, �his recording of oral history interviews may be �sed by �esearchers in accordance with procedures established by the University of Rochester libraries. It is understood that the. following provisions apply during your lifetime. Initial those that apply and cross out those that do not.

The record ��g·ma�be us;d on y

Th� rec�(in� m�y � elted or \vr1tt7pe\miss1o8.

This ;tape I?� be epro uced in by my written permiss io· ..

wi t/y lvri tten pe/{ssion.

uo:t'ed only with Y

whole./ or i

.(signed);l(!JV'If'LcUvV U/ �)d_lU_CftCQi_ (date) Jvi1f: ·2,7_, 1q7(o

(interviewerl ""=

to

IntervieHee Herman Sarachan ------------------------

I:ntervie>ver Dennis B. Klein ����-�-----�-----

Date(s) of :i.ntervieH June 15, 22, 1976 ('3 tanes) ----

Setting (place of interview, people present, impr es si ons) Thoug� vre. met on tl-w kin?. of hod:! ,sl����Xydays that

_. b:::tngs

org anlc llfe to a halt, l;Ir. Sar ac nan reo aJJ.ed a iF��d Var' d .,... ·t; 0 , - ' h • t\ J.l' e r·-�� S"' ' le yas • ne �arnlng, owever. o.L� n �·. =racnan corrected hi:nselt:' and, on occasion , contradicted himself. This raises so�:te questions about the authenticity of his chronicle , particularly in the area of Zionism a.Yld the 196/_1· riots, and in connection Hith the dating of. events.

Background of' intervie1.-ree

Hr. Sarachan Ha"' born in Vilna in 1894,moved -to America (n ochest er) in 1903-190'-t a.:.nd , afteY· gaining an educ ation , 1vorked f'or · Hicl\:e;r-Freeman clothinp; and the JY. He lived in the Joseph Av. area f'rom-1921-1973 (?), became involved in local Zionism (1920s). {he develonment of the Leopold St. Schul, and in Fre·"masortry.

IntervieH a.bstract

The intervieVJ--through the mind and he o.rt of Jlir. Sarachan-­embrac es many facets of the local �-e omc--nuni ty. Through it all, p:::trticularly as r1lay Rabbi 11 of the Leooold St. Schul and in the Hasonic lodge ( 11FloHer City' If co..lmost all JeHS)' he ha�1 ·performed his life as te acher and organizer. Note: Mr.Sarachm ha � 'I)JJ.blished on Freemasonry Bnd Ji s vocation as "":nembers'niD director of the JY; �1e also has manuscript material on Te::nple Beth Is:Cael (in hi s ··possession)�

Intervie':J index (corresponding to tape nvnbers, sides of' tape, and casset-t; recorder nu ... sbeTs)

Social history

Demo o:r an hi c Ires i den ti B.l .;H:-- ·-· .

Sconomic

Politi_cal/civic

___ Zioni sm/I CJracl -::-->:·

Intervie�r lo7

_JeHish c oFrrnuni ty

_cor:rmunity relations -::-

JeHish education -!:-

Anti-semi tis:n -l:·

a) co·ere snonclinr� to tan8 nny"!bers, sides o (' tnne, rmcl casse tt rec:order nos. b) inclu.din0: rcferencc8 t o other8 in the r-{ochester COFUnuni ty

·--se0 folloidn(� p:-:�.:�e ( s) --

Horma:n. Sarachan

Tape 1, Side A LTune 15, 1976

I .. Biography l1. Per s on 0l ���;� B. Leopold St1'c8t Schul (Conr·reo.tion Beth Israel ) -::-:�

Kle:ln/1

C. Vilna ( 1891!.-1899), Z adishak (?) near Smargon ( 1899-1903) �:-�;. D. Ps�ren ·Gs �� .. E. Immigration F. Residential Gb Hel:i.gion H. Secular Schcol, UR I. Vo c ation : IUcke�yr-Freemnn Ciliothin�-;;; J'.l ·(dormitory, mem­

bership director )

II. JY (1936-1961-J-.) A. German/ 'fl:ast Et1ror)e an Je',·rs B. Sol Hulm.on c. Je··Tish/ non-.Jec·rir-Jh relations

III. Clothing/ Hickey-FrGcmw.n: m:=mar."ement

IV,. B1rith Kod.Gsh A. Teacher, 1920s B. Conflict: orthodox background in lieform synon;ogue c. Habbi Bernstein: r e lat ion to Beth Is:bael (refe:rence:

record or t e:oe of Bernstein/ Snra.chan ta.lk on Beth Israel ) -:H�

rrape 1, Side B

V. Impact of Denres::d.on A. Clothing In du s tr ;r B. JY

VI. JY

VII.

A. Ivierr1bership director B. 11Friondship Club11

Orthodox Je1-d.sh community--Leopold Street S�hul A. Changes over years (e : g. ,j oint r.eating of men and

women ) -:H:-B. !flay Rabbi11 (1921-1973) .;;. C. Reference: }History of Conc�rea:ation .i:>f Beth Israel11

(in Snnachan1s nnssession) D. 'I'rensfer to BJ.D.ck JeHi8h comnmnity-- 11Ghristian Saints Ti:. A:m11.lgamation ':Ti th Beth Hornedrash -::--::-F. ClosinfS of LeoDold .St . .Schul

VIII. Joseph i\v. Area A. Gorhax:1 Stre0t 1921··1073 -:·:-�:­B. Circu.nstances in movine ( . (Y L· '�/ PLn•l-:' .. :;r· ,J:

' , _.- I c .._. -- ,'{' !'- ·

Jffi L v crJf.A.Jj t.NJ£-< 'WJ<.\:.JYi.-12. r-J-c tY�0

Herm�:cn S o.r a chan Tape 2, :Side A .rune 22, 1976

VIII. Josenh Av. 1\rea., cont. D. 'rhe neir;hborhood

IX. Masonic lodge in Rochester I A. History �H:-B.. Persoanl invol vem,cmt C. Published material

1. llCam-oo.ip;ninr:: for :Members" (YHCA) 19lt9 �;. II -- ,

2. History of :Na.xonry in Nonroe Co11nty11 �� 3. "Primer of Free Nasonry11

D. Function E. Hozart: n:r1agic Flute tt

F. Se crecy -::..;<-G. nFlo-r,rer Ci ty11 l odge �H:.

1. joined, 1926 2. Reasons for joining

H. ur�1:1sonry is l'"'elir�ir-'lJS • • • bu�t l1ot a religi..c)nu �� I. JeHish demension �HH:­

l.Ri tual

Tap e 2, Side B

I. Jewish dimension, cont. 2. JeHish corrmosition: its importance

x. B'nai B ' rith ** ·

XI. I

Hasorrc'1 lodge I I A. Location--ib'�?byf�·€£-rl

Klein/2

B� Relation bet\.J'een Je1.-Jish religion and masonry �:-C. 111'Ionroe Masonic l'fe"t,rs 11 : column--11Dear Brother _ Sarachanu D. Use of S:v-mbol of .Jesus Christ ·:H:. E. Fellm·.rshin F. 11Flo-vrer Cfuty11 lodge: 11JeHish lodrze 11 -JHH:-

1. Contribution to J-9l>Jish 1?1elfare 11u.nd 2. Joe Silverstein (315) 3. Attracted JeHs 4. 3 of h50 non-Jews 5. }1edim1- ar;e: 50-!)5

G. LectLlreS .. ;:-!�

XII. Observations on Anti-Semitism A. In Rochester (none ) * B. In Freemasonry (none) -lH:·

XII I a I sr ae 1 a:nd Zionism A. 1965 trin to Israel B. Secretary t>i6' Zion ist Organization C. Instrt'L>nental in formation of lo c al Zionist orga·nization

1 1920s �H:·

XIV. Hisc'c�llaneous: civic invol voment -::-

Tape 3, Side A

XIV. Hi scellaneous, cont B. Hasonic ory nization

Sarach3.n, Herman

c. Sectarian influences tn Masonic orp;anization D. Zioniom �r .. ��

1. Withdrew in 1930s 2. Background: Th. Herz1 3. Young Judean (Later JY), Err1.'Y!a Lazarus Club

E. State of Israel : 1973 (Yom Kippur) 1rar F.RBI: /Unerica11i.zation of Gerraan im..migrants ��· G. Local symphonic activity (arnateur)

Klein/3

I n te rv i ew w i t h H ERMAN SARACHAN J un e 1 5 , 1 97 6 By Denn i s Kl e i n

I n terv i ew T5Jpe 1 S i de A

Page 1

Q. Th i s i s Denn i s K l e i n ta l k i ng w i t h M r . He rman Sa rachan . Today i s J une 1 5 , 1 97 6 .

We 1 re t a l k i ng a t M r . Sa rachan 1 s home o n a n ext reme l y wa rm day . And t h i s i s

Tape No . 1 , S i de A . S uppose we beg i n , M r . Sarachan , w i t h an ove rv i ew of

your backg round and a br i ef s ketch of you r l i fe .

A . V e r y br i ef l y , I wa s born i n V i l n a , s o-ca l l ed cap i ta l of L i t huan i a , a n d came

ove r w i t h my p a r en t s i n 1 903 when I wa s ve ry young , of cou rse . At t ha t t i me

I i mmed i a te l y wen t to Sc hoo l N o . 9 , f rom wh i ch I g ra d ua ted i n 1 9 1 3 . .

cor r ec t i on i n 1 90 9 . I t wa s f rom Ea s t H i g h Schoo l t ha t I g ra d u a ted i n 1 9 1 3 .

Ente red t he Un i ve r s i ty i n the Depa r tmen t of Eng i nee r i ng and g ra d ua ted w i t h a

B . S . i n 1 9 1 7 . D u r i ng Wo r l d Wa r I I wa s connected w i t h Lem son A r t s Company

i n M i l i an . When t he wa r wa s ove r i n 1 9 1 9 , I came ba ck to Roc hes t e r a n d

t ha t fa l l I became an i n s t r uc t o r a t Corne l l Un i ve r s i ty i n the Depa r tmen t o f

Eng i nee r i n g , wa s t he re fo r two yea r s and t hen came ba ck to teach a t t he

Un i ve r s i ty o f Roc hester i n t he Depa rtmen t of Eng i nee r i ng . I n 1 92 3 , a f t e r

two s umme r s spent i n the H i c key -F reeman C l ot h i ng Company i n t he i r p rod uc t i on

depa rtmen t , I became perma n en t l y connec ted w i t h H i c key�F reeman and wa s t he re

un t i l 1 925 . I n 1 926 t he new JY wa s opened . I hes i tate bec a u se my d a t e s may

be a 1 i t t l e off .

Q. I t m i g ht be a coup l e yea rs l a ter , t ha t 1 s OK.

A. N i neteen .

Q, I 2 8 , I 2 9,

A . I be 1 i eve 1 92 6 wa s t he cor rect yea r . I became connec ted w i t h t he Jew i s h Young

Men 1 s a n d Women 1 s Assoc i a t i on a s Membe r s h i p and Dorm i tory D i rector . The

dorm i tor i e s c . on . . · con s 1 s tedcf fou r f l oo r s of 1 68 rooms for men . The res t

I n te rv i ew w i t h He rman Sa ra chan Page 2

A . ( Can t i n ued ) of t he bu i l d i ng wa s sim i l a r to t he u s u a l YMCA. I wa s

connected w i t h t he J Y un t i l my ret i remen t i n 1 964. F rom t hen on my

a ctivitie s we re l a rge l y w i th Ma sonic work , Ma sonic organ i za tion s1 a n d Ma s on i c

ac tivitie s . D u r i ng t he s e ma ny yea r s I wa s a l so a c tive l y con nected w i t h

Cong rega t i on Bet h I s rae l , t he so-ca l l ed Leop o l d S t ree t Shu l . The o l d e s t

O r t hodox cong rega t i on i n t h i s ci ty . became as sociated w i t h i t a s a membe r

a n d a cong r eg a n t when wa s ma r r i ed i n 1 92 1 beca use my f a t he r - i n - l aw , Abra ham

A l de rman , had been ve ry a c t i ve as p re s i den t a n d for many years the sec ret a ry

of Con g rega t i on Beth I s ra e l , a s we l l a s a ve ry a c t i ve member of the J ewi s h

commu ni ty . Since we had a g reat ma j o r i ty o f yea rs no rabbi I se rved a s a

l ay r abbi , pa r tic u l a r l y d u r i ng fe s t i va l s and h i g h ho l i days by chan ting p a r t

o f t h e se rvices , a s we l l a s de l i ve r i ng t he ho l yday a d d resses a n d va r i ou s

o t he r a c tivit i es . For a n umber of yea r s we a l so had a S unday schoo l , wh i ch

wa s q u i te act i ve u n t i l the J ew i sh commun i ty bega n to move awa y , espec i a l l y

when Temp l e Be t h E l wa s orga n i zed by membe r s of Bet h I s rae l who had become

a ff l uen t and a l s o des i red to form a Con s e rva tive temp l e . Con g rega t i on Beth

I s ra e l con t i n u ed to se rve the J ew i s h commun i ty a l t houg h on a more a n d mo re

mod e rn s ca l e un t i 1 1 963 when t he l a s t of us a c t ua l l y moved away from t he

ne i g hbor hood a n d Cong r ega t i on Be t h I s rae l me rged wit h Temp l e Be th Hamed res h

on Ea s t Av en ue to fo rm Temp l e Be th Hamedres h - Be t h I s ra e l . I n t h i s n ew

temp l e my act i v i t i es have con t i n ued to t he p resen t day.

Q . Le t me c l a rify tha t . You went to the Un i ve r s i ty o f Roche s te r , you men t i oned

j u s t Unive r s i ty . I wa n ted t o c l a rify t ha t poin t .

A . Un i ve r si t y o f Roche s te r . And a g ra d u a te , M a s t e r s i n Corne l l .

Q. OK.

A .

Q .

Wh i l e teach i ng the re i n t he Eng i nee ring Depa r tmen t .

Now you men t i d . . . b · t one a n umbe r of very 1 n t e r e s t 1 ng po 1 n t s and I wan t to egtn o

I n te rv i ew w i t h He rman Sa rachan Page 3

Q. ( Con t i n ued )

a bo u t t hem .

d i s sect some of t hese p o i n t s and a s k you some more q ue s t i ons

Let 1 s g o bac k t o . . . we l l , i n to you r R u s s i an or i g i n s and a s k

you some more q ues t i on s . F i rs t of a l l , when we re you born and i f you cou l d

desc r i be t o u s how l ong you we re i n V i l na and wha t t ha t wa s l i ke , wha t memor i e s

you ha ve of th i s of t h i s town ?

A . I wa s born i n 1 894 . W e d i d n ot rema i n i n t h i s b i g c i ty , V i l n a , very l ong

beca u s e my f a t he r when I wa s s t i l l ve ry young , I be l i eve i t wa s 1 §991 certa i n l y

no l a te r t ha n 1 900 , t h a t he l ef t for th i s coun t ry . And my mot he r and the

c h i l d ren , I have a brot he r and a s i s te r , moved to a sma l l v i l l age . . . do

you wan t t he name?

Q . S u re .

A . ca l l ed Zad i s ha k . You s pe l l i t .

Q . Can you spe 1 1 i t ?

A . l 1 d say z-a -d - i - s - h-a - k , Zad i s ha k . Abo u t seven Ru s s i an m i l es f rom a l a rge r

c i ty of Sma rgon , s -m-a - r- g - o-n . The re my memo r i e s a re much more d i s t i nc t.

s ta rted i n a s ede r , J ew i s h s c hoo l , i mmed i ate l y . And we we re fo rtunate to

ha ve a tea c her , a mos t capa b l e man , my mot he r a l wa y s bo re me ou t on t ha t , who

had come to t he v i l l age on doc tor's orders for h i s hea l t h . And mot her has

often reca l l ed t hat when we we re get t i ng ready to l ea ve for Ame r i ca he

exp re ssed g rea t reg ret t h a t I wa s go i ng to that un r e l i g i ous coun t ry . I ' m

Q .

not s ure j u st how he ca l l ed i t . I n a ny even t , we l ef t i n 1 903 to j o i n our

fat her he re i n Roche s t e r .

Your fa t he r , wha t wa s h i s name ?

a n d why he came to Ame r i ca ?

And cou l d you t e l l u s someth i ng about h i m

A . H i s name wa s Aa ron Wo l fe . And as near a s I can f i g u re o u t i t wa s beca use

t h i ng s we re i n V i l na not very good econom i ca l l y . He wa s wo r k i n g1 I t h i n k ,

a s a b l acksm i t h o r some re l a ted wor k o f t ha t k i nd because I have a d i s t i nc t

Ln t e rvfew wiih He rman Sa rachan Pa ge 4

A . (Colitl i n ued ) reco l l ec t i on , and mot her ha s ra t i f i ed i t , t h a t when

wa s a s ked , 1 i t tle fe l l ow , wha t you r fat he r does , I sa i d he bea t s out penn i es .

So t h a t h i s b rot he r s who had p r eceded h i m to t h i s coun t ry un doubted l y m u s t

have wr i t ten to h i m tha t cond i t i ons a re m u c h bet te r i n t h i s coun t ry�

Q . I be l i eve . . . we l l , certa i n l y a cou p l e yea rs a ft e r you came to Ame r i ca t he re

we re t he Russ i an pog roms , 1 905 . Wa s t he re any of t h i s g o i ng on ea r l i e r a n d

cou l d th i s have p l a yed i n to h i s dec i s i on com i ng ove r to Ame r i ca ?

A . I d on 1 t reco l l ect any reports of pog roms , pe rha p s I wa s too young , before he

l ef t . But I know t hat wh i l e we we re s t i l l i n t ha t R u s s i an vi l l age we hea rd

qf pog roms i n d i ffe ren t p l aces i n R u s s i a , b u t i t wa sn 1 ·t un t i l we we re i n t h i s

c oun t ry i n 1 904 a nd 1 905 t ha t we began to hea r of the d read f u l pog roms t ha t

broke out i n t hose yea rs.

Q. I t wa s e s s en t i a l l y t hen for econom i c reason s ? Cou l d you te l l u s someth i ng

t hen about you r mot he r ? What wa s he r n ame and whe re d i d s he come f rom1 i f

you remembe r ?

A . He r name wa s S a r a h Fagan a n d I am not s u re whe t he r s he wa s or i g i na l l y f rom

V i l na or from Sma rgo n . And I know ve ry l i t t l e a bout he r backg round . She d i d

J i ve to a r i pe o l d age , I t h i n k s he was 84 when s he pas sed awa y .

Q . May I a s k you whe re the name Sa rachan came from ?

A . M y b rother wrote t o one of t he J ew i s h week l i es , t he Pos t and Op i n i on , wh i ch

ha s a r abb i t ha t an swe rs tha t q ue s t i on . And I be l i eve he sa i d t ha t i t s tems

f rom some l oca l , p hys i ca l cha rac t e r i s t i c . I n o t her wo rd s , a sma l l r i ve r , or

somet h i ng of t ha t sor t .

Q . One rea son I a s k t ha t q ue s t i on i s t ha t you sa i d you r fa t he r 1 ·s n ame wa s Aa ron

Wo l fe a nd why d i dn 1 t you a s s ume t he name Wo l fe ?

A . Tha t was h i s name.'

Q. Why d i d n 1 t you ?

I n t e rv i ew w i t h M r . Herman S a ra chan

A. Oh , no . Aa ron Wo l fe we re h i s two . . . two names , s u rnames .

Q . O K.

A . S a ra chan was h i s l a st name .

Q . OK. I wan ted t o . . .

A . Yea .

Q . ma ke t ha t c l ea r .

Page 5

A . I n Hebr ew i e s Za i v , i s Wo l fe , a n d h e wa s ca l l ed1 a s a ma t t e r o f fact , by

h i s . . . t he d i m i n u t i ve Ze l vo , j u s t as we s ay J i m fo r Jame s .

Q . let me a s k now whe re t he brothe rs of you r fa t he r had sett l ed or i g i na l l y i n

Ame r i ca a nd where you r father came to or i g i na l l y ?

A . They we re i n Roche s te r . Whe t he r they came d i rec t l y t o Roche s t e r o r not , t h a t

I can't say def i n i te l y . B u t t hey we re i n Roche s t e r and my father came d i rec t l y

to Roche s te r . And we j o i ned h i m d i rect l y i n Roche s t e r . My unc l e , Lou i e1

was a dom i na n t membe r of t h i s same cong rega t i on , Be t h I s rae l , a p re s i dent for

a n umber of yea rs . An d he wa s a l so a s uperv i sor for h i s wa rd , t h a t wa s my

unc l e , lou i e . The othe r brothe r , Max , wa s the owner of a g roce ry store ,

be l i eve i t wa s . And for a t i me t hey J i ved i n a sma l l v i l l age whe re t hey had

a l so t ha t k i nd of a bu s i nes s . B u t mos t of the t i me t hey J i ved i n Roche s t e r

and t he i r descendan t s a re now i n Roc he s te r .

Q . Wha t wa s i t a bout Roche s te r , do you t h i n k , t ha t a t trac ted you r fam i l y he re?

A . I ha ven ' t t he s l i g h te s t i dea . Exce p t t ha t we ' ve been very , very h<:)p p y here

a l l t he s e years; I wou l dn ' t J i ve anywhe re e l s e .

Q . You men t i oned t ha t you we re i nvo l ved i n t he c l ot h i ng bus i n e s s a f te r t he

f i rs t wa r .. Wa s t h i s . . . wa s t he re a n y re l a t i on s h i p between that bus i nes s ,

s i nce Roc he s ter wa s so p rom i nent i n c l ot h i ng , and t he a t t ra c t i on of you r

fam i l i e s to t he . . . to t he c i ty i t se l f ?

A . I don l t know j u s t wha t t he re l a t i on s h i p wa s, b u t a t a bout t h a t t i me , a bout

I n t e rv i ew w i t h M r . He rman Sa rac han Page 6

A . ( Con t i n ued ) 1 92 3 t he c l ot h i ng factor i es began t o p u t on t he i r s taffs

eng i neers o r t ra i ned i nd u s t r i a l i s t s and econom i st s f i rs t the l a bor manager

a n d l a te r the fa c to ry manag e r at H i ckey-F reeman . And he b roug ht i n seve ra l

c o l l ege g rad uat es . was one of t hem , a nd I wa s put i n cha rg e of the

p roduc t i on off i ce .

Q. So you g ot i nvo l ved i n c l ot h i ng rea l l y much a f te r you l d been i n • . . had

a l r eady set t l ed i n Roche s t e r ?

A . Oh , yes , ye s , many y ea r s l a te r .

Q . Whe re d i d you r fam i l y l i ve i n Roc hes ter when you f i r s t moved he re?

A . We l i ved on . . . on Joseph Aven ue .

Q. How l on g d i d you l i ve t he re ?

A . Now m y memory•s beg i nn i ng t o fa i l me .

fo r I s ra e l , and I s hou l d men t i on t ha t .

We we re . . , . i t wa s a f ter fa t he r l eft

My f a t he r l ef t for I s rae l a n d d i ed

a n d b u r i ed there beca u se of h i s hea l t h . He wa s to l d he shou l d g o e i t he r to

a p l ace l i ke Ar i zona or I s ra e l , he chose I s rae l , whe re a s i s te r of her • . . h i s

a n d he r h u s band had set t l ed some yea r s before .

Q . When d i d you r fa t he r go to I s rae l ?

A . I wou l d say i t was a bout 1 940 • cause he wa s t he re a n umber o f yea r s befo re

he p a ssed awa y , a nd he p a s sed away a bout 1 948 I wou l d say .

Q. D i d he go to I s ra e l on l y beca u se of h i s hea l t h ? One wou l d s u spect t hat

t he re wou l d be o t he r rea s on s .

A . wou l d s ay h i s hea l t h . •ca u se t he re wha t t i me h e had h e devoted i n.

a home fo r the aged , s tudy i ng a n d l ea rn i ng and read i ng but not • • • not

econom i ca l l y emp l oyed .

i n

Q. Wha t . . . how i n vol ved wa s you r fa ther i n t he J ew i s h commun i ty i n Roche s t e r ?

A . We l l , he wa s a membe r of an O r t hodox synagogue , h e a t tended s e rv i ces reg u l a r l y .

He d i d not ho l d a ny off i ce.

I nte rv i ew w i t h M r . He rman Sa rachan

Q . And you r mot he r?

Pag e 7

A . Mot he r a l so l i ved a re l i g i ous l i fe , b u t wa s n l t espec i a l l y act i ve i n t he

commun i ty .

Q. D i d you r fam i l y obse rve t he r i t ua l and c u s toms of t he J ew i sh re l i g i on ?

A . V e ry O r thodox .

Q . You men t i oned you had . . . you have a brother and a s i s t e r . What a re t he i r

names a n d do t hey l i ve i n Roches te r ?

A . M y bro t he r 1 s G oodman wa s a Federa l a t torney for many yea r s ; he l s a l awye r .

He wa s a Fede ral a t to rney for a n umber o f yea r s and se rved a s j udge for p a r t

of a t e rm , a nd wa s a member o f t he s o�ca l l ed St ate C r i me Comm i s s i oh for a

n umbe r of yea r s un t i l he re t i red . Had a ve ry , I wou l d say , had a ve ry good

ca ree r i n t ha t f i e l d .

Q. An d you r s i s t e r 7

A . M y s i s t e r h a s been a ct i ve i n Temp l e Beth E l. Her h u s band , who p a s sed awa y a

n um be r of year s ago , wa s very a c t i ve , a n off i ce r and a g rea t con t r i b u to r to

Bet h E l . He r h u s band wa s co- founde r w i t h a man by the name of Ge rma now ,

Ge rmanow- S i mon Corpora t i on , ma n u fa c tu res wa tch c ry s ta l s a s one o f t he i r

p rod u c t s . And h i s son i s now i n t he bus i ne s s a l ong w i t h the sons o f t he

or i g i na l Ge rman ow .

Q. I wou l d 1 i ke to go bac k n ow t o you r 1 i fe on Joseph Aveh ue and a t the N o . . 9

Schoo l . Te l l u s somet h i ng a bout t ha t .

A . 1 1 m not s u re t ha t there i s ve ry much to te l l . I a t tended schoo l . I g ue s s I

d i d q u i te we l l i n my . . . my s t ud i es . And when I g ra d ua ted I wa s re l a t i ve l y

one o f a sma 1 Ln umbe r1 re l a t i ve l y sma l l n umber·, who wen t on to h i g h schoo l of

ou r g ra d ua t i ng c l a s s . Then i f . . . t ha t 1 s as much as I can say , n o pa r t i cu l a r

i nc i d en ts except t ha t g rade a f t e r g rade s k i pped a coup l e t i me s . B u t i n h i g h

schoo l I had a n i n te res t i ng expe r i ence .. 1 .. .. . . d i d I g ue s s q u i te we l 1 i h

I n te rv i ew w i t h M r . He rman Sa rachan Page 8

A . (Con t i n u ed ) my s tu d i e s i n my f i rs t yea r� And a t t he end o f t h a t yea r

I reg i s tered f o r a comme rc i a l cou r se ra ther t han a c o l l ege p repa ra tory cou rse ..

