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D Tomcat vs. F/18 E/F Super Hornet http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/595

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F-14D Tomcat vs. F/18 E/F Super HornetFlight Journal Magazine ^ | February 2002 Issue | Bob Kress and RADM Gilchrist USN (Ret)

Posted on 12/21/2001 9:30:45 AM PST by LSUfan

Editors Note: Every airplane that goes into service is accompanied by controversy. This is especially true of the F/A-18E/FSuper Hornet. Our two experts argue that the Super Hornet is not necessarily the airplane the Navy needs for the future, and their backgrounds lend weight to their arguments. Rear Admiral Paul Gillcrist U.S. Navy (Ret.) spent 33 years as a fighter

jet pilot and wing commander and was operations commander for all Pacific Fleet fighters. Bob Kress is an aeronauticalengineer and, during his long career at Grumman, he was directly involved in the development of the F-14 Tomcat. Their

analysis makes an interesting statement when placed against the background of the war on terrorism.

The requirement for a practical deep interdiction fighter/bomber have long been the subject of controversy within the navalaviation community, especially when it comes to the F-14D Tomcat versus the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. Often, however,the definition of “deep interdiction” is changed to fit the aircraft carrier under discussion, rather than taking into account thereal-world theater of operations for which it is destined.

Events over Afghanistan, however, have forced us to formalize what is really needed if an aircraft is to strike an enemydeep within its country. Today, we know that the politics of surrounding countries can dictate mission distances that stretchthe ability of current aircraft to their limits. The U.S. relies on Navy aircraft carriers as bases. So, when puttingfighter/bombers over Afghan targets, which aircraft led the charge? – the tried-and-true F-14D Tomcat with the F/A-18Hornet well behind.

This particular conflict motivated us to address what we see as a serious problem concerning Naval aviation assets and therealities of the fields over which we will fight.

As shown over Afghanistan, there are four basic requirements of any carrier strike force:

Reach the target

Don’t get shot down by SAMs, AAA, or enemy fighters

Strike the target

Return to the carrier before running out of gas

Within these four seemingly simple rules are the needs for an airplane to have a long range while carrying sufficientmunitions to hammer a target and still be able to fight its way through enemy aircraft and AAA threats.

An Afghanistan Scenario

Because our government isn’t telling us all its secrets, we’ll have to make some assumptions when using Afghanistan as anexample. It is, however, obvious that reaching the target presents a great challenge. To avoid Silkworm-class missiles, thecarrier battle group probably would not want to venture north of a line joining Masqat, Oman and Ahmadabad, Pakistan.Along this line, the group would be somewhat west of Karachi. Reaching Kabul would require a one-way flight of roughly825 statute miles. Assuming the use of S-3 tankers, an F-14D strike, refueling somewhere between Quetta and Sukkur,Pakistan, wouldn’t have any trouble attacking targets in the northernmost parts of Afghanistan. If, however, an F/A-18E/Frefuels in the same spot, it will barely make it to Kabul. The un-refueled radius of an F-14D carrying the normal strike load




7 10/14/2007

(four 2,000 pound LGBs, two Phoenix missiles, and two Sidewinders, plus 675 roundsof 20mm, and two, 280 gallonexternal tanks) is at least 500 statute miles.

Accompanying E/F Super Hornets have only a 350-statute-mile radius carrying about half the bomb load. To complete the picture of mission distances, the S-3s would have to dash back to the CVs, hot-refuel, and meet the raid coming out ofAfghanistan, which would be much in need of JP-4 cocktails.

Why are we nit picking over mission details? Easy! At the beginning of the studies that led to this article, we wereconvinced that the Afghan campaign would be an all-USAF show, and that would lead to questions of carrier-fleet

effectiveness. But map studies combined with knowledge of geopolitical restrictions showed that carrier assets, primarilythe F-14D, were just about the U.S.’s only option. This has clearly been substantiated by events.

Of course, the F-14Ds were not the first to hit targets in Afghanistan; b-2 stealth bombers each carried 16, 2,000-pound GPS-guided bombs. The flew from Whiteman AFB in Missouri – a 33-hour round trip. Further, big-time USAF strategic air assets – B-52s and B-1s – arrived shortly afterward.

It was soon apparent that USAF tactical aircraft were not being used in Afghanistan. We found that, even given unlimitedin-flight tanker refueling, the USAF F-15 and F-16 could not be used without a Middle Eastern ground base. Turkish baseswere simply too far away and would require refueling over hostile areas. Only the use of tactical air bases in Turkmenistanand/or Uzbekistan would work, and this would allow only partial coverage of Afghanistan.

The big question becomes: does the Navy have the assets to able to carry this kind of war into the future, and what kind of

planning is in place? To cut to the chase, the discussion once again reverts to whether or not the new Super Hornet willreally cut the mustard or the Navy has taken yet another wrong turn that will cost us dearly on the battlefield.

