I Will Survive: The Life Story of Henry Greenbaum, a Holocaust Survivor

Interviewer: Michael McMillen Interviewee: Henry Greenbaum

Instructor: Glenn Whitman Date of Submission: February 13, 2013

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Table of Contents

Interviewee Release Form 3 Interviewer Release Form 4 Statement of Purpose 5 Biography 6 The Third Reich: The History of Adolf Hitler and his Rise to Power 8 Interview Transcription 15 Analysis Paper 48 Works Consulted 52

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Statement of Purpose

The purpose of the American Century Oral History Project is to bring unknown survivors

or people who have lived through an event to the forefront and preserve their story. This

project is mainly to show readers, through a convergence of evidence, the viewpoint of a

person who lived through and/or experienced an event that was historically significant.

Through the interview, one acquires a very detailed knowledge of a certain period or

event. After researching the Holocaust (1939-1945) and interviewing Henry Greenbaum,

a Holocaust survivor, I learned more about the Holocaust in two hours than I had in my

entire history class.

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Biography: Henry Greenbaum

Henry Greenbaum was born in Strachowice, Poland on April 1, 1928. He was

raised by his mother and father in Strachowice. His father ran a tailor business through

their house; as Mr. Greenbaum puts it, a “mom and pop store” (McMillen 17). When the

Germans invaded their small town, every Jew in their town was deported to the

Strachowice ghetto where he was kept for two years. During the holding, three of his five

sisters were deported to Treblinka and killed. He was later moved to a slave labor camp,

where he and his sister Faige attempted an escape with a Jewish policeman. After being

shot in the back of the head, he woke up. The guards called roll to see who had escaped,

and he realized that his sister Faige had been killed during the escape. After that, Henry

was moved to Auschwitz-Birkenau, the major killing center in Poland during the

holocaust. He was sent on a death march from there when the Germans heard that

Russian troops were liberating camps. On the death march, he was liberated by American

troops and freed from German control. He met up his sister who lived in America through

a mutual friend after his liberation. Later that year, Henry moved to America and

restarted his life. He went to several army bases and museums to tell his story because of

a promise he made to his family and friends during internment: If someone gets out alive,

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they must tell the story of the Holocaust. He now lives in Bethesda, Maryland and gives

seminars every Friday at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum to tell his story

of survival to history classes and families alike. Mr. Greenbaum’s story is important to

retell and to learn about because it offers insight into almost all key factors of the

Holocaust, including a survival of Auschwitz-Birkenau, something that was very

uncommon.

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The Third Reich:

The History of Adolf Hitler and his Rise to Power

Many know the Holocaust as a series of events that led to the genocide of almost

6 million European Jews, equal to one-third of the European Jewish population.

However, it was much more than just the genocide of the Jewish people. The “Final

Solution” was a plan created by Adolf Hitler, originally presented at the Wannsee

Conference held in Wannsee, a small suburb of Berlin on January 20, 1942. This plan

was carried out by the Nazi SS units, or the German police force. The Final Solution was

Hitler’s plan to eradicate the Jewish population of Europe and to create a safe land for the

Aryan race, which were mostly people of German descent. All of this culminated into one

event that will remain in the limelight for many years to come; the Holocaust. Hitler’s

leadership in the Holocaust was vital to the plan, but to understand the Holocaust, one

must examine Hitler’s rise to power, World War II, and “Final Solution,” as well as gain

a first-hand perspective from someone who was there.

Adolf Hitler was born in Austria on April 20, 1889, to his father, Alois

Schtickelgruber Hitler, and his third wife, the young Klara Poelzl. From a very young

age, Adolf Hitler was a hateful and resentful boy. At the age of 16, he left school to

become a painter in Vienna. However, he was quickly rejected by the Viennese Academy

of Fine Arts. This sent the adolescent Hitler into a five year downward spiral of “misery

and woe” (Wistrich). During these five years, Hitler began to rethink his future; he started

thinking of politics. He specifically began his interest in politics when he started studying

Mayor Karl Lueger, a Christian Anti-Semitic. Hitler became fixated on the idea of Anti-

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Semitism. As the Jewish Virtual Library states his political origins, he observed the ways

of Lanz von Liebenfels and Georg von Schoenerer, instigating his fear of the “purity of

[German] blood” (Wistrich) becoming corrupted by the “Eternal Jew” (Wistrich). Hitler

left Vienna in 1913 to go to Munich to enlist in the armed forces. In 1914, war erupted in

Germany, so Hitler enlisted in the 16th Bavarian Infantry Regiment and served as a

dispatch runner (Wistrich). He received the Iron Cross1 for his bravery in battle.

However, he hadn’t escalated quickly enough to become a Lance Corporal. During his

career in the military, Hitler was “twice wounded” (Wistrich) and was “badly gassed four

weeks before the end of the war” (Wistrich). These wounds only drove his hatred more,

causing him to don the idea that he had an obligation to save the country from the

humiliation of the Treaty of Versailles.

He joined the German Workers’ Party, which consisted of about 40 members, and

soon changed the party’s name to the National Socialist German Workers’ Party. Not

only did he make all of these changes, he also elected himself to be the Chairman of the

party. Hitler soon realized that he was a gifted orator, and gave the party a new symbol

and greeting. He adapted the swastika2 to the party’s logo and introduced the greeting,

“Heil!”. In a matter of years, Hitler had increased the membership of the party from 40 to

3000 people, and was considered the “Fuhrer of the movement” (Wistrich). The party

was strictly anti-communist and eventually became anti-Semitic. When Hitler ran for

Chancellor in 1993, he was elected in a legitimate election. This was solely because the

people of Germany were scared of the Communist threat. The German people were afraid

that Communism would seep into Germany and essentially poison it. Germany elected

Adolf Hitler to the position of Chancellor because they thought that they could

1 The Iron Cross is a military honor given for extreme bravery in battle, as well as honor and courage. 2 The swastika was originally a symbol meant to evoke “shakti” or auspiciousness.

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manipulate Hitler, using him as a political puppet to prevent Communism. Throughout

the next couple of years, the Nazis started spreading their influence through the

government. In 1933, shortly after his election, Hitler started implanting Nazi

government officials in various places in the German government. In 1934, however,

President Hindenburg passed away at the age of 86, leading Hitler to assume power and

declare himself Fuhrer of Germany. Shortly after, Hitler forces the military to take an

oath of loyalty, essentially stating that they will do whatever it takes to defend Germany,

her people, and her leader, Adolf Hitler. Hitler named his territory the Third Reich, and,

in his book Mein Kampf, said “One blood demands one Reich.” (Hitler 1). Among other

events happening in 1933, Hitler outlawed all other political parties, saying that the Nazi

Party was the only necessary party. In 1934, Hitler moved troops into the Rhineland, a

demilitarized zone near the Rhine River in Germany (History). However, this action

violated the Treaty of Versailles, and Hitler felt nothing. After fully militarizing the

Rhineland, Hitler started the funding and arming the Luftwaffe, a new type of German

forces. Hitler started his anti-Semitic government actions by restricting Jews the right of

German citizenship (Tolischus 1). In February of 1938, Hitler fired 16 senior generals

from their positions in the military and assumed total control over the German people

(Wistrich). After this arrogant move, Hitler signed a non-aggression pact with Russia to

avoid a two-front war. This pact was a precursor to Germany’s invasion of Poland to start

World War II.

Hitler had his eyes set on Poland, which was previously granted its independence

by France and Britain (Wistrich). A year later, Hitler invaded Poland to expand his Nazi

empire. They overtook Poland using a new type of warfare: Blitzkrieg. They would

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quickly rush airfields with bombers, and follow this with raids and other small

skirmishes, almost always by surprise. The theory was adopted into German combat

tactics by Heinz Guderian. The “perfect plan” was a quick fighting tactic that was very

taxing, but very highly rewarding. If Blitzkrieg attacks were successful, they almost

always guaranteed a victory. These methods made Poland a jewel in the eyes of the

Fuhrer, and Poland was captured in a month. World War II had begun.

World War II, or WWII, started in 1939 when Nazi Germany invaded Poland, and

Britain announced that they were at war with Germany shortly after. In 1940, many other

countries surrendered to the mighty Nazi Germany, such as Belgium, Norway, and the

Netherlands (History Place). France and Germany fought for eight days before France

signed an armistice with Germany. Later that year, the French government broke

communications with Britain (History Place). With all of this that was happening, Nazi

Germany was always expanding. They would capture a country, move troops into it, and

look for any other countries that they thought they would be able to capture. The idea was

very imperialistic. Hitler had wanted to expand his Nazi empire as much as possible so

that he could safely rule an Aryan nation. After France broke communications with

Britain, Yugoslavia, Greece, and Syria fall to the Nazi regime. Throughout all of these

encounters, the Nazis fought a two front war: fighting in Eastern Europe and in Britain.

