1428 ASSEIMBLY.]

I!4RIPrnSA11n A0rmblgWednesday, the 13th October, 1965

CONTENTS

ANNUAL ESTIMATES, 1985-66-Committee of Supply: General Debate--

Speakers on Financial Policy-Mr. Fletcher--------------1Mr. Hart...................14I

QUESTIONS ON NOTICL-continuedlMil Supplies at Albany : Summer DemandMotor Vehicles : Suspended objects-

Action against Offenders ... ..ie Banning from Windows ..weEffect on Drivers .. .. ..

Students : Exchange on Scholarship Basis--Government Scheme investigationof Possibilities.......

pap

1429

142914291429

1429

[fitBILLS-

Agricultural Products Act Amendment31-Returned. ... ..... 1.1437

Cattle Industry Compensation BIB1--eturned................ ........ 11437

City of Perth Parking Facilities Act Amend-ment BW1-2r. .. .1451

Education Act Amendment SI (No. 2)-Sr. _ ... .. .. .. .. 1431

Electoral Act Amendment Bill (No. 2)-Dr. 1437Fruit Cases Act Amendment Bill-Returned 1437Government Railways Act Amendment

Bill-Zr. .............. ......... 1484Lennacubbine Sports Council (Incorp-

orated) B-2r..... .. .... 1464Licensing Act Amendment SIBl-

2r....."...................1438Defeated I........1445

Local Government Act Amendment Bill(No. 2) -2r............ .... ._..1482

Marketing of Onions Act Amendment Bil--Returned ..................... 1437

Milk Act Amendment BIBl-Returned .. 1437Painters' Registration Act Amendment

BIB1-Corn . .. .. 1450State Rousing Death Benefit Scheme Dill-

Corn..... .... ..... .......... 1452Street Photographers Act Amendment BIll

-- Sr. .... 143Taxi-cars (Co-ordination and Control) Act

Amendment Bill-Dr. .. ... ... 1465The City Club (Private) Dill-Sr. .. 11481Traffic Act Amendment Bill (No. 2)-Sr. 1433Vermin Act Amendment Dill-Sr. ... 1488Western Australian Coastal Shipping Com-

mission Dill-Returned ......... .... 1451

MOTIONS-Hormone-lke Herbicides : Control ... 1488Superphospate-Produeilen and Use :

Inquiry by Select Committee........1445

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE-Aged and Other Patients : Domleilhmn'

Care by Nurses on Part-time Basis .... 1429Disater Relief Fund:, Creation.......1430Electoral Districts Act Amendment BMii

1966--Areas Defined : Estimated Ea-rolmeats, and Quotas.......... .... 1430

Housing-Housing at Exmouth-

Annual Value : Assessment forSewerage Rating...... .... 1428

Rentals and Sewerage Rates .... 1428Honsing for Migrants-East Belmont

Tradesmen's Fiats : Effect of Useon other Applicants .. ...1480

Land Board-Land Allocation : Preference to Local

Applicants .. ... .. ...1430Members and Qualifications ... .. L. 1430

The SPEAKER (Mr. Hearman) took theChair at 4.30 p.m., and read prayers.

QUESTIONS (10) ON NOTICE

HOUSING AT EXMOUTHRentals and Sewerage Rates

1.Mr. NORTON asked the Minister forHousing:(1) Has his department decided on

the rents to be charged far-(a) a two-bedroomed house, and(b) a three-bedroomed house.at Exmouth?

(2) Will sewerage rates be included inthe rentals, or will this rate bethe responsibility of the tenant?

Mr. O'NEIL replied:-(1) Rents at Exmouth at present

are:-(a) two-bedroomed house-E7 8s.

per week;(bJ three-bedroomed house-ac-

cording to type-£8 2s. per week,£9 7s. per week,£9 8s. 6d. per week.

These rents are subject to reviewin July, 1966.

(2) Sewerage rates are included inthe rentals charged.

Annual Value: Assessment for SewerageRating

2. Mr. NORTON asked the Minister forWorks:

How is the net annual value of adwelling assessed in respect ofthe sewerage rate at Exmouth?

Mr. ROSS HUJTCHINSON replied:-The next annual value will beassessed according to the provi-aions of the Country TownsSewerage Act as follows:-

a sum equal to the estimatedfull, fair, average amount ofrent at which the land mayreasonably be expected to letfrom year to year, on the as-sumnption (if necessary to bemade) that the letting isallowed by law, less a deduc-tion of forty pounds percentum for all out-goings..

1428

[Wednesday, 13 October, 1965.1 1429

AGED AND OTHER PATIENTSDomiciliarv Care by Nurses on

Part-time Basis3. Mr. PLETCHER asked the Minister

representing the Minister for Health:As he is no doubt aware that therecent Royal Perth Hospital re-Port reveals that hopes of-(a) increased recruitment of

student nurses, and(b) a reduction in student wast-

age ratehad not been realised, will he givefurther consideration to imple-menting the suggestion containedin my parliamentary question ofthe 27th September, 1962. regard-Ing domiciliary care of aged andother patients on a part-timeaward rate basis by qualifiednurses under the supervision oflocal metropolitan and countrygeneral practitioners?

Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON replied:The Government subsidises theSilver Chain Nursing Associationto provide a domiciliary service.Increased facilities for domiciliarycare are at present being discussedbetween the States and the Com-monwealth Government.

MOTOR VEH3ICLES: SUSPENDEDOBJECTS

Banning from Winzdows4. Mr. GRAHAM asked the Minister for

Police:(1) Is it still an offence under the

Traffic regulations for there tobe objects suspended or moving atfront or rear windows of vehicles?

(2) If so, can he explain the obviousspate of such devices in recentmonths?

Action against Offenders(3) In how many cases has action

been taken against offenders sincethe beginning of the year?

(4) If there is no regulation banningthese objects, when was it re-pealed and why?

Effect on Drivers(5) Does be agree that such objects

can distract the attention of thedriver, or otherwise lessen his per-ception?

Mr.(1)(2)

CRAIG replied:Yes.The novelty of different types ofdolls and mascots that come onthe market from time to time arean attraction to young personswho like to decorate their carswith such gimmicks.

(3) From the 1st January, 1965, to the12th October. 1965, 32 offendershave been cautioned and 15 prose-cuted.

(4) Answered by (1).(5) Yes. The present regulation has

been retained in the Road Traf-Reb Code, 1965. to come into opera-tion on the 1st January, 1966.Policing of the regulation will beintensified.

STUDENTS: EXCHANGE ONSCHOLARSHIP BASIS

Government Scheme: Investigation ofPossibilities

5. Mr. HALL asked the Minister forEducation:(1) Has the Government any scheme

in operation for the exchange ofstudents within or outside theCommonwealth on a scholarshipbasis?

(2) If not, would he investigate thepossibilities of such a scheme witha view to creating better world-wide understanding, good will, andcloser relationship?

Mr. LEWIS replied:(1) There is no State Government

scheme of the type mentioned, butthere are several other schemesopen to Western Australianstudents. The Government how-ever, does assist the Common-wealth in bringing students tothis State for the purpose of fur-thering their education by makingits own facilities available to thestudents.

(2) While quite agreeing with the aimof the honourable member in hisdesire to create internationalunderstanding, it is consideredthat this can be developed bymore effective ways than studentexchange.

BULK SUPPLIES AT ALBANYSummer Demand

6. Mr. HALL asked the Minister forAgriculture:(1) In view of the anxiety as to milk

supplies in Albany during thesummer season, bearing in mindthe increased population, 14,500shire and municipality, plustourist influx, can he give an as-surance that demand will be metadequately?

(2) If an assurance cannot be given,will he undertake to take thematter up with the board witha view to bringing about a moreequitable supply of milk duringthe summner season?

Mr,(1)(2)

NALDER replied:Yes.Answered by (1).

1430 [ASSEMBLY.]

DISASTER RELIEF FUND ELECTORAL DISTRICTS ACTCreation

7. Mr. HALL asked the Premier:(1) Has the Government taken any

steps towards the establishing ofa disaster relief fund, eithersingly or jointly with the Com-monwealth Government?

(2) If not, would the Government beprepared to investigate the possi-bilities of setting up such a fundto safeguard and protect primaryproducers from drought, fires, andother disasters?

Mr. BRAND replied:(1) and (2) As indicated in a reply

to similar questions last year, thecreation of a fund of this naturehas received consideration fromtime to time by State Govern-ments and has been considered onat least two occasions at Pre-

miers' Conferences.There are considerable practicaldifficulties in formulating an ac-ceptable scheme.

HOUSING FOR MIGRANTSEast Belmont Tradesmen's Flats:

Effect of Use on Other Applicants8. Mr. GRAHAM asked the Minister for

Housing:(1) How many of the tradesmen's

flats at East Belmont are still be-ing used for accommodation?

(2) Is it a fact that these are to bemade available to the Immigra-tion Department for accommodiat-Ing new arrivals?

(3) What is to happen to existingtenants?

(4) What effect will this arrange-ment have on other tenancy ap-plicants seeking accommodation?

(5) Are there any other areas wheresimilar arrangements are con-templated?

(6) If so, where and how many unitsof accommodation will be in-volved?

Mr. O'NEIL replied:(1) 62.(2) Consideration Is being given to

making 56 of these flats availableto the State Immigration Depart-ment.

(3) The existing tenants are beingoffered alternative accommoda-tion.

(4) The main effect on other tenancyapplicants will be that with theexception of the remaining flatsoffers of accommodation at theBelmont flats will no longer bemade.

(5) Yes.(6) Possibly a further 20 similar type

flats in areas Yet to be decided.

AMENDMENT BILL, 1965

Areas Defined: Estimated Enrolments,and Quotas

9. Mr. JAMIESON asked the Ministerrepresenting the Minister for Justice:(1) What is the estimated enrolment

in each of the three proposedareas defined in the ElectoralDistricts Act Amendment Bill, atpresent being considered by thisHouse?

(2) On these enrolments, what wouldbe the estimated quotas for the-(a) metropolitan Assembly dis-

tricts;(b) agricultural, mining and pas-

toral areas?

Mr. COURT replied:(1) On the enrolment figures as at

the 30th September, 1965, the es-timated enrolments in each of thethree Proposed areas defined inthe Electoral Districts Act Amend-ment Bill at present being con-sidered by the House are-(a) Metropolitan Area .... 264,394(b) North -West-Murchi-

son-Eyre Area ... 8,736(c) Agricultural, Mining

and Pastoral area ... 139.758

Total 412.888

(2) On these enrolments the estimatedquotas for the following areaswould be-(a) Metropolitan Area .... 11.495(b) Agricultural, Mining

and Pastoral Area .. , 5.823

LAND BOARD

Members and Qualifications

10. Mr. GRAHAM asked the Minister forLands:(1) W~hat are the names of members

of the land board who have actedduring the present year?

(2) What are their occupations andqualifications in each case?

(3) Is it a fact that a person fromthe locality where blocks areavailable for selection is appointedto the board in certain instances?

(4) If so, why?

Land Allocation: Preference to LocalApplicants

(5) Does he consider that in suchcases there would be a temptationto support a local applicant to theexclusion of others with greatermerit?

(Wednesday, 13 October, 1965.] 43

Mr. NALDER (for Mr. Bovell) replied;

(1) and (2) -Mr. R. J. Denton, AdministrativeOflicer; Lands and Surveys De-partment, Perth.Mr. E. W, Evensen; 0.0. Regis-tration and Deeds Branch; Landsand Surveys Department, Perth.Mr. H. E. Coffey: 0.0. Applica-tions and Inspections Branch;Lands and Surveys Department.Perth.Mr. N. 0. Ranson; Senior LandInspector;- Land and Surveys De-partment, Perth.Mr. E. C. de Luca; 0.0. Roadsand Reserves Branch; Lands andSurveys Department, Perth.Mr. E. E. O'Brien; Retired SeniorLand Inspector; Lands and Sur-veys Department, Perth.Mr. B. E. Lange; President ofShire of Albany,, Farmer.Mr. A. E. Wright: President ofShire of Lake Grace; Farmer.Mr. W. S. Paterson; President ofShire of Esperance; Farmer.Mr. L. A. Dunnet; Deputy Presi-dent, Shire of Nannup; Farmer.Mr. M. E. Roberts; President ofShire of Dandaragan; Farmer.Mr. S, F. Ravenhill; President ofShire of Denmark; Farmer.Mr. C. A. R. Shirley; Councillor.Shire of Albany; Farmer.Mr. B. M. Gillett; President, Shireof Mt. Marshall; Farmer.Mr. F. C. G. Lucas:, President,Shire of Carnamah;, Farmer.Mr. E. E. Teakle; President. Shireof Northampton; Farmer.Mr. V. J. McIntyre; President.Shire of Durnbleyung; Farmer.Mr. H. L Pennington; President.Shire of Wandering; Farmer.Mr. c. C. Roberts; President,Shire of Yilgarn; Farmer.Mr. P. W. Thomson; President.Shire of Coorow; Farmer.Mr. L. Broad; Vice-President,Shire of Yalgoo; Farmer.Mr. D. K. House; Member of Al-bany Zone Development Com-mittee; President of the LowerGreat Southern Regional Com-mittee and Regional Councils As-sociation of Western Australia:Councillor, Shire of Gnowan-genii); Farmer.Mr. S. C. Davies; Acting President.Shire of Mt. Marshall; Farmer.Mr. H. Williams; President, Shireof Mukinbudin; Farmer.Mr. C. S. Smith; President. Shireof Augusta-Margaret River; Far-mer.The late Mr. A. E. MeLernonformerly O.C. Applications andinspections Branch, also acted onthe land board for the first monthof this year.

Ord River onlyMr. R. J. Denton; AdministrativeOfficer; Lands and Surveys De-partment.Mr. P. L. Shier: Deputy Directorof Agriculture; Agriculture De-partment.Mr. J. R. Ewing; Deputy Under-Treasurer; Treasury Department.

(3) Yes.(4) To provide the land board with

special knowledge of local condi-tions.

(5) No.

THE CITY CLUB (PRIVATE) BILLThird Reading

Bill read a third time, on motion by Mr.Durack, and transmitted to the Council.

EDUCATION ACT AMENDMENTBILL (No. 2)Third Reading

MR. LEWIS (Moore-Minister forEducation) (4.43 p.m.]: I move-

That the Bill be now read a thirdtime.

MR. TONKIN (Melville-Deputy Leaderof the Opposition) t4.44 p.m.]: Some 40minutes ago representations were madeto mue on behalf of the Teachers' Union,and I was informed that the union is veryconcerned about these amendments, Didthe Minister assure the House that agree-ment had been reached with the union?

Mr. Lewis: I did.Mr. TONKIN: In these circumstances,

I suggest the debate might he adjourneduntil the position is clarified; because Ihave been informed that there was a depu-tation to the Di rec-tor -General and theActing Director-Ger tral on Tuesday, the14th September last. The union represen-tatives were Mr. N. 'E. Sampson (presidentof the union), an( Messrs. R. G. Moore,F. R. Evans, A. E. Hartley, R. Robinson,Dr. A. Nash, and J. Mv. Currie (generalsecretary). The discussion centred in thedepartment's proposals which are em-bodied in the Bill.

The first proposal was that applicantswho applied for advertised positions shouldbe required to adhere to the preferencesstated in the original application. TheBill seeks to ensure that this is so. Inarguing this point, the notes of the depu-tation show that-

Mr. Sampson said that while theunion could understand the depart-ment's intention it believed that therewere occasions when teachers oughtto be permitted to change the orderof their preferences. There werecompassionate reasons and there werereasons which arose from lack of in-formation at the time of making the

1431

[ASSEMBLY.]

original application. He referred toPossible changes in the availability ofhousing in any Particular place andto a Situation where the advertise-r.tnt had not given a clear pictureof the relative attractiveness of posi-tions in two schools.

The union would not support capri-cious changes which only humbuggedother teachers. It believed, however.ihat there should be a discretionarypowver to allow changes and that thisshould reside with the tribunal.

The notes of the deputation continue-The Director-General thanked the

uni on for the suggestion. He agreedthat this was a satisfactory solution.He wondered If some more informa-tion on housing and other relevantdetails would assist applicants intheir initial selections.

I am informed the union went away fromthe deputation under the impression thatthe Bill would provide for discretionarypower to reside in the tribunal so that ifa teacher, upon appeal, desired to re-arrange his order of preferences, it wouldrest with the tribunal to make a decision.

The Bill gives no such discretionaryPower at all. It provides that once ateacher has indicated his preferencesthere shall be no alteration of them. TheTeachers' Union considers It has beenbadly let down in regard to this matter.

The other proposal-and the positionis not quite so clear here-is. that part-time teachers, or teachers on supply, shallbe prevented from appealing againstteachers in the permanent service. Theunion, generally, agrees with this; but ithad a. discussion with regard to the situa-tion that could arise where persons whoare outside the service, and who thereforecannot be regarded as permanent teachers,are appointed to positions In the service.The union considers that in such circum-stances part-time teachers should havethe right of appeal to a tribunal and thatthe tribunal should then decide the appealon the merits of the question. The Bill,if it becomes law, will give the part-timeteacher no such right to appeal againstanybody. I quote from the notes of thedeputation with regard to this mnatter-

Mr. Sampson asked the Director-General if he would amplify the de-partment's reasons for seeking thischange.

The Director-General said that hebelieved that when the union and thedepartment drew up the machineryfor the present Act it was intendedthat appeals would be for full-timepermanent teachers only.

Dr. Neal said that the tribunal hadreferred in its report to certain diffi-culties in the present situation. Under

the Act the tribunal could hear ap-peals by supply and part-time teachers.However, only the Minister could ap-point such teachers to the permanentstall.

Mr. Sampson said that there werecertain Positions particularly in thetechnical division and perhaps moreparticularly in the trades branchwhere persons from outside the ser-vice may receive appointments tovacant positions and supply teachersin the same field of work who werePerhaps more properly regarded as onprobation could not appeal under thechange proposed. While as a matterof general principle the union couldcome down on the aide of the perma-nent teacher. Where outside partieswere brought into the picture by re-commending them the union believedthat appeals should be open to any-body on the staff.

With that I agree. Surely a teacher onsupply, or a part-time teacher who is inthe employ of the Education Departmentof Western Australia. should have theright of appeal-not the right to get thejob, but the right of appeal against theappointment of somebody who is not inthe service but who has been brought infrom outside to fill a position.

The Bill will deny such right of appealto part-time teachers, and the union feelsit was given somewhat of an assurance-although not a clear-cut assurance in thisInstance-in respect of this matter, be-cause the notes of the deputation say-

Dr. Neal said that perhaps thesolution lay in more specific definitionof the various categories of supplyteachers.

That indicated that the department ad-mitted there was something In the union'scontention and was prepared to look forsome solution in order to meet the posi-tion. The Bill does nothing in that direc-tion, and I am wondering if the Govern-ment is in a position to Indicate whetherthat aspect has been looked at and a solu-tion found, because we are now in a posi-tion that the House was advised by theMinister in his second reading speech thatagreement on these questions had beenreached with the Teachers' Union, but theunion now says that no such agreementhas been reached on provisions in the Bill.It does say that agreement had beenreached at a deputation but on a differentbasis to that which is now being put for-ward.

in the circumstances I suggest that itwould be wrong for the House to pass thisBill, because to do so would be to pass it onWrong information, and we should at leastbold the situation where it is until theMinister can examine it, clarify it, andexplain the true situation to the Mouse.

[Wednesday. 13 October, 1965.1 1433

Personal ExplanationMr. LEWIS (Minister for Education):

In view of the remarks made by the DeputyLeader of the Opposition, I have no ob-jection to having the third reading of theBill deferred.

The SPEAKER (Mr. Hearman): TheMinister cannot do that. He is replying,and therefore closing the debate.

Mr. LEWIS: In that case. I will have tomove that the debate be adjourned. Isthat in order?

The SPEAKER: No; the Minister hasalready spoken.

Mr. LEWIS: I1 will certainly have someinquiries made; but I do not know how toProceed at the moment.

The SPEAKER: I think all the Ministercan do is to make an explanation.