A History of Naval Aviation Difficulties

The subject of the erosion of Naval aviation has nagged both of us ever since the cancellation of the A-12 program by theSecretary of Defense in the late ‘80s. It was a watershed for a number of reasons, not the least of which was a level of bad management that hadn’t been seen in the Pentagon for decades! We can look back on that day and clearly see that theunraveling of the fabric of Naval aviation would become a long-term trend. Neither of us contends that the A-12, asenvisioned by Navy leaders, was the right airplane to develop at that point in history; in fact, it wasn’t! That, however, isanother story for another time.

We have to put off writing this article simply because we know it is likely to ruffle many feathers in the Pentagon and on

Capitol Hill, but events in Afghanistan again brought our main arguments into focus. Is writing this kind of article worth it,we wondered; we might be seen to be “piling it on” when the Navy is in difficulty and clearly on a steep, downhill slide.Well, we have listened, with no small restraint, to the pontifications that justify how well the Navy is doing with its favorite

program, the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet – despite unimpeachable reports to the contrary from the guys in the fleet; commentsmade to us by young fleet pilots who have flown the airplane and describe it as “a dog” carry much more weight with usthan statements from senior officers and civilians higher in the food chain. But certain pontifications in a statement by asenior Naval officer who should have known better served as the last straw.

The pronouncement appeared along with a spate of triumphal announcements that celebrated the “successful” completion of the Super Hornet’s first operational evaluation (OPEVAL). In a publication called “Inside Washington,” the Navy’s director of operational testing is quoted as saying that the Super Hornet was superior to its earlier models “…in every category butthree: acceleration, maximum speed and sustained turning performance.” This pronouncement boggled our minds because

these are the very performance capabilities that determine a tactical airplane’s survival. Then, as if to justify this “hand grenade,” the officer is quoted as stating that the Navy has sacrificed speed in the Super Hornet for other beneficialcapabilities, and he asserts, “brute speed is no longer the discriminator it once was when the benchmark was the Sovietthreat.” It is clear that this Naval officer doesn’t have a clue about aerial combat and the importance of total energy in thecomplex equation of energy maneuverability. Nor does he seem to understand that Third World countries all around theglobe are purchasing the very latest operational Russian-built fighters that are also licensed for production in China. TheRussian aerial threat still exists; what has changed is that the pilots aren’t Russians.

As a nation, we have always had the means to protect our own global interests as well as those of other countries. Short of nuclear war, the carrier battle groups have been able to strike on very short notice. A President’s first question in time of crisis is often, “Where are the carriers?”




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F-14Ds Carry a Major Punch

With a layered defense, including air assets, guided-missile cruisers and frigates and undersea backing, the carrier battlegroups are pretty well invulnerable. On the longer Nimitz-class carrier, we see the F14D – a truly long-rangefighter/bomber – plus lightweight F/A-18A fighter/bombers. The long-range A-6 bomber has gone forever, but itsderivative, the EA-6B Electronic Warfare (EW) aircraft is in place and is in much demand by both the USN and the USAF.This country’s Desert Fox and Kosovo experiences have, at last – and correctly – shifted the focus away from stealth and toward electronic warfare. We will have more to say on this important topic in a subsequent article. In short, at the moment,the deck complement looks adequate. The F-14D can pick up the A-6 role because it was designed to do so from scratch. Its

performance in Kosovo as a very effective strike leader has more than borne out that fact. With LANTIRN, night-visiondevices and synthetic aperture A/G radar, the F-14 targeted not only its own four 2,000-pound weapons but also theordinance of the F/A-18s, which don’t have such capable sensors.

An interesting comparison can be made to quantify the F-14D’s strike effectiveness. Compare one F-14D and one B-2 bomber during a two-night (33-hour) mission in Kosovo. In reactive situations (no foreign base), the B-2 operates from theU.S. (lack of overseas B-2 basing is a serious constraint and there are only a limited number of B-2s to begin with). Thechart shows the weapons delivered – U.S. to Kosovo and back – for the B-2 and the F-14D.

33-HOUR-MISSION STRIKE EFFECTIVENESS

B-2 F-14D

No. of 2,000 lb. Bombs…………………… 20* …………….. 4

Mission time (hours)……………………… 33** …………… 3+

No. of missions…………………………… 1 ..…………… 5***

No. of bombs delivered…………………... 20 …………….. 20

First bombs on target (hours)…………….. 17.5 …………….. Approx. 2

Notes: * Av. Week – 1/17/00; 40,000lb payload

** From Whiteman AFB, Missouri

*** All-night missions

The F-14D information is from Desert Fox operations

Carrier Effectiveness is the Issue

This simple chart says a great deal about a carrier battle group’s effectiveness. Remember that there are – or there can be – 24 F-14Ds on a ship such as the John C. Stennis (CVN-71). Twenty four F-14Ds can deliver more weapons than the entire16 aircraft of a B-2 fleet. Unfortunately, the numbers of F-14Ds are dwindling, and they will be almost gone in another 10years. What will be the replacement?