Britain, Germany’s biggest rival, was always at war against them throughout this entire

process. In 1941, Adolf Hitler claimed control over all of Germany’s armed forces. The

United States and Britain declare war on Japan, and Germany declares war on the United

States of America. Over the next three years, Germany began to crumble as they lost

control over many occupied countries and began to retreat (History Place). The Italians

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and Japanese fell, and eventually so did Germany. Adolf Hitler committed suicide on

April 30, 1945, ending Germany’s Nazi campaign. After Hitler’s death, the Nazi Party

crumbled and lost power rather quickly. The SS Commander Himmler committed

suicide, and so did many other people in positions of power in the Nazi Party.

The Final Solution was Hitler’s way to achieve a perfect world. Hitler’s anti-

Semitism began at a young age, and he used the Final Solution to his benefit whilst he

was in power. Hitler moved with this plan very monotonously, drawing it out over 12

years. Specifically, the Dachau Concentration camp opened the year of Hitler’s election

to Chancellor. However, when it was first made, it was specifically for political

opponents (Timetoast). Over the course of Hitler’s rise to power, he was constantly

restricting Jewish rights and privileges. For instance, in 1933, German doctors were

forced to sterilize any disabled person. But not only that, but they were forced to sterilize

Jews, Gypsies, and Afro-Germans. In 1935, signs that read “NO JEWS” were placed

outside of German towns, businesses, and restaurants, preventing Jews from entering.

Hitler continued this cycle of slowly removing Jews from society up until 1942, when

Hitler began killing the Jews. The Final Solution was first proposed at the Wannsee

Conference. This plan detailed Hitler’s scheme to mass murder Jews. The process

involved moving Jews from their homes to specific camps called concentration camps. It

is important to note that not all concentration camps were killing centers. There were

several killing centers in Poland: Auschwitz-Birkenau, Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, and

Treblinka. Jews were moved from other camps around Poland to these camps to be

murdered, most often using gas chambers disguised as shower rooms. In an interview

with SS Lt-Colonel Eichmann, Eichmann was asked “What did [Hitler] say about the

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topic?” Eichmann replied “murder and elimination and annihilation were discussed”

(Wannsee Conference). The first prisoners, moved in 1942, were a total of 10,000 Jews

on their way to Chelmno. Also, all Jewish schools in Germany were closed in 1942.

However, in 1943, Heinrich Himler ordered the liquidation of all ghettos in Poland and

the USSR. Liquidation of a ghetto meant that all inhabitants, whether Jewish or not, were

to be killed in cold blood. Ghettos were areas of housing before the Jews were moved to

concentration camps. They were very poor living conditions, and were very cramped and

small. Often times, families would share one house, up to four families in one house. The

average house in a ghetto was about the same size as an average classroom now. Some

examples of ghettos were Warsaw, Poland and Budapest, Hungary. In 1942, there was

one of the biggest uprisings in Holocaust history. The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising of 1942

took place right before the deportation of the ghetto. Orders were sent out on April 18,

1943 to deport all residents of the Warsaw ghetto the next day to the killing center

Treblinka to be liquidated. The Nazis specifically planned this date, because the day of

deportation was April 19, 1943, on the eve of Passover, one of the most sacred Jewish

holidays. The residents of the ghetto resisted, and this resistance led to the death of

300,000 Jews. The Jews resisted from July 22 to September 12, 1942, eventually

surrendering. A small resurgence group was formed, known as the Jewish Combat

Organization, or ZOB, to retaliate against the German forces. Later, another group was

formed, the Jewish Military Union, and the two banded together to brave the German

military. They were fully armed and had a total force of about 750 members. Almost all

of the resistance force members were killed over the course of three days. After the

resistance was over, to signify their victory, the Nazis destroyed the Great Synagogue on

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Tlomacki Street in Warsaw, the Jews’ most sacred and holy place of worship in Warsaw.

This was very significant because it showed the Nazis’ complete and total power over the

area, seeing as they destroyed the only place of refuge in such a densely Jewish populated

place.

Hitler took control of almost all of Eastern Europe during his rule, capturing

Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, France, Norway, the Netherlands, Luxembourg,

Belgium, and parts of the USSR. He invaded other countries, such as Lithuania,

Moldova, Britain, and Latvia. Britain fought back extremely defensively, and Germany

stood no chance against the British forces. In an edition of the Christian Science Monitor,

Hitler actually ordered that Europe be “cleared out of Europe before the end of the war”

(Hitler Orders Europe). When asked whether or not she knew of Hitler’s Final Solution,

Betty Blogier says, “We didn’t have radios, because they took away the radios. They

used to come into the house and [take] away the radios and took everything away, but

sometimes we knew. We knew before the Germans came, the Russians occupied my

country and we saw how they were treating the Russians too” (Blogier 28). Overall, the

Holocaust was a tragedy in history that will never be forgotten. This is why it is so very

important to continue to study it, to prevent history from repeating itself. Using

convergence of evidence, the Holocaust has been revealed in its truest state; a twisted

view on society led by a ruthless dictator who only wanted to bring pain to the world.

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Interview Transcription

Interviewee/Narrator: Henry Greenbaum Interviewer: Michael McMillen

Location: Mr. Greenbaum’s Home, Bethesda, MD Date: December 30, 2012

This interview was reviewed and edited by Michael McMillen

Michael McMillen: This is Michael McMillen and I am interviewing Henry Greenbaum

on the topic of the Holocaust as part of the American Century Oral History Project. This

interview took place on December 30, 2012 at Mr. Greenbaum’s House located in

Bethesda, Maryland. This interview was recorded using an iPad and a video camera.

Alright, Mr. Greenbaum, so we’re gonna start with the first question, what was it like

growing up in Poland during the 1930’s?

Henry Greenbaum: Well, as much as I remember at my age, I had a normal upbringing,

I went to public school, I went to religious school, I played a lot of games with other

children, Jewish, non-Jewish, mostly soccer we played, and all kinds of other games that

children play.

MM: OK, so you were very inclusive with your friend group. You weren’t specifically

attuned to Jewish or non-Jewish?

HG: Not at that time, yet. We got along pretty good with our neighbors.

MM: OK, what was a typical day like for you?

HG: A typical day like… like what you have I guess! Get up, go to school…

MM: OK.

HG: Then do your homework, and after the homework, you had to do some little chores

around the house, Mom might ask you to do something, but then after that we strictly

played with other children.

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MM: What were some of the average chores around the house? Just cleaning or cooking

or anything?

HG: No, no. We were in the tailor business and I kept the iron hot. That was my job. And

in those days, they didn’t have any hand pressing irons with electricity. They had a thing

with… that was hollow on the inside and you had to put, like you cook outside, what do

you call that?

MM: Charcoal?

HG: Charcoal! You had to charcoal and keep going, you know, moving it around and

moving it around, back and forth until it started. That was my job. That’s all I had to do.

MM: OK. Can you describe your school experience?

HG: School experience?

MM: Yes.

HG: Well as a… I didn’t have much schooling because I was only 11 and a half when it

all happened, not quite 12 years old. So I had… I don’t know what grade I was in 6th

grade maybe. That’s about it.

MM: OK, do you remember anything of your school experience before everything

started?

HG: I do remember they were not elaborate, like my grandchildren… I mean we went to

the school… each one had… I had my own little desk and we sat at a long table and at

both ends of the table and that’s how each one did their own work. We had a blackboard

and a teacher, teachers were very strict. If you didn’t behave, you had to split your hand

out and she whacked you (laughs) with a pencil holder that was made out of oak, and you

felt it, believe me.

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MM: What are some of your fondest memories growing up?

HG: To be with the family, mostly the family, we had a big family, I come from my own

family, nine children, we had six girls and three boys! So we were pretty busy. We had

first cousins, second cousins, and on the holidays, we all get together, and you know,

enjoy the holidays.

MM: So did you live with any extended family?

HG: I lived with my father and mom in our own house with my sisters, couple of ‘em

were married so they didn’t live with us, but they had little nieces and nephews I had.

MM: What was your family like? For example what did your father do for a living?

HG: We were tailoring. We had a tailor shop.

MM: OK, you said that your job was to keep the iron hot. Did your other siblings also

help around the business?

HG: Oh yeah! They cleaned, they helped clean around the house… In those days you

didn’t have washing machines, you had to have wash laundry by… by hand and

everything. That was a big job to do that with a lot of children you had a lot of laundry

to… to… to wash.

