Multiple DocumentsPart Description1 12 pages2 Exhibit 1 - Lue Alice Abercrombie3 Exhibit 2 - Victoria Banks4 Exhibit 3 - Sandra Beatty5 Exhibit 4 - Josue Berduo6 Exhibit 5- Charlotte Boyd-Malette7 Exhibit 6 - Carnell Brown8 Exhibit 8 - Doris Burke9 Exhibit 9 - Marc Burris10 Exhibit 10 - Emma Carr11 Exhibit 11 - Jason Chislom12 Exhibit 13 - Nadia Cohen13 Exhibit 14 - Carolyn Coleman14 Exhibit 15 - Helen Compton15 Exhibit 16 - Kate Cosner16 Exhibit 17 - Terrilin Cunningham17 Exhibit 20 - Allison Deters18 Exhibit 21 - Michael Gary Dickerson19 Exhibit 22 - Cherise Dill20 Exhibit 23 - Louis Duke21 Exhibit 24 - Sherry Durant22 Exhibit 25 - Hakeem Dykes23 Exhibit 26 - Alexander Ealy24 Exhibit 27 - Armenta Eaton25 Exhibit 29 - Gwendolyn Farrington26 Exhibit 30 - Kelvin Fisher27 Exhibit 31 - Ted Fitzgerald28 Exhibit 32 - Lynnette Garth29 Exhibit 33 - Elizabeth Gignac30 Exhibit 34 - Anna-Patrice Harris31 Exhibit 35 - Bishop Lonnie Gene Hatley32 Exhibit 36 - Rev. Jimmie Hawkins33 Exhibit 37 - Jorgen Jensen34 Exhibit 38 - Carlton Augustus Jordan, Jr.35 Exhibit 40 - Paul Kearns36 Exhibit 42 - William Kittrell37 Exhibit 44 - Brian LiVecchi38 Exhibit 45 - Nancy Lund39 Exhibit 46 - Quisha Mallette
LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF NORTH CAROLINA et al v. STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA et al, Docket No. 1:13-cv-00660
© 2015 The Bureau of National Affairs, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Terms of Service // PAGE 1
40 Exhibit 47 - James Manley41 Exhibit 48 - George McCue42 Exhibit 49 - Bryan McGowan43 Exhibit 51 - Rev. John Mendez44 Exhibit 52 - Brian Miller45 Exhibit 53 - Becky Mock46 Exhibit 54 - Gregory Moss47 Exhibit 56 - Maria Palmer48 Exhibit 57 - Yolanda Paylor49 Exhibit 58 - Mary Perry50 Exhibit 59 - Tawanda Pitt51 Exhibit 60 - Marcia Pleasant52 Exhibit 61 - Cherie Poucher53 Exhibit 62 - Candi Rhinehart54 Exhibit 63 - Dean Roberts55 Exhibit 64 - Susan Schaffer56 Exhibit 66 - Gary Sims57 Exhibit 67 - Brandi Smith58 Exhibit 69 - Gerrick Suggs59 Exhibit 70 - Kelly Thomas60 Exhibit 71 - Marshall Tutor61 Exhibit 72 - Lynne Vernon-Feagans62 Exhibit 73 - Lynne Walter63 Exhibit 74 - Bessie Ward64 Exhibit 75 - Timothy Washington65 Exhibit 76 - Yvonne Washington66 Exhibit 78- Barbara Webb67 Exhibit 79 - Ebony West68 Exhibit 80 - Stephanie Williams69 Exhibit 81 - Malcolm Wilson
LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF NORTH CAROLINA et al v. STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA et al, Docket No. 1:13-cv-00660
© 2015 The Bureau of National Affairs, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Terms of Service // PAGE 2
·1· · · · · ·IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT· · · · · FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA·2
·3· ·NORTH CAROLINA STATE CONFERENCE· · ·)· · ·OF THE NAACP, et al,· · · · · · · · )·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · Plaintiffs,· · · · · · · )·5· · · ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· ·1:13CV658· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)·6· ·PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his· · · ·)· · ·official capacity as Governor of· · )·7· ·North Carolina, et al.,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)·8· · · · · · · Defendants.· · · · · · · )· · ·____________________________________)·9· · ·LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF· · · · · ·)10· ·NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)11· · · · · · · ·Plaintiffs,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)12· · ·and· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)13· ·LOUIS M. DUKE, et al.,· · · · · · · )· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)14· · · · · · ·Plaintiffs-Intervenors,· ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)15· · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· ·1:13CV660· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)16· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · ·THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al. )17· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · ·Defendants.· · · · · · · ·)18· ·____________________________________)
19· ·UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,· · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)20· · · · · · ·Plaintiff,· · · · · · · · )· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)21· · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· ·1:13CV861· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)22· ·THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)23· · · · · · ·Defendants.· · · · · · · ·)· · ·____________________________________)24
25
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 1 of 26
Page 2·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·VOLUME 1
·2· · · · ·DEPOSITION OF MARIA TERESA UNGER PALMER
·3· · · · · · · · · ·(Taken by Defendants)
·4· · · · · · · ·Chapel Hill, North Carolina
·5· · · · · · · · · · · March 13, 2015
·6
·7
·8
·9
10· ·Reported by:· Lynn A. Ruggiro,
· · · · · · · · · ·Court Reporter
11· · · · · · · · ·Notary Public
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Page 3·1· · · · · · · · · APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL:·2· ·Counsel for NAACP Plaintiffs:·3· · · · · ·Christopher J. Maner, Esquire· · · · · · ·Madelyn A. Morris, Esquire·4· · · · · ·KIRKLAND & ELLIS, LLP· · · · · · ·655 Fifteenth Street, N.W.·5· · · · · ·Washington D.C.· 20005· · · · · · ·(202) 879-5218·6· · · · · ·[email protected]· · · · · · ·[email protected]·7·8· · · · · ·Denise Lieberman, Esquire· · · · · · ·Advancement Project·9· · · · · ·Suite 850· · · · · · ·1220 LL Street N.W.10· · · · · ·Washington D.C.· 20005· · · · · · ·(314) 780-183311· · · · · ·[email protected]· · · · · ·Penda D. Hair, Esquire (via telephone)· · · · · · ·Jasmine Richardson, Esquire (via telephone)13· · · · · ·ADVANCEMENT PROJECT· · · · · · ·Suite 85014· · · · · ·1220 LL Street N.W.· · · · · · ·Washington D.C.· 2000515· · · · · ·[email protected]· · · · · · ·[email protected]· ·Counsel for United States of America:18· · · · · ·Judybeth Greene, Esquire· · · · · · ·U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE19· · · · · ·Civil Rights Division· · · · · · ·950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW20· · · · · ·Washington, D.C.· 20530· · · · · · ·(202) 616-235021· · · · · ·[email protected]
Page 4·1· ·Counsel for the Defendants State Board of Elections:
·2· · · · · ·Michael D. McKnight, Esquire
· · · · · · ·OGLETREE, DEAKINS, NASH, SMOAK & STEWART, P.C.
·3· · · · · ·4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 1100
· · · · · · ·Raleigh, North Carolina· 27609
·4· · · · · ·(919) 787-9700
· · · · · · ·[email protected]
·5
·6
·7· · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF MARIA TERESA UNGER PALMER, taken by
·8· ·the Defendants, at the Law Offices of TIN, FULTER, WALKER &
·9· ·OWEN, 312 West Franklin Street, Chapel Hill, North Carolina,
10· ·on the 13th day of March, 2015 at 9:37 a.m. before Lynn A.
11· ·Ruggiro, Notary Public and Shorthand Reporter.
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Page 5·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·CONTENTS
·2· ·THE WITNESS: Maria Teresa Unger Palmer· · · EXAMINATION
·3· · · ·BY: Mr. McKnight· · · · · · · · · · · · · · 6
·4· · · ·BY: Mr. Maner· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 93
·5
·6
·7· · · · · · · · · · INDEX OF EXHIBITS
·8· ·EXHIBIT· · · · · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · PAGE
·9· ·Exhibit 8· · ·Plaintiffs' Responses & Objections
10· · · · · · · · ·to Defendants' First Set of
11· · · · · · · · ·Interrogatories· · · · · · · · · · · · 13
12· ·Exhibit 9· · ·Maria Unger Palmer's Driver's License
13· · · · · · · · ·and Voter Identification Card· · · · · 70
14· ·Exhibit 10· · Declaration of Maria Teresa Unger
15· · · · · · · · ·Palmer· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·83
16· ·Exhibit 11· · WCHL Commentary· · · · · · · · · · · · 92
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Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 2 of 26
Page 6·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·PROCEEDINGS
·2· · · · · · · · MARIA TERESA UNGER PALMER,
·3· ·having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
·4· · ·EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANTS
·5· · · BY MR. McKNIGHT:
·6· · · · Q.· ·Good morning, Ms. Palmer.· We met a moment
·7· ·ago.· My name is Michael McKnight and I represent
·8· ·the State Board of Elections, Defendants in this
·9· ·matter along with the North Carolina Attorney
10· ·General's Office, and we're here today to take your
11· ·deposition in a lawsuit known as the North Carolina
12· ·State Conference of the NAACP versus McCrory.· And
13· ·that suit is pending in Federal Court in the Middle
14· ·District of North Carolina.
15· · · · · · ·And at this time, I'll let the counsel for
16· ·the Plaintiffs who are here and here by telephone
17· ·introduce themselves.
18· · · · · · ·MS. LIEBERMAN:· Good morning, my name is
19· ·Denise Lieberman with Advancement Project here on
20· ·behalf of the North Carolina State Conference of the
21· ·NAACP.
22· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Chris Maner with Kirkland and
23· · · · Ellis on behalf of the witness, Maria Palmer.
24· · · · · · ·MS. GREENE: Judybeth Greene on behalf of
25· · · · the United States Department of Justice on
Page 7·1· · · · behalf of the United States.
·2· · · · · · ·MS. MORRIS: Madelyn Morris, Kirkland and
·3· · · · Ellis, on behalf of the NAACP plaintiffs.
·4· · · · · · ·MR. LIEBERMAN:· On the phone?
·5· · · · · · ·MS. HAIR: Hi, this is Penda Hair with
·6· · · · Advancement Project on behalf of the North
·7· · · · Carolina NAACP at this number.
·8· · · · · · ·MS. RICHARDSON: This is Jasmine Richardson
·9· · · · from Advancement Project on behalf of the North
10· · · · Carolina NAACP.
11· ·BY MR. McKNIGHT:
12· · · · Q.· ·All right, thank you everybody.
13· · · · · · ·Ms. Palmer, we're here today to take your
14· ·deposition because you're named as a plaintiff in
15· ·the lawsuit that challenges a law that was passed in
16· ·2013 that is referred to in this lawsuit as House
17· ·Bill 589.· Are you familiar with that law?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes, I am.
19· · · · Q.· ·And so if I mention House Bill 589 during
20· ·the course of our conversation today, will you know
21· ·what I'm referring to?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes, I will, I do.
23· · · · Q.· ·And have you ever had your deposition
24· ·taken before?
25· · · · A.· ·Yes.
Page 8·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And in what context?
·2· · · · A.· ·As best I can remember, it was a complaint
·3· ·or -- a lawsuit against Bluefield State College in
·4· ·Bluefield, West Virginia and the -- I filed a
·5· ·complaint with the state because the college did not
·6· ·offer me a position after my six months probationary
·7· ·period and I -- the state found that I had been
·8· ·discriminated against and provided an attorney for
·9· ·me, and the college took my sworn testimony as to
10· ·what had happened.
11· · · · Q.· ·So you were a plaintiff in that case?
12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that was in West Virginia you
14· ·said?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what was the outcome of that
17· ·case, was it settled or was there a judgment entered
18· ·at some point?
19· · · · A.· ·There was a judgment in my favor.
20· · · · Q.· ·And was that in state or federal court in
21· ·West virginia, if you remember?
22· · · · A.· ·It would be the equivalent here of an
23· ·administrative court, I would think.
24· · · · Q.· ·I see.
25· · · · A.· ·Because it was the state against the
Page 9·1· ·state.
·2· · · · Q.· ·I see.· So the bottom line is you
·3· ·understand what goes on in a deposition then and you
·4· ·understand that you have an obligation to testify
·5· ·truthfully today?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes, I've translated for many depositions.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Terrific.· Terrific.· So is there any
·8· ·reason why you cannot testify truthfully today?
·9· · · · A.· ·No.
10· · · · Q.· ·Good.· And so the other thing I would ask
11· ·is that if you don't hear or understand one of my
12· ·questions, will you ask me to repeat it?
13· · · · A.· ·Absolutely.
14· · · · Q.· ·And I'll assume too that if you don't ask
15· ·me to repeat one of my questions, that you
16· ·understand it.· Is that fair?
17· · · · A.· ·That's fair.
18· · · · Q.· ·And we can certainly take a break at any
19· ·time if you need to in today's conversation, but I
20· ·would ask that if I have a question pending that you
21· ·answer that question before we take a break.· Is
22· ·that fair?
23· · · · A.· ·That's fair.
24· · · · Q.· ·Did you do anything to prepare for this
25· ·deposition today?
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 3 of 26
Page 10·1· · · · A.· ·I read all the literature that I have.
·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And was any of that literature used
·3· ·by you to refresh your recollection as to any of the
·4· ·facts in this case?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And specifically can you name any
·7· ·of the pieces of literature that you reviewed?
·8· · · · A.· ·I don't know if I can discuss them because
·9· ·some of it is communication with my lawyers.
10· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· You can answer with respect to
11· · · · the documents that you looked at.
12· · · · A.· ·Okay.· It was -- there's a thing called
13· ·Interrogatory and I reread that.· I reread the bill,
14· ·I reread the -- the information that we have put out
15· ·about why we are filing this lawsuit.· I want to say
16· ·PR but it's not PR but it's more like press
17· ·releases.
18· · · · Q.· ·And you say "we" who's we?
19· · · · A.· ·The NAACP.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Anything else that you can recall?
21· · · · A.· ·Not really, that I have read, no.
22· · · · Q.· ·And besides your attorney, did you speak
23· ·with anyone about this deposition today?
24· · · · A.· ·Only to say that I'm coming, my husband
25· ·and my daughter know I'm here.
Page 11·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And we discussed a moment ago that
·2· ·you had been a plaintiff in a lawsuit against, I
·3· ·think Bluefield State College in West Virginia; is
·4· ·that right?
·5· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Have you been a party to any other
·7· ·lawsuits other than that lawsuit?
·8· · · · A.· ·I don't know if you're counting like being
·9· ·a guardian ad litem, is that.....
10· · · · Q.· ·No, I mean is that something that you've
11· ·done frequently?
12· · · · A.· ·No, a couple of times.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
14· · · · A.· ·I have been a character witness because I
15· ·was a pastor.
16· · · · Q.· ·I see.
17· · · · A.· ·For several -- for many years actually
18· ·and, you know, custody issues, a couple of criminal
19· ·cases where one of the people involved were members
20· ·of my church or of the community here.
21· · · · Q.· ·But you weren't a party in any of those
22· ·cases, were you?
23· · · · A.· ·No.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you've never been convicted of
25· ·any crime of any type or anything like that?
Page 12·1· · · · A.· ·The Moral Monday that was dismissed, the
·2· ·trespassing.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you were arrested as part of the
·4· ·Moral Monday protest?
·5· · · · A.· ·Right, I was with the first group and we
·6· ·were convicted and then that was -- I don't know
·7· ·what it's called when they found that, because of
·8· ·what the Supreme Court ruled on another case, they
·9· ·came back and threw out all of those cases.
10· · · · Q.· ·I see.· I understand what you're saying.
11· · · · A.· ·Okay.
12· · · · Q.· ·That's good enough.· Do you know when that
13· ·arrest occurred?
14· · · · A.· ·Wow, time goes faster than it seems like,
15· ·we're in 2015, I think that was 2013, right?· Moral
16· ·Monday started two years ago in, I'm pretty sure
17· ·July.· Well, we were arrested in May and it was this
18· ·summer, so 2014 we were convicted.· So yes, it took
19· ·about a year for all the charges and everything and
20· ·we were cleared in 2014, convicted and cleared in
21· ·2014.
22· · · · Q.· ·So you thought -- you think you were
23· ·arrested in 2013 some time?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes, because it took a long time to get
25· ·back to court.· We went back like three times at
Page 13·1· ·least and it kept getting postponed.
·2· · · · Q.· ·Were you arrested at the General Assembly
·3· ·Building in Raleigh?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I'm going to hand you then the
·6· ·first document I want to talk with you about today
·7· ·and I'm going to mark it as NAACP Exhibit 8, and I'm
·8· ·going to give you a copy here and certainly copies
·9· ·to your counsel.
10· · · · · · ·(EXHIBIT NUMBER NAACP 8 WAS MARKED FOR
11· ·IDENTIFICATION.)
12· · · · Q.· ·And the reason why, Ms. Palmer, this is
13· ·marked as Exhibit 8 is that we've had some
14· ·depositions in this case yesterday that had Exhibits
15· ·1 through 7 and we're just numbering them
16· ·consecutively.
17· · · · A.· ·Okay.
18· · · · Q.· ·So we're not hiding anything from you or
19· ·anything like that, that's just -- they were just
20· ·depo -- exhibits rather that we used in depositions
21· ·earlier in the case.
22· · · · A.· ·Sure.
23· · · · Q.· ·So the first Interrogatory response I want
24· ·to direct your attention to is just Interrogatory
25· ·Number 1, and I believe that you said that you had
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 4 of 26
Page 14·1· ·reviewed these Interrogatory responses before the
·2· ·deposition today; is that correct?
·3· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And did you provide the responses to each
·5· ·of these Interrogatories?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes, I did.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And I see here in response to
·8· ·Interrogatory 1 you responded that your full legal
·9· ·name is Maria Teresa Unger Palmer; is that correct?
10· · · · A.· ·That's correct.· I don't see a number one
11· ·but it is correct, that that's my name.
12· · · · Q.· ·Oh, I think --
13· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Sorry, what page are we on,
14· · · · Michael?
15· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Well, there's no page
16· · · · numbers but I'm looking at Interrogatory Number
17· · · · 1.
18· · · · A.· ·Oh, okay.· I've got that.· Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
20· · · · A.· ·Definitely.
21· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So that is your correct name?
22· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is this your correct address,
24· ·303 Forbush Mountain Drive, Chapel Hill?
25· · · · A.· ·Yes, that's correct.
Page 15·1· · · · Q.· ·How long have you lived at that address?
·2· · · · A.· ·Eighteen years, almost eighteen and a half
·3· ·years.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And have you been registered to vote at
·5· ·that address the whole time you've been registered
·6· ·to vote?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·9· · · · A.· ·Well, I was registered to vote before then
10· ·too.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Well, that's a bad question.
12· · · · · · ·Have you been registered to vote the whole
13· ·time you lived at that address?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes, I have.
15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Thank you.
16· · · · · · ·And before that address, what other places
17· ·have you lived?
18· · · · A.· ·How far back?
19· · · · Q.· ·Well, I know you were born in Peru, for
20· ·example.
21· · · · A.· ·That's right.
22· · · · Q.· ·And then I think did you -- you moved to
23· ·Alabama?
24· · · · A.· ·Okay, starting backward -- starting from
25· ·here.
Page 16·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·2· · · · A.· ·West Virginia.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·4· · · · A.· ·I worked in Virginia and lived in West
·5· ·Virginia, before that Kentucky.· We were eight years
·6· ·where I did graduate school and pastored a church
·7· ·and worked for the University of Louisville.· Before
·8· ·that, we actually lived in a whole bunch of places
·9· ·because we worked with migrant farm workers.· My
10· ·husband and I were doing ministry, so we moved about
11· ·14 times, but mostly in the states of Virginia and
12· ·Kentucky and we lived one summer in Arizona working
13· ·over there.· But before that, college in
14· ·Jacksonville, Alabama.· Seems like I'm skipping some
15· ·state but I'm trying -- no, I think that's the big
16· ·chunks.
17· · · · Q.· ·That's good enough.
18· · · · A.· ·Okay.
19· · · · Q.· ·Now, in those states that you listed, in
20· ·any of those states, did you engage in any kind of
21· ·voter registration or voter education efforts?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes, I did.· It started in Kentucky.
23· ·Well, actually in Alabama, I was not a citizen, but
24· ·I got caught up in all of the politics because I was
25· ·in college and I was a reporter for the newspaper,
Page 17·1· ·so I would report on political activities, but I
·2· ·wasn't engaged in the sense of -- I remember one
·3· ·time I went to report on the Young Republicans in
·4· ·college and they asked me if I could sit for the
·5· ·picture so it looked like they had more members and
·6· ·I've regretted that ever since.· But, you know, I
·7· ·was at all the rallies and people would say you're
·8· ·here because you care about the issue and yes and
·9· ·every -- I was a non partisan observer.
10· · · · · · ·Then I moved, I got married, I moved to --
11· ·I started doing ministry and I saw the impact of
12· ·political decisions on the lives of people and I
13· ·started to get involved.· And that's part of the
14· ·reason I became a citizen.· So I would say I started
15· ·to get involved in about 1980, '81 about 20, 21
16· ·years old, finishing college.
17· · · · Q.· ·And so you got started then and you're
18· ·referring to getting started with voter engagement,
19· ·voter registration and then is it general politics
20· ·too or how would you describe what you're talking
21· ·about?
22· · · · A.· ·Attending debates, I did do some studying
23· ·of the issues and questioning candidates.· I was in
24· ·seminary in Louisville, very interested in the
25· ·immigration reform at that time.· Romano Mazzoli was
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 5 of 26
Page 18·1· ·running for Congress, he was promising immigration
·2· ·reform.· So I would say advocacy, I would say yes,
·3· ·voter registration of seminary students, college
·4· ·students.· I did some campaigning for Walter
·5· ·Mondale, that kind of thing.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And so I think you said it started in
·7· ·Kentucky really.
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And then what other states other than
10· ·North Carolina have you engaged in those activities?
11· · · · A.· ·More in local politics, so for example, in
12· ·West Virginia, there were -- just attending
13· ·information meetings, supporting, you know, the
14· ·League of Women Voters debates.· I worked for six
15· ·months at Bluefield State College trying to get the
16· ·students to organize some information on voter
17· ·registration sessions, that kind of thing.
18· · · · Q.· ·I see.· And did you say that you thought
19· ·the year you started these things was in 1980?
20· · · · A.· ·Right.· No, I moved to Kentucky in '83.
21· ·It was closer -- in 1980, it was -- I was still in
22· ·Alabama and just getting -- I was reporting on
23· ·things.· It was -- it was 1983, '84.· Sorry.· Giving
24· ·myself more credit.
25· · · · Q.· ·That's all right.
Page 19·1· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
·2· · · · Q.· ·Well, the next Interrogatory --
·3· · · · A.· ·I think the big election that I got more
·4· ·involved in was '84, yeah, with voter registration
·5· ·and all that.
·6· · · · Q.· ·I see.· Where were you, just out of
·7· ·curiosity, in '84?
·8· · · · A.· ·Kentucky, Louisville, Louisville,
·9· ·Kentucky.
10· · · · Q.· ·The next Interrogatory I'm going to ask
11· ·you about is Interrogatory 5 and it's down the list
12· ·here.
13· · · · A.· ·Okay.
14· · · · Q.· ·It's at the top of a page.
15· · · · A.· ·Okay.
16· · · · Q.· ·And this Interrogatory just asks you to
17· ·describe any problems you have encountered while
18· ·attempting to vote in any North Carolina election.
19· ·And I know that these Interrogatories were submitted
20· ·some time in early 2014.
21· · · · A.· ·Right.
22· · · · Q.· ·So I want to -- part of my purpose in
23· ·asking you these questions today, these
24· ·Interrogatories, is to make sure these answers are
25· ·still accurate as we sit here today --
Page 20·1· · · · A.· ·Sure.
·2· · · · Q.· ·-- in 2015.· So with respect to this
·3· ·question about whether you had encountered any
·4· ·problems in any North Carolina election, you stated
·5· ·that you had not encountered any problems
·6· ·personally.· Is that still true today?
·7· · · · A.· ·That's true, still true today.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And you also said though that you had
·9· ·witnessed voters who had encountered problems while
10· ·attempting to vote.· And can you tell me about what
11· ·sorts of problems you've witnessed?
12· · · · A.· ·Well, the 2014 election, that was very
13· ·disappointing to see how many people got turned
14· ·away.· I helped give information at the little
15· ·tables in front of, you know, the poling places for
16· ·the Democratic Party and so a lot of people that
17· ·expected to be able to register and vote who came to
18· ·early voting and were told, no, we're sorry.· And
19· ·they were convinced that no, I read in the newspaper
20· ·that the Court said we could still do it.· No, but
21· ·there was another decision and they were pretty mad,
22· ·including my son, and I couldn't believe I had been
23· ·doing, you know, voter registration and all these
24· ·things and hadn't asked my son.· He was living in
25· ·the mountains and graduated from college earlier and
Page 21·1· ·he had been registered in Boone, in Watauga County
·2· ·and then wasn't living there anymore, and he said,
·3· ·"Mom, I can't vote."
·4· · · · · · ·Anyway, I saw -- I met quite a few people
·5· ·who were turned away.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And other than the people that you met who
·7· ·were turned away this year, I'm sorry, not this year
·8· ·but in the 2014 election.
·9· · · · A.· ·Okay.
10· · · · Q.· ·And you're thinking of people who were
11· ·turned away during the 2014 general election in
12· ·November; is that correct?
13· · · · A.· ·Those people I'm talking about, yes. I
14· ·think what my answer referred to were people who had
15· ·had problems, for example, their name was not in
16· ·there and they were given a provisional ballot or
17· ·that kind of thing.· Before 2014, I had never seen
18· ·somebody who was told we absolutely won't take your
19· ·vote, but I had met people who had encountered
20· ·problems and I thought that was -- I'm sure that's
21· ·the question I was answering to.· This election,
22· ·2014, I did see people being turned away and told
23· ·you cannot vote.
24· · · · Q.· ·And you mentioned something a moment ago
25· ·about someone's name not being there, words to that
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 6 of 26
Page 22·1· ·effect.
·2· · · · A.· ·Right.
·3· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean by that?
·4· · · · A.· ·You know, when you go to vote, they ask
·5· ·you your name and your address and you tell them and
·6· ·they look you up in a book and they write a number
·7· ·and put it on a ballot and give it to you and then
·8· ·you give that.· So I have taken many people to the
·9· ·poles, including many people who have limited
10· ·English, so I explain what's going to happen.· Then
11· ·they come out and say they couldn't find my name in
12· ·the book, and I'll go in with them and the person
13· ·will explain, "Well, you know, we can give him a
14· ·provisional ballot."· This happened to a person I
15· ·know in this last election and they couldn't give
16· ·him a provisional ballot, but in times before, it
17· ·was fair very simple because you -- because many of
18· ·the people who I was giving rides to, I had
19· ·registered, you know.· There were people that when I
20· ·had gone canvassing to register new voters, I had
21· ·left my phone number saying if you need
22· ·transportation to the poles, give me a call.· So I
23· ·knew they were registered.· So they would say well,
24· ·he can have a provisional ballot or she can have a
25· ·provisional ballot.· In 2014, those people had to
Page 23·1· ·try to figure out what had gone wrong and what was
·2· ·the right precinct.· In the case of the person I'm
·3· ·thinking of, of William, they said well, we think
·4· ·that maybe it's not Binkley Church where he has to
·5· ·vote, we think that it's Church of Rec on Elliott
·6· ·Road, so he should go over there and try to vote
·7· ·over there, see if his name is there.
·8· · · · · · ·So somebody, a volunteer from the church
·9· ·took him and I don't know if he got to vote.· But in
10· ·this -- in this question that was asking about
11· ·before the elections, I am sure that I was thinking
12· ·when I answered that Interrogatory, I was thinking
13· ·of people, you know, who got provisional ballots or
14· ·who were told are you sure you registered?· You
15· ·know, what address did you put or something or have
16· ·you moved, you know, that kind of thing.
17· · · · Q.· ·But all of the problems you were thinking
18· ·about that you had witnessed, what elections were
19· ·you thinking about that they had occurred in when
20· ·you completed these Interrogatories?
21· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.
22· · · · Q.· ·Let me -- let me ask the question in a
23· ·more clear way.· That wasn't a clear question.
24· · · · A.· ·Okay.
25· · · · Q.· ·When you completed these Interrogatories,
Page 24·1· ·what election were you thinking these problems
·2· ·occurred in?
·3· · · · A.· ·I'm sure I could come up with examples
·4· ·from all -- all the elections I've helped in, or I
·5· ·cannot remember an election that I have not
·6· ·volunteered in some big or small way, you know, so
·7· ·I -- I -- the sheet of paper they give the poling
·8· ·place for translation problems, that has my phone
·9· ·number.· So I have, you know -- and I call a bank of
10· ·lawyers who volunteer on election -- at election
11· ·time, I think it's the Bar Association, I don't know
12· ·who provides them but I know they're a bunch of UNC
13· ·lawyers from the law school there too, and so if I
14· ·don't know the answer, I'll call them and then I
15· ·call back and I say you can do this.· So I get
16· ·questions and problems.· It's not unusual for me to
17· ·be asked about something that I'm not even there to
18· ·witness, but because somebody is being asked by a
19· ·person, can I vote, I only sent my registration, you
20· ·know, five weeks ago and I never got my little card
21· ·and, you know, and the person doesn't speak much
22· ·English, so the volunteer there at the table will
23· ·dial my number and hand the phone to the person.
24· · · · Q.· ·And you provide translation services?
25· · · · A.· ·Well, I'm just a volunteer, I mean, all
Page 25·1· ·this is through the Orange County Democratic Party.
·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Now, who do you provide translation
·3· ·services for?· I think you mentioned you did it at a
·4· ·poling place?
·5· · · · A.· ·Well, wherever I am, I mean all of the --
·6· ·I'm a member of the Executive Committee of the
·7· ·Orange County Democratic Party.· If you are a
·8· ·volunteer, precint captain or whatever and you run
·9· ·into a problem and you speak no Spanish, you would
10· ·have my phone number to call me, and ask, "Maria,
11· ·can you talk to this person?· I don't know what his
12· ·or her problem is."· Then I would talk to that
13· ·person and explain to you what the problem is.
14· · · · Q.· ·I see.· So you're not providing
15· ·translation services for the Orange County Board of
16· ·Elections, are you?
17· · · · A.· ·Oh, no, no, no, no.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
19· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· I'm sorry to interrupt you,
20· · · · did somebody join the call?· I heard somebody
21· · · · beep in.
22· · · · · · ·MS. LIEBERMAN: I think someone got off.
23· · · · A.· ·I'm not paid a translator, sorry.
24· · · · Q.· ·But if someone contacts the Orange County
25· ·Democratic Party and says I need some translation
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 7 of 26
Page 26·1· ·services in order to vote, you're a volunteer that
·2· ·they can call upon to get --
·3· · · · A.· ·Exactly, there are about three of us, I
·4· ·think, but most people have my cell phone.
·5· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And before 2014 --
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·-- before either the primary, the general
·8· ·2014, what sorts of problems, if any, did you
·9· ·observe voters having when they attempted to vote?
10· · · · A.· ·Well, they didn't know where to vote, so
11· ·we tried to figure out, you know -- I became really
12· ·good at putting in addresses and figuring out where
13· ·they needed to vote.· They had not gotten their card
14· ·or they had not updated their address, they had
15· ·moved to another apartment.· This is really common,
16· ·you know, Latinos move when there's a two month free
17· ·rent in an apartment complex, you know, you're going
18· ·to find they're relocating.· They don't know they
19· ·still, you know, can vote, that kind of thing.
20· · · · Q.· ·And so those problems existed before 2014;
21· ·is that right?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes, absolutely.
23· · · · Q.· ·And before 2014, what other sorts of
24· ·problems did you observe based upon your experience
25· ·voters having in North Carolina?
Page 27·1· · · · A.· ·Well, are you just talking about people
·2· ·trying to get to vote or at the poles?· Because
·3· ·problems like transportation, you know, trying to
·4· ·figure out when is early voting, where do I vote,
·5· ·how do I, you know, get there, those things I've
·6· ·spent a lot of time with but are you just talking at
·7· ·the poles when they are there to vote or are you
·8· ·talking about the whole Latino community?
·9· · · · Q.· ·Well, let's talk about just at the poles
10· ·for now.
11· · · · A.· ·Okay.
12· · · · Q.· ·What problems did you observe if any at
13· ·the poles before 2014?
14· · · · A.· ·Mostly just that -- that peoples' names
15· ·might not be on there and they might need a
16· ·provisional ballot or they might want to figure out
17· ·exactly, you know, where they were supposed to vote
18· ·or that kind of thing.
19· · · · Q.· ·Any other problems at the poles that you
20· ·can recall that you observed before 2014?
21· · · · A.· ·With -- I'm trying to think about early
22· ·registration, sometimes new citizens, you know, the
23· ·first time when you go to register in person, they
24· ·can ask you for identification, to show that you
25· ·have a right to vote there and some confusion as to
Page 28·1· ·what would be appropriate, because you might have a
·2· ·Social Security card but you could be a permanent
·3· ·resident and have a Social Security card, so what
·4· ·documentation they can provide.· And I've had people
·5· ·that show up with their naturalization certificate
·6· ·and that -- that proves that you're a citizen but it
·7· ·doesn't prove where you live, you know, in the
·8· ·county and just different things, trying to
·9· ·sometimes second-guess if what they present, you
10· ·know, trying to -- for me to remember, is this going
11· ·to be okay, especially when we did voter
12· ·registration and people were saying "Okay, I can go
13· ·right now during early voting," you know, and you're
14· ·canvassing a neighborhood and people say, "Well, I'm
15· ·not registered, I don't know."
16· · · · · · ·And we say, "Would you like to register
17· ·today?"
18· · · · · · ·"Well, what do I need to bring?"
19· · · · · · ·"Well, what documents do you have?"
20· · · · · · ·"Oh, I have my New Jersey driver's
21· ·license, I just moved here last month, you know." I
22· ·haven't -- so that kind of -- well, did you sign a
23· ·lease, what, you know, that kind of thing.· So going
24· ·to the poles with people and explaining to the
25· ·people at the poles who they are, where they live,
Page 29·1· ·you know, that kind of thing.
·2· · · · Q.· ·So to help people vote in the past, you
·3· ·have helped them figure out what documents in terms
·4· ·of identification they needed to take with them to
·5· ·register to vote?
·6· · · · A.· ·Right.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And then in some cases, you've gone with
·8· ·them to the poling places to help them understand
·9· ·the process or explain the documents they have?
10· · · · A.· ·Right.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And any other problems that you
12· ·remember observing yourself before 2014?
13· · · · A.· ·At the poles?
14· · · · Q.· ·At the poles.
15· · · · A.· ·I don't think -- I am sorry, I can't
16· ·remember other things.· I might -- probably if I go
17· ·home, some incident might come to mind but right
18· ·now, I think that I'm, you know.....
19· · · · Q.· ·That's what comes to mind?
20· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And in the 2014 election, what
22· ·problems did you personally observe at the poles
23· ·with respect to voting?
24· · · · A.· ·The main thing was people believing that
25· ·they could register during early voting.· That was
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 8 of 26
Page 30·1· ·huge.· And kids saying but, you know, I registered
·2· ·at school or I was in high school when I got my
·3· ·license, I registered, and but they're a student at
·4· ·you UNC now, so they're registering in the wrong
·5· ·county.· And I remember one girl was crying, she was
·6· ·from Charlotte and the best they could tell her was,
·7· ·"Well, since that's still your parents' residence,
·8· ·you could go to Charlotte and vote there."· And she
·9· ·was a freshman and she couldn't drive -- well, she
10· ·didn't have a car, they're not allowed to have cars
11· ·and, you know, she -- she couldn't get back to
12· ·Charlotte to vote.· So -- and she said, "But I asked
13· ·and they told us we won the lawsuit."· And she was,
14· ·you know, really upset, so -- but there were kids
15· ·everyday, everyday being told they couldn't register
16· ·and vote.
17· · · · Q.· ·I think we asked in a later Interrogatory
18· ·here if you had ever served as a pole observer and
19· ·you had said at that time that you had not served as
20· ·a pole observer.· Did you serve as a pole observer
21· ·in any capacity in 2014?
22· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.
23· · · · Q.· ·You can answer.
24· · · · A.· ·The -- no, what I was doing at the poles
25· ·was manning or womaning the table for the Orange
Page 31·1· ·County Democratic Party.
·2· · · · Q.· ·So your experience at the poles during the
·3· ·2014 election cycle and is this -- did you man the
·4· ·Orange County Democratic Party table for the primary
·5· ·election and for the general election or just for
·6· ·the general election?
·7· · · · A.· ·Both.· Well, not -- there's not just one
·8· ·table, we have tables at all the poling places.
·9· ·Sometimes you don't have enough people to cover all
10· ·the poling places, but early voting, there's only
11· ·three -- no, four places in the county, so you take
12· ·your turns, you know.· So sometimes I was at the
13· ·senior center, sometimes I was right here, actually
14· ·one street over on Cameron Avenue at the Halal
15· ·Foundation, I was there a lot.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So I think the incident or the
17· ·problem that you're speaking about is people being
18· ·confused about whether they could register to vote
19· ·during their early voting period --
20· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
21· · · · Q.· ·-- was an issue that was isolated to the
22· ·2014 general election in November; is that right?
23· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And during the 2014 general
25· ·election, you weren't a pole observer inside the
Page 32·1· ·poling place, were you?
·2· · · · A.· ·No.
·3· · · · Q.· ·You were working a table for the Orange
·4· ·County Democratic Party outside of the poling place,
·5· ·right?
·6· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And that poling place was an early voting
·8· ·location here in Chapel Hill at the Halal Center; is
·9· ·that right?
10· · · · A.· ·That was one of the poling places, I also
11· ·took turns in Town Hall in Carrboro.
12· · · · Q.· ·And how much would you say that you worked
13· ·the Orange County Democratic Party table during the
14· ·early voting period during the -- before the 2014
15· ·general election?
16· · · · A.· ·I went by almost everyday to see if they
17· ·needed help.· I took turns of two to four hours,
18· ·depending on what was needed, maybe five of the ten
19· ·days, you know.
20· · · · Q.· ·And you said that the main problem that
21· ·you observed when you were working those tables
22· ·during early voting is that people thought they
23· ·could register and vote during the early voting
24· ·period; is that right?
25· · · · A.· ·That or that they thought that they were
Page 33·1· ·registered and that they could vote.
·2· · · · Q.· ·And how many people would you say had a
·3· ·problem or were confused about whether they could
·4· ·register and vote during their early voting period?
·5· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.
·6· · · · A.· ·I -- I wish everyday that I had taken
·7· ·names down of people, but every shift I took, there
·8· ·were a few.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And by a few, can you put a number on
10· ·that?
11· · · · A.· ·The first day I was at the Halal, I
12· ·remember by the time six or seven students had been
13· ·turned away, I was on the phone calling, saying,
14· ·"This is crazy.· Can't we do something?· Kids are
15· ·crying.· Kids who this is their first election, you
16· ·know, and they can't vote.· They're so disappointed,
17· ·they're so angry, what can we do to help them?" I
18· ·was trying to figure out can we car pool, you know,
19· ·to the big cities that kids come from for them to go
20· ·home and vote.· So I know it was enough students
21· ·that I was getting really upset.· So -- but I don't
22· ·know -- I don't -- I remember an older, wiser
23· ·gentleman coming to replace me, you know, you're not
24· ·going to solve this problem right now.· This is, you
25· ·know, a larger legal issue and, you know, so I try
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 9 of 26
Page 34·1· ·not to get really angry and upset and -- and -- and
·2· ·try to attack problems that are bigger than me and
·3· ·that I felt was one of them, so.....
·4· · · · Q.· ·But you can't put a number on the number
·5· ·of people that you encountered during your early
·6· ·voting experience in the 2014 general election who
·7· ·could not vote because of some misunderstanding
·8· ·about whether they can register and vote the same
·9· ·day during their early voting period?
10· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.
11· · · · A.· ·No, I can't put a number.
12· · · · Q.· ·And you said you thought there were six or
13· ·seven students that first day that you worked at
14· ·Halal during the early voting period who were turned
15· ·away, is the way you put it?
16· · · · A.· ·In the first two hours that I was there,
17· ·yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean by "turned away"?
19· · · · A.· ·They were not allowed to vote.
20· · · · Q.· ·And do you know the reasons why any of
21· ·those students were not allowed to vote?
22· · · · A.· ·They were not registered in Orange County
23· ·or their name did not appear as being registered in
24· ·Orange County.
25· · · · Q.· ·And do you know if it would have been
Page 35·1· ·appropriate for them to register to vote in Orange
·2· ·County?
·3· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes, those students lived in -- were
·5· ·living in Orange County, some were grad students who
·6· ·had relocated.· There were people who -- who were
·7· ·some permanent residents of Orange County now that
·8· ·had started working at the university.· It wasn't
·9· ·all students.· I was mad -- I had been a high school
10· ·teacher and I was really mad for the kids who this
11· ·was their first election, who were full of
12· ·enthusiasm and, you know, wanted to participate in
13· ·civic life, but they were new employees to the
14· ·university, there were, you know, different people.
15· ·I was in my teacher mode, I think, thinking about
16· ·these kids and their civic engagement, that's why
17· ·I'm focusing on them, but there were -- there were
18· ·Latino immigrants too.· One gentleman that came to
19· ·vote comes to mind.
20· · · · Q.· ·Do you know the names of any of these
21· ·individuals you encountered during your time working
22· ·the table for the Orange County Democratic Party
23· ·during the early voting period?
24· · · · A.· ·No, I regret that I didn't take down
25· ·names, I really do.· And I wondered well, no, in
Page 36·1· ·fact, I know that I asked to talk to the guy in
·2· ·charge of the poling place and asked him if they
·3· ·were keeping count of how many people were turned
·4· ·away and reporting that, because I thought that was
·5· ·important.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And what did he tell you?
·7· · · · A.· ·No, they were not.· And that's when I
·8· ·should have gotten my piece of paper out.
·9· · · · Q.· ·But you did not go inside the poling place
10· ·with any of these people that you talked to; is that
11· ·correct?
12· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.
13· · · · A.· ·That is correct.
14· · · · Q.· ·And so you don't know firsthand what was
15· ·said between the voter and the officials in the
16· ·poling place; is that right?
17· · · · A.· ·Well, they reported to me what had been
18· ·said.· They said, "I can't vote."· They said, "You
19· ·know, I, you know, if I'm registered in another
20· ·county, I can't, it's too late."· People told me is
21· ·it true that I can't, you know, register.· Most of
22· ·them were trying to confirm with us what they had
23· ·been told inside.
24· · · · Q.· ·So people would come outside the poling
25· ·place and talk to you at the Orange County
Page 37·1· ·Democratic Party table; is that right?
·2· · · · A.· ·They're actually -- a lot of the time
·3· ·there was -- not a lot.· Some of the time there was
·4· ·not a Republican table but there was -- there was a
·5· ·lot of the time a Republican table, next, and they
·6· ·would say the same thing.· They wouldn't just talk
·7· ·to the Democratic table, they would ask, you know,
·8· ·the people that -- the candidates, for example,
·9· ·because there were some candidates over there, you
10· ·know, shaking hands asking for votes.· I would have
11· ·voted for you but I really couldn't and this
12· ·happened and, you know, so they would come and ask
13· ·the folks that were out front.· I guess they thought
14· ·since we were campaigning or, you know, giving
15· ·sample ballots and all that that we knew what was
16· ·what.· So they were coming to complain to us that
17· ·they couldn't vote.
18· · · · Q.· ·But you --
19· · · · A.· ·To see if we could do something about it.
20· · · · Q.· ·But you can't put a number on the number
21· ·of conversations that occurred like that?
22· · · · A.· ·No.· I have the feeling that many of those
23· ·students went back, that after that first day and
24· ·told their friends and that the number would have
25· ·been much bigger if everybody who thought they could
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 10 of 26
Page 38·1· ·vote would have tried, but after, you know, you see
·2· ·people being turned away, they're going to go back
·3· ·and they don't have their sticker, you know, I
·4· ·voted, so that was part of what made me mad, you
·5· ·know.· It has a mushroom effect -- snow ball effect,
·6· ·sorry, not mushroom, snowball effect, you know.
·7· ·Other people feel like oh, why am I going to go try,
·8· ·you know, my friend couldn't vote, so.....
·9· · · · · · ·Don't put mushroom in there. Sorry, sorry.
10· · · · Q.· ·That's all right.· That's all right.· You
11· ·can just say strike that next time.
12· · · · A.· ·Okay.
13· · · · Q.· ·I have to do that a lot sometimes.
14· · · · A.· ·Okay.
15· · · · Q.· ·Other than the problems that you were
16· ·talking about with same day registration, that was
17· ·what we were talking about a moment ago, right?
18· · · · A.· ·Right.
19· · · · Q.· ·Other than the issues with same day
20· ·registration that we just talked about during the
21· ·2014 general election, any other problems that you
22· ·observed based upon your experience with the 2014
23· ·general election?
24· · · · A.· ·There were no provisional ballots and that
25· ·was disappointing having to send somebody in look of
Page 39·1· ·a precinct that might have their name because, you
·2· ·know, I would look up their address, the address
·3· ·they were telling me, and tell them where to vote,
·4· ·then it was the wrong place and so -- but those two
·5· ·things are I'm thinking the only two things.
·6· · · · · · ·Now, there -- there were -- people did not
·7· ·have to show picture IDs and folks would ask me, you
·8· ·know, "Am I really going to be able to vote without
·9· ·an ID?"
10· · · · · · ·And I would have to assure them, "yes."
11· · · · · · ·And they'd say, "Because I'm not going to
12· ·give those people my driver's license.· They might
13· ·keep it or they might, you know, confiscate it
14· ·or" -- so, I would assure them that they didn't have
15· ·to bring their license, so we did not have that.
16· ·That's a problem I encountered with people not
17· ·wanting to show their license for fear of that, you
18· ·know, something wrong being found with their name or
19· ·some excuse being given and then the authorities
20· ·keeping their license.· So I'm trying to think more
21· ·of barriers, you know, that people encountered with
22· ·transportation.
23· · · · · · ·We had fewer days, you know, to vote which
24· ·was a problem because there are fewer days available
25· ·to match with complicated schedules of people who
Page 40·1· ·have two jobs and whose, you know, schedule gets
·2· ·posted on Thursday night and they were trying to
·3· ·arrange for a ride.· We had two caravans to the
·4· ·poles on Saturdays and I -- and we took people to
·5· ·early voting during those caravans, and, you know,
·6· ·very central located place at University Mall, you
·7· ·know, which is easy to find and people, everybody in
·8· ·Chapel Hill knows where it is and so come over
·9· ·there, you can follow us, it's early voting or you
10· ·can ride with somebody.· But not everybody has
11· ·Saturday off so, in fact, a lot of Latinos work in
12· ·service jobs, so that -- that posed a problem but
13· ·that wasn't an issue at the poles, that was more an
14· ·issue of getting people to the poles.
15· · · · Q.· ·I want to talk about issues that did occur
16· ·at the poles in a moment but one thing that you said
17· ·that was an issue at the poles during the 2014
18· ·general election was that you said there were no
19· ·provisional ballots.
20· · · · A.· ·Right.
21· · · · Q.· ·Can you explain what you mean by that?
22· · · · A.· ·If your name's not there on that list then
23· ·you can't vote.· So I told you about William, who is
24· ·an immigrant from El Salvador, who lives in the
25· ·apartments right next to Community Park on Elliot
Page 41·1· ·Road and by his address, he should have been able to
·2· ·vote at Olin T. Binkley Baptist Church and he told
·3· ·me he had voted at a church, so when I gave him a
·4· ·ride, I took him to Binkley Church because it's
·5· ·three blocks from his apartment, but he wasn't on
·6· ·the roles there.· So I asked him if he remembered
·7· ·the name of the church where he had voted and he
·8· ·hadn't and so a volunteer from the church took him
·9· ·to Church of Rec, which is only a few blocks from
10· ·Binkley, but I don't know if he was able to vote
11· ·because he had to go to the second job from there.
12· ·So, he works at the hospital in the morning and then
13· ·until 3:00, I think, and then at a nursing home in
14· ·the evening.
15· · · · · · ·So I picked him up at the hospital, took
16· ·him to the church that he had said, you know,
17· ·because I thought it was the right place that he was
18· ·supposed to vote, but he didn't get to vote.
19· · · · Q.· ·Well, you said he didn't get to vote, but
20· ·you don't know whether he voted later or not?
21· · · · A.· ·No, I don't.
22· · · · Q.· ·And do you know what William's last name
23· ·is?
24· · · · A.· ·His wife is Ida Lee. I can find out before
25· ·the trial.
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 11 of 26
Page 42·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Well, if you'll let your attorney
·2· ·know if you find out --
·3· · · · A.· ·Sure.
·4· · · · Q.· ·-- that will be great.
·5· · · · A.· ·I definitely can.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Well, staying on this subject of no
·7· ·provisional ballots, right, William, for example,
·8· ·when William went to his poling place, do you know
·9· ·if he was told you can't vote a provisional ballot
10· ·at all or we will give you a provisional ballot but
11· ·if this is not the correct precint, your ballot will
12· ·not count?
13· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.
14· · · · A.· ·No, because I was translating and they --
15· ·they called me in.· He came out and they said -- and
16· ·he said, "You can come in, I can't vote."
17· · · · · · ·And so I went in and the guy said, "Please
18· ·explain to him that he can't vote, this is the wrong
19· ·precint."
20· · · · · · ·So I -- they didn't give him that option
21· ·of telling him it won't count, they were trying to
22· ·help him find -- because he was sure that he had
23· ·voted before and he had voted in a church in Chapel
24· ·Hill, we were trying to find out where he was
25· ·supposed to vote.
Page 43·1· · · · Q.· ·So the pole official was trying to direct
·2· ·him to the correct poling place?
·3· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And you went inside the poling place with
·5· ·William?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What poling place was that?
·8· · · · A.· ·Binkley, Olin T. Binkley Baptist Church.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And do you remember the approximate date
10· ·or time during the early voting period when that
11· ·occurred?
12· · · · A.· ·Oh, wow, I think it was the last day, it
13· ·was a Saturday maybe.· It had to be the last day
14· ·because he was going to be working in Durham a
15· ·double shift at the nursing home or something like
16· ·that on election day or he couldn't get off
17· ·permission on election -- there was a reason that he
18· ·couldn't go to the poles on election day, and he
19· ·said it was his last opportunity to vote and could I
20· ·give him a ride.· It was the last day of early
21· ·voting.
22· · · · Q.· ·And --
23· · · · A.· ·No, no, no, I'm totally confused, this was
24· ·election day.· He had not been able to make it to
25· ·early voting.· I'm trying to figure out -- it had to
Page 44·1· ·be election day because Church of Rec is not open.
·2· ·It's not early voting.· It was election day.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So this was on election day?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes, it was election day.
·5· · · · Q.· ·He had tried to go to the Binkley Baptist
·6· ·Church precinct?
·7· · · · A.· ·That's right.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Because he remembered that he had voted at
·9· ·a church previously?
10· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
11· · · · Q.· ·And when you took him and dropped him off
12· ·at Binkley, he went inside the poling place --
13· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.
14· · · · Q.· ·-- and then he came back out and told you,
15· ·"They won't let me vote."
16· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
17· · · · Q.· ·And then you went inside the poling place
18· ·at Binkley with him?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·And tell me to the best of your
21· ·recollection what was said at that point?
22· · · · A.· ·And I can tell you who said it.· Bill
23· ·Niery was the official I talked to, because he's a
24· ·member of Binkley and I know him, he's a teacher at
25· ·the School of Science and Math and I didn't know he
Page 45·1· ·was a pole worker and I said, "Bill, how come
·2· ·William can't vote?"
·3· · · · · · ·And he said, "He's not registered here.
·4· ·This is not his precinct."· And that's where we
·5· ·tried to find another person to take him.
·6· · · · · · ·He said, "It has to be Church of Rec.
·7· ·because he says it was a church and he said it was
·8· ·closer to his apartment and so....."
·9· · · · Q.· ·And how do you know spell Mr. Niery's last
10· ·name, if you know?
11· · · · A.· ·I can look him up in the church directory,
12· ·N-i -- or I can call the church when we take a
13· ·break.
14· · · · Q.· ·Well, don't worry about that, I just
15· ·wanted to see if you would remember just because you
16· ·said you had known him.
17· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
18· · · · Q.· ·But Mr. Niery teaches at the School of
19· ·Science and Math?
20· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
21· · · · Q.· ·And he was working as a pole official at
22· ·the Binkley Church that day?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And to the best of your
25· ·recollection, he told you that William could not
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 12 of 26
Page 46·1· ·vote because that was not the right precinct?
·2· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And did you ask Mr. Niery if he could vote
·4· ·a provisional ballot anyway?
·5· · · · A.· ·I don't remember if I did.· He may have
·6· ·said yes but it won't count or something like that,
·7· ·like you suggested.· I don't know why he thought it
·8· ·would be better for William to figure out his
·9· ·precinct and go and vote in the right precinct.
10· · · · · · ·And my recollection right now is he said
11· ·he can't vote here, but I don't know if he said that
12· ·because he knew it wouldn't count if he wasn't in
13· ·the right precinct.· I could ask him but I don't
14· ·even know if he would remember, you know, the
15· ·incident.
16· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember any other incident in
17· ·which a person specifically requested a provisional
18· ·ballot and was told you can't vote a provisional
19· ·ballot at all?
20· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form,
21· · · · mischaracterizes the record.
22· · · · A.· ·I --
23· · · · Q.· ·Well, let me -- let me rephrase the
24· ·question then.
25· · · · · · ·Do you remember any incident at all where
Page 47·1· ·someone was told I would like to vote a provisional
·2· ·ballot at a poling place but they were told by a
·3· ·poling official you cannot do that?
·4· · · · A.· ·No.· I know people came out of the Weaver
·5· ·Dairy Precinct, I was there in the morning and at a
·6· ·table and people came out who had not voted who had
·7· ·been told go home and go to the Board of Elections
·8· ·website and try to figure out where you're supposed
·9· ·to vote.· So they were not -- I don't know if they
10· ·had asked for a provisional ballot and had been told
11· ·it won't count or what, but there were people coming
12· ·out that had been directed to go try to find their
13· ·right place.· So William wasn't the only person, he
14· ·was the only person I translated for that that
15· ·happened, but he wasn't the only person who was told
16· ·you can't vote here, go find out where you're
17· ·supposed to vote.· I know that happened at the
18· ·Weaver Dairy Precinct to more than -- more than
19· ·three people that I can -- I -- I know were not able
20· ·to vote because they were told they were in the
21· ·wrong precinct.
22· · · · Q.· ·And were you present for any of the
23· ·conversations that occurred in the Weaver Dairy
24· ·Precinct?
25· · · · A.· ·No, not inside.
Page 48·1· · · · Q.· ·And do you know whether any of those three
·2· ·people that you mentioned at the Weaver Dairy
·3· ·Precinct were able to vote later at another poling
·4· ·place?
·5· · · · A.· ·No, I did not follow-up on any of those.
·6· ·I did tell them how to log on and that they put
·7· ·their address, you know, in the corner.· I did not
·8· ·have my laptop because I didn't have wi-fi at the
·9· ·Weaver Dairy Precinct.
10· · · · Q.· ·But you tried to help them find the
11· ·correct precinct to vote in?
12· · · · A.· ·I told them, you know, do you have wi-fi
13· ·at home, I mean, a computer, this is how you go and
14· ·this is, you know....
15· · · · Q.· ·And a moment ago you brought up some
16· ·issues that might have occurred outside of the
17· ·poling places.
18· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.
19· · · · Q.· ·And so let's talk about those now.
20· · · · A.· ·Okay.
21· · · · Q.· ·Before 2014, are there any issues that you
22· ·have observed North Carolina voters having outside
23· ·of the poling place?
24· · · · A.· ·Before 2014?
25· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
Page 49·1· · · · A.· ·Okay.· Lots of issues.· Transportation,
·2· ·trying to -- folks have crazy schedules.· The lower
·3· ·you are on the totem pole, the less control you have
·4· ·of your schedule and your life.· And for Latino
·5· ·families, this is really true.· Often there's only
·6· ·one person with a driver's license who also is the
·7· ·voting person, so they're providing transportation
·8· ·for the whole family and children and plus working
·9· ·one or two jobs.· So getting the information to
10· ·people, where to go, when to vote, the Spanish media
11· ·does a good job but for example, we have only weekly
12· ·papers and they cover the whole Triangle, so whereas
13· ·in the Chapel Hill News, an anglo speaker, you know,
14· ·English speaker who's familiar with things can look
15· ·at voting places and precincts and get voter -- not
16· ·voter guys but -- well, yeah, you have, you know,
17· ·the voter guys who's running for what office, what
18· ·the office is.· In Spanish, it's not as available
19· ·and also, it's not just Hispanics, African Americans
20· ·or people who dropped out of school.· More than 50
21· ·percent of the Latinos in North Carolina between 16
22· ·and 19 have not finished high school and are not in
23· ·high school.· So you have illiteracy issues, you
24· ·have a civic education issue, you have
25· ·transportation problems.· There are a lot of things
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 13 of 26
Page 50·1· ·to overcome to get poor people and the distress of
·2· ·government, you know.
·3· · · · · · ·I've only been a citizen for three years
·4· ·and my wife is not a citizen or my husband, you
·5· ·know, I've just put in the papers for them to get
·6· ·residency and, you know, are they going to ask me
·7· ·questions?· So all kinds of barriers.· It's almost a
·8· ·full-time job to do civic education and get people
·9· ·registered into the poles.· It could be a full-time
10· ·job for somebody.
11· · · · Q.· ·And do you know if there are people who do
12· ·that sort of thing full-time?
13· · · · A.· ·I don't think so, I mean I wish there
14· ·were.· Civic educators, you know, at the high school
15· ·level are trying to train the kids to be good
16· ·citizens and to reach out and by extension, educate
17· ·their families but, you know.....
18· · · · Q.· ·Well, there are a lot of organizations out
19· ·there doing voter registration work, are there not?
20· · · · A.· ·Oh, right, right, right, The League of
21· ·Women Voters is one, right, right, yeah, I
22· ·thought -- but those are all volunteers.· I thought
23· ·like you were asking me if there's somebody from the
24· ·Board of Elections going out and doing voter
25· ·education, I don't know but I don't think so.
Page 51·1· · · · Q.· ·Well, in terms of non profit organizations
·2· ·though, they have staffs, right, the NAACP has paid
·3· ·staff and The League of Women Voters has paid staff?
·4· · · · A.· ·Not in Orange County.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Not in Orange County?· What -- what --
·6· ·what is your -- and I understand that you are
·7· ·involved with the North Carolina State Conference
·8· ·and NAACP; is that right?
·9· · · · A.· ·Not -- I don't have any position.· I mean
10· ·I'm involved in that.· I participate in the movement
11· ·but no, to my knowledge, we only have statewide paid
12· ·positions.· We don't have offices in Orange County.
13· ·The state office is in Durham.· And if we're lucky,
14· ·you know, we can get the director to come and, you
15· ·know, give a speech at a dinner or, you know, help
16· ·our branch organize something.
17· · · · · · ·No.· I -- I've been very involved in the
18· ·Orange County NAACP, it's called Chapel Hill
19· ·Carrboro NAACP and we don't have any paid staff.
20· · · · Q.· ·Are you familiar with the organization
21· ·called Democracy North Carolina?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes, they helped me when I worked with my
23· ·students at A&T to do voter registration.
24· · · · Q.· ·And do you know if they put out literature
25· ·that explains to voters changes in voting laws and
Page 52·1· ·how to vote and things of that nature?
·2· · · · A.· ·Yes, they do.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And do you know if they're putting any of
·4· ·that out in Spanish?
·5· · · · A.· ·I know I got a bilingual little pamphlet
·6· ·like two weeks before the elections, but I think
·7· ·that came from D.C. but I don't know, maybe it was
·8· ·Democracy North Carolina.· And one side was in
·9· ·English and another side in Spanish and it did say
10· ·you don't need an ID.· And that was very helpful to
11· ·give it out.· I -- I was not able to distribute all
12· ·that I got because we don't have the manpower, I
13· ·mean....
14· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· We've been going for about an
15· · · · hour now, do we need to take a short break or
16· · · · are you okay?
17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm okay.
18· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Okay.
19· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· I'll be glad to -- why
20· · · · don't we do a little bit more and then take a
21· · · · break?· I wouldn't mind one myself.
22· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Sure.
23· · · · Q.· ·Do you know of anyone by name who was not
24· ·able to vote in the 2014 elections because of any
25· ·change made to North Carolina's voting laws by House
Page 53·1· ·Bill 589?
·2· · · · A.· ·This is another instance of wishing I had
·3· ·written down names, but our last naturalization
·4· ·ceremony before the election, I had to tell people
·5· ·that it was too late to register, even though, you
·6· ·know, the year before -- well, not the year before,
·7· ·in 2012, I had been able to tell people take your
·8· ·naturalization certificate and go to early voting.
·9· ·And I had actually taken a person, Elena Oncarita
10· ·Soto to the pole to early voting myself, was very
11· ·excited after the Friday naturalization ceremony
12· ·before the elections, the Tuesday elections.
13· · · · · · ·In 2014, there was an English woman who
14· ·was really upset because she said, "It's taking me
15· ·two years to get, you know, my citizenship and now
16· ·you're telling me I can't vote."· Because The League
17· ·of Women Voters has a table at the naturalization
18· ·ceremonies and we give out -- I say "we," I help
19· ·when I'm able to, they always have people there to
20· ·welcome new citizens and to give them a voter
21· ·registration card, but it was too late.
22· · · · Q.· ·So the scenario you were describing is
23· ·where someone attends their naturalization ceremony,
24· ·they're sworn in as a citizen of the ceremony; is
25· ·that right?
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 14 of 26
Page 54·1· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
·2· · · · Q.· ·And that ceremony occurs after the normal
·3· ·cut-off for voter registration; is that right?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes, there is early voting going on but
·5· ·since we don't have same day registration, they
·6· ·can't register now.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And have you looked into whether there is
·8· ·any way for people in that particular scenario to
·9· ·still register and vote even without same day
10· ·registration?
11· · · · A.· ·I have asked the Board of Elections and
12· ·I've been told no.
13· · · · Q.· ·And which Board of Elections did you ask?
14· · · · A.· ·Orange County.
15· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember who you spoke with?
16· · · · A.· ·Betty, Betty, her first name is Betty.
17· ·She's really, really sweet.· She said no, because
18· ·the cut-off is 25 days before the elections.
19· · · · Q.· ·And so if your naturalization ceremony is
20· ·between the 25-day cut off and election day, your
21· ·understanding is that you cannot register and vote
22· ·in that election?
23· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
24· · · · Q.· ·And were you involved in naturalization
25· ·ceremonies in any of the other states that you lived
Page 55·1· ·in?
·2· · · · A.· ·Yes, in Louisville.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·4· · · · A.· ·I became a citizen myself but I never
·5· ·volunteered to register people.· It actually had not
·6· ·occurred to me until I came to North Carolina.
·7· · · · · · ·Naturalization ceremonies used to be held
·8· ·more infrequently.· They used to be like three times
·9· ·a year and you had to wait and wait and then there
10· ·would be hundreds of people and it would be, you
11· ·know, like Fourth of July or big events and massive
12· ·chaos and now it's become more of a routine
13· ·procedure, so they're -- a lot of Fridays you just
14· ·have 60 people, you know, it's not this massive
15· ·chaotic once in a lifetime thing but it's -- it's
16· ·more of a routine procedure, like instead of having
17· ·the big Carolina graduation if you finished your
18· ·degree in that, you know, in January, you had one in
19· ·February, you had one in March.· So it has become
20· ·more easier to register people and to offer that
21· ·because it's self contained and it's only certain
22· ·counties, so it's easier to direct people to the
23· ·poles and to tell them where to go.
24· · · · · · ·Before I've accompanied people to
25· ·naturalization ceremonies that were four hours away
Page 56·1· ·from where they live, you know, so it was not -- I
·2· ·don't think it was, like anybody was at fault like
·3· ·The League of Women Voters of Kentucky or anything,
·4· ·it was just not as feasible as it is now.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And do you know if Kentucky had same day
·6· ·registration during the time that you were there?
·7· · · · A.· ·I have no idea.· Wow, that's a tough
·8· ·question.· I know who I could call to find out but I
·9· ·don't remember.
10· · · · Q.· ·Well, in other places that you lived and
11· ·done voter registration, voter engagement work and
12· ·similar types of activities, did any of those other
13· ·places have early voting when you were engaging in
14· ·those type of activities in those states?
15· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.
16· · · · A.· ·I know in West virginia and Virginia, we
17· ·did more with absentee voting because the rural --
18· ·the distances in transportation were such a huge
19· ·issue, you know, people from a little town in the
20· ·coal mines and all, but I don't remember that. I
21· ·know I was very proud that North Carolina had such a
22· ·tremendous outreach and such a tremendous effort to
23· ·have everybody's voice, you know, heard.· I have
24· ·never been involved to the extent that I was
25· ·involved since I moved to North Carolina with trying
Page 57·1· ·to help people who had never voted in their lives,
·2· ·like with my students at A&T, we went to the
·3· ·projects and found people who had never voted,
·4· ·people in their fifties, forties, fifties, sixties
·5· ·and explaining to them all the opportunities they
·6· ·had, you know, to register and everything.· It was a
·7· ·very good feeling.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And in your Get Out to Vote work here with
·9· ·the Orange County Democratic Party and the other
10· ·organizations that you're involved with, do you
11· ·recommend or use absentee voting very much in those
12· ·activities?
13· · · · A.· ·No, I don't.
14· · · · Q.· ·And why is that?
15· · · · A.· ·It wasn't the most practical thing.· You
16· ·can't tell people how to vote and using an absentee
17· ·ballot for somebody that -- I don't know, I -- same
18· ·day -- same day registration and early voting were
19· ·tools that served us well to get people to the
20· ·poles.· We probably have to rethink that for the
21· ·2016 election if the law doesn't change and make
22· ·more use of absentee ballots but then you have to
23· ·think about the stamp and -- I don't know -- I don't
24· ·know what will be involved with it.· It seemed more
25· ·complicated and cumbersome, and, you know, it's like
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 15 of 26
Page 58·1· ·asking people to file taxes rather than exercising a
·2· ·right.· It's more of a burden than a -- than the
·3· ·exercise of a right, it feels like to me, but that's
·4· ·my prejudice, probably.· I'll have to look into it.
·5· · · · Q.· ·Are you aware that in 2016 if a voter
·6· ·casts an absentee ballot, he or she will not have to
·7· ·show a photo ID?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes, I'm aware of that and that may be a
·9· ·good reason to use absentee ballots.
10· · · · Q.· ·Because I think I saw in some of the
11· ·materials that you provided and perhaps in your
12· ·declaration that you filed in this case, you said
13· ·that you thought Hispanic and Latino voters were
14· ·concerned about having to show a photo ID at the
15· ·poles, right?
16· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
17· · · · Q.· ·And would voting by absentee ballot be one
18· ·method that allow them to vote and not have to show
19· ·a photo ID at the poles in 2016?
20· · · · A.· ·That -- right, that would be one way. I
21· ·can see huge issues with it with, you know, they
22· ·have to write to request the absentee ballot, so you
23· ·have to write and I don't think -- well, I know the
24· ·request is not in Spanish, it's in English.· Like I
25· ·mentioned, more than half of Latinos in North
Page 59·1· ·Carolina have not finished high school, many of them
·2· ·have not finished eighth grade.· Well, no, they
·3· ·dropped out of school probably around in middle
·4· ·school, but anyway, the point is you're asking
·5· ·people to take several steps.· Honestly, it's almost
·6· ·like having a literacy test because you have to be
·7· ·able to read and write English well to know how to
·8· ·send a letter and have, you know, the planning
·9· ·ability to -- to plan enough time to do both, to
10· ·receive -- to write the letter in time and you're
11· ·talking about a civic education process way beyond
12· ·voting in order for people to be able to use that.
13· ·I can see where I would have to spend all my time
14· ·doing just that rather than campaigning or anything
15· ·else for people to be able to successfully use
16· ·absentee ballots, and I don't think I can reach half
17· ·of the voters, you know, that -- that would have
18· ·qualms about using an ID.
19· · · · · · ·I can -- I can totally see how awful that
20· ·would sound to a campaign for you not to have to
21· ·show your ID or -- anyway, like there's something
22· ·wrong with them, you know, that would scare people.
23· ·Oh, if these people are having a campaign so yeah, I
24· ·don't have to show my ID, maybe I shouldn't.· I was
25· ·planning on showing my ID but now I won't because
Page 60·1· ·why would they be telling other people to use, you
·2· ·know, absentee?
·3· · · · Q.· ·Well, do you think your absentee ballot
·4· ·focus in West Virginia and Virginia was successful?
·5· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.
·6· · · · A.· ·I didn't have an absentee ballot vote, I'm
·7· ·just aware that that was thing -- that was something
·8· ·that was used by people in West Virginia and
·9· ·Virginia.
10· · · · · · ·I taught high school when I live -- first
11· ·I worked in Bluefield College and then I taught high
12· ·school, actually, in the Virginia side.· I focused
13· ·very much on my high school students understanding
14· ·voting and understanding the ballots, understanding
15· ·the process, why democracy is so important, why
16· ·participation is so important, why they -- I worked
17· ·with kids whose parents mostly had not graduated
18· ·from high school.· They worked at the mills in the
19· ·hollows of Virginia, you know, and for them to
20· ·understand that if their voice was not heard in
21· ·Richmond, they -- the highway was never going to get
22· ·fixed.· You know, we got washed out on the little
23· ·highway going to the high school and their
24· ·consolidation of schools was going to continue and
25· ·they were going to lose their schools because they
Page 61·1· ·were cutting funds for education and all those
·2· ·things, so that was more my focus there, trying --
·3· ·issues, understanding the process.· I was not
·4· ·involved with my precinct or anything like that in
·5· ·West Virginia.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Did you say earlier though that you
·7· ·thought that absentee balloting was helpful in West
·8· ·Virginia and Virginia with people who had
·9· ·transportation issues?
10· · · · A.· ·I'm pretty --
11· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Objection to form.· I think
12· · · · that mischaracterizes the record.
13· · · · A.· ·Sorry.
14· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· You can answer.
15· · · · A.· ·I can?· I'm sorry.
16· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· You can answer.
17· · · · A.· ·What I said is that I know that yes, yes,
18· ·I said that, that I thought they used it there.
19· · · · · · ·Now, I also know that there were stories I
20· ·heard about politics in West Virginia that were
21· ·totally scary about buses coming to pick up people
22· ·from the little towns and giving them, you know,
23· ·barbecue or whatever for their vote or -- I don't
24· ·know.· I -- it was definitely a different culture
25· ·and a different life.· I lived in West Virginia from
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 16 of 26
Page 62·1· ·'91 to '96 with a year of sabbatical in the middle,
·2· ·so four years with one year in the middle here in
·3· ·Chapel Hill in sabbatical, which is when we decided
·4· ·to move to North Carolina.· But -- so in those --
·5· ·those four years were an education and I tried to be
·6· ·involved and I tried to educate my students and I
·7· ·tried to help, but it wasn't enough to truly
·8· ·understand the politics of the state and to -- and I
·9· ·lived in two -- I worked in one state and lived in
10· ·one state, so I could not tell you enough about
11· ·politics of West Virginia or Virginia to be helpful.
12· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Michael, we've been going for
13· · · · about an hour and a half now, is this an okay
14· · · · time to take a break?
15· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· This is fine. sure.
16· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Okay.
17· · · · (WHEREUPON A SHORT RECESS IS TAKEN.)
18· ·BY MR. McKNIGHT:
19· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Palmer, before we took a break, we
20· ·were talking a little bit about absentee balloting.
21· ·Did you assist anyone in casting an absentee ballot
22· ·in the 2014 general election?
23· · · · A.· ·No, I did not.
24· · · · Q.· ·And so your knowledge about the absentee
25· ·balloting process is based upon what?
Page 63·1· · · · A.· ·Going on line, looking up information. I
·2· ·told people the dates when The League of Women
·3· ·Voters had a booth at Festival and we had a sheet of
·4· ·paper with information for people.· Actually, I
·5· ·think we may have had the form you have to fill out.
·6· ·I'm not a hundred percent sure.· I'm positive we had
·7· ·a sheet with information how to cast an absentee
·8· ·ballot and under -- either under on top of it, it
·9· ·also had the early voting dates, and then if you
10· ·weren't going to be able to make that, where to cast
11· ·an absentee ballot.
12· · · · Q.· ·And is that something that was provided by
13· ·The League of Women Voters?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes. I know it was not in Spanish. I
15· ·translated one -- started to translate one and had
16· ·it on a clip board there at Festival but we had the
17· ·early voting dates and information in Spanish
18· ·because I had emailed that ahead of the event.
19· · · · Q.· ·And you mentioned something about having
20· ·to send in a letter to request an absentee ballot,
21· ·are you referring to simply the absentee ballot
22· ·request form or are you thinking about something
23· ·else?
24· · · · A.· ·I'm thinking about that form.· But I think
25· ·you can also send a letter.· You have to request --
Page 64·1· ·you have to send a request and it can be a form --
·2· ·if -- I'm thinking about people who don't have
·3· ·printers and they just send a letter and I think
·4· ·that it said that -- or you can send a letter with
·5· ·the following information and it has your name,
·6· ·address, all the things you have to put on the
·7· ·letter.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And during the 2014 election cycle, I'm
·9· ·referring to both the primary and the general there,
10· ·are you aware of any issues or problems voters had
11· ·outside the poling place that we haven't already
12· ·talked about?
13· · · · A.· ·Outside the poling place?· We have talked
14· ·about transportation, about precinct, about knowing
15· ·where the precinct was, about scheduling, about
16· ·thinking that they could pre-register.· I mean
17· ·personal issues like baby sitters and stuff like
18· ·that that you run across but no, I can't think of
19· ·generalized issues.
20· · · · Q.· ·Would it be fair to say that many if not
21· ·most of those issues though existed before the 2014
22· ·elections as well?
23· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Object to form.
24· · · · A.· ·Not the thinking that you can register and
25· ·vote with same day voter registration.· That did not
Page 65·1· ·exist before, and I had not experienced people being
·2· ·told on election day that you can't vote here, you
·3· ·need to find your precinct.· Those two things had
·4· ·not happened before.
·5· · · · Q.· ·But they were the main differences between
·6· ·what you observed in 2014 and what you had observed
·7· ·before 2014?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·I want to direct your attention to the
10· ·response to Interrogatory Number 11, and that
11· ·Interrogatory simply asks about any forms of photo
12· ·identification that you had in your possession and
13· ·you stated at the time that --
14· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Why don't we give her a chance
15· · · · just to read it, if that's okay.
16· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Sure.
17· · · · A.· ·Okay.
18· · · · Q.· ·So having read Interrogatory Number 11, is
19· ·it accurate to say that you currently have a North
20· ·Carolina driver's license?
21· · · · A.· ·That is accurate.
22· · · · Q.· ·And do you have any concerns about your
23· ·ability to use that North Carolina driver's license
24· ·as an acceptable form of photo ID during the 2016
25· ·elections?
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 17 of 26
Page 66·1· · · · A.· ·I have a concern, a small concern that the
·2· ·poling folks will have been given some kind of
·3· ·instruction that your name on your ID has to match
·4· ·exactly your name on your voter registration, and
·5· ·I've had issues previously with names not matching
·6· ·being a problem for government functions.· So that
·7· ·is a concern for me but more than for me, for a lot
·8· ·of people I work with.
·9· · · · Q.· ·So let's talk about that a minute.· Has
10· ·anyone told you that in order to vote in 2016, the
11· ·name on your driver's license will have to match
12· ·exactly with the name on your voter registration?
13· · · · A.· ·No.
14· · · · Q.· ·And what is the basis then of your concern
15· ·about that issue?
16· · · · A.· ·Run-ins with the DMV and with other state
17· ·offices.· I've had parishioners and friends who I
18· ·gave an example in my Interrogatory, my friend, Mya
19· ·Sanchez, whose driver's license was confiscated
20· ·because it didn't match her Social Security card and
21· ·she was told at the Carrboro DMV that she had lied
22· ·because she had provided her married name when she
23· ·got her card.· She had -- she married and moved to
24· ·North Carolina.· She married a North Carolinian, was
25· ·living in New York, moved to North Carolina, took
Page 67·1· ·her marriage license to get her DMV driver's license
·2· ·and never changed her Social Security card, because
·3· ·that -- she -- her professional name remained her
·4· ·maiden name, and they confiscated her card and said
·5· ·she wasn't that person and, you know, she had to
·6· ·call her husband to come pick her up and -- and I've
·7· ·had problems in the schools, I've had problems
·8· ·everywhere with name issues, even with my children
·9· ·having their names changed, you know, having to
10· ·argue that no, there's not a hyphen there or this or
11· ·that, you know, they have two last names, things
12· ·like that.
13· · · · Q.· ·Well, with respect to Ms. Sanchez, do you
14· ·remember when the incident that you were referring
15· ·to with the Carrboro DMV occurred?
16· · · · A.· ·I believe four years ago, something like
17· ·that, three years ago maybe.
18· · · · Q.· ·And --
19· · · · A.· ·No probably three, three, years ago.
20· · · · Q.· ·Were you present at the DMV when Ms.
21· ·Sanchez's license was confiscated?
22· · · · A.· ·No, she called me after.· She called me
23· ·from home.
24· · · · Q.· ·So everything you know about that incident
25· ·is based upon what Ms. Sanchez told you?
Page 68·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·2· · · · Q.· ·And do you know anyone else who has had a
·3· ·driver's license confiscated by DMV?
·4· · · · A.· ·No, but I have threatened a sit-in and
·5· ·told them to call the police when they refused to
·6· ·give a license to a woman who had her purse
·7· ·snatched.· The only document she could produce to
·8· ·prove her identity was her naturalization
·9· ·certificate because her Social Security card and
10· ·driver's license were in her purse and they said
11· ·that wasn't adequate because she needed two
12· ·documents and she needed, you know, birth
13· ·certificate, which she didn't have because she's
14· ·from El Salvador and, you know, so I said, "She has
15· ·to have a driver's license.· She's going to end up
16· ·in jail and, you know, we're going to sit here,
17· ·please call the police, and call your supervisor
18· ·and, you know, what more proof do you need than a
19· ·naturalization certificate?"· But they are real
20· ·difficult to work with, very difficult.· And you end
21· ·up -- my -- my driver's license now is not in
22· ·compliance with their rules and I know I'm going to
23· ·have a problem when I go renew it because I have to
24· ·go change my Social Security to match that, based on
25· ·my friend's experiences and my son's experience.
Page 69·1· · · · Q.· ·Well, now, you're saying you're going to
·2· ·have to get your driver's license to match the name
·3· ·on your Social Security card the next time you try
·4· ·to renew your driver's license?
·5· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
·6· · · · Q.· ·But you're not concerned about the
·7· ·discrepancy between your Social Security card and
·8· ·your driver's license keeping you from voting, are
·9· ·you?
10· · · · A.· ·Well, I hope not.· I hope they know me in
11· ·my precinct, you know.· I would think that would be
12· ·outrageous, but I'm not putting it past -- past some
13· ·precinct workers.· I don't think it will happen in
14· ·Weaver Dairy Precinct.
15· · · · Q.· ·And now with respect to this lady who you
16· ·said had trouble getting her driver's license and
17· ·you threatened a sit-in, when did that occur?
18· · · · A.· ·Probably 2005, sometime around -- about
19· ·ten years ago.
20· · · · Q.· ·And was she ever able to get her driver's
21· ·license?
22· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.· They didn't want to call the
23· ·police.· They told me that they were going to call
24· ·the police if they pulled out her license and the
25· ·picture in there didn't match what she looked like,
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 18 of 26
Page 70·1· ·which -- but they locked the office before they
·2· ·issued her license.· They didn't want anybody to see
·3· ·that they could actually do it.
·4· · · · Q.· ·You said they locked the office?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yeah, we stayed there until 5:00.· It took
·6· ·me three hours or more to get her license.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Wow.· Where did that occur?
·8· · · · A.· ·Carrboro DMV.
·9· · · · Q.· ·I hand you a document, ma'am, that has
10· ·been marked as NAACP Exhibit 9, and we'll give a
11· ·copy to your attorneys here.
12· · · · A.· ·Okay.
13· · · · · · ·(EXHIBIT NUMBER NAACP 9 WAS MARKED FOR
14· ·IDENTIFICATION.)
15· · · · Q.· ·I believe this is a document that was
16· ·produced to us in the course of this lawsuit.· It's
17· ·numbered as NCSC 618 at the bottom, the bottom
18· ·right-hand corner.Do you see that?
19· · · · A.· ·No.· Where?
20· · · · Q.· ·There's a number at the bottom right-hand
21· ·corner.
22· · · · A.· ·Right.
23· · · · Q.· ·That's called a Bates number is what
24· ·that's called and it's just Page 618 and that just
25· ·helps us when we're referring to a document, make
Page 71·1· ·sure we're all talking about the same thing.
·2· · · · A.· ·Okay.
·3· · · · Q.· ·But for our purposes here today, it's
·4· ·NAACP Exhibit 9.
·5· · · · A.· ·Okay.
·6· · · · Q.· ·What are the documents that appear on this
·7· ·page?
·8· · · · A.· ·My State of North Carolina driver's
·9· ·license, my North Carolina Democratic Party
10· ·Membership Card and my Board of Elections -- Orange
11· ·County Board of Elections registration card that has
12· ·my precinct, Weaver Dairy Precinct and where to
13· ·vote.
14· · · · Q.· ·And at the top of the page here, is this a
15· ·copy of your current driver's license?
16· · · · A.· ·That is.
17· · · · Q.· ·And is your name correct as it appears on
18· ·this license?
19· · · · A.· ·It's not my full legal name.· My name is
20· ·Maria Teresa Unger Palmer, Maria Teresa Unger
21· ·Palmer.
22· · · · Q.· ·So Teresa's been left out of the name?
23· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
24· · · · Q.· ·And do you know how that happened?
25· · · · A.· ·No, maybe they didn't have space, maybe --
Page 72·1· ·I don't know.
·2· · · · Q.· ·And it looks like you received this
·3· ·license perhaps in 2010, because that's the issue
·4· ·date.· Does that sound about right?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And when you saw this in 2010, did you
·7· ·raise any issues with DMV and say hey, you left out
·8· ·Teresa in my name?
·9· · · · A.· ·I may have said, "My signature is Maria T.
10· ·for Teresa and it's not going to match."
11· · · · · · ·And the lady just said, "Just sign it, you
12· ·know."· I know I didn't think that -- I thought it
13· ·should have all my names but for some reason, they
14· ·didn't put all my names in here.
15· · · · Q.· ·And the document at the bottom page, that
16· ·appears to be an Orange County voter registration
17· ·card?
18· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
19· · · · Q.· ·It's called a voter identification card
20· ·more precisely.· Is this a current copy of your
21· ·Orange County voter identification card?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes, it is.
23· · · · Q.· ·I want to direct your attention to
24· ·Interrogatory Number 20.
25· · · · A.· ·Okay.
Page 73·1· · · · Q.· ·And I want to give you a chance to read
·2· ·that first and then let me know when you're ready
·3· ·for some questions.
·4· · · · A.· ·Okay.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And Interrogatory 20 just basically asks
·6· ·if you knew anyone who had knowledge of the
·7· ·allegations in the Complaint, and you've listed
·8· ·several specific names here, and so I just want to
·9· ·ask you about what you think specifically these
10· ·people may know about things that are related to
11· ·this lawsuit.· So I think it's just easy to go in
12· ·order here.· So how about Andrea Vizoso, and you can
13· ·correct me if I mispronounce any of these names.
14· · · · A.· ·Vizoso, she has worked very hard with
15· ·voter registration, and she's the one that asked me
16· ·if I was willing to give my phone number for -- to
17· ·people serving at the different poles, if people had
18· ·problems and she -- she cannot do things that are
19· ·partisan because she works for an agency that
20· ·doesn't allow that and so she cannot -- if she gave
21· ·out her phone number, people might call that are
22· ·trying to help, you know, a Democrat vote or a
23· ·Republican vote that might be construed as her being
24· ·partisan, so she cannot do that.· So -- but she's a
25· ·Spanish speaker and she suggested that I would be a
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 19 of 26
Page 74·1· ·good person.· At that time, I was pastoring. I knew
·2· ·her from church and she put me in touch, she was one
·3· ·of the early people that put me in touch with The
·4· ·League of Women Voters and all the nonpartisan
·5· ·organizations.· She's very involved in civic stuff
·6· ·and familiar with the issues that Hispanics face.
·7· · · · Q.· ·How about the next one, I won't --
·8· · · · A.· ·Graciela Vidal.· She's a resident of
·9· ·Chatham County and volunteers.· She does a lot of
10· ·literacy, edits books and does literacy work with
11· ·Hispanics and volunteers some and she's a little
12· ·older than I am and I recruited her often to help me
13· ·because she's an amazing editor and bilingual, so
14· ·phone banks, telling people, helping people
15· ·register.· She volunteered at Festival, she's just a
16· ·really good citizen and friend.
17· · · · Q.· ·And does she work with you in any
18· ·particular organization or --
19· · · · A.· ·The Democratic party.
20· · · · Q.· ·And how about the next one, you're doing
21· ·so good on these names.
22· · · · A.· ·Moises Weisledder.· He is an incredible
23· ·guy.· He's 83, 84 probably now.· He became a citizen
24· ·before the 2012 election, was so excited.· He is
25· ·originally from Poland and has been a citizen of
Page 75·1· ·Costa Rico and then married a Mexican lady, lived in
·2· ·Mexico for 40 years.· Her son immigrated to the
·3· ·United States, he retired and moved here and at 78,
·4· ·I think, became a citizen.· Just a lovely guy.· Read
·5· ·my name in the newspaper when he heard that I was
·6· ·running for office and he volunteered in my campaign
·7· ·and then after I got elected, we worked together to
·8· ·do voter registration and all kinds of things.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And then I see Betts Fields here.
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And I believe is he someone who
12· ·volunteered on your campaign for Chapel Hill Town
13· ·Council?
14· · · · A.· ·No, it's a she and she --
15· · · · Q.· ·Oh, she.
16· · · · A.· ·She's a member of the -- we call ourselves
17· ·the Hotties, Hispanic Outreach Team and she is a
18· ·volunteer with the Democratic Party.· Her husband
19· ·has had health issues so she did not help with the
20· ·2014 campaign.· She worked in the 2012 campaign but
21· ·was very familiar.· She may have sent a contribution
22· ·to my campaign but she did not -- she may be on the
23· ·list of my supporters but she did not -- was not
24· ·able to do a lot of actually, I don't think any
25· ·campaigning for me or for the 2014 campaign.
Page 76·1· · · · Q.· ·And what year were you first elected to
·2· ·the Chapel Hill Town Council?
·3· · · · A.· ·2013.