The F-14D will be replaced by the F/A-18E Super Hornet, which attempts deep-interdiction missions. Though it’s a whizzy

little airshow performer with a nice, modern cockpit, it has only 36 percent of the F-14D’s payload/range capability. TheF/A-18E Super Hornet has been improved but still has, at best, 50 percent of the F-14D’s capability to deliver a fixed number of bombs (in pounds) on target. This naturally means that the carrier radius of influence drops to 50 percent of whatit would have been with the same number of F-14Ds. As a result, the area of influence (not radius) drops 23 percent! Nowonder the USN is working on “buddy tanker” versions of the Super Hornet.

By the way, now that the A-6 tanker has gone, how will the Hornets get to deep-interdiction targets?

Contrary to what we’re officially told, a tanker variety of the Hornet is simply not the answer. In an attempt to make itsupersonic, the F-18E has been given a low aspect ratio and a razor blade of a wing. This hurts subsonic drag and carrier takeoff payload when compared with the KA-6 tanker, which is an aerodynamically efficient solution. Equally silly is the

proposal for an EW version of the F-18E. The same aerodynamic reasons apply for this airplane, plus it has an external




7 10/14/2007

stores dilemma. To get sufficient range to support a deep-interdiction mission, the EF-18E would have to use up preciousexternal store stations with fuel tanks rather than ECM pods as carried on the EA-6B. Perhaps the Navy should consider

putting the EA-6B back into upgraded and modernized production and build some of them as tankers?

As this is being written, it is too early to comment in an informed manner on the war on terrorism in Afghanistan. TheUSAF heavy bomber raids are fully public. However, it is evident that USN carrier strike groups that consist of F-14Ds andF-18s are conducting the tactical raids. A study of maps shows that CVN airborne S-3 tankers facilitate the conduct of theseraids by refueling, probably over Pakistan. At this time, USAF tactical air assets do not have bases close enough toAfghanistan to allow airborne refueling over friendly nations. By the time this finds its way into print, that may have

changed.

Reported Super Hornet Problems

Although the Navy has been working very hard to correct F/A-18E/F OPEVAL problems, it is worth summing them up: the production of the F/A-18E/F is significantly overweight with respect to its specifications (30,000 pounds empty weight).This is far in excess of what one would expect for a variant of an existing F/A-18 A, B, C, or D. Aircraft weight estimationmethods could, and should, have been much better; in fact, when we look objectively at the F/A-28E/F, we see an airplanewith a brand-new wing, new fuselage and new empennage – in other words, a new airplane. This is, therefore, whatCongress would call a “new start.” Both Congress and the Department of Defense (DOD) had to be looking the other waywhen the Navy was permitted to slip this airplane by as a simple modification of an existing airplane.

In combat-maneuvering flight, the aircraft had severe “wing-drop” problems that defied resolution, despite the use of every

aerodynamic analytical tool available. Eventually, one test pilot cam up with a “leaky-fold-joint” fix that opened chordwiseair slots to aspirate the wing’s upper surface flow and thereby prevent the sharp stalling of one wing before the other. Thestalled more or less together, but much easier and more severely than before. This new fix is what the aerodynamicists call a“band aid.” It causes aircraft buffeting, which is generally a source of wing drag. But a “fix” that combined “acceptable”wing drop with “acceptable” buffeting had been achieved. One test pilot commented dryly, “I’d like the buffeting levels to

be a little lower so I could read the heads-up display!”

Owing to its high drag and weight (and probably other factors), the F/A-18E is significantly poorer in acceleration than theF/A-18A. Also, its combat ceiling is substantially lower, and its transonic drag rise is very high. We have stayed in touchwith some pilots at the Navy’s test center and have gathered some mind boggling anecdotal information. Here are someexamples:

An F/A-18A was used to “chase” an F-14D test flight. The F-14D was carrying four 2,000-pound bombs, two 280-gallondrop tanks, two Phoenix missiles and two Sidewinder air-to-air missiles. The chase airplane was in a relatively “clean”configuration with only a centerline fuel tank. At the end of each test flight, the chase airplane was several miles behind thetest airplane when the chase airplane reached “bingo” fuel and had to re turn to base.

An F/A-18E Super Hornet is tested using the same chase airplane, an earl ier model Hornet, in the same configuration. Thechase airplane does not need full thrust to stay with the test airplane.

An F/A-18E/F in maximum afterburner thrust cannot exceed Mach 1.0 in level flight below 10,000 feet even when it is inthe clean configuration (no external stores). At 10,000 feet, the F-14D can exceed Mach 1.6.

A quote from a Hornet pilot is devastatingly frank: “The aircraft is slower than most fighters fielded since the early 1960s.”

The most devastating comment came from a Hornet pilot who flew numerous side-by-side comparison flights withF/A-18E/F Super Hornets and says: “We outran them, we out-flew them and we ran them out of gas. I was embarrassed for them.”

Updating the F-14

In the January 1991 issue of Naval Aviation, an article reminded us of some history: “After the dive/bomber became a navalaircraft type in the mid-1930s, fighters were designed primarily as gun platforms. However, the strength and power thatcharacterized the F4U and F6F enabled them to be readily modified to fighter/bombers. Each could carry forward-firingrockets, two 1,000 pound bombs or a droppable fuel tank. The proportion of fighters assigned to fast carriers increased steadily from 25 percent of complement in 1942 to 50 percent in 1944 to 70 percent in 1945. The dual role made this greatincrease in air-to-air combat power possible with little loss in air-to-surface capability.”




