0: Coul'd you f i r s t d e s c r i b e the s t a t e s e c u r i t y f o r c e s ' i n v e s t i g a t i o n a g a i n s t you.,and t h e n s o r t o f g i v e t h e reasons why t h e s t a t e goes on w i t h the R e s i s t a n c e Conspiracy . t r i a l , c h a r g i n g you w i t h t h e bombing of t h e C a p i t o l i n 1984 7

: We b e l i e v e t h a t t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n o f t h e seven of us who a r e i n d i c t e d i n t h i s case r e a l l y grew o u t o f t h e FBIs i n v e s t i g a t i o n o f t h e armed c l a n d e s t i n e r e s i s t a n c e w i t h i n t h e b l a c k l i b e r a t i o n s t r u g g l e ana the P u e r t o R i c a n independence movement and t h e i r l i n k s w i t h r e v o l u t i o n a r y a n t i - i m p e r i a l i s t s h e r e i n t h e US. T h i s i n v e s t i g a t i o n i n t e n s i f i e d as p o l i t i c a l bombings w h i c h o c c u r e d f r o m 1982 t o 1985 were c l a i m e d by a v a r i e t y o f armed c l a n d e s t i n e o r g a n i z a t i o n s : t h e U n i t e d Freedom F r o n t , and o r g a n i z a t i o n s accused o f t h e armed a c t i o n s i n t h i s case - t h e R e v o l u t i o n a r y F i g h t i n g Croup, t ^ t Armed R E s i s t a n c e U n i t and t h e REd G u e r r i l k R e i s t a n c e . We a r e t r a c i n g the b e g i n n i n g o f t h i s i n v e s t i g a t i o n back t o an i n t e r n a t i o n a l law e n f o r c e m e n t c o n f e r e n c e about " The War a g a i n s t I n t e r n a t i o n a l T e r r o r i s m ' ' t h a t took p l a c e i n P u e r t o R i c o i n 1978Y4 The FRG was p a r t o f i t , I s r a e l and Uruguay were p a r t i c i p a t i n g and tne US was t n e i r . i t i a ^ r ^ At t n a t p o i n t we mark i n our a n a l y s i s t h e i n i t i a t i o n or the :. ns: : t i : " r.c:.er"H c o u n t e r i n s u r g e n c y s t r a t e g y a g a i n s t US r e v o l u t i o n a r y groups.

„ <K~c.Z7 , o u l d you d e s c r i b e so tne or tne t a c t i c s w i t n i n t h i s s t r a t e g y

: I t h i n k t h e r e aryl s e v e r a l a s p e c t s . One o f them i s t n e m i l i t a r y a s p e c t , one i s t h e

p s y c h o l o g i c a l a s p e c t w b o t h a g a i n s t r e v o l u t i o n a r i e s themselves and a g a i n s t t h e p o p u l a t i o n s .

And t h e r e o f c o u r s e / a r e p o l i t i c a l a s p e c t s i n t e r m s of propaganda. I w i l l g i v e examples of a ^ o f t h o s e , h i w t h e y are being used i n t h e US c o n t e x t d o m e s t i c a l l y l a t e r . But the c o n f e r e n c e m e a n t / t n a t t h e war a g a i n s t r e v o l u t i o n a r i e s i n s i d e t h e US - b o t h f r o m the

/ n a t i o n a l l i b e r a t i o n movements i n s i d e t h e US and t h e w h i t e a l l i e s - was b r o u g h t i n t o the i n t e r n a t i o n a l I war a g a i n s t t e r r o r i s m ' ' . So i t had a domestic component a t t h a t p o i n t and i t was p a r t op t h e o v e r a l l s t r a t e g y i n t h e Reagan era o f b u i l d i n g up t h e i n t e r n a t i o n a l "war a g a i n s t t e r r o r i s t s " as a way t o d e s t r o y r e v o l u t i o n a r y movements. One o f t h e a e v a O b m e n t s of t h i s c o n f e r e n c e was t h e f o r m a t i o n o f t h e J o i n t T e r r o r i s t Task Force (JTTF) o f t h e FBI m 1980. The UTTF was a c t u a l l y froomed i m m e d i a t e l y a f t e r W i l l i a m M o r a l e s , a P u e r t o R i c a n independence f i g h t e r , escaped from p r i s o n h o s p i t a l , and a f t e r A s s a i l Shakur, a l e a d e r o f t h e B l a c k L i b e r a t i o n Army ( BLA) escapee f r o m a maximum s e c u r i t y p r i s o n i n 1979. Seme o t h e r comrades o f t n e R e s i s t a n c e C o n s p i r a c y Case have been accused o f a s s i s t i n g i n b o t h o f t h e s e p r i s o n escapes. The JTTF a c t u a l l y r e p r e s e n t e d a m a j o r develop­ment i n p o l i c e s u r v e i l l a n c e and c o u n t e r i n s u r g e n c y i n so f a r as i t i s t h e u n i f i c a t i o n of p o l i c e f o r c e s f r o m e v e r y l e v e l under t n e l e a d e r s h i p o f the F B I . T h a t means t h a t they have many more r e s o u r c e s , t h e y have more money t o work w i t h , they have an i n c r e d i b l y s o p h i s t i c a t e computer system w h i c h i s n a t i o n a l i n i t s scope and they c e r t a i n l y have more p e o p l e and many more e x p e r t s i n terms of numbers o f a g e n t s t o work w i t h . So i t i s t h e JTTF t h a t

a c t u a l l y pursued the i n v e s t i g a t i o n o f chef 7 J f us arfd i s i n charge of the i n v e s t i g a t i o n o f t h e P u e r t o R i c a n independence movement and t h e Bl a c k r e v o l u t i o n a r y movement.We r e a l i z e d t h a t i n 1981 t h e r e was a major b r e a k t h r o u g h f o r t h e JTTF i n terms of t h e i r a b i l i t y t o f o l l o w up on an i n c r e d i b l e number o f l e a d s t h a t they g o t from a f a i l e d e x p r o p r i a t i o n o f an armored t r u c k i n U p s t a t e New York, known as t h e 3 r i n k s e x p r o p r i a t i o n . S e v e r a l b l a c k r e v o l u t i o n a r i e s were a r r e s t e d a t t h a t t i m e , s e v e r a l w h i t e a n t i - i m p e r i a l i s t s were a r r e s t e d w i t h them. I n t h e pro c e s s o f t h e JTTF's i n v e s t i g a t i o n one New A f r i k a n comrade - M t ^ y a r i Sh/^baka S u n d i a t a - was murdered i n c o l d b l o o d by t h e p o l i c e a f t e r a s h o o t - o u t . H is companion Sekou Odinga was t o r t u r e d and i t t o o k t h r e e months o f h o s p i t a l i z a t i o n b e f o r e he c o u l d even f u n c t i o n i n a normal manner. A n o t h e r man was t o r t u r e d u n t i l he t u r n e d s t a t e e v i d e n c e . There was a major Grand J u r y i n v e s t i g a t i o n i n which peoole were subpoenaed anc an a t t e m p t t c f o r c e them t o t e s t i f y they were i m p r i s o n e d . MAnv of them r e s i s t e d - A l a n BErkman, who i s one of t h e d e f e n d a n t s i n t h i s case - was one of the oeople subpoenaed on t h a t case who r e s i s t e d and r a t h e r went t c o r i s o n than t e s t i f i e d .

Q: J o c i d you d e s c r i b e some of tne methods i n r e l a t i o n to t h e JTTF's i n v e s t i g a t i o n o f you ?

L: : I n t h e pr o c e s s o f f o l l o w i n g up the l e a d s from the v a r i o u s a r r e s t s i n 1981 and i n 198« o f s e v e r a l P u e r t o R i c a n r e v o l u t i o n a r i e s , t n e JTTF b o t h got leads i n terms o f i d e n t i ­f i c a t i o n , m e t h o d o l o g y , and they were a b l e t o i n t i m i d a t e and f o r c e some people - v e r y few, b u t enough comrades - t o t u r n t r a i t o r and t e s t i f y and g i v e them i n f o r m a t i o n about t n e i n n e r w o r k i n g s o f t h e c l a n d e s t i n e o r g a n i z a t i o n s as w e l l as t h e i d e n t i t i e s o f many a c t i v i s t s i n t h e v a r i o u s movements. That t h e n gave them i n f o r m a t i o n about now oeople o p e r a t e d u n d e r ­g r o u n d . For example t h e JTTF t a r g e t t e d t n e comrades accused o f bombings c l a i m e d by t h e UNited Freedom F r o n t , who had c h i l d r e n w i t h them i n c l a n d e s t i n i t y , by g o i n g t o c h i l d c a r e c e n t e r s anc s c h o o l s and d i s s e m i n a t i n g wanted p e s t e r s o f t h e c h i l d r e n . A g a i n s t t h e 7 c f us, the JTTF d i d t h e same t h i n g w i t h h e a l t h f o o d s t o r e s , because they knew t h a t some of t h e r e v o l u t i o n a r i e s a t e h e a l t h y f o o d . They a t t e m p t e d t o g e t a wide network of p e o p l e i n a s e l f - c o n c i o u s way t o c o o p e r a t e w i t h t h e F B I . One o f t h e t h i n g s they t i c was t h e y used b l o c k ­ades on highways as a means of c h e c k i n g f o r r e v o l u t i o n a r i e s , d o i n g soot checks o f c a r s , p a s s i n g o u t wanted p e s t e r s t o oe o o i e i n t n e c a r s and c h e c k i n g i f m e r e were any o f t h e people on wanted p o s t e r s i n t h a t c a r . The JTTF a l s o p u b l i s h e d s e n s a t i o n a l i s t i c a r t i c l e s a b o ut us i n Readers' D i g e s t . c o m p l e t e w i t h wanted p o s t e r p h o t o s . T h i s magazine i s d i s t r i b u t e t o n e a r l y ever;.- d e n t i s t ' s anc d o c t o r ' s w a i t i n g room i n tne e n t i r e US, as w e l l as b e i n g i n ev e r y l i b r a r y , newsstand, and s o l d i n e v e r y g r o c e r y s t o r e . There was a l o t o f i l l e g a l s u r v e i l l a n c e A O f houses and p u b l i c t e l e p h o n e s w h i c h was done a b s o l u t e l y w i t h o u t w a r r a n t s .

The US has a s y s t e m a t i c way wherebv both t e l e p h o n e , room o r house s u r v e i l l a n c e i s " done . . . "^ere *j<urr*~J-0i>£cj.^j/^ ' jJi-H-<_ <"Up^JL5u^t.< Wa^c .

A l t h o u g n ~ n r - - r ~ amtm* y t n e r o i , ̂ ===ss—?»°r, u p n i n a l l or tne sub s e q u e n t t r i a l s .

They d i d a l o t of b r e a k - i n s i n t o homes anc p o l i t i c a l o f f i c e s o f f a m i l i e s anc s u p p o r t e r s

and they or course used a g a i n Grant J u r y subpoenas and t h r e a t s cf i m p r i s o n m e n t .

Q: C o u l d vou go more i n t o d e t a i l why tne s t a t e i s b r i n g i n g t h e s e i n d i c t m e n t s a g a i n s t you and why t h e s t a t e pursues t h e R e s i s t a n c e C o n s p i r a c y Case, e s p e c i a l l y s i n c e you have been

t h r o u g h 14 seoarace t r i a l s a l r e a d y and f o u r o f you have a l r e a d y r e c e i v e d s e n t e n c e s b e t ­ween 45 and 70 years ?

: We have a j t o t a l o f 225 y e a r s a g a i n s t us anc they want t o g i v e us 258 y e a r s more. I t i s an o b v i o u s q u e s t i o n — why would t h e s t a t e pursue t h i s i n d i c t m e n t when they a l r e a d y have us i n p r i s o n b a s i c a l l y f o r t n e r e s t o f our l i v e s . T h i s goes back to some of t h e p o l i t i c a l and p s y c h o l o g i c a l reasons and t a c t i c s w i t h i n t h e c o u n t e r i n s u r g e n c y s t r a t e g y . T h i s case i s b a s i c a l l y t h e l a s t p o l i t i c a l i n d i c t m e n t t h a t was b r o u g h t by t h e Meese J u s t i c e D e p a r t m e n t o e f o r e Meese was f o r c e d t o l e a v e i n t o t a l s c a n d a l and d i s g r a c e . At the t i m e o f t h e i n d i c t m e n t , people i n t h e US were becoming more d e t e r m i n e d t o r e s i s t US i n t e r v e n t i o n s i n C e n t r a l America. There had t e e n numerous d e m o n s t r a t i o n s a f t e r t h e US i n v a s i o n o f Grenada . a l o n g w i t h t h e bombing of t n e C a p i t o l t h a t we are accused o f . People were o u t r a g e d by t h e b l a t a n t v i o l a t i o n s o f b o t h US law and i n t e r n a t i o n a l law t n a t were being exposed i n t n e I r a n / C o n t r a S c a n d a l and o p p o s i t i o n a g a i n s t US s u p p o r t f o r a p a r t h e i d i n South A f r i c a was g r o w i n g t o o , e s p e c i a l l y among s t u d e n t s . , I n o r d e r t o c o n t i n u e t c implement i t s a g g r e s s i v e f o r e i g n p o l i c i e s , t h e US needs t o r e p r e s s , c o n t r o l and s t o p d o m e s t i c p o l i t i c a l o p p o s i t i o n t o t h o s e p o l i t i c s . So t h e i n d i c t m e n t a g a i n s t us i s p a r t of a s t r a t e g y t o c o n t r o l and i n t i ­m i d a t e t h e r e s i s t a n c e movement, e s p e c i a l l y t h e most m i l i t a n t s e c t o r s . T h i s case i s d e s i g n e e t o s t o p s e r i o u s , m i l i t a n t a c t i v i s t s f r o m d e v e l o p i n g any c a p a c i t y f o r c l a n d e s t i n e r e s i s t a n c e , and f r o m d e v e l o p i n g - a n y r e v o l u t i o n a r y s t r a t e g y t h a t i n c l u d e s armed s t r u g g l e as a c o m p o n e n t ^ - t i s a l s o an a t t e m p t t o d i v e r t a t t e n t i o n f r o m t h e I r a n C o n t r a s c a n d a l and f r o m t n e r o l e t h e h i g h e s t p l a t e d US o f f i c i a l s were p l a y i n g i n i t . I t h i n k t h e r e i s a second a s p e c t t o i t . They want t o d i v i d e t h e p r o g r e s s i v e movement a l o n g the l i n e s o f v i o l e n c e v e r s u s n o n v i o l e n c e , l e g a l p r o t e s t versus i l l e g a l r e s i s t a n c e . The US government wants t o be a b l e t o d e f i n e t h e b o u n d a r i e s o f the r e s i s t a n c e movement i n e v e r y way p o s s i b l e sc t n a t they can c o n t r o l i t . T h e r e f o r e i n the US t h e r e i s a l o t o f r e l u c t a n c e t o break l a w s i n terms o f b u i l d i n g a p r o t e s t movement, and t h e US has r e a l l y m a n i p u l a t e d t h a t by s a y i n g t n a t people who do i l l e g a l a c t i v i t i e s a r e t e r r o r i s t s . T h e r e f o r e t h e y have succeeded t o some e x t e n t i n b u i l d i n g a w a l l between t h e msct m i l i t a n t s e c t o r s c f the r e s i s t a n c e movement and p e o c l e wno a r e e n e g i n g i n r e s i s t a n c e a t a d i f f e r e n t l e v e l , perhaps n o t w a n t i n g t o break t h e l a w , o u t w i l i n g t o p a r t i c i p a t e i n d e m o n s t r a t i o n s . f