·4· · · · Q.· ·When are you up for election again?
·5· · · · A.· ·2017.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And how about David Mateo?
·7· · · · A.· ·He's a current pastor of the church I
·8· ·founded, Inglesia Unida de Cristo on Martin Luther
·9· ·King Boulevard in Chapel Hill and he has allowed me
10· ·to come back to the church to do a couple of voter
11· ·registration drives and also to talk to people about
12· ·local politics, who you vote, why it's not just the
13· ·president who's important, why Latinos need to vote
14· ·because our issues need to be heard by all the
15· ·parties and all the candidates and, you know, in a
16· ·nonpartisan way, I have done voter education at his
17· ·church as well as Reverend David Rodriguez.
18· · · · Q.· ·And so Reverend David Rodriguez is --
19· · · · A.· ·A pastor of another -- a different church.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And tell me about what you think he
21· ·might know that's relevant to this lawsuit?
22· · · · A.· ·I called him and he and I talked.· He's
23· ·pastor of Inglesia Internacional in Greensboro and
24· ·he has firsthand knowledge of the problems Latinos
25· ·face at the DMV, getting IDs, all the issues.· We
Page 77·1· ·had a forum at the church on -- to address the
·2· ·problems, the Sheriff of Guilford County harassing
·3· ·people, you know, trying to confiscate licenses of
·4· ·Latinos and other things and he wanted to join the
·5· ·lawsuit but didn't have enough time -- at first, it
·6· ·was an issue of presenting it to his church and then
·7· ·the people in his church were afraid that it would
·8· ·bring problems and retaliation, I think.· So he's
·9· ·aware -- we discussed the lawsuit, we discussed
10· ·issues and he has knowledge of why I'm doing this.
11· · · · Q.· ·And you said he has knowledge of why
12· ·you're doing this?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And is that knowledge based upon something
15· ·you told him?
16· · · · A.· ·No, the experiences of our parishioners
17· ·that we discussed.
18· · · · Q.· ·And you said that he has firsthand
19· ·knowledge of issues Latinos face at DMV.
20· · · · A.· ·Right.
21· · · · Q.· ·Explain what you mean by that.
22· · · · A.· ·Well, when you're a pastor of a Latino
23· ·church, you have people calling you crying saying,
24· ·you know, I can't get a license, they won't take my
25· ·papers, they won't -- they say that this is not good
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 20 of 26
Page 78·1· ·enough.· They say I have to produce my citizenship
·2· ·documentation, and, you know, even kids who are born
·3· ·in California, they're telling them well, you can't
·4· ·just bring your California license, you have to have
·5· ·a birth certificate to show that you were born in
·6· ·the U.S.· Well, they're going to call mom, you know,
·7· ·to find their birth certificate.· I mean you deal
·8· ·with immigrants from New York from different parts
·9· ·of the U.S. who come here looking for work, who the
10· ·DMV treats like they are, you know, like everything
11· ·is fake, like this can't be for real, like they're
12· ·questioning their papers and they're questioning,
13· ·you know, so it's -- he knows what problems they
14· ·face.
15· · · · · · ·"Well, where's your bill that shows your
16· ·address?"
17· · · · · · ·"Well, I'm paying for a room at somebody's
18· ·house."
19· · · · · · ·"Well, you have to bring a notarized copy
20· ·from the person that you're renting the room from
21· ·them saying that you actually live there."· You
22· ·know, things like that that you face trying to work
23· ·with the system and we talked about that and why an
24· ·ID would be so problematic, and he was on board, but
25· ·I think his church was worried about retaliation or
Page 79·1· ·problems or issues, and it was decided that I should
·2· ·go forward but he -- he couldn't or wouldn't.
·3· · · · Q.· ·So as far as you know, the problems that
·4· ·he's aware of are based upon what things his
·5· ·parishioners have told him?
·6· · · · A.· ·He's probably --
·7· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Objection, I think that
·8· · · · mischaracterizes the record.· She said that it
·9· · · · was based on firsthand knowledge.
10· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Well, I'm asking what she
11· · · · means by that and so she's said that
12· · · · parishioners have told him different things
13· · · · about their experiences, correct?
14· · · · A.· ·And he's probably accompanied them.· He --
15· ·I mean when we talked, he could think of people in
16· ·his congregation that this had happened to, so, you
17· ·know, but the problem is if you as a pastor -- I'm
18· ·here in part as an elected official and a former
19· ·pastor, but if you're a pastor, current pastor of a
20· ·congregation, you're worried about confidentiality
21· ·issues, about, you know, you're going to be put on
22· ·the stand and talk about your parishioners' problems
23· ·and, and, you know, who is worried about
24· ·undocumented status of a spouse or a, you know,
25· ·something is worried about their license.· It would
Page 80·1· ·put him in a very difficult situation and I could
·2· ·understand that.· I told him I -- I didn't want to
·3· ·pressure him to do that because he felt that having
·4· ·intimate knowledge of his parishioners' problems,
·5· ·you know, are you supposed to discuss this in a
·6· ·court of law, you know.· And so talking to his
·7· ·congregation, I think his decision was that it
·8· ·wasn't a good idea, but can tell you what exactly --
·9· ·I'm not, you know, best friends or anything, we're
10· ·just fellow pastors who have worked on The Black
11· ·Brown Coalition in Greensboro and things like that,
12· ·to address police brutality and things like that.
13· · · · Q.· · But you don't know for sure whether he's
14· ·accompanied people to DMV or not?
15· · · · A.· ·No, I don't know that For sure.
16· · · · Q.· ·And speaking of involvement in this
17· ·lawsuit, how did you become a plaintiff in this
18· ·lawsuit?
19· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· I'm going to object to the
20· · · · form of the question and instruct you not to
21· · · · answer to the extent that doing so would reveal
22· · · · privileged communications.· If your answer does
23· · · · not involve communications with your attorney,
24· · · · you're free to answer.
25· · · · A.· ·I think the main reason that I got
Page 81·1· ·involved was from my conversation with the NAACP and
·2· ·my discussions with Reverend Barber and other
·3· ·plaintiffs who were trying to figure out how the law
·4· ·would affect their constituents and from working
·5· ·with them to try to prevent the legislature from
·6· ·passing the law and gathering information for our
·7· ·legislators to understand the impact of the law, and
·8· ·calling churches and people and realizing that this
·9· ·was going to affect many, my re-election campaign,
10· ·the students that I have worked with, the people
11· ·that I have advocated for that, I could represent
12· ·them in many ways, even though I'm not currently a
13· ·pastor of a church, in my capacity as an elected
14· ·official, I could.
15· · · · Q.· ·Did someone in particular ask you to
16· ·become a plaintiff in a lawsuit?
17· · · · A.· ·I should not answer that.
18· · · · Q.· ·Did an attorney ask you to become a
19· ·plaintiff in the lawsuit?· I'm not asking what the
20· ·attorney said.
21· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Limit your answer to yes or
22· · · · no.
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And can you identify that attorney?
25· · · · A.· ·Should I?
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 21 of 26
Page 82·1· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· You can identify the
·2· · · · individual but beyond that, I instruct you not
·3· · · · to answer.
·4· · · · A.· ·Katelyn Swain.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And is Katelyn Swain with a law firm or
·6· ·with an organization?
·7· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· You can answer.
·8· · · · A.· ·The Advancement Project.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And the last person listed in
10· ·Interrogatory 20 you had identified as having
11· ·knowledge of the allegations of the Complaint is a
12· ·Chris Liu-Beers, is that how you say that?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes, he was at the time I was answering
14· ·this, the person that worked -- the minister with
15· ·the North Carolina Council of Churches that was
16· ·doing immigrant work with the churches and I did
17· ·many presentations to churches with him, workshops
18· ·on immigration, and I really don't think he knows
19· ·much, but he knows because at the time that I was
20· ·organizing against this bill, he and I were doing
21· ·workshops.· He doesn't work for the North Carolina
22· ·Council of Churches anymore, he resigned in 2014.
23· ·He does web design now.· So I -- I don't know if he
24· ·has kept up at all with this.· I don't know what he
25· ·knows now.· He knew that I was lobbying against the
Page 83·1· ·bill and what impact I thought it would have.
·2· · · · Q.· ·I'm going to hand you a document I'm going
·3· ·to mark as Exhibit 10.
·4· · · · · · ·(EXHIBIT NUMBER NAACP 10 WAS MARKED FOR
·5· ·IDENTIFICATION.)
·6· · · · Q.· ·Will you take a moment and let me know if
·7· ·you recognize this document?
·8· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And you can just let me know whenever
10· ·you're ready for some questions.
11· · · · A.· ·I recognize this, I read it again.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you recognize this document as
13· ·a declaration that you submitted earlier in this
14· ·lawsuit?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes.
16· · · · Q.· ·And do you remember signing it around
17· ·April 29 of 2014?
18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
19· · · · Q.· ·And I want to direct your attention to
20· ·Paragraph 4 of this document.· And I believe this
21· ·was signed before the 2014 primary that was held in
22· ·May; is that right?
23· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
24· · · · Q.· ·And you said in Paragraph 4 that you were
25· ·worried that a chilling effect could be created for
Page 84·1· ·many naturalized citizens during the soft rollout of
·2· ·photo ID during 2014.· Do you see that?
·3· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Objection to form, I think it
·4· · · · mischaracterizes the document.· There's a -- it
·5· · · · refers back to a preceding paragraph.
·6· · · · Q.· ·Well, the preceding paragraph states that
·7· ·your legal documents that you obtained in the United
·8· ·States did not match other legal documents such as a
·9· ·birth certificate, is that fair?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·And you also reference the fact that some
12· ·Latinos have discrepancies between the names that
13· ·appear on some of their legal documents and the
14· ·names that appear on other documents; is that right?
15· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
16· · · · Q.· ·And I believe in Paragraph 4 you stated
17· ·that you were worried that that would have a
18· ·chilling effect on citizens during this soft rollout
19· ·of photo ID in the 2014 elections; is that right?
20· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
21· · · · Q.· ·And what was the soft rollout photo ID
22· ·that you were referring to there?
23· · · · A.· ·There was some confusion and I think
24· ·that's reflected on my answer.· I know that they
25· ·asked people if they had a photo ID, and so I can't
Page 85·1· ·tell you how many people I called from the voter
·2· ·list that -- to tell them, you know, are you
·3· ·planning to vote?· Do you need transportation?· That
·4· ·said I've heard I have to have an ID that I have to
·5· ·show.· And I had to say, reassure them that no, that
·6· ·they would be asked but they could say yes and not
·7· ·show their ID.· So it created the perception that
·8· ·IDs were needed.· That was a very generalized
·9· ·misconception, which is why those little information
10· ·mini brochures, whatever you called them were so
11· ·important in giving them out to people at fairs and
12· ·putting then out at the tiendas saying you do not
13· ·need to show your ID.· But I knew that just passing
14· ·the law and having that requirement now in the law
15· ·was going to have a chilling effect.· I think that's
16· ·what I meant.· I don't know exactly what I meant by
17· ·soft rollout.· I know I heard that word a lot and
18· ·now thinking back, I probably understood better than
19· ·what I'm thinking now in looking back.
20· · · · Q.· ·Do you know if there was in fact a
21· ·chilling effect in the 2014 elections?
22· · · · A.· ·We saw less participation of Latinos in
23· ·2014 than in 2012.· I do think in part that was due
24· ·to the misunderstandings and the misconceptions that
25· ·there was a new scary law.· It had been in all the
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 22 of 26
Page 86·1· ·newspapers.· There was all the debate about same day
·2· ·registration and there was all the, you know, I do
·3· ·think people stayed home.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Now, 2012 was a presidential election
·5· ·year, right?
·6· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
·7· · · · Q.· ·So based upon your experiences, are
·8· ·generally higher participation in presidential
·9· ·election years rather than midterm election years?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes, but Latinos were mad at Obama because
11· ·of the -- not passing immigration reform, so I don't
12· ·think it -- I -- I think it's been -- it was a
13· ·big -- a big election for North Carolina, I mean,
14· ·the Senate race was in all the newspapers.· Yeah,
15· ·usually you have more people turning out for
16· ·presidential elections but when you call people and
17· ·they ask you, the first thing they ask you is about
18· ·the ID, you know that it is having some effect.
19· · · · Q.· ·Do you know about the rate of
20· ·participation of Hispanic and Latino voters in 2014
21· ·as compared to 2010, which was the last midterm
22· ·election?
23· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Objection to form.
24· · · · A.· ·No, actually, I can't say I did that
25· ·comparison.
Page 87·1· · · · Q.· ·And in the last sentence in Paragraph 4
·2· ·you say that, "Immigrants with the proper photo ID
·3· ·may also be fearful that if the person inspecting
·4· ·the photo ID perceives any irregularities, the photo
·5· ·ID will be confiscated and they will lose it."· What
·6· ·is the basis for that statement?
·7· · · · A.· ·Things like happened to my friend Mya,
·8· ·experiences with the DMV refusing to accept papers
·9· ·that they don't understand that are legitimate, you
10· ·know, saying "Well, this doesn't count.· I don't
11· ·know what it is," because it's a birth certificate
12· ·from another country or things like that.· I mean
13· ·having people lose their license and go to get a
14· ·duplicate like in the case of the lady I accompanied
15· ·and being told no, you can't have it.· Well, what if
16· ·somebody at this poling place decides that this
17· ·license is fake, because I don't look like my
18· ·picture anymore, because I died my hair blond, would
19· ·they have the authority to keep my license?· There
20· ·is a distrust of governmental offices and a fear,
21· ·you know.
22· · · · Q.· ·But the only two specific instances you
23· ·are aware of was the incident with Ms. Sanchez that
24· ·we talked about earlier, right, and the incident
25· ·that you said occurred in 2005 that involved the
Page 88·1· ·sit-in that you were --
·2· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
·3· · · · Q.· ·-- talking about?
·4· · · · A.· ·No, I'm aware of a lot of instances of
·5· ·people not being able to renew their licenses and
·6· ·having to go back home for documents or having to go
·7· ·to Raleigh or to an embassy, a Columbian friend who
·8· ·had to go to Washington D.C. after her divorce. I
·9· ·mean it's just -- you'd be amazed at the trouble
10· ·people have.· If you wanted to document problems
11· ·with the DMV, I think that would be probably a good
12· ·case for discrimination and harassment but, you
13· ·know, that's a different story, but it really --
14· ·it's pervasive, it's pervasive.
15· · · · Q.· ·And are there any other specific instances
16· ·that you can recall sitting here today?
17· · · · A.· ·Not right now, sorry, not with a name and
18· ·a time.
19· · · · Q.· ·With respect to your own driver's license
20· ·and the name issue that we spoke about earlier, have
21· ·you made any efforts so far to try to get to the
22· ·Teresa included in your name on your license?
23· · · · A.· ·I have to, I need to but, you know, Social
24· ·Security Office is in Durham and it takes time, it's
25· ·probably going to be a whole morning, so I'm going
Page 89·1· ·to before the elections for sure but no, I have -- I
·2· ·have not.· I keep trusting that hey, they wouldn't
·3· ·turn me away or no, this is not going to be a big
·4· ·issue but I need to make myself do it.
·5· · · · Q.· ·I'm going to refer your attention to
·6· ·Paragraph 20 of this declaration.
·7· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And I think in the last sentence you
·9· ·mention that many Latinos attend church on Saturday
10· ·or Sunday, and it's during these church services
11· ·that shared rides to voting are coordinated.· Do you
12· ·see that?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
14· · · · Q.· ·And so is that part of Souls to the Poles
15· ·or is that something else?
16· · · · A.· ·Well, that's what most African American
17· ·churches call it.· Obviously, Hispanic church
18· ·wouldn't call it Souls to the Poles since most
19· ·everything is in Spanish but I did -- when you have
20· ·people who are voting, so many -- voting -- who are
21· ·working so many days and so many shifts, carving out
22· ·time for church is really important for the family,
23· ·at least, of course as a pastor, I felt like it and
24· ·when it becomes important for a family, it takes a
25· ·lot of energy to get your work situation arranged so
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 23 of 26
Page 90·1· ·that you can actually go to church on a regular
·2· ·basis.· So you're already using the time off you
·3· ·have and the little leverage you have to get time
·4· ·off, to get time off for that activity and
·5· ·coordinate that with your children and your wife and
·6· ·so to carve out a different time, an additional time
·7· ·when there are limited days and limited power of the
·8· ·individual to say I will take time off this day or I
·9· ·can't -- can I have time off.· The fewer days you
10· ·have to vote, and the fewer different days you have
11· ·to vote becomes an issue, because it's harder to
12· ·match, you know, the day off you have and the
13· ·opportunity to vote with those days, so the more
14· ·Saturdays and Sundays you have.
15· · · · · · ·Also a lot of information, like I
16· ·mentioned earlier is by word of mouth and so if you
17· ·go to church on Sunday and you find out oh, this is
18· ·early voting, this is, you know, there's going to be
19· ·transportation available, if there's not another
20· ·weekend for you to vote and your schedule's already
21· ·out, you're working your two jobs, you know, Monday
22· ·through Friday, you have to pick up kids from
23· ·school, you have to do this, it becomes very
24· ·difficult.· So yes, but Souls to the Poles is a
25· ·great program that I have copied.· Orange County
Page 91·1· ·does not make it easy for, you know, churches to do
·2· ·this.· Greensboro was much better, Guilford County.
·3· ·And we asked for Sunday voting but we didn't get a
·4· ·poling place on campus, we didn't get, you know,
·5· ·there are a lot of things that are becoming harder
·6· ·and harder.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And that was here in Orange County?
·8· · · · A.· ·In 2014, yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And who makes the decision about whether
10· ·there is Sunday voting and dates and times of early
11· ·voting and so on?
12· · · · A.· ·The Board of Elections -- there are three
13· ·people that are selected.
14· · · · Q.· ·And based upon your experience with
15· ·Hispanic and Latino churches, I know you said you
16· ·worked with a couple and you were a former pastor.
17· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
18· · · · Q.· ·What days of the week do they typically
19· ·have services?
20· · · · A.· ·A Sunday, but there is a Hispanic Destigo
21· ·Sabiot Crunch that has services on Saturday, so
22· ·Saturday and Sunday, weekends.· Many churches have
23· ·services in the afternoon because they share
24· ·buildings or facilities with Anglo churches, yes.
25· · · · Q.· ·I'm going to ask you about one more
Page 92·1· ·document here.· I'm going to mark -- I think we're
·2· ·up to Exhibit 11.
·3· · · · · · ·(EXHIBIT NUMBER NAACP 11 WAS MARKED FOR
·4· ·IDENTIFICATION.)
·5· · · · Q.· ·I just want to ask you about what this
·6· ·document is, if you recognize it.· I'll represent to
·7· ·you this is a document that was produced to us by
·8· ·your attorneys and has your name at the top, so
·9· ·that's why I was asking you about it.
10· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.
11· · · · Q.· ·If you want to take a moment and look at
12· ·it and let me know if you're ready for some
13· ·questions, that will be great.
14· · · · A.· ·All right.
15· · · · Q.· ·At the top of the page it says WCHL
16· ·Commentary, do you see that?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·What does that refer to?
19· · · · A.· ·It's a radio station, a.m. radio station
20· ·here in Chapel Hill.
21· · · · Q.· ·And what is this document?· Is this
22· ·something you wrote?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And so for what purpose did you
25· ·write this?
Page 93·1· · · · A.· ·To get people motivated to vote.
·2· · · · Q.· ·And this was a commentary that you gave on
·3· ·the radio?
·4· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
·5· · · · Q.· ·The WCHL station here in Chapel Hill?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And you gave this commentary before the
·8· ·2012 elections?
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Okay.· I don't think I have
11· · · · any further questions for Ms. Palmer at this
12· · · · time.
13· · · · · · ·MR. MANER:· Why don't we go off the record
14· · · · for just a minute?
15· · · · · · ·(WHEREUPON A SHORT RECESS IS TAKEN.)
16· · · · · EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PLAINTIFFS
17· · · · · · · BY MR. MANER:
18· · · · Q.· ·Back on the record.
19· · · · · · ·Ms. Palmer, I just have a couple of very
20· ·short questions and then we should be finished.
21· · · · A.· ·Okay.
22· · · · Q.· ·You've mentioned or you've used the term
23· ·"immigrant" a few times throughout your testimony
24· ·today.
25· · · · A.· ·Okay.
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-46 Filed 07/08/15 Page 24 of 26
Page 94·1· · · · Q.· ·When you use that term, are you referring
·2· ·to people who immigrated to the U.S. and became
·3· ·naturalized citizens?
·4· · · · A.· ·Yes, and for the purpose of these -- of
·5· ·these questions, I was talking about voters who are
·6· ·citizens, who in the case of immigrants have to go
·7· ·through naturalization to become citizens.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Shifting gears a little bit, you
·9· ·mentioned a few times in your testimony earlier
10· ·today that you've engaged in Get Out To Vote
11· ·Efforts, Voter Outreach and specifically that you've
12· ·taken voters to the poles so that they could vote.
13· ·In doing that, how did you determine which poling
14· ·place to take those individuals to vote?
15· · · · A.· ·Well, if they could tell me where they had
16· ·voted before, that was helpful.· If not, I would
17· ·look up their address.· There's a website, I tried
18· ·to know ahead of time who I was taking and where I
19· ·was picking them up so I could look up.· The Board
20· ·of Elections has a map and you can put in an address
21· ·and it tells you the precinct.· In fact, you can
22· ·look up the person's registration and it tells you
23· ·where they should vote.
24· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever intentionally taken someone
25· ·to the incorrect precinct so they could vote?
Page 95·1· ·A.· ·No.
·2· · · · MR. MANER:· Okay.· I don't have any
·3· ·further questions, unless there's any redirect.
·4· · · · MR. McKNIGHT:· No, none for me.
·5· · · · MR. MANER:· Anyone else have any
·6· ·questions?
·7· · · · MS. GREENE: I have no questions.
·8· · · · MR. MANER:· Thank you so much for your
·9· ·time.
10· · · · (WHEREUPON THE DEPOSITION IS CONCLUDED AT
11· ·12:07 P.M.)
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14· · · ·I, Maria Teresa Unger Palmer, have read the foregoing
15· ·deposition and hereby affix my signature that same is true
16· ·and correct, except as noted above.
17
18· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · _______________________________
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Maria Teresa Unger Palmer
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20
21· ·Sworn to and subscribed before me
22· ·________________________________,Notary Public.
23· ·This________day of_____________________, 2015.
24· ·My Commission Expires:__________________________
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Page 99·1· · · · · · · · · C E R T I F I C A T E
·2· · · · ·I, Lynn A. Ruggiro, Shorthand Reporter and Notary
·3· ·Public, do hereby certify that the above-named witness was
·4· ·duly sworn by my prior to the taking of the foregoing
·5· ·deposition; and that said deposition was taken and
·6· ·transcribed under my supervision; and that the foregoing
·7· ·pages, inclusive, constitute a true and accurate
·8· ·transcription of the testimony of the witness.
·9· · · · I do further certify that the persons were present as
10· ·stated in the caption.
11· · · · I do further certify that I am not of counsel for or in
12· ·the employment of any of the parties to this action, nor am
13· ·I interested in the results of this action.
14· · · ·IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto subscribed my name
15· ·this 18th day of March, 2015.
16
17
18· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · _____________________________
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Lynn A. Ruggiro
19· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Notary Public No. 20030830270
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YOLANDA M. PAYLOR April 30, 2015
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1 (Pages 1 to 4)
1
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
NORTH CAROLINA STATE )
CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, )
et al., )
)
Plaintiffs, )
)
vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-658
)
PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his )
official capacity as the )
Governor of North Carolina, )
et al., )
)
Defendants. )
)
)
LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )
NORTH CAROLINA, et al., )
)
Plaintiffs, )
)
vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-660
)
THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )
et al., )
)
Defendants. )
)
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )
)
Plaintiff, )
)
vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-861
)
THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )
et al., )
)
Defendants. )
________________________________
DEPOSITION OF
YOLANDA M. PAYLOR
2
1 DEPOSITION OF
2 YOLANDA M. PAYLOR
3 ___________________________________________________
4 10:20 a.m.
5 Thursday, April 30, 2015
6 ___________________________________________________
7
RENAISSANCE ASHEVILLE HOTEL
8
31 WOODFIN STREET
9
ASHEVILLE, NORTH CAROLINA
10
11
12
13 By: Cindy A. Hayden, RMR-CRR
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S2
3 Counsel for the United States of America Plaintiffs:4
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE5 BY: AVNER SHAPIRO, ESQ.
950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.6 Washington, DC 20530
(800) 305-18407 [email protected]
Counsel for Defendant Patrick Lloyd McCrory:9
BOWERS LAW OFFICE10 BY: BUTCH BOWERS, ESQ.
1419 Pendleton Street11 Columbia, SC 29201
(803) 753-109912 [email protected]
Reported By:14
DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS15 AND LEGAL VIDEOGRAPHER
BY: CINDY A. HAYDEN, RMR-CRR16 4208 Six Forks Road
Suite 100017 Raleigh, NC 27609
(919) 649-999818 [email protected]
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1 I N D E X
2 PAGE
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. BOWERS 5
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5 E X H I B I T S
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Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-47 Filed 07/08/15 Page 1 of 13
YOLANDA M. PAYLOR April 30, 2015
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2 (Pages 5 to 8)
5
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 * * * * * *
3 YOLANDA M. PAYLOR,
4 having been first duly sworn or affirmed by the
5 Certified Shorthand Reporter to tell the truth,
6 the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
7 testified as follows:
8 EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. BOWERS:
10 Q. Ms. Paylor, good morning.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. We met earlier this morning, but for the record,
13 my name is Butch Bowers. I'm a lawyer from
14 Columbia, South Carolina, and I represent Governor
15 McCrory in the litigation that brings us here
16 today.
17 Have you ever had your deposition taken
18 before?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So this is the first time?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. So let's go over a few ground rules.
23 MR. SHAPIRO: If I may interrupt, I may
24 just get my name on the record.
25 MR. BOWERS: Oh, I'm sorry.
6
1 MR. SHAPIRO: No problem. I'm Avner
2 Shapiro. I'm an attorney representing the United
3 States, which is one of the plaintiffs in this
4 matter. Sorry to interrupt.
5 MR. BOWERS: That's quite all right.
6 Pardon my rudeness for not asking you to put your
7 name on the record.
8 BY MR. BOWERS:
9 Q. So, Ms. Paylor, your first deposition, so some of
10 the ground rules are quite simple. Whenever I ask
11 a question or if Mr. Shapiro asks a question, let
12 us finish the question before you answer.
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. That way it's easier for the court reporter to
15 take down everything that we say.
16 Secondly, make sure that you give verbal
17 responses instead of uh-huh or un-hun or, you
18 know -- or a head nod.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So just verbal responses so she can take them down
21 for the transcript.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. Is that fair?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. If you ever need to take a break during the
7
1 deposition -- this should not take terribly long,
2 but if you need to take a break at any point, just
3 say, "Can we take a break?" And we will. The
4 only thing I would ask is that if you have -- if
5 there's a question pending and you want to take a
6 break, answer that question first and then we'll
7 take a break, okay?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. All right. Tell us, please, ma'am, your full
10 name.
11 A. Yolanda Marie Paylor.
12 Q. And Ms. Paylor, what's your date of birth?
13 A. 1990.
14 Q. And where do you currently reside?
15 A. I live here in Asheville.
16 Q. What's your address?
17 A. 349 Haw Creek Mews Drive, Asheville, North
18 Carolina 20 -- 28805.
19 Q. Is that Buncombe County?
20 A. Yes, it's Buncombe County.
21 Q. How long have you resided at that address?
22 A. I moved in June of last year.
23 Q. Okay. So in June of 2014 you moved to the current
24 address?
25 A. Yes.
8
1 Q. Okay. Where did you move from?
2 A. I moved from Carrboro, North Carolina. It's ten
3 minutes outside of Chapel Hill.
4 Q. And what county is that in?
5 A. Orange County.
6 Q. Okay. How long did you live in Orange County?
7 A. I lived in Orange County this past time for two
8 years. I had moved there two years prior.
9 Q. Okay. How about this, it might be easier to do it
10 this way, starting when you were 18 years old, so
11 you -- if my math is right, you're 25 now?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. So starting when you were 18, tell me
14 where -- where you've resided and for how long.
15 A. So at 18 I moved from Orange County, my parents'
16 home, to Forsyth County where I went to undergrad.
17 Q. And where was that?
18 A. Winston-Salem State University.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. And then I stayed there four years and then moved
21 back to Orange County to go to medical school at
22 UNC-Chapel Hill, which is in Orange County again.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. And then I stayed there two years and moved out
25 here for this past year to Buncombe County.
REDACTED
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9
1 Q. Okay. I should have asked you this earlier. Are
2 you represented by an attorney here in this
3 deposition?
4 A. As far as I know, I'm represented by -- no, I'm
5 not.
6 MR. SHAPIRO: The answer to that is no, she
7 is not represented.
8 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not. Sorry.
9 MR. SHAPIRO: She's a third-party witness.
10 BY MR. BOWERS:
11 Q. Okay. Do you have a lawyer?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. What did you do to prepare for today's
14 deposition?
15 A. I just met Mr. Shapiro yesterday and then he came
16 in today.
17 Q. Okay. What did y'all discuss?
18 A. We talked about what will happen today and just
19 the main points of being truthful and just getting
20 me through my first deposition, since I had never
21 done -- so just informing me about what would be
22 going on today.
23 Q. Okay. Did y'all talk about this lawsuit?
24 A. We talked about my experiences at the poll.
25 Q. Okay. And I'll ask you some questions about that
10
1 in a little bit.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. How did you become aware of this lawsuit?
4 A. I received a phone call informing me about my vote
5 not counting.
6 Q. Who called you to tell you that?
7 A. It was -- her name was Joy, and she was part of
8 the cold calling committee. I don't -- I don't
9 know exactly her title, but it was someone with
10 the -- Mr. Shapiro.
11 Q. Was it somebody with the Justice Department?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. When did you receive that call?
14 A. It was in March, maybe around March 10th because I
15 was at the travel clinic getting vaccinations to
16 go abroad.
17 Q. Okay. So just four or six weeks ago?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. Before you got that call, had you heard or
20 read about this lawsuit that brings us here today?
21 A. I had heard things, but I didn't know that it was
22 something that was actually happening. I had
23 heard something about IDs being required, but that
24 was the extent of my knowledge before.
25 Q. Have you seen any documents related to this
11
1 lawsuit?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. Have you seen your deposition notice?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. Do you know who all the parties are in the
6 lawsuit?
7 A. I believe I know it's -- I just know some of the
8 plaintiffs, which is the NAACP --
9 Q. Tell me --
10 A. -- the U.S. and the -- and that's about all I
11 know.
12 Q. Okay. That's fine. And it's not a memory test.
13 I'm just, you know -- this is my opportunity -- my
14 one opportunity to ask you under oath questions,
15 and so what I'm trying to do is just find out your
16 knowledge about the lawsuit in general and about
17 the issues in the lawsuit.
18 Do you know who the defendants are?
19 A. No, I don't.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. I'm sorry.
22 Q. That's okay. Did you have any knowledge -- do
23 you -- strike that.
24 Do you know what the lawsuit is about?
25 A. It's about changes in voter registration
12
1 requirements and procedures, as far as I know.
2 Q. Okay. And that's -- the only thing you can
3 testify to is as far as you know. So that's fine.
4 Do you know when those changes were
5 implemented?
6 A. No. I didn't even know they had been implemented
7 until I received that phone call.
8 Q. Okay. So you graduated from Winston-Salem
9 State --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- correct? Where did you go to high school?
12 A. Orange High School in Orange County.
13 Q. Okay. And then did you -- did you go to medical
14 school immediately after undergrad?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. Okay. And you were at Chapel Hill in medical
17 school there at UNC Medical School?
18 A. Yes. I'm currently still there, but it's just a
19 partnership with MAHEC, the education system out
20 here in Asheville.
21 Q. Okay. So you were -- tell me about your -- I'm
22 interested in your -- your medical education. So
23 is it -- does it still take four year to graduate
24 medical school?
25 A. It does still take four years. So -- I took a
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13
1 sabbatical this past year, and so I'll be starting
2 my third year in July and then I'll have another
3 year after that.
4 Q. Okay. So you finished your -- excuse me. You
5 finished your second year of medical school?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When did you finish that?
8 A. I finished that -- the coursework was finished in
9 June of 2013, last year.
10 Q. 2014?
11 A. Yes, 2014, yes.
12 Q. Okay. So you took a sabbatical?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And moved to Buncombe County?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Because we have a longitudinal program, so UNC
18 students that go into the longitudinal track here
19 in Asheville, we move to Asheville versus doing
20 small rotations throughout the state; we do them
21 all here in Asheville, so I moved under the
22 assumption that I would be starting my third year
23 last year, but I ended up not, and so I just
24 stayed out here --
25 Q. Okay.
14
1 A. -- since I was going to start in July.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. -- of this year.
4 Q. Tell me what a longitudinal program is.
5 A. So the longitudinal program is basically you go to
6 various clinics, and you have all your rotations
7 throughout the year versus an eight-week stint, a
8 six-week stint of different specialties, like
9 normally it would be eight weeks of neurology, six
10 weeks of OB/GYN; that's like the traditional
11 track, but the longitudinal track we do them all
12 year.
13 Q. And is it always in Asheville or is it all over
14 the state?
15 A. It's always in Asheville or surrounding areas of
16 Asheville.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. And does that count as your third year of medical
20 school?
21 A. Yes, it does.
22 Q. Okay. And then for your fourth year of medical
23 school what will you do?
24 A. So as a longitudinal student you have the option
25 of staying here another year or returning back to
15
1 Chapel Hill.
2 Q. What are you going to do?
3 A. I don't know yet. I don't like moving, so I might
4 stay. I don't know.
5 Q. Okay. And then how many -- how many students, if
6 you know, do the longitudinal program versus the
7 traditional track?
8 A. At Chapel Hill?
9 Q. At Chapel Hill?
10 A. There's 20 of us out here in Asheville. Ten are
11 in Charlotte and then ten do the traditional
12 program in Charlotte and then the other 150 do the
13 traditional program in Chapel Hill.
14 Q. Is it competitive to get into the longitudinal
15 program?
16 A. It can be. There were quite a few applicants this
17 year or the year that I applied, but yeah, it can
18 be competitive.
19 Q. What -- what do you want to do when you graduate
20 medical school?
21 A. I want to practice family medicine.
22 Q. Okay. And are you getting -- will you get that
23 experience in the longitudinal program?
24 A. Yes. We have a family medicine preceptor once a
25 week that we are with and then residency and then
16
1 I'll be on my own as a physician.
2 Q. What did you major in in college?
3 A. Biology.
4 Q. Did you always know you wanted to go to medical
5 school?
6 A. I know I wanted to do something in the medical
7 profession, but it definitely became a physician
8 in undergrad. I definitely knew that's what I
9 wanted to do.
10 Q. Do you have any family members who are physicians?
11 A. No, and I'm also a first generation college
12 student.
13 Q. Excellent. Are you registered to vote?
14 A. Yes, as of now.
15 Q. What do you mean as of now?
16 A. I thought I had registered because I had sent in
17 my information with a voter registration person
18 when they come in, but through a turn of events I
19 actually was not registered, so I had to do the
20 provisional.
21 Q. When did you think you had registered to vote?
22 A. It's on my Instagram. Do you know what Instagram
23 is? I took a picture.
24 Q. Do I look that old that I wouldn't know what
25 Instagram is?
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17
1 A. I'm so sorry. But it was sometime around the
2 beginning of the school year, because I had just
3 started volunteering at a -- at a center that
4 helped kids with tutoring, so school had just
5 started for them. So it was around -- school
6 starts in like August or September.
7 Q. Sort of around August of 2014?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. Had you been registered to vote prior to
10 that?
11 A. Yes, in Orange County.
12 Q. Okay. When is the first time in your life you
13 registered to vote?
14 A. I was 18, and it was in Orange County when I first
15 registered.
16 Q. Okay. Did you register to vote in person; do you
17 recall?
18 A. I do believe that I did. I went and -- well, I
19 believe I registered and voted the same day
20 because there was a local election going on, and I
21 felt proud to be voting in my first election.
22 That's if my memory serves me right.
23 Q. Okay. And then when you went to college at -- and
24 what county did you tell me, Winston-Salem?
25 A. Forsyth.
18
1 Q. Forsyth County.
2 When you went to college, did you change
3 your voter registration address to your school
4 address or did you keep it at your parents' home
5 in Orange County?
6 A. I changed it to my school address.
7 Q. Okay. And did you vote while you were in college?
8 A. I did. I did vote.
9 Q. Okay. Do you remember like every single election
10 or do you recall?
11 A. I recall voting places, and so that's how I
12 remember.
13 Q. What do you mean vote --
14 A. Like I remember where I voted. I can visualize
15 the place.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. So then that's how I know how many times I voted.
18 Q. Okay. How many times do you think you voted while
19 you were in college?
20 A. While I was in college?
21 Q. Yes, ma'am.
22 A. I would say two. I think two.
23 Q. Okay. What were the years you were in college?
24 A. I was enrolled from 2012 to 2000 -- no. 2008 to
25 2012. Excuse me.
19
1 Q. Okay. And the two times that you voted, were
2 those the presidential election?
3 A. The first was --
4 Q. Elections, plural, excuse me.
5 A. The first was in -- was the Obama/McCain -- yes,
6 and the second I believe was just a local
7 election.
8 Q. Okay. Did you have any trouble voting in those
9 elections?
10 A. No. I believe I had changed my voter registration
11 and then voted that day because I had moved, so I
12 had to change my county.
13 Q. Okay. Did you know that you could keep your
14 parents' address as your -- as your registered
15 voting address at that time?
16 A. I'm not certain.
17 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Assumes facts not
18 in evidence and foundation.
19 BY MR. BOWERS:
20 Q. And that's -- Ms. Paylor, that's one other thing I
21 should have told you at the outside; if you
22 hear either one of us -- like when he's asking
23 questions and if you hear me start speaking, stop
24 and let us finish. If you -- while I'm asking you
25 questions, if you hear Mr. Shapiro speak, just go
20
1 ahead and stop and let him get his objection on
2 the record, okay?
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. All right. Now -- so you can go ahead and answer.
5 He's -- his objection is noted for the record.
6 A. Okay. Could you repeat the question?
7 Q. Sure. Did you consider -- I'll rephrase it.
8 Did you consider keeping your voter
9 registration address at your parents' address in
10 Orange County when you went off to college?
11 A. I did not consider that, I don't believe, because
12 I had a mailing address on campus, and so I
13 figured why not just go ahead and register in that
14 county.
15 Q. How did you know to register -- that you had to
16 change your voter registration address to that
17 county if you wanted to use that address as your
18 home address?
19 A. I think it was because the election was coming up
20 and the students -- the SGA or Student Government
21 Association was informing people of things, and so
22 the consensus that most people were going to do is
23 just change the -- the address because it would be
24 easier. We could vote right on campus.
25 Q. Okay. So was there like a voter registration
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21
1 drive or something like that where the student
2 government makes it known to folks that, hey, if
3 you want to -- if you want -- students, if you
4 want to register here, you can? Was it something
5 like that or it was just known?
6 A. I think -- it wasn't like an organized thing. It
7 was just word of mouth via campus, and I'm pretty
8 sure it had to start with SGA because they know
9 everything, but I think that, if I can remember
10 correctly what I was facing at that time was
11 absentee ballot or register here, and I think that
12 was the extent of my knowledge at the time. I was
13 like, do I send in -- and I didn't feel like
14 dealing with all that. So I just was like, I'll
15 register in the county that I'm living in.
16 Q. Okay. So, when you finished college in 2012,
17 remind me again where -- where did you move to?
18 A. I moved back to Orange County.
19 Q. Back to Orange County, okay. And did you change
20 your voter registration address back to Orange
21 County?
22 A. I did, yes, and it was in 2012 that I changed it
23 back.
24 Q. Okay. And so you were there in Orange County from
25 2012 until June of 2014; did I get that timeline
22
1 right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. Did you ever vote in Orange County after
4 you had finished college?
5 A. I did. I voted in the second Obama election.
6 Q. Okay. So by November of 2012 you had moved back
7 to Orange County and I guess started medical
8 school, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Did you have any trouble voting then?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. Did you -- did you register and vote on the
13 same day in that election?
14 A. In that election someone came to my house and --
15 it was a voter registration drive thing.
16 Q. Okay. And tell me about that. Somebody just
17 showed up at your door and said, "hey, do you want
18 to register to vote or are you registered to
19 vote?"
20 A. That was exactly it, uh-huh.
21 Q. Okay. And you said something along the lines of,
22 "I am, but I've just moved"? Or how did that --
23 how did that conversation go, if you recall?
24 A. I -- I said that I had moved and I'm registered,
25 but I'm not registered in this county and I would
23
1 like to.
2 Q. And did they have the paperwork for you to fill
3 out?
4 A. Yes, they did.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. And I filled it out and gave it back.
7 Q. Okay. And then who was it that was doing the
8 drive; do you know?
9 A. I don't remember.
10 Q. Did they tell you -- was it like with the Obama
11 campaign or with the Romney campaign or a
12 political party or you just don't know?
13 A. I don't remember.
14 Q. Okay. And then you gave it back to them and you
15 just hoped that they would get it submitted
16 properly?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. And they did because I was able to vote.
20 Q. Okay. Did you vote anytime in Orange County after
21 the 2012 presidential election?
22 A. I don't believe so.
23 Q. Okay. Then you moved here to Buncombe County?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. And did you -- you're an old pro at
24
1 changing your voter registration to match your
2 county of residence by this point. So did you --
3 did you think about changing your home of
4 residence for voting purposes when you moved here?
5 A. I did.
6 Q. Okay. When did you do that?
7 A. That was around the time school started because
8 there was another person who had the voter
9 registration form.
10 Q. Who was that?
11 A. It was someone that was doing it for someone at
12 MAHEC. They weren't -- it was just like a -- just
13 a person doing a good deed type of thing, I guess,
14 if that makes sense. They weren't affiliated with
15 anything.
16 Q. What is MAHEC?
17 A. Oh, I'm sorry.
18 Q. That's okay.
19 A. The Mountain Area Health Education Center.
20 Q. And is MAHEC part of UNC medical school?
21 A. They are who UNC medical school is partnering with
22 to allow the 20 students to come out here.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. They do have residency programs; MAHEC has
25 residency programs.
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25
1 Q. Okay. And so someone at MAHEC -- tell me about
2 how you became aware of the opportunity to change
3 your voter registration at MAHEC.
4 A. So where I volunteer -- the gentleman that is over
5 the coordination of where I volunteer, he was
6 asked to do it by an employee at MAHEC, and so she
7 was just trying to get high school -- newly
8 18-year-olds to register to vote. So it was
9 easier because he worked with high school
10 students, so she was asking him, and because I
11 volunteered there, he had an extra form and I
12 filled it -- filled it out.
13 Q. Okay. And you gave it to him?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And then what did he do with it?
16 A. He informed me that he submitted it directly to
17 the Board of Elections.
18 Q. Okay. But you didn't take it yourself?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And did you ever get any independent documentation
21 from the Board of Elections notifying you that it
22 had been changed?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Okay. How about back in 2012 when you -- when you
25 got it changed -- I think you testified that in
26
1 2012 somebody came to your door in Orange County?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. It was a voter registration drive?
4 A. Uh-huh. Yes. I'm sorry.
5 Q. That's okay. You filled out a form, right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And gave it to this person?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. And then you trusted that they would submit
10 it to the Board of Elections?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did -- and apparently they did because you were
13 able to vote, correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. My question is then: Did you get anything
16 from the Board of Elections like a new voter
17 registration card in the mail?
18 A. I believe I did.
19 Q. Okay. Back in 2012?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. And now I'll fast forward to 2014 when you
22 registered at MAHEC or not at MAHEC but you filled
23 out the paperwork there?
24 A. Right. Yes.
25 Q. And you gave it to -- do you remember the guy's
27
1 name that you gave it to?
2 A. Yes. It was Preston Stephon Roach.
3 Q. Preston Stephon Roach?
4 A. Uh-huh. Yes.
5 Q. Is that R-O-A-C-H-E?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. Do you still -- do you still stay in
8 contact with him?
9 A. Every now and then.
10 Q. Okay. Was he -- is he a medical student also?
11 A. No. He's a -- he's just a program coordinator at
12 the nonprofit that I used to volunteer.
13 Q. Okay. And what was the time frame when he -- when
14 you filled out that paperwork and gave it to
15 Mr. Roach?
16 A. Somewhere between August and September of 2014.
17 Q. So when school was starting?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. And did you ever get a voter -- a new voter
20 registration card from the Buncombe County Board
21 of Elections?
22 A. Not that I recall. Not that I recall.
23 Q. Okay. Since you did get one in 2012 when you
24 changed your county of residence, did you not
25 think about, well, wait a minute; I need to get a
28
1 new voter registration card in 2014?
2 A. Well, with the change of address and sometimes
3 getting other people's mail, I didn't -- I didn't
4 even think about it. I just assumed it was coming
5 because sometimes they aren't -- they had been
6 delayed, and I did get one -- I didn't -- I didn't
7 get one. I'm sorry.
8 Q. Okay. So you -- from whenever it was, August or
9 September until November when the election came
10 around, did you ever contact the Board of
11 Elections and say, "Hey, I just want to check on
12 my registration"?
13 A. I did -- I did not.
14 Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Roach, "Hey, did you fill
15 out -- did you submit that paperwork?"
16 A. I did.
17 Q. And what did he say?
18 A. And he -- he said he did.
19 Q. Okay. Okay. So you -- did you -- when did you go
20 to vote in 2014? Was it on Election Day, or was
21 it during early voting, or do you recall?
22 A. It was during early voting, most likely on a
23 Saturday or Friday before November 4th.
24 Q. Did you -- were you concerned that you were
25 showing up to vote in a new county? Because you
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29
1 hadn't voted in Buncombe County, had you?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. Did you -- were you concerned at all that
4 you were showing up to vote in a new county and
5 you didn't have a voter registration card?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You weren't?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Why not?
10 A. Because I had assumed that everything was
11 copacetic.
12 Q. Okay. But you didn't do anything to independently
13 verify that everything was copacetic, did you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. So you showed up to vote on you think it
16 was a Saturday, pretty sure it was a Saturday?
17 A. A Saturday or a Friday.
18 Q. Okay. Was it -- let's assume it was a Saturday
19 just for purposes of this question, and it doesn't
20 really matter, but was it the first Saturday of
21 early voting or was it the last Saturday of early
22 voting right before the election; do you know what
23 I mean?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Like Election Day is on a Tuesday. Do you recall?
30
1 A. I don't recall if it was -- I want to say that it
2 was the Saturday before November 4th, like that
3 first Saturday before, but I'm not 100 percent
4 about that.
5 Q. Okay. But your -- your best recollection is it
6 probably was two or three days before Election Day
7 and not ten days before Election Day, but you're
8 not sure either way?
9 A. No, but I don't think it was in the earlier part
10 of early voting registration --
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. -- or early voting.
13 Q. Okay. So you showed up to vote. Did you have to
14 wait very long; do you recall?
15 A. I didn't have to wait very long to check in.
16 Q. Okay. And then what happened?
17 A. The lady -- or the poll worker said that my name
18 wasn't on the list, and so she sent me to another
19 poll worker.
20 Q. Did you -- what did you say?
21 A. I told her that I had registered to vote ahead of
22 time before the election period.
23 Q. And then what was her response, "Go see this other
24 person"?
25 A. Basically -- you know, well, you're not
31
1 registered, so...
2 Q. Did anybody ask to see your voter registration
3 card?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. Did anybody ask to see your photo ID?
6 A. I want to say yes because I thought it was -- I
7 didn't remember doing that previously, but I -- I
8 don't want to give that a definite answer, but I
9 think that she did ask me for my ID and I thought
10 she was doing it to see how my name was spelled;
11 maybe that's why she couldn't find it.
12 Q. Okay. So then you went to the second -- was it
13 the poll manager or another poll worker?
14 A. I think it was just another poll worker.
15 Q. Okay. And then what did that person do?
16 A. She said she had to call to check to see what was
17 going on.
18 Q. Okay. And then what happened?
19 A. And then she called, and I sat down at a table,
20 and she said, "Just fill this out." And it was a
21 piece of paper.
22 Q. And what was that piece of paper; do you recall?
23 A. I don't remember exactly what it was.
24 Q. Okay. And then did you cast a provisional ballot?
25 A. I don't remember if it was -- if the word
32
1 provisional was stated, but I was given a ballot,
2 which I submitted.
3 Q. Was it a paper ballot?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. The whole station was paper ballot.
7 Q. Okay. Do you know if it was a provisional ballot
8 or a regular ballot?
9 A. To my knowledge, it looked like a regular ballot.
10 It didn't -- to me it didn't look any different
11 than what I had seen before in paper ballots.
12 Q. Okay. Did anybody tell you it was a provisional
13 ballot or they just said, "Here, you can vote"?
14 A. I don't remember the word provisional.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. So I can't definitely answer that.
17 Q. Okay. And when you left the polling place, did
18 you feel like you had voted?
19 A. I did.
20 Q. Okay. And until March of 2015, so like for the
21 last -- pardon my math -- maybe six or seven
22 months you felt like you voted --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- correct?
25 Okay. And somebody from the Justice
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33
1 Department called you and said, "Hey, your vote
2 didn't count"?
3 A. Exact -- correct.
4 Q. Okay. Since you got that phone call, have you
5 independently verified that with the Board of
6 Elections?
7 A. Could you rephrase that?
8 Q. Sure. So the person who called you from the
9 Justice Department, they said, "Ms. Paylor, we've
10 verified your identity," I guess, and they said,
11 "Your vote in 2014 did not count"?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Did you independently verify that yourself
16 by contacting the Board of Elections and asking
17 them, "Hey, did my vote count?"
18 A. I did.
19 Q. You did?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. When did you do that?
22 A. Maybe two weeks ago. Because the office is
23 moving, so I had called a while ago, but they took
24 forever to get back to me.
25 Q. Which office is moving?
34
1 A. The Board of Elections.
2 Q. Okay. So do you know where the Board of Elections
3 office is here in Buncombe County?
4 A. I do currently, but I don't know where they're
5 moving to.
6 Q. You know where it is currently though?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How far is that from your residence, if you know?
9 A. Maybe 10 to 15 minutes.
10 Q. On foot or in a car?
11 A. In a car.
12 Q. Okay. Do you own a car?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. Okay. And I assume you have a driver's license?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. So maybe 10 to 15 minutes by car to the
17 Board of Elections --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- in Buncombe County?
20 Okay. And you called about two weeks ago?
21 A. I called maybe about a month ago the first time.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. But it took a while to get back to me, and -- and
24 then when she called I was unavailable, called
25 back, and she took a while again to get back, and
35
1 so it was about two weeks ago maybe that we
2 actually had a conversation.
3 Q. And how did that conversation go?
4 A. I asked her about things being on file, if I had
5 anything on file, and she said, the only thing I
6 have was what I -- what was provided on Election
7 Day, whatever -- that paper that I filled out, but
8 I hadn't had anything prior to that.
9 Q. Did you ask her if Mr. Roach had turned in your --
10 your application?
11 A. I do believe I did, and she said this is
12 something -- because she had so many documents
13 that's not something she could remember, like him
14 actually turning it in, one person turning it in.
15 Q. Did she happen to know who Mr. Roach was
16 personally?
17 A. I didn't ask that.
18 Q. Okay. And she told you your vote didn't count?
19 A. Yes, but she said I would -- she said my vote
20 didn't count, correct.
21 Q. Okay. Did you fill out paperwork at the polling
22 place to register to vote on that -- on that day?
23 A. I believe that's what I was doing. In my mind
24 that's what I thought I was doing.
25 Q. Okay. And then when you talked to the lady on the
36
1 phone here a couple weeks ago -- was it a lady? I
2 think --
3 A. It was.
4 Q. Okay. When you talked to the lady a couple weeks
5 ago on the phone, did she tell you that "Your vote
6 didn't count in 2014 but you are now currently
7 registered to vote"? Did she tell you that?
8 A. Yes, and that I would be able to vote in the
9 next -- next election, but that the previous one
10 did not count.
11 Q. Okay. So as we sit here today, you are currently
12 registered to vote?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In Buncombe County?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you have a voter registration card?
17 A. No.
18 Q. So how --
19 A. This is -- I only know what the lady at the Board
20 of Elections said. That's what she told me, that
21 I was registered even though I -- no, I have not
22 received a voter registration card yet.
23 Q. Okay. Are you going to try to get one before
24 November?
25 A. That would be nice.
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37
1 Q. Is that a yes?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So after this phone call with the Board of
4 Elections lady, since that time have you contacted
5 or spoken with Mr. Roach?
6 A. I have not.
7 Q. Okay. Okay. I think I asked you this earlier,
8 but just to make sure I have it in the record, so
9 the law that's at issue in this lawsuit, you don't
10 know when it was passed, do you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. Tell me, please, what your understanding of
13 the changes are.
14 A. I understand now that you can't register and vote
15 in the same day and that a license is required.
16 That's the extent of my knowledge before all this,
17 you know, with the deposition and things like
18 that. The extent of my knowledge was something
19 about an ID, but then after this and talking with
20 the Board of Elections now I understand it's --
21 you need an ID and you can't register and vote in
22 the same day.
23 Q. Okay. And that's your understanding of the
24 changes?
25 A. Yes.
38
1 Q. Okay. And when you say ID, do you mean a photo
2 ID?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Have you ever worked as a -- have you ever
5 worked for any County Board of Elections?
6 A. No. Yes, the answer is no. I was just making
7 sure. No, I have not.
8 Q. Have you ever done any work regarding elections,
9 whether for the Board of Elections or otherwise?
10 A. I did some door knocking to get people out to the
11 polls.
12 Q. When did you do that?
13 A. This last year.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. In this -- before this last local election.
16 Q. Who did you do that for?
17 A. It was for Planned Parenthood.
18 Q. Was there an issue on the ballot or was it a
19 candidate that Planned Parenthood was supporting
20 or opposing, or do you recall?
21 A. I believe -- there was a candidate that they were
22 supporting, but in our speeches we -- we
23 weren't -- we weren't allowed to say parties or
24 particular candidates. We were just supposed to
25 get people out to vote.
39
1 Q. Were you also registering people if they weren't
2 registered to vote?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. We were just getting them out to vote.
6 Q. Was it on Election Day?
7 A. No, it was before Election Day.
8 Q. Was it during the early voting period or was it
9 before that even?
10 A. It started before that, but it extended into some
11 of the early voting period or -- the early voting
12 period.
13 Q. Did you get paid for that work or was it
14 volunteer?
15 A. It was pay -- paid.
16 Q. Okay. And you were paid by Planned Parenthood you
17 think?
18 A. On the W-2 it says Community Outreach.
19 Q. Okay. What is Community Outreach; do you know?
20 A. I'm not sure.
21 Q. Okay. Have you ever worked as a -- as a poll
22 worker in a polling place?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Have you ever worked as a poll manager?
25 A. No.
40
1 Q. Have you ever -- ever -- strike that.
2 Have you ever served as a poll watcher?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. Have you ever worked for a candidate or a
5 political party as a -- as an observer in a
6 polling place?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Have you -- when you were in college did you ever
9 work for any campaigns or candidates or political
10 parties?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay.
13 MR. BOWERS: Can we take a break?
14 * * *
15 (Whereupon, there was a recess in the
16 proceedings from 11:06 a.m. to 11:10 a.m.)
17 * * *
18 BY MR. BOWERS:
19 Q. Okay. Ms. Paylor, we're back on the record.
20 Have you ever registered to vote in person
21 at a Board of Elections office?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. Are you aware that you can do that?
24 A. I didn't have anything solidified, but using
25 common sense I guess I can say yes.
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41
1 Q. And on the -- on the day that you cast a ballot in
2 2014, when you left the polling place, did you
3 think you had cast a ballot when you were finished
4 voting?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. So there was no reason for you to go to the
7 Board of Elections on Monday and say, "Hey, I need
8 to make sure my voter -- I'm registered to vote"?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. Because in your mind you believed that you
11 were registered to vote?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. But after you gave your application to
14 Mr. Roach, you never did anything to independently
15 verify that you were registered to vote, correct?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. Can I just --
19 Q. Sure.
20 A. The extent of what I did was asked him if he
21 submitted it. That was the extent.
22 Q. You asked Mr. Roach?
23 A. (Nods head.)
24 Q. Okay. And he said?
25 A. Yes.
42
1 Q. Okay. But he doesn't work for the Board of
2 Elections, does it?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. Do you know if he collected any other
5 applications at the same time he collected yours?
6 A. I'm not 100 percent, but he was collecting some of
7 the new -- newly turned 18-year-olds.
8 Q. So it's probably likely?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Have you asked -- do you know any of those
11 newly 18 -- newly turned 18-year-old people?
12 A. I do not.
13 Q. Okay. So I think it's safe to assume -- did you
14 ask any of them -- have you asked any of them,
15 "Hey, did you get registered to vote?"
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. So you don't know one way or the other?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. Do you think you were harmed by the law?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How?
22 A. Because until recently I had no issue changing
23 registration and registering to vote in a new
24 county and voting the same day, and so I think
25 it's definitely emotional toll because of just
43
1 history in general with African Americans and
2 voting, and to exercise my right and then for it
3 not to be counted, I just -- that was -- that
4 definitely had an effect on me, you know, and to
5 get out to vote sometimes it can be -- sometimes
6 you have to squeeze it in, and then you make it
7 work, and then it's for nothing. You know, it's
8 almost like my voice was taken from me, and that
9 definitely isn't -- that isn't a good feeling.
10 Q. Okay. I think you just testified that previously
11 you had experience changing your county of
12 residence on the same day as you cast a ballot?
13 A. Or registering to vote, yes.
14 Q. Okay. But previously you testified -- correct me
15 if I'm wrong, but I think you testified that when
16 you initially registered to vote at age 18 you
17 voted on the same day, but when you changed county
18 of residence, you did that with a door-to-door
19 volunteer, correct?
20 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection.
21 THE WITNESS: That was --
22 MR. SHAPIRO: Mischaracterizes previous
23 testimony.
24 BY MR. BOWERS:
25 Q. You can answer.
44
1 A. That was only one time that someone came to my
2 door. I had changed my residence more than that.
3 Q. All right. But you changed your -- let's see.
4 Let me go back and make sure I got it correct. So
5 you registered to vote in Orange County the first
6 time at age 18?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did you do that at the polling place?
9 A. I believe I did.
10 Q. And voted the same day?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Then when you went to Winston-Salem --
13 Winston-Salem State, you changed your voter
14 registration again?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How did you do that?
17 A. I don't remember exactly, but I don't remember it
18 being two different events. I -- I don't know for
19 certain though.
20 Q. Okay. And then when you moved back to Orange
21 County --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- that's when the person came to your door and
24 you gave them a form --
25 A. Yes.
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45
1 Q. -- correct?
2 And then when you moved to Buncombe County,
3 you gave your form to Mr. Roach?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. So the -- is it fair to say that the only
6 time that you're certain that you registered and
7 voted on the same day was when you were 18?
8 A. I believe so, yes.
9 Q. Okay. So, in fact, it's possible that you had
10 never changed your voter registration and voted on
11 the same day, correct?
12 A. I can't say if that's true because I don't recall
13 if I did it in Winston-Salem or not.
14 Q. But it's possible?
15 A. It's possible.
16 Q. Okay. Is there any other way you think you were
17 harmed by the law?
18 A. No, but I don't know all that is encompassed by
19 this law, so I don't know what future
20 repercussions might be in store because of this
21 law.
22 Q. But you do have a photo ID, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And to your knowledge, you're currently registered
25 to vote in Buncombe County?
46
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And at some point between now and November you're
3 going to check to see if you have a voter
4 registration card, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. But you don't currently have one?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And you didn't have one when you tried to vote in
9 2014 either, did you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay.
12 MR. BOWERS: I don't have any further
13 questions.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
15 MR. SHAPIRO: I think there was something
16 came up that may require clarification. I'm not
17 sure if it does. Let me just check that out.
18 Can we go off the record for a moment?
19 * * *
20 (Whereupon, there was a recess in the
21 proceedings from 11:18 a.m. to 11:21 a.m.)
22 * * *
23 MR. SHAPIRO: I have no further questions.
24 BY MR. BOWERS:
25 Q. So the time that Mr. Shapiro took to look over his
47
1 notes I came up with another question. I warned
2 you. This is the way lawyers are.
3 Do you plan on appearing as a witness in
4 this trial?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Do you know when the trial is tentatively
7 scheduled for?
8 A. In July.
9 Q. Do you know where it's going to be held?
10 A. Winston-Salem.
11 Q. Okay. And you plan on attending and appearing as
12 a witness?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Has the Justice Department or anybody else
15 told you that they would pay for your travel?
16 A. No. I don't remember. I don't think so.
17 Q. Okay. Are you planning on paying for your own way
18 to go to Winston-Salem and appear --
19 A. I believe that I would be -- have a night that
20 they would help with paying for a night stay. The
21 travel I'm not certain of, but I don't mind
22 driving it on my own anyway.
23 Q. Okay. But the lodging and maybe a meal or two
24 might be provided by somebody else?
25 A. They didn't say anything about a meal.
48
1 Q. But they did say lodging?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. Yes?
4 A. Yes. Sorry.
5 Q. That's okay. Who -- who said that to you?
6 A. Mr. Shapiro.
7 Q. Okay.
8 MR. BOWERS: No further questions.
9 MR. SHAPIRO: No further questions.
10 [SIGNATURE RESERVED.]
11 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 11:23 A.M.]
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
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25
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YOLANDA M. PAYLOR April 30, 2015
DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS www.discoverydepo.com 1-919-424-8242
13 (Pages 49 to 51)
49
1 A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T OF D E P O N E N T
2
3 I, YOLANDA M. PAYLOR, declare under the penalties
4 of perjury under the State of North Carolina that I have
5 read the foregoing 48 pages, which contain a correct
6 transcription of answers made by me to the question
7 therein recorded, with the exception(s) and/or
8 addition(s) reflected on the correction sheet attached
9 hereto, if any.
10 Signed this, the _____ day of _________,
11 2015.
12
13
14 __________________________
15 YOLANDA M. PAYLOR
16
17 State of:______________
18 County of:_____________
19 Subscribed and sworn to before me this ______ day
20 of _____________, 2015.
21
22 __________________________
23 Notary Public
24 My commission expires:____________________
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50
1 E R R A T A S H E E T
2 Case Name: NAACP vs. McCrory and Related Cases
3 Witness Name: YOLANDA M. PAYLOR
4 Deposition Date: Thursday, April 30, 2015
5 Page/Line Reads Should Read
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24 _______________________ _________________
25 Signature Date
51
1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA )
) C E R T I F I C A T E
2 COUNTY OF CABARRUS )
3
4 I, CINDY A. HAYDEN, RMR, CRR, Court
5 Reporter and Notary Public, the officer before whom the
6 foregoing proceeding was conducted, do hereby certify
7 that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing
8 proceeding was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of
9 said witness was taken by me to the best of my ability
10 and thereafter transcribed by me; and that the foregoing
11 pages, inclusive, constitute a true and accurate
12 transcription of the testimony of the witness.
13 I do further certify that I am neither
14 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the
15 parties to this action and, further, that I am not a
16 relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed
17 by the parties thereof, nor financially or otherwise
18 interested in the outcome of said action.
19 This the 6th day of May, 2015.
20
21 ____________________________
22 CINDY A. HAYDEN, RMR, CRR
23 Notary Public No. 20020910053
24
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Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-47 Filed 07/08/15 Page 13 of 13
·1· · · · · ·IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT· · · · · FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA·2
·3· ·NORTH CAROLINA STATE CONFERENCE· · ·)· · ·OF THE NAACP, et al,· · · · · · · · )·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · Plaintiffs,· · · · · · · )·5· · · ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· ·1:13CV658· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)·6· ·PATRICK LLOYD McCRORY, in his· · · ·)· · ·official capacity as Governor of· · )·7· ·North Carolina, et al.,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)·8· · · · · · · Defendants.· · · · · · · )· · ·____________________________________)·9· · ·LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF· · · · · ·)10· ·NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)11· · · · · · · ·Plaintiffs,· · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)12· · ·and· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)13· ·LOUIS M. DUKE, et al.,· · · · · · · )· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)14· · · · · · ·Plaintiffs-Intervenors,· ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)15· · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· ·1:13CV660· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)16· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · ·THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al. )17· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· · · · · · · ·Defendants.· · · · · · · ·)18· ·____________________________________)
19· ·UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,· · · · · ·)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)20· · · · · · ·Plaintiff,· · · · · · · · )· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)21· · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· ·1:13CV861· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)22· ·THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)23· · · · · · ·Defendants.· · · · · · · ·)· · ·____________________________________)24
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Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 1 of 15
Page 2·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·VOLUME 1
·2· · ·VIDEOTAPED TELEPHONIC DEPOSITION OF MARY PERRY
·3· · · · · · · · · ·(Taken by Defendants)
·4· · · · · · · · ·Raleigh, North Carolina
·5· · · · · · · · · · · March 12, 2015
·6
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10· ·Reported by:· Lynn A. Ruggiro,
· · · · · · · · · ·Court Reporter
11· · · · · · · · ·Notary Public
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Page 3·1· · · · · · · · · APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL:·2· ·Counsel for NAACP Plaintiffs:·3· · · · · ·Michael Glick, EsWquire· · · · · · ·KIRKLAND & ELLIS, LLP·4· · · · · ·655 Fifteenth Street, N.W.· · · · · · ·Washington, D.C. 20005·5· · · · · ·(202) 879-5218· · · · · · ·[email protected]·6·7· · · · · ·Donita Judge, Esquire· · · · · · ·Project Director·8· · · · · ·1220 L Street, N.W., Suite 850· · · · · · ·Washington, d.c. 20005·9· · · · · ·(202) 728-9557· · · · · · ·[email protected]· · · · · · ·Penda D. Hair, Esquire11· · · · · ·ADVANCEMENT PROJECT· · · · · · ·Suite 85012· · · · · ·1220 L Street N.W.· · · · · · ·Washington D.C.· 2000513· · · · · ·[email protected]· ·Counsel for United States of America:15· · · · · ·Judybeth Greene, Esquire· · · · · · ·U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE16· · · · · ·Civil Rights Division· · · · · · ·950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW17· · · · · ·Washington DC· 205430· · · · · · ·(202) 616-235018· · · · · · [email protected]· ·Counsel for the Defendants State Board of Elections:20· · · · · ·Michael D. McKnight, Esquire· · · · · · ·OGLETREE, DEAKINS, NASH, SMOAK & STEWART, P.C.21· · · · · ·4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 1100· · · · · · ·Raleigh, North Carolina· 2760922· · · · · ·(919) 787-9700· · · · · · ·[email protected]
Page 4·1· ·Also Present:
·2· · · · · ·Carl Rehl, Videographer
·3· · · · · ·Irving Joyner, Professor of Law
· · · · · · ·NCCU School of LAW
·4· · · · · ·1512 S. Alston Avenue
· · · · · · ·Durham, North Carolina· 27707
·5· · · · · ·(919) 530-6293
· · · · · · ·[email protected]
·6
·7· · · · · ·VIDEOTAPED TELEPHONIC DEPOSITION OF MARY PERRY,
·8· ·taken by the Defendants, at the Law Offices of N.C advocates
·9· ·for Justice, 1312 Annapolis Drive, Raleigh, North Carolina,
10· ·on the 12th day of March, 2015 at 1:04 p.m. before Lynn A.
11· ·Ruggiro, Notary Public and Shorthand Reporter.
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Page 5·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·CONTENTS
·2· ·THE WITNESS: Mary Perry· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
·3· · · ·BY:· Mr. McKnight· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·7, 48
·4· · · ·BY:· Mr. Glick· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·35
·5
·6· · · · · · · · · · INDEX OF EXHIBITS
·7· ·EXHIBIT· · · · · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · PAGE
·8· ·Exhibit 7· · Plaintiff's Responses & Objections
·9· · · · · · · · to Defendant's First Set of
10· · · · · · · · Interrogatories· · · · · · · · · · · · ·16
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Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 2 of 15
Page 6·1· · · · · · · · · PROCEEDINGS
·2· · · · MR. REHL:· We are now on the record, the
·3· ·time is 1:03.
·4· · · · MR. GLICK:· This is Michael Glick at
·5· ·Kirkland and Ellis.· Earlier this morning we
·6· ·had a deposition of Rosanell Eaton and for the
·7· ·sake of the record, just wanted to clarify who
·8· ·was listening on the phone call during that
·9· ·deposition.
10· · · · So Ms. Hair, would you like to make an
11· ·appearance?
12· · · · MS. HAIR:· Yes, I would.
13· · · · MR. GLICK:· Just state --
14· · · · MS. HAIR: Penda D. Hair, Penda D. Hair
15· ·with Advancement Project, representing the
16· ·North Carolina NAACP and the other group of
17· ·plaintiffs associated with them.
18· · · · MR. GLICK:· Okay.· We are -- Plaintiffs
19· ·are fine to close the deposition of Ms. Eaton
20· ·after that appearance and we can start Ms.
21· ·Perry's deposition now if that's all right with
22· ·you.
23· · · · MR. McKNIGHT:· That's fine with me.
24· · · · MR. REHL:· Would the court reporter please
25· ·swear in the witness?
Page 7·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·MARY PERRY
·2· · ·having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
·3· · · ·EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANTS
·4· · · · · ·BY MR. McKNIGHT:
·5· · · · Q.· ·Good afternoon, Ms. Perry.
·6· · · · A.· ·Good afternoon.
·7· · · · Q.· ·My name is Michael McKnight and I'm an
·8· ·attorney with the Ogletree Deakins law firm and
·9· ·we're here today to take your deposition in a
10· ·lawsuit known as North Carolina State Conference of
11· ·the NAACP versus McCrory.· That lawsuit is pending
12· ·in Federal Court in the Middle Distinct of North
13· ·Carolina.
14· · · · · · ·I am one of the attorneys serving as
15· ·co-counsel for the State Board of Elections,
16· ·Defendants in this matter along with the North
17· ·Carolina Attorney General's Office.· Rich Bowers and
18· ·Bob Stephens represent Governor Pat McCrory, the
19· ·other defendant named in this lawsuit.
20· · · · · · ·At this time, I will allow plaintiff's
21· ·counsel to introduce themselves for the record.
22· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· Michael Glick, Kirkland and
23· · · · Ellis on behalf of the North Carolina Chapter
24· · · · of the NAACP as well as Ms. Perry.
25· · · · · · ·MS. JUDGE: Donita Judge, Advancement
Page 8·1· · · · Project representing the North Carolina NAACP
·2· · · · and Mrs. Perry.
·3· · · · · · ·MR. JOYNER:· Irv Joyner, North Carolina
·4· · · · NAACP and Mrs. Perry.
·5· · · · · · ·MS. GREENE:· Judybeth Greene representing
·6· · · · the United States of America.
·7· ·By MR. McKNIGHT:
·8· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, we're here taking your
·9· ·deposition because you were named as a plaintiff in
10· ·this lawsuit that challenges a law that was passed
11· ·in 2013 that is referred to in the lawsuit as House
12· ·Bill 589.· Are you familiar with that law?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
14· · · · Q.· ·And so if I mention House Bill 589 during
15· ·the course of our conversation today, will you know
16· ·what I'm referring to?
17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And have you ever had your deposition
19· ·taken before?
20· · · · A.· ·No.
21· · · · Q.· ·And have you ever testified in court
22· ·before?
23· · · · A.· ·No.
24· · · · Q.· ·And if you will please, Ms. Perry, it may
25· ·help you if you speak up so that I can be sure to
Page 9·1· ·hear your answers --
·2· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.
·3· · · · Q.· ·-- and the court reporter.
·4· · · · A.· ·No.
·5· · · · Q.· ·If you don't understand or hear my
·6· ·questions today, will you please let me know?
·7· · · · A.· ·I will.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And we can certainly take a break at any
·9· ·time that you need to but I would ask that you
10· ·answer any question I have pending before we take a
11· ·break.· Is that fair?
12· · · · A.· ·Fair.
13· · · · Q.· ·And do you understand that you have an
14· ·obligation to respond truthfully to any questions
15· ·that are asked today?
16· · · · A.· ·I do.
17· · · · Q.· ·And is there any reason why you could not
18· ·testify truthfully today?
19· · · · A.· ·No.
20· · · · Q.· ·Did you do anything to prepare for today's
21· ·deposition?
22· · · · A.· ·Not really.
23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Other than your attorney, did you
24· ·speak with anyone about the deposition today?
25· · · · A.· ·No.
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 3 of 15
Page 10·1· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever been a party in any lawsuit
·2· ·other than this lawsuit?
·3· · · · A.· ·No.
·4· · · · Q.· ·I know from different things that I've
·5· ·read about you that you've been involved with voter
·6· ·registration, voter education, various political
·7· ·efforts for at least 40 years, maybe even longer
·8· ·than that; is that right?
·9· · · · A.· ·That's true.
10· · · · Q.· ·And can you tell me how you got started
11· ·with your involvement in those things?
12· · · · A.· ·Well, I was a little girl, I had a mentor
13· ·that was involved and I became involved because of
14· ·her and because of things that happened to me
15· ·personally and in the community.
16· · · · Q.· ·And what sorts of things specifically are
17· ·you talking about?
18· · · · A.· ·And even -- even not only as a little girl
19· ·but as I got older as a grown person.· One of the
20· ·things that happened was I was at a movie with my
21· ·cousin and my cousin -- someone stepped on her toe
22· ·standing in line waiting to go into the movie, and I
23· ·asked the girl whether she was going to say --
24· ·apologize and from that, the law was called and I
25· ·was taken down to the police station.· Nobody said
Page 11·1· ·anything to her.
·2· · · · Q.· ·I understand.· Any other incidents that
·3· ·led to your involvement in voter registration, voter
·4· ·education and similar efforts?
·5· · · · A.· ·I had a cross burn in my yard during the
·6· ·school in the seventies.
·7· · · · Q.· ·You said that was in the 1970s?
·8· · · · A.· ·In 1970.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Anything else?
10· · · · A.· ·Well, I saw the need because other people,
11· ·as I stated, that my mentor was very involved and so
12· ·she got me -- I became involved.
13· · · · Q.· ·I understand.· Well, the lawsuit here that
14· ·we're here to talk about today makes several
15· ·allegations about the effect that House Bill 589
16· ·will have on North Carolina voters.· Do you think
17· ·the changes to the law made by House Bill 589 has
18· ·affected your ability to vote in any way?
19· · · · A.· ·Well, personally, it has not affected me
20· ·personally but other people it has, some people I
21· ·know.
22· · · · Q.· ·And who do you know -- go ahead.
23· · · · A.· ·One of the things is that, it maybe has
24· ·affected me personally because -- because of when I
25· ·went to vote, the long line.
Page 12·1· · · · Q.· ·And which time that you went to vote are
·2· ·you speaking of specifically?
·3· · · · A.· ·When I went to early voting.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And was that in 2014?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And where did you go to vote in 2014?
·7· · · · A.· ·Knightdale fire -- Knightdale precinct.
·8· · · · Q.· ·And are you speaking of the primary
·9· ·election in 2014 or the general election?
10· · · · A.· ·The general election.
11· · · · Q.· ·And I believe you said you voted at the
12· ·Knightdale Fire Station?
13· · · · A.· ·Yes, because I did early voting.
14· · · · Q.· ·And you said the line was long there?
15· · · · A.· ·The line was long, that Saturday was extra
16· ·long.
17· · · · Q.· ·And how long was the line?
18· · · · A.· ·Not only was the line long, the parking,
19· ·we had to drive around twice to find a parking place
20· ·and the line was all the way out down -- down the
21· ·road down.
22· · · · Q.· ·How long did you wait to vote that day?
23· · · · A.· ·I didn't vote that day, I voted early. I
24· ·carried someone to vote that day.· I voted during
25· ·the week.
Page 13·1· · · · Q.· ·So the day you saw the line long was a
·2· ·Saturday?
·3· · · · A.· ·It was on Saturday, yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And you said that you voted early --
·5· ·earlier in the week before that?
·6· · · · A.· ·In the week, I voted early in that same
·7· ·week.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Was that before or after you took that
·9· ·person to the poles?
10· · · · A.· ·I voted before I carried the person to the
11· ·poles.
12· · · · Q.· ·And did you have to wait to vote?
13· · · · A.· ·I had to wait a little while but not as
14· ·long as I did that Saturday.
15· · · · Q.· ·Now, the person you took to vote, how long
16· ·did they have to wait?
17· · · · A.· ·About 25 minutes.
18· · · · Q.· ·And were they ultimately able to vote that
19· ·day?
20· · · · A.· ·Yes, they voted.
21· · · · Q.· ·And how long would you say that you had to
22· ·wait to vote when you voted?
23· · · · A.· ·About ten minutes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And you were able to vote that day?
25· · · · A.· ·The day that I voted, I didn't vote the
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 4 of 15
Page 14·1· ·same day they voted.
·2· · · · Q.· ·Sure.· I understand.
·3· · · · · · ·Did you have any other problems voting
·4· ·during the November 2014 general election?
·5· · · · A.· ·No, I did not.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And did you vote in the primary election
·7· ·in May of 2014?
·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And what method of voting did you use in
10· ·that election?
11· · · · A.· ·You know, I don't remember.· I know I
12· ·voted.
13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you remember having any
14· ·problems voting in the May 2014 primary?
15· · · · A.· ·No.
16· · · · Q.· ·And other than the lady who you said you
17· ·took to vote that Saturday during early voting who
18· ·had to wait for 25 minutes, are there any other
19· ·individuals who you are aware of who had problems --
20· · · · A.· ·I had people tell me that they were not
21· ·able to vote.
22· · · · Q.· ·And how many people told you they were not
23· ·able to vote?
24· · · · A.· ·I can't give you the specific number but
25· ·I'd say around five or six.
Page 15·1· · · · Q.· ·And did they tell you they were not able
·2· ·to vote at all or that they had to come back and
·3· ·vote later, what were the circumstances?
·4· · · · A.· ·Those the ones told me they were not able
·5· ·to vote at all.
·6· · · · Q.· ·And you remember any names of the people
·7· ·who told you they were not able to vote at all?
·8· · · · A.· ·No.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And where did they tell you they were not
10· ·able to vote?· Do you know the locations they tried
11· ·to vote?
12· · · · A.· ·I -- I don't know if it was at Carboro
13· ·Schools and the one of the precincts on Poole,
14· ·Central Baptist Church.
15· · · · Q.· ·But you didn't accompany -- I'm sorry, you
16· ·didn't accompany any of those folks --
17· · · · A.· ·No, I didn't.
18· · · · Q.· ·-- to the poles, did you?
19· · · · A.· ·No, I didn't.
20· · · · Q.· ·And for the sake of clarity of the record,
21· ·if you'll wait for me to finish my question before
22· ·you answer, I know that we're on the same page and
23· ·you know where I'm going, which is terrific, but
24· ·that will help the court reporter out.
25· · · · A.· ·(Witness nods head.)
Page 16·1· · · · Q.· ·So you didn't accompany any of those
·2· ·people to the poles; is that right?
·3· · · · A.· ·No.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And do you know any specific reasons why
·5· ·any of those people said that they were not able to
·6· ·vote at all?
·7· · · · A.· ·They might have told me but I forgot.
·8· · · · Q.· ·I hand you a document now that we're going
·9· ·to mark as NAACP Exhibit 7.
10· · · · · · ·(EXHIBIT NUMBER NAACP EXHIBIT 7 WAS MARKED
11· ·FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
12· · · · Q.· ·And the reason why it's Exhibit 7, just
13· ·for your knowledge, is that we had six in Ms.
14· ·Eaton's deposition this morning, we're just
15· ·continuing those numbers.· So I'm going to hand
16· ·these to counsel.· And I'll give you a moment to
17· ·look at that document, then I'm going to ask you
18· ·some specific questions about some of these
19· ·responses here.· And what I'll represent to you is
20· ·that this document is a copy of responses and
21· ·objections to Interrogatories that the defendants in
22· ·this case served on your attorneys and asked that
23· ·you answer.· And so I guess my first question is, is
24· ·this a document that you've seen before or do you
25· ·know?
Page 17·1· · · · A.· ·I haven't seen this before.
·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Well, we'll go over some of the
·3· ·specific answers and if you see an answer here to
·4· ·one of these Interrogatories that we discussed and
·5· ·something's not correct, will you let me know?· And
·6· ·Ms. Eaton, you're welcome to take as much time as
·7· ·you need to look at this document and just let me
·8· ·know when you're ready for some questions.
·9· · · · A.· ·You mean Ms. Perry.
10· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry, Ms. Perry, I apologize.
11· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· Michael, it may be easier if
12· · · · there are Interrogatories that you have
13· · · · particular questions about, if you can just say
14· · · · what one it is and then she can read that one
15· · · · and then if you want to move onto another one,
16· · · · we'll do that, is that okay?
17· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· I'm fine doing it either
18· · · · way.· I wanted to give her as much time as she
19· · · · needed to look at these though before I ask any
20· · · · questions.
21· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· Okay.
22· · · · Q.· ·So Ms. Eaton, I'm sorry, Ms. Perry, I'm
23· ·programmed from this morning.
24· · · · A.· ·It's okay.
25· · · · Q.· ·I apologize.· You'll have to wrap me over
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 5 of 15
Page 18·1· ·the head if I do it again.
·2· · · · · · · Ms. Perry, I want to look at
·3· ·Interrogatory Number 2, and that would be about
·4· ·three pages in or so.· I don't think the pages are
·5· ·numbered at the bottom.· And this Interrogatory is
·6· ·just asking your name and address.· And is this your
·7· ·correct name that's listed here, Mary Ethel Perry?
·8· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
·9· · · · Q.· ·And your address is listed as 3109 Lizard
10· ·Lick Road in Wendell; is that correct?
11· · · · A.· ·That is correct.
12· · · · Q.· ·And how long have you lived at that
13· ·address?
14· · · · A.· ·Since -- well, since I've lived there,
15· ·when I first moved there, the address was different
16· ·but I lived at the same place, but it used to be
17· ·Marshman Road, they changed it to Lizard Lick Road.
18· ·I've been there since 1948.
19· · · · Q.· ·1948; is that right?
20· · · · A.· ·Uh-huh.
21· · · · Q.· ·And have you always been registered to
22· ·vote at that address?
23· · · · A.· ·Since the time I was voted, yes.
24· · · · Q.· ·And what poling place do you go to vote at
25· ·if you go on election day?
Page 19·1· · · · A.· ·510 Fire Station.
·2· · · · Q.· ·And I see that your date of birth is
·3· · , 1929; is that correct?
·4· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
·5· · · · Q.· ·That would make you about 85 years old,
·6· ·right?
·7· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
·8· · · · Q.· ·I'm going to ask you some questions about
·9· ·Interrogatory Number 2.· Interrogatory Number 2 asks
10· ·about organizations in which you have been a member
11· ·or otherwise involved in the last ten years that
12· ·conducted Get Out the Vote, voter registration and
13· ·voter engagement activities.· And one of the
14· ·organizations you've listed there is Item 4, which
15· ·is the North Carolina State Conference of the NAACP.
16· ·And I see that you're a member of the North Carolina
17· ·State Conference of the NAACP; is that correct?
18· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
19· · · · Q.· ·And you currently hold a position with
20· ·them?
21· · · · A.· ·I do.
22· · · · Q.· ·And what is that?
23· · · · A.· ·District Director, District 10.
24· · · · Q.· ·And how long have you held that position?
25· · · · A.· ·About six or seven years.
Page 20·1· · · · Q.· ·And have you ever been president of a
·2· ·branch of the NAACP?
·3· · · · A.· ·I have.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And I understand you hold a record for
·5· ·being the longest branch president as in the history
·6· ·of the North Carolina NAACP or the nation?
·7· · · · A.· ·The nation.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Which branch were you president?
·9· · · · A.· ·Wendell Wake.
10· · · · Q.· ·And what years were you president of that
11· ·branch?
12· · · · A.· ·I was president for 41 years.· I don't
13· ·know, I didn't write the number.
14· · · · Q.· ·Fair enough.· And as District Director for
15· ·the organization for District 10, what are you
16· ·responsible for?
17· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· I'm going to object.· The
18· · · · question goes to the internal organization --
19· · · · internal operations of the organization and
20· · · · instruct the witness not to answer on First
21· · · · Amendment grounds, so...
22· · · · Q.· ·Well, are you responsible for voter
23· ·registration and voter engagement activities in that
24· ·position?
25· · · · A.· ·Yes.
Page 21·1· · · · Q.· ·And what sorts of voter registration and
·2· ·voter education activities do you engage in in that
·3· ·position?
·4· · · · A.· ·I didn't understand you.
·5· · · · Q.· ·She asked me to repeat my question.
·6· · · · · · ·What sorts of voter registration and voter
·7· ·education activities do you do with the North
·8· ·Carolina NAACP?
·9· · · · A.· ·We have voter registration drives where we
10· ·get people to go out in the various sites and
11· ·register people to vote.
12· · · · Q.· ·And I see that you are also involved with
13· ·an organization called Project Vote; is that right?
14· · · · A.· ·I was, I was -- I was a State Director for
15· ·the Project Vote.
16· · · · Q.· ·And do you roughly remember when that was
17· ·that you were State Director?
18· · · · A.· ·I don't remember, it's been a long time.
19· · · · Q.· ·But you think in the last ten years?
20· · · · A.· ·No, it's been longer than that.
21· · · · Q.· ·And you're also a member of the North
22· ·Carolina State Executive Committee of the Democratic
23· ·Party; is that right?
24· · · · A.· ·I was, I'm not no longer a member.
25· · · · Q.· ·And do you hold any position with the
REDACTED
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 6 of 15
Page 22·1· ·Democratic Party currently?
·2· · · · A.· ·I'm Precinct Chair 0901.
·3· · · · Q.· ·I want to look at the response to
·4· ·Interrogatory Number 4.· It starts at the bottom of
·5· ·one page and it goes onto another, and basically
·6· ·Interrogatory Number 4 ask that you detail the
·7· ·activities that you engaged in in the organizations
·8· ·that were listed in Interrogatory Number 2, some of
·9· ·which we just talked about.· I'm looking at Item 7
10· ·under the response to Interrogatory Number 4.· And
11· ·this talks about your activities with the Democratic
12· ·Women of Wake County.· And it says, "Ms. Perry,
13· ·along with the organization partnered with community
14· ·groups to conduct GOTV, which is Get Out to Vote,
15· ·and voter registration drives."· And it says that
16· ·you also encouraged voters to vote in their
17· ·precincts.· Is that true?
18· · · · A.· ·With the Democratic women, I'm just a
19· ·member, a paying member.· I don't do anything.
20· · · · Q.· ·In the past, have you engaged in Get Out
21· ·To Vote and voter registration drives with
22· ·Democratic women?
23· · · · A.· ·Yes, I have.
