Higher Education and the Future of Hawaii

Presented to the

The Senate Education Committee, andThe House Higher Education Committee

Honolulu, Hawaii

March 12, 2007

National Center for Higher Education Management SystemsNational Center for Higher Education Management Systems3035 Center Green Drive, Suite 150 Boulder, Colorado 80301-2251

2

Core Problems Facing Hawaii

¦ Per Capita Income Declining vis-à-vis the Rest of the Country (and Highly Variable Across the State)

¦ Heavily Dependent on Service (Especially Visitor) Industry and Government Employment

¦ Relatively Low Wage Structure (and High Cost of Living)

¦ Aging Workforce

¦ Very Low Unemployment and Workforce Shortages in Key Areas—Coupled with Underemployment

3

Declining Per Capita Personal Income in Hawaii as a Percent of U.S. Average—1960-2005

99.995.1

102.5

113.0113.1

124.4

79.4

81.9

75.6

91.490.599.5

60%

80%

100%

120%

140%

1960 1970 1980 1990 2000 2005

Actual PCPI Adjusted

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, Bureau of Economic Analysis

4

Per Capita Personal Income, 1999

Hawaii = $21,525Source: U.S. Census Bureau, 2000 Census

$26,473 to $38,483$21,759 to $26,473$16,483 to $21,759$13,756 to $16,483$8,704 to $13,756

Not Determined

5

Percent of Total Gross State Product by Industry and Comparison to U.S.

22.1

27.9

21.1

3.1

6.6

7.9

3.52.3

4.5

0.0

1.0

22.6

29.2

21.4

3.0

5.4

7.4

3.5

1.9

5.0

0.0

0.6

11.9

25.2

20.8

4.7

5.0

6.85.9

12.8

4.6

1.31.0

0%

5%

10%

15%

20%

25%

30%

Agriculture,Forestry &

Fishing

Mining Construction Manufacturing WholesaleTrade

Retail Trade Transp.,Warehousing

& Utilities

Information Finance,Insurance,Real Est.

Services Government

Hawaii 1997

Hawaii 2004

U.S. 2004

Source: Bureau of Economic Analysis, www.bea.doc.gov

6

Median Earnings by Education Level for Population Age 18-64, 2005

21,087

23,723

27,413

30,751

37,780

43,931

61,503

29,87320,384

26,499

30,576

36,691

46,883

58,094

80,516

33,633

$0

$30,000

$60,000

$90,000

Less thanHigh School

High School SomeCollege

Associate Bachelor's Masters Doctorate orProfessional

All Levels

Hawaii * U.S.

*Hawaii adjusted for cost of living

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, 2005 American Community Survey (ACS) Public Use Microdata Sample (PUMS) File, Berry Cost of Living Index

7

Homes on O‘ahu—Beyond Affordable

Source: The Honolulu Advertiser, University of Hawaii economist Carl Bonham

We can no longer depend on an imported workforce.

$0

$100,000

$200,000

$300,000

$400,000

$500,000

$600,000

1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005

Median single-family home price on O'ahu

Affordable price*

* Price of an affordable home based on state’s median household income, average mortgage rate, and a 30-year mortgage with 20% down.

** Projected

$356,100

$128,400

$591,300**

$369,400**

**

8

Projected Change in Population by Age Group, 2000 to 2020

Source: U.S. Census Bureau Population Projections

36,953

16,383

25,457

-33,085

-20,697

71,899

103,926

-40,000

0

40,000

80,000

120,000

<15 15-24 25-34 35-44 45-54 55-64 65+

9

Unemployment Rates—Hawaii and U.S., 1995-2006

Source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

2.0

5.9

4.5

5.6

1%

2%

3%

4%

5%

6%

7%

8%

9%

1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006

Hawaii U.S.

10

Percent of Employees with a College Degree by Job Type, 2000

37.1

66.3

40.3

59.4

67.3

18.8

13.911.5

32.8

62.1

38.6

57.055.4

15.1

8.98.6

0%

25%

50%

75%

NaturalResources

Factory Low-SkilledService

Healthcare Education,Public Service

Office Technology All Jobs

HawaiiU.S.