0: I s t h e r e any e q u i v a l e n t t o t h e § 129a i n t h e FRG which i s usee a g a i n s t r e v o l u t i o n a r i e s and t h e l e g a l r e s i s t a n c e n

.: Here t h e r e i s n o t h i n g l i k e t h a t . What t h e y have done - w h i c h makes i t v e r y d i f f i c u l t

f o r us t o b r i n g our p o l i t i c s i n t o our t r i a l s - i s t n a t they i n s i s t we snouic be t r i e d i n

^ , _ _ „ J , c . m e r e a r e a c o u p l e o f - a y s C h a t Che

h a v e"" 3o n e " ? tia Sns^s ^'hVc' c hey ^rfav e cnarged a l o c o f r e v o l u t i o n a r i e s w i t h " r a c k e t e e r i n g " and b e i n g p a r t o f r a c k e t e e r i n g i n f l u e n c e d o r g a n i z a t i o n s w h i c h p u t s us on the same L e v e l as t h e M a f i a . P a r t o f — i r e — * s t h e wnole aura of drug t r a f f i c k i n g and p r o f i t e e r i n g when i n

crx <lrvo?3 err ACTvViTOy ^n<r^tA

f a c t none o f t h e r e v o l u t i o n a r i e s charged under t h i s s t a t u t e a r e oonvicxed w d o r i t . pvoft'h I t h i n k t h e o t h e r t h i n g t n a t t h e y have done which i s i m p o r t a n t i n terms o f c r i m i n a l i z a t i o n i s t n a t t h e y c h a r g e d some p e o p l e , e s p e c i a l l y the P u e r t o R i c a n independence f i g h t e r s , under " s e d i t i o u s c o n s p i r a c y ' r which means an o v e r t a t t e m p t t o o v e r t h r o w the US government. They can do t h a t p a r t i c u l a r l y t c t n e P u e r t o Ricans because t h e P u e r t o Ricans are f i g h t i n g an a n t i - c o l o n i a l o a t t l e f o r independence. They nave a l s o used i t and are c u r r e n t l y u s i n g i t a g a i n s t some w h i t e a n t i - i m p e r i a l i s t s who are on t r i a l i n M a s s a c h u s s e t t s , known as the O h i o T h r e e or t n e seven or c u r r e n t l y on a t r i a l t h a t combines b o t h r a c k e t e e r i n g charges and s e d i t i o u s c o n s p i r a c y .

1: I n your c u r r e n t t r i a l you a r e b e i n g - t r i e d w i t h " c o n s p i r a c y " . Does t h a t e n t a i l t h a t t h e government a c t u a l l y has t o p r o v e t h a t you d i d the bombing o f the C a p i t o l or t h a t you j u s t nave t o c o n s p i r e d t o do so ?

1. . •: 1 t h i n k t n a t i s a n o t h e r r e a s o n why tne government has Drought the t r i a l a t t h i s p o i n t . L e g a l l y , t h e y want t o c o n t i n u e t o expand the use o f t h e c o n s p i r a c y laws. And t h e answer t o your q u e s t i o n i s "no". They don't nave t c prove t h a t any of us d i d the C a p i t o l bombing or any o f t h e o t h e r bombings t h a t we are accused o f . They have no d i r e c t e v i d e n c e o f t h a t , anc t h e y a d m i t t h i s . They nave no e y e - w i t n e s s e s , t h e y c a n ' t p l a t e any of us a t t n e scene o f any o f t h e bombings. What they nave done i s t o t r y t o use a l o t of c i r c u m s t a n ­t i a l e v i d e n c e and p o l i t i c a l e v i d e n c e t o prove t h a t we a g r e e d w i t h each o t h e r to implement t h e g o a l o f the c o n s p i r a c y w h i c h t h e y say i s t o " i n f l u e n c e , p r o t e s t and change US p o l i c i e s anc p r a c t i c e s i n v a r i o u s i n t e r n a t i o n a l and domestic m a t t e r s t h r o u g h i l l e g a l ana v i o l e n t means". Sc. o b v i o u s l y t n e g o a l s o f t n e c o n s p i r a c y as d e f i n e d by t h e government, were t o i n f l u e n c e , p r o t e s t and change - w h i c h under many c o n d i t i o n s w o u l d be a b s o l u t e l y l e g a l i n t h e US. What they i n t e n d t c do i s a c r i m i n a l i z a t i o n o f our p o l i t i c a l a s s o c i a t i o n s and t h e y want t o prove t h a t by knowing each o t h e r , by a g r e e i n g w i t h each o t h e r p o l i t i c a l l y , by h a v i r t w o rked w i t h each o t h e r i n v a r i o u s o r g a n i z a t i o n s , we t h e r f o r e a r e g u i l t y of c o n s p i r a c y ,

by a g r e e i n g t o nave a p o l i t i c a l g o a l . The way t h i s w i l l be a p p l i e d to the s p e c i f i c . . . .

oomomgs anc t o c o n v i c t us or them i s t h r o u g h a c o m b i n a t i o n o f u s i n g ' a i d i n g and a b e t t i n g law w h i c h means t h a t a n y t h i n g you do t o s u p p o r t one of t h e bombings c o u l d be c o n s i d e r e d " a i d i n g and a b e t t i n g " - even p a s s i n g on a communique, m a n u f a c t u r i n g some k i n d of ID, r e n t i n g an a p a r t m e n t thauwas then usee by r e v o l u t i o n a r i e s . A i l o f t h a t c o u l d be c o n s i d e r e d a i d i n g and a b e t t i n g and you become as g u i l t y of the combings as i f you had done the combing i c s e l f .

P o t e n t i a l l y , i t c o u i d

Q: P a r t of the s u p p o r t work t h a t i s b e i n g done arounc -cur case i s a c t u a l l y a l s o f o c u s e d on the upcoming t r i a l . I t seems l i k e t h e c o n d i t i o n s t h e s t a t e i s c r e a t i n g f o r t h e t r i a l are v e r y s i m i l a r to t n e c o n d i t i o n s o f the t r i a l s i n Stammheim.

.: The m i l i t a r i z a t i o n of the c o u r t r o o m i s u n p r e c e d e n t e d . They nave b u i l t a b u l l e t p r o o f w a i l i n the c o u r t r o o m , they put i n s u r v e i l l a n c e cameras f o r t h e f i r s t t i m e i n a f e d e r a l c o u r t t h a t are aimed a t t h e d e f e n d a n t s and a t t h e s p e c t a t o r s s p e c i f i c a l l y f o r s u r v e i l l a n c e p u r p o s e s by the F B I . T h i s i s p a r t o f t h e i r wnole s t r a t e g y c f p o r t r a y i n g us as " t e r r o r i s t s " . The atmosphere i n t h e c o u r t r o o m , t h e propaganda i n t h e media i s aimed a t i s o l a t i n g us and t o i n t i m i d a t e p e o p l e from s u p p o r t i n g us. The m i l i t a r i z a t i o n o f t n e c o u r t r o o m i s c a r t o f t h a t because people w i l l be a f r a i d t o a t t e n d t h e t r i a l , because i t i s s c a r y t o go i n t o a c o u r c r r o m when you see the whole p l a c e i s r i n g e d w i t h m a r s h a l s . T h e r e are h e l i c o p t e r s over one c o u r t r o o m , t h e r e are s n i p e r s on t h e r o o f o f t n e c o u r t r o o m , t h e y a i l have b u l l e t - p r o o f v e s t s . They w i l l ahve a h i g n - s p e e d convoy w i t h o o i i c e s i r e n s ana many p o l i c e c a r s t n a t b r i n g us t o c o u r t every day t h r o u g h t h e s t r e e t s o f W a s h i n g t o n DC, so t n a t everybody can p o i n t and say " t h e r e go the t e r r o r i s t s " . The whole atmosohere around the t r i a l i s d e s i g n e e t o t e r r i f y t h e j u r y , so t h a t t h e y can assume c h a t we are g u i l t y b e f o r e the t r i a l even b e g i n s . A n o t h e r a s p e c t o f what we are g o i n g t c nave t o s t r u g g l e v e r y h a r d a g a i n s t i s t h a . t t.r > r W p>«iiticai t r i a l s i n t n e c a s t , t h e y have i n s t i t u t e d anonymous j u r i e s . Normally i n t h e US defense l a w y e r s , t h e c o u r t anc t h e p r o s e c u t o r know who t h e j u r o r s are which e n a b l e s people t o p i c k a j u r y . Then t h e r e i s some chance o f some s y m p a t h e t . or open-mindea j u r o r . T r y i n g t o i n s t i t u t e an anonymous j u r y i s p a r t c f j u s t t e r r o r i z i n g • t h e j u r o r s . They are i s o l a t e d i n h o t e l s t h r o u g h o u t t n e t r i a l , under armed g u a r d by t h e US m a r s h a l s , anc they a r e t o l d i t i s f o r t h e i r own p r o t e c t i o n , becaus ? tne p e o p l e on t r i a l a r e " d a n g e r o u s " .

- t h i n k t n e o t n e r r e a s o n t h a t t h e s t a t e b r o u g h t t n i s i n d i c t m e n t i s b e c a u s e t h e y a r e r e a l l y t r y i n g t o r e h a b i l i t a t e t n e F B I . I t w e n t t h r o u g h a o e r i o d o r b e i n g r e s t r i c t e d a f t e r t h e i l l e g a l p r o g r a m s o f t n e 6 0 s anc t n e COINTELPRO p r o g r a m o f t h e e a r l y "Us w e r e e x p o s e d . Now, a n d u n d e r R e a g a n i n p a r t i c u l a r , t n e F B I i s r e s u r g e n t . I t i s g e t t i n g m o r e p o w e r f u l a n d i t s s c o p e i s b r o a d e r . T h e y w a n t t o s o l v e t h e C a p i t o l b o m b i n g , and tne;.- w a n t t o ce a o l e t c snow t h e m s e l v e s as s u c c e s f u l i n t h e i r " a n t i - t e r r o r i s t s t r a t e g y . T h i s t n e n w i l l j u s t i f y a l l t h e i l l e g a l a c t i v i t i e s t h a t t h e y h a v e d o n e .

0: By t h e s e s p e c i a l c o n d i t i o n s t n a t a r e b e i n g c r e a t e d a r o u n d t h i s t r i a l , do y o u f e e l i t w i l l ce a t a l l p o s s i b l e f o r y o u t c d e f e n d y o u r s e l v e s as r e v o l u t i o n a r i e s ? Anc i s a p o l i t i c a l d e f e n s e a l l o w e d u n d e r t n e c o n s p i r a c y l a w s '

.: As I s a i d b e f o r e , t h e l a w s t h a t we a r e b e i n g t r i e d u n d e r a r e c r i m i n a l s t a t u t e s . l t means t h e judge a u t o m a t i c a l l y can r e s t r i c t t h e amount o f p o l i t i c a l i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t we b r i n g i n t o t h e t r i a l . The t r i a l i t s e l f i s g o i n g t o be a b a t t l e g r o u n d f o r o u r s e l v e s t o make i t i n t o a p o l i t i c a l t r i a l and f o r t h e government t o n a r r o w i t i n t o t h e most narrow c r i m i n a l t r i a l . What we p l a n t o do - and hope t o do - has a c o u p l e o f d i f f e r e n t p o l i t i c a l a s p e c t s . One i s t o p o r t r a y o u r s e l v e s as r e v o l u t i o n a r i e s , t o show what o u r h i s t o r y o f work i n t h e many p a r t s o f t h e p r o g r e s s i v e movements has been, t o p o r t r a y o u r s e l v e s as s u p p o r t e r s - o f t h e n a t i o n a l l i b e r a t i o n movements h e r e i n t h e US'and around the- w o r l d And- ta-show t h a t we a r e p a r t o f a progressive-movement i n t h i s c o u n t r y t h a t i s f i g h t i n g f o r \ c h a n g e - t o s t o p r a c i s m and r a c i s t a t t a c k s , t o s u p p o r t women' s l i b e r a t i o n and an end t o l e s b i a n and gay o p p r e s s i o n , a movement t h a t s u p p o r t s t h e b a s i c human r i g h t s o f a l l p e o p l e t o have h o u s i n g , f o o d , e d u c a t i o n , h e a l t h c a r e and j o b s .