24· · · · Q.· ·And have you encouraged voters to vote in
25· ·their precincts as a part of those Get Out To Votes
Page 23·1· ·efforts?
·2· · · · A.· ·Yes, to tell them where they're supposed
·3· ·to go to vote.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And why is it important for people to vote
·5· ·in the correct precinct?
·6· · · · A.· ·Well, if only election day, you have to
·7· ·vote in your precincts.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what's the consequence if you
·9· ·don't?
10· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· Objection, calls for a legal
11· · · · conclusion.
12· · · · · · ·You can answer, Ms. Perry.
13· · · · Q.· ·If you know.
14· · · · A.· ·Why is it important to vote in precinct?
15· ·But if they don't know where their precinct is, then
16· ·we won't be allowed to vote period.· They used to
17· ·give you provisional ballots but no.
18· · · · Q.· ·Are you saying that they won't give a
19· ·provisional ballot now?
20· · · · A.· ·No.
21· · · · Q.· ·And --
22· · · · A.· ·Under this new law.
23· · · · Q.· ·And what's that based on, is that based
24· ·upon your understanding of the law or did somebody
25· ·tell you that?
Page 24·1· · · · A.· ·It's based on my understanding, that's
·2· ·what I understood.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And before House Bill 589 became
·4· ·law, do you know whether peoples' vote counted or
·5· ·not if they cast at the wrong precinct?
·6· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· Objection, calls for a legal
·7· · · · conclusion.
·8· · · · · · ·If you know the answer, Ms. Perry, you can
·9· · · · answer.
10· · · · A.· ·I don't know whether -- what happened to
11· ·it, because I'm not there.
12· · · · Q.· ·Do you think there was a change in the law
13· ·with respect to whether out of precinct votes
14· ·counted in House Bill 589 or do you know?
15· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· Objection, calls for a legal
16· · · · conclusion.
17· · · · A.· ·I don't know.
18· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· You can answer.
19· · · · A.· ·I don't know.
20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I want to look at the answer to
21· ·Interrogatory 5.· And in this Interrogatory, you
22· ·were asked to describe with specificity any problems
23· ·you have encountered while attempting to vote in any
24· ·North Carolina election.· And you described a
25· ·problem that you had during the 2012 presidential
Page 25·1· ·election there.
·2· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· I would note for the record
·3· · · · that the date of this document is February 18,
·4· · · · 2014, so it's prior to the 2014 election.
·5· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· And I'm going to ask about
·6· · · · that as well, so objection noted.
·7· · · · · · ·So Ms. Perry, tell me about the problem
·8· · · · you had voting during the 2012 presidential
·9· · · · election.
10· · · · A.· ·Well, I got stated that, you know, waiting
11· ·in the long lines.· Personally, myself, after a
12· ·problem I haven't had problems with voting except at
13· ·my age, I'm getting up in age, I can't stand in long
14· ·lines a long time.
15· · · · Q.· ·How did you vote in the 2012 presidential
16· ·election?
17· · · · A.· ·How did I vote?
18· · · · Q.· ·Well, not who did you vote for, that's a
19· ·bad question, I apologize.
20· · · · · · ·What method of voting did you use?· Did
21· ·you vote in early voting or did you vote on election
22· ·day or did you vote absentee?
23· · · · A.· ·I voted early.
24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And are you saying that you had to
25· ·wait in a long line during the 2012 election when
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 7 of 15
Page 26·1· ·you voted early?
·2· · · · A.· ·I waited for, because you know, that's the
·3· ·presidential election, it was a long line.· That was
·4· ·something different from ordinary elections.
·5· · · · Q.· ·And how long was the line in that
·6· ·election, if you remember?
·7· · · · A.· ·It wasn't as long as it was last year.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Do you remember how long you waited to
·9· ·vote in the 2012 presidential election?
10· · · · A.· ·Maybe about five or ten minutes.
11· · · · Q.· ·You said five or ten minutes?
12· · · · A.· ·About ten.
13· · · · Q.· ·Are you certain --
14· · · · A.· ·About ten.
15· · · · Q.· ·And before 2014, did you have any other
16· ·problems or issues when you voted in any election
17· ·that you can remember sitting here today?
18· · · · A.· ·No, I didn't have any problems
19· ·personally.
20· · · · Q.· ·And in this response to Interrogatory 5,
21· ·it states you have witnessed and assisted others who
22· ·have encountered problems while attempting to vote.
23· ·Can you give me any specific examples of problems
24· ·that you've witnessed and any assistance that you've
25· ·given?
Page 27·1· · · · A.· ·Well, I was at my precinct and it was
·2· ·close to closing time, getting close to 7:00 and one
·3· ·of the ladies from my church came up to vote and I
·4· ·said, "What you doing over here?· This is not your
·5· ·precinct."
·6· · · · · · ·And she said, "I've been to two places
·7· ·already.· This is my third place, and they have sent
·8· ·me here."
·9· · · · · · ·And I said, "What?"
10· · · · · · ·She said, "No, they said this is where I
11· ·come."
12· · · · · · ·I said, "When you get in there, you ask
13· ·for a provisional ballot."· I said, "Because, you
14· ·know, the pole's going to be closing in a little
15· ·while, you can't -- don't let them send you nowhere
16· ·else."
17· · · · Q.· ·And when did that incident occur?
18· · · · A.· ·That occurred, it wasn't this last
19· ·election, so to had to be prior to this last
20· ·election.
21· · · · Q.· ·So before 2014?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·And do you know if that lady was permitted
24· ·to vote with the provisional ballot?
25· · · · A.· ·She did vote, because I asked her when she
Page 28·1· ·came out and she said she was allowed to vote.
·2· · · · Q.· ·Can you think of any other people who
·3· ·you've assisted with voting problems in the time
·4· ·that you've been doing that?
·5· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I've had an incident in Wendell, at
·6· ·the Wendell precinct, that person came up, went in
·7· ·to vote and they said they wouldn't allow her to
·8· ·vote and I went with her inside.· She was allowed to
·9· ·vote.
10· · · · Q.· ·And when did that incident occur?
11· · · · A.· ·I don't remember.
12· · · · Q.· ·Do you think it was before 2014?
13· · · · A.· ·It was before 2014.
14· · · · Q.· ·Anybody else who you can recall assisting?
15· · · · A.· ·Well, there's been others, I can't recall.
16· · · · Q.· ·Sounds like you've helped a lot of people
17· ·over the years.
18· · · · A.· ·I think I have.· I like to think I've been
19· ·able to help.
20· · · · Q.· ·I want to look at the response to
21· ·Interrogatory Number 7.· In this Interrogatory, you
22· ·were asked whether you had ever served as a pole
23· ·observer on any election day or during early voting,
24· ·which is referred to as one stop absentee voting.
25· ·And you said that you have served as a pole observer
Page 29·1· ·in prior general elections and was assigned to
·2· ·precincts in Hopkins, North Carolina and Wendell,
·3· ·North Carolina, do you see that?
·4· · · · A.· ·(witness nods head.)
·5· · · · Q.· ·Is that an accurate statement?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And do you remember what elections that
·8· ·you served as a pole observer in?
·9· · · · A.· ·Uh-uh, no.
10· · · · Q.· ·Was it before 2014?
11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
12· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, I want to direct your attention
13· ·to Interrogatory Number 11.· And Interrogatory
14· ·Number 11 states that you have a North Carolina
15· ·driver's license.
16· · · · A.· ·I do.
17· · · · Q.· ·And is the name on your driver's license
18· ·correct?
19· · · · A.· ·My name on my driver's license it has Mary
20· ·W. Perry and I sign my name Mary E. Perry.
21· · · · Q.· ·And do you know why there is a difference
22· ·between the way your name is listed on your license
23· ·and the way you sign your name?
24· · · · A.· ·I don't know, I don't know if it's when I
25· ·went to register that I gave -- they asked me to
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 8 of 15
Page 30·1· ·give my maiden name.· That's what I assume it was
·2· ·because I've had it a long time.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And when did you first notice that issue
·4· ·with your name, the middle initial?
·5· · · · A.· ·When I went to register and they asked my
·6· ·name and I said Mary E. Perry and they couldn't find
·7· ·it.
·8· · · · Q.· ·You said when you went to register,
·9· ·register where?
10· · · · A.· ·Not register, I'm sorry, when I went to
11· ·vote.· When I went to vote, I don't know if that was
12· ·the first time I noticed it.· I'm sure I saw it when
13· ·I got my license.
14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· How long have you had that license?
15· · · · A.· ·Since I was 18.
16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And have you renewed it lately?
17· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I renewed it -- it expires in 19 --
18· ·I mean 2017, so that's how long I've had it.
19· · · · Q.· ·And you said this issue came to your
20· ·attention when you went to vote; is that right?
21· · · · A.· ·I -- I don't remember when it came up, you
22· ·know, I'm sure I saw it before then but I do
23· ·remember when I went to vote and they asked me my
24· ·name and I said Mary E. Perry and they said they
25· ·can't find it.· Then I said, "Oh, look for Mary W.
Page 31·1· ·Perry."
·2· · · · Q.· ·And they found your name?
·3· · · · A.· ·(Witness nods head.)
·4· · · · Q.· ·And what time was that that you went to
·5· ·vote that that came up?
·6· · · · A.· ·You know, I don't remember that.
·7· · · · Q.· ·I mean was it this past election --
·8· · · · A.· ·Oh, no.
·9· · · · Q.· ·-- in 2014?
10· · · · A.· ·No, no, no.
11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So sometime before 2014?
12· · · · A.· ·It's been quite a while ago.
13· · · · Q.· ·And have you had any trouble voting since
14· ·because of that issue?
15· · · · A.· ·No.
16· · · · Q.· ·And do you have any concern about using
17· ·that driver's license as a photo ID to vote in the
18· ·2016 elections?
19· · · · A.· ·No, I don't have any concern using it
20· ·because I vote at the same precinct, everybody knows
21· ·me.· That's a picture form of ID.· A lot of people
22· ·don't have that.
23· · · · Q.· ·I want to direct your attention to
24· ·Interrogatory Number 20 and the response there.· And
25· ·you were asked to identify individuals who might
Page 32·1· ·have knowledge of the allegations that were made in
·2· ·the Complaint of this lawsuit, and you've listed
·3· ·some specific individuals there, and I just want to
·4· ·ask you about those.
·5· · · · · · ·You've listed, for example, the Reverend
·6· ·Asa Bell, of Pleasant Grove Baptist Church.· What
·7· ·information do you think Mr. Bell might have if any
·8· ·about the -- this lawsuit?
·9· · · · A.· ·I think he's very knowledgeable.
10· · · · Q.· ·Anything specifically?
11· · · · A.· ·I think he specifically knows everything
12· ·about it.
13· · · · Q.· ·But nothing in particular?
14· · · · A.· ·Well, he knows about asking for ID.
15· · · · Q.· ·What do you think he might know about
16· ·that?
17· · · · A.· ·I don't understand what you mean.· Would
18· ·you explain that to me?
19· · · · Q.· ·Sure, just -- I'm trying to understand
20· ·what you think Mr. Bell might have knowledge of
21· ·that's related to this lawsuit.· For example, does
22· ·he not have a valid ID that would work for 2016
23· ·or --
24· · · · A.· ·I think he would have a valid ID that
25· ·would work for 2016 and I think he's very -- I know
Page 33·1· ·he's very knowledgeable of this.· He reads.· He
·2· ·keeps up with the news, so he knows what's going on.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you've also listed Mr. Charles
·4· ·Upchurch who was the president of Wendell branch of
·5· ·the NAACP.
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·And did he succeed you in that position?
·8· · · · A.· ·No, he did not.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Well, how do you know Mr. Upchurch?
10· · · · A.· ·He is the president of that branch now,
11· ·but he did not succeed me.
12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And -- and what information
13· ·specifically do you think Mr. Upchurch might have
14· ·about this lawsuit?
15· · · · A.· ·He would have all the information because
16· ·he received -- he gets the information, what's
17· ·happening.
18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how about Sonia Barnes who's
19· ·president of the North Carolina Black Women and
20· ·Empowerment Network.· What information do you think
21· ·she might have about this lawsuit?
22· · · · A.· ·She would have all the information.
23· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, I want to refer you to one more
24· ·Interrogatory here and that's Interrogatory 22,
25· ·that's the last one, it's on a page by itself.· And
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 9 of 15
Page 34·1· ·here you are asked to identify any person other than
·2· ·your attorneys who you have discussed any
·3· ·allegations in the Complaint with, and you've listed
·4· ·two people, Reverend Dr. William Barber and Rosanell
·5· ·Eaton.
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·What did you discuss with Reverend Barber
·8· ·related to this lawsuit?
·9· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· I would just like to pause. I
10· · · · know that counsel did qualify that not to
11· · · · discuss things that you discussed with your
12· · · · attorneys but if you had conversations with Mr.
13· · · · Barber or Ms. Eaton where attorneys were
14· · · · present, I'd ask you to not disclose those two,
15· · · · but if you just had, you know, one-on-one
16· · · · conversations with Mr. Barber, those are okay
17· · · · to discuss.
18· · · · A.· ·No, we haven't had one-on-one
19· ·conversations.
20· · · · Q.· ·So any time you spoke with Mr. Barber
21· ·about the lawsuit, an attorney was present?
22· · · · A.· ·There's been others were present.
23· · · · Q.· ·How about with respect to Ms. Eaton, have
24· ·you had any conversations with Ms. Eaton about the
25· ·lawsuit when attorneys were not present?
Page 35·1· · · · A.· ·No.
·2· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· I don't think I have any
·3· · · · more questions for Ms. Perry at this time.
·4· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· I don't know that I'm going to
·5· · · · have too long, but I would like to just take a
·6· · · · break so Ms. Perry could have a minute, so
·7· · · · could we go off the record?
·8· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Sure.
·9· · · · · · ·MR. REHL:· We're off the record, the time
10· · · · is 1:40.
11· · · · · · ·(WHEREUPON A SHORT RECESS IS TAKEN.)
12· · · · · · ·MR. REHL:· We are now back on the record,
13· · · · the time is 1:48.
14· · · · · EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PLAINTIFFS
15· · · · · · · BY MR. GLICK:
16· · · · Q.· ·Good afternoon, Ms. Perry.· My name is
17· ·Michael Glick.· I'm with the law firm of Kirkland
18· ·and Ellis.
19· · · · · · ·Can you just state your name again for the
20· ·record?
21· · · · A.· ·Mary E. Perry.
22· · · · Q.· ·Where were you born, Ms. Perry?
23· · · · A.· ·I was born in Rocky Mount, North Carolina.
24· · · · Q.· ·And have you lived in North Carolina your
25· ·whole life?
Page 36·1· · · · A.· ·I've been in Rocky Mount -- I mean in --
·2· ·I've been in North Carolina my whole life, yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·And how old are you?
·4· · · · A.· ·I'm 85.
·5· · · · Q.· ·For the record, Ms. Perry, are you African
·6· ·American?
·7· · · · A.· ·Yes, I am.
·8· · · · Q.· ·Earlier today you discussed an incident, I
·9· ·believe at a movie theater?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·What year was that?
12· · · · A.· ·1946.
13· · · · Q.· ·And was the movie theater at that time
14· ·integrated or segregated?
15· · · · A.· ·It was segregated.· It was -- well, we
16· ·went to the same movie but like this was a movie
17· ·box.· You come through the line, the whites went on
18· ·this line and went upstairs -- no, I'm sorry, they
19· ·went --
20· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, can I just stop you for one
21· ·second?· Just because the court reporter is writing
22· ·down what you're saying.
23· · · · A.· ·Oh, I'm sorry.
24· · · · Q.· ·And I know there is a video but they're
25· ·not going to be able to see your hand moving.
Page 37·1· · · · A.· ·Okay.
·2· · · · Q.· ·So if you can just describe it with words,
·3· ·that would be great.
·4· · · · A.· ·Well, when you go to the movie, you get in
·5· ·one line but when you get up to the movie box, the
·6· ·line separates, one goes straight into the movie and
·7· ·the other goes upstairs.· And the blacks went
·8· ·upstairs and the whites went straight.· And we were
·9· ·all in the same line waiting to go into the movie.
10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Also earlier today you testified
11· ·that you got involved with Voter Outreach and
12· ·political education efforts because you felt there
13· ·was a need to get involved.
14· · · · A.· ·Yes.
15· · · · Q.· ·What do you mean by that?
16· · · · A.· ·Because of the things that was happening
17· ·in the community, and the things that was happening
18· ·to the people, things that happened to my mentor,
19· ·she taught -- she taught me that, you know, that I
20· ·needed to get involved and encouraged people to get
21· ·involved and I really became involved because of
22· ·that, because I had to walk three miles to school
23· ·and walk the dirt roads.· The school bus would come
24· ·down.· The kids in the bus would spit at you, and
25· ·the dust would dust you all up, and so I said all
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 10 of 15
Page 38·1· ·these things happened so that I know that it was
·2· ·time to get involved and do whatever you could.
·3· · · · Q.· ·You said the kids on the bus.· What race
·4· ·were the kids on the bus?
·5· · · · A.· ·They were white.· The blacks had to walk.
·6· ·The bus came right by your house, you couldn't ride
·7· ·the bus.
·8· · · · Q.· ·You said -- you made reference to the
·9· ·things happening in the community.· What types of
10· ·things were you talking about?
11· · · · A.· ·Police brutality, blacks getting arrested
12· ·and whites not, and couldn't get jobs, blacks
13· ·couldn't get jobs, all those things.· Going to
14· ·school, your children's textbooks was all raggedy,
15· ·they had hand me down textbooks.
16· · · · Q.· ·Did you attend integrated schools or
17· ·segregated schools growing up?
18· · · · A.· ·I attended segregated schools.
19· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, you testified earlier today
20· ·that you voted personally in North Carolina
21· ·elections; is that right?
22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · Q.· ·Why do you vote in person as opposed
24· ·through the mail-in process?
25· · · · A.· ·I vote in person because too many people
Page 39·1· ·died for the right to vote and we couldn't vote and
·2· ·I want to go and cast my vote personally and make
·3· ·sure that I cast it and be counted.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever missed voting --
·5· · · · A.· ·No.
·6· · · · Q.· ·-- in person?
·7· · · · · · ·Now, you also testified earlier that you
·8· ·have a photo identification, a license to vote in
·9· ·the election?
10· · · · A.· ·Yes.
11· · · · Q.· ·But you testified when Mr. McKnight asked
12· ·you, you said there are a lot people who don't have
13· ·that.
14· · · · A.· ·There's a lot of people don't have it, a
15· ·lot of people don't drive.
16· · · · Q.· ·Are you aware of registered voters in
17· ·North Carolina who do not possess a photo
18· ·identification that could be used to vote in the
19· ·election?
20· · · · A.· ·I'm aware of people that do not have
21· ·driver's license.· And that's something -- I know a
22· ·few who do not have any type of ID, they would have
23· ·to try to get it.
24· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, you understand that the state
25· ·is making available special no fee voter
Page 40·1· ·identification cards?· Have you heard anything about
·2· ·that?
·3· · · · A.· ·I've heard about that.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Do you believe those cards will help those
·5· ·individuals who don't possess a driver's license?
·6· · · · A.· ·How is it going to be no fee?· I live in
·7· ·the country, if I didn't have a license or anything,
·8· ·and I got to go come to Motor Vehicle in Raleigh or
·9· ·wherever the Motor Vehicle, how am I going to get
10· ·there?· Nobody is not going to come and take me for
11· ·nothing.· I'm going to have to pay to get there.
12· ·It's still going to cost you.
13· · · · Q.· ·I wanted to talk also about your
14· ·experience with early voting.· You testified earlier
15· ·that you voted early in North Carolina elections?
16· · · · A.· ·Yes.
17· · · · Q.· ·How many times would you say you've done
18· ·that?
19· · · · A.· ·How many times have I --
20· · · · Q.· ·How many times have you used the early
21· ·voting process?
22· · · · A.· ·I have used it -- I say it's been probably
23· ·about two times that I have not used it, other times
24· ·I've used it.
25· · · · Q.· ·So all the elections but maybe two since
Page 41·1· ·it was initiated in 2000 here in North Carolina?
·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Why do you vote early?
·4· · · · A.· ·I vote early because I don't want to stand
·5· ·in those long lines.· I don't know what's going to
·6· ·happen on election day, I might not can get to the
·7· ·poles, it might be raining or whatever.· So I want
·8· ·and go and vote early, make sure that I have voted.
·9· ·And then after I vote, I maybe help other people to
10· ·the poles on election day.
11· · · · Q.· ·I want to talk about both of those things.
12· ·The first thing you said is you don't want to wait
13· ·in those lines.· Are you referring to the long lines
14· ·on the -- on the election day?
15· · · · A.· ·Yes, if there's a long line, I just
16· ·really -- I just want to vote early, make sure that
17· ·I have cast my vote.
18· · · · Q.· ·Why don't you want to wait in a long line?
19· · · · A.· ·Well, I can't wait in a long line now.
20· · · · Q.· ·Why not?
21· · · · A.· ·Because I have legs problems, I'm old and
22· ·I can't stand that long.· If I have to go to the
23· ·elections to vote now and have to get -- stand in
24· ·that long line, I can't do it.· And I have seen some
25· ·people come up and leave and didn't vote.· I have
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 11 of 15
Page 42·1· ·seen that personally happen.
·2· · · · Q.· ·You talked a little bit earlier about your
·3· ·experience voting early in the 2014 midterm
·4· ·election.· How did your experience voting in the
·5· ·2014 midterm election compare to the 2010 midterm
·6· ·election?
·7· · · · A.· ·2010, the line wasn't as long.· The line
·8· ·was not as long.· I guess it's because they had more
·9· ·days to get to the poles.
10· · · · Q.· ·Now, Ms. Perry, you're still aware that
11· ·the state, even after the enactment of HB-589 still
12· ·allows for ten days of early voting.· Are you aware
13· ·of that?
14· · · · A.· ·Yes, I am.
15· · · · Q.· ·As someone who has voted early in multiple
16· ·elections, is that enough time?
17· · · · A.· ·No.
18· · · · Q.· ·Why not?
19· · · · A.· ·Because if people -- we're hoping to get
20· ·more people, people are registering more and you're
21· ·out there getting people to register and you tell
22· ·them that they can go vote and they need that time
23· ·frame.
24· · · · Q.· ·Why is that?
25· · · · A.· ·Why -- so they'll be sure to be able to
Page 43·1· ·cast their vote.
·2· · · · Q.· ·A good segue, you talked about voter
·3· ·registration and I want to talk a little bit about
·4· ·that.· Have you been involved in registering voters
·5· ·in North Carolina?
·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·How so?
·8· · · · A.· ·Well, I've been registering -- you mean,
·9· ·how do I vote?· How do I carry them to vote or --
10· · · · Q.· ·How -- how -- just focus on the
11· ·registration component right now.· Can you describe
12· ·your -- the activities that you've been involved in
13· ·over the many years registering people to vote?
14· · · · A.· ·Well, I have -- we have gone to shopping
15· ·centers, grocery stores, we have registered people
16· ·at the church.
17· · · · Q.· ·And how many voters would you estimate
18· ·that you've helped register to vote?
19· · · · A.· ·I've registered over 10,000 votes.
20· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry, over 10,000?
21· · · · A.· ·Over 10,000.
22· · · · Q.· ·Now, do you only help African American
23· ·citizens to register to vote?
24· · · · A.· ·No, when you set up to vote, set up the
25· ·register, you put your table out, you have your
Page 44·1· ·sign, register to vote here, and that anybody that
·2· ·come up there and wants to register can register.
·3· · · · Q.· ·Now, were you aware that before the
·4· ·enactment of HB-589, people were able to register to
·5· ·vote on the same day that they voted early?
·6· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Objection, calls for a
·7· · · · legal conclusion.
·8· · · · Q.· ·You can answer.
·9· · · · A.· ·Yes.
10· · · · Q.· ·Do you know of anyone who was affected by
11· ·the change in that law?
12· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.
13· · · · Q.· ·How were they affected?
14· · · · A.· ·Repeat your question.
15· · · · Q.· ·How were those people affected?
16· · · · A.· ·Well, they want -- if they go for the same
17· ·day, with this new law, they won't be able to
18· ·register.
19· · · · Q.· ·And do you know of individuals who were
20· ·affected by that in the 2014 election?
21· · · · A.· ·Yes, I do.
22· · · · Q.· ·Did those individuals ultimately vote in
23· ·the 2014 election?
24· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
25· · · · Q.· ·I'm sorry?
Page 45·1· · · · A.· ·They didn't vote.
·2· · · · Q.· ·They did not?
·3· · · · A.· ·No, they did not vote at all.
·4· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, you also talked a little about
·5· ·driving people to the poles.· Can you talk about
·6· ·your experience driving voters to the poles?
·7· · · · A.· ·Well, the way that people will call me for
·8· ·a ride, they -- we put out -- sometimes it's on the
·9· ·radio, call such and such a number or what have you,
10· ·and even in churches they have that, you know, if
11· ·you need a ride to the pole, call this number, and
12· ·they call me and I get them and take them to the
13· ·pole.
14· · · · Q.· ·Can I just ask you to keep your voice up,
15· ·I don't have too many more questions.
16· · · · A.· ·Okay.
17· · · · Q.· ·You drive people to the poles in your own
18· ·vehicle?
19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
20· · · · Q.· ·For how many elections have you driven
21· ·voters to the poles?
22· · · · A.· ·I can't remember that, it's been --
23· · · · Q.· ·More than five?
24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
25· · · · Q.· ·More than ten?
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 12 of 15
Page 46·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·2· · · · Q.· ·And --
·3· · · · A.· ·Twenty-five or thirty.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And on average, on the average election
·5· ·day or early voting period, how many voters would
·6· ·you say that you drove to the poles in each
·7· ·election?
·8· · · · A.· ·On the average, on the -- during the day?
·9· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
10· · · · A.· ·On average, now this is not everyday but
11· ·on average, I say from eight to ten.
12· · · · Q.· ·Now, the same question that I asked about
13· ·voter registration and your involvement in that.· Do
14· ·you only drive African American voters to the poles?
15· · · · A.· ·Anybody that needs a ride to the poles,
16· ·call that number.· It doesn't say blacks call it or
17· ·whites call it.· It says if you need a ride to the
18· ·poles, call this number, or either people know that
19· ·I -- they're familiar that I do this and they would
20· ·call or either they see me and say, "Girl, I'm going
21· ·to need a ride to the poles, pick me up at so and so
22· ·time."
23· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, when you drive a voter to the
24· ·poles, do you bring them to just any precinct to
25· ·vote?
Page 47·1· · · · A.· ·I carry them to their precinct.
·2· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever purposefully --
·3· · · · A.· ·Except on early voting, early voting I
·4· ·take them to the site.
·5· · · · Q.· ·You take them to the early voting site?
·6· · · · A.· ·Early voting site, yeah.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever purposefully brought a voter
·8· ·to the wrong precinct?
·9· · · · A.· ·No.
10· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever heard of a case where a bus
11· ·or van purposefully took voters to the wrong
12· ·precinct?
13· · · · A.· ·No.
14· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, how long have you been involved
15· ·with North Carolina elections?
16· · · · A.· ·Longer than I could remember.
17· · · · Q.· ·Have you, in all of your years that you
18· ·have been involved, have you ever experienced voter
19· ·fraud or election fraud in a North Carolina
20· ·election?
21· · · · A.· ·I have not.
22· · · · Q.· ·Given your experience, do you believe
23· ·changes in the voting laws were necessary to protect
24· ·against voter fraud?
25· · · · A.· ·No.
Page 48·1· · · · Q.· ·And again, given your experience, how do
·2· ·you believe the changes in the election laws have
·3· ·affected voter confidence?
·4· · · · A.· ·A lot of people now are afraid, they're
·5· ·intimidated by this law.· They state, you know, I
·6· ·don't know where to go get it.· What am I going to
·7· ·have to have?· I don't have that.· I don't have a
·8· ·picture ID.· What -- how many I going to get all
·9· ·this stuff?· I can't afford to do that.
10· · · · Q.· ·Any other reason that you've heard of that
11· ·people are intimidated or have lost confidence?
12· · · · A.· ·I'm not sure right now.
13· · · · · · ·MR. GLICK:· Pass the witness.· No further
14· · · · questions.
15· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Just a couple of questions,
16· · · · I think.
17· · · ·FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE DEFENDANTS
18· · · · · · ·BY MR. McKNIGHT:
19· · · · Q.· ·Ms. Perry, you mentioned that you have
20· ·some physical limitations that make it difficult for
21· ·to stand in long lines; is that right?
22· · · · A.· ·(Witness nods head.)
23· · · · Q.· ·And you said that you have stood in long
24· ·lines in 2012 and you mentioned that you had to wait
25· ·in a line in 2014; is that right?
Page 49·1· · · · A.· ·(Witness nods head.)
·2· · · · Q.· ·Yes?
·3· · · · A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · Q.· ·And --
·5· · · · A.· ·And that they're not as long, not, I said
·6· ·ten -- about ten minutes.
·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
·8· · · · A.· ·I guess you don't call that so long.
·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And have you ever asked anybody at
10· ·any Board of Elections site for assistance because
11· ·you were unable to stand in the line?
12· · · · A.· ·No, I haven't.
13· · · · Q.· ·Did you feel like you needed that
14· ·assistance or did you not want to ask?
15· · · · A.· ·I didn't stand that long to need
16· ·assistance but right now, and I'm getting worse and
17· ·worse every year.· I have arthritis and every year
18· ·it gets worse and worse and the older I get, now I
19· ·can't do now what I did last year, and Lord willing,
20· ·I'll be here a few more years and I won't be able to
21· ·do then what I can do now.· So therefore, you know,
22· ·I will eventually -- I got a cane in the car now.
23· · · · Q.· ·Would you feel comfortable asking for
24· ·assistance if you felt like you needed it?
25· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I would ask for and I guess I would
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 13 of 15
Page 50·1· ·ask for it if I needed it but, you know something,
·2· ·if it's raining out there, do you want to sit out
·3· ·there in that rain?
·4· · · · Q.· ·I couldn't imagine anybody would.
·5· · · · · · ·I don't think I have any further questions
·6· ·for Ms. Perry.
·7· · · · · · ·Thank you for your time, ma'am.
·8· · · · A.· ·Thank you.
·9· · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Off the record.
10· · · · · · ·MR. REHL:· This concludes the deposition.
11· · · · The time is 2:04.
12· · · · · · ·(WHEREUPON THE DEPOSITION IS CONCLUDED AT
13· · · · 2:04 P.M.)
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Page 51·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·E R R A T A
·2· ·WITNESS NAME:· · · ·Mary E. Perry· · · · · · March 12, 2015
·3· ·PAGE· · · · ·LINE· · · · · CHANGE· · · · · · · · · · ·REASON
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14· · · ·I, Mary E. Perry, have read the foregoing deposition and
15· ·hereby affix my signature that same is true and correct,
16· ·except as noted above.
17
18· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · _______________________________
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Mary E. Perry
19
20
21· ·Sworn to and subscribed before me
22· ·________________________________,Notary Public.
23· ·This________day of_____________________, 2015.
24· ·My Commission Expires:__________________________
25
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 14 of 15
Page 54·1· · · · · · · · · C E R T I F I C A T E
·2· · · · ·I, Lynn A. Ruggiro, Shorthand Reporter and Notary
·3· ·Public, do hereby certify that the above-named witness was
·4· ·duly sworn by my prior to the taking of the foregoing
·5· ·deposition; and that said deposition was taken and
·6· ·transcribed under my supervision; and that the foregoing
·7· ·pages, inclusive, constitute a true and accurate
·8· ·transcription of the testimony of the witness.
·9· · · · I do further certify that the persons were present as
10· ·stated in the caption.
11· · · · I do further certify that I am not of counsel for or in
12· ·the employment of any of the parties to this action, nor am
13· ·I interested in the results of this action.
14· · · ·IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto subscribed my name
15· ·this 18th day of March, 2015.
16
17
18· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · _____________________________
· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Lynn A. Ruggiro
19· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Notary Public No. 20030830270
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Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-48 Filed 07/08/15 Page 15 of 15
TAWANDA PITT June 1, 2015
DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS www.discoverydepo.com 1-919-424-8242
1 (Pages 1 to 4)
1
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
NORTH CAROLINA STATE CONFERENCE )
OF THE NAACP, et al., )
)
Plaintiffs, )
)
v. ) Civil Action No.
) 1:13-CV-658
PATRICK LLOYD McCRORY, in his )
official capacity as the Governor )
of North Carolina, et al., )
)
Defendants. )
_________________________________
_
LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF NORTH )
CAROLINA, et al., )
)
Plaintiffs, )
) 1:13-CV-660
v. )
)
THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,)
)
Defendants. )
_________________________________
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )
)
Plaintiff, ) 1:13-CV-861
)
v. )
)
THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,)
)
Defendants )
DEPOSITION OF
TAWANDA PITT
2
1
2
3
4
DEPOSITION OF TAWANDA PITT
5 ________________________________________________
6 3:30 P.M.
7 MONDAY, JUNE 1, 2015
________________________________________________
8
9 THOMAS & FARRIS, P.A.
10 104 NASH STREET, N.E.
11 WILSON, NORTH CAROLINA
12
13
14
15 By: Jennifer C. Carroll, RPR, CRR
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25
3
1 A P P E A R A N C E S2 For the Plaintiff League of Women Voters:3 Southern Coalition for Social Justice
BY: Allison J. Riggs, Esquire4 1415 Highway 54, Suite 101
Durham, North Carolina 277075 (919) 323-3380
For the Defendant North Carolina Board of Elections:7
Ogletree, Deakins, Nash, Smoak & Stewart, P.C.8 BY: Michael D. McKnight, Esquire
4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 11009 Raleigh, North Carolina 27609
(919) 787-970010 [email protected]
12 Videographer: Brent Troublefield13 --oOo--14
15
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4
1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION
2
WITNESS: PAGE
3
4 TAWANDA PITT
5 Examination by Ms. Riggs 5
6 Examination by Mr. McKnight 12
7
8 --oOo--
9
10 INDEX OF EXHIBITS
11
12
13 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
14 1 NC Voter Information 26
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--oOo--
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Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-49 Filed 07/08/15 Page 1 of 8
TAWANDA PITT June 1, 2015
DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS www.discoverydepo.com 1-919-424-8242
2 (Pages 5 to 8)
5
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at
3 3:57 p.m. Today's date is June 1st, 2015. This
4 is the videotaped deposition of Tawanda Pitt,
5 taken in the matter of the NAACP versus Patrick
6 Lloyd McCrory, in his official capacity as the
7 Governor of North Carolina. Case
8 number 1:13-CV-658 and all related matters.
9 Would counsel now please introduce
10 themselves.
11 MS. RIGGS: My name is Allison Riggs. I
12 represent the League of Women Voters, plaintiffs.
13 MR. McKNIGHT: And good afternoon,
14 Ms. Pitt. My name is Michael McKnight, and I
15 represent the State Board of Elections,
16 defendants.
17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: And would the court
18 reporter please swear in the witness.
19 TAWANDA PITT,
20 having been first sworn by the court reporter and
21 Notary Public to tell the truth, the whole truth, and
22 nothing but the truth, testified as follows:
23 EXAMINATION
24 BY MS. RIGGS:
25 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Pitt.
6
1 A. Hello.
2 Q. Can you state your full name for the record,
3 please?
4 A. Tawanda Denise Pitt.
5 Q. Okay. And when were you born, Ms. Pitt?
6 A. July 10th, 1972.
7 Q. Okay. Have you ever had your deposition taken
8 before?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. So I'll just go over, real quick, the --
11 the guidelines of the deposition. The court
12 reporter is typing up what we say. And so it's
13 very important that we not talk over each other,
14 because she can't be writing what we both say at
15 the same time. So I'll wait until you're done
16 answering before I ask my question; and if you
17 wait until I'm done asking the question before
18 answering, it will make her job much easier.
19 And then the other major thing is:
20 She's typing, and so she needs our answers to be
21 verbal. So if it's a yes-or-no answer, please
22 say "yes" or "no," not nod your head or shake
23 your head, because she can't catch that. Is that
24 okay?
25 A. Okay.
7
1 Q. If you need a break, just let me know. We can
2 take a break. I don't think we'll be here long
3 enough for that --
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. -- to be necessary. But in case you do need a
6 rest room break or a drink break, just let me
7 know. We'll finish the question that we're on
8 and move on.
9 Counsel -- we might make objections to
10 the -- and all that means is we don't like how
11 the question is being asked. But you go -- you
12 can go ahead and answer it anyway. It's just a
13 formality. So you don't need --
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. -- to worry about that.
16 Is there any reason you can't answer
17 questions today truthfully or honestly?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. How are you employed, Ms. Pitt?
20 A. I'm a CNA.
21 Q. Okay. And how long have you been doing that
22 work?
23 A. I've been doing CNA work since 2010.
24 Q. And just for the record, what does "CNA" stand
25 for?
8
1 A. Certified nursing assistant.
2 Q. Okay. What's your address, Ms. Pitt?
3 A. 3722 Starship Lane, Apartment B, Wilson, North
4 Carolina 27896.
5 Q. How long have you lived in Wilson?
6 A. I've been in Wilson approximately 19 years.
7 Q. And where did you live before that?
8 A. I lived on Tarboro Street.
9 Q. Also in Wilson?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. Were you born in North Carolina?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Have you lived here your whole life?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Where -- which town were you born in?
16 A. In Tarboro, North Carolina.
17 Q. Oh, in Tarboro. Okay.
18 What -- do you have family here in North
19 Carolina?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Children?
22 A. Children. My mom, my dad, my aunts, uncles.
23 Q. Okay. Do you remember when you first registered
24 to vote?
25 A. The first time I ever registered?
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9
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Yes, I do. I remember going to the -- to the
3 DMV, getting my license, and I registered.
4 Q. Okay. So was that maybe when you were 16 or 18?
5 A. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Okay. Just remember to say "yes."
7 A. Yes. Sorry.
8 Q. That's okay.
9 Do you consider yourself a regular
10 voter?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you vote in presidential elections?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you vote in nonpresidential elections?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you want to vote in 2014?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you try to vote in 2014?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you tell me a little bit about what happened
21 when you tried to vote in 2014?
22 A. My son and I went to the voter -- voter place,
23 and it was a line down the side of the -- of the
24 curve. And my son said, "Mom, are you going to
25 stay in this line and vote?"
10
1 I said, "Yes, we need to vote. It's
2 very important to vote."
3 So I walked past a couple of people,
4 just to see what was going on. And as I got up
5 to the front of the line, it was more people
6 inside the building.
7 And I asked the lady, I said, "What in
8 the world is going on?"
9 And she said, "Well, we only have two
10 computers. One more is on the way. Just leave
11 and come back later."
12 So my son and I left. It was about --
13 it was about 3:30, quarter to 4:00. We left and
14 I returned back to the same spot again about
15 6 o'clock, and the line was worse.
16 Q. Do you remember -- the first time that you went,
17 around 3:30 or 4:00, do you remember how long you
18 waited that time?
19 A. Forty-five minutes to an hour.
20 Q. Okay. And then when you came back later, what
21 happened? So the line was longer, then what
22 happened?
23 A. The line was longer. I was frustrated. By then,
24 I stood there about 35, 40 minutes. The other
25 computer had never arrived that they were waiting
11
1 on to come, the laptop.
2 Q. Did you end up voting?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Why not?
5 A. I was frustrated.
6 Q. Did that second time that you were there, did you
7 wait that time, too?
8 A. Uh-huh. Waited about 30, 35 minutes.
9 Q. Okay. Both times?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. Okay. Did your son ever go back to vote?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did -- were you aware that early voting had been
14 reduced prior to the 2014 election?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you have an opinion on -- on how that affected
17 your voting experience?
18 A. I feel like that's why the lines was so long,
19 because of that. I think if they had extended it
20 a little more, it might would have decreased, you
21 know, the line and the wait time. And then the
22 computers, you know, they didn't have enough
23 computers to supply all those people.
24 Q. Okay. How did that whole process make you feel?
25 A. I was disappointed --
12
1 Q. Why?
2 A. -- and frustrated.
3 Because I feel like my vote didn't get
4 counted. And my vote should matter. And it
5 could have made a difference.
6 MS. RIGGS: Ms. Pitt, those are all the
7 questions that I have for you. Now Mr. McKnight
8 will ask you a few questions.
9 EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. McKNIGHT:
11 Q. All right. Good afternoon again, Ms. Pitt.
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. And I just want to find out a little bit more
14 about your experience on election day and --
15 and -- and your experience as a voter in general,
16 if I could.
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. Did you ever attempt to go and vote during early
19 voting before the November of 2014 election?
20 A. Yes, I have did it before.
21 Early register, that's what you mean?
22 Q. Well --
23 A. Early vote. I went to the poll downtown. I did
24 go.
25 Q. Okay. So -- well, let me -- let me be clear
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13
1 about what we're talking about, then. So -- so
2 before election day, the experience that you just
3 described, that occurred on election day --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- in November of 2014, right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And so before election day, did you attempt to go
8 vote during early voting?
9 A. No. I did not this time. No. Because my work
10 schedule didn't allow me to do it.
11 Q. And you said your work schedule didn't allow you
12 to go vote during early voting.
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. All right.
15 A. I got off early to go vote that day, I did --
16 that I did go on the 14th. I got off early to go
17 vote.
18 Q. What you're talking about is on election day?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And -- and you said the -- the 14th. Does
21 November 4th sound more accurate than the 14th?
22 A. I don't -- look, I don't know what the date was.
23 But I'm telling you, I did get off early that
24 particular day because my clients said I could
25 because she had went and voted herself.
14
1 Q. Okay. I see. Well, I wouldn't know the day
2 either if I hadn't taken all these depositions.
3 So I -- that's the only way I remember what day
4 it is.
5 So -- okay. Fair enough. So before the
6 November of 2014 election, though, you -- you did
7 not try to go vote during early voting?
8 A. Uh-uh. No.
9 Q. And do you know what the schedule for early
10 voting was in Wilson County in 2014?
11 A. I cannot recall. I know that I do recall the
12 hours was from 8 o'clock in the morning till 7:00
13 at one -- at one place downtown. And I only knew
14 that because I had saw the little signs up, the
15 little posters and stuff they put up. But not to
16 be specific about it, no.
17 Q. And do you recall how many days of early voting
18 were available in -- in Wilson County in 2014?
19 A. I think it was four.
20 Q. Just -- you think it was just four?
21 A. I think it was just four days.
22 Q. Is that --
23 A. Thursday, Friday -- I think Thursday, Friday,
24 Saturday, Sunday. Might no -- it might have been
25 four. Because it wasn't like -- it normally was
15
1 like a week before in the past. A week or two.
2 But this time it was like -- it was shorter.
3 Q. Do you think that's true of all locations or just
4 one location?
5 A. I think it was true for all locations. I -- I
6 don't know. I'm just saying from what I think,
7 now. It could have been all locations.
8 Q. And so at any point did -- did you try to look up
9 the schedule for early voting to determine
10 whether you -- you might be able to go and -- and
11 vote early?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. And -- and why not?
14 A. Because my schedule. I was working seven days a
15 week. I knew that I couldn't fit it into my
16 schedule. My mom went on a Saturday, you know,
17 so I -- I couldn't fit it into my schedule.
18 Q. All right. And I think you said on election day
19 you were able to take off early to go vote.
20 A. Yeah. I did. And that was only because she --
21 my client knew it was election day and she wanted
22 me to vote -- make sure I voted. That's the only
23 reason why I got off early that day.
24 Q. And you said your client. Right. Is that -- do
25 you -- as a certified nursing assistant, do -- do
16
1 you sit with a patient or something like that?
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. All right. And that's individually? Do
4 you sit in their home, is that what you do?
5 A. Yep. Sometimes you might have one or more
6 patient a day, you know. During that time, I
7 think I was having like two to three patients,
8 because I was doing fill-ins for the office that
9 I work for.
10 Q. But you didn't ask whether you could get off
11 early to go vote early or not?
12 A. Not until -- till voting day. That my client
13 that I had, she said, "Baby, you need to get off
14 work early and go vote." She said, "I voted this
15 morning. You need to make sure you go today.
16 It's very important that you vote." And she let
17 me get off early.
18 Q. And -- and so you said that you first arrived at
19 your voting site on election day around 3 or 4
20 o'clock; is that right?
21 A. No. It was about 3:30, because school was
22 letting out. School was out.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. Because I -- when I first walked up to the line,
25 I thought that it was just a early release from
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17
1 the kids, the school. But when I got up to the
2 line, it was actual people standing in line to
3 vote, because it's at -- it's held at a school.
4 Q. And -- and had you gone to that precinct at any
5 time before 3:30 that day?
6 A. No. Because I didn't get off until that time.
7 Q. So do you have any idea what the lines were like
8 before you arrived there around 3:30?
9 A. According to the lady that was working inside,
10 she said the lines had been like that all day
11 long.
12 Q. But that's just what she told you?
13 A. Yeah. Yeah. She was -- I mean, she was the lady
14 that was -- that was waiting for the other
15 computer to come back that I talked to.
16 Q. Do you think that she worked for the elections
17 board or -- or -- or was she just someone else?
18 I mean, do you know --
19 A. I think she worked for the election board,
20 because she knew about the computer was on its
21 way and all that.
22 Q. And then you said the second time you -- you came
23 back, that was around 6 o'clock; is that right?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. All right. And you said you waited for about
18
1 30-some minutes there?
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. And how do you know that the other computer had
4 not arrived?
5 A. Because I asked the question again. I bypassed
6 people. Because I was like, this is ridiculous
7 that I got to stand in this line this long.
8 And the lady said, "We're waiting for
9 another computer and the computer hasn't gotten
10 here."
11 And then George called me, and he
12 confirmed what the lady had said about the
13 computer was on the way.
14 Q. You said George called.
15 A. Uh-huh. I called the 1-800 number about the
16 voting problem, and I talked to -- he was from
17 the Southern Coalition. George.
18 Q. George Eppsteiner, does that sound right?
19 A. Yep. That's him.
20 Q. Okay. So on election day, you called an 800
21 number --
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. -- and you were connected with somebody with the
24 Southern Coalition for Social Justice?
25 A. Uh-huh.
19
1 Q. And -- and you think that person was George
2 Eppsteiner?
3 A. It was him.
4 Q. Okay. And -- and -- and tell me about what you
5 recall saying to Mr. Eppsteiner.
6 A. I told him that I had been to vote. And he asked
7 me where was I voting. I told him New Hope
8 School, in the New Hope district. And he asked
9 me what was the problem.
10 I said, I went to vote and the line is
11 horrible. And my son and I stood in line for
12 like the first time 35, 40 -- 40 minutes, at the
13 most. I said, and they only had two computers.
14 And I said, they normally will have more than
15 that.
16 Because they have a little table set up,
17 and they normally have like four or five
18 computers. They only had two that day.
19 Q. And that was based upon your prior experience; is
20 that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. And he said, "Well, Ms. Pitt, let me find out
24 what's going on and I'll call you back." He
25 said, "Please return back so you can make sure
20
1 you vote."
2 And I did go back.
3 And when he called my phone, he said,
4 "I'm under -- under the impression there that
5 they have two computers and one more is supposed
6 to be on the way."
7 He said, "Have you gotten back there
8 yet?"
9 I said, "Yes. I'm outside and the line
10 is longer than it was the first time."
11 And he said, "Well, just bear with them.
12 They're -- they're waiting on the other computer
13 to get here. Just, you know, bear with them."
14 And I said, "Well, I'll stay out here
15 for a little longer, but I don't know how long
16 I'm going to stay."
17 And that was the end of the conversation.
18 Q. Okay. And -- and the computer incident, the --
19 the lack of the -- the third computer that you
20 were talking about, did you find out about that
21 only from Mr. Eppsteiner, or did you find --
22 A. No. The lady. The lady -- George confirmed what
23 the lady had said.
24 Q. I see.
25 And do you remember when you next spoke
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21
1 with someone from the Southern Coalition for
2 Social Justice about this matter?
3 A. He called me back later on that night to ask me
4 did I ever get a chance to vote, and I told him
5 no. He asked me did my son vote, and I said no.
6 Q. And what -- what's your son's name, by the way?
7 A. His name is Marquavious Pitt.
8 Q. Could you spell the first name?
9 A. M-A-R-Q-U-A-V-I-O-U-S.
10 Q. All right. What's his date of birth?
11 A. 94.
12 Q. And then after you spoke with Mr. Eppsteiner
13 about that, did you speak with anyone from the
14 Southern Coalition for Social Justice again after
15 that?
16 A. George called. George -- he called me a couple
17 more times. As a matter of fact, he's been real
18 persistent. He's called me. And Alice called.
19 Uh-huh.
20 Q. And what did you speak with him about after --
21 after that?
22 A. Them come and talk to me about a deposition.
23 Q. What did they tell you about that?
24 A. That they wanted to know what happened and what
25 led up to the events and how -- how the voting
22
1 polls and everything was set up when I went
2 there.
3 Q. Okay. And did they ask you to be a witness in
4 this lawsuit at some point?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay. Well, how -- how did you end up getting to
7 be a witness in the lawsuit?
8 A. Because they wanted my story. I mean, if I have
9 to be a witness, I will be one, you know.
10 Q. Okay. All right. Well, no, I -- I see what
11 you're saying. You're -- you're here testifying
12 now.
13 A. Right.
14 Q. So -- so you are a witness.
15 A. Right.
16 Q. All right. All right.
17 A. -- lawsuit. I'm just wanting to make sure I be
18 able to vote next time.
19 Q. All right. And -- and you said -- so you arrived
20 at the poll the second time about 6 o'clock,
21 right?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. And you said you waited for 35 minutes --
24 A. Thirty. Uh-huh.
25 Q. -- or -- or so?
23
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Okay. And -- and -- and then you decide to leave
3 at some point.
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. You and your son decide to leave.
6 Now, why did you decide to leave?
7 A. Because it was -- I had been there twice. And
8 the computer hadn't showed up, apparently. I
9 asked the lady. She said it hadn't gotten there
10 yet. So what time was the computer going to get
11 there? She never gave me an answer.
12 Q. And how long was the line, would you say, at the
13 time you left?
14 A. It was about -- it was long. About a quarter of
15 a mile. It was long.
16 Q. Did you say "quarter of a mile"?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. How -- how would you estimate that?
19 A. I say from this -- from the inside of this
20 building, out to -- to the courthouse.
21 Do you know where the courthouse is?
22 Q. Yes. Yes.
23 A. That's how long it was.
24 Q. Okay. All right.
25 A. And that's a long line. And it was not, like,
24
1 just single file. People was standing, like,
2 side by side, just standing in line, waiting.
3 Q. And is there a point in your mind that you think
4 a line would be too long that you wouldn't wait
5 in it to vote?
6 A. I feel like that given the circumstances, due to
7 the early registration voting, I think that they
8 should have been better prepared than what they
9 were.
10 Q. And -- and I guess my question, though, was: Is
11 there -- is there a certain point, though, that
12 you think a line would be too long that you would
13 not stand in it in order to vote?
14 A. That was too long.
15 Q. At -- at what -- at what point would it become
16 too long? Was it at 35 minutes or --
17 A. Thirty-five minutes, because it wasn't getting
18 any shorter. It was still -- it was at a
19 standstill. Because if you think about this, you
20 got over 180 people in line, if not -- not more,
21 and you got two computers, the wait time -- they
22 call you up to the line, they ask you for your
23 name, and they give you all this paperwork. Then
24 you go to the poll, to the little booth, to vote.
25 Q. And -- and on election day, at the time you left
REDACTED
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1 around 6:35 or so, do you have any idea how much
2 longer you would have had to wait in order to
3 vote?
4 A. Probably about another 45 minutes.
5 Q. And at the time you left, did you have something
6 else you needed to go do or you were just --
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. -- tired?
9 A. Cook super for my -- my baby and help him with
10 his homework.
11 Q. Well, you didn't have to go back to work or
12 anything like that?
13 A. No. Uh-uh.
14 Q. And during early voting, I -- I know you said
15 that you -- you didn't attempt to early vote
16 before the November 2014 election. Do you have
17 any knowledge about how long the lines were or if
18 there were lines at all during early voting in --
19 in Wilson County before the November 2014
20 election?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And in the past, have you used any methods of
23 voting other than voting on election day or early
24 voting?
25 A. No.
26
1 Q. Have you ever voted using an absentee ballot?
2 A. No. Not that I can recall.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. And I -- I was looking at your election record
5 here. And maybe it would be a good idea if I
6 just show it to you. And I want to ask you if
7 you -- if this might refresh your -- your memory
8 about this. I don't know if we have any exhibit
9 stickers or not.
10 (Exhibit Number 1 is marked.)
11 Q. So I'm going to mark this document as -- as Pitt
12 Exhibit 1 and hand it to you. Hand a copy to
13 Ms. Riggs.
14 And Ms. Pitt, is this a document that
15 you've seen before at some point?
16 A. No. Not that I recall.
17 Q. And I wouldn't expect that -- that you would.
18 Some -- some witnesses have reviewed these
19 with -- with counsel before the depositions.
20 But what this is, Ms. Pitt, is if you go
21 to the State Board of Elections website and you
22 type in a voter's name, there's certain public
23 information about the voter --
24 A. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
25 Q. -- that will -- that will come up. And when I
27
1 typed in your name, this is what came up. And I
2 believe that the address that you gave earlier,
3 on Starship Lane --
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. -- is -- is your name and address under the voter
6 details on this Exhibit 1, is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And the polling place that we were discussing
9 that you went to on election day in 2014,
10 November 2014, that's listed as New Hope School?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. Is that the polling place you went to?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. And then -- so I wanted to direct
15 your attention to Voter History on the second
16 page. And it says in -- in 2004 -- for each time
17 that you vote, it lists the voting method.
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. And it says absentee in 2004. So that's why I
20 was asking you that question.
21 Do -- do you remember whether you used a
22 mail-in absentee ballot in that election --
23 A. No. I don't remember that. I don't recall that
24 at all.
25 Q. Okay. All right. And -- and would you have any
28
1 objection to using a mail-in absentee ballot
2 as -- as a -- as a method of voting in the
3 future?
4 A. Yes. I don't trust it.
5 Q. Okay. But you don't know whether you -- you did
6 that in 2004?
7 A. No. I don't -- I don't remember doing that.
8 Q. Okay. And why -- you say you don't trust it.
9 Why is that?
10 A. Because the mail get lost every day.
11 Q. And you testified earlier, too, that you thought
12 that a reduction in the number of days of early
13 voting may have caused the line that you saw when
14 you went to vote on election day.
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. And can you explain to me why you believe that?
17 A. Because in the previous years, that line -- the
18 lines were not like that. Last time I voted and
19 I stand in line, I didn't even stand in line but
20 maybe like 15 -- 15, 20 minutes? If it was that.
21 The first -- my son, the first year he
22 was able to vote, we went together. And I don't
23 recall. The line wasn't long.
24 Q. And I believe you said, too, in previous years at
25 this same precinct they had more computers; is
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1 that right?
2 A. Yep. Uh-huh.
3 Q. And how many more did you say you thought they
4 had?
5 A. That -- that particular year, it was -- it was
6 like four or five computers.
7 Q. And how do you know whether the lines that you
8 experienced this year were caused by the fewer
9 number of computers or by the cuts to early
10 voting?
11 A. I think both of them played a part. I think the
12 computer and the cuts to early voting. I think
13 both of them. Both of them played a part in the
14 line.
15 The early -- the early voting, it
16 didn't -- the cutting -- cutting the days for
17 early voting didn't help. And having two
18 computers didn't help either. So I think both of
19 them played a part.
20 Q. But you don't know specifically how much one
21 influenced a line versus the other?
22 A. No. No. I don't.
23 Q. And I know -- so you don't know. But you don't
24 have an opinion either way about whether one was
25 more significant than the other?
30
1 MS. RIGGS: Objection to form.
2 But you can go ahead and answer the
3 question.
4 A. I -- I -- I don't really -- you know, it's no way
5 to really tell. But I feel like that if it had
6 been worked out properly, the -- maybe I had a
7 little more time voting -- early voting and more
8 computers, it probably wouldn't have been that
9 long, the line. That's just my opinion, now.
10 But...
11 Q. And did you ever discuss with the Southern
12 Coalition for Social Justice anything about the
13 effect of the cuts to early voting on the line
14 that you saw on election day?
15 A. George did ask me why did I -- what -- why did I
16 think the lines was so long. And I did tell him
17 that I think the voting -- the cuts to voting --
18 early voting and plus the computers played a part
19 in it.
20 Q. And did you discuss the cuts to early voting with
21 Mr. Eppsteiner?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Okay. And what did you discuss with him about
24 that?
25 A. Excuse me, repeat that.
31
1 Q. Yeah. What did you discuss with Mr. Eppsteiner
2 about the cuts to early voting, specifically?
3 A. Oh, he -- no. He asked me why did I think the
4 lines were long.
5 Q. Yeah.
6 A. That was before he found out about the computers.
7 And I told him that I think that early voting was
8 a part. And then when I found out about the
9 computers, I told him, I said, "Well, the
10 computers played a part in it, also." The two go
11 hand in hand, both of them, pretty much.
12 MR. McKNIGHT: All right. Ms. Pitt, I
13 don't believe that I have any further questions
14 for you.
15 MS. RIGGS: No further questions here
16 either.
17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the
18 deposition. The time is 4:23 p.m.
19 [SIGNATURE WAIVED]
20 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 4:23 P.M.]
21
22
23
24
25
32
1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA )
) C E R T I F I C A T E
2 COUNTY OF WAYNE )
3
4 I, JENNIFER C. CARROLL, Court Reporter and
5 Notary Public, the officer before whom the proceeding
6 was conducted, do hereby certify that the witness whose
7 testimony appears in the foregoing proceeding was duly
8 sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was
9 taken by me to the best of my ability and thereafter
10 transcribed under my supervision; and that the foregoing
11 pages, inclusive, constitute a true and accurate
12 transcription of the testimony of the witness.
13 I do further certify that I am neither
14 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the
15 parties to this action, and further, that I am not a
16 relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed
17 by the parties thereof, nor financially or otherwise
18 interested in the outcome of said action.
19 This the 16th day of June, 2015.
20
21
22
Jennifer C. Carroll, RPR, CRR
23 Notary Public #19923280118
24
25
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MARCIA PLEASANT June 5, 2015
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1
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
NORTH CAROLINA STATE )
CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, et al., )
)
Plaintiffs, )
v. ) 1:13CV658
)
PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his )
official capacity as the Governor )
of North Carolina, et al., )
)
Defendants. )
LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )
NORTH CAROLINA, et al., )
)
Plaintiffs, )
and )
)
LOUIS M. DUKE, et al., ) 1:13CV660
)
Plaintiffs-Intervenors,)
v. )
)
THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,)
)
Defendants. )
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )
)
Plaintiff, )
v. ) 1:13CV861
)
THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,)
)
Defendants. )
DEPOSITION OF MARCIA PLEASANT
__________________________________________________
5:03 P.M.
FRIDAY, JUNE 5, 2015
__________________________________________________
GLEN, MILLS, FISHER & MAHONEY, P.A.
404 HUNT STREET, SUITE 100
DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA
By: Tammy Johnson, CVR-CM-M
2
A P P E A R A N C E S
For the North Carolina State Conference of the NAACP:
ADVANCEMENT PROJECT
BY: DONITA JUDGE
CAITLIN SWAIN
1220 L Street NW, Suite 850
Washington, D.C. 20005
(202)728-9557
For the State of North Carolina:
NORTH CAROLINA DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
SPECIAL LITIGATION SECTION
KATHERINE A. MURPHY
SPECIAL DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL
114 W. Edenton Street
Raleigh, North Carolina 27603
(919)716-6900
3
INDEX OF EXAMINATION
Examinations Page
By Ms. Murphy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
By Ms. Swain . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22
By Ms. Murphy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30
4
INDEX OF EXHIBITS
Exhibit Description Page
(None Marked)
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MARCIA PLEASANT June 5, 2015
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5
STIPULATIONS
It is hereby stipulated and agreed between the
parties to this action, through their respective
counsel of record:
1. That the deposition of Marcia Pleasant may
be taken on June 5, 2015, at 5:03 p.m. in Durham, NC
before Tammy Johnson, CVR-CM-M.
2. That the deposition shall be taken and used
as permitted by the applicable Federal Rules of Civil
Procedure.
3. That any objections of any party hereto as
to notice of the taking of said deposition or as to
the time or place thereof, or as to the competency of
the person before whom the same shall be taken, are
deemed to have been met.
4. That objections to questions and motions to
strike answers need not be made during the taking of
this deposition, but may be made for the first time
during the progress of the trial of this case, or at
any pretrial hearing held before any judge of
competent jurisdiction for the purpose of ruling
thereon, or any other hearing at which said
deposition shall be used, except that objections to
the form of the question must be made at the time
such question is asked or objection as to the form of
6
the question is waived.
5. That the witness reserves the right to read
and sign the transcript prior to it being sealed.
6. That the sealed original of the transcript
shall be mailed First Class Postage Paid or
hand-delivered to the party taking the deposition for
preservation and delivery to the Court if and when
necessary.
7
1 MARCIA PLEASANT,
2 having been first sworn or affirmed by the
3 Certified Verbatim Reporter and Notary Public
4 to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing
5 but the truth, testified as follows:
6 EXAMINATION
7 BY MS. MURPHY:
8 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Pleasant. I'm Kathy Murphy.
9 I represent the defendants in this lawsuit.
10 MS. MURPHY: And I guess do you all
11 want to put your names on the record before we
12 start?
13 MS. SWAIN: Good afternoon. My name
14 is Caitlin Swain, and I am counsel for the North
15 Carolina NAACP, plaintiffs, in this matter.
16 MS. JUDGE: Good afternoon. I'm
17 Donita Judge representing the North Carolina
18 NAACP, plaintiffs, and I work with Advancement
19 Project.
20 MS. MURPHY: Okay.
21 Q. Ms. Pleasant, have you ever been deposed before?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. So you're aware that we've got a court
24 reporter who's taking down everything we say?
25 A. Uh-huh.
8
1 Q. So if you'll try not to speak over me and I'll
2 try not to speak over you --
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. -- that will help her.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. And then remember to answer out loud with yes
7 and no as opposed to nodding or saying uh-huh,
8 huh-uh.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. Okay. And you realize you're under oath as if
11 you were testifying in court?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. Okay. Is there any reason today why you can't
14 understand me and my questions and answer them
15 truthfully and completely?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. Are you a registered voter in North
18 Carolina?
19 A. I am.
20 Q. Where are you registered? What county?
21 A. Durham County.
22 Q. How long have you been registered in Durham
23 County?
24 A. Since I was 18, and I'm 50. I don't know how
25 many years that is.
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9
1 Q. That's fine. What is your date of birth?
2 A. 1963.
3 Q. And have you always lived in Durham County?
4 A. No, I have not.
5 Q. Okay. Where else have you lived?
6 A. Germany, Texas, Ohio, Virginia. Oh, I think
7 that's it.
8 Q. Where were you born?
9 A. In Durham.
10 Q. In Durham?
11 A. Uh-huh, Durham County.
12 Q. And have you lived in Durham since you were 18?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. So did you register to vote first time in
15 Durham County --
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. -- at age 18?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. And then did you leave Durham Co- -- did you
20 leave North Carolina?
21 A. I did.
22 Q. How old were you at that point?
23 A. Eighteen.
24 Q. Okay. Did you vote when you were 18?
25 A. I did.
10
1 Q. And then when did you come back to North
2 Carolina?
3 A. In 2001.
4 Q. And you came back to Durham?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. And did you register to vote again?
7 A. I updated my information.
8 Q. Okay. But you had never canceled your
9 registration?
10 A. No. Huh-uh.
11 Q. Okay. And did you vote consistently since 2001?
12 A. I did. I have.
13 Q. Okay. Do you intend to vote in every election?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you vote in the municipal as well as
16 presidential and mid-years?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Okay. Did you vote in the general election of
19 2014?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. And did you vote in the primary of 2014?
22 A. I did.
23 Q. Did you vote provisionally in 2014?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. Okay. Why is that?
11
1 A. Because I was told my name was not on the log,
2 the registration log, the voter log when I got
3 to my voting poll.
4 Q. Have you always been registered -- well, since
5 2001 have you been registered in the same
6 precinct in Durham County?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And have you moved within Durham County since
9 2001?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. Where do you currently live?
12 A. My address, my physical address?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. 3005 September Drive, Durham, and it's 27703.
15 Q. And how long have you lived at that address?
16 A. Since 2013, July 2013.
17 Q. Where did you live before that?
18 A. I lived at Patterson Place Apartments. It's off
19 of Old Chapel Hill Road, and that's 27707.
20 Q. Okay. And how -- when did you first start
21 living at the Paterson Place Apartments?
22 A. Three years prior. I'm not exactly sure.
23 Q. That's fine. Would you say roughly 2010 --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- is when you moved there?
12
1 A. Uh-huh. 2009.
2 Q. 2009?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. Okay. And then prior to that, where did you
5 live?
6 A. Prior to that, I lived on Tinsbury Place in Hope
7 Valley Farms, 27713.
8 Q. And how long would you say -- or when
9 approximately did you move to Tinsbury Place?
10 A. I stayed there five years, so I'm not really
11 sure of the math.
12 Q. 2004?
13 A. Yeah, uh-huh, something like that.
14 Q. That's fine. It doesn't have to be exact.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Okay. So do you know if the location you lived
17 at Tins- -- when you were in Tinsbury Place,
18 whether that was the same precinct as Patterson
19 Place Apartments?
20 A. It was not.
21 Q. Okay. Did you change -- did you do anything to
22 inform the Durham Board of Elections when you
23 moved?
24 A. I've always updated my information with the
25 Board of Elections, yes.
REDACTED
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13
1 Q. Okay. So after you -- I assume you voted at
2 some point while you were living at Tinsbury
3 Place?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And then when you first voted in the precinct in
6 which you had moved to when you lived at
7 Patterson Place Apartments, did you have any
8 trouble voting that first time?
9 A. No, no trouble. I was fairly sure of the
10 location. I was informed -- I think I got a
11 card in the mail of the voting location.
12 Q. Okay. So you knew where you needed to go to
13 vote?
14 A. I knew where I needed to go, uh-huh.
15 Q. And they had you listed in the poll book when
16 you got there?
17 A. No. Actually, they didn't, not the first -- not
18 the very first time I voted --
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. -- at that location. But the next time I voted,
21 they did have me listed.
22 Q. Okay. What happened the first time you voted if
23 you weren't in the poll book? What -- what --
24 were you able to vote?
25 A. I was able to vote, but I -- I didn't fill out a
14
1 provisional -- I don't recall filling out a
2 provisional ballot. I was given a ballot. I
3 was -- I had my card. I had everything I
4 needed, but I'm -- I've only done the
5 provisional in 2014.
6 Q. Okay. So when you went the first time when you
7 were living in Paterson Place Apartments, you
8 weren't on the poll book, but they were -- you
9 were still able to vote --
10 A. I was able to vote.
11 Q. -- at that precinct?
12 THE COURT REPORTER: If you could let
13 her finish.
14 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
15 THE COURT REPORTER: It's okay.
16 THE WITNESS: I thought she was done.
17 THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you.
18 Q. So the -- you were able to vote at the actual
19 precinct that you showed up in even though they
20 did -- oh, actually, let me just strike that
21 question and ask do you normally vote on
22 election day, or do you normally vote during
23 early voting?
24 A. I usually vote on election day, normally vote on
25 election day.
15
1 Q. Okay. And do you recall whether you voted on
2 election day in -- the first time you voted when
3 you lived in the Patterson Place Apartments?
4 A. It was election day, yes.
5 Q. Okay. And do you happen to know about how long
6 it had been since you had moved when you went to
7 vote at Patterson Place Apartments? If you
8 don't recall, that's fine.
9 A. I don't -- I don't recall.
10 Q. Okay. Okay. And then when you moved to
11 September Drive, did you update your information
12 with the Board of Elections?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. How long would you say it was before you updated
15 that information after you moved?
16 A. It was before I moved. That's part of my
17 checklist. I tried to update all my bills and
18 information prior to me moving.
19 Q. Okay. And so did you vote on election day in
20 2014?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. And I apologize if I've asked you this already.
23 Did you vote in the primary in 2014?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. Okay.
16
1 A. I did not.
2 Q. Did not vote in the primary?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. Okay. So just the general election in November?
5 A. Yes. Uh-huh.
6 Q. And when you got to your -- did you know where
7 your polling place was when you lived on
8 September Drive?
9 A. Not initially, no.
10 Q. Okay. What polling place did you go to?
11 A. I went to the -- there was a school and I don't
12 remember the name of the school, but in the
13 primary when I attempted to vote, I got there
14 late because I got lost so I knew for the -- for
15 that -- the 2014 main election I went back to
16 the school and -- I'm sorry. I -- could you
17 repeat the question?
18 Q. Well, I realized I didn't ask every question I
19 should have. You said you did not vote in the
20 2014 primary?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. Did you attempt to vote in the --
23 A. I attempted to vote, --
24 Q. -- 2014 primary?
25 A. -- yes. I think that's why I'm getting
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17
1 confused. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Okay. And but you say you got there too late?
3 A. I got there too late, uh-huh.
4 Q. That was on election day?
5 A. Yes. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Okay. And you went to a school to vote?
7 A. I went to a school to vote.
8 Q. Why did you choose that particular place as the
9 place you went to vote?
10 A. I knew that's where I was supposed to go.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. I was new to the neighborhood, so when I took
13 off on my -- to go vote, I just went in the
14 wrong direction so I got completely lost. By
15 the time I got out of traffic and to the school,
16 it was too late to vote, so I wasn't able to
17 vote.
18 Q. Okay. But you had some information that
19 indicated to you that the school was the proper
20 polling place?
21 A. I believe I did receive a card in the mail for
22 that location.
23 Q. Okay. And then in November 2014, you went back
24 to that location to vote in the general
25 election?
18
1 A. Well, I said I did, but it's -- it was on the
2 way to the general election where I actually
3 voted at the library. You pass the school, and
4 then the library is beyond the school, so. And,
5 actually, I did go just to make sure. I did
6 drive up in the parking lot. No one was there,
7 but I just wanted to make sure because I was
8 lost and I didn't want to get -- not be able to
9 vote, but then I went to the library, so.
10 Q. Okay. So the school is not actually the polling
11 place; --
12 A. It is not.
13 Q. -- is that what you're saying?
14 A. It was, but it is no longer. But I just wanted
15 to make sure, so I actually did drive in the
16 parking lot and I drove out and went to where I
17 was supposed to be.
18 Q. So are you saying the polling place had been
19 moved from the school to the library?
20 A. Yes, it had been. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Okay. And so how did you know that?
22 A. I knew that based on a sign that was posted
23 there because I never actually received a card
24 to say the library was the place. It was a sign
25 that was posted in the -- on the side -- near
19
1 the sidewalk of the old polling place.
2 Q. Okay. A sign directing you, don't vote here;
3 you vote at the library, --
4 A. At the library, uh-huh.
5 Q. -- to that effect?
6 A. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
7 Q. Okay. So you went to the library to vote, and
8 that's where they told you that you were not in
9 their poll book?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. So did you request a provisional ballot,
12 or did they offer it to you? Do you recall?
13 A. They offered the provisional ballot.
14 Q. Okay. And did they -- have you since made any
15 attempt to find out why you weren't in the poll
16 book?
17 A. I made an attempt that night to find out why I
18 wasn't in the poll book because I knew I had
19 sent my change of address to the Election Board.
20 Q. And did you have any success in finding out that
21 night?
22 A. That night, no.
23 Q. Did you ask the poll workers about it?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. And what was their response?
20
1 A. It was -- I don't remember a quote. I couldn't
2 quote what they said. It was just a -- kind of
3 a flip response to it. It was just some --
4 "mistakes happen" or something like that.
5 Q. Okay. And did you later attempt to contact the
6 Durham County Board of Elections to find out why
7 you weren't listed in the poll book?
8 A. When I got my provisional ballot, I used that
9 number to ask -- to call and keep up with that
10 -- my provisional ballot and I did ask, I mean.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. When I did call, my name was on the books, but
13 he couldn't tell me why I wasn't there.
14 Q. Okay. So were you able to find out whether your
15 provisional ballot counted?
16 A. I was.
17 Q. And did it count?
18 A. He -- yes. He said it did.
19 Q. Okay. And so I guess you've not had an
20 opportunity to vote since then?
21 A. No.
22 Q. But have you been told by the Durham County
23 Board of Elections that you are, in fact,
24 registered and listed in the -- the --
25 A. Well, I received my card in the mail in December
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21
1 of 2014. My -- that said you are at -- now at
2 this location, which was the library --
3 Q. Oh, so --
4 A. -- and the precinct.
5 Q. -- prior to that -- December 2014, you hadn't
6 received the card yet?
7 A. No, I had not.
8 Q. I see. But now you have gotten it?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. And I have it with me. It's post-dated December
12 2014.
13 Q. Okay. Have you had any other problems occur
14 voting over the past however many years?
15 A. No. I --
16 MS. JUDGE: Objection to form.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay.
18 Q. I'm sorry. Go ahead and repeat your answer.
19 A. No.
20 Q. No, okay. I have no further questions.
21 MS. JUDGE: Can we go off?
22 MS. SWAIN: Yeah, we're just going to
23 take one moment.
24 MS. MURPHY: We'll go off the record.
25 (Brief recess: 5:17 p.m. to 5:20 p.m.)
22
1 MS. SWAIN: Okay. I do have some
2 questions.
3 THE WITNESS: Sure.
4 EXAMINATION
5 BY MS. SWAIN:
6 Q. Ms. Pleasant, what was your experience when you
7 arrived at the polling place to vote in November
8 of 2014?
9 A. Well, it was -- I was met with a horrible
10 traffic jam. I -- and then after I found a
11 parking spot, which was difficult, I ended up
12 standing in a very long, slow-moving line, and
13 it was just a very different experience. I've
14 never experienced anything like that before.
15 Q. And what time did you get to the polling place
16 to vote, to your memory?
17 A. I believe it was 5:30. It was -- it was after
18 work.
19 Q. And how would you describe the line that you
20 just mentioned?
21 A. Long, slow-moving. Everybody was kind of quiet
22 and just orderly, but it was a very long and
23 slow-moving line.
24 Q. How many people would you estimate were in the
25 line when you arrived, if you --
23
1 A. I would guess about 200 people.
2 Q. And were there -- what time did you -- to your
3 memory, what time did you reach the polling
4 place?
5 A. I remember it was just before closing, just
6 before the polls closed. I think 7:15 was when
7 I actually got to the steps of the polling
8 place.
9 Q. And how -- why do you remember that?
10 A. Because someone in the building, I'm assuming a
11 poll worker, came out and started issuing
12 tickets for the people that were in line because
13 they knew that the amount of people there was
14 going to exceed the time that the polls closed.
15 Q. At that time, were there people behind you in
16 line?
17 A. There were a lot of people behind me, yes,
18 uh-huh.
19 Q. How many people would you estimate at that time
20 were behind you, if you can?
21 A. No less than a hundred.
22 Q. While you were in line, did you see anyone leave
23 the line?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. And when you reached the polls, can you describe
24
1 the conversation that you had with the -- with
2 the person who was looking at the poll book?
3 A. I stood in my line per my alphabet and stated my
4 name and she looked in the book, and my name
5 wasn't there. And I asked her again to look
6 again and she told me my name wasn't there, but
7 I happened to notice my son's name was there and
8 we live in the same household. And I asked her
9 -- I didn't understand that because he had not
10 voted and I've been a registered voter since I
11 was 18, so.
12 Q. And you testified earlier that you were offered
13 a provisional ballot?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did the poll worker who offered you the
16 provisional ballot explain what a provisional
17 ballot was?
18 A. She did not, the poll worker at the table at the
19 books, but the next person that I was directed
20 to did explain a provisional ballot, yes.
21 Q. And what did that worker tell you what a
22 provisional ballot is?
23 A. She told me it was just like a regular ballot,
24 that I would just have to fill out my
25 information manually and that I would be allowed
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25
1 to vote -- allowed to vote. And she gave me my
2 ballot number with the instructions to follow up
3 with -- with the Board of Elections.
4 Q. Did you understand at the time that there was a
5 poss- -- strike that.
6 Did the -- did anyone in the precinct tell
7 you that there was a possibility that your
8 provisional ballot would not count?
9 A. No, I don't think I was ever told that.
10 Q. When you left the polling place after casting
11 the provisional ballot, were there still people
12 in line?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And was there only one line to your precinct?
15 A. There was one line for my precinct, yes.
16 Q. Was there any other precincts in that same area?
17 A. There was another precinct in an adjoining room
18 in the building, yes.
19 Q. Can you describe how that was set up?
20 A. The line that I was in, we were going into the
21 library, and the other precinct, like a door on
22 the side of the library, you could see clearly
23 inside that room with voting machines and
24 workers, and there were only, at most, five
25 people in the room at a time to vote. There was
26
1 no rush or line in that -- in that space.
2 Q. So how close together were these two precincts?
3 I just want to make sure that I understand.
4 A. Well, it was a -- an attached room to the
5 building, so they were very close. It was on
6 the side of the building as opposed to the front
7 of the building where I -- where I was in line.
8 Q. From the line that you were standing in, could
9 you see the other line?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. And did anyone ask questions about why there
12 were these two lines?
13 A. Several people did ask why we couldn't go over
14 there, and several people walked over there to
15 vote, but they were sent back when they realized
16 that -- that it was a different precinct.
17 Q. And could you describe, if you know, the racial
18 characteristics of the people who were in each
19 of these lines?
20 A. The shorter line, the other precinct, it was --
21 I only observed one African-American family, and
22 I only -- I know that because I was watching the
23 children play. And the racial makeup of the
24 other voters, they were all Caucasian. And then
25 the line that I was in, it was a mix, mainly
27
1 Caucasian, black. There were a few Hispanic.
2 But there was a mix of voters in the line that I
3 was standing in.
4 Q. Have you ever experienced lines like this in
5 previous elections where you've --
6 A. I never have, no, huh-uh.
7 Q. What do you believe caused the long line?
8 A. The cramped space that the -- that my polling
9 area -- my -- my poll was in. And it seemed
10 very unorganized inside the room. It was a very
11 small space, inadequate, in my opinion, to
12 accommodate the number of people that came to
13 vote.
14 Q. And if it had -- strike that.
15 How would you describe your November 2014
16 voting experience?
17 A. I will use the word disenfranchised. It's not a
18 word that I use -- I have in my vocabulary on a
19 regular basis, but I felt some -- cheated. I
20 felt -- I just felt like -- I just felt like I
21 wasted all that time. I -- really I didn't feel
22 like my vote was going to count when I walked
23 away, so I just felt -- I was just totally
24 shocked at the whole process. I was in
25 disbelief at the unorganization and I -- I just
28
1 couldn't -- I just couldn't believe the whole
2 thing happened the way it happened.
3 Q. And what time was it when you actually left the
4 polling place, if you remember?
5 A. It was after eight o'clock. I don't remember
6 the exact time. I think it was between 8:30 and
7 8:45.
8 Q. And why -- why do you remember that time, if you
9 have a reason?
10 A. I don't remember why I remembered it. I -- I
11 know I had been on the phone with a friend of
12 mine saying, "Can you believe I'm still in this
13 line," and then he text -- he text -- we were
14 texting back and forth, "I'm still in the line."
15 He couldn't believe I was still in line. But I
16 -- I'm -- you know, I don't know why I remember
17 that time exactly, but I just -- I do remember
18 it was about -- it was -- it was about -- about
19 8:30.
20 Q. Did you ever consider leaving the line?
21 A. No, I never did.
22 Q. And why not?
23 A. Because I wanted to vote. I was there to vote.
24 Q. Were you worried that anyone else was
25 considering leaving the line?
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MARCIA PLEASANT June 5, 2015
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29
1 A. Yes, I was very concerned with the people in
2 line who had small children. And I could hear
3 different conversations that they needed to pick
4 their children up or their children were hungry
5 or had to go to the bathroom. Some people --
6 other children used the bathroom in the woods.
7 I mean, it was -- I was just concerned that, you
8 know, these people wouldn't be able to vote
9 because they had been standing there for so
10 long.
11 Q. And do you believe that your provisional ballot
12 did count in this election?
13 A. They said it did when I called and they said
14 yes, but I -- I just -- no, I just didn't trust
15 the whole process. I didn't feel like it
16 counted.
17 Q. Did this experience make you lose trust in the
18 process?
19 A. To a degree, but I'm -- I'm sure I'll vote. It
20 didn't make me not want to vote, but, yes, to
21 answer your question.
22 Q. I've got no further questions. Thank you,
23 Ms. Pleasant.
24 A. Thank you.
25 MS. MURPHY: I have some few follow-up
30
1 questions.
2 THE WITNESS: Okay.
3 EXAMINATION
4 BY MS. MURPHY:
5 Q. How many -- at the polling place where you voted
6 in 2014, was it voting machines or, you know,
7 paper ballots?
8 A. I was just paper ballot.
9 Q. That you fill in --
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. -- with a pencil?
12 A. Uh-huh. Yes.
13 Q. How many people -- polling officials were there
14 to do checking in?
15 A. Two or three at the table, and then at -- to
16 check in, two or three.
17 Q. And do you know what the -- or could you tell
18 what the reason was for the long line?
19 A. The space was just a little larger than this
20 room. It was cramped. There weren't a lot of
21 polling machines or stands because they weren't
22 machines.
23 Q. Could you estimate how many stands there were?
24 A. Maybe 15, 15 spaces.
25 Q. Okay.
31
1 A. I guess -- I would guess. But then people were
2 using tables or, you know, if it was an overflow
3 to use the -- the stand, the private stand, so.
4 Q. And you had not voted at that polling location
5 in the past?
6 A. No.
7 Q. So you don't know how this compares to previous
8 years in terms of length of the wait of the long
9 -- of the length of the lines?
10 A. No. It's my understanding that that was the
11 first time at that location.
12 Q. Okay. And do you know why, though -- have you
13 been told by anybody from, say, the Board of
14 Elections what accounted for the long lines?
15 A. No. Huh-uh.
16 Q. Okay. I have nothing further.
17 [SIGNATURE RESERVED]
18 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 5:36 P.M.]
19
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32
A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T O F D E P O N E N T
I, MARCIA PLEASANT, declare under the
penalties of perjury under the State of North
Carolina that I have read the foregoing 31 pages,
which contain a correct transcription of answers made
by me to the questions therein recorded, with the
exception(s) and/or addition(s) reflected on the
correction sheet attached hereto, if any.
Signed this the day of , 2015.
MARCIA PLEASANT
State of:
County of:
Subscribed and sworn to before me this
day of , 2015.
Notary Public
My commission expires:
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-50 Filed 07/08/15 Page 8 of 9
MARCIA PLEASANT June 5, 2015
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E R R A T A S H E E T
Case Name: North Carolina State Conference of the
NAACP, et al., v. Patrick Lloyd McCrory,
et al., and related cases
Witness Name: Marcia Pleasant
Deposition Date: June 5, 2015
Page/Line Reads Should Read
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Signature Date
34
STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA) ) C E R T I F I C A T ECOUNTY OF JOHNSTON )
I, TAMMY JOHNSON, Court Reporter and
Notary Public, the officer before whom the
foregoing proceeding was conducted, do hereby
certify that the witness(es) whose testimony
appears in the foregoing proceeding were duly sworn
by me; that the testimony of said witness(es) were
taken by me to the best of my ability and
thereafter transcribed under my supervision; and
that the foregoing pages, inclusive, constitute a
true and accurate transcription of the testimony of
the witness(es).
I do further certify that I am neither
counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the
parties to this action, and further, that I am not
a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel
employed by the parties thereof, nor financially or
otherwise interested in the outcome of said action.
This the 17th day of June 2015.
Tammy Johnson, CVR-CM-M Notary Public #20011560080
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-50 Filed 07/08/15 Page 9 of 9
CHERIE POUCHER July 2, 2014
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1 (Pages 1 to 4)
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
NORTH CAROLINA STATE )
CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, )
et al., )
)
Plaintiffs, )
)
vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-658
)
PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his )
official capacity as the )
Governor of North Carolina, )
et al., )
)
Defendants. )
________________________________
)
LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )
NORTH CAROLINA, et al., )
)
Plaintiffs, )
)
vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-660
)
THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )
et al., )
)
Defendants. )
________________________________
)
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )
)
Plaintiff, )
)
vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-861
)
THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )
et al., )
)
Defendants. )
________________________________
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
CHERIE POUCHER
2
1
2 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
3 CHERIE POUCHER
4 _________________________________________________________
5 12:03 P.M.
6 WEDNESDAY, JULY 2, 2014
_________________________________________________________
7
8 OGLETREE DEAKINS NASH SMOAK & STEWART
4208 SIX FORKS ROAD
9 SUITE 1100
RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA
10
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13 By: Denise Myers Byrd, CSR 8340, RPR, CLR 102409-02
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S2
3 Counsel for NAACP Plaintiffs:4 KIRKLAND & ELLIS
BY: JODI WU, ESQ.5 655 Fifteenth Street, N.W.
Washington, DC 200056 (202) 879-5054
ADVANCEMENT PROJECT8 BY: DENISE LIEBERMAN, ESQ.
1220 L Street, N.W.9 Suite 850
Washington, DC 2000510 (202) 728-9557
12 Counsel for League of Women Voters Plaintiffs:13 SOUTHERN COALITION FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE
BY: ANITA EARLS, ESQ.14 1415 West Highway 54
Suite 10115 Durham, NC 27707
(919) 323-338016 [email protected]
Counsel for the United States of America Plaintiffs:18
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE19 BY: ELIZABETH RYAN, ESQ.
950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.20 Washington, DC 20530
(800) 253-393121 [email protected]
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2 Counsel for Plaintiff-IntervenorsLeague of Women Voters:
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PERKINS COIE4 BY: JOHN M. DEVANEY, ESQ.
700 Thirteenth Street, N.W.5 Suite 600
Washington, DC 20005-39606 (202) 628-6200
8 Counsel for Defendants State of North Carolina andMembers of the State Board of Elections:
9
OGLETREE DEAKINS NASH SMOAK & STEWART10 BY: THOMAS A. FARR, ESQ.
4208 Six Forks Road11 Suite 1100
Raleigh, NC 2760912 (919) 787-9700
NORTH CAROLINA ATTORNEY GENERAL14 BY: ALEC McC. PETERS, ESQ.
114 W. Edenton Street15 Raleigh, NC 27603-1013
(919) 716-690016 [email protected]
For the deponent:18
WAKE COUNTY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE19 BY: SCOTT W. WARREN, ESQ.
PO Box 55020 Raleigh, NC 27602
(919) 856-550021 [email protected]
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2 Reported By:3 DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS
AND LEGAL VIDEOGRAPHERS4 BY: DENISE MYERS BYRD, CSR 8340, RPR
TRAE HOWERTON, Videographer5 4208 Six Forks Road
Suite 10006 Raleigh, NC 27609
(919) 649-99987 [email protected]
--o0o--9
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INDEX OF EXAMINATION12 Page13
14 By Ms. Wu............................... 815 By Mr. Devaney.......................... 6916 By Mr. Farr............................. 8017
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1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS2 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION Page3 206 Declaration of Cherie Poucher 144 207 Written Comments, Cherie Poucher,
Director of Elections, Wake County,5 North Carolina, Implementations and
Use of Provisional Voting 536
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1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at
2 12:03 p.m. Today's date is July 2, 2014.