MM: Right. And was your family’s tailoring business big around the area, was it… did

you do it locally or did you do it from a business standpoint?

HG: We were not big, we were just a mom-and-pop store, the girls were helping with

ladies’ stuff, and the two boys, my older brothers were working with the men’s clothes

with my father.

MM: OK, so it was really gender oriented?

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HG: Well yes, it’s a small town, so everybody knew each other, customers would come

in and I would say 90% were not Jewish, mostly Catholic. They came, and we had

customers. We got along very fine with them, we had no problems. At that time!

MM: Right. So the area that you lived in was very diverse in religion? [5:17]

HG: We had mostly… mostly Jews and Catholics. I think we were like maybe 5, 6,000

people of Jewish faith in the city. It was a small town but we had a lot of industry. We

had mostly munitions factory, we had a stone quarry, we had a brick factory, tiles, we did

everything. We were involved, later on, most of the non-Jews would work in the factories

and do other things, but in our case we were tailors, we had a tailoring business.

MM: Right. OK, and what town was this?

HG: Strachowice. S-T-R-A-C-H-O-W-I-C-E. Strachowice.

MM: OK, can you describe Jewish life in Poland during this time?

HG: As far as I remember other towns had problems. We didn’t have any problems in

our town. We got along with our neighbors pretty good. We had a synagogue; at the

Sabbath we went for prayers or any holidays we observed. We never worked on the

Sabbath. Friday night before sundown everything had to be cleaned up and everything

had to be ready to go. And that’s where the holiday starts; Friday night.

MM: OK, and you said we didn’t have any problems with other towns, what were some

of the other problems that other towns had?

HG: Well other towns were more anti-Semitic, Progromes they used to have it. We had

the stories that we had heard. I didn’t observe it myself but I heard it as a story. All

before the Nazis came in now.

MM: OK.

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HG: I can only actually speak for my own town.

MM: Right, OK. When did you first hear about the outbreak of World War II?

HG: September of ’39.

MM: And how did you hear about it?

HG: Well through my parents! And what it was is we heard rumors from other city with

rumors when the Nazis occupied the city. And what they like and what they dislike. So

they suggested if you could get a job in a factory it might be better for you. Just to have a

tailor shop and working a business… they didn’t… there wasn’t… they weren’t so happy

about it. They were more happy if you had a job working in a factory. When they took

the factories over.

MM: Right, OK.

HG: We all had ID’s, and I had a job in a munition factory producing springs and my

three unmarried sisters were working in the factory too. Before the germans arrived. They

occupied our city.

MM: OK, and when did they occupy your city?

HG: September the 10th I believe it was, 1939.

MM: So shortly after you heard about the Nazis occupying other cities, your city became

occupied.

HG: The what?

MM: Soon after you heard about the Germans occupying other cities…

HG: Yes. What we should look out for, this and that. And what they did in the other

cities, of course we already knew about it, they went in an occupation. They would put us

on the yellow star of David (points to chest) in front and back we had to wear that.

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MM: Right. How did the start of the war initially impact your family?

HG: It impacted my family because it sort of broke my family up; I had one brother in

the Polish Army who was drafted before the war, so he was still in the outposts. Then I

had the oldest of my brothers, what we did is we… well my father passed away two or

three months before the war. My mom was very protective. So we were living in my little

house, which was not far from the railroad station. And she was worrying that they are

gonna bomb the station and we might get hurt. And she suggested we take our horse and

buggy and our neighbor drove us to a farm. Now we knew the farmer; we did business

with him; tailoring business with him. He put us up for three days over there in the farm

about 10 miles away. Then while we were there, not the married sisters, my 3 single

sisters and I was there with the oldest of the brothers and my mom. And then the farmer

put us up and then we all wanted to eat something because in September they still had

some tomatoes on the vine outside the farm. We went and grabbed that tomato and a

piece of bread from the farmer and we were eating our breakfast, my brother and I. He

was much older than I am. And then we saw a Polish soldier, distorted, pulling a broken

bicycle, and running past, and my brother stopped him, he knew his name; his first name.

How he knew it I don’t know that. But he might have been one of my customers at one

time. So he says “where are you running from?”. He says “the germans are coming this

way. They are three kilometers here and coming this way.” And the Polish soldier didn’t

want to get caught by the German soldiers so he was running the opposite direction. Well

my brother decided to ask him a question. He said “is it ok if I run away with you?”. He

said “be my guest!”. And I could not believe it at my age, 11 and a half years old, that my

oldest brother, my protector, I just lost my father… and now I felt that he was my…

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figure of… why would you leave me alone? And he said “go back to your mother, go

back to your mother.” He wouldn’t let me run with him. I was hiding behind bushes for a

couple of miles. I was chasing after him hiding, and they kept saying “go back! Go back

to your mother!” and I didn’t want to listen ‘til the soldier turn around he yelled out real

loud, there were a lot of medals on the soldier, so I was afraid of him actually, I said OK

and ran back to my mom at the farmers house. Three days later, we went back to the…

three days after that we went to house. And back to normal. By that time, they had

already occupied our city. The Nazi Germans were already there, they had occupied our

city, and it didn’t take them too long, maybe two or three weeks they put us on the yellow

star of David. Right away. Most; I would say most, quite a few of us, Jewish families

lived in a Jewish neighborhood. Mostly Jews. And so right away what they did, they

knew where to find us because we were in that area if they need you to do something; to

dig trenches on the outskirts of the town, anything. That kind of work. Wash their cars,

vehicles or whatever they wanted. They knew where to find you. So that was hard. But

then they… the other people also lived on the outskirts of the town; not everyone lived in

a neighborhood. In fact my two married sisters didn’t live with us in the neighborhood.

She lived in the outskirts of the town. So what they did they went around to the city

police, the Nazis, they asked “where do the other Jews live? Are these all the Jewish

people you have here?” “No” they said. “There’s a lot of ‘em scattered all over.”. and

they took them to each of the Jewish homes and they had to scream “Raus, Raus!” You

know, means Fast Fast, grabbed what you can, and put you in a truck. You couldn’t take

very much with you, you didn’t know where you were going anyway. You thought you

were gonna return home, you don’t know that, but they took you over to where the

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Jewish neighborhood was. And once everyone was in that area it was overcrowded, very

overcrowded. We were short in food after that, we ran out of food, but anyway what they

did with us, is they circled us around a three block perimeter with barb wire not a fence,

just 5 foot barb wire all the way around. And they had an opening, and at the opening the

gate were Nazi soldiers. One was a Ukrainian who joined the Nazi regime, and the other

was an SS man. And they were standing there to be our guards, at the doors. And you

could not go out of that ghetto area, it was a ghetto to me, the only way you could come

out of there was we had an ID that showed you worked at the factory. That’s where it

became helpful. Right there; if you were able to go to work at the factory and back. And

we did that for almost two years we did that, we stayed in there in that ghetto area. And

one day they decided there was too much, too many mouths to feed. Everybody there,

they didn’t want to feed everybody. So they decided they wouldn’t let anyone go to work;

we had three shifts. From seven to three, from three to 11, from 11 to seven in the

morning to go to the factories. We worked there and they wouldn’t let the night shift go

to work, and then when the night shift came back in the morning to line up they took

them all out of the ghetto area; everybody was in their one spot and they ordered us out

into an open field. There was no houses around, a few benches out there, desks rather,

tables, benches… whatever they’re called. Four or five guys standing there, in their

uniforms, and in two minutes your family was broken up. You go this way (points to

right) you go that way (points to left) this way, that way, this way, that way. On one side,

they took my mom, and my two married sisters, because they had children with them.

The children were under the age of seven, eight. So it’s normal, they have to go with their

moms. So they took those three nieces, and the other sister had two boys, my two

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nephews, and they took them over to go with grandma, all them; I never saw them again.

They took them to a place, we found out after the war, Treblinka, nothing but a killing

cent… (tries to find the word) center. And that’s where my mom and my two married

sisters and nieces and nephews lost their life. And then, they also took handicapped, to

the same side, pregnant women to the same side, women who just gave child birth, and

the little tiny tots they had, all went to the same side. Anybody that was left over, they

didn’t take away from us, was people who had worked in the factories, that had ID’s, and

then if you were healthy enough, and you were not attached to any children, they saved

you for work. And you had to be at least 11 or 12, under that, unless you were big, a big

boy at 10 you could get away with it.

MM: Right.