Source: Tony Carnevale and Donna Desrochers, ETS (PUMS 2000 5% Sample, source data extracted from www.ipums.org at the University of Minnesota)

11

Economic Future of Hawaii

¦ Increasing the Number of High-Wage Jobs—Expanding and Diversifying the Economy

¦ Creating a Skilled Workforce that Can Be Employed in Such Jobs

Interviews with Private and Public Sector Leaders Throughout the State Revealed a Common Belief that the Economic Future of Hawaii Depends on:

12

Some Key Facts About the State’s Workforce

¦ Generally High Educational Attainment—But Losing Ground

¦ Aging

¦ Workforce Participation Is About Average in Spite of Very Low Unemployment Rates—and Varies by:> Region of State> Education Attainment Levels

¦ Reliant on In-Migration to Fill Positions in Key Areas and Exporting in Other Key Fields

¦ Fewer High School Graduates than Open Positions

13

Educational Attainment and Rank Among States—Hawaii, 2005

23rd

16th

6th

11th

1st

01020304050

Age 25-64 withGraduate/Prof. Degree

Age 25-64 withBachelor's or Higher

Age 25-64 withAssociate Degree

Age 25-64 withHigh School Diploma

Age 18-24 withHigh School Diploma

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, 2000 Census

91.7%

9.6%

92.0%

10.4%

30.3%

14

Differences in College Attainment (Associate and Higher) by Age Group—Hawaii, U.S. and Leading OECD Countries, 2004

53.3 51.6 49.1

42.3

40.7

40.4

39.2

39.0 36.4

47.0 45.1

33.5

35.7 32.3 28.9

34.1

39.4

38.5

41.4

32.7

16.4

32.9

25.2 21.5

29.4

40.7

42.8

34.5

19.2

9.7

27.3

20.0 15.7

23.2

36.2 34.2

0

10

20

30

40

50

60

Canada Japan Korea Sweden Belgium Ireland Norway U.S. Hawaii

Age 25-34 Age 35-44 Age 45-54 Age 55-64

Source: OECD, Education at a Glance 2005

15

Percent of Civilian Population Age 25-64 Participating in the Workforce, 2005

78.8

77.8

67.7

85.4

0

30

60

90

North D

akotaM

innesotaSouth D

akotaIow

aVerm

ontNebraska

Wyom

ingW

isconsinNew

Ham

pshireKansas

Colorado

Maryland

Connecticut

Rhode island

Montana

Massachusetts

Alaska

Delaw

areN

ew Jersey

IllinoisUtah

Virgin

iaM

aineH

awaii

Nevada

Missouri

Indian

aO

regonPennsylvaniaO

hioUnited S

tatesW

ashingtonNorth C

arolinaG

eorgiaTexasM

ichiganIdahoNew

YorkFloridaCalifornia

Arizona

South C

arolinaO

klahoma

New

Mexico

TennesseeArkansas

Mississippi

LouisianaAlabam

aKentucky

West V

irginia

Source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

16

Hawaii Civilians Age 25-64 in the Workforce by Education Attainment, 2005

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, 2005 ACS PUMS File

Less than High School

High School Diploma or GED

Some College, No Degree

Associate Degree

Bachelor's Degree

Graduate or Professional Degree

In Civilian Workforce Not in Civilian Workforce

Number Percent Number Percent

34,623 63.8 19,658 36.2

144,239 75.4 46,967 24.6

104,974 78.1 29,469 21.9

55,994 81.1 13,074 18.9

111,765 83.9 21,485 16.1

53,100 84.5 9,724 15.5

17

Net Migration by Degree Level and Age Group—Hawaii

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, 2000 Census; 5% Public Use Microdata Sample (PUMS) Files

22- to 29-Year-Olds 30- to 64-Year-Olds

2,301

1,187

2,108

-819

-2,132

1,151

806

-3,000 -2,000 -1,000 0 1,000 2,000 3,000

-20,078

603

-1,962

-1,787

-11,761

-5,778

607

-25,000 -20,000 -15,000 -10,000 -5,000 0 5,000

Less than High School

High School

Some College

Associate

Bachelor’s

Graduate/Professional

Total

18

Occupations with High Net Imports and Exports, 1995-2000

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, 2000 Census; 5% PUMS Files