3 This is the videotaped deposition of
4 Ms. Cherie Poucher.
5 Will counsel please now introduce
6 themselves and then our court reporter will
7 swear in the witness.
8 MS. WU: Jodi Wu from Kirkland & Ellis
9 on behalf of the NAACP plaintiffs.
10 MS. LIEBERMAN: Denise Lieberman with
11 Advancement Project on behalf of the NAACP
12 plaintiffs.
13 MS. EARLS: Anita Earls on behalf of
14 the League of Women Voter plaintiffs.
15 MR. PETERS: Alec Peters with the
16 North Carolina Attorney General's Office on
17 behalf of defendants.
18 MR. FARR: Tom Farr from Ogletree
19 Deakins here in Raleigh, co-counsel with the
20 Attorney General.
21 MR. WARREN: Scott Warren, Wake County
22 attorney representing.
23 ///
24 ///
25 ///
8
1 CHERIE POUCHER,
2 having been first duly sworn or affirmed by the
3 Certified Shorthand Reporter to tell the truth,
4 the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
5 testified as follows:
6 EXAMINATION
7 BY MS. WU:
8 Q. Good morning, Ms. Poucher.
9 A. Hi.
10 Q. Thank you for appearing today. I know you're
11 very busy and I won't take very much of your
12 time.
13 I represent the NAACP plaintiffs in a
14 lawsuit challenging HB 589. And for the
15 record, you gave a declaration in this case?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. Have you been deposed in the past in any other
18 litigation?
19 A. Yes, in -- several years ago and then I believe
20 either -- I think it was 2000.
21 Q. What were those two cases about?
22 A. Redistricting.
23 Q. Both of them?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And so since you've been through the process
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9
1 before, I am just going to run through a couple
2 ground rules.
3 Because we have a court reporter here
4 who's taking down everything we say, if you
5 wait until I finish my question to answer so
6 we're not talking over each other, and then if
7 you give a reply, make sure that it's oral so
8 that the court reporter can take it down.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. And you know this subject much better than I do
11 so if any of my questions are confusing, feel
12 free to ask for any clarification, but if you
13 respond, I'm going to assume that you
14 understood my question.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Great. How did you prepare for this deposition
17 today?
18 A. I met with Tom Farr to go over what I said in
19 the affidavit and in regards to some of the
20 statutes.
21 Q. And when did you meet with Mr. Farr?
22 A. Yesterday.
23 Q. And how long was that meeting?
24 A. 30 minutes to 45 minutes, I believe.
25 Q. Was anyone else at that meeting?
10
1 A. No.
2 Q. Can you give me a sense of your educational
3 background after high school?
4 A. I went to court reporting school, and then I
5 did not work at all when my children were
6 growing up. I did court reporting when we
7 lived in Florida, and then we moved to
8 North Carolina in 1985. So I did not have any
9 further actual education except for I have
10 attended and received a national certification
11 for election administrators through the
12 Election Center.
13 Q. Great. And after you moved to North Carolina
14 in 1985, what was your first job in this city?
15 A. I was an administrative assistant to the Courts
16 Commission for the State of North Carolina.
17 Q. How long were you at that job?
18 A. That's so long ago, I cannot really remember.
19 Q. To the best of your recollection.
20 A. I prefer not to guess.
21 Q. Okay. After that job, where did you go next?
22 A. I worked in the Department of Administration
23 for a few months and then I worked in the
24 Governor's Office for Boards and Commissions
25 until I got my present position in July of
11
1 1991.
2 Q. Great. And how long were you at the Governor's
3 Office?
4 A. I can't remember exactly when I started there,
5 so I prefer not to give anything definite.
6 Q. That's fine.
7 And can you repeat, when did you start
8 at the County Board of Elections?
9 A. July 1, 1991.
10 Q. And to clarify, that was at the Wake County --
11 A. Wake County Board of Elections, correct.
12 Q. What was your position when you first started
13 there?
14 A. At that time, by statute, we were called
15 supervisors.
16 Q. And how long were you in that position?
17 A. I still am.
18 Q. So does that mean the title changed from
19 supervisor --
20 A. The legislature changed the title from
21 supervisor to director of elections, but I do
22 not know the year.
23 Q. So from 1991 to the present you've been in the
24 same position even though the title of your job
25 changed?
12
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Okay. And what are your duties as the director
3 of --
4 A. The main responsibility is to follow all of the
5 statutes for federal, state, county
6 governments, register the voters, comply with
7 all of the list maintenance procedures, conduct
8 elections, bond referendums, and that would
9 include municipalities, everything related to
10 an election.
11 Q. And how many employees does Wake County Board
12 of Elections have?
13 A. That depends on the time of year. Right now we
14 have 19. The county recently enacted their
15 budget, gave us five additional positions. At
16 election time, we can hire up to a hundred plus
17 temporary staff.
18 So at this time, because I do have an
19 election in two weeks, I do have a multitude of
20 part-time staff working on the election
21 process, and then, of course, over 2,000
22 precinct officials on election day depending on
23 the type of election.
24 Q. And the 2,000 precinct officials, are they
25 temps or something different?
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13
1 A. They're considered contract workers. They're
2 appointed by the Board pursuant to statute.
3 Q. Are they paid through the Wake County Board of
4 Elections?
5 A. They are paid through the Board of Elections --
6 well, paid through Wake County government.
7 Q. And the 100 temps, are those also paid through
8 the Wake County government?
9 A. No. We have a contract with a vendor that
10 handles all of their time sheets and pay.
11 Q. Do you pay the vendor, then?
12 A. Correct, through the finance. We go out for
13 bid, et cetera. We follow all of the county
14 finance procedures.
15 Q. Okay. And then as part of your duties as the
16 director of the Wake County Board of Elections,
17 do you have any role in forming the budget?
18 A. My staff does that. I review it at the end and
19 then it's presented to my Board. My Board is
20 the -- is basically the one that determines --
21 I determine the administrative needs and
22 election. They determine anything relating to
23 early voting. Then that goes to my budget
24 analyst. We work with that. Then we put
25 together a presentation for the budget office
14
1 and county manager. Then it goes before the
2 commissioners.
3 Q. You said someone else on your staff determines
4 the budget for early voting. Who would that
5 be?
6 A. The Board.
7 Q. The Board. And then what would be your
8 greatest -- what makes up your greatest
9 expenditure as part of the budget?
10 A. People, paper and places.
11 Q. And what of those three -- so what percentage
12 is people, what percentage is paper and what
13 percentage is places?
14 A. I can't give you percentages.
15 Q. But those are the three main?
16 A. Those are the three main.
17 Q. You gave a declaration in this case, and I'm
18 going to mark this as Exhibit 206.
19 (WHEREUPON, Plaintiff's Exhibit 206 was
20 marked for identification.)
21 BY MS. WU:
22 Q. If you want to take a minute to review it to
23 make sure it's your declaration. Just let me
24 know when you're ready.
25 A. Okay.
15
1 Q. Is that your signature at the bottom on page 5
2 of your declaration?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. And is this a true and accurate copy of your
5 declaration?
6 A. To the best of my ability.
7 Q. Great. How did you prepare this declaration?
8 A. I had spoken with the Attorney General's
9 Office -- I cannot remember the woman's name.
10 I had not known her before -- and she had asked
11 that I complete a declaration. I talked with
12 Scott Warren, the county attorney. He said to
13 go ahead.
14 I was told the main thrust of what my
15 declaration should be. I typed this, sent it
16 back to my county attorney, and then I signed
17 it and sent it to the Attorney General's
18 Office.
19 Q. Did you ever meet with anyone from the Attorney
20 General's Office --
21 A. No.
22 Q. -- about the declaration?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Turning to paragraph 4 of your declaration,
25 which is on page 2, you mention that you -- the
16
1 Wake County Board of Elections does -- or used
2 to do voter registration drives each fall in
3 high schools in Wake County.
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. About how many high schools would you cover?
6 A. We cover every single high school in Wake
7 County.
8 Dr. Gilbert was chair of the Board of
9 Elections. He used to be on the Board of
10 Education. We used to do the drives, but when
11 he became board chair, we began making it a
12 contest.
13 In the summer, we met with the head
14 person for -- at the main office in regards to
15 the social studies and gave them information on
16 how to register. You know, there are certain
17 things on a form that you must have. And then
18 that person met with all of the main social
19 studies schools, each of the high schools.
20 They were given a sufficient number of
21 forms. The high school itself, each high
22 school had a list of what we would refer to as
23 the eligible students. By that, I mean those
24 that are citizens and those that would be 18 by
25 the next election.
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17
1 So once schools started back in the
2 fall, they were all set to go. We set a
3 deadline which was prior to the regular voter
4 registration deadline which would make them
5 eligible to vote, for instance, in off-year,
6 make them eligible to vote for the municipal
7 elections in October and November.
8 Each school, also to my knowledge, had
9 student representatives and it was a very
10 successful program.
11 Q. What do you mean by very successful?
12 A. You could have -- I think Broughten won it one
13 year with 99 percent of the eligible
14 registering.
15 Q. Do you know offhand annually how many of these
16 16- and 17-year-olds you registered through
17 these voter registration drives?
18 A. I could not give a number, no.
19 Q. Going back to paragraph 4, you state that --
20 it's about I think the third sentence down:
21 "The pre-registration of 16- and
22 17-year-olds created confusion among 16- and
23 17-year-olds who may have thought that -- who
24 may have then thought he or she was registered
25 and could vote."
18
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. What's the basis for your statement?
3 A. We would get calls in our office wanting to
4 know why they had not gotten a voter
5 registration card.
6 Q. Did you speak to any of these people yourself?
7 A. No, I didn't. I couldn't remember. I might
8 have talked to some. I've got staff that
9 answers the phone, you know, before it gets to
10 me. And then you'd have to explain to them
11 that "I'm sorry, but we will notify when you're
12 going to be eligible and you'll get a voter
13 card at that time."
14 Q. Beyond that conversation, was there -- once you
15 explained or once one of your volunteers
16 explained on the phone, was there any confusion
17 after that?
18 A. That I wouldn't know. I don't know if any of
19 them came to vote at an election and had to be
20 told, no, they weren't in the books.
21 Q. And also in paragraph 4 you mention that
22 pre-registration of 16- and 17-year-olds
23 increases -- increases the administrative costs
24 of county boards of elections.
25 A. Any time an application would come in, you had
19
1 to complete the data entry. That's a resource.2 Then it goes into what is called an IQ. The3 state holds that.4 So we're doing the processing; then it5 goes to the state. The state is responsible6 for getting that back to us when the person is7 going to be eligible. Then we have to move8 that over into our system, send them a voter9 card, and then if they have moved or if they10 have gone away to college and registered at11 college, then we're processing them again,12 sending them a card. So that, again, is a13 county resource.14 Q. So for a normal voter who doesn't go through15 the pre-registration process, what process does16 the county board do to get them registered?17 A. You process it and you send them a voter card.18 You don't have to -- it doesn't go into what19 you would refer the IQ.20 Q. So the only additional step is the IQ step?21 A. And the number who may have moved. We're a22 very transient county.23 Q. But for normal voters, you also have to send24 the verification mailings once a normal voter25 registers through the normal registration?
20
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And sometimes those normal -- those people who
3 register through the normal process, also you
4 have to send them one or two verification
5 mailings?
6 A. We follow the list maintenance procedures, yes.
7 Q. And sometimes with those normal people who
8 register through the normal registration
9 process, you get the second verification back
10 as non-deliverable; is that correct?
11 A. Sometimes, yes. I couldn't give you a number.
12 Q. And then sometimes you would have to reregister
13 them if they show up? If they register -- if
14 you get the second verification back, they get
15 kicked out of the system; is that correct?
16 A. The statewide voter registration system which
17 is run by the State, when that second
18 verification is returned, we barcode it in and
19 then at that time the state's infrastructure
20 takes it to the next status.
21 Q. What's that status?
22 A. My understanding is that status would be
23 denied, but it depends on what the status is at
24 the time.
25 Q. And then going back, you mentioned the IQ
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1 system. What is that?
2 A. If a voter does not complete an application,
3 they don't have their birth date, they don't
4 have a signature, that cannot be processed
5 fully. Therefore it has to go into an IQ
6 system which the state also -- it goes over
7 there and then on a daily basis letters are
8 generated again from the state system to send
9 that voter with a copy of the registration
10 explaining to them what is needed before
11 they're completely registered.
12 Q. And so for pre-registration, until -- before
13 the voter's actually eligible, they go into
14 that IQ system?
15 A. That I do not know. That you'd have to find
16 out exactly through the state system.
17 Q. Okay. Have you ever conducted a study at the
18 Wake County Board of Elections' level comparing
19 the number of undeliverable verification
20 mailings that Wake County receives for
21 pre-registration voters to voters who register
22 through the normal process?
23 A. No because an envelope returned is an envelope
24 returned.
25 Q. Moving on to paragraph 6 of your declaration --
22
1 if you want to flip there -- it starts at the
2 bottom of page 3 but then moves on to page 4.
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. You state that due to HB 589, Wake County had
5 to incur the expense of printing new forms and
6 you list a couple which would be absentee
7 ballot request forms, voter forms and
8 provisional ballot instructions. Do you see
9 that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were these additional costs for printing
12 anticipated as part of the July 2013 budget
13 that the Wake County Board considered and
14 passed?
15 A. No. All of these were unbudgeted.
16 Q. So prior to each new election, does the Wake
17 County Board of Elections have to print new
18 forms in the normal course?
19 A. Not to this extent. What I'm saying is because
20 of the number and amount of printing we do --
21 for instance, with 650 plus thousand voters, we
22 print more than probably a normal county would
23 because we get a cheaper price that way.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. And so we had sufficient stock probably going
23
1 through 2014. The county does not budget for2 anything anticipated; therefore, even though3 the legislature may be discussing possible4 changes, we definitively do not know what it's5 going to be.6 So once we started getting the7 information from the State Board on various8 things that had to be new forms, the wording of9 them, et cetera, we then had to go out and do10 the Request for Bid, bid them, go through11 the -- as I said before, the county purchasing12 and then all of the old forms, of course, would13 be discarded because they're old, and with the14 volume we have, we do not have storage15 sufficient.16 Q. Okay. So just to clarify, you just -- before17 the May 2014 primary, you already had a stock18 of these types of absentee ballot request forms19 from previous elections that you were planning20 on using pre-HB 589?21 A. More the envelopes and things of that nature22 because at that time a voter was allowed to23 write a letter so the forms that you have24 online now you could not have online.25 Q. Got it. And then you mentioned where the new
24
1 funding came from for printing the new forms
2 that were required under HB 589. Can you walk
3 me through that process again?
4 A. For the May primary?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. We went and got the forms redone and cut back
7 on temporary staff in order to meet our budget.
8 Q. So you didn't have to go and request extra
9 funding from the --
10 A. We did not ask for extra funding.
11 Q. Did you get any extra funding from any other
12 source?
13 A. No. The only -- we printed the forms. Now
14 that we've got the new budget in place, we've
15 got the forms that we're doing for 2014
16 general.
17 Q. For general?
18 A. Yes. Those are being done now.
19 Q. You also mention that new training materials
20 had to be drafted --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- by the County Board of Elections?
23 A. We -- as Wake County, we prepare a new precinct
24 official manual for every single election
25 because every single election does have
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1 something different. It's about an2 80 -- 80-plus page document. I think I put one3 of those in or several of them in my -- the4 documents that I had sent previously.5 A primary deals with political parties,6 so you go through the step-by-step with that.7 Then it had to be recreated because of the8 changes in the law.9 We also do training videos that we put
10 online, so any time our officials have a11 question on one aspect of election day, they12 can go through to refer to it. It's the same13 for the training also for early voting. That's14 different because the process is different for15 early voting than election day. So all of that16 had to be printed also.17 Q. So for each election you come up with new18 training materials specific to that election?19 A. That's correct.20 Q. So that's regardless of whether there's a21 change in law, you always come up with22 different training materials?23 A. Correct because we always try to improve.24 Q. Going back to the printing of forms, for the --25 in order to print for the general election in
26
1 November 2014, what's the timeframe that you
2 need to go through the process of doing your --
3 A. We've already ordered the forms. We do have an
4 election July 15th, we have a second primary.
5 As soon as that is done, we will begin
6 unpacking the big tubs that each precinct gets
7 and begin packing for November. It takes a lot
8 of time to put in all of the non-specific items
9 that every precinct gets.
10 Q. So how long, like a month, two months, a couple
11 weeks?
12 A. We will begin right after we have completed the
13 July primary. The forms are in the process of
14 being done, the manual is in the process of
15 being done and the video is completed. We have
16 training starting in August.
17 Q. So again, my question was --
18 A. So you're talking less than a month.
19 Q. Less than a month, okay.
20 A. But the forms, et cetera, they've gone through
21 the process we've had to go through.
22 Q. Okay. Going back to training, for each
23 election, I assume you have a training for your
24 employees.
25 A. That's by statute.
27
1 Q. Okay.2 A. Precinct officials.3 Q. Precinct officials. What kind of training is4 that?5 A. We have four or five different trainings6 depending on are you a new official, have you7 been -- have you gone -- worked before.8 We have what's referred to as a9 hands-on training. New officials get referred10 to a boot camp, which is lengthier, it could be11 all day. Then we have the statutory, which is12 the overview what needs to be done for that13 specific election.14 Then we have what is referred to as15 help training which is someone that works the16 provisional ballot table.17 Q. So I heard the all-day boot camp training, the18 statutory training and then the help desk19 training. Did I cover them all?20 A. You will have intermittent training depending21 on also the length of time you've worked.22 Q. And then for every election you have these23 trainings before the election for precinct24 officials?25 A. That's statutory. Yes.
28
1 Q. Yes. And how long -- you have the all-day boot2 camp for new precinct officials.3 For the other, the statutory training4 and the help desk training, how long are those5 trainings generally?6 A. I will not give an exact because I do not do7 those trainings.8 Q. Is it --9 A. The statutory training is generally three10 hours, but it goes longer. The help table11 is -- is longer because you're also working on12 the laptop and we do have laptop training.13 Q. Longer than three hours?14 A. Yes.15 Q. And that's for every election?16 A. Correct. The only deviation is a primary,17 second primary or an election and runoff. You18 do not have to have the additional training19 between those two.20 Q. And do you pay precinct officials to go to21 these trainings?22 A. They are paid, correct.23 Q. For the May 2014 primary, did you have to do24 any additional training due to HB 589?25 A. We do longer training because of the different
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1 changes and some of the requirements in regards
2 to voter information and education.
3 Q. What was that special training?
4 A. Having to inform anyone that came to vote about
5 the ID requirements, the additional sheet on if
6 someone, by chance, said they did not have ID,
7 we had an affidavit for them to sign and then
8 another sheet of paper for them listing their
9 options. We had what we refer to as wallpaper
10 where it's on the wall explaining to them the
11 changes.
12 So because of the questions, we did
13 have an extended training, but you have to
14 remember, a lot of that was done in October and
15 November 2013 also in regards to at least
16 letting some people know.
17 Q. Okay. And then for the photo ID portion of the
18 training, was that something that the Wake
19 County Board of Elections developed that
20 training on its own or did you get instruction
21 from the State Board of Elections?
22 A. We got instruction from the State Board. We
23 had a form from the State Board and then what
24 we did is we took the wording that was given
25 and during early voting, we had a sign made
30
1 that was placed in front of every single laptop
2 where a voter would come in and check in. That
3 way all the staff had to do is look down and
4 read verbatim exactly what they were supposed
5 to say about ID being needed.
6 On election day, that same verbiage was
7 placed by every check-in station and we could
8 have three to four check-in stations at a
9 precinct depending on the number of voters in
10 that precinct.
11 Q. And what were -- I'm not asking for the exact
12 verbiage, but what were the precinct officials
13 supposed to ask?
14 A. Exactly what was on the sheet.
15 Q. What was that? I'm not asking for the exact
16 but just to your best recall.
17 A. It was is educational to inform them that
18 beginning in 2016, photo ID would be required.
19 Do you have photo ID? But that is not verbatim
20 what it said.
21 Q. That's fine.
22 Were precinct officials instructed to
23 ask for -- to look at the photo ID?
24 A. Our comments were most people -- and I watched
25 this at the early voting site -- they came in
31
1 with their ID out.2 Q. But my question was were precinct officials3 instructed to ask to see a copy --4 A. No.5 Q. -- of the --6 A. No.7 Q. I'm sorry. Just in general, wait until I8 finish my question and then answer. All right.9 Thank you.
10 Were precinct officials trained as to11 whether an ID would pass the reasonable12 resemblance test?13 A. They were not trained. It's not a requirement14 at this time.15 Q. So if a person had an ID that had a photo of16 them with their married name on it, like a17 North Carolina driver's license with their18 married name but on the voter rolls they were19 listed under their maiden name, were precinct20 officials at all trained on whether that ID21 would be acceptable in the 2016 election?22 A. We have not received any direction from the23 State Board of Elections on exactly what will24 take place in 2016. So, no, they were not25 trained.
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1 Q. So all they were trained on was what -- to ask2 whether or not the voter had a photo ID?3 A. Correct.4 Q. Not whether that ID would actually be5 acceptable in the 2016 elections?6 A. That is correct. We do not know at this time7 what the State Board will direct.8 Q. Were precinct officials at all instructed on9 asking a voter whether their photo ID would be10 expired by the 2016 election?11 A. No.12 Q. So the question was just whether you had a13 photo ID that was on the list?14 A. The question was what we were given by the15 State Board.16 Q. Got it.17 A. They were then given the sheet prepared by the18 State Board of the IDs.19 Q. Okay.20 A. And I believe the State Board number was on21 there if any voter had questions.22 Q. Okay. Now, if the court issues a preliminary23 injunction on HB 589 and -- for the general24 2014 election, Wake County Board will have to25 train officials on how election laws were prior
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1 to HB 589?2 A. That is correct.3 Q. Would Wake County be able to handle that?4 A. We start training in August, so all of our5 materials at this time are for the current law.6 And with the number of precinct officials that7 we have -- and please understand, we have a8 large number of new officials -- Wake County9 adheres to the law.10 Q. So if the court said you had to train people11 under pre-HB 589 election laws, you would be12 able to do it?13 A. We would have to do it, but we would have to14 get more resources.15 Q. I'm going to switch topics a little. Are you16 okay to keep going --17 A. Uh-huh.18 Q. -- or do you need a break? Okay.19 Paragraph 6 of your declaration, which20 starts at the bottom -- actually, it's still21 paragraph 6 but I'm referring to the paragraph22 at the bottom of page 4 that starts "The Wake23 County Board of Elections budget."24 A. Uh-huh.25 Q. Now, this is about early voting, one-stop
34
1 voting. Prior to HB 589, how many days were
2 there for one-stop early voting?
3 A. In our office, 17.
4 Q. And then after HB 589 in Wake County, how many
5 days of one-stop voting are there?
6 MR. FARR: Objection to the form.
7 That means I think the question is
8 confusing, but you can answer it if you want
9 to. I mean, you can answer it. I can't tell
10 you not to answer the question, but I didn't
11 like the way the question is --
12 THE WITNESS: Let's repeat it then to
13 make sure I understand what you're saying.
14 BY MS. WU:
15 Q. Of course. After HB 589 starting in
16 January 1st, 2014, how many days of one-stop
17 voting does Wake County have?
18 A. In our office, 10.
19 Q. Pre-HB 589 and post HB 589 -- sorry, strike
20 that.
21 Do you know what the cumulative hours
22 requirement is?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What is it?
25 A. Same -- same number of hours offered, whether
35
1 it be Board of Elections office and additional
2 sites, as the equivalent election in 2010.
3 Q. So to clarify, that means the May 2014 primary,
4 2014 had to have the same number of hours as
5 Wake County did in the May 2010 primary
6 election?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And did Wake County comply with that cumulative
9 hours requirement?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And how did Wake County go about doing that?
12 Did you have extended hours at existing -- at
13 locations that you had in the 2010 primary or
14 did you open new locations?
15 A. That is a board decision on the locations, the
16 dates and the times. We met the requirement.
17 To you, May might be just a little
18 while ago. To me, I'm concentrated on two
19 weeks from now when I have an election.
20 So you can go on my website and get
21 that. I cannot give you a definitive.
22 Q. So you have no idea sitting here today how Wake
23 County Board of Elections met the cumulative
24 hours requirement?
25 A. We had the same number of sites as we had in
36
1 the 2010 primary.2 Q. Okay. So you had the same number of sites.3 Does that mean you had to have extended hours4 at those sites?5 A. Generally we did not open our additional sites6 until after the Board of Elections had been7 open. They were open nine days, I believe, in8 2010 primary. They were open ten days or they9 will be open ten days.10 Wake County rarely opens the additional11 sites the first day of early voting. That12 would be the best way to say that.13 Q. Okay. So I'm a little confused by your14 response and it might just be we're talking15 past each other, but for the May 2014 primary,16 did Wake County Board of Elections have the17 same number of sites open for one-stop voting?18 A. Correct.19 Q. Yes?20 A. Yes.21 Q. Does that mean that they had to have those22 locations open for extended hours to meet the23 cumulative hours requirement?24 A. What do you mean by extended hours?25 Q. Well, if you have, let's say, ten locations
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1 open for one-stop voting in 2010, correct --2 just let me walk you through this hypothetical.3 If you had ten locations in Wake County4 for 2010 for one-stop voting and then in 20145 you had the same number of locations, ten in6 Wake County, but in 2010 you had it open for7 17 days and in 2014 you had it open for ten8 days but you needed the same number of hours,9 did you meet that requirement by having those10 locations open for a longer number of hours?11 MR. FARR: I have to object to the form12 of that question.13 You can answer it.14 THE WITNESS: I don't think you're15 understanding what I'm saying.16 BY MS. WU:17 Q. Okay. Then try and explain it to me.18 A. The additional early voting sites were never19 open for 17 days.20 Q. So how did it work in 2010?21 A. They were not open for 17 days.22 Q. How many days were they open for?23 A. I cannot remember right now. Generally they24 did not open the same day as the Board of25 Elections office opened. The statute is clear:
38
1 When the board of elections, it opens on that
2 Thursday during normal business hours. The
3 additional sites were not open that same.
4 Q. I think I understand what you're saying. You
5 said -- so you had the same number of sites but
6 some of those sites would not be open on
7 certain days?
8 A. Or all.
9 Q. Or at all. And then now in 2014 they might
10 have been open for more days?
11 A. They were all open the same number of days and
12 the same hours.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. For 2014. I'm not referring back to 2010.
15 Q. I got it.
16 What was the exact number of hours that
17 you had for one-stop voting in 2014?
18 A. I can't give you a number. I know we met it.
19 Q. So in your declaration -- this is still
20 paragraph 16 at the bottom of page 4 --
21 A. Paragraph 6.
22 Q. Yeah, at the bottom of page 4. Are you there?
23 A. Yeah. You said 16.
24 Q. I'm sorry.
25 For one-stop -- you say for the
39
1 one-stop period to be extended to 17 days would
2 create a financial hardship for the counties.
3 What do you mean by that?
4 A. 2014 budget is passed. We would have to get
5 additional resources to open the additional
6 hours.
7 My board has already adopted a plan of
8 implementation for November 2014. It met the
9 budget that it requested.
10 Q. But there aren't additional hours under the
11 cumulative hours requirement; isn't that
12 correct?
13 A. There's one or two. Yes, there is.
14 Q. Where?
15 A. In our office.
16 Q. How many hours?
17 A. That information will be on our website and in
18 the minutes.
19 Q. But you don't know sitting here how many hours?
20 A. No, I do not. The board met on that last week.
21 Q. How much additional -- how much additional
22 finances are you going to have to expend to
23 keep those -- to keep your office open for
24 those --
25 A. That is something I'd have to research.
40
1 Q. So sitting here today you have no idea?
2 A. I'm not going to give numbers unless I have a
3 sufficient time to look at everything that is
4 involved.
5 Q. And going back to that same statement, you
6 said, you know, for the one-stop period to be
7 extended to 17 days would create financial
8 hardship for the counties; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You've only served on the Wake County Board of
11 Elections; isn't that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What's your basis for asserting that it will
14 create a financial hardship for any other
15 county in the state?
16 A. County directors talk: How much did you ask,
17 what is your board doing.
18 There's been a lot of media attention
19 as county boards do early voting sites. The
20 State Board says the plans have to be in by
21 July 31st, so everyone is meeting that deadline
22 now with their boards meeting. So you get an
23 idea. Budgets have passed.
24 Q. So who specifically have you talked to from
25 other counties?
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1 A. I talk to directors all the time.
2 Q. Who specifically?
3 A. I can't give you any specifics exactly.
4 Q. Are you aware that other county board of
5 elections directors have testified in this case
6 that the cutting back of early voting would not
7 increase or decrease the amount spent for
8 one-stop voting?
9 MR. FARR: Objection to the form.
10 THE WITNESS: No.
11 BY MS. WU:
12 Q. Did you review any other budgets for any other
13 county?
14 A. No. We talk about budgets.
15 Q. But you don't remember who you talked to?
16 A. After 23 years in this position, directors call
17 me all the time for a lot of various questions,
18 what are you doing, got a better way of doing
19 this. I do not keep a log of my phone calls.
20 Q. You don't remember any conversations you had
21 with any county directors about the budget?
22 A. No. My understanding is the budgets were done
23 on 10 days.
24 Q. Turning back to paragraph 5, out-of-precinct
25 voting. Now, just stepping back generally, can
42
1 you describe the process for me prior to
2 HB 589, what would happen if a person showed up
3 at a precinct that was not registered in that
4 precinct? What would be the process for them
5 to vote a provisional ballot?
6 A. As with any person walking into a polling place
7 on election day, they go to the check-in table.
8 They state their name and address, primary,
9 they state their party.
10 The precinct official looks them up in
11 the poll book for that precinct. If that
12 person is not in the poll book, they are sent
13 to the help table. The help table has in their
14 laptop the database of every single registered
15 voter in the county.
16 They could find that person registered,
17 verify that that person did not move, that the
18 address they're giving is still where they
19 live, and inform that voter where their name
20 would appear on the books.
21 They would encourage the voter to go to
22 that precinct and vote because they would then
23 be entitled to vote a ballot with all contests
24 on it that they were eligible. In that same
25 database is driving instructions to that new
43
1 precinct or to the precinct that they're duly2 registered.3 If the voter says, "No, I want to vote4 here," then the voter is given the provisional5 ballot envelope, which they must complete,6 they're given the ballot for the precinct that7 they're in and they are again informed "Please8 understand by voting provisional, not all9 contests on this ballot may count because you
10 may not be entitled to vote for those11 jurisdictions."12 The voter will then go to a separate13 booth, vote the ballot, insert it and seal it14 into the envelope and give it back to the help15 table official.16 Q. And then after that process, what happens?17 A. One other thing. The voter is given the sheet18 of paper prepared by the -- drafted by the19 State Board that we print where it gives the20 information for the voter to find out the21 status of the provisional ballot.22 Q. So just to clarify, to repeat the steps, one,23 they show up and if they're not on the poll24 book, they get sent to the help desk?25 A. Correct.
44
1 Q. And then that help desk precinct official tries2 to determine what precinct they're actually3 registered in and they're encouraged to go to4 that precinct to vote?5 A. They don't try. They look right in the6 database so they know where the -- what7 precinct the voter is registered. It's right8 there in the database.9 Q. Okay. But then they are encouraged to go to10 that precinct to vote?11 A. Correct.12 Q. And if they choose not to, they vote a13 provisional ballot?14 A. That's correct.15 Q. And then what happens after the envelope goes16 into the -- the provisional ballot goes into17 the box?18 A. There's also a poll book, provisional poll19 book. At the end of the day, that is sealed.20 There's a bag --21 Q. Sure.22 A. -- for provisional envelopes.23 All secure supplies, which that would24 be one, is brought back to the Board of25 Elections Operations Center. The first thing
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1 the following day you have staff that will2 precinct by precinct reconcile the provisional3 ballot envelopes against the provisional poll4 book to verify that that reconciles. They're5 still kept by precinct.6 The next step is to go into the7 provisional module, type all the information in8 for that voter. It would be connected to the9 voter's actual voter information. That is when10 it would be determined that that voter voted11 outside their own precinct. That would go into12 another section for further review because it's13 out of precinct.14 The staff member would again look and15 see what ballot did the voter vote -- that's on16 the outside of the envelope -- what ballot17 style from the state database should the voter18 have voted. Then you have to determine what19 contests are different, what contest did that20 voter actually vote that they were not entitled21 to.22 Q. And this is all a manual process?23 A. Correct.24 Q. So it involves sort of hand counting?25 A. It involves research. Right now you're not
46
1 counting anything.2 Q. Okay. Okay.3 A. You're just doing the research.4 Q. Okay.5 A. You have to look at what -- what Congressional6 District they were in, what state Senate7 District they were in, what State House8 District they were in, what Superior Court9 District they were in. What of those districts10 were on their ballot and what was the district11 number.12 Then you have a sample ballot of what13 they should have voted if they voted in their14 correct precinct and you have to compare the15 two. So if they were in Congressional 2 but16 where they voted was Congressional 4, then that17 vote would not count for the voter.18 All of that information is then brought19 to our board because they are the only ones20 that can accept or deny the provisional21 ballots. Any of the out-of-precinct would have22 to be then partially hand counted.23 MR. FARR: Can I ask you a question.24 Do you know how much longer you're going to25 have? If you're going to go for another hour,
47
1 we're going to need to take a break.2 MS. WU: I'm not going to take an hour.3 MR. FARR: Cherie, do you need to take4 a break?5 THE WITNESS: I'm okay.6 MR. DEVANEY: I'm sorry. This is John7 Devaney on the line. I just wanted to announce8 that I was here. I represent Duke intervenors.9 I'll probably have five to ten minutes worth of10 questions. I just wanted to announce that.11 Thank you.12 BY MS. WU:13 Q. So then we just went through the pre-HB 58914 process. In the post HB 589 process, it's my15 understanding that out-of-precinct ballots that16 are cast are no longer counted; is that17 correct?18 A. From the latest memo or one of the memos we19 received from the State Board, if it's an20 unreported-move voter --21 Q. Okay. So aside --22 MR. FARR: Can she finish her answer.23 BY MS. WU:24 Q. Oh, yeah. Go ahead. Sorry.25 A. If an unreported-move voter goes to their old
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1 precinct and says "I moved," again, that same2 process would transpire at the help table:3 "Let me look up your new address, I'll tell you4 where you vote."5 If they do not want to vote or go to6 their new precinct, they have to be offered the7 provisional ballot. You never deny anyone the8 right to vote. You explain the situation.9 Q. Okay.10 A. In this situation because, in essence, they are11 voting out of precinct because they have moved12 more than 30 days, then, yes, they are voting13 out of precinct, but the congressional race14 would count.15 Q. But that counts?16 A. Yes.17 Q. So for anyone other than the unreported-move18 voter who votes out of precinct, those would19 not be counted, correct?20 A. That is my understanding for the law, yes.21 Q. But they would still be offered -- they would22 still be directed to the help desk, correct, if23 they showed up in the wrong precinct?24 A. If they are not in the poll book for that25 precinct, they are directed to the help table
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1 in all situations.2 Q. And if they choose not to go to their correct3 precinct, they would still be offered a4 provisional ballot; is that correct?5 A. With the understanding to let them know it6 would not count.7 Q. But they would still -- go ahead.8 A. Thank you. Unless it's an unreported move.9 Q. So they would still be offered a provisional
10 ballot to vote?11 A. Correct.12 Q. And they could go vote in the voter booth13 enclosure?14 A. Correct.15 Q. And that provisional ballot would still go into16 that sealed bag?17 A. Yes.18 Q. And that provisional ballot would go with all19 other provisional ballots back to the Wake20 County Board of Elections' office; is that21 correct?22 A. The operations center.23 Q. The operations center, sorry.24 And you would still have to25 determine -- go through that research process;
50
1 is that correct?
2 A. That is correct. To the Board of Elections, it
3 is still just a provisional ballot.
4 Q. Right. And then at what point -- and then you
5 would recommend -- you would give those
6 provisional ballots to the Board of Elections
7 to determine whether that out-of-precinct
8 provisional ballot could be counted or not?
9 A. We do not recommend.
10 Q. Okay. But it would go to the County Board of
11 Elections?
12 A. It is a decision of the county board, correct.
13 Q. So they would still get that out-of-precinct
14 provisional ballot that was cast?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. The only change in the process is that the
17 county board would determine under HB 589 that
18 it was not -- that they could not count that
19 vote; is that correct?
20 A. Repeat that, please.
21 Q. Sorry. The only difference is that the county
22 board of elections, once they receive that
23 provisional ballot, would determine that that
24 vote could not count for those districts?
25 MR. FARR: Objection to the form.
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1 MR. WARREN: Do you understand what2 she's asking?3 MR. FARR: My objection would be4 receive the ballot.5 THE WITNESS: There is a ballot sealed6 in an envelope. All of the research still has7 to be done on that ballot.8 BY MS. WU:9 Q. Okay.10 A. The difference is because the law has changed,11 if that voter voted out of precinct, it would12 be in a separate bin. And I refer to it as a13 bin because we categorize everything. We have14 thousands. So this would be in a "voter voted15 out of precinct."16 So you don't -- you still have17 research, but you do not have to determine the18 difference. You don't have to see that ballot19 that they voted versus the ballot they should20 have voted and go through all of that -- those21 steps. That's eliminated.22 Q. So the research happens but it goes into the23 bin -- a separate bin now?24 A. For out of precinct.25 Q. Does that bin still go to the county board?
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1 A. The county board is the only one that has the
2 authority to approve or disapprove any ballot,
3 yes.
4 Q. So they would still have to review the ballot?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. FARR: Objection to form.
7 BY MS. WU:
8 Q. Ms. Poucher, do you know what the United States
9 Election Assistance Commission is?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What is it?
12 A. The Election Assistance Commission.
13 Q. What does it do?
14 A. I'm not going to give a definition because I
15 don't know a sufficient amount of what it is to
16 state a good answer.
17 Q. So you don't even know in general what they do?
18 A. They oversee. I know they do a testing and
19 certification for election equipment and
20 software. They have quick guides.
21 Q. Have you ever testified in front of the
22 United States Election Assistance Commission?
23 A. Years ago.
24 Q. When? Do you know?
25 A. It's been a long time ago.
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1 Q. If I represented to you it was in 2005, does
2 that sound --
3 A. If you say so.
4 Q. Do you remember what the nature of that
5 testimony or hearing was about?
6 A. Not that one because there were others that I
7 have different task force -- force -- task
8 forces that I have been involved with on a
9 national level.
10 Q. Sure. Do you remember submitting written
11 testimony as part of that hearing?
12 A. I have submitted testimony in regards to
13 several hearings, but if you say so, but I do
14 not recall.
15 Q. Okay. I am going to hand you what will be
16 marked as Exhibit 207.
17 (WHEREUPON, Plaintiff's Exhibit 207 was
18 marked for identification.)
19 BY MS. WU:
20 Q. Do you see the title --
21 MR. FARR: I would like to suggest that
22 we take a break so she can read this testimony
23 before we have further questions on it.
24 MS. WU: That's fine. I want to note
25 for the record the title of the document is
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1 Written Comments, Cherie Poucher, Director of
2 Elections, Wake County, North Carolina,
3 Implementation and Use of Provisional Voting.
4 And we can go off the record so you can
5 have a chance to review it and take a break.
6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off record at
7 1:04 p.m.
8 (Brief Recess.)
9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On back on record at
10 1:18 p.m.
11 MR. FARR: Thank you, Jodi. I
12 appreciate you giving me a chance to ask this
13 question.
14 MS. WU: Sure.
15 MR. FARR: We notice that there were no
16 Bate stamp numbers on this document and we
17 wanted to know if you were aware of whether
18 this document was produced to the defendants
19 prior to this deposition.
20 MS. WU: This is a publicly available
21 document that we located off the internet.
22 MR. FARR: Was it produced?
23 MS. WU: It was not.
24 MR. FARR: Okay. Thank you.
25 MS. WU: Yep, no problem.
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1 MR. FARR: You may continue.2 MR. WARREN: Are you ready?3 THE WITNESS: I don't know that I wrote4 it.5 MR. FARR: Well, just let Jodi ask you6 questions.7 BY MS. WU:8 Q. Ms. Poucher, have you had a chance to review9 the testimony, the document in front of you?10 MR. FARR: Exhibit 207.11 BY MS. WU:12 Q. Yes.13 A. Yes.14 Q. And what is it?15 A. As the title says, it's written comments by me16 for the implementation and use of provisional17 voting.18 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, is this a19 true and accurate representation of the written20 comments you submitted to the U.S. Election21 Assistance Commission?22 A. I cannot say. I'm not sure when this was23 written and it's a long time ago. So I would24 prefer -- I don't know. I know I gave25 statements. I know North Carolina was one of
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1 the first to offer provisional voting.
2 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that it's not
3 a true and accurate representation of the
4 statements you provided to the U.S. Election
5 Assistance Commission?
6 A. If you say so.
7 Q. Now, in paragraph 1, as you see on the first
8 page, you stated in your written comments to
9 the United States Election Assistance
10 Commission, quote:
11 "Provisional voting provides a
12 mechanism to ensure that all citizens
13 have a chance to vote and at the same
14 time maintains the integrity of the
15 election process."
16 Is that correct?
17 A. That's what it states here in writing, yes.
18 Q. And then moving down to the fourth paragraph --
19 let me know when you're there -- you also
20 state, quote:
21 "The voters appreciated the
22 fact that they were allowed to vote
23 and the precinct officials appreciated
24 the fact that they no longer had to
25 tell a person that they could not vote
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1 in that precinct. It alleviated angry
2 responses to the official and
3 decreased the number of calls into it
4 the Board of Elections office," end quote.
5 Is that correct?
6 A. That's what it states, yes.
7 Q. Now, flipping to page 2, you provided some
8 numbers for election years from 1998, 2000,
9 2002 and 2004 for provisional ballots that were
10 counted. Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In 2004, you listed the number of provisional
13 ballots counted as over 10,000, it's
14 specifically 10,915; is that correct?
15 A. That's what it states, yes.
16 Q. To the best of your knowledge, do you know if
17 after 2004 that number stayed the same,
18 increased, decreased, for Wake County?
19 A. For Wake County, it began going down.
20 Q. So, for example, in the 2012 election, do you
21 know approximately how many ballots were cast
22 provisionally?
23 A. I know we can get that information from the
24 State Board, but number-wise no.
25 Q. Do you know -- do you have any explanation for
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1 why the number of provisional ballots
2 decreased?
3 A. The use of the laptop with all of the data in
4 the laptop for the precinct official to let the
5 voter know and to be able to get them a
6 transfer or let them -- the most of what we
7 call an unreported move is the voter that shows
8 up at their new precinct, they've moved, they
9 haven't let us know.
10 They show up at the correct place but
11 they're not in the poll book because they did
12 not update their address with us.
13 That help table official can look them
14 up, "Oh, yes, you are registered," and the
15 person can say, "Yes, I moved."
16 Q. And the laptop allowed the help desk official?
17 A. The laptop can say, okay, we have your
18 registration information, what is your new
19 address.
20 Q. Got it. Any other reasons why provisional
21 ballots might have decreased?
22 A. We do a lot of press releases in regards to
23 constantly updating your address.
24 Q. Do you think that same-day registration had any
25 impact on decreasing the amount of provisional
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1 ballots that were cast in Wake County?2 A. I wouldn't want to give an opinion on that.3 Q. So at the bottom of that table on page 2 you4 stated:5 "The majority of Wake County's6 provisional voters are unreported7 moves."8 A. Correct.9 Q. Can you just explain to me what "unreported10 moves" are?11 A. Again, it's that voter that is currently12 registered in Wake County, moved within Wake13 County but did not notify the Board of14 Elections by the 25-day deadline and showed up15 at the polling place for their new address.16 That's an unreported move.17 Q. And that unreported mover, does he or she cast18 a provisional ballot?19 A. With the poll book, we at that time were20 allowed to vote them as a transfer voter.21 Q. What is a transfer voter?22 A. You transfer them out of one precinct into23 another.24 Q. So do they cast a regular ballot or a25 provisional ballot?
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1 A. Regular.2 Q. Okay. What if that unreported mover shows up3 to their old precinct?4 A. Hopefully the voter would tell us they moved.5 Q. And if they tell you they moved and they are6 now technically in a new precinct, what7 happens?8 A. Then they are -- now what are you talking now9 because we're going before and after. So I10 might have misunderstood the question. I'm11 sorry.12 Q. You mean pre HB 589?13 A. Uh-huh.14 Q. Okay. So post HB 589, if an unreported mover15 shows up at their old precinct, what happens?16 A. If they inform -- when they state their name17 and address -- hopefully they would state their18 current correct address, which is not the19 address in the book -- they would be sent to20 the help table. At that time they would have21 multiple choices.22 Q. What are those choices?23 A. They could update their information on the24 Authorization to Vote. There's a section on25 the authorization, and we could physically
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1 transfer them into their new precinct on this2 piece of paper. They would go to their new3 precinct and vote a regular ballot.4 Q. And if they choose to do that transfer but then5 not go to their new precinct to vote, what6 would happen?7 A. They wouldn't be a transfer. They would --8 if -- at that time they would probably then9 state -- because I'm not in the precinct so10 this is a supposition.11 Q. Sure.12 A. If the voter says, "Well, I don't want to go to13 my new precinct," we could also tell them to go14 to the central location, which is our office.15 Q. What if they don't want to go to the central16 location?17 A. Then they are informed to vote a provisional18 ballot.19 At that time, generally what we would20 hope that the voter would do is take a Voter21 Registration Application to update their22 address after the election.23 Q. So if the unreported mover votes -- chooses to24 vote the provisional ballot in the old25 precinct, under HB 589 does that vote
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1 eventually get counted for the races that
2 they're eligible to vote for?
3 A. That I do not remember what the last directive
4 from the State Board was. I believe there is a
5 certain situation that you would count the
6 ballot they're eligible.
7 There's a difference between someone
8 just going to a precinct and voting versus an
9 unreported move, but I don't have the memo in
10 front of me.
11 Q. What memo are you talking about?
12 A. There was a State Board memo in regards to
13 unreported moves and provisional ballots.
14 Q. Are you aware that in the May 2014 primary
15 there were 11 unreported-move voters that were
16 cast provisionally that the Wake County Board
17 decided not to count?
18 A. May --
19 Q. May 2014, this past election.
20 A. You can ask -- my Board made that decision and
21 they wrote for direction from -- they had
22 written for direction from the State Board.
23 Q. And are you aware that the State Board
24 instructed the Wake County Board that they made
25 the wrong decision in deciding not to count
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1 those 11 unreported moves cast provisionally?2 A. My understanding -- and I would -- you would3 have to check the statistics with the State4 Board -- I do not believe it was 11. I thought5 it was 4.6 MR. FARR: Can I ask a favor of7 everybody. Would you please make sure that8 counsel has finished her question.9 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.10 MR. FARR: And also Cherie sometimes11 stops in the middle of her answer, so if you12 make sure she's finished her answer, I'd13 appreciate it.14 MS. WU: Of course.15 BY MS. WU:16 Q. So regardless whether it was 4 or 11, you do17 recall that the State Board of Elections18 instructed the Wake County Board that they had19 made an error in not counting those20 unreported-move voters who cast provisional21 ballots?22 A. I received a copy of that letter and my board23 received a copy, yes.24 Q. And sitting here today, as the director of the25 Wake County Board of Elections, you cannot tell
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1 me if an unreported-move voter who votes in
2 their old precinct would be able to cast a
3 provisional ballot that would be counted?
4 A. I have -- I have it in the office. And, again,
5 as I prepare for the July 15th, I will reread
6 it, but I have been involved in getting
7 everything ready and then I keep that in a
8 separate pile to review.
9 I've had several board meetings since
10 that time, but that will be made available to
11 my board the day we have the provisionals.
12 Q. So my question was: Sitting here today, you
13 cannot tell me one way or the other whether
14 those unreported-move voters that cast
15 provisional ballots in their old precinct
16 should be counted or not?
17 A. My understanding is if the unreported move does
18 not want to go to the new precinct, you count
19 what they're eligible to count -- or eligible
20 to vote. I'm sorry.
21 Q. Has Wake County ever missed or had missed -- I
22 guess -- going back to your declaration which
23 is Exhibit 206, this is paragraph 5 on page 3.
24 It's actually the last sentence.
25 And it's my understanding that the
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1 county board of elections has to go through the2 process of evaluating and counting provisional3 ballots and they either have seven or ten days4 following the election; is that correct?5 A. Yes.6 Q. Depending on what kind of election it is?7 A. Yes.8 Q. Has the Wake County Board of Elections ever9 missed the seven- or ten-day window for10 counting provisional ballots?11 A. I believe so, but I cannot remember the date.12 Q. You don't remember the year of the election?13 A. No. I can give you circumstances of how the14 board handles something like that.15 Q. Sure. Go ahead.16 A. The statute says you must convene at17 11 o'clock -- it used to be the Tuesday. If we18 were not done with the hand-counting or the19 replication of the out-of-precinct ballots,20 then the Board would meet at 11:00 to convene21 the canvass and then recess until it was done.22 Q. So you would still get through the process of23 counting the provisional ballots?24 A. Correct.25 Q. And then reconvene?
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1 A. Yes.2 Q. Okay. Turning back to Exhibit 207, the written3 comments that you submitted to the4 United States Election Assistance Commission,5 turning to page 4, you concluded your6 statements by stating, quote:7 "The provisional ballot is a8 wonderful tool allowing all citizens9 who feel they are eligible to vote to10 cast a ballot. It places the burden11 of determining voter eligibility on12 the Boards of Election who have at13 hand all the information necessary to14 make a decision.15 "The voter is not disenfranchised16 and the local precinct official does17 not have the final say. Standardization18 of the use and implementation of the19 provisional ballot in each state should20 be our goal," end quote.21 That was your statement?22 A. As written here, yes.23 Q. Just a couple more questions.24 Since HB 589 has passed, have you25 received any calls from people in Wake County
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1 about early voting either asking questions2 about the shortened time period or expressing3 any sort of opinion about the shortened time4 period?5 A. The Board held a meeting last week, I believe6 it was, June 24th because it was the first7 meeting on absentee for the second primary, and8 citizens were notified that if they had any9 comments, written or oral, regarding early10 voting, the Board would hear those comments at11 the meeting.12 It wasn't a public hearing. It was13 more of a work session where citizens were able14 to come and give their opinions on locations15 and times.16 Q. And did any citizens choose to participate in17 that process?18 A. We had over a hundred people in attendance.19 And I cannot give you an exact number of people20 that spoke, but the chair allowed anybody in21 attendance that wanted to speak the opportunity22 to do so.23 Q. And can you give me a sense of what those24 comments were of people who spoke?25 A. Hours and locations.
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1 Q. And what were their opinions of the hours and
2 locations?
3 A. Most of the hours centered around Sunday
4 voting, and the sites vary depending on who the
5 speaker was and the location in the county they
6 live. Of course, everyone would like one right
7 on their corner.
8 Q. Of course.
9 A. But you had a large contingent of voters who
10 requested sites at Chavis and NC State. You
11 had another group who asked for surrounding
12 county to have it because that's where the
13 growth is.
14 So the Board took all of the comments
15 into consideration.
16 Q. What were the opinions expressed about Sunday
17 voting?
18 A. That depended on who the speaker was.
19 Q. Can you give me an example?
20 A. Some of the speakers felt it was important to
21 continue Sunday -- to have Sunday -- or to
22 allow Sunday voting, I should say, and others
23 felt that Sunday was the Sabbath and there
24 should not be Sunday voting, so it was mixed.
25 MS. WU: I may be done, but if we could
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1 take a brief break just so we can confer.
2 MR. FARR: Sure.
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off record at
4 1:37 p.m.
5 (Brief Recess.)
6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on record at
7 1:47 p.m.
8 MS. WU: I have no further questions.
9 I believe John, who's on the phone, has a
10 couple questions.
11 EXAMINATION
12 BY MR. DEVANEY:
13 Q. Hello, Ms. Poucher. How are you?
14 A. Fine, thank you.
15 Q. I trust you can hear me okay.
16 A. Oh, yes.
17 Q. Just so you know, I represent the Duke
18 intervenors in this case, and I'm with the law
19 firm Perkins Coie, and I am sitting in my desk
20 here in 98 degree Washington, DC.
21 A. Fortunately we're in air-conditioning.
22 Q. It's a little hard to hear over the phone so I
23 trust that if I ask a question or two that's
24 already been asked that your counsel will let
25 me know that.
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1 And what I would like to do,2 Ms. Poucher, is focus primarily on your3 declaration. Do you have that in front of you?4 A. Yes.5 Q. Would you please go to paragraph 4.6 A. Yes.7 Q. You state there in the first sentence that8 during your 23 years service as director of9 Wake County Board of Elections, the Board of10 Elections instituted a voter registration drive11 each fall in high schools. Do you see that?12 A. Yes.13 Q. Could you please describe for me what those14 election or voter registration drives consisted15 of?16 A. I believe that was asked and answered.17 MR. FARR: It was.18 BY MR. DEVANEY:19 Q. What was your role in those -- in those drives?20 A. I was the conduit to meet with the head of the21 social studies and my staff to pretty much22 explain the guidelines of registering to vote,23 and they explained to us the listing that they24 would use in regards to the students who would25 be 18 by the next election and were citizens.
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1 That was a list that we would not have been
2 entitled to because they're students.
3 Q. And you go on to say -- I'm sorry, were you
4 done?
5 A. At that point, my staff took over for working
6 with the school social study teachers when
7 their forms were ready to be picked up.
8 Q. Okay. Thank you.
9 And then you go on to say here that the
10 school with the highest percentage of eligible
11 voters who registered received recognition.
12 Was that something that was done
13 annually?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. And how did you all determine which school had
16 the highest percentage and would be worthy of
17 that recognition?
18 A. Each school itself knew the number of students
19 that would have been eligible to register, they
20 then knew the number that did register, and
21 then through that determined the percentage and
22 our staff would look to see who had the highest
23 percentage.
24 Q. Were you at all involved in coming up with this
25 idea of recognizing schools?
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1 A. No, I was not. We held voter registration
2 drives prior to that time, but my board chair
3 at the time, Dr. John Gilbert, thought it might
4 be even more successful to register
5 18-year-olds if we had some kind of contest, so
6 that's when the contest, among all the Wake
7 County high schools, was implemented.
8 Q. Do you believe that the contest was effective?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Why?
11 A. Because we were able to register students that
12 would be 18 by the November election or October
13 election prior to a municipal.
14 Q. All right. You go on in the next sentence:
15 "This method of registering
16 voters (who would be 18 by the next
17 election) was very successful."
18 Can you explain what you mean by that
19 statement?
20 A. When you can have such a high percentage of
21 high school students register to vote, that is
22 successful.
23 Q. And do you have a memory as you sit there today
24 as to any quantification of the success, like
25 how registration was increased, by what
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1 percentage or any quantitative data like that?
2 A. No, I do not.
3 Q. At one point were you aware of how this program
4 had affected registration among younger voters?
5 A. Percentage-wise, no, sir.
6 Q. Okay. But it's your general impression that
7 the program was successful and that it
8 increased the registration of younger voters;
9 is that right?
10 A. Yes, because basically the program started once
11 school started in August and so you knew if it
12 was in October or November election, you had
13 the opportunity to register them and then they
14 could hopefully vote in the very near future.
15 Q. Ms. Poucher, how long was this program in place
16 to your knowledge?
17 A. It's still in place in Wake County.
18 Q. Okay. You go on to say here that the
19 pre-registration of 16- and 17-year-olds
20 creates confusion among the 16- and
21 17-year-olds who then thought he/she was
22 registered and could vote.
23 Do you see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Let me ask you: Have you already been asked
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1 about this sentence --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- that you've got in here?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. You were asked about it?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you a question and if
8 you already answered it you all can let me
9 know, but do you have specific examples of
10 confusion that was created among any specific
11 16- and 17-year-olds?
12 A. I answered that as generally as I -- or as
13 specifically as I could, which would be
14 generally, and that would be -- excuse me for
15 answering that way, but it's -- I can't give
16 names, addresses and dates, but from anyone who
17 had registered at 16 or 17 and within a few
18 months did not get a voter card and then would
19 call our office finding out why they hadn't
20 gotten a voter card yet.
21 Q. Do you have any sense of how often that
22 occurred?
23 A. No, sir, because with the size and number of
24 voters in Wake County, I have a large number of
25 staff that answers the telephone and I
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1 don't -- I don't track that.2 Q. Do you know if there are any records reflecting3 the extent to which this confusion you talk4 about actually existed?5 A. No, sir.6 Q. And the next sentence speaks about the7 administrative cost that were increased through8 this pre-registration.9 Do you have any quantification of what10 those costs were that -- that were caused by11 this program?12 A. I believe that was answered before, but I can13 answer it again.14 Q. Well, if you'll indulge me, I would appreciate15 that.16 A. It is basically the fact that you're going17 through a process of doing the data entry on18 the applicant; then that information is held in19 the State Board file. I cannot remember if20 through the State Board file some mailing is21 done, that part I cannot remember.22 When the person is about to reach 18,23 that information is again sent back to the24 State Board where we have to review it again.25 It goes into the voter registration record as
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1 pending new and another voter -- and a voter2 card would be mailed and it would go through3 the list maintenance procedures by the State4 Board.5 Q. Do you have any specific quantification of what6 the additional costs were to complete that7 process?8 A. As I had stated before, when any of this -- any9 envelope or ID cards or confirmations come10 back, especially with the verification11 mailings, it doesn't delineate what that12 mailing is for except that it is an address13 verification.14 Q. Focusing still on this paragraph of your15 declaration, Ms. Poucher, am I right that in16 the beginning of paragraph 4 you're speaking17 about voter registration drives for18 17-year-olds who are going to be 18 in the next19 election and then you switch over to this20 pre-registration program that also includes21 16-year-olds? I just want to make sure I'm22 understanding this paragraph correctly.23 A. That is correct.24 Q. And am I right that Wake County no longer has25 the program for pre-registration of 16- or
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1 17-year-olds?2 A. That is correct. Once the law changed, we3 would not be allowed to do so.4 Q. And how long did the county have that5 pre-registration program in place?6 A. From the time we were directed to do so by the7 statute and by the State Board of Elections.8 The one thing I do want to state in9 response to the last question, and that is, of10 course, before any primary election, a11 17-year-old is allowed to register if they will12 be 18 by the November election and they would13 be allowed to participate in the primary.14 Q. All right. Thanks for that clarification.15 Now, with respect to this16 pre-registration program that no longer exists,17 did it increase voter registration and18 participation among young voters in your view?19 MR. FARR: Objection to the form.20 BY MR. DEVANEY:21 Q. You can answer.22 A. I would not have those statistics, sir.23 Q. Do you have an impression if not statistics?24 A. No, sir, because basically my -- I am concerned25 about the number of voters. I don't break them
78
1 down into any category.2 Q. Okay. So I take it, just to be clear, that3 you've not done any -- any analysis of what4 effect on registration and voter participation5 this pre-registration program had; is that6 right?7 A. That is correct.8 Q. Okay. Just a few more questions and we'll be9 done. Bear with me one second here, please.10 Still focusing on paragraph 4 of your11 declaration, you state in the third to last12 sentence:13 "In many instances, the pre-14 registered voter had moved (and the15 verification mailing was returned) or16 the pre-registered voter was at17 college and registered in another18 county or state."19 Similar to my prior questions, do you20 have any quantification of this, Ms. Poucher,21 as to how many instances on which this22 occurred?23 A. No, sir, I do not have any information on24 statistics. That could be something you might25 be able to have the State Board determine
79
1 through their software, but I would not.2 Q. Okay. So you just don't know how often this3 occurred?4 A. Correct.5 Q. And I take it for the next sentence which says:6 "The county board would then have7 to send a second mailing to the person8 which again would have been returned9 undeliverable."10 You don't have an understanding of how11 often that occurred?12 A. We don't differentiate between any of the13 different mailings. For a verification mailing14 that is mailed out, as I said before, we do not15 know if it's the first verification, the second16 verification, if it's asking for information,17 et cetera.18 Q. Okay. So to be clear, with respect to this19 pre-registration program, to the extent second20 mailings were sent and/or returned as21 undeliverable, you don't have the information22 to know how many involved actually the23 pre-registration program?24 A. That is correct.25 Q. Okay. That's all I have. Thank you.
80
1 A. Thank you.
2 MR. FARR: I have a few questions.
3 EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. FARR:
5 Q. Ms. Poucher, my name is Tom Farr.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. We know each other, do we not?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I have a couple of questions I would like to
10 ask you to clarify a few things.
11 Counsel for the NAACP was asking you
12 some questions about how out-of-precinct
13 voters' ballots were handled post 589 --
14 HB 589. Do you recall those questions?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And she asked you whether the State Board would
17 still need to review the ballots of
18 out-of-precinct voters. Do you recall that
19 question?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Okay. Do you want to clarify exactly what the
22 county board will now look at for
23 out-of-precinct voters.
24 A. The county board does not look at the actual
25 ballot. They look at the ballot -- the
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81
1 provisional ballot envelope to make that
2 determination. Then once the determination is
3 made of do you count or not count, at that time
4 the envelope itself would be opened.
5 Q. Okay. All right. Thanks.
6 Now I want to just ask you a couple
7 questions about Exhibit 207.
8 And, Ms. Poucher, you testified that
9 you and I met before this deposition; is that
10 correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you and I discuss Exhibit 207 when you and
13 I met two days ago, I guess it was?
14 A. 207, no, sir.
15 Q. Okay. Do you recall the last time you saw
16 Exhibit 207?
17 A. Probably after it was written.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. And I'm not sure from here. I can assume when
20 it was written, and that was many years ago.
21 Q. And you recall that counsel for the NAACP, I
22 believe they represented that it was her
23 understanding this was prepared in 2005. Do
24 you recall that?
25 A. That's what was stated, yes.
82
1 Q. Let's turn to paragraph 4.2 A. Yes.3 Q. Do you see the third paragraph there?4 A. The third paragraph, yes.5 Q. I'm going to read it into the record.6 MS. WU: You're on page --7 MR. PETERS: I think he meant page 4.8 BY MR. FARR:9 Q. I'm on page 4, the third paragraph. You see10 where it says:11 "Because of the Supreme Court12 ruling, Senate Bill 133 has been13 filed in the North Carolina General14 Assembly to clarify the legislative15 intent that out-of-precinct provisional16 ballots be counted for all contests for17 which the voter was eligible to vote."18 Do you see that?19 A. Yes.20 Q. What Supreme Court case were you referring to21 there? Do you remember?22 A. This involved the contest -- and I believe I've23 got that written in here too -- the contest for24 state superintendent of public instruction and25 there was a dispute in regards to here where it
83
1 stated out of precinct at that time we referred2 to as more or less unreported move, and there3 was an extensive lawsuit in regards to those4 provisional ballots and that's where the bill5 was filed.6 Q. Okay. Do you recall that in the Supreme Court7 case the North Carolina Supreme Court ruled8 that what we've described as out-of-precinct9 provisional ballots should not be counted?10 MS. WU: Objection to form.11 BY MR. FARR:12 Q. Do you recall that?13 A. The Supreme Court, let's see.14 Q. If you don't recall, that's fine.15 A. No, I don't. Oh, except it says it here so16 somewhere.17 Q. Okay. The document speaks for itself.18 So when you wrote this statement, the19 statute to clarify legislative intent about20 out-of-precinct provisional ballots had been21 filed in the North Carolina General Assembly.22 Is that what your statement says?23 A. Yes.24 Q. Does the statement say that that statute had25 been passed at the time you prepared this
84
1 statement?
2 A. No.
3 MR. FARR: That's all I have.
4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the
5 deposition of Ms. Cherie Poucher. Time going
6 off record is 2:06 p.m.
7 [SIGNATURE RESERVED]
8 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 2:06 P.M.]
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85
1 A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T O F D E P O N E N T
2
3 I, CHERIE POUCHER, declare under the penalties
4 of perjury under the State of North Carolina that I have
5 read the foregoing 84 pages, which contain a correct
6 transcription of answers made by me to the questions
7 therein recorded, with the exception(s) and/or
8 addition(s) reflected on the correction sheet attached
9 hereto, if any.
10 Signed this the day of , 2014.
11
12
CHERIE POUCHER
13
14
15 State of:
16 County of:
17 Subscribed and sworn to before me
18 this day of , 2014.
19
20
21 Notary Public
22 My commission expires:
23
24
25
86
1 E R R A T A S H E E T
2 Case Name: NAACP vs. McCrory and Related Cases
3 Witness Name: CHERIE POUCHER
4 Deposition Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2014
5
6 Page/Line Reads Should Read
7 ____/____|_______________________|___________________
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25 Signature Date
87
1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA )
) C E R T I F I C A T E
2 COUNTY OF WAKE )
3
4 I, DENISE MYERS BYRD, Court Reporter and Notary
5 Public, the officer before whom the foregoing proceeding was
6 conducted, do hereby certify that the witness whose testimony
7 appears in the foregoing proceeding were duly sworn by me;
8 that the testimony of said witness was taken by me to the
9 best of my ability and thereafter transcribed under my
10 supervision; and that the foregoing pages, inclusive,
11 constitute a true and accurate transcription of the testimony
12 of the witness(es).
13 Before completion of the deposition, review of the
14 transcript [X] was [ ] was not requested. If requested, any
15 changes made by the deponent (and provided to the reporter)
16 during the period allowed are appended hereto.
17 I further certify that I am neither counsel for,
18 related to, nor employed by any of the parties to this
19 action, and further, that I am not a relative or employee of
20 any attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereof, nor
21 financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of said
22 action. This the 3rd day of July 2014.
23
24
Denise Myers Byrd
25 CSR 8340, RPR, CLR 102409-02
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1
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
NORTH CAROLINA STATE )
CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, )
et al., )
)
Plaintiffs, )
)
vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-658
)
PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his )
official capacity as the )
Governor of North Carolina, )
et al., )
)
Defendants. )
)
)
LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )
NORTH CAROLINA, et al., )
)
Plaintiffs, )
)
vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-660
)
THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )
et al., )
)
Defendants. )
)
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )
)
Plaintiff, )
)
vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-861
)
THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )
et al., )
)
Defendants. )
________________________________
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
CHERIE R. POUCHER (Volume II)
2
1 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
2 CHERIE R. POUCHER
3 ___________________________________________________
4 9:11 a.m.
5 Tuesday, April 21, 2015
6 ___________________________________________________
7
POYNER SPRUILL, LLP
8
301 FAYETTEVILLE STREET
9
SUITE 1900
10
RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA
11
12
13
14 By: Cindy A. Hayden, RMR-CRR
15
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3
1 A P P E A R A N C E S2
3 Counsel for NAACP Plaintiffs:4 KIRKLAND & ELLIS
BY: JENNIFER BASCH, ESQ.5 (Via telephone)
601 Lexington Avenue6 New York, NY 10022-4611
(212) 446-59267 [email protected]
ADVANCEMENT PROJECT9 BY: DENISE LIEBERMAN, ESQ.
(Via telephone)10 1220 L Street, N.W.
Suite 85011 Washington, DC 20005
(202) 728-955712 [email protected]
Counsel for League of Women Voters Plaintiffs:14
SOUTHERN COALITION FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE15 BY: ALLISON RIGGS, ESQ.
EMILY SEAWELL, ESQ.16 1415 West Highway 54
Suite 10117 Durham, NC 27707
(919) 323-338018 [email protected]
Counsel for the United States of America Plaintiffs:20
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE21 BY: ERNEST A. McFARLAND, ESQ.
950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.22 Washington, DC 20530
(800) 253-393123 [email protected] (Appearances continued on next page.)25
4
1 (Appearances continued.)2
3 Counsel for Plaintiff-IntervenorsLeague of Women Voters:
4
PERKINS COIE5 BY: JOSHUA L. KAUL, ESQ.
(Via telephone)6 700 Thirteenth Street, N.W.
Suite 6007 Washington, DC 20005-3960
(202) 628-62008 [email protected]
Counsel for Defendants State of North Carolina and10 Members of the State Board of Elections:11 OGLETREE DEAKINS NASH SMOAK & STEWART
BY: THOMAS A. FARR, ESQ.12 4208 Six Forks Road
Suite 110013 Raleigh, NC 27609
(919) 787-970014 [email protected]
For the Deponent:16
WAKE COUNTY ATTORNEY'S OFFICE17 BY: SCOTT W. WARREN, ESQ.
301 South McDowell Street18 Raleigh, NC 27601
(919) 856-550019 [email protected] Reported By:21 DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS
AND LEGAL VIDEOGRAPHER22 BY: CINDY A. HAYDEN, RMR-CRR
BRENT TROUBLEFIELD, Videographer23 4208 Six Forks Road
Suite 100024 Raleigh, NC 27609
(919) 649-999825 [email protected]
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5
1 I N D E X2 PAGE3 EXAMINATION BY MS. RIGGS 84 EXAMINATION BY MR. KAUL 1465 EXAMINATION BY MS. RIGGS 1776
7 PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS8
POUCHER9 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
10 EXHIBIT 450 E-mails, Subject: Wake - DMV 10911 EXHIBIT 452 E-mails dated 11/05/14, Subject: 87
120 People12
EXHIBIT 453 E-mails dated 10/23/14, Subject: 8713 USPS - Absentee Mail14 EXHIBIT 456 E-mails, Subject: Voter Problems 77
- Paul Kearns District 20-1115
16
NEWLY MARKED EXHIBITS17
18 EXHIBIT 458 Third Amended Initial Disclosures 1119 EXHIBIT 459 Attachment 10 Declaration of 12
Cherie Poucher20
EXHIBIT 460 E-mails dated 4/4/13, Subject: 4421 Election bills22 EXHIBIT 461 Article titled NC Voters Charged 50
After Voting Twice in 200823
EXHIBIT 462 Article titled Voters Wait in 6424 Long Lines on Last Day of Early
Voting 25
6
1 EXHIBIT 463 E-mails dated 11/5/14, Subject: 69
Willow Oak Polling Location2
EXHIBIT 464 E-mails dated 8/4/11 and 8/5/11, 833 Subject: NC State Board of
Elections Research Inquiry4
EXHIBIT 465 E-mails, Subject: U.S. Postal 975 Service Disenfranchised a Chief
Judge6
EXHIBIT 466 Document titled Board of 1267 Commissioners Work Session Ground
Floor Conference Center May 11,8 20099
10 (Exhibits included with transcript.)11
12
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7
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at 9:11 a.m.
2 Today's date is April 21st, 2015. This is the
3 videotaped deposition of Cherie Poucher taken in
4 the matter of United States of America, Plaintiff,
5 versus the State of North Carolina, et al.,
6 Defendants, in the United States District Court
7 for the Middle District of North Carolina, Civil
8 Action Number 1:13-CV-861 and all related matters.
9 Would counsel now please introduce
10 themselves.
11 MS. RIGGS: My name is Allison Riggs from
12 the Southern Coalition for Social Justice on
13 behalf of the League of Women Voters, Plaintiffs.
14 MS. SEAWELL: Emily Seawell, Southern
15 Coalition for Social Justice, also on behalf of
16 League of Women Voters, Plaintiffs.
17 MR. McFARLAND: Ernest McFarland on behalf
18 of the United States.
19 MR. FARR: Tom Farr, Ogletree Deakins, here
20 on behalf of the Defendants.
21 MR. WARREN: I'm Scott Warren, Wake County
22 attorney. I'm here for the witness, Cherie
23 Poucher.
24 THE WITNESS: Cherie Poucher, Director of
25 Wake County Board of Elections.
8
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: And would counsel by
2 phone please introduce themselves.
3 MR. KAUL: I'm Josh Kaul of Perkins Coie on
4 behalf of Duke Intervenor-Plaintiffs.
5 MS. BASCH: Jennifer Basch, Kirkland &
6 Ellis, on behalf of the NAACP.
7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: And would the court
8 reporter please swear in the witness.
9 * * *
10 CHERIE R. POUCHER,
11 having been first duly sworn or affirmed by the
12 Certified Shorthand Reporter to tell the truth,
13 the whole truth and nothing but the truth, testified as
14 follows:
15 EXAMINATION
16 BY MS. RIGGS:
17 Q. Good morning, Ms. Poucher.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. I believe you've been deposed before.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How many times have you been deposed?
22 A. Three.
23 Q. Okay. I won't go through everything. But just to
24 review a few -- few of the ground rules we'll
25 operate by today, if I ask you anything that's
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9
1 unclear to you, please ask me to clarify or
2 restate. If -- if you do answer, though, I'll
3 assume you understood as I asked. Is that okay?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. And especially as we get going, please
6 remember to answer verbally instead of nodding or
7 shaking your head "no." That'll help the court
8 reporter.
9 And it's very easy for us, when we're
10 talking conversationally, to start talking over
11 each other. I'll do my best to make sure you're
12 done speaking before -- before I start asking
13 another question or follow-up. And likewise, if
14 you can try and wait until I'm done asking the
15 question.
16 We also have counsel on the phone, and they
17 can't read your body language, so that makes it a
18 little bit harder. But they'll try and pause
19 before they ask their next question to make sure
20 you're really done. But don't hesitate to say,
21 "Oh, I'm not done," if the person on the phone
22 is -- is still asking questions. Is that okay
23 with you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. We can take a break whenever you need to take a
10
1 break. My only request is that we finish the
2 question pending, so we -- we find out what the
3 answer is before we leave to take a break. Is
4 that okay?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Do you have any other questions?
7 A. No, I do not.
8 Q. Is there any reason you can't testify truthfully
9 and honestly today?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay. Ms. Poucher, what did you do to prepare for
12 this deposition today?
13 A. Nothing.
14 Q. And you were in the deposition of Mr. Sims last
15 week, correct?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. Okay. So you didn't meet with Mr. Warren, your
18 attorney?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. Did you meet with Mr. Farr?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Have you met with anyone at the Attorney General's
23 Office?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Okay. I want to hand you what we're going to mark
11
1 as Exhibit 458.
2 (POUCHER EXHIBIT 458, Third Amended Initial
3 Disclosures, was marked for identification.)
4 BY MS. RIGGS:
5 Q. Ms. Poucher, these are -- have been filed by
6 defendants in this case as their third amended
7 initial disclosures. And if you look on Page 3,
8 at the top, you are listed as a -- a witness.
9 And it says, "Ms. Poucher will have
10 information concerning the oversight and conduct
11 of elections at the county level, including, but
12 not limited to, the 2014 general elections."
13 Did I read that correctly?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So that's mostly why we're taking your deposition
16 today, is we want to understand what information
17 you have and will testify to.
18 Did you consult with Mr. Farr before this
19 document was submitted on February 24th, 2015?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did he tell you that he was intending to call you
22 as a witness in this case?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did he ask you to file -- create a deposition --
25 I'm sorry -- declaration in preparation for this
12
1 case?2 A. No.3 Q. But you did --4 A. 2015?5 Q. 2015?6 A. No.7 Q. Okay. But you did one in 2014?8 A. Correct.9 Q. Okay. We'll talk about that later.
10 Did you confer with Mr. Farr after the11 November 2014 elections?12 A. No.13 Q. Did you confer with anyone at the14 Attorney General's Office?15 A. No.16 Q. Let me --17 Before we get into this in a little bit more18 depth, let me give you what will be Exhibit 459.19 (POUCHER EXHIBIT 459, Attachment 1020 Declaration of Cherie Poucher, was marked for21 identification.)22 BY MS. RIGGS:23 Q. Ms. Poucher, this is your declaration in this case24 that you submitted on June 16th, 2014. Do you25 recognize it?
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13
1 A. Yes, but I'd like to read it first.
2 Q. Absolutely.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You recall drafting this declaration?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Before we talk about that, I just want to ask a
7 little bit more clearly: You didn't talk to
8 Mr. Farr. You didn't talk to anyone at the
9 Attorney General's Office. Did you talk to any
10 defense counsel in this case prior to this
11 deposition?
12 A. No. In fact, I had talked to the county attorney.
13 And if any of those had any questions, they were
14 directed to the county attorney, not me.
15 Q. Okay. And is the same true for after the November
16 2014 election?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So you have already been deposed on this
19 declaration. I don't want to waste anyone's time
20 retreading that. Is there anything about this
21 declaration that's no longer true?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Is there anything about the topics in this
24 declaration that you discussed that you would need
25 to clarify after the 2014 election?
14
1 A. This was take -- so I'm -- I'm not quite sure what
2 you're asking --
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. -- because this was all stated prior to.
5 Q. Right.
6 A. So we have since conducted the 2014 election.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. So I'm not sure what your question is in regards
9 to this.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. Because these answers were pursuant to what the
12 law was -- is.
13 Q. Right. Right. And the law was that
14 preregistration of 16- and 17-year-olds was no
15 longer an option, correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And that was the law in the 2014 election?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Did any experiences that you had in administering
20 the 2014 election lead you to change your mind
21 about anything that you wrote in this declaration?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. Same thing with the out-of-precinct -- you
24 have a section on out-of-precinct voting. Did
25 anything in the conduct of the 2014 election lead
15
1 you to have a difference of opinion than what is
2 stated in Paragraph 5, or want to clarify it in
3 any way?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And then the last section is just really about the
6 injunction, so that's all I wanted to ask on that.
7 You did not review your prior deposition; is
8 that correct?
9 A. No, I did not.
10 Q. Okay. Did you read and sign when you -- right
11 after you took -- had that deposition?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And everything in that deposition was accurate?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. So then I want to go back to 4 -- 458.
16 Ms. Poucher, how long have you been in your role?
17 A. It will be -- I'm in my -- since 1991.
18 Q. Okay. And in this statement, it says you will
19 have information concerning the oversight and
20 conduct of elections at the county level.
21 Are you going to be testifying about the
22 oversight and conduct of elections in any other
23 county besides Wake?
24 A. I don't understand.
25 Q. So this -- this statement isn't limited to Wake
16
1 County, what Mr. Farr put in his disclosures?
2 A. Counties get direction from the state board.
3 Q. Uh-huh.
4 A. Therefore, anything that I testify will be for
5 Wake County. However, it is -- it would be the
6 same procedure for all other counties.
7 Q. Right.
8 So if -- if, you know, Pasquotank County had
9 certain issues in administering the directives of
10 the State Board of Elections, you couldn't testify
11 to that?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. And you couldn't testify to any issues that any
14 other county, besides Wake, may have had with
15 implementing the directives of the State Board of
16 Elections?
17 A. That is correct. The -- I will add one caveat,
18 and that is: If another county called and asked a
19 question, we would usually refer them to the state
20 board. But I would not have sufficient knowledge
21 that I would testify to anything that they called
22 about.
23 Q. Okay. Do you keep a log of calls you receive from
24 other counties along those lines?
25 A. No.
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17
1 Q. Are there certain counties that call you more
2 often?
3 A. No.
4 Q. About how many calls do you get weekly from other
5 counties?
6 A. In relation to?
7 Q. Well, let's -- anything you might testify about
8 from another county. But let's, maybe, go back
9 and focus on the November 2014 election.
10 Did you receive calls from other counties
11 specific to the implementation of House Bill 589
12 provisions in the November 2014 election?
13 A. If I recollect correctly, I would receive calls
14 regarding the number of hours and was Wake County
15 going to request a waiver.
16 Q. Okay. And do you remember who called you about
17 the waivers?
18 A. There were several counties. But that was
19 beginning of January '14, so that would be hard to
20 put a finger on.
21 Q. Okay. Did -- did Wake County seek a waiver?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Before we get further into election
24 administration, generally, and in Wake County in
25 2014, I wanted to ask: Were you consulted on any
18
1 of the provisions of House Bill 589? Did the
2 legislatures -- legislators consult with you?
3 A. They may have asked some questions. I know I
4 dealt with Gerry Cohen, because I -- I would read
5 the bill. And if there was a reference to
6 something that -- if there was a reference to a
7 statute, I would look at that statute, and I would
8 let him know that I think the statute was wrong.
9 Q. If there was a reference to a statute in
10 House Bill 589?
11 A. As it was drafted, yes.
12 Q. Okay. And did you point out to him problems with
13 references to statutes?
14 A. One or two.
15 Q. Which ones were those?
16 A. Oh, I cannot remember. The legislature -- the
17 Legislative Research Commission would call and ask
18 a question. I could not, at this time, remember
19 all the different things it was.
20 Q. Uh-huh.
21 A. A lot of it would have dealt with financial or --
22 was it fiscal -- the fiscal amount.
23 Q. Okay. If we got you a copy of the text of
24 House Bill 589, would that refresh your memory?
25 A. No, because it refers to a lot of different
19
1 statutes. So at the time it was drafted, I'd look
2 at the statute in the draft of the bill, go to the
3 law book and look. And at one time, the stat --
4 the reference was not the correct one that I
5 thought. So I would talk to Mr. Cohen.
6 Q. Did anyone besides Mr. Cohen call you?
7 A. That, I can't remember.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. That would have been sometime in 2013.
10 Q. Did any legislators call you?
11 A. I cannot remember. I am the legislative chair for
12 the directors association. So I did attend a lot
13 of the committee meetings.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. And I have contact with a lot of legislators, but
16 on various type -- I mean, even to this day, being
17 a liaison.
18 Q. Did any legislature, to your -- legislator, to
19 your recollection, ever ask your opinion on the
20 cut -- cutting of a week of early voting from the
21 early voting period?
22 A. I may have discussed that, but I could not tell
23 you with whom.
24 Q. Who would -- can you narrow down who it might have
25 been with?
20
1 A. Any member of the elections committee.
2 Q. Are there people on the elections committee you
3 confer with more regularly than others?
4 A. No. It's -- there are several Wake County
5 legislatives on the committee, and I know others
6 just from the number of years that I've been
7 attending the committee meetings. So I talk
8 freely with -- we know each other.
9 Q. How long have you been the legislative chair for
10 the directors association?
11 A. At least six, seven years.
12 Q. Are you more likely to talk to Wake County
13 representatives than you are other members,
14 generally?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In those discussions, what was your opinion on the
17 cut to early voting that you would have shared
18 with those legislators?
19 A. They had asked for information regarding
20 Wake County. And basically, I explained to them
21 that the -- no matter when the first day of early
22 voting is, we do have a good number of voters
23 vote, and then it slacks off until that following
24 week. And then it continually picks up.
25 And we had -- we had shown them the numbers
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1 of voters in those days. And through some of the
2 elections -- and I can't remember the exact
3 years -- we didn't open the additional sites for
4 the whole time. We would wait until that
5 following weekend. Because that's when there was
6 more interest, and we have to abide by the
7 resources that we get from the commissioners.
8 So basically, Wake County, in most
9 instances, did have about -- the ten days when you
10 opened the additional sites.
11 Q. The -- the County Board of Elections was open the
12 entire early --
13 A. The --
14 Q. -- voting period?
15 A. By statute, the county has to be open the entire
16 time. Correct.
17 Q. And when you said you showed the legislators the
18 numbers about who turned out on what days, in what
19 form would you have shown that to them?
20 A. We have charts, which, I believe, in the subpoena
21 documents that I sent you, it does show the daily
22 totals of early voters, and that would have been
23 what we showed them.
24 Q. That would have been responsive to the subpoena
25 from last year?
22
1 A. The one current.
2 Q. It was just a subpoena for deposition. There was
3 no subpoena for documents.
4 A. I didn't send you a list of documents like that?
5 Q. Nope.
6 A. Oh, I thought I did.
7 MR. FARR: Was there a -- was there a -- a
8 public records request?
9 MS. RIGGS: Not from me.
10 THE WITNESS: No. I had a subpoena.
11 MR. FARR: Okay.
12 BY MS. RIGGS:
13 Q. Okay. We can, at a break, try and figure out who
14 that subpoena was from, because it wasn't from me.
15 A. Scott may remember.
16 Q. Okay. But when you were showing it to the
17 legislators --
18 So about when were these conversations
19 happening?
20 A. This would have been in 2013.
21 Q. Would this have been specifically related to
22 House Bill 589 or an earlier bill?
23 A. If memory serves me correct, 589 came out almost
24 as an omnibus. I'm not really sure on that. I
25 know I was tracking a lot of legislative bills at
23
1 that time, and many of them had different
2 segments. But I think 589 combined a lot of the
3 individual bills. But that, I would have to go
4 back and check.
5 Q. Okay. So you don't remember approximately the
6 month in 2013?
7 A. I don't. I -- I attended almost all of the
8 legislative committee meetings.
9 Q. And to your recollection, was House Bill 589, as
10 the omnibus bill, ever discussed in the House
11 Elections Committee?
12 A. That, I can't remember. That's why I said I think
13 that was towards the end of the session.
14 Q. Okay. Did you provide members of the legislature
15 with these documents that you're talking about,
16 these charts?
17 A. I don't believe so.
18 Q. You --
19 A. I think I had a copy that I could just say, as you
20 will note, you had this much. Then you had a line
21 down here. And then that last seven to ten days,
22 it just kept going up.
23 Q. Okay. So where were these conversations
24 happening --
25 A. In --
24
1 Q. -- when you were showing them these charts?
2 A. In the committee room.
3 Q. Okay. Did this --
4 Was this just one meeting, one incident
5 where you were showing them these charts, or did
6 it happen multiple times?
7 A. There was --
8 If memory serves me correct, there was a
9 bill in regards to early voting. So it would have
10 been a committee meeting regarding that.
11 Q. Okay. Were you asked your opinion or asked for
12 input on the repeal of same-day registration by
13 any legislators?
14 A. I was asked, I believe, of -- I guess it would
15 have been my opinion.
16 Q. Who asked you?
17 A. That, I -- it was so many years ago, I do not
18 remember.
19 Q. Was it a legislator, a proponent of
20 House Bill 589?
21 A. Both.
22 Q. Both.
23 A. And for the Wake County delegation, many times I
24 would talk to -- Representative Grier Martin would
25 call me, or I would see him. I believe he was on
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1 the committee. At that --
2 I cannot remember when Deborah Ross retired.
3 She would ask me questions. Representative Stam.
4 Representative Dollar.
5 As I said, I have a very good relationship
6 with Wake County, the delegation.
7 For same-day registration, the concern was
8 the fact that by the time the mail verification
9 was complete, the election had already been
10 certified, and it would be after the certification
11 that we were getting a lot of undeliverable mail
12 from those that had registered same-day.
13 Q. What is "a lot"?
14 A. Thousands.
15 Q. Thousands? Do you have documentation about this?
16 A. That would all be in the system that you would
17 have to get from SEMS through the state board.
18 All of that is automatic.
19 We code in -- the envelope has the bar code
20 on it. When an envelope is returned
21 undeliverable, we scan it. And then the system
22 tracks pursuant to NVRA.