The second t h i n g w h i c h we r e a l l y hope t o do i s t o expose t h e US government as an o u t l a w government, under i n t e r n a t i o n a l law, and t o show a l l t h e d i f f e r e n t ways - o r as many as t h e j u r o r s can comprehend - how t h e US v i o l a t e s i n t e r n a t i o n a l l a w , how i t v i o l a t e s b a s i c human r i g h t s e v e r y day o f i t s own c i t i z e n s . Because some o f us have f o u g h t a g a i n s t t h e K u - K l u x - K i a n as p u b l i c a c t i v i s t s , we hope we w i l l be a b l e t o show how t h e US government encourages w h i t e supremacy and w h i t e s u p r e m a c i s t o r g a n i z a t i o n s l i k e t h e N a z i s and t h e KKK h e r e i n t h e US t o expose t h a t t o the j u r y . We hope t o expose t h e i l l e g a l a c t i v i t i e s i n t h e c o n t r a war a g a i n s t Nicaragua and i n E l S a l v a d o r t h a t t h e government has p e r p e t r a t e d . S i m i l a r l y i t s s u p p o r t f o r Z i o n i s m and i t s s u p p o r t f o r a p a r t h e i d . 1 So we p l a n - as b e s t p o s s i b l e - t o b r i n g i n e x p e r t s on i n t e r n a t i o n a l l a w and e x p l a i n t o the j u r y o ur m o t i v a t i o n s as p a r t o f t h e r e s i s t a n c e movement. T h i s does n o t mean s a y i n g " yes, we d i d t h e bombings" , bu t "yes.Jwe are p a r t o f a r e s i s t a n c e movement t h a t has many d i f f e r e n t a s p e c t s t o i t , and<_^. i t engases i n amny t a c t i c s of r e s i s t a n c e " ; t h a t t h i s movement i s a l e g i t i m a t e movement,-. t h a t i t i s j u s t i f i e d because of US cri m e s a r o u n d t h e w o r l d : So, these a r e two or t h e V. t h i n g s we hope t o a c c o m p l i s h w i t h t h e t r i a l , and o f course t h e k i n d of o u t s i d e s u p p o r t we a r e a b l e t o b u i l d i s v e r y i m p o r t a n t

0: I t seems t h a t a r o u n d a i l the o t h e r t r i a l s t h e r e h a s n ' t been a v e r y b i g media campaign.

The i n f o r m a t i o n h a s n ' t been so much d i r e c t e d a t t h e b r o a d e r p u b l i c , but a t t h e p r o g r e s s i v e

community. Do you t h i n k t h a t t h i s p a t t e r n w i l l be broken w i t h t h i s t r i a l ?

,: No, I don't t h i n k so. I t s s h o w t r i a l c h a r a c t e r w i l l be d o m i n a n t l y d i r e c t e d i n t h e c o u r t r o o m and a t t h e ' . ... P a r t o f t h e 1978 c o n f e r e n c e i n P u e r t o R i c o was an o v e r t agreement between t h e press and t h e US government t h a t t h e y would n o t p o r t r a y r e v o l u t i o n a r i e s as human beings and t h a t t h e y w o u l d i g n o r e t h e p o l i t i c a l c o n t e x t o f our a c t i o n s i n t h e media. The media w i l l c o o p e r a t e w i t h t h e FBI i n p o r t r a y i n g us o n l y as c r i m i n a l s and t e r r o r i s t s , and t h a t agreement has been p r e t t y much f u l f i l l e d by t h e p r e s s .

There has been some a l t e r n a t i v e p r e s s c o v e r a g e , some c o v e r a g e i n t h e l e s b i a n and gay and women's p r e s s , b u t o v e r a l l we r e a l l y had t o s t r u g g l e t o g e t o u r p e r s p e c t i v e on t h e t r i a l o u t And I t h i n k , t h a t w i l l c o n t i n u e t o be r e a l l y d i f f i c u l t .

Q: 8 e f o r e y o u r a r r e s t s a l l o f you have been l o n g t i m e a c t i v i s t s i n v a r i o u s p u b l i c p r o g r e s s i v e movements. C o u l d you d e s c r i b e t h a t a l i t t l e b i t and p r o b a b l y d e s c r i b e why you d e c i d e d t o t a k e up a more m i l i t a n t s t r u g g l e a g a i n s t t h e s y s t e m ?

.: I t h i n k a l l o f us were formed i n t h e c r u c i b l e i n t h e 1960s when t h e n a t i o n a l l i b e r a t i o n movements a r o u n d t h e w o r l d were on t h e r i s e and were c h a l l e n g i n g t h e hegemony o f US i m p e r i a l i s m . F o r a l l o f us t h a t has been a v e r y f o r m a t i v e e x p e r i e n c e f o r a c o u p l e o f r e a s o n s : We were a l l a n t i - r a c i s t s and each o f us had been i m p a c t e d by t h e c i v i l r i g h t s move­ment, has j o i n e d i n a c t i v i t i e s i n s u p p o r t o f t h e b l a c k masses i n the South who were d e m o n s t r a t i n g and r i s k i n g t h e i r l i v e s f o r t h e r i g h t t o v o t e and t o end s e g r e g a t i o n and t o f i g h t f o r human r i g h t s . We had a l l been i m p r e s s e d by t h e f a c t t h a t such a s i m o l e t h i n g as t h e d e m o c r a t i c r i g h t t o v o t e demanded t h a t p e o p l e r i s k t h e i r l i v e s and come up b o t h a g a i n s t t h e K u - K l u x - K l a n and a g a i n s t t h e power o f t h e s t a t e . I n t h e 6 0 s , when we began t o see a b l a c k power movement t a l k i n g a b o u t n a t i o n h o o d , t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e r i g h t t o s e l f - d e t e r m i n a t i o n t h a t i m p r e s s e d us as a c o r r e c t s t r a t e g y f o r e n d i n g r a c i s m . A t t h e same t i m e when we saw t h e n a t i o n o f V i e t n a m c a p a b l e o f w i n n i n g a g a i n s t t h e US t h a t a l s o t o l d us something a b o u t t h e p o t e n t i a l f o r c h a n g i n g t h i n g s , n o t j u s t p r o t e s t i n g and b e i n g d i s s a t i s f i e d , b u t c h a n g i n g t h i n g s . A l l o f us had some r e l a t i o n s h i p t o t h e b l a c k l i b e r a t i o n s t r u g g l e as a v e r y f o r m a t i v e p a r t o f o u r p o l i t i c s . The B l a c k l i b e r a t i o n s t r u g g l e r a i s e d t h e i s s u e s of power and fiow change can be made. I t a l s o r a i s e d f u n d a m e n t a l i s s u e s o f t h e v a l u e s o f t h e s o c i e t y , a n d t h e c o n t e n t o f our l i v e s - t h e t h i n g s we f i g h t f o r . S e v e r a l o f us were r i g h t i n t h e o e g i n n i n o f b u i l d i n g some s o l i d a r i t y o r g a n i z a t i o n s w i t h t h e P u e r t o R i c a n independence movement. A l l o f t h o s e t h i n g s f o r m e d o u r p o l i t i c s . They a l s o b r o u g h t us i n d i r e c t c o n f r o n t a t i o n w i t h t h e f o r c e s o f t h e s t a t e , p a r t i c u l a r l y t h e F B I . And as a r e s u l t we were a l s o t a r g e t t e d by c o u n t e r i n t e l l i g e n c e programs i n t h e 60s. T h a t p l a y e d a b i g r o l e i n c o n v i n c i n g us t h a t you c a n n o t b u i l d any k i n d o f r e s i s t a n c e movement - not j u s t a r e v o l u t i o n a r y movement - t h a t s e r i o u s l y c h a l l e n g e s t h e a b i l i t y o f t h e US government t o c a r r y o u t i t s c o l o n i a l i s t p o l i c i e s i n s i d e t h e b o r d e r s o f t h e US and around t h e w o r l d w i t h o u t h a v i n g a c l a n d e s t i n e component o f i t . T h a t i s one o f t h e r e a s o n s why we were a l l c o m m i t t e d t o b u i l d an armed c l a n d e s t i n e move­ment .

Q'. At t h e t i m e when y o u chose o r were f o r c e d t o go u n d e r g r o u n d i t seems l i k e t h e f i r s t

wave o f o r g a n i z e d armed s t r u g g l e i n t h e US had a l r e a d y been su p p r e s s e d by C0I>fTELPR0 and

by the Weather U n d e r g r o u n d b a s i c a l l y d i s p e r s i n g . Where you r e l a t i n g a l o t t o t h e i r

e x p e r i e n c e s and how d i d you r e l a t e t o the mass movements, i . e . , t h e C e n t r a l America

s o l i d a r i t y movement, a t t h e t i m e when you were u n d e r g r o u n d ^

T h a t i s a h a r d q u e s t i o n . F i r s t o f a l l , i t i s t r u e t h a t d u r i n g t h e s i x t i e s when t h e r e was a massive a n t i - w a r movement the r e s i s t a n c e movement was very broad and encompassec many forms o f r e s i s t a n c e . There were o t h e r armed g r o u p s as w e l l , n o t j u s t t h e Weather U n d e r g r o u n d . I t i s a l s o t r u e t h a t t h e Weather Underground s t o p p e d engaging i n armed s t r u g g l e and w i t h d r e w f r o m s u p p o r t f o r n a t i o n a l l i b e r a t i o n s t r u g g l e s i n t h e m i d - 7 0 s . However, the-Black: L i b e r a t i o n Army (BLA) c o n t i n u e d t o f u n c t i o n r i g h t up i n t o t h e 80s. The FALN ( F u e r z a s Armadas de L i b e r a c i o n N a t i o n a l ) o f t h e P u e r t o Rican independence movement c o n t i n u e d t o f u n c t i o n . And one o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t i n f l u e n c e d us v e r y much was t h a t we were always engaged i n r e v o l u t i o n a r y s o l i d a r i t y on many d i f f e r e n t l e v e l s . We a r e c o m m i t t e d t o r e s i s t i n g and s t o p p i n g US war c r i m e s , and t h a t b o t h makes us a p a r t o f t h e C e n t r a l America movement and a l s o d i f f e r e n t i a t e s us fr o m many s e c t o r s o f t h e movement. W i t h i n t h e movement t h e r e a r e p e o p l e who want t o t r y t o i n t e r v e n e t o s t o p US war c r i m e s and o t h e r who o n l y want t o e d u c a t e people a b o u t US p o l i t i c s . T h a t s e c t o r o f t h e C e n t r a l America movement b e l i e v s t h a t you s h o u l d n o t b r e a k t h e law o r use m i l i t a n t f o r m s o f s t r u g g l e Because t h e government's p o l i c i e s towards C e n t r a l America a r e c o n t i n u i n g , t h e more m i l i t a n t s e c t o r has become more s y m p a t h e t i c t o us and o u r commitment t o r e s i s t . There i s more s u p p o r t f o r us now t h a n t h e r e was a t t h e p o i n t when we were s t i l l u n d erground. I t h i n k p a r t o f t h a t i s because we a r e i n p r i s o n now, we a r e more a c c e s s i b l e f o r p e o p l e , t h e y can s t r u g g l e w i t h u s . We have more o f a r e l a t i o n s h i p t o some o f t h e mass movements now. Whenever you have a s e r i e s o f a r r e s t s as s e r i o u s as o u r s and t h e o t e h r c l a n d e s t i n e r e s i s t a n c o r g a n i z a t i o n s i n t h i s c o u n t r y , you have t o r e e v a l u a t e . You have t o e v a l u a t e b o t h y o u r s t r a t e g y and your t a c t i c s . You c a n ' t say i t was a l l t a c t i c a l e r r o r s . There have,to-"De s t r a t e g i c e r r o r s £ 7 h e s i x o f us a r e n o t p a r t o f one r e v o l u t i o n a r y o r g a n i z a t i o n , and we ar e a l l r e t h i n k i n g many d i f f e r e n t t h i n g s . But I t h i n k i t i s s a f e t o say f o r a l l o f us what we w i l l never g i v e up i s o u r a b i l i t y t o r e s i s t ^ "-^>LJv. f

Q: You have s a i d e a r l i e r t h a t a l l o f you have been v e r y much i n f l u e n c e d by t h e women's l i b e r a t i o n movement. Whta e x a c t l y do you r e f e r t o by t h a t ?

. i : For those o f us i n t h i s case who a r e women, we a l l went t h r o u g h the e x p e r i e n c e s t h a t women i n t h i s s o c i e t y have - b e i n g t a r g e t t e d by a l l k i n d s o f v i o l e n c e , b e i n g d e n i g r a t e d b e i n g t r e a t e d as s e c o n d - c l a s s c i t i z e n s , and more, and more b e i n g f o r c e d t o i n t e r n a l i z e c e r t a i n forms o f our own o p p r e s s i o n . Our r e s p o n s e j t o t h a t o p p r e s s i o n was t o i d e n t i f y w i t h o t h e r oppressed p e o p l e and t o commit o u r s e l v e s t o f i g h t i n g f o r our own l i b e r a t i o n . For us t h e b e g i n n i n g s o f t h e women's l i b e r a t i o n movement had h e l d o u t n o t j u s t t h e hope o f our own e q u a l i t y and fre e d o m and t h e r i g h t t o f u l l y p a r t i c i p a t e i n t h i s s o c i e t y , b u t a l s o t h e whole concept o f l i b e r a t i o n i t s e l f . T hat i s s u c h a r e v o l u t i o n a r y c o n c e p t , w h i c h I t h i n k i s why t h e r e can never be a s u s t a i n e d , women' s ^ i b e r a t i q n c o n t e x t or" a r e v o l u t i o n a r " i r i i T D n 4

s t a i n e d women'S/CLiberatiqn movement o u t s i d e t h e , i JL,.

c h a t a r e pare o f what i t w i l l mean f o r women t o w i n t h e i r l i b e r a t i o n and f o r l e s b i a n s t o )

w i n t h e i r l i b e r a t i o n , i s f u n d a m e n t a l t o c h a n g i n g t h e v a l u e s t h i s s o c i e t y i s c o n s t r u c t e d o n .