HG: But otherwise, no. You had to go with your parents. And then they turned around to

us and they chased us for six kilometers uphill, and past the ghetto area, we couldn’t

understand that, why couldn’t they let us go back in there? No, they had other ideas for

us. They set up a slave labor camp with double fences, six foot fences on the top of the

stone quarry. With the towers, and the SS and Ukrainian guards and the men with the

dogs, we had to run for six kilometers there, and there the loudspeaker came on “attention

attention: you must empty all your pockets, you can’t go through the gate other than

yourself and your clothes, otherwise you will be killed. So bracelets, I didn’t have

anything. My sisters had some, little necklaces, whether they were real, I don’t know

what it is. Bracelets, watches, you had to take everything off and give it up. Then we

walked into the slave labor camp, and we were assigned to barracks. That’s the first time

we saw barrack, what it means. Nothing but a wooden shack with shelves; the bunks.

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MM: So you weren’t able to smuggle anything into the slave labor camp?

HG: No, no. If you wanted to risk your life, maybe. I don’t know if somebody did. They

risked their lives; they said they would kill you, so I think mostly the people obeyed.

They gave you a small little blanket rolled up, and they assigned you to a barracks. So

many to a barrack, women separate from men, and we would go in the barracks. We were

in the ghetto for two years, we stayed from ’40 to ’42, October of ’42, we stayed in the

ghetto. And then after that we had one more year we worked in the munition factory.

MM: OK. [18:44]

HG: And by that time the Germans owned it already. Herman Guerrie Worker. That was

the name of the factory we worked in.

MM: OK. So… can you describe daily life in the slave labor camp?

HG: In the slave labor camp… they woke you up early, 3 shifts like I said before, they

had your little piece of bread, a little black imitation coffee, and then you had to line up

for work. And they counted to see how many they had to have. Then they marched you

out and you went to the factory working. And then we worked for 10 hours. Then you

came back in the evening, after the 10 hours were up, you came back to the barrack and

they gave you cabbage soup. Nothing but cabbage water would have been the proper

name. There was no soup, no real cabbage to be found. Just plain water.

MM: OK, and you said you worked in a factory in the camp?

HG: A munition factory. I did mostly springs. Then I was transferred over to step out

the… a mold you get out from a hot oven that pours in melted metal and it goes in and it

makes a fold. They were anti-aircraft shells. And it took two people to grab it with tongs;

you couldn’t do it with your hands, they’re red hot! You had to grab ‘em with tongs. One

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on this end (points to left) and one on that end (points to right). You take ‘em out of the

mold, and put ‘em down on the sand. On very soft sand. And you had to be very careful

not to drop it. We did twice and we got beat up for it. That was our job; we stayed there

for a whole year almost in that slave labor camp and working the factories.

MM: OK, can you describe your escape attempt?

HG: My escape attempt… Well, there was a… one of my sisters became a seamstress.

They asked for volunteer seamstresses. So she became a seamstress. ‘Bout 50 tailors all

working together. We were there almost one year, there almost one year in that slave

labor camp. The high ranking officer came in. That’s the only thing they did for a high

ranking officer, not the private soldiers. So they came into the tailor shop one guy and

told them you have to hurry up with all this uniforms because all of you gonna be

deported from here by such and such date. You must have everything ready. All of these

tailors… it was like a shock to them. They knew they were helping them with war

machinery, you help them with uniforms and all that, all of the sudden where are you

gonna deport us? They’re probably gonna get rid of us; they’re probably gonna kill us. So

some of the people… there’s no way an entire camp can disappear, or plan an escape. It’s

impossible. Hundreds of people in there; I don’t know how many were there… quite a

few. But only… only the tailors organized an escape. If you were a brother, or a sister, or

an uncle, cousin, or good friend, you were told about the escape, and they organized it.

They organized it so they even got the freedom fighters… the terrorists who were

fighting against the Germans. They were supposed to come and help the people who were

escaping to eliminate the two guards on the towers and their dogs. And the fence was

double fence, six foot, not electric, just plain double fence, and it happened, one day… I

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didn’t know about the escape ‘til one day before. My shift was from three to 11, my

sister, I already only had the one sister left, the other two… one of them I’ll go back to it.

What happened is while we were in that camp, slave labor camp, very dirty… filthy…

there was no way to wash, we didn’t take any showers for years. No haircuts were given.

We all got lice infested. Lice… lice breeds typhoid. The typhoid epidemic broke out in

that camp before the escape was going on. And what happened is high fever, you cannot

go to work. And if they caught you, you didn’t line up for work, they knew how much

were supposed to line up for work, each barrack. They went inside looking for you. Some

people already had the typhoid, they couldn’t even stand on their feet. In the beginning,

they would shoot ‘em right in the barrack because they didn’t line up for work. Maybe

two, three, four, I don’t know how many they did. But later on, what they did instead of

shooting 'em in there, they pick them up in a pickup truck. They went from barrack to

barrack for who didn’t line up for work. And they took all the sick people to the outskirts

of the town, and there the trenches were already dug by us. Once they gave us the yellow

star of David, they put us to work and we were digging trenches on the outskirts of the

town. But they didn’t tell us they were gonna shoot people in there. They told us it’s

gonna be tanks to fall in. The war was still going on, they were the exact shape. Six feet,

four feet, I don’t remember how deep it was. But they took these people who came down

with typhoid to the outskirts of the town. They had to undress naked and the farmer

would get their clothes and they had to pile it up nice and neatly. And the farmer would

get the clothes and they would get a bullet in the back of the head and into the ditch they

went. I lost a sister that way and one sister died of typhoid while she was there, so I only

had one, the seamstress. And she’s the one who was involved in the escape.

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MM: And what was her name? [24:53]

HG: Faige. Faye in English. And she didn’t tell me about the escape ‘til the night before,

just when I came home from work. My shift was from three to 11, and she told me “do

not go into the barrack, wait for me outside.” She said it’s gonna be pitch dark, and I’ll

come and get you. Well, a few minutes after 11, she came by with a Jewish policeman,

who we had in our care, she was holding his hand, and she grabbed my hand and all three

were running. It was about 10 feet; some people had already gotten out. I was about 10

feet from where the hole was cut out. The lights came on. And all the dogs kept barking,

the German Sheppard. Growling, barking… he took the floodlights, put the floodlights

on, and he kept roaming around with the floodlights. The reason the floodlights went off

is we thought that the Freedom Fighters did help us trying to escape, and they knocked

out the lights, and also their guards. But we found out different; there was an air raid in

the area, so the lights came on, I mean off… and the guards were standing where they

were on the towers. And then after they heard the noise the dogs were barking and they

knew something was going on so they put the floodlights on. And they ran the floodlights

back and forth, and then they found the spot where the hole was cut through and they

started shooting. I was 10 feet away with my sister and the policeman, and a bullet struck

the back of my head and knocked me out. And then when I woke up a few seconds later,

I felt blood is running, I kept feeling my head, I didn’t have a hole in there, but I had a

cut. A bullet grazed me. So it’s just like a knife would cut you, three inches. Then I yelled

out, I love my sister, “Faige!” screamed loud and she was like my mom to me in the end.

That’s the only thing I had left. And then I could not find her. So I said she would not run

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away with leaving me, unless she thought I was dead, maybe. So when I dropped, she

was running with the policeman. Well anyway I never thought of her running out. I was

more concentrated on her running back to the women’s barrack. She saw something that

is shooting, she ran back to the barrack and the policeman ran back to his barrack, where

he belonged. So I came there and the woman would not let me into the women’s barrack.

“You can’t get in here, you’re gonna get it all… you’re gonna get us all killed! You’re

full of blood! You gotta leave!” I was 15 by that time already so I sat in the doorway and

I didn’t want to leave. I was evidently stronger than she was. I said until I find my sister

I’m not going nowhere. And I kept yelling inside the all women barrack, and all of the

sudden, I knew her, the woman who ran the barrack who knew me from my home, I

knew who she was and she knew who I was, but yet she didn’t let me come in. And I

knew she heard the shooting going on outside she had to hear it, in that wooden shack,

she had to hear it. She didn’t believe that there was shooting. I said if I run over there

he’s gonna kill me! I gotta stay here, I can’t go nowhere. I sat down in the doorway and I

didn’t wanna move until three or four bullets came into the women’s barrack. BANG!

BANG! BANG! All the women jumped up off of their shelves, their bunks, and went on

the ground, went on the same level where I was sitting, and then I was still yelling out for

my sister, Faige! Faige! Faige! No answer. A first cousin answered. Her name was Ida.

She answered. She says what happened to you? I said I was trying to escape with Faige

and a policeman and I can’t find either one of them. But then I was wounded. Well where

were you wounded? She looked in back and started cleaning me up. She had a bucket of

water in there and some rags and she cleaned me up and she took a dry rag and put it on

top of my head and she gave me her beret that she was wearing, said put your beret on

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there, let that rag stay underneath. And by that time the woman didn’t bother me

anymore. But then I figured out if they do catch me there, they will kill me, because I was

already wounded and I was in the wrong place, the women barrack, not belonging in

there, said they were gonna kill me. So I had to find another way to get back out of there.