Mr. LEWIS: I want to explain to theHouse that when I made the statementsduring my second reading speech thatagreement had been reached with theunion I did so in all good faith, because Imade a specific point of contacting theDirector of Education and asked: "Is thereany disagreement with the union in re-gard to this?" and he replied, "No; agree-ment has been reached with the union onthis." So I felt fully justified in makingthe remarks I did. In view of the com-ments that have been made by the DeputyLeader of the Opposition I will, however,have the statements fully Investigated.

The SPEAKER: I will accept that as anexplanation by the Minister and suggestthat he have someone on the back benchesmove that the debate be adjourned.

Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr.I. W. Manning.

BILLS (3): THIRD READING

1. Vermin Act Amendment Bill.Bill read a third time, on motion by

Mr. Nalder (Minister for Agricul-ture), and transmitted to theCouncil.

2. Street Photographers Act AmendmentBill.

Bill read a third time, on motion byMr. Nalder <Minister for Agricul-ture), and passed.

S. Traffic Act Amendment Bill (No. 2).Bill read a third time, on motion by

Mr. Craig (Minister for Traffic),and transmitted to the Council.

HORMONE-LIKE HERBICIDES

Control: MotionMR. SEWELL (Oeraidton) [4.54 pm.]:

I move-That In the opinion of this House

the Agricultural Department shouldimmediately control the manufacture,

sale, distribution and use of hormone-like herbicides and similar substances.so as to prohibit their use, exceptunder strict departmental supervision.

In moving this motion I suggest to theHouse that only a small proportion of thepeople in Western Australia fully realisethe dangers to which some of our indus-tries could be subjected by various herbi-cides and sprays which are being used atpresent by growers of various crops. Onlythose who have had close contact withsome of these herbicides appreciate howdangerous they are and the damage theycan cause.

We all know the advances that havebeen made in various fields by scientists,and Particularly agricultural scientists inthe Production of fertilisers in anendeavour to make a few blades of grassgrow where only one grew before, and toincrease production generally, whether itbe cereal, fruit, or vegetable production.

These advances have been particularlynoticeable in the improvement that hasbeen made in pasture development inWestern Australia. Together with In-creased production of foodstuffs andpastures and the improvements that havebeen made to our fertilisers, such as arti-ficial superphosphates, there has been anincrease in the production and distribu-tion of herbicides and insecticides whichare used to control the growth of manyweeds and to destroy pests of all sorts andsizes which are the bane of producers andmarket gardeners in this State.

The Particular one I have in mind atthe moment is the hormone-like herbi-cide known as 2, 4-D. A great deal oftrouble has been experienced with thisherbicide in the Oeraldton district in itsuse on the tomato crop, and the tomatogrowers are fully aware of the dangersthat accompany its use. It would not beany stretch of the imagination to say thattomato gardens in Carnarvon and inGeraldton, and the vineyards in the UpperSwan district of the metropolitan areacould be destroyed in a few hours by un-scrupulous or careless persons using thishormone-like herbicide 2, 4-Dl.

To emphasise the point I wish to makeon this herbicide I seek the indulgence ofthe House to quote from the July issue ofthe journal published by the Departmentof Agriculture, an article which has beenwritten by Mr. 0. R. W. Meadly, M.Sc.,who is the officer-in-charge of the Weedsand Seeds Branch of the Department ofAgriculture. I want it to be clearly under-stood that I am of the opinion that thisofficer thoroughly understands his workand would be very valuable to the Stateof Western Australia. This article byMr. Meadly is one of the cleanest and mostconcise articles I have read on any sub-ject. It deals with the situation whichgrowers can see in front of them at this

1434 [ASSEMBLY.3

stage of the research that is conductedinto the study of herbicides and insecti-cides which have been referred to by me.The article reads as follows:-

Damage Caused by Hormone-LikeHerbicides

In a short period of time they havebecome accepted in a similar mannerto insecticides and fungicides and areperforming a comparable service.

Mr. Meadly refers to the selective actionof herbicides such as 2,4-D and MCPA.The article continues--

During 1964, in Western Australiamore than one million acres of cerealswere sprayed with 2,4-D. As a result,both quality and yield have been im-proved.

One important advantage of thehormone-like herbicides over someother weed killing chemicals, particu-larly arsenicals, is that they are re-latively non-toxic to animals, Stockmay be grazed in paddocks immedi-ately after spraying and no specialprecautions are necessary for sprayoperators.

Despite their obvious value to agri-culture, however, these chemicals cancause appreciable losses. Plants otherthan weeds can be destroyed and, forthis reason, the term herbicide ispreferred to weed-killer. Damagemay be caused to the crop beingsprayed or to cultivated plants in thevicinity.

In Western Australia, 2,4-D is ap-plied mainly to cereals which arerelatively resistant, but instances ofinjury to the crop do occur. Wheatis more tolerant than oats, with evensome variation between the varietiesof wheat. The risk is greatest withthe ester of 2,4-D, with MCPA theleast likely to cause damage and theamine of 2,4-fl intermediate.

The recommended growth stage forspraying wheat is when the plants arestooling freely but before the "boot"stage, when the head is evident as aswelling in the leaf sheath.

if sprayed too early, various rmal-formations are likely to appear. Clubshaped, twisted or branched heads arcformed with an irregular arrange-ment of the spikelets, referred to as"scatter heads." The glumes maybecome fused, the number of spikeletsin each group reduced and a propor-tion of the florets aborted. Symptomsalso include thickened stems, yellow-ing, reduction in height and delayedmaturity. Spraying at the "boot"stage does not usually cause abnior-malities but reduced grain setting hasbeen attributed to it.

Clovers are more susceptible thancereals and when they occur in a crop,particularly in the year of sowing,

additional care must be taken. 2,4-Damine or MCPA is then usuallyrecommended, with 2,4-D ester onlybeing used under special circum-stances. Even when injury is not ap-parent, flowering of Clovers may bedelayed to the extent of preventingseed setting.

Damage to plants other than thosebeing sprayed can be caused in anumber of ways.

What I have referred to applies tocereals, in particular to wheat, and toclovers. No matter how extraordinarythis statement might seem, the use ofsome types of herbicides could causedamage not only to crops, but also totomatoes, vines, roses, and such like. Theiruse could damage the main wealth of thisState-, that is, the wheat craps. The articleContinues-

Spray DriftThe extent of spray drift de-

pends on a number of factors, includ-ing droplet size, type of formulation,wind velocity and height of release ofthe spray.

Small droplets are carried for longerdistances and the droplet size shouldbe kept as large as possible conmmen-surate with effective treatment. Thiscan be done by selecting an appro-priate nozzle and not using a pressurehigher than is necessary. For mostspraying 30 to 40 lb. per square inchis adequate.

Due to a lower evaporation factor,greater drift can be expected withoil-based sprays and when oil is usedas a solvent. Spraying should bedone under calmn conditions, especi-ally when susceptible crops are in thevicinity; spray wands should not beelevated. Drift is accentuated by highmounting of nozzles and also withaerial application.

When the wind velocity is high,plants can be affected at distances ofmore than a mile.Volatility

Damage has been caused by vapourarising from sprayed herbage or fromequipment containing a volatile for-mulation of 2,4-D or 2,4,5-T.

The risk is greatest with the esterof 2,4-D and increases with risingtemperatures. This means that evenif the wind direction is away from a,susceptible crop at the time of spray-Ing, damage can be caused subse-quently by a change in wind asso-ciated with the formation of vapour.Contaminated Equipment

Frequently plants have been killedor severely damaged by applying aninsecticide or fungicide wth equip-ment used previously for hormone-like herbicides, even after carefulcleaning. Separate equipment forherbicides and other Pesticides is

1434

[Wednesday, i3 October, 1965.] 1435

desirable under all circumstances butparticularly with sensitive crops suchas tomatoes, vines and cotton.

If the use of the equipment formore than one purpose cannot beavoided it should be cleaned thoroughlyand restricted to plants relative resi s-tant to 2,4-D. Wooden vats, rubber,leather or plastic sections (includinghoses) should be replaced.

If amine formulations of 2,4-D havebeen used the sprayer should bewashed thoroughly with water andfilled with a solution containing onegallon of household ammonia in 100gallons of water. After removal 24hours later, the equipment shouldagain be washed thoroughly withwater. With oil formulations, Includ-ing esters, kerosene should be used forthe preliminary washings followed bya solution containing 5 lb. tni-sodiumphosphate in 100 gallons of water.

Empty containers should be buriedor, at least, dumped where they areunlikely to be salvaged or cause dam-age due to vaporisation. They shouldcertainly not be used as incineratorsor as containers for any material.Contaminated Pesticides

There have been several instancesin this State of tomatoes and vinesbeing affected by spraying with pesti-cides containing small amounts of2,4-Dl, even though manufacturerstake elaborate Precautions to preventcontamination during preparation.

Agricultural chemicals such as in-secticides, fungicides and fertilisersshould not be stored with hormone-likeherbicides, particularly the esters of2,4-Dl. They can readily absorbvapour arising from opened or dam-aged containers and only a trace isnecessary to damage susceptible crops.symptoms

As already mentioned, grape vines,tomatoes and cotton are among themost sensitive crops, although othercultivated plants can be damagedseverely. Most vegetables includinglettuce, Peas and beans are readilyaffected and luPins have often beendamaged.

Effects on wheat have been de-scribed and are illustrated.

In general the first indication ofdamage is usually a twisting or bend-ing of the stems and leaves due todifferential growth rates. A thicken-ing of the leaves and stems mayoccur, often resulting in splitting.Yellowing or reddening of leaves is notunusual and, if enough of the chemicalenters the plant, growth will cease,followed by death of the tissue.

With sub-lethal doses, often causedby spray drift or slightly contamin-ated equipment, interesting secondary

growvth responses may occur. Nor-mally broad leaves become narrow orfinely divided, with the green colourdisappearing from the veins. Theterm "shoestring' is often applied tothis condition. Floral parts may bemultiplied and fasciations appear.Fruits, including tomatoes, may beformed without seeds.

Slight malformations, particularlyin cereals, may not adversely affectproduction. Severe damage, however,has caused total loss of tomato cropsand vine and cotton yields have beenreduced considerably.

Enquiries received by the Depart-ment of Agriculture indicate thatabnormalities caused by hormone-likeherbicides are often confused withdiseases. This Is understandable assome fungal and virus infections caninduce similar symptoms.

TreatmentWhen plants are affected by 2,4-D,

remedial action that can be taken isvery limited, particularly in the caseof large-scale crops. Some pruningof malformed portions has assistedwith tomatoes and grapes.

If garden shrubs, such as hibiscus,are only slightly affected they canbe expected to revert to normalgrowth without treatment but thiscan be expedited by removing affect-ed sections and watering regularly.

Recommendations(1) Only spray with 2,4-fl and 2,4,5-T

under calmi conditions.(2)

(3)

Do not use a higher pressure thanis necessary.Take added Precautions whensensitive crops such as tomatoes,vines and lupins are in the vicin-ity.

(4) Avoid using the volatile esterwhen it presents additionalhazards.

(5) Retain spraying equipment usedto apply 2,4-13 for that purposeonly.

(6) Do not store 2,4-D along withother Pesticides or fertilisers.

(7)(8)

Destroy empty containers.Do not leave vehicles or equip-ment used for spraying in thevicinity of gardens or sensitivecrops , particularly when the tem-perature is high.

That article was written by a personwhom I regard as the leader in thisclass of research in Western Australia. Toemphasise some of the points which hemade, the layman would wonder how itwas possible for chemists to make such alethal weapon, in the form of the variousinsecticides. It is well known, and 1 haveseen it happening at Geraldton, that after

1436 ASSEM~BLY.]

a spray has been applied, and the con-tainer has been emptied and left standingwithout a lid, the garden in close proximityhas been affected. That happened al-though there was not a teaspoonful ofspray left in the container, but the fumesfrom the spray spread as a result of arise in temperature. This happens par-ticularly when the sprays are oil based.The fumes from them will travel far anddestroy plant life, particularly tomatoesand vines, in close Proximity. Several in-stances have occurred where tomato plantsand vines have been damaged.

That leads me to refer to the positionin which the growers in Geraidton foundthemselves in July or August last. Theloss which occurred in the tomato cropwas very heavy, but the total has notyet been assessed, because the season hasnot been concluded. Unfortunately theend is very near, and this resulted fromthe use of the insecticide 2,4-D.

Last Year the Singapore market took38,000 cases of tomatoes from Geraldton.and that represented a handy source ofincome to the State, and particularly tothe Geraldton district. This year thatmarket was supplied with 21,000 cases, be-cause the season closed Much earlier, andthat will probably result in the loss ofsome portion of the Singapore market.That was caused by the trouble experiencedin the use of herbicides.

In another Part of the article Mr.Meadly referred to damage caused byaerial spraying. it will be recalled thatlast year this House passed the Damageby Aircraft Bill, which provides thatdamages may be recovered where loss iscaused by liquid and liquid spray. Unlesssome control is exercised by the Govern-ment, we could find some producers in onearea applying a spray to eliminate Capetulip or wild radish, and completelyruining the vineyards located severalmiles away. The loss would be greaterin the case of vines than tomatoes, becausethe tomato plant grows rapidly. Threecrops of tomatoes can be planted a year,and the plants do not live for a longperiod.

I want to emphasise the damage thatcan be caused by herbicides. In theOeraldton area on one occasion a spraywas used along a road, but with asoutherly wind blowing several days after-wards the market gardeners on the sideof the hill-who had no idea that the par-ticular type of spray was being used inthe district-found their tomato Plantsgradually taking on a bluish tinge. Theofficers of the Department of Agriculturefound out what was wrong with them,and anyone with experience of the effectof these herbicides would know how todeal with them. There is no mistake aboutthe damage that can be caused by hor-moxie-like herbicides. There is no stoppingthem when they are used, and they are

all-powerful, and are capable of destroyingPlant life. These sprays are very dan-gerous.

In various news items broadcast overthe radio and Published In the Press,I can remember that last year operatorswere reported to be spraying in the cotton-fields near the Kimberleys and those menwere overcome by fumes, and, I believe,had to have hospital treatment. We didnot hear much more about that. It Issomething that is happening nearly everyday of the week in some part of the State.Men who are handling fertilisers may havea skin that is allergic to artificial super-phosphates, the effect of which is muchless than that of the hormone-like her-bicides used In connection with the de-struction of the various weeds we arecursed with.

Some action should have been taken be-fore this to ensure proper control overthe manufacture, sale, and distribution ofherbicides, including their use; and, ifmembers wish, there could be the samecontrol over fertilisers. There needs to bevery strict control and supervision by theDepartment of Agriculture. Possibly therewill be a cry that more inspectors wouldbe needed In order to control the manu-facture, distribution, and use of theseherbicides, but I say this Parliament ofWestern Australian cannot afford to allowthe present state of affairs to continue:because, as I said previously, some personwith a twisted or warped mind could,within a short time, completely destroythe grape crop in our Upper Swan area,apart from tomatoes and anything elsewe may have.

I would like to hear other members inconnection with this matter. I am surethey have had some experience with thedamage that can be caused, even in theirown home gardens. I have heard it saidthat people in the metropolitan area withyoung rose bushes are worried over thefact that they may have some sort ofdisease from the use of herbicides. Mem-bers will find that Mr. Meadly touched onthat in his article and said that on noaccount should these hormone-like herbi-cides be stored alongside fertilisers foruse in the home garden. Perhaps it willnot be long before we have superphos-phates possessing radioactive qualities.

I ask the Minister just how far we areto go in this matter; and how far we aregoing to allow agricultural chemists andscientists to continue making these pro-ducts, which they are doing in all goodfaith. They are doing a good Job; butwe believe there should be some strongmeasure of control, as I said before, overthe manufacture, sale, distribution, anduse of these herbicides. We all know pro-ducers experience enough troubles duringthe 12 months in which they hope to de-rive an income without having somethinglike this foisted on them-something that

1436

(Wednesday. 13 October, 1965.1 13

could ruin them in a very few minutes.These hormone-lke herbicides could ruina vineyard, a tomato garden, even a nur~s-cry, where a man was dependent upon thesale of Young rose trees and that sort ofthing for his living.

Members will recall that In the firstpages of this article, Mr. Meadly dealtextensively with the damage that can becaused to pastures and cereals; and thereare Illustrations in the journal to showthe malformations that can take placeafter plants have been affected by thesehormone-like herbicides, previously refer-red to by me.

I move this motion in all seriousness andhope the House will agree to some measureof control by the Department of Agricul-ture on the manufacture, sale, distribution,and use of hormone-like herbicides.

Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr.Nalder (Minister for Agriculture).

1.2.3.

4.5.

BILLS (5): RETrURNEDCattle Industry Compensation Bill.Milk Act Amendment Bill.Agricultural Products Act Amend-

ment Bill.Fruit Cases Act Amendment Bill.Marketing of Onions Act Amendment

Bill.Bills returned from the Council with-

out amendment,

ELECTORAL ACT AMENDMENTBILL (No. 2)Second Reading

MR. TOMS (Bayswater) [5.23 p.m.]: Imove-

That the Bill be now read a secondtime.

I would like to indicate that this Billhas one purpose and one purpose only.Members may recall that last year I intro-duced a similar Bill for the purpose ofeliminating, as far as possible, the abusesrelating to postal voting. That is all thisBIll seeks to do.

For the benefit of new members, andpossibly of members who were not in theChamber at the time last year when Igave classic examples--perhaps thosemembers have not had time to read Han-sard to find out what it was all about-maybe I should relate the Particularcases which came to my notice duringthe last Federal election.

I would like to refer Particularly to one"C"-olass hospital where I had been askedby the sister of a patient to make arrange-ments for that Patient's Postal vote. Wefilled in the application form and for-warded it to the department, and lateron in the week I went back to find outwhether the vote had arrived for this par-tioular patient. He had not received it.

He was aL bed patient, so I asked thematron whether the Postal vote had ar-rived. To my amazement she had to gothrough a pile of ballot papers, containingfrom two to perhaps three dozen. Whilegoing through them she said, "Half of thepeople who are getting these ballot paperscan hardly scratch themselves."

In other words, it Indicated someonehad been to the hospital and filled in ap-plication forms. I do not know who sentthese people, but later on possibly some-one was going to come back and completethe ballot papers, That was the way thevote was being taken.

I spoke to the matron of another "C"-class hospital and asked her what the pro-cedure was for taking postal votes in herinstitution. As with the other matron,she informed me that at least 50 Per cent.of the people in that hospital would beincapable of casting an intelligent vote. Ibelieve her reaction to postal voting wasa1 sound one, and It would be all rightif it were adopted. She said that in theevent of a person being capable of havinga postal vote, she indicated the fact tothe relatives of that person so they couldmake arrangements. That was quite a,good Idea.

At the tine, the matron asked me ifI would like to go around with one ofthe sisters and see the patients. I didnot do so as I did not want to do that.That was her particular method; and ifevery person who was able to vote didso, there was no point in my going aroundwith any particular sister-or nurse, forthat matter. This is one case whereeverything seems to be all fight. However,on the other hand, at the "C"-class hos-pital which I first instanced, there wasa pile of ballot papers and, as the matronsaid, the majority of the patients couldnot even scratch themselves. Yet, forsome reason, they made application forpostal votes.

Mr. O'Neil: These ballot papers werein envelopes when you saw them?

Mr. TOMS. I think the honourablemember would have seen the papers. Theywere encased in an envelope. I did nothave anything to do with that part ofit. I believe there is not one memberIn this House who would be able to saythat he had not seen the postal-votesystem abused. It is a well-known factthat at noon on the day of nominations,It is almost a case of the whistle hasblown and there is ank invasion of certainhospitals for the purpose of getting theseballot application papers filled In. I donot think It is right; and I do not believeany member in this House would believeIt to be right for people to be pesteredin hospitals by an influx of People seek-ing to take advantage of their Position.

I do not blame the Electoral Depart-ment for what is happening, as it is per-mitted under the Act at the present time.

1437

1438 [ASSEMBLY.]