23 If they're mailed a second card and that
24 comes back, that's scanned in. Then, generally,
25 that person would be denied; however, they had
26
1 voted, so the system made them inactive.
2 But we do -- the counties do nothing in
3 regards to that. That is all automatic through
4 the state software.
5 Q. So you're saying that thousands of voter
6 registration applications that -- ended up being
7 inactive rather than denied?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. How many thousands?
10 A. That's what I said. I -- we had probably -- in
11 2012, we probably had over 14,000 that registered,
12 but I could not say how many went inactive.
13 And it would -- it -- you're -- you're
14 saying "application," but it would be the voter
15 verification that was mailed. We had to -- we had
16 to mail a voter verification within two days.
17 Q. Right.
18 A. We did that nightly.
19 Q. But what -- what ends up being denied is that
20 voter's application for registration, right?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Right.
23 The 14,000 number that you're using, is that
24 just same-day registrations or all registrations
25 in 2012?
27
1 A. Same-day.
2 Q. How many total registrations did you have, do you
3 recall?
4 A. No. I know, generally, before a presidential
5 election, we can get in process over 40,000 new
6 registrations.
7 Q. In a presidential election?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you get a rush of applications at the close of
10 books?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you ever get second verification mailings
13 returned after the end of canvass from regular
14 registrations?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So when you were talking to legislators about
17 same-day registration, you were raising these
18 concerns with them?
19 A. They asked me questions, and I answered.
20 Q. Okay. Did --
21 Again, trying to pin down the time in which
22 this happened, can you -- would it have been
23 before the omnibus House Bill 589 was released?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Months before?
28
1 A. I don't think that bill was enacted until towards
2 the end of the session. And so it probably would
3 have been during the winter, early spring.
4 Q. Okay. So January, February 2013?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is that what you mean by "winter" --
7 A. That's what I'm thinking.
8 Q. Okay. Did any of the legislators ask -- ask you
9 for feedback on how voters seemed to think about
10 same-day registration?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you share with them that it acted as a
13 failsafe in some situations?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Does --
16 Did same-day registration act as a failsafe
17 in some situations?
18 A. I don't know what you mean by "failsafe."
19 Q. Okay. So if a -- if a voter went to DMV and there
20 was some misstep in the registration process
21 there, either on the voter's part or the DMV's
22 part, and the -- the registration never got
23 entered or conveyed, what I mean by "failsafe" is
24 the voter could then go to early voting. And
25 regardless of what had happened at that DMV
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1 interaction, they could register there?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So that's what I mean by "failsafe."
4 Do you --
5 And that could happen in other situations,
6 right? So a person could submit a voter
7 registration application that just gets lost in
8 the mail?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And if that happens with SDR, they can -- there's
11 no damage. They can register to vote during early
12 voting, right?
13 A. You -- you would use the term "damage."
14 Q. They -- they will get to vote? I'm sorry.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Without same-day registration, those people, if
17 they show up during early voting, they're just out
18 of luck?
19 A. They would be allowed to vote a provisional
20 ballot. We would be able to research it to see if
21 at any time during the process they had submitted
22 an application. Even if it had been incomplete
23 and we had sent them a letter indicating their
24 application was incomplete, then that vote would
25 have counted, because they had made an attempt.
30
1 Q. So if a voter had sent in a voter registration
2 application and the U.S. Postal Service just lost
3 it, you wouldn't have any record of that during
4 your research, right?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And so that voter's provisional ballot would be
7 denied?
8 A. That is a board decision. Yes.
9 Q. You wouldn't recommend that it be counted, to the
10 board?
11 A. We really --
12 It's not so much a recommendation as it is
13 the list of -- of policies that the board follows
14 in regards to what to count -- what they -- what
15 they would deny, what they would approve, what
16 they would partially.
17 Q. But your -- in your experience, that is not a
18 situation where the provisional ballot would be
19 approved?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. And --
22 So you would agree with me, then, that
23 same-day registration acted as a failsafe in
24 situations like the two we just discussed?
25 MR. FARR: Objection to the form for the
31
1 term "failsafe."2 THE WITNESS: I would not use the word3 "failsafe."4 BY MS. RIGGS:5 Q. Why not?6 A. A voter has all but 25 days before an election to7 register to vote and get through the process.8 They're still allowed to vote a provisional9 ballot. That's what I consider a failsafe.
10 Q. Even if it doesn't count?11 A. That is not my decision, whether it would count.12 Q. But you know there are provisionals that don't13 count because -- provisionals that were submitted14 because of registration issues?15 A. That's according to the law. Correct.16 Q. So you would not call a situation which a voter17 mailed in a voter registration application, it18 gets lost, and you have no record of it -- you19 wouldn't view same-day registration as acting as a20 failsafe for those voters?21 MR. FARR: Objection to the form.22 Hypothetical.23 THE WITNESS: The voter has the24 opportunity, number one, to call our office and,25 number two, to look online for the voter search if
32
1 they have not received a voter card in a timely
2 manner.
3 So a lot of what you are referring to, the
4 voter would be able to check beforehand. The
5 County Boards of Elections cannot be held
6 accountable for the United States Post Office.
7 BY MS. RIGGS:
8 Q. Okay. We're going to talk more about same-day
9 registration later, but I -- I want to go back to
10 the legislative process of House Bill 589.
11 Did any of the legislators during --
12 Did any legislators during 2014 ask for your
13 opinion on the elimination of the counting of
14 out-of-precinct provisional ballots?
15 A. In 2014?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. State board did.
18 Q. When did the state board ask?
19 A. We -- I believe in one -- it may have been in a
20 municipal election, and an out-of-precinct vote --
21 vote was not counted or not approved by my board.
22 And in 2014 the state board let the counties know
23 that -- under certain circumstances, that
24 out-of-precinct -- if it was an unreported move,
25 the voter went to their old precinct but didn't
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1 want to go to the new, that they would be allowed
2 to vote a provisional in their old, and everything
3 they were entitled to vote would count. So that
4 was the discussion at that time.
5 I believe it was a -- our board took it
6 literally that out of precinct was out of
7 precinct. But if you went to your old precinct
8 and said, "I moved," that you had -- had the
9 option of getting an Election Day transfer to your
10 new, where you could go to your new precinct to
11 vote or the Board of Elections to vote. But if
12 you voted at that precinct that day, that is out
13 of precinct, because you didn't live there
14 anymore. And that's how my board interpreted it.
15 Q. And this was right after the House Bill 589 had
16 passed, that municipal election right after?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Okay. So the clarification was that you -- your
19 board needed to count unreported moves and
20 distinguish out-of -- unreported moves from
21 out-of-precinct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Okay. During 20 -- I think I may have asked this
24 wrong earlier. During 2013, did any legislators
25 ask you about your opinion on the elimination of
34
1 out-of -- the counting of out-of-precinct
2 provisional ballots?
3 A. Not that I can recall.
4 Q. During 2013, did any legislators ask you for your
5 opinion on changing the laws related to who can
6 serve as poll observers?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did they ever ask your opinion on the addition of
9 at-large poll observers in the county?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did they ask your opinion on the repeal of
12 preregistration for 16- and 17-year-olds?
13 A. That might have come up in the committee meeting.
14 Q. And when you say "came up in a committee meeting,"
15 you mean you may have had discussions on the floor
16 of the committee hearing room?
17 A. Generally, I would talk to them -- either -- they
18 would talk to me beforehand. For the 16- and
19 17-year-olds, I explained the program that Wake
20 County -- and I know some other counties have it,
21 too, but I could not name the counties.
22 We have high school registration drives. We
23 work with all the high schools in the county. And
24 we have a representative from our office. Each
25 school has a representative, and they go
35
1 through -- they are the ones that determine who is
2 going to be 18 by the next election and that they
3 are qualified to vote, which -- meaning, they're a
4 citizen. And they conduct the voter registration
5 drive for the high school.
6 Whatever school has the highest percentage
7 of students register that are eligible is
8 recognized as -- at their graduation.
9 In fact, right now, we just finished --
10 we're still getting some applications in. But
11 from last week, I believe we had received over
12 900.
13 Q. And this was something you were telling
14 legislators in 2013?
15 A. For -- yes. We've done it for years, and we
16 explained what we do for those that are going to
17 be 18.
18 Q. Okay. Does the fact that you conduct high school
19 registration drives like that impact whether you
20 think preregistration should be offered or not?
21 A. That would be my opinion.
22 Q. What -- so what is your opinion?
23 A. I think getting someone registered right before
24 they are allowed to vote rather than two years
25 before is more conducive to their voting in the
36
1 next election.
2 Q. Is that true across the boards or just for young
3 voters?
4 A. I don't -- just for young voters?
5 Q. Well, when I say "young voters," in this context
6 I'm talking about 17- and 18-year-olds.
7 A. For any -- any voter who will be 18 by the next
8 election. So if it is before a primary, then that
9 person -- that voter -- or that -- the person
10 registering would be 17, but would be 18 by
11 November.
12 Q. Right. I understand.
13 I meant, your comment that getting someone
14 registered right before an election is more
15 conducive to them voting than registering them two
16 years back, is that true across the board?
17 A. That is true for the young -- for the 18s.
18 Q. Why -- why do you think that's true for young
19 voters?
20 A. First-time voting should be very important.
21 Q. And what did you mean when you said "more
22 conducive to voting"?
23 A. More inclined to be --
24 Once you get your voter card, if there's an
25 election coming up, I think the 18-year-old would
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1 be more inclined to vote.
2 Q. Okay. You'd agree with me that first-time voters
3 aren't limited to 18-year-olds, correct?
4 A. Agewise?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Anyone of any age could be a first-time voter?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you think that for them getting their
10 registration card right before the election and
11 registering right before the election might also
12 be more conducive to voting?
13 A. No, I don't. And I'll tell you the difference.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. You have someone who has never voted before.
16 Q. Uh-huh.
17 A. And the difference between being 16 and 18,
18 waiting two years or waiting for the next
19 election. Whereas, if someone -- most of the
20 people that --
21 Because being in Wake County and the volume
22 that we have, the people that are registering have
23 already voted in other jurisdictions.
24 Q. Always?
25 A. There's a good -- yes. They come here from
38
1 another state. They get their driver's license.
2 And so -- I mean, we get a very large number from
3 DMV, which Mr. Sims mentioned. And so it is
4 important for them, when they move to a new
5 jurisdiction, that they register to vote. They're
6 used to it.
7 A 16-year-old or 17-year-old many times --
8 and I cannot give you numbers -- graduates, goes
9 to college. There is a rally. They register
10 there, completely forgetting that they had
11 registered in their county of residence. But that
12 18-year-old, who registered right before the
13 election, votes.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. Not all the time.
16 Q. So what is the problem -- if a voter --
17 If a young voter goes to college and
18 considers that his residency and signs up to
19 register to vote at a rally, forgetting that he,
20 in high school, or when he got his driver's
21 license, had preregistered in his parents' county,
22 what's the problem with that?
23 A. Not so much -- and I wouldn't say "a problem." It
24 is the resources that have gone up until that
25 time. Because any application that comes into a
39
1 county board has to be processed. There is a
2 notice sent, because you have to let them know it
3 is received. It is held by the state board until
4 that person's 18th birthday. Then it is
5 transferred back into our system where it is
6 reviewed and ID card is mailed.
7 So you have that process, and we've
8 completed that. After that's done, they go to a
9 rally whenever or wherever they are at school, and
10 they do that. Then part of that comes back to us,
11 so it has to all be removed.
12 And many times, if -- if they have forgotten
13 that they registered when they were 16 and they
14 register somewhere else, that -- that student at
15 18 stays on our registration records, because they
16 didn't state they should be removed from Wake
17 County.
18 Q. So I thought the state board did that somewhat
19 automatically.
20 A. Automatically, but not constantly. It's -- you
21 have someone here that we've processed and gone
22 through, but it could be six months later that
23 they register at school. And then it will take a
24 while that's done, and that's done -- and when
25 they do their duplicate check, that's when that
40
1 would come out.
2 Q. To the best of your understanding, how often does
3 the State Board of Elections do its duplicate
4 check?
5 A. That, I could not give you an answer to.
6 Q. But you've perceived that there's a lag? I mean,
7 it's not --
8 A. It would be a short lag, but there's still a lag,
9 yes. I do not know how long.
10 Q. So aside from the State Board of Elections holding
11 the preregistration in queue, as far as county
12 board resources, there's not anything different
13 between what you do for a preregistration and what
14 you do for any regular registration, correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Okay. So going back to the legislative process,
17 then, in 2013, did any legislator ever ask for
18 your opinion on requiring a photo ID for voting?
19 A. That, I don't remember.
20 Q. Would you have remembered if they had asked?
21 A. I don't think it was an opinion. I think it was a
22 question.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. And I can remember my answer.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 A. The majority of telephone calls on Election Day
2 were concerned that "This is the first state I've
3 ever voted in where I did not have to show ID."
4 And I would have told them that.
5 Q. Are you aware how many states in the country
6 require picture ID in order to vote?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Would you be surprised if it's not a majority?
9 A. I was only concerned with North Carolina and what
10 the voters' phone calls were coming in. We have a
11 great influx of people from across the country,
12 and those were the calls we -- we would get.
13 Q. Did you keep logs of those calls?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Who would have taken those calls besides you?
16 A. Anyone in the office.
17 Q. So --
18 A. We have -- we have our lines set up on Election
19 Day for a group of staff that takes calls from our
20 precincts and another that take calls from the
21 public.
22 Q. If you didn't log those calls, how do you know
23 that a majority of them related to photo ID?
24 A. Those would be the ones that we would have a
25 roundtable discussion after the election, what
42
1 were most of the calls about. Also, a lot of
2 letters to the editor.
3 Q. When you say "majority," can you give me a number
4 with -- associated with that?
5 A. No.
6 Q. How many calls do you normally get on Election
7 Day?
8 A. Probably close to 1,000. Many of them asking
9 where they go to vote.
10 Q. So are you including those in your calculations
11 when you say most of them have to do with ID?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. So on Election Day, if you get 1,000 calls,
14 over 500 of them are --
15 A. I'm not going to give a number, because I would be
16 pulling a number out of a hat.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. Okay. In our roundtable discussion afterwards,
19 that was one of the -- let's call it one of the
20 "items" that continually came up from voters:
21 "Ooh, this is the first time I voted in North
22 Carolina, and I -- I didn't even have to show any
23 form of identification."
24 Q. Okay. So you're not going to quantify it, but
25 you're going to stick with majority?
43
1 A. What I just said is quantifying.
2 Q. What you just said is quantified?
3 A. That's -- yes. That the calls that came in, and
4 from the discussions of -- of all of our staff,
5 that was one of the highest number of comments
6 from voters. I'll use it as "highest number."
7 Q. That's different than "majority," though?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How does asking for which precinct that voters
10 need to go to rank in the calls?
11 A. Not as high.
12 Q. When you say "letters to the editor," what -- what
13 newspapers are you talking about?
14 A. The only ones that I have access to here that I
15 read, and that would be the "N&O."
16 Q. Okay. And you recall seeing lots of -- or I don't
17 want to put words in your mouth.
18 You recall seeing letters to the editor
19 about ID?
20 A. After -- almost after every election, correct.
21 Q. And how did seeing those letters to the editor
22 affect your opinion on whether or not the state
23 should have an ID requirement?
24 A. I really don't give opinions. Whatever the law is
25 determined to be is what I have to follow.
44
1 Q. Okay. Let's see. So you were track -- oh.
2 So I asked you about, in 2013, being asked
3 about an ID requirement. What about in 2011? Did
4 any legislators ask you?
5 A. That, I would have no idea.
6 Q. Okay. And do you remember if you answered
7 questions --
8 You recall that the ID requirement changed
9 from a prior version of House Bill 589 to the
10 omnibus version of House Bill 589?
11 A. I could not state exactly what. I believe there
12 was a change.
13 Q. Okay. Do you remember if you were asked questions
14 or answered questions before that change?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So no one brought to you the previous ID
17 requirement and said, "Ms. Poucher, is this
18 inadequate?"
19 A. No. That --
20 Q. Okay. I am going to hand you an exhibit that we
21 are going to mark 460.
22 (POUCHER EXHIBIT 460, E-mails dated 4/4/13,
23 Subject: Election bills, was marked for
24 identification.)
25 MS. RIGGS: For the folks on the phone,
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45
1 the -- the Bates at the bottom is actually
2 Control -- CTRL00035929.
3 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
4 BY MS. RIGGS:
5 Q. Ms. Poucher, do you recall this e-mail thread?
6 A. I don't recall it, but it's between
7 General Counsel Don Wright and myself.
8 Q. Do you have any reason to suspect this isn't an
9 e-mail exchange you had with Mr. Wright?
10 A. No.
11 Q. So you had mentioned you tracked election-related
12 legislative bills; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you do that for the directors association?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Okay. And you would share it with them?
17 A. What I do, and I still do it to this day, is I
18 refer to it as a "legislative tracker."
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Every time an election-related bill is filed, I
21 write the bill number, the name of the bill, date
22 it was filed, and then the committee that it was
23 assigned to. And then as it progresses, I will
24 update the tracker.
25 I get the legislative bulletin every day.
46
1 And Mr. Wright was doing the same thing for the
2 state board. So we would exchange our trackers to
3 make sure each of us had all of the necessary --
4 we had not missed any of the bills filed.
5 Q. Okay. So between you and him, you would have seen
6 every election-related bill that got filed?
7 A. I would have recorded it. I don't read them all.
8 Q. Okay. So the tracker doesn't provide any summary.
9 It's just what you said?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Okay. In the second e-mail down, it's an e-mail
12 from you to Mr. Wright that says, "We'll talk when
13 you get back. Some of the bills filed this past
14 week are unreal, exclamation point."
15 Did I read that correctly?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Which bills were you referring to?
18 A. Whatever bills were filed that week. I -- this is
19 a week -- it would have been spring break. And I
20 can tell that from the date. I always leave the
21 first week of April.
22 Q. Uh-huh.
23 A. And so all I would have been able to see on my
24 BlackBerry is the name of a bill. So basically --
25 and I think if you look --
47
1 When you start getting close to crossover,
2 you have a flurry of bills filed. And so that
3 would be -- "Some of the bills filed this week are
4 unreal." There's so many. And I know coming back
5 from Florida this past year, I think there were,
6 like, 15, 20 election bills filed in a few days,
7 because they're trying to move them through. So
8 that's what I would have been referring to.
9 Q. So "Some of the bills filed this past week are
10 unreal" refers only to the number of bills filed?
11 A. Probably some of the names, also. I didn't --
12 it -- it's my little BlackBerry, so I didn't read
13 the bills. And I couldn't tell you right now what
14 the titles were.
15 Q. So you're saying those would have been bills filed
16 between April 1st and April 4th, the Monday to
17 that Thursday?
18 A. Or Friday to Thursday.
19 Q. Okay. So whatever that Friday was before April
20 1st?
21 A. (Nods head.)
22 Q. What kind of titles would you have found to be,
23 quote, unquote, "unreal"?
24 A. There is no way I could remember that right now.
25 I'm sorry.
48
1 Q. Okay. So what -- probably what we're going to do
2 is look up what was filed that week and get back
3 to that question later.
4 A. And it could just be the number.
5 Q. "Some of the bills filed this past week are
6 unreal" just relates to the number?
7 A. We're talking 2013.
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Two -- over two years ago. So I have no
10 recollection right now of any of those bills.
11 Q. If it had been just the sheer number, why wouldn't
12 you have just said, "There were a lot of bills
13 filed this week"?
14 A. Probably because I was down on a vacation,
15 thinking ahead of -- if there were any changes
16 that would have to be implemented.
17 Q. Have you ever had a reaction to a bill filed that
18 is, "Wow, why are they doing this?"
19 A. I think most people would on some or the other,
20 but I couldn't remember exactly what.
21 MS. RIGGS: Okay. All righty.
22 Okay. I think that that probably finishes
23 up the legislative-process discussion I want to
24 have. Do you guys want to take a break or get
25 going into the next section?
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49
1 MR. FARR: Let's take a short break.
2 MS. RIGGS: Okay.
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off record at 10:10 a.m.
4 * * *
5 (Whereupon, there was a recess in the
6 proceedings from 10:10 a.m. to 10:23 a.m.)
7 * * *
8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at 10:23 a.m.
9 BY MS. RIGGS:
10 Q. Ms. Poucher, were you ever asked by any
11 legislators about the effect a voter ID
12 requirement would have on preventing voter fraud?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Were you ever asked by the media about what a
15 voter ID requirement -- what effect it would have
16 on voter fraud?
17 A. A -- it's WTVD. A reporter came in and asked the
18 question of, "What do you think for voter ID?"
19 My comment was -- and I know the reporter
20 well -- "What did you have to do before you got in
21 my office?"
22 And he had to show a photo ID and sign in.
23 So he kind of chuckled.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. I said, "I make no comment."
50
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. "I only" -- "I only execute the laws."
3 Q. Did the State Board of Elections ever ask you for
4 your opinion on how an ID requirement would impact
5 potential voter fraud?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Would an ID requirement prevent double voting?
8 A. I would give no opinion on that.
9 Q. Okay. Why not?
10 A. I don't think that's something that I could just
11 pull out of the hat and answer.
12 Q. Okay. I am going to hand you an exhibit that we
13 are going to mark as 461.
14 MS. RIGGS: And I apologize. This is one
15 where I only have one copy for you guys to share.
16 (POUCHER EXHIBIT 461, Article titled NC
17 Voters Charged After Voting Twice in 2008, was
18 marked for identification.)
19 MS. RIGGS: Josh, this is a news article
20 from online. You wouldn't have a copy. Sorry.
21 MR. KAUL: That's all right. Thanks.
22 BY MS. RIGGS:
23 Q. Ms. Poucher, this is from 2011, and it's a news
24 article in which you're referenced. And the
25 reference to you -- this is about some double --
51
1 potential double voting in 2008. And it says,
2 "Wake Elections Director Cherie Poucher said the
3 proposed voter ID law would have made no
4 difference in this case. Those arrested voted
5 twice using their real names."
6 Do you --
7 First, do you remember this incident back in
8 2011?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Do you remember talking to a reporter about this
11 incident?
12 A. I don't remember talking to a reporter, but I
13 remember the incident.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. Because we did the research on it.
16 Q. Do you believe you were misquoted in this article
17 or -- I know you weren't actually quoted. Do
18 you --
19 Is what you told the reporter misrepresented
20 in the article?
21 A. The circumstances of this case, it would have made
22 no difference, because they had photo ID. Or they
23 had ID, I should say. They signed their name.
24 They vote --
25 And -- and I -- I remember these, because it
52
1 was -- we do a reconciliation after every
2 election. And when we scanned in vote history, we
3 got an -- from Election Day, we got an error
4 message that the person had already voted.
5 So we looked into the record. The person
6 had voted the very last day of early voting and
7 early on Election Day. And at that time, the
8 precinct officials would not have had sufficient
9 time to record all of the voters who had voted
10 that last Saturday.
11 We've since then have changed our
12 procedures, and we don't print the poll books
13 until early voting ends. But at that time, any --
14 any person that voted early Saturday went out in a
15 list to our officials the Tuesday morning. So
16 there was no record in the precinct that they had
17 voted until that list came.
18 And in a 2008 election, there would have
19 been -- I think we had, probably -- and I'm
20 guessing -- 40,000 absentee voters, many of whom
21 were already marked. But if you looked at the
22 number that voted the last day of early voting,
23 those would have had to have been manually marked
24 in the poll book, and those go out to the precinct
25 officials Tuesday morning.
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53
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. That's why I remember this. That's why -- and, in
3 fact, the -- the procedure -- our procedures
4 changed, so we could record every -- everyone who
5 voted early on a Saturday would be marked as voted
6 by the time the polls opened Tuesday.
7 Q. Okay. So you said --
8 So in 2008 there was not a photo ID
9 requirement for voting, correct?
10 A. Right. It was a signature.
11 Q. Right.
12 So you said these people had ID. How do you
13 know they had ID?
14 A. I said that -- the proposed photo ID. I -- I
15 misspoke there.
16 Q. Oh.
17 A. I'm thinking sign -- signature.
18 Q. Okay. So the -- the voters had to sign?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And if they had shown --
21 So you don't know if they had ID or not?
22 A. No. They would have been asked.
23 Q. Right.
24 But even if they had -- they used the same
25 name in early voting as they did -- they used
54
1 their real name in both early voting and on2 Election Day --3 A. Correct.4 Q. -- how would a photo ID requirement stop that5 situation from happening in the future?6 A. That, in itself -- it -- any type of ID7 wouldn't --8 Q. Wouldn't?9 A. -- including signature, as -- as the law was at
10 that time.11 Q. Okay.12 A. Because they signed their name --13 Q. Right.14 A. -- in both places.15 So whatever the law was at that time, that's16 what I'm saying. And it probably -- if they had17 gone and voted early on Friday, the book would18 have been marked Monday or Tuesday when their19 record would have already said "absentee."20 Q. Right. But had House Bill 589 been in -- in21 effect then, the ID requirement itself wouldn't22 have stopped this alleged double voting?23 MR. FARR: Objection to the form.24 THE WITNESS: They still would have been25 accused of voting twice.
55
1 BY MS. RIGGS:
2 Q. Right. But it wouldn't have stopped them?
3 A. It would be one other thing to think about. I
4 think I may think twice.
5 Q. Well, it's -- it -- that's -- let me get -- I'll
6 get to that in a second.
7 A -- a poll worker would have no way of
8 knowing --
9 If the poll book hasn't been updated, the
10 poll worker wouldn't have known to turn that voter
11 away, because they were showing their ID, right?
12 A. Poll worker is instructed to never turn a voter
13 away. So they would not have known, but they do
14 not turn a voter away. They send them to the help
15 table.
16 Q. Okay. The -- the ID --
17 The ID law proposed in 2011 would not have
18 made any difference in this situation where a
19 voter was using his real name during early voting
20 and on Election Day, correct?
21 A. I can't stop a voter from doing that.
22 Q. Well, it's a "yes" or "no" question.
23 What you said was that the proposed voter ID
24 in 2011 wouldn't have made no difference in this
25 case, correct?
56
1 A. It would not have stopped these people from
2 casting two ballots.
3 Q. Okay. Great.
4 And the --
5 Now, when you were talking about thinking
6 twice, these voters were using their real names
7 both times, correct?
8 A. That's what our records indicated, yes.
9 Q. Okay. So there is evidence of what they tried to
10 do, because they used their real names?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. They were not trying to impersonate anyone?
13 A. The signatures on our -- on their voter forms and
14 the signatures on their application, voter
15 registration application, were the same. Were
16 they that person? I don't know.
17 Q. Did you compare the signature on the early voting
18 vote versus the Election Day vote?
19 A. Yes. And also with the voter registration
20 application.
21 Q. Did they all match?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So the signature requirement didn't make the voter
24 think twice either?
25 A. Correct.
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57
1 Q. So you changed procedures after this election,
2 right, you told me?
3 A. We changed when we printed our poll books, yes.
4 Q. Okay. So this situation couldn't happen again
5 today; is that right?
6 A. I would not say "couldn't happen," because you
7 never know what could happen.
8 Q. You took steps, though, to make sure the
9 likelihood of this happening was reduced?
10 A. We took steps to make sure we had as many absentee
11 voters listed, yes.
12 Q. Okay. So if the poll book was printed after these
13 folks had voted on Friday or Saturday, whenever it
14 was, and the Election Day worker has that poll
15 book in front of them, what do they say to the
16 voter who shows up who's already listed as voting
17 absentee?
18 A. "The Board of Elections' records indicate that you
19 have already voted. You're going to have to --
20 we're -- we're referring you to the help table.
21 And the official will call the Board of Elections,
22 and we will see how it can be worked out."
23 Our office would be called. We would,
24 generally, allow that person to vote a provisional
25 ballot. At the same time, we are telling them to
58
1 put that authorization to vote inside the
2 provisional envelope.
3 Then our staff would go and pull that
4 voter's application from the One-Stop, because --
5 by day and then go from there.
6 But we would let that person vote. It would
7 vote provisionally and give us chance -- the
8 chance to research, when that envelope came back,
9 if the two signatures matched.
10 Q. Okay. And so that would catch folks both who used
11 One-Stop absentee and people whose absentee
12 ballots had already been returned?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. You still do your -- that reconciliation process,
15 though, correct?
16 A. Oh, yes.
17 Q. So there's more than one mechanism for ensuring
18 that someone doesn't cast two votes?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Okay. Now I want to talk about the November 2014
21 election. Did you have long lines during early
22 voting in the November 2014 election?
23 MR. FARR: Objection to the term "long
24 lines."
25 THE WITNESS: And I would ask that you
59
1 define "a long line."
2 BY MS. RIGGS:
3 Q. Okay. Well, let me first ask you: If you had to
4 define the word, how would you define "a long
5 line"?
6 A. I don't.
7 Q. Okay. What about "a long wait"?
8 A. What -- and I think you would have gleaned this
9 from what Mr. Sims said last week. Our priority
10 is to efficiently, accurately get the voter
11 through the voting enclosure to vote. We have
12 large facilities that can maximize the number of
13 voters voting at any given time.
14 As I've stated to you before, the very first
15 day of early voting is busy, and then it kind of
16 slacks off. It increases on Friday, and on
17 Saturday is when a large number of people come to
18 vote.
19 We don't take reservations. So basically,
20 if a line forms, it is because a large number of
21 people came to vote at the same time. That was
22 their choice.
23 Q. Do you have, in your mind, a time in which -- a
24 time which you consider unreasonable for waiting
25 to vote?
60
1 A. No.
2 Q. So if -- I'm sorry. You were wanting to --
3 A. We will process voters every day until the last
4 voter has voted. We stop the line at the correct
5 time. And everyone gets to vote, no matter how
6 long it takes.
7 Q. Do you get complaints when voters have to wait in
8 excess of 30 minutes?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you get complaints when voters have to wait in
11 excess of an hour?
12 A. We did not -- not this last election, no.
13 At each one of the sites, we have different
14 staff members out. And what we have really
15 found -- and this is not any kind of scientific
16 survey, but -- "Well, gee, wish you had come
17 Wednesday. You could have come right in."
18 We get a rapport with them, you know: "The
19 line is moving. We're going to get you in and
20 out. I heard there -- you know, you can go down
21 to the Board of Elections office. Their line
22 isn't as long."
23 But -- okay. You can tell me to -- not to
24 say this. I went to Orlando, to Universal last
25 month. It was my choice. You go to one of the
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61
1 big rides, and there was a 60- to 90-minute wait.
2 It was my choice. Do I want to wait, or do I want
3 to come back? That's, many times, how you can
4 view early voting.
5 If you wait until the last day, that is
6 going to be the highest voting day. That is a
7 voter's choice. Because you have absentee by mail
8 for 60 days. And on Election Day, you can walk
9 right into your precinct. But if you want to vote
10 early, every single Saturday is going to be -- the
11 last Saturday is going to be the busiest day. You
12 can't --
13 We had 31 peo -- vote workers in a site.
14 You can't fit any more in. But when you look at
15 the number of people that we did vote, that's what
16 it's all about. We had a large number of people
17 come to vote on the last day, and that's what we
18 put on elections for. And they were processed
19 efficiently.
20 Q. Am I right, that we're talking about early voting
21 right now --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- to be specific? Okay.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And so, you know, going to ride the Hulk ride at
62
1 Universal Studio --2 A. Uh-huh.3 Q. -- is a choice?4 A. Yeah.5 Q. And going to vote during early voting on a6 Saturday is a choice?7 A. Yes.8 Q. Is --9 Do you find those two situations analogous?
10 A. I don't know what you mean by that. I'm just11 saying people have choices.12 Q. Okay. What about on election -- well, let me --13 Before we move off of early voting, did you14 receive any complaints about wait times during15 early voting?16 A. No. The very -- well, by the second day at17 Chavis, we rearranged the outside for curbside18 voting because of the large number of curbside19 voters.20 So I worked with the groups that were there.21 I usually am there overseeing it. And for that22 area, we assigned -- we started assign --23 assigning numbers to the vehicles as they came in.24 And I believe -- and -- and just to give you an25 idea, that last Saturday, I believe we had like
63
1 350 curbside voters just at Chavis.
2 So we saw that we could rearrange part of
3 our curbside and increase it, to avoid a line
4 there. Inside, you can't. Because you're maxed
5 out with equipment, laptops, voting booths. We
6 had, I think, 30 voting booths. We added a second
7 machine to count, because that first day we
8 noticed -- the ballot was very long. It -- it
9 takes a while to go through, for the tabulator to
10 read. So to avoid a line there, we put in a
11 second M100. But we were looking -- as I said,
12 the efficiency inside is our priority.
13 Q. Okay. So curbside at Chavis was the only
14 complaint you got about wait times during early
15 voting?
16 A. That was -- I said, it wasn't a complaint. We
17 had -- we -- we noticed something. And some of
18 the various organizations said, "Let's see what we
19 can do."
20 And I said, "Yes, let's."
21 And at the very end, they came up and said,
22 "Fantastic. Thank you."
23 Q. Okay. So you didn't receive any complaints about
24 wait times during early voting?
25 A. No.
64
1 Q. Would you have heard if there were complaints?
2 A. Yes. The complaints did not come to me or the
3 staff.
4 Q. Okay. There were no complaints about parking
5 facilities at any early voting sites?
6 "Parking facilities" is a bad word. Strike
7 that.
8 Parking accommodations?
9 A. We used community centers, churches. We have
10 large parking lots. I do not feel parking was an
11 issue.
12 Q. Well -- okay. So that wasn't my question, though.
13 Did you receive any complaints?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. So then I want to hand you another exhibit
16 that we're going to mark as Exhibit 462.
17 (POUCHER EXHIBIT 462, Article titled Voters
18 Wait in Long Lines on Last Day of Early Voting,
19 was marked for identification.)
20 MS. RIGGS: My apologies. I only have one.
21 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
22 MS. RIGGS: For the folks on the phone,
23 this is a news article with the title "Voters Wait
24 in Long Lines on Last Day of Early Voting," but
25 you wouldn't have a copy of it. Sorry.
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65
1 BY MS. RIGGS:
2 Q. Do you recall seeing this news article?
3 A. Uh-huh. Yes.
4 Q. I think -- well, I guess -- so you --
5 Despite long -- wait in long lines being in
6 the news around the time of the election, you
7 didn't receive any complaints about long waits?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Let's pivot to Election Day then. Did you receive
10 complaints -- well, did you receive complaints
11 about long wait times on Election Day?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Would you have received them if they had come in?
14 Or --
15 A. I would --
16 Q. -- I'm sorry. Strike that.
17 Would you have known about them if they had
18 come in?
19 A. I would have been made aware of them.
20 Q. Okay. And I think this is clear from what we
21 talked about with regard to early voting, but you
22 wouldn't consider a 60-minute wait a -- a long
23 wait?
24 A. Let me explain that. One of our precinct
25 officials -- and I do not remember what
66
1 precinct -- called when they arrived at 5:45 a.m.
2 to set up and said, "There are over a hundred
3 people outside waiting in line." Polls open at
4 6:30. They're already going to wait 45 minutes.
5 The only other time that you're going to
6 have a large number of people come to vote is
7 generally after work, and the same goes through --
8 same situation.
9 We -- we look at the number of voters in a
10 precinct. That's how we determine the number of
11 officials to efficiently process those voters.
12 During the day, generally, you walk in, you
13 vote, you leave. But, again, when you have a
14 large number of voters coming at one time,
15 generally 4:30 to 7:30, a line will form.
16 With the growth in Wake County, we have some
17 very large precincts. We would like to create
18 additional. That requires funding. Funding comes
19 from the county commissioners. So if there is a
20 large precinct and a large number of people are
21 going to come to vote, there will be a line.
22 Q. Why do you want to create additional precincts?
23 A. To make it more efficient to vote.
24 Q. To reduce the wait time?
25 A. We have a precinct that has more voters than seven
67
1 counties.
2 Q. Right. But I -- I'm trying to understand why it's
3 important to you to split up these large
4 precincts. Is it because you don't want voters to
5 have to wait too long?
6 A. To make the entire voting process more efficient
7 for the voter.
8 Q. Including having them not wait too long?
9 A. You can never determine when voters are going to
10 come to vote to see if there will be a line.
11 Q. Well, you know that between 4:30 p.m. and 7 p.m.
12 is going to be a high-volume time, correct?
13 A. 7:30, yes.
14 Q. 7:30. I'm sorry.
15 And then -- and I assume you try and make
16 preparations for that expected volume.
17 A. The preparations are made for all Election Day,
18 not just certain times.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. You can't change midstream during the day.
21 Q. So since you've used the words "more efficient for
22 voters," if a voter is waiting 60 minutes at the
23 end of the day to vote on Election Day, is that a
24 situation where you think the process needs to be
25 made more efficient for the voter?
68
1 A. When I'm referring to "efficient," I am talking2 about inside the voting enclosure. Process them3 as quickly, efficiently, and accurately as4 possible. Get them their correct ballot, over to5 the voting booth to vote it, put it in the machine6 and leave.7 That's what I'm talk -- I want the inside of8 the enclosure to be efficient for -- and9 professional for that voter to walk in. I
10 cannot -- I -- the only part of the outside I can11 control or have control over is the 50-foot no12 campaigning.13 Q. So -- so splitting precincts may not have an14 effect on voter wait time?15 A. That is correct.16 Q. And that's not why you want to split precincts, is17 because it would reduce voter wait time?18 A. It is more efficient inside to have -- to have a19 precinct official process --20 If you have 8,000 voters in a precinct, and21 even if 50 percent vote early, that's still 4,00022 people for them to process in one day. That is23 probably going to -- it -- it's going to be a24 continual.25 Whereas, if you split that and have 4,000,
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69
1 and 2,000 vote early in each of those two
2 precincts, there's only 2,000 in that precinct to
3 vote that day, which is more efficient.
4 Q. So you're not concerned with how long the voter
5 waits. You're concerned with the efficiency in
6 the polling place?
7 A. You -- you cannot be that concerned with the
8 waits. And the reason for that, again, is I don't
9 know when exactly voters are going to come to
10 vote. Our officials found lines 45 minutes before
11 the polls opened. Lines started forming
12 afterwards. But anyone that was in line at 7:30
13 cast their ballot.
14 Q. Okay. So you didn't get any complaints at large
15 precincts --
16 A. No.
17 Q. -- about waiting to -- waiting time?
18 A. No, I did not.
19 Q. I'm going to hand you what has -- what is going to
20 be marked as Exhibit four sixty -- 463.
21 (POUCHER EXHIBIT 463, E-mails dated
22 11/5/14, Subject: Willow Oak Polling Location,
23 was marked for identification.)
24 BY MS. RIGGS:
25 Q. You can take a minute to look at this e-mail
70
1 exchange.
2 MS. RIGGS: For the people on the phone,
3 this is an e-mail -- it's -- it's a document
4 that -- the first page is Bates-stamped
5 SBE00101090.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 BY MS. RIGGS:
8 Q. Do you recall this e-mail exchange with Veronica
9 Degraffenreid?
10 A. I do not recall it, but I will not dispute it.
11 Q. Okay. You have no reason to believe it's
12 inaccurate?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And on Page 2, this appears to be an e-mail from a
15 woman named Cindy Harrison to the State Board of
16 Elections. And the subject is "Willow Oak Polling
17 Location."
18 And she says, "I would like to address the
19 fact that I had to stand in line for an hour and a
20 half to vote last night at my polling place. From
21 what I understand, my polling place had no less
22 than an hour wait continuously all day. It seems
23 to me this polling place is much too small for the
24 number of people who vote here. Does the NCBOE
25 have a procedure for requesting a larger polling
71
1 place?"
2 And this e-mail was sent on Wednesday,
3 November 5th, 2014. So that's the day after the
4 election.
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Did I reflect that correctly?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then Veronica Degraffenreid forwarded that
9 e-mail to you?
10 A. To Wake BOE, yes.
11 Q. Okay. And you receive e-mails at Wake BOE?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And she asked you, "Do you want to follow up with
14 this voter?"
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you not consider this a complaint about wait
17 time?
18 A. As I said, I don't remember this situation. I
19 cannot dispute what Ms. Harrison said. I do not
20 remember or know exactly what polling place this
21 is. But I also know, as I stated here, that one
22 of -- what I had just said to you before, when it
23 comes to having large precincts -- a large number
24 of voters in a precinct and the fact that you have
25 that steady stream. I did not receive a call at
72
1 all that day about a long line.2 Q. But you did receive complaints?3 A. This is a question.4 Q. You don't think this is a complaint?5 A. She's -- she's asking for a larger polling place.6 That's what we have been trying to get the7 commissioners to do.8 Q. So when I asked you if you'd received any9 complaints about waiting times, you wouldn't have
10 considered something like this --11 A. I --12 Q. -- a complaint?13 A. I did not remember this.14 Q. Okay.15 A. Okay. The day after an election, you don't16 remember much, because you are still -- it takes a17 long time to reconcile that election, you are18 still getting absentee ballots in, you're trying19 to catch up on things, and your mind is going a20 mile a minute. So I cannot say I remember -- I21 mean, I can say I do not remember this.22 Q. Because it's hectic the day after an election?23 A. Very. Yes.24 Q. It's hectic on Election Day, too, correct?25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. So when it's hectic, it's hard to remember little
2 details like this?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Did --
5 Do you remember being asked by the
6 State Board of Elections at some point after the
7 November 2014 election to report wait times that
8 Wake County saw during early voting and on
9 Election Day?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you --
12 Was Brian LiVecchi the person you were
13 coordinating with at the State Board of Election
14 on that?
15 A. I believe there was a survey.
16 Q. Okay. Who filled out that survey?
17 A. I filled it out to the best of my ability at that
18 time, basically saying I had no way of knowing
19 what the wait times were. We don't have resources
20 to time that.
21 Q. Okay. Did you know that the State Board of --
22 Before the election, did you know that the
23 State Board of Election was going to do the survey
24 after the election?
25 A. Not that I can recall. Whether they were going to
74
1 or not, we didn't -- we would not have had the
2 resources. You would have to keep someone outside
3 all of the early voting sites, all 200 precincts,
4 and we -- Wake County would not have the -- have
5 resour -- our budget would not have the resources
6 to have someone stand and document.
7 Q. Okay. But you didn't get a heads-up from Brian
8 LiVecchi or anyone at the State Board of Elections
9 saying, "Hey, after the elections, we're going to
10 ask you to approximate or report wait times"?
11 A. No. General -- I'm sorry.
12 Q. Go ahead.
13 A. Generally, you know there's going to be questions
14 coming from the state board. You don't know what
15 they're going to be.
16 Q. Okay. Do you remember when you filled out the
17 survey?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Was it in 2014 or into 2015?
20 A. I believe it would have been -- I don't want to
21 say.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. When it comes to Survey Monkey, which is what I
24 would get --
25 Q. Okay.
75
1 A. -- once it is submitted, I don't get a -- I don't
2 have a copy.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. You answer the questions, you hit "next," and then
5 it goes. So I would not have a copy to refer to.
6 Q. Did you consult with anyone else at the County
7 Board of Elections in filling out that survey?
8 A. Probably my deputy and the early voting
9 coordinator.
10 Q. Okay. Who's the early voting coordinator?
11 A. Brian -- Brian Pypiak.
12 Q. Can you spell that for the court reporter?
13 A. P-Y-P-I-A-K.
14 Q. So you believe, when you responded to that survey,
15 you indicated that Wake County didn't have the
16 resources to report wait times reliably?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. But do you recall you actually did fill out a time
19 for each precinct?
20 A. No.
21 Q. It was, like, in a -- "30 to 60 minutes" or "Over
22 60 minutes," those were the kinds of choices?
23 A. If those were the choices, those were the choices,
24 but I do not remember what I would have put. And
25 I doubt I would have done it for 200 precincts.
76
1 Q. Okay. How did you notify the State Board of
2 Elections that those numbers that you did report
3 weren't particularly reliable?
4 A. Probably via telephone.
5 Q. Okay. Who would you have called at the
6 State Board of Elections?
7 A. Whoever sent the survey out.
8 Q. So with Survey Monkey, you see who sends the
9 survey?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. Okay. And was it Brian LiVecchi?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. Okay. Did you ever review the final report on
14 wait times?
15 A. There was one, I believe, I saw last week.
16 Q. Did you review it for accuracy with regard to the
17 Wake County Board of Elections?
18 A. No. I read the report, and I can't remember the
19 one scenario that --
20 There was a little thing in there for Wake
21 County, but I don't remember what it said.
22 Q. Okay. All right. Let's move now to talking about
23 out-of-precinct voting. I am going to hand you an
24 exhibit that's been previously marked Exhibit 456.
25 It's from the Gary Sims deposition.
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1 MS. RIGGS: You -- you don't need to remark
2 this one. I'm sorry.
3 (EXHIBIT 456, E-mails, Subject: Voter
4 Problems - Paul Kearns District 20-11, was
5 previously marked for identification.)
6 MS. RIGGS: While Ms. Poucher is looking at
7 that, for the record, I believe Denise Lieberman
8 has joined us on the phone from Advancement
9 Project on behalf of the NAACP Plaintiffs.
10 MS. LIEBERMAN: Yes, that -- that's
11 correct. Thanks so much, Allison. I didn't want
12 to interrupt y'all.
13 MS. RIGGS: Sure.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 BY MS. RIGGS:
16 Q. Do you --
17 Do you recall this incident that we talked
18 about with Mr. Sims last week?
19 A. I don't recall the incident. I remember you
20 talking about it last week, yes.
21 Q. Okay. So you didn't investigate this situation;
22 Mr. Sims did?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Did he discuss with you the results of his
25 investigation?
78
1 A. That, I -- that, I can't remember. Because he
2 generally is the one that talks to precinct
3 officials. So I would imagine he would have
4 talked to the officials.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. And I believe if it says in here that -- I don't
7 know if they talked to him that night or not. At
8 that time, I'm out at our operations center
9 getting all of the returns or getting everything
10 set up for the returns to come in.
11 Q. Okay. So based on reading this e-mail, which you
12 did receive a copy of on Wednesday, November 5th,
13 Mr. Kearns reported -- I'm sorry -- presented to
14 Olive Chapel School at 7:10 p.m.?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And it turns out, that was not his correct
17 precinct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And we discussed with Mr. Sims last week that
20 Olive Chapel School was now a precinct -- was a
21 polling place for a different precinct, correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And that the polling place for his precinct had
24 been moved to Olive Chapel Baptist Church?
25 A. Yes.
79
1 Q. If Mr. Kearns cast a provisional ballot in Olive
2 Chapel School this past election, it would not
3 have been counted, correct?
4 A. That would be a board decision.
5 Q. Based on your understanding of the law under
6 House Bill 589, would the board have discretion to
7 count that provisional ballot?
8 A. It isn't a discretion, but nowhere in here does it
9 state that he has not moved. And that would make
10 a difference.
11 Q. Okay. So if he didn't move, though, if he cast a
12 provisional ballot, it would not have counted?
13 A. It would be brought to the board to make that
14 determination, correct.
15 Q. But under the law, it would not be counted?
16 A. If he was not an unreported move, correct. Right.
17 Q. Okay. And, apparently, when he went to
18 Olive Chapel Baptist Church, there was some
19 dispute about whether he was actually in line at
20 7:30 p.m. Is that how you read this?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. If he was not in line by 7:30 p.m., he was not
23 entitled to vote, correct?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. And when he went to Olive Chapel School, the --
80
1 the poll workers wouldn't have offered him a
2 provisional ballot, correct?
3 A. That was the one he went to first?
4 Q. Right. They would have told him to go to the
5 right precinct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Polling place?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. Even if there wasn't time?
10 A. That is not their decision to -- that -- that is
11 not their -- their decision to make. That would
12 have been his.
13 Q. Okay. What if he had said there wasn't enough
14 time? What would they have been trained to
15 respond?
16 A. They would, number one, probably call our office;
17 number two, he would have voted a provisional
18 ballot; number three, probably would have been
19 told -- and these are probablies. Because when
20 you have 1,000 precinct officials, you give them
21 instructions.
22 But because he would have been voting out of
23 precinct, they probably would not have wanted to
24 say, "Do you want to vote a provisional ballot?"
25 Because then they would know it wouldn't count.
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1 And because the two facilities are close, they
2 probably had an assumption that he would be able
3 to get there in time.
4 Q. Okay. Do you know how close they are?
5 A. No.
6 Q. But you know they're close?
7 A. Yes. I believe they're close.
8 Q. Do you -- strike that.
9 Okay. I want to talk now, briefly, about
10 same-day registration. How many elections -- or
11 should I say, how many even-numbered elections did
12 you conduct -- even-year-numbered elections did
13 you conduct with same-day registration in place?
14 A. When was it enacted?
15 Q. Well, I'm not supposed to give you the answers. I
16 believe 2007 but --
17 A. I cannot remember what year -- a lot of election
18 laws have come over the years. So I'm not going
19 to answer that question without knowing when it
20 was enacted.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. And I don't have my law book.
23 Q. Did you have any concerns with same-day
24 registration, aside from what we discussed
25 earlier?
82
1 A. It was -- it was enacted into law. We had to
2 follow the procedures. And you do what the law
3 says you have to do. So the concerns don't come
4 at that time, no.
5 Q. Right. But you -- you had a concern about the
6 completion of the verification process, correct?
7 A. That was after the fact, yes.
8 Q. Okay. That's what I'm talking about.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. As you're --
11 As you're administering same-day
12 registration, besides the concern with the time to
13 complete the verification process, did you have
14 other concerns with same-day registration?
15 A. This would have nothing to do with voters, but it
16 would have concern for the additional time that my
17 staff would have to work every day. So that was a
18 resource issue we had to work out and go to double
19 shifts, because all transactions that were
20 completed during the day had to be processed that
21 night.
22 So as I said, it wasn't -- it was an
23 implementation or an administrative implementation
24 concern for staff.
25 Q. Did you notice any benefits from same-day
83
1 registration?
2 A. What do you mean by "benefits"?
3 Q. Things that you thought were good about same-day
4 registration.
5 A. I don't think I ever thought about it. It's
6 following the law.
7 Q. Did same-day registration have any impact on the
8 number of provisional ballots cast?
9 A. I don't have numbers of provisional ballots
10 through the years, so I -- I would not want to
11 make a comment on that without seeing numbers.
12 And every election is different when it comes to
13 provisionals.
14 Q. Okay. Do you recall ever opining, generally, that
15 same-day registration reduced the number of
16 provisional ballots?
17 A. No.
18 Q. I am going to hand you what we are going to mark
19 as Exhibit 464. Let her mark that first.
20 (POUCHER EXHIBIT 464, E-mails dated 8/4/11
21 and 8/5/11, Subject: NC State Board of Elections
22 Research Inquiry, was marked for identification.)
23 MS. RIGGS: For the folks on the phone,
24 this is a document that's Bates-stamped
25 SBE-P-00097599.
84
1 MR. FARR: What number is this, please?
2 MS. RIGGS: Exhibit 464.
3 THE WITNESS: Okay.
4 BY MS. RIGGS:
5 Q. Do you recall this e-mail thread between you,
6 Veronica Degraffenreid, and Gary Bartlett from
7 August 4th, 2011?
8 A. I do not recall from 2011, no, but I have no
9 reason not to say that it appears to be.
10 Q. Okay. And you would have no reason to dispute the
11 accuracy -- or that you wrote what you wrote --
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. -- in this e-mail?
14 Okay. And you wrote to --
15 Well, let me say the -- the subject of this
16 e-mail thread appears to be "NC State Board of
17 Elections Research Inquiry"; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you wrote, "I also agree with the other
20 counties, that SDR does cut down on the number of
21 provisional ballots and the cost of full-time
22 staff, including lots of overtime to research
23 provisional ballots prior to canvass; is that
24 correct?
25 A. That's what it states.
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85
1 Q. Okay. You wouldn't have stated that to the State
2 Board of Elections if it weren't true, right?
3 A. This would have been after the --
4 This would have been in response to
5 something from the state board at a time I had the
6 numbers in front of me, which is why I did not
7 want to state that -- an answer before. Because I
8 didn't have the numbers.
9 Q. Okay. But the numbers must have indicated to you
10 that same-day registration cut down on the number
11 of provisional ballots?
12 A. That's what it states, yes.
13 Q. Okay. And researching provisional ballots takes
14 full -- full-time staff hours and overtime hours?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Which I also stated, if you notice, the second
18 sentence for the SDR where we're having to verify
19 the registrations for the mailings.
20 Q. Right.
21 A. So it -- it's -- I'm stating both in there.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. But the -- the -- reduced the number of
25 provisional ballots is a --
86
1 A. That was --2 Q. -- an objective number?3 A. Correct.4 Q. I spoke --5 We spoke with Mr. Sims about some6 complaints --7 MS. RIGGS: Well, I guess I should ask: Do8 you folks want to take a break now before I delve9 into another subject?
10 MR. WARREN: How long do you think?11 MS. RIGGS: It's a related subject, but12 probably be another 15 minutes if we don't take a13 break now.14 MR. FARR: Let's take a short break.15 MR. WARREN: Yeah.16 MR. FARR: And then I'm going to need an17 hour at lunchtime.18 MS. RIGGS: Okay. I -- do you want me to19 check and see if there are going to be lunches20 today or not?21 MR. FARR: I'm running back to the office.22 MS. RIGGS: Okay.23 MR. FARR: But --24 MS. RIGGS: But you don't want any lunch --25 well, let's go off the record. Sorry.
87
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off record at 11:19 a.m.
2 * * *
3 (Whereupon, there was a recess in the
4 proceedings from 11:19 a.m. to 11:34 a.m.)
5 * * *
6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at 11:34 a.m.
7 BY MS. RIGGS:
8 Q. Ms. Poucher, before we took a break, we were
9 starting to talk about same-day registration, and
10 I want to continue down that path.
11 We had talked earlier about same-day
12 registration as a failsafe, and I think we had
13 some disagreement about what that word means and
14 what it -- whether same-day registration is a
15 failsafe.
16 But before we get to that, I want to put in
17 front of you two exhibits that were used in the
18 Sims deposition, so I think you've seen them
19 already. They are previously marked as Exhibits
20 452 and 453 from the Sims deposition.
21 (EXHIBIT 452, E-mails dated 11/05/14,
22 Subject: 120 People, was previously marked for
23 identification.)
24 (EXHIBIT 453, E-mails dated 10/23/14,
25 Subject: USPS - Absentee Mail, was previously
88
1 marked for identification.)
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 BY MS. RIGGS:
4 Q. So we talked with Mr. Sims about some issues,
5 and -- I don't know. I suppose "dissatisfaction"
6 might be the right word, with the U.S. Postal
7 Service, their performance, at least with respect
8 to this 2014 election.
9 Were you aware of all of these issues as
10 Gary was reporting on them?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was it something that you and he would have
13 discussed?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And what --
16 A. This -- this is not the first time either.
17 Q. Okay. Describe to me the ongoing problem.
18 A. We would notify Mr. -- Mr. Anderson before every
19 election --
20 Q. Uh-huh.
21 A. -- "Please make sure that you inform the stations
22 the importance of a postmark for absentee
23 ballots." Because the goal was, if you started
24 out getting them all postmarked, it would be
25 better than -- towards the end, they were used to
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89
1 it.
2 We worked, also, with state board and
3 Veronica -- we started including her on this,
4 because other -- I believe other counties may have
5 been having a problem, but they -- I didn't know
6 about that.
7 And so it was the year before -- this was
8 2014. So it probably was for the municipal
9 elections. And municipal elections, you can have
10 one or two votes difference between winner or
11 loser. And, again, when we saw the number of
12 ballots that came in Wednesday morning at a
13 9 o'clock pickup, they had to have been somewhere
14 by 7:30 election night. And we brought those, you
15 know, and we thought this is -- this is a
16 disservice.
17 With that, I believe I talked to the state
18 board, and they said my board would have
19 discretion. So -- and this was 2013. So when it
20 came time to review the absentee ballots
21 postmarked on or before Election Day received by
22 that Friday, we had those separated. And we had
23 let the board know these came in first thing
24 Wednesday morning and that the state board did say
25 our board had discretion. So they were counted.
90
1 We had communica -- verbal communication.
2 We were on the phone with Mr. Anderson a lot in
3 2014 anytime there was an issue. We received some
4 ballots back that we had mailed. Nothing -- there
5 was nothing showing that it went to the voter.
6 It's like it just came returned to us.
7 So this time Mr. Anderson included more
8 people, because we -- we were seeing this as a
9 problem. These are absentee ballots.
10 Q. What do you mean "included more people"?
11 A. Well, if you notice who he cc'd.
12 Q. Are you looking at Exhibit 453?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. I'm sorry.
16 Q. That's fine.
17 A. Because you put the two together.
18 Q. Yeah.
19 A. So I apologize.
20 Q. No. Just trying to keep a clear record.
21 A. And so he's seeing, okay, there's still a problem.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. And basically, it was: We need to keep making you
24 aware. And ballots that -- like, one side of the
25 ballot has the voter's information. This side
91
1 would have our return -- you know, the return.
2 Well, it never -- it came back to us. So we have
3 no idea. Did they just put it back in the mail?
4 Q. I want to understand that a little bit more.
5 Mr. Sims mentions at the bottom of Exhibit 453
6 that one of the staff members had their ballot
7 returned --
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. -- as undeliverable. Is that what you're talking
10 about, or is that something different than what
11 you're talking about?
12 A. Two different scenarios.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Okay. One where we don't know if it ever got out
15 of the post office before coming back to us.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Because if you note, on -- on here -- up here,
18 again, he says no sticker and no postmark --
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. -- up at the top.
21 So you had some. And then others -- because
22 anytime you go -- absentee ballots are not
23 forwardable.
24 Q. Uh-huh.
25 A. So anytime it is not deliverable, you get sticky
92
1 on there "Not deliverable as addressed." That's
2 what he is referring to there.
3 And so in this situation, it was -- a staff
4 member asked for -- requested a -- a absentee
5 ballot. We got it back as undeliverable, but --
6 but that person lives where the ballot was
7 addressed.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. So that was a post office error.
10 And then you can notice the difference
11 between Wake County and Martin County where the
12 ballot was returned to Wake, but the address was
13 Martin.
14 Q. Okay. So the --
15 I had asked Mr. Sims this, and he didn't
16 know: Do you know who the staff member was who
17 had their ballot returned as undeliverable?
18 A. No, I don't.
19 Q. But you're confident she lived at that address?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So the U.S. Postal Service can return things as
22 undeliverable even when the address is legitimate
23 and the voter legitimately lives there?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And had this person not been on staff, you might
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1 not have known that there was this postal service
2 error, right?
3 A. It -- it would have come back to us not
4 deliverable.
5 Q. Do you get absentee -- well, let -- strike that.
6 Every election, do you send out absentee
7 ballots that do get returned as undeliverable?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So you don't know which ones of those are because
10 of postal error and which ones are because of some
11 other issue?
12 A. That's why we call the voter.
13 Q. Are you always able to get in touch with the
14 voter?
15 A. We try to call, e-mail, or mail a letter. Or the
16 voter will call us and say, "How come I didn't get
17 my ballot?" And we'll look, and we'll see it was
18 returned.
19 Q. But you don't always get in touch with the voter?
20 A. We try.
21 Q. But you don't always get in touch with the voter?
22 A. No. You can't.
23 Q. Do you know the extent to which this problem with
24 the error, as you called it, with the U.S. Postal
25 Service affects Board of Elections mailings beside
94
1 absentee ballots?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you have any reason to suspect it would only
4 apply to absentee ballots?
5 A. It will apply to all -- anything that is mailed
6 out, and that is because people move.
7 Q. Well, this staff member didn't move.
8 A. No. What I'm -- you asked all different types.
9 Q. Right.
10 A. So we change a polling place location, and we mail
11 out 3,000 voter cards. It may have been a number
12 of years that we mailed anything to that person
13 before, and they have moved. They didn't let us
14 know. That's coming back undeliverable. That's
15 what I was referring to --
16 Q. Oh.
17 A. -- when you said all types of mail.
18 Q. Okay. I was -- I meant to refer specifically to
19 this error we've identified on behalf of the U.S.
20 Postal Service where they return as undeliverable
21 something that should have been delivered because
22 the voter really lives there.
23 Have you --
24 Do you have any reason to suspect that that
25 error would only happen with absentee ballots?
95
1 A. I'm not sure I understand. I'm sorry.2 Q. Okay.3 A. I -- I really don't understand the question,4 exactly.5 Q. All right. So we were talking about the staff6 member who had their absentee ballot returned as7 undeliverable, right?8 A. Yes.9 Q. And you've said that was U.S. Postal Service
10 error, right?11 A. Yes.12 Q. Because that voter really lived at that address.13 A. Yes.14 Q. So it should have been delivered to her, not15 returned as undeliverable.16 A. Yes.17 Q. That error that we've identified, the fact that18 the U.S. Postal Service returns as undeliverable19 things that should have gone through because the20 address is right, do you have any reason to think21 that error would only happen with respect to22 absentee ballots?23 A. I can't say. I don't work for the post office.24 Q. Right.25 So that's why -- why my question was: Do
96
1 you have any reason to suspect it would be
2 limit -- it would be limited to just absentee
3 ballots?
4 A. That's why I gave you the scenario about when we
5 sent out voter cards, to show it is other items.
6 This came to the attention, generally -- and --
7 and you have to understand. With six hundred and
8 some thousand voters, there's a separate absentee
9 section that handles this.
10 This came about because it was a staff
11 member who came up front -- or, you know, the
12 staff -- the absentee ballot staff would have
13 noticed the name. Because if a ballot is returned
14 with that marker on it, it is bar-coded in. And
15 so every single one is looked at, which is why a
16 member of the absentee team would have said, "Oh,
17 that's a -- that's one of our staff," and -- and
18 gone and done something else.
19 If it wasn't a staff, then the procedures
20 are: Try to call them, try to e-mail them, try --
21 you know, look at -- you look at what they
22 submitted. Did their voter registration have a
23 P.O. Box on it, but maybe they don't want the P.O.
24 Box. Make sure what they put on their application
25 is what we entered, because we're human also.
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1 Q. Right.
2 A. So you go through all those different steps, yes.
3 Q. Absolutely.
4 But what I'm getting at is, based on what
5 happened this past November, you now know that the
6 post office can make mistakes and return things as
7 undeliverable when they should have been
8 delivered, correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you don't have any reason to believe that that
11 only happens with absentee ballots, right?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And when you get mailings returned back as
14 undeliverable, you don't know how many of those
15 are because of the situation you offered, that the
16 voter moves, or because it's postal service error,
17 correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. I want to hand you what we're going to mark as
20 Exhibit 465.
21 (POUCHER EXHIBIT 465, E-mails, Subject:
22 U.S. Postal Service Disenfranchised a Chief Judge,
23 was marked for identification.)
24 BY MS. RIGGS:
25 Q. This is a pretty lengthy e-mail thread.
98
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. But please scan through it -- read it, so we can
3 talk about it.
4 A. I remember vaguely. Do you want me to -- if I
5 need to refer to a part and have time to read it,
6 I will.
7 Q. Okay. I guess I want to start generally. The
8 subject of this -- so --
9 MS. RIGGS: For the folks on the phone,
10 this is a document that starts with the Bates
11 stamps -- Bates-stamped number SBE00033642. And
12 the subject line of the extended thread is "U.S.
13 Postal Service Disenfranchised a Chief Judge."
14 BY MS. RIGGS:
15 Q. So my first question is: Do you know who Bob
16 Perry is?
17 A. I do not know him. But I know he's a chief judge.
18 Q. Okay. And do you recall --
19 I think the answer is between Pages 2 and 3,
20 if you want to focus in on -- but do you recall
21 what happened to Mr. Perry that he was complaining
22 about?
23 A. My understanding is his wife was going to mail his
24 absentee ballot on Election Day, and then he later
25 found out -- and it should have been picked up
99
1 that day and stamped that day, and he found out it
2 wasn't.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. No. It was delivered back to his house --
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. -- instead of to the Board of Elections.
7 Q. Right. And I think it -- it -- it does say that.
8 On Page 3, in the middle of the page, it
9 says, "I doubt that I am the only voter who didn't
10 have their envelope properly postmarked. I doubt
11 that I am the only voter who had their envelope
12 routed back to their home address rather than to
13 the Board of Elections."
14 Did I read that correctly?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the next sentence says, "How many voters were
17 disenfranchised due to the negligence of the U.S.
18 Postal Service?"
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. You forwarded on this story --
21 On Page 1, you forwarded this e-mail
22 exchange to Josh Howard, Rhonda Amoroso, and Paul
23 Foley; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And who is the cc there, RobinsonWBOE@gmail?
100
1 A. David Robinson. That is the board chair for Wake
2 County.
3 Q. And Mr. Howard, Ms. Amoroso, and Mr. Foley are the
4 Republican members of the State Board of
5 Elections; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Why were you e-mailing just those three?
8 A. Those are the three I personally knew.
9 Q. Did you not think the other members of the State
10 Board of Elections would be interested in this
11 story?
12 A. I thought I wanted to e-mail the three that I knew
13 that -- that knew me. Mr. Howard was a member of
14 our board.
15 Q. Right. Ms. Amoroso and Mr. Foley weren't, though?
16 A. No.
17 Q. How do you know Ms. Amoroso?
18 A. I know her from the time she was appointed. And
19 Mr. Foley, I believe, had called me several times
20 over the past years with an election question.
21 Q. So you only knew Ms. Amoroso since the time she
22 took office on the State Board of Elections?
23 A. Yes. And we had talked several times then.
24 Q. Okay. Have you talked to the two Democrat members
25 of the State Board of Elections?
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101
1 A. I've talked to them, introduced myself at2 meetings.3 Q. Okay. You're a registered Republican, right,4 Ms. --5 A. That is correct. It's public information.6 Q. So you said in this e-mail that "I will be writing7 our North Carolina delegation about difficulties8 with the post office. We have tried to work with9 them for years now, stressing the importance of
10 date-stamping the return envelopes."11 Did I read that correctly?12 I'm sorry. I'm on the first page.13 A. Yeah, I see. Sorry. Yes.14 Q. So you told me about the issues with the15 date-stamping starting in the municipal election16 of 2013, and you wrote this in May of 2014. Did17 the problems start before the municipal elections18 in 2013?19 A. That, I can't -- under oath, I don't want to say20 "yes" or "no" on that one, because I don't21 remember.22 Q. Okay.23 A. But I know, anytime there was a problem in24 getting -- in -- in this, we would have let them25 know.
102
1 Q. You would've had --
2 You would have had no reason to exaggerate
3 to the state board members you knew personally,
4 correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And you mentioned, specifically, the importance of
7 date-stamping the return absentee envelopes, but
8 the issue with Mr. Perry wasn't just getting the
9 date stamp incorrect on the absentee ballot,
10 correct?
11 A. It was getting --
12 With him, they just delivered -- delivered
13 it right back to his home.
14 Q. Right. And so if he hadn't noticed that coming
15 back and reported it to you, you would have had no
16 way of knowing that he just hadn't submitted his
17 absentee ballot?
18 A. Correct. It would not have been recorded as
19 having been received.
20 Q. Okay. With the --
21 So returning an absentee ballot isn't the
22 only piece of a Board of Election correspondence
23 that a voter necessarily returns back to the
24 County Board of Elections, correct?
25 A. Repeat that.
103
1 Q. Voters mail you things other than absentee
2 ballots, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 (Phone beeping)
5 MS. RIGGS: Did someone join us?
6 Okay. Sorry.
7 BY MS. RIGGS:
8 Q. They mail back confirmation mailings, correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And if you don't receive a confirmation mailing
11 back from a voter, you don't know if it -- they
12 did send it back and it got returned to them or if
13 they just never sent it back, correct?
14 A. Confirmation mailings are forwardable. If they
15 can't forward it, those are -- those are sent
16 back.
17 Q. Right. But if they can forward it and a voter
18 gets it and he mails it back, we could have a
19 situation that we had with Mr. Perry, correct?
20 A. The difference would be it's a confirmation. And
21 if we did not receive it with any updated
22 information, that voter would become inactive, and
23 as an inactive voter, would still be allowed to
24 cast a ballot.
25 Q. Right. But you don't have any reason to suspect
104
1 this error on the postal service as part --
2 returning or mailing back to Mr. Perry's house,
3 you don't have any reason to believe that error is
4 limited to absentee ballots, correct?
5 MR. FARR: Objection.
6 THE WITNESS: I'm not going to speculate on
7 what the --
8 I'm sorry.
9 I'm not going to speculate on what -- what
10 can or can't happen with the post office.
11 BY MS. RIGGS:
12 Q. Right. So that wasn't my question. I wasn't
13 asking you to speculate.
14 I was just saying: Based on what you know,
15 you have no reason to suspect that this error
16 would be limited to absentee ballots?
17 MR. FARR: Objection.
18 THE WITNESS: I -- I don't suspect one way
19 or the other.
20 BY MS. RIGGS:
21 Q. You don't have any information that would support
22 a conclusion that it's limited to just absentee
23 voting?
24 MR. FARR: Objection.
25 THE WITNESS: I'm not exactly sure. I
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105
1 mean, I really want to answer your question. I
2 don't like speculating.
3 I cannot say, honestly, what other agencies
4 do. I do not want to be held accountable for
5 other agencies. So that's where my problem with
6 answering a question, is, not because I don't want
7 to answer you, but because I don't want to be held
8 accountable for what DMV does, what the post
9 office does, what any of the other agencies in
10 voter reg do.
11 BY MS. RIGGS:
12 Q. But you would consider it your responsibility, if
13 another agency is making errors that you're
14 detecting, to raise concerns about those, correct?
15 A. Yes. The first place we raise the concern is
16 generally to the state board, and they work with
17 us.
18 Q. Okay. So you had been complaining about the U.S.
19 Postal Service to the state board for some time?
20 A. Generally, my calls go to Veronica.
21 Q. Okay. And as of these exhibits that we've just
22 looked at, it doesn't appear that those problems
23 were resolved as of the November 2014 election,
24 correct?
25 A. Correct.
106
1 Q. I want to talk about another agency now, DMV.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do --
4 This past November, did you have voters who
5 presented to vote who said they registered at DMV
6 but were not on the poll books?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You were here for Mr. Sims explaining how he goes
9 about researching that. So I won't ask you to
10 repeat that, but my question is: Are you involved
11 in any of that research?
12 A. No. Basically, any of that research is completing
13 the forms -- or getting the information from the
14 provisional form, entering it into the form for
15 the state board, and sending it to the state
16 board. Because the county boards really do not
17 have -- we don't -- I don't want to say
18 "communicate," but we send it to the state board.
19 The state board is the one that deals with DMV,
20 because they're state agencies.
21 So any problems, not just for provisionals,
22 but anytime there is a problem, if you don't get
23 an image, anything of that nature, the state board
24 is notified, and then they work with DMV.
25 Q. Okay. But when you're doing provisional research
107
1 after an election, the State Board of Elections,
2 after its correspondence with DMV, somehow
3 delivers to you or publishes to you the results of
4 their DMV interactions?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And how do you receive that information?
7 A. Electronically.
8 Q. Okay. Is it, like, an e-mail, or is it posted
9 somewhere where you go look at it?
10 A. I'm not going to answer that, because that would
11 be the provisional staff, and it may be through
12 the intranet.
13 Q. Okay. And the intranet is something that the
14 state board and the county boards have --
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. -- access to?
17 A. I'm sorry. Correct. Yes.
18 Q. And at that point, the -- the onus is on the
19 county boards, then, to do something with that
20 information?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. The state board's involvement sort of ends at that
23 point in the provisional-research -- research
24 process?
25 A. Yes. Once they had received that information and
108
1 posted it from the DMV to the county.
2 Q. Okay. So Mr. Sims said that he explained that the
3 information you get back from DMV is whether
4 there's a voter registration transaction, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you also see --
7 If there's no voter registration
8 transaction, do you still see if there was a
9 driver's license transaction based on what the
10 state board gives you?
11 A. My recollection of what is on the form is only --
12 On the provisional ballot, there is a
13 driver's license number. And the only thing that
14 comes back, to my recollection, is if they did a
15 voter registration transaction.
16 Q. Okay. And does the State Board of Elections tell
17 you what to do with voters who don't have a voter
18 registration transaction but still say that they
19 registered at DMV?
20 A. The -- the statute basically states that if a
21 voter is not registered, they're not entitled to
22 vote.
23 Q. Right. But it -- it would be possible for a DMV
24 person to make an error and not ask or not put in
25 the registration transaction, correct?
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1 A. That, you would have to ask DMV.
2 Q. Okay. Have you ever seen a situation where you
3 think that might have occurred?
4 A. The only way I could see it is if I was at DMV.
5 (EXHIBIT 450, E-mails, Subject: Wake -
6 DMV, was previously marked for identification.)
7 BY MS. RIGGS:
8 Q. Okay. Well, let me hand you what, in the Sims
9 deposition, was previously marked as Exhibit 450.
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Do you recall talking --
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. -- about this exchange?
14 A. Yes, I do. Yes.
15 Q. So this had to do with the daughter of the chief
16 justice of the North Carolina Supreme Court,
17 correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And she and the chief justice told you and Gary
20 Sims that they had registered at DMV, correct?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. You were there and met with the chief justice and
23 his daughter, too?
24 A. Yes. I was up front.
25 Q. Okay. And this wasn't a provisional ballot, per
110
1 se, because she was asking for an absentee ballot,
2 right?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. And she wasn't registered -- or she wasn't on the
5 poll books?
6 A. She wasn't in our voter registration system,
7 correct.
8 Q. Okay. So Gary did -- did research to find out if
9 she had a voter registration transaction, correct?
10 A. Correct. We looked -- he would have looked in --
11 and I was standing there. And this is done for
12 anybody that comes in with that. I don't want you
13 to think it's just because it was this person. It
14 could have been -- anyone in Wake County, the same
15 process would be carried through.
16 You look in Voter View, which is the voter
17 registration. You don't see anything. You then
18 go to voter scan, because it could have been an
19 incomplete application where we could see it then.
20 And we saw nothing.
21 Therefore, he looked and he saw the other
22 daughter had registered. So at that time, of
23 course, we -- you know, we will always, quote,
24 unquote, "err on the side of the voter," and say,
25 "Okay. You're telling us this happened. While we
111
1 research, let's give you this opportunity."
2 And as Gary stated, you can't process an
3 absentee ballot to someone who is not registered.
4 That's why it would have to be done manually. He
5 would have to get sufficient information in order
6 to have something that we could make into a
7 provisional absentee.
8 And so she was given the form, the -- to --
9 to register to vote. And when that got back, we
10 still couldn't register her, because it was after
11 the dead -- I think it was after the deadline.
12 But we could send a provisional absentee for the
13 board to decide, which is why we got the state
14 board involved. Because this was a DMV issue
15 that's now after deadline.
16 Q. So she --
17 This incident, as far as I can tell,
18 happened on October 16th. I'm saying that because
19 the -- the first e-mail in the thread --
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. -- is dated October 16th, and Gary says, "Brought
22 his daughter in today."
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Was that after the close of books?
25 A. That's what I said. I can't remember when the
112
1 deadline was.2 Q. Okay. If -- and so she filled out a registration3 form then and there?4 A. She did not.5 Q. Okay. Why not?6 A. You would have to ask her.7 Q. Did you offer her the opportunity to --8 A. She was given one.9 Q. And you didn't tell her she could just fill it out
10 then and there?11 A. I'm going to make sure again -- we have --12 Okay. We did not get the registration. She13 filled out the absentee request. We could get14 enough information into a separate system, not our15 voter registration system, but we needed to know16 how to proceed.17 And so I -- I have no idea why they did not18 want to sit down right then and there to complete19 it. That is a personal choice. But from reading20 this, an application was given to them. They had21 already completed the absentee request when they22 came in.23 Q. Okay.24 A. So we kept that. But we did -- never did get the25 registration.
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113
1 Q. Did you hear the story directly from Ms. Martin
2 and her father, the chief justice's mouth?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you find their story credible?
5 A. Until proven otherwise, we try to believe
6 everything that any voter says.
7 Q. So Mr. Sims said he thought they were telling the
8 truth?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And his research didn't sway him otherwise?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Did it sway you otherwise?
13 A. He was the one that did the research. Once this
14 was done, I told him that we needed to -- to
15 contact the state board to see further.
16 Q. Okay. If -- if she had been registered at DMV
17 like she and the chief justice of the North
18 Carolina Supreme Court claimed, then all she would
19 have had to do when she arrived that day is submit
20 the absentee request form, right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Which she had already done, you said, when she
23 arrived?
24 A. She had it with her.
25 Q. Okay. Who did you talk to at the State Board of
114
1 Elections to get a final answer on how to proceed
2 on this?
3 A. I know Gary had sent, as you can see here -- we
4 had wanted to make sure that they checked it out
5 right away. And I don't know -- okay. He sent it
6 to the help desk.
7 And then -- yeah, we got the information
8 from Veronica that there is no record of voter
9 registration at the DMV. And so that's -- that's,
10 again, where Gary sent something to myself and
11 Kim, his opinion -- everyone's entitled to it --
12 and how do we proceed.
13 Q. And so my question is: Did Kim respond back? We
14 didn't find any e-mails where she responded back.
15 A. I don't know if she responded back or if
16 Veronica -- Veronica call -- may have called me
17 and said that would be a board decision. If -- if
18 the provisional absentee had come back, then it
19 would go to the board.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. But as of here, there -- there -- in other words,
22 we're done. Until we get a voter registration,
23 we're done. The state board has told us they
24 checked with DMV. There is no record of
25 registration. And so unless we get a voter
115
1 registration from her, that's the end of it for
2 us.
3 Q. So it seems to me, though, the last e-mail you
4 sent seems -- it seems like there's still a
5 pending question --
6 A. Well --
7 Q. -- on what the state board wants you to do. But
8 you already know that the state board told you
9 there's no voter registration transaction?
10 A. But this was also, if you notice, at 2:39 in the
11 morning.
12 Q. Right.
13 A. And at that time, right after the books close, you
14 don't remember a lot. I'm sorry.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. But my main thing of telling Gary this is whatever
17 we hear from the state board is how we will
18 proceed, basically.
19 Q. Right. And so you don't recall hearing anything
20 back from the state board?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Okay. And she was --
23 Because you didn't have the voter
24 registration, you didn't ever send the provisional
25 absentee; is that correct?
116
1 A. We never -- correct. We did not send a ballot.
2 Q. Okay. If the chief justice and his daughter were
3 correct and they did ask to be registered, for
4 there to not be a voter registration transaction,
5 that would have necessitated some error on the
6 part of the DMV worker, right?
7 A. If it was anybody that said that, yes.
8 Q. Okay. You get --
9 So this was about a provisional absentee.
10 But you get provisional ballots during early
11 voting and Election Day where the provisional
12 ballot is submitted because the voter says they
13 went to DMV, but they're not in the voter
14 registration record, correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And the provisional envelope actually has its own
17 little box for that, right?
18 A. That is correct. And it has the place that you --
19 Basically, what the voter would do is -- is
20 write down their driver's license number and the
21 day -- the date on the -- on the license.
22 Q. Okay. And my understanding is --
23 So all of those -- whether they're submitted
24 as a provisional absentee, a provisional during
25 early voting, or a provisional on Election Day,
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117
1 your staff does that provisional research, right?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Okay. And what you're looking for after you look
4 at Voter View and the IQ -- Q is whether or not
5 there's a voter registration transaction?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you make recommendations to the board or just
8 provide them information about whether there is a
9 voter registration transaction or any other
10 evidence?
11 A. We generally categorize them by registered,
12 many -- all different categories and then the list
13 that the board gets -- and I'm having trouble
14 remembering what it is. It's decisions that have
15 been made for every election on provisionals.
16 "This is -- this is how you've done it." So they
17 are consistent.
18 And so, for instance, for a voter who says
19 they were registered and they weren't in the poll
20 book, we'll look it up. Then we'll look into the
21 state voter search. Many times they forgot they
22 registered when they were in college. We will
23 print that out and wrap it around that envelope as
24 evidence for the board to look at when they
25 determine.
118
1 And -- and there will be a group that we
2 will say, "This is a group who was, at one time,
3 registered in Wake County. They have moved out of
4 the jurisdiction and registered there. And,
5 evidently, now they're moving back but did not
6 register here. And here is their registration of
7 record." So the board would look at that.
8 The same with DMV. You would have the group
9 where they say -- where we would let the board
10 know we have sent the provisionals to the state
11 board to be researched at DMV. These came back
12 that there was a valid registration attempt.
13 Then you would have another group that we
14 would inform the same thing, but DMV could not
15 verify or did not -- whatever the word is that
16 they use, that there was a voter registration
17 attempt.
18 Q. So you don't give them any information with
19 respect to whether or not the voter was actually
20 at DMV when they said they were?
21 A. We give them verification from the state board --
22 I'm sorry -- from DMV when -- that their name is
23 on the list. We have the list.
24 Q. Right. That's with regard to voter registration
25 transactions, right?
119
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I'm talking about if you have a situation like
3 Ms. Martin here, where there is no voter
4 registration transaction, but she was at DMV that
5 day.
6 MR. FARR: Objection.
7 THE WITNESS: The information that is sent
8 is on a -- on a form that the state board has --
9 it's, I think, again, through the infrastructure.
10 I don't enter that data, so I cannot say. I do
11 not believe it would be on there.
12 BY MS. RIGGS:
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. The only -- what they are looking for is voter
15 registration.
16 Q. Okay. And so when you were doing these categories
17 of recommendations and saying to the board, "This
18 is how you've done it in the past," did you say,
19 "Here are these DMV provisionals" --
20 I'm using DMV provisionals for provisional
21 ballots cast, because the voters said they
22 registered at DMV.
23 -- "Here are these DMV provisionals where we
24 have a voter registration transaction. We've
25 counted those in the past."
120
1 Is that how you would have sent that to the
2 board?
3 A. We also -- it's a printed list, and we also put
4 the statute next to that list. Because it's
5 important that they know how they have to rule for
6 the statute.
7 Q. And this is just the statute that you have to be
8 registered in order to vote?
9 A. There -- there is different things in regards --
10 for instance, as -- as -- you know, for the
11 out-of-precinct voter, for the unreported-move
12 voter -- when there's an underlying statute
13 that -- that they really don't have any deviation.
14 If they do have a deviation, it could go against
15 statute.
16 Q. Right.
17 A. But when we hand them to it, "Here is the group of
18 DMVs that DMV has confirmed did do a -- did do a
19 voter registration."
20 Q. Uh-huh.
21 A. They know that is one that you -- that has to be
22 approved. That's a voter.
23 Q. Okay. So what's the statute that's -- that you
24 give them?
25 A. I give them the statute from the election law that
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1 relates to, basically, yeah, you're registered;2 they attempted to register.3 Q. Is it the same statute with both categories, the4 ones where a voter registration transaction has5 been located and one where they haven't located a6 voter registration transaction?7 A. With a book that thick, I'm not going to say.8 Q. Okay.9 A. "Precedence," that's the word I was trying to
10 think of.11 MR. FARR: Could I ask how much longer12 we're going to go before lunch?13 MS. RIGGS: I probably have another 10 or14 15 minutes on this topic.15 MR. FARR: Okay.16 MS. RIGGS: And then another 10 or 1517 minutes total.18 THE WITNESS: Total and we'd be done?19 MS. RIGGS: No.20 THE WITNESS: Oh.21 MS. RIGGS: You've got other people asking22 you questions.23 MR. FARR: Yeah. And I -- I also wanted to24 know -- maybe I'll -- I'll just raise this issue25 right now. But I -- I'd like to find out how much
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1 time is left in this deposition, including the
2 time that was spent during her first deposition.
3 MS. RIGGS: Okay.
4 MR. WARREN: And she also needs to be gone
5 by 4:00, because she's a caretaker.
6 MS. RIGGS: Yep. I don't -- I don't
7 foresee that being a problem.
8 But I don't know who you need to talk to,
9 to get that answer.
10 MR. FARR: Well, perhaps the court reporter
11 can check.
12 MS. RIGGS: Sure. Do you want to go off
13 the record to check that?
14 MR. FARR: We don't need to do it right
15 now.
16 MS. RIGGS: Okay.
17 MR. FARR: But when you're done asking, I
18 want to find out how much time was left, which
19 would include the amount of time that was spent
20 during the first deposition.
21 MS. RIGGS: Okay.
22 BY MS. RIGGS:
23 Q. Do you recall how many provisional ballots you got
24 this past November where the voter had indicated
25 that he or she registered at DMV?
123
1 A. I know we received a public records request for
2 that a week or so ago, and I'm going to want to
3 say it's 200 and some. But I don't know exactly.
4 Q. If it were approximately 250, that would sound
5 right --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- to you?
8 Do you recall how many of those provisional
9 ballots ended up being counted?
10 A. Not many. I would estimate under 30.
11 Q. Okay. If I told you it was 13, would you -- would
12 that sound about right to you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And so those would have been voters where the DMV
15 research indicated there was a voter registration
16 transaction, right?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Okay. And all of the other ones, the 250-some,
19 minus 13, would have been ones where the voters
20 said they registered at DMV, but you -- your
21 research didn't confirm a voter registration
22 transaction?
23 A. DMV's research confirmed there was not.
24 Q. Okay. If a voter had this situation like
25 Ms. Martin or some of these 200-some voters whose
124
1 vote wasn't counted, if they presented during
2 early voting prior to the enactment of
3 House Bill 589, those voters probably wouldn't
4 have cast a provisional ballot, right?
5 A. I think you asked that question before.
6 Q. Did I?
7 A. Uh-huh. I'm pretty sure you did.
8 Q. My apologies. Can you remind me what your answer
9 is?
10 A. In 20 -- repeat the question, then.
11 Q. So prior to the enactment of House Bill 589, so
12 prior to 2014 -- we've been discussing issues with
13 voters who say they registered at DMV, but DMV's
14 research shows we don't have any voter trans --
15 voter registration transaction for them. If these
16 voters had gone during early voting prior to 2014,
17 they would have just registered, right?
18 A. Starting at the date that SDR was enacted.
19 Q. Right.
20 A. Up to that time -- up to the enactment of 589,
21 yes.
22 Q. Okay. All right. And that voter would have been
23 able to vote a regular absentee ballot, One-Stop
24 absentee ballot, right?
25 A. If their residence address was in Wake County.
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1 Q. Right. Yes.
2 That's a benefit to that voter, right?
3 A. Ask the voter.
4 Q. Well, you -- you've done elections administrations
5 for a long time. This -- this voter with this
6 problem, with same-day registration, would have
7 gotten to vote. And based on our looking at --
8 talking about this past election, they would have
9 cast a provisional ballot that wouldn't have
10 counted. Having your ballot counted is a benefit
11 to the voter, right?
12 A. Excuse me, but I'm also going to say: Registering
13 to vote in a timely manner is also a good thing.
14 Q. Sure. That's a judgment call. But --
15 A. Well --
16 Q. -- regardless, the voter's vote gets -- would have
17 gotten to count?
18 A. If the voter is -- any registered voter is allowed
19 to cast a ballot and have it counted correctly,
20 yes.
21 Q. So with same-day registration, if these voters
22 presented during early voting, they would have
23 benefited by having their vote counted?