22- to 29-Year-Olds with College Degrees

-230-170

-136-131

-107-102

-96-96-89

123135139

152170

213250

338379

469

-124

-500 -400 -300 -200 -100 0 100 200 300 400 500

Computer SpecialistsConstruction TradesFinancial SpecialistsSales Representatives, ServicesLaw EnforcementFinancial ClerksSecretaries & Administrative AssistantsMedia & Communication Equipment WorkersBusiness Operations SpecialistsOther Office & Administrative Support

Lawyers, Judges, & Related WorkersFirst-Line Enlisted Military Supervisor/Managers

Information & Record ClerksPostsecondary Teachers

Other Management OccupationsFood & Beverage Serving

Air TransportationHealth Diagnosing & Treating Practitioners

Operations Specialties ManagersMilitary Officer Special & Tactical Operations Leaders/Managers

19

Occupations with High Net Imports and Exports, 1995-2000

30- to 64-Year-Olds with College Degrees

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, 2000 Census; 5% PUMS Files

-953-552

-521-477

-367-349-332

-280-230

100103104121134136

183197217

268

-429

-1,000 -750 -500 -250 0 250 500 750 1,000

Computer SpecialistsSupervisors, Sales WorkersFinancial SpecialistsBusiness Operations SpecialistsOperations Specialties ManagersSupervisors, Office & Administrative SupportLaw EnforcementFinancial ClerksMilitary Enlisted Tactical Ops. & Air/Weapons Specialists & CrewOther Management Occupations

Supervisors of Installation, Maintenance, & Repair WorkersOther Education, Training, & Library Occupations

Supervisors, Food Preparation & ServingHealth Diagnosing & Treating Practitioners

Building Cleaning & Pest ControlFirst-Line Enlisted Military Supervisor/Managers

Agricultural WorkersOther Military Occupations

Social Scientists & Related WorkersOther Protective Service Workers

20

Projections of High School Graduates to 2018 By Race/Ethnicity—Hawaii

Source: WICHE Projections of High School Graduates

0

2,000

4,000

6,000

8,000

10,000

12,000

2000-01

2001-02

2002-03

2003-04

2004-05

2005-06

2006-07

2007-08

2008-09

2009-10

2010-11

2011-12

2012-13

2013-14

2014-15

2015-16

2016-17

2017-18

Asian/Pacific Islander (7,534 to 7,516) White (1,917 to 1,125)Hispanic (441 to 413) Black (177 to 126)American Indian/Alaskan Native (33 to 48)

21

Summary—The Good News

¦ Relatively Well Educated Workforce in Full Range of Current Employment—Underemployment??

¦ Relative High Salaries at All Levels of Education (but not When Adjusted for Cost of Living)

¦ There Are Jobs (of Some Sort) for Those Seeking Employment

¦ Many States Have Worse Problems than Hawaii

22

Summary—The Bad News

¦ Losing Ground RAPIDLY in Education Attainment

¦ Not Producing Enough Graduates to Replenish Retiring Workforce

¦ Hawaii Compares Unfavorably to Global Competitors

23

A Conclusion

¦ Workforce Development

¦ Workplace Development

In Order for the Economic Circumstances of Hawaii and its Citizens to Be Sustained and Improved, the State Must Simultaneously Address the Twin Challenge of:

And It Must Effectively Engage the Higher Education System in This Process

24

Workforce Development—The Education Pipeline

25

Key Transition Points in the Education Pipeline

¦ Complete High School

¦ Enter College

¦ Finish College

¦ Enter the Workplace

26

Student Pipeline—Hawaii, 2004

91

57

42

28

70

39

27

18

65

33

21

13

0

20

40

60

80

100

Graduate fromHigh School

Enter College Still EnrolledSophomore Year

Graduate Within150% Time

Best Performing State U.S. Average Hawaii

Of 100 9th Graders, How Many…

Source: NCES Common Core Data, NCES IPEDS 2004 Residence and Migration Survey, NCEC IPEDS 2004 Fall Enrollment Survey and Graduation Rate Survey

27

High School Graduation Rates—Public High School Graduates as a Percent of 9th Graders Four Years Earlier, 2004