Q: I w o u l d l i k e t o come back t o t h a t . L i n d a and you b o t h have been o u t s p o k e n l e s b i a n s . Do y o u see any c o n t r a d i c t i o n s f o r y o u r s e l v e s i n w o r k i n g w i t h a mixed a n t i - i m p e r i a l i s t g r o u p ?

L i n d a and I , and M a r i l y n and Susan, have a l l been p a r t o f s e p a r a t e women's o r g a n i z a t i o n s , b u t n e v e r s e p a r a t i s t . The d i f f e r e n c e i s t h a t t h e s e p a r a t i s t women's movement and t h e s e p a r a t i s t l e s b i a n s movement have a d i f f e r e n t a n a l y s i s o f who t h e enemy i s - t h e y d e f i n e p a t r i a r c h y and men as t h e enemy, as opposed t o i m p e r i a l i s m and male supremacy. I have been a b l e t o work w i t h s e p a r a t i s t g r o u p s , b u t o n l y on a v e r y l i m i t e d b a s i s , because I l o o k a t t h e n a t i o n a l l i b e r a t i o n s t r u g g l e s as my a l l y ; t h e y l o o k a t o n l y women as t h e i r a l l i e s and men o f any n a t i o n s as t h e i r enemies. We b e l i e v e v e r y s t r o n g l y i n t h e need f o r women t o have caucuses, g r o u p s , s e p a r a t e o r g a n i z a t i o n s . B e i n g p a r t o f autonomous' women's g r o u p s or women's caucuses o r t r y i n g t o c r e a t e a s e p a r a t e women's p r o g r a m i s . n o t j u s t a r e f l e c t i o n t h a t men a r e h a r d t o work w i t h , which t h e y a r e v e r y o f t e n , b u t t o me i t i s a l s o p a r t o f d e v l o p i n g a r e v o l u t i o n a r y p r o c e s s which a t t h e end w i l l c r e a t e a d i f f e r e n t s o c i e t y f r o m what would e x i s t i f we d i d n ' t have t h a t .

Q: I n Europe , pe o p l e have m o s t l y seen what t h e Reagan a d m i n i s t r a t i o n has done on an i n t e r n a t i o n a l l e v e l , b u t maybe you can t a l k a l i t t l e b i t about what has changed d o m e s t i c a l l ; and how t h o s e changes e f f e c t e d any k i n d o f d o m e s t i c o p p o s i t i o n t o t h e system ?

.: The p o l i c i e s o f the Regan a d m i n s i t r a t i o n b o t h i n t e r n a t i o n a l l y and d o m e s t i c a l l y were c h a r a c t e r i z e d by i n c r e a s e d d o m i n a t i o n and e x p l o i t a t i o n , by an u n p r e c e d e n t e d b u i l d ­up o f t h e m i l i t a r y c a p a b i l i t i e s and m i l i t a r y i n d u s t r i e s . A l l i n an a t t e m p t t o r e i n s t i t u t e t h e US as t h e hegemonic i m p e r i a l i s t power. The a t t a c k on t h e f i r s t b l a c k s o c i a l i s t n a t i o n i n t h i s hemisphere - Grenada - showed what t h e Reagan a d m i n i s t r a t i o n ' s p o s i t i o n on s e l f - d e t e r m i n a t i o n was. The Reagan e r a has had a d e s v a s t a t i n g impact on p r o b a b l y a l l b u t t h e r u l i n g c l a s s . I t has been f e l t i n e v e r y c l a s s and i t i s be i n g p a r t i c u l a r l y f e l t by t h e o p p r e s s e d n a t i o n s ' c o m m u n i t i e s . The l e v e l o f c u l t u r a l g e nocide was r a i s e d . The s o - c a l l e d "war on d r u g s " , t h e drug war, has r e a l l y been a war a g a i n s t b l a c k p e o p l e and L a t i n American p e o p l e , P u e r t o R i c a n and Mexican p e o p l e . And t h e y have been v e r y s u c c e s f u l i n t u r n i n g e v e r y t h i n g around - i t i s what George O r w e l l c a l l e d " new speak" - t o make t h i n g s be t h e o p p o s i t e o f what t h e y r e a l l y a r e . The s t a t e has c r e a t e d c o n d i t i o n s t h a t l e a v e s p e o p l e homeless, where t h e r e a r e no s o c i a l programs o r m e d i c a l c a r e . Even t h e s m a l l l e v e l o f r e f o r m s t h a t p e o p l e g a i n e d i n the l a t e 60s and 70s has been c u t and wiped o u t and b a s i c a l l y t h e s t a t e s a i d " e v e r y one. f o r 'ftem scJjf?". T h i s

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has t a k e n p l a c e a t t h e major expense o£ b l a c k p e o p l e and w o r k i n g c l a s s w h i t e people and women. I t h i n k t h a t t h e Reagan e r a has been v e r y d e v a s t a t i n g d o m e s t i c a l l y , b u t t o a l a r g e d e g r e e t h a t i s based on a l e v e l o f c o n s o l i d a t i o n o f what t h e y c a l l " w i n n i n g t h e h e a r t s and m i n d s " . T h i s i s what t h e y have l e a r n e d f r o m V i e t n a m - t h e y have been s u e c e s f u l t o d i v i d e

„ t h e s t r u g g l e , t o d i v i d e t h e p e o p l e . The s t a t e has shaped t h e q u e s t i o n s t o t r y t o c r e a t e 4

an i n t e r n a l enemy. So now, a n t i - i m p e r i a l i s t s l i k e o u r s e l v e s become p a r t o f t h e i n t e r n a l £_A<2_ Hade,

enemy. B l a c k p e o p l e b i • tme. p a r t o f t h e i n t e r n a l nnrmy.li i n n l l n ' j mrr r t r n i p i — t h e y , a r e p o a r and n p p r r i r i f r i nml w \.hw ctoa4.. The g o v e r n m e n t r i s c r e a t i n g enemies i n o r d e r t o d i v e r t a t t e n t i o n f r o m t h e r a c i s m and t h e c o n c e p t o f w h i t e supremacy and t o c o v e r up t h e r e a l q u e s t i o n o f who i s the enemy and what i s t h e enemy, i v &-L(ouj Tk£rv\ incr-eiLse

Q: A l l o f you a r e t a l k i n g about t h e US as an e m p i r e and c o l o n i a l n a t i o n , b o t h d o m e s t i c a l l y and i n t e r n a t i o n a l l y . C o u l d you s p e c i f y t h a t , and a l s o c o u l d you s p e c i f y what e f f e c t s t h a t has on t h e s t r u g g l e i n t h e US ?

S: The m a i n ' t h i n g a b o u t t h e US b e i n g an e m p i r e i s t h a t , because t h e r e a r e i n t e r n a l c o l o n i e s t h a t a r e h e l d by one government w i t h i n t h e same l a n d base, t h e r e i s no homogenous s t r u g g l e - t h e r e i s no one w o r k i n g c l a s s , t h e r e i s no one movement, and so t h e a n t i -l m p e r i a l i s t s e c t o r o f t h e movement has been d e f i n e d , grown up..matured i n r e l a t i o n s h i p t o t h e advances o f n a t i o n a l l i b e r a t i o n movements i n s i d e o f the i n t e r ­n a l l y h e l d c o l o n i e s . I t h i n k t h a t i s t h e most c r i t i c a l d i f f e r e n c e between us and our European c o u n t e r p a r t s , i n a d d i t i o n t o us b e i n g i n t h e c e n t e r o f what has been u n t i l r e c e n t l y t h e c e n t e r o f t h e i m p e r i a l i s t system. So i t has g o t t h e most i n t e n s e elements o f - t h e c o n t r a d i c t i o n s . I t i s a l s o f o r us been a n a l y t i c a l l y t h e t o o l f o r t h e d e s t r u c t i o n o f t h i s c o u n t r y . Because t h e r e a r e i n t e r n a l c o l o n i e s , because t h e r e a r e oppressed people and because i t i s an e m p i r e t h a t has g r a f t e d t o g e t h e r d i f f e r e n t p e o p l e s i n t o one f e d e r a l s t a t e , t h e key t o i t s change, massive change - w h a t e v e r f o r m t h a t may t a k e - i s p r i m a r i l y been f r o m t h e T h i r d W o r l d p e o p l e i n t h i s c o u n t r y . As t h e n a t i o n a l s t r u g g l e s a c h i e v e s e l f - d e t e r m i n a t i o n , t h e e m p i r e w i l l be b r o k e n up. The e i g h t y e a r s o f t h e Reagan regime have e n t r e n c h e d a f a c i s i d e o l o g y i n t h i s c o u n t r y and an economic system t h a t i s a t t h e base of t h a t . But i t i s t h e s t r u g g l e o f t h e i n t e r n a l c o l o n i e s t h a t i s t h e most dynamic, b o t h because o f t h e i r n a t i o n a l c h a r a c t e r and because i t i s members o f t h e i n t e r n a l c o l o n i e s who a l s o are i n t h e most m i l i t a n t p a r t o f t h e working c l a s s . Because t h e g e n o c i d e a g a i n s t t h e oppressed and p o o r p e o p l e has t a k e n such a s t r o n g advance, t h e r e i s a r e a c t i o n and t h e r e i s g o i n g t o be more o f a r e a c t i o n . F o r example i n t h e b l a c k c o m m u n i t i e s t h e r e - i s a b e g i n n i n g o f an u n d e r ­s t a n d i n g a g a i n o f t h e p o l i c e , and t h e r o l e o f t h e p o l i c e , as an o c c u p y i n g f o r c e by t h e US t o m a i n t a i n d o m i n a t i o n and c o n t r o l i n t h a t c o m m u n i t y , f.£, i n New York where t h e r e has been a l o t o f o p p o s i t i o n by d i f f e r e n t b l a c k p e o p l e and A f r i c a n A m e r i c a n s . Now the o p p o s i t i o n i s noc i n a v e r y o r g a n i z e d s t a t e of d e v e l o p m e n t , b u t i t i s d e f i n i t e l y emerging a g a i n .

I t h i n k t h e 90s a r e g o i n g t o be a b o u t t h a t k i n d o f mass s t r u g g l e around s o c i a l c o n d i t i o n s and w i t h some k i n d o f p o l i t i c a l c o n s c i o u s n e s s t h a t comes fr o m t h e f a c t t h a t i t i s based on. r a c i s m and n a t i o n a l o p p r e s s i o n . T h e r e has been a s e r i e s o f murders o f b l a c k people by w h i t e p e o p l e i n e v e r y major u r b a n c e n t e r i n t h e l a s t p e r i o d . And t h e r e has been a r e s p o n s e by t h e b l a c k community t o t h a t i n New York. They c a l l e d i t t h e "day o f o u t r a g e " . T h e r e were s e v e r a l thousand p e o p l e who o c c u p i e d downtown Manhattan i n p r o t e s t o f t h a t . T h a t i s j u s t one example o f t h e k i n d o f development. Now, t h a t i s n o t n e c e s s a r i l y a new d e v e l o p m e n t , b u t i t i s p a r t o f a p o l i t i c a l p r o c e s s whereby new s t r a t e g i e s and o p i n i o n s can b e g i n t o emerge. I c e r t a i n l y b e l i e v e t h a t | i f t h e r e i s g o i n g t o be any k i n d o f change

- r e v o l u t i o n a r y o r r e f o r m i s t - i t i s g o i n g t o be l o c a t e d and m o t i v a t e d f r o m t h e s t r u g g l e o f o p p r e s s e d p e o p l e s . T h e r e a r e o t h e r examples i n terms o f t h e P u e r t o Rican movement. I would say v e r y b r i e f l y t h a t P u e r t o Rico has been a d i r e c t c o l o n y o f t h e US, and f o r us as a n t i - i m p e r i a l i s t s we b e l i j y e t h a t i t i s our a b s o l u t e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o s t r u g g l e f o r t h e independence o f P u e r t o Rico." T h a t i s a s t r u g g l e t h a t i s g o i n g on r i g h t now, and i t i s g o i n g on w i t h t h e C e n t r a l A m e r i c a s o l i d a r i t y movement, t o say t h a t t h e y have t o i n c l u d e P u e r t o R i c o , because t h e US government o c c u p i e s

m i l i t a r y and nuctea J9% j o f t h e l a n d i n P u e r t o R i c o through t h e m i l i t a r y bases. I t i s US

>wer t h a t d o m i n a t e s t h e l i f e o f the i n l a n d . The US a t t h e moment i s t r y i n g t o f o r c e on t h e P u e r t o R i c a n p e o p l e a f a l s e p l e b i s c i t e , namely t o c o v e r t h e i r t r a c k s i n t h e a u L j i -u«e-a^cajt*anal community. Because the C e n t r a l American and C a r i b b e a n n a t i o n s r e c o g n i z e P u e r t o Rico as p a r t o f t h e Caribbean and as p a r t of t h e s t r u g g l e t h a t i s g o i n g - o n i n t h a t r e g i o n . And as l o n g as t h o s e n a t i o n s c o n t i n u e t o a g i t a t e a g a i n s t t h e US's h o l d on P u e r t o R i c o , t h e US f e e l s some p r e s s u r e on t a h t i s s u a a n d t h e y d o n ' t w a n t - t o d e a l w i t h t h a t i n t h e n e x t p e r i o d because P u e r t o Rico i s a l s o v e r y p r o f i t a b l e . I t i s a l s o v e r y i m p o r t a n t m i l i t a r i l y . I t i s f r o m t h e R o o s e v e l t Naval Base i n P u e r t o R i c o t h a t t h e US w i l l l a u n c h any k i n d o f m i l i t a r y o p e r a t i o n i n any p a r t o f C e n t r a l A m e r i c a . I t i s t h e i r o n l y o p t i o n i n r e g a r d t o l o o s i n g t h e Panama C a n a l . There i s a l o t o f m o t i o n a r o u n d P u e r t o R i c o r i g h t now, and w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e l i b e r a t i o n movement i s g o i n g t o be a b l e t o use i t i n t h e most p o s i t i v e way i s u n c l e a r . B u t what i s a b s o l u t e l y i m p o r t a n t f o r anybody l o o k i n g a t t h e US l e f t i s t h a t t h e independence movement cannot be d e s t r o y e d by t h e US.

