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Transcript of Mark Sisson
Bulletproof Radio Podcast #314, Mark Sisson
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Bulletproof Radio Podcast #314, Mark Sisson
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Speaker1: BulletproofRadio.Astateofhighperformance.
Dave: Hey,it'sDaveAspreywithBulletproofRadio.Today'scoolfactofthedaywillbecelebrated
potentiallybyhusbandseverywherebecausesciencenowhasproventhatyoushouldsleepnaked.Thereasonforthatisthatbywearingpajamas,you'reprobablyinterruptingyourbody'snaturaldeclineintemperaturethat'spartofyournightlycircadianrhythm.Also,whenyoucooldownatnight,itmeansyouincreasegrowthhormonesandyoudecreasecortisolwhichmeansyougetbettersleep,reducebellyfatandmoresexytime.Thatwasprobablymyfavoritecoolfactofthedayin300episodesorso.
Beforewegetgoingontheshow,youmightnotknowthatwehaveaBrainOctaneOil3packavailableonthewebsitewhichsavesyouabout$14whenyoustockuponit.BrainOctaneOilisasubsetofMCToil.Itturnsout,there'squitealotofMCToilouttherebutdifferentMCTsdodifferentthings.ThisisthemostketogenicMCTinexistence,madeintheUS.It'sawesomestuff.It'swhatIputinmyBulletproofcoffeeeverymorning.Youknowwheretogetit.Bulletproof.com.
Today'sguestisafriend,aguywhoseworkIgreatlyrespectandaninnovatorinthisspace.Oneofthefoundingfathersofthewholewayofthinkingforpaleo.Ifyou'rewatchingontheYouTubechannel,youalreadyrecognizehimprobably.It'snoneotherthanMarkSisson.Ifyou'realongtimelistener,youknowMark'sbeenonBulletproofRadiobutit'sactuallybeentoolong.He'sapaleoancestralhealthexpertandenduranceathleteandauthorofthebestsellingPrimalBlueprint.Ifyou'vereadthenotesinthebackofTheBulletproofDiet,you'llnotethatIthankedMarkforhisworkintheacknowledgementsectionbecausehisstuffislegit,includingMark'sdailyapplewhichgets3,000,000visitorsamonthwhichissizeblog.He'scertainlyabiohacker.
ThereasonI'veinvitedhimbackontheshowisthathejustcameoutwithareallycoolnewbookcalledPrimalEnduranceandIwantedtodiginwithhimbecauseheisbothabiologistbytraining,enduranceathleteandjustanasskickerinallthings.Mark,welcometotheshow.
Mark: Thanksforhavingme,Dave.Goodtoseeyouagain.
Dave: WhatmadeyouwriteabookaboutPrimalEndurance?IthoughtyoudidheavyliftingandyougoswimmingoutthereinMalibuandallthis.
Mark: No.It'sreallyinterestingbecauseforthelongesttime,Iwasanenduranceathleteformostofmycareer.That'showIlearnedalotofwhatIknowaboutfitnessanddietandexerciseandtrainingbutoverthepastdecade,I'vespentafairamountoftimetakingbackallthestuffIsaidabouttraininganddecryingtheconceptoftrainingformarathonsandlongdistancetriatholons
Dave: Chroniccardio.
Mark: …chroniccardio.ChroniccardiobecameatermthatArtDevanyandIcoinedabout11yearsago
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nowtodescribethisactivitythatsomanyenduranceathletes,myselfincludedintheolddaysundergowhichisbasicallytrainingataheartratethat'sabout75to80%ofyourmaxheartrateforlongperiodsoftime.Alotofenduranceathletethinkthat'swhereyouneedtotrain.Asaresult,Isawitpersonally,mycareerbasicallyevaporatedbyIover-trainedbutthenIsawitinathletesIwascoaching.Peopletraintoohardandtheytraintoolong.Theyweren'tgettingtheresultsthattheysaidtheywanted.
IstartedwritingallthesenegativethingsaboutendurancetrainingandIstartedgoingalmostrhetoricallywhywouldyouwanttodothat?Whywouldyouwanttorunamarathonandbeatyourbodyupandincuralltheseachesandpains?
Dave: Thefirstmarathonerdied,right?
Mark: Yeah.Reallydidn'tbodewellfortherestofus.Then,asIgotintothelifestyleofthePrimalBlueprintandIstartedtalkingaboutallthewaysinwhichwenaturallyimproveendurancebymovingaroundalotatalowlevelofactivity,onlyliftingheavythingsonceinawhileandonlysprintingonceaweekbutreallygoingallout,notjustdoingintervalsbutgoingallout.
Istartedthinkacoupleofyearsago,there'salotofnewtechnologynow.Theabilityofthebodytoburnfatwhichweassumedforthelongesttimewasverylimitedandwereallyhadtorelyoncarbohydrateifweweregoingtobeatallcompetentinendurancecompetition.Thatchanged.Thiswholeconceptofutilizingketonesinsteadofglucoseandallowingthebraintoaccessketonesduringanendurancecontestandtonotfeellikeyouhavetoshutdown.Thatnewtechnologyhit.Then,someothertechnologieswithheartratevariability.Brockknowsalotaboutthat.
TheguywhoIcoachedforyearswhoisthenumber3triathleteintheworld,wholaterbecametheheadofmypublishingcompany,westartedtothink,"Well,maybethere'sawayinwhichwecanteachpeople,coachpeopletotrainfortheseendurancecontestswheretheydon'tgetbeatup,wheretheydon'tgetburnedout,wheretheydon'tgetover-trained,wheretheydon'tgetsickallthetime,wheretheydon'tgetinjured."That'swhatbegattheconceptofthisbook,PrimalEndurance.
Dave: Thatisanepicbiohack.ThewayI'vedefinedbiohackingischangingtheenvironmentaroundyouandinsideyousoyouhavecontrolofyourbiology.Iloveyourperspectiveonthis,Markbecauselook,Ididit.Irealizeditwasn'tgoodformebutIstillwantedtodoit.I'mgoingtodoitanywaybutI'mgoingtomakeitgoodforme.Allright.Thatisabsolutelygrabbinglifebythethroatandsaying,"I'mgoingtodoit.I'mgoingtodoit."
Greatrespectforthatperspective.IusedtobealongdistancecyclisteventhoughIweighed…Idon'tknowhowmuchIweighedatthetimebutIwascarryingatleast50extrapoundsthatweren'ttheframeofmyroadbike.Theyweremylovehandles.AsateenagerandIwastryingtoloseweightandgettingstretchmarksandall.Irememberthatfeelingofbonking,whenyou'relike,"Ididn'teatenoughmuffins.WhatamIgoingtodo?"Itwassohorrible.Ineverdidloseweightfromthatapproach,eventhoughI'msureIdidsomebeneficialthingsandprobablysomeharmfulthings,too.
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Hereweare.Forme,that's25yearsagoandyou'rewritingabooknowthatsays,actually,with
therightchanges,youcandothingsandhowendurance…Ultramarathons,isthispartoftheplan?Marathons?
Mark: Absolutely.Forme,personally?
Dave: Yeah.
Mark: I'mout.Idon't…
Dave: Me,too,bytheway.
Mark: Yeah.I'mnotinterestedincompetinganymore.Iwasaverygoodenduranceathlete.IfinishedfifthintheUSNationalChampionshipsinthemarathonin1980.IwentontofinishfourthatIronmaninHawaii.Thatwasthepinnacleofmysuccess.Actually,then,IalsosettheworldrecordontheVersaClimber,thatclimbingmachineinthegym,
Dave: Yeah.
Mark: …forthemileclimbinmylate30s.Iwasthataerobicendurance-based.
WhatIrecognizedwasthatmostofmytrainingwasconcentrated…Iwastrainingmyselftohurtandbeabletohandleit.Iwasn'ttrainingmyselftobeefficient.That'swhat'schanged.What'schangedhasbeenthisnotionthatifwecanalterourenvironmenttoupregulategenesthatassistusinburningfatsmoreefficiently,morecleanly,thatwecanincreasemitochondrialbiogenesis,actuallyincreaseamountofmitochondriathatwehave.
Dave: That'ssobig.
Mark: It'shuge.IncreasetheefficiencyofthosemitochondriabecausemitochondriahavetheirownDNAthatrespondtothesesignalssowecanputmorefatthrough,wecanunburdenthebodyofhavingtotakeinhugeamountsofexogenouscarbohydratewhichthenlowerstheloadoffreeradicaldamagethatwewouldotherwiseincur,puttingsomuchsugarthroughthebody.
