, and the first thing that saw my eyes was a great longrow about 4 feet high of ?? "Madman Island" - sixpence each! Oh, Christ! Icould have cried for the poor publishers. Oh gee whiz! I really did feel awful

as if I'd let him down you see...I haven't got a bloody sixpence out of themnaturally.So, I saw a rather nice-looking chap up there - turned out to be Frank Fenton,he was a friend of mine for as long he lived afterwards...Gees, he was a nicechap, that was the manager that was just building up Anthony Hordens book department there, so I very timidly went over and made myself noticed..."Ohthis book - I said - Oh, I'm so sorry but..."."Oh he's alright, he's alright, they're going like hot-cakes".... I thought, "Hot-cakes at sixpence each, what must have old Blackbeard have lost on it? and


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what must this poor crowd lose buying this thing?"...well anyway, to make along story short...some minutes later I come down and then I'd hava a look back and the first book that I'd published wasn't "Lassiter's Last Rights", itwas "Prospecting for Gold", which is selling today. I still ?? from"Prospecting for Gold", and that's semi-technical book.Well anyway, years went by and I wrote six or seven successful books, so thefirm said one day to me...Oh, by this time the old Blackbeard admitted...saidit was me who spoilt that "Madman's Island", it was me who insisted on that"girl stuff" that feminine romance go in, that's what stopped the ?? I'm reallyassured now they would have gone better if you had just...leaving it as acastaway's book - a real man's book, a real he-man's brand sort of damnedthing - he said - But I believe you were right strangely enough - he said- we'llcut out...just say the word and I'll cut out all about women in it and put ittogether exactly as you wrote it"...which he did and it's been selling eversince, right up until the take-over by ?? with our firm - see. I don't knowwhat's happened now but right up until the last couple of years or so, it wasselling and it sold out in its last edition again, it sold out. Now that was"Madman's Island".

Tim: I've got a copy of it here...yes.

I: Yes, that must me an old copy.

Tim: 1938, I think that was printed.

I: Oh, how many years ago would that have been?

Tim: '38, '48, '58...'60...well, that's...30,40,50,60,70...That's almost 40 years

now.

I: 40 year? Well, it was still going to a couple of years ago anyway, it might bethe same copies but I doubt it because I've had thousands and thousands of fan-mail about those books "...why they can't buy them anywhere, why don'tthey get more?" see...a few come out now and again and that...

Tim: I'd like to talk to you a bit about your writing and you've written somany books, do you find it...obviously you don't find it difficult to writea book but how do you go about it?

I: Well, writing paragraphs for the "Bulletin" was great training. It used to getme mad...I was a kid fossicking then, I'd carried my swag to Lightning Ridgeand there my mate...Oh, he was a bonza chap, but he was a...of all thepersons in the world he was a lawyer - a solicitor, and he'd been sent up therefor his family's good..."For Sydney's good" - as he said. It was Australia'sMelbourne...because he was always getting on the tank you see, and hispeople were social people down here and he was a terrible black sheep...Ohgees! he was a nice bloke, you couldn't imagine him being a black sheep, andby God he was lively when he had a few aboard - you see. And some of the


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boys used to make whisky down below in the drives of the open mine, it wasa little bit powerful. When a mob them ?? it used to react in old Tom, myGod he used to play up, but always good humoured and lively and as funnyas anything he could be too, he was a great favourite in ??And another one was old "Black Joe" - a bloody great big powerful old negroex-boxer sort of thing. He used to "Black-Joe" and talk like "Black-Joe"though his voice was like bloomin' thunder...they were my two mates. Andme, a bit of kid it was a queer group but we used to get on wonderfully welltogether, that was the first at Lightning Ridge, there was 1 500 men there, alot of shearers had come there waiting for the next season to come to...see, toload up and go...you know, go back to sheep and other grub- steak - see, Ohit was a wonderful live, Lightning Ridge, of course now it's all flatten out.But anyway...what the bloody hell what was I talking about?

Tim: I was asking about your writing, you know, how you went about writingyour books.

I: Oh well, Old Tom Peel, he took quite a fancy to me and thought I couldwrite, that's because of these "Bulletin" things, he said: "You can go a lotfurther than that, you'll be in author one of these days".So I laughed, like a little Audrey laughed - I imagined she would laugh, sillylittle beggar. But anyway, he kept at me and he kept at me and he got at myego. I said: "Oh, well then! I'll write articles first and then I'll start writingbooks".He says: "You? You couldn't write so and so".And then he started scorning me sort of thing, which is exactly how a littlefreckled girl got me to write "The Desert" column every bloody word underfire...I said: "Jesus! I'd hate to see??".

A man has got an awful powerful ego you know, even if he's only a bit of aTom Thumb and worth about 30 bob a week, he's still got an ego if you canscratch it.Well anyway, I kept on with the Bulletin thing, but they made you...you hadto consolidate in every word to get a paragraph there, by Jove, that was tostand me in good stead in years to come because I could edit my own booksfar enough to get them through a publisher and then he'd put his own editoron - you see, but it stood me good...but the replies they used to send to ourstuff...everybody...it was a bushman's bible in those days and sent to...allAustralia wanted to get into the "Bulletin", especially the abos column andthe society column and the short stories see. And I started sending in myarticles and they used to reply that letters and corespondence, "You're notand author's bootlace and you're never will be!".

Tim: Who replied that?

I: The "Bulletin"...worse than that...Oh, some of the replies...because it wasnoted for it. It was a great...to read to answers to correspondence was acolumn in itself. I must've of caused humour to countless thousands andthousands of readers all over Australia. Fancy those poor buggers getting this


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to their bloody writing...they were shocking things, they'd make your toe-nails curl sometimes.

Tim: So they'd cane you in the columns themselves would they?

I: Ohh, cripes, yes! Mind, it was a great training as the years go by and yourealise it, 'cause it got you so mad you'd write more. It was only a refusal ??value thing, away you see, but by cripes, I used to say to old Tommy - he'dbe lying there in his bunker at night time chuckling and smoking his dirty oldpipe and laughing at me too, used to get me madder than...I'd turn around anabuse him and back to the pencil again, trying to teling him, "I've ??".Anyway, to cut another long story short...(phone).

To cut another long story short, at last an acceptance came back from the"Daily Mail", that was the "Bulletin's" weekly magazine, by Jove it was agood one. I suppose, this generation would know nothing about it, but thatwas a real good magazine. I wish it'd come out again and if they could getthe same sort of stuff I'll swear it would go...mind, those days it was only 5million population when I started writing, very different now, that's why youcouldn't get an Australian book published - you see, "who the hell wouldread an Australian book?" we used to say, even the booksellers wouldn't takean Australian book, no-one would buy this in Australia, you had to be somebloody proud English aristocratic writer or something to get a word in sort of business.The Americans were real good if you could get stuff over there, some of ourwriters used to just live on occasional story they'd get from America, withthe "Bulletin", and then when "Smith's Weekly" came in we could somedrums...a bit of tucker now and again sort of business.