My home room tea che r, who wa s a l so my a l gebra teache r , wa s a woman by t he name

of M i nn i e V i nz i n , whom eve rybody ca l l ed Aun t M i nn i e .. S he ca l l ed me i n , a sked

me to s tay a f t e r schoo 1 . I see t ha t you reg i s t e red for comme rc i a I cou rse ,

why? And I sa i d ve ry q u i e t l y t h a t I have a brothe r com i ng a l ong a coup l e

y ea rs beh i nd me who i s a r ea l br i g h t boy so I f i g u red that 1 1 II take a

commerc i a l cou rse , I I:JI go to work and he l p h i m go t h rough co l l eg e . Her

an swe r was t ha t wa s a ve ry ! aud i b l e amb i t i on , b u t you have to con s i de r you r se l f

a l so . I f ee l t ha t y ou s ho u l d p repare fo r c o l l eg e , t hen i f you wan t to go to

a comme rc i a l wor k you ' l l be j us t a s we l l p repa red . And so t ha t ' s wha t t u rned

me to c o l l eg e p r epa ra tor y .

Q . Wou l d y ou . . .

A . 1 1 ve a lways been g ra tefu l t o Aun t M i nn i e for t h a t�

Q . You don' t reg r et t h a t p i ece of adv i c e ?

A . Neve r .

Q .

A .

Wha t .

We I I,

. wha t wou l d a commerc i a l cou rse have J ed to?

wou l d have s t ud i ed bookkeep i ng , a ccoun' t: i :mg , proba b l y typ i ng . I ' m not

q u i te s u re j us t wha t wou l d be i nvo l ved w i t h tha t . Those we re t he p r i nc i p l e

s u bjec t s , bookkeep i ng and accoun t i ng .

Q . The Josep h Aven ue a rea was hea v i J y Ea s te rn E u ropean i n compos i t i oh .

A . I n my g ra dua t i ng c l a s s I t h i n k 95% we re J ew i s h boys a nd g i r l s ah d on l y 5%

or l es s , I wou l d j udge , a nd we mu s t have had 60 i n a c l a s s , mus t have been

j u s t t h ree non-Jews i n tha t c l a s s .

Q . And t hey we re p r i ma r i l y f r om the J ew i s h pa i l of .

A . That•s r i g ht . Mos t l y i mm i g ran t s , c h i l d ren o f . .

Q . So you we re i n t he, . . you we re .. . .. adj u s tmen t to Ame r i ca wa s made ea s i e r

I n t e rv i ew w i t h M r . H e rma n Sa rachan Page 9

Q . (Con t i nu ed ) beca u s e o f t ha t s i tua t i on ? Was t he l anguage spoken . . .

Eng ] i s h I a s s ume i n t he schoo l s .

A . I n t he s c hoo l s . At home i t wa s a l wa y s Y i dd i s h. Un t i l mother pas sed away I

wou l d speak to her i n Y i dd i s h .

Q. When d i d you J ea rn Eng l i sh a nd how?

A. By j u s t g o i ng to schoo l I g ue s s.

Q . Go i ng t o s c hoo l . . The re wa s n o forma l cour se o r any th i ng of t ha t sor t ? OK .

When you wen t to t he Un i ve r s i ty of Roche s te r wa s t he re a q uota sys tem a t . . .

a t t ha t t i me t ha t s e l ec ted t he i r can d i dates on ce rta i n non-a cadem i c ba s e s ?

A . The i n fo rma t i on t ha t I had , i t seemed to b e gene ra l know l edge , wa s t ha t t h e

Un i ve r s i ty of Roche s te r wa s n o t f r i end l y to teache rs , b u t when i t came to

s tuden t s I doubt t here wa s a q uota sys tem .. So fa r a s the eng i neer i ng

d epa r tmen t wa s con ce rn ed t he re we re , i f I remembe r cor rect l y , a bo u t s i x teen

or e i ght�en .. who s ta r ted t he eng i neer i ng cou rs e . By the en d of the f i r s t yea r

t here we re fou r of u s l eft . So t ha t I wa s t he on l y Jew. So t hat , I g ues s ,

nobody had a ny fee l i ng t ha t I d i d n' t be l on g .

Q. The re wasn ' t any q uota d i rected towa rds J ews then a s fa r a s you we re awa re ?

A . Noth i ng , I never had a n y fee l i ng . And I 've a l ways been ve ry f r i end l y w i th

some o f t he c l a ssma tes of t he o t h e r cou r ses when we me t at reun i on s , t ha t s o r t

o f t h i ng .

Q. Now t hen you went i n to . . . i n to t he c l ot h i ng bus i nes s a f te r t he f i r s t wa r

a nd t hen became i nvo l ved i n t he J Y a s Membe rs h i p a n d Dorm i tory D i recto r .

Was th i s you r f u l l -t i me j ob ?

A . F u l l - t i me j ob . Not on l y f u J I- t i me , somet i mes I wa s ca l l ed i n the m i dd l e o f

t he n i g ht , somet h i ng happened a n d t hey needed m e . Or t he n i g h t ma n d i dn 1 t

s h ow up , who was su pposed to show up a t ten o ' c l oc k , a n d I had to run down

a n d t a ke ove r t he des k , t h i ng s of t hat sor t . Tha t d i dn ' ·t happen ve ry of ten ,

I n ter v i ew w i th He rman Sa rac han Page I 0

A .

Q.

A .

( C on t i nued ) but I wa s ava i l a b l e .

And t h i s j ob you had un t i l 1 964?

Tha t ' s r i ght , u n t i l I ret i red .

Q. The maj or port i on o f yo u r l i fe wa s i nv o l ved i n the J Y 7 The J Y wa s s i gn i f i ca n t

i n t he commun i ty beca u s e i f a n y t h i ng i t un i ted t he va r i ou s segmen ts w i t h i n

the commun i ty . I t h i n k t he segmen t o f t he commun i ty i nvo l ved o r res pon s i b l e

for organ i z i ng t h i s p roj ect were t he G e rman Jews ?

A . La rge l y , b u t t hey we re t he wea l th i e r J ews .

Q . They had t he money .

A . B y . . . by the t i me t he o r i g i na l J Y wa s orga n i zed s ome o f t he E a s t E u ropean

Jews we re becom i n g up and becom, i ng more and mo re i mpor tan t i n t he commun i ty .

B u t for a t ime , t h i s I 1 m go i ng i n to anothe r f i e l d , for a t i me t he Ge rman Jews

had the i r c ha r i t i es , t hey had t he i r orp han a sy l um , and t hey had a l l the i r

own organ i za t i on s . And t he Ea s t E u ropea n J ews had t he i r s , and i t wasn't un t i l

l a te r tha t t hey came tog e t he r .

Q. S i �n i f i ca n t l y t h r oug h the J Y a n d ot he r . .

A . I wou l d say yes , t hro ugh t he J Y a n d othe r organ i za t i on s .

Q. OK. I be l i eve there wa s a n o l de r J Y before t he a c t u a l bu i l d i ng down town .

t h i n k i t wa s a t a house o r i n a home nea r Hyd e Pa r k . Does t h i s sound fam i l i a r

to you ?

A . We l l t he J . . • t he J Y o r i g i na l l y wa s i n a home , and t hey had bu i l t a

swi mm i ng poo l a n d a g ymnas i um i n t he back . Tha t 1 s whe re t he J Y s ta r ted .

Then i n 1 9 . l et ' s see , I t h i n k i n 1 92 2 . i n 1 924 t hey bega n t o ra i se

money fo r a n ew bu i l d i ng , t hey made the p l an s .

s topped . And now I may have to correct myse l f .

i n 1 936 , a n d t ha t ' s when I wen t on t he s ta f f .

Then t he wa r came and wo rk

The new bu i l d i ng wa s organ i zed

1 93 6 1cau se I wa s a t H i c key-

F reeman i n 1 933 to 1 935 . Yea , so o r i g i na l l y t hey s t a r ted to ra i se money

I n te rv i ew w i th He rman Sa rac ha n Page 1 1

A . ( Con t i nued )

the wa r .

a n d to ma ke p l a n s for a new b u i l d i ng i n 1 92 7 o r e i g ht . Then

t hen the g rea t Dep r e ss i on c ame i n 1 2 9 a n d bu i l d i ng stopped .

They ha d a c t u a l l y s ta r ted to bu i l d , a nd i t wa s j us t a s ke l e ton bu i ld i ng . Then

i n 1 935 t hey had . . . t hey had a d r i ve for f un d s , a n d I remembe r I wa s a s ked

to be a cap ta i n i n t ha t d r i ve , and t hey r a i sed s u f f i c i en t mon ey to comp l ete

t he bu i l d i ng a nd opened i t i n the fa l l of 1 936. I had al ready gone on t he

s t aff ea r l y t h a t yea r by wa y of p repa r i ng a n d ge t t i ng eve ryt h i ng ready a n d

so forth .

Q . So you bega n a ff i l i a t i on w i t h t he J Y t hen i n 1 9 . . .

A . I 35 .

Q . 1 93 5 . OK. So you men t i oned befo re i t wa s 1 92 6 . . .. you cor rected t h a t ..

A . Yea , t ha t 1 s why I sa i d , now i t c omes bac k .

Q . An d you . . .

A . A n o l d man • s memory i sn 1 t a s good a s i t s hou l d be .

Q . Na h , yo u 1 re do i ng f i n e , much bet te r than wha t I th i n k I can eve r do .

Tha n k you . A . 'I

Q. Wha t . . . y ou r . you we re t hen i nvo l ved w i t h H i c key- F reeman you men t i oned

i n t he ea r l y 1 930 1 s t hen ?

A . Yes , t ha t 1 s s o . Un t i l . . . yea , un t i l 1 935 .

Q . OK . Then so c l ot h i ng wa s rea l l y you r occupa t i on a f t e r t he f i r s t wa r t hrough

t he twen t i es and up to yo u r i nvo l veme n t i n t he J Y ?

A . That 1 s r i gh t , yea .

Q. Wa sn 1 t t he clo t h i ng bus i ness i n Roche s t e r a t t h i s po i n t i n d ec l i ne ? Was n 1 t

t h e re a n umbe r of compan i es tha t we re l eav i ng Roche s te r ?

A . A n umbe r o f sma l l e r compan i e s we re l eav i ng , b u t H i ckey-F reeman wa s g o i ng ve ry

b i g and so we re a t l ea s t two . a t lea s t t h r ee o t he r s , t he l a rg e ones . But

sma l l e r compa n i es e i t he r wen t ou t of bus i n e s s o r moved awa y,

I n t e rv i ew w i t h M r . He rman Sa rachan Page 1 2

Q. D i d you fee l t he re wa s a s i g n i f i ca n t J ew i sh e l emen t to the l a bor managemen t

compo s i t i on a n d t he rela t i on sh i p between l a bo r and managemen t ? Wa s t he re

a ny . . . beca use the re certa i n l y we re a n umber of Ea s te r h E u ropean J ews became

i nvo l ved i n c l ot h i ng i n Roches te r . D i d you fee l tha t p l a yed a pa r t ?

A . M y own wor k d i dn ' ; t br i ng me d i rect l y i n con t act w i th t he . .. . , t he un i on

excep t i n d i rect l y . I knew them a l l and wa s on t he who l e f r i endly w i th t hem .

My work wa s membe r s h i p . ran t he campa i gn s eac h yea r1 membe rshi p d r i ves.

Wa i t a m i n u te now , I ' m ge t t i ng a head of my sel f . Tha t ' s the J Y . B u t I s i mply

took ca re of the p roduc t i on off i ce , s ta f f , payro l l s , the comp l a i n t s of wor ke r s

tha t t hey we re unde rpa i d , i t wa s a m i s ta ke and we c hased t ha t down . . Tha t wa s

the way I came i n con ta c t w i th the wo rk .. . . , worke r s thems.elves , the

emp J oyees .

Q . You we re rea l l y on t he s i de of managemen t ?

A . Tha t ' s r i g ht , yea .

Q . D i d you have a n y . . . d i d you have to dea l w i t h the un i on a t all t hen ?

A . No.

Q . I n negot i a t i on s ?

A . Excep t once when I wa s a w i tness to a n a t tack by a u n i on ma n aga i n s t a fo rema n .

Tha t wa s my only contac t w i th a un i on .

Q . You t hen became i n vo l ved i n the J Y i n 1 93 5 or 1 936.

A . Mmm- hmm .

Q . The a c t ual bu i l d i ng of t he J Y wa s i t se l f , i t seems to me , a l mo s t a celebra t i on

and a t rue ach i eveme n t w i t h i n . . . w i th i n t he J ew i s h commun i ty .

A .

Q.

A .

Yes .

And t he C h r i s t i an commun i ty , t he re we re con t r i but i on s made by non-Jews as

wel l to the . . . .

Gene ra ] cha i rman o f tha t 1 935 d r i ve wa s Emme t F i nukan , I Lm q u i te s u re , a

I n te rv i ew w i th M r . He rman Sa rachan Page 1 3

A . ( Con t i n ued ) banke r . O t he r non-Jews we re i nvo l ved i n va r i ous a ct i v i t i e s ,

v i ce-cha i rmen . An d t he J ew who wa s mos t p rom i nen t wa s a man by the n ame of

So l Heuman , who wa s t he head of a c l oth i ng factory . So l Heuman Thomp son .

Q . Why d i d n on - J ews t a ke s uch a n i n te re s t i n th i s ?

A . The on l y way I ca n exp l a i n i t t o you i s t ha t t he re 1 s . • . the re1s a l wa y s been

by i n l a rge a good r e l a t i on s h i p between t he J ews and t he non- J ews i n t h i s

commun i ty . I t a l so wa s undou bted l y p a r t o f . . . due t o the fact t h a t t hose

who were l ea de r s , l i ke Sol Heuma n a n d S i mon S te i n , who wa s t he head of S te i n

B l ock and l a te r Fa s h i on Pa r k , whose con ta c t s w i t h t he non'"'J ews were ve ry c l ose .

So i t c ou l d have been t he i r i nterest t ha t bro ug h t i n non -Jews. B u t I repea t

there ' s been eve r s i nce I can reca l l a good re l a t i on s h i p be tween the commun i t i es .

Q . Th i s wa s p e r ha p s you r f i rst . . . . t he f i r s t t i me you rea l l y had c l ose work i ng

re l a t i on s w i t h t he J ew . . . Ge rman Jew i s h segmen t of the Jewi s h commun i ty ?

D i d you eve r . . . ?

A . Oh , wa i t a m i n u te .

Q. Yes .

A . I was a Sunda y s c hoo 1 teacher i n B 1 r i t h Kodes h .

Q. Good . I wan ted to a s k you a bo u t tha t . I n fac t when . . . when d i d you beg i n ?

A . I n the 1 92 0 ' s .

Q. And how l on g d i d you teach a t B ' r i t h Kode s h ?

A . I wa sn ' t there s o l on g . . •

Q. OK .

A . U n t i l we orga n i zed a S unday schoo l i n m y own Leopo l d S t reet S hu l , and I

became the p r i nc i p l e a nd the head and the o r g an i ze r and eve ryth i ng e l se .

Q . The B ' r i t h Kodesh wa s a Reform temp l e . How d i d you become i nvo l ved f i rs t ,

i n i t i a l l y , w i t h t h i s . . . w i th th i s g roup ?

A . l '·m not s o . . . I be l i eve tha t I wa s a s.ked i .f 1. wou l d teach t he re . . And s i n ce

I n te rv i ew w i t h M r . He rma n Sa rachan Page 1 4

A . ( Con t i n ued ) i t mean t a few d o l l a rs , and d o l l a rs we re very p rec i ou s

beca u s e my . my fa t he r wa s wo r k i ng for n i ne do l l a rs a wee k , 60 hou r s a

wee k , wh i ch d i dn ' t g i ve u s ve ry much money . So I th i n k the few do l l a rs mean t

someth i ng . On t he o t he r han d , I enj oyed t he wor k an d when the h i g h schoo l

depa rtmen t wa s organ i zed my brothe r taught t he h i g hes t c l a s s i n compa ra t i ve

re l i g i on s a nd I ta ught t he next c l a ss , the l ow , e l even th g ra de , i n the h i s tory

of J ew i sh coun t ry .

Q . B ' r i th Kodes h wa s both Reform and had a l a rge Ge rman J ew i s h con g reg a t i on . D i d

y ou fee l ou t of p l a ce beca u s e of you r own backg round i n B ' , r i t h Kode s h ?

A . We l l , I d i dn ' t a t tend s e rv i ces . I n so fa r as my c l a s s i s con cerned I wa s a

tea c he r .

Q . So tha t there wa s . . .

A . Oh , you wan t a l i t t l e i nc i de n t ? When I wa s s t i l l tea ch i ng one of the l owe r

c l a s ses , before the h i gh schoo l depa r tmen t wa s o rg an i zed , Pa l es t i ne was t hen

ve ry much on t he map . A l l of t h i s bu s i n e s s of t ry i ng to b r i ng i mm i g ran t s

t he re on t he B r i t i s h man d a t e . A n d many Heb rew words we re be i ng ban d i ed a bou t .

So I got t he br i l l i ant i dea tha t I ' d g i ve t he c h i l d ren i n my c l a s s , I t h i n k

had the f i fth g ra d e , wha t ten , e l even yea r o l d s ? . . . a few Heb rew word s .

Next t h i ng I knew t he p r i nc i p l e ca l l ed me i n . The phone has been r i ng i ng ,

t he pa re n t s a re a l 1 exc i ted . Wha t ' s the i dea of s ta r t i ng to teach Heb rew?

You 1 ve got ta c u t i t ou t . And tha t wa s t he f i r s t and the l as t t i me� Of cou r se

yea r s l a t e r t ha t became pa rt of the i r c u r r i c u l um , Hebrew .

Q. B u t you d i d c u t i t ou t ?

A . Oh , I c u t i t ou t then . Afte r a 1 1 , I d i d n 1 t wa n t to c a u se a r umpus w i t h the

pa ren t s . The c h i l d ren came and sa i d that we l ea rned tha t 1 1 s ha l om1 1 mea n s

" he l l o . " Oh , t e r r i b l e .

Q . So t h a t wa s one i nc i de n t of t h i s con t ra s t ?

I n te rv i ew w i t h Mr . H e rman Sa rachan Page 1 5

A . One i nc i den t . And t he only i nc i de n t s that I can recall . Unless i t wa s alwa y s .

' cou rse lower cla ss i t wa s B i bl i cal h i story , B i bl i cal h i s to ry . H i g h s chool

cla s s , of cou rse , It was t he J ew i s h . . . a n d la rgely , a s I say , a lec t u re

cou rse , wh i c h I neve r 1 i ked .. I never l i ked to lec t u re , bu t i t had to be

beca u s e i f I a s s i gn t hem a rea d i ng none of t hem d i d i t . So t he only way

c ould get i t a c ros s wa s to t al k to t hem a n d t hen a s k que s t i on s .

Q. I bel i eve t ha t bot h Ra bb i Wolfe a n d then Ra bb i Bern s te i n we re t he lead e r s

A .

of t he B ' r i t h Kode s h synagog ue . Do you have any recollect i oh s o f e i t he r one

of these r a bb i s ?

We 1 1 , I . I have t he h i ghest rega rd fo r t hem . W i th Ra bb i Berns te i n I wa s

ve ry clo s e . And , a s a ma t te r of fac t , for t he la s t yea r s of t he l i fe of

Congrega tton Bet h I s ra el , eac h yea r Rabb i Bernste i n broug ht h i s g ra d u a t i ng

cla s s for a ses s i on on S un d ay i n Be th I s rael becau s e he wan ted them , f i r s t of

all , to see wha t an O r t hodox synagogue was l i ke and also to have t hem have me

tell them some t h i n g of t he h i s tory of Beth I s rael wh i le he , for h i s p a r t , t old

t hem some t h i ng of t he h i s tory of t he J ew i s h commun i ty . And t h a t became a n

a n n ual even t .

Q . Tha t wor ked ou t ve ry well ?

A . V e r y well , y e s . As a mat te r o f f a c t t he la s t yea r t hey we re s upposed to ma ke

a telev i s i on record of i t , but we neve r saw i t . So , Ra bb i Bern s te i n t r i ed

to f ollow- up and couldn't get a ny news , so i t wa s g radually d ropped .

Q . Wha t k i n d of record wa s t h i s ?

A . I t wa s s upposed t o be a t ape o f Ra bb i Be rn s te i n�s t al k , my tal k , a s a record

of Beth I s rael . B u t , we n eve r saw i t .

� So you don � t know i f i t ex i s ts today ?

A� P robably doesn�t for wha tever rea son , t hey p robably maybe d i dn't have

I n t e rv i ew w i t h Mr. He rman Sa rac han Page 1 6

A. (Con t i nued ) t he money to p u t i t i n s ha pe . B u t t ha t s hows how c l ose I

wor ked w i t h Ra bb i Be rnste i n , how c l ose he wa s w i t h me.

Q. An d w hen you became i nvol ved i n t he J Y aga i n t here was a m i xt u re of J ews

w i t h i n t h i s p r oj ec t , but you fe l t not o ut s i de , a pa rt. . . 7

A. We l l , I had to g i ve u p .. ... I had to g i ve up my S unday schoo l wor k bec a u se

S u n day wa s a ve ry busy day a t . . . a t t he J Y. So t ha t t ha t wa s when I d i s­

con t i n ued teac h i ng a t B 1 ·r i th Kod e s h.

Q. You we re a s ked to come j o i n t he peop l e a t t he J Y , to he l p deve l op t ha t p rog ram ?

A. I . . . was . . . yea , became a member of t he s t a ff.

Q. R i g h t. I mea n t hey a sked you to become a p a r t of th i s , of t h i s s ta ff ?

A. . Yes.

Q. Do you remembe r t he i mpact of t he Dep res s i on , both on t he c l ot h i ng b u s i ne s s

a nd , of cou r s e , you men t i oned i t s re l a t i on s h i p t o t he J Y, i t a c t ua l l y he l d u p

t he deve l opmen t o f t hat.

A. We l l , I know t ha t the c l oth i ng i nd u s t ry , t he ove rhead s t a f f wa s red u ced because

bu s i n e s s was not very good , t ha t I know .

Q . I t d i dnlt seem to a ffec t you pe r sona l l y i n a n y s i gn i f i can t way ?

A. I was on e of t hose t ha t wa s sepa ra ted f rom t he work.

Q. Tha t wa s beca u s e of t he Dep re s s i on ?

A. Because of t he Dep re s s i on.

Q. An d you had to t h i n k a bout get t i ng i n to some t h i ng e l se ? Othe rw i se you m i g h t

have cont i nued w i th t ha t l i ne o f bu s i ne s s ?

A. l t 1 s poss i b l e becau s e I had a ve ry f i ne r e l a t i on s h i p w i th the H i c keys and

the F r eeman s. As a ma t t e r o f fac t , when I f i rst wen t there t he or i g i na l

F r eema n , J acob L . F reema n , wheneve r he 1 d see me , he 1·d say we 1 I , how do you

enj oy t h i s wor k a s aga i n s t teach i ng i n co l l ege? I d i d. I wa s ve ry . . . very

c ha l l en g i ng and enj oya b l e wor k�

I n te rv i ew w i t h M r . He rman Sa rachan Page I 7

Q. Let me a sk you a bout you r expe r i ence.

END OF TAP E 1 , S I DE A ( I n t e rv i ew I )

I n te rv i ew w i t h MR . H E RMAN SARACHAN J un e 1 5 , 1 97 6 B y Denn i s K l e i n

I n te rv lew Iape 1 S·i de B

Q. Th i s i s Denn i s K l e i n. We� re ta l k i ng w i t h M r� Sa rachan� And t his i s Tape 1 ,

S i de B . You men t i on tha t . .. . we we re j us t ta l k i ng a bout you r i nvo l vemen t i n

t he J Y a s a membe rs h i p d i recto r . Let me a s k you t h i s q ue s t i on spec i f i ca l l y .

D i d you f i nd t he i n terests of t he J ew i s h commun i ty to be ve ry h i g h ? F rom t he

momen t you got i nvo l ved d i d you f i nd you r ta s k i n ma i n ta i n i ng a v i bra n t

mem be rs h i p to be d i ff i c u l t ? Or does t ha t f l ow p r etty e a s i l y?

A . I t h i n k t ha t I had a ve ry g ood re l a t i on s h i p w i t h the membe r s . And as p roof ,

i f I ma y be so bo l d , to t h i s day eve ry so of ten one of t hose p re sen t membe r s

when h e mee t s m e say s , boy , how I w i s h you we re s t i I I t h e r e a t the J ewi sh

Commun i ty Cen te r . And t hey . . . t hey don ' t h ave to s ay i t . I f one s a i d i t ,

I ' d t h i n k wei I may be he wan t s to be n i ce to me . B u t t ha t ha s come f rom a

n umber of peop l e whom I meet who n ow go t he r e , a re membe r s , p l ay han d ba l l o r

g o for a sw i m o r wha teve r .

Q. We re t hey t a l k i n g a bout t he way you wen t a bo u t . . . ?

A . They we re ta l k i ng a bout t he re l a t i on s h i p wh i ch t hey fe l t wa s a wa rm re l a t i on s h i p

an d on e i n to .. .. .. in which i f t hey had a n y d i ff i cu l t i es t hey had a hear i ng .

I n te rv i ew wi u h M r . He rman Sa rac ha n Page 1 8

A . ( Con t i n ued ) Now I can • �·t say a n y t h i ng a bout wha t t he re l a t i on s h i p i s now

bec a u se I am n o t i n any way , shape o r manne r .. . . ma nner connec ted w i t h i t

excep t t ha t I am a k i nd of a n honora ry membe r , I g ues s , get a J ew i s h ca rd

eve ry s i ng l e yea r s i nce I ret i red .

Q. You sa i d t ha t t hey had a hea r i ng , wh i ch i s to say t ha t c omp l a i n t s we re made ?

A . 'I When comp l a i n t s we re made a n d t hey came t o me I u s ual l y d i d wha teve r I fe l t

wa s necessa ry or i f i t wa s a c a se of go i ng to the exec u t i ve o r to anot he r

depar tmen t hea d , I wou l d fol l ow t h roug h .

Q. D i d t he . . . d i d t he wa r , t he second wa r , a f fect you r membe r s h i p d r i ves ?

A . I t d i d bot he r some , of cou r se , tca u se ma ny men we re awa y .