Allthesethingscometogether,theyconvergetocreateanopportunityforpeoplewhoaregoingtobegoingatarelativelyhighrateofoutput.Whatweliketotalkaboutisthisreallyapplieswelltoultramarathonersandcenturyridersandtriathletes.Weknowtherearepeoplewhoaresettingrecordsnow,trainingketogenically,trainingwiththismethodologythatwe'reusingtosetpersonalbestforsurebutalsotostartingtosetworldrecords.Thosedistancesarecomingdown.Now,whilewesaid,"Well,itcertainlyappliestopeoplewhoarejustgoingtobeburningfatover12hoursor15hours."Now,itsapplyingtopeoplewhoaregoingtobeburningfatpredominantlyover2hours.
Ithinkthenextbreakthroughinworldrecordmarathoningwillcomefromaketogenicathletewhohasputthetimeinbecauseit'salongadaptationprocessattheelitelevel.Youget80%of
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yourbenefitsinthefirst21days.Then,thenext10%mighttake6monthsandthefinal10%mighttakeanotheryeartokickin.Ifyou'reaneliteathlete,youhavetofactorthatintoyourcareerandhowmuchareyouwillingtotakeayearoffandtrainthiswaytocomebackandbestrongerthanallyourpeers.
Ifyou'reacitizenathlete,anagegroupathlete,whynotstartthisrightawayandgetmoreefficientatyourabilitytoperformworkatarelativelyhighlevelofoutputbybeingmoreefficientfromtheworkyoudidinthegymtrainingtosustainpower,fromtheworkyoudidatthetrainingtable,byeatingmorefatandcuttingbackonsimplesugarsandothercarbslikethatandbybeingreally,reallysmartaboutthetimeyouspendactuallytraininginthefield.
Dave: You'verejectedconsistencyfortrainingandyou'veaddedhugeamountsofvariabilityintoit?
Mark: Yeah.I'maskeptic.I'macynicactuallymorethana…Imean,I'm…
Dave: Screwthoseskeptics.They'renotstrongenough.Theycandobetter.
Mark: Yeah,exactly.Iquestionjustabouteverything.Certainly,that'swhatgotmemymonikeratMarksDailyAppleandthethingsthatI'vewrittenbecauseIquestionauthorityandIquestionconventionalwisdom.Whenwelookatallofthevariablesinputtingtogetheratrainingprogram,itturnsoutthathumansarefractal,thatourbehaviorpatternswerefractalovermillionsofyears,thatourbodyadaptstothatfractalnessalmostbetterthanitdoestoarotemetronomicconsistency.
Justasageneralruleofthumb,oneofthelittlebulletpointsonthebookisbemoreinconsistentwithyourtrainingtoracemoreconsistentlywell.Whatwemeanbythatis,ifyouhaveatrainingcalendarlaidout.Here'swhatI'mgoingtodoMondayandTuesdayandWednesdayandIhaveallmyworkoutsplannedforthenext2months,wehaven'tbuiltinalotofthenecessaryvariabilitytoaccountforwhathappenswhenyouwakeuponemorningandyoudon'tfeelright.Youstillgoingtodothatworkout?Yougoingtotakethedayoff?Areyougoingtoutilizethestrategyofheartratevariability?Justgiveyoucluesastowhatyououghtnotdo.
Conversely,maybeyouhaveadayplannedwhereit'saneasyday.You'rejustfeelinglikeyou'rejumping,chompingatthebit,there'snoreasonwhymaybeyoucouldn'tputtheFridayworkoutthatwasgoingtobeareallyhardworkouttodaywhichisTuesday.
Whatwe'reteachingiswe'reteachinganintuitiveabilityofeachpersontodigdownandunderstandhowthebodyworksandgrockhowtheenzymesystemsworkandhowtrainingworksothatyoucanintuitivelytraintoyourmaximumpotentialgiventhevariablesofhowmuchtimeyouspendworking,howmuchtimeyouwanttospendwithyourfamily,justyourgeneticlimitsbecausesomepeoplearejustnotgoingtoruna2hourand20minutemarathonandbutwe'retryingtoteachthroughthebookhere'showyoucansetupastrategythatyouknowallthesedifferentvariablesandyoucaninsertthemintoyourownpersonalequationandcomeupwiththeidealoutcome.
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Dave: WhenIwas,Idon'tknow,22,Ihadtohave3kneesurgeries.Thedoctorsaid,"You'reluckyyoucanreallywalk."Actually,Ionlyhad2kneesurgeries.I'mlike,"Youknow,I'mgoingtogethealthy.I'mgoingtolosethis100pounds,"soIstartedworkingoutanhourandahalfaday,45minutesofcardio,45minutesofmaximumoutputweights6daysaweek.I'mlike,"Idon'tcareifI'msick.Idon'tcareifIonlyslept2hours.I'mgoingtogotothegym.It'swhatIdo."
Igotaddictedtoit.Ididthisfor18monthsandattheendof18months,Icouldbenchpressallmyfriends.Iwasstillfat.Ididn'tloseanyweight.IgotstrongandI'veseenthis.MyfriendAlexLightmaninSantaMonica.Hecanrun2hoursaday.He's78poundsoffatonhimthathecan'tgetridofwiththatstrategy.Youtalkaboutthisrecoverythingandallthat.Backthen,noonetalkedabouthowvaryingbasedonhowyoufeelortakingarestdayorgettingextrasleep,howthatwasgoingtomakeanydifference.
Whendidyoufirststartreallyrealizingthis?Atthattimeinthe80swhenyouwerewinningorwasthiswayafter?
Mark: No,no,no.Itreallykickedin.Iretiredin'82.Itook5yearsoffofanysortoftraininghard.Ibecameapersonaltriathlete.BecauseI'ddoneIronman,Ihadacacheaboutme.Intheearly80s,Icouldcommand$100anhourtotrainpeople.Thatwasgreatmoneyinthosedays.AswesayinMalibu,somepeoplecanliveonthatinthosedays.
WhatIwasdoing,IwaswalkingorIwasjogging13minutemileswithmyclientswhowerenot…Theyweremaybehousewiveslookingtoloseweightortheywerebusinessmenlookingtojustbecomemoreefficientatwhattheydidbuttheyweren'tnecessarilytryingtobeworld-classathlete.Theywerejusttryingtogetintoshape.Certainly,IhaddialedinpartofthedietsoIwasabletogivethemthewisdomofthedietaryadvicethatbecamethePrimalBlueprint.
Itwasmytraining4hoursadayataverylowlevelofthisactivity.Then,onceaweek,IwouldgotothetrackandIwoulddomyworkout.Itwouldjustbea20minuteora30minuteintervalsession.
Fiveyearslater,Iendupcoachinganeliteteamoftriathletesthattravelaroundtheworldandwerethebestintheworld.I'mthecoach.I'malreadyoldbythen.Igetintosomeoftheraceswiththeseguys.I'mkeepingupwiththem.I'mgoing,"Waitaminute.Itook5yearsoff,justdoingeasystuff.AllIdidwasmyownworkoutonceortwiceaweek.Ididsomestuffinthegym.IreconfiguredmydietbutI'matfitnowasIwaswhenIcalledmyselfaneliteathleteandnowI'manoldcoach."I'minmylate30snowandI'menteringworldchampionship.IwonmyagegroupintheworldchampionshipduathlonattheDesertPrincessandfinished11thoverall.
Itwaslike,okay,thatwasthelightthatwentoninmyheadthattherewasreallysomethingtothislow-leveltrainingcombinedwiththeoccasionalall-outreallyhardtrainingthatfirstofallmademesane,keptmesanebecauseIwasn'tputtingin30hoursaweekof75to85%heartrateallthetime.Iwasn'ttrainingmyselfsimplytohurtbecausethathadbeentheold…Theoldwayoftrainingwasyougooutandyoudoanhourrunora2hourrun.Ifyourheartratesat80to85%ofyourmax,you'rebasicallytrainingyourselftowithstandthatinaracewhenyoufinallygettoacompetition.
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Whatyou'renotdoinginthatcaseisyou'renottrainingyourbodytoburnfat.You'renot
trainingyourbodytobecomemoreefficient.You'resimplytrainingyourbraintowithstandthepainandyou'reover-trainingyourheart,wenowknow.You'reliterallydamagingyourheartifyou'redoingthatamountofhardtrainingallthetime.
ItwasthatcombinationofseeingwhatalowlevelofconsistentlylowlevelofactivitywouldstillgenerateaerobicbenefitsandmakememoreefficientwhenIfinallydidgetintoracing.That'sreallywhenthelightwenton.Again,thatwasbackin'85or'86.It'salmost30yearsago.
Dave: Itseemsliketrainingyourselftotoleratesufferingisabadgeof…It'sabadgeofcourage.It'swhatyoucando.Ifindthatifyouwanttotakeanobesepersonandgetthemtoworkouteveryday,especiallywithoutchangingtheirdiet,theywillbesufferingathletesinthattheywillbereallygoodattoleratingsufferingandsettingasidethepainanddoingitanywaybutwhenyoudoitright,it'snotsupposedtobesuffering.I'vedevelopedanintolerancetosufferinginthatIhaveahighcapacityforsuffering.Ijustdon'twanttodoit.IbelievethatifI'ms,I'mprobablynotdoingitaseffectivelyasIcould.It'sausefulsignal.
Mark: It'sagreatsignal.That'sexactlyright.There'salittlebitofsufferinghastoentertheequationifyouwanttobegoodbutI'mtalkingaboutalittlebit.I'mnottalkingaboutpracticingsufferingeveryday.
Dave: It'snotsufferingforsufferingsake."I'magoodpersonbecauseI'mput…"No.Butsomanypeopleusethat
Mark: Nobutsomanypeopleusethat."I'magoodpersonbecauseIwenttothegym.GodispunishingmebecauseI'mnotlosingweightandI'mputtingallthetimein."Italkaboutitforyears,I'vetalkedaboutallthepeopleIknowatthegymthatIgotothathavegone,therunthetreadmill45minutes5daysaweek.Theystillgotthesame25poundstoloseexceptthey'renowalittlebitmoregiggly.It'sactuallyworse.Itshouldn'tbethatway.
Peoplegetcaughtupandthisisoneofthetaxthatwetalkaboutin…Itisaddictive.It'saddictivebecausewhenyoudothathighlevelheartratetrainingonadailybasiswhichthebodyrecognizesisnothealthyandshouldnotbedoing,youcreateendorphins.Endorphinsarenotsomewonderfulgodmoleculethatweshouldallbeseekingonaregularbasistomakeusfeelgood.Endorphinsareasurvivalmechanism.Endorphinsevolvedwhen,beingchaseddowntheveldtortheplainsbyananimalandyou'vesurvivedthusfarbutnowyou'recoweringupinatreeandyouwanttosurviveratherthanjustgiveuplikeadeerintheheadlights.Endorphinsaresupposedtomakeyoufeelgood,tobeabletoovercomeandgettothenextlevelofsurvival.
Farbeitfrommetodictatewhatevolutionhadinmindbutmysenseisthatendorphinsweretobedeployedonaveryinfrequentbasisasasurvivalmechanismbecauseintheolddays,ifyouwereinasurvivalsituationeveryday,youwouldgagafterawhile.Itwasanumbersgamethatwasgoingtotakeyoudown.Thisideathatwechaseendorphins,we'rechasingtherunnershigh…
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Dave: It'sbadnews.It'saddictive.
Mark: It'sfalseeconomy.It'saddictive.It'salso,bytheway,it'sareasonwhysomanysubstance
abusersgravitatetoenduranceathleticsbecauseit'sreplacingoneaddictionwithanother.We'restilltalkingaboutopiates.It'sjustanandrogynousopiateinsteadversusonethatyoushootup.Anyway,that'smytakeonthiswholeconceptofpainandsufferingandI'magoodpersonbecauseIgotothegymandwhycan'tIlosetheworkoutbecauseI'mgoingtothegym.
Thereasonyoucan'tlosetheweightwhenyougotothegym,especiallyifyou'reworkinghardonadailybasisisbecauseyou'reburningsugar.Yougotothegym,you'reraisingyourheartratesohighthatyou'reburningmostlytheglycogenthat'sstoredinyourmusclesorsomeothergelpacksthatyou'retaking.You'relockingthefatintothefatcells.Itcan'tgetout.Asaresult,yougethomeandyousay,"Well,Ijustspent45minutesoranhourandahalfonthetreadmill.IhavetoreplenishmyglycogensothatIcangodoitagaintomorrow."
It'sthisviciouscycleofdepletingsugar,thengoinghomeandeatingmorecarbohydratetoreplenishsugarsothatyoucangodoitagainandburnmorecaloriesbutovertime,thebrainiswiredtotryandovercompensateforthatinsultthatyougaveitthatday.Thetendency,unlessyou'rereallyagiftedenduranceathleteandyou'rea5'11"132poundmanwho'samarathoner,thetendencyisforthebodyovertimetoaddthoseexcesscaloriesasfat.Eventhoughyou'reinthegymdoingtheworkandyou'resweatingandyou'reburningcalories,becauseyouhaven'ttrainedyourbodytoburnoffitsexcessfatandyoubecomesodependentonsugar,it'sthisratholedownwhichyoufall.
Dave: There'safewoutspokensportstrainerpeoplewhoarestillscreamingaboutcaloricburden.Usuallyscreaming,it'slike,"IhavehighcortisolbecauseI'mnotfeedingmyselfwell,"voice.Whatdoyousaytothepeoplewhogoouttheresaying,"It'saboutthecalories.It'saboutthecalories?"
Mark: It'snotaboutthecalories.It'saboutefficiency.It'sabouthowdoyoutakethosecaloriesandconvertthemtoenergy.
Dave: Yes!It'sefficiency.
Mark: It'sefficiency.Whatwe'veseenwithprimalenduranceisthewaywetrainwhenwe'reactuallydoingaerobictraining,whateveryouwanttocallit,cardiooraerobicorwhatever,it'sataratethatisthehighestpossiblerateyoucangoasthelimiteratwhichyoucanstillputmostlyoxygenthroughyourbodyandnotaccumulatelacticacid.Thatheartratehasbeendeterminedgenerallytobe180minusyourage.
Forinstance,I'm62so180minus62is118.Iwouldlimitmytrainingheartrateto118.Imightgivemyself3or4beatsaminutebecauseofmyhistoryofhavingtrainedhardenoughtodothisbutthatissoridiculouslylowcomparedtowhatIusedtoraceandtrainat.
Dave: Oneeighty?
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Mark: WhenIsettheworldrecordfortheVersaClimber,Iheld186beatsaminute.Iworeaheart
monitor,186beatsaminutefor22minutes.
Dave: Haveyouevermeasuredyourejectionfraction?
Mark: Notrecently.Atthatheartrate,theejectionfractionisn'teventhatsignificant.
Dave: It'stiny.
Mark: Yeah.It'stiny.
Dave: Italmosthastobesmallwhenyourheart'sbeatingthatfast.
Mark: Yeah,yeah.Whenyou'reontheVersaClimber,it'suniquebecauseyoucangetahigherheartratethanyouwouldrunningorcyclingbecauseyou'reusinglegsandarmsandyou'repumpingbloodupanddown.Theheart'sjustmaxedout.
Dave: You'renotgettingthegravityshockwhichalsohastobecompensatedfor,right?
Mark: Correct,correct.Iusedtotrain,Iusedtoraceatridiculouslyhighheartrates.Formetotrainat118,it'swhoa!That'ssolowthatwhenIstarteddoingit,ifIweretousethatasalimitedandsay,"I'mgoingtolimitmyselfto118,"Imighthavebeenrunning13minutemiles.Icouldrun5twentiesbutIwasburningmostlysugarandIcoulddothatat170beatsaminuteor180beatsaminutebutformetohold118andusethatasamaxandusethelimitingfactor,theamountofoxygenIcouldputthroughmybody,thatalmostdictatedhowmuchfatIcouldburn.IfIwasn'tburningmuchfat,thenIcouldn'tusetheoxygenIwasputtingthroughmybodyefficientlyandasaaresult,IwaslimitedinhowfastIcouldgo.
Whenwebuildefficiency,weusethatheartratewhichisbasicallythehighestamountofoxygenyoucanputthroughyourbodydoingworkwithoutgoingintosomeanaerobiczoneorsomelacticacidbuildup.
Wefindovertimethatpeoplewhoarerunning13minutemilesarethenrunning12s.Aslongasyouholdsteady,youdothisforacoupleofweeks,thenyou'redoing11s,thenyou'redoing10s.Then930s,then9s.Ultimately,peoplearedoing7minute,30secondmilesat118beatsaminute.