64.9

69.7

50.7

91.3

0

20

40

60

80

100

New

JerseyUtah

North D

akotaIow

aN

ebraskaM

innesotaVerm

ontSouth D

akotaIdahoM

ontanaPennsylvaniaW

isconsinM

aineM

issouriKansas

Ohio

Connecticut

New

Ham

pshireIllinoisArkansas

Wyom

ingM

assachusettsO

klahoma

Maryland

Colorado

Virgin

iaW

est Virginia

Oregon

Rhode Island

California

Washington

IndianaUnited S

tatesM

ichiganLouisianaTexasD

elaware

Haw

aiiKentucky

Arizona

North C

arolinaTennesseeAlaska

New

YorkNew

Mexico

Alabam

aM

ississippiFloridaG

eorgiaSouth C

arolinaNevada

Source: Tom Mortenson, Postsecondary Opportunity (rev. 071106)

2828

29

Fall 2006 Recent High School Graduates COMPASS Test Takers

13.229.9

53.240.6

31.8

28.146.2 38.3

18.7

0%

20%

40%

60%

80%

100%

Reading Writing Math

Basic Skills Develomental Transfer

University of Hawaii Community Colleges—

30

College Going Rates—First-Time Freshmen Directly Out of High School as a Percent of Recent High School Graduates, 2004

55.7 51.6

43.4

68.8

0

25

50

75

South D

akotaNew

YorkNorth D

akotaSouth C

arolinaM

innesotaN

orth Carolina

Georgia

Massachusetts

New

JerseyTennesseeIow

aNew

Mexico

Kansas

Connecticut

Alabam

aM

ississippiNebraska

IndianaW

yoming

PennsylvaniaM

ichiganM

arylandW

isconsinColorado

Montana

Virginia

Kentucky

Arkansas

United S

tatesRhode Island

New

Ham

pshireIllinoisN

evadaLouisianaD

elaware

FloridaW

est Virginia

Oklahom

aM

issouriO

hioTexasHaw

aiiM

aineArizona

IdahoO

regonAlaska

Californ

iaUtah

Verm

ontW

ashington

Source: NCES; Common Core Data, Private High Schools Survey, Fall Residency and Migration Survey

31

College Participation Rates by State for Students from Low-Income Families, 2005 (Percent)

19.9

25.4

41.3

8.6

0

10

20

30

40

50

Iowa

Nebraska

New

Ham

pshireNew

YorkNew

JerseyVerm

ontM

aineM

assachusettsM

innesotaPennsylvaniaN

orth Dakota

Montana

Wisconsin

Michigan

Ohio

IndianaKansas

South D

akotaM

arylandRhode Island

North C

arolinaO

regonConnecticut

Missouri

IllinoisUnited S

tatesVirgin

iaColorado

IdahoArkansas

FloridaM

ississippiSouth C

arolinaAlabam

aW

ashingtonCalifornia

West V

irginiaNew

Mexico

Kentucky

TexasTennesseeO

klahoma

Georgia

Delaw

areH

awaii

Utah

Wyom

ingLouisianaArizona

Nevada

Alaska

Source: Postsecondary Education Opportunity, 2007

32

Percent of First-Time Freshmen Who Attend College Within Their Reported State of Residence, Fall 2002

84.7

69.6

46.8

94.0

0

25

50

75

100

Mississippi

Utah

Californ

iaN

orth Carolina

TexasLouisianaArizona

Michigan

Alabam

aFloridaO

klahoma

South C

arolinaIow

aKentucky

IndianaArkansas

Kansas

Georgia

Ohio

PennsylvaniaW

isconsinUnited S

tatesM

issouriNebraska

West V

irginiaColorado

TennesseeNew

YorkM

innesotaO

regonNevada

IllinoisNew

Mexico

Washington

Virgin

iaIdahoSouth D

akotaM

ontanaD

elaware

Massachusetts

North D

akotaW

yoming

Haw

aiiM

arylandRhode Island

Maine

New

JerseyConnecticut

Alaska

New

Ham

pshireVerm

ont

Source: NCES, IPEDS Fall 2002 Residency and Migration File

33

Associate Degrees Awarded per 100 High School Graduates Three Years Earlier, 2004