Q. I g ue s s I a s k t h i s bec a u se a t t h i s po i n t t he re we re so many Jews com i ng

f rom . . • f r om E u rope , t he Jews of t he Ho l oc a ust , and we re severa l se t t l ed

i n Rocheste r . D i d you ma ke a n y s pec i a l a ppea l to t he se peop l e ?

A . They began t o come rea l l y when I wa s ou t s o t h a t I had ve ry l i t t l e con t a c t

w i t h t hem .

Q. D i dn ' t t hey come i n l i . ke t he l a te t h i r t i e s ?

A . We d i d have , I g ues s t hey st i l l have , wha t we c a l l a F r iend sh i p C l ub , a c l u b

fo r o l d ste rs . An d t h a t wa s ve ry succes s fu l . And t ha t i ncluded ve ry ma ny of

these new i mm i g ran t s .

Q. So t he re wa s a s pec i f i c effort to a p pea l to t he se peop l e ?

A . Yes .

Q. And how d i d t ha t wor k? D i d t he se peop l e acce p t t ha t ? They l ooked for some

k i n d of c ommun i ty i n t h i s . • . ?

A . I wou l d s ay s o . Yes .

Q. So t h a t seemed to go .

A . Yes .

I n t e rv i ew w i th M r . H e rman Sa rachan Page 1 9

Q. And a f t e r t he second wa r , aga i n , t he re wa s con t i n ua l i n f l ux of J ews i n to

t h i s a r ea ?

A . Yea .

Q. Tha t c on t i n ued . Le t�s a s k a ser i es of q u es t i on s now a bout you r i nvo l vemen t

i n t he O r t hodox J ew i s h commun i ty . Th i s goes ba c k to you r i n vo l vemen t i n t he

A .

Leo . . Leopo l d S t ree t S hu ] . Wa s i t you r f am i l y . . . we re . . . we re t hey

i nvo l ved i n t he shu ] a s we l l ?

My f a t he r - i n- J aw. When . . . a s soon a s we we re ma r r i ed .

my fa t her h ad a l r eady l ef t . B u t we we re ma r r i ed i n 1 92 1 .

a t tend i ng t he Leopo l d St reet S hu l w i t h my fa t he r- i n� J aw �

They , o f cou r se . . .

I i mmed i a te l y began

And he wa s t he one

t ha t e ncou raged me to become act i ve . He wa s the on e t ha t encou raged me to

s t a r t a S unday s c hoo l . And t hen , s i nce we had no ra bb i 1 he wa s t he one t h a t

s ugge s t ed t h a t I s hou l d a s s ume , a s a l a yma n , some of t h e f un c t i on s . L i ke

d e l i ve r i n g t he se rmon s on t he h i g h ho l i days , wor k of t ha t sor t , by p a r t i c i pa t i ng

i n t he chan t i ng of t he se rv i ces . And so t h a t began i t . I t kept r i g ht on a l l

t hese decad es .

Q. As a c h i l d you we re not a p a r t of a synagog u e ?

A . A s a c h i l d I wen t w i t h m y fa t he r t o a n other synagog ue .

Q. Wh i c h . . wh i ch wa s t h i s ?

A . Tha t wa s one c a l l ed Vava ko l e l , wh i ch mea n s a un i ve r sa l cong rega t i on , o r a

con g reg a t i on o f many g roup s . An d tha t wa s on Ha nove r S t ree t , t ha t 1 s t he on e

of wh i ch he wa s a membe r .

Q. An d t h i s wa s O r t hodox ?

A . Th i s wa s a l so O r t hodox . An d Leopo l d S t reet wa s O r t hodox . Let m e s a y tha t a s

t he yea rs went on we g ra d ua l l y became c l oser to Conse rva t i ve beca use d u r i ng the

l a s t e i g ht or ten yea r s t he women wou l d s i t w i t h t he men i n s tead of go i ng

u p s t a i r s to t he ba l cony� And so t h a t wh i l e ou r se rv i ce wa s s t i l l O r t hodox ,

I n t e r v i ew w i th M r . a n d M r s. He rman S a r a c han Page 20

A . ( C on t i n ued ) we mad e ce r ta i n , s ha l l I say c onces s i on s o r mod i f i ca t i on s ?

O u r mem be r s who J i ved fa r awa y wou l d d r i ve , a n d i n s tead o f pa r k i ng two b l ocks

awa y and wa l k i n g ove r , t hey d i dn ' t hes i ta t e to pa r t r i g ht n ea r by . I mea n ,

t ha t wa s t he adj u stment t o modern day l i v i ng .

Q. Let me p i c k up on . . . on a word you men t i oned . before . You men t i oned t ha t

t he re ,we re some conces s i on s made . We re t he re , i n fac t , peop l e objec t i ng to

t he way ser v i ces we re be i n g he l d , and for t ha t rea s on some conces s i on s had to

be mad e ?

A . We l l , J e t m e be . . . t ry to remember how i t a l l s ta rted .. We h a d some o l d

women who came for t he h i g h ho l i da y s a nd for a t l ea s t t hree other days of the

yea r when memor i a l p rayer s a re s a i d for t he decea sed.

up t he h i g h s t ep s , , i t' s q u i te a b u rden . S o , we sa i d ..

The se o l d women wa l k

I s a i d , come i n and

s i t i n the b ack rows the re . We l l , t ha t wa s a s ta r t . And nobody seemed to

obj ect to i t . And t hen I don ' t know how many mo re yea r s p a s sed , one , two ,

t hree. And a woma n wou l d c ome i n and may be s i t w i t h he r h u s band somewhe re i n

t he rea r , nobody obj ected . And t hen t he l a s t yea r s , l a s t ha l f dozen yea r s ,

i t wa s q u i te oommon for men to come i n t he f ron t and s i t w i th t he i r w i ve s ,

a n d t he i r c h i 1 d ren i f t hey had a n y , and eve ryone t ha t wa s a mem ber t ha t came

accep ted i t . You wou l d get for t he h i g h ho l i days , you wou l d get a very g ood

t u rn o u t . Pe rha p s one rea son why we got t he g ood t u rn out wa s beca u se we ,

u n,ll i ke t he o t her O r t hodox con g r ega t i on s o r a n y cong rega t i on , we d i d not se l l

sea t s , t he sea ts we re f re e . Then how d i d we ex i s t ? On t he Day of Atonemen t ,

on Yom K i ppu r , we made a n a ppea l for vo l un t a ry con t r i bu t i on s . And a s we had

no g rea t exp en s e s , s i nce we ha d no ra bb i , we had no sextan t . My brother� i n ­

l aw wou l d come eve ry F r i da y to sweep o u t t he p l ace a n d get i t i n good s ha pe ,

a n d wou l d , a c t i ng as a ra bb i , a ccep t . For t he h i g h ho l i days we b roug h t a

a cantor f rom New Yo r k C i ty, a ve ry f i ne young ra bb i . Tha t wa s o u r so l e

I n terv i ew w i t h M r . He rman Sa rachan Page 2 1

A . (Con t i n ued ) expen s e , o u t s i de of cou r se of hea t , l i g ht s , the o r d i na ry

expenses .

Q. Le t me go bac k for a second . You sa i d when t he women i n t he beg i nn i ng cou l d

not c l i m b these s ta i rs that you sa i d you were part of t h i s , one of t he peop l e

say i ng , OK, g o a head , s i t down i n t he bac k . B u t I ca n 1· t i mag i ne t ha t t he

o l d er peop l e , t he . . . t he peop l e who we re ve ry t rad i t i ona l i n t he i r . i n

t he i r a p p roa c h tha t t hey wou l d not o bj e c t . I t wou l d be d i ff i cu l t for me to

i mag i ne the re wa s n 1 t some k i nd of exp res s i on of .

A . N eve r had a n y . Now , I c a n 1 t sa y may be one , two , o r three of t he o 1 d - t i mers

wen t e l sewhe re , I can 1 · t say . But wa s not awa re .

Q. So t h e re wa s a sense of un i ty on . .. .. on t he . . . ?

A . Y e s . They a ccepted i t , a nd nobody ra i sed a n y q u e s t i on s . . J.\nd a s I say , on

Yom K i p p u r we made t he a ppea l for vo l u n t a ry con t r i bu t i on s , we ra i sed a coup l e

of t housand d o l l a rs , that ca r r i ed u s t h roug h .

Q. Ano t her t h i ng have a d i ff i c u l t t i me w i t h t ha t a shu ] wou l d not have a ra bb i ,

I mean a . . . a f u l l rabb i . When you . . . when you became i nvo l ved i n 1 92 1

t hey a s ked yo u to se rve a s a J ay r a bb i .

A . We l l a t t ha t t i me we had . . . t he re wa s a ra bb i i n t he commun i ty by t he name

of Ra b b i Sadowsky tha t wa s supposed to be the ra bb i for seve ral commun i t i es .

An d we pa i d a ve ry mode s t s um a s p a r t of h i s i ncome . Then a s the yea r s wen t

on he wou l d come to us on l y I t h i n k on Yom K i pp u r . And when he p a s sed away

we had n o ra bb i .

Q. When d i d he pa s s awa y ? Do you remembe r ? I s i t a f te r you became i n vo l ved ?

A . Oh , a l ong t i me a ft e r . I don ' t know i f I got i t ma r ked he re o r not .

Q. Wha t do you have . . . Cou l d you d esc r i be wha t you have before you ?

A . Th i s i s the h i s to ry o f Cong reg a t i on Beth I s ra e l .

Q. You wrote t h a t?

I n te rv i ew w i th M r . H e rman Sa rachan

A . Yea .

Q. Wa s i t eve r p u bl i s hed ?

A . No .

Q. Why d i d you wr i te t ha t h i story?

Page 2 2

A . Beca u s e I . . I t h i n k or i g i nally beca u se I wan ted t o have fac t s so t h a t I

could tal k to t he g r oup . I told you , t hose S unday s c hool c h i ld ren . And t hen

when I began I became i n t e re s ted , so t ha t i t i s much more complete . An d

s i nce t hen I ' ve g i ven t h i s before ig roup s a n umber of t i mes .

Q. Those a r e you r lec t u re notes ?

A . Yea . I ' m j us t look i ng to see i f I have b y c ha n ce tell s when Ra bb i S adows ky

d i ed . I d on ' t t h i n k l 1 ve got i t ma r ked when he d i ed. He 1 s been gone for

many , many yea rs .

Q. I t h i n k we can f i nd t hat ou t a c t u ally .

A . Ye s , p ro ba bly Ra bb i Rosen berg ha s t ha t i n h i s book.

Q. I t h i n k you ' re r i g h t . Why we re you a sked to be t he lay ra bb i ? Why n o t somebody

el s e ?

A. g ue s s i t j u s t ha ppened . My father- i n -law . . . f a t h e r- i n-law sugges ted t ha t

d o i t , a n d I d i d .

Q. How la rge wa s t he s h ul a t t h i s . . . a t t h i s t i me ?

A . Ou r membe r s h i p was neve r more t ha n 1 00 . U s ually under 1 00 . B u t o n t he h i g h

hol i days we ' d get the place f ull , I told you . We ' ·d hold n o .. no sal e of

sea t s , no c ollec t i on s of any k i n d except fo r t he one a ppeal , wh i ch i s en t i rely

volun ta ry .

Q. There wa s somet h i ng i n today ' s pape r , I don '· t know i f you saw t h i s , about the

Leo . . . Leopo 1 d S t r ee t . . .

A . I was s hown t h i s . We v i s i ted a n a un t of my w i fe ' ·s who ha d j us t re t u rned f rom

Flo r i da and she sa i d you r s h u ] i s aga i n i n t he news , and s o s he gave me t he

/

I n te rv i ew w i t h M r . He rma n Sa rachan Pag e 23

A .

Q.

A .

Q.

( C on t i nued ) a rt i c l e . When we we re get t i ng ready to l ea v e , we ma de a l l

p l a n s fo r t he s h u l t o be torn down , ' ca use t h a t ' s wha t ' s s u pposed to happen

i n O r thodox synago g ue i f i t 1 s a bandoned . Then a l on g came a g roup of co l ored

peop l e , t hey ca l l ed up , t hey sa i d they wanted to see me . And I met t hem .

They came i n , men and women , we l l - d re s sed , h i g h l y i nte l l i g en t , made a good

i mp re s s i on on me . And t hey sa i d t ha t t hey a re Jews , t he i r head q ua r te r s a re

Ar l i ng ton , V i rg i n i a . New . . . you m i g ht ca l l t hem conve r t s , I don ' t know i f

t hey wen t a n d c on ve rted o r not , j u s t became Jews . And t hey wou l d l i ke to

ta.ke ove r ou r synagog u e .

Wha t yea r wa s t h i s , do you know?

Th i s wa s i n 1 963 . We l l , a s a ma t t e r of fact�, for t he f i r s t tLme i n m0Lif_e '...__.-�� ..

I t h i n k I r ea l l y ma de enem i es beca u se some of o u r membe r s , one i n pat.t i cu l a r ,

fe l t t ha t we s hou l d neve r have a l l owed t hem to do t ha t . B u t , a t any ra te ,

a r ra ngemen t s we re made . I n t he mean t i me we h a d ama l gama ted w i th .. . . j o i n ed

w i th t h i s Eas t Aven ue temp l e so t h a t t hey , o r t he i r p re s i d en t , made t he

f i na n c i a l a r rangemen t s w i th t h i s g roup . And t hey kep t up the i r mo r tgage

paymen t s reg u l a r l y , ' ca use t hey inqu i red on l y a mon t h or so ago. And t h i s

a r t i c l e s ta tes t ha t t hey a re g row i ng c on cern . Now one of t he t h i ng s t ha t has

bot hered , a nd i f you read t he a r t i c l e , t hey have t h i s p a r t . � � and the

Ch r i s t i a n sa i nt s , and that they . . . ma ny of ou r membe r s fee l t ha t we we re

t u r n i ng i t ove r to a C hr i s t i an g roup tha t t r i es to p a s s of f as J ews i n ord e r

to buy t he p l a ce . B u t I d i d n ' t be l i eve i t , a n d I don 1 t be l i eve i t s t i l l tod a y .

I fee l perfec t l y con ten t hav i ng done wha t I d i d , even t houg h , a s I say , I

made the f i rs t t i me i n my l i fe , I t h i n k , some enem i e s .

We re you . we re you respon s i b l e for t h i s d ec i s i on ?

A . We l l , you see there 1 s a pecu l i a r t h i ng a bout t h i s . The members vote t o

tea r i t down , ma t t e r o f fac t we g o t an es t i ma te a t wha t i t w i l l cos t u s t o

I n te rv i ew w i t h M r . a nd M r s . Herma n Sa rac ha n P a g e 24

A . ( Con t i n ued ) tea r i t down . B u t when t hey came a l ong the man who had

been p r e s i den t , n ow I wou l dn 1 � t a ccept t he p r e s i dency , I had enough w i t h wha t

I wa s do i ng , but I was t he sec reta ry . S o , s i nce we had comb i ned w i t h a new

temp l e techn i ca l l y a l l of o u r a s s e t s were pa r t of - t ha t temp l e , you see? So

on t ha t ba s i s , and w i t h my con sent i f you w i l l Lca use i f

oppos ed a s my w i fe and her brot he r we re a n d s t i l l a re . .

had been a s s t rong l y

wha t we 1 d have

d on e . . . excuse me . . So t h a t wa s how t h a t came a bou t tha t . . . t h a t I ,

i n a c e r t a i n sen se , wa s t he person t ha t a pp rov�d beca u se of my new connec t i on

a s a v i ce-p r es i den t of t he new temp l e a n d t he fact that ou r .

ama l gama ted a l l t he a s sets techn i ca l l y became p a r t of i t .

. when we

Q. Wha t do you make o f the fact t ha t t hey u se t he name 1 1 C h r i s t' 1 i n t he i r . . .. 1

A . Bec au se . . . t hey exp l a i n ed i t t ha t . . . t ha t t hey l ef t t he name C h r i s t i an

Sa i n t s beca u s e t hey wa n ted to a t t r a c t t he .. . . t hose who we re c hang i ng ove r

Q.

A .

a n d yet had . . had been C h r i st i an , I a s s ume , and ha d t h a t fee l i ng a bout

C h r i st i an Sa i n t s and J e s u s t o t hem wa s a l so a sa i n t and a p rophet , b u t not

t he Mes s i a h . And . and t he i r ta l k i ng . and t hey 1 · re ta l k i ng now of

c hang i ng t he name a n d om i t t i n g t ha t C h r i s t i a n .

So a s fa r a s you 1 re c oncerned , t h i s i s a bona f i de J ew i s h g ro u p ?

Exa c t l y . As ye t , so far a s I know i t ha s not i n any way , s hape , o r man n e r

been ama l gama ted i nto t he J ew i s h commun i ty .

Q. I know t ha t Ra bb i J u dea M i l l e r of B 1 r i th Kodesh wa s q uoted i n an a rt i c l e .. .. .

A . Y e s .

Q . deny i ng out o f comp l e te l y t h a t t hey we re a n y pa r t of t he Jew i s h commun i ty .

A .

So t here i s def i n i t e .

As s a y , t he re i s n o c onnect i on . And t he i r spokesman s t a tes t ha t he hopes

t ha t i n t i me t hey wi 1 1 a l l ow t hem, e s pec i a l l y , I a s sume , to start w i . th t he

change t ha t n ame a nd no l onger have t ha t C hr i s t i an ove r ton e .

I n t e rv i ew w i th M r . He rma n Sa rac ha n

Q. Have you ever a ttended a hy of the i r s e rv i ces ?

A . I haven ' t . The rea s on for that i s a ve ry good one . N umb e r one ,

Page 2 5

n o l on g e r

do much d r i v i ng . N umbe r two , I don ' t d r i ve on t he S a b ba t h , i t ' s a ma t te r of

p r i nc i p l e , bu t r i d e . So t ha t t he temp l e i s q u i te a way s awa y , and I go t o

s e rv i ces every F r i day even i n g , eve ry Sa t u rday morn i h g and eve ry Sunday morn i h g.

And Sunday morn i ng I do d r i ve . l '·m p i c ked up , s o t ha t I wou l d have to g o Oh

a Sunda y . And we have s e rv i ce on S unda y , you s ee ? So t ha t I ' ve neve r been .

One of o u r membe r s ha s sa i d a ny n umber of t i mes he ' 1 1 s top down somet i me and

see wha t t he i r serv i ce i s l i ke , but he ha s n ' t done i t yet .

Q. I wonder i f . . . I wonder i f a wh i te pe rson wou I d fee 1 ou t of p I ace down

t he re?

A . I t ' s pos s i b l e.

Q. I ' m c u r i o u s my se l f to go ove r t he re .

A . I f you do

Q. w i l l .

hope you ' 1 1 l et me know wha t you r i mp r e s s i on s a re .

A . What you r react i on s we re . When I met w i t h t hem , and I met w i t h t hem on two

occa s i ons , a n d t he s econd t i me a n umbe r of other members came . I wa s deep l y

i mp re ssed w i t h t hem , h i g h l y i n te l l i g en t , c u l t u red , we l l �d re s s ed g roup of men

a nd women .

Q. To my know l edge I don ' t . . . of cou r se Ra b b i M i l l e r men t i ohed t ha t a l a rge

segmen t of J ewry i s b l ac k beca u se o f t he Af r i can and Med i t t e r ranean popu l a t i on .

A . Yes .

Q. B u t to my knowl edge I don ' t th i n k t he re a re . . . a re any b l a c k Ame r i ca n b l a c k

J ew i sh commun i t i es ? I d on '· t know of a n y ou ts i de o f Roc he s te r , d o you ?

A . Oh , yes . The . • . t he i r hea d q ua rters i s i n Ar l i ng ton , V i rg i n i a of t h i s g ro up .

And t hey have a n umber . . . . a numbe r of g roups o r cong rega t i oh s or wha teve r

t hey have , but I d on ' t know how ma ny .

I n te rv i ew w i t h M r . He rman Sa rachan Page 2 6

Q. won d e r why the .. . . o r do t hey i ns i s t on be i ng b l a c k ? I s i t . . . i s i t

a sep a ra t i s t b l ac k sep a ra t i s t e l emen t to th i s ?

A . t h i n k i t p robab l y i s j u s t a g roup o f b l acks who , fo r whateve r rea son , fe l t

t h a t J uda i sm was wha t i s t he fa i th t h a t appea l s to t hem . And so s ta r ted , a s

I s ay i n Ar l i ng ton , V i rg i n i a , wh i ch i s t he headqua r te r s , a nd i t sp read t o o t he r

p l aces . Beca u se ou r p res i dent con t ac t ed Ar l i ng ton , V i rg i n i a a n d s u re enough

t hey have headqua r te r s t he re .

Q. J u s t to c heck to see i f . . .

A . Yes .

Q. i t wa s .

A . Tha t ' s r i g h t . A n d t he s e peop l e do b u y f rom a J ew i s h bookse l l e r a n d se l l e r

o f re l i g i ous a r t i c l es by t he u s ua l pa raphe rna l i a t h a t g oes w i t h p raye r s a n d

so for t h .

Q. I f I s t a r ted pay i ng d ues t o t he Leopo l d St reet Shu l do you th i n k I wou l d be

a ccep ted ? I 'm wonde r i ng .

A . The n:!s no . . . we n eve r . . . we n eve r . . . been down i f tha t'· s wha t you mean .

Q. We l l , I ' m c u r i ou s . B u t t ha t'·' s an ama z i ng s to ry . I d i dn '' t know a n yt h i ng a bo u t

th i s g roup . When y o u we re a c t i ve a s a l a y ra bb i , how l ong . � . f i r s t of a l l ,

how l ong d i d t h i s l a s t t hen why d i d t h i s c hange?

A . La s ted r i g ht unt i l we c l osed t he .

con t i n ued t he s ame serv i ces here .

Q . No rabb i s ucceeded S adowsky ?

A . No .

. we c l osed the cong rega t i on . And I ' ve

Q. Af te r he pa s sed eria y , t he va r i ou s s hu l s . . .

A . Yea , t h e shu l s , many o f t hem , have the i r r a bb i s , b u t Leopo l d S t ree t had not

had a rabb i a nd Sadows ky wa s on l y a pa r t- t i me r a bb i .

Q. Let me a s k you a bout t he ama l gama t i on of t he s h u l w i t h Hamed res h . Wha t . . .

I n te rv i ew w i t h M r . He rman Sa rachan Page 2 7

Q. ( Con t i nued ) d i d t ha t happen . • . when d i d t ha t occ u r ? Do you reca l l ?

A . You mea n our p resent . . . ?

Q. The ama l gama t i on w i th . . . t he two temp l es became one and i s now Hamed res h ?

I s tha t . . .

A . Bet h . . . Bet h . . . i t 1 s Temp l e Beth Hamed res h-Be t h I s rae l . Tha t came i n

1 973 when we moved ove r he re , a nd t ha t . . . t he re wa s n o l eadersh i p a n ymore .

So we d i scon t i n ued t he cong rega t i on on the Deopo l d , a n d a s I say , i n t he

mean t i me t hey took i t ove r . And t he ama l gama t i on occu r red i n th i s man n e r . We

wan ted t he n ame Beth I s ra e l perpetua ted . So we wen t to two other con g rega t i on s

and sa i d we wou l d l i ke t o j o i n w i t h you , i f y o u w i l l a t tach the name Be t h

I s rae l to y ou r p re sen t . We l l , one g roup s a i d oh , n o can t t change o u r n ame ,

but we 1 l l p u t you r name on a you t h room tha t we 1 re g onna have . The o t he r

g roup s a i d we l l , we 1 1 1 ma ke you a n a ff i l i a te , a ff i l i a te Be t h I s rae l . B u t ,

we w i l l p u t i n to t he by- J aws t ha t you w i 1 1 have , n o ma tte r how many of you

ca me ove r , howeve r I sa i d to t hem ve ry few w i l l come ove r and t u rn out tha t way ,

1 cause they we re a l l membe r s of ot he r temp l es anyways t he l as t yea r s . On l y

twen ty votes , no ma t te r how many of you come ove r , and a l so that you w i l l

make n o changes i n t he r i t ua l . And i t seems to me one other p rov i s i on . We

d i dn 1 t l i ke t hat k i nd of p r ov i s i on , even t hough I sa i d t he re 1 d be on l y a few

t ha t wou l d c ome ove r . B u t we d i dn 1 t wan t t o be a second c l as s c i t i zen . B u t

we m e t w i t h t he T r u s t ees o f Temp l e Bet h Hamed r e s h , t hey s a i d s u re we 1 l l c hange

o u r n ame to Temp l e Beth Hamed resh-Beth I s rae l , and wha teve r a s s e t s you may

have t ha t y ou w i l l w i sh to t u rn ove r to u s , you know , the p ra ye r books a n d

o t he r r e l i g i o u s books , re l i g i ou s a rt i c l es , Tora h s and so forth , w i l l become

pa rt of t he j o i n t p roj ect . So , t ha t wa s t he a n swe r .

Q. The . . . t he s hu ] i t se l f c l osed i n 1 963 or fou r you men t i oned a n d th i s wa s

con so l i da ted w i t h Bet h . , .

I n te rv i ew wi t h M r . He rman Sa rac ha n

A . Bet h Hamed res h .

Q. Beth .. . .

A . Temp l e Bet h Hamed re sh ..

Q . . . . Hamed r e s h i n 1 973 o r 1 974?

A . Wa i t a m i n u te . The s h u ] c l osed i n 1 97 3 .

Q. O h .

A . Yea , s u re.

Q. OK .

A . Yea .

Page 2 8

Q. We l l , t h e re we re not many member s i n t he s hu l a t t h i s t i me 1 i s. t ha t r i.g h t ?

A . Yes , we h a d some t h i ng l i ke a bout 85 member s . Abou t . . . I th i n k a bout

20 or 25 con t i n ued the i r member s h i p he re L ca u se the d ues wen t up q u i te a

b i t . You see , o u r d ues wa s ve ry modes t , $ 1 5 a yea r . He re i t wen t u p to $75

I g ues s , somet h i ng l i ke t ha t . S o , I t h i n k a bout 25 con t i n ued the i r membe r s h i p

here .

Q. We l l , two q ues t i on s t hen . The re wa s a dec l i ne i n membe r s h i p o f the Leop o l d

S t reet S hu l ove r t he year s and you f i na l l y dec i ded t h a t we don tt have enou g h

membe rs to con t i nu e ?

A . I wou l d say th i s . Tha t the dec i s i on wa s t h a t we had to move , u r ban ren ewa l

ha d t o t ake ove r o u r home , a nd s i nce we moved we cou l dn 1 t go f rom he re ove r

t he re 1 ca u se o u r na t u ra l move wou l d be to B r i g h ton . So t ha t s i nce my brothe r­

i n- J aw . . . between my b r ot he r� i n � l aw and myse l f we d i d v i r t ua l J y a l l the

wor k , there wa s nobody t o do t he wor k .. The re fore , i t mea n t that we had to

c l ose up .