Nor do I blame the sisters at the hospitals,as I indicated last year. My contention isthat there are zealous party supporterswho do these things; and, in the interestsof the hospital authorities and thePatients, the taking of these votes shouldbe under the direction of the ElectoralDepartment.

Members will notice that the Bill pro-vides for a rather wide personnel to takethese votes: and I believe it is somethingthat should be done by the method laiddown in the measure. A member of theElectoral Department or an officer ap-pointed by the department could thenfind out from any hospital which patientswere capable of taking votes; and couldalso ascertain, from the hospital records.the names of people who were not ableto make an intelligent vote. The namescould be listed in the Electoral Depart-ment. This would save the departmentthe trouble of forwarding notices askingPeople why they did not vote, because thedepartment would be in full possession ofthe facts in regard to these particularpeople.

I commend this Bill to the House andI hope other members will have the cour-age of their convictions, when the debateis resumed, and perhaps be able to tell thisHouse of other glaring instances wherethe postal voting system has been abusedand where people, unable to make postalvotes, have been preyed upon. There is noother word for it. I believe that anyonewho takes advantage of a person who hasnot his full faculties about him, can beclassed as nothing less than a vulture.

I hope that on this occasion the mem-bers of the Government will see the wis-dom in this measure so that postal vot-ing will be properly organised and carriedout under proper supervision.

Mr. O'Neil: Would this Bill apply onlyto postal votes from institutions and hos-pitals?

Mr. TOMS: It could do, because provi-sion is made for the electoral officer toauthorise certain people. I leave it to theelectoral officer because I believe he shouldbe in a position to know whether a per-son can be trusted to do the job.

Mr. O'Neil: A postal vote will only bearranged by the authorised officer fromthe Electoral Department?

Mr. TOMS: Yes. The Electoral Depart-ment will have the entire control of thevoting. For the information of members,this amendment will not affect the north-west.

Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr.Court (Minister for Industrial Develop-ment).

LICENSING ACT AMENDMENTBILL

Second Reading: DefeatedDebate resumed, from the 6th October,

on the following motion by Mr. Tonkin(Deputy Leader of the Opposition),

That the Bill be now read a secondtime.

MR. COURT (Nedlands-Minister forIndustrial Development) [5.32 p.m.] Ihave studied the Bill introduced by theDeputy Leader of the Opposition, and thecomments he made during his secondreading speech. I have also sought advicefrom the Minister controlling this particu-lar Act; and he, in turn, has had the mat-ter studied by his officers and by theLicensing Court.

In the first place, I think we should haveclose regard for the intention of section 39of the Licensing Act. A gallon licensewas originally granted to a grocer as anadjunct to his business and a means bywhich he could satisfy his customers inrespect of the supply of liquor wherelicensed premises were not available ornear at hand. I think it is very import-ant that we should have full regard for tilebackground of the original circumstancesunder which these licenses were Providedfor in the Statutes.

The emphasis was on the grocer's shopbeing permitted to sell alcohol in quanti-ties of not less than one gallon. Most ofus agree that this was our understanding ofthe position, although in recent times-asmentioned by the honourable member-this view appears to have changed verydrastically. In other words, it would ap-pear that the whole spirit behind theoriginal licenses has changed.

From time to time considerable Pressurehas been brought to bear by the GallonLicensees' Association, through the retailgrocers' association, to break down the re-strictions contained in the Licensing Actin respect of gallon licenses and to havethe Licensing Act amended so that gallonlicensees may sell single bottles. The hon-ourable member correctly related, in hissecond reading speech, the provisions ofsection 39. It is important to note thatthe amending Bill passed by Parlia-ment last year-1964-removed anobligation which previously applied in re-spect of the requirement that gallonlicensees should enter the name of thepurchaser of the liquor in a book kept forthe purpose.

The 1964 Bill, which was introduced byThe Hon. E. Mv. Heenan, M.L.C., containeda clause which eliminated the necessity forgallon licensees to enter in their books thequantity of liquor sold-the same provisionas in this present Bill before us. It willbe recalled that at that time the Govern-ment opposed this measure: it objected to

1438

[Wednesday, 13 October, 1965.],43

what was sought to be achieved. The Gov-ernment saw this move as an undesirablestep and one which would make it harderfor the Police to keep a watch on theactivities of some gallon licensees suspectedof offending under the Illicit Sale of LiquorAct.

I emphasise this point somewhat be-cause in this type of dealing we know thatthe majority of people, under any licens-lng system, try to do what is right becausethey want to obey the law and practisewithin the spirit of the law. However.there are always some who do not actwithin the law and It is this minoritywhich probably brings two-thirds-if 'not,80 per cent.-of the Statutes on to theStatute book in the form in which we findthem. We have to watch very closely theactivities of this small minority group. Iam informed by the Minister concerned-who, in turn, gets his information fromthe people who have to police the legisla.-tion-that experience has proved this tobe correct.

Despite the fact that the LegislativeCouncil agreed to one portion of the Billintroduced by Mr. Heenan, the necessityfor the gallon licensees to enter the salesof liquor made by them was retained. Inthis regard the honourable member Putforward the argument that when one pro-vision was removed, the other became in-effective. Superficially, one might be in-clined to agree. However, on analysis andas a result of a close study of the informa-tion made available in connection with thework of those supervising the licenses.I have to agree with the authorities thatthe Present Provision has a practical valuein the policing of the licenses; and a valuewhich is considered sufficiently importantby the Government for us to want to re-tain it.

In this current year, 1965, the gallonlicensees made a further attempt to bepermitted to sell single bottles: and this,as members will know, was objected to bythe Government. We have good reasonfor this and we think that the suggestionis foreign to the concept of the originalgallon license provisions. If the originalconcept means anything, which we thinkit does, then this desire to sell single bottlesis quite out of character with it.

I cannot help feeling-whether or notthe honourable member is aware of theresult of his own action In bringing thisforward-that agreement to this Billwould Provide an easier situation for somegallon licensees-and I emphasise some,not all; and I would go so far as to saythe minority-to break the law and, con-sequently, wake it much more difficult forthe Liquor Inspection Branch of the PoliceDepartment to keep a close watch on theiractivities.

in the course of seeking information sothat I could better appreciate the practicalsituation that exists, I was able to see

papers which demonstrated to me that thepolice in the course of their inspectionsdid, in effect, gain some assistance in theirdetection work and inspection workthrough the present provision. In effect,quite a few worth-while cases have beensuccessfully studied; and as a result, eithera prosecution has been made or some cor-rection has been made within the particu-lar premises. That was as a result of thepresent records which are kept. In spiteof the fact that names are not now incor-porated, it is felt that if this provision wereremoved the task of the police assigned tothis work would be more difficult. I donot think it is time to contemplate any-thing which will make any type of illicittrade any easier than otherwise might bethe case. I do not think any memberswould want it to be mnade easier, particu-larly having regard for juvenile drinking.Anything we can do to prevent that beingpractised is worth while. If the system isa little cumbersome, I do not think thatis too big a price to pay for some formof prevention.

The honourable member seems to be un-aware of the considerable value whicharises from keeping such records as arerequired by the present section, as amendedin 1964. As a matter of fact, the honour-able member has emphasised that his moveis a desirable one in the opinion of theretail grocers' association, and does not ap-pear to have any regard for the undesir-able result of agreement with this Bill.In saying that, I am conscious of the factthat the honourable member expressed theview that the legislation in its presentform had no Particular value, and I wouldunderstand that he was sincere. How-ever, I do tell the honourable member thatas a, result of the check which is availableunder the present provision in theStatute, there is a practical value.

Mr. Tonkin: Why keep this result toyourself ?

Mr. COURT: I am not keeping it to my.self.

Mr. Tonkin: You have not told us any-thing. You have stated that you haveseen these things. What things?

Mr. COURT: I have said quite definitelythat as a result of the present legislatlotit has been possible for officers engagedon this work to detect cases where therehave been deficiencies in records of stockSome of these cases would involve actiorif they were deliberate evasions of thelaw. Other cases, as has been the posi-tion for many years, only involve a criti-cal study of the records and stocks witi.the co-operation of the proprietor. Ithink that members know enough aboulthe methods used by the detection and in-spection officers. They are not out tehound people. In most cases there is acommonsense working arrangement be-tween those people and the proprietors it

1439

[ASSEMBLY.]

the study of the records. The inspectorsrealise that those people do not have ful~l-time bookkeepers, and records cannot bekept to the nth degree. in my experiencethe discrepancies are worked out, and Ifthere is a satisfactory explanation given.it is accepted: and if not. there has to bea prosecution. It is as simple as that, andthe Present records can disclose defici-encies which assist the police in theirwork of supervising this legislation.

There are examples of the type of resultwhich quite frequently occurs from thepolice inspection of gallon licensees' re-cords. and the police view previously ex-pressed last year was to the eff ect that itwas highly desirable to retain the sectionof the Act as it was prior to the amend-ment in 1964.

Mr. Tonkin: Did they say why?Mr. COURT: Because of the advantage

of having the name of the purchaser. How-ever, it does not mean to say that thedeletion of this Provision requiring thename made the section completely Inopera-tive. I remind the honourable memberthat, at the time, the Government objectedto the deletion of the provision aboutnames, even though some people mighthave given fictitious names, as he sug-gested. At that time we objected to thedeletion: but the Legislative Council andthis Chamber agreed to modify the Billand amend it. if Mr. Heenan had hadhis way the whole provision would havebeen removed as Is now proposed by thehonourable member.

I come back to my point. The policewere emphatic that it would be stronger-that is, the Act-if the names of thepurchasers had to be inserted in a book.But the fact that Parliament decided thatnames should no longer be recorded doesnot mean that the section is completelyineffective. After reviewing its practicaleffect, the Government is of the view thatthe present provision should be retained.

The books of gallon licensees are in-spected quarterly by officers either fromsuburban or country police stations, orfrom the liquor inspection branch. This.like all forms of audit of this type, hasboth a moral and a practical effect. Inaddition, the Liquor inspection Branchmakes checks on books where it is sus-pected that a gallon licensee is breachingthe law. A number of prosecutions areobtained from an inspection of the books,and the removal ofl the requirement by thegallon licensee to record sales, as hasal1ready been said, can only make the taskof the police more difficult.

if the keeping of books by the holdersof gallon licenses were abolihed therewould be no check on the amounts thegallon licensees sold, and the Licensing Actregarding them could not be enforced.Failure to insist on the keeping of bookswould also make it difficult to detect saleswhich take place off the licensed premises,

an offence which, unfortunately, somegallon licensees-and I emphasise the -word"some," meaning a minority-are proneto commit. This is one of the most seriousoffences and I am sure, knowing the hion-ourable member as I do, that he wouldnot wish to condone it; and I am assuredthat the present provision in the Statuteassists in the detection of this type oftrading.

The fact that the name is not nowrecorded would not, as was suggested bythe honourable member, prevent thechecking from being of the value men-tioned previously. It is regrettable to haveto say that some gallon licensees are con-stantly seeking ways and means to getaround the requirements of their licenses.and nothing should be done which wouldmake evasion more difficult to detect, andthis applies particularly in regard to thesale of small quantities of liquor to juven-iles. Even if the provision In the Actgoes only part way to stop this sort oftrading I think we should retain it, andIt is perhaps a Pity that the other wordswere removed.

I would like to point out that a numberof gallon licensees are not retail grocers, asthe honourable member suggests, and someare only token grocers. An inspectionof gallon licensees' premises, particularlyin parts of the metropolitan area, willshow that instead of conducting a gallonlicense in conjunction with a grocerybusiness,' the whole of the shop area isgiven to the sale of liquor only. I do notthink this was ever the intention whenParliament passed the original Statute-I can hardly imagine it was--but the factremains that a number of these Peoplehave allowed liquor to become a predomin-ant feature of their business. Inmany cases they have only a- tokengrocery business run in conjunction withtheir gallon licences.

The honourable member's Bill. ofcourse, does not deal with that par-ticular aspect: it deals only with thequestion of records. The only otherpoint dealt with in the honourablemember's Bill is the question of the two-gallon license. It is true that a two-gallon license does not now exist, butthis really does not justify an amendment.No difficulty is caused by the existingreference to two-gallon licenses, and I can-not see the value of removing this pro-vision.

I amn certain that if It is desirable-andit Is, and the bonourable member mustalso think it Is--to retain the bookkeepingprovisions for spirit merchants' licenses--in fact. I think he dealt with this speci-fically and did not advocate the removalof the bookkeeping provisions in respectof spirit merchants' licenses or brewers'licenses, most of whose sales are onlywholesale to other licensees--it is desirableto retain the provisions for gallon licen-sees. The Government is opposed to themeasure and I intend to vote against it.

[Wednesday, 13 October, 1965.]344

MR,. JAMIESON (Beeloo) L15.50 p.m.]:If ever I heard the minister for IndustrialDevelopment struggling to put forward anargument it was Just before he sat downon this Issue. By no stretch of the imag-ination can I see the desirability at re-taining the present set-up. I would prob-ably agree with the Minister in sayingthat the present system should be con-tinued if it were also provided that, withthe selling of liquor, the names of thePersons to whom it was sold had to berecorded. But what sense is there in thepresent provisioni'-because all that thegallon licensee has to do is record thefact that he has sold, for instance, ninebattles of wine on such-and-such a date,10 bottles of beer on another date, andseven bottles of some other liquor on yetanother date. It does not make sense. Allit means Is that the gallon licensee cancheck to see that his stock is correct. TheBill distinctly states that the holder of agallon license-

shall keep a book and shall entertherein forthwith, after every pur-chase by him of liquor, for sale underhis license, the date of purchase, thequantity and kind of liquor purchased,and the name of the seller.

Surely that is fair enough if anyone wantsto check on how much liquor the gallonlicensee has. However, the Minister miss-ed the point. If he is not prepared totackle the problem of licensed premisesselling liquor illicitly he should not buyinto an argument like this. He, like othermembers, would know that many of thesestores run telephone sales of liquor byreferring one to a cool store with the numi-ber of a barrel and, as soon as that numberis quoted, the barrel is passed on to theperson buying it.

Unless the Minister is prepared to dosomething about illegal sales of liquor ofthis kind I cannot see any reason for con-tinuing the present practice, because inmy view the information available to thepolice now is useless. The Minister saidhe had instances of where this informationhad been of great value, but he did notquote even one case. Unless the nameswere entered alongside the sales of liquorit would be extremely hard to detectwhether any illicit selling was being car-ried out.

Under the present set-up a gallon licenseewould be mad if every now and again hedid not write down in his books that hehad sold so many bottles of this and somany bottles of that to cover himself.There is also the question of breakcages.It would be almost impossible to conducta successful case at law under the presentarrangements or unless the gallon licenseewere required to supply more informationthan is required at the moment.

Also, the law as it stands is almost im-possible to police. If the Minister says itcan be, then I say he is completely wrong

because it is a practical impossibility. Ifthat is so we should do the right thingand alter it. If we want to know howmuch liquor a gallon licensee is sellingfrom time to time, and to whom he isselling it, the Minister tar Police hasother methods of detection, as he has withunlicensed premises which are sellingliquor. These premises can be watchedand people can be caught in Illicitpractices. But to assume that one couldget the information one wanted from thebooks is completely wrong; and I defy theMinister for Industrial Development, withall his accounting knowledge, to bring aset of books here and determine whethera case could be taken at law-that Is,using the method that is set down underthe Act as it exists.

The proposal in the Hill that a gallonlicensee shall record all his purchases isa far better proposition If the police wantto know just how much is coming intoand going out of a store; because if thegallon licensee purchased a certain quan-tity of liquor and he did not have thatin his possession when his shop was in-spected one could immediately say that somuch liquor had passed through his handsand the police could watch to see whetherit is being sold legally or not.

I do not know much about the otherpart of the Bill, but the Minister did notseem to think it was of much importanceand he was not prepared to argue in re-gard to it. However, in respect of thegallon licensee, I think it is only completehumbug to insist on the licensee goingthrough a procedure that means nothingat all. All he does at the moment is toput pencil to paper and write down thenumber of bottles said. As a matter offact, I imagine there would be a thousandand one ways for a person to get aroundthe Provisions in the Act. No doubt thesePeople could pre-sell their liquor by bookentry to make sure they were always ina good position; or, alternatively, everynight they could enter up that they badsold so many bottles of liquor. Thatcould be done as they were checking theirstock after closing the store.

I cannot see how the present require-ments, in the Act can be carried out effec-tively, and I cannot imagine a gallonlicensee, alter he had sold seven bottlesof beer, for instance, to one customer,saying to his next customer, "You willhave to wait a, moment while I write downthat I have sold seven bottles of beer,"and following the same sort of procedureafter he had served that customer, with,for instance, six bottles of wine. Thatsort of thing would not happen unlessthere was a requirement In the Act thatthe customer's name had to be recorded.If that was required then, of course, thepolice could easily arrange for a pimpto go into a shop and buy some liquor.If it was found that the name was notrecorded in the book the police would have

1441

1442 [ASSEMBLY.]

a legitimate case to take before the courts. he know he was being given the correctHowever, as the Act stands now, there isno basis upon which a legitimate casecan be taken. I support the Bill.

MR. TONKIN (Melville-Deputy Leaderof the Opposition) (5.56 p.m.]: Seldomhave I heard a weaker argument thanthat Put up by the Minister for IndustrialDevelopment-a weaker argument on anysubject by anybody. The Minister'sspeech consisted wholly and solely ofassertions.

Mr. Court: Oh no!Mr. TONKIN: And assertions are not

argument.Mr. Court: It was a statement of fact-Mr. TONKIN: The minister has fol-

lowed the line of the department. Foryears retail traders have tried to obtainfrom the Police Department some reasonwhy it wants to retain the present pro-cedure.

Mr. Court: Why should the police tellthem?

Mr. TONKIN: This afternoon I en-deavoured to get some reasons but allI got was this-

On an analysis the Governmentagrees with the authorities the pro-vision has a practical value.

But the Minister did not tell us what thatpractical value was, and neither will thePolice Department. It is all very wellto say a thing has a practical value.But surely there is an obligation on thePerson asserting it to show what thatPractical value is; and I ask the Minister.or any member of the Government, toadvance a single argument in proof ofthe practical value.

Mr. Court: But they found discrepan-cies through the application of the presentlaw.

Mr. TONKIN: They found discrepancies!There are two classes of licensees--

Mr. Court: Do you want to make iteasier to sell liquor illicitly?

Mr. TONKIN: -those who obey thelaw and those who want to get aroundit. Those who are obeying the law willfaithfully enter up their books, becausethey have nothing to hide and nothingto fear. Those who want to evade thelaw will cook the books; and how will thePolice know?

Mr. Court: The police are not thatdumb. They are experienced in this sortof thing. They have spent their lifetimeat it.

Mr. TONKIN: The reason why Parlia-ment agreed previously to delete from thelaw the requirement that the seller ofliquor had to write the name of thePurchaser in the books was that therewas no guarantee, and there could neverbe a guarantee that the seller was writingthe correct name in the book. How would

name? One does not have to produce one'sbirth certificate when one buys a gallonof liquor. A person goes into a retail grocer,and says, "I want a gallon of beer." and thegrocer says. "I have to put Your name inthe book. What is Your name?" The cus-tomer replies, "Mickie Dripping." Whatvalue would that be to the Police? He couldsay it was Smith, Robinson, Jones, or any-thing else. Would the grocer say. "Youprove to me that is your name. Where areyour marriage lines?" Of course he wouldnot!

So. in practice, the thing is useless.Without the name the writing of thefigures is also useless, because theman who wants to trade illegally will sitdown at the end of the day and say, "Nowlet me see. I sold one bottle there, twobottles there, and four bottles there. Iwill have to write that I sold six bottles;then I will write that I sold another eightbottles. Let me total that up. Yes, thatis what I should have sold today." Howwill the police know he sold 14 bottles as14 single bottles or as the requisite quan-tity? How will the police know by comingin once a quarter and reading those re-cords?

Mr. Court: They do not only turn up onthe quarterly check. They have their ownmethods.