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How about a Hellcat II, aka Tomcat II? The first order of business would be to resurrect as many retired F-14s (of anyconfiguration) as we can. Second, combine these with fleet F-14As, the remaining F-14As and even the Iranian F-14 assetsthat might be obtainable (Iran took delivery of approximately 80 F-14s under the Shah; about 30 are still airworthy). Third,design a program to upgrade all of these aircraft for F-14Ds. This may sound wild, but Grumman experience in restoringMalaysian A4D basket cases to mind condition in the ‘80s was very successful, and they were not even Grummanairplanes! Similar success in restoring fleet A-6s at Grumman’s St. Augustine, Florida, facility was achieved. It would appropriate for the Navy or DoD to launch a study by a blue ribbon team under aegis of NAVAIR. We estimate that about200 additional F-14s could be brought back into the fleet. The titanium box beams and bulkheads are nearly indestructibleas well as reparable using electron-beam welding; but this is not yet a Tomcat II.

Buying time with these programs would allow the convening of a design team – again led by NAVAIR – of contractor personnel, MIT scientists and other university help to study the cost of building new F-14s. We think the following designchanges to the F-14D are achievable for a new baseline airplane and later for block change improvements:

1. Increase high-value-weapon bring-back capability; this would mean that the F-14D, carrying heavy stores, would hit thearresting gear too fast. We could conclude that a bigger wing with more powerful high-lift flaps and slats is required, butfly-by-wire systems allow a more elegant solution.

2. With flaps down, the basic F-14 needs a down tail load to trim out the flap nose-down pitching moment. Allowing theaircraft to fly slightly unstable in pitch, now enabled by fly-by-wire technology, suggests the use of a canard, which would

produce uploads and relieve the down tail loads.

3. The net result of these changes is that an increase of 4,500 pounds in bring-back store weight could be allowed; this isequivalent to a decrease in approach speed of 12 knots. The relief of down tail loads also solves an aft fuselagemaneuvering fatigue problem and brings an air combat maneuvering lift increase by 19 percent. Turning (lift to drag) is alsoimproved by relieving down tail loads. This change could be readily achieved because no primary structure is involved. Afurther plus of this design change would be that the aircraft’s internal fuel capacity could be increased by several thousand

pounds.

4. We appreciate the value of staying with a variable-sweep design – especially for the podded, twin-engine F-14. First, wecould have a carrier aircraft with landing speeds in the order of 130 knots versus the F-4 Phantom at 145 knots. At the other end, the mission payload/range is greatly increased by flying unswept, as is air combat maneuvering. Why the latter?Because dedicated air combat occurs at below about 0.8 because of high turning drag – an arena in which the F-14’s20-degree sweep is optimal. And, of course, the F-14 has been to Mach 2.51 with four Sparrows loaded at 68 degrees of

wing sweep. It has flown to Mach 1.35 at 5,000 feet (813 knots IAS), at which point the throttle had to be retarded to avoid over-speed.

5. [At this point, the article jumps to what should be #5 in this list. It continues…]…be redesigned to cope with the level of instability induced by the larger glove, which is minus fiver percent in clean flight and minus 13 percent flaps down at themost aft CG. This is no big deal and, in fact, it may be within the capability of the existing F-14D bobweight system thattolerates some longitudinal instability. For reference, the Grumman X-29 was 45 percent instable!

6. The F-14D should have some reasonable stealth-enhancing additions – “sensible stealth” as we used to call it – whichwould have practically no impact on weight or performance! A lot of work was done to this end in around 1990; it included full-scale tests on real F-14s. Some radar signature experts know exactly what should be done. Comparing the basic radar signatures, the F-14 has a slight fundamental disadvantage: it is larger . Its tunnel mounted attack stores make, however,virtually no contribution to its signature, and it does not carry a forest of wing tanks and weapons on long-range strike

missions (this also keeps its signature down).

The baseline F-14D production aircraft defined above would allow these carefully considered modifications:

1. The installation of the F-119 or the F-120 engines. The F-119 has already been checked for fit. Upgrades of the GE F-110might also be viable. The objective would be a 40,000-pound class turbofan.

2. The installation of two-axis, vectorable, axially symmetric engine nozzles for super augmented pitch, roll and yawcontrol.

3. The installation of UHF antennas that would be embedded in the increased-chord leading-edge slats to allow onboarddetection and tracking of stealthy adversaries. Low-frequency radar works well against low-radar-cross-section objects.




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Arrays like this were tested at Grumman in around 1990.

In 1990, Grumman defined many versions of what it thought the F-14D could be. It was somewhat overdone in the stealtharena, but it incorporates most of the aforementioned ideas with very little design change or combat penalty. All thechanges are cosmetic “tin” and not basic to the structure.