But anyway, I was on this...Oh, then I got an acceptance back, and here ingreat triumph, Old Tom and I looked over the cheque - yes, it was ninety...hesaid, "The hell I'm satisfied! I'll get those so and so and so...". ??".H said: "No, you're not. You haven't got the guts to even write a book - hesaid - You, and what are you going to do? just because he gets one tiny littlearticle accepted in a magazine, you down your bloomin' tools. Down yourpen, that's like downing your pick down the mine. Yeah, I knew you had noguts from the very start".He used to make just as mad and of course I kept on then and after a whileprinted any articles, short stories - the "Bulletin" used to publish me. Theyhad me in...I'd down from the bush one day to see a story of mine in a jubileeissue of theirs - "The Men who made the Bulletin", of course that was a greattriumph you know, because blokes in the back country - lots of blokes usedto ?? I would call Cowdrey up I'd drop a request, I had about 20 names - yousee, because you couldn't have all one name in it. And other blokes was thesame, they had a number of names. But I've heard a Gouger and a sea-Nomad out in the back pub scouting, ??Gouger used to tour you see, Isuppose every other "Bulletin" writer who was frequently the same thing butblokes think it bloody wonderful.


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But one day here in Sydney after I read in the book...I was in the shophere...Oh, I think it must have been after the war, and I could see one of thecounter blokes winked at me and one of the other counter blokes seemed tobe having a losing argument with a customer who had a rather loud voice andwas stressing his point and was saying, "Idriess! there's no such name asIdriess - he said - if he is...his, then he must be an Italian because there's noAustralian writer called Idriess"."No he isn't you see..." so, I let him go on and he was a councillor"...but he is he comes in here every day when he's in the city"."Ah! you can't tell me a tale like that. I know better...I know my writersbetter than that".And it amused me but I'm thinking, "I'd like to give you a smack across thechops you stupid...", and this was a lawman - either a solicitor or a lawyer...Idon't understand the difference to this day - but he was a Sydney solicitor, soI can't blame the poor old bushie outback with a few ??... "I'm staying downthere, ask me anything about Cape York Peninsular and Torres Straits rightto the Fly River in New Guinea. Oh, gees bloody bastards...".

Tim: When you came to - you know, got more in the way of writing books,how did you go? Did you just write it down in longhand? Did you everhave to do much revision of it or did you do the editing in your head?

I: Oh no...see, I finally cleared away prospecting when I was very young andstarted then wandering, and in those days there was plenty of prospectors,but see, I believed we'd always get out to the more unexplored countybecause there was...the big gold fields had been found and the only way tofind a new field - gold or tin or wolfram was to go right out in new country -you see, so everyone who was a prospector used to get a few horses - pack-

horses - and then you was quite independent. I got up to six or seven pack-horses and two riding horses, finally had a team, so I was quite independentof any man and could roam anywhere, and I...several minerals, learnt aboutthem but above all the country that I could expect them to be in first before Iraced on fossicking in rock which had no chance with the minerals...that'sone of the big secrets.......well, it took me about five years to learn that but then I was in the bushthen and the wild places, until I was 42 years before I come down to Sydneyyou see, and then I used to go away then for six months every year,sometimes I'd be away for a couple of years then until I got absolutely caughtup in a tangle and what catches every man - you know, the women - the sortof thing and you see some marvellous sort of thing, you can't resist themunfortunately, you find that out when it's too bloody late! but you getcornered and yoked up like a poor old bullock drawing his wagon loadedwith tons and tons of some huge cedar bloody tree and you're caughtjust...well anyway, I haven't got any regrets really, except I wish I could livetwo lives - one where I was never married and always roaming, and the otherif I could find a woman in which I could be boss like, and if she wasthere...everything was wonderful as well - but I'd have to be flamin' bosswhen it comes to the...not an oppressive boss but BOSS! The poor old man


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he's...Oh, he's troubled from the day he's born till they put him in his box isn'the?...Oh well.

Tim: But, tell me about some of those early prospecting days up in the Gulf, Ithink you wrote a book "My Mate Dick" didn't you? about that period.

I: Oh, yes. Oh, he was a bonza chap Dick. He was a Cooktown boy and I usedto be up there....the boys there, they was all friends with the Aboriginal boys,they were a very plentiful population there and especially across the baythere was a big mission there that was the to part of the peninsular and apretty...an interesting old missionary was in charge of it too.But there then in the Cooktown side out towards the tin fields there was thetribes all the way out and right the way down to China Camp and right theway down into the south, well those boys with Dick and all the otherCooktown boys used to go trapping things and chasing things and especiallytheir tracks, that's where I first learnt how to track an ant...yes! you can track an ant, if you know how and you can track him right to his home, you cantrack a cricket...a tiniest little...a tiny little lizard they leave a tracks as plainas a bloody 20-foot crocodile leaves...well, in proportion - you know, but it'splain...Oh yes, all sorts of interesting...funny little things in the wet sand andespecially down the tides by the Endeavour River where old Captain Cook anchored for a while...Oh, it's covered with millions and millions of tracks of things, these little nigger boys would teach us...they knew what everythingwas in their nigger language - you know? and of course all sorts of eatiesunder that wet sand, just scrap them up...they used to stand up with the toesand...pull them up with their toes to their mouth and....

Tim: In "The Drums of Myrrh" the story concerns a white man who lived asa native on one of the islands, was that based on fact?

I: Yes, pure fact. And those days of the white people, they're all historical theywere from the wreck of the...Oh, sometimes when I want to think up straightway my memory...it comes back afterwards.I think "Charles Eaton" ??...anyway, in "Drum of Myrrh" there was a wreck there and some of the islanders come on the wrecked people, knocked themon the head - they wanted their skulls and to hang them around...but Jesus, itreminds me of something to tell you about them might surprise you - they

wanted to put them around the neck of the great Orgud?? that's the turtleshellGod, the ?? they shaved most of their them and took them with them, thosekids in ?? they were survivors from the "Charles Eaton"....

Tim: Sorry, we'll just wait a second, you lost your voice there for a moment.So getting back...and you say that the story of the white men who werecastaway among the natives in "The Drums of Myrrh" was based onfact?


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I: Oh yes. So it's always...people never believe, sometimes they half believemy...but I tell you how you can prove this one, and lots of people say " Well,it's very interesting reading a strange book "The Drums of Myrrh" but of course he must of coloured that in...", well, bugger it, the proof is right inyour own cemetery here in Sydney - old Botany cemetery, there's some of the skulls of the "Charles Eaton" in your on cemetery, there's a placard on itdescribing the government's Queen Elizabeth went up and rescued themfrom the great Orgud?? there's...right in your own cemetery.The...long afterwards when ?? rumoured through traders that there wascaptives up there, they were the "Charles Eaton", and the "Elizabeth"schooner went up there and landed on these different islands, they found theOrgud?? - it was a gigantic tortoiseshell turtle, I don't remember if it'smentioned on the placard out here in Botany, I don't think it would bebecause whoever found that would be attracted...it's a beautiful thing, savagebloody hide of a thing but out of the tortoiseshell so it would be worth a lotof money even in those days tortoiseshell turtle, but this released schoonerfound their skulls necklaced around the great Orgud?? and they broughtthose necklaces and other relics down and buried them in the whole of Botany cemetery I believe it is.And I rooted about how...wondering what had happened, heard up about the"Elizabeth" - just vague rumours, legends of those...none of the whites of those days believed it you see, ?? under those conditions, but anyway bysome bloody fluke I read in some old government gazette thing here thatthey buried them out...I went out just as a fluke and went all through thosecemeteries and here's a great big stone ?? lying over, fallen over with age butit's got a copper plate on it and here's the whole story of the tragic wreck of the "Charles Eaton" and so on, and they showed bloody skulls in this storyinside, now don't you reckon that should be verifying a fact right enough ??