Mr. TONKIN: The police would still notknow any mare, because the one who wantsto trade illegally will make sure he hascooked his books satisfactorily. What sillyfool who is breaking the law will deliber-ately write into his book that he has soldless than one gallon? Who will do that?

Mr. Fletcher: No astute businessmanMr. TONKIN: So it must be assumed

that if he makes an entry, and he is trad-ing illegally, it will be a false entry. Howwill the Police know it is false or other-wise? The police have no name to checkby, or anything by which to check thedate of the sale.

When the police have been asked, "Whatis the real reason for this?" they haveadopted the method of the Minister andhave said, "It has practical value." Butthey did not say what that practical valueis.

Mr. Court: The smartie you are talkingabout is also smart enough to know thatthe police do not wait till the quarterlycheck to see how he is running his busi-ness.

Mr. TONKIN: For some reason or an-other the Minister wanted to associatethis Bill with the desire of the holdersof licenses to sell single bottles. It hasnothing to do with the desire to sell singlebottles.

Mr. Court: I only mentioned that inpassing. These people are constantlyPressing for easements.

[Wednesday, 13 October, 1965.] 1443

Mr. TONKIN: The Minister did thatdeliberately to create in the minds ofmembers the impression that this meas-ure was in some way related to the saleof single bottles. It is nothing of thekind. It has no relation to it in any shapeor form.

Mr. Court: I never said it was. I saidthey are continually pressing for ease-ments.

Mr'. TONKIN: That is so: but this isno easement in the sale of liquor.

Mr. Court: It is intended to make lifeeasier for them.

Mr. TONKIN: I repeat that this is noeasement in the sale of liquor. Thiswould save the time of the grocers andthe time of the police. The Minister didnot say a single thing which, in myopinion, justifies the waste of time in-volved in this question. The Minister saidit would make it easier for some peopleto break the law. That is an assertion.The Minister did not say how It wouldmake it easier for them to break the law.I want to know how it would make iteasier for them to break the law.

I would like the police to say, or some-body on behalf of the Government to say.how this alteration of the law will makeIt easier for some people to break the law.It is all very well to make assertions-weget so many of them-but when one iscalled upon to back an assertion withsome evidence it is a different propositionaltogether. I say most definitely that thisdoes not make it easier for people to breakthe law: and in support of my contentionI would say that the gallon licensee mustrecord the amount of liquor he purchases.If he wants to break the law, one of theonly two ways in which he can break itis that he sells the liquor away from hispremises: and is there anything to stophim from entering on his premises thequantity of liquor he sold off his premises?Not a thing in the world!I

There is nothing to say he cannot takehis records home and write them up. Soa licensee who is selling liquor off hispremises can simply record in his bookthat the liquor has been sold from hispremises. How on earth does it make iteasier for him to sell liquor that way.if we say he does not have to write itup? It is nonsense, in my view, to assertthat it makes It easier,

If there were some check on the entries:if there were some audit of the entries,and some way of verifying the entries.there might be some sense in the Min-ister's argument. But there is no wayto check this. A policeman could come in,take hold of the book and find that onthe 9th January there was a sale of 14bottles to blank: a sale of 11 bottles toblank; and a sale of 10 bottles to blank.How does that policeman know those saleswere in right quantity, or in breach of

the law? How could he know? Wouldthe licensee tell him if he had broken thelaw? If the policeman interrogated thelicensee and said, "Did you sell thosequantities in the right quantity?" whatanswer do members think he would get?So of what practical value is it?

The Minister said this Bill would makeillicit trading easier. That is an assertion:a Pure assertion. The Minister never ad-vanced a single argument to show howit would make illicit trading easier. Mem-bers in the House heard the same as Idid, and I challenge any one of them tomention one argument in support of thecontention that it would make illicit trad-ing easier. Of course there is not oneargument in support of that contention:and that is the whole weakness in theGovernment's case. If the Governmenthas arguments, surely it is right and pro-per that the arguments should have beenadvanced and not just assertions made.

The Minister said that the taking awayof this Provision in the ]aw would giveundesirable results. That is an assertion.It is nothing more and nothing less thana straightout assertion. But did theMinister endeavour to give a single illus-tration of these undesirable results, orhow they would occur? He did not giveone.

I have been to many debates in my timeand have heard school children debatinga question for and against. They havealways made some attempt to supporttheir contentions or their assertionswith evidence. But if we go throughthe whole of the Minister's case thisafternoon against this proposed amend-ment, we find there was no evi-dence at all. What I would have expectedthe Minister to do was to say, "It wouldbring undesirable results, and these area few of them. This has happened, orthat has happened." But no: all the Min-ister said was that it will bring undesir-able results.

Mr. Court: And so it would.Mr. TONKIN: How?Mr. Court: We are not going to take the

legislation off for your satisfaction andtry it out.

Mr. TONKIN: That is not an illustra-tion.

Mr. Court: Of course it is! The fact thatthe legislation is there shows it has pre-vented some illicit trading.

Mr. TONKIN: How?Mr. Court: Because it helps the police

in their records.Mr. TONKIN: More assertions! That is

all we can get, and that Is all the retailtraders have been able to get.

Mr. Court: That was the only answerwe got from your Government.

1444 ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. TONKIN: When an approach wasfirst made to me in connection with thismatter, I was impressed by the attitudeof the representatives Of the retail traders,because they said, "We object to this,because we think it serves no useful Pur-pose. That is our strong bellef, and wehave tried over and over again to obtainfrom the Police Department some reasonswhy they want this retained, and we can-not get any." So we are asked to retaina provision in the law which is undulyirksome: but we are given no reasons whywe should retain it. Any Proposition atall should be supported by reasons.

I know this Government has got intothe habit of doing things without reason,because it Just uses its majority and getsaway with it. Reasons are not necessarywhen the Government has the force. Butsurely on a question like this, if there arereasons, it is not too much to expect thatthey will be mentioned.

But for the Minister to get up and makeassertions like, "It will have undesirableresults;" and "It will make illicit tradingeasier." and that sort of thing, does notprovide a reason at all. Anybody can Saythat. To justify the contention is anentirely different matter.

No doubt the Government will treatthis as a party question, and use its num-bers to defeat the amendment, It re-minds me of what I have heard overmany Years to the effect that majoritiesprove nothing. They only decidequestions; they only decide issues;and more often than not they decide themIn the wrong.

If, however, there was a simple questionwhich ought to be dealt with on itsmerits this Is it. On the one side theretail grocers say it is irksome to have todo this: it is a waste of time; it is awaste of police time and it serves no use-ful purpose. In support of that conten-tion they say, "The Person who wants totrade illicitly can cook his books and keepon cooking his books, whereas a personwho is not trading illicitly has to gothrough the labour unnecessarily."

on the other hand the Police Depart-ment and the Government assert that totake this provision away will bring unde-sirable results; but when they are askedto say how these undesirable results willoccur, or what is the nature of the results,they can say nothing.Sitting suspended from 6.15 io 7.30 P.M.

Mr. TONKIN: There was one other pro-vision In the Bill. Section 39 as it standsin the Act Provides that the holder of agallon license, a two-gallon license, abrewer's license, or a spirit merchant'slicense, shall do certain things. There is.however, no such thing as a holder of atwo-gallon license, as this is no longer inexistence.

When I approached the draftsman inconnection with my Proposal to amend theAct to remove the obligation which existsf or a licensee to record his sales of liquor.the draftsman suggested to me that itwould be wise to take advantage of theopportunity to tidy up this section andremove the reference to a two-gallonlicense as no such thing now exists. Ithought that was pretty good reason fortaking action, and that is why it is includedin the Bill. If I understood the Ministercorrectly. he is against that, too.

Mr. Court: There is no particular signi-ficance in it one way or the other.

Mr. TONY-IN: So it seems that the Gov-ernment is determined to oppose whateveris in the Hill just because it comes fromthe Opposition. It is pretty obvious whatis going to happen, but I cannot do muchabout It. However, I think it is some-thing which the Government will live toregret because, for the life of Me, I havebeen unable to obtain from anywhere anyjustification whatever for the retention ofthis provision in the law.

I repeat that the police have been askedover and over again, in a reasonable way,to submit a case as to why this require-ment should remain, and all they will sayis that it is necessary; and that is all theGovernment says, without giving any sup-porting argument at all. It comes downto this: The Minister says that to take thisfrom the law will give undesirable results:and we have to accept the position. Thereason is that he says so; and that is allthe House has to go on. If we agree tothis amending Bill, it will produce undesir-able results because the Minister says so.and not upon any evidence whatever whichhas been advanced from any source.

I have never, in all my experience.heard a weaker argument supporting aproposed course of action, and I can onlyexpress my regret that the Governmentfalls to deal with the question on its meritsand simply takes up a position which Isreally untenable when we come to examineit, because It wants to use its numbers andprevent this desirable amendment frombeing made.

I leave the matter in the hands of theRouse. I have done all I can to explainthe reason why this is desired and to showup the weakness In the Government's case.I can do no more. The question is now inthe hands of the Assembly,

Question put and a division taken withthe following result:-

Mr. DavieeMr. FletcherMr. 3rahamMr. HallMr. J1. flegneyMr. W. HeaneyMr. JamnlesnMr. Kelly

Ayes- 15Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.

MolrNortonRow berrySewellTomeTonkinNawke

Mttcer)

1444

[Wednesday, 13 October. 1965.] 1445

Noe"2fMr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr.

pairs

Mr. BrandMr. CourtMr. CraigMr. CrommelinMr. DunnMr. DurackMr. GraydenMr. GuthrieMr. HartMr. flutchinsoynMr. Lewis

AyesMr. MayMr. BickertonMr. EvansMr. Rhatigan.Majority against-7.Question thus negatived.Bill defeated.

SUPERPHOSPHATE: PRODUCTIONAND USE

inquiry by Select Committee: MotionDebate resumed, from the 15th Septem-

ber, on the following motion by Mr.Kelly:-

That a Select Committee be ap-Pointed thoroughly to examine allaspects of superphosphate production.distribution, and use, the feasibility ofextension of superphosphate manufac-ture to selected Inland areas, and thefuture prospect for the establishmentof bulk depots in suitable countrycentres.

MR. NALDER (Katanning-Minister forAgriculture) [7.40 p.m.]: I rise to reply tothe motion of the member for Merredin-Yilgarn: and I find-as he admitted whenIntroducing it-that It is very similar to amotion Introduced last year by the mem-ber for Boulder-Eyre except, of course, thathe has included one or two other proposals.

The honourable member referred to themotion introduced last year, and I do notintend to criticise his remarks; but Iwould like to comment on the fact thatalthough he criticised the Minister's replylast year-and he went to the trouble towork out how many minutes and secondsI took to reply-he spent most of the timewhen introducing this motion this year incommenting on something completely ir-relevant to the motion.

Mr. Hawke: Who told the Minister that?Mr. NALDER: Who told the Minister

that?Mr. Hawke: Yes.Mr. NALDER: I read it myself in

Hansard. I know I have not been back verylong, but I have had an opportunity tocasually look through the remarks madeby the honourable member. He took about21 minutes to submit to the House theactual information on the motion, and togive the reasons he considered a commit-tee of inquiry was necessary. The rest of

W. A. ManningMarshall?MichellNeaderNiainmoO'ConnorO'NeilRun lm a nRushtonWilliams,1. W. Meaning

(Teller)

I draw attentionprice quoted showstoria is £5 19s. 6d.as against the price

to the fact that thethat the cost in Vic-a ton at the works.charged in this State

NoesMr. BoveliMr. GarterMr. BurtDr. Henn

the time he spent quoting Cuttings fromnewspapers and making observations aboutthe political parties, meetings in Merredin,and the like. I am not criticising thehonourable member for that.

Mr. Kelly: Not much!Mr. NALER: He is quite at liberty to

do that, but I was looking for some real in-formation as to why this inquiry is neces-sary this year in comparison with the In-formation that was available last year.I found very little information to indicatethat there is any more reason this yearfor an inquiry than there was last year.

During his speech he obviously over-looked referring to a newspaper articlewhich appeared in The West Australianon the 29th March this year. This articlewas very well Written and covered thewhole aspect of manufacture, storage, andthe cost of superphosphate to farmers inWestern Australia. The details given arevery Illuminating, and the conclusionarrived at by the writer of the article isthat it appeared that super in WesternAustralia was the cheapest in this country.

Mr. Kelly: Who said that?Mr. NALER: The article was written

by Chris Griffiths, and it appeared in TheWest Australian on the 29th March, 1965.That was the conclusion he reached afterstudying the whole of the ramifications ofthe cost of manufacture, distribution, andthe like. including the addition of traceelements. He came to the conclusion thatWestern Australian superphosphate wasthe cheapest in Australia.

The facts disclosed in that article showedthat because of the wide distribution offertiliser works in this State, the weightedaverage cost of superphosphate was lowerthan elsewhere in Australia; and that wasbecause of overall lower transport costs.

Western Australia has seven manufac-turing centres of superphosphate; and Ijust want to compare the situation herewith that in the other States, because itis well that we should know the positionin this State. In Western Australia, asI have said, superplhosphate works aresituated at vantage Points in the mainports around the Western Australian coastfrom Geraldton to Esperance. Super-phosphate is manufactured at, and dis-tributed from, those centres to the ad-joining farming areas. These manufac-turing works produce quantities rangingfrom about 50.000 tons a year-I am justgiving this as the figure for Esperance, asI understand that is the approximateamount produced there-to the largestworks in the metropolitan area that turnout approximately 200,000 tons. Theseven manufacturing centres last yearproduced a total of some 972,000 tons ofsuperphosphate.

1448 [ASSEMBLY.]

of E7 6s. a ton: and the prices in all theother States were above the price in West-ern Australia.

It should be Pointed out that the Vic-torian Price of £5 19s. 6d. a ton is forsuperphosphate of 22 per cent. phosphoricacid content, as against 23 per cent, inthis State. In addition, there were re-ports that the Victorian price was notremunerative to the manufacturers: andwe now learn-this information came tome yesterday from that State-that theprice has risen by 18s. a ton. This an-nouncement was apparently made in Vic-toria yesterday. We all know that thePrice in Western Australia has risen by13s. a ton, and it is said this is due en-tirely to the extra cost of landing sulphurhere.

Even allowing for the new price in-creases and the difference in the phos-phoric acid content, there is still a dis-parity; but it is not very much when wework it out. The one per cent, phosphoricacid content represents, possibly, £1; sothere is the difference between the pricequoted for Victorian super and the pricequoted for Western Australian super.

It is well known that the cheapestsuperphosphate is obtained from worksthat produce a. large quantity. There isno argument about this: the greater theoutput the lower the price. The worksin Victoria-there are three of them-areoperating close to one another in the onevicinity. So their output is much greaterthan the Western Australian output, andsome consideration must be given to thataspect. I am informed that two of theworks produce in the vicinity of 500,000tons annually. This production must in-fluence the actual price that is chargedfor the superphosphate from those wvorks.

In Western Australia only one super-Phosphate manufacturing works producesanywhere near that amount; and it pro-duces only half that quantity-200.000tons. So we must accept this greater pro-duction as an advantage that the Vic-torian manufacturers have as comparedwith the Western Australian manufac-turers.

The works in Victoria are manufactur-ing to total capacity. I have not heardwhat occurred this year, but last yearthere was a definite shortage both in Vic-toria and New South Wales: the con-sumption was greater than the production.By contrast the works in this State arespread along the whole of the coast thatserves the agricultural areas of WesternAustralia from Qeraldton to Esperance.

At this stage Esperance produces-theworks have been in production for only ashort period-in the vicinity of 50,000 tonsPer annum; and I think we must allagree that such a small quantity does notmake for economic production. In spiteof this, the fertiliser companies and theGovernment decided that these works werenecessary to serve that area.

I wish to emphasise the importance ofthe present distributing and manufac-turing centres of superphosphate to thefarmers. Each one of those establishedin Oeraldton, Fremantle, Bunbury. Albany.and Esperance is sited so that the farm-ing community can get their superphos-phate on the basis of cheaper rates fortransport. Because of this the farmersat Esperance-the latest centre estab-lished-are able to buy super at the sameprice as super users anywhere else in theState.

The costs have been averaged so thatthe farmers in the older-established areaswhere superphospate has been manufac-tured and distributed for many years arecontributing in some way towards the ad-ditional cost that has been brought aboutby manufacturing a smaller quantity at anew centre; and I think, Mr. Speaker, youwill agree that farmers in any of theolder-established areas would be quite pre-pared to agree to this proposition; anid ithas been accepted over the years in re-spect of the establishment of works incentres other than the metropolitan area.

it is interesting to have a look at thecost of superphiosphate in other countries.I wish to quote the prices of overseassuperphosphate which I recently obtained.In Vancouver, Canada, the wholesale pricefor bulk superphosphate containing 19 percent. phosphoric acid Per short ton of2,000 pounds was 53 Canadian dollars. Ifthis is worked out on the basis of 23 percent. phosphoric acid per long ton of2,240 pounds, the price would be '72Canadian dollars. Converted to Austra-lian currency, this would be £30 6s. perton. inquiries in Bakersfield, California,U.S.A., on a similar basis gave a figure of£22 l7s. Per ton.

In Auckland, New Zealand, the price ofbulk superphosphate ex works containing20 per cent, phosphoric acid was E8 14S.New Zealand currency. OnL this basis, 23per cent. Phosphoric acid superphosphate,would be worth £10 per ton which, con-verted to Australian currency, would be£12 los. per ton; and this was prior to theannouncement of the increased price ofsulphur. When we consider these Pointsit is interesting to note that we still have.probably, the cheapest superphosphateavailable to farmers in the world.

The member for Merredin-Vilgarn men-tioned the situation in respect of traceelements, and this is quite interesting.This matter was dealt with last year, andI make the Point again that we cannotunderrate the importance of the additionof trace elements to superphosphate. Wehave proved that so much of our land,which earlier was considered to be useless,is very valuable because of the applicationof trace elements to it. The application Oftrace elements has revolutionised the

1446

[Wednesday, 13 October, 1985.] 44

situation in this State and has made avail-able for interested land developers muchmore land than we would have been ableto use previously, because of the economicposition.

The most important trace element hereis copper. Earlier we were able to supplyour own requirements from copper thatwe mined in different parts of the State.However, because of the increasing usageof this element and because of the dinlin-Ishing supplies of copper in Western. Aus-tralia, we have had to look elsewhere forsupplies. For many years our own copperore served as the chief source of supply;but in 1950, after we began to increasethe amount of land for development, it wasfound that our supplies of copper ore weregradually becoming depleted, and it becamenecessary for us to look for supplies else-where.

The demand for copper has increasedthe cost in western Australia, We havehad to look beyond the State for our sup-plies, and as a result it has been necessaryto increase the cost of superphosphatewhich contains trace elements, and thatincrease has had to be passed on to theusers.

Zinc prices also rose at the same time;and in Western Australia there has beenan increase in the demand for urea. Sev-eral years ago this commodity was avail-able at a very reasonable price becausemany production plants were being estab-lished in different parts of the world.While this situation continued there wasan oversupply of urea and the price wasvery reasonable, and the commodity wasreadily available. Because of the increaseddemand here, however, it was not very longbefore that situation changed, and it wasfound that the cost rose and that the in-crease had to be met by the users of thefertiliser.

Returning to the point that was raisedin the latter part of the motion movedby the member for Merredin-rilgarn, thisreads as follows:-

...the feasibility of extension of super-phosphate manufacture to selected in-land areas and the future prospect forthe establishment of bulk depots insuitable country centres.

In my opinion the situation in relationto that aspect has been adequatelycovered. in November of last year Cabinetgave full consideration to this proposaland appointed a subcommittee which in-vestigated the details relating to the re-quirements of this State in the interestsof decentralisation in particular, becausethat is a policy which is supported by thisGovernment. Where it is at all Possible.and when the economics Prove that sucha proposition can be put into effect, wegive it every support.