Q . B u t u rban renewa l wa s .. . . I mean i n fact i t d i d not des t roy the Leopo l d

S t reet . .

A . N o , t hey . o u r h ome . . .

I n te rv i ew w i t h M r . He rman Sa rachan

Q. We l l , whe re wa s you r home?

A. On Gorham S t r eet , wh i ch i s

Q. Oh , whe re you we re l i v i ng ?

A . Yea , whe re I wa s l i v i ng , o u r home .

Q. Oh , I see .

Page 2 9

A . Yea , a n d so we had to move . And when we moved away we had to c 1 o s e down ..

Q . The temp l e needed .

A . Tha t 1 s r i g h t .

Q. They needed you r i n vo l veme n t .

A . Yes .

Q. They d epended on you .

A . Yes , 1 ca u s e t he re wa s nobody e l se . My b ro t he r� i n -. l aw and 1 .. My b rot he r- i n ­

l aw , i nc i den ta l l y , was t he one t ha t read the Tora h . And I u s ua l l y cond uc ted

or a s s i s ted i n con d uct i ng t he s e rv i ces , pa rt i cu l a r l y on t he h i g h ho l i days .

You s ee , t he ca n to r t a kes ove r , i f you 1 re fam i l i a r w i t h t he s e rv i ce , t he cantor

takes ove r t he second po rt i on . The f i r s t por t i on i s wha t you m i g ht ca l l a

c an t or n um be r two , a n d I wa s u s ua l l y t he can tor n umbe r two .. And my brot he r-·

i n - l aw wa s t he one t ha t s ta r ted i t . So t ha t . . . t ha t wa s i t .

Q. And when you l ef t .

A . When we I 1 eft we had t o move o u t o f the s hu 1 .

Q . They cou l dn 1 t f i nd a rep l acement o r t hey cou l dn 1 t even f i nd you a no the r home

i n t he a rea? I t seems to me t ha t . .

A . And t he a n swe r i s we d i dn 1 t wan t i t .

Q. You d i d n 1 t wan t to s tay t he r e ?

s t r ee t you were l i v i n g on ?

A . Gorham S t reet .

Now whe re were you l i v i ng ? Wha t wa s t he

I n te rv i ew w i t h M r . H e rman Sa rachan

Q. What wa s t h e name of t he st reet you we re l i v i n g on ?

A . Gorham S t ree t .

Q. Th i s i s i n t he J oseph Aven ue a rea ?

Page 30

A . Tha t 1 s r i g ht , ye s . Gorham , i t runs between S t . Pa u l and C l i n ton . And i t 1 s

r i g h t oppo s i te , be l i eve i t o r not , a C a t ho l i c chu rc h , her e , too ; r i gh t oppos i te

a C a t ho l i c c h u rc h .

Q. know i t , I not i ced .

A . Ove r t h e re we , ·we re oppos i te S t . B r i dget " s .

Q. L i fe i ron i e s .

A . Yea . I nc i den t a l l y , we l ove i t he re .

Q . l t 1 s ve ry p l ea sa n t he re .

A . Yea .

Q. Th i s i s B r i g hton , yes ?

A . Yes .

Q. You d i dn 1 t wa n t to s t ay then i n t he .. . ... i n t he J osep h Avenue a rea ? I t

was enou g h .

A . See , i t had dete r i o ra ted . The Jew i s h commun i ty had v i r t ua l l y d i sappea red ,

d on 1 t you see? Those t hat came t o our . . . we had se rv i ce s on l y Sa tu rday

morn i ng and fest i va l s a nd ho l i day s and t he h i g h ho l yd a y s . So t hose tha t came

on Sa tu rday mo rn i ng to ma ke up t he m i n i on , except my brothe r - i n - l aw a nd I ,

they . . . t hey d r ove bec a u s e t hey we re i n I rondequo i t and some of t hem we re i n

B r i g hton .

Q. I be l i eve t he re a re s t i l l a coup l e of synagogues opera t i ng down on Joseph

Avenue .

A . One of t hem negot i a ted w i t h u s to ama l gama te w i th us . B u t , t hey wan ted

cer ta i n p r ov i s i on s and a l so mea n t t ha t we wou l d have to t a ke t he i r rabb i 1

fe l t t ha t we s hou l d t a ke t he i r ra bb i � a nd we cou l dn 1· t get toge t he r .

I n t e rv i ew w i t h M r . He rman Sa rachan

Q. Appa r en t l y they 1 re a b l e to ma ke i t on t he i r own ?

A . Ab l e to�ma ke i t on t he i r own ..

Q . Fam i l i e s a r e s t i l l d r i v i ng t he re ?

P a g e 3 1

A . Ye s . And I g ue s s t hey ' r e . t ha t '· s f u rt he r . .. . fu r t he r down J o s e p h s o

t ha t , I i mag i ne , the re ' s s t i l l a n umbe r of Jews l i v i n g t he re .

Q. You l i ved t hen i n t h a t a rea for . fo r a l l you r l i fe ? P ract i ca l l y a l l

you r l i fe? The c hanges , of cou rse , t ha t wen t on t he re a re i nc red i b l e ove r

t he y ea rs .

A . I n o u r house , i t was on e of t he be s t bu i l .t hou ses i n the c i ty , and I say i t

modes t l y . I t wa s a sma l l home , I d on •: t mean t h a t i t wa s a n Ea s. t Aven ue

ma n s i on . The man who bu i l t i t for h i mse l f and presuma b l y for h i s son , doub l e

s i de - by-s i de , wa s . . . wa s a s i l en t pa r tner o f a bu i l d e r . S o t ha t the bu i l d e r

p u t i n t he f i nes t ma te r i a l s because . . . br i ck fac i ng and s tucco. The wa l l s

t h i c k , t he . . . he even had sma l l s t a i n ed g l a s s w i ndows on each s i de . And

peop l e tha t had to come to do some wor k , p l umbe r s , and o t he r s . Men t ha t

c l eaned o u r f u rnace , g u t te rs , wha t have you , t hey m a r ve l ed a t s uch a good

hous e . An d t he reason why we g ot i t wa s beca u se t he bu i l de r ' s son , or h i s

w i f e , daughter- i n- J aw , dec i ded she d i d n ' t wan t to J i ve on Gorham S t ree t . So

t hey had to rent out . And t hen h e , h i mse l f , dec i ded to move . So my fathe r-·

i n- J aw an d I boug ht t he hou se j o i n t l y . An d we occup i ed one s i de and my

fa t he r-· i n- 1 aw occup i ed t he o t he r . Then a fte r m y mothe r "'i n "'"'J aw pa s sed awa y ,

he r son who wa s s i n g l e came t o J i ve w i t h u s , a nd he L s l i ved w i th u s t he re ..

The re ' s t he fam i l y h i s tory , i f you w i l l .

Q. You can a l mos t fo l l ow t he fam i l y h i s tory by t he ne i g hborhood s t ha t . . . tha t

you l i v ed i n .

A . S u r e . And o u r house was torn down . Rece i ved not i ce f rom u rban renewa l tha t

i t i s g o i ng down b t · . ' u I t s t 1 ] ] s tood for a few yea r s . And I l et a co l ored

I n te rv i ew w i t h M r . He rman Sa rachan Page 32 ·

A. (Cont i n ued ) fam i l y i n to o u r s i d e , t he o t he r s i de we re wh i te s . An d t he

k i d s v i s i t t he wh i tes because t he ch i l d ren ha d a l l g rown up l i v i ng r i g ht

nex t to u s . And t hey sa i d , wou l d you l i ke to see wha t you r house l ooks l i ke ?

The b l a c ks had moved out . And the wa l l s we re r i p ped . They had p u t i n a k i nd

of a l ea t h e r p a pe r i n s i de , ve ry expen s i ve t hey t e l l me . Eve r y t h i ng wa s r i pped

down . The p i p i ng wa s torn u p . The f i xt u re s . . . t hey j u s t made a mes s . One

l ook and t hey d i dn 1 t wan t to see a n y more . Then a bout a coup l e mon t h s l a t e r

t h e hou se wen t down . La s t hou se on t he s t reet to go down .

Q . S u ppose tha t u r ban renewa l d i dn 1 t even ex i s t , wou l d you have con t i n ued l i v i ng

t he re ?

A . The cha nces a re we 1· d have 1 i ved t here beca use my w i fe d i dn 1· t wan t t o move ..

We wa n ted t o move beca use t he ne i g hborhood wa s deter i ora t i ng .

Q. You d i d wan t to move?

A . I a nd my b rothe r- i n - l aw wan t ed to move , my w i fe wou l dn � t have moved � S he ld

have s tayed t he re .

Q. And you men t i oned t ha t t here we re some J ew i sh fam i l i e s s t i l l 1 i v i ng there i n

. i n t he a rea . I wou l d a s s ume not man y .

A . B y t he t i me . . . b y t he t i me we l ef t t here wa s on l y one fam i l y t ha t wa s J i v i ng

t he re .

Q. I mean t ha t 1 s a rea son enoug h to move , t h a t you r f r i en d s and ne i g hbor s . . �

A . Dh , t he who l e ne i g hbor hood , t he J ew i s h peop l e moved ou t .

Q. We l l , why d i d you r w i fe not fee l . . ?

A . She l oved t he hous e so m uch . And s uppose i t wa s sen t i ment .

Q. How l ong we re you i n t h i s house ? The hou se i t se l f ?

A . F r om there we moved i n he re .

Q. I mean how l on g we re i n t he hou se i t se l f ?

A . S i nce 1 973 .

I n te rv i ew w i th M r . He rman Sa ra chan

Q. I mean on the Gor ham S t reet .

Page 33

A . O h , on Go rham S t reet . We bought t he hou se i n 1 92 1 , sho r t l y a fte r we we re

rna rr i ed .

Q. So t h e re wa s a J ot of sent i men t t he r e .

A . Su re. M y f a t he r � i n � J aw had .. . . he wa s a p r i n t e r a n d so h e bu i l t a l i t t l e

p r i n t s hop ba ck of t he house , a n d for yea r s he ran the p r in t shop . I n c i den ta l l y ,

my w i fe ve ry often wa s an a s s i s t an t , he l p i ng w i t h t he typ i ng , p roof i ng and

eve ry t h i ng e l se . An d he p a ss ed awa y , s he ca r r i ed on w i t h t he work un t i l my

mot her pa ssed awa y . Then t hey so l d o u t .

Q. Do yo u have c h i l d ren ?

A . I h a ve a s on .

Q. And he g rew u p i n th i s a rea ?

A . Yes , he 1 i ves two s t reets awa y .

Q . I n Br i ghton ?

A .

Q.

A .

Mmm-hmm . Fou r g randc h i l d ren .

How 1 ong

He ' s f i fty .

l e t me t h i n k , how o l d i s your s on ?

Q. So t hat he J i ved i n t he Joseph Aven ue a r ea , too , for . . � for a good por t i on

of h i s l i fe?

A . We l l , he l i ved i n our house .

Q. And when he got ma r r i ed ?

A . When he got ma r r i ed for a t ime h e wa s connec ted w i t h a f i rm i n Buffa l o .. He '; s

an e l ec t r on i c s eng i nee r , a f i rm i n B u f fa l o . And t hen he wor ked for Gene ra l

Dynam i c s un t i l t h i s c l osed down .

Q. le t me a s k you about h i s . . . h i s Jewi s hne s s . D i d he a t tend the leopo l d St reet

Shu l ?

A . He i s n o t v e r y re l i g i ous .

I n te rv i ew w i t h He rma n Sa rachan

Q. Wa s t h e re a ny , i f I ma y a sk , con f l i ct o r .. . . . ?

A . Not pa r t i cu l a r l y , j us t i nd i f fe rent .

Q. Accep t ed t ha t t he re '; s a d i f fe rence .

A . Wha t ca n you do?

Q. So he d i d n ot a t tend t he . . . t he s h u } too often o r . . . ?

A . Oh , he comes on t he h i g h ho ] i da ys .

Q. OK .

Page 34

A . And h i s son s g o t o Hebrew schoo l un t i l t he i r Ba r M i t zva h , and t h a t ' s a bout

i t .

Q. I wan t t o a s k a bout you r i mp re s s i on s of t he g row i n g b l a c k commun i ty i n the

Joseph Aven ue a rea , wh i ch has , I s u p pose on e of the maj or eve n t s we re the 1 964

r i o t s ?

A . Oh , y e s .

Q. s uppo se you have a few . . .

A . remember we wa l ked th roug h t ha t a r ea . You s e e , i t d i dn � t reach us . I t

wa s j u s t a b l oc k awa y , two b l ocks awa y , J o seph Aven ue p a r t i cu l a r l y . Hud son

Avenue a n d on s ome of t he s i de s t reet s . We wa l ked t h ro ug h , and oh , wha t t ha t

p l ace was l i ke ! Afte r . . . a f te r the r i ot s had been c hecked .

Q. I t m u s t have been a f r i g hten i ng t i me for you .

A . Oh , when we . . when we hea rd t hose s i ren s g o i ng a l l n i g h t , and we hea rd on

t he rad i o tha t t he re '· s a r i ot . We we re rea l l y wor r i ed , how fa r i s i t g o i ng

to exten d ? Wha t t s gon n a ha ppen ?

Q. D i d you ever worry to the exten t of mov i ng out a t t ha t po i n t ?

A . I t seemed fa r awa y f rom u s . And I ' m wonde r i ng whe t he r s u bcon sc i ous l y we

bega n to t h i nk a bo u t , you know , we oug h t to get o u t of he re .

Q. I n ; some of t he repor t s a bo u t the r i o t s the re we re J ew i s h and kos he r s hop s that

we re a tt a c ked J · h . . ' ew 1 s p ropr i eto r s were a t tacked and I suppose 1 f t he re t s any

I n te rv i ew w i t h M r . He rman Sa rachan Page 35

Q . (Con t i n ued ) to be conce rned i t t s beca use you we r e Jewi s h l i v i ng i n the

a r ea . D i d you fee l a ny of t h i s ?

A ; When t he r i ot s took p l ace ou r a rea wa s s t i l l t o a l a rge exten t Jew i s h . A

. a few P u e r to R i ca n s had moved i n , we g ot a l ong ve ry we l l w i th t hem.

Two hou s e s awa y we re P ue r to R i ca n s , a n d s i n ce we had no ga rage of our own ,

ren ted a g a ra g e two doors awa y . And they we re very n i ce . They ' d he l p c l ean

out the snow. They . . . one of t hem d i d have a ca r a ft e r a t i me , bu t t hey ' d

. we g ot a l ong ve ry we l l w i t h t hem . I t wa s the b l acks tha t we began to

have t rou b l e .

Q . When d i d t h i s beg i n a bout ? I know t h a t the b l a c ks moved i n to t hat a rea of

Roches t e r i mmed i a te l y a f te r t he second wa r , and t he r e wa s a con s t a n t i nc rea se

i n pop u l a t i on so t h a t t h r ough t he for t i es and t he f i ft i es t h i s wa s a g row i ng

segmen t o f t he popu l a t i on . But you s t i l l s tayed i n t he a rea ?

A . Yes , ve ry few i nc i den t s , ve ry few .

Q . Became a t ru l y m i xed a rea to 1 i ve i n ?

A . To a l a rge ext en t . Coup l e of c o l ored k i ds g ra bbed my w i fe �s pocketbook , ran

awa y , q u i te a b i t of money and a l l tha t , t h a t wa s t he end of i t . Just ac ross

the s t r eet f rom t he hous e , t hose two c o l ored k i d s g ra bbed , ra n , tha t wa s the

end .

Q . An d tha t wa s rea l l y t he on l y i nc i den t you can reca l l ?

A . The re wa s one other i nc i dent . One day we had come bac k f r om s hopp i ng and

we mov ed t he ma te r i a l o u t to t he f ron t porc h , and my w i fe and brothe r we re

tak i ng the s tuff i n . I wen t back to t he ca r to p u t i t i n t he garag e , two

doo r s awa y . Then two b i g co l ored fe l l ows s i t t i ng i n t he bac k sea t , t a ke u s

home . s a i d , oh no , I ca n ' t . You gotta take u s home , we gotta get home i n

a hu r ry . And wh i l e kep t say i ng , n o I can 1 t , got to p u t t he ca r awa y . My

w i fe sa i d why i s i t t a k i ng He rman so l ong to p u t t he ca r awa y ? My brother�

I n t e rv i ew w i t h M r . He rman Sa ra c han Page 36

A . ( Con t i nued ) i n � l aw wa l ked bac k , a nd he wa s a b i g h u s ky fe l l ow , •: cause

he wa s q u i te a n a t h l ete i n t hose days , q u i te a sem i ., p rofes s i on a l ba l l p l aye r .

Wha t a r e you do i ng he re ? And t hey saw two peop l e , a n d h e l ooks l i ke a h u s ky

k i d , s o t hey got out . Now , wha t wou l d have happen ed i f had dec i ded to take

them awa y , I p roba b J y wou 1 dn 1· t have come ba c k , l ': d ha ve been brough t bac k on

a s t r e t che r . We 1 1 , t ha t wa s . • .

Q. That was when ?

A . Tha t was t he on l y i nc i den t .

Q. Wha t a bou t d u r i ng t he r i ot s t hemse l ves ?

A . The r i ot s themse l ve s a l l we hea rd wa s on t he rad i o. They d i dn ' t come an ywhere

nea r . I don • t t h i n k t hey came a n ywhere nea r C l i n ton . . . C l i n ton Ave h u e . I t

wa s a b l oc k , on e b l oc k away on Josep h and ove r towa rd s H ud s on i h t ha t a rea .

Q. Do y ou t h i n k t here wa s a n y a n t i .,...Sem i t i sm i nvo l ved i n t he 1 64 r i ot s ?

A . I don ' t have . • . I wou l d on l y g ue s s . • . when you say J ew i s h . . . • ca u s e so

many J ew � sh p l aces t he re , don ' t you see? So tha t t he re cou l d have been some

a n t i - Sem i t i sm the re , i t may hav e been j u s t va nda l i sm , rega rd l es s of who .

B u t i t . . . i t wa s not i cea b l e t ha t ce r t a i n non -Jew i s h s tores we re not touched

i n the a r ea .

Q. I n t he a rea ?

A . I n t h e a rea .

Q . I t seems to me i f t he re wa s a n t i �Sem i t i sm t hey certa i n l y wou l d have been . . .

A . Tha t wou l dn ' t occ u r .

Q. O K .

E N D O F TAP E 1 , S I DE B ( I n t erv i ew I )

I n t e rv i ew w i t h M R . H ERMAN SARACHAN J un e 22 , 1 976

Page 37

By Denn i s K l e i n

I n te rv i ew I I Tape 1 S i de A

Q . Th i s i s Den n i s Kl e i n ta l k i ng w i t h M r . He rma n Sa rachan on J une 22 , 1 976 a t h i s

home . I t houg h t , M r . Sa racha n , we wou l d beg i n where we l ef t off l a s t t i me .

We were ta l k i ng a bo ut you r l ong ex i stence i n the Joseph Avenue a rea i n

Roche s t e r . We we re emp ha s i z i ng t he recen t p e r i od , espec i a l l y t he 1 964 r i ot s .

B u t I f i nd the a rea t o be ve ry i n te res t i ng i n t he 1 92 0 l s , 1 30 l s , and L 40 � s .

Do you ha ve any overa l l i mp res s i on s o f t he changes w i t h i n t he ne i g hbor hood

d u r i ng t ha t per i od of t i me t hr oug h t he f i ft i es ?

A . We l l , i n t he f i r s t p l ace l et me say t ha t i t wa s i n t he twen t i es l a rge l y a

Q .

Jewi s h a rea w i th many synagog ues , some of t hem rep resen t i ng i mm i g ran ts , some

spec i f i c a rea s of E urope , a l l f l ou r i sh i ng . B u t g ra d ua l l y . . . pa r t i cu l a r l y

i n t he fort i es , t he a rea began t o c hange . I n t he f i r s t p l ace many J ews became

q u i te af f l uen t a n d moved awa y . I t wa s i n t hose yea r s that t he Con s e rva t i ve

temp l e was o rgan i zed i n t he Pa r k Aven ue sec t i on whe re Jews ha d been mov i ng .

An d a t t he same t i me b l a cks bega n to move i n . Jews not on l y moved south i n to

t he Pa r k Avenue sect i on , bu t t hey a l so moved n o r t hwa rd and new con g r eg a t i on s

we re formed the re w i t h the r e s u l t t ha t t he Joseph Avenue , C l i n t on Aven ue

sect i on became l e ss a nd l e s s J ew i s h . When t he r i ot s came t he r e were s t i l l

many J ewi s h stores t he re , bu t the re we re a l so a n umbe r of o t he r s . I t seems

t houg h t he J ewi sh p l a ces of bus i n e s s s uffe red the mos t .

Thes e . t he yompos i t i on o f the ne i g hbor hood wa s Eas tern E u ropean ?

A . Yes , t he compos i t i on wa s Ea s te rn E u ropea n .

Q. D i d you f i nd t ha t beca use t he re wa s a p r i ma r i l y J ew i s h , Ea s te r n E u ropean ,

n a t u r e to t he n e i g h bor hood t ha t t h i s wa s comfor ta b l e p l a ce fo r you to 1 i ve

for t hat rea son ?

I n terv i ew w i t h M r . He rman Sa rachan Page 38

A. I wou l d say t ha t i t wa s d ef i n i te l y so . We we re a l l O r t hodox and i n those

ea r l y yea rs , 1 93 D l s and l 4 0 � s , when a Sa bba t h or a fe s t i va l came and certa in l y

i n t he h i g h ho l ydays , t he p l a ce had cea sed to funct i on a s a bus i ness • . .

b u s i nesses we re c l osed . And J ews by i n l a rge enj oyed t he Sabba t h , t he fes t i va l ,

or t he ho 1 i da y .

Q. You men t i oned tha t you r home on Gorham S t reet , you moved i n to that i n 1 92 1

a n d t ha t your f a t he r had a p r i n t s hop i n t he bac k .

A . M y fa t h e r- i n- l aw.

Q. Y o u r father- i n � l aw.

A . Yes . Th i s p r i n t s hop we bu i l t on to the house , and t he p r i n t s hop con t i n ued

for many yea rs . May I a l so say t h a t Go rham S t reet wa s a l oca l e of t he Jew i s h

C h i l d ren ' s Home , a s we l l a s fo r we l l -cknown J ews i n t he commun i ty s t;.�ch a s

Ra bb i S o l omon Sadows ky , Hyman Go l dman , a n d other men of p rom i nence i n t he

O r t hodox J ewi s h commun i ty .

Q. Do you reca l l wha t wa s p r i n ted i n the s hop ? Wha t k i nd of ma te r i a l wa s made

t he re?

A . We l l p r i ma r i l y i t wa s such i tem s a s t he news bu l l e t i n s and advert i s i ng sen t

ou t by t he Ha r t S tores , t he Hada s sa h bu l l et i n s we re p r i n ted the re , a l ong w i t h

gen e ra l p r i n t i ng s u c h a s Ba r M i tzvah i nv i ta t i on s , wedd i ng J nv i ta t i on s and so

for t h .

Q. Wa s Hebrew and Y i dd i sh u sed ?

A . Both Hebrew a n d Y i dd i s h wa s u sed , a s we l l a s o f cou r se .. ..

Q . Secu l a r .

A . . . . secu l a r , the Eng l i sh .

Q. We may come . . . come bac k to tha t a rea l a te r on . I wan t ed to get i n to you r

i nvo l vemen t a n d you r con t r i bu t i on to t he Ma son i c Lodge organ i za t i on i n

Roche s te r . Wo u l d you beg i n by te l l i ng u s s ome of t he h i s t o ry of t he l oca l

I n te rv i ew w i t h M r . Herma n Sa rachan Page 3.9

Q. (Con t i n ued ) Mason i c Lodge he re?

A . The e ar l i es t l odge i n t h i s a rea wa s i n 1 8 1 7 , a n d b y 1 82 6 t he r e we re a c t ua l l y

i n Roc he s te r a n d i n s ubur ban a r ea s i n Mon roe Coun ty a bo u t a dozen l odge s and

two of t he so� ca l l ed h i g he r bod i es . B u t i n 1 826 a n even t occu r red wh i c h

c a u sed a l l t ho s e l odge s to g i ve up t he i r c h a r t e r s un t i l 1 845 when t he f i r s t

of t he p resent l odges wa s cha r te red and came i nto be i ng a n d ex i st s to t h i s

d a y .

Q. When d i d y ou . . . when d i d you become i n vo l ved ?

A . I became a Ma son i n 1 8 . . . 1 906 . . .

Q . 1 92 6 7

A . 1 92 6 . l 1 d b e p r e t ty o l d i n 1 82 0 . . .

Q. Yes .

A . 1 .92 6 . I n 1 940 I was Ma s te r o f m y l odge .. I nc i dent a l l y , th i s l odge , F l owe r

C i t y Lodg e , con s i s t s a l mo s t en t i re l y of b r et hr en who a re Jews . I n 1 942 I

wa s appo i n ted D i s t r i ct Deputy G rand Ma ste r of t he F i r s t Mon roe D i s t r i ct .

Mon roe D i s t r i ct ha s two d i s t r i c ts , one wi . t h 1 5 l odges a n d one w i t h 1 6 . Tha t

wa s a n a p po i n tmen t , a nd i s a n a p po i n tmen t , fo r one yea r . I n 1 943 when

comp l eted my yea r a s D i s t r i ct Deputy I wa s a ppo i n ted to the G ra nd Lodge

Comm i t tee , t he comm i t tee on emp l oymen t s e r v i ce s , by t he G rand Ma s te r t hen

func t i on i ng , and have been on t he G ra n d Lodge Comm i t tee r i g ht down to t he

p re s en t day . I se rved on t ha t f i r s t comm i t tee for a n umber of yea r s a n d then

wa s appo i n ted to t he comm i t tee on l i bra ry and museums i n New York , of wh i ch

I f un c t i oned a g a i n for a n um be r of yea r s . And mos t recen t l y , the pa s t ha l f

dozen yea r s , 1 1 ve been on a comm i t tee ca l l ed C u s tod i a n s of the Wor k , wh i ch

ha s t he res pon s i b i l i ty for r i t ua l i s t i c wor k of G ra n d Lodge . Wou l d you l i ke

s ome of my other . . . ? Because i t 1 s a l ong s tory .

Q. Go a head . There i. s a l ot he re ..

I n t e rv i ew w i t h M r . He rman Sa rachan

A . 1 Ca use I hav e he re .. . ..