I was watching, it was not quite daylight yet, and I was watching which way the

floodlights were going away from me. And I could run pretty good yet, at 15 I was

running pretty good even though I lost a lot of blood, I can still run. And I made it back;

they never saw me ‘cause I dashed out of the women’s barrack and ran with my head

lower down and I wanted to go to where I belong in the men’s barrack, not outside. Had I

gone outside for that hole, they would have probably picked me off in a second. So I

made it back into my barrack, where I belong. I said thank God, now I’m safe. Well two

hours later the loudspeaker came up. “You have to all go out.” Everybody went outside,

they wanted to count to see how many escaped, the night shift just came back from the

night shift; they were not involved in the escape.

MM: Right.

HG: Because they were coming back in the morning, 7. They came back and they held

them between the two sets of wires. They were not electric, just barb wire. They held 'em

in there till they counted us. And while they were counting us, they told us with loud

angry voices “turn this way!” So we turned this way and there we saw the hole that was

cut out there. And I looked there; the policeman was sitting in upright position, still alive,

right next to him, Faige, my sister, laying on the ground stretched out. She was dead

already. And that was, for me, the end of the world. That’s it. Now I have nobody. And

I’m 15 years old; I lost everybody as far as I knew. You know, I didn’t know where they

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took my mother and sisters. I thought they’d just relocated them, we didn’t know they

were killing them! At that time, we weren’t aware of the killing yet. Hanging, shooting,

yes. The cremating, the gas chambers, we were not aware, at least I was not. Then, we

went back in there I was very disappointed about what I saw… about life… after that, it

went back to normal. Oh, no, no… not that. I saw them, where the hole was cut out, he

took his pistol out, and he shot every one of them who was wounded around the area. My

sister and the policeman were on the other side of the fence. They sort of died with

freedom. They almost got out; whether my sister got hit by the same bullet I did, I don’t

know. Maybe they hit her and she was able to run to the other side and then just dropped

over there… I can’t figure that out, what happened over there. And then we went back to

normal! We went back to work, and about a month later the rumors were true what the

high ranking officer told the tailors. We gonna be deported outta there. It was already

1944.

MM: OK. [32:16]

HG: It was already 1944 and they didn’t let the night shift go to work, everybody was in

the camp at that time. We were moving, and the railcars were coming toward us, we

could see them coming on the rail yard; the cattle cars, the freight cars… And they

stuffed us in like sardines. Stuffed us in there, packed us in, enough of us, no water, no

bathroom for three days, we were travelling. Each station we stopped, we were screaming

in unison. The train, like I said, wasn’t a nonstop, station after station. We were

screaming loud and clear in different languages in unison “Water! Water!” We didn’t ask

for food, just for water. They wouldn’t give us anything. We finally, after the third day,

arrived at our destination and that was Auschwitz-Birkenau. And then the wagons opened

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up, the doors opened up, the German SS guys were standing in their uniforms, they

opened the doors, and directing traffic as you came off the train. You had to jump off real

fast; if you didn’t get off, they were standing there with a whip and they would whip the

hell out of you when it took you too long to get off the train. We were entangled between

each other. We had three dead people that didn’t leave the car. We don’t know how long

they were dead, but the stench was to high heaven. You could hardly breathe in that car.

Then half of our transport was picked, because again they went left, right, left, right.

They took half of our transport, we found out the next day. They took them straight to

crematorium. With us, I was lucky again, I was already wounded, they didn’t see it, full

of hair… And the beret is still on my head. We wore civilian clothes; whatever I had at

home I was still wearing at that time. And then half of my transport they put 'em to the

gas chambers as we found out the next day. We were the lucky ones again on the good

side. They gave us a tattoo on the left arm (points to left arm). My number was A18991.

That was our first stop. Next stop was a barber, who would stand with hair clippers and

gave me a haircut. And he asked me what the wound was on the back of my head. But he

was Jewish so I wasn’t afraid of him at all, he was a prisoner too. But he needed to clip

your haircut.

MM: Right. [34:42]

HG: There was a line of people lining up to get haircuts, so he couldn’t talk too much to

you. No, no, I said. You know, I’m Jewish, you’re Jewish, I said I’d tried to escape, my

sister was killed, a policeman was killed, I was wounded. He didn’t say another word to

me. Out of the way, next one, next one. And then we lined up going into a maze, going

into a shower room. We didn’t know where they were taking us, but once we were in

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there, we were not aware of their tricks, when they pushed you into the shower room and

instead of water you get gas. But we were not aware of that yet. We knew something was

wrong there, it was different, electric fences were different, everything; we smelled flesh

burning, we saw little particles flying in the air, we didn’t know what it was and it was

September, you didn’t get no snow yet… You know, we learned that as we were there.

And then this third stop was a shower, finally. We cleaned ourselves up real good, we

were… we didn’t have no lice no more because we were lice infested, and then the

haircut. And they gave us soap. The first thing we wanted was to drink water, water!

Never mind washing! As soon as we got enough water in ourselves, then we started

cleaning ourselves off. And they furnished us; they took away our old clothes which were

full of lice, thank God. And they gave us clean, striped uniforms. A cap, a jacket, pants,

and wooden shoes with canvas tops. That was our outfit. And a small little blanket. They

marched into another barrack, the barrack was the same. There was no difference with the

barrack like the barrack we had left. Just shelves, no mattress, no straw. Just wood. We

would sleep in our clothes anyway. We just took our shoes off to go to sleep and socks,

and still this time they took the socks away. And we slept together, three guys in one

bunk. They stayed with me, I was lucky, only four months I think. And a savior came in.

A German, well dressed German, civilian clothes, well dressed man, came in looking for

free labor, we found out later. We didn’t know what he was doing there. He came in and

ordered our barrack outside. And he looked you over, again selection. Selection every

day. Left… no he didn’t say left. He liked you, you come over here. If he skipped, next

one over here. He skipped the next one, I don’t know what the reason was. We all looked

alike, weight wise, one was not heavier than the other. But we were not skeletons yet.

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And the man, after he took us out, I don’t know how many he took out, maybe 75 or 50

of us, I don’t remember that. He took us out and marched us out of Auschwitz-Birkenau.

He took us to a nearby camp called B-U-N-A. Buna Monowitz. It’s a subcamp of

Auschwitz. See, Auschwitz consisted of three, you had Auschwitz One, Birkenau was

Two, and Buna Monowitz was Three. And there, the man that took us over there, he was

either a manager or an owner of a chemical company called I.G. Farben. Have you ever

heard of that name?

MM: No.

HG: Well it’s I, then a G, then it spells out the word Farben. F-A-R-B-E-N.

MM: OK.

HG: This chemical company is still in business. They were the producers of the cyclone

gas, they were producing bug sprays, they were producing synthetic fuel, automobile

tires, bullets, and a lot of things in there. A whole factory was in there. I.G. Farben,

they’re still in business. You can look 'em up probably on the computer. And then, we

started working there. Now the man that picked us from Auschwitz-Birkenau worked in

the I.G. Farben to make a road, to build a road in the compound of the factory. Because

the factory was on a dirt road, and he wanted us to put cobblestones for the sidewalk, that

was our job. It was already the end of ’44, and by that time I think there was… the Allies,

well I shouldn’t say the Allies. The American Air Force started paying us a visit again,

and they bombed the rail leading into the I.G. Factory. They couldn’t receive any

chemicals. Then they eventually get more aggressive, the Air Force came, and they

started bombing on the inside. Now why the bombing started we… the three bunkmates,

my two bunkmates and I were working together, and while we were there, every time the

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air raids would come, we found out, they had a bunker in there. But it was not for the

Jewish people. Only for the guards and the non-Jews that worked in the factory. And they

were all packed in, every time an air raid came, they ran for the bunkers, including the

soldiers, everybody. So one of our bunkmates decided to go look for food. And three

times, he did it. Three consecutive times he did it. And we kept warning him, they’re

gonna get you, don’t do it. But we appreciated when he brought us back food. What kind

of food did he bring us back? Whatever they threw outside. Not food… he never made it

into the kitchen. Only whatever they threw out for garbage. And when you’re hungry

there’s no such thing as garbage. You will eat anything, trust me. If it doesn’t smell good,

there’s mildew, whatever, you’ll eat it. And finally, like we predicted, he got caught. And

they hung him in Buno-Monowitz’s subcamp. On the Sunday. They hung four people, I

don’t know what the others were charged with. But I know my bunkmate committed just

bringing us over the garbage, whatever they threw away anyway. But they killed him.