The information covering this situationwas collated; and it was felt that the posi-tion at this stage, with all the informationavailable, would point to the fact that itwould be premature to suggest to any per-son, company, or group of individuals, thatit would be an economical proposition toestablish another manufacturing depot inanother part of the State. That does notindicate that conditions will not alter in aLfew years, but at present the circumstancessuggest that it is uneconomical to estab-lish another manufacturing depot at pre-sent. Because of the information thatwas collated, and because of further de-mands, the Government constituted an-other subcommittee to investigate the corn-plete proposal that had been submittedto ascertain whether anything furthercould be Produced in the light of additionalinformation. That is the position as Itnow stands.

It has been said that the Governmentdid not encourage anyone to establishanother manufacturing unit elsewhere inthe State. We have not said that this wasnot a reasonable proposal; we have onlysaid that we proved that the economicsof the situation were not sound. If anyoneis desirous of establishing another manu-facturing unit he is quite at liberty to doSO.

The other proposal submitted by thehonourable member was that it was ad-visable to consider the question of theestablishment of bulk superphosphatedepots in country centres. This is beingConsidered right now. The Cabinet sub-committee had a meeting last Thursdaywith all interested parties and the pro-posals submitted by the manufacturerswere considered and it was thought ad-visable that the Farmers' Union should beinvited to give further consideration tothe proposals that we are submitting andwith that in view a meeting is to be heldtomorrow to consider further the eco-nomics of establishing bulk depots in cen-tres where superphosphate would bereadily available to users.

Because of these factors I feel-and Ithink the Government supports me in thisconitention-that it would be quite unl-reasonable for the Government to agreeto set up another committee to go over thesame ground which I have describedbriefly to the House this evening; namely,to search around and to request nmcmbersof this inquiring committee to seek outinformation which we already possess andwhich, in my opinion, will prove nothingmore than that which I have been ableto present here this evening, and whichI announced last year; that is, that acommittee of inquiry will not bring forthany more evidence to indicate that thecost of superphosphate in Western Aus-tralia at the moment is too high. In viewof this I feel I have no other course thanto oppose the motion put forward by themember for Merredin-Yilgarn.

1447

(ASSEMBLY.)I

MR. NORTON (Gascoyne) (8.5 p.m.]:In commencing his comments on themotion moved by the member for Merit-din-Yilgarn the Minister said that lastyear he did not have sufficient informna-tion to warrant an Inquiry being held. Ido not think that statement fits in withthe facts of the case, especially if onereviews the debate that was conductedlast year; and, In particular, the speechmade by the member for Mt. Marshallwho, I consider, put forward a mostadequate case for conducting a full inquiryinto the manufacture of superphosphate.That honaurable member went to a greatdeal of trouble to obtain facts and figures,and to ensure they were correct, and toQuote information concerning other com-panies in the Eastern States.

For the Minister to say that there wasinsufficient information at that time tojustify an inquiry being held is not quitecorrect, especially as this was followed up,at a later date, by the appointment ofanother committee to inquire into thesame need. So apparently it was con-sidered that a further investigation waswarranted, and I am still of the opinionthat such an inquiry would be desirable.

Another matter dealt with by the Min-ister was the cost of superphosphate inother countries. Whilst It was very in-teresting to hear all these costs it is moreimportant to us in Western Australia toobtain superphosphate at the lowest pos-sible price and at times which are mostconvenient and suitable to farmers.Therefore I fail to see how costs in othercountries are relevant to this motion.

I think a committee appointed to in-quire into this problem In Western Aus-tralia would have a tremendous task aheadof it to obtain the facts for which itwas searching, because when one looks atthe seven manufacturing centres andtheir position at present one finds thatthere is virtually only one company manu-facturing superphosphate in Western Aus-tralia.

I wvill now deal with the manuf acturingcentres as the Minister dealt with them.Briefly, they extend from Oeraldton toEsperance. We find that the Geraldtonmanufacturing company comprises thecompanies of Cumning Smith, BY., andFarmers Fertilisers Limited, and I under-stand that they have equal shares in thatholding company.

The same company operates at Fre-mantle, Picton, and Bassendean. At Bays-water there is Cresco Fertilisers Ltd. whichis a separate entity and a public companyin which shares can be purchased. TheAlbany Superphosphate Company, again,comprises Cuming Smith, B.P., FarmersFertilisers Ltd. and, in addition CrescoFertilisers Ltd. So at Albany we havea fourth company entering into partner-ship with the other three firms: and, of

course, at Esperance the company whichoperates there is a subsidiary of theAlbany superphosphate works.

So all those manufacturing companiesare dovetailed one with the other andtherefore are not likely to compete withone another. I agree that with the excep-tion of the fertiliser works in Perth andFremantle, all the others have regionalzones In which they distribute manufac-tured fertilisers.

The business of manufacturing ferti-Uisers is very lucrative because it Is found,when one tries to buy shares in CrescoFertilisers Ltd., that they are over doubletheir par value, which is £1. For weeksand almost months now the shares havebeen at 43s., and recently they rose to 45s.I understand they rose to a figure con-siderably higher than that when a recentsuggestion of a takeover was mooted. Isit likely that all these companies willdivulge their profits and cost figures whenthey are not so required? They will, ofcourse, make available all their costs andfigures sufficient to keep one quiet.

Other factors which indicate that thebusiness is quite lucrative are the rebateswhich the companies allow at certaintimes of the year. I will deal with thisaspect a little later. If a fertiliser worksestablishment were developed in the inlanda certain trade concession would begranted on raw materials for the manu-facture of superphosphate because it Isfound that two-thirds of a ton of phos-phate rock will manufacture one ton ofsuperphosphate. Therefore there must bea, considerable freight saving on the cart-age of phosphate rock because two-thirdsof a ton of phosphate rock will be cartedfor two-thirds of the price of the freighton one ton of superphosphate. Phosphaterock is much cheaper to transport becausethe manufactured article produces morebulk weight.

The cartage of phosphate rock can alsobe done by the railways at less cost, be-cause it can be back-loaded during thewheat handling season, whereas most ofthe superphosphate has to be carted, as itwere, out of season when wheat cartingis not being carried out. Another point isthat phosphate rock does not deteriorate.It can be stored readily and does not re-quire any special protection. This Istotally different from the manufacturedarticle which could, I understand, becarted during the off season. Thereforeit can be seen that there would be a con-siderable saving effected on the cartageof raw materials for the manufacture ofsuperphosphate.

I believe that a co-operative venture inthis line would be quite a success. Thishas been proved in the State of Victoria.That is one of the reasons why the priceof superphosphate in Victoria is less thanthat in Western Australia. It is because

(Wednesday, 13 October, 1965.1 1449

in Victoria there is a co-operative com-pany by the name of P.I.V.O.T. which hasover 20,000 shareholders.

When one reviews the speech made bythe member for Mt. Marshall it is foundthat he mentioned that this Particular co-operative company granted a rebate of 18s.a ton to all its shareholders and that aperson holding £300-worth of shares ob-tained a rebate of £1,300 during the last10 Years, which is equal to a return of £130per annumn on an outlay of £300. So if oneobtained a rebate of 18s. a ton and alsoa handsome rebate in addition, it wouldindicate that the whole business must bevery lucrative.

When we consider the rebate grantedby the companies it is found that thesuperphosphate companies in this Stateare prepared to pay a rebate during cer-tain months of the year. On a quickreckoning, this rebate amounts to prac-tically 10 Per cent. It is found that forearly deliveries at sidings in September thecompanies are willing to give a rebate of16s. a ton and the railways will give 5s.rebate on their freight charges. In Octo-ber, the rebate is 12s. a ton plus a railwayrebate of 5s. a ton. In November therebate is 10s. a ton plus a rebate of 5is.by the railways, and in December andJanuary again the companies pay a re-bate of 4s. a ton, and a 4s. rebate per tonis granted by the railways. Quite a savingcan be made by purchasing supplies early:but for the saving to be made and for thecompanies to give away a considerableamount in order to get the superphosphateout, they must have a suffiiently largemargin.

Regarding the establishment of bulk de-pots we have read the report which hasbeen presented. It sets out the variouscosts to the companies for storing bulksuperphosphate at various centres. Inessence the cost to the companies is forthe storage of 7 000 tons; that is. wherethey distribute 7,000 tons, the cost will be14s. 9d. per ton. If the superphosphateis delivered into storage in the months ofSeptember and October, the companieshave up their sleeves 21s.-made up of 16s.rebate which they normally pay out forearly deliveries, and 5is. rail freight con-cession. If It is delivered into storage inNovember they will gain 17s., which is stillabove the cost of 14s. 96. for storage anddelivery from a bulk depot in any siding,provided the storage is In the vicinity of7,000 tons.'

This takes into consideration the factthat these companies build their own stor-age facilities. weighbridges, and so on, andthat they allow for labour, depreciation,maintenance, fuel, electricity, insurance,and sundries. So all the items are covered.When we examine the rebates, it is un-reasonable to assume that the cost wouldbe any greater for superphosphate storedin country centres in company bins, than

(54)

for superphosphate delivered from works,especially if the deliveries were beyond thetime limit.

It is only natural that when an insuffi-cient quantity of superphosphate can bestored in a siding, and is required in anydistrict, the cost will go up, because theinitial costs for the bins will not be verymuch different. We are told that in star-ing 5,000 tons of superphosphate at a aid-ing the cost increases from 14s. 9d. to £1Os. 4d. per ton; and that when the storagecapacity drops to 3,500 tons the amountper ton is f1 8s. 9d., or double the costfor 7,000 tons stored.

I can see no reason why the Govern-ment is opposed to the holding of an in-quiry into this question. The appointmentof a Select Committee would not put theGovernment on the spot in any way; onthe other hand, it would enable the Gov-ernment to obtain information in manydirections. The fact that over the pastthree years 79 questions have been askedin this House regarding superphosphateand its components-they were askedmostly by members on the Governmentside-indicates quite a bit of dissatisfac-tion on the delivery and price of super-phosphate. The Select Committee proposedin the motion would be able to do aL veryuseful job In delving into this problemwhich confronts all the farmers in theState. I support the motion.

MR. ROWBERRY (Warren) [8.19 p.m.]:I would like to say a few words on thelast-mentioned proposition in the motion;that is, the future prospect for the estab-lishment of bulk depots in suitable countrycentres. Considerable representation hasbeen made to me during the superphos-phate carting season by farmers whoseoperations have been held up, because theirorders could not be met or because theywere unable to take advantage of the re-bate in price and the railway freig ht con-cession. They claim that in order to takeadvantage of the rebate and the freightconcession they have to handle the super-phosphate twice, by taking it off the railand putting it in store, and then to tak~eit out of storage when they decide tospread it on their paddocks. They saythat the amount and the cost of labour forhandling offset the advantage that accruesby accepting deliveries early.

I put this to the Minister: In the estab-lishment of a bulk depot, if there is nofinancial advantage to be gained inaccepting deliveries early-except thatfarmers have the super on hand for usewhenever they require it-then why shouldnot the reduction in price and the freightconcessions be devoted to the building ofthe bulk establishment? If the superphos-phate companies send superphosphate exworks to the bulk establishments in suit-able country centres they should qualify

(ASSEMBLY.]

for the reduction in price and freight con-cession-in the same way as the farmersqualify. This would go a long way to pro-viding bulk depots at country centres toenable farmers to take advantage of theavailability of superphosphate at a timewhen they are free of other activities.

Mr. Nalder: Do You think farmers arePrepared to Pay the extra cost for theerection of country depots?

Mr. ROWBERRY: No; but Instead ofgiving the farmers a reduction in priceand freight concessions, the companiesshould devote the price rebate to the build-ing of bulk establishments. By doing sothe bulk centres would qualify for the re-bate and concession by accepting super-phosphate at times convenient to the com-panies.

Mr. Nalder: Someone would have toman the country depot, and machinerywould have to be installed to handle thesuperphosphate.

Mr. ROWBERRY: That would be thePosition in any case. I am merely puttingforward the Idea that this could result inthe establishment of bulk depots in suit-able country areas. I was told by a farmer,and I do not think he was telling an un-truth, that in order to take advantage ofthe Price rebate and freight concessionhe has to handle the superphosphatetwice, and as a result it is of no financialbenefit to him. Taking him at his word,then instead of giving the reduction tothe farmer, the money should be devotedto building bulk establishments at suitablecountry centres, which would then qualifyfor a reduction in price and freight. Thatwould reduce the impact on the farmersIn handling the superphosphate twice. Ileave that thought with the Minister, andI hope he will put it before the Cabinetsubcommittee. Anything which thisHouse can do to reduce the impact ofthe cost to farmers should be done. Isupport the motion.

Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr.Hart.

PAINTERS' REGISTRATION ACTAMENDMENT HILL

In Committee, etc.Resumed from the 6th October. The

Chairman of Committees (Mr. W. A. Man-ning) in the Chair; Mr. Graham in chargeof the Bill.

The CHAIRMAN: Progress was re-Ported after clause 3 had been agreed to.

Clause 4C Section 12 amended-Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON: The member

for Balcatta sought to amend the Act incertain particulars, and the Governmenthas agreed to all of them with the excep-tion of one. There has been some dis-cussion of this point at the Committeestage. The member for Balcatta has

asked me to consider further the proposi-tion and the amendment which he hasadvanced, and as a result I have placedon the notice paper an amendment toclause 4. I have discussed this amend-ment with the member for Balcatta andhe has indicated that it suits his purpose,and that he does not Propose to proceedwith the one in his name.

Section 12 of the Act Provides for theregistration of painters in three particu-lars. Firstly, a person must pass the pre-scribed course of training and examina-tion, and have practical experience as laiddown by the board, or as laid down bythe Court of Arbitration for apprentices;secondly, he is a member of an associationof painters recognised by the MasterPainters' Association Of Australia; thirdly.he has in some place other than WesternAustralia obtained a degree of proficiencyas a painter which the board may evalu-ate, before registering him, if his standardis comparable with the standard applyingin Western Australia. It is the second ofthese legs to which the Government takesexception, and my amendment deals withthe point.

As the Act nowv stands registration canbe effected only if the applicant has passedthe prescribed examinations in some placeother than Western Australia or has gaineda standard of proficiency which is recog-nised by the board. But there remainsthe painter who operates outside themetropolitan area, which is the areacovered by the Act. The country painterwho has obtained a standard of proficiencywhich the board may recognise is unableto be registered, because hie does not comefrom another part of Australia. That isan anomaly, and my amendment seeksto rectify the situation.

I agree with the principle that countrypainters should be eligible for registration,on a par with painters who come fromother parts of Australia and who have asimilar standard of proficiency, providedthe standard is recognised by the board,but they should not be eligible for regis-tration merely because they are membersof the association. I therefore move anamendment-

Page 2, lines 26 to 30-Delete allwords after the word "for" down toand including the word "Australia"and substitute the following words:-

"paragraph (b) of subsection (1),the following paragraph:-

(b) was at the date of thecommencement of thisAct and is at the time ofthe application engagedoutside the metropolitanarea referred to in sec-tion three of this Act inthe occupation of apainter or as a supervisorof painting as the wholeor a part of his means oflivelihood; or."

[Wednesday, 13 October, 1985.)

Mr. GRAHAM: I thank the Minister forhis remarks and his agreement to the in-sertion of the words he has proposed,which substantially meet the point Iraised. I can appreciate that those whowere at the time of the coming into opera-tion of this Act carrying out their paint-ing activities in the metropolitan area, asdefined in the Act, have had their oppor-tunity of being registered; and if theymissed the bus that was their fault. Butthere was no requirement for those in thecountry districts to be registered; andworking on the assumption that the MasterPainters' Association is a responsible andreputable body, which would be hardlylikely to embrace as members anymaster painters in the country districts un-less they met the standards required ofthem, I would assume there would be veryfew likely to be affected.

Nevertheless, I feel this gives a goodmeasure of justice to those who, for theirown good reason, found it expedient to seekto continue their trade in the metropolitanarea as alainst the country districts wherethey had been operating previously, butwith the requirement that they must havebeen so engaged in the country at the timeof the coming into operation of the Act. Ihave no objection to the amendment sub-mitted by the Minister.

Amendment put and passed.Clause, as amended, Put and passed.Title put and passed.Bill reported with an amendment.

WESTERN AUSTRALIAN COASTALSHIPPING COMMISSION BILL

ReturnedBill returned from the Council without

amendment.

CITY OF PERTH PARKINGFACILITIES ACT AMENDMENT

BILLSecond Reading

MR. GRAHAM (Balcatta) [8.36 p.m.]:I move-

That the Bill be now read a secondtime.

This Bill is before us in Pursuance of anunaer7ktv';hicb, I gave several weeksago when wve were considering legislationto amend the Local Government Act.Members will recall that in 1956, when theCity of Perth Parking Facilities Act wasapproved by Parliament, It was then-be-cause of the terms of that legislation-obviously the intention of Parliament thatall proceeds from parking stations andparking facilities should be placed ina separate f und to be used for theextension of parking facilities; that

is, when costs had been met inconnection with those facilities alreadyestablished.

For a period of some eight or nine yearsthat has been the order of the day and hasreceived general approval and acceptancefrom various authorities, including theRoyal Automobile Club, which as spokes-man for motorists, correctly interpreted, Ifeel, the wish of motorists. However, in1 960, Parliament agreed to a most volu-minous Statute known as the Local Gov-ermnent BIU, which now has force andoperation as the Local Government Act.

That Statute permits, subject to a;-proval of the Minister in respect of cer-tain detail, any local authority to provideparking facilities off-street as well as on-street; to install parking meters, and therest of it; but there was no requirementwhatsoever for a separate parking fundand for any of the proceeds and forcharges or fines or other income to beused for parking purposes. In otherwords, the local authority could have aparking scheme and all the net proceedscould be utilised-as I indicated when pre-viously debating this matter-for the pur-pose of building a swimming Pool for thepeople in the district.

My view in 1956 was, and has been eversince, that the proceeds of parking shouldbe used for parking purposes and worksassociated therewith, and for nothing else.However, this Parliament by a majority inboth Houses, and with the full approvalof this Government, agreed only in partwith that proposition when I sought thatwhat applies in the City of Perth areashould apply in the districts of every otherlocal authority in the State.

it is now my wish that what applieselsewhere should apply in the ease of theCity of Perth. This Parliament, withinthe past several weeks, has agreed thatmoneys received from parking charges canbe used for the purpose of acquisition ofland, buildings, and other structures, forthe provision, by means of street widening.of parking facilities, metered zones andmetered spaces, and for the regulation andcontrol, by that means, of the parking andstanding of vehicles within any parkingregion.

In other words, it will allow proceedsfrom parking charges to be used to pur-chase land and buildings and pay the costrf widening roads, ostensibly for the pur-pose of making additional park n,- faci-lities available. That is something whichis denied the Perth City Council at thepresent moment.

Mr. Craig: Has the Perth City Councilmade a request?

Mr. GRAHAM: No. Here let me inter-polate that there is no obligation, evenwith the passage of this legislation, onthe Perth City Council to use any of its

1452 [ASSEMBLY.]

moneys for these purposes; but I desireIt shall be placed in exactly the same posi-tion as the other local authorities, so that,if it wishes to widen any road for thepurpose of vehicle parking, then it shallbe Permitted to do so.

Mr. J. Hegney: Equal application of thelaw.

Mr. GRAHAM: That is so. I believethere is a total of 146 local authoritiesin Western Australia and, in my view, itis fantastic that we should establish prin-ciples that will apply in respect of 145of them and have an entirely different con-ception in respect of the other one. Theprinciple is either right or it is wvrong; anda democracy accepts the majority deci-sion of Parliament; and Parliament, notthe member for Balcatta, has decided thatthe 145 local authorities should have thepower to do this if they wish. I am sug-gesting, therefore, that the Perth CityCouncil should be permitted to use moneyfor that purpose if it so wishes and de-sires.

Let us remember at all times that it isnot as though the City of Perth is anisolated centre, but it borders other localauthorities where the middle of the streetis the municipal boundary, Surely it wouldbe ridiculous if a street were widened onone side from parking proceeds and thecost of widening on the other side of thestreet came from ordinary funds of thelocal authority. I feel no objection shouldbe raised to this provision.