Whentheygoaddinthelayersoftrainingthatincludeweightworkinthegymandintervalsessionslikethat,thefactthattheycanrun730sandbegetting95%oftheirenergyfromfat,whichweknowtobetruebasedontheheartratelimit,whentheystarttoraisetheirheartrateandtheyknowtheycanraceat160or170beatsaminute,it'slinear.Asthey'reincreasingtheirspeed,they'restillderivingagreaterpercentageoftheircaloriesbecauseit'sallaboutthecaloriesastheseguyssay,they'rederivingagreateramountofcaloriesfromfatandrelyinglessonstoredglycogen.
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Whatthatmeansisthattheguyoneithersideofthemthatthey'reracingagainst,they'reburningmostlyglycogenatthosehighheartratesandatthosespeeds.
IfI'vetrainedthiswayandI'mgoodatburningfat,I'mnotonlysparingmuscleglycogenwhichisultimatelyalimiterofhowfastIcango,I'mevensparingthepanicglycogensomybrainisfunctioningwellbutitalmostdoesn'tmatterbecauseI'msogoodatburningfatthatI'mproducingketonesandmybrainisburningketones.
Awholedifferenthackthatwetalkaboutwhichisthecentralgovernortheoryofthebrain.ThatwaspromotedbyDr.TimNoakesyearsagowhenhesaid,"Youknow,wedidallthisworkonmuscleglycogenandwedeterminedthatthereasonyouhitthewall,thereasonyoubonkisbecauseyou'reoutofmuscleglycogen.Infact,eventhosepeoplewhohavetowithdrawfromaracestillhave150gramsofglycogenintheirmuscles.Itmustbesomethingelse.Hedeterminedthatitwasthebrain.Thebrainwassaying,"Wegottoshutdownbecausewe'rerunningonfumesandifwedon'tshutdown,there'llbedamagedone.We'llburntheengineout."Itwasthebrainthatwastellingthebodytoshutdownbasedonlowglucose.
Ifyoucanfuelthebrainwithketonesinaraceandthebrain'sgoing,"Hey,we'regreat.Weknowhowtoburnfat.We'renotburningthatmuchglycogen.Wedon'tneedthatmuchglucoseforthebrain,ifany,solet'sjustkeepgoing.Thispaceisfine."We'reseeingalotofathleteat,again,inthe100milerunningracecommunityaresettingworldrecordsbasedon…ForZachBittertorun7minutemilesandderive98%ofhiscaloriesfromfatprovenwearingananexchangesetupinthelab,thisisstuffthatwethoughtwaspuresciencefiction30yearsago.
Dave: Wow!Therearemorethanafewenduranceathleteswho'vehavecontactedmewholiterallypourBrainOctaneintowhatevertheirsportsbeverageis."IjustwanttohavesomeketoneswhenI'minarace,"andexogenousonesthebestastheycangetthem,evenifthey'realreadynutritionalketosis,theoneswhoareburningsugarandketones.
Whatdoyouthink?Forsomeonerunningalong-distancerace,isthereatimewhen,youknowwhat?Haveastingergel.Havesomecarbs,havesomewhitericeorwhateverelseordoyousay,"Stayinketosistheentiretimeandjustneverhavecarbs,"oristhereendoftheracebursts?What'syourperspectiveonthat?
Mark: We'restilllearning.We'restilllearningalotaboutthis.Oneofthethingswe'relearningisyoudon'tgetoutofketosisbytakinginsomeexogenouscarbsinarace.Thereissomeformsofcarbohydrate.UCANmakesaSuperStarchwhichishighmolecularweightstarchthatbasicallydripsintothebloodstreamataverypredictablerate.Youcantakein30gramsanhourwhichiscontributingtothatglucoserequirementasitmayhaveincreasedovertimeifyourampedupyoureffortandnotshutoffketosisandnotshutoffanyoftheothermetabolicprocesses.
Ithinkwhat'sreallycriticalistheunderstandingthatthemoretimeyouspendtrainingasalowcarbathleteandthatincludesnotjusteatinglowcarbinthedietbutdoingtheactualtraining,spendingthetimeatthelowlevelsofheartrateandthenbuildinginthedifferentfacetsofmaximumsustainedpowerandsoforth.Themoreyearsyouspenddoingthis,themorethatmetabolicmachineryiscastinstone.It'sthere.Youdon'tloseyourabilitytoburnfatbecause
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youtakeinagelpack.Youdon'tloseyourabilitytoproduceketonesbecauseyoutookinsomeformofalowGIcarbohydratesource.
Itmaybethatwhatwe'rearrivingatisacombinationbecausethisisreallyaboutwhatIcallfuelpartitioning.It'sabout,I'vegotanamountofoutputthatIneedtocreate.Let'ssayI'mgoingtotrytoshootforaworldrecordandit'sgoingtobea2hourmarathon.IknowthatIcanonlyholdabout1,600caloriesworthoffuelinmyglycogentankbecausethat'sabout400gramsofglycogen.I'vegotabout100gramsinmycapatictankinmylivertankthatIcanallocateforbrainfunctioning.Imightnotneedthatbuttherestofthisisgoingtohavetocomefromfat.EvenifI'mrunning4:42amile,ifIcanstillget60%ofmycaloriesfromfatbecauseofthewayItrainedandthebalancecomesfromcarbohydrates.Then,ifIdorunout,Icanstillsupplementwith…Again,that'swheretheexogenouscarbohydratecomesin.ItmaybeacombinationofMCToilandsomeexogenouscarbohydratelateron.
Ithinkthat'stheexcitingpartabouthowtogettothenextlevelofactualhumanperformanceisthisfiguringoutwhatthesecretformulais,howmuchofthis,howmuchofthat.It'sgoingtobereallycool.
Dave: Itprobablyvariesonaper-personbasisbasedonyourgeneticsby,probablythere'sa20%wiggleroomforeachofthosenumbers,right?
Mark: Absolutely.Absolutely,yeah.
Dave: Whatdoyouthinkaboutcollagen?Isellcollagen.I'mnottryingtopromotethatbuttheycallthatanimalstarch.IthinkImadeamistake.IdidanextremelyhighfatreplicatingtheEskimodietthingasIwasexperimentingforTheBulletproofDietbeforeIwrotethebook.For3months,Iateoneservingofgreenvegetablesadayandtherestofitwasfatandgrass-fedstuffthatcouldberightoutofPrimalBlueprint.Nootherdairyproteinoranyofthatkindofstuff.
Igotleakygut,developedabunchoffoodallergies.Igotnotears,nomucusinmysinuses,nomucuslininginmygutwhichiswhyIlikelygotleakygut.Mysleepqualitywentaway.Itwasnotagoodexperiment.IwonderifitwasbecauseIwasn'tusingcollagenatthetime,Iwasn’tgettingthat"animalstarch"thatEskimoswouldgetfromeatingconnectivetissueandboiledsealbonesandwhateverelsebutforpeopleinextremeketosisdoingenduranceathleticswhichisaburdenonthecollagen,dotheyneedthatorshouldtheyjusttakeexogenouscarbohydratestogetthepolysaccharidestheyneedforcoveringcellsofyourimmunesystem?
Mark: It'sbasicallyaquestionofdoyougetitfrombonesorbonebrothorwhateverbutifyoujusteatredmeat,ifyoujusteatthecleanprotein,theleanprotein,thatwholeconceptthatwasoriginallypromotedbytheearlypaleos.Don'teatsaturatedfat.Justeatclean,leanprotein.Thenyoubasically,rabidstarvation.Yougetimbalanceofcertainaminoacids.Leakygutisoneofthesideeffectsofthat.Weknowthatcollagenhasatremendouseffectonguthealthforsure.
IstarteddoingcollagenbecauseIhaveandIfoundoutlaterwhenIhadmyDNAtestedbyDNAFitthatmysofttissueispronetoinjurywhichitalwayshasbeen.Istillplayultimateoncea
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weekandIplay2hoursofreallyrigorous,hardsprinting,ultimateFrisbee.MyAchillesstartedhurting.I'mconsciousenoughatmyagethatIdon'twanttogetinjuredsoI'llbackoff.Byover-supplementingwiththecollagen,theAchillestendinitiswentaway.Itwasactuallytendinitiswhichisastepbeyondtendinitis.Itake,inadditiontoourbars,Itakeatype1,type2collagenblendalmostonadailybasisbecauseI'mjustsuchahugefanofit.Idon'thaveaccesstobonebrothonaregularbasis.