And after that, they started to be more aggressive, they bombed the area, put 'em out of

commission. We were put again on the trains. We were heading to another camp called

Flussenburg, near the Czech border; Czecho-Slovakia; six kilometers from the Czech

border. We went there, and then we had two miles left to walk because the rail system

was knocked out. We were bombarded on the way in there. We made it finally in there

with the walk-in two miles. We walk in and it’s just like another camp. Same barrack, the

same food, the same thing. The only thing there, was that our job was different. The

people that came before us in Flussenburg had jobs in the airplane factory called Messer-

Schmidt. And they had the BMW’s were produced there, they had jobs in there; when we

came, the latecomers, all our job was a heap of clothes piled up like a story high of

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people who had been murdered. We had to bundle up the clothes; coats to coats, pants to

pants, shoes, and they sent them over to Germany for recycling. And that was our only

job there like that. Also, if the Air Force, the United States Air Force, would knock out a

building where the German army was, we had to come in the middle of the night,

whenever it was, OK if you just got home from work; we had to go there and clean it up.

It was just another job. Then they put us to the… the bombs that didn’t explode, I

remember, only one time I remember that. They were big huge bombs, like you couldn’t

put the arm around there, a thousand pounder. And they did not explode, they landed in

the ground, and our job was to dig in all around it. All around it, and then the bomb

stayed on the dirt part but all there was all dug out. The reason we dug it out, I don’t

know that. To defuse it, I guess, they had to get to it. The only way they could defuse it

was they had to dig all the way around it to get to the stuff they had to defuse it with; that

was our job. And we stayed in there, and it was already almost the end of ’45. Almost.

Before February, January, February, March, it was still ’45. They… (stumbles to find

words) I lost myself a bit there… I was doin’ alright for a while (laughs). There was a…

before winters started, they ordered us… we stayed in a… what do you call it…

deportation I guess. What the reason is is there were artillery people with guns pounding

away night and day, night and day, we knew somebody was coming, but we knew the

war was still going on. We thought it was still Germans, we didn’t know who they were.

But the man in charge of the barrack gave himself away, he was a cobble, a German

cobble. He gave us all away, he said “Don’t be so happy!” We were a little happy

because we thought somebody’s coming to get us. He said “Don’t be so happy. Before

the Russians get here, we’re gonna kill all of you here.” Well, it was not the Russians

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coming, the Americans had liberated Flussenburg. By that time, we were not in there

anymore, we were put on trains again. We went through Austria, Czecho-Slovakia,

Bavaria, Germany, riding around in a train. They bombarded the hell out of us all the way

through. At the end, February, March, and April of 1945, they put us on foot, marching

for three months, from March. The march took its toll on us because we didn’t get that

little piece of bread, you didn’t get that black imitation coffee, you didn’t even get that

little bit of soup. All we had to eat was to eat leaves off the bushes, as we were marching

grab a leaf and chew it, and the only way we got a raw potato is the two guards and their

dogs were hungry, they seem to locate a farm real fast for their own benefit. They came

in and demanded to see the owner of the farm and had themselves a good meal. But the

order was to the farmer to give us one raw potato per person and some water. And then

we had to eat until they ate up and march again. Well it took almost to the Ninth of April,

we marched February, March, and April. April, we were soaking wet, from the showers

and we came on the 24th, and all the sudden we went in the evening. We always marched

in the evening. This was almost evening. They found a farm, but they knew something

was going on, they’re army people, they have to know something. They marched us into

the farm, and all of the sudden they direct us into the silo where they keep the hay; for us

to go in there. And in three months it never happened before, why all the sudden we get

moved into the silo? We have a roof over our head, we were happy. But then we thought

they were gonna put it on fire, they were gonna kill us. But they didn’t. We took our

clothes off laid 'em out on the hay so they can dry, and they gave us a raw potato going

in, early on the morning of the 25th, they woke us up early, and they gave us another

potato, which never happened again. We knew something was wrong, but what was

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wrong we didn’t know. No flying planes we saw yet, artillery pieces on the highway yes,

but still didn’t know who this army was. And they only marched us that morning and

they gave us that raw potato that morning means two. That had never happened before.

Only marched for two hours. Put us in a wooded area. Mostly outside; we could see not

too deep into the forest, we could see the highway or which road we were on. We saw

artillery pieces and all kinds of Jeeps, whatever. Artillery, guns, whatever it was the army

has. We didn’t know that was Americans. We thought they were Germans because we

didn’t know the marking. And why all the sudden we see, by that time we knew it was a

problem, but we didn’t was it Russian or American. But then what happened the two

guards and the two dogs, they took off, quietly, while we were still sleeping. In the

morning, they took off, and they disappeared in thin air. And we were afraid they were

hiding behind the trees, if they get up to run, they’ll pick us off in a second. Well, we all

stood still. All the sudden, we saw a tank come from the main highway, towards us. Not

too far away from us, very close to us. And we kept saying, the Germans are gonna kill

us, they sure are. Now we all gonna die. The guards are not here, we’re not protected by

nobody. Now we gonna get killed. All of the sudden, this beautiful tank hatch opens up,

and there was an American; I still get goose bumps about that day, the best day of my

life. When that soldier, blonde hair, crew cut, America written here (points to chest) on

their uniforms, he yelled out “You’re free! We’re all Americans and you are free.” After

being locked up for five years, when you hear the word free… You see we take too much

for granted here, what freedom is. But there, that was different; a different ball game. I

said “Thank God! We’re free!” I begged God every day, help me, help me… I have a

sister in America, which I didn’t tell you. We had six girls at home and three boys. But

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one of my sisters immigrated to the United States in 1937. So I knew I had a sister in

America. So I prayed to God every day; I said “Dear God, please help me so I can see my

sister in America! Save me another day!” Day by day, but that day I said “Thank you

God for helping but why did it take you so long?!” It took too long, five years! I had a

legitimate complaint to God. And by that time we were freed, and I was 17 years old, and

I weighed 75 pounds at liberation. Nothing but skins and bones.

MM: A couple more questions; Can you… What were some of the differences between

the camps that you were in? Like the slave labor camp, you mentioned Auschwitz-

Birkenau…

HG: Well, with me, I didn’t find it any different except I was more scared at Auschwitz-

Birkenau and Flussenburg because the fences were electric fences. Had those little

deadheads on there… you couldn’t get too close with the magnet or the electricity would

pull you onto the… onto the fence if you cross over a certain area. Maybe it was just to

be scared, I don’t know the reason they did it. Then you’d smell the stench constantly

there which we didn’t have it before. We knew there was something going on, and also

the night before… before we spent only one night in Auschwitz-Birkenau. Screams to

high heaven coming from other barracks. There was Gypsy night, there was a barrack full

of gypsy people, they didn’t like them either. And they were trying to get 'em on to a

pickup truck, to take 'em to the gas chamber. They put up a fight; they didn’t want to

leave the barrack. So the screams… we were too scared to see what was going on, we just

arrived there. We thought we were gonna be next. We didn’t know. And the next

morning it was nice and quiet and we didn’t hear anything. So the people that were there

before us, been there a little while, because it was gypsy night. All those gypsies were in

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high heaven already. They gassed 'em to death. That’s the only difference there was in

the camps for me.

MM: OK.

HG: The food was the same situation.

MM: How do you think you were able to survive the Holocaust? You mentioned that you

were lucky a lot of the time.

HG: I had a will to live. I had a will to live that some day I will be in America. That kept

my morale up a little bit. I was hungry a lot. Every day you start thinking about the meals

that you had on the holidays but that made you more hungry, we kept talking about it on

the death march. While we were marching, if you fall down in front of us, we couldn’t

pick you up. No way. We had to leave you, sorry as it was. We had to leave you behind

and we heard shots going off. The next group of marchers came by had to bury the

people. One group or the other helped out each other. And I kept praying to God every

day, every day… whatever little I remember about praying. At my age I didn’t know too

much about the Bible, at my age, but I was praying “save me, save me, save me!” And I

believed in God, and my faith is intact, I did not give that up.

MM: OK.

HG: And that sustained me and kept me alive.

MM: So you said that the Americans came and liberated you. Where did you say that

was?

HG: Near Bavaria, Germany. Nurembourg Fanvalt. I got a printout here, I’ll give you

that story. All of this story I tell you, it’s all on print. I’ll give you one.

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MM: And did you happen to talk or meet with any of your liberators?