Tim: Yes...but how did you get the detail of what happened on the island?

I: Well, through the wandering missionary, it's most unusual for a prospectorand a missionary to chum-up together, but he was a writer like me and hisfather was the first man of the missionaries to come through from NewGuinea to the natives there and the dear old missionary in those days, theirways to convert the...they come across and where they landed was the tree of skulls, you see, Sideby?? Island is right against...you can throw a stoneacross to New Guinea, well down the Jaguda?? down the main river - My??River there - the Jeejerri?? come down...Oh, for thousands of years I

suppose, and try and take a few of the Torres Strait heads, but by God, theywas good fighters and they used to hang on to their heads, but on this low-lying island they had their tree up top with a big house where they used tojump up you see, and say, "Come up you bastard and get us!', and they'dsend their arrows down and the New Guinea men would send their arrows upand there was a disadvantage, they lasted all those years, and all the heads of the Sideby?? men was a big bushy tree down there, and here they had all theskulls on it.


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Well, unfortunately MacFarland, his dad come along in they come in thereand the put to their big house - R?? house - the men's house and defencehouse, and their idol sort of thing - they put the fire-stick to them to teach thesavages - you know, "our way" you see...our bloody way, they couldn't burnthe tree of skulls but they got down as many as they could and buried them.When I go there is was covered - not with ?? but big ?? shells - the nearestapproach to represent by this time, and just way up top there was three dirty,grey-looking pathetic-looking things falling to pieces, it was all that was leftof the many skulls, but a...what the hell was I....?.

Tim: ...white men actually living on the island and how you found out aboutthat.

I: Oh, with MacFarland, he started them, he was a lifetime study by that time -by I met him and these natives, and he used liked to write for the samemagazine - the Mail magazine, see...that's he and I...and he used to write aparagraphs for the "Bulletin" from Thursday, that's how I got to know himfrom when I come down to Sydney here, this MacFarland because I used tolike his articles - his very rare articles on the Torres Strait Islands, that's howI'd made up my mind I must go and see the bloke, so when I went up I calledon him, and we got together straight away, see. And with him and hismission ketch "Herrod" I've landed in every island in Torres Strait, they'reonly small and there's not so many of them. The islands between the tip of Cape York Peninsular and Papua - at the end of Papua where it comes downthere, just those islands between, but they're the most fascinating history of the islanders...far more than any others of the many islands I've visited yousee.Well, with the ?? and the "Herrod" out there and we camped on island after

island where he had his men and he'd organised to hold hands to make peaceand that sort of thing, the old ?? priest - got a real priesthood there, all sortsof laws and by cripes! they were perving masters at what was mesmerism,and what that's other close allied thing?

Tim: Hypnotism.

I: Hypnotism...?? that "The First Drums of Myrrh" had chapters and that's,what I've seen them do, people lie down for them and things they...well, allsort of messy-looking things they used to draw out of them, these old blokes,they used to before my eyes, unless they had me hypnotised, anyway, they'd

get up and bloomin' were cured.But our readers - Angus and Robertson at that time says: "You daren'tpublish this, this is ridiculous, it'd even make Angus and Robertson thelaughing stock all over Australia".

Tim: This is "The Drums of Myrrh".


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I: "The Drums of Myrrh", so the most interesting chapters of the lot and finallyI got narked into...I took them back and I burnt them, I wish I never bloodywell had. The stuff there...if I could only remember all that stuff.We used to sit down - MacFarland - the old Z?? with the old remnantsaround us in the Z?? house and I'd ask questions, but I'd write the answers,MacFarland, would ask of these old hands who'd been there all their lifetimeand knew all the stories of their ancestors, that's where he got ?? for theleaders of the men up in the sky who'd come down in their sailing ships toteach them how to make the great fish traps and how to make life easier andwhat trees to grow on the islands which were very small, you could havemonths listening Cabershoe?? and his bloody warriors, he defended thewhole bloody lot of them - that's going off into something else....We'd sit down night after night and I'd write down the answers see, that'show all that "Drums of Myrrh" was questions, when I got to learn a bit withquestions I asked, and they gave me details.I can tell you a joke now about that dance of death. Now, that a big question- and I've seen this question in the press - "Idriess must have gone drawn thelong bow, he's coloured it a little bit".

Tim: ..."Idriess must've have...", what?

I: "...drawn the long bow here surely", you know with a condemned warrior,they knock him the head in such a way the blood spurts out and he keeps onrunning with the blood spurting out, to me it was so simple - of course Iunderstand it now people find it hard - I seen my own dad killing the Sundaybloody rooster for the pot - often if you hit him, if you hit him with the axejust between these two bones, you can feel those bones there, that roosterwill run around the yard, well that's exactly the same, strangely enough only

a few ?? something about a condemned criminal in China - someonereporting it, and when the axe-man chopped his head off he jumped up to theastonishment of the crowd, running round and round with blood spurting -exactly the dance of death. Well, anyway that was ?? first chapter there as faras my faulty memory goes and I'm sure it was.I can tell you a joke about that, there was I did a laugh, a bit of a maliciouslaugh because I learnt a little bit about the private lives of Oscar Wilde whoshows where the poor old task boy picked us up in his lo' to whoa and goesto toil in the morning, do you know what they do?...thank God. They get thekids packed off to school then they...they get their packet of a cigarettes,their favourite book, turn on the hot water in the bathroom, put a pillow onthe top of the bath and get in there nice and comfy and warm and light acigarette to iron the hot hours away - whatever they call that. After signingout to the missus next door, "When you get out of the bath we'll have acuppa together", yeah. And then they get themselves all fit - you know, forthe real stories of the day.Well, this book was very popular - all my books by this time they sell out atthe first editions, they had to before Christmas in those days, otherwise Iwouldn't have had the money for a bloody crust, books had to sell.


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Well, by the way they grew up to be - me and Tim's included - 16 000 and 20000 of the first edition, and to sell out before Christmas, and now they tellme if they sell 3 000...what on earth has happened to the writers? if they sell3 000 of the first edition, they reckon it's wonderful, I can't understand it, Ithought long before now we would have had Australian authors sell 30 000or 40 000 for a Christmas edition, I can't understand it...well anyway that'sanother...I was telling you about these women, and they'd open up at theblood thirsty chapter. Well, at least a score of fan-mail came from womenand ?? a breath of relief getting rid of the old man and the kids, and they readthis awful chapter and they all said they were sick in the bath...do you know,I have a hysterical laugh at every one of them, I thoroughly enjoy thosebloody letters. What man would laugh at a poor woman being sick in thebath....

Tim: But the natives in "The Drums of Myrrh", is must have been a verycruel civilization mustn't it?