Pag e 40

Q. Wo u l d you men t i on wha t you have befcire you ? Wha t � � . wha t i s t ha t ?

A . He re a re the books wh i ch I had p u b l i s hed . The f i rs t one wh i l e I wa s mem be r s h i p

d i rec tor a t t he J Y , i t i s ca l l ed 11 Campa i g n i ng for Membe rs .. 1 1

by t he p re s s o f t he n a t i ona l YMCA , ca l l ed Assoc i a t i on P re s s .

I t wa s p r i n ted

Th i s wa s i n 1 94 9 .

Q. The mem be r s refer to t he Ma son i c Lod g e ? Campa i gn for member s of the Ma son i c

Lodg e ?

A . N o , t h i s i s campa i g n i n g for membe r s . . .

Q. J Y .

A . i n YMCAs . YMCA .

Q. Oh , for t he YMCA.

A . And , o f cou rse , Jew i s h agenc i es .

Q. And t he J Y .

A . An d i t wa s s o l d t o very many , v i r t ua l l y a ) ] p roba b l y , o f t he YMCAs i n the

coun t ry by Assoc i a t i on P res s .

Q. We re you respon s i b l e for t hat book? D i d you wr i te t ha t ?

A . Yes .

Q. So t h i s . . . I d i d n 1 t know t ha t you we re i nvo l ved i n any YMCA.

A . We l l , t he YMCAs , t he l oca l secretary a n d I had a ve ry c l ose re l a t i o n s h i p .

We a t tended conven t i on s tog et he r a n d so for t h . And when I p repa red t he

ma n u sc r i p t , 1 1 Campa i gn i ng for Membe rs , 1 1 I offe red i t to J ew i s h We l fa r e Boa rd ,

wh i c h i s t he pa rent body of t he Jew i s h ag enc i es . They wou l dn 1 t accept i t .

So my YMCA f r i end s ugges ted t h a t I send i t to the Assoc i at i on Pres s , a nd

t hey p ub l i s hed i t . And a s I sa i d so l d i t q u i t e . . .. q u i te we l l .

Q. Now , J et me j u s t a sk you s ome q uest i on s a bout t h i s . l t 1 s very i n te re s t i ng .

Th i s boo k , I haven 1 t ta ke n a l ook a t i t , does i t a pp ea l to t he broad p rob l em s

o f ga i n i ng membe r s i n a va r i et y o f org a n i za t i on s ? Or do you ta l k s pec i f i ca l l y

I n te rv i ew w i t h He rman Sa rachan Page 4 1

Q. ( Con t i n ued ) a bout the YMCA?

A. We ta l ked p r i ma r i l y a bou t YMCA as we l l as o u r own J Y . But 1 i t wa s used a n d

I know t hey d i sposed o f ma ny cop i e s to other a g en c i e s , schoo l s , a nd othe r s

tha t had campa i gn s .

Q. So i t had a b road a p p ea l ?

A . I t had a b road appea 1 .

Q. Why d i dn 1 t the J ew i s h organ i za t i on acce p t t he book , t a ke respon s i b i l i ty for

pu b l i s h i n g i t ? Do you reca l l t he rea son for t ha t ?

A . They d i dn 1 t g i ve m e a n y rea son s excep t t ha t t hey we re p repa r i ng someth i ng

t hemse l ves .

Q. s ee .

A . n eve r saw a n yt h i ng t hough t ha t wou l d b e i n the s hape o f a book , so maybe

t hey j u s t d i d n 1 t wa n t to u n d e r t a ke a n y t h i ng l i ke t ha t .

Q . You m u s t have been d i sappo i n ted w i t h t ha t rea ct i on .

A . Yes , m y YMCA f r i end cou l dn 1 t unde r s ta n d i t . B u t t hey p i c ked i t u p . The o t he r

boo k , p u b l i s hed i n 1 97 0 , i s t i t l ed 1 1 The H i s tory o f Ma son ry i n Mon roe County . 1 1

The f i r s t p a r t of i t a p pea red ea r l i e r i n a m i meog raphed book l e t wh i ch cove red

the h i s tory of t hose ea r l y l od g e s f rom 1 8 1 7 on . . . f rom 1 8 1 7 on t h rough 1 82 6 .

I t wa s a l so p ub l i s hed o r a d i ge s t of i t wa s pub l i s hed i n the a n n ua l t ra n sa c t i on s

of t he Ame r i c a n Lodge o f Resea rch , o f wh i c h I a m a n ac t i ve membe r . Th i s i s

a Lodge of Resea rch under t he G ra nd Lodge of N ew York , devoted e n t i re l y to

resea rch a nd wr i t i ng of p a p e r s and so for t h .

Q. Now t h i s i s l oca ted , I be l i eve , i n U t i ca i' New Yor k ? The resea rch . . .

A . We 1 1 . . .

Q . The resea rch .

A . Loca ted i n New York C i ty .

Q . Oh , i n N ew York C i ty . I n t he 1 P r i mer of F ree Ma son ry t wh i ch you a l so wrote ,

I n te rv i ew w i t h M r . Herman Sa rachan Page 42

Q. (Con t i n ued ) wh i c h I have befo r e. me , i t men t i on s t ha t t here a re a n umbe r

of . . .

Vo i c e . Herman , t e l ephone .

Q . wa s refe rr i n g to t h i s Re sea rch la bora tory on t he g rounds of U t i ca �

A . Oh , t ha t l s someth i ng e l se .

Q . Tha t 1 s some t h i ng e l se .

A . Yea . The Ame r i ca n Lodge o f Resea r c h con s i s t s o f men who a re d evoted t o do i ng

res ea rch a n d p repa r i ng papers on Ma son i c s u bj ec t s , The Re search La bora tory i s

somet h i ng en t i re l y d i ffe ren t . A n umbe r of yea rs ago G rand Lodge dec i d ed t ha t

i t wan ted some huma n i ta r i an p roj ec t . They chose r heuma t i c feve r a n d a p po i n ted

resea rch at va r i ou s un i ve rs i t i es on r heuma t i c feve r , w i th the resu l t t hat

r heuma t i c feve r wa s v i r t ua l l y w i ped ou t t hr oug h t he s e p roj ect s . An d t hen

when th i s a p pea red to have been v i rtua l l y comp l eted , o r o t he r bod i es took

ove r wha t eve r needed to be con t i n ued i n resea r c h on r heuma t i c feve r , G rand

Lodge dec i ded to bu i l d t he i r own resea rch l abora tory . And t hey chose t he

s ubj ect of g e r i a t r i c s a nd geron t o l ogy , t he ag i ng p rocess a n d the d i sea s es of

t he a g i ng . Now i n U t i ca i s t he Ma son i c Home , wh i ch i s a bea ut i fu l p l a ce .

wa s t he re l a s t weekend . The re a re some fou r hund red o r f i ve hund red g ue s t s

t he re , l a rge l y a d u l t s beca use c h i l d ren t hese d a y s a re p l aced i n fos t e r homes

r a t he r t han i n an i n s t i tu t i on . And on t hese g round s wa s b u i l t a resea rch

l a boratory eq u i pped fo r t he s t udy of the ag i ng p roce s s and the d i s ea s es of

o l d age , and wa s s ta ffed w i th some of t he out s ta n d i n g men i n th i s cou n t ry i n

t h a t f i e l d . V e ry q u i ck l y i t has secu red such a rep u ta t i on t ha t t he Mayo

C l i n i c con s t an t l y h a s one o f t he i r young men on t he s t a f f spend t i me t he re

s t udy i ng a nd a i d i ng u n d e r t he s t a f f a t t he research l abo ra to r y . A l so the

g ove rnment h a s, f rom t he Depa r tmen t of Hea l t h a n d We l fa re , con s tan t l y ha s

on e o r mo re of t he i r men t h · e re s tudy 1 ng under ou r l a bora tory s ta f f . N ot h i ng

I n t e rv i ew w i th M r . He rman Sa rachan Page 43

A . ( Con t i nued )

i n t he i r . .

sen s a t i ona l has yet come out , b u t t hey •· ve made g reat p roge s s

t he i r s t ud i e s a n d we hope t ha t a g rea t dea l of . , . of h uman i -

ta r i a n advantages w i l l come out o f t h i s l abora tory , wh i ch a s I say i n a s ho r t

few yea rs ha s a t t a i ned s u c h h i g h ran k .

Q . V e ry i n te re s t i n g . You men t i oned . . . you men t i oned t he term h uman i ta r i an .

Th i s i s a maj o r t heme of t he Ma son i c org a n i za t i on ?

A . Th i s i s t he i r maj o r cha r i ta b l e , yes .

Q. As fa r a s a cr eed o r t he va l ues a re conce rn ed , t he re i s a men t ion he re i n t he

book b ro t he rhood , huma n .

A . We l l , l et m e s ay t h i s . .

. huma n i ty and . . .

Q. I f you wou l d te l l u s a bout t ha t .

A . N umbe r on e , F ree Ma son ry i s p u re l y a frat e rna l orde r whose p r i nc i p l e c reed s

a re : t o fo l l ow t he orde r of G-d a nd t he brotherhood of ma n .. And t h i s i s

man i fested n ot on l y i n t he c l ose brot he r l y fee l i ng among Ma s on s , not on l y of

t he pa rt i cu l a r l odge , n ot on l y of t he pa rt i c u l a r s ta t e or G ra n d Lodge , but

a l s o whe rever Ma s on s a r e . I n add i t i on t o t ha t , Ma son s have t he i r p h i l an ­

t h rop i c p roj ec t s . For examp l e , when a c a ta s t rophe occ u r s anywhe re i n t he

wor l d , G ra n d lodge i s u s ua l l y rea dy to he l p w i t h t he i r fund s . I n add i t i on

to t ha t , eve ry l odge when a membe r of h i s fam i l y a re i n need , t hey 1 re ready

to he l p , a n d G rand Lod g e h a s a comm i t tte e on ben evo l en ce wh i ch a s s i s t s t he

l odge a s neces sa ry . G rand Lodge a l so has a comm i t tee wh i ch wo rks w i t h

ve te ran s . Th i s comm i t tee v i s i t s Vete ran s Hosp i t a l s , br i n g s t hem good i es ,

a s we l l a s t he brothe r l y fee l i ng , t h a t t hey � re not a l one , t ha t t he re a re

o t he r s .

Q . Whe re . . . whe re do t he va r i ou s l odges get t he money to wor k t hese p rog rams ?

A . Eve ry l odge ha s i t s d u e s , wh i ch p res uma b l y cove r t he i r expen ses a s we l l a s

I n te r v i ew w i t h He rman Sa rachan Pag e 44

A . ( Con t i nued ) l eav i ng s u c h mon i e s a s a re nece s s a ry for cha r i ta b l e wor k .

G rand Lodge rece i ve s o n a pe r cap i ta bas i s f rom eac h l odge a certa i n sum ,

r i gh t now i t 1 s $ 6 . 2 5 pe r membe r , wh i ch pe rm i t s i t to ca r ry on i t s wor k a s a

G ra n d Lodg e i n N ew Yor k , to s u pport t he U t i ca Home a nd a l so to have funds

a va i ] a b l e for wha teve r c ha r i ta b l e wo rk t hey may w i s h to do .

Q. I f I can get bac k to you r i n vo l vemen t w i t h t he New York C i ty re sea rch , • •

t he re ' s a re sea rch . . .

A. Ame r i can Lodge of Resea rc h .

Q . And you ha ve been i nvo l ved w i t h t h i s o rgan i za t i on ?

A . 1 . . . I ' ve wr i t ten . . . I ' m a n act i ve mem be r . They have two type s of membe r s ,

ac t i ve member s , re l a t i ve l y . . . not a l a rge g roup , and hon o ra ry mem be r s . And

any Ma s t e r Ma son i n New Yo r k S t a te o r a n ywhe re i n t he wor l d t hey become a .

a n honora r y member . Those get the t ra n sact i on s , but t hey ' re not expected to

do a ny i n d i v i d ua l wor k . The act i ve members a re expected to be i nvo l ved i n

s t udy a nd resea rc h a n d i n p resent i ng pape rs .

Q. Th i s book that you men t i oned before come s out of t h i s ac t i v i ty ?

A . To a l a rge exten t , yes . Bu t , t h i s book i n pa r t i c u l a r , be i ng con f i ned to

t h i s a rea , came a bout because the ea r l i e r m i meog raphed book l e t , pamp h l e t wa s

so we l l rece i ved t ha t reques t s came for a h i s tory down to d a t e . Now i f I

ma y s a y a few words a bout t he book i t se 1 f . I t ' s n ot on l y a h i story o f Ma s on r y

i n Mon roe Coun ty , b u t i t s ta r t s of f w i th t he ba ckg round of Ma son ry , t he ea r l y

h i s t ory . I t cove rs the h i s tory , g en e ra l h i s tory , of ou r own G rand Lodge .

And you may reca l l tha t I men t ioned t ha t eve ry G ra n d Lodg e i s a n i n dependen t

body , so l e a n d sove re i gn w i t h i n i t s own j u r i sd i c t i on . I t a l so t i es i n w i th

t he gen e ra l h i s to ry o f the s ta t e bec a u se Ma son ry does n ' t wor k i n a vac uum .

And f i na l l y a f te r hav i ng broug h t . brou g h t the s to r i e s on th i s a rea s down

to 1 970 , t he re i s a c hapter · for each one of t he 3 1 l od g e s , for each of t he

I n te rv i ew w i t h He rma n Sa rac han Page 45

A. ( Con t i nued ) conco rdan t bod i e s a n d fo r t he a s soc i a ted bod i es , l i ke the

women ' s organ i za t i on , l i ke t he s h r i ne t h a t I men t i oned , l i ke the g rotto wh i ch

i s s im i l a r to t he s h r i ne on l y a n y Ma s te r Ma son may be a membe r and so fo rth .

Q . We l l , when .. . . when d i d t h i s book come out ? When d i d you wr i te t h i s book?

A . I t was p u b l i s hed i n 1 97 0 .

Q. Tha t m u s t have been a b i g p roj ec t .

A . Yes , i t took . . . i t took .. . . a c t ua l l y f rom i ts i ncep t i on un t i l i t wa s

p rod uced a n d d e l i ve red by t he p r i n te r ten yea rs e l a psed .

Q. I know I ' m work i ng on a d i s s e r ta t i on my se l f a n d i t ' s tak i n g a t l ea s t t ha t

l on g .

A . I c a n under s tand .

Q , D i d you eve r see the ope ra by Moza r t ca l l ed 1 1The Mag i c F l u t e ? 1 1

A . Yes .

Q, The re a re man y reac t i on s t ha t I had to t ha t and seve ra l peop l e do have to

tha t . One of t hem i s t h a t Moza r t , t h e l i b rett i s t who work w i t h the ope ra ,

were re l a ted to F ree Ma son ry .

A . Tha t ' s t r ue .

Q . I n t h e i r . . . i n t he i r e ra .

A . Thae s t r u e .

Q. Do you th i nk that that ope ra ref l ec t s F ree Ma son r y ?

A . We 1 1 , yes i t . Moz a r t wa s a Ma son . He wrote Ma son i c mus i c . And he a l so

when h e wrote 1 1 The Mag i c F l u te 1 1 he i n t rod uced i n the l i b r e t t o , o r whoeve r

wrote t he l i b ret to , Ma son i c reference s a n d Ma son i c con nota t i on s . B u t , wheh

I l i s ten to t he mus i c I cou l dn ' t a s soc i a te i t w i t h any Mason i c act i v i ty o r

funct i on ..

Q. We l l , t here '· s n ot h i 1ng spec i f i ca l l y . . .

A . Noth i ng spec i f i ca l l y Ma son i c a bout i t .

I n te rv i ew w i t h Herma n Sa racha n Page 46

Q. When I wa tch that ope ra i t 1· s enchan t i ng . I mean i t 1 s a ma rve l ou s p i ece of

mus i c and t he wor k i tse l f a s a who l e . But t he i mp re s s i on that I get , a n d

many peop l e ge t , i s a ] J t h i s mys tery t ha t i s s u r rounded w i t h the ope ra , a n d

t hen f r an t here we g o to F r ee Ma son ry i n gene ra l . I t g i ves a sense of mys t e ry ,

s ec recy . And we t a l ked a l i t t l e b i t a bout th i s . Why has t h i s happen e d ? Why

do peop l e react t ha t way? And t h en i s i t secre t ? I s i t mys te r i ou s ? I s

t ha t p a r t o f t he f u nc t i on o f the soc i e t y ?

A . le t me an swe r . . . a n swe r i t i n th i s way . When I became a Masoh i n 1 8 . . .

i n 1 92 6 , I s t i 1 1 g e t t h a t 1 1 1 81 1 i n . . . When I became a Ma son i n 1 92 6 eve ryth i ng

was hus h , h u s h , h u s h . O n e of t h e members s howed me a bu l l et i n t h a t wa s

d i s t r i buted to t he membe r s wh i ch showed my name a s a ca n d i da te , a n d h e sa i d

I rea l l y s hou l dn 1 t s how you t h i s . Tha t 1 s how sec ret these men be l i eved

everyth i ng s hou l d be . And i t wa s a gen e ra l a t t i t ude . But s i nce t he n we have

mod i f i ed i t g rea t l y beca u se we beg a n to rea l i ze , for examp l e , t hat c l ea h i ng

women come i n to t he Ma son i c lodge a n d t hey can see a n a l ta r i n the cente r ,

t he r efore i t 1 s n o sec r e t i f a woman can s ee i t . Some of t he r i t ua l , we ca l l

i t the e sote r i c wo r k , t he non -sec ret wo r k , i s p r i n ted i n a mon i to r . N ow a

mon i to r t h a t 1 s i n t he hou s e a ny �dy can p i c k up . Or a n y th i ng tha t 1 s p r i n ted

a nybody can p i ck u p . S o t hat today we say tha t the on l y secre t s a re ce r ta i n

mode s of recogn i t i on , ce rta i n p a sswords , a nd the r i t ua l ahd con fo rm i ty

ag reemen t s . Those a re secret s ;

Q . How d i d you r ea c t i n 1 92 6 to t he l a rg e r a t temp t a t s ec r ecy when you f i r st

j o i n ed ?

A , I ra t h e r a ccep ted i t beca use I had been a member o f a co l l ege fra tern i ty

a nd eve ryt h i n g t here wa s secre t . S o , I j u s t accepted i t . B u t , a s t i me wen t

on I began to preach a n d G rand Lodge wa s e n t i re l y con t i n en t w i t h i t , t hat

mos t of wha t . . . mos t of wha t Ma son ry i s and wha t i t tea che s h a s been p r i n ted i h

I n te rv i ew w i th He rman Sa rachan Page 47

A . ( Con t i n ued ) ma ny books ; and , t he r efore , i s not sec ret beca use anyt h i n g

t ha t • s p r i n ted i n a book tha t anybody ca n b uy or t h a t anybody c a n g e t i n a

l i b ra ry , because t he l i b ra ry h a s a n umbe r o f Ma son i c books , o r tha t i s i n

p r i va te l i b ra r i e s , cannot be sa i d to be h u s h , h u s h , sec ret .

Q. The fa ct t ha t you wrote on e you r se l f p u t s you a s one of t he exponen t s of

b r ea k i n g down of t he sec recy t ha t t h a t happened man y yea r s a g o ?

A . Pe rha p s , though I don • t wa nt t o c l a i m c red i t for too much , a l t hough 1 1 ve

had my sha re of hon or s . I 1 ve had my s ha re o f recogn i t i on , not on l y l oca l l y

b u t on a s t a te l eve l . J u s t a mon t h ago a t the G ra n d lodge con ve n t i on , I

wa s one of three men who we re awa rded t he Chance l l or l i v i n g s ton Med a l for

wha t they sa i d rep resen ted out s t and i n g s e rv i ce fo r Mas on ry .

Q . A g rea t honor .

A . I t h i n k s o . And 1 1 m , o f cou r se , t h r i l l ed w i t h t ha t honor . Now t ha t came a fte r

a n umbe r of hon o r s i n t h i s a rea . When t h i s book . . . a ft e r t h i s book wa s

p ub l i s hed t he re wa s a d i n n e r i n my honor a nd a t t ha t d i nn e r I wa s i n fo rmed

a nd g i ve n a p l aque wh i ch s ta t ed t ha t I had been made an honora r y membe r of

eve ry on e o f the 3 1 l odges . Some of t hese l odges had e i t h e r neve r had a n

honora ry member o r had had o n e out s ta n d i ng Ma s on a s an honora ry membe r .

fe l t h i g h l y hono red .

Q. Ma r ve l o u s . You j o i n ed i n 1 92 6 . Wa s t h i s the F l owe r C i ty . . . wa s i t ca l l ed

t he F l owe r C i ty Lodg e ?

A . Yes , F l owe r C i ty Lodge wa s organ i zed i n 1 9 1 4 by a g roup of J ews who we re

bret h ren o f other l odge s . And ha s con t i n ued to t h i s day be i ng l a rge l y composed

o f J ews .

Q . We l l l get i n to t ha t 1 ca us e t h a t 1 s very i n te res t i n g .

A . N ow , may I a l so add th i s ? Tha t the re a re a s man y Jews i n other l od ge s , 1 ca u se

I n te rv i ew w i th He rma n Sara chan Pa g e 48

A. ( Con t i n ued ) t he re a re t h i r ty o t he r l odges i n Mon roe Coun t y , a s t he re

a re i n o u r l od g e .. I n othe r wo rd s , t he g rea t maj or i ty of l odges have some

Jews a s .

Q . I va n t to p u r s ue t ha t a t on e po i n t , b u t befo re we do so t he re 1· s s t i 1 1 some

q u e s t i .on s a sout h i s tory t ha t s t i l l fa s c i na te me . For examp l e , do you reca l l

how you f i rst l ea rn ed a bou t Ma son ry i n you r own l i fe ? And why you f i na l l y

dec i ded t o j o i n i n 1 92 6 7

A . I had been hea r i n g a bout Ma son ry a nd i n 1 925 t he Ma s t e r wa s one whom I knew

ve ry we l l , who had g rown up i n t he same a rea , who i nc i d en ta l l y had been

T r ea s u re r for 50 yea rs , he wa s Ma s te r tha t yea r . And t he Sec ret a ry wa s a

f ra te rna l b rother of m i ne f rom my c o l l eg e fra tern i ty . So t ha t hav i n g hea rd

of t he Ma son i c f ra t er n i ty , a s t hey . . . a wo r t hwh i l e f ra te rna l orde r , and

hav i ng t he s e men i n p rom i nent pos i t i on s , Ma s t e r a nd Secreta ry , t he two

i mp o r t a n t . . . mo s t i mp o r t a n t off i ce s i n the l odge . The re we re severa l

men a t H i c key-F reeman , a nd I wa s then a t H i ckey-F reema n , who we re membe rs of

t he l od ge . And one of t hem wa s a p a s t Ma s te r . And s o when I ca s ua l l y , a s

t houg ht , enq u i red o f t hem wha t a bo u t t h i s F l owe r C i ty Lodg e? They to l d me

a n d t hey s a i d . . . and I s a i d how doe s one become a member ? They sa i d , we l l

a sk t he Secreta ry , you say you know h i m , for a pet i t i on a n d you f i l l i t ou t ,

a nd one of u s w i l l be g l a d t o be you r spon so r , you r p ropose r , a nd t h a t i s t he

way i t s ta r ted . Now , hav i ng been a l ways one who wa s i n t e res ted i n h i s tory .

I n my h i g h schoo l days a nd c o l l ege d ays a vo ra c i ous rea de r of h i s to r i ca l

roma n ces , for examp l e , when I wa s i n h i g h schoo l . When I became a Ma son

s ec u r ed f rom t he G ra nd Lod g e l i b ra ry h i s to r i es , gene ra l h i s to r i es , of Mason ry

i n t he S ta te of New Yor k . And t h a t s ta r t ed me on that tac t . And d u r i ng

a l l t hos e yea rs , of cou r se , g radua l l y I a cq u i red more a n d more i n fo rma t i on

a n d mo re a n d mo re knowl ed g e .

I n te rv i ew w i t h He rman Sa rachan Page 49

Q. Do you reca l l i f i t wa s . or i f i t we re t he p r i nc i p l e s of Ma son i c l odge

tha t i nt e r e s ted you , or t he i dea o f soc i a b i l i t y ? What spec i f i ca l l y f i na l l y

so l d you i n to t h i s orga n i za t i on ?

A . We l l , f ran k l y i t wa s p u re l y , a s I say , wha t I t hought wa s t he p res t i ge of

t he f ra te rn i ty , the Ma son s . When I wen t i n and l ea rned of the p r i n c i p l es

t h i n k one of t he f i rs t a dd res ses t ha t I made , I g ave i t a n umber of t i mes ,

not on l y i n Roches te r but i n Buffa l o a n d ot he r t owns . .

Q. To o t he r l odges ?

A . Yes . Wa s a t a l k on Ma son i c symbo l i sm and i t s tea ch i ng s . To t h i s day I

t h i n k somewhe re I have my • . . my ea r l y notes on symbol i sm . S o t ha t i t was

t hen the i dea s and i d ea l s wh i ch he l d me and ma de me i n te re s ted and ma de me

a c t i ve i n t h i s .

Q. Even more wou l d you s ay t han t he i d ea of a soc i a l g roup or a p l ace?

A . Wh i l e I , i n t hose ea r l y day s , a ttended soc i a l a ffa i r s , we have a n a nn ua l

l ad i es n i g h t pa rty ; we have a p i cn i c ; we have c h i l d ren ' s p a r t i e s , Chan u kka h

pa r t y . An d I at t en d ed t hose . B u t my p r i nc i pa l i n t e res t wa s i n the i dea l i sm ,

the tea c h i ng , and t he h i s t o ry .

Q . OK . I n t he p r i me r i t say s t ha t F ree Ma son ry i s not a re l i g i on but i t i s

r e l i g i ou s . And t he re i s some reference to . . to t he be l i ef i n G �d a s an

i mp o r ta n t p r i nc i p l e , as we l l as re ferences to r i t ua l w i t h i n the orga n i za ti on .

I t seems to me tha t t here a re many r e l i g i ou s e l emen t s to Ma son ry .

A . We l l , t h a t i s why we s a y t ha t Ma sonry i s re l i g i ous . N o l odge can open w i t hout

the B i b l e on t he a l t a r , a nd w i thou t open i ng i n a p raye r a n d c l os i ng w i th a

p raye r .

Q. So there i s th i s r e i i g i ous e l emen t to i t ?

A. Yes , i t '· s r e l i g i o u s bu t i t '· s not a r e l i g i on .. And i t '· s n on .,. secta r i an .

Q . Wa s t h i s r e l i g i ou s e l emen t one of t hose p r i nc i p l es t ha t had a n d s t i l l

I n te rv i ew w i th He rma n Sa rachan Page 5 0

Q. ( Con t i n ued ) a t t ra c t s you today?

A . I wou l d s ay so l a rge l y .