HG: Yes! They kept me alive, they wanted me to live! I said I had a sister in America,

and they kept saying “Where? Where?” They tried to help you. But all I knew was she

was in America. How could you find her? She might have been married already, so I

didn’t know her married name. Then eventually, after you got enough food in you, we

warmed up after that. At the farm where we were liberated, I did not tell you that. When

the soldier, after he dumped out all the… whatever they had… food, they saw we were

gonna kill each other over it. So either sign language or somebody spoke English he told

us to line up behind the tank. Not on the side, but behind. He took us across the road, into

a farm. A farm house. One soldier opened the door, and the next soldier was wanting us

to go in. So we did not want to go in, because we were so hungry. Outside of the farmer’s

house, three big pails of potato peelings with white flour on it. And when you’re hungry,

you’re looking at a dinner right there. And we got on our hands and knees and cleaned off

everything, the peelings, you didn’t even have to wash the trays anymore. That’s how we

cleaned it up. And then we went in, and we could not believe it. Why did we eat this here

peeling? They had a table full of normal food! Food that I didn’t even see in Europe!

Fruit, vegetables, and bread, and cakes, and everything was on there. People that were in

there were liberated the night before. And they were all sick as dogs. Because either

we’re eating normal food or their stomach couldn’t… maybe they overate, I don’t know

the answer. But my two angels, which I named them, I didn’t know their names, the two

guys that liberated us on the tank, they called in for reinforcements. They called in the

medics to come. The medics took two hours, they came, and handed out medication to all

of them. They told us not to eat but drink plenty, that’s what we did. I showed the wound

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on the back of my head to one of the medic guys. He gave me a sign like that (thumbs up)

he knew what it was I guess, and he shaved the area around here, he put medication, he

put a bandage on there, I was between a human being’s hands. Not these killers, these

killers would have seen that. I wouldn’t be here talking to you.

MM: OK, did you create any friendships with the liberators? You called them your two

angels. Could you describe that?

HG: Well they were friendly, yes, they were trying to help you. But then I wound up

getting a job in an Army base, an American Army base. Three Jews, he took, and they

took three Belarus guys. I don’t know how they got them, that I don’t know. We helped

out in the kitchen. We did not have to peel any potatoes. We did not have to wash our

dishes. The only ones that were doing that were the German… guys that they caught.

Germans… POW’s they call them?

MM: Yeah.

HG: Yeah, they did the wash the floors, they washed the dishes, the peeled potatoes, and

all we had to do was show our hands to the mess sergeant because we didn’t have gloves

to make sure our hands were clean. All we did was hand out the food to the soldiers. And

they kept us on the base, there with them. It was just one building. In fact, they gave me a

uniform to wear, no insignias, no guns, no nothing, just like one of their guys. We felt

safe to sleep in there. Wherever they slept.

MM: I read that the word “Holocaust” comes from the Greek words that mean “whole”

and “burn”. This actually links to a sacrifice burning an entire animal. What’s your

reaction to the link between this creation of…

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HG: I really don’t understand that whole thing. All I knew is the big scholars that we

have in the Holocaust, someone like Elie Wiesel, there was another one, big lawyer, and

he could not come up with a name for the Holocaust, and they eventually came up with a

name but I didn’t know it comes from the Bible, I did not know that.

MM: Yeah.

HG: I didn’t know that. But they had a rough time naming it the Holocaust. A

catastrophe. In Hebrew, I think it was Horban. H-O-R-B-A-N I think. They could not

come up with it. And they eventually called it the Holocaust.

MM: OK, why do you personally think that it’s important to retell the story of the

Holocaust?

HG: So we can probably, maybe prevent it from happening again. From talking, I am a

volunteer at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. I go there every Friday for

the last 20 years, ever since it’s built, ’93, I think it was built. And I talk to various

groups; high school, middle school, the Army personnel comes, I travel and go to them if

they can’t come to the museum. We tell our story, and it hurts over and over, but in the

museum from 10 to four, you have to tell your story. How many times do you have to

rehash it? But kids will be kids. They go through the museum, you think they’ll come

down and have them there strictly just to answer questions. And all the kids say “How

was it?” You can’t just rehash it over and over, but we do it, as much as we can. And it

does hurt. But we have to, because we promised one another, each other, one another that

if you survive, make sure that you tell what they did to us. And we did; we do keep our

promise, and that’s mostly because of that. And maybe it’ll prevent it from happening

again.

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MM: What do you personally want… Say that I was writing a paper on the Holocaust 30

years from now. What would you want me specifically to detail?

HG: How they mistreated the Jews. Why did they pick on the Jews? We didn’t do

anything to them.

MM: OK.

HG: We were merely the scapegoats. If the Germans lost World War One, the Jews

caused it. If they didn’t have enough food, the Jews caused it. Eventually… What’s the

word… I can’t think of the right word. The people start to believe it happened. You tell

'em this and this and everybody hated us. I remember even on the death march while we

were marching there was a Hitler Jugend, the equivalent of boy scouts. They were

throwing rocks at us while we were walking in uniform through the countryside. They

cussed our names, names that I learned later, what they meant. All kinds of dirty names,

on us. They constantly poisoned their minds about the Jews and that’s what should be

written. Because there definitely aren’t going to be any survivors left.

MM: Right. Is there anything I forgot to ask you about that would help me better

understand your experience?

HG: No I think you did pretty good.

MM: OK, and is there anything that you specifically… What was the most traumatizing

experience? What single experience do you remember most vividly?

HG: In the beginning, as a young boy, not quite 12 years old, when they push your

mother with a rifle butt, over to the side, but she wanted to come say bye to me because I

worked in the factories, and they took her away, with my two married sisters. And she

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wanted to come over and give me a hug, or maybe a kiss, I don’t know. And they

mistreated her, and I felt like I had anything to fight back, I certainly would. But I was

not quite 12 years old, there are guys standing there with rifles, dogs, that was the most

traumatizing event for a long time. I could not get it out of my mind. Still today I think

about it. That incident. And the happiest time was when the Americans came and they

told me I was free.

MM: OK, and you said that every day you prayed to God to help, save you, and you said

that your faith is intact today.

HG: Hmm?

MM: You said that your faith is intact today?

HG: Intact today, yes.

MM: Alright, are you a practicing Jew?

HG: Not really, not much but… certain things I still don’t do… I never eat pork, I don’t

mix milk and meat, a lot of things in the Jewish way that I remember as I was a youngster

from home. I still keep as much as I can from home, I go to synagogue…

MM: OK, well… I think that that… is… Oh… Do you keep up with any… was there

anybody that you met… when you were liberated by the Americans did you have any

friends that…

HG: We had lots of friends. We made friends, yes… who else can feel your pain except

if you were in it with him? We became very friendly, but after that some of them went to

Israel, some of them went to Canada, some went to America, some people went to

Australia, wherever they had relatives, they sponsored them to come. See with me, I was

a youngster so I did not remember where my sister lives. All I know was she was in

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America. But then I located her brother, the one in the Polish Army through that same

woman who helped me bleeding, Ida, my first cousin. After the war, after we got our

food back in our system, you didn’t yearn food anymore. You start thinking about your

family. We said let’s travel to different camps and see maybe they killed the children, the

women were strong women maybe they’re still alive. And I went to a camp called

Bergen-Belzen. I went to one place. And I went with a friend of mine. He was looking for

his relatives too. It was nothing but a women’s camp. Flussenburg, I mean Bergen-

Belzen. And it was British zoned, they liberated Bergen-Belzen, the British. They told me

you can’t stay but three days here, then you gotta go back to the American side. I didn’t

even want to stay one day there, I felt safe with the Americans. I didn’t trust nobody. I

just want the Americans, yes. With them, I trust them. They liberated me free, they gave

me my life back. I said they are my saviors. Then she says “I’m going to Poland, do you

wanna go with me?” I am gonna look for my brother, she says, who was in Russia. In

Poland, Russia occupied Poland for a while, they got entangled in there. But anyway, she

went to a place called Lutch Poland. It was a displaced persons camp, like we had here

too, where I was liberated. And she located her brother. And her brother knew my

brother. They were first cousins. And he says he was in the Polish Army. And she got a

hold of him over there and she says “Your brother, Henry, is by Frankfurt, Germany and

he is alive; he made it. He’s the only one.” Took two weeks, he came. I went to Germany

and I said “Do you know where my sister lives?” He says that she’s in the Washington

area. The best he could do. But then with the people, the organizations that opened up to

try to find people and all that business, they found out she’s in Washington with an

address and we can mail her. We sent a telegram off to her within one year. 1945 I was

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liberated of April, June ’46 I was on my way to New York. And who came to pick me up,

not my sister, the brother who escaped. The Polish soldier. He wound up in Lithuania,

and he got a hold of my sister in America and she was able to get him out here in 1941.