24 MR. FARR: Objection. Form.
25 MR. WARREN: I'm going to object, too. I
126
1 think this has been asked several times.
2 MS. RIGGS: Well, she's not really
3 answering directly.
4 MR. FARR: She hasn't answered -- given you
5 the answer you're seeking, but she's answered it.
6 THE WITNESS: And my problem with it is I
7 don't feel it is my responsibility to state what
8 is a benefit or not to somebody else.
9 BY MS. RIGGS:
10 Q. Okay. We'll leave it at that then.
11 I want to hand you what we're now going to
12 mark as Exhibit 466.
13 THE REPORTER: Can I have that first,
14 please?
15 MS. RIGGS: I'm sorry.
16 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
17 (POUCHER EXHIBIT 466, Document titled Board
18 of Commissioners Work Session Ground Floor
19 Conference Center May 11, 2009, was marked for
20 identification.)
21 THE WITNESS: Oh, Lord. 2009.
22 BY MS. RIGGS:
23 Q. Yes. This is a work session report from the
24 board -- Wake County Board of County Commissioners
25 dated May 11th, 2009, at which, if you look on the
127
1 first page, it appears that you and Gary Sims were
2 present.
3 And what I want to ask you about is on
4 Page 2, about two-thirds of the way down. This --
5 I -- I guess -- I'm sorry.
6 Going back to the first page, this appears
7 to be your report to the county commission about
8 fall 2008 elections. Do you recall making such a
9 report to the Wake County Board of County
10 Commission?
11 A. No, I don't.
12 Q. Do you usually make some report to them after
13 major -- after presidential elections?
14 A. No, I don't.
15 Q. So you don't --
16 Do you think you were there for this
17 meeting?
18 A. I honestly do not remember.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. It says I'm here.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. I would -- I'm not sure why we were here.
23 Q. Well, if this is accurate, you were reporting on
24 the 2008 elections; is that wrong?
25 A. But what I'm saying is, there might have been a
128
1 reason, because this is also right during budget
2 time.
3 Q. Okay. Okay. So what I -- what I want to ask you
4 about is this paragraph with bullet points on the
5 bottom of Page 2 -- or two-thirds of the way down
6 Page 2, which says, "Ms. Poucher noted the
7 following records were broken in the 2008 fall
8 election: Largest increase in new voter
9 registration, largest voter turnout, largest early
10 voting turnout, largest absentee-by-mail turnout,
11 largest number of early voting sites, lowest
12 number of provisional ballots, most positive voter
13 feedback."
14 Did I read that correctly?
15 A. That's what it states, yes.
16 Q. The 2008 election was one in which same-day
17 registration was an option for voters, correct?
18 A. I stated before, I did not remember when it was
19 enacted.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. So I'm not going to answer that.
22 Q. Okay. If I represent to you that it was enacted
23 in 2007, then the fall of 2008 would have been an
24 election in which it was implemented, right?
25 A. If it was enacted at that time, yes.
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1 Q. Okay. And out-of-precinct provisional ballots
2 were being counted where they were eligible in
3 this election, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And there was a 17-day early voting period in this
6 election, correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. That is not to say -- and I -- I haven't read the
10 whole thing. That is not to say all sites were
11 open for 17 days.
12 Q. Right. We had discussed that earlier.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Just the County Board of Election site was?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to believe you
17 didn't report out these bullet points to the
18 county commission?
19 MR. FARR: What page are you on?
20 MS. RIGGS: Page 2.
21 MR. FARR: Which --
22 MS. RIGGS: The bullet --
23 MR. FARR: Which bullet points?
24 MS. RIGGS: Down towards the bottom.
25 Two-thirds of the way down, what I read out. The
130
1 largest, largest, largest, lowest, most positive.
2 MR. FARR: All right.
3 THE WITNESS: If I wrote this in May for
4 the November two -- May 2009 for the May -- for
5 the November 2008 election, in the way-back
6 machine, I believe some of this had to relate to
7 needing additional funds because of additional
8 expenses.
9 BY MS. RIGGS:
10 Q. Okay. Why would reporting that 2008 had the most
11 positive voter feedback be relevant to requesting
12 additional funds?
13 A. We're giving the positive. The -- the fact that
14 we needed -- that, if you know, we had to stay
15 after -- and I'm not sure if this was in regards
16 to the budget for additional precincts. I cannot
17 remember when we asked for additional precincts.
18 I wish I could remember back to 2009 why we
19 did this. And I can't remember why we did it.
20 I -- I just cannot remember.
21 Q. You wouldn't have reported to the County Board of
22 Elections something -- I'm sorry.
23 You wouldn't have reported to the county
24 commission something that wasn't accurate, right?
25 A. Correct.
131
1 Q. So you must have had the most positive voter
2 feedback in the November 2008 election, correct?
3 A. That was my opinion. Yes.
4 Q. And that was an election where same-day
5 registration was an option for voters?
6 A. If it was in the statute at that time, correct.
7 Q. Right. And this was an election where
8 out-of-precinct voting was potentially an option
9 for voters?
10 A. It was also a time where we had utilized two
11 shopping centers as early voting sites, which were
12 a tremendous success that the voters really liked.
13 As you can note, Triangle had 7,000 square
14 feet. Thirty -- you know, we just -- it was a
15 good experience. We started up with "Wake Votes
16 Early," which is our website for early voting. We
17 had a very large number of people vote. We voted
18 more people than any other county in the state.
19 Positive feedback, mostly, was in regards to the
20 shopping malls.
21 And so, yes, we thought it was a good
22 election. When you don't make front page of the
23 newspaper the day after the election, that's what
24 you strive for.
25 Q. Right. That's not what you said here, though.
132
1 You just said, "Most positive voter feedback."
2 A. It was. And -- and we had received an awful lot
3 of e-mails from voters in regards to the shopping
4 malls.
5 Q. Okay. Do you retain any of those e-mails?
6 A. Not since 2009, no.
7 Q. Okay. The --
8 This past November, when voters went to
9 early voting, if they couldn't be found on the
10 poll books in the voter registration system, were
11 they prompted or offered a provisional ballot?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. No matter what?
14 A. Excuse me. From my observation, when I was inside
15 the -- the early voting site, yes. But that
16 was -- that is part of their training. But I am
17 not at all sites all hours.
18 Q. Okay. So they are trained, no matter what, to
19 offer a provisional ballot to an early voter who
20 isn't registered?
21 A. Who they cannot find.
22 Q. Right.
23 A. And, again, as I stated before, we strongly
24 reiterate in training: You never deny a voter the
25 right to vote.
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1 Q. Right. So I would understand that to be different2 than giving a voter a provisional ballot if they3 asked for one versus affirmatively offering them a4 provisional ballot if they don't know they're5 entitled to have it. Does that make sense to you,6 that distinction?7 A. The voter -- at least, the process in Wake County8 is, if you are not in the system, you go to the9 help table.
10 Q. Okay.11 A. If they cannot find you in the system, they go12 date of birth -- you know, they look it up many13 different ways. Then a provisional ballot is14 offered.15 Q. Okay. Did --16 If a voter wasn't registered during -- when17 they presented during early voting, would they18 also be given a registration application?19 A. Now, you're talking 2014?20 Q. 2014, yes.21 A. The registration application is attached to the22 envelope.23 Q. The provisional?24 A. Yes.25 Q. Okay. Did people fill out provisionals but not
134
1 fill out the registration application?2 A. The instructions are that the precinct -- or the3 early voting staff is to look at the entire voter4 registration application to make sure it is5 completely completed and also that -- the6 provisional.7 Then there's also a little sign for the8 official to write anything else. But it is their9 responsibility to review the voter registration
10 application to make sure that it is completed.11 Q. Okay.12 A. And that stays attached.13 Q. Okay. So if a voter cast a provisional ballot and14 it's determined by the County Board of Elections15 that that provisional shouldn't be counted because16 the voter wasn't registered, is that registration17 application then processed?18 A. Correct.19 Q. And what date would it have on it?20 A. The election -- the election date, or if it was at21 an early voting site, the date it was completed.22 Q. Okay. So it wouldn't be postdated after the23 election?24 A. Not that I believe.25 Q. Okay. Did you look back to see how many
135
1 registration applications were dated during the
2 early voting period?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you have any idea what that number is?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Would you agree with me that if a person -- there
7 wouldn't be a reason for a person to cast -- or to
8 submit a voter registration application or have it
9 counted during early voting prior to 2014, because
10 the voter would have just registered?
11 MR. FARR: Objection. I -- I didn't
12 understand the question.
13 THE WITNESS: I didn't either.
14 BY MS. RIGGS:
15 Q. So in 2014 we have voter registration applications
16 that are dated during early voting, right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And they're attached to provisional ballots,
19 right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. That's not something you would have seen much of
22 before -- while same-day registration was in
23 effect, right?
24 A. The provisional ballot envelope was the same.
25 Q. Right.
136
1 A. And it would have been up to the voter if they
2 decided they wanted to register and vote, yes.
3 Q. Right. But they could have also just registered
4 at the One-Stop?
5 A. If they -- register and vote.
6 Q. Right.
7 A. They may not -- and -- and for same-day
8 registration, you had to register and vote the
9 same day.
10 If they decided they didn't want to do that,
11 they -- they -- they could register, but then they
12 couldn't vote that day. I mean, if -- if they
13 registered and left, okay --
14 Q. Right.
15 A. -- then it was treated as a registration.
16 Q. Okay. So that would be an exception. Was that a
17 common occurrence?
18 A. I would have no idea. I would doubt it.
19 Q. Right.
20 MS. RIGGS: Okay. There -- I have one more
21 topic, short topic, I want to cover. Do you want
22 to take a lunch break?
23 MR. FARR: I think we need to.
24 MR. WARREN: Yeah. Yeah. It's been a long
25 morning.
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1 MS. RIGGS: Okay. Great. Going off -- we
2 can go off.
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off record at 12:41 p.m.
4 * * *
5 (Whereupon, there was a luncheon recess in
6 the proceedings from 12:41 p.m. to 2:17 p.m.)
7 * * *
8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at four
9 seven -- well, on record at 2:17 p.m.
10 BY MS. RIGGS:
11 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Poucher. I just have a couple
12 more brief topics to talk with you about. And
13 then Mr. Kaul, who's on the phone, will be asking
14 questions.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. On Election Day this past November, did you get
17 any reports of issues from the Chavis Community
18 Center polling place?
19 A. On Election Day, no.
20 Q. Did you get any reports about a high number of
21 out-of-precinct voters appearing at that polling
22 place?
23 A. In 2014, no.
24 Q. Did you get any reports of a backlog at the help
25 desk rerouting out-of-precinct voters?
138
1 A. Personally, me, no.
2 Q. Would you have heard about issues?
3 A. If we were getting calls, we -- we send out
4 coordinators to deal with any situations and see
5 what's going on.
6 Q. Uh-huh.
7 A. And then I have to leave the downtown office to go
8 to the operations center, because that's where the
9 board meets to do our absentee. So I am only
10 there until about 1 o'clock in the afternoon. Up
11 until that time, I had not heard of any, no.
12 Q. Who would have received notification of issues if
13 the problems had happened later in the day?
14 A. Any one of the staff that answer the phones for
15 what we refer to as the official -- official's
16 phone line. That's a different number.
17 Q. Okay. And who would have worked the official's
18 hotline -- or the official's number?
19 A. There would have been a number of staff, but I
20 would not have their names at this time.
21 Q. If -- if there had been hundreds of
22 out-of-precinct voters who had present --
23 presented to Chavis Community Center on Election
24 Day, would you have -- would your -- would your
25 officials staff have reported that to you?
139
1 A. For that number, I would have been contacted, yes.
2 Q. Okay. And who would you have expected to contact
3 you from that polling place?
4 A. Mr. Sims.
5 Q. Who would have contacted him from that polling
6 place?
7 A. The coordinator.
8 Q. Do you know who the coordinator was?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Is that something you could look up and find out
11 for us?
12 A. We would have that on record.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Each coordinator has a district --
15 MR. FARR: Can I --
16 THE WITNESS: -- that they cover.
17 MR. FARR: Can I just ask a question,
18 Allison? You're -- you're saying hundreds of
19 out-of-precinct?
20 MS. RIGGS: Voters.
21 MR. FARR: At Chavis?
22 MS. RIGGS: Yes. Not that cast provisional
23 ballots. That presented.
24 MR. FARR: Okay.
25 BY MS. RIGGS:
140
1 Q. So, I mean, if an out-of-precinct voter presents,2 a poll person is going to tell them to go to their3 right precinct, right, rather than --4 A. Correct.5 Q. -- offer them a provisional ballot? That's what6 I'm talking about.7 A. But for something like that, they would not call8 for that. I thought you meant people coming in9 and proceeding to the help table to do a
10 provisional.11 Q. No.12 So they would have proceeded to the help13 table, because they were out of precinct?14 A. They would not have been on the poll book.15 Q. Right.16 A. Because it's, on Election Day, only the voters in17 that precinct. But if you go to the help table,18 there is a laptop.19 Q. Right.20 A. We can look the voter up, direct them to the21 correct polling place.22 Q. Right. That's what I'm saying. They're --23 they're -- these voters presented. They weren't24 on the poll books. They went to the help desk.25 They were out of precinct. So I was asking about
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1 a backlog or a line getting to the help desk
2 because there were so many of them.
3 A. If there had been, we would have gotten a call to
4 see if there -- we have what is referred to as
5 "emergency Election Day workers" --
6 Q. Uh-huh.
7 A. -- that we could have sent out to accommodate it.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. And every election, when you have an early voting
10 site that is the same as an Election Day polling
11 place, there is confusion.
12 Q. And that's the case with Chavis?
13 A. Yes. And -- and, again, with Chavis, because of
14 the historical nature, that is one that my board
15 has felt best to keep as an early voting site.
16 Q. Can you, very briefly, explain the historical
17 nature?
18 A. Since early voting ever started, the various
19 organizations in Southeast Raleigh requested that
20 that be an early voting site.
21 Q. And Southeast Raleigh is heavily African-American,
22 right?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. On -- going up to Election Day, are voters sent a
25 reminder of where their polling place is from the
142
1 County Board of Elections?2 A. The only time a voter is sent a voting card -- or3 voter information card is if they're newly4 registered; they make a change to their name,5 address or party; if we make any change, polling6 place, et cetera.7 Other than that, they have the voter search8 if they have Internet access or to call our9 office, and we will tell them. But no.
10 Q. Okay. All right. Last topic, very quickly: I11 want to understand the sort of -- the maximum and12 minimum numbers of people at a polling place,13 early voting or Election Day, that a voter would14 interact with.15 So when they go in, there's a check --16 When the voter goes in, regardless of17 whether it's an early voting site or an Election18 Day site, there's a check-in desk; is that right?19 A. That is correct.20 Q. Okay. And at an early voting site, if there's no21 problems, the voter goes from the check-in desk to22 the ballot desk?23 A. To the ballot table, correct.24 Q. Correct. Okay.25 And then, assuming there's no problems, they
143
1 go from the ballot table to vote their ballot?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. And then they leave. And if it's -- they give the
4 ballot to someone who sticks it in the scanner?
5 A. The voter sticks it in -- the voter inserts it
6 into the tabulator.
7 Q. Okay. But there's a person there manning the
8 tabulator, right?
9 A. Making sure there isn't a problem, yes.
10 Q. Okay. So the very minimum, on Election Day or
11 early voting, of poll workers that a voter would
12 interact with is three?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. And then at check-in, if there's a problem,
15 the voter gets sent to a help desk?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. And the help desk is manned by some other -- not
18 the judges at the site?
19 A. It could -- there's a difference between Election
20 Day --
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. -- and early voting.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. Early voting is staff. They are employees --
25 Q. Okay.
144
1 A. -- that we have trained. On Election Day, you2 have your three appointed officials, but we can3 have seven to ten assistants that are also trained4 and sworn.5 Q. Okay.6 A. So our early voting, the site supervisor who is in7 charge of the site -- between different tests and8 stuff, it's determined who has the best computer9 skills to work on the help desk. You would go
10 from the registration table to the help desk. If11 that person still could not be found and had to12 vote a provisional ballot, then the voter at that13 time would complete the provisional ballot14 envelope, the voter registration. The help desk15 official would determine the ballot style for that16 person's precinct. They would get that ballot,17 the proper ballot, and it's folded. There is a18 booth near the -- the help table for that voter to19 vote and then seal the envelope -- seal the ballot20 in the envelope, and then it's put in a sealed bag21 at the help desk.22 Q. So if a voter has issues and has to go to the help23 desk, it's possible, then, that that person is the24 last person they interact with?25 A. Correct.
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1 Q. Okay. But on Election Day, if there's issues, the
2 judges or some of the other helpers might be at
3 the help desk, too?
4 A. They -- they have -- they're still considered a
5 help table official. They have got their special
6 training.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. And the reason for that is you -- you make every
9 effort to locate the voter other than just by --
10 by name.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. And then many times, it could be a simple change
13 of address, still in the precinct. So that would
14 be completed and given to -- then the -- the voter
15 would take that to the ballot table.
16 Q. Okay. So the very minimum seems to be three, and
17 the maximum is -- depends on how many election
18 workers there are there?
19 A. We never have less than five to seven --
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. -- on Election Day.
22 MS. RIGGS: Okay. Ms. Poucher, that's all
23 I have. I'm going to hand you off to Mr. Kaul
24 now.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
146
1 Good afternoon, sir.2 * * *3 EXAMINATION4 BY MR. KAUL:5 Q. Hello, Ms. Poucher. How are you?6 A. Good.7 Q. And I, as you can tell, am participating in the8 deposition by telephone. So if you have any9 trouble hearing me or understanding anything I
10 say, please just let me know that, okay?11 A. Yes.12 Q. Can you hear me all right now?13 A. I can hear you fine, yes, sir.14 Q. Great. And because we can't see each other's15 face, it sometimes can be difficult to tell when16 somebody is done with a question or answer. So if17 you're in the middle of an answer and I speak over18 you, please stop me and -- and complete your19 answer, okay?20 A. Yes, sir.21 Q. I promise, I will not be bothered by that at all.22 First, let me direct your attention to23 Exhibit 463.24 A. One second. Okay.25 Q. Do you recall looking at this document with
147
1 Ms. Riggs?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. And I'd like to focus on the very top
4 e-mail. The last sentence in that e-mail, you
5 wrote, "We have way too many large -- very large
6 precincts, and even with early voting, there are
7 too many voters left to vote on Election Day."
8 Do you see that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What did you mean when you wrote, "Even with early
11 voting, there are too many voters left to vote on
12 Election Day"?
13 A. If -- if you look at the past statistics for early
14 voting, we have a very high number of voters who
15 do take advantage of early voting. In some
16 elections, more people vote early than they do on
17 Election Day.
18 But in a situation -- say, it would be 50
19 percent of a -- of a precinct voted at an early
20 voting site, and that left 50 percent left to vote
21 on Election Day. That would still be a very large
22 number of voters to -- to process in a timely
23 manner.
24 Q. Okay. So would it be fair to say that what you're
25 indicating is that even though early voting
148
1 alleviated some of the pressure on these precincts
2 on Election Day, it wasn't enough to totally
3 eliminate the pressure?
4 MR. FARR: To -- to what? Could you --
5 MR. KAUL: To fully eliminate the pressure.
6 MR. FARR: Fully alleviate the pressure?
7 MR. KAUL: Yes.
8 MR. FARR: Okay. I'll object to the form.
9 But I -- I can't instruct you not to answer
10 that, Ms. Poucher. You can answer the question.
11 THE WITNESS: It's -- it's one of the --
12 the --
13 The precincts have gotten so large in -- in
14 certain areas of our county because of the growth
15 in the county, that it would not have been
16 manageable without early voting on -- in an
17 election with a high turnout.
18 BY MR. KAUL:
19 Q. Okay. Did Wake County have afternoon voting on
20 the Saturday before the election until 2014?
21 A. In 2012 the state board ordered the counties to
22 remain open until 5 o'clock. My board had --
23 in -- in my recollection, my board had a
24 bipartisan plan to close at 1:00. And the reason
25 for that was to give -- give the office sufficient
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1 time to reconcile voter -- the voters that voted
2 at the early voting site and then to send the file
3 to the printer for our poll books.
4 Q. Do you know why you were ordered by the state
5 board to stay open?
6 A. All county boards were.
7 Q. Do you know why that was?
8 A. You would have to ask the chair of the state board
9 at -- in 2012.
10 Q. That Saturday just before the election is the
11 busiest day of early voting for the entire early
12 voting cycle, isn't it?
13 A. It -- it -- yes. Statistically, yes.
14 Q. And that's even though the voting is during a
15 shorter period?
16 A. What do you mean "during a shorter period"?
17 Q. Well, now, in 2014 voting on the Saturday before
18 the election had to end at 1 o'clock p.m., right?
19 A. Which is exactly the time my board bipartisan vote
20 wanted it to end in 2012.
21 Q. Right. So when I say "shorter period," I mean
22 it's shorter than the length of time you had to
23 vote early on, say, Friday?
24 A. We -- we were open later on Friday. We stayed
25 open until, I believe, 7 o'clock every night.
150
1 Q. So does that Saturday before the election
2 typically have the longest lines of any day for
3 early voting?
4 A. That has always been the case since early voting
5 started. Yes, sir.
6 Q. What role does your office play when there are
7 allegations of voter fraud in Wake County?
8 A. They are completely researched. I don't know what
9 you're -- exact --
10 Any type of complaint is researched, but
11 instances of voter fraud -- please be more
12 specific.
13 I -- I think in one of the e-mails that we
14 answered this morning, we saw the -- through our
15 reconciliation, that people had attempted to vote
16 twice.
17 Q. Sure.
18 A. That --
19 Q. And -- and I can be more specific.
20 Do you, based on your research, make
21 referrals to the district attorney for possible
22 prosecution?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. During your time as director of the Wake County
25 Board of Elections, have you ever made a referral
151
1 to the district attorney for prosecution where a
2 voter showed up in person imitating another voter?
3 A. I would have no way of knowing that they
4 impersonated another voter.
5 Q. What do you mean by that?
6 A. You state your name, and you -- you state your
7 name and address, and you sign. I --
8 Q. Well, when you say you would have no way of
9 knowing, do you mean that the -- the poll workers
10 would have no way of knowing?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Well, sometimes the poll workers know the people
13 in the precinct where they're working, right?
14 A. With the size of our precincts in Wake County, to
15 know the voters in the precinct are pretty
16 unlikely.
17 Q. Do you have situations in which voters complained
18 that somebody had voted in their name earlier in
19 the day?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How many times?
22 A. A few.
23 Q. Fewer than ten, would you say?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And that's over approximately 20 years?
152
1 A. No. I'm saying in the past few years.
2 Q. And what --
3 Did you investigate those circumstances?
4 A. Yes, we did.
5 Q. And did you determine what happened?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What was that?
8 A. Generally, it was a father and a son, and the
9 father or the son's authorization to vote was
10 pulled in error.
11 Q. In any of those cases, did you determine that
12 somebody had fraudulently voted in the name of
13 another person?
14 A. No. We had them -- them attempt but not follow
15 through on the process.
16 Q. When did that attempt occur?
17 A. 2012.
18 Q. And can you explain the circumstances of that
19 incident?
20 A. I'm going to get names wrong, but it was somebody
21 doing a film in regards to coming into a precinct
22 and stating their -- stating their name, which
23 wasn't their name. But they left the polling --
24 Q. Was it somebody that -- I'm sorry.
25 A. They left the polling place.
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1 Q. Did this incident you're describing involve
2 somebody trying to prove that there were flaws in
3 the system?
4 A. We didn't get that far. I just referred it to
5 the -- to the State Board of Elections and
6 informed them what was going -- what had happened.
7 Q. Do you know if a person named James O'Keefe was
8 involved?
9 A. Yes. That's correct.
10 Q. And he is a conservative activist; is that right?
11 MR. FARR: Objection to the form.
12 THE WITNESS: I had no idea who he was at
13 that time.
14 BY MR. KAUL:
15 Q. All right. Aside from that incident, do you know
16 of any other incidents of voter impersonation
17 fraud or attempted voter impersonation fraud in
18 Wake County?
19 A. That would be hard to determine.
20 Q. I'm just asking if you know of any.
21 A. I can't know of any, because it would be hard to
22 determine.
23 Q. So I understand it would be hard to determine,
24 but -- but that means that you don't know of any?
25 A. Correct.
154
1 Q. Okay. Have there been any cases in Wake County
2 where individuals took advantage of same-day
3 registration to commit voter fraud?
4 A. We had -- we had individuals who did register to
5 vote whose address confirmation or verification
6 did not reach them, and they were denied. So I --
7 I -- someone else would have to say -- say what
8 their reasoning was, not me.
9 Q. That could happen for any number of reasons,
10 right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. It could be if somebody moved between when they
13 voted and when they -- their confirmation was
14 received?
15 A. Yes. But it's generally -- they should receive it
16 within a week to ten days.
17 Q. It could also be the case that they didn't receive
18 it because there was a mistake in the mail, right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you, through investigation, determine that any
21 of those people had fraudulently registered?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You mentioned earlier --
24 MR. FARR: Hang on, Josh.
25 THE WITNESS: Excuse me.
155
1 MR. FARR: She has -- she has something
2 else she wanted to say.
3 THE WITNESS: What I wanted to say on the
4 end of that is -- is: When it comes to
5 information like that, that is what the
6 investigators at the state board would do. We
7 would send the information to them.
8 BY MR. KAUL:
9 Q. Okay. Thank you, and I'm sorry for interrupting
10 you.
11 A. It was an afterthought.
12 Q. All right. You mentioned earlier that there was a
13 roundtable discussion after the election. Do you
14 remember that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who was involved in that roundtable discussion?
17 A. I was not. It is generally my deputy, Mr. Sims;
18 the members of our staff that work on the precinct
19 team -- and when I say "precinct team," those --
20 they work with training the precinct officials.
21 The coordinators, who are the ones -- we call them
22 our stars, they have been long-term precinct
23 officials who understand the election processes
24 inside and out. And some of our experienced
25 precinct officials. Where they can sit down --
156
1 As you know, every election has different
2 aspects to it. They would review what went well,
3 what maybe we could make -- redefine better, how
4 we can make things more efficient, things of that
5 nature.
6 Q. And how did you learn about what was discussed at
7 that meeting?
8 A. Just general conversations with Mr. Sims.
9 Q. Okay. So from Mr. Sims?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you said before, I think, that one of the
12 items that continually came up was that voters had
13 called in to say that this was the first time they
14 had voted in North Carolina and they didn't have
15 to show an ID?
16 A. No. That -- your -- that's staff calls coming in.
17 There's two different things. There is a
18 roundtable discussion that is done with my
19 precinct officials. The other is calls that come
20 in on Election Day.
21 Q. Okay. And when did the voter ID issue come up?
22 A. I can't say when. It can be in a casual -- "I got
23 a lot of phone calls today. The majority of my
24 phone calls today dealt with people wondering why
25 there's no ID."
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1 And they -- the answer would be to the
2 voter, "You would have to talk to the
3 General Assembly."
4 Q. And this is -- these are calls that came up in the
5 2014 election?
6 A. They've come up every election. Mainly in the
7 major elections.
8 Q. For how long have you been getting those calls?
9 A. Ever since there's been a large influx of voters
10 from other -- other states.
11 Q. So approximately, when would you say that was?
12 A. I would not venture to guess. I'm sorry.
13 Q. Do you remember if those calls went as far back as
14 the 2008 election?
15 A. I'm -- I -- it would be a guess.
16 Q. And do you know whether those calls were organized
17 by any particular group?
18 A. I would have no way of knowing that, sir.
19 Q. Have you received -- actually, strike that.
20 Let me shift gears and ask you quickly about
21 the wait-times report --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- that you were asked about earlier.
24 A. Uh-huh -- yes, sir.
25 Q. In responding to that, did you -- you handled the
158
1 response to that entirely on your own; is that
2 right?
3 MR. FARR: I don't think that's what she
4 testified to.
5 MR. KAUL: Well, that's -- that's what I'm
6 asking.
7 THE WITNESS: I don't think that's what I
8 testified to either. I think I spoke with others.
9 BY MR. KAUL:
10 Q. Okay. Who did you speak to?
11 A. I know it would have been my deputy. Everyone in
12 the office has different roles. I will talk to
13 several people. And there are times I will ask
14 Mr. Sims to send in a e-mail. Other times, I will
15 complete it. But I believe on the one for the
16 wait times, I responded, with consultation from
17 other staff.
18 Q. Okay. Would you please walk us through the
19 process of what you did to respond to that.
20 A. For early voting sites, we had eight sites, plus
21 our office. They were open 360-some hours. So
22 periodically, during those times, but especially
23 on the last Saturday, different staff would
24 continually travel to the different sites and try
25 to gauge how -- well, first of all, to make sure
159
1 everything was going okay. Secondly, do we2 need -- you know, I was out doing traffic control.3 Where -- where do we need bodies? Because we4 would pull staff in -- our staff to do other5 things to help move -- keep -- keep everything in6 place on early voting sites.7 Then on Election Day, you have 2008 precincts, each open 13 hours. And at that time,9 we would really have no idea what is going on in
10 the 200 precincts until it's time for the polls to11 close.12 And then the coordinators are checking with13 each of the precincts within their -- what we call14 "jurisdiction." They each have about ten15 precincts. And they would say, okay, such and16 such a precinct is still voting. That would be17 how we would find out something at that time.18 Q. Okay. So that's what you were doing while the19 election was ongoing, right?20 A. On Election Day, correct.21 Q. All right. And you said you received the request22 for information for the wait-times report after23 the election had taken place, right?24 A. Yes. It -- it was -- it was not immediate.25 Q. So after you received that request for
160
1 information, what, if any, additional steps did
2 you take to learn about the wait times?
3 A. I just went and asked some of the staff.
4 Q. Okay. And staff at the County Board of Elections
5 office?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember who, in particular, you asked?
8 A. Basically, it -- it would have been Mr. Sims and
9 Brian Pypiak, who is the early voting coordinator.
10 Because he would have been the one checking in
11 with the others. Either Gary or Brian would be
12 checking in on wait times with others.
13 Q. Did you ask anybody who was a precinct official?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And I think you said earlier --
16 Well, tell me if -- if this is consistent
17 with what you said earlier: Is it right that you
18 said something to the effect that there -- that
19 there's no -- you don't have the -- the resources
20 to monitor the wait times at all the locations?
21 A. That is correct. I stated, our priority was to
22 process the voters inside the voting enclosure,
23 because you cannot -- it would be a guess when
24 voters are going to come. The great thing is they
25 did.
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1 Q. And so I think you said before, you didn't recall
2 whether you had responded to the -- to how long
3 the wait times were for each precinct on Election
4 Day; is that right?
5 A. With 200 precincts, I knew I would not be able to.
6 Q. And how did you convey that to the State Board of
7 Elections?
8 A. More than likely, a telephone call to
9 Mr. LiVecchi.
10 Q. Do you know which locations -- I guess I'll start
11 with early voting locations -- have the longest
12 wait times to vote in Wake County?
13 A. You had Cary Community Center, which is always
14 very busy. You had Optimist Park in North
15 Raleigh, which is always busy. Chavis was busy.
16 So those, to my recollection, have always
17 historically been the longest sites -- I mean, the
18 longest and highest number of voters.
19 Q. Did the wait times at those locations exceed an
20 hour?
21 A. Towards that last hour on Saturday, yes.
22 Q. What about earlier?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Never, or not consistently?
25 A. Not consistently.
162
1 Q. So sometimes it would have been over an hour at
2 those locations?
3 A. I -- I would not want to testify to that. I
4 wasn't there all the time.
5 Q. Do you know --
6 A. Many --
7 Q. -- which precincts had the longest lines on
8 Election Day?
9 A. No.
10 MR. FARR: Excuse me. Ms. Poucher, was
11 there something else you wanted to add?
12 THE WITNESS: The only thing I was going to
13 add in regards to where I was, if you went --
14 and -- and we had -- had different staff going to
15 different locations, as I said before. And up
16 until the end, I don't think people waited more
17 than five minutes.
18 BY MR. KAUL:
19 Q. Are you referring to early voting?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You don't think people waited more than five
22 minutes --
23 A. During that --
24 Q. -- at any location?
25 A. I said, at the location I was at.
163
1 Q. And which location was that?
2 A. Chavis.
3 Q. Okay. So you don't think that people waited more
4 than five minutes at Chavis until the end, you
5 said?
6 A. Towards those last two days, correct. It was --
7 it was a very -- walk in, walk up, go through.
8 Q. Okay. So just -- I just want to be clear about
9 what you're saying.
10 So until the Friday and Saturday before the
11 election, you don't think anybody waited more than
12 five minutes at the Chavis early voting location?
13 A. At the times that I was there.
14 Q. Okay. And when were you there?
15 A. It varied every day.
16 Q. Were you there during the after-work period?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And you said before, that was the busiest time,
19 right?
20 A. No. That's the busiest time on Election Day.
21 Q. What's the busiest time on early voting days?
22 A. I don't know if we would have a busy time on early
23 voting days. I would not want to speculate on it.
24 Q. Do you know if any of the sites that had long
25 lines were near colleges or universities?
164
1 A. No.
2 Q. I'm sorry. Just to be clear, you mean, no, you
3 don't know, or, no, that there were not?
4 A. I wouldn't know where the college students would
5 have decided to go vote.
6 Q. You were asked some questions before about voter
7 registration efforts in high schools. Do you
8 remember that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Would you describe for me, first of all, what
11 those efforts consisted of while preregistration
12 was still in effect?
13 A. I'm not sure what you mean by that, sir. I don't
14 understand your question.
15 Q. Sure.
16 The County Board of Elections did voter
17 registration drives at high schools, and still
18 does that, right?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. So when you do those drives, what exactly do you
21 do? And let's start by focusing on what you did
22 when preregistration was still in effect.
23 A. The person in my office responsible for the
24 registration drives would meet with the
25 representative from Wake County Public Schools,
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1 who met with the teacher from each of the
2 individual high schools. They discussed the voter
3 registration procedures, what was needed.
4 The teachers went back to their schools,
5 conducted their program. And during the
6 parameters, if -- if it was 16, 17 at the time,
7 then the 16-, 17-year-olds would have also been
8 allowed to preregister. Then those forms would be
9 accumulated at the school and sent the -- sent to
10 the Board of Elections office for us to process.
11 Q. Okay. So did anybody from the County Board of
12 Elections actually go to the schools to
13 participate in the voter registration drives?
14 A. That, I can't remember if we -- if we did or not.
15 We met with the lead person, who then disseminated
16 the information to each of the schools.
17 Q. All right. And how often did you --
18 A. I --
19 Q. -- did those drives take place?
20 A. Generally -- for instance, because we're going up
21 to municipal elections, we do it now. Then you
22 try to do it again when the -- when the students
23 come back to school in the fall. Then we would
24 see about doing it prior to a primary when
25 students would be able to register. So it depends
166
1 a lot on the elections for that year, when the --
2 when it would be.
3 Q. Okay. And I think you said earlier that your
4 opinion was that getting somebody registered right
5 before an election was more conducive to getting
6 them to vote than preregistering them.
7 A. For -- for people that are in that age bracket,
8 yes, sir.
9 Q. And what -- what was that opinion based on?
10 A. The proximity to an election.
11 Q. Okay. You haven't done any analysis of, you know,
12 comparing people who preregistered to people who
13 registered shortly before an election, have you?
14 A. No, I have not.
15 Q. And you haven't tracked people who preregistered
16 to see whether they actually went on to vote,
17 right?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Okay. So you're -- you're sort of making an
20 assumption based on the proximity; is that fair?
21 A. That. And then -- and -- and if -- if you get a
22 report -- which I do not have and would not know.
23 But I think the report would tell you the number
24 of 16- and 17-year-olds that may have registered
25 in a county but registered in another county prior
167
1 to ever voting in the county they preregistered
2 at.
3 Q. And there are a number of regular voters who
4 also -- the regular registrants, I should say, who
5 register and then move to another county before
6 they've voted, correct?
7 A. I wouldn't have a way to track that either. That
8 would have to be another report. That is
9 something we don't track.
10 Q. And so when -- when you said before that there are
11 a number of times when a preregistrant moves and
12 registers again at college, you're -- you're
13 speculating about that, right?
14 A. In many instances, no. Because that student's
15 parent will send in for an absentee ballot for
16 that child to be sent to their home, and we then
17 have to inform the parent that the child has
18 registered in another jurisdiction. So that
19 would --
20 Q. Okay. And --
21 A. That would not be --
22 Q. How many --
23 A. -- speculation.
24 Q. How many times has -- have you done those sorts of
25 responses to absentee ballot requests?
168
1 A. That would be something that we do not track. I
2 have an absentee ballot team. When you have the
3 tens of thousands of requests that come in, things
4 of that nature, when that request came in, that
5 person would not be a voter. So we would let the
6 near relative know why we were not completing
7 their request for an absentee ballot.
8 Q. Do you have an approximation for how many times
9 that happened?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And you said sometimes students forgot they had
12 registered, and they'd go to a rally and register,
13 a college or something like that. Do you remember
14 that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. And was that based on a specific example,
17 or was that just sort of speculation for how it
18 might happen?
19 A. In 2012 -- and I can't give a number -- but we had
20 several voter registration applications four or
21 five times for the same person.
22 Q. You received four or five voter registration
23 applications for a single person, you said?
24 A. Yes. This past year, the maximum was 14
25 applications for one person.
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1 Q. Okay. And what --
2 How does that relate to preregistration?
3 A. They could have also tried registering at 16, 17
4 and then went to college in Wake County also and
5 registered. And then they went to another rally
6 someplace else and registered. And then they went
7 outside Walmart, and they registered there.
8 Q. Okay. But this person who -- this hypothetical --
9 First of all, this is a hypothetical person
10 we're talking about, right?
11 A. No. I'm talking about some that have happened.
12 Q. Well, the specifics you're giving about Walmart
13 and the rally and -- and these other places --
14 A. Those -- those are specific instances. I cannot
15 give you a name, no.
16 Q. Okay. And do you know whether those people you're
17 talking about had also preregistered?
18 A. Yes. That's why I said 2012. Because they were
19 still on the -- they were still in the system at
20 2012. They would not have been in our system in
21 2014 as a preregistered.
22 Q. Sorry. I'm just trying to make sure I understand.
23 So in 2012 --
24 Well, first of all, how many -- how many
25 voters are we talking about here?
170
1 A. There is a difference between the -- the number of
2 16-, 17-year-olds that completed several
3 applications versus regular 18-year-olds who
4 completed multiple registrations.
5 Q. How is there a difference?
6 A. Well, you were asking specifically about 16- and
7 17-year-olds who --
8 Q. Yeah. But I -- but you -- you said there's a
9 difference. But are there more 16- and
10 17-year-olds who did that or more 18-year-olds?
11 A. More 18-year-olds.
12 Q. Okay. There -- there are more 18-year-olds who
13 have completed multiple applications --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- than 16- and 17-year-olds?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Okay. I -- I don't understand how that's related
18 to preregistration.
19 A. That's what I tried to explain to you.
20 Q. I --
21 A. I've compared the two. I said it happens both
22 times. But if you -- if you register as a 16- or
23 17-year-old, you're now 18. I have you in my
24 voter records. You go to NC State and there is a
25 rally, and you register again. Then you go to a
171
1 concert, and you register again. Then you go to a
2 concert at Walnut Creek, and you register again.
3 So basically, yeah, it's four registrations.
4 They want to make sure before an election they're
5 registered.
6 Q. Okay. Now, how many instances were there in 2014
7 of people who had registered multiple times?
8 A. Hundreds.
9 Q. Okay. And how many who did it four times, like
10 you just described here, or more?
11 A. I should say thousands that did multiple and
12 hundreds that did four, and the most we had of one
13 person was 14.
14 All of this was brought up to the state
15 board. We were not the only county.
16 Q. Okay. So it's -- it's fair to say that
17 preregistration is playing a small role in any
18 issue with those multiple registrations, then,
19 right?
20 MR. FARR: Objection to the --
21 THE WITNESS: I cannot say that.
22 MR. FARR: Objection to the form.
23 You can answer the question.
24 THE WITNESS: I can't -- I would not answer
25 that.
172
1 BY MR. KAUL:
2 Q. What -- what do you mean you would not answer
3 that?
4 A. I can't quantify between the two, because
5 preregistration ended. So any -- any comparison
6 at this time would have to be pre-2012, and I'm --
7 and that's several elections ago.
8 Q. Are you familiar with how the DMV --
9 Well, first of all, a 17-year-old who's
10 going to be 18 by the next election is permitted
11 to register to vote, right?
12 A. A certain number of days before. A certain number
13 of days before the -- before the deadline, you
14 can -- that person can register.
15 Q. And do you know how the DMV handled voter
16 registration applications from 17-year-olds who
17 are going to turn 18 in 2014?
18 A. I would hope they handle it to -- though --
19 through the directives from the State Board --
20 State Board of Elections. But I would not know.
21 Q. When a voter registration is submitted to your
22 office, can you just walk us through the steps
23 that your office takes to process that
24 application?
25 A. Yes. The first thing that you have to do, of
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173
1 course, is date-stamp. You open it. It is put in
2 batches of type or location of where that person
3 registered. Because for NVRA, we have to track
4 what type of agency it is.
5 Then the batches are scanned into the voter
6 scan, which is one module of the state software.
7 Staff would then do the data entry. The data
8 entry then goes into review. Separate person
9 reviews the data to make sure that all of the
10 information was typed correctly.
11 Once that is done, all the information,
12 including the image and signature, goes into Voter
13 View, which is the voter registration system, and
14 a voter card is generated.
15 Q. And have you done any analysis or review to
16 determine how long -- how many hours are devoted
17 to a -- a voter registration, on average?
18 A. I have not. But I'm sure somewhere we have it.
19 Q. Do you have an approximation?
20 A. No, because everyone -- you -- it would be an
21 estimate, because everyone is different.
22 Some registrations come -- can come in
23 typed. Others can be written so poorly, that it
24 may take three people to look at it to determine
25 what the voter's name is.
174
1 Q. Okay. And you mentioned some are written really
2 poorly?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Has your staff had more difficulty in properly
5 understanding what's written on applications that
6 are submitted by mail rather than in person?
7 A. One submitted in person could also be handwritten.
8 Q. When they're submitted in person, does the person
9 receiving the application sometimes point out
10 difficulties that he or she might have reading it?
11 A. No. With the volume of applications that can come
12 over the counter, it is basically perused by the
13 staff to make sure all of the required information
14 is on the form, and then it is put in the area
15 for -- to be processed.
16 Q. Okay. And the process you described before with
17 respect to entering the data and to prove that it
18 is correctly entered --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- there's been a confirmation sent out
21 afterwards; is that right?
22 A. No. It is a voter verification. It's a voter
23 card, and that is for address verification.
24 Q. Okay. And is that an --
25 The sending out of the voter verification,
175
1 is that an automated process?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Okay. So that the portion of the process that
4 actually involves, you know, human waver is
5 entering the data and then checking the data; is
6 that right?
7 A. Well, it's a manual process, from the minute it
8 comes in our office, to opening up the -- the
9 form, getting it in the proper -- proper batches
10 for the agencies, scanning it, doing the data
11 entry, and then doing the review. So it's -- it's
12 a multi-step process.
13 Q. Okay. So literally, open -- opening the envelope
14 is one step. Putting the envelope in the
15 correct -- you said pile for the agency?
16 A. Yes. For the National Voter Registration Act, we
17 have to keep track of where that voter registered
18 to vote.
19 Q. Okay. So putting it in the pile for the proper
20 agency, scanning it, entering the data, and then
21 confirming that the data was correctly entered; is
22 that right?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. Okay. Are there any other steps that go in --
25 into that on a manual basis?
176
1 A. If the voter registration application is2 incomplete, the person doing the data entry at3 that time sends it over to what is referred to as4 the "IQ." Then the staff that is assigned to IQ5 will pull up that voter registration application,6 see what is missing, and then print the letter7 associated with the missing information, print out8 the letter, print out the application as it is9 with the missing information, highlight on the
10 voter registration application form the missing11 information, fold the letter, put it in the12 envelope with a return envelope and mail it to the13 voter.14 Q. Okay. If the voter registration application is15 properly filled out, though, the manual portion of16 the process -- I understand it's probably17 segmented into different steps. But if it were18 all to happen sort of continuously, that can all19 be taken care of in a matter of, what, 10 or 1520 minutes?21 MR. FARR: Objection.22 THE WITNESS: Each of that -- every23 application is different. So to do a test of it24 is one thing. To say something without -- start25 to finish, I don't -- I don't want to guess.
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177
1 MR. KAUL: Okay. Can we -- if we go off
2 the record, I'm hoping to confer with my
3 colleagues for a few minutes. And I think we have
4 a few more questions, but then we should wrap up
5 our end of it shortly.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off record at 3:09 p.m.
8 * * *
9 (Whereupon, there was a recess in the
10 proceedings from 3:09 p.m. to 3:15 p.m.)
11 * * *
12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at 3:15 p.m.
13 * * *
14 EXAMINATION
15 BY MS. RIGGS:
16 Q. Ms. Poucher, Mr. Kaul is actually done, and I just
17 have --
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. -- one question I forgot to ask you about.
20 Did you ever talk to a Dr. Jeffrey Fernandez
21 about monitoring early voting sites during the
22 November 2014 election?
23 A. The name is not familiar to me.
24 Q. Okay. He said he's a defense expert who was
25 monitoring lines at early voting sites, and he
178
1 said he -- he worked at two Wake County sites,
2 Chavis and Herbert C. Young.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Do you remember him now?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. And he said you told him which early voting
7 sites to monitor.
8 A. I -- I told him that -- I didn't tell him the two
9 to monitor. The question was asked, "What will be
10 your two busiest sites?"
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. And my response was, "Chavis and Cary."
13 Q. And did you tell him which days would be the
14 busiest?
15 A. No. I believe he was here for a specific day.
16 Q. Okay. And do you know, were those the busiest
17 sites on the days he was there?
18 A. The last -- no, the last Saturday was the busiest
19 days.
20 Q. And do you know, was he there that -- that day?
21 A. That, I don't know.
22 Q. Okay. During any of the breaks, did you speak
23 with anyone about your deposition testimony today?
24 A. No. I -- I talked to Scott Warren, because we
25 wanted to find out --
179
1 Q. Don't --
2 MR. WARREN: Wait.
3 MS. RIGGS: Don't --
4 MR. WARREN: You -- you don't -- you don't
5 have to say anything.
6 THE WITNESS: That's right. Okay.
7 MS. RIGGS: Yes.
8 MR. WARREN: That's all privileged.
9 THE WITNESS: I -- I talked with Mr. Warren
10 about a question that you asked.
11 BY MS. RIGGS:
12 Q. Okay. But not about any of the questions you were
13 asked --
14 A. Uh-uh.
15 Q. -- in the deposition?
16 Okay. Sorry.
17 MS. RIGGS: Tom, pass the witness.
18 MR. FARR: No questions.
19 MS. RIGGS: No? All right.
20 Thank you, Ms. Poucher.
21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the
22 deposition. The time is 3:17 p.m.
23 [SIGNATURE RESERVED.]
24 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 3:17 P.M.]
25
180
1 A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T OF D E P O N E N T
2
3 I, CHERIE R. POUCHER, declare under the penalties
4 of perjury under the State of North Carolina that I have
5 read the foregoing 182 pages, which contain a correct
6 transcription of answers made by me to the question
7 therein recorded, with the exception(s) and/or
8 addition(s) reflected on the correction sheet attached
9 hereto, if any.
10 Signed this, the _____ day of _________,
11 2015.
12
13
14 __________________________
15 CHERIE R. POUCHER
16
17 State of:______________
18 County of:_____________
19 Subscribed and sworn to before me this ______ day
20 of _____________, 2015.
21
22 __________________________
23 Notary Public
24 My commission expires:____________________
25
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181
1 E R R A T A S H E E T
2 Case Name: NAACP vs. McCrory and Related Cases
3 Witness Name: CHERIE R. POUCHER
4 Deposition Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2015
5 Page/Line Reads Should Read
6 ____/____|_____________________|___________________
7 ____/____|_____________________|___________________
8 ____/____|_____________________|___________________
9 ____/____|_____________________|___________________
10 ____/____|_____________________|___________________
11 ____/____|_____________________|___________________
12 ____/____|_____________________|___________________
13 ____/____|_____________________|___________________
14 ____/____|_____________________|___________________
15 ____/____|_____________________|___________________
16 ____/____|_____________________|___________________
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20 ____/____|_____________________|___________________
21 ____/____|_____________________|___________________
22 ____/____|_____________________|___________________
23 ____/____|_____________________|___________________
24 _______________________ _________________
25 Signature Date
182
1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA )
) C E R T I F I C A T E
2 COUNTY OF CABARRUS )3
4 I, CINDY A. HAYDEN, RMR, CRR, Court5 Reporter and Notary Public, the officer before whom the
6 foregoing proceeding was conducted, do hereby certify
7 that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing8 proceeding was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of9 said witness was taken by me to the best of my ability
10 and thereafter transcribed by me; and that the foregoing11 pages, inclusive, constitute a true and accurate12 transcription of the testimony of the witness.13 I do further certify that I am neither14 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the15 parties to this action and, further, that I am not a16 relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed17 by the parties thereof, nor financially or otherwise18 interested in the outcome of said action.19 This the 28th day of April, 2015.20
21 ____________________________22 CINDY A. HAYDEN, RMR, CRR23 Notary Public No. 2002091005324
25
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1 (Pages 1 to 4)
1
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
NORTH CAROLINA STATE )
CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, )
et al., )
)
Plaintiffs, )
)
vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-658
)
PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his )
official capacity as the )
Governor of North Carolina, )
et al., )
)
Defendants. )
)
)
LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )
NORTH CAROLINA, et al., )
)
Plaintiffs, )
)
vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-660
)
THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )
et al., )
)
Defendants. )
)
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )
)
Plaintiff, )
)
vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-861
)
THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )
et al., )
)
Defendants. )
________________________________
DEPOSITION OF
CANDI L. RHINEHART
2
1 DEPOSITION OF
2 CANDI L. RHINEHART
3 ___________________________________________________
4 2:38 p.m.
5 Thursday, April 30, 2015
6 ___________________________________________________
7
RENAISSANCE ASHEVILLE HOTEL
8
31 WOODFIN STREET
9
ASHEVILLE, NORTH CAROLINA
10
11
12
13 By: Cindy A. Hayden, RMR-CRR
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
1 A P P E A R A N C E S2
3 Counsel for the United States of America Plaintiffs:4
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE5 BY: AVNER SHAPIRO, ESQ.
950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.6 Washington, DC 20530
(800) 305-18407 [email protected]
Counsel for Defendant Patrick Lloyd McCrory:9
BOWERS LAW OFFICE10 BY: BUTCH BOWERS, ESQ.
1419 Pendleton Street11 Columbia, SC 29201
(803) 753-109912 [email protected]
Counsel for Duke Intervenors:14
POYNER SPRUILL LLP15 BY: JOHN W. O'HALE, ESQ.
(Via telephone)16 301 Fayetteville Street
Suite 190017 Raleigh, NC 27601
(919) 783-280218 [email protected]
Reported By:20
DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS21 AND LEGAL VIDEOGRAPHER
BY: CINDY A. HAYDEN, RMR-CRR22 BRUCE WEEKLY, Videographer
4208 Six Forks Road23 Suite 1000
Raleigh, NC 2760924 (919) 649-9998
4
1 I N D E X2 PAGE3 EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO 64 EXAMINATION BY MR. BOWERS 215 EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO 606
7 E X H I B I T S8
RHINEHART9 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
10
EXHIBIT 1 E-mails, Subject: Voter Fraud 4311 Actions needed now12 EXHIBIT 2 E-mails, Subject: Voter Fraud 48
Actions needed now13
EXHIBIT 3 E-mail dated 11/2/04, Subject: 5014 Possible absentee fraud15 EXHIBIT 4 E-mails, Subject: 54
Undeliverable: FW: NC voter16 fraud revised addition17
18 (The exhibits are included with the19 transcript.)20
21
22
23
24
25
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5
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 * * * * * *
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the videotaped
4 deposition of Candi Rhinehart in the matter of the
5 NAACP, et al., versus McCrory, et al., and LWV, et
6 al., versus North Carolina, et al., and U.S.A.
7 versus North Carolina, et al., filed in the United
8 States District Court, Middle District of North
9 Carolina.
10 Today is Thursday, April 30th, 2015. This
11 deposition is being held in the Renaissance
12 Asheville Hotel located at 31 Woodfin Street,
13 Asheville, North Carolina.
14 My name is Bruce Weekly. I'm the video
15 specialist. The court reporter is Cindy Hayden.
16 We are now on the record. The time on the monitor
17 is 1438.
18 Counsel will now introduce themselves and
19 whom they represent.
20 MR. SHAPIRO: I am Avner Shapiro. I
21 represent the United States, which is a plaintiff
22 in this matter.
23 MR. BOWERS: And my name is Butch Bowers.
24 I'm a lawyer from Columbia, South Carolina, and I
25 represent Governor McCrory in this matter.
6
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Would the court reporter
2 please swear in the witness.
3 CANDI L. RHINEHART,
4 having been first duly sworn or affirmed by the
5 Certified Shorthand Reporter to tell the truth,
6 the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
7 testified as follows:
8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: You may begin.
9 EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
11 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Rhinehart.
12 A. Good afternoon.
13 Q. Could you please state your full name for the
14 record.
15 A. Candi Lynn Rhinehart.
16 Q. And where do you reside?
17 A. Currently I am at 18 Mockingbird Lane in Marshall,
18 North Carolina.
19 Q. And is Marshall in Madison County?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And where do you -- where do you work?
22 A. I work at Madison Middle School.
23 Q. And what's your occupation?
24 A. I'm a school counselor.
25 Q. Okay. And do you have a bachelor's from Elon
7
1 University in which you obtained in 2003?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is that right?
4 Okay. And what did you study at Elon?
5 A. Elon.
6 Q. Elon. My apologies.
7 A. My -- my major was political science and minor in
8 sociology and criminal justice.
9 Q. Okay. And not long after you obtained your
10 undergraduate degree I understand you got a job at
11 the State Board of Elections; is that correct?
12 A. Yeah, approximately a year and a half after
13 graduation.
14 Q. Okay. And from when to when did you work at the
15 Board of Elections?
16 A. From October of 2004 through I think it was June
17 of 2012.
18 Q. And what positions did you hold there?
19 A. I was an investigator and certification outreach
20 assistant.
21 Q. And for how long were you an investigator,
22 roughly?
23 A. It was around two or three years, in that part.
24 Q. Okay. So was that the beginning from 2004 to --
25 A. Yeah, the very beginning was investigator to like
8
1 2006 or '7, yeah.
2 Q. And you said you worked there at the State Board
3 of Elections until 2012. Why did you leave in
4 2012?
5 A. I had started my master's in 2006, and at that
6 time in 2012 I just had a -- I'd had a son in
7 November, and so by that time I quit so I could
8 finish my internship and take care of him for a
9 little while before I started my internship, which
10 started that August.
11 Q. So let me see if I understand this. You said you
12 started a master's. Was it a master's in another
13 field?
14 A. Yeah, master's in school counseling.
15 Q. So in 2006 you decided you wanted to be a school
16 counselor?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And then you were in graduate school?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. While you were at the State Board of Elections?
21 A. At the State Board of Elections, yeah. I worked
22 full time and went to school.
23 Q. Okay. Great. So I want to talk to you, if I may,
24 about the work you did as an investigator for the
25 first sort of two to three years that you were at
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9
1 the State Board of Elections. In general terms,
2 what type of work did you do while you were an
3 investigator?
4 A. There were some investigations that I helped with
5 and, you know, a few -- a few things that we
6 investigated, but there wasn't that many really
7 investigating. I did a lot of administrative
8 duties; like checking provisional ballots was a
9 big one, and I started helping with certification
10 even then and doing some of those duties, too.
11 Q. Okay. And you stated that your job title was as
12 an investigator.
13 A. Investigator.
14 Q. Do you know why you were spending only part of
15 your time doing investigations and the rest of the
16 time doing administrative work?
17 A. There wasn't that much stuff coming in most of the
18 time. If, you know, Marshall -- there was me and
19 Marshall in there to do it, Mr. Tutor, and I would
20 help him do some things, but he would do it or
21 whatever, but there wasn't really that much for me
22 to do.
23 Q. Okay. So if I understand you correctly, you were
24 working with another more -- another investigator?
25 A. Yeah.
10
1 Q. Was he a more senior investigator?
2 A. He was. He had been there for -- I don't know how
3 long he had been there before I had been there.
4 At least five or six years I think, maybe more.
5 Q. And that was Marshall Tutor?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was he the only other investigator?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. And so you said that you didn't have that
10 much stuff to do. Do you mean you didn't have
11 that many cases to investigate?
12 A. Yeah, yeah, we didn't get that many cases really
13 to do.
14 Q. Okay. And what type of cases did you and
15 Mr. Marshall investigate?
16 A. There's a -- there are a couple that I really
17 remember, you know. There was --
18 Q. Let me stop you. Broadly what types of categories
19 of cases?
20 A. Just like anything to do with voting. We were in
21 the administration division. So anything to do
22 with administration of election if it was wrong
23 kind of we would -- like with the voters, you
24 know, like any kind of voter fraud, like that, or
25 somebody voting and they weren't who they said
11
1 they were or, you know, dead people voting; you
2 know, everybody likes to bring that one up, but we
3 never really saw that, but that was one of the --
4 you know, we've heard about before.
5 Q. Okay. And did that include campaign finance cases
6 or --
7 A. No. We have a campaign finance division, and they
8 would handle their -- their investigations in
9 theirs, unless -- there was -- I can remember one
10 time helping, and I think it was when I was in
11 certification and outreach even, but there was
12 just so much paperwork to go through that they
13 kind of pulled lots of us in there to help go
14 through the paperwork, but those campaign finances
15 were handled by that division.
16 Q. Okay. So you didn't do all the campaign finance
17 cases. Is there any other kind of case that you
18 wouldn't handle?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Were there any other investigators at the Board of
21 Elections besides you and Marshall?
22 A. No. We were the only two.
23 Q. Okay. And I think you mentioned already that the
24 type of -- one type of case you handled were cases
25 involving allegations of voter fraud; is that
12
1 right?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. How did cases involving allegations of voter fraud
4 come to you?
5 A. A lot of times it would be from either the County
6 Board of Elections because we're over all hundred
7 County Board of Elections; so they would report to
8 us, individuals just calling in and saying they
9 saw something or whatever or the parties, and then
10 sometimes there were some things like felon lists
11 and stuff like that we would have to double-check
12 and do.
13 Q. Okay. Are these felon lists that you could get
14 from the Department of Corrections --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- and then analyze --
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. -- and compare with your own data?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Okay. And so in the two or three years that you
21 were working as an investigator, roughly how many
22 cases did you work on?
23 A. I really don't remember that many, and I would say
24 like ten or so. I mean, there really weren't many
25 that I did.
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13
1 Q. And why so few?
2 A. We really didn't have that many for that, and like
3 I said, you know, most of the time -- a lot of
4 times I was doing other things, too, because there
5 wasn't much for me to do.
6 Q. Uh-huh. How did you go about investigating the
7 cases that you did have on your -- on your docket?
8 A. Marshall and I would kind of, you know, work
9 together and figure out who we needed to talk to
10 like be it, you know, whoever called and whoever
11 is being alleged or the county boards and whoever
12 else remaining to talk to, and we would call them
13 and talk to them or a lot of times Marshall would
14 go and visit the people and go to the places.
15 Q. And how closely did you work with Mr. Marshall?
16 A. Well, everything I did was, you know -- we -- I
17 worked with him because he was like my senior
18 person, so we were pretty close.
19 Q. Was he aware of everything that was happening in
20 your case?
21 A. Yes, he was.
22 Q. Okay. What can you remember about the roughly I
23 think you said ten cases that you investigated?
24 A. There's -- you know, it's hard to remember 12
25 years ago, but, you know, there was a couple cases
14
1 that stick out in my mind, and like one of them
2 was -- it was a voter misinformation case really.
3 It was a man had done a sign and he said
4 Republicans vote Tuesday, Democrats Wednesday and
5 everybody else Thursday. So that was one of them,
6 and that just stuck out, because when I met the
7 man, I felt really bad for him because I knew he
8 wasn't mentally there. So I felt bad we were even
9 investigating that one. And I'm trying to think
10 of another one. I can't think right now.
11 Q. Okay. With regard to the cases that you don't
12 remember --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- you know, how serious were those cases?
15 A. They must not have been too --
16 MR. BOWERS: Object -- object to form. How
17 can she remember -- how can she testify as to
18 something she doesn't remember.
19 MR. SHAPIRO: Let me rephrase it.
20 MR. BOWERS: Sure.
21 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
22 Q. What do you -- what do you recall generally about
23 the types of cases you were --
24 A. That I worked?
25 Q. -- investigating? Even if you don't remember the
15
1 specifics.
2 A. Okay. So sometimes like -- and, you know, mainly
3 it happened during election times because that's
4 when everybody is, you know, and they would call,
5 and sometimes people maybe alleged that there is
6 some voter fraud or something, perhaps that a
7 voter voted twice, and when we would investigate
8 and go back and we look at poll books and we look
9 at ballots and we talked to everybody, it would be
10 that poll worker errors would be generally the
11 problem like -- so if -- if I'm doing the poll
12 book and I mark out a name and then that person
13 comes in and they're already marked out, and I'm
14 like, "You've already voted." And they're like,
15 "No, I haven't." The poll worker had marked the
16 wrong person out, either, you know, the person
17 above or below they had marked the wrong name.
18 Q. In any of the cases that you investigated, do you
19 recall ever finding any evidence that would
20 suggest voter fraud?
21 A. Not that I did.
22 Q. In any of the cases that you investigated, did you
23 ever find any evidence that a voter may have
24 engaged in deception or in some way knowingly cast
25 a vote -- voted when he was not entitled to vote?
16
1 A. Not that I recall. No.
2 Q. Okay. Do you have any recollection of any case
3 involving a voter intentionally impersonating
4 someone else at the poll?
5 A. No, not intentionally. Un-hun. Or not
6 impersonated at all.
7 Q. You have no -- no recollection of any such case?
8 A. Un-hun.
9 Q. Now, you mentioned that you recall working on
10 cases where there was a poll worker error --
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. -- where there was an allegation of voter
13 impersonation at the polls; is that right?
14 A. Like a double -- or somebody trying to vote twice,
15 yeah.
16 Q. Okay. And -- and you -- and you stated that you
17 thought it was poll worker error. How could you
18 reach that conclusion?
19 A. Well, like we would look at poll books and we
20 would look at the, you know -- we would talk to
21 all the poll workers and we would talk to the
22 person that had voted and then the other person,
23 like whoever was involved in that -- or that error
24 and then the County Board of Elections, too. So
25 we just kind of interview everybody around that
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17
1 that could be involved.
2 Q. So how confident are you that these cases really
3 involved error as opposed to malfeasance?
4 A. Very confident.
5 Q. Now, you were working with Mr. Marshall, and as I
6 understand it, there were some cases that he was
7 working on where you were not working with him; is
8 that correct?
9 A. Right. Yeah.
10 Q. Did he ever discuss any of his cases with you?
11 A. Yeah, sometimes he did.
12 Q. Do you remember anything about any of those cases?
13 A. There was one, and I think it was after I had
14 moved positions, and it was someone had voted
15 twice, I think, and I really remember it being
16 like around Winston-Salem, Greensboro area, but
17 come to find out it was an elderly person who had
18 voted -- I think they may have voted absentee and
19 then somebody came around to take people voting,
20 and they got on that bus. You know, they wanted
21 to go, and then they voted in person, too; so they
22 voted twice, but they didn't remember voting that
23 first time, so it was more of a -- just a -- I
24 don't know, you know, if they had something, you
25 know, dementia or something like that, but they
18
1 were an elderly person.
2 Q. Uh-huh. Do you recall Mr. Marshall ever
3 mentioning to you a case where he suspected a
4 voter was intentionally impersonating another
5 voter at the polls?
6 A. I don't recall any.
7 Q. Do you recall Mr. Marshall ever mentioning to you
8 a case where he thought a voter was engaging in
9 some type of voter fraud?
10 MR. BOWERS: Object to the form. Calls for
11 hearsay.
12 Answer if you can.
13 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
14 Q. Go ahead and answer.
15 A. Say I don't recall; is that -- or what? Which
16 one? I'm sorry. You got me --
17 Q. Do you have --
18 MR. SHAPIRO: Actually, why don't we
19 just -- if the court reporter can -- there you
20 are. Could you just read what my question was?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, please.
22 (The following question was read back:
23 Q: Do you recall Mr. Marshall ever
24 mentioning to you a case where he thought a voter
25 was engaging in some type of voter fraud?)
19
1 MR. BOWERS: Same objection.
2 Answer if you can, please.
3 THE WITNESS: No.
4 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
5 Q. What do you recall, if anything, about
6 Mr. Marshall ever saying anything or making any
7 comments about a case involving voter fraud?
8 MR. BOWERS: Same objection.
9 MR. SHAPIRO: Let me -- that's a bad
10 question. Let me strike the question.
11 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
12 Q. What do you recall about Mr. Marshall ever
13 bringing to your attention a case where he
14 believed a voter had engaged in deception and was
15 knowingly trying to cast a vote that he wasn't
16 entitled to -- to cast?
17 MR. BOWERS: Same objection.
18 You can answer. That was just different
19 words, but still calls for hearsay. You can
20 answer if you can.
21 THE WITNESS: I don't recall any cases
22 where he had like the evidence that he told me
23 about, you know, that said like I've got this case
24 that I know is voter fraud. I don't -- and he --
25 you know, we talked every day about stuff, and he
20
1 would tell me about cases, too, but -- yeah.
2 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
3 Q. Okay. How good a job do you think Mr. Marshall
4 did at investigating cases of -- of potential
5 voter fraud?
6 A. I think he did a very good job.
7 Q. And why do you say that?
8 MR. BOWERS: Objection.
9 Go ahead and answer if you can.
10 MR. SHAPIRO: I'm sorry. What's the basis
11 for --
12 MR. BOWERS: Foundation. We haven't even
13 talked about her experience. How do we know she
14 has any clue as to whether he's doing a good job
15 or a bad job.
16 MR. SHAPIRO: Okay. Thank you.
17 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
18 Q. How long did you work with Mr. Marshall?
19 A. Two to three years as investigator, but then eight
20 overall.
21 Q. And during that time did you have the opportunity
22 to observe how Mr. Marshall was doing his work?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. And were you working with Mr. Marshall closely on
25 a regular basis for part of that time?
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21
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Okay. So, going back to my original question, why
3 did you think Mr. Marshall did his job well?
4 A. He was very thorough with call -- figuring out who
5 we needed to talk to and making sure that we
6 talked to those people, and he would even talk to
7 them multiple times if need be, and then he would
8 also -- if there was any question or anything, he
9 would always check with our general counsel and
10 see, you know, if he needed to do more or what he
11 needed to do.
12 Q. And Ms. Rhinehart, how confident are you that the
13 cases you and -- and Mr. Marshall closed out did
14 not merit further investigation?
15 A. I'm very confident.
16 MR. SHAPIRO: All right. Thank you. No
17 further questions.
18 * * *
19 EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. BOWERS:
21 Q. Ms. Rhinehart, we met earlier. Do you need to
22 take a break or are you okay?
23 A. I'm good.
24 Q. Okay. Good. My name is Butch Bowers. I'm a
25 lawyer from South Carolina, and I've been retained
22
1 to represent Governor McCrory in this litigation.
2 You probably did this at the outside and I
3 just missed it. Can you state your full name for
4 the record.
5 A. Candi Lynn Rhinehart.
6 Q. Okay. Where did you grow up?
7 A. In Marshall, North Carolina.
8 Q. And you've mentioned this, I think, but what
9 county is that?
10 A. Madison County.
11 Q. Okay. Is that where you live right now?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. And what's your date of birth?
14 A. /81.
15 Q. And are you registered to vote?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. When did you register to vote; do you
18 recall?
19 A. I think when I was 18.
20 Q. Okay. So --
21 MR. SHAPIRO: Oh, shoot. I did it again.
22 MR. BOWERS: Can we go off the record a
23 second?
24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by. We're going
25 off the record. The time on the monitor is 1457.
23
1 * * *
2 (Whereupon, there was a recess in the
3 proceedings from 2:57 p.m. to 3:02 p.m.)
4 * * *
5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going on the
6 record. The time on the monitor is 1502.
7 THE COURT REPORTER: Mr. Hale [sic].
8 MR. Bowers: John.
9 MR. O'HALE: Hello. Yeah, this is John
10 O'Hale, O apostrophe H-A-L-E, and I represent the
11 Duke intervenors.
12 MR. BOWERS: Okay. Got it. Thanks, John.
13 MR. O'HALE: Thank you.
14 BY MR. BOWERS:
15 Q. Ms. Rhinehart, to pick back up where we were --
16 where we were just talking, and I'll pronounce it
17 correctly; you went to Elon --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- right --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- for college? What town is that in?
22 A. Burlington.
23 Q. And what county is Burlington in?
24 A. Alamance.
25 Q. Alamance County, okay. What's the Elon nickname?
24
1 A. Phoenix now.
2 Q. The Phoenix.
3 A. When I started they were the Fighting Christians.
4 Q. Right. The Phoenix. Did you go to Elon
5 immediately after high school?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. Did you work while you were in college at
8 Elon?
9 A. I did waitressing for a couple months. I did --
10 what was that thing called? The survey -- the
11 political survey we call and do. I always
12 volunteered and did it. Elon always does a big,
13 you know, political survey to see the climate kind
14 of thing, and I always volunteered at that, but
15 that was it.
16 Q. That work, was that partisan or nonpartisan?
17 A. It was through school, so it was just broad
18 questions.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. So -- they did it through the political science
21 department. So it was more like a study kind of
22 thing for us.
23 Q. Okay. And then you graduate Elon in 2003?
24 A. '3, uh-huh.
25 Q. Okay. And then did you have a job --
REDACTED
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25
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. -- before --
3 A. I worked -- I came back home and I worked with --
4 I think it was called Agribusiness Center for the
5 county, and what we did a lot of was making
6 websites for local businesses so they could get
7 their products out and what they did.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. And for free we made them for them.
10 Q. And then you got hired by the State Board of
11 Elections in --
12 A. In October of 2004.
13 Q. And your initial job I think you testified for the
14 first two to three years you were an investigator?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And it's -- you correct me if I'm wrong, but it
17 sounds like, based on your testimony, you had zero
18 experience as an elections investigator?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Okay. How did you get that job? I'm serious.
21 How did you get that job?
22 A. Well, I had -- I think I applied before for
23 something there, too. And I knew -- we knew the
24 chair of the board, and he helped me, too.
25 Q. The chair of the state board?
26
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. What was his name?
3 A. Larry Leake.
4 Q. How did you know Larry Leake?
5 A. I grew up -- he's in Madison County.
6 Q. Okay. Would it be fair for me to say that he
7 helped you get that job?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would it be fair to say that without Mr. Leake's
10 help you wouldn't have gotten that job?
11 A. Probably. I probably wouldn't have applied for it
12 either.
13 Q. Okay. Have you ever worked in the polls like as a
14 poll watcher or a poll manager or elections
15 person?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. So you've never checked in voters?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. How did you become aware of this lawsuit
20 that brings us here today?
21 A. I got a call from Mr. Shapiro.
22 Q. When did you get that call?
23 A. A month or so ago. I don't really remember. It's
24 been a little bit.
25 Q. Okay.
27
1 A. Not that long ago but --
2 Q. Okay. And I should have asked you this earlier.
3 Are you represented by a lawyer here at this
4 deposition today?
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. Okay. So what did Mr. Shapiro tell you when he
7 called you?
8 A. That -- that he was working with the civil rights
9 division or whatever, and they had a case against
10 the State of North Carolina about the house bill
11 whatever number it is.
12 Q. 589?
13 A. About the voter ID, yeah. I was thinking five
14 something, about the voter ID law and just wanted
15 to ask me some questions.
16 Q. Do you know how he got your name?
17 A. I think Mr. Tutor.
18 Q. Marshall Tutor?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What is Marshall Tutor doing these days?
21 A. He's still an investigator at the Board of
22 Elections.
23 Q. Okay. What did you do to -- what did you do to
24 prepare for today's deposition?
25 A. I spoke to Mr. Shapiro.
28
1 Q. Okay. What did y'all talk about?
2 A. Talked about what I did, like what was my job,
3 what did I do while I was there, what kind of
4 cases did I investigate and how did I do that.
5 Q. Did he tell you what he wanted you to say?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did he suggest to you what he wanted you to say?
8 A. No.
9 Q. At any point in the phone call did he suggest what
10 he might want you to testify to?
11 A. Just what -- what my job was and how -- like how
12 that looked kind of, what my job was and what I
13 did while I was there.
14 Q. Okay. So you started in 2004 --
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. -- as an investigator --
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. -- with, as we've established, zero experience in
19 investigating election fraud, correct?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Is that yes?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. Had you had any -- any experience in
24 investigating anything --
25 A. No.
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29
1 Q. -- prior to that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Nothing. Okay. Did they give you any training on
4 how to investigate voter fraud?
5 A. Just kind of put me with Marshall to follow him
6 and work with him closely.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. My mentor I guess in a way.
9 Q. Okay. So they never sent you to any classes?
10 A. No.
11 Q. They never sent you to any -- did they -- did they
12 send you to any seminars?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Anything on the Internet?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Any -- any books?
17 A. A law book in front of me.
18 Q. A law book?
19 A. Yeah, the election law. Have you ever seen that
20 book?
21 Q. I have.
22 A. It's thinned down a lot though from when I first
23 started. It got thinner.
24 Q. All right. So had you ever read the election
25 law --
30
1 A. Prior?
2 Q. -- prior to taking that job?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. How did you -- how did you even know what
5 to look for your first year or so on the job?
6 A. I just -- like I said, most of the time I was
7 with -- when we would talk to people, just get
8 their statements, you know. Marshall would kind
9 of brief me what he wanted me to ask, and I would
10 just ask them and take the notes, and then we
11 would get together and kind of see what we had.
12 And then if, you know, further was needed,
13 Marshall may do it or have me call back if I
14 missed something.
15 Q. So during your time at the State Board of
16 Elections when you were -- when your job title was
17 investigator, were you really more of an
18 administrative person?
19 A. A lot of administrative stuff.
20 Q. Okay. And was it -- so Mr. Tutor was really the
21 investigator, correct?
22 A. He -- I mean, I was when -- you know, when there
23 was enough stuff to do, like if I was needed
24 there, or they would pull me if I really wasn't
25 because a lot of times we didn't have much to do.
31
1 Q. Okay. I'll get to that in a minute. But I'm
2 still focused on your experience and what you did
3 while you were there. I think you testified, I
4 just want to confirm, that the first time you
5 heard about this lawsuit was when Mr. Shapiro
6 called you about a month ago, correct?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Okay. Were you aware that House Bill 589 had been
9 signed into law?
10 A. I had heard -- I think I had heard that on the
11 news, yeah.
12 Q. Do you recall when you heard that?
13 A. Was it last year sometime maybe? Yeah.
14 Q. I'll tell you later but --
15 A. Yeah, I don't know.
16 Q. This is your deposition, not mine.
17 A. Yeah, I don't -- I don't keep up with election
18 stuff at all.
19 Q. Okay. So even -- even though you worked at the
20 State Board of Elections -- let me finish.
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. You worked at the state Board of Elections for --
23 A. Eight years.
24 Q. -- eight years and you finished working there
25 three years ago, you don't keep up with elections
32
1 at all?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. Do you know what information voters have to
4 provide today to be able to vote under House Bill
5 589?
6 A. What that requires?
7 Q. Uh-huh.
8 A. An ID.
9 Q. What kind of an ID?
10 A. Some kind of photo ID. You can get one at the DMV
11 if it's not a license. Are they providing -- is
12 the state providing other ID yet? I know that was
13 part of it when I was there, the talk about it,
14 how we would provide that other ID because they
15 were talking about it before I left.
16 Q. Okay. Did you vote in 2014?
17 A. I did not.
18 Q. Okay. Is it your understanding that the photo ID
19 was required to vote in 2014?
20 A. No.
21 Q. When is it required?
22 A. Is it -- what year -- next year.
23 Q. Okay. When your job title was investigator who
24 was the governor of the state at that time; do you
25 know?
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33
1 A. I don't know who was the first. Bev was in there
2 at the end. I don't --
3 Q. That's Bev Perdue, right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When did -- when did she take office; do you
6 recall?
7 A. No. I do not keep up with politics. That's
8 strange.
9 Q. When -- when did she leave office; do you know?
10 A. She -- she lost in the 2012 election, so 2013.
11 Q. Okay. But you don't know who the governor was
12 when you were an investigator?
13 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Irrelevant.
14 BY MR. BOWERS:
15 Q. You can answer.
16 A. I know Hunt was in there. Is that then? That's
17 all I can remember is those two.
18 Q. Okay. Was -- when you first became an
19 investigator, Larry Leake was the chairman of that
20 board?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. Yes?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Had he -- had he held political office
25 before; do you know?
34
1 A. Not that I'm aware of.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. Just on that board.
4 Q. Okay. Who were the other board members; do you
5 recall?
6 A. I don't know their names, no.
7 Q. Okay. Do you know if they were appointed by a
8 Democrat or a Republican?
9 A. Well, when -- while I was there it was all
10 Democratic governor. So it was three Democrats
11 and two Republicans.
12 Q. Okay. But you don't remember who the three
13 Democrats were?
14 A. Un-hun.
15 Q. Was Leake one of the Democrats?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Are you a Democrat?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you consider yourself a Democrat?
20 A. Un-hun.
21 Q. Is that no?
22 A. No.
23 Q. We need you to say yes or no.
24 A. Sorry.
25 Q. That's okay. I should have asked you this
35
1 earlier. Have you ever given a deposition before?
2 A. No.
3 Q. This is your first time?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. Never had to be in front of a lawyer before at
7 all.
8 Q. Okay. So Mr. Leake, your -- the guy that got you
9 the job or helped you get the job is a Democrat?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And chairman of the board?
12 A. He was.
13 Q. What's he doing now; do you know?
14 A. He's a lawyer.
15 Q. Okay. Do you consider yourself a Republican?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Are you apolitical? Is that yes?
18 A. I'm registered unaffiliated.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. So I go by the person.
21 Q. Okay. But it is fair to say that the board -- the
22 majority of the board when you were investigator
23 were Democrats?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. Okay.
36
1 A. Because it was a Democratic governor, so then the
2 majority changes according to the governor.
3 Q. Okay. Who was the director at the time?
4 A. Gary Bartlett.
5 Q. Okay. Mr. Bartlett is no longer there, is he?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. Okay. Do you know who the new director is?
8 A. Kim.
9 Q. Kim?
10 A. Westbrook Strach.
11 Q. Okay. I think she pronounces it Strach, but you
12 were close.
13 Did you work with her when she was -- when
14 she was -- before she became the director?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. Okay. Do you recall what her job title was?
17 A. She was campaign finance director.
18 Q. Okay. You referred earlier in your testimony when
19 Mr. Shapiro was asking you questions to doing --
20 to working on provisional ballots and
21 certifications; do you recall that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Let's unpack that and talk about each one
24 individually. What did you do with provisional
25 ballots when you were an investigator?
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37
1 A. That 2014 -- I mean 2004 election happened like
2 less than a month when I got there, so one of the
3 first things I had to do with provisional ballots
4 was what the county would do they would have a
5 list of names that voted provisionally, and they
6 would fax it to us, and then we would fax it to
7 the DMV for them to check their records to make
8 sure that the person hadn't registered at the DMV
9 or if they had; then the DMV would fax it back to
10 us, and then I would fax it back to the county.
11 So I was like a -- I guess the middleman of the
12 provisional, so just faxing it back and forth.
13 Q. Okay. And what about with certifications?
14 A. I helped with some trainings and stuff. We do
15 trainings -- several trainings a year according to
16 which year it is, if it's an even or odd number
17 year. It's how many trainings there are and it's
18 trainings for the county board; it's like all
19 hundred county boards come.
20 Q. And what kind of training would you provide?
21 A. There is -- there's some like some core competency
22 classes they have to have and different things
23 like election law, and I can't remember what all
24 else, but there are certain classes they have to
25 have, and then there's like elective courses, so
38
1 whatever -- and a lot of times it was like, you
2 know, what's going on, what's the law changes,
3 that was probably about always one of the things
4 we would train them like what's happening and then
5 the voting machines kind of stuff, and then we
6 would do -- they would have to become certified,
7 so once they got the certain amount of classes.
8 Q. Did you serve as an instructor?
9 A. I have -- I have done one or two, I think.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. But usually I was helping set up and run it, you
12 know, make sure everything is right.
13 Q. So the --
14 A. The behind the scenes.
15 Q. -- the behind-the-scenes admin person?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Making sure everything was right?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Okay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we've
20 established that before you got the job you had
21 zero experience in investigating and you got zero
22 training on the job, correct?
23 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Mischaracterizes
24 testimony.
25 BY MR. BOWERS:
39
1 Q. Well, you -- you can affirm it now; is that
2 correct?
3 MR. SHAPIRO: Can you restate the question,
4 please.
5 MR. BOWERS: Read it back, please.
6 (The following question was read back:
7 Q: Correct me if I'm wrong, but we've
8 established that before you got the job you had
9 zero experience in investigating and you got zero
10 training on the job, correct?)
11 BY MR. BOWERS:
12 Q. You can answer.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. So then how would you know if something
15 rose to the level of voter fraud or how would you
16 even know how to investigate it?
17 A. Because I did, you know, read some of the laws
18 which pertains to that, so I know -- and just --
19 it's kind of you know right and wrong, too. But
20 Marshall was also there. He was like my guide
21 so...
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. He was my -- I think -- he was like the senior,
24 you know, investigator and I'm like junior
25 investigator.
40
1 Q. So when Mr. Leake was chairman of the board and
2 Mr. Bartlett was --
3 A. Executive director.
4 Q. -- executive director, do you think that
5 investigating fraud was a priority for them?
6 A. I do not know.
7 Q. You don't know either way?
8 A. I do not.
9 Q. Okay. Did Mr. Bartlett ever come to you or
10 Marshall and say, "Hey, we got to weed out voter
11 fraud"?
12 A. He didn't come to me.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. And I don't know about Marshall.
15 Q. Did Mr. Leake ever come to you and say, "We have
16 to take care of voter fraud"?
17 A. No. We didn't interact with the board very much.
18 If they had something they would go to the
19 director.
20 Q. Okay. So you don't know if it was a priority for
21 the board --
22 A. Right.
23 Q. -- when you were there?
24 Okay. Are you aware that there's a
25 completely new board in place today?
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41
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. We've already established that you know
3 Ms. Strach is the director?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. Would it surprise you to say that addressing voter
6 fraud is a priority for Ms. Strach? You've worked
7 with her before.
8 A. I mean, I don't know what a priority -- I would
9 just think she would still -- like the campaign
10 finance part of it because that was her baby, so I
11 don't know.
12 Q. Okay. But my question is: Would it surprise you
13 if I told you it was a priority for her based on
14 your knowledge and experience with her?
15 A. I wouldn't know what would be her priority.
16 Q. So is that a yes or no or you don't know?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Okay. All right. Earlier when Mr. Shapiro was
19 asking you questions, you referred to a situation
20 where an elderly voter was accused of
21 impersonating a voter or voted twice?
22 A. Double.
23 Q. Double voting? Yes?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. And you said that -- that -- was it a he or
42
1 a she; do you recall?
2 A. I don't.
3 Q. Okay. Well, the elderly voter, it was your
4 conclusion that they didn't do it intentionally,
5 right?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Okay. How did you come to that conclusion?
8 A. We talked to the poll workers. We talked to the
9 family of that person. And the conclusion was
10 that -- and due to the person's health that they
11 weren't in a right state of mind.
12 Q. Do you recall how old that person was?
13 A. No, I don't, but definitely over -- over like 70s.
14 Q. Do you know what county that person lives in?
15 A. I -- I feel like it was either Winston-Salem,
16 Greensboro area so like Guilfordish area.
17 Q. Do you recall the race of that voter?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You met with their family, right?
20 A. No. That was Mr. Tutor.
21 Q. Okay. So who did you meet with?
22 A. I didn't, not on that case.
23 Q. Okay. Well, then how -- how do you know that
24 the -- you personally didn't ever meet with that
25 voter?
43
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. So how do you know that they didn't
3 intentionally --
4 A. Because Mr. -- that's what Mr. Tutor had told me.
5 Q. Okay. So you just relied on whatever he told you?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. Okay. Did you have any firsthand involvement in
8 that particular case?
9 A. No, sir.
10 Q. Okay. So you don't know one way or the other
11 yourself other than what Mr. Tutor told you?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this, Ms. Rhinehart: How is
14 a poll worker supposed to be able to detect voter
15 impersonating without a photo ID?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Okay. I've got some documents here that were
18 produced by the State Board of Elections. I'll
19 have the court reporter mark this one as Rhinehart
20 1.
21 (RHINEHART EXHIBIT 1, E-mails, Subject:
22 Voter Fraud Actions needed now, was marked for
23 identification.)
24 BY MR. BOWERS:
25 Q. Ms. Rhinehart, take a look at that and tell me if
44
1 you recognize it.
2 A. I don't remember it but --
3 Q. Okay. I mean, it's almost five years ago so...
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. You don't remember it?
6 A. No.
7 Q. But you don't -- do you dispute its authenticity?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. On the second page of this exhibit it looks
10 like someone named Donald Bolster sent an e-mail
11 to the governor's office alleging some level of
12 voter fraud; do you see that?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Yes?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. And then it looks like someone from the
17 Office of the Governor forwarded this e-mail to
18 someone named Johnnie McLean?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Do you see that on the first page of the document?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Okay. Who is Johnnie McLean?
23 A. She was the deputy director.
24 Q. Okay. And then Ms. McLean apparently forwarded
25 this e-mail to you; do you see that?
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45
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. And then you passed it on to Mr. Tutor and
3 Don Wright, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who is Don Wright?
6 A. He was our general counsel.
7 Q. Is he still there; do you know?
8 A. He retired it was this year or last year. It
9 might have been last year.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. He's retired recently.
12 Q. Okay. Okay. But you don't have any recollection
13 one way or the other about this allegation of
14 voter fraud?
15 A. No, I don't.
16 Q. Okay. Do you know if you or Mr. Tutor even looked
17 into it?
18 A. I wouldn't have at this time because I was
19 certification and outreach. That wasn't -- that
20 wasn't -- I wasn't an investigator at this time.
21 Q. Well, why did Johnnie send this to you then?
22 A. Because I was -- she's administration. We have
23 three divisions. We have IT, administration and
24 campaign finance, and she's administration
25 director, and she would a lot of times send these
46
1 to me so I could write up the letters. I guess I
2 was a good little secretary like.