Q: What a r e t h e c o n d i t i o n s under w h i c h you a r e b e i n g h e l d i n t h e DC J a i l . And how has *>. been'and i s b e i n g i s o l a t i o n used a g a i n s t you 9

.: When we f i r s t g o t here a t t h e DC D e t e n t i o n Center we were hel d a t wha.t they c a l l h e r e s p e c i a l h a n d l i n g w h i c h meant t h a t we were l o c k e d i n o u r c e l l s 23 hours a day. We were n e v e r a l l o w e d t o go o u t w i t h o t h e r p r i s o n e r s . We had a l l our c o n v e r s a t i o n s and c o r r e s p o n d e n c e m o n i t o r e d and whenever we l e f t o u r c e l l b l o c k we were both i n l e g i r o n s and h a n d c u f f s , i n c l u d i n g i n l e g a l m e e t i n g s . T h i s was done d i r e c t l y a t t h e r e q u e s t o f a s p e c i a l g r o u p w i t h i n t h e US M a r s h a l l S e r v i c e t h a t h a n d l e s s e c u r i t y f o r pps. They s p r e a d r u m o r s among t h e s t a f f and t r i e d t o g e t t o t h e p r i s o n e r s t h a t the s i x o f us were i n v o l v e d i n a w h i t e s u p r e m a c i s t group r a t h e r t h a n w i t h a r e v o l u t i o n a r y group t h e r b y t r i n g t o i s o l a t < us f u r t h e r from t h e b u l k o f t h e p o p u l a t i o n , t h e A f r i c a n - A m e r i c a n people who a r e h e r e . We t r i e d t o f i g h t t h o s e c o n d i t i o n s t h r o u g h a mass m o b i l i z a t i o n and i n t h e c o u r t s . A f t e r a b o u t s i x months we were a c t u a l l y a b l e t o g e t t h e judge t o o r d e r some changes i n o u r c o n d i t i o n s . For most o f t h e p a s t year we a c t u a l l y have been h e l d i n c o n d i t i o n s n o t t o o d i s s i m i l a r f r o m t h e b u l k o f t h e p o p u l a t i o n h e r e . One t h i n g t h a t was p a r t o f t h e s p e c i a l handling„and c o n t i n u e d f o r a year was t h a t we were never a l l o w e d o u t s i d e . A t t h e end o f 'the y e a r t h e j u d g e d e c i d e d t h a t t h i s was i n f a c t becoming c r u e l and unusual punishment. We a r e now a l l o w e d t o go o u t s i d e f o r two h o u r s a week w h i c h i s j u s t as much as t h e r e s t o f t h e p o p u l a t i o n g e t s h e r e . I t h i n k t h e c r i t i c a l t h i n g i n t e r m s of the DC J a i l and our c u r r e n t c o n d i t i o n s f o r people i n Europe t o u n d e r s t a n d i s t o what e x t e n t p r i s o n s i n t h e US r e a l l y a r e c o n c e n t r a t i o n camps and ware houses f o r p a r t i c u l a r i l y A f r i c a n - A m e r i c a n peopie , b u t c e r t a i n l y f o r o t h e r T h i r d World people as w e l l . f I a l s o j p e n d ^ j w o y e a r s i n a s e r i e s o f c o u n t y j a i l s and i n j a i l s i n o t h e r l a r g e c i t i e s t h a t a l s o had a l a r g e p e r c e n t a g e o f b l a c k p r i s o n e r s where t h e c o n d i t i o n s a r e v e r y s i m i l a r t o t h e c o n d i t i o n s i n DC J a i l : b a s i c a l l y tremendous o v e r c r o w d i n g , no e d u c a t i o n a l programs, e s s e n t i a l l y no l e g a l f a c i l i t i e s -r e s t r i c t i v e v i s i t i n g ; b a s i c a l l y h o r r i b l e , run-down c o n d i t i o n s . - J U u i I L l i i u l i - i t i s i m p o r t a n t f o r p e o p l e t o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t i n many ways i t c o r r e s p o n d s t o t h e same k i n d o f c o n d i t i o n s you see i n t h e s c h o o l systems, i n t h e s o c i a l w e l f a r e systems, i n any of t h e i n s t i t u t i o n s i n t h i s s o c i e t y w h i c h p r i m a r i l y d e a l w i t h poor p e o p l e and e s p e c i a l l y poor T h i r d W o r l d p e o p l e . For many p e o p l e , f o r many young p e o p l e f r o m the A f r i c a n American community t h a t you see coming i n h e r e , caught up i n t h e c y c l e o f p o v e r t y and unemployment and t o o o f t e n d r u g s w h i c h go a l o n g w i t h i t , i t i s l i k e g o i n g from one i n s t i t u t i o n t o t h e o t h e r -i t i s j u s t p a r t o f t h i s c y c l e , o f l i f e i n t h e US.

Q: A l m o s t a l l o f you have been h e l d i n i s o l a t i o n w h i c h seems t o be a p a r t o f t h e s p e c i a l c o u n t e r i n s u r g e n c y programme t h e s t a t e s e c u r i t y f o r c e s a r e u s i n g a g a i n s t pps i n t h e US , b u t a l s o i n t h e FRG f o r example .

: W i t h o u t e x c e p t i o n s a l l o f us i n f a c t have s p e n t l o n g p e r i o d s of t i m e i n i s o l a t i o n b e f o r e we g o t h e r e . And a g a i n i t always g e t s done under t h e g u i s e of s e c u r i t y p r e c a u t i o n s . L i k e a l o t o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t happen w i t h pps i n s i d e p r i s o n s , t h e y take t e c h n i q u e s t h a t

i n t e n t i o n a l l y use male guards; they used cameras t h a t were designed t o a l l o w t h e \ g u a r d s to watch t h e women i n the shower, t o a f f o r d no p r i v a c y i n the c e l l s , and t h e n f o r Susan Rosenberg and A l e j a n d r i n a T o r r e s t o p h y s i c a l l y abuse them - d o i n g f o r c e d r e c t a l and v a g i n a l s e a r c h e s . The s t a t e f e e l s p a r t i c u l a r l y t h r e a t e n e d when women d e c i d e

have a l s o a p a r t i c u l a r p a r t o f t h e i r p l a n d e s i g n e d t o t r y t o break down t h o s e women'pps.

Q: The US government a c t u a l l y c l a i m s t h a t i t does n o t h o l d any pps a t a l l - a l t h o u g h t h e r e a r e c u r r e n t l y a r o u n d 200 pps and pows b e i n g h e l d i n US p r i s o n s . C o u l d you e y p l a i n where t h e pps and pows come from p o l i t i c a l l y and what the trem pow r e l a t e s t o i n t h e US c o n t e x t ?

A. : I n t h e US t h e n a t i o n a l s t r u g g l e and p o l i t i c a l s t r u g g l e has developed l a r g e l y i n r e l a t i o n s h i p to n a t i o n a l movements, and by n a t i o n a l movements I mean t h e f a c t t h a t i n t h e US t h e r e have h i s t o r i c a l l y d e veloped oppressed n a t i o n s . A f r i c a n s were b r o u g h t t o t h e US as s l a v e s - t h e r e i s some f l u i d i t y now how A f r i c a n Americans c a l l t h e i r own n a t i o n a l i d e n t i t y as A f r i c a n Americans. C e r t a i n l y , t h e word " S l a c k " was used w i t h c a p i t a ! l e t t e r s , not w i t h a s m a l l "b". New A f r i c a n s a l s o t r y t o g i v e a s m a l l sense o f a t r a n s ­p o r t e d A f r i c a n p e o p l e i n the US. I t i s n o t t r u e t h a t t h e r e i s a g r e a t m e l t i n g p o t i n t h e US. There b a s i c a l l y s t i l l i s a dominant n a t i o n t h a t has l a r g e oppressed p o p u l a t i o n s where c e r t a i n i n d i v i d u a l s can advance, b u t t h e b u l k o f t h e n a t i o n s a r e k e p t u n d e r c o l o n y j o r s e m i - c o l o n i a l c o n d i t i o n s .

S i m i l a r i l y t h e r e was a N a t i v e American p o p u l a t i o n w h i c h was conquered and t h a t was l a r g e l y e r a d i c a t e d , but i t has c o n t i n u e d t o s t r u g g l e i n t h i s ^ c o u n t r y . Puerto R i c o was c l a i m e d as p a r t o f an e x p a n s i o n i s t war i n 1989 and a p p r o x i m a t e l y 40% o f the P u e r t o R i c a n p o p u l a t i o n has i m m i g r a t e d from t h e a c t u a l c o u n t r y o f P u e r t o R i c o to t h e c i t i e s o f t h e US And Mexico - the US as p a r t o f what i s c a l l e d i t s "Western e x p a n s i o n " 150 y e a r s ago t o o k t h e N o r t h e r n h a l f o f Mexico t h r o u g h a war a g a i n s t Mexico and a f o r c e d t r e a t y . There a r e some 20 m i l l i o n Mexican p e o p l e i n t h e US. So people i n t h o s e p o p u l a t i o n s haev s u f f e r f r o m d e n i a l o f b a s i c human r i g h t s , b a s i c d e m o c r a t i c r i g h t s . And i n many cases as t h e i r s t r u g g l e has d e v e l o p e d f o r b a s i c access - sometimes f o r i n s t a n c e , l i k e t h e b l a c k c i v i l r i g h t s movement, s t a r t i n g w i t h a view t o w a r d s a s s i m i l a t i o n , b u t t h r o u g h s t r u g g l e r e a l i z ­i n g t h a t t h a t r e a l l y was not g o i n g t o be won - t h o s e movements have o f t e n t a k e n t h e f o r m o f e x p l i c i t n a t i o n a l l i b e r a t i o n movements w i t h a demand f o r s e l f - d e t e r m i n a t i o n i n w h a t -v e r f o r m t h a t can be. So as p e o p l e have s t r u g g l e d a g a i n s t i n j u s t i c e and f o r a v i e w o f s e l f - d e t e r m i n a t i o n and l i b e r a t i o n , t h e y have e n c o u n t e r e d t h e s t a t e and i n e n c o u n t e r i n g t h e s t a t e people g e t a r r e s t e d and become pps. Now w i t h i n t h o s e movements, t h e r e , a t t i m e s , have d e v e l o p e d o r g a n i z a t i o n s w h i c h e x p l i c i t l y a r e t r y i n g to d e v e l o p an a b i l i t y t o wage armed s t r u g g l e . The Black L i b e r a t i o n Army (BLA) was one t h a t l a r g e l y d e v e l o p e d f r o m t h e B l a c k Panther Part;/ (BP?) when the BPP was r e p r e s s e d by t h e FBI. Some o f t h e

t h e i r s t r e n g t h t o the s t r u g g l e and s o - t h e y

\

p e o p l e i n t h e BPP f e l t the o n l y way they were g o i n g t o s u r v i v e was to form an u n d e r - i ground r e s i s t a n c e . S i m i l a r i l y w i t h i n the s t r u g g l e o f P u e r t o R i c o , c l a n d e s t i n e o r g a n i - 1

z a t i o n s have d e v e l o p e d on the i s l a n d and he r e i n s i d e t h e US. The FALN ( Fuerzas Armadas de L i b e r a c i o n N a t i o n a l ) has been most c f c a . r l y d e v e l o p e d , and i n the l a s t few years t h e M acheteros who a r e r o o t e d on t h e i s l a n d i n P u e r t o R i c o have developed. They have had s e v e r a l p e o p l e who L\&ve been a r r e s t e d and become pps i n t h e US. People f r o m t h e American I n d i a n Movement (AIM) a r e i n the p r i s o n s as pps. And t h e r e a re a l s o w h i t e N o r t h Americans such as o u r s e l v e s who have t r i e d t o b u i l d o u r a n t i - i m p e r i a l i s t r e s i s t a n c e movement and have f o u g h t i n v a r i o u s ways a g a i n s t t h e s t a t e , some as p a r t of an armed c l a n d e s t i n e r e s i s t a n c e . And t h e n t h e r e a re o t h e r w h i t e N o r t h Americans who have been involved i n m i l i t a n t , but p a s s i v e c i v i l d i s o b e d i e n c e a c t i o n s a g a i n s t the m i l i t a r y who a r e a l s o i n t h e p r i s o n s i n the US. Now, we a l l a r e o b v i o u s l y pps, but the people from t h e oppr e s s e d n a t i o n s who are waging armed s t r u g g l e c o n s i d e r themselves under i n t e r n a t i o n a l l a w t o be c a p t u r e d combatants and a r e p r i s o n e r s o f a l i b e r a t i o n s t r u g g l e r e c o g n i z e d by P r o t o c o l 2 o f t h e Geneva C o n v e n t i o n s and o t h e r i n t e r n a t i o n a l c o n v e n t i o n s . They c l a i m stafci as pows'.

Q: Do t h e US c o u r t s r e c o g n i z e t h a t s t a t u s ?