A Word on Aircraft Design

Just as commercial airlines are reaching their design limitations as fighter designs have matured, they, too, have

encountered the limits imposed by the laws of physics. Fighters and airliners are in the same situation, but fighters include acouple of extra dimensions. For instance, a choice has to be made between supersonic flight and subsonic combatmaneuvering and cruise efficiency. The same is true of stealth versus electronic warfare. Pick one and design toward it. If you want a V/STOL, design one, but don’t try to make it into a tri-service fighter/bomber.

If you want a long-lasting, long-range fighter/bomber, design it from scratch for the mission as a new or upgraded design – preferably the latter. Then equip it with modern weapons, sensors, surveillance, communications and EW. Let the sensorsand computers – on board and remote – give the crew complete knowledge of the situation in the volume of air they aretrying to dominate also, and suggest the best plays. The electronics will continue to advance rapidly to provide capabilitiesthat are now only dimly perceived, but the basic airplane, regardless of who designs it, is quickly approaching the best thatit can be. In the meantime, remember to give the crew IR missiles and a Gatlin gun for those times at which Murphyintervenes and high-tech warfare once again deteriorates to the usual groveling dogfight.

The bottom line is that, unless aircraft like the F-14D continue to be on board, U.S. Navy aircraft carriers on their flightdecks, and most of those will be deployed with a few aircraft on their flight decks, and most of those will be versions of theHornet and the Super Hornet. Despite all protests to the contrary, with regard to standoff munitions and precision guided weapons, our carrier battle forces will not have the pulverizing power of their 1980s counterparts. When that time arrives, itwill be the beginning of the end for carrier forces as we know them today – and the end of their rapid availability to thePresident in times of need.

The future of NAVAIR

In 1975, an A-7 Corsair II was mounted on a pedestal outside the now closed Navy Master Jet Base, Cecil Field, Florida.On the base of the pedestal was a large bronze plaque bearing the inscription: “The main battery of the fleet.” The battlegroups in those days – equipped with Corsair Iis and A-6 Intruders – could truly “kick ass and take names.” Those daysmay be over – probably forever – unless strong USN action is taken. We can learn major lessons from our past. Lets hopethe Navy and the politicians remember to apply these lessons to the future. So Mr. President, ask not what your carriers cando for you, but what you can do for your carriers.

TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; MiscellaneousKEYWORDS:

Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.first 1-50, 51-70 next last

1 posted on 12/21/2001 9:30:46 AM PST by LSUfan

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To: LSUfan

A bump for Bombcats.

Doin' the Super-Hornet Dip!

2 posted on 12/21/2001 9:35:21 AM PST by El Sordo

[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: El Sordo

Great article.




7 10/14/2007

Let's see if the govt is smart or dumb on the next order??

Chicagofarmer

3 posted on 12/21/2001 9:38:55 AM PST by CHICAGOFARMER


To: LSUfan

The Navy should have never let the A-6 go. That was the best medium attack all weather aircraft ever produced.

4 posted on 12/21/2001 9:43:30 AM PST by dis.kevin


To: LSUfan

Bump for the JSF!

5 posted on 12/21/2001 9:48:34 AM PST by stainlessbanner


To: LSUfan

Wasn't the A/F-18 almost dropped during development because of its lack of legs? And isn't the F-18 a development of theF-17 from the mid-70's? It's impossible to kill these lousy aircraft programs. Don't start me on the Osprey.

And not only that--but I think F-18's are pretty homely, especially compared to an F-14.

Walt

6 posted on 12/21/2001 10:00:10 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa


To: LSUfan

In 1975, an A-7 Corsair II was mounted on a pedestal outside the now closed Navy Master Jet Base, Cecil Field, Florida.

On the base of the pedestal was a large bronze plaque bearing the inscription: “The main battery of the fleet.”

There used to a plastic kit of the A7 marketed that called it "The fist of the fleet."

But wasn't the A7 a disappointment also?

Walt

7 posted on 12/21/2001 10:02:36 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa


To: LSUfan

8 posted on 12/21/2001 10:04:18 AM PST by Southack


To: WhiskeyPapa

Wasn't the A/F-18 almost dropped during development because of its lack of legs? And isn't the F-18 a development of the

F-17 from the mid-70's? It's impossible to kill these lousy aircraft programs. Don't start me on the Osprey.

And not only that--but I think F-18's are pretty homely, especially compared to an F-14.

Northrup developed the F/17 in the 1970's. It was the prototype for the F/18. The original is in an naval air museum (or wasin the mid 1980s). That was in Pensacola, Florida.

There can be a lot of politics around military procurement.




7 10/14/2007

9 posted on 12/21/2001 10:12:08 AM PST by topher


To: topher

The Navy did NOT want a single-engine fighter (the F-16), based on their experience in Vietnam. Twin-engine aircraftmade it home with engine damage--while their single-engine brethren with the same damage went down.

10 posted on 12/21/2001 10:17:08 AM PST by Poohbah


To: LSUfan

This whole piece ignores the (extremely substantial) costs of RDT&Eing a new Tomcat, and it wouldn't enter the fleet until2012 at the earliest.

Once again, NAVAIR partisans push for an airplane that the budget will not support. Didn't we learn our lesson with theA-12?