The other amendment is similarly de-signed to make the legislation conformwith the decision of Parliament so recentlymade-namely, within the last week-thatmoneys received by the parking authority-it would be the local authority-by wayof fines and other penalties should notbe required to go into a parking fund , butthat these moneys might be used for anypurpose by the local authority. True, theseprofits could be used for parking purposesor the provision of further parking faci-lities; but on the other hand, they couldbe used for whatever purpose the localauthority deemed fit.

This principle, again, has been laid downby this Parliament, and it is to apply inthe case of 145 local authorities. Thereis one exception, and it is my desire thatthis exception should be made consistentwith others. For anyone to argue againstthe two propositions contained in this Bill,condemns him for the attitude he adoptedwithin recent weeks. All the facts andcircumstances are fresh in our minds andI do not anticipate that there could be anylogical opposition to the measure. Forthat reason I commend the Bill to mem-bers for their support.

Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr.Craig (Minister for Traffic).

STATE HOUSING DEATH BENEFITSCHEME BILL

In Committee, etc.Resumed from the 12th October. The

Chairman of Committees (Mr. W. A.Manning) in the Chair; Mr. O'Neil (Min-ister for Housing) in charge of the Bill.

Clause 11: Delegation by Commissioia ofits powers

The CHAIRMAN: Progress was reportedafter the clause had been Partly con-sidered.

Mr. O'NEIL: As I promised last even-ing, I have had the matter as to whetherthis clause is a necessary Part of the Bill.inquired into. I did point out that itwas an opinion that perhaps the authorityto operate the provisions of this Actshould be given by way of clause 11 toenable officers of the commission to carryout the functions required of them. Thishas been determined as not being thecase. Officers may do things in the nameof the commission, and I propose that theCommittee vote against clause 11 andhave it deleted from the measure.

Clause iput and negatived.Clauses 12 to 16 put and passed.Title put and passed.Bill reported with an amendment.

ANNUAL ESTIMATES, 1965-66In Committee of Supply,

Resumed from the 12th October, theChairman of Committees (Mr. W. A. Man-ning) in the Chair.

Vote: Legislative Council, £20,039-MR. FLETCHER (Fremantle) [8.50

P.m.]: In the absence of anybody elseto take up the cudgel on this debate. Iwill unexpectedly be the next to speak onthe Estimates, after having to hurriedlyaccumulate some material on the subject.

The Treasurer will remember my askinga series of questions relative to the de-terioration of money values. The Trea-surer, like everyone else, gets less valuefor thle money now available. We have toask ourselves why and the obvious answeris inflation. I have endeavoured to pointout, on previous occasions, that the Gov-ernment is on a treadmill in this respect.as is the Federal Government. it justcannot overcome inflation. In effect, itcannot apply the brake.

A member: Which Estimates are youspeaking to?

Mr. FLETCHER: I am speaking to theAnnual Estimates. I am sure that you,Mr. Chairman, would have called me toorder if I had been again speaking on theLoan Estimates. I will be frank enoughto admit that I did make this mistake onone occasion when I rose to speak a secondtime on the Loan Estimates.

A member: You learnt your lesson.

1452

[Wednesday, 13 October, 1965.] 1453

Mr- PLETCHER: It was not a case oflearning my lesson; it could happen toanybody in this House. However, our veryattentive Chairman has not called mec toorder. I was mentioning the need forcontrol, and I asked a question alongthose lines. Just as we have to controla vehicle, so we have to control oureconomy. Just as our mothers and wiveshave to control the economy of the home,intelligently, and impose controls to en-sure that the economy is properly handled,so does this Government-and also theFederal Government-have to impose con-trols on those who step out of line to thedetriment of the people.

I asked why the State, on a State andFederal basis, was not subject to control.In trying to be helpful in this respect, onthe 16th September I asked-amongother things-the following question ofthe Premder:-

(1) With a view to curtailing inflation,will he consider legislation to en-large the arbitration machineryto determine maximum chargesfor goods and services on a similarbasis to that used to determinethe maximum price at which thegeneral working community cancharge for their time and labour?

(2) If not, what grounds of equity orJustice Permit Price control on thelatter-

that is, the price at which the generalworking community can sell its labour;and the Question finishes-

while ignoring the former?The Premier replied, "No', to the firstpart of the question. He would not con-sider enlarging the arbitration machinery,as suggested by the Leader of the Opposi-tion the other evening.

This is not a conspiracy between theLeader of the Opposition and the memberfor Fremantle. We on this side of theHouse can see the situation. That iswhat causes this type of answer. WhenI asked if the Premier would impose thesecontrols, he replied that the arbitrationmachinery was not designed to fix theprice for labour, but to determine theminimum wage. The Government holdsthe view that natural competition is aneffective price determining medium forgoods and services within the community.in effect, the same old shibboleth: com-petition under Private enterprise controlsPrices. We have seen what hias happenedover the Years as regards inflation.

In the Premier's reply there Is no re-ference at all to my comments in relationto justice or equity; no reference at all.After thinking about it for a week andtrying further to be helpful to the Premierand the State, I again asked a relevantquestion on the 21st September, which wasas follows:-

Adverting to the reply to part (2)of question 4 of the 16th September.to the effect that "the Government

holds the view that natural competi-tion is an effective price determiningmedium for goods and services withinthe community," and having in mindthat the State basic wage is increasedsome months after a proven increasein the cost of living-

I repeat, after a proven increase in thecost of living-

on what grounds or to what reasondoes he attribute the inflationaryspiral since the present Government'suninterrupted term of office since1959?

Mr. Brand replied that it was for thesame reason that costs increased whenprice fixing applied to this State.

This answer was not good enough forme, but I could understand the Premier'scurtness; and anybody who analyses thatreply of his will admit that it is a curtreply. I know why it was a curt reply:because the subject is a touchy one, par-ticularly to the interests in St. George'sTerrace. However, not to needle thePremier, but to illustrate the injusticewhich I have mentioned, I refer to athird question which I asked on. the 5thOctober, as follows:-

In his reply on Tuesday, the 21stSeptember, that "costs increased whenprice fixing applied to this State." ishe alluding to-

(a) the Commonwealth wartimecontrol of prices-

I would remind the House that in replyto earlier questions the Premier madereference to the fact that prices still rosewhile price control existed. To continuethe question-

or(b) State legislation regarding

unfair trading and monopoliesand restrictive trade prac-tices?

Let me interpolate here to state that wasthe first piece of legislation taken from theStatute book when I came to this House in1959, and was removed by Whom? Re-moved by this Government. I ask: Whathas happened since in relation to the infla-tionary spiral? No wonder the Premieris short of money for essential purposes.I went on further to ask-

(2) If his reply relates to 1(a) -which was in regard to the Commonwealthwartime controls--

-is he aware that it is generallyaccepted that prices and wageswere never more stable thanduring the war years?

The next question was -(3) If his reply relates to 1 (b) -

which was the unfair trading legislationthat existed -

-is it not a fact that during thecurrency of this legislation pricesof goods and services could be

1454 [ASSEMBLY.]

increased by wholesalers, retailersand others to any level short ofbeing liable to penalty under thelegislation mentioned, whereas onthe other hand minimum wageswere fixed quarterly by the Arbi-tration Court?

That was the unfair trading and restrict-ive trade practices legislation. Pricescould be raised until somebody objectedto them and took a case to a magistratewho was appointed to hear cases regardingthese injustices. However, as 'A conse-quence, very few people took this actionand prices continued to rise: whereas, asI have stated, minimum wages were fixedquarterly by the Arbitration Court. There-fore, surely there was justification for myasserting that since the Arbitration Courtfixed wages why should it not be enlargedto fix prices for goods and services also.

The fourth question I asked reads asfollows:-

(4) Since strict court control appliedto price of wages and not to pricesof goods and services, does beattribute inflation to the influenceof those in receipt of wages,salaries or Pensions or those havinggoods and services for sale?

The Premter replied -(1) to (4) It is quite clear that. in

general terms, prices have con-tinued to rise more or less, bothduring World War II and after,and that this has occurred irres-pective of whether price controlswere imposed. In consequence,the Government is not satisfiedthat price control provides theanswer to these problems.

I note the Premier says "More or less."He is right: it is "more or less." However,I submit that during the currency of thewartime controls any increase was infini-tesimal. I am old enough to rememberthat period. I am old enough to remem-ber the control that existed during the waryears and who, in the subsequent years,continued those controls to the advantageof Australia as a whole. I am also awarethat this control was anathema to busi-ness interests and so the Chifley LaborGovernment was defeated in order to des-troy those controls--

Mr. Dunn: By whom?Mr. FLETCHER: -which had main-

tained a safe and stable economy.Mr. Dunn: Because the people did niot

want it.Mr. FLETCHER: I will deal with that

later. I submit that inflation, as distinctfrom minor increases during that period,has been meteoric since 1949 on a Federalbasis, and since 1959 on a State basis.

Mr. Dunn: For what reason?Mr. FLETCHER: For the reasons I have

outlined: and, in answer to that ridiculousinterjection, and particularly in view of

the case I have submitted, I would re-mind the honourable member that wagesare increased every three months onlyafter a proven situation has existed-thatthe cost of living has increased. I amsurprised at the ignorance of the memberfor Darling Range on this subject. Heinsists on Putting the cart before the horse.I am showing where the horse should be.The horse is the equivalent of risingprices and he is right out in front andwages, like the cart, drag along behind.

Mr. Brand: This happens in Tasmaniadoesn't it?

Mr. FLETCHER: That state of affairshas existed federally since 1949 and it isquite evident to those who study thesethings.

Mr. Court: it is just as well younot talking to the Bills introduced byDeputy Leader of the Opposition orwould be called to task.

aretheyou

Mr. FLETCHER: I should now like toquote an example that touches on countryareas, including the area represented bythe member for Darling Range, and theeconomy of the State as a whole as a con-sequence of no controls. Let me say, too.that I do not ask questions in this Housemerely to establish a record regarding thenumber of questions asked. I ask them fora specific purpose-not to get the usualridiculous replies that I do get, but I re-quire material I can use on occasionssuch as this. I asked the Premier thefollowing question on the 6th October,1965:-

(1) Is he aware-(a) of the 5th October, 1965,

The West Australian comn-ment: "Dispute ThreatensMeat Sales to U.S.";

(b) that overseas shipping com-panies are demanding 10per cent. increase in ship-ping freights to U.S. mar-kets as from the 1st Novem-ber, 1965, with prospects offurther increases early nextyear?

That is on top of the 10 per cent, that theshipping companies threatened us with.To continue-

(2) Will he at the next Premiers' Con-ference urge all State Premiers toprevail upon the Federal Govern-ment to establish a Common-wealth shipping line as an urgentnecessity to-

(a) counter the existing over-seas shipping line monopolyby creating competition;

Competition that this Government allegesit believes in.

(b) ensure that farmers' pro-duce is not priced off over-seas markets;

1454

(Wednesday, 13 October, 1965.1 15

(c) assist the W.A. economy;(d) assist Australia's adverse

trade balance;A period of nearly 12 months has shownthe disparity between exports and imports.I can see the member for Roe appreciatesmy comments and my efforts to help thePastoral industry and the State as a whole.

Mr. Hawke: The member for DarlingRange looks confused now.

Mr. Williams: You can't blame him.Mr. FLETCHER: I thought the last

interjector had more intelligence thanthat.

Mr. Brand: That was the Leader of theOpposition.

Mr, FLETCHER: No; it was not. Iheard the sensible comment of the Leaderof the Opposition. He said that the memn-ber for Darling Range was lookingaskance, or something to that effect, andthe Minister for Industrial Development,I suspect, said, "I am not surprised" orsomething like that.

Mr. Brand: He never opened his mouth.

Mr. FLETCHER: Then it was the Pre-mier.

Mr. Court: I get the blame for enoughas it is.

Mr. O'Connor: You ought to apologise.Mr. FLETCHER: I do not apologise-

I have plenty of time.Mr. Brand: So have we.

Mr. FLETCHER: The final reason Igave for asking the Premier to urge thevarious State Premiers to assist in theestablishment of a Commonwealth ship-ping line was as follows:-

(e) assist to prevent economic domi-nation from an overseas source.

intelligent members would realise what Imeant by that part of the question.

Mr. Dunn: Then we don't.Mr. Hawke: You have struck the mem-

ber for flailing Range right out now.Mr. FLETCHER: Intelligent members

in this Chamber who read economic mat-ters as distinct from sport, or who isgoing to win the football, or the next race,would realise what I am talking about.Those intelligent members would know, forexample, that Canada is economicallydominated by a near neighbour as a con-sequence of investment in Canada; and Iam concerned about a similar overseasdomination of our economy existing hereas a consequence of what I have just out-lined. I hope that elementary explanationis sufficient for the intellect of the unrulyinterjectors from the other side. In answerto my question the Premier replied asfollows:-

(1) Yes.

(2) The situation is being closely ob-served and the Government willtake whatever action it considersnecessary at the appropriate time.

In other words, he is telling the memberfor Fremantle to mind his own business;he is saying in effect, "Mind Your ownbusiness! This side of the House runsthe show and it is none of your businessto ask questions of that nature."

Mr. Brand: I did not say that at all.Mr. FLETCHER: I know that, but I

am sure it was the implication of thereply.

Mr. Brand: I have never been that dis-courteous.

Mr. FLETCHER: I now wish to readbriefly from a Press comment in The WestAustralian of the 12th October, 1965. Itis relevant to meat exports and the head-ing is " Beef Exports Could be Doubled:Expert" and reads as follows:-

The long-term prospects of Austra-lia's beef industries are bright.

Bright for whom? Bright for the ship-ping companies, I would suggest. To con-tinue-

There is now enough world demandto take double the present volume ofAustralian beef being sold on over-seas markets, and at good prices.

Good prices for the shipping lies. Thefarmers who produce it get what St.George's Terrace and the shipping linesleave. To continue the article-

This is the opinion of the Londonchairman of a leading Australasianfirm of meatworks operators and ex-porters.

He is Mr. A. M. Borthwick, chair-man of Thomas Borthwlck and Sons(Australasia) Ltd.. who arrived inBrisbane today to inspect his com-pany's works in Queensland, WesternAustralia and Victoria.

I heard the Minister for Police more orless apologising for quoting from Presscomments. I make no apologies for quot-ing from thenm because, as the DeputyLeader of the Opposition said this even-ing, it is of no use getting up with aspurious argument: one must quote someauthority to support one's contentions;and since my contentions are so unsatis-factory to the other side, to the extentthat I notice the members on the frontbench invariably move out immediately Iget up to speak-

Mr. Dunn: They are still there now.

Mr. FLETCHER: As I said, I makeno apologies for quoting from Press com-ments, and as members opposite will notaccept my opinion I ask them to acceptan expert opinion-in this case it is theopinion of Mr. A. M. Borthwick. I askmembers: Is this article an answer to the

1455

1458 ASSEMBLY.1

question of whether a Commonwealthshipping line should be established toassist Tanners and the State generally;and was I not Justified in asking the Pre-mier to Join with other Premiers in seek-ing its establishment?

Mr. Hawke: You could also quote whatthe Federal Treasurer said.

Mr. FLETCHER: I could; but, as theLeader of the Opposition knows, he dida very smart back-flip immediately over-seas shipping lines took him to task forit. He immediately qualified his earlierremarks. I note the Leader of the Opposi-tion also reads the paper intelligently. Tonly wish others did, too.

Mr. Hawke: I think the Lord of theParts might have Put Pressure on him.

Mr. FLETCHER: That is quite possible;and look at the grandiose title he has re-ceived as a consequence!

The Press is quoted as saying that theassociated habitation provided would notbe suitable for his accommodation. Evenif it were only half the existing standard,I submit it would, and it would serve himright, Particularly in view of what he hasdone to this country's economy. I ask theHouse to consider what no controls havedone to freights in the manner I haveoutlined on a Federal basis. We are ina similar position on a State basis.

Mr. Brand: You want to put bettercontrols on the wharves.

Mr. FLETCHER: In reply to the Trea-surer's interjection, it is quite obvious thatthe Federal Government detested the com-Petition that existed in the days whenthere was a Federal overseas shippingline. When competition was establishedthe Government sold the shipping lineand destroyed the competition that thistype of Government alleges It believes in.

I will give a parallel of what has hap-pened on a State basis. During my brieftime here the present Government hassold the State Building Suppies. It isa wonder the Minister for Industrial De-velopment has not said, "Do not resurrectthat." I resurrect it to show that anyGovernment trading concern that existsis anathema to the interests that thisGovernment represents, so It unloads suchconcerns among its friends to the detri-ment of the community and, in the pro-cess. destroys the competition in whichit is alleged to believe.

Relevant to my earlier comment in re-lation to the control of wages, but noneon goods and services, I would again makereference to the Press to support my con-tention of what could happen when thereis control of the price at which the work-ing community, Includirng salaried people.can sell their labour, but when there isno such control on goods and services.I would refer the House tothe Daily Newsof the 6th October, 1965. 1 think it is

worth reading these few paragraphs.Under the heading "Myer's Record Profit,"we find the following:-

M~yer Emporium Ltd. today reportedthe highest profit ever earned by anAustralian retailer.

This is also pertinent to the commentof the Leader of the Opposition the othernight in regard to the sky being the limitwhere profits are concerned, and in regardto there being a clamp down on the wagesI have mentioned. To continue-

The company disclosed a group netprofit of £5,964,338....

Near enough to £6,000,000 in anybody'slanguage. It goes on to say-

...for the year ended July 3lst-arise of 15 per cent, on the previousyear.

This compares with a profit of£5,277.181 in 1963-64 and £4,804,281 in19 62-63.

So it has gone from £4,000,000£5,000,000 and then to £6,000,000.

to

Mr. Dunn: The value of the pound haschanged.

Mr. FLETCHER: It has also changed forthe unfortunate who gets so little in hisPay envelope. To continue-

Directors also announced in today'spreliminary report that consolidatedsales of the group rose from£121,698,053 to £133,243,860.

The ordinary dividend already an-nounced, has been raised from 161 percent. to 1M per cent.

I know members on that side of the Housewould be very happy to have shares inanything that would return them 17J percent. But let us consider what it is doingto People whom we on this side of theHouse represent. The article continues-

Myer's closest profit rival in thelatest financial year was 0. J. Colesand Co. Ltd., which showed a con-solidated net profit of £4,100,000 forthe Year to January 26.

Woolworths was next with a profitof £3,300,000 to January 31 last.

I need not read any more, but I quotethose figures to show members the tremen-dous profits that have been made on capi-tal outlay. It is nothing to smile about.I know who pays. Members on the otherside, by and large, are not very interested.though those who represent particularelectorates should have some appreciation.As I said earlier, the House does not likemy analysis of the situation, but here isan analysis contained in the Daily Newsof the 6th October, 1965. This even rateda subleader of the same date which says,in part, under the heading "Prosperity-a Myth"-

Many Australians must be longingfor a return to the bad old days.

1456

[Wednesday, 13 October, 1965.1 1457

The trouble with the current doseof supposed prosperity is that most ofus can't afford it.

To continue-The relative decline of living stan-

dards and the appalling slump in mat-ters such as education don't appearto square with pie in the sky propa-ganda.

This is unusual comment to be comingfrom a newspaper which supports the Gov-ernment. One would expect it from themember for Fremantle. But I make noapologies for quoting this material. Tocontinue-

Yet for most Australians real pros-perity is a myth.

Their standard of living has beenslipping over the past 15 months.

I submit it has been slipping over the past15 years on a Federal basis. The extractcontinues--

Only two classes of people have beenrelatively untouched by these Increases-the very rich and the unmarried,teetotal, non-smoking cyclists living inlow-cost housing without telephone ortelevision.

I could add to that by suggesting thatPerhaps beachcombers could be included.If I were to quote figures they would beconsidered suspect, but I will quote themfrom the article I have mentioned. It is asfollows:-

The purchasing power of the averageW.A. wage-earner has been seriouslycut by a chain of increased Govern-ment taxes in the past 15 months.

The latest in a series of financialblows came yesterday with a newscale of increases contained in theState Budget.