28.9

23.4

12.6

47.7

0

10

20

30

40

50

FloridaW

yoming

Washington

Rhode Island

New

YorkIow

aM

ississippiUtah

Haw

aiiArizona

North C

arolinaCalifornia

South D

akotaO

regonKansas

Colorado

Minnesota

New

Ham

pshireUnited S

tatesNorth D

akotaIllinoisSouth C

arolinaO

klahoma

New

Mexico

Kentucky

IndianaAlabam

aM

ichiganNevada

Missouri

Nebraska

IdahoVirginia

PennsylvaniaO

hioM

assachusettsG

eorgiaTennesseeW

est Virginia

Wisconsin

TexasArkansas

Verm

ontNew

JerseyM

ontanaM

arylandM

aineD

elaware

Alaska

Connecticut

Louisiana

Source: NCES-IPEDS Completions Survey, WICHE

34

Bachelor’s Degrees Awarded per 100 High School Graduates Six Years Earlier, 2004

45.4

51.8

97.4

21.2

0

25

50

75

100

Rhode Island

Massachusetts

Delaw

areColorado

New

YorkArizona

New

Ham

pshireNorth C

arolinaU

tahVerm

ontFloridaPennsylvaniaM

issouriNorth D

akotaIndianaO

regonIow

aKansas

Georgia

Nebraska

Michigan

Virginia

TennesseeUnited S

tatesConnecticut

Wisconsin

Maryland

Montana

Alabam

aO

klahoma

South D

akotaW

ashingtonM

innesotaO

hioLouisianaSouth C

arolinaIllinoisCalifornia

Haw

aiiM

aineW

est Virginia

Kentucky

Mississippi

TexasNevada

New

Mexico

New

JerseyArkansas

IdahoW

yoming

Alaska

Source: NCES Common Core Data, IPEDS Completion Survey

35

Workplace Development—What Can Be Expected of the Higher Education System?

¦ R&D that Leads to Expanded High-Wage Employment> At the University

> In Spin-Off Companies

¦ Entrepreneurial Training—and the Modeling of Entrepreneurial Behaviors

¦ Rapid Response Training for Employers Seeking to Fill Living-Wage Jobs

36

The Bottom Line

¦ Enhance the State’s Stock of Human Capital

> Improved Competencies of High School Graduates

> Increased Skills of Adults with Less than a High School Education

> Improve Participation and Graduation Rates of College Students

(continued)

37

The Bottom Line (continued)

¦ Provide Skilled Workers in Critical Need Areas

> Nursing/Allied Health

> Teachers

> Science/Industrial Technologies

¦ Help to Expand and Diversify the State’s Economy

> Technology Transfer

> Rapid Response to Employer’s Training Needs

38

Address These Issues

as Appropriate in

All Parts of the State

39

Relative Need for Postsecondary Education/Training by Region

VH = Very High H = High M = Medium L = Low

Population Growth (Numbers) H M VH L L L M M H M

Population Growth (Percent) L L VH L L L M M H M

Projected HS Graduates (Average %) M M VH H L L L H L L

Income L M H VH VH M VH M M H

Workforce Participation (%) H H M H VH H H L L M

Education Attainment (<HS Diploma) L M M H L L H VH H H

Education Attainment (HS Diploma) L L M VH H M M M M M

Education Attainment (Bachelor’s) L L M VH H L M M M M

Going Rates (2-Yr) H L M H H M H VH H L

Going Rates (4-Yr) L M VH VH VH VH M H VH VH

Skilled Workforce Needs VH VH VH VH VH VH VH VH VH VH

RELATIVE NEED 31 31 55 57 47 33 45 49 43 41

East Cent ’Ewa Wai N Sh Win E HI W HI Mau Kau

40

Key Short-Term Initiatives

¦ Better Align K-12 Learning Outcomes and Assessment with Higher Education Expectations—Ensure Students Leave High School Prepared for Further Education and for Work

¦ Significantly Increase Numbers of Adults Acquiring Workplace Literacy Skills

¦ Provide Higher Education Access in Areas of Greatest Need

> Waianae

> ’Ewa

¦ Improve Student Retention

(continued)

41

Key Short-Term Initiatives (continued)

¦ Expand Degree Production in Key Areas

> Nursing/Health Sciences

> Teacher Education

> Computer Science (Oriented to Engineering Applications)

> Science/Industrial Technologies

¦ Create and Sustain a Rapid Response Capability

¦ Enhance Educational Programs and Support Systems for Entrepreneurs

¦ Promote Technology Transfer

42

The Policy Environment

¦ Formally Adopt a Set of Goals that Is Agreed to by Executive and Legislative Branches and UHS—a Compact

¦ Develop an Agreed-Upon Set of Accountability Measures by Which Progress Toward Goal Achievement Can Be Monitored

Create a Policy Environment that Encourages Pursuit of These

Initiatives—Realizing that the Policy Environment You Have

Yields the Results You’re Getting.