To: LSUfan

the author spends a lot of good time defending his point, which is well made. He speaks of the area AND radius ofinfluence. (dropping by 23%) What he doesn't appear to talk about as well is the loss of the Phoenix AAM along with theTomcat. The "Slammer" is a fine missile, but it doesn't have the range or punch of a Phoenix. Also, I understand a modernvectored thrust aircraft can defeat any Slammer the pilot sees in time. Not so with the Phoenix.

Emotionally, I love the Tomcat, and it is definitely the 'baddest' looking aircraft when viewed nose on and loaded out. If theBuf can fly for 50 years, fo can the Tomcat.

12 posted on 12/21/2001 10:20:55 AM PST by Blueflag


To: dis.kevin

The Navy should have never let the A-6 go. That was the best medium attack all weather aircraft ever produced.

The Navy had a choice between procuring the A-6F, and RDT&Eing the A-12. They chose the latter, and drove it straightinto the ground.

Also, when the A-12 contractual default judgement is finally charged to the Navy, it will wipe out the entire year's NavalAviation funding line and then some.



To: Poohbah

Can't argue with the financials, but can the bean counters justify downgrading EVERY CAG in the fleet? What's the justification for that?

Unless of course the Super Hornet can be made truly Super.



To: Blueflag

Also, I understand a modern vectored thrust aircraft can defeat any Slammer the pilot sees in time. Not so with the Phoenix.

Two points: first, the Slammer is MUCH harder to see than the Phoenix is. Second, if the pilot is good enough to beat theSlammer, he WILL beat the Phoenix: it's not a dogfight missile, it was designed to splash large bombers. It's not especiallymaneuverable.




7 10/14/2007



To: Blueflag

We get the aircraft we can afford. Or we get no aircraft. Those are your choices. Congress is unwilling to fund anything asexpensive as the Super-Duper Tomcat would be.

The Navy needs to build a Common Support Aircraft to replace the C-2, E-2, and S-3. If they do not, then the aircraftcarrier is going to become irrelevant--because it will become just another set of TACAIR strike/fighter birds, just like the

Air Force, only more expensive. NAVAIR needs to develop unique capabilities that nobody else does--or NAVAIR isgoing to disappear.



To: topher

Northrup developed the F/17 in the 1970's. It was the prototype for the F/18.

Truth be known, the YF-17 lost a competitive flyoff to the F-16 as the lightweight fighter compliment to the F-15. The AirForce rated it second best 30 years ago

17 posted on 12/21/2001 10:31:21 AM PST by pfflier


To: Poohbah

We get the aircraft we can afford. Or we get no aircraft. Those are your choices. Congress is unwilling to fund anything as

expensive as the Super-Duper Tomcat would be.

Would that be the $100M F-22 or the $60M JSF?

18 posted on 12/21/2001 10:31:59 AM PST by GallopingGhost


To: Poohbah

I agree-- just depends upon what mission the flight is sent up for. If the mission is fleet defense, the Super Hornet just won'tcut it when it comes to flying CAP. "Fighters" seeking ACM aren't a direct threat to the fleet. It's the missile carrying'bombers' that are, and we want them splashed before they get in range. The Phoenix was designed for just that mission, and while the SOVIET threat is gone, the ALCM threat is as real as ever in Asia. An F-14D carrying Phoenix, AND AIM-7sAND AIM-9s AND 20MM is a better fleet defense and CAP platform than the F-18X. Why kill it except for finances?(BTW, I honestly don't buy the argument about the F-18 being insufficient for air-mud).

Question for you -- the flight profile of a Phoenix, as I understand it, is to fly very high above an approaching aircraft and plummet down on it at very high speed and frag with a wide lethality cone, whereas the Slammer is morehunt-you-and-kill-you, and can be physically evaded and defeated. Why do you think the Phoenix in actual use is easier (for a missile carrying platform)to evade?



To: LSUfan

Isn't the newly awarded Lockheed JSF scheduled to replace both the F14 and F18? If so, why not a comparison of the JSF'scapabilities vs. the F14. Perhaps the JSF is too early in development to make any reasonable comparisons. Thoughtsanyone?

20 posted on 12/21/2001 10:36:11 AM PST by TaxMe


To: LSUfan




17 10/14/2007

A-7 Corsair II was mounted on a pedestal outside the now closed Navy Master Jet Base, Cecil Field, Florida.

I used to drive through those gates all the time in the 80's. I didn't realize they closed the base. Pity.

21 posted on 12/21/2001 10:36:11 AM PST by Wm Bach


To: GallopingGhost

Figure on the Super Duper Tomcat running at about $150 million. Still wanna play?

NAVAIR can afford, at most, one and a half new aircraft programs on top of the Super Hornet and JSF. The Super 'TronHornet (EA-18, replacing the EA-6B) would be the "half." The most urgent requirement for NAVAIR is an S-3/C-2replacement, and the E-2 is getting long in the tooth as well. We have not funded any such replacement--and if we don'tstart NOW, we're going to have a Navy that requires Air Force tanker support, Air Force AWACS support, and the AirForce is going to have to take up outer zone ASW patrols for the carrier AND perform the COD mission as well, just tokeep NAVAIR "viable."