3 Q. Okay. Okay. So you didn't investigate this --
4 A. No.
5 Q. -- certainly?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you know if Marshall Tutor investigated it?
8 A. I do not recall, no.
9 Q. Do you know if Mr. Tutor has a political
10 affiliation? Is he a Democrat or Republican?
11 A. I do not know.
12 Q. Okay. Did y'all ever talk about politics?
13 A. Not really.
14 Q. Okay. Would you please read into the record the
15 response that Mr. Tutor sent to you and copied Don
16 Wright? It's at the top of that --
17 A. That paragraph there?
18 Q. Yes, sir. I mean yes, ma'am. I'm sorry.
19 A. "A paragraph from Marc or someone in SEIMS, giving
20 the technical aspects of the system we use to
21 periodically do county registration, voter roll
22 maintenance should be the actual response with the
23 appropriate thank you for your concern. I am not
24 familiar with the study they are referring to.
25 Are you Don?"
47
1 Q. Okay. When you worked for Marshall --
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. -- was that sort of the standard response; do you
4 know?
5 A. I don't think so. I would say no.
6 Q. Okay. You would say no. What would the standard
7 response be when you worked with him?
8 A. That we would talk to the person and kind of
9 see -- and since they're alleging it in
10 Appalachian State, which is Watauga, we would talk
11 to the County Board of Elections and see what's
12 going on there.
13 Q. Okay. I know there could be other e-mails that we
14 don't have, but based on this e-mail, it doesn't
15 look like anybody -- it looks like more of a
16 brushoff, doesn't it?
17 A. Well --
18 Q. Just send them a can letter, tell him thanks for
19 his concern. It looks more like that than any
20 investigation, doesn't it?
21 A. And it looks like that, you know -- just to
22 describe to the person what we do in general.
23 Q. Right.
24 A. To make sure there's not voter fraud, yes.
25 Q. Okay. But it doesn't look like Mr. Tutor said,
48
1 "Hey, we need to look into this, does it"?
2 A. Not from this e-mail.
3 Q. Not from this. Okay. All right.
4 MR. BOWERS: I'm going to have the court
5 reporter mark this as Rhinehart Number 2.
6 (RHINEHART EXHIBIT 2, E-mails, Subject:
7 Voter Fraud Actions needed now, was marked for
8 identification.)
9 BY MR. BOWERS:
10 Q. If you start from the back, you'll see that this
11 is sort of a continuation of Exhibit Number 1.
12 Okay. And you see this looks like at the top a
13 later response -- the last date and timestamp on
14 Exhibit Number 1 was 9/29/2010 at 11:47 a.m.; do
15 you see that?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Okay. Yes?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then Exhibit Number 2 is the same date but at
20 12:25 p.m.; do you see that?
21 A. The last response?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. And you said Mr. Wright was the general
25 counsel at the time, correct?
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49
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Okay. And it looks like -- it looks like he sent
3 you a "Word document as to the issue of NVRA
4 compliance and VR compared to VAP population
5 prepared a couple of weeks ago. "You can prepare
6 the response from these documents."
7 Okay. So that looks like to me that
8 Mr. Wright is recommending that you don't need to
9 do any investigations, just use what we had from a
10 couple weeks ago; is that -- is that accurate?
11 A. Well, again, I wouldn't do the investigation, so I
12 would just be writing the letter to the man to
13 tell him what we already have in place --
14 Q. Right.
15 A. -- and what we do.
16 Q. But at this point you had served as a -- as an
17 investigator for a couple of years?
18 A. I had, but there -- there was another investigator
19 at this time with Marshall.
20 Q. Okay. But Marshall is copied on this e-mail,
21 correct?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. And you knew how Marshall worked. You testified
24 that he was -- that he did -- he was very diligent
25 earlier, correct?
50
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. But it looks like here that Mr. Wright is
3 just asking Marshall to prepare the response from
4 these documents without doing an investigation,
5 correct?
6 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection.
7 THE WITNESS: He definitely --
8 BY MR. BOWERS:
9 Q. You can answer. You can answer.
10 A. He's definitely asking me to prepare the response.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. He would not ask Marshall to write a letter.
13 Q. Okay. All right. But the response doesn't
14 include anything new from an investigation post
15 the complaint, does it?
16 A. No, but Marshall could have been investigating it,
17 but we give a letter, you know, to them right away
18 to tell them what we do.
19 Q. Okay.
20 MR. BOWERS: This is going to be marked as
21 Rhinehart Number 3. It's a simple one-page
22 exhibit.
23 (RHINEHART EXHIBIT 3, E-mail dated 11/2/04,
24 Subject: Possible absentee fraud, was marked for
25 identification.)
51
1 BY MR. BOWERS:
2 Q. Do you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Does that look familiar to you? Granted it was 11
5 years ago so you might not remember it but --
6 A. Not exactly, but I do remember doing some lists
7 like these, yes.
8 Q. Okay. Do you dispute this e-mail's authenticity?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. And this is back during the time frame when
11 you were at least in the investigator's office,
12 correct?
13 A. Yes, it is?
14 Q. Okay. And Mr. Tutor says to you, "These are
15 potential double voters that will have to be
16 investigated after the election." Do you see
17 that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. Do you recall how many double voter --
20 potential double voters there were?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay. Do you recall if they were investigated
23 after the election?
24 A. I can't -- I really don't remember that far back.
25 But I remember -- I don't remember if it was this
52
1 time or other times that we would get lists like
2 this and we would investigate them or we would
3 talk to county boards and go there and stuff.
4 Q. You see the date is November the 2nd, 2004. I
5 will tell you --
6 A. That was an Election Day.
7 Q. Was that Election Day?
8 A. Probably. Well --
9 Q. It's probably close to Election Day certainly?
10 A. Yeah. Yeah. It's the Tuesday after the first
11 Monday, right? So Monday would have been the 1st.
12 Q. Maybe.
13 A. So probably.
14 Q. Or it could have been a few days before Election
15 Day but -- look, I don't know. I didn't check.
16 So I'm not -- this is not a memory test.
17 A. Yeah. Yeah.
18 Q. If it's not exactly Election Day, it's certainly
19 during the early voting?
20 A. It's a Tuesday, so it could be, yeah. See's
21 Marc's e-mail, Tuesday, November 2nd, 2004?
22 Q. I don't see that.
23 A. Original message. Marc Burris Tuesday, November
24 2nd, 2004, at 3:05 p.m.
25 Q. Oh, I do see that. Yes. Okay. So this probably
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53
1 was Election Day.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. So at almost 8:30 at night on Election
4 Day --
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. -- polls have closed by that time, correct?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Mr. Tutor sends you this e-mail to your -- looks
9 like your government address, correct?
10 A. Yes. Yes, it is.
11 Q. Okay. Did you have round the clock access to your
12 government e-mail?
13 A. I could -- I could have, but I wouldn't have been
14 looking.
15 Q. Okay. All right. And would you say that
16 potential double voters on Election Day was an
17 important allegation?
18 A. This is absentee, though.
19 Q. Okay. Well -- but still on Election Day.
20 Absentee votes that were potentially double.
21 A. Well --
22 Q. Strike that. Let me start over. Let me ask a
23 more clear question.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. I will -- we can agree that the Excel spreadsheet
54
1 that was attached that I don't have a copy of, but
2 it was attached it says "possible absentee fraud,"
3 correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. Given that it was on Election Day, wouldn't
6 it almost certainly be that people who had voted
7 absentee and then voted a second time on Election
8 Day; isn't that probably what this is, the
9 potential double voters?
10 A. It could be.
11 Q. Okay. Do you recall Election Day 2004
12 investigating or helping Marshall investigate
13 potentially double voters that he said -- he
14 thought it was important enough to send it to you
15 at almost 8:30 at night on Election Day. "Hey,
16 we've got to investigate these."
17 A. Right.
18 Q. Do you remember doing that?
19 A. I don't.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MR. BOWERS: I think we're on Number 4; is
22 that correct? This is going to be Rhinehart 4.
23 It's also a one-page document.
24 (RHINEHART EXHIBIT 4, E-mails, Subject:
25 Undeliverable: FW: NC voter fraud revised
55
1 addition, was marked for identification.)
2 BY MR. BOWERS:
3 Q. Do you recognize this e-mail?
4 A. I feel like I may have tried to help Marshall with
5 the Facebook part of it.
6 Q. Are you trying to say that Marshall didn't know
7 how to operate Facebook?
8 A. He probably can, but he's not as computer savvy
9 as, say, a young person.
10 Q. Okay. So --
11 A. And I don't know if he even had a Facebook account
12 at that point. So I could get on mine and look up
13 people.
14 Q. Do you -- do you have any recollection of helping
15 him look up something about a Michael Vance
16 admitting voter fraud on a Facebook page?
17 A. Vaguely I remember this.
18 Q. Tell us what you remember the best you can.
19 A. I feel like there was a picture of him -- I can't
20 remember though. I think -- I don't know if it
21 was actual pictures of him doing something voting
22 or saying that he was going to do it in the
23 picture. But I -- just vaguely.
24 Q. And again, I don't have the attachments for
25 whatever reason.
56
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. But it does say that -- well, let me ask you this:
3 Who is Michelle Briggs?
4 A. No clue.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. I think just a citizen.
7 Q. Okay. What was done about this; do you know?
8 A. Well, according to his e-mail, I guess he
9 contacted Mecklenburg County about this man, and
10 then he -- looks like he wasn't even a voter. And
11 then people have been notified about the person.
12 Q. Do you remember seeing the screen shots?
13 A. I feel like I remember a picture, but I just
14 can't --
15 Q. Okay. The e-mail from Michelle Briggs to Marshall
16 Tutor was sent on Tuesday, October 26th, 2010, at
17 5:29 p.m., correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. And then his response is sent the very next
20 day at 7:40 a.m.; do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So approximately 14 hours later, overnight,
23 correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was that typical for Mr. Tutor to conduct such a
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57
1 thorough investigation of a complaint of voter
2 fraud?
3 A. I'm guessing this was during a One-Stop period.
4 Well, would it have been a One-Stop? Yeah. So
5 it's possible he could have been in the office,
6 and the county boards would have definitely been
7 in their office that night if it's during One-Stop
8 and they're getting ready for elections because
9 they would be having trainings and stuff, so it's
10 possible that he did contact them that evening
11 because Marshall would work late or you can see he
12 comes in early, too.
13 Q. Okay. But you don't in any way assert that he
14 stayed up all night looking into this, do you?
15 A. Not that I know of.
16 Q. Okay. And you see there in the second line of his
17 e-mail back to Ms. Briggs he says, "They have done
18 an in depth search." Do you see that, the
19 description of "in depth"?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. And from 5:29 p.m. to 7:40 a.m. the
22 following day, would you consider that an in-depth
23 review and search?
24 A. Not a time period, but what he's searching for is
25 to see that he's voted, and that's easy.
58
1 Q. It is easy?
2 A. The Mecklenburg County would just have to pull it
3 up and look at their records, and I don't even
4 know -- did it say -- I don't know if he said he's
5 even a registered voter because, you know, we have
6 that database of the whole registered voter, so...
7 Q. Do you know what the normal business hours of the
8 Mecklenburg County Board of Elections are or were?
9 A. Probably -- probably 8 to 5.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. But this time it's a little different because it's
12 One-Stop and training times.
13 Q. But you're speculating as to that; you don't know
14 for sure, do you?
15 A. It would have because it's October 26th, that last
16 week of October.
17 Q. Certainly, you know that it was during a One-Stop
18 period?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. But you don't know that they -- that anybody in
21 the Mecklenburg office stayed past 5 on that
22 particular day, do you?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Okay. And do you consider this an in-depth review
25 and search?
59
1 A. I don't know what he did.
2 Q. Okay. So is that you don't know one way or the
3 other?
4 A. I don't know, yes.
5 Q. When did you become a certification and outreach
6 assistant?
7 A. It was when I transitioned from investigator. So
8 it was either 2006 or 2007. I can't really
9 remember.
10 Q. Okay. Had you started -- had you started your
11 graduate studies by the time you transitioned?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. And where were you going to school?
14 A. North Carolina Central.
15 Q. What town is that in?
16 A. Durham.
17 Q. And you were living in Raleigh?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. How far of a drive is that?
20 A. About 40 minutes.
21 Q. Okay. Do you plan on appearing and testifying at
22 the trial of this matter?
23 A. I don't want to.
24 Q. You don't want to?
25 A. No.
60
1 Q. Why not?
2 A. It's intimidating enough in here for me.
3 Q. Mr. Shapiro is very intimidating.
4 A. He is, isn't he?
5 Q. I will concur with you on that.
6 A. It's not something I've ever planned on doing in
7 my life.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MR. BOWERS: Ms. Rhinehart, at this time I
10 don't have any other questions. Thank you for
11 your patience.
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
13 MR. SHAPIRO: Let's take a brief break and
14 go off the record.
15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by. We're going
16 off the record. The time on the monitor is 1547.
17 * * *
18 (Whereupon, there was a recess in the
19 proceedings from 3:47 p.m. to 4:03 p.m.)
20 * * *
21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going on the
22 record. The time on the monitor is 1603.
23 * * *
24 EXAMINATION
25 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
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61
1 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
2 Q. Ms. Rhinehart, just a few more questions.
3 You mentioned I think in your testimony that
4 Mr. Marshall supervised the work you did on the
5 cases you investigated, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And so how closely did he supervise your work?
8 A. He was always involved with whatever I did. I
9 would report back to him or -- and he would let me
10 know if I need to do more or if he needed to take
11 it or what we needed to do.
12 Q. And how qualified did you feel you were for the
13 tasks he asked you to do?
14 A. I felt qualified, typically just interviewing
15 people. It's pretty basic and easy for me.
16 Q. And after the interviews did you report what you
17 learned to Mr. Marshall?
18 A. I would report to Marshall.
19 Q. And to the extent that Mr. Marshall wanted to have
20 additional information from someone you
21 interviewed, did he have an opportunity to ask you
22 to obtain additional information?
23 A. He would if I needed to. He would maybe give me
24 some questions I needed to ask or he may call the
25 person hisself.
62
1 Q. So is it fair to say your role was really to
2 assist Mr. Marshall in investigating these cases?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Okay. Too many pieces of paper.
5 So we saw -- you were shown a couple --
6 strike that.
7 You were shown a few exhibits,
8 Ms. Rhinehart.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And the first two exhibits I believe you stated
11 during the cross-examination that they were
12 e-mailed to you while you were no longer an
13 investigator; is that correct?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. And during that time you did not -- you do not
16 know -- what do you know -- strike that.
17 What do you know about steps taken to
18 investigate the -- the matters referred to in
19 these e-mails?
20 A. I do not know what was done to investigate them.
21 Q. And with regard to Exhibit Number 3, which is an
22 e-mail that was sent to you while you were, in
23 fact, an investigator, looks like roughly 11 years
24 ago, correct?
25 A. Uh-huh.
63
1 Q. And you were asked about what you specifically
2 remember concerning this case, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is that right?
5 And I think you testified that you don't
6 quite remember what -- what you did with regard to
7 this case, right?
8 A. I do not, no.
9 Q. Okay. But in this e-mail -- this is an e-mail
10 from Marshall Tutor, and you are -- and correct me
11 if I'm wrong, you're being asked to investigate
12 whether individuals are double voting; do you see
13 that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And in the normal course of business in the work
16 that you did, were you to get this type of e-mail
17 from Mr. Marshall, who was supervising you, to
18 investigate whether individuals are engaging in
19 double voting, what would you do?
20 A. We would get the list because -- like this one,
21 the absentee list, so we'd get the list, and then
22 we would check with the counties and see if those
23 people actually voted on vote -- on voting day, on
24 the Election Day. So we'd have them double-check
25 their list there, and see, at this time, if you
64
1 catch it here before the ten days they have to,
2 you know -- they have like the ten days where the
3 absentee ballots are researched, so you could
4 catch it in between those ten days, and then you
5 would disregard that absentee ballot from that
6 person if you found that they voted on Election
7 Day also.
8 MR. SHAPIRO: Thanks so much. I have no
9 further questions.
10 MR. BOWERS: Thank you for your time.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Stand by. This
13 concludes the deposition of Candi L. Rhinehart.
14 The time on the monitor is 1609.
15 [SIGNATURE WAIVED.]
16 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 4:09 P.M.]
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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CANDI L. RHINEHART April 30, 2015
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65
1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA )
) C E R T I F I C A T E
2 COUNTY OF CABARRUS )
3
4 I, CINDY A. HAYDEN, RMR, CRR, Court
5 Reporter and Notary Public, the officer before whom the
6 foregoing proceeding was conducted, do hereby certify
7 that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing
8 proceeding was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of
9 said witness was taken by me to the best of my ability
10 and thereafter transcribed by me; and that the foregoing
11 pages, inclusive, constitute a true and accurate
12 transcription of the testimony of the witness.
13 I do further certify that I am neither
14 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the
15 parties to this action and, further, that I am not a
16 relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed
17 by the parties thereof, nor financially or otherwise
18 interested in the outcome of said action.
19 This the 6th day of May, 2015.
20
21 ____________________________
22 CINDY A. HAYDEN, RMR, CRR
23 Notary Public No. 20020910053
24
25
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DEAN ROBERTS May 14, 2015
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1 (Pages 1 to 4)
1
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
__________________________________
NORTH CAROLINA STATE )
CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, )
et al., )
)
Plaintiffs, )
)
vs. ) Case No. 1:13-CV-658
)
PATRICK LLOYD McCRORY, in his )
official capacity as Governor )
of North Carolina, et al., )
)
Defendants. )
)
LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )
NORTH CAROLINA, et al., )
)
Plaintiffs, )
)
and )
)
LOUIS M. DUKE, et al., )
)
Plaintiffs-Intervenors, )
)
vs. ) Case No. 1:13-CV-660
)
THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )
et al., )
)
Defendants. )
)
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )
)
Plaintiff, )
)
vs. ) Case No. 1:13-CV-861
)
THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )
et al., )
)
Defendants. )
______________________________)
DEPOSITION OF DEAN ROBERTS
2
1 THE 30(b)(6) DEPOSITION OF
2 THE UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE REPRESENTATIVE
3 DEAN ROBERTS
4 ________________________________________________________
5 1:00 P.M.
6 THURSDAY, MAY 14, 2015
7 ________________________________________________________
8
9 OGLETREE, DEAKINS, NASH, SMOAK & STEWART, P.C.
10 4208 SIX FORKS ROAD, SUITE 1100
11 RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA
12
13
14 By: Maren M. Fawcett, RPR
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
1 A P P E A R A N C E S2 Counsel for NAACP Plaintiffs:3 KIRKLAND & ELLIS
BY: RONALD K. ANGUAS, JR., ESQ.4 (Via teleconference)
655 Fifteenth Street, N.W.5 Washington, DC 20005
(202) 879-59016 [email protected] Counsel for League of Women Voters Plaintiffs:8 SOUTHERN COALITION FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE
BY: ALLISON RIGGS, ESQ.9 EMILY SEAWELL, ESQ.
1415 West Highway 54, Suite 10110 Durham, NC 27707
(919) 323-338011 [email protected] Counsel for the United States of America Plaintiffs:13 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
BY: JOHN A. RUSS IV (BERT)14 1800 G Street, N.W.
Room 7254-NWB15 Washington, DC 20006
(202) 353-773816 [email protected] Counsel for the Defendants State of North Carolina and
Members of the State Board of Elections:18
OGLETREE, DEAKINS, NASH, SMOAK & STEWART, P.C.19 BY: THOMAS A. FARR, ESQ.
4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 110020 Raleigh, NC 27609
(919) 787-970021 [email protected] Counsel for the Deponent:23 U.S. Department of Justice
BY: GILL P. BECK, ESQ.24 100 Otis Street, Room 233
Asheville, NC 2880125 (828) 259-0645
[email protected] [email protected]
4
1 Reported by:2 DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS
AND LEGAL VIDEOGRAPHERS3 BY: MAREN M. FAWCETT, RPR
4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 10004 Raleigh, NC 27609
(919) 649-99985 [email protected] -oOo-7 INDEX8 PAGE9 EXAMINATION BY MR. FARR 5, 108
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. BECK 10211 -oOo-12 INDEX OF EXHIBITS13 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED14 Exhibit 1 NC General Assembly 14
Joint Legislative Elections15 Oversight Committee
Transcript of Proceedings16 4-2-1417 Exhibit 2 Notice of Deposition 1418 Exhibit 3 Forsyth County Board of Elections 67
Board Meeting Minutes 9-3-1319
Exhibit 4 Forsyth County Board of Elections 6720 Board Meeting Minutes 10-15-1321 Exhibit 5 Photocopy of Postcard Mailing 7722 Exhibit 6 Excerpts of the Deposition of 90
Gary Bartlett, 6-24-1423
Exhibit 7 Declaration of Charles Underwood 9124
25 (Exhibits attached.)
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5
1 DEAN ROBERTS,
2 Having been first sworn or affirmed by the
3 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public to
4 tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
5 truth, testified as follows:
6 EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. FARR:
8 Q. Good morning, sir. Could you please state
9 your name for the record.
10 A. Dean Roberts.
11 Q. And, Mr. Roberts, we briefly met. My name is
12 Tom Farr. I'm an attorney here in Raleigh with Ogletree
13 Deakins and I'm one of the lawyers representing the
14 defendants in the lawsuit that we provided a notice of
15 deposition for, which has brought you here today.
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Have you ever been deposed before?
18 A. Yes, I have.
19 Q. Okay. So I won't go through a long list of
20 rules for you. I'm sure you understand the ground
21 rules. One thing I would ask you to do, please, is if
22 you don't understand a question, would you let me know?
23 I'll try to rephrase it.
24 A. Absolutely.
25 Q. I don't know very much about Postal Service
6
1 procedures, so I might say something that is just
2 completely off the wall; and if I do, just let me know
3 and I'll try to ask a better question.
4 A. Sure.
5 Q. If you want to take a break at any time during
6 the deposition, that's fine by me, just let me know.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. We're very informal with this group, so if you
9 do need to take a break, that's fine. It's no problem.
10 Okay. Now, could you, Mr. Roberts, tell me
11 what's your current position?
12 A. Senior manager post office operations for the
13 Greensboro district for the U.S. Postal Service.
14 Q. Okay. Do you supervise people in that
15 position?
16 A. Yes, sir. I have six direct reports and about
17 4,000 indirect employees.
18 Q. Okay. So you say you're the senior manager
19 for post office operations?
20 A. Post office operations.
21 Q. For Greensboro?
22 A. Yes, the Greensboro --
23 Q. What does that mean? What does Greensboro
24 mean?
25 A. The Greensboro district. In North Carolina
7
1 there's two districts that cover all North Carolina.
2 The Greensboro district is -- if you looked at the map,
3 it's mostly the top half of North Carolina. It starts
4 between Boone and Asheville and comes down by way of
5 Morganton, over to Statesville, down to Asheboro, over
6 to Greenville and the Outer Banks up to the North
7 Carolina-Virginia border.
8 Q. Okay. We're in Raleigh today.
9 A. Right.
10 Q. Is Raleigh in your district?
11 A. The City of Raleigh is not. I basically
12 oversee all the post offices except for the City of
13 Raleigh and the City of Greensboro. They report to my
14 bosses just like I do. That's a high-level postmaster
15 position.
16 Q. And who is your boss?
17 A. He would be the district manager, which
18 currently we have an acting district manager. His name
19 is Jason DeChambeau, D-e-c-h-a-m-b-e-a-u.
20 Q. And what does his district encompass?
21 A. He's the district manager. So I just see the
22 customer service side. He oversees everything,
23 including our processing plants. We have three plants
24 in this district that process mail as well. So there's
25 a plant in Raleigh over near the airport. There's a
8
1 plant in Greensboro, which is also near the airport.
2 And there's also what they call the network distribution
3 center that processes mail coming in and going out of
4 these locations.
5 Q. Okay. So I'm going to call them Jason
6 because --
7 A. That's fine.
8 Q. -- I'll butcher his last name, but Jason is
9 the head guy in the Greensboro district?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. And then who does he report to?
12 A. Our area vice president.
13 Q. Do you know who that is?
14 A. Yes. That's -- oh, my gosh, you caught me off
15 guard. Kristen Seaver, K-r-i-s-t-e-n, Seaver,
16 S-e-a-v-e-r, and she's the area vice president for the
17 cap metro area.
18 Q. What's that?
19 A. That encompasses mostly from Baltimore down to
20 Atlanta. There are seven areas within the country for
21 the Postal Service.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. So there are seven area vice presidents and
24 then within her area there are eight districts,
25 Greensboro being one of them. The other district that
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9
1 covers the rest of North Carolina is the mid-Carolinas
2 district.
3 Q. Okay. That's helpful. And then who does she
4 report to?
5 A. She reports to the deputy postmaster general
6 and the postmaster general.
7 Q. Postmaster general, he's the top guy, right?
8 A. She is, yes.
9 Q. She is?
10 A. Our first female postmaster general.
11 Q. What's her name?
12 A. Megan Brennan.
13 Q. Megan Brennan, okay.
14 Could you tell me a little bit about your
15 educational background?
16 A. I have a high school education and not a full
17 four-year degree. Most of it I got at nights, most of
18 it from the University of -- Desalles University in
19 Pennsylvania.
20 Q. Okay. Can you tell me -- I'll probably be
21 able to skip the rest of your employment history, but
22 what about your employment history with the Postal
23 Service, when did you start and could you tell me about
24 the jobs you've had?
25 A. Sure. I have a little over 26 years with the
10
1 Postal Service. I started out as a city carrier in
2 Pennsylvania and moved to the great state of North
3 Carolina back in 1993, and I moved into management in
4 1997. I was a supervisor customer service in a branch
5 in Fayetteville; and then from that position I moved to
6 manager customer service. So I managed a station branch
7 in Fayetteville.
8 From there I moved on to Charlotte, held a
9 couple different station manager positions in Charlotte;
10 and then I was -- for a little over a year I was the
11 manager customer service operations for the City of
12 Charlotte. So I oversaw 18 station managers in that
13 title. I worked between the station managers and the
14 postmaster position, that's an executive postmaster
15 position. So I handled the day-to-day operations of the
16 City of Charlotte.
17 From there I've also held three different
18 postmaster positions permanently; the first being
19 Lancaster, South Carolina, and then I was postmaster of
20 Matthews, North Carolina. From that, I went on to it
21 was a lower level manager post office operations over --
22 I oversaw the southeast corner of North Carolina. All
23 of these jobs were in the mid-Carolinas district, by the
24 way. So I oversaw 140 post offices, basically
25 everything east of I-95 and south of the Outer Banks.
11
1 From that position, I was promoted to postmaster
2 Wilmington, North Carolina.
3 Q. When did that happen? Let's put a time frame
4 on some of that stuff.
5 A. That was three years ago.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. And about two years ago I was detailed as the
8 acting postmaster of Charlotte for approximately nine
9 months. And then last July I got this promotion to this
10 position, July of last year.
11 Q. Okay. Can you give me an idea of the job
12 responsibilities that you're responsible for in your
13 current position?
14 A. Sure. So I oversee the day-to-day operations
15 of all of our customer service locations, so our post
16 offices and all of our delivery. So I'm responsible for
17 ensuring that all mail is delivered.
18 Q. I'm sorry?
19 A. All mail is delivered. We spend a lot of -- a
20 lot of my focus is more on driving efficiencies, saving
21 work hours, but also maintaining -- we're measured on
22 many different levels of service, whether it's service
23 to our customers at our counter, how well we deliver
24 things on time, whether it's a priority package or a
25 first-class piece of mail, the whole gamut. I handle
12
1 promotions, a lot of HR responsibilities, you know,
2 staffing. That's about it in a nutshell I guess.
3 Q. Okay. So are the -- if I'm using the wrong
4 word, let me know, but the guys that deliver the mail to
5 my house, do you call them letter carriers?
6 A. Yes. It's either one of two things; they're
7 either a city letter carrier or a rural letter carrier.
8 Q. Okay. And are those people in your district
9 under your supervision indirectly?
10 A. Yeah, unless you live in the City of Raleigh.
11 I don't -- I see everything around here, but I don't --
12 the postmaster of Raleigh reports to a different -- to
13 the same boss that I do. We're kinds of like peers.
14 Q. I got it.
15 A. But I just indirectly manage through a whole
16 lot of offices. She oversees the City of Raleigh and
17 then there is a postmaster in Greensboro. They're both
18 the same level offices and he also reports to my boss
19 directly.
20 Q. Okay. Are you responsible for Winston-Salem?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. Winston-Salem and Durham are the two
24 postmasters that report directly to me. All other
25 postmasters in this district report to a lower level
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13
1 manager in post office operations that reports to me.
2 So there's four managers that oversee -- it's kind of
3 broken up over on the coast, the Raleigh area, the
4 Greensboro area and then the mountains area.
5 Q. Okay. So, Mr. Roberts, could you tell me what
6 you did to get ready for this deposition today?
7 A. Just reviewed some of our manuals,
8 regulations, our Domestic Mail Manual, Post Operations
9 Manual, the Employee Labor Relations Manual as well as
10 we have different handbooks for our carriers, one is the
11 M41 for city carriers and then there's also the PO603,
12 which is the handbook for rural carriers.
13 Q. Did you look over any documents that came from
14 this case?
15 A. Basically, just the subpoena and then also we
16 had conversations on the phone. Yeah, and the -- and
17 the transcripts.
18 MR. BECK: Patrick had provided us that
19 document and I forwarded it to Mr. Roberts. That
20 was based on my request what he should review to be
21 prepared for the deposition and that's what Patrick
22 sent to me.
23 MR. FARR: Okay. Let's just -- can we put
24 this here for a second. We might mark it later.
25 MR. BECK: Absolutely, yeah. And just for the
14
1 record, it's the --
2 MR. FARR: Thank you, Gill, go ahead and do
3 that.
4 MR. BECK: It is the North Carolina General
5 Assembly Joint Legislative Elections Oversight
6 Committee transcript of proceedings held in
7 Raleigh, North Carolina on April 2nd, 2014
8 consisting of 127 pages.
9 MR. FARR: Okay. Can we just mark that now?
10 MR. BECK: Yes.
11 MR. FARR: All right. We'll mark that as
12 Exhibit 1.
13 (Exhibit 1 marked for identification.)
14 BY MR. FARR:
15 Q. And is this Exhibit 1, is this something that
16 you have reviewed in preparation for this deposition
17 today --
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. -- Mr. Roberts?
20 MR. FARR: Okay. Let's mark this as Exhibit
21 2, please.
22 (Exhibit 2 marked for identification.)
23 Q. So when you get done writing, Mr. Roberts,
24 could you take a look at Exhibit 2?
25 A. Yes.
15
1 Q. Have you seen this before?
2 A. Yes, that is what I have in front of me.
3 Q. And this is a notice of deposition that the
4 defendants issued in this case?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And one of the -- Mr. Roberts, this is just
9 another little rule about depositions, and if we were
10 just talking in your living room it wouldn't matter, but
11 you need to say "yes" or "no."
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And that's for the court reporter's benefit.
14 A. Got it.
15 Q. All right. So -- so you understand that you
16 were designated to testify on the two issues that were
17 listed in this Exhibit 2 for today?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Okay. So let's just -- let's just start with
20 topic one, which is procedures, processes and mechanisms
21 of how first-class mail with return postage is returned
22 to the sender, okay. Do you see that?
23 A. Yes sir.
24 Q. So what can you tell me about that?
25 A. Well, basically, if mail is undeliverable as
16
1 addressed, there's certain steps that it could possibly
2 go through and, you know, we're talking about
3 first-class mail. I'll refer to letter mail unless
4 there is a reason why I would need to refer to something
5 other than that. But letter mail generally comes into
6 our processing facilities from wherever it was mailed,
7 whether it was dropped in a collection box, whether it's
8 taken to the post office, whether a carrier is picking
9 it up at the time of delivery, or if there's possibly a
10 courier service bringing it to a location dropoff. All
11 mail gets run through machinery to either cancel it if
12 it needs to be. It takes an image lift off the mail
13 piece. It will apply a unique ID code to it if it's not
14 a bar-coded piece of mail, and then it goes through some
15 processes to determine where it's going to go to, if
16 it's going to stay locally, if it's going to go to
17 California or wherever.
18 From that point when it's running back through
19 the next piece of machinery, if a mail piece -- if the
20 recipient of that mail piece has a current change of
21 address on file, the system is cross-referencing all
22 change of address information. So when it's running
23 back through the next piece of equipment, it's a
24 delivery bar code sorter, it's going to flag that piece
25 of mail automatically to go back to the sender or to get
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17
1 forwarded depending on how the mail piece is endorsed.
2 So in regards --
3 Q. What do you mean by that?
4 A. Well, there's several different -- if there is
5 no endorsement by the sender and there's a good change
6 of address, then it's going to go to the next step where
7 it's going to apply the new address and send it to that
8 new address. If it's endorsed return service requested,
9 then it's going to be redirected to get the new address
10 applied, but to be sent back to the sender.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. There's another leg where when mail is then
13 getting sorted to the destination, if it didn't get
14 caught on the outgoing sort plan, there's a good chance
15 it will get caught on the destinating sort plan, and
16 again redirect it if there is a good change of address
17 in the system.
18 Q. Explain those two things to me.
19 A. Sometimes --
20 Q. I don't understand that.
21 A. Sometimes there could be a delay in the
22 systems or maybe it didn't -- it needed to be cleaned
23 up. Our systems are very good. It will read
24 handwriting and everything, but sometimes it can't make
25 a decision on some things or maybe the person left off
18
1 information. So it's going to continue then going to
2 where it's supposed to be going to, addressed to, but at
3 that same time we have locations in the country where
4 there's -- they call them remote encoding centers. When
5 the computers can't make a decision on a piece of mail,
6 an image is brought up on a screen in front of someone
7 sitting at a computer and they type in some information
8 to give the system what it needs to finalize the
9 address.
10 So if it's good, clean handwriting or good
11 typewritten -- or a good typed address, it catches it
12 right away. It might be later on in the steps, but
13 there's a really good chance that an automatable piece
14 of mail, letter mail, which is our best success rate at
15 sorting mail, 80 percent of the time it's going to catch
16 anything -- if there's a good change of address in the
17 system, it's going to catch it before it ever gets to
18 the carrier who would normally deliver that piece of
19 mail.
20 Q. Okay. So, just so I understand this, you said
21 there were two -- I heard you say there were three kind
22 of processes where the letter is checked or there was a
23 first computer process --
24 A. Right.
25 Q. -- a second computer process and then there
19
1 was some remote process where someone looks at a screen
2 if the first two processes don't catch it?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. Is that right?
5 A. Yeah, you're -- you're -- you've got it
6 correct.
7 Q. What was the first process called?
8 A. So we have a piece of equipment that goes
9 through a facer canceler machine. And that's where it's
10 taken the original image of the mail piece -- it does it
11 for every piece of mail going through -- and it
12 applies -- if you ever notice, a lot of your letters
13 have a really faint pink bar code on the back. That's a
14 unique ID tag for that piece of mail.
15 The next step on that mail when it's coming
16 off that machine, which has canceled it, it does
17 somewhat of a sortation on the mail, but not a very
18 fine. It's just broken down if it's local or maybe not
19 local mail. And then they take it to -- depending on if
20 it's local or not, there's two different operations.
21 They take it to one machine or another basically and
22 they run a unique operation and then it's going to --
23 when it goes through, it reads the bar code on the back
24 and it's going to apply a bar code for the destination
25 of where it's going to. The system by that time has
20
1 determined what the address was and it will apply the
2 bar code unless the mail piece -- you know, some mail
3 pieces automatically have a bar code on it by the mailer
4 and then it doesn't need that, but at that point it
5 should all -- most of the time it's going to know if
6 there's a change of address for that person for that
7 address.
8 And so say it was going to Greensboro, North
9 Carolina, instead of sending it to the bin where all
10 Greensboro mail is going to go, it's going to then
11 redirect it to go back to our postal auto redirect
12 system. So it's going to send all mail that has a good
13 change of address to a separate bin that they process
14 differently because that's all mail that needs to either
15 get forwarded or go back to the sender.
16 Q. Okay. So, Mr. Roberts, when we first started
17 out, and I'm not going to master this, I'm sure --
18 A. Well --
19 Q. -- nor do I expect you to explain every little
20 detail because that's just impossible, but you said
21 there were two automated processes, like you said
22 outgoing or something like that?
23 A. Right, and then destinating.
24 Q. So could you explain those to me?
25 A. Yeah. So say it couldn't finalize it, but it
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21
1 knew it had to go to Greensboro, the data for that mail
2 piece is still in our system and trying to -- it's
3 trying to decipher exactly what the final address is so
4 we can sort it. Well, if it gets to Greensboro to the
5 plant there, all processing facilities normally will at
6 nighttime run outgoing mail and at a certain time they
7 start running their incoming mail for the next day's
8 delivery.
9 So letter mail -- very little letter mail gets
10 sorted by our employees. Like your carrier probably
11 touches less than 5 percent of the letter mail that he
12 delivers to your house; 95 percent or better is sorted
13 by a piece of equipment putting it into the order that
14 he or she delivers the route in.
15 Q. Can I ask you a question?
16 A. Sure.
17 Q. So when the letter's first delivered to the
18 Postal Service, there is some sort of outgoing
19 evaluation done?
20 A. Right. So it determines if it's local or not.
21 And if it's local, it's sorting it down to the zip code.
22 So if it's a zip code in Raleigh, these machines are
23 massive, they might have 400, 500 bins on them, and so
24 everything for a local zip code will go to one specific
25 bin for then doing our destinating sorting on that mail.
22
1 Q. Okay. Destination sorting is different than
2 the outgoing sorting?
3 A. Outgoing, yes.
4 Q. So the outgoing sorting is -- do the letters
5 get thrown into like a broader group and then they're
6 sorted --
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. -- more specifically at the destination
9 sorting?
10 A. Right. Yeah.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. So it might be by the first three digits of
13 the zip code generally is how that mail gets processed.
14 Q. At the outgoing?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And then they send it to Greensboro and then
17 Greensboro processing plant does the destination sorting
18 to figure out which address it's supposed to go to?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Okay. And then you said there was like
21 another -- if they can't figure out for sure where it
22 goes at the destination, then they -- some person gets
23 an image of it and they actually look at it?
24 A. Correct. And then so they key in information
25 necessary, usually it's just a couple keystrokes to --
23
1 maybe it's finalizing 'cause it didn't have a proper --
2 the system knows, hey, that's not the right address. So
3 then they look at it and can determine, okay, maybe
4 it's, you know, because it's missing a suite number or
5 several other reasons why it could possibly -- it might
6 have read the street wrong; or it might be, you know, a
7 lot of times you'll see someone will say they live at --
8 on Merileaf Drive, but it's really Merileaf Place.
9 Well, our system is going to not be able to make that
10 decision. It only knows Merileaf Place. That's the
11 address of the street. So that human being then seeing
12 it says, well, this block range is on Merileaf Place and
13 there is no Merileaf Drive, so then they finalize it.
14 So it will get a bar code that's going to sort it to
15 that address on Merileaf Place.
16 Q. Okay. All right. Now, you said something
17 about the change of address. Could you tell me what
18 that is?
19 A. Sure. So when you move to another location
20 and fill out -- hopefully fill out a change of address
21 with us, and you've got a couple different ways, if you
22 do it online, a lot of times people complain that they
23 have to pay for it, but the reason why you pay a dollar
24 online for a change of address is because then you have
25 to enter credit card information and we have very
24
1 specific information on who entered that change of
2 address. So we don't have someone committing a fraud.
3 Otherwise, if you fill out a manual change of address
4 form, you can give it to your carrier or take it to a
5 post office and it requires that you fill it out and
6 sign it, swearing that it's accurate information.
7 So when that comes into our mail stream, those
8 cards get run on a piece of equipment or the data comes
9 into us from the online entries and so it triggers that
10 address that anyone by that name -- they have two
11 choices. They either fill it out for the individual
12 change of address like for Dean Roberts, or if I fill it
13 out for family then that means anyone with the last name
14 of Roberts that lived at this address should be
15 forwarded.
16 Q. Okay. So I got a couple questions about that.
17 A. Sure.
18 Q. Has the post office ever studied or do you
19 have any idea about how often people who move complete a
20 change of address form versus those that don't?
21 A. I'm sure we have an -- all I can tell you is
22 we don't do a study, but I'm sure there's data as far as
23 what is entered by the customer versus what's entered by
24 the Postal Service. Because if you just up and leave
25 and we know, okay, you're no longer at that address, the
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25
1 carrier holds that mail for ten days. So they hold it
2 awaiting a forwarding order.
3 At the end of ten days if they still haven't
4 gotten a change of address card, they generate it's a
5 specific change of address card that just says the
6 person moved, left no forwarding address. So I can't
7 tell you what percentage of the entire change of
8 addresses is generated by the employee versus generated
9 by customers. It's a lot smaller, but --
10 Q. What's smaller?
11 A. The amount that our carriers generate because
12 someone never put in a change of address is much, much
13 smaller than the amount that's generated by the
14 customers.
15 Q. Are there people who move that aren't caught
16 by either filling out a change of address form or the
17 carriers don't know it either, does that ever happen?
18 A. Well, the only way I could see it happening is
19 if someone that was living there just wasn't given the
20 mail back. If we had no reason to believe -- you know,
21 if a house is vacant we're not going to deliver the
22 mail. You know, if we can clearly see someone doesn't
23 live at the address, they up and moved out, we're not
24 going to keep delivering it and leaving it there.
25 Nor if we get mail for an addressee at a house
26
1 that's been vacant, but we don't see signs of someone
2 moving in, we're not just going to keep delivering mail.
3 The carrier knows, you know, because we get a lot of
4 fraud that way. We get drugs sent to vacant homes. You
5 name it. So they know that we don't just deliver to an
6 address if we know it's vacant.
7 But in the event say I live in a house with
8 three other guys and I up and leave and they just are
9 continuing to collect my mail, the carrier wouldn't know
10 that. There's not a means for us to know that if the
11 people that are still residing there don't give us the
12 mail back and say, hey, he left. He's no longer here.
13 Q. Okay. So, to some extent, the Postal
14 Service -- the Postal Service's knowledge of who lives
15 at an address depends to some extent on whether the
16 people who actually live there are giving the mail back
17 to the letter carrier?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Okay. Have you ever done any studies about
20 how often that people don't give the letters back to the
21 carrier?
22 A. I'm not aware of anything that we would have
23 looked at that. It would have to be a pretty small
24 percentage just from basic knowledge of all my years in
25 delivery.
27
1 Q. And like what type of situations do you think
2 could -- or living situations do you think could result
3 in people living in the house not giving the mail back
4 to the letter carrier? You mentioned one of them if
5 you're living at a house with other people and they just
6 didn't give your mail back. Can you think of others?
7 A. Usually that's the only case where it's still
8 the same people residing, but maybe one person moved
9 out. We have -- nowadays we have a lot of addresses
10 where we have multiple last names in an address. So I
11 think that's probably the most likely you would see that
12 occur. Otherwise, most people are going to give mail
13 back, say they move in behind someone and it doesn't
14 belong to them.
15 Q. But are you aware of any studies showing that
16 most people --
17 A. No.
18 Q. -- give the mail back?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. Could this be a problem, for example,
21 to a college dormitory?
22 A. Well, college dormitories we're not delivering
23 to the individual. We're delivering to the college. A
24 college generally will have a unique zip code and
25 they're entrusted to handle -- so they're the recipient
28
1 of the mail, not -- not the person attending school
2 there as far as what the Postal Service is concerned.
3 We deliver it to the college. They're required to
4 finalize delivery; or if it's not deliverable, they're
5 required to either forward it or return it to us as to
6 why it's not -- it's not forwardable.
7 Q. So, in those situations, the Postal Service
8 would be dependent upon the college to give you the mail
9 back for you to know the person no longer lives there?
10 A. Right. Yes.
11 Q. Has the Postal Service ever done any studies
12 about -- I have to ask this question right because it's
13 kind of convoluted. Have you ever studied the success
14 rate of letters being returned appropriately to the
15 sender because the person to whom the letter was
16 addressed no longer resides at the address to which the
17 letter was sent?
18 A. I tried to find out if there was anything that
19 we would have data to give us that, but we don't. The
20 only thing is the way some of these questions were put
21 in here, the return postage is part of the postage. The
22 class of the mail never changes because now it's going
23 back to the sender.
24 So all I can tell you, the Postal Service, at
25 great length, we live and breathe our service on every
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1 type of product that we handle. So first-class mail is
2 very closely scrutinized as far as our timeliness of
3 delivery. It's not -- we don't anticipate not getting
4 mail to where it's going, but what we do expect is an
5 acceptable level of accurate delivery for the time frame
6 that we say we should deliver in.
7 So we have, excuse me, service standards on
8 first-class mail. So if it's two days, we measure, you
9 know, did that mail piece get delivered in two days.
10 And the way -- we measure our service on first-class
11 mail by two different ways. One, internal information
12 based on those bar codes that get applied. If a mail is
13 getting bar coded on outgoing today going to a location
14 that should be delivered in two days, then within two
15 days we should see a destinating sortation on that bar
16 code that tells us, okay, that piece got into -- into
17 the sortation to where it should be delivered today.
18 So, in other words, during the night the plant
19 in Raleigh will be processing mail for delivery the next
20 day and so typical carrier in this area tomorrow might
21 receive five trays of letter mail. The first tray at
22 the very front is the very first delivery. The last
23 tray at the very back is the very last delivery of the
24 route. So we know that if it got that sortation into
25 what we call delivery point sequencing, we know there's
30
1 an excellent chance that that's getting delivered that
2 day.
3 So we base our percentage of how well we do
4 delivering the mail in our service standards by the data
5 we get from all those bar codes as well as from
6 commercial mailers. We have mailers in the Raleigh
7 area, Verizon, that might mail a couple hundred thousand
8 pieces of mail through our processing facility any given
9 night. We get data on every piece of mail because
10 they're what we call a full-service mailer. So there's
11 a unique bar code for every piece of mail that they're
12 giving us. We know when it was accepted into the system
13 and when it got to final sortation. So we know how well
14 we're doing on that.
15 And, on top of that, we pay IBM to externally
16 test our mail. So IBM has people that drop mail in
17 collection boxes all over the country and all over North
18 Carolina. So every day there might be a tester out
19 dropping at three different locations in the City of
20 Raleigh. And Raleigh would probably most days get three
21 or four drops any given day in a specific collection box
22 and it's dropped before the posted time for that
23 collection box to be picked up. And then that mail is
24 going to -- some of it might be local, some of it might
25 be two day, and some of it might be clear across the
31
1 country. They have receivers that get paid, so when
2 they get that mail delivered that day, they scan the bar
3 code, if it's got one, and they report -- it
4 automatically reports when they got that piece of mail
5 delivered.
6 Q. Okay. So you've gone into great length about
7 saying that you have information showing how long it
8 takes the letters to be delivered.
9 A. Yeah. So we have a lot of data that tells us
10 how good of a job we're doing getting mail delivered on
11 time. We don't have a data stream that would tell us
12 what gets returned and if it ever gets returned.
13 Q. I am going to ask you some questions about
14 that in a second.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. But -- so you're responsible for the northern
17 half of North Carolina except for Raleigh and --
18 A. Greensboro.
19 Q. -- the City of Greensboro?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. So, in those areas you're responsible
22 for, do you know how -- do you have the data on how long
23 it takes the different post offices to deliver
24 first-class mail?
25 A. Yes. We get different reports that tell us
32
1 how well -- on our internal stuff we'll know down to the
2 zip code and even to the carrier route where it's going.
3 On the external stuff, to make sure that everyone is on
4 the up and up, we never know the zip code it's going to.
5 We only know the three digit. So if it's going to -- if
6 it's going to a 277, we know that it was going to
7 Durham, but we never know anything greater than that.
8 So this way we can't ever play games with the system,
9 you know.
10 Q. But what I wanted to know is Wake County,
11 you're responsible for Wake County?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Not Raleigh?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. Okay. So when I go mail something in Wake
16 County, do you have data on how long it's going to take
17 that to get to the person who I mailed it to for Wake
18 County?
19 A. Yes, I won't be able to tell you a specific
20 piece of mail. I just know what we're averaging like on
21 any given day, any given week or any given month or
22 year.
23 Q. That's okay. For the areas you're responsible
24 for, how long does it typically take to get a letter
25 delivered once it's turned over to the Postal Service by
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1 the --
2 A. Anywhere in the state of North Carolina it
3 should be delivered within two days. That's our service
4 standard and our goal is 96 percent on all first-class
5 mail delivery --
6 Q. And is that --
7 A. -- within their service standard. So whether
8 it's North Carolina two day, you know, parts of
9 Virginia, South Carolina is two day. You get much
10 farther out and then it becomes three day. So our goal
11 for everything composite is that we make 96 percent on
12 time within our service standard.
13 Q. Okay. So the service standard is two days
14 from when to when? I mean, what's the beginning and
15 what's the end?
16 A. So if you're getting it in time for our
17 collection today, if you're putting it in a collection
18 box after the time posted, it's tomorrow's mail. It's
19 not going to get picked up till tomorrow.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. Because we typically pick up at or just after
22 the time on the box. But if it's in our hands today, by
23 what we say is our time to accept mail, anywhere in
24 North Carolina it should be delivered -- today is
25 Thursday, it should be delivered by Saturday unless it's
34
1 going to a place that's closed that doesn't accept mail
2 on a Saturday.
3 Q. Okay. And in your district -- is it fair to
4 call what you supervise as a district?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Do you have a 96 percent success rate?
7 A. It ebbs and flows. The one thing that hurts
8 us more is not local. We do real well on the two day.
9 It's more some of the three day and some of the
10 commercial mail that at times brings our scores down.
11 And it might be worthwhile mentioning --
12 Q. Does it -- is there a different -- are
13 different data for different post offices, am I
14 describing that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What are the subunits within your district
17 called?
18 A. Well, post offices. So we get some data down
19 to the post office level. Typically a lot of the
20 reports we look at is broken down by three digit. So if
21 it's 276, 275, 277, 282 for Charlotte, something like
22 that. Normally we look at service on first class at
23 that. And then if -- if there's something that sticks
24 out, then we dig into the data more as far as to see is
25 there correlation, is there a specific zip code that's
35
1 not performing well or is it a specific processing
2 facility.
3 Q. So the post office can have multiple -- in
4 fact will have multiple zip codes?
5 A. Some. Some have only one zip code.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. Some have -- a lot of your area post offices
8 you get outside of Raleigh, some might have two.
9 Sometimes they'll have a unique zip code for their --
10 for their box section, depending on what size of a post
11 office it is.
12 Q. Okay. So like a Fort Bragg, is that one zip
13 code, for example?
14 A. Well, it's actually two. It's a zip code for
15 what we deliver to and then there's a zip code for the
16 military side. 'Cause we treat the military mail, it's
17 real similar to universities, which I've been over the
18 mail going to Fort Bragg already as well as to Camp
19 Lejeune. So there's always two sides of the post office
20 on the military base.
21 So the mail that's going to the soldier that's
22 in a military unit that lives in the quarters, that gets
23 handed over to the military side, but then in -- on a
24 lot of our military bases we also -- the Postal Service
25 will deliver mail to base housing. So there's usually
36
1 at least two separate zip codes that way.
2 Q. Okay. So there's like a zip code for the
3 soldiers at Fort Bragg who are living in the barracks
4 versus --
5 A. Yeah, I think that was 28309. 28307 was what
6 we delivered to on the base.
7 Q. 28307 is what the Postal Service delivers to?
8 A. Yeah. It's been a long time, but I'm pretty
9 certain.
10 Q. Do you know what the other zip code is?
11 A. I think it's 09.
12 Q. So 09 is just delivered to --
13 A. Yeah, so the way we --
14 Q. Mr. Roberts, like if we're having a
15 conversation at home, this is perfectly great, but,
16 again, for the court reporter, please try to let me
17 finish my question.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. I mean, I know what you're doing and that's
20 fine by me. I'm not offended by it at all, but it's
21 just to help the court reporter out.
22 So at Fort Bragg people who got their own
23 address, like a street address or something that the
24 Postal Service letter carrier will deliver the mail to,
25 would have a zip code of 28307?
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1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then if it was mail that the Postal
5 Service was giving to the military to deliver to the
6 person it would be 28309?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. And the people who are living in 28309
9 would be people who have lived in places like barracks
10 or?
11 A. Right. Their mail is addressed to the unit.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. So it might be Charlie Company, Second in the
14 325 82nd Airborne Division.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. They don't have an address. They have a unit
17 and so that mail we just roll through the door and give
18 it to the military postal people that then get that mail
19 to the -- to the mailroom clerks that come from the
20 different units.
21 Q. If somebody gave a barracks address at Fort
22 Bragg using the 09 zip code, would the Postal Service
23 not deliver to that address?
24 A. We don't -- we wouldn't handle a change of
25 address from a military unit just like we wouldn't from
38
1 a university.
2 Q. No. You missed my question, I'm sorry.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Say some soldier put down a street address to
5 have his mail delivered to, but he listed the 28309 zip
6 code, would the Postal Service deliver to that address
7 or would that be something that the Postal Service would
8 turn over to the military to have them deliver it?
9 A. There's a good chance that the system, if it's
10 a good address that we normally deliver to and it's just
11 they had an error with the zip code, that would be
12 something that possibly someone sitting in front of the
13 computer would have said, oh, that's the wrong zip, it
14 should be 28307, and it would be corrected before it got
15 to us and the bar code applied.
16 If it's -- if it -- otherwise, if it's got a
17 bad zip code on it, the system is just going to kick it
18 out to a manual mail stream and then clerks sort it as
19 best they can and so something like that would generally
20 be given to the military if it didn't belong on Fort
21 Bragg otherwise that we deliver.
22 Q. Would there be addresses at Fort Bragg that
23 the Postal Service would not deliver to?
24 A. The addresses -- there's addresses on Fort
25 Bragg that we don't deliver to.
39
1 Q. That was my question.
2 A. Yes. It would normally still go into the
3 hands of the military.
4 Q. That was exactly what I wanted to ask.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Okay. All right. So does the delivery time
7 from the Postal Service receipt to when the recipient
8 actually gets it, you're saying that that does vary
9 amongst the different post offices under your authority;
10 are some better than others?
11 A. Not historically better. I mean, normally one
12 of the things that drives that success rate is if we
13 have -- if we have a day that's not as good on service,
14 it might be because there was a service failure at a
15 processing facility where maybe, you know, a tray of
16 letter mail didn't get the final sort or a container of
17 mail didn't get worked in time for the final sort.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. Typically, we would know if we had a problem
20 office and we live and breathe by service. So if
21 certain zip codes or areas look like they're not
22 performing well, we have people that go in and do
23 reviews to see that we're taking all the steps we should
24 to make sure everything that can drive that service is
25 being done and ensuring every piece of mail is being
40
1 delivered every day, that their data from their edit
2 books that triggers all this data for them to sort the
3 mail is up to date. So if you've got a high-growth area
4 like Holly Springs that post office is keeping up on top
5 of all their new deliveries and entering them in the
6 system so that the mail can get sorted properly, you
7 know.
8 So if a specific zip code or post office isn't
9 doing well, we look at one set. If it seems to be a
10 plant issue, then there's things we look at in the
11 specific plant that doesn't seem to be performing as
12 well.
13 Q. Okay. Now, let me just see if I can ask a
14 more specific question. I haven't read Exhibit 1, but I
15 think I know what it is and you say you've read this
16 getting ready for your deposition today?
17 A. Yes. I looked through it, yeah.
18 Q. Is there something in there about the mail
19 verification process that the State Board and County
20 Boards of Elections use for people who are new
21 registrants?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You read that part?
24 A. Yeah, so we're -- right. If it comes back,
25 then they send it back out again, attempt.
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41
1 Q. Right. Right. Okay. So now what I wanted to
2 ask you is are you -- the mailings that would be done to
3 voters who just registered to try to verify their
4 address that would be done by the State Board of
5 Elections, the County Board of Elections, would that be
6 what you would describe as local mailings?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And would you be pretty confident that over a
9 span of time that 96 percent of those letters would be
10 delivered within two days of the Postal Service
11 receiving those letters?
12 A. Absolutely.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Up -- if I can elaborate a little bit.
15 Q. Sure. Anytime you want to do that, that's
16 fine.
17 A. Up until just this year we had overnight,
18 guaranteed overnight first class for local mail. For
19 reasons -- financial reasons and for us to be more
20 efficient, we got away from it because it enables us to
21 do a whole lot more with less resources. But when we're
22 measured on even just overnight first-class mail, it was
23 very typical to run 98 percent, which meant if you put
24 it in a collection box today going somewhere that gets
25 processed out of the Raleigh plant, which would
42
1 basically be from this side of Burlington to like Rocky
2 Mount, there was a 98 percent chance that it was going
3 to get delivered tomorrow.
4 Q. Okay. So the area that you're responsible for
5 now it includes urban areas and it includes rural areas?
6 A. Absolutely.
7 Q. And do you think that two-day goal you shoot
8 for and achieve 96 percent of the time, does that apply
9 to both urban areas and rural areas?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. Now -- so let's talk about the reasons
12 why the letter would be returned. I think you said that
13 it might be returned during the outgoing or what was the
14 other word you used?
15 A. Destinating.
16 Q. Outgoing, destination processing, either one
17 of those steps, could -- could the change of address
18 form be determined at either one of those steps?
19 A. Yes. Yeah. If there's a good change of
20 address, there's a really strong responsibility it will
21 get caught in one of those processes.
22 Q. Okay. And how long would that take from the
23 time the person mailed or delivered the mailing to the
24 Postal Service, how much time would elapse before the
25 change of address would be caught at either the outgoing
43
1 or -- again, what did you say?
2 A. Destinating.
3 Q. Destination, I've got to write that down so I
4 don't forget it.
5 A. That's okay. So, if it was mailed today, it
6 should get -- if it gets caught by the system in the
7 outgoing process, it's going to get caught today. We
8 usually clear that outgoing mail by about 11 o'clock at
9 night I think is a safe estimate. There's some nights
10 where it's later, but there's a lot of nights where it
11 might be a lot earlier. So all outgoing mail gets
12 processed.
13 Q. So at the outgoing stop, if the computer
14 process used at the outgoing step, if that had -- if
15 they were aware or if the machine there was aware of a
16 change of address form being filed, it would be caught
17 the same day the person put it in the box to the Postal
18 Service?
19 A. Are you saying for the change of address or
20 for the piece of mail?
21 Q. Piece of mail.
22 A. Yeah, so it should be caught that night, you
23 know. And so we're talking about something being mailed
24 from a Board of Elections, right?
25 Q. Yeah.
44
1 A. So I'm not sure if that's -- I guess there's
2 105 counties, so it could -- there's a lot of ways I
3 guess it could be mailed, whether it's handwritten or
4 typed, but there's a good chance --
5 Q. It's generated -- it's generated by an
6 electronic system.
7 A. Okay. So there's a great chance on the
8 outgoing it's going to get isolated and saying, hey,
9 don't send it on to where the address is because there
10 is a good change of address in the system for it.
11 Q. And what would happen to that piece of mail
12 then?
13 A. So all that mail gets staged and normally in
14 the morning they start running the mail for what we call
15 PARS mail, postal auto redirect system, which is
16 basically all mail that's not deliverable. So that
17 would then get -- so if you mailed it today that would
18 normally be run tomorrow during the day and get -- for
19 that purpose where we're talking a piece of mail that
20 has a return service requested endorsement, it would get
21 the new address applied, but it would be returning back
22 to the sender because of that endorsement by the sender.
23 Q. So they'd actually put like a little sticker
24 on the mail?
25 A. Yes.
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45
1 Q. I'm going to show you one that I've got later
2 today.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. The little sticker should say that the address
5 is not appropriate and then if they know what the actual
6 address is, it should be on the yellow sticker?
7 A. Right. Otherwise, it might have a reason as
8 to why it was being returned, if they moved, left no
9 address to forward to. There's several reasons. Could
10 be deceased. So that mail would get the new stuff
11 applied tomorrow and typically be delivered back to the
12 sender the next day.
13 Q. Okay. All right.
14 A. Every day we monitor -- not do we only monitor
15 in our plants that they processed all mail for delivery
16 today, but we monitor what they have on hand as far as
17 that redirect mail are forwardable mail that they have
18 to process. So they would --
19 Q. Do they track how long it takes to get that
20 mail returned to sender?
21 A. Yeah. They get -- they get -- not really that
22 it got returned to sender, but they can monitor and they
23 know if they have old mail in the building 'cause they
24 know, okay, there's bar codes that the system is looking
25 for another hit on that mail piece and it hasn't gotten.
46
1 So they can really dig into -- the bar code has really
2 changed how we process mail and the timeliness and
3 effectiveness and the efficiency of how we process mail
4 nowadays.
5 Q. Mr. Roberts, let me just stop you for a
6 second. So at the outgoing has identified letters for
7 which there is a change of address form and they're kind
8 of like segregated?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Okay. And then you have data I think you said
11 showing how long it takes the Postal Service to
12 accomplish that step?
13 A. They have -- we have reports that will give us
14 feedback on how long certain classes of mail are in a
15 plant, plus it will also trigger reports if we ran mail
16 late, in other words, not in time for delivery. So even
17 if we don't know exactly where it came from, we have a
18 report system that will tell us, hey, you ran last night
19 10,000 letters that were anticipated to be delivered the
20 day before and then, you know, when we have a failure
21 like that they'll typically dig into the data and try to
22 determine maybe where it came from, but also was there
23 something unique about where it was going to, you know,
24 was it going to a specific zip code so that it missed a
25 sort plan for that zip code.
47
1 Q. Okay. But I was interested in the ones that
2 you pulled out because the outgoing computers figured
3 out there was a change of address filed with the Postal
4 Service. My question is do you keep track of how
5 long -- once those letters are identified how long it
6 takes to get them back to the sender?
7 A. We don't really track how long it takes to get
8 back to the sender, but that it got processed.
9 Q. What does that mean?
10 A. So that it got the next step of the process.
11 So the stuff that was isolated tonight, the mail that
12 was isolated tonight gets processed tomorrow and then it
13 would be able to go either -- you know, some of that
14 mail is good forwardable mail, so it's going to get a
15 new address applied. So say they lived in Burlington,
16 but now they moved to Fayetteville, well, then that mail
17 is going to go on to Fayetteville to get processed to be
18 delivered in Fayetteville versus --
19 Q. What I'm interested in is the ones where they
20 don't --
21 A. Going back?
22 Q. Yeah.
23 A. That would get processed back to the zip code
24 that it was -- the sender is coming from.
25 Q. Okay. How long would that take once those
48
1 letters are segregated to when it's actually received
2 back by the sender?
3 A. It should be by the next day, the next
4 delivery day, which, you know, in regards to this being
5 Board of Elections, I'm not sure -- too sure of how many
6 we deliver to on a Saturday; or for the bigger ones that
7 might be a caller service that pick up, they might not
8 pick up on weekends either, but generally the next
9 delivery day it should be coming back to them.
10 Q. And does the Postal Service track that to know
11 whether that actually happens?
12 A. Not that I'm aware of, just because we
13 generally know if we did or didn't get the mail
14 delivered. We report on if there's delayed mail
15 volumes, but now if there was data that caused us to
16 believe, hey, something was delayed then we would
17 possibly dig into it, but we're more geared towards
18 looking towards the data that supports that we're
19 getting stuff delivered.
20 Q. Right. So you're looking at -- for the
21 letters that go to the person to whom they're addressed,
22 you track that data for how long it takes the recipient
23 to receive the letter from when it's mailed, but you
24 don't track how long it takes to get the letters for
25 which there's a change of address but no forwarding
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1 address back to the sender, you don't have any data
2 tracking that?
3 A. None that I am aware of.
4 MR. FARR: Okay. This is a good stopping
5 point. Let's take a break.
6 (Brief recess.)
7 BY MR. FARR:
8 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Roberts, I've got a couple
9 questions I wanted to ask you about Fort Bragg. Did I
10 understand you to say there's two zip codes there and
11 the Postal Service is responsible for one and the
12 military is responsible for the other?
13 A. Yeah, there's at least two zip codes. There
14 might be another one or two unique zip codes, but
15 typically there is one zip code that we deliver to for
16 residential delivery.
17 Q. And the military would be responsible for the
18 other zip codes?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Now, is that -- do you have a contract
21 with the military?
22 A. I don't necessarily know that there's a
23 contract, but there's regulations that govern the
24 military side of the post office and I know we train --
25 typically we would have training sessions or the
50
1 military would do training sessions, those that were
2 trained on training on the postal regulations. And I
3 can just speak from experience because many, many years
4 ago I was a mail clerk at Fort Bragg in my -- I was a
5 backup mail clerk for my unit at Fort Bragg back in the
6 '80s. So I had to go through training to learn on how
7 to handle the disposition of the mail, whether it was,
8 you know, delivered to the person or what I would have
9 to do with the mail if they were no longer in the unit.
10 Q. Okay. Well, that's helpful. So, based upon
11 your knowledge working at Fort Bragg or, you know, all
12 your other positions with the Postal Service, do
13 military personnel who are using the military zip code,
14 would those individuals sometimes have post office boxes
15 to have their mail delivered?
16 A. Yes, and a lot of them do at the Fort Bragg
17 location. It's a rather large P.O. box section. That's
18 also something that we deliver to. That's -- so if
19 it's -- if it's going to a P.O. box on Fort Bragg,
20 Postal Service employees maintain those boxes. They
21 rent them out. So they pay the Postal Service for the
22 P.O. box just like anywhere else.
23 Q. So the post office box that the individual
24 soldiers or personnel have, all of those would be
25 addresses that the Postal Service would deliver to or
51
1 would any of them be delivered by the military people?
2 A. Not to the P.O. box. It would have to be
3 addressed to the P.O. box though. So there's a lot of
4 soldiers that don't like having their mail going to the
5 unit. So they'll rent a P.O. box. So they use the P.O.
6 box as their mailing address. And that might be -- I'm
7 trying to remember, but that might be like 28308. The
8 box section might have a unique zip code on Fort Bragg.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. But to the P.O. boxes at either Fort Bragg or
11 at Camp Lejeune we maintain those boxes. We deliver the
12 mail to those boxes, not the military side.
13 Q. Okay. All right. And let's go back to the
14 Postal Service catching the letters that have got a
15 change of address. In the outgoing step we talked
16 about, if the person has moved or no longer lives at the
17 address, but they haven't filed a change of address, the
18 Postal Service would have no way of knowing that that
19 person had moved, right?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Okay. Do you follow my question?
22 A. Yeah. Can you repeat it again?
23 Q. Okay. Let's say somebody's moved, they didn't
24 fill out a change of address, would that particular
25 person be flagged as someone that no longer resides at
52
1 the address to which the letter is addressed?
2 A. Only by the knowledge of the carrier, if they
3 catch it and that's what --
4 Q. That's a couple steps down the road from where
5 we're talking right now. At the outgoing processing --
6 A. Right, you know, the processing system
7 wouldn't know. The only thing it's looking for is a
8 change of address on file cross-referencing the database
9 with what's on file and mail going to that address.
10 Q. Okay. Now, before the letters would get to
11 the postal clerk or the carrier, would there be any
12 other step along the way where a change of address might
13 be found?
14 A. It might pick it up when it's doing the final
15 sort if there was some data that had resolved on that
16 mail piece, so when that mail is being sorted to the
17 delivery point sequence for the carrier to deliver the
18 mail.
19 Q. Is that after the destination processing?
20 A. That is the destination processing basically.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. So when they're sorting that letter mail on
23 the machine, on the machinery for delivery, there is a
24 small percentage that didn't get caught on the
25 originating side that -- there's a bin on that machine
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1 for redirect mail. So in case it didn't catch it on the
2 outgoing process, it could possibly catch it if -- you
3 know, and the reason why it might not get caught till
4 then is, like I said, if there was -- at the time it was
5 doing the outgoing it couldn't determine properly if
6 there was a change of address for that person or not,
7 but if it got resolved in that time frame by maybe
8 someone looking at a computer screen or, you know,
9 sometimes there's a buffer on all the data.
10 Not to draw it out longer than it needs to be,
11 but you're talking all over this country millions and
12 millions of pieces of mail, millions and millions of bar
13 codes, so sometimes the systems are a little bit slower.
14 So it could be that there is a buffer in the data to
15 where it didn't catch it in time for the outgoing, but
16 it will catch up to that mail piece when it's getting
17 the final sortation destinate.
18 Q. Okay. When would that happen, how many days
19 after the letter is first delivered to the Postal
20 Service?
21 A. Okay. So if it's -- if it's mailed to us
22 today, it would typically happen by the next evening for
23 the second day delivery.
24 Q. Okay. And then just ask the same question I
25 asked before, has the Postal Service tracked the number
54
1 of letters for which a change of address form has been
2 completed and the letter's not flagged until the
3 destination process?
4 A. Not that I'm aware of. That doesn't mean that
5 we wouldn't be able to possibly dig into the data and
6 know. We know that 80 percent -- you know, roughly
7 80 percent of that volume gets flagged by the time it
8 gets to destinating for a change of address, but I don't
9 know how much -- I don't know if there's a report -- I'm
10 sure there's data that someone could spend a lot of time
11 digging into to determine what that is, but it wouldn't
12 really serve us a purpose.
13 Q. Okay. So you're saying 80 percent of the
14 letters for which a change of address has been filed or
15 caught during the processing?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Is that a yes?
18 A. Yes. Approximately 80 percent nationwide in
19 this previous quarter, because I did verify that, for an
20 address that had a good change of address on for that
21 person, about 80 percent of that letter volume was
22 redirected and never went to the intended address to
23 begin with.
24 Q. Okay. And then 20 percent did go to the
25 intended address?
55
1 A. No, it just didn't get redirected. So that
2 means the other 20 percent got caught along the way by
3 the carriers forwarding it or it might have been
4 something other than a change of address. So if the
5 address is expired, the system doesn't -- you know, if
6 the change of address has expired, if it's over a year
7 old, the redirect system isn't going to redirect it any
8 longer. It drops out of the system, but the carriers
9 are expected to be knowledgeable to know, you know. We
10 can't just keep redirecting mail forever for someone.
11 Part of the onus is on the person to make sure within a
12 year's time they notify people, hey, I no longer live at
13 that address, so ...
14 Q. So like if -- I think I heard what you said
15 there. Let's say somebody has filled out a change of
16 address and it's expired, would that letter be sent back
17 to the sender or is it possible that wouldn't be sent
18 back to the sender?
19 A. It would be, but it would be sent back to the
20 sender for the reason it no longer is -- and, actually,
21 the reason on the mail piece would say forwarding order
22 expired or undeliverable as addressed, but that would
23 need to be caught by the carrier, which means their
24 change of address had been put in over a year ago.
25 Q. Okay. So in those circumstances the system
56
1 wouldn't catch the letter, it would be the carrier if
2 the carrier had personal knowledge that the individual
3 had moved?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. And if the carrier didn't have personal
6 knowledge that the individual had moved, then it
7 wouldn't be caught?
8 A. Not unless the -- not unless the people
9 receiving that mail piece gave it back to the carrier.
10 Anything that comes back to the carrier, if you don't
11 mind my elaborating, whether it's expired or they just
12 don't know who it is, but they never -- they weren't
13 aware of them living there, then it would go back to the
14 sender. So if we don't know what -- you know, it would
15 go back as undeliverable as addressed, you know. It's
16 got a good address on it, but that person doesn't reside
17 at the address.
18 Q. That would depend upon the person at the
19 address putting the letter back into the mailbox or
20 giving it back to the postal carrier?
21 A. Right. If the carrier wasn't aware that they
22 weren't there.
23 Q. And if the person didn't do that, the person,
24 recipient didn't give the letter back to the carrier,
25 then that would not end up being returned to sender?
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1 A. Right. They might just throw it out. You
2 never know what people do nowadays.
3 Q. Has the Postal Service ever done any studies
4 about how often people do or do not return to the Postal
5 Service letters that they received that they're not --
6 they're addressed to some prior resident?
7 A. None that I could find out about or that I'm
8 aware of. It would be very hard to even determine what
9 that would be.
10 Q. Now, do you track -- does the Postal Service
11 track the number of letters that are addressed to a
12 prior resident which are then returned to the Postal
13 Service by the current resident?
14 A. No.
15 Q. So is it fair to say there's no data
16 indicating how many people -- how many new residents get
17 letters for the prior resident who return the letter?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And there's no data showing how many new
20 residents get letters addressed to the prior resident
21 who do not return it to the Postal Service?
22 A. No. We at times will -- we can determine by
23 data that's exactly what happens. You know, our system
24 is smart enough to where I explained that mail gets into
25 delivery sequence for the carrier to deliver the piece
58
1 of mail. So today if a piece of mail got sorted during
2 the night for delivery today that had been previously
3 sorted say a day or two before, it's going to trigger
4 reports.
5 So a lot of times we can dig into it and find
6 out that, oh, what happened was the customer just went
7 and took that mail and threw it in a collection box
8 'cause we could see it went through our collection
9 system again and then got hits on it. So we can
10 normally decipher if something looks odd that someone
11 has done that. They've thrown -- because it didn't
12 belong to them, maybe that person no longer lives there.
13 So what we'll do is we'll contact the delivery
14 unit and say, hey, you need to go to this tray of mail,
15 to this address and get these pieces of mail that's in
16 that mail and inquire with the carrier why that mail is
17 getting sorted again today when it was sorted yesterday
18 or two days ago for that delivery. And so that's when
19 in our investigation sometimes we'll find out oh, well,
20 those mail pieces that person no longer is at that
21 address, they moved years ago and so the customer must
22 have thrown it in the collection box just to get rid of
23 it.
24 Q. Okay. So let me try to summarize this just to
25 make sure I understand what you're saying. For people
59
1 that fill out a change of address form, 80 percent of
2 those are caught by the automated system and 20 percent
3 are not caught?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. And for the 20 percent that are not caught,
6 then to return to sender you're relying upon the
7 personal knowledge of the postal carrier?
8 A. (Witness nods.)
9 Q. Or the people who received the letter putting
10 it back in the mailbox?
11 A. Yes. I'd say that's an accurate summation.
12 Q. And if the postal carrier doesn't know the
13 person has moved or the new resident doesn't put it back
14 in the postal box, then the letter is not going to be
15 returned to the sender?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And you don't know how many people that would
18 fit into that category?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Does the -- let's go to the letters addressed
21 to a prior resident which are caught by the postal
22 carrier because he knows that person doesn't live at
23 their address anymore, does the Postal Service track how
24 often that takes place?
25 A. We have that type of volume every day. So
60
1 typically that mail would be in his mail he's taking
2 directly to the street. He doesn't touch it until he's
3 gone out to deliver his route. So when he's coming back
4 in the evening, he has a specific deposit location where
5 he puts mail that's undeliverable as addressed or if the
6 resident is deceased. So they pull that mail out of the
7 mail before they deliver it and then they deposit it and
8 then it is dispatched to the plant for processing the
9 next day. So we have different breakdowns on the
10 reasons as to why the mail would be going back to the
11 sender.
12 Q. Okay. So we're talking about the letter
13 carrier is given all the stuff that he's supposed to
14 deliver and when he's making deliveries he finds letters
15 that are addressed to people that he knows don't live at
16 that address anymore, he takes that back to where?
17 A. To his post office station that he works out
18 of. So in the evening they deposit that into designated
19 locations. Typically, there's a tray for each type of
20 mail that they -- and then that mail gets dispatched for
21 processing. It will still be run in the same system
22 that the stuff that's automatically caught is run. It's
23 a postal auto redirect system.
24 Q. For that category we just talked about, has
25 the Postal Service ever tracked how long it takes for
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1 those letters to be returned to sender?
2 A. No. We just -- like I said earlier, we just
3 monitor that they're current in the processing facility
4 on that mail volume, which would be that they clear
5 everything that they have designated to be worked for
6 today gets cleared today.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. So what they do is, you know, it's coming in
9 around the clock, so they have a processing window when
10 they process that. Usually it's in the morning, but
11 once they run everything they had available for today,
12 then everything else gets collected and staged for
13 processing tomorrow.
14 So there's a reporting system that our
15 processing facilities have that they reported on several
16 different classes of mail as well as types of mail,
17 whether it's letters or flats. So they have to report
18 what they have on hand every -- every so many hours and
19 as well as if they have any delayed mail volume. So
20 delayed mail volume would be something that didn't get
21 processed when it was intended to be, which catches a
22 lot of focus and attention from a lot higher at our area
23 office or even higher at headquarters. So there's a lot
24 of checks and balances to make certain that they stay
25 current on that, on that mail volume.
62
1 Q. So, make sure I understand what you're saying,
2 the Postal Service would have data on how many letters
3 are caught by the letter carriers that are addressed to
4 someone that doesn't live at that address anymore?
5 A. They could probably get an idea based upon
6 what gets run. I would imagine it would make up the
7 other roughly 20 percent. The only thing we wouldn't
8 know -- we only know -- when I say 80 percent, we know
9 approximately 80 percent of the hundred percent that
10 gets run on our redirect system is caught before it gets
11 to the carrier.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. There's no way of knowing what's beyond that
14 hundred percent. We're only talking about the mail
15 volume that does get redirected to the sender.
16 Q. So the redirected mail that's going to go back
17 to the sender is the hundred percent that you're talking
18 about?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. And 80 percent of that is caught by the
21 automated system and the other 20 percent is either
22 caught by the letter carriers or the person who lives at
23 the residence where the letter is received?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. And you don't know of that 20 percent
63
1 how much of that is the letter carriers and how much of
2 that is the residents?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. Okay. Do you track how long it takes for
5 those letters to get back to the sender?
6 A. Well, what we do is every day -- not really
7 that gets back to the sender, but that every post office
8 clears that mail every day, so they dispatch that
9 volume. There's a process that they report. So every
10 post office, even ones that don't have delivery out of
11 them, but have just P.O. boxes, some little four-hour
12 office up near the Virginia border or something, they
13 have a recording mechanism that they go online and
14 certify that certain things have been done and one being
15 that all mail is dispatched. So that's part of the
16 process.
17 So we know that they're required to dispatch
18 the mail every day that's supposed to be going to the
19 plant, which that would be. And then the plant, that's
20 isolated mail, so it's coming in from, you know, I'm
21 not -- I can't tell you off the top of my head how
22 many -- how many post offices are serviced out of
23 Raleigh, but it's in the 150, 200 range I would venture
24 to guess, 'cause some of it still comes out of Rocky
25 Mount, but all of that mail comes in from different
64
1 offices, but it's isolated and tagged as PARS mail and
2 so then the plant stages all that for the next morning
3 to start running it.
4 So we have a check and balance in the post
5 offices that they dispatch that mail and then there is a
6 reporting system in our processing facilities that
7 require that they report on, you know, what they have on
8 hand and if they have any delayed mail volume.
9 Q. But, Mr. Roberts, here's what I'm trying to
10 get at, you all are real focused on the time it takes to
11 deliver the letter to the right recipient and you say
12 that takes two days to get that done --
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. -- 96 percent of the time?
15 Do you pay similar attention to how long it
16 takes to get letters back to the recipient that have
17 been received by someone -- to whom -- who is not the
18 correct addressee?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Have you ever come across situations where
21 Postal Service employees have not handled the return
22 letters with the same sort of expeditious attitude that
23 they do with the letters that they're trying to deliver?
24 A. I wouldn't say intentionally because it all
25 falls under the same heading of first-class mail and,
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1 you know, all employees at the Postal Service,
2 whether -- even a custodian goes through the same
3 orientation. That goes over very specific -- the code
4 of ethics as well as the many statutes under different
5 U.S. codes that could end up not only them losing their
6 job, but also end up with fine and possible
7 imprisonment. So yeah, we occasionally have employees
8 that do the wrong thing intentionally, but typically the
9 punishment when caught is swift and severe.
10 Q. Okay. So my question, my question is are you
11 aware of instances where -- or has the Postal Service
12 done any studies on instances where letters were not
13 received by the correct recipient and there was undue
14 delay in returning them to the sender?
15 A. Not that I'm aware of, no.
16 Q. That's not something the Postal Service
17 tracks?
18 A. No. We would deal with an incident, whether
19 it's -- it's still first-class mail. So any incident
20 that -- if there's a delay in a system or anything that
21 would trigger us to dig into it to determine that -- if
22 I can clarify a little bit on what I was talking about
23 earlier. We don't generally dig into data on how long
24 it takes for that mail to get back, but if there was a
25 reason to dig into that data, because we have reason to
66
1 believe that there was a delay in the process, you know,
2 we would look at it. But it's not something we really
3 measure or would expect an issue with the system because
4 there are certain checks and balances in the system to
5 make sure we're current. So if we're current on that
6 mail volume, it should be getting processed and
7 delivered just like any other piece of first-class mail.
8 Q. But you don't know whether it is or isn't
9 because you don't measure that for return letters?
10 A. No. And even if our external testing that we
11 do, we don't -- part of the requirement that IBM makes
12 certain before they sign on like a new receiver of mail
13 is that they have an accurate address and it's a good
14 address and there's no problems with it. So they don't
15 use a receiver of mail that would move. So we wouldn't
16 test that.
17 Q. Okay. All right. When did you start your new
18 position here that you're in right now?
19 A. July 26th of 2014.
20 Q. Are you aware of a problem with the Postal
21 Service at Winston-Salem State not returning the
22 verification letters that you read about in Exhibit 1?
23 A. I'm aware of Winston-Salem State University
24 not handling the mail properly, not the Postal Service.
25 Q. Okay. Let me ask you some questions about
67
1 that.
2 MR. FARR: Are we on Exhibit 3?
3 THE REPORTER: Yes.
4 (Exhibit 3 marked for identification.)
5 Q. Now, Mr. Roberts, I'm going to ask you, this
6 is minutes from the Forsyth County Board of Elections
7 dated September 3rd, 2013. And the only thing I'm going
8 to ask you about is starting on the second page there is
9 a section about list maintenance cards not returned?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. Could you just read that to yourself and let
12 me know when you're done?
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. And you're welcome to read the rest of the
15 document if you want to, but I'm not going to ask you
16 anything else about anything else on the document.
17 A. (Witness reviews document.)
18 MR. FARR: Let's go ahead and mark this as
19 Exhibit 4.
20 (Exhibit 4 marked for identification.)
21 Q. Are you done?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Okay. Let me have you read one other Exhibit.
24 Exhibit 4 is minutes from the Forsyth County Board of
25 Elections for October 15th, 2013 and the only thing that
68
1 I need for you to read on there is on page 2 where it
2 talks about list maintenance cards. And once you finish
3 reading that I'll ask you questions about Winston-Salem
4 State.
5 A. Okay. (Witness reviews document.)
6 Q. Okay. So these minutes relate to stuff that
7 happened at Winston-Salem State before you were in your
8 position you're in right now?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. Where were you working in September of 2013?
11 A. I was acting postmaster of Charlotte, North
12 Carolina.
13 Q. Okay. Now, clarify this for me, how was the
14 mail delivered to students at Winston-Salem State?
15 A. They have a unique zip code. It's 27110. So
16 all mail for Winston-Salem State University that gets
17 that zip code goes on direct transportation from the
18 processing facility in Greensboro directly to
19 Winston-Salem State University. None of -- none of that
20 mail goes through the Winston-Salem post office.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. The only thing that would go through the
23 Winston-Salem post office occasionally are pieces of
24 express mail that come in late, that type of stuff that
25 then they would send a carrier over to Winston-Salem
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1 State University to deliver a piece of express mail that
2 arrived late or something, but otherwise there's direct
3 transportation to and from the university, between that
4 and the processing facility.
5 Q. Okay. So, in reading Exhibit 3 and Exhibit 4,
6 somewhere in there I got the impression that the post
7 office has a contract with Winston-Salem State. Is that
8 true or false?
9 A. That's not necessarily a contract with them.
10 That's part of their requirements when they're receiving
11 mail as a university. There's a contract post office --
12 well, they call it a contract post office. It's not
13 even a contractor with us either. There's a facility on
14 Winston-Salem State that sells our goods and products,
15 but that's not even a contract facility of ours.
16 We don't have a contract per se with them, but
17 just like any other -- I can't think of any colleges
18 that I've come across in the state of North Carolina
19 that didn't have -- that they either picked up directly
20 from the processing facility or they get the mail
21 directly to them and they have a unique zip code
22 assigned to them and they handle the mail.
23 Q. And are there any sort of documents that
24 govern the relationship between the Postal Service and
25 these universities that handle their mail on their own?
70
1 A. They're supposed to follow the guidelines
2 where it's covered for the most part in the Domestic
3 Mail Manual in regards to how they should handle not
4 just mail that is deliverable but mail that's
5 undeliverable. Because if you go to school at
6 Winston-Salem State University, you can't put in a
7 change of address with the Postal Service. You notify
8 Winston-Salem State University, hey, here's my new
9 address and they're required to put the new address on
10 the mail piece and then the postage is still -- for
11 forwarding is covered under the price of first-class
12 postage. So they would still stick it in -- they
13 would -- they should return it back to us with a new
14 address and it would go on to the new address. If
15 it's -- if it's endorsed they should handle it just like
16 we would. So if it's endorsed for return service
17 requested, then that should be isolated and be going
18 back to the sender.
19 Q. Okay. So you just raised a lot of issues I
20 need to ask you questions about. It was very helpful --
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. -- but I have a few questions. So are there
23 standards that the universities are supposed to follow
24 in the delivery of the mail to the students, I mean,
25 Postal Service standards?
71
1 A. It's covered -- and I wish -- you know, with
2 so many rules and regulations --
3 Q. Mr. Roberts, just do the best you can. We
4 don't expect you to know everything --
5 A. I know there is a section in the Domestic Mail
6 Manual of how they should handle that mail volume.
7 Q. Okay. So Exhibit 4 refers to the Domestic
8 Mail Manual I think if you'll look at that under list
9 maintenance.
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. These are minutes of the Board of Elections
12 meeting. They're quoting one of the members who said
13 that he quoted the USPS Domestic Mail Manual. Is that
14 what you think you're referring to?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. So the Domestic Mail Manual establishes
17 standards that universities are supposed to follow if
18 they're going to have their own internal postal service
19 for students?
20 A. It covers many, many aspects of anything
21 domestically whether receiving mail even if you're
22 living at an address. It basically covers all gamuts of
23 accepting and receiving mail to include how mail should
24 be prepared if you use a meter or, you know, it covers
25 all aspects of sending and receiving mail within the
72
1 United States.
2 Q. Okay. And that would -- those standards would
3 apply to any university that distributes mail to its
4 students or faculty the way Winston-Salem State does; is
5 that right?
6 A. Yes. There is a section in it also that
7 covers military units. It covers hotel agreements,
8 'cause typically a person can receive mail that's
9 staying at a hotel, but it kind of falls under the same
10 guidelines. It's addressed to the hotel. So the hotel
11 is required to handle that mail the same way.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. So there's section in the Domestic Mail Manual
14 that discuss those type of agreements.
15 Q. So there would be standards in the domestic
16 manual that would apply, for example, to the postal
17 operations done by the military at Fort Bragg?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Does the Postal Service ever audit entities
20 that are handling mail such as the way mail is handled
21 at Winston-Salem State University?