That is why I am on my feet: to discussthe State Budget. To continue-

These increases will cost the averageWest Australian at least 3s. a week.according to Daily News calculations.

Not the calculations of the member forFreman tle-

[The Trades and Labour Council to-day assessed that the cost would ulti-mately be much morel]

The latest W.A. taxes come hard onthe heels of Federal Budget increasescosting the average wage earner about12s. Id. a week.

And little more than a year ago theprevious Federal Budget brought in-creases estimated to cost an additional£1 is. 5d. a week.

It all adds up to an increase of £116s. 6d. a week in direct and indirectState and Federal taxes in only 15months.

Against this the Commonwealthbasic wage has remained unchangedat £15 ls.-over the same period-meaning a serious loss in living stan-dards for those in that income group.

I interpolate here to point out that thatis exactly what the Leader of the Opposi-tion said on behalf of the people of thisState the other evening. I know that whatis left of the front bench is not interestedin this, but those on this side of the Houseare. To continue-

In the same period the State basicwage has risen only 9/10 a week to£15/l7/10-representing a net loss inthis respect of £11618.

These figures take no account ofsteep increases in essential com-modities and services over the pastyear.

PLIGHTIf the position of the basic wage

earner is grim, the plight of skilledand white collar workers is not muchbetter.

Particularly have I risen on this score forand on behalf of the skilled and unskilledworker. I am very pleased to see that thePaper has also taken up their cause. Itcontinue--

Average weekly earnings of adultmales in Australia last year-Justbefore the Federal Budget-were926/0/2.

That does not allude to tradesmen, but itis an overall average. I assume it evenincludes our own salaries. They arethrown into the melting pot to create anaverage. To continue-

This year, before the Federal Bud-get, they had risen to £27f9/1-leav-tIg a deficit on Federal taxes alone of4/7? a week.

In Western Australia average weeklyearnings last year were £23/8/- andthey rose this year to £2517/6-anincrease of £111916.

But before West Australians startwhooping at their apparent gain of3/- a week they should remember thatprices of most essential commoditieshave risen far in excess of thatamount.'

Bread and milk prices were in-creased recently. Newspapers costmore. Bus fares went up and carinsurance rates will be substantiallyincreased next month.

In all, the average man who findshimself only £1 or so out of Docketeach week after the past year of greatProsperity, Is fortunate indeed.

These are somne of the increaseswhich the working man has keenlyfelt in the past 15 months:

0 TwQ inc-eases in pereonal incometax.

'ASSEMBLY.]

Extra duties on beer, cigarettes(Twice) petrol, cheques.

Car registration and Licence feesare up.

Telephone charges, television licencesand telegram costs have all gone up.

In the private sector housing costsand the over-all cost of living havegone up and up and up.

I suggest to the House that it is quitesafe for this paper to criticise now, be-cause there is no election pending.

Mr. J. Hegney: You are right there.Mr. FLETCHER: That is the position;

there is no election pending, and the pub-lic memory is short.

Mr. Hawke: I think the Daily News hasa new editor.

Mr. FLETCHER: I think it must have.I often wonder why we stand up in allsincerity here and make pleas for and onbehalf of our people when there areempty galleries in this House. There isnobody here to listen to what we have tosay, including the very few on the otherside of the House.

Brand: Look how your own benches arepacked!

Mr. FLETCHER: I expected that com-ment. Members on this side are away Pre-paring material to later fire back at theTreasurer.

Mr. Brand: Very fiery material.Mr. Hawke: That has quietened the

Premier.Mr. FLETCHER: I will again quote an

authority of greater consequence andgreater ability than the member for Fre-mantle. I quote from the Daily News ofthe 4th September, as follows:-

This week a leading authority onsocial problems warned that W.A. isin danger of creating a "new class" ofpoor people. Professor Eric Sainthead of the W.A. University Depart-ment of Medicine said Perth's pheno-menal growth would bring big prob-lems for the under-privileged.

This gentleman whose name has just beenmentioned is very active on the social ser-vice council of this State. I have attendedmeetings of a medical nature and a socialservice nature at which he has been pre-sent and it would do members good tohear the ability and sincerity of this manon problems of this kind as they affectthe little man-the working man and theman in the street.

As I say. I am glad someone else hasraised this matter. When I do, those onthe front bench opposite seem invariablyto find urgent business elsewhere, Thearticle is by John Mcllwraith and amongother things he quotes Professor Saint ashaving said-

Housing provides a vicious circle forlow-income families-if they pay highrents, they cannot save to buy a home.

Further down the article read--Most builders say a couple would

need £1,500 either in cash, or cash andland to that value, to buy a home.

Let me interpolate here to ask this ques-tion: How many times have I said this tothose on the other side who do not appearto care? The article continues-

But there is another vicious circleInvolving the children of poorer-paidcouples.

Says Dr. Roy Adam, of the W.A. Ui-versity's faculty of education: "Equal-ity of opportunity is the great Austra-lian myth."

We have heard that word before thisevening. Continuing-

In a paper he presented to the Aus-tralian College of Education confer-ence in Brisbane, he said: "Somechildren have less opportunity thanothers to reach full stature."

These would include children whoseparents do not or cannot read books,children who live in the overcrowdeddistricts of big cities and childrenwhose parents have recently migratedto Australia.

I ask members to listen to this-Dr. Adam quotes a survey which

shows that only two per cent, of thesons and one per cent. of the daugh-ters of unskilled or semi-skilled mengo to Australian universities.

Let me interpolate here again to say thathere is a tragedy. I have told membershere before how in my own electorate Ihave written testimonials for boys andgirls of a tender age with a potential in-tellectual ability beyond my own, so thatthey could go out to work to augment theinadequate economy of their households.That is not only a loss to those children;it is a loss to the State, and that is whyI speak on this theme. The article con-tinues--

The sons and daughters of profes-sional people are mare fortunate-26per cent. of the sons and 18 per cent.of the daughters enter university.

Do members see the disparity in thefigures? I ask the Premier: Does he seeIt? On the one hand 25 per cent. of sonsand 18 per cent. of daughters of profes-sional People enter universities, whileon the other hand only 2 per cent. of thesons and 1 per cent, of the daughters ofskilled or semi-skilled workers attend uni-versities. The doctor is quoted as say-Ing-

The proportions have little to dowith natural ability.

The same survey suggests that manychildren who leave school before com-pleting a high school education wouldhave the intelligence to study at uni-versity.

[Wednesday, 13 October, 1965.) 45

Many of these school leavers were inthe top third of their class.

That bears out exactly my commentsmade this evening and which I have madehere before. I will not quote further fromthat article, but I do hope the examples Ihave given will expose to those on theother side-certainly not to empty gal-leries, but to the few here-the funda-mental differences of our party policies.

Under a Liberal Government the drive forprofit, I submit, exposes consumers to adangerous myth of affluence where humanpriorities take second place to the elaborateritual of the salesmen on TV., at the door,and elsewhere. This, as I say, representscapitalism which represents the few;capitalism which grants to each accordingto his greed. I wil spell it: G-R-E-E-D;while Labor policy Is one of each accordingto his need-N-E-E-D. Unfortunately we,the dissidents, on this side of the House.and those we represent, are impotent inthe face of apathy mass produced fromabove through the media I have mentioned.

The Press quotations I have made repre-sent a refreshin-g wind of change-a re-freshing wind which I hope will keep blow-Ing until, and including, the next Federaland State elections. We might thenbreak down this stubborn resistance to anecessary change that seems to be in-herent in the-for wvant of a better word-metabolism of a capitalist society, whichis part and parcel of the body I mentioned.If we could get such a change we couldhave a Labor Goverment representing us,the people, rather than them, the few.

Under the present State and Federalconservative Governments I have noticedshareholders have that lovely, lively, lyri-cal feeling as the rush of takeover bidsmint them money. Liberal election vic-tories cause cheers from the Stock Ex-change which can be heard blocks away,and such victories create a situation whereboard rooms become an annexe to theCabinet room so that Tory Governmentsmay smooth the path of corporate expan-sion and welfare rather than public wel-f are.

Mr. Brand: Where are you reading thatf rom?

Mr. FLETCHER: I am not reading itfrom anywhere. I have carefully pre-pared this material for this occasion, andmy colleagues who are accused of beingabsent, are away preparing something ofthe like.

Mr. Hawke: Hear, hear! It is a pity thePremier Is not enjoying it.

Mr. Brand: I am enjoying it. It is theLeader of the opposition's inference thatit is not enjoyable.

Mr. FLETCHER: I am saying I wouldbe happy to let the light of Labor intothis twilight area where the State andFederal Governments and private indus-try interact to the public detriment.

This Government was not elected becauseof the vote for a single party. It is acoalition Government. No single party, asI pointed out before, can defeat the LaborParty. The Liberal Party cannot do it onits own, and neither can the Country Partyor the D.L.P. Collectively it can be done.This applied on a Federal basis to such afine extent that recently there was only adifference of 17.000 people who decidedwhether or not Labor was to be in power.Seventeen thousand Is not many out of8,000,000-odd. Seventeen thousand couldeasily be accommodated at a footballmatch, but that is the fine balance thatexists. However, that does not justify theFederal Government Inflicting on thepeople the misery I have mentioned,misery as a consequence of which ourwomen are driven out to work, not of theirown choice, but merely because ofeconomic need.

Mr. Grayden interjected.Mr. FLETCHER: I ask the member for

South Perth to wait his opportunity tospeak. I know his Interjection was notunkind, but I have not time to listen toit. As I say, women are driven out of theirhomes not of their own choice, but be-cause of economic need, as a consequenceof the detrimental effect of this economyon their family.

Prices now, I submit, are based on theassumption that someone can pay and--excuse the language-to hell. with thosewho cannot! Professor Saint's estimateof the percentage of underprivileged hasborne out what I said here this eveningand what I have said over the years. Pricesof land, homes, goods, dental and medi-cal care, fear of sickness, and consequentloss of income have driven mothers andwives out to work to help the householdeconomy.

On the other hand thousands of poundsof the taxpapers' money is spent to importassisted migrants, yet we retain the socialdisorder I mentioned, wvhich drives potentialmothers-I repeat potential mothers-outto work, and drives them to the "Pill" Sothat motherhood will not interfere withproviding food and necessities including aroof over their heads. What is the result?Fewer children in Western Australia withthe consequent need to import citizensfrom overseas at the taxpayers' expense.

I suggest that the difference betweenwhat it costs to import citizens from over-seas and the £10 that they Pay themselvestowards their passage could well go to-wards helping the householders I havementioned rather than drive these womenfolk out to work to augment an inadequateincome. One man's income is not suffi-cient to mstintain a reasonable standard ofIiving at this point of time. As I said.womren rlo not go out to work of theirown choice. They go out through sheereconomic need.

1459

1480 [ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. Orayden: This is not the onlycountry or State in which the women takethe "Pill.-

Mr. Brand: I presume it happens in Tas-mania.

A member: Why bring the "Pill"~ intoIt? It Is not relevant.

Mr. FLETCHER: The "Pill" is relevant.I suggest that if there was a better pros-pect of a future for our kiddies here inthis State, then we would have the home-grown variety instead of the importedvariety of citizen.

I have here further newspaper cuttingsto support my argument in connectionwith the difficulties appertainirng to hous-ing and land, which are left to the specula-tors; and this, it appears, is more or lesscondoned by the existing Government.

Mr. Grayden: Rents here are a fractionof what they are in the Eastern States;and so are the prices of homes.

Mr. PLETCHER: The honourable mem-ber may get satisfaction out of that, butthe unfortunate people that I am attempt-Ing to defend here do not get any satis-faction from the fact that people in otherStates of the Commonwealth are worseoff than they are. I am submitting myargument on behalf not only of the peopleof Fremantle, but those of the wholeState; and when I refer to the State Ialso mean the state into which this Gov-ernment has placed Western Australia.Fortunately I have found something fur-ther.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. W. A. Manning):Order! The honourable member has onlyfive minutes left.

Mr. FLETCHER: I will use them togood advantage in relation to housing.and I will deal with as many quotationsas I can. over an advertisement whichappeared on Saturday, the 14th Augustlast, I wrote a heading, "Speculation inLand." The advertisement states-

Partnerone of Perth's major reputable

real estate firms requires a new part-ner.

The new partner will share equallyin the profits of the business. In thepast year his share of the net incomewould have been well over £5,000.This should be considerably Increasedby the Introduction of the new partner.

Further down the advertisement con.tinues-

since the appointment is beingmade to gain a talented addition tothe partnership, the financial con-siderations are extremely attractiveand can be discussed at interview.

Interested applicants should writepersonally in strict confidence, mark-ing their envelope, "Personal".

People rubbish the Labor Party, but Iam more gentlemanly and will not rubbishthe avaricious business institution that isresponsible for that advertisement. Theamount mentioned was £5,000, and thepromise was for more than £5,000 in thesubsequent year. I ask: At whose expensewill that income be made; and by whomare such practices condoned? There isfreedom for private enterprise to do that.

Let mue quote something from the Aus-tralian Labor Party Federal Secretariat.The heading to this paragraph is, "TheGreat Housing Swindle," and it refers tothe subsidy that the working people are.supposed to get. It states-

After a delay of six months, theFederal Minister for Housing (Mr. L.Bury), brought down the promisedlegislation to provide a housing sub-sidy of £250 for £750 saved, on Tues-day, 5th May, 1964.

only aL passing reference was madeby the Minister to the other Liberalelection promise to establish a mort-gage insurance corporation.

Further down we find the heading,"Minister Would Not Understand"; andthis extract is from the Daily Mirror ofthe 6th May, 1984, as follows:-

The day after his speech in theFederal Parliament, the HousingMinister told Ray Kerrison:

I wouldn't understand a wordof this myself if I were not theauthor of it and its principles.

Did members hear that? To continue-If the Minister can only understand

the Bill because he wrote it, howdoes he expect young people, anxiousfor the promised benefit, to knowwhat they are entitled to when heused such sentences as:

The forms chosen are in ag-gregate those in which the greatbulk of personal saving for a homeis accumulated.

That is a lot of gobbledygook. Listen tothis paragraph uinder the heading "YoungPeople Deceived."-

Worse than the platitudes, however,is the way in which thousands ofyoung people have had their "brighthopes" dimmed and even extinguished.

on election eve Sir Robert Menzieswrote:

... the Government's housingpolicy is designed to help youngpeople planning marriage byoffering subsidies of £1 to £3 tosaved deposits on land or homes.

That extract was taken from the Mel-bourne Herald of the 29th November,1983. Later we find this-

Mr. Bury nailed this lie in the op en-ing sentence of his speech on 5th May.1964, when he said;

The purpose of this Bill is tohelp young married couples ob-tain a home of their own.

1460

[Wednesday, 13 October, 1965.] 1461

He did not refer to young people whowere planning marriage. This is an im-mediate reversal. To continue-

He stressed this point later whenhe said emphatically:

i aa grant will not be paidtan unmarried person.

Further on in this election gimmick wefind-

Nor is it £3 per week that the elig-ible person has to save but £4 16s. 4d.for every week for three years.

Admittedly, there Is no "maximumsavings period' but there is a maxi-mum In any given year of £250. Mr.Bury said:

... there should obviously bea limit on the amount of accept-able saving in a year.

That extract is taken from FederalHansard of the 5th May, 1964.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. W. A. Manning):Order! The honourable member's time hasexpired.

Mr. PLETCHER: I am very glad I gotin that final broadside!

MR. HART (Roe) [9.60 p.m.]: I wishto add a few remarks to this debate, andI feel at the outset that my line of thoughtwill be a little different from that of themember for Fremantle.

I consider I should commend the Pre-mier on the very strong and forthrightEstimates and plans he has put forwardfor the coining year. Western Australiais in the position where it has nothing todo but go forward and expand.

We have Just listened to the memberfor Fremantle and he has voiced certainfears and dangers that are alarming upto a point, but he has not put forwardany remedy for them.

Mr. Moir: I think his remedy was quiteclear: get rid of this Government.

Mr. HART: The remedy is to do what isoutlined in the Estimates, and that is togo ahead, and that is what we are doing.If we stand still we die. That occurs toall, including farmers, business people, andso on. We can either go ahead or standstill. Undoubtedly we are going to haveplenty of Problems in the future, but wehave to face up to them. I have no illu-sions about the immediate future; I thinkone of the greatest problems many of uswill have to face will be rising costs: andth- Government will have that Problem,too.

Mr. Davies: Give us a remedy.Mr. HART: In spite of rising costs we

have to go ahead because our problemswill be greater if we stand still.

I shall try to give a Picture of just whereagricultuare stands in Western Australia to-day in relation to all the other expansionthat is taking place. Perhaps a quick turn

around the State and a return to agricul-ture might give an idea of what I wish toput forward. Certainly our industrial de-velopment is making rapid strides in West-ern Australia today and is going aheadin no uncertain way; and this is verygood for Western Australia. I know thecost is great and that the Government isinvolved in many things that are takingplace.

If we turn our eyes to the north we seewhat is being done in regard to iron oredevelopment, Capital expenditure ofsomething like £400,000,000 has been men-tioned. B.H.P. is investing to the ex-tent of about £100,000,000, also.

This is all very wonderful, and on a long-term basis it must be good. If we look atthe Premier's Estimates for the comingyear, we find a figure of £102,000.000. Thatis something to be proud of, too: and thereare plenty of problems in connection withit. The figure 10 years ago was £49,000,000.That is the way we are going, and thatis good.

Turning to agriculture and the part thatagriculture plays in Western Australia, Ithink it is reasonable to expect at thisstage that Co-operative Bulk Handling willreceive 100,000,000 bushels of grain-"allgralns"-this coming harvest. If we turnback 10 years, as I did with the Estimates.-we find the average then was about40,000,000 bushels. That is something thatis well in keeping with the overall expan-sion in Western Australia.

The Leader of the Opposition made afew remarks last evening on sheep andwool, and I think he commented on thelower returns last season. Again the over-all picture for the 10 years tells the samestory, because for the year ended the 31stMarch, 1954, some 14,000,000 sheep wereshorn in Western Australia for 127,000,000pounds of greasy wool. Ten years later,21.000,000 sheep were shorn yielding207,000,000 pounds of wool, representing anincrease of 60 Per cent. over the 10-yearperiod.

Getting back to the query raised withrespect to the drop in the wool returns lastyear, I find that in 1963-64, when we hadgood returns, the average price was66.8'7d. per pound for greasy wool. Lastseason-1964-65--t dropped to 55.8'7d. perpound, a drop of lid, per pound; and ofcourse that means quite a few millionpounds, overall, to Western Australia. Inround figures this decline in the price ofwool last season-in the 12 months to theend of June this Year-amounted to some-thing like £82,000,000. It would be reason-able to assume that of that sum, WesternAustralia lost about £9,000,000.

The drop in these returns last season,I would say, was due mainly to the numer-ous vagaries of the auction system. Onthis question of wool selling, the wool-growers will soon vote on the proposed

1462 ASSEMVBLY.]

minimum reserve selling price. I do notwish to say anything about the vote thatis to be taken tonight except to saythat I feel that in support of a "Yes' votewe could bear in mind that throughoutAustralia we have something like eightor nine Commonwealth-wide marketingauthorities handling our primary productswith great benefit to Australia as a whole;and throughout our various States we havesomething like 55 State marketing auth-orities.

All these authorities were brought intobeing by the vote of the growers, and Ihave Yet to learn of any one of theseauthorities of an appreciable size beingvoted out by the growers; and they areopen to being voted out at any time.

I think wool is about the only com-modity that does not come under somesemblance of organised control; and theanswer to that question lies with thosewho wish to give it serious thought. Thosecomments give a fairly clear picture ofwhere we are going In Western Australiaand the part that agriculture is playingand has played.

There is no doubt in my mind that inthe foreseeable future we will be export-Ing 120,000,000 bushels of grain; we willhave over 25,000,000 sheep; and more than20,000,000 acres of developed pas-tare. I feel these figures are quite inter-esting and bear out the strength of agri -culture to Western Australia in the pastand the strength it will be in the future.I appreciate that other developments aretaking place, but I think we should becareful to ensure that we maintain thestable income of Western Australia thatwe have leaned on for so many years.