Dave: Iactuallytravelwith10gallonsteelpotfullofbones,theTSAletsmebringitthrough.It'sjustnotgoingtowork,right?
Mark: Yeah,exactly.
Dave: ForyourAchilles,haveyouevertriedstemcells?
Mark: No.I'venottriedstemcells.I'mveryexcitedaboutthatresearch.Iknowalotofpeoplethatkneeissues.IknowsomebodygoingthroughanMCLissuerightnowthat'sgoingtotrystemcells.I'vehadfriendswithshoulderissuestryitwithvaryingdegreesofsuccess.Ithinkthatthejury'soutonpluripotentcellsandthisconceptthatyoucansomehowinjectitintoakneeandgetakneeandnotaheart.It'salittletooearlyformetotrystufflikethat.
Dave: IfyourAchillesgetsworse,mywifeandIjustwentinanddidadipose-derivedandbonemarrow-derivedstemcells.Prettymucheverywherewecouldthinkofthateverhadaninjury.Likeyou,shehassofttissueinjurydispositions.ShehaddamagetoherAchillestendonfrommanyyearsago.Italwayshurtswhenshehikesandstuff.Shehadtheinjectiondone.Itliterally,amonthlater,it'sgone.Samething.Shehadafrozennecksinceshewas10yearsold.Shecouldn'tturnherneckveryfar.Oneofhershoulderswasfrozenfromfalling30feetoutofatreeasachild.Literally,2daysaftertheinjection,shehadmorerangeofmotionthanshe'shadasanadult.Iwasblownawaybutthesewereourownlivingstemcells,notfromsomeothersource,notfrom….
Mark: Sure.I'mfamiliarwithsomethetechnologytoharvestthem.Iwouldbemuchmoreinclinedtodothemarrowderivedfromthefatcellderivedbutstill.Yeah.Iguessthepointis,IgotthereliefIsought.
Dave: Justfromeatingit.
Mark: Justfromeatingcollagenso…
Dave: Thereyougo.
Mark: Yeah.
Dave: Let'stalksomemoreaboutworkingoutbecausewe'veallbeentaught,atleastifyou'reasoldasIamorasoldasyouarethatafteryou'veexercised,you'vegottoloaduponcarbohydratessoyoucanreplenishglycogenbecauseyoudon'thaveglycogen,you'llbeweak.
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TherewasaguynamedRobFaigininthemid90s,he'soneofthefirstnaturalbodybuilders,atleastfirstthatIknewabout,ofmygeneration.Theremighthavebeenotherones.Hewrotealotaboutwhathappenedifyouateproteinafteryouworkedoutbecauseyou'dgetasuppressionofcortisolandanincreaseingrowthhormoneandtestosterone.Hepositionedasateetertotter.Thatreallyinformedalotofmyearlyworkouttheoriesbutwhatdoyouthinkyoushouldhaveafteryouworkout?
Mark: Yeah.MystrategyisIdon'teat.Iworkoutfast.Idon'teatfor2hoursafterIworkoutprimarilybecauseI'mnothungry,primarilybecauseI'vegottensogoodatburningfatthatIwakeupinthemorning,Idon'tfeelhungry.I'mnotcompelledtoeat.Iadvisemyaudience,Ifyoudon'tfeellikeeating,ifyou'renothungry,whyeat?
Idon'tknowifyousawapapercirculatingafewdaysagoaboutover-nutritionandstudiesovernutritionwhichisbasicallyevenifyoucanputcaloriesthroughandnotgainweight,eatingmorethanyoushouldisprobablynotagoodidea.
Dave: Yes.Iwouldsupportthat.Idid4,500caloriesaday,between4,000,4,500formorethanayear.Ilostormaintainedweight.Ididnotgainweight.Idon'tthinkitwasnecessarilyhealthybutitwasjustastoundingthatthecaloriesin,caloriesoutjustsimplydidn'twork.Idon'tthinkitwasagoodthingtodobutIdidit.
Mark: Idon'tthinkit'sagoodthingtodoeitherbutasanexperiment.
Firstofall,backtothepost-workoutmeal.There's2schoolsofthoughtandtheoldschoolofthoughtwasrefillglycogen,yougotthis45minutewindowinwhichyourbody'spreparedtoreallyrampupglycogenre-synthesisbutifyoulookatyourstrategy,it's,"Okay,whydoIevencareaboutrebuildingglycogen,really?"OnlyifI'mgoingtogodothistomorrowamIreallyconcernedaboutrebuildingglycogentoday.
Onceagain,youtakealookatthetraditional100mileaweekmarathonrunnerwhichIwas.You'rerunninganaverageof15to20milesaday,everydaywithoutadayoffunlessyougetinjuredorgetsick.Youhadtothinkintermsofrefillingglycogen.Thatmadesense.Thatalsokeptyouskinnybecausetheconverseofthatisifyoudoahardworkoutandparticularlyifyoudoalagdayorsomeworkoutthatusesmajormusclegroupsanddoesittomaxeffort,youdogetthatpulseofgrowthhormoneandtestosteronethatiswhatyou'reseekingifyou'retryingtoputonmuscleandtakingcarbohydrateinbluntsthatpulse.Itbluntsthatpulseoftestosteroneandgrowthhormone.
Asa62,soontobe63,yearoldguy,IwantallmusclemassthatIcangetandsoIwanttotakeadvantageofthatopportunity.Idon'tneedtoreplenishglycogenbecauseI'mnotgoingtogohardtomorrow.Infact,I'mnotgoingtogohardfor4moredays.MyglycogenstoreswillrefillsothatwhenIgettoahardglycolyticworkoutoraweightworkout4daysdowntheroad,myglycogenstoreswillbeuptowheretheyneedtobebuttheoldpost-workoutreefedwasbasedon,"BecauseI'mgoingtodoitagaintomorrow."
Dave: Itwasbasedonsomeflawedassumptionsthatalsodrovethebehaviorthatthendrove…It'sa
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chickenandeggthingwithbadoutcome.
Mark: Exactly.
Dave: Speakingoftestosterone,okay.You're63.
Mark: Yup.
Dave: Youprobablymeasureyourtestosteronelevels,Iwouldimagine.
Mark: Ido.
Dave: Allbiohackersdo.Atwhatpointareyougoingtotakeexogenoustestosteroneorareyounevergoingtodoit?
Mark: No,no,no.Istartedabout2yearsago.
Dave: Youdid?Okay,cool.Kudostoyou.Thatissuchavalidanti-agingstrategy.ActuallyIappreciatethatyoutalkaboutthat.Iwasontestosteroneforabout8yearsbecauseIwasn'tmakingmyown.MymotherhadmoretestosteronethanIdidwhenIwas26.Itabsolutelyhelpedmetoturnmybiologybackon.I'mnotontestosteronerightnowbecausemylevelsarewhereIwantedthemtobe,whenIfinallydialedinallthestuffbutI'llbedamnedifIwon'tgoontestosteroneifmylevelsdipandIcan'tfixwithmydiet.It'showit'ssupposedtobe.
Mark: AsIturn60andIstartedtorealizethatIwanttoliveanawesomelifeaslongasIcan.OneofmybestfriendswhoIusedtodotriathlonswith30yearsagoisapreeminentanti-agingdoc.Irespectwhathesaid.Hesaid,"Look.Whydon'tyou…Let'sjusttrythisout,seehowyoulikeit.It's100milligramsinthebuttonceaweek.It'snotabigdeal."
For2andahalfyears,that'swhatI'vebeendoing.It'sfine.It'spartofmyregimennow.Igottotellyou,Idon'tnecessarilynoticeanythingasaresultofitbutI'mlookingatthosesortsofadvantagesgoingforward.There'snoreasonnotto.Havingdonetheresearchandthescience,Idon'tthinkthere'sanyreasonnotto.Mywife'sbeendoingbio-identicalestrogen…
Dave: Progesterone,yeah.
Mark: Progesterone,testosteronemanipulationsfor10years.
Dave: Givingwomentestosteronemightbemoreimportantthangivingmentestosterone.
Mark: Yeah.