A. ..: No, t h e c o u r t s r e f u s e t o - a l t h o u g h i t has been c h a l l e n g e d many t i m e s , t h e c o u r t s i n t h e US r e f u s e t o a p p l y i n t e r n a t i o n a l s t a n d a r d s , i n c l u d i n g P u e r t o Rico as t h e c l e a r l y most r e c o g n i z e d example. The w o r l d community and t h e U n i t e d N a t i o n s r e c o g n i z e i t as a US c o l o n y , b u t t h e US c o u r t s r e f u s e t o r e c o g n i z e i t as a US c o l o n y and t h e r f o r e p e o p l e who a r e freedom f i g h t e r s from t h a t movement a r e n o t g o i n g t o be re c o g n i z e d as a n t i -c o l o n i a l freedom f i g h t e r s . I n t e r n a t i o n a l l y i n c r e a s i n g l y t h e y a r e . T h i s was made .most c l e a r when W i l l i a m Morales was c a p t u r e d i n Mexico and t h e US t r i e d to e x t r a d i t e him back t o t h e US as a c r i m i n a l . Mexico de c i d e d t h a t he was a pp i n the US, t h a t he was a c a p t u r e d c o m b a t a n t from P u e r t o R i c o , r e f u s e d t o e x t r a d i t e him t o the US and r e l e a s e d him t o Cuba where he was g i v e n p o l i t i c a l a s ylum .Another blow t o t h a t s t r a t e g y was t h e • l i b e r a t i o n o f A s s a t a Shakur. A s s a t a , a l e a d i n g member o f t h e BLA, had been c h a r a c t e r i z e d by t h e FBI and t h e media as a " b l o o d t h i r s t y cop k i l l e r " . A f t e r her l i b e r a t i o n f rom p r i s o n she was g r a n t e d p o l i t i c a l asylum i n Cuba and has s i n c e gained r e c o g n i t i o n i n t e r ­n a t i o n a l l y and i n t h e US as a r e s p e c t e d s p o k e s p e r s o n f o r t h e "Black l i b e r a t i o n s t r u g g l e .

Q: But do these movements them s e l v e s c l a i m you as t h e i r p o l i t i c a l p r i s o n e r s ?

A .: Tha t v a r i e s because a g a i n t h e r e a r e d i f f e r e n t r e a l i t i e s t h a t are g o i n g on - and t h i s

i s b o t h t h e s t r e n g t h and the weakness o f t h e pp/pow movement i n the US, but a l s o of

t h e s o c i a l s t r u g g l e i n the US i n g e n e r a l . I t h i n k t h a t t h e r e i s a very i m p l i c i t embrace-

ment o f pps i n P u e r t o R i c o , f o r example i n t h e case o f F i l i b e r t o Ojeda Rios who i s

/I u> I I I a d m i t t e d l y one o f t h e l e a d e r s o f t h e M a c h e t e r o s . He r e c e n t l y was put on t r i a l . He had b e e n - h e l d f o r s e v e r a l years on c h a r g e s i n t h e US w h i c h he n e v e r went on t r i a l f o r . He was t h e n b r o u g h t t o Puerto R i c o and put on t r i a l f o r a s h o o t - o u t when t h e FBI c a p t u r e d him i n 1985. An FBI SWAT team w i t h bazooka a u t o m a t i c weapons a t t a c k e d h i s home and he and h i s w i f e were t h e r e . He defended h i s home and h i s l i f e a g a i n s t the a t t a c k and one FBI a g e n t was wounded i n t h a t s h o o t - o u t . He went on t r i a l i n P u e r t o Rico, a d m i t t e d t h a t he had s h o t i t out w i t h the FBI and b a s i c a l l y defended h i m s e l f i n f r o n t o f a P u e r t o R i c a n j u r y . The j u r y a c q u i t t e d F i l i b e r t o o f a l l t h e charges r e l a t e d t o t h e s h o o t - o u t . The v e r d i c t c l e a r l y was n o t based on l e g a l i t i e s , i t was based on the f a c t t h a t F i l i b e r t o d i d have a r i g h t t o defend h i m s e l f . I r e c e n t l y spoke t o F i l i b e r t o and he s a i d i n a v e r y humble way t h a t he cannot w a l k t h e s t r e e t s o f San Juan w i t h o u t b e i n g s t o p p e d on e v e r y b l o c k and somebody coming up t o him - and t h e s e a r e n o t j u s t p e o p l e f r o m t h e independence movement - and s a y i n g "you r e p r e s e n t o u r c o u n t r y we s u p p o r t y o u . " I t h i n k among w h i t e N o r t h American movements t h a t has n o t been h i s t o r i c a l l y t r u e , and t h e l i n k has n o t been made, e s p e c i a l l y w i t h p e o p l e c h a r g e d w i t h o r g a n i z i n g i n armed s t r u g g l e . I t h i n k i t was a weakness as t h e s t r u g g l e d e v e l o p e d those l i n k s were not t h e r e , H e r e ' n o t o r g a n i c a l l y developed i n e a r l i e r y e a r s and so i t i s s t i l l been an o n g o i n g p r o c e s s s i n c e p e o p l e ' s c a p t u r e t o t r y and f o r g e t h e l i n k s between t h e v a r i o u s l e v e l s o f s t r u g g l e . Because c e r t a i n l y I t h i n k , the p o l i t i c a l g o a l s a r e very s h a r e d , and o f c o u r s e t h e i s o l a t i o n and c o n d i t i o n s o f c a p t u r e can make t h a t v e r y d i f f i c u l t t o do.

Q: What k i n d o f o u t s i d e s u p p o r t do pps and pows r e c e i v e a t t h i s p o i n t ?

The s u p p o r t f o r pps as i t i s i s d e f i n e d l a r g e l y by t h e c o n d i t i o n s and the s t a t e o f t h e movements we come fr o m . I w o u l d say t h a t o v e r a l l t h e r e i s n o t a w hole l o t 'of s u p p o r t , t h e r e i s n o t a l o t o f c o n c i o u s n e s s . We a r e h a v i n g t o b e g i n f r o m t h e premise o f j u s t e s t a b l i s h i n g t h e e x i s t e n c e o f pps i n t h e US f r o m t h e p o i n t of v i e w o f c o n c i u s n e s s r a i s i n g and those e f f o r t s a r e j u s t i n t h e b e g i n n i n g . There a r e some e x c e p t i o n s - t h e r e a r e some pps who a r e more w e l l - k n o w n t h a n o t h e r s - p r o b a b l y most p r o g r e s s i v e p e o p l e - i n t h e US a r e f a m i l i a r w i t h t h e case o f L e o n a r d P e l t i e r . He has p r o b a b l y more s u p p o r t and r e c o g n i t i o n t han any o t h e r pp i n t h e US, and t h a t i s p r o b a b l y t r u e i n t e r ­n a t i o n a l l y as w e l l . H i s case has some over a r c h i n g s i g n i f i c a n c e f o r the N a t i v e American movement and f o r t h e l a s t 10 years o r so i t has been b o t h a s y m b o l i c s t r u g g l e and

/>\OVCw? rvf-r a l l y i n g p o i n t f o r t h e N a t i v e American The P u e r t o Rican pps and pows have s u p p o r t w i t h i n t h e P u e r t o R i c a n independence move­ment and i t has begun t o become more broad i n t h e l a s t two o r t h r e e y e a r s . F i l i b e r t o O jeda R i o s and the comrades t h a t were a r r e s t e d as a group known as the P u e r t o Rican

/ ] 4

Independence 16 and accused members o f t h e Macheteros who a r e on t r i a l f o r the e x p r o p r i a t i o n o f t h e W e l l s Fargo T r u c k - $ 7 m i l l i o n - have become cases o f extreme i m p o r t a n c e t o t h e independence movement. I n t h e l a s t year and w i t h t h e coming of d i s c u s s i o n s a b o u t t h e s t a t u s o f t h e i s l a n d , f r o m t h e p o i n t o f v i e w o f t h e independence movement and even some o f the p r o - c o l o n y f o r c e s , the q u e s t i o n o f what w i l l happen w i t h t h e pps and pows i s v e r y much p a r t o f the d i s c u s s i o n because t h e y have been i n v o l v e d i n t h e s t r u g g e l i n g f o r t h e s t a t u s o f t h e i s l a n d .

Q: But i t seems t h a t a l o t of b l a c k pps and pows have n o t been r e c o g n i z e d by t h e b l a c k community. Does t h a t s o r t o f r e f l e c t t h e p o l i t i c a l s t a t e o f t h e b l a c k community a t t h i s p o i n t , t h a t a l o t o f B l a c k P a n t h e r s a r e s i t t i n g i n t h e j a i l s and have been t h e r e f o r many y e r a s and seem t o be f o r g o t t e n , or i s t h a t a wrong i m p r e s s i o n ?

I d o n ' t t h i n k i t i s a wrong i m p r e s s i o n . But what has t o be u n d e r s t o o d i s t h a t one o f t h e outcomes o f t h e c o u n t e r i n t e l l i g e n c e program t h a t was d e v e l o p e d i n the 60s and e a r l y 70s was, t h a t t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n a l s t r u c t u r e i n t h e B l a c k community was r e a l l y - . t a r g e t t e d f o r d e s t r u c t i o n and was somewhat s u c c e s f u l l y d e s t r o y e d . Not j u s t r e v o l u t i o n a r y o r g a n i z a t i o n s - you can go back and read FBI papers - groups l i k e " B l a c k A r c h i t e c t s " had formed and were i n f i l t r a t e d . Any k i n d o f o r g a n i z a t i o n t h a t l e d p eople's s t r u g g l e on t h e i r own t e r m s was s y s t e m a t i c a l l y t a r g e t t e d f o r d e s t r u c t i o n . And i f you d o n ' t have forms o f o r g a n i z a t i o n s you j u s t cannot r e a c h a mass o f people and you cannot even p e r p e t u a t e your own h i s t o r y v e r y e a s i l y . And t h e n , l e t ' s f a c e i t - t h e o t h e r t h i n g i s t h a t some of t h e p e o p l e who were m i l i t a n t s were c o o p t e d . A s m a l l p e r c e n t a g e , you know, t h a t was p a r t o f t h e programme t o o . You s e t up u n i v e r s i t y programmes, you g e t people m i d d l e c l a s s , some o f t h e p e r k s t h a t come w i t h s o c i a l advancements . You can d e s t r o y a movement p a r t i a l ! t h r o u g h r e p r e s s i o n and a l s o p a r t i a l l y t h r o u g h c o o p e r a t i o n . Even under Reagan you have t o l o o k a t t h e f a c t t h a t Ronald Reagan never met w i t h any o f t h e l e a d e r s o f t h e major, v e r y m a i n s t r e a m r e f o r m i s t b l a c k c i v i l r i g h t s o r g a n i z a t i o n s . I t was v e r y c l e a r t h a t t h e US government was not g o i n g t o &Mew b l a c k p e o p l e any s e l f - d i r e c t e d o r g a n i z a t i o n t h r o u g h w h i c h t h e y c o u l d s t r u g g l e . I t h i n k t h a t t h e r e w i l l be a more a c t i v e c l a i m i n g o f the people who have s t r u g g l e d i n t h a t d i r e c t i o n and t h e r e i s a base o f s u p p o r t . I j u s t t h i n k t h a t t h e r e i s much more o f a base of s u p p o r t t h a t i s i n c i p i e n t t h e r e , t h a t c o u l d be m o b i l i z e d , b u t . i t i s n o t o r g a n i z e d , i t i s n o t d i r e c t e d a t t h i s p o i n t , and t h e r e f o r e i t cannot make i t s e l f f e l t .

Q: I n t h e FRG s u p p o r t work f o r pps i s r e a l l y viewed as an i m p o r t a n t f r o n t i n the

f i g h t a g a i n s t r e p r e s s i o n and people who a r e d o i n g t h a t k i n d o f work o f t e n d e f i n e

t h e m s e l v e s as a n t i - i m p e r i a l i s t s . I s t h e r e any comparison t o t h e s u p p o r t t h a t you r e c e i v e

as w h i t e N o r t h American a n t i - i m p e r i a l i s t p r i s o n e r s ?

'. . •«: No, I don' c t h i n k t h e r e i s any c o m p a r i s o n . I t i s j u s t a t an a l t o g e t h e r d i f f e r e n t \ s t a r t i n g p o i n t . Here i n t h e US, " a n t i - i m p e r i a l i s m " i s d e f i n e d somewhat d i f f e r e n t l y t h a n i n t h e FRG. Here i t r e f e r s t o t h o s e s e c t o r s o f t h e p r o g r e s s i v e movement whi c h a n a l y z e t h e US as an i m p e r i a l i s t n a t i o n , oppose i m p e r i a l i s m as a whole s y s t e m and a c t i n s o l i d a r i t y w i t h n a t i o n a l l i b e r a t i o n movements. The a n t i - i m p e r i a l i s t movement h e r e i s v e r y s m a l l and v e r y i s o l a t e d . I w o u l d say w i t h i n h a v i n g spoken some a b o u t t h e o t h e r n a t i o n a l l i b e r a t i o n s t r u g g l e s , w i t h i n t h e dominant w h i t e l e f t t h e r e i s a v e r y low l e v e l o f c o n c i u s n e s s o f pps and pows, w e t h e r i t i s t h e pps f r o m any o f t h e n a t i o n a l l i b e r a t i o n movements o r t h e a n t i - i m p e r i a l i s t l e f t . So, one t h e y d o n ' t r e a l l y know t h a t we e x i s t . Those t h a t do know, and t h e s u p p o r t t h a t we began t o g e t t h r o u g h our t r i a l s i n t h e l a s t c o u p l e o f y e a r s , i s f a i r l y d e f i n e d a t t h e l e v e l o f b a s i c h u m a n i t a r i a n , human r i g h t s c o n c e r n s . I t i s j u s t n o t seen y e t as a s i g n i f i c a n t f r o n t o f t h e s t r u g g l e i n and o f i t s e l f . Perhaps t h a t was more t r u e i n t h e 70s when some o f t h e u r b a n r e b e l l i o n s were t a k i n g p l a c e . When George J a c k s o n whose name m i g h t be f a m i l i a r t o p e o p l e i n t h e FRG was a s s a s s i n a t e d i n a C a l i f o r n i a p r i s o n and t h e r e were a s e r i e s o f u p r i s i n g s around t h e c o u n t r y . Cfhere were numerous pps i n p r i s o n f r o m t h e s t r u g g l e s o f t h e 60s and t h e y p l a y e d a r o l e i i T t h o s e r e b e l l i o n s , and t h e r e was a much d i f f e r e n t sense about t h e p r i s o n s as a w h o l e , but some o f t h e pps as w e l l . A t t h i s p o i n t t h e r e i s r e a l l y no p e r s p e c t i v e o f the pps as b e i n g l i k e t h e f i g h t e r s or c o m b a t a n t s o f a movement and t h a t you t a k e s t e p s t o d e f e n d t h o s e p e o p l e as p a r t o f d e f e n d i n g y o u r own movement.