I: In one way they had the very strict laws but this was all for the tribe, for thecombined safety of the tribe, where they had enemies everywhere. and if anyone broke a law that meant it was a start for someone else to be gameenough to do if they wanted to, whereas, they reckoned if they were all stuck together from birth to death it'd be only by the greatest bad luck that theycould be broken sort of thing, and that's how they existed in different tribes.And some of those tribes in the Torres Straits they'd join together, if anyoneelse come they could fight with one another if they wanted to, but they didn'tmuch want among themselves because they had plenty to do looking aftertheir own trees and vegetables...they grew all sort of native vegetables, thesemen in the sky taught them they reckon, a lot of them came from New

Guinea a lot of their different yams and that sort of thing which I conceivedthey easily could because that's practically another continent New Guineaand it's tremendous the vegetation in New Guinea, so it could have come, butthey would have had a fight, they would have been told where to get...eitherfight or trade with the New Guinea people that was the usual way in thosedays.But it's...what the hell else? well, that was that joke...that's my joke about thedrunkin'....Oh well, we'd sit down wherever he had the...what do they call itin civilization here?...in combination with the chief of aborigines...he agreedit was a good idea Max?...or native councillors, these old...blood-thirty oldpriesthood, they brought them into their priesthood, they were the nativecouncillors and they were responsible for keeping order in their island, andfor getting all they could out of the government - the government would helpthem in every way, the must keep their certain order, no more head-hunting,not unless they were attacked and that sort of thing.And each island was treated the same way so they had very importantcouncillors and as they were already the feared priesthood of the local therethey were obeyed, and it suited the old blokes, one of the old blokes - whenthey got to know me - he says, "Look it was great Jack, we hate - to put it inmy language - we hate to see the young fellas all going the white man's way


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and thinking more of the white man's god and the white man's beliefs. Wemust now...realise that but it makes our hearts sore to see that - he said - nowlook at this, I fear now will I ever be able to use it", and he showed me adirty-looking dried up pea, a fair size....What's up puss? you've been eating something you shouldn't have, you

better go up and see Wendy and find out what's wrong with you, I'm nobloody good.

Tim: I don't think she likes the tape recorder....

I: Oh, it's just the...she knows, she sees the electricity in these places betterthan us, when ?? she comes to??....

Tim: Anyway, sorry, you sere saying about the old men saying that they weresorry about the young men going the white man's way...

I: "I might never be able to use this - he says - I'm trying hard to use it beforeit's too late, but I find it more and more difficult to get in touch with it. Thisis for my nephew in New Guinea - this is my enemy's tongue...".

Tim: His enemy's tongue?

I: Sun-dried, his enemy's tongue. "He's got to swallow this and this will givehim his ?? as a great fighting man, a great warrior. He's got to swallow thisand his enemy's spirit will come out and make him a strong powerful savagewarrior. But I can't get at him and he's going very strong, he's going to thewhite man's school in there and he's only sixteen but I'm afraid he's going allout to be a white man, and he's inclined to laugh at the old men's ways and

that sort of thing".But that was one of the old...carrying on as though..and there's this horrible-looking bloody thing, and he was one of the leading councillors of thechurch - of our church.

Tim: Did you deliver the tongue to the young man?

I: No, Oh no, he had to give it...had to take certain vows from the Z?? when hetook it and another Z?? had to witness, then he was one of them, hecould...courage to be as bigger man as Z?? if he was good enough, he's growup to be a real man sort of business.

Tim: But this old chap was a pillar of the Christian church was he?

I: Yes, yes. He was one of the main councillors on this island you see, keepingthe rest of the wild country ??Well, Mac had them all under his thumb like that, he would never havemanaged but for some clever idea like that you see, and of course he was inclose touch with the aborigines department in Thursday Island and anythingthat he thought that the whites could do for the abos - the aborigines


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department would send out to Thursday Island for him and he'd hand it outyou see. See, always keeping the strong hand - in the hand, you see.

Tim: You seem to have been particularly fascinated by the Torres StraitIsland aborigine.

I: Oh yes, they were very nice people. A laughing people, brown people, veryintelligent, they weren't very tall but they were very broad, that was because- women and all - they were such wonderful swimmers, they lived in theseislands, they lived practically in the water, they could swim under water foran amazing length of time, and their life was as much in the water fully asmuch in the water as on the land, and the main defence was absolutely anavy in the smallest island of all and without any water on it, that wasWarrior Island, the whites there ?? because the fighting powers of that, theold sea captains of our day called it Warrior Island, all they did was, warriorwatching over the interest of all of the rest of the different types in this onelittle erea that they call Torres Strait. And there there was a wonderful cheif called Cabeshoe and he had built huge canoes with sails of coconut palm,treated in a certain way they could stand almost the biggest storms, and thesewere huge...say, take 100 warriors each and they had bows that I could liftthe bow string, they used to remind me exactly of the stories of boyhooddays of the longbow men of the yeomanry of England, and they're hugelongbows that used to go to war with and with a backbone as British armiesof those days after the horsemen.Anyway, I could lift the bow back, they were very powerful. They used tosail up and down that Strait, and New Guinea of course had far the greatestnumber of warriors, they were supposed to have had a couple of million menwhen our first whites entered New Guinea. If they'd come in raiding it'd be

Cabeshoe's man to be the first to meet them, and they fired a rear-guardaction, everyone would have to fight from their islands, but Cabeshoe couldmanoeuvre his fleet anywhere, and he was a terror of any enemy of biggernumbers because he could attack from anywhere - the rear or anywhere andwith these great canoes of his, they were wonderful sailors, and the WarriorIsland men were wonderful warriors.One of the English war ship...I can't remember the name just now, but hecame and anchored by that island, and he had his...in case of these warriorshe'd had enough for another commander to these chaps, he had just in casehe was attacked by Cabeshoes warriors, he had his gun loaded with grey-shot and chain-shot - that was a big chain as you imagine... say, a 20 footlength of chain is fired out of a canon, it unwinds in the air and whirls roundand round and round...see, it'd cut through...it's bloody worse than ourshrapnel of these modern days. You imagine the chain ?? this room whirlround and round a mob of niggers...God, stone the crows! a mob of whitescouldn't stand up against grey-shot.Well, anyway these chaps did have designs on this cheeky English captain,and Cabeshoe says, he wasn't scared of these men with the spirits, theythought anything worthwhile was like the ships they reckoned came downfrom the sky, they call us, the white people, the Mars?? that's spirit people,


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see they'd come down from the sky for a period here to learn what these weredoing on earth, then they'd fly back as ships of spirit people back to theskies, they had marvellous sort of beliefs like that, it fascinated me. Well anyway, those world wars I used to look...but "Drums of Myrrh" allcame from the old Z?? night after night answering my questions withMacFarland, I would never have heard of those things you know, never haveheard of all the things that's in "The Drums of Myrrh" book, and that's onlyfragments, like notebooks there I could write a couple more books about thatsame island, and from those there.

Tim: Are you still writing?

I: Only by a fluke, by this same bloody ego I told you of...I'm doing now apiece from one of the publishers but it all come about...when I was here andthere was a mix-up...I woke up one morning with paralysis and about thatsame time there was these disastrous take-overs was the fashion, there wasthe two take-overs in A &R and things got mixed up and I was lost and hadto get rid of this bloody paralysis which I did get finally get rid of it, and Ilost touch with everything, I lost a lot of interest too.

Tim: But you're writing again now?