Dave: Whattherightlevelsdoforwomen,it'sreallyimportant.Ithinkit'sleftoverfromdopingscandalswithbodybuildersinthe70susingmethylatedtestosteronecompoundsthataren'tnatural.There'ssomesortofweirdpuritanicalthingagainstit.I'mnotjokingabout.I'mplanningtoliveto180yearsold.Ithinkit'sachievablegiventhechangeinanti-aging…
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Mark: AccordingtoKurzweil,ifyoucanmakeitto2040or2045,you'regood.
Dave: Exactly,right?
Mark: Yeah.
Dave: Itdepends,ifRay'srightornot,Idon'tknowbutit'ssomethinglikethat.Ithinkit'sdoable.I
thinkhemightevenhavehisnumberswrong.Atleastifyou'refortunateenoughandifyoucouldpreventenoughdamageearlyenoughage,maybeit'stherebutthatmeansthatyouwillbeonexogenoushormonesatsomepointifyou'rebody'snotmakingthemoryou'lldie.
Mark: Oryou'llbedownloadingyourconsciousnessintoamachine.
Dave: That'safairpoint.Ithinkit'salreadyhalfwayintomyiPhone.Ifitjusthadmoreram,right?
Mark: Yeah.Yeah.
Dave: Let'stalksomemoreaboutbrainssincewetalkedaboutdownloadingthem.Onethingthatketonescandoisextendthecareerofanathlete.We'retalkingaboutextendinglife.Whatdoketonesdoforextendingyourathletelife?Inotherwords,beingabletocompeteintoyourfiftiesorsomethingwithketones?
Mark: Wedon'tknowyetbecausewehaven'thadanyrealproof,anylong-termstudiesofathleteswhowereattheelitelevelwhowereketogenicbyplanthathadundergoneextensivetrainingandmaintainedahighlevelofcompetitiveoutput.Wedon'tknowyet.
Isuspectthatwhatwe'llseeisthatthere'llbeagreaterlongevitysimplybecausethiswholeenergypathwaythatwe'retalkingaboutwithfatsandketonesislessreactiveoxygenspeciesgeneratingthantheglycolytic,glycogencarbohydrate/glucosepathwaysandthatathleteshavedependedonforthelast30or40years.
Whenyouseeathletewhoare35yearsoldandtheylooklikethey're55yearsold,partofit'sbecausetheamountoftimethey'vebeenoutinthesunbutpartofit'sjustbecauseoftheamountofoxidativedamagethatthey'vedone,thatiscrosslinking,it'sacrylamide,it's…What'sthat…
Dave: Advancedglycationendproducts.
Mark: AGEs.MyARDreactionwhenIwaslookingatit.
Dave: Thereyougo.
Mark: Allsortsofmanifestationsofaninefficientenergyproductionsystemthatironicallyisonlyavailablebecausewehaveanunlimitedsupplyofcarbohydrate.Inotherwords,ifwehadn'tcreated…Again,wegetbacktoJaredDiamondandCordainandagricultureanditwasthebest
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oftimes,itwastheworstoftimes,it'sthegreatestmistakehumanityevermadebuttherelianceoncarbohydrateallowedpeopletotrainhardeverysingledaybecausetheythoughttheyhadtotrainhardandtheyhadtorefillglycogen.
AsaresultI'moneofthese…Ididdamagetomyself.I'mpayingthepricetodayforthedamagethatIdid30yearsago.Ithinkthatwe'llseethatketogenicathletesandpeoplewhoaredoingcyclicketo-I'mnottalkingaboutstayinginketosisyourwholelife.I'mjusttalkingaboutusingcyclicketogenesistobuildabettermetabolicmachinerytoputthroughfatsandketonesandcarbohydratesandmaximizetheenergyoutputinarace.That'swhereit'sheaded.
Dave: Youaddedakeywordthere,cyclicalketosis.That'sexactlywhatIrecommendinTheBulletproofDietbecausewhenIdidfullketosisforthatperiodoftime,IfeltnegativeeffectsbutifIgooutofitonedayaweek,"Okay,I'mgoingtoeatalotofricetoday."ItfeelslikeIjusthavemorepowerthroughouttheweekorifIdohave50or100gramsofcarbs,Istillmaintainthatfatburningabilitythatitseemstobedifferentthanthesub-20gramsofcarbsadaycrowd.IrespecttheguysthatdothatbutIdon'tfeelgoodifIdothat.
Mark: IrespecttheguysthatdothatbutIliketoeatawidevarietyoffoods.Again,backnotwantingtohurt.Idon'twanttosuffer.For2yearsnow,thetaglineforPrimalBlueprinthasbeenliveawesome.HowdoweextractthegreatestamountofpleasureoutofeverymomentpossiblewhichincludeseveryfrickingbiteoffoodthatIeat,Iwantittotastegood.IfI'mlimitingmyselftofoodsthatarewithinafairlynarrowlydefinedketogenicdietandI'mexcludingcopiousamountsofgreenvegetablesthathavebeengrilledorsautéedorsteamedwithbutter,whatever.Evenacertainamountofstarchyinputs,evenifit'satarochipwithwhichtoscoopsomeguacamole,Idon'twanttolimitmyselftothatstuff.
Dave: Agreed.Ihadaninterest-I'mtryingtorememberwhichaudiencethisis.ThisisBrendonBurchard'sHighPerformanceAcademy.Thisisabout1,500peopleintheroom.They'reallhigh-performingpeopleandsaid,"Pleaseraiseyourhand,howmanyofyouknowaboutketosis?Howmanyofyouhavebeeninketosis?"I'dsay90%oftheroomraisestheirhand.Isaid,"Allright.Howmanyofyouareinketonesnow?"Fivepeople.It'slike,okay,pointmade.Theyallfeltthebenefitsbutitwastoohardtodoitandtotravelanddoalltheotherthingsortheyjustdidn'tenjoyitbecausetheywantedtheirwineortheywantedtheirwhateverelseitwas.
Mark: Toddseemstobeabletostayinketonesandhavehiswine.
Dave: Yeah.Howdoeshepullthatoff?TheToddwe'retalkingaboutistheguyfromDryFarmWines.Mark,youandIarebothfansoftheguy.
Mark: No.So,Ithinkketosisisagreattoolandit'sagreattrainingstrategybutIwouldsuggest…Itellathlete,"Spend2weeksinandthenhangout."Youcanstillbelow-carb.Tobeinketosis,youmighthavetobebelow50gramsduringthetimethatyou'reinketosisbutyoucanmoveupto120gramsor130gramsadayofcarbsandinthatspace,beconsumingplentyofvegetablesandenoughfiberandenoughothergreat-tastingfoodstonotfeellikeyou'resacrificinganythingandalsonotfeelcompelledtocarbo-loadjustbecauseyou'reoutofketosis.There'sanicelittlespaceyoucanfindyourselfinwhereyou'reat100to150gramsadayandstillbeutilizingallthe
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metabolicmachinerythatyoubuiltwhenyouwereinketosis.
Dave: Yeah.Beinginketosissometimesisreallyimportant.Itdepends,foranenduranceathlete,onesideofthings.Look,I'mrunningabusiness.Iwantmybraintoworkreallywell.It'sadifferentfrequencyofketosisbutifwe'reresettinghungerlevels,resettingyourbodyweightsetpoint,ketosishassomanyjustusefulthings.
What'sthenumber?Whenyoustickyourfingerandlookatthebloodketonelevels,whatarethemeaningfulnumbersforyou?Igetdifferentanswerstothisquestionfromdifferentpeople.
Mark: Ithink2isameaningfulnumber.I'mnotlookingfor4sand5s.
Dave: Ilove2.Twoisdefinitelyyou'reinnutritionalketosis.Ithinkifyouhavecancerorsomething,youmightwanttogetalothigherthanthatbutIdon'tthinkit'snecessary.Forme,themagicnumberthatsetsmybrainfreeis.5whichissubnutritionalketosiswhichstartsat.8but.5iswhereyouresetyourghrelinandCCKlevels.Ghrelin'sthehungerhormone.CCKisthesatietyhormone.Whenyouresetbothofthose,allofasudden,you're,"Oh.Now,Idon'tcareaboutfoodsoI'mgoingtomakehealthierandmoreintelligentfoodchoicesbecauseI'mnotcraving-drivenanymore."Forme,freedomfromcravingsisoneofthosethingsthatreducessufferingthemostintheleastamountofeffort.