-. :.: I t h i n k t h a t i s something t h a t i s c h a n g i n g . U n t i l v e r y r e c e n t l y t h e r e were n o t many pe o p l e who were even d o i n g i t f o r h u m a n i t a r i a n r e a s o n s . I n f a c t what we had t h e r e was a v e r y s m a l l c o r e o f people who were t h e m s e l v e s c o m m i t t e d a n t i - i m p e r i a l i s t s who were d o i n g i t c l e a r l y , I t h i n k , f o r b a s i c p o l i t i c a l purposes i n t e r m s o f s e e i n g b o t h t h e p r i s o n e r s as v e r y i m p o r t a n t people f o r t h e movement - h a v i n g s u p p o r t e d t h e development of t h e c l a n d e s t i n e o r g a n i z a t i o n s t h e m s e l v e s - and s e e i n g i t as a form o f b e i n g a b l e t o expose and f i g h t t h e r e p r e s s i v e p a r t o f t h e s t a t e and what t h e FBI was d o i n g and b e l i e v i n g t h a t i t was i m p o r t a n t t o s t r e n g t h e n t h e movement. Even a l o t o f people who a r e i n v o l v e d i n s o c i a l movemnents i n t h e US d o n ' t u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e s t a t e respondsby r e p r e s s i o n i f c h a l l e n g e d . We have had a d i f f i c u l t t i m e even p e r p e t u a t i n g o u r own h i s t o r y and i t i s a c t i v e l y b e i n g r e w r i t t e n a l l the t i m e . People d o n ' t remember what r e a l l y happened i n t h e 60s, even i n terms o f t h e r o l e o f t h e FBI and v a r i o u s red squads. So t h a t when CISPES ( Committee i n S o l i d a r i t y w i t h t h e P e o p l e s o f E l S a l v a d o r ) which i s a C e n t r a l America a n t i - i n t e r v e n t i o n movement was t a r g e t t e d by the FBI and t h a t o p e r a t i o n was f i n a l l y exposed i n t h e 80s , people t h o u g h t i t was a new t h i n g . No, i t wasn't a new t h i n g a t a l l , i t goes back - i t was t h e p e r p e t u a t i o n o f s o m e t h i n g t h a t as t h e s o c i a l s t r u g g l e had gone down was l e s s o b v i o u s . And t h e n as people began t o r e s p o n d and t r i e d t o c h a l l e n g e US p o l i c i e s i n C e n t r a l A m e r i c a , t h e FBI resumed i t s r o l e much more a g g r e s s i v e

as a p o l i t i c a l p o l i c e f o r c e . And so I t h i n k i t i s i n f a c t o n l y i n t h e l a s t few y e a r s t h a t a r o u n d t h e c o r e o f committed a n t i - i m p e r i a l i s t s who have done t h a t work t h e r e now a r e o t h e r s s u p p o r t i n g pps.

Q: Do you t h i n k t h a t t h e broad o p p o s i t i o n a g a i n s t the HSU i n L e x i n g t o n was s o r t o f a s t a r t i n g p o i n t f o r t h e r e c o g n i t i o n o f pps by a broader p u b l i c ?

S : Yes, d e f i n i t e l y i t b a c k f i r e d on t h e US government. The US government o r t h e B ureau o f P r i s o n s never t h o u g h t t h a t t h e r e w o u l d be the k i n d o f o p p o s i t i o n t h a t ended up e m e r g i n g i n r e l a t i o n s h i p to L e x i n g t o n . They t h o u g h t t h a t t h e r e t h o r i c o f t e r r o r i s m w o u l d be enough t o s c a r e o f f any k i n d o f human r i g h t s a c t i v i t y and they m i s c a l c u l a t e d on t h a t b a s i s . A l s o i t was such an e x t r e m e and so o b v i o u s l y an e x p e r i m e n t t h a t I t h i n k c o n ­t r i b u t e d t o t h a t . And I would say t h a t s p e c i f i c a l l y the P u e r t o Rican independence move­ment had a v e r y i m p o r t a n t r o l e t o p l a y a t l e a s t i n i n i t i a t i n g t h a t o p p o s i t i o n .

O: And do you t h i n k t h e p u b l i c awareness t h a t was c r e a t e d t h r o u g h t h a t can c o n t i n u e , f o r xeample d u r i n g t h e t i m e of your t r i a l o r do you f e e l t h a t t h e campaign a g a i n s t t h e L E x i n g t o n HSU was y e t a n o t h e r one o f t h e s i n g l e i s s u e m o b i l i z a t i o n s i n t h e US ?

S •.: I t h i n k i t was mixed. S u p p o r t i n g p e o p l e , s u p p o r t i n g human r i g h t s w h i c h i s s o m e t h i n g a l o t o f p e o p l e can g e t behind - a l t h o u g h n o t enough - i s coming. The d o m i n a n t b a s i s upon

— a.<\i it's w h i c h p e o p l e o b j e c t e d t o L e x i n g t o n was t h a t t h e v d i d n ' t l i k e i s o l a t i o n wwich *o an e a s i e r

i become irwjoluta m o^poj^q T^gjt Tka.r\ ,5 hs> <,<+f>poft J-e.\fol\j.iioA&r\?s • A

Erring ,£P g j i j j j o - ^ - ^ ^ ^ did'n' t l i k e a d e m o c r a t i c c o u n t r y t o r t u r i n g i t s own d i s s i d e n t s , • which, r e a l l y was what was g o i n g on t h e r e . T h a t i s a l i t t l e b i t d i f f e r e n t t h an when y o u - a r e g o i n g on t r i a l as b e i n g an enemy of t h e s t a t e i n a v e r y s e l f - c o n c i o u s , p o l i t i c a l l y o r c h e s t r a t e d show t r i a l where t h e government has a l o t a t s t a k e i n w i n n i n g a v i c t o r y r i g h t t h e r e and t h e n . But I t h i n k i n so f a r as a c l i m a t e was c r e a t e d t h r o u g h n o t j u s t L E x i n g t o n , b u t t h r o u g h t h e a t t a c k on t h e P u e r t o Rican movement, t h r o u g h t h e a t t a c k t h a t went on a g a i n s t t h e B l a c k movements - i n New York the number o f p o l i t i c a l a t t a c k s has r e s u l t e d i n t r i a l s and t h e n t h e emergence of more pps - the emergence o f b o t h has come t o g e t h e r i n b e g i n n i n g t o change a t l e a s t m i n i m a l l y , b u t I t h i n k s i g n i f i c a n t l y , a c l i m a t e t h a t says " yes, t h e r e i s p o l i t i c a l o p p o s i t i o n , t h e r e i s r e p r e s s i o n , i t i s p o l i t i c a l , t h e r e i s a p o l i t i c a l p o l i c e , and y e s , t h e r e a r e pps". So, I t h i n k t h e r e has been a number of t h i n g s , i n c l u d i n g t h e L e x i n g t o n s t r u g g l e , t h a t went on t h a t have c r e a t e d a c l i m a t e t h a t h o p e f u l l y w i l l h e l p us as t h e s t r u g g l e i n t e n s i f i e s w h i c h u n d o u b t e d l y i t w i l l .

L One o f the s o u r c e s t h a t our s u p p o r t has come from i n t h e l a s t p e r i o d i s f r o m t h e gay and l e s b i a n movement. And I t h i n k t h a t p a r t o f t h a t i s because L i n d a and I have been o u t - l e s b i a n . a r e

have s u p p o r t e d t h e s t r u g g l e f o r women's l i b e r a t i o n v e r y much i n t h e i r p o l i t i c a l h i s t o r i e s t o o . B u t I t h i n k t h a t t h e r e i s a n o t h e r r e a s o n , w h i c h i s t h a t t h e gay and l e s b i a n move­ment i s c h a l l e n g i n g t h e government on t h e q u e s t i o n o f AIDS w h i c h i s a l i f e and d e a t h s t r u g g l e f o r p e o p l e . I t b r i n g s p e o p l e up a g a i n s t c o n t r o l o f t h e s t a t e o v e r t h e i r l i v e s a n d t h e i r b o d i e s and how they l i v e t h e i r l i v e s . The g r o w t h o f homophobia i n t h i s p e r i o d , ' t h e i n c r e a s e o f t h e a t t a c k s on gay p e o p l e , and t h e i n c r e a s e i n laws d i r e c t e d a g a i n s t gay p e o p l e i s h a v i n g an impact on p e o p l e ' s t h i n k i n g . So ACT UP, which i s t h e most m i l i t a n t ; p a r t o f t h e AIDS movement, has been e x t r e m e l y m i l i t a n t i n i t s a c t i o n s . And I t h i n k t h a t ' . when you a r e i n a c o n f r o n t a t i o n w i t h t h e s t a t e l i k e t h a t , you have l e s s q u e s t i o n s about o t h e r p e o p l e who r e s i s t . You a r e more ^=ep u n i t i n g w i t h p e o p l e a g a i n s t a common enemy, w h i c h i s a concept t h a t i s v e r y i m p o r t a n t t o us.

Q: Where do you see t h e r o l e o f pps i n t h e s l o w re-emergence o f a more g r a s s r o o t s l e v e l o f . o p p o s i t i o n w i t h i n t h e d i f f e r e n t n a t i o n a l c o m m u n i t i e s . And where do you see your own r o l e . ? How.do you t h i n k t h a t i t w i l l be p o s s i b l e t o a c h i e v e some u n i t y and t o r e l a t e t o t i c .

..struggle's on the o u t s i d e ?

S •: I t h i n k t h a t p r i s o n s i n t h e US a r e g o i n g t o become an i n c r e a s i n g f o c u s o f r e s i s t a n ­c e i n t h e US, both a t t h e human r i g h t s l e v e l and a t t h e l e v e l o f v i o l e n c e and r e s i s t a n c e and r e b e l l i o n i n s i d e t h e p r i s o n s . The p r i s o n s a r e g o i n g t o p l a y - and have h i s t o r i c a l l y p l a y e d an i m p o r t a n t r o l e f o r t h e s t a t e i n s y p h o n i n g o f f t h e most r a d i c a l , m i l i t a n t elements o f n o t even n e c e s s a r i l y the s e l f - c o n c i o u s o p p o s i t i o n , b u t p e o p l e who a r e i n r e b e l l i o n '. a g a i n s t t h e i r c o n d i t i o n s , e i t h e r as a r e s u l t o f r a c i s m o r p o v e r t y .

The s t a t e i t s e l f says t h a t i n t h e US i n l e s s t h a n 5 y e r a s f r o m now, 1 m i l l i o n people w i l l be i n p r i s o n which i s ar/enormous p e r c e n t a g e o f t h e p o p u l a t i o n . I t h i n k t h e r o l e of pps ^^^aB^ S B J^^^^^SP^ ^ j J a B B B B e f t f t ^ nji u'nn acaaptesagg ' ' ii 11 HI w i r i t in ^ r h " movements and t h e s o c i a l o p p o s i t i o n and t h e p o l i t i c a l o p p o s i t i o n t h a t d e v e l o p s . C e r t a i n l y we have t o p l a y a r o l e i n t h e p r i s o n s i t s e l f i n t r y i n g t o b u i l d u n i t y among as many p r i s o n e r s - s o c i a l and p o l i t i c a l p r i s o n e r s - i n o r d e r t o f o r g e a f r o n t o f s t r u g g l e i n s i d e t he p r i s o n s t o make t h a t r e b e l l i o n s o m e t h i n g more d i r e c t . And I t h i n k t h a t i s one o f t h e reasons why t h e government c l e a r l y w a nts t o i s o l a t e us. Beyond t h a t s p e c i f i c a l l y as pps we have a r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o keep a flame o f r e s i s t a n c e a l i v e i n t h e sense o f an i d e o l o g i c a l , p o l i t i c k p o s i t i o n . We r e p r e s e n t something t h a t has h i s t o r i c a l l y been i m p o r t a n t i n t h e l e f t . R i g h t now t h e dominant l o c a t i o n o f us i s i n p r i s o n w h i c h i s a b i g p r o b l e m . I t h i n k p r o b a b l y s i m i ­l a r t o some e a r l i e r p e r i o d s i n t h e FRG when a number o f p e o p l e where i n t h e p r i s o n s and a v o i c e t h a t needed t o be on t h e o u t s i d e was n o t t h e r e . And how w e l l we .can or we can n o t do t h a t i s g o i n g t o be d e t e r m i n e d by a number o f t h i n g s - t h e use o f i s o l a t i o n i n t h e US, t h e use o f c o n t r o l u n i t s , and t h e s t r u g g l e t h a t ahs b r o u g h t a b o u t r e c o g n i t i o n o f e n s u r i n g o f o u r d e f e n s e on human r i g h t s . I t h i n k we a r e a l l g o i n g t o push the s t r u g g l e o u r s e l v e s

Q: L e t me ask you a q u e s t i o n i n r e l a t i o n t o t h a t . In* t h e FRG , t h e p r i s o n e r s o f t h e RAF and t h e r e s i s t a n c e have been f o r y e a r s f i g h t i n g i s o l a t i o n w i t h t h e demand f o r a s s o c i a t i o n o f a l l pps . T h i s demand has a l s o t h e c e n t r a l demand o f t h e l a s t h u n g e r -s t r i k e and i t i s t h e c e n t r a l demand f o r most o f t h e s u p p o r t work on t h e o u t s i d e . Do you see pps i n t h e US, do you see y o u r s e l v e s a t a p o i n t where you w i l l demand a s s o c i a t i o n ?

i : I t h i n k i n t h e l o n g e r t e r m i t w i l l be a demand. G i v e n t h e r e a l m a t e r i a l c o n d i t i o n s i n t h i s c o u n t r y around t h e q u e s t i o n o f p p s r I d o n ' t t h i n k i t i s a demand t h a t we can y e t e s t a b l i s h . I t h i n k we a r e s t i l l a t t h e s t a g e o f i n a sense c o m b a t i n g t h e US government's c r i m i n a l i z a t i o n o f pps. We w i l l be somewhat s u c c e s f u l b u t I t h i n k i t i s a l o n g s t r u g g l e . I t i s l i k e t r y i n g t o l o o k a t t h i n g s i n s t a g e s - and one s t a g e o f i t i s t o r e a l l y a f f i r m t h a t t h e r e a r e pps i n t h e US.