Q . We l l , l e t 1· s get i n to th i s .. The a s pec t o f t he Jewi s h a t t ra c t i on genera l l y a n d

pe rhaps you r own . mean , wha t 1 s . . . i s there a Jewi s h , even though i t i s

non - secta r i a n , you men t i oned t ha t t here we re ma ny J ews i n s i de the organ i za t i on

a n d t ha t t here a re some r e l i g i ous a spec t s to th i s . Of cou r se , you ha ve

men t i oned that a t t he same t i me you we re i nvo l ved i n the Leopo l d S t ree t S h u l

and you 1 ve had con s ta n t a t ta c hmen t s to J uda i sm .

A . The r i tua l i s the three deg ree s . l t 1 s based e n t i re l y a s a f ramework on K i ng

So l omon and t he bu i l d i ng o f t he f i r s t temp l e i n J e r u sa l em . Tha t i s t he genera l

mot i f . Now i n t he h i g he r bod i e s , so-ca l l e d , t he re a re some deg ree s wh i ch

i n one o r two cases u se J e s u s a s the exemp l a r , not f rom t he C h r i st i an re l i g i ou s

p o i n t , but f rom the brothe r l y v i ewpo i n t . On t he othe r han d , there 1· s one

Ma son i c body i n to wh i ch ve ry few J ews, I wou l d ven tu re to say , make app l i ca t i oh

ca l l ed the Comma nd e ry Kn i g h t 1 s Temp l a r . They 1 re t he men t h a t ma rch and have

un i forms , and t hey t race t he i r a n ce s t r y or say t hey do to t he pe r i od of the

C rusade s . Tha t i s def i n i te l y C h r i s t i a n . And tha t i s the one body of wh i ch

1 1 m not a membe r .

Q . I s tha t i n Roche s te r ? Th i s one . . .

A . Tha t 1 s a l l t hrough the Un i ted S t a tes .

Q. Oh , I see . Th i s i s a n order t h roughout the U n i te d S ta t e s ..

A . Yea .

Q . But w i t h i n the Ma son i c Lodge orga n i za t i on ?

A . l t . . . i t ' s recog n i zed a s a Ma son i c body by o u r G rand Lodge .

Q . I n p r i nc i p l e i t i s non - secta r i a n , i n p ra c t i ce does i t break down i n to . . . ?

A . I n p r i nc i p l e a s we l l a s i n p ra c t i ce i t i s de f i n i te l y C h r i s t i a n ..

Q , De f · · l n 1 te l y Ch r i s t i an ?

I n te rv i ew w i t h He rman Sara chan

A . Ye s . Kn i g ht 1 s Temp l a r a re def i n i te l y C hr i s t i an .

Q. Why do you t h i n k s o many Jews a re a t t ra cted to th i s ?

A . I wou l d say that ve ry few J ews . .

Q. We l l , we 1 re t a l k i ng n ow about spec i f i c .

A . Y e a , Kn i g h t 1 s Temp l a r .

Q . Oh , I see .

Page 5 1

A . But the ot he rs . . . For examp l e , ta l k i ng aga i n . . . I to l d you a bou t the

bas i c t h r ee d e g r ee s , b l ue l i nes a s we ca l l t hem , a n d the re a re 3 1 l odges i n

Mon roe C o unty . Tha t 1 s based upon K i ng So l omon , t he b u i l d i ng of t he temp l e .

Now i n Sco t t i s h r i te , you may remembe r tha t I men t i oned to you tha t from t he

fou r t h to t he t h i r ty - second degree i s ca l l ed Sco t t i s h r i te even thoug h Scot l a nd

n eve r ha d a n y t h i ng to do w i th i t . Some of t hose deg ree s have a C h r i st i a n

ove rtone , not d ef i n i te l y C h r i s t i a n , b u t u s i ng J e s u s a s the exemp l a r . O n the

other hand one of t hose deg rees i s ba sed upon t he s tory of Joseph and h i s

b re t h ren . I t ha ppen s t h a t I have ta ken the p a r t i n t he d rama . . . every deg ree

ha s a d rama to d rama t i ze t he l e s son , t ha t I took the pa rt of Jacob . And a t

l ea s t one o f the men t ha t wo rk w i t h me ca l l s me Dad eve ry t i me he sees me ,

so t ha t by i n l a rge eve ry on e of them i s non- secta r i an excep t for ce r ta i n of

them , as I say , us i ng t he exemp l a r . I n o t he r s i t 1 s t he M i dd l e Ages , K i ng

R i cha rd t he L i on hea r t ed def i es t he Pope and deg ree s of t ha t . . o f tha t type .

Q. So t he spec i f i c r i tua l va r i es f rom one l odge to the nex t ?

A . We l l , i n the . . . i n b l ue l odge there a re nea r l y a thousand l odges i n th i s

s ta t e , every one of them ha s the same r i t ua l s compa red a n d s uperv i sed by

G rand Lodge . The re 1 s a g rand l ec t u re r t ha t goes f rom one a rea to anothe r to

s ee t he r i t ua l . He a l so n ow . . . and t he re wa sn 1 t twen t y yea rs a g o , the (?e

a l so i s n ow a n off i c i a l s tanda rd wo r k w i t h the secret work i n code ; but , i n

t h i s s ta te every l od ge uses the same r i tua l a s we d o � I n mos t s t a tes they

I n te rv i ew w i t h He rma n Sa rachan Page 52

A . ( Con t i n ued ) ha ve a s ta n da rd r i t ua l . Some s ta te s do not . Some s ta tes

have e i t he r seve ra l o r t hey L re ra t he r l oose a bout i t . B u t as I sa i d , eve ry

s i ng l e g rand l odge i s s o l e and sove re i gn , dec i de s i t s own r i t ua l a nd i t s own

l aws , a l t houg h t he bas i c l aws a re u s ua l l y the same .

Q . The fact t ha t you d rama t i ze the J oseph a n d J acob stor i e s f rom the B i b l e and

use t he i mage of Ki n g S o l omon a n d temp l e , i s t ha t un i q ue to F l owe r C i ty o r i s

tha t a gene ra l . . . ?

A . No , t h i s i s . . . t h i s i s Scot t i s h r i te i n fou rteen s ta tes .

Q. OK.

A . And eve ry one o f t hem u s e s t he s ame .

Q. The same refe rence to t he B i b l e ?

A . Now l t m ta l k i ng a bout t he fou rth to t he t h i r ty � s econd deg ree .

Q . OK.

A. Yea.

Q. OK. F i ne .

A . Yea , t hey . . . the i r r i t ua l i s a lmos t ent i re l y p r i n ted , excep t fo r a very l i t t l e

s ec ret wor k l i ke the pa s sword a nd s t uff l i ke t ha t .

Q . I see . We won L t get i n to the p a s swords he re , w i l l we ?

A . N o . My own fee l i ng i s those a re not te r r i b l y i mpor t an t .

Q. They 1 re not i mpor ta n t anyway . B u t , i t g i ves a sen se pe rhap s of . . . of a

c l ose- kn i t g r o u p .

A . Ye s , yes .

Q. I n t h a t sen s e i t i s i mportan t .

A . I n t ha t sen se i t i s i mporta n t .

E N D OF TAP E 1 , S I DE A ( I n te rv i ew I I )

I n te rv i ew w i t h H E RMAN SARACHAN J un e 22 , 1 97 6 B y Denn i s Kl e i n

I n terv i ew I I Tape 1 S i d e B.

P a g e 53

Q. Th i s i s Denn i s Kl e i n . We a re ta l k i ng wi t h M r . H e rman S a ra chan . Th i s i s

Tape No . 2 , S i de B . wa n ted t o a s k spec i f i ca l l y why t he re a re a l a rg e

n umbe r of Jews w i t h i n t he F l owe r C i ty [odge a n d how l a rge tha t g roup i s ?

A . O u r membe rs h i p n ow i s a bout 450 .

Q. W i t h i n t he F. ·l,owe r C i ty Lod g e?

A . Yes . And a s I s a i d i n t he othe r t h i r ty l odges t he re p roba b l y a re somewhe re

a bou t the s ame n umber s ca t tered t h rough t he l odge s .

Q. So F l owe r C i ty i s n ot out s ta n d i ng t ha t way ?

A . I n a certa i n sen se , yes . beca use ;wh i le the r e 1 s n o s uch t h i ng as a J ew i sh l odge ,

yet i t i s recog n i zed a s be i ng a l mos t e n t i re l y composed o f J ews .

Q. Wa s t h i s the ca s e i n 1 92 6 when you f i r s t j o i ned ?

A . Ye s , t h i s i s . . . t h i s wa s charte red by a dozen Jews who we re members o f

othe r l odges beca u s e on l y membe r s c a n pet i t i on for a cha r te r . And i t wa s

s t a r ted a s a l oqge to wh i ch more Jews we re a t t racted t han the non .

Q. Wa s t ha t on e rea son why you j o i ned F l owe r C i ty ?

A . l t 1 s t he on l y l odge that I kn ew a n y t h i ng a bout . I f I had known another Mason

c l ose to me and he sa i d why don • t you don 1 t Cor i n t h i an Temp l e ? I p roba b l y

wou l d have sa i d , oh , 1 1 d be happy t o . Beca u se a t tha t t i me I wa s n t t awa re

t h a t F l owe r C i ty con s i sted ent i re l y of J ews . I knew , of course , t ha t the

Ma ster a n d t he Sec retary we re J ews . knew t ha t these t hree men a t H i c key ,

who on e n oon we re t a l k i n g to me a nd I s ta rted to a s k ques t i ons, we re Jews .

B u t I hadn 1- t a ny i dea t ha t F l owe r C i ty Lodge wa s a l odge con s i s t i ng a t that

t i me of , I t h i n k , a l l bu t a bout fou r or f i ve who we re J ews .

I n te rv i ew w i t h He rma n S a ra chan Page 54

Q . As t ime ha s e l a p sed , do you fee l t he fa ct that t here a re p r i ma r i l y Jews s t i l l

i n F l owe r C i ty lodge has ma de a d i ffe rence fo r you i n you r own a t tachmen t to

Ma son i c Lodge F r ee Ma s on ry?

A . The chances a r.e that i f I had become a membe r o f a n y othe r l odge , a s j u s t a

membe r , I wou l d have ta ken t he pa t h o f j u s t be i ng on t he s i de l i ne s , a t tend i ng

t he meet i n g s eve ry so often , a n d i t 1 s doubt f u l i f I wou l d have become a c t i ve .

The rea s on why I became ac t i ve wa s beca use I knew many of t he men a n d t he

Ma s t e r i n 1 93 1 , f i ve yea rs a ft e r I j o i ned , a n d i nc i den ta l l y I ha d g i ven a ta l k

on F ree Ma son ry p r i o r to t ha t for my own l odge , a nd t h i s Ma s t e r sa i d to me ,

Herma n 1 1 d l i ke you t o go i n l i n e . Now i n . . . i n mos t Ma son i c l odg es ,

pe rhaps a l l of them , before a man becomes Ma s t e r he wor ks, a s i t 1' S ca J J ed ,

t h roug h t he cha i r s . He goes th roug h e i t he r ten o r n i ne or e i g h t s tage s . One

yea r at a t i me , p rog ress i ng un t i l he becomes Ma s te r . Th i s Ma s te r , whom I had

known fa i r l y we l l , of cou r se , a s ked me to go i n l i n e . I wen t i n to l i ne , a n d

f i na l l y reached Ma s t e r .

Q. OK.

A . May d i g res s a momen t ?

Q . S u r e .

A . J u s t by way of i n fo rma t i on t o s tate t ha t wh i l e I wa s a t H i ckey�F reema n

orga n i zed a symp hony orche s t ra , wh i ch I cond uc ted , wh i c h gave conc e r t s for a

n umbe r of yea r s . I have t he a c t ua l n umbe r o f yea rs . . . And i n t hose yea r s

a l s o , I became a Scou t Comm i s s i oner , a D i s t r i c t Scout Comm i s s i one r . T h e a rea j

i s d i v i ded i n t o , I t h i n k , ha l f a dozen d i s t r i c t s . My memory i s gett i ng a l i t t l e

s hort on t hat . And I wa s a D i s t r i ct Scout Comm i s s i on e r .

Q. For wha t . . . fo r wha t orga n i za t i on ?

A . Scout i ng ..

Q . For t he Boy Scou t s ?

I nt e rv i ew w i th He rman Sa ra chan Page 5 5

A . Yes . S o , wha t I ' m t ry i ng to s a y i s m y i n te re s t s we re a l so i n othe r d i rect i on s .

And wor ked on Commun i ty Chest as capta i n and as a d i st r i c t cha i rma n , a n d

the Un i ted Jewi s h We l fa re Fund , j us t b y way of i n d i ca t i ng m y i n te re s t s we ren ' t

t horough l y t he synagog u e a nd Ma son s .

Q. OK .

A . Now yo u go on w i t h you r q u e s t i ons .

Q. Now wan ted to come ba c k a l i t t l e l a te r to you r a c t i v i ty i n t h i s symphon y .

t h i n k t ha t ' s an i n te r e s t i ng a spect . We ' l l t a l k a bout t h a t i n a secon d . I t

i n t r i g ue s me , I can ' t he l p but ma ke compa r i son s i n my own m i nd, a s you ta l k

a bout t he Mason i c Lodge , to my own s tud i es of t he B ' na i B ' r i t h , w i t h t he

obv i ou s d i f fe rence t ha t t he B ' na i B ' r i t h i s avowed l y Jew i s h , whe reas Free

Ma son ry i s a vowed l y non-secta r i a n . W i th t ha t one maj o r excep t i on , I can L t

he l p b u t not i ce t he pa ra l l e l s i n nomen c l a t u r e , u s e of t he t e rm " g ra n d l odge"

for examp l e , i n p r i nc i p l es , i n i t s , you know , q ua s i - sec recy . Rea l l y , I mean

i t ' s . . . i t ' s rema r ka b l e how c l ose I t h i n k these two o rg a n i za t i on s a re .

A . I can u n d e r s tand that .

Q. Ha ve you eve r . . .

A . I wa s a membe r of B ' na i B ' r i t h for some yea r s .

Q. You we re a s we l l ? I n Roche s t e r ?

A . I n Roche ste r .

Q. Do you t h i n k tha t pa ra l l e l ex i s t s , a re t hey ve ry c l os e ?

A . I wou l d s ay there ' s . . . 1he re i s some resem b l a n ce , yes .

Q. Tha t exp l a i ns you r act i v i ty bot h i n B ' na i B ' r i t h and . . . When d i d you j o i n

the B 1 na i B ' r i t h ?

A . A good many yea r s ago . I rea l l y shou l dn ' t te l l you t h i s , b u t I w i l l a n d you

c an e ra s e i t f rom the tape . B ' na i B ' r i t h ha s a j un i or g ro up , AZA7

Q. A . . . AZA . AZA , r i g ht .,

I n te rv i ew w i th He rma n Sa ra c han Page 56

A . ( Con t i nued ) And my son wa s a p p roached to become a member . He came to

me a n d sa i d , o h , B ' na i B t r i th i s a f i ne o rg an i za t i on and t he you t h g roup i s

a f i n e o r g a n i za t i on , you go a head and . • . and j o i n i t . S o , he p u t i n h i s

pet i t i on a n d wa s b l ackba l l ed . Tha t sou red me on B Ln a i B L r i t h a n d I d ropped

out .

Q . We 1 1 ,

A . Now why wa s h e b l a c kba l l ed ? Beca u se one o f t he membe r s o f t ha t cha p t e r rose

and sa i d t ha t h i s pa ren t s , t h i s a pp l i can t '· s pa ren t s , we re respon s i b l e for

my fa t h e r d i vorc i n g my mothe r . So t ha t was t he rea son he g i ve ' em for b l a c k­

ba l l i n g the boy . The t r u t h of t he ma t te r wa s t ha t we ha d not h i ng to do w i t h

i t . The . . . t he fa t he r wa s an unc l e of my w i fe '· s , but so fa r a s t he i r

r e l a t i on s h i p t o one anothe r , we had n ot t he s l i g h t e s t i nvol vement . We d i dh ' t

even know a bout i t u n t i l we hea r d t ha t t hey had been d i vo rced . But , even i f

i t we re t rue , to t a ke i t out on an i nnocen t youn g s ter , t ha t emb i t te red me .

d ropped ou t of B ' na i B ' r i t h .

Q . How l on g we re you a mem be r of B ' na i B ' r i t h ?

A . Oh , for a ha l f a dozen yea r s .

Q . I t rea l l y wa s t hen noth i ng to do w i t h t he p r i nc i p l es o r . . .

A . No .

Q. • t he pu rpos e s of B ' na i B ' r i t h ? I t wa s ove r t h i s persona l i ty p rob l em .

D i d you f i nd you r a ff i l i a t i on w i t h B 1 na i B ' r i th t o b e u sefu l d u r i ng t h a t

pe r i od t houg h ?

A . I wa s n ot a ve ry act i ve membe r . I pa i d m y d ue s , I a t tended a few meet i ng s

a nd tha t wa s a bout a l l .

Q. Ma son ry rea l l y was you r .

A .. Ma son ry wa s my .

Q . • • • a c t i v i t y .

I n t e rv i ew w i t h He rma n Sa rachan

A . Yea .

Page 5 7

Q. Wa s . . . wa s t he Ma son i. c l od ge , or whe reve r you had met , t he F l owe r C i ty

Lodg e l oca ted i n t he J osep h Avenue a r ea ?

A . A l l l odges in t h i s c i ty meet at t he Ma son i c Temp l e . Or i g i na l l y t he Ma son i c

Temp l e wa s on C l i n t on Avenue N o rt h , not fa r f rom Ma i n St reet . Then i n 1 930 ,

i t wa sn '· t ver y ma n y yea r s ;a fte r I became a membe r , t he bu i l d i ng . . . the

p resent bu i l d i ng , one of t he o u t s t and i ng Ma son i c bu i l d i ng s i n the s ta te , wa s

e rected a n d a l l l odges meet i n t ha t bu i l d i ng .

Q. Whe re i s t h i s l ocated ?

A . O n Ea st Ma i n S t reet n ea r

b l ood ban k , t he Red C ross .

Q. OK.

. . corn e r of Pr i n c e . I t ' s j u s t oppos i te t he

A . 8 75 , t ha t l s some d i s ta nce sou t h .

Q . I . . . I read here i n t he p r i mer tha t a n umbe r of soc i a l a n d rec rea t i ona l

ac t i v i t i e s a re spon sored . You men t i oned some . I t s t r uck me a s I read t h ro u g h

th i s tha t among t hose t ha t a r e ce l ebra ted a re C h r i s tma s , t he ho l i da y o f

C h r i s tma s . Wou l d t here be any con f l i c t i n you r own m i n d o r i n othe r m i n d s of

J ews be l on g i n g to Ma son ry between t he spon sor i ng of these k i nd of ac t i v i t i es

a n d you r Jewi s h . . . ?

A . Eve ry one o f t he 3 0 l odges have a C h r i s tma s p a r t y for t he i r k i ds , F l owe r C i t y

Lodg e has a C ha n u kka h J)a rty for t he i r k i d s . So t he same . . i t 1 s t he same

pe r i od , of cou r se . ' Ca u se C han u kka h a nd C h r i s tma s fa l l c l ose t o one a nothe r .

Q. I s ee .

A . Yea , bu t o urs i s a C ha n u kka h p a r ty , n o t a C h r i s tma s pa rt y .

Q. So there wa s no conf 1 i ct t hen 7

A . N o .

Q . l n . i n fact , t h e re ':-:s an a dvan tage t hen to have a g roup of l i ke-m i nded . . ·

I n te rv i ew w i t h He rman Sa rachan

A . wou l d s ay s o .

Page 58

Q . • • l i ke-m i n d ed men , so t ha t t he con f l i ct s do not a r i se . W i t h i n t he Jewi s h

t r ad i t i on t he re i s p rophecy a n d a s t ron g empha s i s o n h uman b ro t he r hood a n d

many o f t he i dea l s a nd p r i nc i p l es tha t a re fos te red b y Ma son r y . D o you f i nd

t ha t the i dea l s and p r i nc i p l e s cons i s ten t w i t h t he p r i nc i p l es of the J ew i s h

re l i g i on , wh i ch you a re a t tached to , or i s t he re no compa r i son a t a l l between

t he two?

A . They a re ve ry much i n ha rmon y . V e ry much i n ha rmony .

Q. And you sense t h a t ha rmon y ?

A . Yes .

Q. That 1 s very i nt e res t i n g . 1 � 1 1 t e l l you why I f i nd t ha t i n t ere s t i ng beca u se

t h i s seems t o be a way tha t ma ny J ews , th i s i s my own hypo t hes i s , my own wor k ,

to exp r e s s t hemse l ves and the i r fe e l i ng s a bout l i fe , t he concep t i on o f l i fe ,

a n d h uma n i ty t hroug h organ i za t i on s such a s t he Ma son i c l odge . And i t i s an

i mporta n t re l a t i on s h i p a s f a r as 1 1 ve been a b l e to . . . to . . . to und e r s t a n d .

A . We l l , l et me g i ve you one for i n s ta nce , the re a re othe r s . For some s i xteen

yea rs or s o , we have been p u b ] i s h i ng i n Mon roe Coun ty a Ma son i c mon th l y ca l l ed

1 1Mon roe Ma son i c News . • • F r om t he f i rs t i s s ue . . . we l l , i n t he f i rst i s sue

they repub l i s hed t h i s pamp h l et . S ta rt i ng w i t h the second i s sue I have been

a co l umn i s t, under the t i t l e 1 1 Dea r B ro t he r He rma n , 1 1 i n wh i c h I a n swe r q uest i on s

o n Ma s on i c h i s to r y , s ymbo l i sm , o r a n y t h i ng re l a t i n g t o Ma son r y . I rece i ved

a q ue s t i on . . . we l l , l et me p u t i t t h i s way . I n one o f t he deg rees wh i ch I

s ta t ed has p e r ha p s a C h r i s t i an ove r tone , bec a u se J es u s i s u sed a s t he exemp l a r ,

a t t he req ue s t of t he head of t he Sco t t i s h R i te , who 1 s ca l l ed Commander- i n ­

Ch i ef , o f t hat yea r I p repa red a t a l k to g i ve before t h i s p a r t i cu l a r deg ree

i n wh i ch I s ta t ed t ha t j u s t a s t he u se of So l omon a nd t he b u i l d i ng of t he

temp l e wa s not i n tended a s a p r es en ta t i on or a d i sserta t i oh of J uda i sm , e i t he r

I n te rv i ew w i th He rma n Sa r a c ha n Page 59

A. ( Con t i nued )

Tha t few .. .

i s t he use of J es u s i n tended a s a p resen t a t i on of C h r i s t i a n i ty .

man y of them , we had a g ro up o f cand i d a te s , to many o f you

J e s. us i s of t he es sence of G - d , to some of us he t s a g rea t pe rsona l i ty , a

g reat teacher who J i ved a n d taught and d i ed d u r i ng the t u r bu l en t yea r s und e r

Rome . So , 1 1 ve been g i v i n g t ha t t a l k now for a n umbe r of yea r s . One o f t he

men who hea rd i t two yea r s a go wrote me and sa i d , you say he 1· s a g reat

per sona l i ty , why don •: t you a ccep t h i m as a Mes s i a h? He sa i d so i n t he

New Tes tament , why don 1 t J ews accep t h i m ? And I d i dn 1 t a n swe r t ha t i n my

co l umn , by the way . l n . t he mea n t i me , he m u s t have ta l ked to a coup l e of o t he rs ,

and a coup l e of ot hers wrote to me , we 1 d be i n teres ted to hear wha t you have

to s ay . So I . . . a bo ut a yea r l ater , aga i n at Ea s te r season , I wrote a

. . . i n my c o l umn a n a n swe r i n wh i c h I po i ri ted o u t tha t fo r nea r l y two

t hou s and yea r s Jews ha d been p u t to a l l k i nd s of suffer i ng , pe rsecu t i on , i n

t he n ame of J e s u s . And con sequen t l y , J ews ca nnot a ccept h i m a s a Mes s i a h , no

ma t t er wha t t he i r . . . the i r fee l i ng was . And t hen I went a head and ca ta l ogued

a n umber of ca ses , r i g ht down to t he p resent da y . And a n umber of men to l d me

a f te rwa rds t ha t t hey l earned a g rea t dea l out of t he ca ta l ogu i ng , o u t of

s ta t i ng pog roms , t he per sec u t i on s under t he Pope and t he y e l l ow badge a h d

t h i ng s of t ha t sor t . They l ea rned somet h i n g .

Q. G o a head .

A . We l l , I wa s g o i ng to s a y I have on l y one rea ct i on f rom a . . . an anonymous

wr i ter who sa i d that maybe those J ews dese rved i t a s much as t hese Jews . And

t hen he ca t a l og ued twen ty-f i ve peop l e i n t h i s coun t ry , l i ke t he Rosen ber g s

an d ot her peop l e , who had been j a i l ed beca u se of c r i me . Tha t wa s t he on l y

Q.

n ega t i ve reac t i on t ha t I got , a n d tha t wa s a nonymou s .

i t . Tha t I d i dn 1 t touc h .

cou l d neve r an swe r

When you th i n k a bout t ha t thoug h , h i s react i on , t ha t rea c t i on . Wha t do you

I n te rv i ew wi th He rman Sa rachan Page 60

Q . ( Con t i n u ed ) t h i n k a bout tha t 7

A . Oh , I t h i n k t ha t even some Mason s a re b i goted .. Tha t •· s a l l I can say . I t

Q .

wa s a . . . I th i n k tha t .. . . now he . . . I g uess t h a t he may be a l awyer ,

1 cause we have a n umbe r of l awye rs , • ca u s e he wa s a b l e to know of a l l of t he se

ca s e s , un l ess he d i d a n awf u l l ot of re sea rc h . B u t , who he i s , maybe somebod y

t ha t I meet .

I f you cou l d g i ve me some add i t i on a l ma te r i a l s on t h i s . i n othe r words ,

wha t p o i n t we re you ma k i n g when you ca ta l og u ed pog rom s , t he y e l l ow badges ,

wha t wa s the po i n t ?

A . The po i n t wa s t hat J ews cou l dn 1 t even con s i d e r h i m a s t he Mes s i ah i n whose

Q.

name a l l o f those a t roc i t i es we re . . t ha t wa s my po i n t . And I a l so men t i oned

t ha t there a re J ews who don 1 t recog n i ze h i m a t a l l . B u t I t h i n k man y of u s do

con s i d e r h i m o bj ect i ve l y as a g rea t pe r s ona l i ty . And I sa i d that i n my ta l k

too befo re va r i ous g roups .