Mark: Again,backtothewholeconceptherewhichistoenjoyasmuchoflifeaspossible.OneofthosethingsthatIfindreallycompellingabouttheworkthatwedoisit'sthe…it'sabadtermbuttheanorecticeffectofalow-carbdiet,ofacyclicalketogenicdiet.Itmodulatesyourhungertothepointthatyoudon'tfeeldrivenbyfood,thatyoudon'tfeellike,"Oh,mygod.Thiswasjustawonderfullunch.What'sfordinner?"It'ssofreeingtosomanypeopletobeabletosay,goinarestaurantordersomethingorhavesomethingfixedathome,take7bitesandgo,"Youknowwhat?IthinkI'mdone.IthinkI'vehadenough.IthinkIdon'tneedtoeatanymoreandifIdoneedtoeatanymore,Iknowexactlywheretogetsome."
I'vebeentalkingalotaboutthisrecentlybutI'vehadformostofmylife,Iwasguidedbythiscriteriawhichwas,what'sthemostamountoffoodIcancramdownmypieholeandnotgainweight?What'sthemostamountoffoodIcaneatandnotthrowup?What'sthemostamountoffoodIcaneatandnotbeuncomfortable?Ithinkalotofpeoplelivetheirlivesthatway.Then,yougotoCheesecakeFactoryandyougetwhatevertheservingis,it's1,600caloriesorwhateverandyoufeelcompelledtofinishtheplate.Afewyearsago,Istartedthinking,"Well,alotoftheWesternworld,thedevelopedworldlivesaccordingtothatmantra."IrunsoIcaneat.Whydoyourunmarathons?IrunbecauseIlovetoeat.Seriously,dude?That'swhyyouhurtyourself?
Dave: That'ssick!
Mark: That'sjustsick.Ilovetoeat,toobutIchosenottorunmarathons.Theconverseofthisisreallytoaskyourself,"What'stheleastamountoffoodIcaneatandmaintainmusclemassandmaintainenergyandmaintaingreatcognitionandnotgetsickandmostimportantly,notbehungry?"Youfindthatit'snotalotoffood.It'sreallythatIprobablyeat30%fewercaloriesnow
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thanIdideven5or7yearsagowhenIcouldmaintainmyweighteatingthat.Iwouldn'tgainweightbutIjustfindIdon'tneedasmanycaloriestomaintainbecauseIreallydialinmyappetite.IreallyunderstandwhenI'mhungry,whenI'mnotandIguessthebadnewsisnow,IfeelguiltyifIevenslightovereat,Igo,"No.Jeez.Iknewbetterthanthat,"andslightlyovereatingformeisprobablyhalftheportionIwouldhaveeaten10yearsago.
Dave: It'sfunnyyoumentiontheanorecticeffectofketosisbecausesuddenlyyou'renotdrivenbythesecravings.About3yearsago,therewasagroupinSwedensayingthatBulletproofCoffeecausesanorexia.Swedenisoneofthefirstcountriestobroadlyembraceahigh-fatdiet,ahighsaturated-fatdiet,even.Ijustthrewmyhandsup."Well,Iguessiflivingwithouthungerequalsanorexia,yup."I'llownthatbutwhatwasgoingonwaspeoplewerecomplainingthat,"Thosepeopledon'thaveanyhungerpainsthereforethey'rebadpeople."It'slike,"Comeon,guys.It'scalledmildketosis."
Mark: No.It'scalledbeingincontrolofyourappetite.It'sabigdifferencebetweenrefusingtoeatbecauseyou'retryingtoshowyourparentssomething,thatyou'vegotmorecontrolthantheydoversusjustbeingsoincontrolofyourappetite,yougo,"Youknowwhat?I'mnothungry.Iknowwhathungerlookslike.I'mnothungrynow.Idon'tneedtoeatnow.Icouldbecausemyfriendsareeatingorwhatever.We'reallgoingouttolunch."Ithinkthat'sthesinglemostempoweringconceptwithinthewholepaleoprimalBulletproofworld.
Dave: WhenIwasreallyfat,Ididnotknowthedifferencebetweenhungerandacraving.Ithoughtatmycore,thosewerethesamething.Whenyouhavetoeat,you'regoingtodie.Youfeellikeyou'regoingtodieifyoudon'teatnowandsuddenly,tobeatthispointwhere,"Youknow,IcouldeatbutifIdon'teatforanother4hours,I'mnotgoingtolosemyabilitytothink.I'mnotgoingtohavetolaydown.I'mnotgoingtobiteanyone'sheadoff."It'sjustgoingtobelikeoneofthosethingslikemaybeIshouldscratchthatitch.
Forme,thatwas,justasaformerobeseperson,thatwassodamnedliberatingandtofeelwhatitdidformybrain.Idon'tcarehowmybodylooksaslongasIcanhavethatfeelingbecauseit'ssomuchbetterthanthewayIusedtofeel.
Mark: Ironically,whenyouhavethatfeeling,thenyourbodystartstolookbetter.
Dave: It'safreebonus.It'sprettycool.Youmentionedyou're63or62,turning63?
Mark: Yeah,yeah,yeah.
Dave: Whatelseareyoudoingforanti-aging?For10years,I'verunananti-aginggroup.Thisisoneofmypassions.Youdosomuchresearch.Ihavesomuchrespectforyou.You'vegottobedoingsomethingmorethanjustketosisandtestosteroneforaging.Whatelseisonthemenuforyou?
Mark: Ithinklikea17yearold.Iliterallysurroundmyselfwithyoungpeopleandthat…
Dave: Ithelps.
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Mark: Ithinksinglemostimportantaspecttoallthis.I'munapologeticaboutgetting8andahalfto9hoursofsleepanight.I'mverygoodaboutthat.I'mreligiousaboutthat.Ithinksleepiscriticalforpartofananti-agingstrategy.I'mgettingsome,notasmuchasIusedtobutIstillget,Ispentsometimeinthesun.I'mdoingthelowleveltrainingthatI'venowamcoachingpeopletodo.Now,I'mdoingitmyselfanddoinga2hourstanduppaddletheotherday.
Dave: Nice.
Mark: It'sout.It'smytimewithnature.It'sverymeditative.Iusuallygooutalone.Theotherday,Iwentoutandsawawhale.Itwasprobablyahalfmileawaybutitwasjustawesometoseethatthinkbreaching.Ihike.Again,Ihikealone.That'sreallymymeditationiswhenIworkoutintheselongerstretches.Playultimate,again,with20somethingsand30somethingsandfeellikeIcankeepupwiththem.Really,mostofitisattitude,Ithink,forme.
Dave: Youmentionedearlieryourheartratevariabilityasameasureofover-trainingandI'vebeenadvisortotheHeartMathInstituteandacertifiedcoach.Iuseitasawaytomeditatemorequickly.Doyouthatsortofworkwithheartratevariabilityorareyoumorearoundbasicallymeasuringthehealthofyourautonomicnervoussystemwithitsoyoucanwatchthetraining?
Mark: Yeah.Here'sthedealwithmeandHRV.Iknowalotaboutit,wrotealotaboutit.Itdoesn'tworkforme.I'lltellyouwhy.
Dave: Cool!
Mark: IspentsomuchofmylifetrainingatahighheartratethatIdamagedmyheart.IhavePVCs.Ihaveprematureventricularcontractions.Thisreallystartedtomanifestitselfacoupleofyearsagoinjustskippedbeatsbutitwasn'tjustskipbeats.Itwaseveryotherbeatoreverythirdbeatwasskippedforanhouratatime.IwouldgetthemostoutrageouslygoodHRVnumbers.
Dave: You'regettingfalsenumbers.Okay.
Mark: Iwasgettingfalsenumbers.Icalledourfriend,Iforgethername.
Dave: RolandMcCready
Mark: No.Thegal.Thegal.
Dave: Debbie,yeah.
Mark: Yeah.Ijustsaid,"Iwanttolookintothis."Shesaid,"Youknow,well,ifyougotPVCs,thentheHRVprograms,wecan'tworkwithit.Wecan'trecognizewhat'sgoingon."
Dave: Okay.Takesthatoffthetable.
Mark: It'snotlifethreatening.It'sjustannoying.Ihaveaskippedbeatthatwhenitskips,theventricleoverfills.Then,sothecatchupbeatisveryforcefulbeatthat'salittleuncomfortable.
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Dave: Thatchangesthevariabilitydramaticallyof…
Mark: Dramatic,yeah,yeah.