(continued)

43

The Policy Environment (continued)

¦ Create New Funding Relationship Between the State and UHS

> Eliminate Line Items (focus on What to do, not How to do)

> Calibrate Funding Against External Benchmarks

> Align Investment Funds Explicitly with Items Identified in the “Compact”

¦ Conduct a More Detailed “Policy Audit” to Identify Policies/Procedures that Create Barriers to Pursuit of the Agreed-Upon Public Agenda

44

An Action Agenda

¦ Join with Legislature and UHS in Developing and Ratifying a Compact and Associated Accountability Measures

¦ Promulgate the List of Priorities to All Appropriate Executive Branch Agencies—Use the Bully Pulpit

¦ Support K-20 Initiatives Focused on Alignment

¦ Establish a Policy Leadership Focus for Adult/Workplace LiteracyEducation

¦ Submit a Higher Education Budget Aligned with Priorities

Accomplishment of the Objectives Identified Will Require Action on the Part of All Parties.

(continued)

Executive Branch

45

An Action Agenda (continued)

¦ Join with Executive Branch and UHS in Developing and Ratifying a Compact and Associated Accountability Measures

¦ Develop a New Approach to Allocation of Resources to UHS> Allocation Based on Core Funding and Investment in

Priorities> Autonomy with Accountability

¦ Establish Expectations Concerning Delivery of:> Long-Range Financing Plan for Higher Education> A Policy Audit

(continued)

Legislative Branch

46

An Action Agenda (continued)

¦ Join with Executive and Legislative Branches in Developing and Ratifying a Compact and Associated Accountability Measures

¦ Pursue the Priority Items Identified

¦ Take the Leadership in Proposing a Long-Range Financing Plan for Higher Education for Submission to Executive and Legislative Branches

¦ Take the Leadership in Conducting a Policy Audit

(continued)

UHS

47

An Action Agenda (continued)

¦ “Pull” Improvements in Education Attainment/Learning

> Require Employees Lacking Basic Skills to Engage in Workplace Literacy Training

> Screen New Employees for Requisite Skills

> Require High School Students Who Are Employed to Take a Rigorous (SSI) Curriculum and Make Satisfactory Academic Progress as a Condition of Employment

¦ Support a Publicly Funded Venture Capital Fund

¦ Support the Public Agenda—Push Government and Education Leaders to Adopt and Sustain the Recommendations Made for Their Action

Private Sector

48

NATIONAL CONFERENCE OF

STATE LEGISLATURES

A Framework for Higher Education Reform

Recommendations of the NCSL Blue Ribbon Commission on Higher Education

49

Legislator Roles and Responsibilities

¦ Budgets and Appropriations

¦ Goals and Expectations for Higher Education

¦ Higher Education as a Legislative Priority

¦ Legislative Leadership

50

Recommendations

¦ Define Clear State Goals—A Public Agenda for Higher Education

¦ Identify Your State Strengths and Weaknesses

¦ Know Your Demographic Trends for Next 10-30 Years

¦ Identify a Place to Sustain the Public Agenda

¦ Hold Institutions Accountable

(continued)

51

Recommendations (continued)

¦ Rethink Funding> Link Appropriations, Tuition and Financial Aid Policy> Be Results/Performance Oriented in Funding> Focus on Productivity

¦ Recommit to Affordability> Help Reduce Borrowing and Debt> Rethink Student Aid

¦ Recommit to Access

¦ Recommit to Success(continued)

52

Recommendations (continued)

¦ Don’t Forget About Adult Learners

¦ Embrace Innovation

¦ Transform the 12th Grade

¦ Build Partnerships with K-12

¦ Build Partnerships with Business