He never saw a Nazi.

MM: Wow. You said that your brother was in the Polish Army?

HG: Mhm.

MM: What did he… what was his role in the Polish Army? Do you know…

HG: He was just a soldier. Just a soldier, I don’t know. He wasn’t a general, wasn’t a

captain, just a private soldier. They have to serve three years.

MM: You said he was drafted, correct?

HG: Drafted, yes.

MM: OK before the…

HG: 18 years old!

MM: 18 years? OK.

HG: Yeah, he was drafted at 18.

MM: OK, and was he taken away from your family? After… or not taken but he was

drafted and moved to…

HG: Well the Germans were not in our town yet. And he was already fighting the war.

So I never saw him. I’ve seen him, when he left, but I don’t remember where he was.

And he was liberated in Poland, somewhere.

MM: OK, well thank you very much, I really appreciate it.

HG: OK, are you finished with this one (points to camera)?

MM: Yes.

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HG: I have a printout here I wanna show you. In fact, you can glance through this. This

is high school, how children listen to you and maybe you can get an idea out of there.

MM: OK.

HG: Just look through that.

MM: Alright, well thank you very much Mr. Greenbaum, I greatly appreciate it.

HG: Alright my friend.

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Interview Analysis

What is history? In the words of historian Barbara Tuchman, “What his

imagination is to the poet, facts are to the historian. His exercise of judgment comes in

their selection, his art in their arrangement” (Tuchman 8). This quote, to me, sums up

history very well because it details how certain factors are key to understanding the past,

and the most important factor is accuracy. To me, history is the recollection of past

events through convergence of evidence, through medias such as interviews,

documentaries, and other forms of media to expose the victories and defeats of the past

and preserve them in detail to the future. To Carr, another famous historian, accuracy is

very important, as in any other field. However, history relies on accuracy; if someone

were to project the idea that Martin Luther King Jr. was white, they would be wrong and

their “history” would be incorrect. Carr says that “Accuracy is your duty, not a virtue”

(Carr 2). This states that a historian has to be accurate; if they are not, they will not

advance in their field. “To praise a historian for accuracy is like praising an architect for

using well-seasoned timer or properly mixed concrete in his building” (Carr 2). Again,

Carr stresses the importance of accuracy by saying that a historian should not be praised

for being accurate because it is something that should come naturally. Oral history sets

itself apart from other forms of historical sources because it is consisted of direct

interviews with someone who took part in an event or witnessed it. Oral history is a way

for the future to understand the past. Using this interview, one can better understand the

Holocaust by looking through someone else’s eyes.

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Donald Ritchie, a famous oral historian, says that “memory is the core of oral

history, from which meaning can be extracted and preserved” (qtd. by Ritchie in

Whitman 3). By this, Ritchie is saying that oral history is very reliant and can sometimes

prove fallible because of its dependency on the interviewee. Although oral history can

provide great interviews and knowledge for future historians, it is also very unpredictable

since it has so many factors that can change, such as issues with memory. This leads to

the point of strengths and weaknesses of oral history. If someone wants their story to be

more exciting, they can change their story without the interviewer ever knowing. Oral

history, in essence, is based on human trust and honor. There were several strengths and

weaknesses of my oral history interview. One example of a strength in my interview was

that I was able to change the questions when necessary. Also, if my interviewee answered

a question that I had not asked yet, I was able to come up with another question of the

same importance to fill in the gap where the other question would have been. However,

as with all interviews, there were weaknesses too. I often used crutch words to fill time in

which I was thinking about how to phrase the question. I also made some pauses that, in

my mind, seemed appropriate at the time, but just sounded awkward on the recording.

Some of my questions were not very important to the overall interview as well.

There were many highlights of my interview. One main highlight that I found

astonishing was that the Germans used the Jews that they had captured and imprisoned to

work in the factories on products and weapons that were to be used on them at a later

date. Mr. Greenbaum said, during his experience working in a munition factory “Then I

was transferred over to step out the… a mold you get out from a hot oven that pours in

melted metal and it goes in and it makes a fold. They were anti-aircraft shells” (McMillen

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24) The anti-aircraft shells that they were making were used against United States Air

Force bombing runs. The Americans liberated my interviewee and his camp, so

essentially, the Germans made the Jews work for them to aid their own resistance. Also

my interviewee’s recollection of certain events surprised me. He remembered several

events that happened when he was 13 or 14 years old, and with such vividness. When his

mother and sisters were taken away from him during selection, it was obviously a very

traumatic experience. He remembered the order that his family was taken away from him

so vividly; “when they push your mother with a rifle butt, over to the side, but she wanted

to come say bye to me” (McMillen 32).

My interviewee’s story matched up with many parts of my textbook. Dwight

Eisenhower wrote a letter to General George Catlett Marshall to tell him about the

horrors of the concentration camps. “In one room, where they [there] were piled up

twenty or thirty naked men, killed by starvation, George Patton would not even enter”

(Hoffman 279). This shows how similar the textbook and my interviewee’s story are. My

interviewee told of rooms where they would keep bodies after they had been killed.

There are also many similarities to transcriptions of other students. My interview,

I felt, was very casual and laid back, but informative. Most of his answers were extensive

and thought-provoking, but other answers were small, but very meaningful. A project

done by Alanne Wheeler in 2007 yielded very formal answers. Overall, the interview was

very formal and informative, along with short and long answers, both being useful.

Another project done in 2007 by Vensa Harasic showed her interview to be of high value,

but most of the answers were very short and to the point, leading to many details being

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left out. Differences like this may exist because of the way the interviewee was raised;

formally and strictly or calmly and casually.

My interview completely confirmed what I had researched; everything my

interviewee said related to my research. This helped me very much, seeing as I could date

almost every major event he mentioned, not to mention I could formulate questions much

more easily. My interview embodies the essence of the project: to capture someone who

is not in the limelight all the time, but rather with someone who speaks their story only to

a lucky number of people. Through this process, I learned more about the Holocaust in

that two hour period than I did my entire time researching. Even though I used

convergence of evidence, Mr. Greenbaum taught me more about the Holocaust than I

have ever known. I also learned that this project itself yields great results. No matter how

taxing this project is, these primary sources will help the future learn about the past.

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Works Consulted

Carr, Edward Hallett. The Historian and His Facts. N.p.: n.p., n.d. Print.

Dawidowicz, Lucy S. the War Against the Jews. New York: Bantam Books, 1986. Print.

Graber, G. S. The History of the SS. New York: David McKay Company, Inc., 1978.

Print.

Blogier, Betty. Personal interview conducted by Vensa Harasic as part of the American

Century Project, 2007

History Place. N.p., n.d. Web. 8 Dec. 2012.

<http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/ww2time.htm#1940>.

Hitler, Adolf. Mein Kampf. Trans. Ralph Manheim. First Mariner Books ed. New York:

Houghton Mifflin, 1999. Print.

"Hitler Orders Europe Cleared of Jews before End of War." Christian Science Moniter 8

Oct. 1943: n. pag. Print.

"Hitler Reoccupies the Rhineland." History. A&E Television Networks, n.d. Web. 8 Dec.

2012. <http://www.timetoast.com/timelines/holocaust-timeline-1933-1945>.

Hoffman, Elizabeth Cobbs, Edward J. Blum, and Jon Gjerde. Major Problems in

American History. 3rd ed. Vol. II. N.p.: Wadsworth, 2012. Print.

The Knesset. The State of Israel, 2005. Web. 13 Nov. 2012.

<http://www.knesset.gov.il/shoah/eng/ehashoah.htm>.

Kohn, Hans. "At the end was Hitler." New York Times [New York] 16 Feb. 1964: n. pag.

Print.

Second World War History. N.p., n.d. Web. 8 Dec. 2012.

<http://www.secondworldwarhistory.com/germany-ww2-events-timeline.asp>.

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Tolischus, Otto D. "Hitler Due to List New Laws on Jews." New York Times [New York]

1 Sept. 1935: n. pag. Print.

Tuchman, Barbara. When Does History Happen? N.p.: n.p., n.d. Print.

"Wannsee Conference." Holocaust History. N.p., n.d. Web. 9 Dec. 2012.

<http://www.holocaust-history.org/short-essays/wannsee.shtml>.

Whitman, Glenn. The American Century Project Resource Guide, 2012.

Wistrich, Robert S. "Adolf Hitler: Biography." Jewish Virtual Library. American-Israeli

Cooperative Enterprise, n.d. Web. 8 Dec. 2012.

<http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/hitler.html>.

- - -. Hitler and the Holocaust. Toronto: Orion Publishing Group Ltd., 2001. Print.