I: Oh, yes. Now see here, there's a few curious here. I got cases of them upthere, managed to get...that's a too longer story to tell you how I got themdown from all those wild places, unfortunately what interests me most wasthe transition of the aborigines which is the oldest...the oldest stone-age menleft in the world, the very last you know. I mean, the real aborigines...thewild ones, I don't mean those ?? I mean, real stone-age men....

End Side - 3Begin Side - 4

Tim: Mr. Idriess, over the years you've been very interested in aborigines andin fact you've done almost a lifetime study of them, when did you beginthis interest?

I: Oh, when I was a kid in knickerbockers. See, dad was a Sheriff's Officer andInspector of Mines, well that inspector of mines meant he'd be moved fromtownship to township as it grew in importance, and with many towns we

visited he's have to go out in the bush where there were scattered mines allover the district, he was stationed in NSW and he had to inspect the minesfor the prospectors with this mining...the Government Mining Department,and there was all sorts of outside mining work.Well, I'd often travel with him, especially in Christmas holidays in the sulkyand there was always plentiful blacks then in NSW, they were "tame ones"like. I didn't meet the wild blacks until I got up in the north of Queensland,but dad liked the abos and they used to catch tobacco from him and all sortsof little favours and that sort of thing, and in every town we was chummy


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with the outside blacks, well I was only actually a baby when I first sawthem, and when we were stationed at Lismore, Lismore then wasn't thelovely city it is now but it was just a tiny country township where you'd see aman in corduroys running along, just walking along down the street with hishorse kicking up a bit of dust from his heels and that sort of thing, a fewboys...timber cutters having a drink or two and a few town's people...it wasjust a township, but we lived three miles at a place called Boree Creek out of Lismore and down at the river at the bottom of our huge paddock was thelocal tribe of blacks, and they were very sophisticated even in those days andthey'd go into town on Saturday, and especially...the particularly stories wasamong them was some of the black gins, they were very knowledgeableladies indeed. Well they'd come out screaming...mad, blithered in the nighttime and fight their way back - with the black men.But on Monday they'd come crawling up and they knew when dad would gointo town - three miles to drive there - mum would be home and she wasvery frightened of them, she could never get used to the ....but these old girlsknew they could bully mum, and they used to catch nearly all the tuckerthat'd be in the house sometimes before she could shoo them away with allsorts of vain threats and that sort of thing, that's when I got really to knowthem and I think they were just human beings like us, although very differentto us. And I took an interest in them especially the piccaninnies from a verytender age. And every place we went - except Broken Hill which was a goodmany years later - there was always a tribe of blacks camped down at thecreek at the river in whatever township dad was stationed to. So from...Oh,from a very tender age I began to take an interest in them.

Tim: And then of course you went into areas where they hadn't had anycontact with white men before, didn't you?

I: Oh yes, that was when I was a young fella. I left home...Oh, somewhereabout 18 and 19 and anyway, I carried my swag...the opal fields at LightningRidge had been found then so I carried my swag there. That was the day bythe way when Cobb & Co's coach in those days, and I've never forgottenmeeting the coach in that trip coming along, it's hard to think that even in aliving man's time that all our transport was done by horses and the travel byCobb & Co's coach...I was going along this track from Walgett and all Icould here was the crows that was following me along the edge of the timberand the big station Dungalear Station, there was the crows and the brightsunshine and the cockatoos was screeching at me as you go past and life waswonderful, and I was dreaming of finding a big opal mine and all that sort of thing that man dreams of all through his life more or less anyway, and in thedistance I saw a big cloud of dust coming, and they were...I watched for awhile and then it got plainer and plainer coming and then I could hearshouting and seeing far in the distance coming along and a bloomin' banjoplaying and that sort of thing and the horn blowing, they used to have abullock's horn and blow "here comes the coach!" you could hear it for a mile,so it rapidly drew closer and closer and here was the Cobb & Co's coach,they had six horses and coming hell for leather - for at Walgett you see they


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changed the horses and it was packed, blokes sitting up on top and headsleaning out of the bloomin' window and there they was all singing and thatsort of thing, and as they approached me the bloke...the driver blew his hornagain and waved his whip and I waved my hand and the blokes gave a greatHoorah! and that swine nearly smothered me in their blasted dust and Iyelled and they yelled and away they'd gone...Cobb & Co. in my bloody day,every bush road had Cobb & Co's coaches on, that's the only way you couldtravel unless you had your own horse and your buggy - and that's somethingin my lifetime, since then we've gone to the moon, it's bloody wonderfulwhen you think of it....?? motor car, internal combustion engine they puteven the horses out of business at last, and the old bullocks put them out of business. I'm glad they did because the horses and the big heavy transportthen it'd be...of course it'd be very heavy, life was hard when I was ?? poordevils used to toil themselves to death of course.

Tim: But also in your lifetime you've seen stone-age man from his very firstcontact with whites. Where did you most meet the aborigines that hadn'tseen white people before?

I: There was still some mobs right at the top of Cape York Peninsular,particularly the west-coast where sandalwood cutters used to have to godown there and they had to bribe the abos down there, they were what wecall "cheeky fella" they'd like to have a go at the white man sort of businessyou see. Well, there were wild ones down there and in the east-coast nowand again there was a pretty cheeky ones, but they'd got fairly used to thewhites, for a prospector going up and finding half a dozen little gold fieldsup there you see.And then of course when I went to the Kimberleys there were plenty of wild

ones there - tribes of them, and in parts of the Territory they were still wild,plenty of parts of the Territory, because the Territory was just a huge, bigalmost unoccupied country then, I think Victoria Downs is one of the fewstations there, it was as big as Belgium they used to say in my day - that onestation...Christ!

Tim: The photographs in the book, did you take those yourself?

I: Yes, almost ninety percent of those photos are...I took myself...I went upwith the...3 000 miles with a police patrol in the Kimberleys, and then of course I had to get permission from the chief of the police department in

Perth, and they bought me a camera with a Zeiss Icon lense which is awonderful lense even today, a couple of pictures are taken by that in some of the reviews on top of the books there, the reviewers said, these copies shouldbe sent to some photographic government department in Paris apparentlywell-known, so they must've been good because I knew nothing aboutphotography, they were just fluke ones.

Tim: Was it difficult to photograph the aborigines in their wild state?


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I: Sometimes, but if you're wide awake which we had to be in those days...oneday I was was out in the back blocks and was camping with the only manthere - a selector, he'd brought his baby there, brought her by camel allthrough this country and made a selection of this wild beautiful little spot bya place called The Sale River - beautiful little place, anyway I was campingwith him for a time until the patrol came, they'd gone right to the coast so Iwas going to wait for it there to come back, we just sitting there smoking acigarette watching all the little birds running across the water-lily leaveswhen I heard a tiny little patter-patter and here was a young gin I didn'tmove, and of course you know, as long as you don't move even wild trainedmen could pass you by and not see you...like, the aeroplanes can't see youunless you move you know, anyway I shouldn't say that I don't suppose it'sof any bloody interest, but anyway I stood still...being a gentleman I shouldhave gone but I didn't anyway, she come along, there's a lovely in front of me and she was a real woman, she'd never seen a bloody white woman untilthis young selector brought his wife along, but she stood by that pool likeanother of the young girls at north Queensland and washed the same way andshe tucked her hair over her head and back and that was a ?? and she did allthe showing?? a little of everything sort of thing, and she looked damnedgood, young gins are very slim and they're not the very broad-nosed type,they've got quite a lot of Malay blood in them through centuries andcenturies of Malays coming across our coast, and some of them looked...wildanimal-looking things alright, anyway I thoroughly enjoined myself apparently she ??.