The re wa s , know , i n t he N i neteen t h Cen tu ry , apparen t l y f rom the way you 1 re

ta l k i ng i t 1 s a l i ve i n t he Twen t i e t h Cen t u ry , t ha t . . . have been made between

t he h i s tor i ca l a nd the B i b l i ca l Chr i st .

A . Yea .

Q. You wou l d make t ha t d i s t i nct i on t hen , t he B i b l i ca l C h r i s t who p reaches an

mess i a n i sm i s somet h i ng you do not a ccep t , but h i s tor i ca l C h r i s t , t he f i g u re

a n d wha t he rep resen ted i n anc i en t t i me i s some t h i ng for a l l of u s to unde r-·

s tand a n d a ppr ec i a t e .

A . Ye s . I . . . I hones t l y be l i eve t ha t . May I a l so men t i on t ha t t he . . . t he

Masons i n o u r a rea and i n other a reas of New York know t ha t I 1 m not on l y a

Jew, a n obse rvan t Jew a c t i ve i n my synagogue , t hey accept i t . And I have a

g rea t ma ny f r i en d s , d evot ed f r i en d s . don L t d r i ve a t n i g h t , and I don 1 t d r i ve

much d u r i ng t he day e i t he r , bu t I don 1' t d r i ve a t n i g ht .. Tomor row n i g ht the re 1 s

I n te rv i ew w i t h He rman Sa ra c han Page 6 J

A. ( Con t i nued ) a meet i n g ca l l ed . A l l I have to do i s ca l l up one man ,

who h a s to come qu i t e a d i s tance , to p i ck me u p . He L s gonna p i ck m e up a n d

ta ke m e t o . . . no p ro b l em a t a l l . And I wen t a week ago for Sen i or Week

to La ke P l ac i d . had r i de , t hey t rea ted me roya l l y and I wa s the re . Tha t

wa s a M a s on i c . . . Th i s weeken d , t he pa s t weekend , wa s the i n ves t i t u re o f t he

new off i ce r s of G ran d Lod ge . Aga i n , had a r i de up and bac k , and peop l e who

t reated me roya l l y . Devoted f r i en d s . You don t t need to p u t that on t he tape .

Q. N o , t ha t 1 s f i n e . Tha t 1 s ve ry i n t e re s t i n g . I n fa c t , i t spea ks pe rha ps t ha t

t hese a r e you r c l osest f r i en d s , t hose w i t h i n the Ma son i c Lodg e ?

A . And a n y n umbe r of men w i l 1 meet me a n d offe r the i r con g ra t u l a t i on s upon my

hav i n g been honored . J u s t as s i ncere a s t hey can pos s i b l y be .

Q. Tha t 1 s ve ry n i ce . You s a i d t ha t a t on e po i n t t ha t Ma son ry does n ot wor k i n

a vac u um . Le t me a sk a very spec i f i c q ue s t i on a bout t h i s . Ha s the re eve r

been i nc i d en ces o f even t s i n the pas t f i ft y yea rs , t ha t � s a p p rox i ma te l y the

n umbe r o f yea r s you • ve be l onged to t he Ma son i c l od g e , where the F l owe r C i t y

Lodge ha s responded to . n ow , 1 1 m ta l k i ng spec i f i ca l l y beca use i t i s a

p r i ma r i l y Jew i s h l odge , wa s t here an y spec i f i ca l l y Jew i s h func t i on t ha t t he

Ma son i c l odge , F l owe r C i ty Lodge , ha s s p on s ored o r ha s con t r i buted to the

C i t y of Rocheste r ?

A . Let me an swe r i t t h i s way . N umber one , some of ou r mem be r s occas i ona l l y refer

to i t as t he J ewi sh l od g e , bu t t he re L s n o s uch t h i ng . The re can 1 t be . And

t h e re a re l odge s comp r i sed a l most en t i re l y of J ews . But ou r l odge for man y

yea r s made a con t r i bu t i on , a n a nn u a l con t r i bu t i on t o t he Un i ted J ew i s h We l fa re

Fund . Th i s yea r s o fa r we haven 1 t because we 1 re runn i ng i n t he red , so we

d on • t know how we • re gon na come out .. B u t up un t i l th i s yea r eve ry s i ng l e yea r

we •· ve ma de ou r con t r i but i on to t he Un i ted J ew i s h We l fa re Fund .

Q . Wha t about t he Commun i ty Che s t ? Do you a l so g i ve to t he Commun i ty Ches t ?

I n te rv i ew w i th H e rman Sa rac han Page 62

A. For a t i me we we re g i v i ng to t ha t , but when t h i ng s a few yea r s ago began to

be t i g ht , we we re g i v i ng a mod e s t s um , we f i na l l y d i scon t i n ued .

Q. V e ry s t rong sense o f s upport for t he Jew i s h We l fa re F u n d ?

A . Ye s , an d i nd i v i d ua l member s a re ve ry act i ve . Ou r Trea s u re r , M i s te r S i l ve r s te i n ,

i s on e o f t he mos t ac t i ve men i n the We l fa re Fund , a s we l l a s t he Jew i s h Home ,

a s we l l a s i n o t he r Jew i s h ac t i v i t i es .

Q . When you refer to t he F l owe r C i t y Lodge a s t he J ew i s h l odge . . .

A . I don 1 t .

Q . B u t the r e a re s ome peop l e t ha t d o ?

A . Occa s i ona l l y , yea .

Q . I n t he Ma son i c organ i za t i on ?

A . No , w i t h i n o u r own member s .

Q . W i t h i n you r own mem ber s ?

A . Yea .

Q. I was g on na a s k .

A . One o r two .

Q . I was gonna a s k , b u t I t h i n k the a n swe r i s 1 1 N o , 1 1 tha t t he r e wa s some sense

of deroga tory i m p l i ca t i on , a J ewi s h l odg e , you know.

A . Yea .

Q.. B u t the re .

A . They don 1· t ca l l i t . . .. b u t I w i l l say t h i s , t h at two or t hree t i mes d u r i ng

recen t . . . du r i ng t he pa s t yea rs , and l t ve been Sec ret a ry fo r 33 yea rs , t he

Sec r eta ry of a n o t he r l odge wou l d ca l l me up and say , He rman , t he re 1 s a man

here who wan t s to pet i t i on ou r l odg e , bu t rea l l y t h i n k he wou l d he ha pp i er

i n you r l odge. He doesn 1 t unders tand t he na ture of l odge s . Of cour se , my

a n swe r i s t h a t 1 1 1 1 be g l ad to send h i m a pet i t i on . Tha t happened e i t he r

tw i ce o r t h ree t i mes d u r i ng a l l t hese years . A n d t hose men I know wou l dn 1 t

I n te rv i ew w i th He rman Sa rachan Page 63

A . ( Con t i nued ) rej ect t he a pp l i ca n t beca use he t s J ew i s h and send h i m to

u s . Becau se t hey we re men whom I honored a n d t r u s t ed .

Q . A r e t he re a n y non �·Jews i n t he F l owe r C i ty Lodge?

A . We h av e th ree , I t h i n k , n ow.

Q . Are t hey recen t member s ?

A . No , been s ome t i me . . . recen t l y membe r s h i p ha s been ve ry sca rce . T h e p rese n t

younge r gene ra t i on have so ma ny othe r i n te res t s and des i res and va l ues a n d

coun t ry c l u b appea l s to t hem more than a f ra t e rna l o rde r .

Q . So member s h i p i s decreas i ng ?

A . Yes .

Q . Th i s i s one rea son for t he p rob l ems w i t h the mon ey ?

A . Tha t ' s r i g ht . A t o u r peak membe rs h i p , wh i ch wa s p ro ba b l y a dozen yea rs ago ,

we we re j u s t un d e r 600 . You see we ' ve l os t 2 5% , down to 450 .

Q. I s t ha t con t i n u i ng to dec l i ne ?

A . I t l ooks a s t hough t h i s yea r we w i l l ho l d ou r own . You musn '· t forget t h a t

the o l der men a re get t i ng o l d e r , and we have ten , twe l ve , f i f teen dea t hs a

yea r . . You see ? So we have t o have a J ot of mem bers to rep l ace t hem . Don t t

g e t tha t .

Q. Wha t a bout t he med i a n age i n F l ower C i t y Lodg e ? Wha t wou l d ypu p u t i t a t

a p p r ox i ma te l y ?

A . We ' ve ha d some younger men come i n . I wou l d say t he med i an age wou l d be

be tween f i f ty a n d f i f ty�f i ve , the med i an . And ma ny of o u r men a re i n t he i r

seven t i es a n d even e i g ht i es .

Q. OK. When . . . when . . . when l ec t u res a r e p resen ted to the l odge , two

q ue s t i on s . One ; a re t hey eve r p r i n te d ? A re t hey eve r p ub l i s hed i n any form

t hese l ect u res ?

A . I t depen d s o n who and what . Fo r examp l e , when I gave t ha t ta l k o n t h e ea r l y

I n te rv i ew w i th He rman Sa rachan Page 64

A. (Con t i nued ) h i s tory tha t wa s p u b l i shed i n tlie Ame r i can Lodge of Resea rch ..

I wrote i t ou t and I sent t hem a cop y . And i n c i denta l l y i t wa s a f t e r t h a t

t h a t I was e l ect ed an a c t i ve membe r .

Q . So t hey l i ked i t ?

A . Appa r en t l y . Th i s book ha s had some ve ry f i ne rev i ews . l t 1' s i n a n umbe r o f

1 i b r a r i e s , i n c l ud i ng Toron t o , Ca nada . And 1 1 ve had some m i ghty f i ne commen t s

a bou t i t . A n d peop l e have read i t bec a u se women have sa i d to me , oh , I enj oyed

t ha t book v e ry much.

Q. I n teres t i ng .

A . And t hey l ea rn ed some t h i ng a bout Ma son ry .

Q . W i t h i n o r w i t hout t he Mason i c l odge? Have peop l e out s i de Ma son i c l odge a l so

responded w i t h . . ?

A . Tha t I wou l d n 1 t know. 1 Ca use t hose peop l e wou l dn 1 t be apt to .. . . none of

t hem have eve r come . .

Q . I mean fo r examp 1 e , 1 1 ve s tud i ed aga i n ve ry c l ose l y t he B 1· na i B 1· r i t h , but

yet 1 1 m not a membe r of B 1 na i B 1 r i t h . So , i t wou l dn 1 t s up r i se me t ha t

s omeone wou l d p i ck t h a t u p a n d . . .

A . Th i s book i s i n t he l oca l l i bra ry .

Q . The l oca l l i b r a ry .

A . Yea . They , I t h i n k . I t h i n k t hey boug ht . . . I th i n k I p resen ted them

one copy a n d t hey bou g ht a n o t he r on e , i f I remember correct l y . B u t I . . .

Q . Go a head .

A . The re was no roya l ty on t h i s .

Q. No roya 1 t i es .

A . I wou l dn 1 t a c cep t i t , and I s a i d i f t he re 1 s a n y prof i t s beyon d t he cost of

p r i n t i ng , a nd t he comm i t tee tha t han d l ed t he p r i n t i ng p u t the p r i ce a s l ow

a s they pos s i b l y cou l d to cove r t he p r i n t i ng and a l i t t l e ove r ; i f a ny th i ng

I n te rv i ew w i th Herman Sa rachan Page 65

A . (Con t i n ued ) wou l d be l ef t ove r i t s hou l d g o t o t he Mason i c Serv i ce

B u r ea u , t he Ma son i c B rotherhood Fund . The Brother hood F und s u ppor t s t he

Resea r c h La bora tory a s we l l a s the Home i n U t i ca ..

Q. The second q ue s t i on I had a bout t he l ec t u re s , do they eve r dea l w i t h . . . on

Jew i sh � s u bj ec t s ?

A . Oh , we have 1 ect u re r s on . . . o n Jew i sh s u bj ec t s ?

Q . On Jew i s h s u bj ec t s .

A . t h i nk we ' ve had a spea ke r on t he We l fa re F und s ome yea r s a g o , bu t s pec i f i ca l l y

wou l d say n o , i t wou l d be very u n u s ua l . We ' ve had i t on , wha t , secu l a r

s ubj e c t s l i ke a po l i ce c a p ta i n ta l k i ng a bo u t . . . a bout c r i me and tha t sort

of th i n g . We ' ve ha d m� b ro t he r , who i s n ot a Ma son i nc i d en ta l l y , bu t who

wa s for man y yea rs t he . on t he S tate C r i me Comm i s s i on , so-ca l l ed , to te l l

a bout h i s expe r i ences . So we ' ve had non�Ma son s , a s we l l a s Mason i c s u bj ect s .

Q . I have one mo re q ue s t i on a bout t h i s . I t . . . i t ' s rea l l y on a hunc h , a

hypot hes i s , t ha t you c a n ta l k about t h i s or d i s c red i t i t . I t occ u r red

to me t ha t w i t h t he o r g an i za t i on t h r i ved i n t he 1 92 0 1 s and t he 1 930 ' s , l a rge

member s h i p , a n d t ha t a t l ea s t w i t h i n t he F l owe r C i ty Lodge the re wa s a

maj or i ty o r a l mo s t a unan i m i ty of J ews w i t h i n the organ i za t i on . At t he same

pe r i od . a t t he s ame t i me t here wa s a t l e a s t i n the coun t ry , perhaps not

s o m uch in Roche s te r , some sent i men t of a n t i -Sem i t i sm . D o you t h i n k t he re wa s

a r e l a t i on s h i p be tween t he organ i za t i on of t h i s l odge and i t s l a rge J ew i s h

compos i t i on i n reac t i on to t he sen se o f a n t hSem i t i sm i n th i s coun t r y ? Or i n

t he c i ty i f t here wa s anyt h i ng spec i f i c .

A. Let me a n swe r i t i n t h i s way . Tha t Roc he s t e r by i n l a rge ha s been a s f ree

f r om a n t i -Sem i t i sm a s few c i t i e s . Undou bted l y t here a re a n t i �·Sem i tes i n

Roches te r , and t he re have been , but i n re l a t i on s h i p between t he non �Jews and

t he J ews of t h i s commun i ty has been very good . I men t i on t he fact t ha t when

I n t erv i ew w i t h M r . Herman Sa rachan Page 66

A. ( Con t i n u ed ) the J Y had i t s membe r sh i p d r i ve to r a i se f u n d s t o open t he

bu i l d i Rg , t he cha i rman wa s a ban ke r , non-Jew , a n d t he Trea s u rer wa s a l so a

non -Jew. And tha t . . . a n d t he re we re • . • a n d t he non-J ews as team wo r ke r s

a n d cap ta i n s a nd so fort h . And t ha t 1 s j us t a n o t he r i nd i ca t i on , a n d I t h i n k

a good i nd i ca t i on , o f a good re l a t i on s h i p tha t h a s a l ways ex i s ted . I n Mason ry ,

wou l d say the re i s ve ry l i t t l e becau s e I be l i eve t h a t I wou l d have sen sed

i t i f t he re wa s . I tm t h i n k i ng , for examp l e , and t h i s wa s before t h i s book

wa s p r i n ted , t he l odge up i n Webs te r . . . I t h i n k I wa s the re maybe once to

g i ve a ta l k somet i me p rev i ous l y , ma t t e r of fac t I had . . . d u r i ng a l l t he se

yea r s I 1 Ve s poken i n p r oba b l y every one of t he 30 l odges . At a ny rate , a l l

of a s udden t he . he wa s a j udge , he s t i l l i s a j udge , who had p r eceded

me a s D i st r i ct Deputy a n d whom I knew ve ry we l l , sa i d to me He rman I under s t an d

you 1 re go i ng to be w i t h t he g roup to p u t o n a deg ree i n my l od g e . We have

a s up r i se for you . S u p r i se , wha t k i nd of s u p r i se? We l l , you 1 1 1 see . When

I . . when we had t ha t meet i ng a fte r t he d eg ree t hey . . . they a n nounced

t hat had been e l ected a n hon ora ry mem be r by t he l odge upon t he recommenda t i on

of a l l t he i r pa s t ma s t er s . Why ? wa s neve r v e ry c l ose to t hem . B u t

wha teve r t he reas on , he re a t t he l odge , I don 1 t th J n k t h a t t here . � � maybe

t hey had one Jew, may be n o Jews a s membe r s , a nd here i s t he i r l odge u p i n

Web s te r e l ec t i ng me a n honora ry membe r . And a t t h a t t i me tha t wa s the on l y

l odge . . . a few yea r s l a te r a n other l odge , a nd then a s I sa i d when t h i s

wa s pu b ! i s hed a l l t he l odges e l ec ted me , I have a n i ce p l aq ue they p resen ted

me w i th . They a l l e l ec t ed me honorary membe r .

Q. So t he re 1: s a s t rong . . .

A . What 1 1 m s ay i ng i s kn ow i ng t ha t 1 1·m J ew i s h , know i ng t ha t 1 1 m a c t i ve l y a n d

s o for t h , y e t t h i s l odge a n d a } ] t he ot he r l odges hono red m e w i t h t ha t . So ,

by i n l a rge certa i n l y w ' t h h . . . ' 1 t e l ea d e r s h 1 p 1 W i t h t he a c t i Ve members , t hose

I n t e rv i ew w i t h He rman S a ra c ha n P a g e 6 7

A . ( Con t i nued ) t ha t a t tend meet i ng s , t hose t ha t a re off i ce rs , t he re 1 s

ve ry l i t t l e a n t i -Sem i t i sm t h a t I ' ve eve r been a b l e to see a t a l l .

Q . D u r i ng t he 1 93 0 ' s i s when t he J Y wa s orga n i zed , d i d t he F l owe r C i ty Lodge have

any re l a t i on to t he organ i za t i on and con s t ruct i on of t h a t p roj ec t ?

A . Not a s a l odge a s I remembe r i t , b u t t he i nd i v i dua l s , o f cou r se , we re a l l

a c t i ve , i nd i v i du a l membe r s , off i ce r s a l l we re a c t i ve .

Q. But not a s a l odge , beca u se you men t i oned t ha t a s a l odge you L d g i ven to

the J ew i s h We l fa r e Fund .

A .

Q .

Yea .

But not a s a l odge you ' d g i ven to t he . . ?

A . Yea , but t h Ls wa s g i ven to t he We l fa re Fund a s pa r t of o u r cha r i ta b l e p roj ec t s ,

you s ee ? Our p h i l a n t h ropy . But when i t come s to J ew i s h act i v i ty , the l odge

has been i nv i ted to send rep resenta t i ves to the Federa t i on , and we ' ve a l wa y s

d i sco un ted t ha t because once a ga i n I s ay t ha t l ega l l y a n d t rad i t i ona l l y we 1 re

not a J ew i s h l odg e . We 1 re a l odge con s i s t i ng of men who a re J ews by re l i g i on .

Q . B u t you g i ve to other organ i za t i on s tha t a re not Jew i s h ? I mea n .

A . No , I say t ha t a s a l odge we do not pa r t i c i pate i n a n y Jew i sh ac t i v i t i es l i ke

t he J ew i sh Commun i ty Cen t e r or t he Jewi s h Commun i ty Fede ra t i on or t he Jew i sh

We l fa re Fund , as a l odge . On l y a s i nd i v i d ua l s . . . as i nd i v i d ua l s . .

Q. R i g h t .

A . . . . who a re J ew i s h o r i en t ed or commun i ty m i n ded do we se rve Jewi sh commun i ty .

Q. My p o i n t wa s t ha t the re a re a l ot o f o rgan i za t i on s t ha t suppor t secu l a r

organ i za t i on s , t he Commun i ty C he s t , I be l i eve t ha t you s uppor t . . . he l p

s u p por t t ha t ? So t ha t . . .

A . Tha t ' s from o u r p h i l an t h rop i c f und .

Q . R i g h t . Have you ever been to I s ra e l ?

A .. Yes .

I n t e rv i ew w i t h H e rman Sa ra chan

Q . How . . . how ma ny t i mes ?

A . I wa s t here onc e .

Q . When was t h i s ?

A . We 1 1 , 1 964 I ret i red . 1 965 .

Q . Why d i d you g o t ha t yea r ?

Page 68

A . I t ' s a good q ues t i on . The J ew i s h . . . J Y t hen , now i t '' s t he Jew i sh

Commun i t y Cen ter , gave me a fund wh i c h they sa i d wa s fo r t rave l upon my

ret i remen t . We l l , my w i fe wou l dn ' t go so I wen t myse l f .. Whe re wou l d I go?

To I s rae l .

Q . I t wa s n ' t spec i f i ca l l y des i gn ed for you to go to I s ra e l ? You dec i ded to • . •

A. N o , I cou l d go whe reve r I wa n ted , but they wan ted to g i ve me money to

t ra ve l , enj oy my ret i remen t .

Q. So why d i d you go to I s ra e l ?

A . ' Ca u se I ' ve a l ways been i n t e res ted .. I t has h a d and has o u r s upport to t h i s

d a y . I wou l d ven t u re to s a y t h a t m y w i fe p l an t s mo re t rees , Hada s s a h, J N F ,

our b i l l a t t he end of t he yea r p u t s the Commun i ty Ches t . . . We ou rse l ves

a re s up r i sed a t t he amount tha t i t moun ts up d u r i ng t he yea r . We g l a d l y do

i t .

Q . You r w i fe be l ong s to Hada s sa h ?

A . S he ' s been a member o f Hada s sah s i nce i t s o rgan i za t i on I guess i n Roc hes te r .

Q. Have you be l onged to any Z i on i s t orga n i za t i on s ?

A . I wa s ve ry act i ve i n Z i on i s t d i st r i ct . As a ma t te r o f fact I wa s t he

Sec reta ry . I wa s i n s t rumen ta l i n reorgan i z i ng a t a t i me when t he re we re

p ract i ca l l y no Z i on i s t s i n t he c i ty .

Q. When wa s t h i s ?

A . Th i s wa s i n t he 1 920 ' s . Yea , we b rought down a n y n umbe r of men , some o f t he

l ead i ng Z i on ' t h I S s e re to s pea k a t meet i n g s , And I was q u i te a c t i ve .

I n te rv i ew w i t h He rman Sa rachan

Q . So t hat )OU were ve ry much t heA p ro..,.Pa l e s t i n e ?

Page 6 9

A . Oh , yes . As a mat te r o f fa ct , t he Reform g roup we re l a rg e l y a n t i -Pa l e st i n e .

They d i d n ' t wan t a Jewi sh s t a te . One of o u r membe rs , who i s a l so a pas t

Ma s ter , wa s a membe r of B ' r i th Kodes h Temp l e . And he wa s we l l -known a s a

spea ke r , an d he wa s i nv i ted to s pea k a g a i n s t t h i s i dea of a J ew i s h s t a te i n

Pa l es t i n e . And wheneve r h e ' d f i n i s h h i s ta l k he ' d say , n ow I s ugges t t ha t

you i n v i te Herman S a ra chan t o g i ve you the o t her s i de o f t he p i c t u r e . And

we had a l ong se r i e s whe re , i n s ubu r ban town s a s we l l a s l oca l churche s a n d

so for t h .

Q. Th i s wa s a se r i e s s pon sored by any g ro u p ?

A . I don ' t know how h e rece i ved t he i n v i t a t i on s , whe t he r i t wa s t h roug h t he . .

t hroug h B ' r i t h Kodesh Temp l e o r how .. B u t , eve ryt i me he spoke he wou l d say

we l 1 now you i n v i te He rman Sa rachan to g i ve you the ot he r s i de o f the p i c t u re .

Q. You we re teac h i ng a t B ' r i t h Kode s h i n t he l 92 0 '· s , d i d t ha t eve r become a

con f l i c t for you ?

A . N o .

Q. You r fee l i n g s a bout t he S t a te of I s r ae l and . . . ?

A . No , beca use tha t wa s p a rt of m y own l i fe . The teach i ng I t a u g h t B i b l e h i s tory ,

t h a t ' s r ea l l y wha t we t a ug ht .

Q. When d i d you f i r s t ta ke a n i n te re s t i n t he S t a t e of I s rae l ?

A . We l l , I wa s a Z i on i st f r om t he ea r l i es t d ays . And I say , I wa s re spon s i b l e

fo r reorga n i z i ng t he Z i on i st d i s t r i ct a s the re we re a l most t he n umber on

on t he f i nger s of one hand of Z i on i s t s t ha t we re member s of the Z i on i st

O rgan i za t i o n of Ame r i ca . And then we bu i l t i t up so t h a t we had , a s I reca l l

i t , nea r l y a t hou sand membe r s i n Roche s te r .

Q . He re i n Rochester .

A . Yes .

I n te rv i ew w i t h He rma n Sa rachan

Q . So you we re respon s i b l e for i ts organ i za t i on ?

A. I wou l d say p ro ba b l y .

Q. That ' s ve ry i n terest i n g .

Page 70

A . We l l , J et me te l l y o u someth i ng , now t ha t y o u men t i on i t . I t seems t h a t I �ve

been respon s i b l e fo r organ i z i ng a numbe r of bod i es , pa r t i cu l a r l y t he Ma son i c

bod i e s . For examp l e , i n 1 940 I organ i zed the B u reau of Ma son i c Ed uca t i on

wh i ch cond ucted c l a s ses for n ew membe rs i n t he p r i nc i p l e s and h i s tory of

Mason r y . And I wa s i t s f i r s t p re s i den t , of t he organ i za t i on , and a l so wa s

on e of t he spea ke rs . Then t h a t wa s 1 94 0 . I n 1 945 or somet h i ng l i ke t ha t

t he B u rea u of Ma son i c Educa t i on organ i zed another schoo l , a schoo l t o teach

r i t ua 1 . to l d you t ha t t he r i t ua l i s s tanda rd . And t he man who teaches

i t i n the s t a te i s a G rand Lodge off i ce r ca l l ed t he G rand Lec t u re r . And the

G rand Lec t u rer p reva i l ed upon me to t a ke over as i n s t r ucto r of t h i s n ew

schoo I t ha t we orga n i zed , t he second schoo 1 . I sa i d I '· 1 1 take i t for one

yea r a nd i t l a sted un t i l . t ha t wa s 1 945 , a n d I wa s tea c he r un t i l 1 969

when I tu rned i t ove r to one whom . my g ra d ua tes whom I had b roug h i n a s

an a s s i s t an t . I n 1 958 I be l i eve i t wa s I organ i zed , t h i s t i me I wa s

re spon s i b l e . . . I organ i zed a t h i rd s c hoo l , s c hoo l for of f i cers of t he

Mason i c l odge ca l l ed the Sc hoo l of Lodge Adm i n i s t ra t i on . And I L m a n

i n s t ructor o f t ha t down to tod�y . And now I ' m p r epa r i ng notes so t hat _1__01-n-� - -­

t u rn i t ove r to anothe r man whom I ' m g room i ng for t ha t j ob . OK? S o that I ' m

an organ i zer . We have i n Mason ry another resea rch organ i za t i on , and

organ i zed a chap te r he re i n Roches ter . We a l so have a . . . I ' m a f ra i d I ' m

ta l k i ng too much a bout . . . a bou t myse l f .