"Jointness" only goes so far--the Navy seems to be expecting everyone else to take up THEIR unique missions for them.Ain't gonna happen.



To: Poohbah

"we get the aircraft we can afford "

Actually, it comes down to understanding and justifying the mission/role and the need to prevail in that mission/role.

Arguments like the one you suggest got us aircraft like the Brewster Buffalo, the Devastator, and the Phantom with nocannon. Argument about mission/role -- winning the war, defeating the enemy got us aircraft like the P-51, the F4U(Corsair), the F-15E and the Tomcat.

Convince me the mission does not exist or is not worth winning, every time, and I'll buy the financial argument. It's notabout exorbidance, it's about winning when you must.



To: LSUfan

24 posted on 12/21/2001 10:41:18 AM PST by Incorrigible


To: Poohbah

BTW, I'm with you all the way on the CSA. Multiple platforms are silly and the mission does not support the argument formultiple platforms in the future.

I agree completely with you on that one. ;-)



To: LSUfan

The long-range A-6 bomber has gone forever

26 posted on 12/21/2001 10:42:35 AM PST by NC_Libertarian




17 10/14/2007


To: pfflier

The YF-17 was never designed for the same role as an F-14. The F-14 was built to make things go boom. The YF-17 was built as a lighweight figther, which is why the USAF went with the more-versatile F-16.

Anyone know how the F/A-18 performs on SEAD?

27 posted on 12/21/2001 10:42:43 AM PST by jae471


To: OldDominion

FYI

28 posted on 12/21/2001 10:44:09 AM PST by Al B.


To: Poohbah

One last point -- If (or should we say when...) the JSF is a reality for carrier ops, then the F-14 can happily retire (with myconsent, not that they need it).



To: Blueflag

The ALCM threat pretty much evaporated when the ex-Soviet space program collapsed. Those bombers were part of anintegrated system that required satellite data to do long-range surveillance.

Question for you -- the flight profile of a Phoenix, as I understand it, is to fly very high above an approaching aircraft and

plummet down on it at very high speed and frag with a wide lethality cone, whereas the Slammer is more

hunt-you-and-kill-you, and can be physically evaded and defeated. Why do you think the Phoenix in actual use is ea sier (for

a missile carrying platform)to evade?

Several problems: the radar is not LPI, so any fighter being attacked is going to have LOTS of warning. Second, it's a very

large light-colored object against a dark background. Third, that high speed DOES limit its maneuverability. Fourth, andthis is the really bad part, if the bogey manages to generate between 60 and 90 degrees of turn, his fighter will effectivelydisappear--because the bogey's Doppler will disappear. A bomber can't do it; a loaded fighter still can.

My objection to the Phoenix is in the dogfight role, not for splashing heavy bombers.



To: Blueflag

Quit whining at me--go whine at Congress. They say how much money we get.



To: jae471

The F/A-18 did most of the Navy SEAD work (teaming with the EA-6b). It definitely fired most of the HARMs fromDesert Storm to Enduring Freedom.



To: NC_Libertarian

I think the A-6 is phat.




17 10/14/2007




17 10/14/2007

33 posted on 12/21/2001 10:51:36 AM PST by NC_Libertarian


To: LSUfan

"To complete the picture of mission distances, the S-3s would have to dash back to the CVs, hot-refuel, and meet t he raid

coming out of Afghanistan, which would be much in need of JP-4 cocktails."

Huh? Navy jets use JP5.

"The F-14D can pick up the A-6 role..."

NOTHING

can pick up the role of the Intruder. I was a VA-165 Boomer in Desert Storm and our airplanes kicked serious @ss.

"Remember that there are - or there can be - 24 F-14Ds on a ship such as the John C. Stennis (CVN-71)."

The USS Roosevelt is CVN-71.

" Although the Navy has been working very hard to correct F/A-18E/F OPEVAL problems, it is worth summing them up: the production of the F/A-18E/F is significantly overweight with respect to its specifications (30,000 pounds empty weight).

This is far in excess of what one would expect for a variant of an existing F/A-18 A, B, C, or D."

Huh? The F/A-18A, B, C, or D have a 1 to1 thrust to weight ratio. Each of the GE F404 Turbofan engines has a 16000 lbthrust rating, which places the jet at around 32,000 lbs. Your argument is slightly overstated. I do most vehemently agreewith your position that unless we seriously alter our thinking about Naval Aviation post Clinton we will be in deep kimshi.I've worked on F/A-18 and A-6 aircraft as an electrician and avionics tech in the USNavy and have a thing for bothairplanes. Thanks for the great article!

34 posted on 12/21/2001 11:05:43 AM PST by gcraig





17 10/14/2007

Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: LSUfan

Great article, written by guys who seem to have their priorities straight: winning wars and saving money.

I see yet another argument for the approach they recommend. We are entering an age when smart drones could be part ofthe air attack mix. The longer range fighter/bomber could then act as a forward control platform utilizing its RPV assets as

part of either the dogfight or to deliver ait-to-surface ordinance.

Why not rework and improve an existing platform under those circumstances? Good move.