Dave: Weallhaveourissueslikethat.Thisisgoingbackmaybe3yearsorso.Ispentacoupledaysat
10,000feetelevation,hadafewdrinks.ThiswasattheSummitSeries.SomeoneoutsideonPowderMountain.Iflewstraightfromthereonverylittlesleep,stayuplatepartyingtoSanFrancisco.IdidashootforavideoseriesIwasdoing.IhelpplankposeontheBulletproofVibe.ThisisthewholebodyvibrationplatformImanufacture.Plankposeishardenoughtodofor5minutesandwhenyou'revibrating30timesasecond,itisahellofaworkout.
They'retryingtogetthelightingandthecameraanglesright.I'mlike,"Guys,you'retorturingmehere."IheldthisposeandI'mjustdrippingwithsweat.Then,IflewhometoCanadaandrefilledmythyroidprescription.I'vebeenondecreasingamountsofthyroidbutIdidhaveHashimoto'sthyroiditis.I'mprobablydown70%ofmythyroidmedsbutI'mstillonthem.Myprescriptionwascompoundedanditwasoverfilled.
HereIam,Iendupgettinganinflamedsternumwhichcauseshorriblechestpainsifyou'veeverhadthatandI'mgettingskippedheartbeatswhichwasmademethinkaboutthisfromthethyroidmedication.Mywife'sanERdoctor.She'slike,"Ithinkyou'regoingtothehospitaltogetanEKGnow."I'mlike,"Whatthehell?"Itturnsoutitwasoneofthoseconfluences.Youjustdon’tknowbutapparentlyskippedbeatsarewaymorecommonthanIwouldhavethought
Mark: Here'showcommontheyare.Inmygenerationofenduranceathlete,it'sepidemic.IttypicallymanifestsitselfasAFib,atrialfibrillation.Inmycase,whatitis,it'sathickeningoftheventriclewall.Whentheheartmusclethickens,itbasicallyformsalittlebitofscartissueandacoupleofcellsdie.Thosearecellsthatareinnervatingtheheartbeatortheymaybebeprematurelyinnervatingabeatbecauseofsomerestriction.
Thepointis,whenyouputthatamountof…Iraisedmyheartratetomaxlevels3daysaweekforagoodpartofmylife.That'swhyI'mwritingthisbookorwhyIwrotethisbookPrimalEnduranceistosay,"Don'tdothis.Donottrythisathome,kids.There'sawaytodothis."
Thegoodnewsis,it'snotlifethreatening.Icouldgogetanablationandtheyliterallygointhroughtheleg,theycouldburnacoupleofthecellsthatarecausingtheproblem.Theymapthem,theidentifythem,theyburnthem,goodasnew.Thatscaresme.I'mgoingtoholdoffonthatforawhilebutItakeacalciumchannelblockerforitnow.
Igotothegymliketoday,Irodeforanhourat118beatsaminutewith0negativeeffectatall.That'smynumber,118is180minusmyage,118.Iheldit.I'mmoreefficientatthat118thanI'veeverbeenatmylifesoI'meventrainingaccordingtomyplannowbutpayingverycloseattentiontomaxheartratestuff.
Dave: Oneeightyminusageholdsnomatteryourage?
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Mark: Yeah,soit'sreally…itwasdevelopedbyPhilMaffetonewho'soneofthepioneersinthiswholearea.
Dave: Imethim.
Mark: HewasMarkAllen'scoachwhenMarkwasthegreatesttriathleteintheworldandwonIronman7times.It'saprettycoolhistoryofhavingworkedwithtopathletesandproventhatthismethodworksandthentoarriveatthisnumber.Again,wesay,it's180minusyourageplusorminus4or5beatsbasedonsomelittleboxesthatyoucheckoff,likeI'malifetimeathlete.I'malreadyfittobeginwithorI'mwayoutofshapeandI'minhorrendousshape.Thenumbershiftseithersideofthatnumberbutit'saprettyreliablenumber.
Wecangotothelabandyoucantestitbecausewhatitis,isit'stryingtoarrive,again,asIsaid,it'sthehighestnumberatwhichyoucanputthemostamountofoxygenthroughandnotbegoingintoanykindoflacticacidbuildup.It'sthenumberatwhichyouareburningmostlyfatbecausewedeterminedthatasanRQ,orrespiratoryquotient,basedonoxygenthroughput.
Dave: Thisissuchafascinatingconversation.Ilovebeingabletojustgeekoutalittlebitbutnotgosodeepthatpeoplelisteninggetlost.Ireallyappreciateourconversation,Mark.I'mlookingforwardtogettingachancetohangoutatyournextmayonnaiselaunch.YoujustcameoutwithyournewmayonnaisewhichismadeoutofrealingredientswhichIappreciate.ImissedyourpartyforitbutIappreciateit.
Mark: No.Weactuallynowhavetheoriginalmayonnaisebeenout14monthsnowalready.We'dhadaChipotlelimemayothatweintroducedrecently.
Dave: Ah!Okay.
Mark: Yeahandsomesaladdressingalsobasedonavocadooil,thehealthiestofalltheoilssoveryexcitedabout…it'scalledPrimalKitchen.It'smostWholeFoods,youcangetitonThriveMarketforsure.Yeah.
Dave: Beautiful.Wehaveonemorequestiononourinterview.Ifsomeonecametoyoutomorrowandsaid,"Mark,IwanttokickassateverythingIdo,notjustworkingout,whatarethe3mostimportantthingsIneedtoknow?"Whatwouldyoutellthem?
Mark: Numberone,always,always,alwaysthebestinvestmentyoucouldevermakeisinyourself.Whetherthat'sinvestinginmoreeducation,investinginsomeskills,investinginabusinessthatyou'vejustcreated,that'sthesinglegreatestpieceofadviceIcouldgiveanyone.That'sreallywhat'sgoingtodeterminethedifference.
Number2,I'dsaybearinmindthatifitwaseasy,everyonewouldbedoingit.Sometimesitfeelslikeeveryone'sdoingitandthey'rebreathingdownyourthroatbutifwasreallyeasy,everyonewouldbedoingit.Juststayfocused.Thosepeoplewhosucceedinanythingaretheoneswhopersevere.Eveniftheystartoffslow,Ijustfind,likeinrealestate,Ihavefriendswhogaveupinrealestateafter2yearsbutifyouhangintherefor4or5years,thesamegroupof
Bulletproof Radio Podcast #314, Mark Sisson
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friendsaremakingmillionsofdollarsjustbecausetheyhunginthereandtheyweregoodatit.
ThirdthingandIjustgavesomebodythisadvicetheotherday,ifyouhaveabusinessidea,Ifyouwanttokickass,makesureit'sagoodidea.Don'tjustbepassionateforthesakeofbeingpassionatebutmakesureit'sactuallyagoodbusinessandthengetpassionateashellaboutit.
Dave: That'sverywellsaid,givenallmytimeinSiliconValley.Ilovethatone.Cool.
Mark,Idon'tknowifyouevenneedtogiveoutyourURLbecauseeverybodyknowsaboutitbutmarksdailyapple.com.Anyotherplacespeopleshouldgotofindyou?
Mark: Primalblueprint.comisthee-commercesitewhereallofourproductsaresold,yeah.ChecktothePrimalKitchenlineoffoodproducts.
Dave: Beautiful.Yousaidyou'reatWholeFoodsnow?
Mark: Yup.
Dave: Awesome.WejustgotinWholeFoodsaswell.Whenyou'reatWholeFoods,pickupsomePrimalKitchenitems.Whileyou'reatit,pickupsomeofthatBulletproofstuff.It'sgoingtobeanawesomeday.
Mark: Yes,itwill.
Dave: Ifyouenjoyedtoday'sepisode,youknowwhattodo.HeadonoverandpickupacopyofPrimalEndurancebecauseyouwilllearnsomethingfromthisbookevenifyou'renotanenduranceathlete.
I'llbereallyhonest.Idon'tcareaboutenduranceathletics.Personally,it'snotwhatIwanttodowithmylifebutlifeisanenduranceevent,atleastifyouwanttoliveto180itis.Thethingsyou'lllearnfromreadingthisbookapplywaybeyondrunningamarathonordoinga10Korrunning100miles,whateveryoumightwanttodo.Ithinkthatthere'ssomethingforeveryoneinthebook.IhavegreatrespectforMarkandMark'swork.YouwillbenefitfromreadingPrimalEndurance.PickituponAmazon,headonovertoMark'swebsiteandpickupacopyofit.Youwillbegladyoudid.
Haveanawesomeday.
Mark: Cool!
Dave: Great.