The point I am coming back to nowis one X have mentioned before; namely.that I feel that with our agricultural de-velopment as it is in Western Australiathere is a need-and I think the need iswell supported by many people, includingmembers of this House-of some form offinancial assistance for a Percentage ofour new farmers.

I have raised this question before, andI raise it again tonight because, althougha great deal of thought has been givento it, we have not yet reached the posi-tion of being able to accomplish anything.I know it is easy to say, "Why should weinvolve the Government in its financialworries and with more land settlementschemes? Already we receive 10 or 12 ap-plications for every block of land that isavailable and we have difficulty in allo-cating the land to successful applicants."

The point I wish to raise is that someform of allocation should be adopted togrant land to young farmers, Perhaps onthe same conditions that were laid downunder the war service land settlementscheme; because, with wheat and sheepfarms in particular, the finance requiredis so great and the risks so numerous that

unless something is done to assist a certainsection of intending farmers which repre-sents, say, 10 per cent. of applicantsfor land, they will never become farmers.

I am firm on the point that that sectionof young intending farmers will repre-sent a great loss to the future of WesternAustralia if they are not granted finan-cial assistance to obtain the land they re-quire. The other 80 per cent, or 90 percent. of those seeking land are able toget started and battle along; but if wecould see our way clear to assist that10 per cent. of the farmers who will proveto be good settlers in the future, it wouldbe of advantage to the State. If one wereto go around Western Australia one wouldfind in all districts some of the bestfarmers in Western Australia; and, onmaking inquiries, one would discover thatthey started from scratch and, togetherwith a little bit of luck were able to keepgoing. However, those days are finishednow.

I appeal again to the Premier and tothe Deputy Premier for further considera-tion to be given to assisting young farmersfinancially because such a move would bewell worth while, and I hope this sugges-tion will be considered by them in thenear future.

ProgressProgress reported and leave given to sit

again, on motion by Mr. Mitchell.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACTAMENDMENT BILL (No. 2)

Second ReadingI. NALDER (Katanning-Minister for

Agriculture) L10.3 p.m.]: I move-That the Bill be now read a second

time.The purpose of this Bill is to provide

amendments to a number of sections of theLocal Government Act that have beenbrought to the attention of the Govern-ment, and with the approval of the asso-ciations concerned. The majority of theamendments are to rectify small anomaliesthat have cropped up in the Act. Thereare 20 clauses involved in the Bill, and Iwill deal with each in turn.

Clause 2, firstly, proposes to amendsection 10 of the Act. This section pro-vides for a6 poll of electors of a muni-cipality to vary the mode of election ofa, mayor or president. The amendmentensures that at least 20 per cent. of theelectors or ratepayers who are entitled tovote must do so in order that a Poll Shallbe valid. This will mean that where apoll of this nature is demanded, 20 percent. or more electors entitled to partici-pate do so; otherwise no change can bemade in the mode of election. Thisamendment, and others to be dealt withshortly, have been included at the requestof the Local Government Association.

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[Wednesday. 13 October, 1965.] 1463

Clause 3 refers to subsection 2 (e) ofsection 12, which gives authority to theGo~ernor to alter the name of a muni-cipality. It has been considered desirableto make provision in this subsection forthe alteration of the name of any wardof a municipality in addition.

The fourth clause adds after section 19a new section 19A. This deals with thesituation where portion of one municipaldistrict is severed therefrom and annexedto another district. Section 19 coverscases of severance and annexation wherea new ward is created, but does not dealwith the case of an annexed area that issimply added to an existing ward. Thisomission in the Act will be corrected bythe proposed amendment contained in thisclause.

The next amendment, in clause 5, Issimilar to that mentioned in clause 2, inso far as at least 20 per cent. of electorsentitled to vote at a poll are required toparticipate to make it effective. The pollreferred to in this case is that which maybe 'required by the Minister upon thepresentation of a petition.

At the request of the Country ShireCouncils' Association, a new section 43Ais inserted in the Act by clause 6.It will enable a member of a councilto given written notice to the councilthat he intends to resign from hisomfce as from a specified future date.Following this, it is made possible bythe amendment to take the action neces-sary to fill the anticipated vacancy beforethe resignation becomes effective.

I now refer to clause 7, and here anamendment is proposed to section 121 topermit the counting of votes in municipalelections to Proceed in accordance withthe Act in cases where electors fail toplace a number in the space providedalongside only the last preference in anelection involving multiple candidates.

Clause 8 seeks to amend section 174 topermit a member of a council to speakon a matter before the council in whichhe has an interest. This permission appliesonly where the interest of the memberis so remote or trivial as to be of littleinfluence on the result. This amendmentis based upon the existing English prac-tice.

Another amendment proposed to thissame section will enable a council memberwho has an interest in a matter underdiscussion to take part in it provided amajority of the council so decides.although the prohibition on his voting onthe matter still applies. The proposedamendment makes Provision for a recordof the council's decision to be kept in theminute book and also as to his abstainingfrom Participating in the vote. It has beenfound that it would be in the interests ofthe council and the district for a memberso barred by the Act to take part in thediscussion and so assist the council inreaching the correct decision.

Clause 9 is a simple amendment to cor-rect a typographical error occurring in theAct.

The next amendment, contained in clause10, will add a section 199A to the Act. Thiswill include authority for a council to makeby-laws for the control of holiday camps.This control is similar to that exercisedover caravan parks.

Clause 11 refers to section 244 of theAct and enables a council, where it removesanything deposited in a street, to disposeof it without incurring liability for dam-ages.

Clause 12. An amendment to section 400will permit, as in the case of the redevelop-ment scheme in the City of Fremantle,Premises on either side of a pedestrian mallof not more than 33 feet in width to extendtheir buildings over that mall at a heightof about 15 feet. This will allow better useof the land and also add to its appearance.

In addition, a further amendment to thissection will make the prohibition of veran-dabs on posts effective in every districtthat makes a by-law for this particularpurpose. At present this section has theauthority to compel the removal of veran-dabs or posts, but it appears to give aright of re-erection.

Now to deal with clause 13. At presentsection 520 of the Act provides that acouncil may construct a crossing for aratepayer at the cost of the ratepayer,whereas in section 358 councils bear halfthe cost of the crossings. This conflict inthe Act will be eliminated by the deletionof the word 'crossings" from section 520.

The amendment in clause 14 will includegrants received or sums reimbursed by theCommissioner of Main Roads in respect ofworks carried out by a council, in thedefinition of ordinary revenue of a muni-cipality.

This amendment has been considerednecessary to dispel any doubt that mainroad grants are rightly regarded as or-dinary revenue of the council, and thatsums reimbursed are available for generalpurposes.

Clause 15 seeks to amend section 533,and is similar to others already proposedin this Bill that deal with the required 20per cent, of electors entitled to vote, doingso in order to make the poll effective. Thissection deals with a poll of ratepayers onthe question of whether the system ofvaluation in a district should be altered.

An amendment to section 540 is providedby clause 16, at the request of the LocalGovernment Association, because it has ex-perienced a great deal of inconveniencefrom ratepayers, particularly land agents.exercising their right under the Local Gov-erment Act to inspect the rate book inorder to obtain information relating totheir business activities. This is particu-larly troublesome where a card system isIn operation. The proposal is to enableratepayers to see the valuation register,

[ASSEMBLY.]

which will Provide the desired information,leaving rate book cards available for theuse of staff members.

The amendment In clause 17 affects sec-tion 599, and will make it clear that therevenue for overdraft purposes includesGovernment grants for roads. The nextclause, number 18, is also similar to thosedealing with requirements that a poll shallrequire at least 20 per cent, of electorsqualified and voting to make a poll effec-tive. Section 611, which it is sought toamend, refers to polls relating to loans.

Clause 19 includes a proposed new sec-tion 624A in the Act. This will allow anadvance not exceeding £5,000 to be acceptedby a council from an owner of any ratableland within the district to carry out workrequested by an owner such as the con-struction of a road giving access to a sub-division. The approval of the Minister willbe required in that he would considerwhether such an arrangement would begood for the district. The advance wouldbe redeemable out of future rates. Thisamendment is based on section 178A ofthe New South Wales Act.

Finally, clause 20 proposes to include anew section 691A in the Local GovernmentAct. This proposal is supported by thethree associations concerned with localgovernment, and seeks to allow a councilto confer the titular honour of being an"honorary freeman of the municipality"on an outstanding citizen, or on a distin-guished visitor, such as a member of theRoyal Family or the head of a State. Thisis similar to an honorary degree conferredby the University.

Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr.Toms.

JENNACUBBINE SPORTS COUNCIL(INCORPORATED) HILL

Second ReadingMR. LEWIS (Moore-Minister for

Education) [10.15 p.m.): I move-That the Bill be now read a second

time.This legislation is required to enable the

assets of the now defunct JennacubbineRace Club Incorporated to be vested in abody to be known as the JennacubbineSports Council Incorporated.

Various leading citizens in the district,most of whom are former members of therace club, have conceived the idea of form-ing a sports council for the district, and oftaking over the former race course for thepurpose of constituting a general sportingarea within which all sports may have theirgrounds. A general meeting of citizens dis-cussed and approved the idea, there being.so I am informed, no opposition. Theshire council has also expressed itsapproval.

A draft constitution has been preparedfor the new association and approved bya number of sporting clubs in the area,

which have agreed to become the founda-tion constituent bodies. Sports repre-sented include football, cricket, tennis.hockey, and basketball. membership willalso be open to any other sporting bodythat wishes to join.

it is proposed that the council be incor-porated under the Associations Incorpor-ation Act and steps will be taken to do thisImmediately the race club's land and otherassets, comprising some £800 In a bank atNortham, can legally be vested In It. Un-fortunately, this transfer cannot be madeother than by legislation.

The rules of the race club Provide thatthe president and other officers of the com-mittee shall retire annually: also that nomember is competent to vote on any occas-ion unless he has paid his subscription forthe current year. The last general meet-ing of members was held, I believe, in 1953,and no committee has since been elected.No persons have Paid subscriptions sincethat date and hence no-one is eligible tovote.

The race club is therefore defunct and nolegal means exist whereby it can be resur-rected. Consequently this legislation hasbeen brought forward to resolve this di-lemma. I commend the Bill to the House.

Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr.Hlawke (Leader of the Opposition).

GOVERNMENT RAILWAYS ACTAMENDMENT BILL

Second ReadingMR. COURT (Nedlands-Miniszer for

Railways) F10.19 p.m.]: I move-That the Hill be now read a second

time.This Bill is one wvhich arises out of thetransaction between the Western Auis-tralian Government and the Midland Rail-way Company, which was ratified by thisParliament. It deals specifically with landand other assets acquired from the MidlandRailway Company of Western Australia. Inaccordance with deeds signed by the liquid-ator of the company on the 1st August.1964, all assets of the Midland RailwayCompany were vested in the Minister forRailways. Included in these assets weremineral licenses granted by the companyto mine various minerals from land pre-viously owned by it. I think some of theolder members of this House will recallthat there was a time when these mineralrights followed the land, and In respect ofsome of these mineral rights the MidlandRailway Company retained them.

There was some legal argument betweenthe Government and the Midland RailwayCompany from time to time regarding theexact ownership of certain mineral rights.

Mr. Brady: Who won the argument?Mr. COURT: We did, because we bought

the Midland Railway Company, and it waspart of the agreement that all rights andprivileges enjoyed by the company passed

[Wednesday, 13 October, 1965.] 46

to the Western Australian GovernmentRailways. The honourable member willrealise as he studies the Bill that it is toregularise the mining transactions as be-tween the Railways Department and theMines Department, by putting them intothe department where they rightly belong.

Mr. Brady: Did the case go to litigation?Mr. COURT: The main argument did

not go to litigation. There was alwaysthe threat of litigation and the fear In themind of the Government of the day thatIf It was ever tested legally the companymight have established a legal right. As ithappened, the purchase of the MidlandRailway Company by the State resolvedthis problem. We are hardly likely to enterInto litigation against ourselves.

Included in the assets that were acquiredby the Minister for Railways from the Mid-land Railway Company were mineral rightsgranted by the company to mine variousminerals on land previously owned by it.The crucial date so far as the land titlesand the division of mineral rights from thefreehold title were concerned goes back to1899. All land acquired before the 1stJanuary, 1899, had certain rights whichland, allocated after that date, did nothave.

Under the construction agreement-thatis, the Midland Railway Company agree-ment, which is commonly known as theWaddington agreement-and confirmed bythe Guildford-Greenough Flats RailwayAct, No. 24 of 1886, approximately2,500,000 acres of land were granted tothe company. The major portion of thisland has been sold and transferred toPurchasers, but the company retained themineral rights as a residual interest inthe titles.

In addition, the company was grantedmineral rights under the War ServiceLand Settlement Acts of 1951-54. Thesemineral rights are now vested in the Min-ister for Railways, and the present posi-tion Is that there are two separate gov-ernment departments dealing with mineralrights; that is, the Mines Department andthe Western Australian GovernmentRailways Commission.

The Mines Department, by its officers,is specially set up and trained to conductall dealings in minerals, whereas theRailways Commission does not haveofficers trained in mining matters. Thepresent situation Is that these mineralrights are held in respect of land ownedby third parties, and are not in respectof land vested in the Minister; and theminerals are not on land held or used inconnection with the railway. Neither theMiluster for Railways nor the RailwaysCommission has the power to deal withthese minerals, or to issue any leases ormining tenements with them.

The proposed amendment to the Gov-ernment Railways Act provides for revest-ing in Her Majesty of all mineral rights

that were formerly held by the MidlandRailway Company of Western Australia,and which are now vested in the Ministerfor Railways, pursuant to the agreementmade by the liquidator of the company.These rights will be controlled by theMines Department, and uniformity ofadministration will be ensured.

The Bill also provides that all propertyvested in the Minister for Railways bythe liquidator of the company shall bevested in the Minister for Railways onbehalf of Her Majesty; and where suchproperty is not required for the purposeof the railway, the Minister may sell,dispose of. or otherwise deal with it underterms and conditions as are considerednecessary.

It will be appreciated that as anordinary purchaser, the Railways Com-mission in regard to the assets previouslyowned by the Midland Railway Company-including the land-is in a differentposition from the Railways Departmentwhen it develops a railway through landresumptions and through funds that aremade available in the ordinary way fromloan funds and the like. There is, there-fore, special provision in this legislationfor land and other assets which are nolonger required for railway purposes tobe dealt with as circumstances dictatefrom time to time.

To summarise the Bill, it clarifies theposition in respect of mineral rightsformerly held by the Midland RailwayCompany and vested in the Minister forRailways by virtue of the acquisition ofthe Midland Railway Company. It alsoclarifies the position in respect of thedisposal of assets acquired by the Ministerfor Ralways and the Railways Commnis-sion as a result of the agreement withthe liquidator of the company.

Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr.Brady.

TAX[-CARS (CO-ORDINATIONAND CONTROL) ACT AMENDMENT

BILLSecond Reading

MR. O'CONNOR (Mt. Lawley-Ministerfor Transport) [10.23 p.mn.]: I move-

That the Bill be now read a secondtime.

The Act, as it stands. sets up a TaxiControl Board to co-ordinate and controlthe taxi industry. Provision is made forthe control and licensing of taxi-cars butthe board, which has been operating fornearly 18 months, from its experience todate finds that its general Purpose cannotbe fulfilled, unless some specific powerexists to control and regulate the opera-tions of taxi-car drivers.

The general power to examine applica-tions. and to test and license drivers oftaxis is administered by the Commissioner

1465

(COUNCIL.]

of Police under the Traffic Act, and theBill does not Propose to disturb this autho-rity in any way.

In an attempt to exercise some controlover drivers of taxis, as well as controlover taxi owners, the board has been Pro-vided with certain powers under the taxi-car regulations, 1964. These regulationsare identical with the Traffic (Taxi-Cars)Regulations, 1964, which give the boardand the Commissioner of Police respect-ively power to require the operator of ataxi to do all things necessary for thecomfort and convenience of passengers,not to demand other than prescribed faresand charges, and to be clean and to wearclothing which is neat in appearance.

The board's regulations also requireevery driver of a taxi operating in itssphere of control, the metropolitan trafficarea, to wear an identity disc. This isnecessary, both in the interests of passen-gers and the board's inspectors, for thepurpose of enabling identification of thedriver.

To the extent that the taxi-cars Act,1963. in its long title, only refers to theco-ordination and control of taxi-cars andmakes no reference to taxi-car drivers, itis felt that any of the regulations as affect-ing drivers, as distinct from owners oftaxis, and promulgated pursuant to thetaxi-cars Act, 1963, could be challengedas being ultra vires the existing Statute.

The main purpose of this Bill is, there-fore. to amend the long title of the Act andgive the board specific power in respectof drivers of taxis as well as owners oftaxi-cars.

Section 11 of the Act sets out the powersand duties of the Taxi Control Board andit is proposed to amend this section toenable the board to include the registra-tion of taxi-car drivers.

This addition will enable the board torequire all drivers of taxis to register andto renew such registration each year, andbe issued with some form of identification.At present, considerable difficulty is beingexperienced as drivers, when changingtheir employment or changing theiraddress, are failing to notify the board ofsuch change.

The Bill makes provision for paymentof a registration fee of l0s. or such otherfee, not exceeding £2, as may be provided.It is not intended at the present junctwreto vary the fee of 10s. per annum, most ofwhich is absorbed in the issue of theidentity disc, but it may be necessary toincrease the fee in the future.

It has been the policy of the Govern-ment for some considerable time to restrictthe Issue of taxi licenses, as far as prac-ticable, to owner-drivers and any transferswhich are approved by the board are per-mitted only to persons who are genuinelyenraged as taxi-operators and who havebeen driving a taxi continuously for aperiod of at least four months. The Bill

contains a provision that the board shallnot issue a license or permit a transferto a person who holds two or more taxilicenses.

As the regulations stand at present, theboard's inspectors, when they notice thata taxi, its meter, or its equipment is in anunserviceable condition, shall report thatfact to the licensing or registering author-ity. This is not a very satisfactory methodof ensuring that early action is taken bythe owner or driver of the taxi to havenecessary repairs effected. The proposedlegislation gives an inspector the authorityto require the owner to submit the taxi-car, within such time as he then specifies,to the authority by which it is licensed. Italso gives an inspector, where he considersthat a taxi-car, whilst being operated ina control area, is so unclean as to be likelyto mark or damage the clothing or luggageof a passenger, the power to direct thedriver of the taxi to have the taxi cleaned,within such time as he specifies.

The Government is mindful of the factthat the taxi industry, having well over£1,500,000 invested in vehicles and equip-ment, is an important part of the passen-ger service of the State and is, therefore,anxious that drivers and vehicles as pre-sented to the public should maintain astandard that compares with the best inAustralia.

Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr.Graham.

House adjourned at 10.33 p.m.

I-rgilatuc hnttThursday, the 14th October, 1965

CONTENTSpage

BILLS-Licensing Act Amendment Bill (No. 2)-2r. 1475Statute Law Revision Bll-2r.......1~1473Statute Law Revision Bill (No. 2)-2r. 1474Supply Bill (No. 2), £2,OO,000-2r. 1478The City Club (Private) Bill-2r. .. .. 1469Traffic Act Amendment Bill (No. 2)-2r. 1469Vermin Act Amendment Bill-2r. 1468Wills Bill-Zr..........1472

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE-Noxious Weeds :Cheek Points-

Additions on Standard Gauge RailwayLine...........1467

Port Pinle :Arrangement with SouthAustralian Government .... .. 1467

Police Stations-Flag Poles :Cost or In-stling .... ... -. .. . 1468

Skim Milk from Treatment Plants-Inclusion In Proprietary Call Foods. ... 1467Supply for Stock :Milk Board's Ban 1467

QUESTION WITHOUT NOTICE-Hillcrest Maternity Hospital :Closure .. 1467

The PRESIDENT (The Ron. L. C. Diver)took the Chair at 2.30 p.m., and readprayers.