Tim: Did the Zeiss Icon come out at this stage?

I: Did the what?

Tim: Did the camera come out?

I: Yeah, somewhere or other there's a photo of her there. But that betrayed mewith her ears, though I'd made sound and took a lot of photos of herbefore...of her and the surrounding and that sort of thing, but she heard thatclick, some very real air current took it to her and she looked round and sheseen me and she was instantly a statue, with arms up like this, doing her hairand showing off what she had to show, she was quite attractive too in a wildway, and she stared and stared and stared, she was paralysed.

Tim: She wouldn't have seen a white man before I suppose.I: No...I could help grinning after I had to reassure her and made some silly ??

"It's alright toots, it's alright, I'm not the devil", they're very superstitious youknow, and there's all spirit people about them night and day, she thought Iwas a spirit devil, God knows what she thought I was going to do to her, shedidn't give me a chance to do anything with her, all of a sudden shescreamed, she must have jumped six foot, and she almost jumped across that


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great big water-hole, splashing to the other side, by Christ she was gone in aflash...what the hell am I talking like that for?

Tim: Just looking at some of the photographs in that book, theextraordinarily fine specimens of warrior, very proud, big raw-muscledmen....

I: They are, well you see, they've had millions of years to be proud of onlythemselves, and how they existed is a mystery, of course against the biganimals that was in this country then you see, let alone all sorts of snakes andthis sort of bloody thing, and poisonous insects. But, they were very proudand the only men they had any contact was in the north, the Malay pros thathad come along....

Tim: The pearlers?

I: No, this was hundreds of years before the pearlers... what was it from? theBte de Mer - the sea slug, the Chinese mandarins which the ladies in thosedays used say, were very very fond of Bte de Mer soup and their pros usedto come and the Bte de Mer there were bed of them right up against ourcoast you see, and water the ?? with the tides, bring them down when theyfeed, and the Malays used to land and bargain with the natives sort of thing -fraternise with them in a way, that's with those tribes that would fraternise,others only wanted to spear them, and I'm afraid to say some tribes used toput them on the coals too, cut them up.

Tim: Cannibalism.

I: Yes. The was an occasional tribe but was the best known cannibals was inthe big gulf where the river would go - Palmer river, they used to love theChinese that swarmed out there, there was 20 000 Chinese round theCooktown district at one period was counted when the first whites come andthey took census and that sort of thing. But they used to spit at white men'sface because we was too salty, but Chinese was just right, so the poor oldchinks used to cop, they used to have ten men to guard them - come out fromChina when the ships would land in Cooktown the ?? used to pick up theirbags and things and away they'd go barefoot, and a couple of ?? men wouldbe in the lead with and old-fashioned gun in those days, great big savagelooking Chinese-trained professional soldiers of those days, and a couple at

the back, these was to guard the poor chows from becoming "long pig" - asthey were called, was the name they called them when they roastedChinamen, that was "long pig". And away they'd go with the ?? menguarding them from China you see, because their fare was paid out ?? bygroups of men...of Chinese business men and they had one percent of thegold they brought back to China when they made their fortune went to themyou see.


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Tim: I wonder why the aborigines were so fond of Chinese flesh rather thanwhite flesh.

I: Because they reckoned it was sweeter and more tender, we spoiled our fleshby too much salt, it made them very thirsty the old abos in those days, butthey were cruel buggers you know, our abos, naturally all stone-age men arein their way but there was a sort of deficiency in their life.For instance, there was a party of white men...a mob of white prospectors,they ambushed them there was only four or five of them - I don't rememberthe full details now...there were four or five so they roasted them, clobbereda couple of them and three they slung down and grabbed alive, well theyweren't going to eat the lot, the ones they killed on the...knocked them on thehead and put them in the fire they ate them... but to keep the others alive theyjust took off their...tore off their clothes of course and then with a nulla-nullajust cracked their shins - broke their legs you see, and with the stream thereand the palms and the cold water up in among the hills, they just put them inthe water, stretch them out there among the stones where the water justflown over them just with their heads above water you see, but the coldwater kept them cool like we have a machine to put meat in, they kept themthere, they were alive, it was alive meat for when they wanted them you see,and so they had to lay there while they were dancing and that and eating theothers, and days went by and then they pulled out one bloke and knock himon the nut with a nulla-nulla, break him up and gradually eat him, the otherbloke was waiting for his turn.One of them somehow got hold of...in his swag was a pannikin and a nailand he wrote what they were doing - scratched it you see, and hid thepannikin under a stone thinking blokes would come along and start trackingand that sort of thing, they might find the pannikin which the blokes did

when they come looking for them, they didn't know, they just come alongand saw where they'd been, found this pannikin where he'd scratched thedetails, "they've taken Tom now", and it's just a few lines but you could stillread it.

Tim: They all died did they? the ones that they had there, they all died.

I: Oh yes. Oh yes, those blokes went down their bellies - "long pig".

Tim: When you approached or were approached by aborigines that hadn'thad any contact with whites before, knowing some of these stories, how

did you feel and how did you cope with the situation?I: I was always wary, had to be you see, but not antagonistic, see some of those

tribes they'd all be frightened of us and they were terrified of the gun - the"thunder gun" you see, and they put a lot of...the first...the earliest ones theybelieved we were spirit men, like the Torres Strait Islanders - white men.See, when they first saw white men they never seen a white man, the abos.The Aboriginals - the wild ones - were the last stone-age men in the world,other stone-age men had long since seen white men, you see they was what


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we called sophisticated. But the first white men that the Aboriginals saw -they were spirit men, and they brought down thunder from the heavens fromthe big storms in the heavens in their shotguns, you see, they were most ??

Tim: They were frightened of the guns.

I: Oh, they were frightened and terrified of the thunder you see, just like thestorms, the thunder was the voice of big spirit men up above to theaborigines naturally so, and a thunderstorm up there - anywhere, can beterrifying if you don't know any better because someone must make thatthunder, well, it's the thunder God ??

Tim: Did the aborigines in the Kimberleys believe the white men were spiritmen too?

I: Oh yes, they've got the same belief as the...see, those men over there, thoseare spirit men down from the skies, you see. When you talk about...if you letthat picture...?? old Palmer River days in Cooktown, see that sketch there?

Tim: Oh, the etching of the diggers and the....

I: Yes, that was done by a wandering artist, I can't remember his name now,but he's a real artist whose found his way up from Sydney in the early earlydays and that sort of thing, and for his board and lodging he drew that sketchall around the walls of the...not the West Hotel....

Tim: Oh, the hotel in Cooktown?

I: In Cooktown, yes see, and....

Tim: The West-coast Hotel?

I: The West-coast Hotel, yes.

Tim: I've seen them.

I: Have you seen them?

Tim: Yes.

I: Oh well! when I was up there they was beginning to crack you see, andfinally they had to take them down, all along they kept them there, it was thewife of the original owner, Paddy - he got a kick from the horse the originalpublican and his whole forehead was bashed in.