E N D OF TAP E 1 , S I DE B ( I n terv i ew I I )

I n te rv i ew w i t h HERMAN SARAC HAN J un e 22 , I 97 6 By Denn i s Kl e i n

I n te rv i ew I I Tape 2 S i de A

Page 7 1

Q. Th i s i s Den n i s K l e i n t a l k i n g w i t h M r . He rman Sa rachan . We a re now on Ta pe 3 ,

S i de A . Y o u can con t i nue w i t h you r s tory .

A . became . • . we have i n Mon roe County the Ma son i c Se rv i ce Bu rea u , wh i ch i s

a s e rv i ce o rgan i za t i on not on l y for Ma son s but fo r peop l e i n genera l . I t

endea vors to he l p peop l e who a re i n need o f j obs , a l thoug h t ha t i s a very

d i f f i c u l t j o b a t t he p resent t i me . But i t h a s a con s i de ra b l e q uan t i ty of

hosp i ta l s upp l i e s , l i ke wa l ke r s , l i ke hosp i ta l bed s and so for t h , wh i ch a re

a va i l a b l e w i t hou t cha rge to a n y body t ha t i s i n n eed . And t hey ' re con s t an t l y

be i n g u sed . Ma sons , n on -Ma son s , wh i te , b l ac k or wha tever � Tha t i s one of

i t s b i g func t i on s . I t a l so keep s certa i n reco rd s , Ma son i c reco rds and does

a ve ry e l a bo ra t e j ob . 1 952 I became a membe r of t he Boa rd of D i rec tors . I n

1 959 I wa s P res i d en t fo r two yea rs . Wh i l e I wa s P res i den t we e s t a b l i s hed a

D i s t i ng u i s hed Commun i ty Serv i ce Awa rd wh i c h had been awa rded each yea r from

t ha t t i me on a n n u a l l y to an ou t s tand i ng c i t i z en o f t he commun i ty . Some Mason s ,

but mos t l y non -Ma son s , Ca t ho l i c s a s we l l a s P rotes tan t s , m i n i s t e rs . And we

even we re rea dy to g i ve i t to a ra bb i but he wa sn ' t a b l e to be presen t . He

wa s 1 i v i ng awa y , so t h a t no rabb i 1 s eve r had i t . So t ha t wa s one of my

. wha t I con s i der one of my accomp l i s hment s . Then , I s poke of another

s e r v i ce , resea rch g roup , A l l i ed Ma son i c Deg rees , wh i ch i s a n a t i ona l

organ i za t i on and a l so i n te rna t i ona l . The re a re cha p te r s i n Eng l and a s we l l a s

Canad a . And organ i zed t he l oca l cha p te r i n 1 95 1 or t he rea bou t s , and a l so

served a s the . t hey ca l l i t Sovere i gn Ma s t e r o f t ha t body . And maybe

f i na l ty j us t a bou t f i ve yea r s ago I organ i zed a new g roup wh i ch i s st i l l j us t

ma r k i ng t i me . I ment i oned t he Kn i g h t s Temp l a r � wh i ch i s C h r i s t i a n . I a l so

I n te rv i ew w i t h H e rman Sa rachan Page 72

A . ( Con t i n ued ) men t i oned t he p rev i ou s t i me that i n t he York R i te ,

remember t here i s t he Sco t t i s h R i te a nd t hen t he Yor k R i te , t here a re t h ree

i ndependen t bod i es . The . . . Roya l A rch Ma son s , Roya l a n d S e l ect Ma s ters ,

and Comma n de r i ng Kn i g ht s Temp l a r . B u t j u s t as Scott i s h R i tes i s a l ways

un i f i ed r i g h t u p to t he t h i rty- second , and t hen honora ry t h i r ty - t h i rd , rna �e

I ought t o men t i on somet h i ng a bout t h a t a f t e rwa rd s . The head o f t he

Commandery , wh i c h i s ca l l ed the G rand Encampmen t , wan ted o r s poke about or

t r i ed to un i fy these t h ree bod i es . And when a pe rson ma ke s a . . . p resen t s

a pe t i t i on i t s hou l d be fo r the t h ree bod i es , i n the same wa y a s the Sco t t i s h

R i te , wh i ch has fou r bod i e s , one pet i t i on and up you g o . And t hen t he p rob l em

a ro s e . Roya l A r c h Ma son ry , non -secta r i an ; Roya l and Se l ect Ma s t er s , non-·

secta r i a n ; but Comma n de r i ng Kn i g ht s Temp l a r i s C h r i s t i an .. How can you have

one body ? S o , a s ug g e s t ion came up to o rgan i ze a p a ra l l e l body to the

Comma n d e ry , wh i ch wou l d be non-sec t a r i an . We had a meet i ng of t h i s A l l i ed

Ma son i c Deg rees a bout f i ve yea r s ago i n s ummer , we had on e meet i ng i n t he

s umme r . And . a t t h i s pa r t i cu l a r meet i ng t hey had a rep resen t a t i ve o f Scot t i sh

R i tes , a n d a rep resenta t i ve of York R i tes to te l l u s some of t he p rob l ems of

the bod i e s . The rep resen t a t i ve o f t he Yo rk R i te men t i oned t he fa ct , among

o t he r t h i ng s , t ha t t he re ' s a s t rong des i re on t he p a r t of many to un i fy the

York R i te bod i e s , but t he re i s a prob l em i n t he Commande r y , i t ' s C h r i s t i an .

And s o , a s he p u t i t , t he s ugges t i on ha s been ma de tha t pe r ha p s we cou l d

orga n i ze a p a ra l l e l body , m i g h t be t he Orde r of Dav i d you m i g h t ca l l i t ,

somet h i ng l i ke tba t , wh i ch . . . wh i c h non - C h r i st i an s , Jews , cou l d be l ong

a n d , t herefor e , t h i s who l e bus i ne s s cou l d be un i f i ed , And t hen for� ·Mhateve r

rea son I don ' t kn ow, he 1 ooked i n my d i rec t i on and sa i d and I know the ma n

t h a t cou l d do some t h i ng about i t . And he l ooked a t me , so I l a ug hed . But ,

when I came home I began to t h i n k a bou t i t , w i t h t he r e s u l t t h a t I p repared

I n t e rv i ew w i th He rman Sa ra chan Page 73

A . ( Con t i n u ed ) a r i t ua l , i nc l ud i ng d rama s , for t he Orde r of J udas Ma cca bea s ,

wh i ch had two deg rees , we ca l l them o rde r s . The O r d e r o f Dav i d , the d rama of

wh i ch i s based upon t he s to ry of Dav i d a n d J on a t ha n to tea c h l ove , bro t h e r hood ,

J ove , et cetera . And t he O rder of J ud a s Macca bea s t o teach re l i g i ous f reedom

based upon the Macca bea n s tory . And I s en t i t to t h i s man who sent me . . .

two yea r s l a t e r he became t he G ran d Commande r of t he S t a t e G rand Commandery ,

he wa s a l l exc i ted about i t . W i t h t he res u l t a s t i me went on that we organ i zed

t he f i rs t bod y i n Rocheste r . And i t 1 s i nte res t i ng , here i s somet h i ng t h a t

wa s i nt ended for non � Ch r i s t i a n s . There a re v e ry few Jews i n e i t he r t he Roy a l

Arch o r t he Roy a l a nd Se l ect Ma s te r s , not many 1 ca u se mos t of them go to

Scot t i s h R i te . t h i n k one of t he p r i nc i pal reasons i s that t hen t hey ca n go

i n to t he s h r i n e , t he o t he r way t hey can 1 t go to Comma n d ery , so t hey don 1 t .

I n a ny even t , a f te r I p re s ented my s tory a t a meet i ng of Roya l A rc h , my own

c ha p te r , o f wh i ch l a t e r i nc i de n ta l l y I became the H i g h P r i es t , I p resen ted t he

s tory . I s a i d , we l l I d on 1 t know whe t he r a n y body 1 s i n tere sted but 1 1 m put t i ng

down the pape r on t he a l ta r , a n d i f a nybody 1 s i n te re s ted s i g n t he i r n ame .

I f ound twen ty names . One Jew , n i n e t een non-Jews . Mos t of t hem membe r s of

t he Comma n de r y who a l so wan ted t o become membe r s of t h i s , and t hey 1 re

members to t h i s day . So we o rga n i zed Assem b l age N umber One we ca l l i t ,

Genesee Va l l ey Assemb l age N umbe r One . Then we d i d dec i de to do some

m i s s i ona ry wor k a t a s ta t e conven t i on a n d a n umber of o t he r s f rom othe r pa r t s

o f t he s ta t e s i gned up . And i n a cou rse o f t i me we o rgan i zed So l omon

As semb l ag e N umber Two , i n t ha t As semb l ag e I t h i n k t he re a re two Jews and

the rest non-Jews . Now t h a t L s a s fa r a s they l ve g on e . And maybe we l J ] go

ou t of bus i n es s , but t he re 1 s somet h i n g e l se i f you w i l l f i na l l y t ha t I

o rg an i zed .

Q . Wou l d you ma ke t he po i n t a bout the J ews and non -Jews , one po i n t t he re when

I n t e rv i ew w i t h He rman Sa rachan Page 74

Q. (Con t i n ued ) you men t i on . • . ?

A . You see , C h r i s t i an s t a ke t he Comma n de ry , Jews d on �t so t hat t h l s orde r of

J ud a s Macca bea s wa s i n tended p r i ma r i l y for J ews , Mohammedan s o r non � Ch r i s t i a n s

i n genera l , maybe a t he i st s . Bu t , to d a te i n ou r own a s semb l ag e , t he re a re two

Jews , myse l f and a nothe r , a n d the res t a re a l l non �J ews .

Q . Do you f i nd t hat s t range t ha t t ha t happen ed t h a t wa y ?

A . Pe rha p s . And p e r ha p s a l so t hey fee l t ha t h e r e i s a l e s son or two l es sons

that a re wo r t hy , t hey ' re wor t hwh i l e . At l ea s t t ha t ' s the way I f i nd i t .

Q . Yea . There a re s o many . . . a s you t a l ked , t he re are so man y te rms a n d

t he re a re so man y ca tegor i es , deg rees , s tages , i t ' s a ve ry h i gh l y s t r u c t u red

organ i za t i on .

A . Yes .

Q . Wh i ch i s confu s i n g for t hose who a re not fam i l i a r w i th t he o r gan i za t i on .

A . We l l , I t h i n k I ' v e ta l ked q u i te a b i t a bout myse H haven ' t I ?

Q . We l l , t ha t ' s f i ne . I , you know, I do wan t to a s k you i f you don ' t m i nd ,

a bout you r i nvo l vemen t i n t he Z i on i s t o r g an i za t i on he re i n Roches ter beca u se

I me an a f t er a l l Z i on i sm ha s become a c r i t i ca l segment of Jew i s h h i s tory i n

the Twen t i e th Cen t u ry and i n Roche s t e r you p l a yed a fa i r l y p rom i nent ro l e i n

o rg an i z i ng .

A . U n t i l t he 1 930 ' s a n d t hen

and fo r a n umbe r of yea r s

g ra d ua l l y d ropped out a n d l et o t he r s d o the wo r k ,

wa s a d u e s pay i ng membe r , bu t t he p a s t few yea r s

I ' ve had t o do some reduc i ng a f te r a 1 1 , I ' m ret i red now fo r a number of yea r s ,

and so t ha t I d i scon t i nued pay i ng d ues I t h i n k two yea r s a g o .

Q . Do you fee l t ha t you r backg round com i n g from Ea s t e r n E u rope had a n yt h i ng to

do w i t h you r i n te re s t i n Z i on i sm ?

A . I wou l d s ay yes . Beca use m y mother i n f used i n to m e a . . . a s t rong respec t ,

adm i ra t i on , and a fee l i ng o f s t rong k i n s h i p w i t h Theodore Herz l . S he ta l ked

I n te rv i ew w i t h Herma n Sa racha n Page 75

A . ( Con t i nued ) a bout i t . S he l ooked u pon h i m a lmost a s the mess i a h . And

bha t , even when I wa s a l i t t l e fe l l ow , s he wa s ta l k i ng a bout Dr .. Theodore He rz l

and wha t he wa s do i ng . S o , t ha t became i mp l a n ted , and 1 1. m s u re tha t ' s one of

t he t h i ng s t ha t made me reta i n my i n te res t a l l t h roug h t hose yea rs .

Q . Let me reac t to t ha t . l t l. s ve ry i n t e re s t i n g . Those who we re l eade r s i n

Z i on i st movemen t i n E u rope we re , of cou r se , Her z l but a l so Hyman We i tzman a n d

P i n s ke r s and t he E a s te rn E u ropea n pa r t of . . .. of E u rope .. I t s t r i ke s me a s

u n u s ua l t ha t He rz l wa s s o i mpor t a n t i n you r fam i l y for you r mother and for

you r se l f , he be i ng f rom t he Weste rn E u ropean segme n t of Jewry .

A . But , i n s ome ways h e s eems to have l i t t he f i re o f en t hu s i a sm i n the m i n d ..

Now und e r s tand i n E u r ope I wa s too young to know an y t h i ng a bout i t .. B u t i n

i n t he e a r l y yea rs h e r e that mother • • . and I reca l l how s he shed tea r s

when word came tha t he h a d d i ed , I s ha l l n eve r forget .

Q . Very . .

A . I th i n k j o i ned he r i n . . i n . i n t he weep i ng .

Q . Now He rz l d i ed i n 1 904 .

A . 1 904 , t ha t ' s r i g ht .

Q. So t ha t you we re i n Amer i ca for t h ree o r fou r yea rs by t ha t t i me?

A . A coup l e of yea rs , yes .

Q. And you have a d i s t i nc t memo ry o f h i s d e a t h ?

A . Yes , o h yes . An d p r i o r to h i s dea t h mot he r kept t a l k i ng a bo u t a l l tha t he

was t ry i ng to do , a nd h i s v i v i d aud i ences w i t h k i ng s and t he Pope a n d how he

wa s i l l -t rea ted , and how f i na l l y d i ed w i t h a b r oken hea r t I wou l d j ud g e .

Q . An d at a young age .

A . Y e s .

Q . Do you reca l l a ny Z i on i s t act i v i ty i n Roche s t e r before t he f i r s t wa r ?

A . Yea , yea .

I n te rv i ew w i th He rma n S a ra chan

Q. We re you i nvo l ved a t a l l i n t ha t ?

Page 76

A. We l l , t hey had a Young J udea n C l ub t h a t chan ged l a ter to t he J Y . And the re

wa s a g i r l s ' · g roup , c a l l ed t he Emma Laza r u s C l u b , wh i ch we re s t rong l y Z i on i s t ..

I d i dn ' t have too much to do w i t h them .. And a l so d u r i ng '; 1 7 and '; 1 8 I wa s

out of t he c i ty . The yea r s ' 1 7 , ' 1 8 , ' 1 9 and ' 2 0 I wa s out of t he c i ty . And

I came bac k i n ' 2 1 . And i t wa s a f t e r that t h a t I became act i ve .

Q. Now you men t i oned t ha t you we re c l ose w i t h P h i l i p Bern s te i n , and he wa s ve ry

act i ve a s a Young J udea n .

A . Yea, t ha t was before my t i me .

Q. Befo re .

A . I wa s ou t of . . . I wa s ou t of town t hen .

Q. So t ha t you we re not a t a l l i nvol ved w i th th i s c l ub ?

A . B u t when I became a teache r i n t he S unday schoo l , a n d l a te r when t hey

o r g a n i zed t he h i g h schoo l depa r tmen t , I t a ug ht Ame r i can J ew i s h h i s to ry i n

t he h i g h s c hoo l depa r tmen t , t hen I became c l oser to h i m , espec i a l l y a f t e r

Hora ce Wo l fe pas sed awa y .

Q. So y ou r re l a t i on w i t h Rab b i Ber n s te i n rea l l y ha s n o t h i n g to do w i t h the

Z i on i s t . . . ?

A . N o t d i rec t l y , n o . M i ne wa s i n a d i fferent g ro up i ng ent i re l y .

Q. N ow, how d i d you set up t h i s Z i on i st g roup ? I mea n , wha t was t he . . . t he

mecha n i cs of t h i s? How d i d you a p pea l to peop l e i n Roches ter ?

A . O h , o h I d on ' t know. j u s t s ta r ted i t ; began to ta l k and wr i te ; g radua l l y

d i d mo re membe r s . We had a membe r s h i p d r i ve . You see you had to have

membe rs h i p d r i ves i n t hose ea r l y yea r s . And we broug ht speake r s , some of

the o u t s t and i ng men of t hose day s . And j u st ke pt on go i ng .

Q. I t h i n k t ha t Dav i d Ben G u r i on came to Roches ter i n 1 93 1 . Do you reca l l h i s

v i s i t a t a l l ?

I n t e rv i ew w i th He rman Sa rac ha n

A . Very l i t t l e .

Q. But t here we re a n umbe r of Z i on i s t s who came to Roche s t e r .. . . ?

A . Oh , y e s .

Page 77

Q . . a nd o r g an i za t i on t ha t you we re i nvo l ved i n a s we l l . And you r fee l i n g

for t he S t a t e of I s ra e l ha s been v i gorous t h ro ug hou t t he yea r s ?

A . O h , yes .

Q . To t he p resent d a y .

A . Ye s , r i g ht down to t he p resen t day . B u t , d u r i ng recen t yea r s i t has not

been a n i na c t i ve type , j u s t i n te re s t and in ou r l i m i ted mean s con t r i but ion s

and so f o r t h . But I have not been a c t i ve i n t he Z i on i s t movement for a t i me .

I was P res i d en t of t he . . . t he re wa s a Z i on i s t body wh i c h i nc l uded a l l the

Z i on i st g r oup s , t he rad i ca l Z i on i s t g roups as we l l as t he Con serva t i ve a n d

t he O rt hodox , g en e ra 1 Z i on i s t s , somet h i ng o r o t he r . I forget the n ame . And

I wa s P re s i den t f or a coup l e yea r s a n d wo r ked w i t h t hem for a coup l e yea rs .

And t hen I became so i nvol ved i n my tern . . . i n my synagog ue , i n Ma s on ry , t ha t

I g ra d ua l l y d i scon t i n ued t ha t .

Q. S hou l d I i n fe r f r om t h i s t ha t you r i. n terest i n I s rae l gene ra l l y ha s dec l i ned

recent 1 y . . .

A . N o , i n terest i n I s rae l i s one o f p r i me i mpor tance , b u t i t h a s n ': t been an

a c t i ve i n te res t . L i ke go i ng out a n d s e l l i n g bon d s o r a n y t h i ng o f t ha t sor t ,

t ha t I haven ' t d on e .

Q. Had you don e t ha t before , se l l i n g bon d s ?

A. No , bon d s came ou t , s ha l l I s a y , when I became a n i nact i ve pe rson . We have a

few bond s , but j u s t by p u rcha se .

Q. What i s you r react i on to the 1 .973 wa r , t he Yom K i p p u r Wa r a n d t he S tate of

I s rae 1 today ?

A . We ] 1 , I wou l d say t he same a s mos t Jews . We reg re t ted t hat wa r and we ' re

I n t e rv i ew w i th He rman Sa rachan Page 78

A. ( Con t i nued ) happy t h a t i t t u rned out a s i t f i na l l y d i d . And we wou l d

l i ke t o see peace f i na l l y e s t ab l i shed , and a l l we can d o i s hope .

Q . I hav e j us t one more ser i es of q ue st i on s to a s k .. I '-m s u re you ' l l be g l ad

to hea r t hat . Th i s concern s you r a c t i v i ty w i t h t he RB I , Rochester B u s i ne s s

I ns t i t u te i n . . . i n t he a rea . And I unde r s tand t ha t you had taught Eng l i s h

t here to i mm i g ra n t s . S hou l d I a s s ume that t hese we re i mm i g ra n t J ews ?

A . No .

Q. I mm i g ran t s genera l l y .

A . Ge rman i mm i g ran t s .

Q . Ge rman .

A . Wha t ha ppened wa s t h a t an unc l e of my w i fe L s wa s a n agen t for a s t eams h i p

compan y . And man y Ge rma n s were com i ng i n t hose yea rs , and he came to me one

d ay and sa i d how wou l d you l i ke to teach Eng l i sh to Ge rma n s ? He sa i d I ' ve

a r ranged a t RB I for s uc h a c l a ss i f I can get a teache r . So , I sa i d yes , s u re .

I a l ways enj oyed teach i ng . I ' d been teac h i ng a l l my l i fe , r i gh t to t he presen t

d a y . So t hese Germa n s came , b i g h u s ky fe l l ows . had s t ud i ed q u i te a b i t of

Ge rman , and I d on ' t mean Y i dd i s h Germa n as some o f my c l a s sma tes in t he

Ge rman c l a s ses u sed . had Ge rman i n h i g h schoo l , a nd I had advan ced G e rman

i n co l l eg e . And I . . I read sc i en t i f i c G e rma n , so I knew enou g h Ge rman so

t ha t I cou l d g i ve them German wo rd s but a l so tea c h t hem Eng ] i sh . And

ca r r i ed on for a n umbe r of yea rs . Now t ha t 1 s . . . t ha t l s t he s tory .

Q . So you we re teac h i ng G e rman l an g uage?

A . I was teach i ng Eng l i sh , but

wou l d unde rs tand t he En g l i s h .

Q. Yea .

wa s exp l a i n i n g to t hem i n German so t h a t they

A. N o , wa sn l t teach i ng G e rman , I wa s teach i n g Eng l i sh t o German i mm i g ra n t s .

Q . The q uest i on that i s t ucked i n he re i s you r con t r i bu t i on to t he Ame r i can i za t i on

I n te r v iew w i t h He rman S a ra chan Page 79

Q . ( Con t i nue d ) o f Ge rman i mm i g ra n t s i n t he l oca l commun i t y , Wou l d you

s ay tha t t here we re ve ry l a rge and v i gorou s i mm i g ra n t commun i ty i n Roche s te r ,

a s the re has been t h r oughout t he E a s t e rn sea boa rd ? And t he p roces s of

a cu l t ra t i ng t hem to t he en v i ronmen t i s a n i n terest i ng one i f you fe l t t ha t

wa s i mpor t an t . Wh i ch i s to say i f you fe l t that t he German s not on l y had to

J ea rn t he l an g ua g e of Eng ] i s h , bu t had to a s sume some of t he • o r a t

l ea s t under s t and some o f t he c u s toms a n d v a l ue s o f t he Amer i ca n env i ronmen t .

A,. I ' m a f ra i d I can 1 t . .

Q. You we ren ' t i nvo l ved i n that k i nd of . . . 7

A . I was me re l y tea ch l1ng t hem Eng ] i s h 1 t ha t wa s m y who l e i nvo l vemen t . But l et

me say t h i s I taug ht some i nd i v i d ua l ; Jews , J ew i s h i mm i g ran t s , but on a n

. . . o n an i nd i v i d ua l ba s i s . I t a u g h t G e r . . . Eng ] i s h , yea . The re I had .

Q . Tha t wa s a t u tor i a l . . .

A . Yea .

Q . • . . a r rangemen t .

A . Tha t ' s r i g ht , yea . May I a l so men t i on that I . . . I d i d men t i on tha t I wa s

d i rec tor of a symphony orche s t na .

Q . R i g h t .

A . I s t ud i ed the v i o l i n . p l a yed t he v i o l i n . I n fact , p l a yed i n the

orche s t r a . a l so wa s a t rap d r umme r , a n d t ha t ' s how ea rned m y . . . my

way th rou g h co l l eg e . B u t I a l so taught t he v i o l i n t ha t 1 s wha t 1 1m t ry i ng t o

s ay . t h i n k a l l my l i fe I ' ve been tea ch i ng somet h i ng o r othe r , j us t � ove to

teach .

Q . R i g h t . An d i t comes t h r oug h you r wo rk i n t he Ma son i c l od g e a s we l l .

A . Yes , def i n i te ] y . I ' ve been teach i ng t he re for yea r s a n d yea rs . An d

enj oy teach i ng .

Q . What symphony o r c he s t ra d i d you p l ay i n ?

I n te rv i ew w i th He rman Sar achan Page 80

A . Oh , I p l a yed i n Roches te r Symphony Orche s t ra t ha t wa s conducted by a mah by

t h e name of Ludw i g S han k , who wa s a ve ry f i ne mus i c i an . And h i s wa s . . . t hese

wer e not p r ofes s i on a l orches t ra s . I a l so p l a yed when I wa s i n I t haca , I p l ayed

i n that o rches t ra . And fo r severa l yea r s the re wa s an orches t ra i n t he

h i g h schoo l of h i g h s c hool s tuden t s as we l l a s ad u l t s . And I p l a yed i n tha t

or c he s t r a , a nd

Tha t was a f te r

a l so took a summe r cou r se a t E a s tman Schoo l i n con duc t i n g .

had s t a r ted to con d uc t the orches t ra . Then I . . . t hen I

a c t ua l l y took that s umme r cou r s e .

Q. When you organ i z ed t ha t . . . M r . Freema n o r Mr . . .

A . Wha t wa s i t ?

i n ves t i g a t i ng .

1 Ca u se t h i s ma n t ha t wrote t h i s face s heet d i d a l ot of

Q. D i d you read t he f l a p to y ou r book?

A. Yea .

Q. We s hou l d a l so have a f l ap .

A . 1 92 5 to 1 93 0 , f i ve yea rs i t extended . We o rgan i zed f i r s t i n 1 92 5 . We had a

n umbe r of Ea s tman Schoo l s t u den t s come to p l a y i n t h i s o r c he s t ra . The

one of the conductors of the t hen Ea s tma n O rche s t ra , I t h i n k i t wa s ca l l ed

E a s tman Symphony Orche s t ra then , p l ayed ea c h wee k , ma n by t he name of Ha r r i son ,

took an i n te re s t . H e came down a coup l e o f t i mes t o ou r r ehea rsa l s a n d took

t he ba t on . So t ha t wa s anot her l i t t l e ep i sod e .

Q. Wha t a bout t h i s Roc he s t e r Symphony O r c hes t ra ? Th i s wa s not . . . t ha t was

not a p rofe ss i ana 1 . . . ?

A . Tha t wa s n on -p rofess i ona l , i t wa s adu l t .

Q. I n t he a rea .

A . Ludw i g S han k cond ucted .

Q . OK . We 1 1 , I have not h i ng mo re . I wan t to thank you ve ry much .

END OF TAP E 2 , S I D E A ( I n te rv i ew 1 1 )