36 posted on 12/21/2001 11:16:02 AM PST by Carry_Okie


To: RVS_

Good sir, a collection of PowerPoint slides is NOT an aircraft development program. There is NO funding in place for suchan effort.



Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: toddhisattva

The factory tooling is probably gone, unless Northrop Grumman was willing to pay for storing it (and given the extremelyslim profit margins in the defense sector, they probably weren't).



To: Poohbah

The factory tooling is probably gone, unless Northrop Grumman was willing to pay for storing it

I knew a guy who worked for a sub contractor in Indy at least as late as 1995. They made all the heat exchangers for the

F-14. At that time all tooling for the F-14 was to be kept in storage for future use if not currently being used in production.This applied to all production equipment for the aircraft. If the sub wouldnt store it, Northrop would buy it.

40 posted on 12/21/2001 11:39:19 AM PST by Ford Fairlane


To: LSUfan

Bump for later when I have time to download the pictures.

41 posted on 12/21/2001 11:56:13 AM PST by hattend


To: Poohbah

1) I'm not whining at you, I'm disagreeing with you on a couple points. Pick better fights.

2) To dismiss the ALCM (or SlCM) threat as requiring a Russian satellite recon system is naive, considering the likelytheatre of operations in Asia. There are many assets that can find out fleets, some in orbit, some sub-sea, others are humint.Can't go with you on the diminished threat of OTH launch of sea skimmers (from sub-sahara to Coral Sea). CAN agree withyou that there aren't likely as many aerial platforms around to launch them.

3) Whether it's armed with the Phoenix or the Slammer, the F-14 is a better CAP asset than the F-18X. Having 'said' that,the Hornet driver a few posts up might disagree and call for a fly-off

4) If money is the issue, keep the F-14D, kill the Super Hornet, and over-fund the JSF.




17 10/14/2007

5) All this is mute if the Super Hornet can carry out its mission and role in CAP and fleet defense.

6) I value your opinion on these threads. Don't go away mad, and don't p resume I don't understand the financial aspects ofcompeting/proposed/imaginary/specious NAVAIR programs in an increasingly 21st century e-war world.

42 posted on 12/21/2001 12:42:39 PM PST by Blueflag


To: toddhisattva

First use of ACSI Red in DoD might just be to figure out what to do if the bad guys splice anthrax genes into e coli. DoDand the ususal suspects are already looking at a secure, 'private' network that makes I2 look like a piker, and a gridcomputing system that'll make your SAN bleed.

43 posted on 12/21/2001 12:45:59 PM PST by Blueflag


To: jae471

The YF-17 was never designed for the same role as an F-14

Never said it was. It was designed, by Northrop as direct competition for the F-16 under Air Force flyoff directives...andcame in second best.

44 posted on 12/21/2001 1:29:49 PM PST by pfflier[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies ]

To: Poohbah

(EA-18, replacing the EA-6B)

The proposal is for developing the F/A-18G(Growler) which would replace the EA-6B. The F/A-18G would have the samelimitations that the EF-111 Raven had and the only advantage would be speed. It would take three F/A-18G's to replicatethe mission capabilities of one EA-6B. Also, preliminary cost analysis show that it would be cheaper to reopen the Prowlerline than to introduce a new platform. 104 sets of new wings have been purchased so the entire Prowler fleet will berewinged and the ADVCAP upgrade will keep the EA-6B's in the fleet for a long time to come.

Incidentally, Gillcrist is one sharp guy. He blows the fallacies about stealth technology out of the water in his article TheMyth of Stealth

45 posted on 12/21/2001 3:58:38 PM PST by SMEDLEYBUTLER


To: SMEDLEYBUTLER

Uh, Smedley...there is an overriding concern, and that is that the Prowler cannot keep up with the strike birds--with the A-6gone, EA-6B is a ball and chain on the strike package. Also, the EA-6B cannot handle itself in any air-to-air threat.

46 posted on 12/21/2001 4:13:04 PM PST by Poohbah


To: Poohbah

Keeping up with the strike package can be dealt with. Launching the Prowlers prior to the strike and coordinating theirsimultaneous arrival at the insertion point has been the standard protocol and most jamming is done in the standoff modeanyway. Despite some attempts that didn't get very far, the A-6 didn't have the ability to engage in air-to-air either and it

proved to be the most effective, lethal strike platform in the history of Naval aviation. It should be noted that no plane hasever been lost when accompanied by an EA-6B for SEAD.



To: SMEDLEYBUTLER

However, that means you have the high-value airframes out well ahead of the fighters...and if the bad guy gets wise, you




now have the EA-6B in a dogfight mode.



To: Poohbah

Incorrect. Prudent mission tasking always dictates the launching of fighter cover for CAP with the Prowlers or rendezvouswith fighters prior to arrival at the insertion point. If enroute the Prowler detects a threat emitter, it can be suppressed with aHARM, which the EA-6B is/can be armed with.



To: SMEDLEYBUTLER

But now we're back to the same problem...there is an inherent mismatch between airframes here.

Also, if ECM is THAT manual-ops intensive, install a datalink and have two more ECMOs back on the ship.



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