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Tim: Was it called "the West-coast Hotel" because the original owner camefrom the West-coast of Tasmania down Queenstown, was it? the reasonwhy it was called the West-coast Hotel.

I: I don't remember...I don't remember anyone ever enquiring. It'd always beenthere as far as we was concerned. Paddy was the...in my day, I suppose I wasthere...I'd come to Chillagoe - a big copper place then...I think it was 1910and I was in Cooktown a year or two after, it'd be 1911 or 1912 I supposewhen I was first in Cooktown...?? Oh, I can't understand then....

Tim: What interested me was that it looks very much like the hotels that arein Queenstown on the West-coast of Tasmania which is an old miningtown - you know? again at the turn of the century and I was told that achap had come up from Queenstown to start the pub and that's whatthey called it the West-coast Hotel.

I: It's very very likely it could be because it was all prospectors at the start andthen people come into the rush in those days - you know, it was atremendous rush and my God that was out in the back blokes in those days, itreally was a river of gold. There must have been - well, a hundred thousandChinese at least when they made their fortune and shipped away back toChina - had made their fortune, of course money was in farthings in thosedays let alone pennies, let alone China land you could make a fortunequickly. And these chaps made a fortune, they had to go back to the blokewho sent them out, pay him his dues, then they could live on their money forthe rest of their life, but they had to make room for others to come - yousee...bloody cunning the Chinese, well they survived...when they were reallywhat we'd call educated men, when our own ancestors were carrying a spear

and a club and were dressed in ?? they'd had plenty of time to get cunninghadn't they? the Chinks....

I: ...a pretty cunning thing of Lassiter, now you can hide nothing from theAboriginal you see, he's in his native country, and his standing with his barefeet on his own ground, and his eyes that was looking for anything...Imentioned yesterday, his kiddies taught me how to track an ant.Well, Lassiter, he wanted...he was supposed to...he knew he was going todie, he wanted his diary of the day to be saved from the...so they could get tohis company and to his wife...

Tim: His diaries was it?I: Yes, he used to put them in a tin and hide them under the ashes in his camp-

fire, he'd make his...he'd protect them from the fire and the heat sort of bloody thing first, as he was building his fire - you see, build deep enough sothat he could put a bit of tin down and bark and that to prevent the heatgoing too far down and he put his fire on and sit there and the niggers couldwatch him having his tucker and there was his fire and then when they'd


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come after him in the morning they never dreamt that anything was underthe camp-fire ashes - that was bloody clever - you know.And night after night, day after day when he'd have enough of his diaries tohide, that's what...and the niggers never found one.

Tim: You had to be pretty clever to outsmart the aborigines in those days.

I: My flamin' oath! My flamin' oath! and of course that was a...naturally they'dnever think of anything where there'd been a fire...two bloody fires, they'dnever dream anything was under those ashes, my oath!

Tim: I was going to ask you about Lassiter actually, you wrote a book aboutthat of course, didn't you?

I: Oh yes...yes. It was only a fluke book too. It was from the police at AliveSprings - it was only a tiny little village in those days, no-one knew of theAlice in those days, they just had a police patrol's camp there. And they sentdown to Sydney, said they found the body of a prospector the aborigines hadtold them about a body of a prospector out by this little cave thing, it wasjust this?? and I'd read it all...I was down here from the bush with the ususalshammy of gold ?? poor old bugger. I started writing the book seeing that, Ithought, "There's a story in that", and no-one ever ?? only that bad, it wouldnever have been heard of.Anyway, I was thinking about it and thinking about it and then madeenquiries and found out that he had backers you see, the owners...the Baileysof...the Labor Party had started a paper called "The World" I think it was,and anyway they decided...they backed Lassiter and they had a very goodidea, and these chaps?? it was 50 years before his diamond fortune you see.

Oh well, I rode from Sydney mid-way through Australia, right through to theWest Australian coast, in case of attacking and invasion sort of thing, wecould hurry help to the west - that was long years ago since that was arattling good idea, and when this prospector bloke came to this newspapercompany suggested that he found gold out...he thought, "Here's a good idea,we'll back him up and he can look for his gold field and still find the routefor this road", he was a politician...was it the two Bailey brothers who run"The World" - anyway, it was those three blokes who backed him, but thatwas the whole idea, that's how he got money....

Tim: Was it Lassiter who got the money to do this?

I: Yes, they back him up, the newspaper people. But that was their idea of aroad to...and it's a long time since Lassiter days - you see.Well I found this out, going wandering about and making enquiries, I wentdown to the Mines Department, I think they who put me right, they said, "Ohyes, that prospector, the proprietors of the..." - I'm nearly sure it was "theWorld", anyway it was the daily of those days, so I went and saw them andthey told me all about it and ?? to police chaps and right up some of thembecause I wanted to send him some more ?? you see, and that's where I got


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the whole idea from. Well, and then when the police sent them down thediary and that, my publishers then, they looked at me as something theycouldn't understand by that, I had only written three or four books but they'deach been best-sellers, and this bloody wild man from Borneo - from thebush, of course they didn't in me at all, they reckoned it's not possible, itcan't be that, and the Australian people actually bought Australian books -Australian booksellers actually bought after the first bloody book...unheardof.

Tim: Getting back to Lassiter, what? did you get on...were you the first to getonto the real story?

I: Oh yes, Oh yes. I found out from them, they told me all that they knew andhow they'd financed him and then when the police eventually ?? up at thepolice sent us down any papers and that sort of thing, that was when theygot...the ?? of the old bushie up there, dug under the ashes ?? there was hisbloody diaries under the...old buck?? he lived on ?? ever since on hisreputation, after that old bugger nearly passed out....

Tim: But Lassiter left the diaries behind in every camp-fire did he?

I: Yes.

Tim: Not just dug them up and took them away again?

I: Oh no, no.

Tim: And who was the old boy that discovered the diaries?

I: Buck, Buck you see. And he used to put on a tree "HB" - just chop a bit witha tomahawk, that was another good guide.

Tim: Do you belive that the reef exists?

I: I think it did. But my idea was much more north to where they've beenlooking for it. Because north I know well, I've been up there, there all...moremineral country, the further north up along the overland telegraph linelooking west, the more minerals you can see - the granite country, slatecountry, to a prospector that means a chance of minerals you see, whereas

the way they've gone looking for it according to the photos on television, itdoesn't look like mineral country at all to me.And then, it was through the book that the...and years afterwards that the lastbig goldfield in Australia was found - Tennant Creek. The old...Oh, what'shis name now? anyway, the old boy had previously bought this prospectingbook by some bloody unknown Aussie bloke but he reckons it was prettygood, and then when he heard of ?? he thought to himself, "Christ, I knowthat old bugger so well, I've been in his station there again and again",anyway, he got the idea - well I don't know if there's any truth in this bloody


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"Lassiter's Last Ride" or not but this gold is good, so he started sending thenatives out - I nearly said a terrible word then - to pick up the heaviest rocksthey could find, break off little bits of them and bring them to him, and he'dgive them half a stick knicki-knick?? tobacco - that's trade tobacco - it meansfuck?? you read as well...they can put their own interpretations in, ??anyway, otherwise it's here and in Africa it's called "trade tobacco" that'ssweepings of the tobacco floors, you get chips and spit and Christ knowswhatnot - everything.Anyway, us diggers when we go out in the bush and run out of tobacco weused to break the awful looking stuff up and bloody well smoke it, "any portin a storm" as the monkey said when...anyway what the hell was I talkingabout?