... .: I know i t i s a b i g q u e s t i o n t o people i n Europe who ask " why d o n ' t you demand a s s o c i a t i o n , or why i s n ' t t h e r u n i t y " . But a g a i n we a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t a s i t u a t i o n where - t h e r e a r e p r i s o n e r s f r o m e v e r y d i f f e r e n t s t r u g g l e . S o w h i l e we have a v e r y s t r o n g b a s i s - we a r e i n the p r i s o n s t o g e t h e r - t o b u i l d u n i t y a g a i n s t t h e s t a t e , and where we have been t o g e t h e r we have done t h a t a b s o l u t e l y - we a l s o a r e r e s p o n s i b l e t o and a c c o u n t a b l e i n some ways t o d i f f e r e n t movements on t h e o u t s i d e . And you as a p r i s o n e r do n o t i m o l e m e n t y o u r own s t r a t e g y s e p a r a t e from w h a t e v e r g o a l s and d e f i n i t i o n s and s t r u g g l e s a r e o f t h e movement t h a t you a r e p a r t o f . One s p e c i f i c example i n terms o f an answer t o t h a t i s t h a t t h e P u e r t o R i c a n pows -t h e r e a r e 25 i n t h e US p r i s o n s - have r a i s e d t h e demand f o r a s s o c i a t i o n a t d i f f e r e n t p o i n . t r t o a l l be p u t i n a m i l i t a r y p r i s o n and t o be t r i e d i n a m i l i t a r y c o u r t under b a s i c a l l y what a r e t h e Geneva Accords t h a t would be a p p l i e d t o pows. And t h a t f l o w s f r o m a p o l i t i c a l p o s i t i o n o f t h e i r movement t h a t t h e y a r e c o l o n i z e d p eople and t h e r e f o r e have a r i g h t t o t h a under i n t e r n a t i o n a l l a w . They d o n ' t r a i s e t h i s demand a l l t h e t i m e , b u t t h e y r a i s e d i t a t d i f f e r e n t p o i n t s . O f c o u r s e t h e i r i s no response by t h e US government , b u t t h e r e i s a r e s p o n s e i n k e e p i n g them s e p a r a t e d f r o m one p r i s o n t o a n o t h e r . The men a r e a l l i n d i f f e r e n t p r i s o n s around the c o u n t r y , and t h e r e a r e 50 f e d e r a l p r i s o n s i n t h e US i n a l o t o f d i f f e r e n p l a c e s . I t h i n k t h a t i s one p a r t o f an answer t o t h e i s s u e o f how do we r a i s e a s s o c i a t i o n . I n t h e l a s t 5 years 22 a n t i - i m p e r i a l i s t s have e n t e r e d t h e p r i s o n s as pps. And I t h i n k we have t o make a d e t e r m i n a t i o n a b o u t what and how we want t o d e a l w i t h t h a t i s s u e and I t h i n k as M a r i l y n s a i d i t i s a p r o c e s s . My p e r s o n a l f e e l i n g i s t h a t we d i d have s m a l l g r o u p i s o l a t i o n a t L e x i n g t o n , b u t i t f u n c t i o n e d as a s s o c i a t i o n . And i t was t h e reason why we c o u l d m a i n t a i n and w i n t h e s t r u g g l e i n L e x i n g t o n . P e r s o n a l l y , I t h i n k t h a t we w i l l demand a s s o c i a t i o n , b u t how we do i t , when we do i t , on what b a s i s and f o r whom a r e a l l q u e s t i o n s t h a t we have t o s t r u g g l e o u t as t h e s t a t e i m plements I t s s t r a t e g y and as we u n d e r s t a n d t h e c o n d i t i o n s we are i n . One reason why I do f e e l t h a t we w i l l end up r a i s i n g

t h a t demand and n o t g e n e r a l p o p u l a t i o n i s because I s t r o n g l y b e l i e v e t h a t as a pp you have t o have a p o l i t i c a l s t r u g g l e w i t h the s t a t e . I t i s n o t a u t o m a t i c , t h e r e i s n o t h i n g a u t o m a t i c about m a i n t a i n i n g y o u r p o l i t i c a l s t a n d when you spend years i n b e h a v i o u r mo­d i f i c a t i o n , i s o l a t i o n , r e g i m e n t a t i o n . So t h e n t h e i s s u e o f an a c t i v e c o n f r o n t a t i o n w i t h t h e s t a t e , whi c h I t h i n k i s o u r r o l e i n s i d e t h e p r i s o n s , means t h a t t h e r e has t o be s o m e t h i n g v e r y s p e c i f i c . But because o f the e m p i r e , because o f t h e c o l o n i a l i s m , because t h e r e a r e d i f f e r e n t p r i s o n e r s f r o m d i f f e r e n t n a t i o n s , s t r u g g l e s , c l a s s e s , sexes, move­ments we have t o f i g u r e t h a t o u t . And I t h i n k t h e government i s g o i n g t o do e v e r y t h i n g i t c an t o make t h e d i a l o g u e a r o u n d t h a t i m p o s s i b l e . I r e a l l y t h i n k the f i r s t s t r u g g l e we a r e g o i n g t o have i s a b o u t even b e i n g a b l e t o have some k i n d o f communication. The c o n d i t i o n s f o r t h e s t r u g g l e f o r a s s o c i a t i o n a r e v e r y , v e r y d i f f e r e n t f r o m Europe, b o t h i n t h e c o n t e n t o f p r i s o n l i f e i t s e l f , b u t a l s o i n t e r m s o f what e x i s t s on the o u t ­s i d e t h a t can h e l p t p push f o r and o r g a n i z e f o r t h a t demand.

Q: I n t h e . r e l a t i v e s i n f o d u r i n g t h e h u n g e r s t r i k e o f t h e p r i s o n e r s o f t h e RAF and - the

r e s i s t a n c e , , t h e r e were a number o f l e t t e r s f r o m you and t h e r e were a l s o r e p o r t s on s u p p o r t . a c t i v i t i e s around t h e hs i n t h e FRG. What k i n d o f r o l e d i d you p l a y i n t h a t and how do y o u r e l a t e t o t h e o v e r a l l s t r u g g l e o f t h e p r i s o n e r s f r o m t h e RAF and t h e r e s i s t a n c e ?

.TV:: We have had a re; t i c n s h i p o f shared s t r u g g l e f o r t h e l a s t t e n y e a r s , and i n c r e a s i n g l y i n t h e l a s t 5 o r s i x y e a r s . We have t r i e d t o s t u d y t h e movement i n the FRG w h i c h i s a t an a l t o g e t h e r h i g h e r l e v e l o f development t h a n us h e r e . We have a l s o s t u d i e d t h e o r g a n i z a -armed o r g a n i z a t i o n s i n t h e FRG, because i t i s j u s t a v e r y d i f f i c u l t t h i n g t o e s t a b l i s h a g u e r i l l a f r o n t and f o r b e t t e r o r w o r s e , w i t h i t s ups and downs, t h e RAF has e x i s t e d f o r c l o s e t o 20 years i n t h e FRG and t h a t i s a s i g n i f i c a n t a c h i e v e m e n t . So, n a t u r a l l y ' w e a r e t r y i n g t o s t u d y t h a t f r o m a p o i n t o f view o f p o l i t i c a l r e v o l u t i o n a r y r e s i s t a n c e . When we came i n t o t h e p r i s o n s t h i s i n t e r e s t r e a l l y j u s t c o n t i n u e d t o grow, l a r g e l y because many o f us were i m m e d i a t e l y c o n f r o n t e d w i t h i s o l a t i o n . And t h e n a l l o f us r e c e i v e d i m m e d i a t e g e s t u r e s o f s o l i d a r i t y f r o m t h e pps i n t h e FRG and i t j u s t r e a f f i r m e d a bond w h i c h we f e l t a t a more a b s t r a c t l e v e l f o r a p e r i o d o f t i m e . They and t h e i r a t t o r n e y s i n v i t e d o ur a t t o r n e y s t o come t o t h e FRG and t h e r e has been a c o n s t a n t exchange

s i n c e 1984 a b o u t u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h e means o f r e p r e s s i o n and the means of f i g h t i n g t h a t . And we have b e n e f i t t e d t r e m e n d o u s l y from o u r r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h t h e pps

i n t he FRG, b o t h i n t e r m s o f c o n c r e t e s u g g e s t i o n s and i d e a s about how t o combat i s o l a t i o n on an i n d i v i d u a l l e v e l , and a l s o more r e c e n t l y , we have been

l e a r n i n g a l o t from them a b o u t t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f and t h e i n t e g r i t y o f the movement and s t r u ­g g l e f o r t h e pps w i t h i n t h e a n t i - i m p e r i a l i s t movement as a w h o l e .

So, I j u s t want t o p r e f a c e t h e i s s u e o f t h e hs w i t h s a y i n g t h a t t h e r e had been a pre.-'

e x i s t i n g and very s o l i d r e l a t i o n s h i p . So, when we heard a b o u t t h e hs being c a l l e d , t o us i t

w a s n ' t j u s t an o c c a s i o n t o send a n i c e s o l i d a r i t y message. We f e l t t h a t t h e most i m p o r t a n t h i n g t h a t we c o u l d do would be t o t r y and b r e a k t h r o u g h t h e media blockade t h a t e x i s t e d a r o u n d t h e hs, and we t h o u g h t t h a t we c o u l d t r y and m o b i l i z e some s u p p o r t a c t i v i t y o f p o l t i c a l p r i s o n e r s i n t h e US. As i t happened , a t t h e same t i m e t h e r e was a l s 6 a s i g n i f i c a n t hs g o i n g on i n S o u t h A f r i c a o f p o l i t i c a l d e t a i n e e s who were on s t r i k e a g a i n s t p r e v e n t i v e d e t e n t i o n which i s a l s o an i s s u e h e r e , i t i s a l s o an i s s u e f o r us i n t h i s case. The s t r u g g l e a g a i n s t a p a r t h e i d and US s u p p o r t f o r a p a r t h e i d i n s o l i d a r i t y w i t h the S o u t h e r n A f r i c a n n a t i o n a l l i b e r a t i o n movements has been e x t r e m e l y f o r m a t i v e to o u r e x p e r i e n c e . We c o u l d n ' t do one and n o t do t h e o t h e r . T h e r e was j u s t s o r t o f a coalescence o f i s s u e s and e v e n t s t h a t demanded a r e s p o n s e and we s e n t o u t a c a l l f o r s o l i d a r i t y t o the o t h e r pps - I d o n ' t t h i n k , t h a t such a t h i n g has q u i t e e v e r been done on t h a t l e v e l and we d i d n ' t know what t o e x p e c t . We c a l l e d f o r a one day s o l i d a r i t y f a s t , and on t h e day t h a t i t ha

i t t u r n e d o u t t h a t c l o s e t o 600 p r i s o n e r s p a r t i c i p a t e d f r o m around t h e . c o u n t r y .

Q: B o t h s o c i a l and p o l i t i c a l p r i s o n e r s ?

: I would say t h e m a j o r i t y was s o c i a l p r i s o n e r s . I t h i n k d o m i n a n t l y t h e s o c i a l p r i s o n e r s were r e s p o n d i n g t o S o u t h A f r i c a and we u n d e r s t o o d , t h a t t h a t would be t h e c a s e i n i t i a l l y , but because t h e r e were a l s o comrades, P u e r t o R i c a n pows, and some o t h e r a n t i -i m p e r i a l i s t p r i s o n e r s who were o r g a n i z i n g and l e a d i n g t h e e f f o r t s t h e r e , we know t h a t t h e y d i d a l o t o f e d u c a t i o n a l work a b o u t t h e FRG and a b o u t t h e RAF p r i s o n e r s and about i s o l a t i o n . And so w h i l e South A f r i c a may have been t h e s t a r t i n g p o i n t f o r amny p r i s o n e r s ' i n t h e end o f i t , p e o p l e knew who t h e RAF was and what t h e hs was about.

Q: Do you f e e l t h a t t h i s was a l s o a s t a r t i n g p o i n t t o r a i s e t h e l e v e l o f conciousness and a c t i v i t i e s i n s i d e US p r i s o n s ?

. .: A b s o l u t e l y , t h a t was so i m p o r t a n t a b o u t i t . I t d i d i n i t i a t e a number o f a c t i o n s o f s e l f - d e t e r m i n e d a c t i v i t y by p r i s o n e r s t h e m s e l v e s , e s p e c i a l l y p r i s o n e r s on death row. So t h e i m p o r t a n t p a r t was p r i s o n e r s a c t i n g t o g e t h e r and I d o n ' t t h i n k i t ever q u i t e happened t h i s way, a t l e a s t n o t s i n c e t h e e a r l y 70s , b u t c e r t a i n l y not around i s s u e s o f i n t e r n a t i o n a l s o l i d a r i t y .

Q: And i t seems t o have r e l a t e d t o a c t i v i t i e s on t h e s t r e e t s as w e l l . We saw some p i c t u r e s o f a d e m o n s t r a t i o n i n New York C i t y .

.: T h e r e were s m a l l d e m o n s t r a t i o n s . T h ere was a c o n f r o n t a t i o n a t the FRG c o n s u l a t e i n NYC where people demanded t o see t h e West-German ambassador and got t o see one of t h e p r e s s f l a k e s who i n s i s t e d t h a t he had no k n o w l e d g e o f any hs i n t h e FRG. But we made some b r e a k ­t h r o u g h s i n t h e m e d i a , some i n t h e l e f t p r e s s , b u t m o s t l y i n t h e i n t e r n a t i o n a l p r e s s .