Tim: Oh, you were talking about the Tennant Creek goldfield.

I: Oh yes, so the natives used to...and that's a 1000 to 1 chance of course youcould pick up a billion stones without seeing a speck of gold, especiallynatives - you know...what his name?Anyway, these boys found the pinnacles ?? anyway, one day...and then he'ddolly up these stones from the prospecting for gold book and wash them andTennant Creek it's reason was then and it was blessed it had in the old wornout creek of ancient days it had a great big water-hole and it was neverknown to go dry so when the overland telegraph line was built the mainstation was built there where there'd always been water in this waterlesscountry you see, so we'd wash down there, and one day he got a trace of yellow gold...he found ??water dish and all, mind, of course it was a greatpastime for a lonely man like that,see. But then he sent away, he knew an oldprospectors 300 miles to the south, he wrote a letter down to him...Oh no,

and they phoned the man down there instead of going up...line was a centraldistrict, no towns or anything like that and told him just what he'd found thatsort of thing, and said, "and if you like I'll grub-steak you out of my salary if you'd like to come and have a look round". So the old fossicker did and thenatives took him out with these heavy bloody stones, had a hell of a jobfinding his right place with that ??heavy stone, he was virtually legless, thenhe dug a trench through a crest of a hill then and there was the gold rightenough - that was Tennant Creek, the start of Tennant Creek.Well, there's far more...Lassiter was much more likely....see, Lassiter couldhave found that you see, right in his line of travel, but to the north in goldcountry.

Tim: So you think that Lassiter might have found the Tennant Creek one?

I: I think that it very likely that that was what he found and then wanderingwhen he went sick and that sort of thing and lost his sight while the nativeswould still have him, God knows where he wandered to, well, they foundhim by this little cove because he had to follow while the natives would leadhim, he couldn't direct them to go anywhere he just had to go where theywent hunting for their tucker, see. That's what I think had happened. And he


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went with them until they left him to die - you see, that's what they do withtheir own people, they generally leave them a drop of water and a kangaroobone and that's his...it's nature, they can't exist, they couldn't have weak andsick people on their hand in those dry sort of arid sort of country, especiallyif it's in a drought time.

Tim: When you were up in the Kimberleys and meeting all these wild blacksdid they allow you to look at their rituals and study them and takepictures without any trouble?

I: No, not until...in any wild place I've been, not until they sort of got used tome and trusted me - you see. And of course, I'd always help on their trust, if I had horses or if I was travelling with a patrol and we'd usually have a longstring of mules, I'd have a few tomahawks with me but particularly pipes andwhat they'd love above anything, a few cases of this "knicki-knicki" tradetobacco - you see, the tobacconist... ike, the big people who supplied thetobacco here and Melbourne and Western Australia... and they were handylittle cases about that deep from that deep - you see, usen't to cost us much,but it had quite a lot of "knicki-knicki" tobacco in it in sticks...Christ! youknow, I've got some sticks here. Do you know, out of curiosity - to see howlong it'd really last when I was 42 years of age I brought some down toSydney with me, and I used to save up all my old pipes, they was valuablewhen you're right out in the bush because the niggers would love the pipe -you see, and I used to smoke a pipe and when I used to smoke them prettybloody atrocious, I'd put them aside for when I was in wild native countryagain - you see, well I brought some of these down to Sydney with me andwhen I finally stayed down here and used to only go out every years for sixmonths, twelve months...two years as the case might be, I'd take those things

with me, but I still had some left when I settled down altogether here - yousee, and I come across them the other day, they're in one of my drawers inthere with other rubbish, it's hard to steal some "knicki-knicki" tobacco, I'vegot quite a handful of it in there...I wish to God, if I could only think whereit is in my...travelled east...when I shifted from the other house, all cases of curious and things they pack up with other things, see, this is my part of thehouse but it's her ladyship's and her friends up there you see, I just own aportion of this, so I put all the things in cases.

Tim: But anyway, you started to talk about how you got the confidence of theaborigines in the Kimberleys to study them.

I: Oh yes, I always got on well with the, I always, seemed to get on quitely andthat sort of thing, I never used to laugh at them, a lot of the blokes used toget them - strangers they came in - to tell you, they'd asked them point-blank about their spirit beliefs and that sort of thing, and then they'd think it wasvery smart - the white blokes - and he'd laugh shout out to the others, "Oh,him believe in ...something...something...something...spirit man jump up,when he die Jacky jump up all the as white man", which were their beliefswhen I was a boy...they're strong in reincarnation, their spirits are less than


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strong in reincarnation, but they're all sensible bloody beliefs, more sensiblethan these blokes who laughed at them, who didn't have any bloody beliefs,didn't know any bloody beliefs of any sort of business. But you mustn'tlaugh at them, they're nearly as bad hurt as the whites...if you laugh at awhite man, you hurts his bloody great ego don't you?

Tim: So you didn't laugh, you just listened and....

I: Oh no, I'd never laugh at them. And when they'd show me anything - anywildlife of interest sort of thing, or any interesting looking stone I'd take allinterest even if I'd seen them before, and knew more about it perhaps as Iwould ?? than they did themselves, always. I got on with them very wellindeed from the start.Now that put me in the position as I got to know them more and more andtravelled more and more, you gradually began to see what their beliefs wereand to understand them, and you got out of that terrible fix which a lot of blokes...professional...anthropology even used to fall to it naturally, the abois quite smart in his own way and he always wants to please the white man if there's a tomahawk or a pound of tobacco in it or anything to eat, or let alonea dress for his gin, he finds out and his cobbers, they all tell one anotherwhat the white man likes, what he wants ?? and then they've told...Godknows how many thousands and thousands of enquiries they got about thisand that and the other as the bloody population spread, they've got to knowmore and more of what the white man would like them to say that believe. Alot of this stuff that they thought had been printed in books you see, you caneasily understand it because the white man would be delighted, one of hisfond beliefs of what these barbarian savages believe is already felt by mostof you, see.

Tim; So that reinforced the white man's idea of what the aborigine ought tobelieve.

I: Yes. And more and more...as they got more more sophisticated you see, of course not all anthropologists they got a bit suspicious soon - not all butquite a lot of them. Like, new strange young blokes going out studyinganthropology for the first ?? test, a hell of a lot of them got caught, and Iused to...I'd learnt that even as a boy, even round about Lismore I learnt a lotof those tricks from the cunning old abos there - my cobbers down at thecreek, and their know-all old mothers...by Christ! they were real Tarzans

those old gins down there.Tim: Are you confidant that what you got in your books on the aborigines,

are you confident that that's pretty near the truth?

I: Oh yes, I've seen...they've let me see some of their different rights and thatsort of thing, after over half of a lifetime, of travelling and among them forand instant, often I'd go out with them in places where it'd be a difficulty toget a horse and that sort of thing...I'd bring along...you can carry flour and I'd


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bring along tucker and that sort of thing, you take me up to so and so up themountain and sort of I've travelled with them and slept in little gunyahs, Ican make a gunyah myself nearly as go

idriess interview with tim bowden

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