22 A. From the customer service side, where I can
23 only speak from, not that I'm aware of. I believe, you
24 know, at times they are subject to auditing or
25 investigation I believe by both the inspections, U.S.
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1 Postal Inspection Service as well as the OIG, but I'm
2 not aware of any -- anything that requires that we do an
3 audit on them. We do on our contracted post offices,
4 someone that we have a contract, we do quarterly audits
5 on them, but not on a university or any type of military
6 base.
7 Q. Are there any ramifications to Winston-Salem
8 State if they're not following the policies and
9 standards that are set by the Domestic Manual as far as
10 you know?
11 A. I'm not sure what they would be. I'm sure
12 they're covered somehow under law and that someone could
13 definitely find themselves facing serious charges by
14 doing something they shouldn't, but I'm not sure that --
15 that would generally I believe be handled by the Postal
16 Inspection Service or the OIG, depending on the
17 circumstances, that I'm aware of.
18 Q. Okay. All right. So at Winston-Salem State
19 the processing plant delivers the mail to the -- can I
20 call it the university's postal shop?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And those employees are employed by?
23 A. The university.
24 Q. They're not employees of the Postal Service?
25 A. No, sir.
74
1 Q. And the standards that they would need to
2 follow to deliver mail to students or faculty would be
3 the same standards that apply to postal workers?
4 A. Yeah, I would say so on that. They could face
5 the same -- you know what, I can't tell you for certain.
6 I don't -- I don't want to say for certain that --
7 because we -- the Postal Service considers the mail
8 delivered when it gets in the hands of the university.
9 So I'm not sure, you know, if the federal government
10 would take up a charge or if that would be left -- like
11 say, for instance, a university employee is stealing
12 from that mail, or if it would be handled by, you know,
13 local authorities and then a district attorney.
14 If we have an employee that's stealing mail,
15 if we're going to take charges, it's usually a federal
16 attorney that's handling the charges. It's not like --
17 we don't go to the local district attorney to press
18 charges on a postal employee, but I can't tell you a
19 hundred percent how that would be handled.
20 Q. So do you -- does your district encompass
21 Durham?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. So -- and your district encompasses Guilford
24 County?
25 A. Yeah. Yes.
75
1 Q. Okay. And does your district encompass
2 Watauga County?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So there's major universities in all those
5 counties?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Do they handle their mail the same way
8 Winston-Salem State does?
9 A. It's all under the same -- either they pick
10 up -- Duke University, for instance, has a lot of mail
11 that goes directly to them. They also pick up a lot
12 from one of the stations that's close to Duke where some
13 of the mail goes through that location, but it all --
14 they all have unique zip codes and they're all
15 responsible for the finalization of the mail. We don't
16 take any -- we don't forward any mail for any student
17 from any university that's using the address of the
18 university or the zip code of the university. The only
19 way we would is if they're renting a P.O. box from us
20 and then we would forward their mail from the P.O. Box.
21 Q. So when the -- let's go back to Winston-Salem
22 State as an example. When the mail is received by the
23 university's postal shop, who is then responsible for
24 getting the letters to students or faculty who have used
25 that zip code for their mail?
76
1 A. The employees there.
2 Q. Do you know how they do that at Winston-Salem
3 State?
4 A. No, I don't. I'm not sure if they have their
5 own. You know, with some of the universities I've been
6 in they have their own type of P.O. box system that they
7 deliver to. You know, at some of the smaller schools
8 sometimes they just go to a mailroom and pick up, but
9 off the top of my head I don't know exactly how it's
10 finalized at Winston-Salem State.
11 Q. Okay. Now, you said that if a student had
12 campus -- a campus residence and was using the zip code
13 for the university and they decided to move, you said
14 they'd have to fill out a change of address form and
15 give it to the university's postal shop?
16 A. Whatever their system they have in place to do
17 their change of address with the university, that's what
18 they do and then, you know, I can speak for -- I have a
19 little bit more experience with the University of North
20 Carolina in Charlotte.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. So where they have a pretty good system to
23 where they could easily just print out the new label.
24 They have printers with -- so they print out the correct
25 mailing address on a label for a student that had moved.
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1 At least that's how they used to do it a couple years
2 ago when I was there. So they might have a database
3 where they print out something and apply it.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. Instead of having to hand write all those
6 addresses.
7 MR. FARR: Okay. Let me pull out an exhibit
8 right now that might be helpful. Can we go off the
9 record for a second.
10 (Discussion off the record.)
11 BY MR. FARR:
12 Q. Let's go back on the record and tell me why
13 you did that.
14 A. Because this mail piece has been processed
15 prior to this getting on it. (Indicating.)
16 Q. Let's just talk about it on the record.
17 MR. BECK: Has it been marked as an exhibit?
18 MR. FARR: I'm going to. I just wanted you to
19 look at it. Let's leave the original out. We're
20 up to Exhibit 5?
21 THE REPORTER: Yes.
22 (Exhibit 5 marked for identification.)
23 BY MR. FARR:
24 Q. So, Mr. Roberts, I've handed you Exhibit 5.
25 Let me tell you what that is. We're going to get to
78
1 this later, but I thought it might be helpful now in
2 connection with Winston-Salem State. As part of this
3 litigation the defendants conducted a mailing of a
4 category of voters on the state voter registration rolls
5 called removed voters because we wanted to see how many
6 cards would be returned. And that's one of the cards
7 that was returned pursuant to that mailing. So we'll
8 get into this in more detail subsequently, but I wanted
9 you to know what that was before I talked to you about
10 Winston-Salem State. The reason I pulled it out now is
11 because you said at Winston-Salem State that if the
12 student -- the student would fill out a change of
13 address form with the university?
14 A. They'd notify the university of their new
15 address.
16 Q. Okay. They're supposed to do that?
17 A. Yeah. I mean, otherwise the university
18 wouldn't have a place to forward their mail to. If they
19 fill out a change of address and give it to us, we
20 wouldn't recognize it.
21 Q. Okay, good. That's what I wanted -- you said
22 that earlier. But also if the student was graduating,
23 he wouldn't necessarily fill out a change of address
24 form with the university under those circumstances,
25 would he?
79
1 A. I don't know why they wouldn't. They tend to
2 get a good amount of mail.
3 Q. Well, do you know whether everybody does that
4 or?
5 A. No, I mean, I can't tell you, but just ...
6 Q. That would make sense --
7 A. It would make sense.
8 Q. -- to me as a 60-year-old adult, but I'm not
9 sure --
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. -- about 20-year-olds.
12 A. You're absolutely right with the way they
13 communicate through their phones.
14 Q. So you were saying that if the student had
15 done a change of address form with the college or
16 university, you said they put a label on something that
17 had been mailed to them?
18 A. That's what I found a lot of the universities
19 to do to make it an easier process for them because they
20 put -- if it's being forwarded they put -- they're
21 required to put the new address on.
22 Q. Is that -- would it be similar to what I've
23 just shown you with Exhibit 5?
24 A. No. That's been applied by us. That's one of
25 our labels from our postal automated redirection system.
80
1 Q. Right. But how would the label that the
2 university would put on be different?
3 A. It's something that they've generated. This
4 is from our equipment that generates it, but it might
5 just be that they do a lookup and print out a label that
6 has their -- and a lot of times I found they'll just put
7 it right over the previous address. So the address, you
8 know, they might -- they might cover up the address, but
9 leave the name. Some of them have the name and address
10 and they know they're putting the right sticker on it.
11 You know, it's up to them really how they do it.
12 Otherwise, they hand write -- they would hand write what
13 the new address is.
14 Q. Okay. Now, with the -- would Winston-Salem
15 State forward the mailing to --
16 A. Well --
17 Q. Wait, I have to finish my question.
18 A. I'm sorry.
19 Q. Again, this is because of her. We want to be
20 nice to the court reporter because it's all over if she
21 gets mad and leaves.
22 When the student has filled out a change of
23 address form or whatever Winston-Salem State would
24 require and they put a label on the piece of mail with
25 the new address, would that be forwarded to the student
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1 or would it be sent back to the sender?
2 A. If they're putting a new address on it, then
3 it should be -- it shouldn't be endorsed return service
4 requested. Otherwise, they should be sending it back to
5 the sender unable to forward.
6 Q. So, in other words, if the person that mails
7 it requests return service, that means it's going to get
8 sent back to the sender?
9 A. It should, yes.
10 Q. And would the new address be placed on the
11 card for the sender to be able to observe when the card
12 was returned to them or would they not put the address
13 on it?
14 A. My guess is probably most of the universities
15 you'd find they'd just return to sender. They wouldn't
16 put the new address on is what I would give the best
17 educated guess I could.
18 Q. Okay. All right. Now, you've read I think
19 Exhibits 3 and 4 and you can refer to them if you want,
20 but can you see that the Forsyth County Board of
21 Elections reported a problem with Winston-Salem State
22 not returning these verification cards that they had
23 sent to students at Winston-Salem State?
24 A. Right. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Now, have you ever seen that happen
82
1 before at any other colleges where the college has not
2 returned the cards to the sender?
3 A. No, not in my experience, not with -- you
4 know, I usually in a lot of my positions where I had a
5 university had dealings with the mailrooms and at times
6 we have dealings with -- especially around election time
7 with the Board of Elections. We might even -- I know
8 this past year prior to the election we had a conference
9 call with the leadership of our district, our marketing
10 department and made it open to all the -- I believe all
11 the Board of Elections that we covered in our district
12 just to see if there were issues arising, but I'm not
13 aware of anything else like that that I've ever heard
14 of.
15 Q. All right. Since you've raised that, I'm sure
16 others in the room will want to know when did that call
17 take place, before the election?
18 A. It was before the election, yeah. It was
19 before the last election.
20 Q. General election in 2014?
21 A. Yes. It was probably like somewhere
22 mid-October.
23 Q. Okay. Who initiated the phone call?
24 A. That would be Randall Anderson.
25 Q. And who is Randall Anderson?
83
1 A. Marketing manager for the Greensboro district.
2 Q. So it was Randall's idea to have a phone call
3 with the Board of Elections?
4 A. I don't know if it was his because it's a
5 practice that they've done in the Greensboro district
6 before I came to this district, but I don't know whose
7 idea it was, but he oversees not just marketing, but
8 like consumer affairs, so any complaints that come in.
9 And, generally, whether it's a Board of Elections or
10 whether it's a congressman's office or a senator's
11 office, whether it's a state representative, if they
12 have issues concerning mail delivery any way whatsoever
13 it would come through his department.
14 So in order to be proactive to see if there
15 was any issues that were coming up or being reported
16 that they had a conference call to make certain that
17 they knew who to contact in the event there's an issue
18 and, you know, if they had any questions regarding
19 anything that they might have.
20 Q. Are you aware of any complaints that had been
21 made by the State Board of Elections about the Postal
22 Service?
23 A. Not -- not off the top of my head, no.
24 Q. Okay. Do you remember who attended or who was
25 present -- this was a conference call?
84
1 A. Yes, it was a conference call. So I'm not
2 sure who -- what all counties participated, but I
3 believe, if recollection serves me, it was at least put
4 out to the counties that our district serves.
5 Q. Okay. County Boards of Election or county
6 post offices?
7 A. No, it wasn't county post offices. It was --
8 I'm real certain that County Board of Elections. And
9 I'm not sure how he triggered that, if he went through
10 the State Board of Elections. You know, we try to have
11 good open communications with not just election boards,
12 but also we try to quarterly meet with a representative
13 from each congressman's office, state senator's office,
14 we'll have a meeting. Some show up for our
15 congressional meetings, some don't, but ...
16 Q. Well, do you remember anyone from the State
17 Board of Elections being in on this conference call?
18 A. To tell you the truth, I can't tell you
19 whether there was or not.
20 Q. Okay. Did anybody keep minutes?
21 A. I'm sure there probably is a record of who
22 attended and when it was exactly.
23 Q. Okay. And do you recall any issues coming up
24 in the conference call?
25 A. Not that I can recall, nothing that I had to
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1 answer to or have to take action on.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. We were trying to be very proactive with
4 making sure if there were any complaints, especially
5 with absentee ballots that we were getting them, you
6 know, properly round dated.
7 Q. Have there been any issues -- someone is going
8 to be interested in this -- have there been issues in
9 the past about the Postal Service not postmarking
10 absentee ballots?
11 A. I believe that has been an issue in the past
12 where there were some complaints filed.
13 Q. Has the Postal Service done anything to try to
14 make sure that doesn't happen in the future?
15 A. Yes. Basically, by making certain that if it
16 gets into our hands to where we can round date, you
17 know, ideally everything that's going through our system
18 will get a cancellation. It doesn't always, but what we
19 do is try to communicate and we'll be very proactive in
20 making certain that all the locations -- especially if
21 it's a location where the mail is going back to where we
22 serve a Board of Elections in that -- out of that
23 office, that if there's stuff that's coming in that we
24 try to verify that mail that has a round dater, we round
25 date it.
86
1 Q. Okay. So why don't you make sure I understand
2 the terms, a round date?
3 A. We call it a round date. That's a postmark,
4 I'm sorry. That's a terminology we use.
5 Q. When is the postmark put on the piece of mail?
6 A. If you go up to a window and request that it
7 is postmarked then, it's going to get -- the sales and
8 service associate would postmark it. We have --
9 Q. What about somebody just puts -- someone that
10 has -- you understand that absentee ballots are returned
11 by mail?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And they're in a container envelope, right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Someone puts that in a post office box
16 somewhere, when is that going to get a postmark?
17 A. Hopefully it gets a postmark at the -- going
18 through the processing.
19 Q. Okay. Which happens on the same day that the
20 person puts it in the post office box?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. Unless they put them in the post office box
23 after pick up?
24 A. Right, then it would be the following day.
25 Q. Okay. All right. So you don't remember any
87
1 particular issues that came up in this conference with
2 the State Board of Elections or the Boards of Elections
3 in October of 2014?
4 A. No, not that I can recall.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. I'm not saying that there wasn't anything, but
7 nothing sticks out. It was more just for -- it ended up
8 being more for communication and opening up that line of
9 communication.
10 Q. Okay. All right. Now, let's go back to
11 Winston-Salem State, did you see the allegations or the
12 allegations by the board chairman that there were a
13 number of cards that weren't returned?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Okay. If they were following the standards
16 that apply to the postal workers, when should those
17 cards have been returned?
18 A. The same -- they should have gone out that day
19 or the very next day on their outgoing transportation in
20 the evening.
21 Q. Okay. And how should they -- how should they
22 have been returned?
23 A. They would have processed that return to
24 sender.
25 Q. Winston-Salem State, how should they have
88
1 returned the cards?
2 A. So it would have been in with other
3 return-to-sender mail. They're not -- we wouldn't make
4 them isolated to the sender's address, but they should
5 generally prepare return-to-sender mail and other mail
6 depending on what it is.
7 Q. Okay. Now, would it be proper for Postal
8 Service workers to just jump in the car and drive those
9 return cards over to the center themselves?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And why wouldn't that be proper?
12 A. We generally wouldn't do that. The only --
13 the only reason why I could think we would ever do
14 something like that is because it was something that was
15 found or reported or brought to our attention and we
16 wanted to expedite it, but otherwise it would go with
17 the normal channels of however the mail would go.
18 Q. Do you ever recall a circumstance where the
19 Postal Service did not process the return mail the way
20 you've described to me?
21 A. No.
22 Q. If you didn't process it the way you described
23 to me the Postal Service wouldn't be able to keep track
24 of the letters that were being returned?
25 A. Right. We will at times go to great
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1 lengths -- I've got in the car and driven a man's check
2 50 miles that got redirected and he was desperate. And
3 so, I mean, we'll go above and beyond what our normal
4 means are to do the right thing for the customer. The
5 customer sometimes isn't always the sender. It might be
6 the receiver, but I'm not aware of anything regarding
7 the Board of Elections.
8 Q. Okay. So the university postal shops should
9 have returned those cards essentially the day they were
10 received?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. And they should have returned them to the
13 Postal Service?
14 A. Right. They would send that out with their
15 outgoing mail.
16 Q. Okay. All right. Let's go back, we'll leave
17 this out for a second in case you want to look at that.
18 Exhibit 1, you recalled reading the testimony in there
19 about how the State Board of Elections attempts to
20 verify voters through the mail verification process?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Okay. Do you know or understand what removed
23 voter means? Is that explained in that testimony?
24 A. I might have seen it. And they're not on the
25 rolls?
90
1 Q. Right. Does that mean they've been taken off
2 the voter rolls, removed from the voter rolls?
3 A. I believe that's the case.
4 (Exhibit 6 marked for identification.)
5 Q. Let me hand you another exhibit, Exhibit 6.
6 Mr. Roberts, these are some excerpts from a deposition
7 of an individual named Gary Bartlett that used to be the
8 executive director of the State Board of Elections. And
9 I'd like for you to read starting on its page 144, line
10 18 through page 146, line 12. If you could just read
11 that to yourself and let me know when you're done.
12 A. (Witness reviews document.)
13 Q. Are you ready?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Do you see on page 146 where
16 Mr. Bartlett says that common sense will tell you that
17 letters mailed to removed voters should all be returned?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. Now I'm going to hand you something
20 else to look at, which we're going to mark as exhibit
21 what?
22 THE REPORTER: Seven.
23 MR. FARR: Seven. We may want to take a
24 break, go off the record so he can read this.
25 Let's just go off the record.
91
1 (Discussion off the record.)
2 (Exhibit 7 marked for identification.)
3 (Brief recess.)
4 (Ms. Riggs not present in room.)
5 BY MR. FARR:
6 Q. Mr. Roberts, I've handed you -- I think we've
7 marked this Exhibit 7. Have you seen this before?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. Okay. Have you had time to read it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. So this is a Declaration by Mr. Charles
12 Underwood which he signed on June 2nd, 2014. It's on
13 page 3 I think, if you can just confirm that.
14 A. Correct. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And you see he says he's the president
16 on page 1 of the affidavit, not the cover page, but the
17 first page, he's the president of something called Metro
18 Productions?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Which he says is a marketing communications
21 company with a focus on direct mail, do you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. And do you see that he says that he
24 received a copy of the type of card that the State Board
25 of Elections sends out to voters to verify their
92
1 residence as Exhibit 1, do you see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. And do you see that he said that they
4 were asked to create a card to be used for a card
5 mailing?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That's in paragraph 4.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And the card that he designed for this card
10 mailing was attached as Exhibit 2?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. And that's the -- that's basically the
13 same card that we looked at before --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- which is Exhibit 5?
16 A. (Witness nods.)
17 Q. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. And then he says that they mailed 2,400
20 removed voters from the SPE list, do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And they requested return service for all
23 those cards?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. And that's consistent with what we've looked
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93
1 at with Exhibit 5 previously?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Let's make sure I've got the right number. Do
4 you have the exhibit copy of that?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. It's right there. Let's make sure we have the
7 right number, Exhibit 5?
8 A. Yeah, it's Exhibit 5.
9 Q. Okay. Turn to the second page of his
10 affidavit. He talks about how many of those cards were
11 returned. Do you see that?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. So he says as of April 29th, 600 cards were
14 returned out of the 2,400 that were mailed. Do you see
15 that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that -- and that was about -- that was
18 more than a month after the original mailing on
19 April 11th? Or excuse me --
20 A. No, that was a week -- well, about --
21 Q. Was it 18 days?
22 A. -- twelve days.
23 Q. Eighteen days; is that right?
24 A. The 17th?
25 Q. Oh, okay. I'm sorry.
94
1 A. April 17th. That's okay.
2 Q. Yes, sir. Thank you for correcting that. And
3 then that went up to 1,075 cards returned as of
4 May 12th?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. That would have been a month after the
7 mailing?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. Right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So that was about 475 cards more than were
12 returned two weeks after the mailing, do you see that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Do you have any explanation for why 600
15 cards got returned within two weeks and another 475 got
16 returned within the next two weeks?
17 MR. BECK: Objection to the form of the
18 question, but you can answer it if you can.
19 THE WITNESS: No, I can't tell you why that
20 may have occurred.
21 BY MR. FARR:
22 Q. Okay. Now, Exhibit 5 is one of the cards that
23 were returned and you've already testified that that was
24 something that was processed by the Postal Service?
25 A. Yes.
95
1 Q. And how could you tell that?
2 A. Well, the type of label, it's just got our
3 information on it and it was treated as nixie mail.
4 This is a date that it was processed on May 7th was
5 that. And it looked like this piece had been previously
6 processed. It was unable to forward, had a previous bar
7 code applied.
8 Q. How about doing me a favor, tell me everything
9 that you can tell about that card from your examination
10 of that original version of Exhibit 5.
11 A. Just that it got this label applied on the 7th
12 of May.
13 Q. The yellow label?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. And it was processed in Greensboro 'cause of
17 the 274. There's some other information on this that I
18 would need to refer to a system we have that would be
19 able to give more information. I forget, depending on
20 what asterisk is in front of that number, like it's an
21 asterisk in front of this, depending on what --
22 sometimes what the symbol is, that can tell you more
23 information as far as how it was processed.
24 Q. Okay. But let me ask you, you have Exhibit
25 5, the original, in your hands. That says on there
96
1 "return service requested." Do you see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So if those cards were mailed to people who no
4 longer reside at the address listed on that card then
5 all those cards should have been returned to the Board
6 of Elections -- or, excuse me, to Metro Productions?
7 A. If we know they no longer reside there.
8 Q. Right. Okay. And if the -- the yellow label,
9 does it say "return to sender, not deliverable as
10 addressed, unable to forward," what does that mean?
11 A. That means we can't deliver it as it is
12 addressed because Emmanuel Salak is not there and unable
13 to forward because return service requested.
14 Q. Okay. If he had given a change of address to
15 the Postal Service would that have been listed on the
16 label?
17 A. Yeah, it normally would be.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. And it would still be unable to forward, but
20 it would give the sender.
21 Q. You wouldn't have forwarded it because Metro
22 Productions asked that it be sent back to them?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. But if he had given a change of address that
25 would have been listed on the label?
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97
1 A. Yeah, generally.
2 Q. Okay. All right. And then going back to
3 paragraph 7, I think we stopped off we had 1,075 cards
4 were delivered as of May 12th, which was 600 more -- or
5 excuse me, 475 more than were delivered as of
6 April 29th. Do you see that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then he reports another 106 were returned
9 as of May 14th, 2014; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You got to check my math because that's why I
12 went to law school. And then there were another 36
13 cards returned as of May 29th -- May 19th?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And then they got an additional --
16 A. Fifteen.
17 Q. -- fifteen cards returned as of June 2nd --
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. -- 2014?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And, again, do you have any idea why there
22 would be such a disparity between the dates that the
23 cards were returned?
24 A. My best educated guess would be because at the
25 time of delivery the carrier didn't know they weren't
98
1 there, so they would have been delivered and then as
2 they came back into our hands we returned them.
3 Q. Okay. So these cards could have been returned
4 because the carrier knew that they didn't live there
5 anymore?
6 A. Right, or that they got back into the hands of
7 the carrier, you know, saying this person is not at this
8 address. You know, sometimes people sit on mail for a
9 couple of days, a week or longer.
10 Q. Right. So these cards would have been
11 returned to sender because the person might have given
12 the Postal Service a change of address form?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And they could be returned because the carrier
15 knew the person didn't live there anymore?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Is that a yes?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And they could have been returned because the
20 recipient put the letter back into the post office box
21 or gave it back to the Postal Service somehow?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. Or it could have been returned because the
25 forwarding order was expired.
99
1 Q. Okay. All right.
2 A. Or they never received mail there before.
3 Q. Okay. Well, these were like people that were
4 registered with the State Board of Elections at one
5 point in time.
6 A. I'm saying based on the knowledge of the
7 carrier.
8 Q. Okay. And so they mailed 2,400 cards as
9 indicated in paragraph 6 and as of June 2nd only 1,132
10 had been returned?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So the majority of the cards weren't returned?
13 A. Not according to what they -- their test
14 mailing.
15 Q. And one of the reasons why the cards wouldn't
16 be returned is because the recipient would not have
17 given it back to the Postal Service?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And --
20 A. Or to -- I mean, I guess the only thing I'm
21 not sure of is who's the authority saying that that
22 person doesn't get mail at that address of this test
23 mailing?
24 Q. Well, the cards were returned.
25 A. No. I'm saying for the ones that weren't
100
1 returned, is it the State saying that person absolutely
2 doesn't receive mail at that address? I'm a little
3 confused.
4 Q. No. What the state -- you read the testimony
5 from the executive director of the Board of Elections,
6 Gary Bartlett --
7 A. They came off the roll.
8 Q. -- right?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. And he said removed voters if you sent them a
11 letter it ought to be returned. Do you remember that
12 testimony?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And I'm just asking you if one of the reasons
15 why they might not have been returned is because the
16 recipient didn't give the card back to the Postal
17 Service, is that one of the reasons why they might not
18 be returned?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Is it possible they weren't returned
21 because somewhere somebody in the Postal Service didn't
22 return the cards, didn't process the cards for being
23 returned, is that a possibility?
24 A. Not likely, no.
25 Q. Okay. What are the other possibilities for
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101
1 why the cards wouldn't be returned?
2 A. That we possibly deliver mail to that address
3 to that name and they do receive mail there. That's
4 what I'm not sure -- they might have been removed from
5 the rolls, but I'm not certain where there's any
6 definitive proof that those people don't get mail at the
7 address that it was addressed to.
8 Q. Do you know?
9 A. I'm not trying to be hard-headed.
10 Q. I understand.
11 A. I'm just trying to comprehend exactly what the
12 test represents.
13 Q. Do you know anything about the mail
14 verification process that the State Board of Elections
15 follows to remove voters?
16 A. Not completely, no.
17 Q. Okay. So you don't know how many prior
18 mailings these people might have received before they
19 were removed?
20 A. Well, are those the ones that would have
21 gotten two saying that they -- coming back to them?
22 Q. Could have been.
23 A. Otherwise, for such a difference in numbers
24 it's odd to me.
25 Q. Okay.
102
1 A. It just seems odd.
2 Q. All right. Some of those people could have
3 moved and not filled out a change of address form?
4 A. But they should still come back to you if
5 we're aware that they moved. It should still go back to
6 Metro Productions.
7 Q. Right. If the Postal Service people -- if the
8 carrier knows they don't live there anymore?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. But if the carrier doesn't know that the
11 carrier would have no idea that they should be returned?
12 A. Correct.
13 MR. FARR: Okay. Those are all my questions.
14 MR. RUSS: Could we take a break?
15 MR. FARR: Sure.
16 (Brief recess.)
17 EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. BECK:
19 Q. Let me direct your attention to Exhibit Number
20 7, the Declaration of Charles Underwood. Do you know
21 the underlying -- underlying methodology that Metro
22 Productions used in making this mailing that's referred
23 to in the Declaration? Do you know what Metro
24 Productions' methodology was with regard to this
25 mailing?
103
1 A. No.
2 Q. With regard to the definition of removed
3 voters, do you know what the definition of removed
4 voters includes?
5 A. Just I think what I had read, but that they
6 could either not be there, they've moved out of state or
7 they could also be a felon I believe.
8 Q. Do you know whether -- do you know whether the
9 list that is attached to Exhibit 7 has been
10 cross-referenced to eliminate any felons that are on
11 that particular list?
12 A. No, I don't.
13 Q. With regard to the difference between 2,400
14 cards being mailed on April 17th, 2014 and June 2nd,
15 2014, 1,132 being returned, have you seen anything in
16 your postal experience that is consistent with that kind
17 of nondelivery rate?
18 A. No.
19 Q. What are some possible explanations of why
20 there would not -- those cards would not have been
21 returned?
22 A. It could have to do with the mailing list. It
23 seems like -- can I see the card again? I'm not a mail
24 piece design expert, so I can't tell you if it ideally
25 fits our ideal dimensions on postcard mailing. If --
104
1 that could have caused issues to where, you know -- but
2 then even I would think a damage rate would still be
3 fairly low. But aside from the mailing list being used,
4 I'm not sure what else may have caused -- you know, it's
5 nowhere near the rate of information we get from mailers
6 regularly.
7 Q. I'd like for you to compare Exhibit 5 with --
8 what is Exhibit 5?
9 A. That's the mail piece that had gone to
10 Mocksville.
11 Q. And I'd like for you to compare it to Exhibit
12 1 to the Declaration of Charles Underwood, which we've
13 marked in this deposition as Exhibit 7. So when you
14 compare Exhibit 5 to Exhibit 1 of Mr. Underwood's
15 Declaration which we've marked Exhibit 7, what are the
16 differences between the two mailings?
17 A. Well, for one, I can't tell you the exact
18 dimensions of this mailing 'cause it's a photocopy. It
19 looks like it was potentially larger. Aside from that,
20 you know, without having the mail piece, the only thing
21 I could say it could potentially be of a different size.
22 Q. With regard to Exhibit 1, does Exhibit 1 have
23 any markings or other information that Exhibit 5 does
24 not have?
25 A. Just that it's officially election mail and
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1 this exhibit doesn't have the postage applied, this one
2 does. (Indicating.)
3 Q. With regard to those mailings that
4 Mr. Underwood refers to and those that were not
5 returned, is it possible that the addressee was actually
6 living at that address?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Let me give you some examples. For example,
9 if you had a college student who put in a change of
10 address when they left their parents' home and then they
11 came back to that residence, would the mail be returned
12 to the Postal Service if that college student is now
13 actually living in their parents' home where the
14 mail was addressed?
15 A. No. We would deliver that.
16 Q. From your experience with the Postal Service,
17 are there other instances in which people put in a
18 change of address and then they move back to their
19 previous residence?
20 A. Yes. That occurs as well as sometimes a
21 change of address will be put in by a person and they
22 list family when it should have only been that
23 individual, which is going to trigger a family move.
24 Sometimes -- a lot of times when we run into
25 change of address problems, one unique issue we have a
106
1 lot of times is if it's two people of the same name,
2 like a father and son, but one's a senior, one's a
3 junior, the system doesn't know the difference unless
4 the mail is marked, if the change of address has the
5 senior or junior and the mail has the senior or junior,
6 that creates issues.
7 Q. You testified earlier with regard to the
8 automated system that checks outgoing mail and made
9 reference to a change of address inputs that are cross
10 checked against that outgoing system?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The change of address inputs, what could be
13 the sources of the data in that change of address
14 database that is bounced against the outgoing
15 processing, automation processing?
16 A. From either a change of address card generated
17 by the customer or a change of address card generated by
18 the carrier, which is basically stating that they didn't
19 not leave a change of address or an online change of
20 address that someone had done.
21 Q. Earlier in your deposition you indicated
22 that -- I believe I heard this, and I just want to make
23 sure we have a chance to correct it -- that North
24 Carolina has 105 counties; is that accurate?
25 A. I believe so.
107
1 MR. FARR: Did he say that?
2 MR. BECK: Maybe I misheard --
3 THE WITNESS: I think there's 105 counties in
4 the state.
5 MR. FARR: We'll all stipulate there's only a
6 hundred.
7 MR. BECK: That's why.
8 THE WITNESS: I might have been off by five.
9 I don't know why 105 was sticking.
10 MR. BECK: One hundred counties.
11 MR. FARR: I thought he said 105 post offices.
12 THE WITNESS: No, I said 105 counties. I was
13 thinking for some reason it was 105.
14 MR. FARR: We'll forgive you.
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
16 BY MR. BECK:
17 Q. With regard to the mailing that is referred to
18 in Mr. Charles Underwood's Declaration, if a felon was
19 living at that particular address that the card was
20 mailed to, would the card be returned to the Postal
21 Service?
22 A. I don't know why it necessarily would be.
23 Only if someone gave it back to us. We would still
24 deliver it. We deliver mail to felons and non-felons.
25 MR. BECK: Okay. No further questions.
108
1 MR. FARR: Okay. I've got a few questions.
2 FURTHER EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. FARR:
4 Q. Mr. Beck is a U.S. attorney and someone for
5 whom I have very high regard. When he asks you a
6 question about what methodology was used by
7 Mr. Underwood what did that mean to you?
8 A. I guess in exactly verifying the accuracy of
9 the mailing list.
10 Q. Okay. Does he indicate in his affidavit that
11 he got the mailing -- the people who were mailed, he got
12 that from the State Board of Elections?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the State Board of Elections selected the
15 removed voters who he would mail?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Did methodology mean anything else to
18 you besides that?
19 A. Not really. Just that I believe he would have
20 access to a database to also cross-reference to see --
21 'cause there's systems that mailers can use that get
22 accurate information as far as people that have put in
23 change of addresses and not.
24 Q. Okay. Do you know whether the State Board of
25 Elections uses those change of address resources that
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1 you've just described?
2 A. I don't know. It's available to them I
3 believe.
4 Q. But you don't know whether they actually use
5 those or not?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. There are vendors that we provide information
9 to that are certified vendors for the Postal Service.
10 Q. Okay. And then counsel asked you to describe
11 differences between Exhibit 1 and Exhibit 5. Do you
12 remember those questions?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you recall that Mr. Underwood said that
15 Exhibit 1 is a sample voter verification card used by
16 the Board of Elections?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That's in paragraph 4 of his affidavit, if you
19 look at that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. And then he said that he basically got
22 a copy of that card so he could model the card he mailed
23 after the official card. Did you see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know whether or not Exhibit 5 is any
110
1 different in size to Exhibit 1?
2 A. No, I was only, you know, looking at a
3 photocopy. It looked like it could possibly the
4 dimensions be different, but you can't see good direct
5 lines of the photocopy.
6 Q. Right. You can't tell one way or the other?
7 A. I can't tell one way or the other, or the
8 thickness of the paper.
9 Q. Okay. And you said, I didn't get this, you
10 said that return rate reported by other people that the
11 return -- the lack of cards being returned for
12 Mr. Underwood's mailing was at -- let me rephrase this,
13 make sure I say it the right way.
14 You said something about the people you worked
15 with or who reported to you reported a higher rate of
16 cards being returned than Mr. Underwood did?
17 A. No, not -- I didn't mean it to be that way.
18 It's just we get a lot of feedback by our customers, you
19 know, the Belks of this world and JC Penney's and
20 Netflix and big mailing houses that will also provide us
21 data on all kinds of things, like Netflix on the damage
22 rate of their DVDs going through our high-speed
23 equipment. And so it just -- from everything I see from
24 a service standard and what we, you know, always strive
25 for the best we can deliver, there's something that
111
1 tells me there's something odd about this mailing that
2 it's not a direct reflection that every piece was
3 undeliverable. I don't see how that kind of performance
4 would have been that low.
5 Q. Okay. Well, you said something about the
6 mailing lists can be different, right?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Like if you're doing like -- who did you say
9 you deal with, the companies?
10 A. There are some companies that -- off the top
11 of my head I can't even think of their names, but there
12 are some companies that extract the data. They're an
13 authorized vendor that then sell mailing lists based on
14 not just the address, but who's at the addresses.
15 Q. Right, but let's talk about that for a second.
16 How many times have you discussed or seen data from an
17 outside party company about the number of letters that
18 they sent out that were returned or not returned?
19 A. I don't see so much of that as in my earlier
20 experience that sometimes you could clearly see a bad
21 mailing list versus a good one because of the amount of
22 volume you saw going back, or if it wasn't a first-class
23 mailing, if it was a standard mailing being destroyed
24 because they were old mailing lists.
25 Q. Okay. So have you ever seen any data or had
112
1 any discussions with companies on the issue of
2 whether -- or the number of mailings that they sent to a
3 list that were returned or not returned?
4 A. What -- there will be at times reports on
5 complaints from large mailers in regards to response
6 rates from mailings. We live more by that, but also at
7 times, depending on the mailer and exactly how large of
8 a mailing it was, it would possibly trigger
9 communications and some investigation into why a
10 specific mailing for a mailer was potentially not
11 deliverable.
12 Q. Okay. But so -- we have a report here about
13 cards mailed to a particular list and how many were
14 returned.
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Have you ever looked at any reports similar to
17 that?
18 A. No, not an outside testing of something like
19 that where -- because normally what we're dealing with
20 is they're looking for an anticipated response rate,
21 whether it's triggered by a sale, you know, customer
22 showing up with a specific mailing or a response back
23 from the mailing.
24 Q. That's different than how many cards are
25 returned?
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113
1 A. Right.
2 Q. So you've never really looked at a prior study
3 like this before that you can think of?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. And these other mailings that you were
6 referencing by private sector companies, do you know
7 whether or not they would typically make use of some of
8 these services that do more to determine whether the
9 person has moved?
10 A. Oh, yeah. You know, debit cards, credit
11 cards, you know, they always want that information back.
12 They don't want it forwarded.
13 Q. Right. Those companies are looking to get a
14 response, a positive response from their customer when
15 they mail somebody; is that correct?
16 A. Right. Right. Or I would think they would
17 also be looking for that back, you know, either --
18 they're at times a little bit different in that it might
19 not be -- because they're mailing under a different way
20 to where it's a full-service mailing. So they're going
21 to get the information back electronically and the mail
22 piece will be destroyed by the Postal Service. But
23 these type of mailings aren't mailed under that
24 umbrella, but I would think -- I would think if they
25 mailed something and it was -- you know, the only way
114
1 they know that they should have gotten it back is either
2 it came back or the customer never called to activate
3 the card, you know, in the event of a credit card or a
4 debit card.
5 Q. But I'm just trying to make sure I understand
6 what you said when you were examined by Mr. Beck.
7 You've never actually looked at a study similar to the
8 one that Mr. Underwood conducted where he mailed a list
9 to see how many of the cards came back?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And the studies you're referring to are
12 mailings that commercial companies have made to try to
13 get some sort of consumer response?
14 A. Most of the stuff we get feedback on is
15 commercial mailings.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Because there's a lot more data tied to that
18 mail piece.
19 Q. Okay. But you haven't had any discussions or
20 you haven't looked at any studies about these commercial
21 mailings and how many of the letters were returned
22 because they were addressed to the wrong person?
23 A. No, 'cause normally --
24 Q. Was that no?
25 A. No.
115
1 Q. Now, looking at Exhibit 5, I just want to make
2 sure I understand, your testimony was that -- this is
3 the original?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Under the Postal Service protocols if that
6 letter was delivered to somebody -- if that letter was
7 sent to an address where the addressee no longer lived,
8 it should have been returned by the Postal Service if
9 the Postal Service knew the person didn't live there
10 anymore?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, you've read Exhibit 1, but you're not
13 a -- fair to say you're not an expert on the
14 verification process that the State Board of Elections
15 follows to verify the residence of voters?
16 A. That's safe to say, yes.
17 Q. And so the people on -- the people who were
18 mailed by Mr. Underwood who were listed in Exhibit --
19 let's see what number it is?
20 A. Seven.
21 Q. It's Exhibit -- it's Exhibit 7, but the people
22 who are listed who were mailed are attached to part of
23 Exhibit 3 to his affidavit, do you see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Do you know how many mailings that were
116
1 sent to these individuals by the State Board of
2 Elections or the County Boards before they were put in
3 the removed category?
4 A. Not for certain, no.
5 Q. Okay. Do you know anything about their voter
6 history?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you know how long any of these people may
9 not have voted or had any contact with County Board of
10 Elections?
11 A. No.
12 MR. FARR: Okay. That's all I have.
13 MR. BECK: Okay. Thank you very much.
14 MR. FARR: Thank you, Mr. Roberts.
15 [SIGNATURE RESERVED.]
16 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 4:13 P.M.]
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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117
1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA )
SS: )
2 COUNTY OF WAKE )
3
4
5 I, DEAN ROBERTS, declare under
6 the penalties of perjury under the State of North
7 Carolina that the foregoing is true and correct.
8 Executed on this _______ day of ___________
9 2015, at _____________________, North Carolina.
10
11
12
13 ___________________________
14 DEAN ROBERTS
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
118
1 TRANSCRIPTION CORRECTIONS
2 Case Name: NAACP vs. McCrory and Related Cases
Witness Name: DEAN ROBERTS
3 Deposition Date: May 14, 2015
4
5 PAGE LINE READS SHOULD READ
6 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
7 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
8 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
9 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
10 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
11 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
12 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
13 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
14 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
15 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
16 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
17 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
18 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
19 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
20 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
21 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
22 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
23 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
24 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
25 _____|_____|_________________________|_______________
119
1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA
2 COUNTY OF WAKE
3 C E R T I F I C A T E
4 I, MAREN M. FAWCETT, RPR, a Notary Public in
5 and for the State of North Carolina, do hereby certify
6 that there came before me on May 14, 2015, the person
7 hereinbefore named, who had been previously sworn to
8 testify to the truth and nothing but the truth of his
9 knowledge concerning the matters in controversy in this
10 cause; that the witness was thereupon examined under
11 oath, the examination reduced to typewriting under my
12 direction; and the transcript is a true record of the
13 testimony given by the witness.
14 I further certify that I am neither attorney
15 or counsel for nor related to or employed by, any
16 attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto or
17 financially interested in the action.
18 Signed this the _____ day of May, 2015.
19
20
21 ______________________________
Maren M. Fawcett, RPR
22 Notary Public - North Carolina
Certificate No.: 200621500068
23
24
25
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A
able 9:21 23:9
32:19 47:13
54:5 81:11
88:23 95:19
absentee 85:5,10
86:10
absolutely 5:24
13:25 41:12
42:6 79:12
100:1
accept 33:23
34:1
acceptable 29:5
accepted 30:12
accepting 71:23
access 108:20
accomplish
46:12
accuracy 108:8
accurate 24:6
29:5 59:11
66:13 106:24
108:22
achieve 42:8
acting 7:18 11:8
68:11
action 85:1
119:17
activate 114:2
actual 45:5
additional 97:15
address 16:21
16:22 17:6,7,8
17:9,16 18:9
18:11,16 20:1
20:6,7,13 21:3
22:18 23:2,11
23:15,17,20,24
24:2,3,10,12
24:14,20,25
25:4,5,6,12,16
25:23 26:6,15
27:10 28:16
36:23,23 37:16
37:21,23,25
38:4,6,10 41:4
42:17,20,25
43:16,19 44:9
44:10,21 45:4
45:6,9 46:7
47:3,15 48:25
49:1 51:6,15
51:17,17,24
52:1,8,9,12
53:6 54:1,8,14
54:20,20,22,25
55:4,5,6,13,16
55:24 56:16,17
56:19 58:15,21
59:1,23 60:16
62:4 66:13,14
70:7,9,9,14,14
71:22 75:17
76:14,17,25
78:13,15,19,23
79:15,21 80:7
80:7,8,9,13,23
80:25 81:2,10
81:12,16 88:4
96:4,14,24
98:8,12 99:22
100:2 101:2,7
102:3 105:6,10
105:18,21,25
106:4,9,12,13
106:16,17,19
106:20 107:19
108:25 111:14
115:7
addressed 16:1
18:2 28:16
37:11 48:21
51:3 52:1
55:22 56:15
57:6,11,20
59:20 60:5,15
62:3 72:10
96:10,12 101:7
105:14 114:22
addressee 25:25
64:18 105:5
115:7
addresses 25:8
27:9 38:22,24
38:24 50:25
77:6 108:23
111:14
adult 79:8
affairs 83:8
affidavit 91:16
93:10 108:10
109:18 115:23
affirmed 5:2
ago 11:5,7 50:4
55:24 58:18,21
77:2
agreements 72:7
72:14
ahead 14:2
67:18
Airborne 37:14
airport 7:25 8:1
al 1:4,8,10,13,17
1:22
allegations
87:11,12
ALLISON 3:8
allison@south...
3:11
America 1:19
3:12
amount 25:11
25:13 79:2
111:21
Anderson 82:24
82:25
ANGUAS 3:3
answer 85:1
94:18
anticipate 29:3
anticipated
46:19 112:20
anybody 84:20
anymore 59:23
60:16 62:4
98:5,15 102:8
115:10
Anytime 41:15
applied 17:10
29:12 38:15
44:21 45:11
47:15 79:24
95:7,11 105:1
applies 19:12
apply 16:13 17:7
19:24 20:1
42:8 72:3,16
74:3 77:3
87:16
appropriate
45:5
appropriately
28:14
approximately
11:8 54:18
62:9
April 14:7 93:13
93:19 94:1
97:6 103:14
area 8:12,16,17
8:23,24 13:3,4
13:4 29:20
30:7 35:7 40:3
42:4 61:22
areas 8:20 31:21
32:23 39:21
42:5,5,9,9
arising 82:12
arrived 69:2
Asheboro 7:5
Asheville 3:24
7:4
aside 104:3,19
asked 53:25 92:4
96:22 109:10
asking 100:14
asks 108:5
aspects 71:20,25
Assembly 4:14
14:5
assigned 69:22
associate 86:8
asterisk 95:20
95:21
Atlanta 8:20
attached 4:25
92:10 103:9
115:22
attempt 40:25
attempts 89:19
attended 83:24
84:22
attending 28:1
attention 61:22
64:15 88:15
102:19
attitude 64:22
attorney 5:12
74:13,16,17
108:4 119:14
119:16
audit 72:19 73:3
auditing 72:24
audits 73:4
authorities
74:13
authority 39:9
99:21
authorized
111:13
auto 20:11 44:15
60:23
automatable
18:13
automated
20:21 59:2
62:21 79:25
106:8
automatically
16:25 20:3
31:4 60:22
automation
106:15
available 61:11
109:2
averaging 32:20
awaiting 25:2
aware 26:22
27:15 43:15,15
48:12 49:3
54:4 56:13,21
57:8 65:11,15
66:20,23 72:23
73:2,17 82:13
83:20 89:6
102:5
B
back 10:3 16:18
16:23,25 17:10
19:13,23 20:11
20:15 25:20
26:12,16,20
27:3,6,13,18
28:9,23 29:23
40:24,25 44:21
45:11 47:6,8
47:21,23 48:2
48:9 49:1 50:5
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51:13 55:16,18
55:19 56:9,10
56:13,15,19,20
56:24 59:10,13
60:3,10,16
62:16 63:5,7
64:16 65:24
70:13,18 75:21
77:12 81:1,4,8
85:21 87:10
89:16 96:22
97:2 98:2,6,20
98:21 99:17
100:16 101:21
102:4,5 105:11
105:18 107:23
111:22 112:22
113:11,17,21
114:1,2,9
background
9:15
backup 50:5
bad 38:17
111:20
balance 64:4
balances 61:24
66:4
ballots 85:5,10
86:10
Baltimore 8:19
Banks 7:6 10:25
bar 16:24 19:13
19:23,24 20:2
20:3 23:14
29:12,13,15
30:5,11 31:2
38:15 45:24
46:1 53:12
95:6
bar-coded 16:14
barracks 36:3
37:9,21
Bartlett 4:22
90:7,16 100:6
base 30:3 35:20
35:25 36:6
73:6
based 13:20
29:12 50:10
62:5 99:6
111:13
bases 35:24
basic 26:24
basically 7:11
10:24 13:15
15:25 19:21
42:1 44:16
52:20 71:22
85:15 92:12
106:18 109:21
Beck 3:23 4:10
13:18,25 14:4
14:10 77:17
94:17 102:18
107:2,7,10,16
107:25 108:4
114:6 116:13
beginning 33:14
believe 25:20
48:16 66:1
72:23,25 73:15
82:10 84:3
85:11 90:3
103:7 106:22
106:25 108:19
109:3
Belks 110:19
belong 27:14
38:20 58:12
benefit 15:13
BERT 3:13
best 18:14 38:19
71:3 81:16
97:24 110:25
better 6:3 21:12
39:10,11
beyond 62:13
89:3
big 110:20
bigger 48:6
bin 20:9,13
21:25 52:25
bins 21:23
bit 9:14 41:14
53:13 65:22
76:19 113:18
block 23:12
board 3:17 4:18
4:18,19,20
40:19 41:4,5
43:24 48:5
67:6,24 71:11
81:20 82:7,11
83:3,9,21 84:8
84:10,17 85:22
87:2,12 89:7
89:19 90:8
91:24 96:5
99:4 100:5
101:14 108:12
108:14,24
109:16 115:14
116:1,9
boards 40:20
84:5,11 87:2
116:2
books 40:2
Boone 7:4
border 7:7 63:12
boss 7:16 12:13
12:18
bosses 7:14
bounced 106:14
box 16:7 30:21
30:23 33:18,22
35:10 41:24
43:17 50:17,19
50:22,23 51:2
51:3,5,6,8 58:7
58:22 59:14
75:19,20 76:6
86:15,20,22
98:20
boxes 30:17
50:14,20 51:10
51:11,12 63:11
Bragg 35:12,18
36:3,22 37:22
38:21,22,25
49:9 50:4,5,11
50:16,19 51:8
51:10 72:17
branch 10:4,6
break 6:5,9 49:5
90:24 102:14
breakdowns
60:9
breathe 28:25
39:20
Brennan 9:12,13
Brief 49:6 91:3
102:16
briefly 5:11
bringing 16:10
brings 34:10
broader 22:5
broken 13:3
19:18 34:20
brought 5:15
18:6 88:15
buffer 53:9,14
building 45:23
Burlington 42:1
47:15
butcher 8:8
C
C 3:1 119:3,3
California 16:17
call 8:2,5 12:5
18:4 29:25
30:10 34:4
44:14 69:12
73:20 82:9,16
82:23 83:2,16
83:25 84:1,17
84:24 86:3
called 19:7
34:17 78:5
91:17 114:2
caller 48:7
Camp 35:18
51:11
campus 76:12
76:12
cancel 16:11
canceled 19:16
canceler 19:9
cancellation
85:18
cap 8:17
capacity 1:7
car 88:8 89:1
card 23:25 25:4
25:5 81:11,11
91:24 92:4,4,9
92:9,13 95:9
96:4 100:16
103:23 106:16
106:17 107:19
107:20 109:15
109:22,22,23
114:3,3,4
cards 24:8 67:9
68:2 78:6,6
81:22 82:2
87:13,17 88:1
88:9 89:9
92:23 93:10,13
94:3,11,15,22
96:3,5 97:3,13
97:17,23 98:3
98:10 99:8,12
99:15,24
100:22,22
101:1 103:14
103:20 110:11
110:16 112:13
112:24 113:10
113:11 114:9
Carolina 1:1,3,8
1:10,16,22
2:11 3:17 6:25
7:1,3 9:1 10:3
10:19,20,22
11:2 14:4,7
20:9 30:18
31:17 33:2,8,9
33:24 68:12
69:18 76:20
106:24 117:1,7
117:9 119:1,5
119:22
Carolina-Virg...
7:7
carrier 10:1
12:7,7 16:8
18:18 21:10
24:4 25:1 26:3
26:9,17,21
27:4 29:20
32:2 36:24
52:2,11,17
55:23 56:1,2,5
56:9,10,20,21
56:24 57:25
58:16 59:7,12
59:22 60:13
62:11 68:25
97:25 98:4,7
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98:14 99:7
102:8,10,11
106:18
carriers 12:5
13:10,11,12
25:11,17 55:3
55:8 62:3,22
63:1
case 1:6,15,21
13:14 15:4
27:7 53:1
89:17 90:3
118:2
Cases 118:2
catch 18:15,17
19:2 52:3 53:1
53:2,15,16
56:1
catches 18:11
61:21
catching 51:14
category 59:18
60:24 78:4
116:3
caught 8:14
17:14,15 25:15
42:21,25 43:6
43:7,16,22
52:24 53:3
54:15 55:2,23
56:7 59:2,3,5
59:21 60:22
62:3,10,20,22
65:9
cause 23:1 35:16
45:23 58:8
63:24 72:8
95:16 104:18
108:21 114:23
119:10
caused 48:15
104:1,4
center 8:3 88:9
centers 18:4
certain 16:1
21:6 36:9
39:21 46:14
61:24 63:14
66:4,12 74:5,6
83:16 84:8
85:15,20 101:5
116:4
Certificate
119:22
certified 109:9
certify 63:14
119:5,14
chairman 87:12
chance 17:14
18:13 30:1
38:9 42:2 44:4
44:7 106:23
change 16:20,22
17:5,16 18:16
20:6,13 23:17
23:20,24 24:1
24:3,12,20
25:4,5,7,12,16
37:24 42:17,19
42:25 43:16,19
44:10 46:7
47:3 48:25
51:15,17,24
52:8,12 53:6
54:1,8,14,20
55:4,6,15,24
59:1 70:7
76:14,17 78:12
78:19,23 79:15
80:22 96:14,24
98:12 102:3
105:9,18,21,25
106:4,9,12,13
106:16,17,19
106:19 108:23
108:25
changed 46:2
changes 28:22
channels 88:17
charge 74:10
charges 73:13
74:15,16,18
Charles 4:23
91:11 102:20
104:12 107:18
Charlie 37:13
Charlotte 10:8,9
10:12,16 11:8
34:21 68:11
76:20
check 64:4 89:1
97:11
checked 18:22
106:10
checks 61:24
66:4 106:8
choices 24:11
circumstance
88:18
circumstances
55:25 73:17
78:24
city 7:11,12,13
10:1,11,16
12:7,10,16
13:11 30:19
31:19
clarify 65:22
68:13
class 28:22
34:22 41:18
classes 46:14
61:16
clean 18:10
cleaned 17:22
clear 30:25 43:8
61:4
cleared 61:6
clearly 25:22
111:20
clears 63:8
clerk 50:4,5
52:11
clerks 37:19
38:18
clock 61:9
close 75:12
closed 34:1
closely 29:2
COALITION
3:8
coast 13:3
code 16:13,24
19:13,23,24
20:2,3 21:21
21:22,24 22:13
23:14 27:24
29:16 30:11
31:3 32:2,4
34:25 35:5,9
35:13,14,15
36:2,10,25
37:22 38:6,11
38:15,17 40:8
46:1,24,25
47:23 49:15
50:13 51:8
65:3 68:15,17
69:21 75:18,25
76:12 95:7
coded 29:13
codes 29:12 30:5
35:4 36:1
39:21 45:24
49:10,13,14,18
53:13 65:5
75:14
collect 26:9
collected 61:12
collection 16:7
30:17,21,23
33:17,17 41:24
58:7,8,22
college 27:21,22
27:23,24 28:3
28:8 79:15
82:1 105:9,12
colleges 69:17
82:1
come 37:19
64:20 68:24
69:18 83:8,13
102:4
comes 7:4 16:5
24:7,8 40:24
56:10 63:24,25
coming 8:3
19:15 47:24
48:9 60:3 61:8
63:20 83:15
84:23 85:23
101:21
commercial 30:6
34:10 114:12
114:15,20
Committee4:15
14:6
committing 24:2
common 90:16
communicate
79:13 85:19
communication
87:8,9
communicatio...
84:11 91:20
112:9
companies 111:9
111:10,12
112:1 113:6,13
114:12
company 37:13
91:21 111:17
compare 104:7
104:11,14
complain 23:22
complaints 83:8
83:20 85:4,12
112:5
complete 24:19
completed 54:2
completely 6:2
101:16
composite 33:11
comprehend
101:11
computer 18:7
18:23,25 38:13
43:13 53:8
computers 18:5
47:2
concerned 28:2
concerning
83:12 119:9
CONCLUDED
116:16
conducted 78:3
114:8
conference 1:3
82:8 83:16,25
84:1,17,24
87:1
confident 41:8
confirm 91:13
confused 100:3
congressional
84:15
congressman's
83:10 84:13
connection 78:2
considers 74:7
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consistent 92:25
103:16
consisting 14:8
consumer 83:8
114:13
contact 58:13
83:17 116:9
container 39:16
86:13
continue 18:1
continuing 26:9
contract 49:20
49:23 69:7,9
69:11,12,15,16
73:4
contracted 73:3
contractor 69:13
controversy
119:9
conversation
36:15
conversations
13:16
convoluted
28:13
copy 91:24 93:4
109:22
corner 10:22
correct 15:6
19:6 22:7,15
22:24 26:18
59:16 64:18
65:13 76:24
91:14,19 92:17
96:23 99:18
102:12 106:23
113:15 117:7
corrected 38:14
correcting 94:2
CORRECTIO...
118:1
correlation
34:25
counsel 3:2,7,12
3:17,22 109:10
119:15,16
counter 11:23
counties 44:2
75:5 84:2,4
106:24 107:3
107:10,12
country 8:20
18:3 30:17
31:1 53:11
county 4:18,19
32:10,11,16,18
40:19 41:5
67:6,24 74:24
75:2 81:20
84:5,5,7,8
116:2,9 117:2
119:2
couple 10:9
22:25 23:21
24:16 30:7
49:8 52:4 77:1
98:9
courier 16:10
court 1:1 4:2
15:13 36:16,21
80:20
cover 7:1 80:8
91:16
covered 70:2,11
71:1 73:12
82:11
covers 9:1 71:20
71:22,24 72:7
72:7
create 92:4
creates 106:6
credit 23:25
113:10 114:3
cross 106:9
cross-reference
108:20
cross-referenc...
103:10
cross-referenc...
16:21 52:8
current 6:11
11:13 16:20
57:13 61:3,25
66:5,5
currently 7:18
custodian 65:2
customer 7:22
10:4,6,11
11:15 24:23
58:6,21 72:22
89:4,5 106:17
112:21 113:14
114:2
customers 11:23
25:9,14 110:18
D
D-e-c-h-a-m-b...
7:19
damage 104:2
110:21
data 21:1 24:8
24:22 28:19
30:4,9 31:9,11
31:22 32:16
34:13,18,24
40:1,2 46:10
46:21 48:15,18
48:22 49:1
52:15 53:9,14
54:5,10 57:15
57:19,23 62:2
65:23,25
106:13 110:21
111:12,16,25
114:17
database 52:8
77:2 106:14
108:20
date 40:3 85:16
85:25 86:2,3
95:4 118:3
dated 67:7 85:6
dater 85:24
dates 97:22
day 29:20 30:2
30:18,21,25
31:2 32:21
33:8,9,10 34:8
34:9 39:13
40:1 43:17
44:18 45:12,14
46:20 48:3,4,9
53:23 58:3
59:25 60:9
63:6,8,18
86:19,24 87:18
87:19 89:9
117:8 119:18
day's 21:7
day-to-day
10:15 11:14
days 25:1,3 29:8
29:9,14,15
30:20 33:3,13
41:10 53:18
58:18 64:12
93:21,22,23
98:9
DC 3:5,15
Deakins 2:9 3:18
5:13
deal 65:18 111:9
dealing 112:19
dealings 82:5,6
Dean 1:25 2:3
5:1,10 24:12
117:5,14 118:2
debit 113:10
114:4
deceased 45:10
60:6
DeChambeau
7:19
decided 76:13
decipher 21:3
58:10
decision 17:25
18:5 23:10
Declaration 4:23
91:11 102:20
102:23 104:12
104:15 107:18
declare 117:5
defendants 1:9
1:18,23 3:17
5:14 15:4 78:3
definitely 73:13
definition 103:2
103:3
definitive 101:6
degree 9:17
delay 17:21
65:14,20 66:1
delayed 48:14
48:16 61:19,20
64:8
deliver 11:23
12:4 18:18
25:21 26:5
28:3 29:6
31:23 35:15,25
36:24 37:5,23
38:6,8,10,21
38:23,25 48:6
49:15 50:18,25
51:11 52:17
57:25 60:3,7
60:14 64:11,23
69:1 74:2 76:7
96:11 101:2
105:15 107:24
107:24 110:25
deliverable 28:4
44:16 70:4
96:9 112:11
delivered 11:17
11:19 21:17
29:9,14,17
30:1 31:2,5,8
31:10 32:25
33:3,24,25
36:6,12 38:5
40:1 41:10
42:3,23 45:11
46:19 47:18
48:14,19 50:8
50:15 51:1
53:19 66:7
68:14 74:8
97:4,5 98:1
115:6
deliveries 40:5
60:14
delivering 25:24
26:2 27:22,23
30:4
delivers 21:12
21:14 36:7
73:19
delivery 11:16
16:9,24 21:8
26:25 28:4
29:3,5,19,22
29:23,25 33:5
39:6 45:15
46:16 48:4,9
49:16 52:17,23
53:23 57:25
58:2,13,18
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63:10 70:24
83:12 97:25
denise@disco...
4:5
department 3:13
3:23 82:10
83:13
depend 56:18
dependent 28:8
depending 17:1
19:19 35:10
73:16 88:6
95:19,21 112:7
depends 26:15
Deponent 3:22
deposed 5:17
deposit 60:4,7
60:18
deposition 1:25
2:1 4:17,22
5:15 6:6 13:6
13:21 14:16
15:3 40:16
90:6 104:13
106:21 116:16
118:3
depositions 15:9
deputy 9:5
Desalles 9:18
describe 41:6
109:10
described 88:20
88:22 109:1
describing 34:14
DESCRIPTION
4:13
design 103:24
designated
15:16 60:18
61:5
designed 92:9
desperate 89:2
destinate 53:17
destinating
17:15 20:23
21:25 29:15
42:15 43:2
54:8
destination
17:13 19:24
22:1,8,17,22
42:16 43:3
52:19,20 54:3
destroyed
111:23 113:22
detail 20:20 78:8
detailed 11:7
determine 16:15
23:3 46:22
53:5 54:11
57:8,22 65:21
113:8
determined 20:1
42:18
determines
21:20
difference
101:23 103:13
106:3
differences
104:16 109:11
different 10:9,17
11:22 12:12
13:10 17:4
19:20 22:1
23:21 29:11
30:19 31:23,25
34:12,13,13
37:20 39:9
60:9 61:16
63:25 65:4
80:2 104:21
110:1,4 111:6
112:24 113:18
113:19
differently
20:14
dig 34:24 46:1
46:21 48:17
54:5 58:5
65:21,23,25
digging 54:11
digit 32:5 34:20
digits 22:12
dimensions
103:25 104:18
110:4
direct 6:16
68:17 69:2
91:21 102:19
110:4 111:2
direction 119:12
directly 12:19
12:24 60:2
68:18 69:19,21
75:11
director 90:8
100:5
DISCOVERY
4:2
discuss 72:14
discussed
111:16
Discussion
77:10 91:1
discussions
112:1 114:19
disparity 97:22
dispatch 63:8,17
64:5
dispatched 60:8
60:20 63:15
disposition 50:7
distributes 72:3
distribution 8:2
district 1:1,1
6:13,25 7:2,10
7:17,18,20,21
7:24 8:9,25 9:2
10:23 12:8,25
34:3,4,16
74:13,17,20,23
75:1 82:9,11
83:1,5,6 84:4
districts 7:1 8:24
Division 37:14
document 13:19
67:15,16,17
68:5 90:12
documents
13:13 69:23
doing 21:25
30:14 31:10
36:19 40:9
52:14 53:5
73:14 95:8
111:8
dollar 23:23
domestic 13:8
70:2 71:5,7,13
71:16 72:13,15
73:9
domestically
71:21
door 37:17
dormitories
27:22
dormitory 27:21
draw 53:10
drive 23:8,13
39:24 88:8
driven 89:1
drives 39:12
driving 11:20
drop 30:16
dropoff 16:10
dropped 16:7
30:22
dropping 30:19
drops 30:21 55:8
drugs 26:4
Duke 1:13 75:10
75:12
Durham 3:10
12:23 32:7
74:21
DVDs 110:22
E
E 3:1,1 119:3,3
earlier 43:11
61:2 65:23
78:22 106:7,21
111:19
easier 79:19
easily 76:23
east 10:25
ebbs 34:7
edit 40:1
educated 81:17
97:24
education 9:16
educational 9:15
effectiveness
46:3
efficiencies
11:20
efficiency 46:3
efficient 41:20
eight 8:24
Eighteen 93:23
either 12:6,7
16:11 20:14
24:11 25:16,17
28:5 42:16,18
42:25 47:13
48:8 51:10
62:21 69:13,19
75:9 103:6
106:16 113:17
114:1
elaborate 41:14
elaborating
56:11
elapse 42:24
election 82:6,8
82:17,18,19,20
84:5,11 104:25
Elections 3:17
4:14,18,19
14:5 40:20
41:5,5 43:24
48:5 67:6,25
71:11 81:21
82:7,11 83:3,9
83:21 84:8,10
84:17 85:22
87:2,2 89:7,19
90:8 91:25
96:6 99:4
100:5 101:14
108:12,14,25
109:16 115:14
116:2,10
electronic 44:6
electronically
113:21
eliminate 103:10
ELLIS 3:3
EMILY 3:9
Emmanuel
96:12
employed 73:22
119:15,16
employee 13:9
25:8 74:11,14
74:18
employees 6:17
21:10 50:20
64:21 65:1,7
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73:22,24 76:1
employment
9:21,22
enables 41:20
encoding 18:4
encompass 7:20
74:20 75:1
encompasses
8:19 74:23
ended 87:7
endorsed 17:1,8
70:15,16 81:3
endorsement
17:5 44:20,22
ensuring 11:17
39:25
enter 23:25
entered 24:1,23
24:23
entering 40:5
entire 25:7
entities 72:19
entries 24:9
entrusted 27:25
envelope 86:13
equipment
16:23 19:8
21:13 24:8
80:4 110:23
error 38:11
especially 82:6
85:4,20
ESQ 3:3,8,9,19
3:23
essentially 89:9
establishes
71:16
estimate 43:9
et 1:4,8,10,13,17
1:22
ethics 65:4
evaluation 21:19
evening 53:22
60:4,18 87:20
event 26:7 83:17
114:3
everybody 79:3
exact 104:17
exactly 21:3
39:4 46:17
57:23 76:9
84:22 101:11
108:8 112:7
examination 4:9
4:10 5:6 95:9
102:17 108:2
119:11
examined 114:6
119:10
example 27:20
35:13 72:16
75:22 105:8
examples 105:8
excellent 30:1
excerpts 4:22
90:6
excuse 29:7
93:19 96:6
97:5
Executed 117:8
executive 10:14
90:8 100:5
exhibit 4:13,14
4:17,18,19,21
4:22,23 14:12
14:13,15,20,22
14:24 15:17
40:14 66:22
67:2,4,19,20
67:23,24 69:5
69:5 71:7 77:7
77:17,20,22,24
79:23 89:18
90:4,5,5,20
91:2,7 92:1,10
92:15 93:1,4,7
93:8 94:22
95:10,24
102:19 103:9
104:7,8,11,13
104:14,14,15
104:22,22,23
105:1 109:11
109:11,15,25
110:1 115:1,12
115:18,21,21
115:23
Exhibits 4:12,25
81:19
expect 20:19
29:4 66:3 71:4
expected 55:9
expedite 88:16
expeditious
64:22
experience 50:3
76:19 82:3
103:16 105:16
111:20
expert 103:24
115:13
expired 55:5,6
55:16,22 56:11
98:25
explain 17:18
20:19,24
explained 57:24
89:23
explanation
94:14
explanations
103:19
express 68:24
69:1
extent 26:13,15
external 32:3
66:10
externally 30:15
extract 111:12
F
F 119:3
face 74:4
facer 19:9
facilities 16:6
21:5 61:15
64:6
facility 30:8 35:2
39:15 61:3
68:18 69:4,13
69:15,20
facing 73:13
fact 35:4
faculty 72:4 74:2
75:24
failure 39:14
46:20
faint 19:13
fair 34:3 57:15
115:13
fairly 104:3
falls 64:25 72:9
false 69:8
family 24:13
105:22,23
far 24:22 28:2
29:2 34:24
45:16 73:9
95:23 108:22
Farr 3:19 4:9
5:7,12 13:23
14:2,9,11,14
14:20 49:4,7
67:2,18 77:7
77:11,18,23
90:23 91:5
94:21 102:13
102:15 107:1,5
107:11,14
108:1,3 116:12
116:14
farther 33:10
father 106:2
favor 95:8
Fawcett 2:14 4:3
119:4,21
Fayetteville 10:5
10:7 47:16,17
47:18
federal 74:9,15
feedback 46:14
110:18 114:14
felon 103:7
107:18
felons 103:10
107:24
female 9:10
fifteen 97:16,17
Fifteenth 3:4
figure 22:18,21
figured 47:2
file 16:21 52:8,9
filed 43:16 47:3
51:17 54:14
85:12
fill 23:20,20 24:3
24:5,11,12
51:24 59:1
76:14 78:12,19
78:23
filled 55:15
80:22 102:3
filling 25:16
final 21:3 30:13
39:16,17 52:14
53:17
finalization
75:15
finalize 18:8
20:25 23:13
28:4
finalized 76:10
finalizing 23:1
financial 41:19
financially
119:17
find 28:18 57:7
58:5,19 73:13
81:15
finds 60:14
fine 6:6,9 8:7
19:18 36:20
41:16 65:6
finish 36:17 68:2
80:17
first 5:2 9:10
10:18 18:23
19:2,7 20:16
21:17 22:12
29:21,22 34:22
41:18 53:19
91:17
first-class 11:25
15:21 16:3
29:1,8,10
31:24 33:4
41:22 64:25
65:19 66:7
70:11 111:22
fit 59:18
fits 103:25
five 29:21 107:8
flag 16:24
flagged 51:25
54:2,7
flats 61:17
flows 34:7
focus 11:20
61:22 91:21
focused 64:10
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 36 of 50
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follow 51:21
70:1,23 71:17
74:2
following 73:8
86:24 87:15
follows 5:5
101:15 115:15
foregoing 117:7
forever 55:10
forget 43:4
95:19
forgive 107:14
Forks 2:10 3:19
4:3
form 24:4,20
25:16 42:18
43:16 46:7
54:1 59:1
76:14 78:13,24
79:15 80:23
94:17 98:12
102:3
Forsyth 4:18,19
67:6,24 81:20
Fort 35:12,18
36:3,22 37:21
38:20,22,24
49:9 50:4,5,11
50:16,19 51:8
51:10 72:17
forward 28:5
45:9 75:16,20
78:18 80:15
81:5 95:6
96:10,13,19
forwardable
28:6 45:17
47:14
forwarded
13:19 17:1
20:15 24:15
79:20 80:25
96:21 113:12
forwarding 25:2
25:6 48:25
55:3,21 70:11
98:25
found 52:13
79:18 80:6
88:15
four 13:2 30:21
four-hour 63:11
four-year 9:17
frame 11:3 29:5
53:7
fraud 24:2 26:4
front 15:2 18:6
29:22 38:12
95:20,21
full 9:16
full-service
30:10 113:20
further 107:25
108:2 119:14
future 85:14
G
G 3:14
games 32:8
gamut 11:25
gamuts 71:22
Gary 4:22 90:7
100:6
geared 48:17
general 4:14 9:5
9:6,7,10 14:4
82:20
generally 16:5
22:13 27:24
38:19 48:8,13
65:23 73:15
83:9 88:5,12
97:1
generate 25:4,11
generated 25:8,8
25:13 44:5,5
80:3 106:16,17
generates 80:4
getting 17:13
29:3,13 30:1
31:10 33:16
40:16 48:19
53:16 58:17
66:6 75:24
77:15 85:5
Gill 3:23 14:2
gill.beck@usd...
3:25,25
give 11:11 18:8
24:4 26:11,20
27:6,12,18
28:8,19 37:17
46:13 56:24
76:15 78:19
81:16 95:19
96:20 100:16
105:8
given 25:19 30:8
30:21 32:21,21
32:21 38:20
60:13 96:14,24
98:11 99:17
119:13
giving 26:16
27:3 30:12
37:5 56:20
go 5:19 14:2
16:2,15,16,25
17:6 20:10,11
20:15 21:1,24
22:18 32:15
39:2,22 47:13
47:17 48:21
50:6 51:13
54:24 56:13,15
58:14 59:20
62:16 63:13
67:18 68:22
70:5,14 74:17
75:21 76:8
77:8,12 86:6
87:10 88:16,17
88:25 89:3,16
90:24,25 102:5
goal 33:4,10
42:7
goes 16:14 19:8
19:23 22:22
65:2,3 68:17
68:20 75:11,13
going 8:3,5
16:15,16,16,24
17:6,7,9 18:1,1
18:2,15,17
19:11,22,24,25
20:5,8,10,10
20:12,17 23:9
23:14 25:21,24
26:2 27:12
28:22 29:4,13
30:24 31:13
32:2,4,5,6,6,16
33:19 34:1
35:18,21 38:17
41:24 42:2
43:7 44:8 45:1
46:23,24 47:14
47:17,21 50:19
51:4 52:9 55:7
58:3 59:14
60:10 62:16
63:18 67:5,7
67:15 70:17
71:18 74:15
77:18,25 81:7
85:7,17,21
86:7,16,17
90:19,20 97:2
105:23 110:22
111:22 113:20
good 5:8 17:5,14
17:16,23 18:10
18:10,11,13,16
20:12 31:10
38:9,10 39:13
42:19 44:4,10
47:14 49:4
54:20 56:16
66:13 76:22
78:21 79:2
84:11 110:4
111:21
goods 69:14
gosh 8:14
gotten 25:4
45:25 101:21
114:1
govern 49:23
69:24
government
74:9
Governor 1:7
graduating
78:22
great 10:2 28:25
31:6 36:15
44:7 88:25
greater 32:7
Greensboro
6:13,21,22,23
6:25 7:2,13 8:1
8:9,25 12:17
13:4 20:8,10
21:1,4 22:16
22:17 31:18,19
68:18 83:1,5
95:16
Greenville 7:6
ground 5:20
group 6:8 22:5
guaranteed
41:18
guard 8:15
guess 12:2 44:1
44:3 63:24
81:14,17 97:24
99:20 108:8
guidelines 70:1
72:10
Guilford 74:23
guy 8:9 9:7
guys 12:4 26:8
H
half 7:3 31:17
hand 45:16
61:18 64:8
77:5 80:12,12
90:5,19
handbook 13:12
handbooks
13:10
handed 35:23
77:24 91:6
handle 11:25
27:25 29:1
37:24 50:7
69:22,25 70:3
70:15 71:6
72:11 75:7
handled 10:15
64:21 72:20
73:15 74:12,19
handling 66:24
72:20 74:16
hands 33:22
39:3 74:8
85:16 95:25
98:2,6
handwriting
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 37 of 50
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17:24 18:10
handwritten
44:3
happen 11:3
25:17 44:11
53:18,22 81:25
85:14
happened 58:6
68:7
happening
25:18
happens 48:11
57:23 86:19
hard 57:8
hard-headed
101:9
head 8:9 63:21
76:9 83:23
111:11
heading 64:25
headquarters
61:23
heard 18:21
55:14 82:13
106:22
held 10:8,17
14:6
help 36:21
helpful 9:3
50:10 70:20
77:8 78:1
hereinbefore
119:7
hereto 119:16
hey 23:2 26:12
44:8 46:18
48:16 55:12
58:14 70:8
high 9:16 108:5
high-growth
40:3
high-level 7:14
high-speed
110:22
higher 61:22,23
110:15
Highway 3:9
historically
39:11
history 9:21,22
116:6
hit 45:25
hits 58:9
hold 25:1
holds 25:1
Holly 40:4
home 36:15
105:10,13
homes 26:4
hopefully 23:20
86:17
hotel 72:7,9,10
72:10
hours 11:21
61:18
house 12:5 21:12
25:21,25 26:7
27:3,5
houses 110:20
housing 35:25
HR 12:1
human 23:11
hundred 30:7
62:9,14,17
74:19 107:6,10
hurts 34:7
I
I-95 10:25
IBM 30:15,16
66:11
ID 16:13 19:14
idea 11:11 24:19
62:5 83:2,7
97:21 102:11
ideal 103:25
ideally 85:17
103:24
identification
14:13,22 67:4
67:20 77:22
90:4 91:2
identified 4:13
46:6 47:5
image 16:12
18:6 19:10
22:23
imagine 62:6
impossible
20:20
impression 69:6
imprisonment
65:7
incident 65:18
65:19
include 71:23
includes 42:5,5
103:4
including 7:23
incoming 21:7
INDEX 4:7,12
indicate 108:10
indicated 99:9
106:21
indicating 57:16
77:15 105:2
indirect 6:17
indirectly 12:9
12:15
individual 24:11
27:23 50:23
56:2,6 90:7
105:23
individuals
50:14 116:1
informal 6:8
information
16:22 18:1,7
22:24 23:25
24:1,6 29:11
31:7 95:3,17
95:19,23 104:5
104:23 108:22
109:8 113:11
113:21
initiated 82:23
inputs 106:9,12
inquire 58:16
Inspection 73:1
73:16
inspections
72:25
instance 74:11
75:10
instances 65:11
65:12 105:17
intended 54:22
54:25 61:21
intentionally
64:24 65:8
interested 47:1
47:19 85:8
119:17
internal 29:11
32:1 71:18
investigation
58:19 72:25
112:9
isolated 44:8
47:11,12 63:20
64:1 70:17
88:4
issue 40:10 66:3
83:17 85:11
105:25 112:1
issued 15:4
issues 15:16
70:19 82:12
83:12,15 84:23
85:7,8 87:1
104:1 106:6
IV 3:13
J
Jason 7:19 8:5,8
JC 110:19
job 11:11 31:10
65:6
jobs 9:24 10:23
JOHN 3:13
john.russ@us...
3:16
Joint 4:14 14:5
JR 3:3
July 11:9,10
66:19
jump 88:8
June 91:12
97:17 99:9
103:14
junior 106:3,5,5
Justice 3:8,13,23
K
K 3:3
K-r-i-s-t-e-n
8:15
keep 25:24 26:2
47:4 55:10
84:20 88:23
keeping 40:4
key 22:24
keystrokes
22:25
kick 38:17
kind 13:2 18:21
28:13 46:7
72:9 103:16
111:3
kinds 12:13
110:21
KIRKLAND 3:3
knew 21:1 83:17
98:4,15 115:9
know 5:22,25
6:2,6 8:13 12:1
12:4 16:2 20:2
20:5 23:4,6
24:25 25:17,20
25:22 26:3,5,6
26:9,10 28:9
29:9,24,25
30:12,13 31:22
32:1,4,5,6,7,9
32:10,20 33:8
36:10,19 39:15
39:19 40:7,15
43:23 45:5,23
45:24 46:17,20
46:23 47:13
48:4,10,13
49:22,24 50:8
50:11 52:6,7
53:3,8 54:6,6,6
54:9,9 55:5,9,9
56:12,14,14,15
57:2,23 59:12
59:17 61:8
62:8,8,8,25
63:17,20 64:7
65:1 66:1,8
67:12 71:1,4,5
71:24 72:24
73:10 74:5,9
74:12 76:2,5,7
76:9,18 78:9
79:1,3 80:8,10
80:11 82:4,7
82:16 83:4,6
83:18 84:10
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90:11 96:7
97:25 98:7,8
101:8,13,17
102:10,20,23
103:3,8,8
104:1,4,20
106:3 107:9,22
108:24 109:2,4
109:25 110:2
110:19,24
112:21 113:6
113:10,11,17
113:25 114:1,3
115:25 116:5,8
knowing 51:18
62:13
knowledge
26:14,24 50:11
52:2 56:2,6
59:7 99:6
119:9
knowledgeable
55:9
knows 23:2,10
26:3 59:22
60:15 102:8
Kristen 8:15
L
label 76:23,25
79:16 80:1,5
80:24 95:2,11
95:13 96:8,16
96:25
labels 79:25
Labor 13:9
lack 110:11
Lancaster 10:19
large 50:17
112:5,7
larger 104:19
late 46:16 68:24
69:2
law 73:12 97:12
lawsuit 5:14
lawyers 5:13
leadership 82:9
League 1:10 3:7
learn 50:6
leave 24:24 26:8
77:19 80:9
89:16 106:19
leaves 80:21
leaving 25:24
left 17:25 25:6
26:12 45:8
74:10 105:10
leg 17:12
LEGAL 4:2
Legislative 4:14
14:5
Lejeune 35:19
51:11
length 28:25
31:6
lengths 89:1
let's 11:3 13:23
14:20 15:19,19
42:11 49:5
51:13,23 55:15
59:20 67:18
75:21 77:12,16
77:19 87:10
89:16 90:25
93:3,6 111:15
115:19
letter 12:5,7,7
16:3,5 18:14
18:22 21:9,9
21:11 26:17
27:4 28:15,17
29:21 32:24
36:24 39:16
42:12 48:23
52:1,22 53:19
54:21 55:16
56:1,19,24
57:17 59:9,14
60:12 62:3,22
62:23 63:1
64:11 98:20
100:11 115:6,6
letter's 21:17
54:2
letters 19:12
22:4 26:20
28:14 31:8
41:9,11 46:6
46:19 47:5
48:1,21,24
51:14 52:10
54:1,14 57:5
57:11,17,20
59:20 60:14
61:1,17 62:2
63:5 64:16,22
64:23 65:12
66:9,22 75:24
88:24 90:17
111:17 114:21
level 10:21 12:18
12:25 29:5
34:19
levels 11:22
lift 16:12
line 87:8 90:9,10
118:5
lines 110:5
list 5:19 67:9
68:2 71:8
92:20 103:9,11
103:22 104:3
105:22 108:9
111:21 112:3
112:13 114:8
listed 15:17 38:5
96:4,15,25
115:18,22
lists 111:6,13,24
litigation 78:3
little 9:14,25
10:10 15:9
20:19 21:9
41:14 44:23
45:4 53:13
63:11 65:22
76:19 100:2
113:18
live 12:10 23:7
25:23 26:7,16
28:25 39:20
55:12 59:22
60:15 62:4
98:4,15 102:8
112:6 115:9
lived 24:14 37:9
47:15 115:7
lives 26:14 28:9
35:22 51:16
58:12 62:22
living 15:10
25:19 27:2,3,5
36:3 37:8
56:13 71:22
105:6,13
107:19
LLOYD 1:7
local 19:18,19
19:20 21:20,21
21:24 30:24
34:8 41:6,18
74:13,17
locally 16:16
location 16:10
23:19 29:13
50:17 60:4
75:13 85:21
locations 8:4
11:15 18:3
30:19 60:19
85:20
long 5:19 31:7
31:22 32:16,24
36:8 42:22
45:19 46:11,14
47:5,5,7,25
48:22,24 60:25
63:4 64:15
65:23 116:8
longer 24:25
26:12 28:9,16
50:9 51:16,25
53:10 55:8,12
55:20 58:12,20
96:4,7 98:9
115:7
look 13:13 14:24
22:23 23:3
34:20,22 39:21
40:9,10 66:2
71:8 77:19
89:17 90:20
109:19
looked 7:2 26:23
40:17 92:13,25
95:5 110:3
112:16 113:2
114:7,20
looking 45:24
48:18,20 52:7
53:8 110:2
112:20 113:13
113:17 115:1
looks 19:1 58:10
104:19
lookup 80:5
losing 65:5
lot 11:19,20 12:1
12:16 19:12
23:7,22 25:9
26:3 27:9 31:9
34:19 35:7,24
41:21 43:10,11
44:2 50:16
51:3 54:10
58:5 61:22,22
61:23 70:19
75:10,11 79:18
80:6 82:4
105:24 106:1
110:18 114:17
LOUIS 1:13
low 104:3 111:4
lower 10:21
12:25
M
M 1:13 2:14 4:3
119:4,21
M41 13:11
machine 19:9,16
19:21 43:15
52:23,25
machinery
16:11,19 52:23
machines 21:22
mad 80:21
mail 7:24 8:3
11:17,19,25
12:4 13:8
15:21,25 16:3
16:3,5,11,12
16:14,19,20,25
17:1,12 18:5
18:14,14,15,19
19:10,11,14,15
19:17,19 20:2
20:2,10,12,14
21:1,6,7,9,9,11
21:25 22:13
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24:7 25:1,20
25:22,25 26:2
26:9,12,16
27:3,6,12,18
28:1,8,22 29:1
29:4,8,9,11,12
29:19,21 30:4
30:7,8,9,11,16
30:16,23 31:2
31:4,10,24
32:15,20 33:5
33:18,23 34:1
34:10 35:16,18
35:21,25 36:24
37:4,11,17,18
38:5,18 39:16
39:17,25 40:3
40:6,18 41:18
41:22 43:8,11
43:20,21 44:11
44:13,14,15,16
44:19,24 45:10
45:15,17,17,20
45:23,25 46:2
46:3,14,15
47:11,14,14,16
48:13,14 50:4
50:5,7,9,15
51:4,12 52:9
52:16,16,18,22
53:1,12,16
55:10,21 56:9
57:24 58:1,1,7
58:14,15,16,16
58:20 60:1,1,5
60:6,7,10,20
60:20 61:4,16
61:16,19,20,25
62:14,16 63:8
63:15,18,20,25
64:1,5,8,25
65:19,24 66:6
66:7,12,15,24
68:14,16,20,24
69:1,11,20,22
69:25 70:3,4,4
70:10,24 71:5
71:6,8,13,16
71:21,23,23,25
72:3,8,11,13
72:20,20 73:19
74:2,7,12,14
75:7,10,13,15
75:16,20,22,25
77:14 78:18
79:2 80:24
83:12 85:21,24
86:5,11 88:3,5
88:5,17,19
89:15,20 91:21
95:3 98:8 99:2
99:22 100:2
101:2,3,6,13
103:23 104:9
104:20,25
105:11,14
106:4,5,8
107:24 108:15
113:15,21
114:18
mailbox 56:19
59:10
mailed 16:6
32:17 42:23
43:5,23 44:3
44:17 48:23
53:21 79:17
90:17 92:19
93:14 96:3
99:8 103:14
107:20 108:11
109:22 112:13
113:23,25
114:8 115:18
115:22
mailer 20:3
30:10 112:7,10
mailers 30:6,6
104:5 108:21
112:5
mailing 4:21
42:23 51:6
76:25 78:3,7
80:15 92:5,10
93:18 94:7,12
99:14,23
102:22,25
103:22,25
104:3,18
107:17 108:9
108:11 110:12
110:20 111:1,6
111:13,21,23
111:23,24
112:8,10,22,23
113:19,20
mailings 41:2,6
101:18 104:16
105:3 112:2,6
113:5,23
114:12,15,21
115:25
mailroom 37:19
76:8
mailrooms 82:5
mails 81:6
maintain 50:20
51:11
maintaining
11:21
maintenance
67:9 68:2 71:9
major 75:4
majority 99:12
making 60:14
85:4,15,20
102:22
man's 89:1
manage 12:15
managed 10:6
management
10:3
manager 6:12
6:18 7:17,18
7:21 10:6,9,11
10:21 13:1
83:1
managers 10:12
10:13 13:2
manual 13:8,9,9
24:3 38:18
70:3 71:6,8,13
71:16 72:13,16
73:9
manuals 13:7
map 7:2
Maren 2:14 4:3
119:4,21
mark 13:24 14:9
14:11,20 67:18
90:20
marked 14:13
14:22 67:4,20
77:17,22 90:4
91:2,7 104:13
104:15 106:4
marketing 82:9
83:1,7 91:20
markings
104:23
massive 21:23
master 20:17
math 97:11
matter 15:10
matters 119:9
Matthews 10:20
McCRORY 1:7
118:2
mean 6:23,24
17:3 33:14
36:19 39:11
47:9 54:4
70:24 78:17
79:5 89:3 90:1
96:10 99:20
108:7,17
110:17
means 24:13
26:10 55:2,23
81:7 89:4,23
96:11
meant 41:23
measure 29:8,10
66:3,9
measured 11:21
41:22
mechanism
63:13
mechanisms
15:20
meet 84:12
meeting 4:18,20
71:12 84:14
meetings 84:15
Megan 9:12,13
members 3:17
71:12
mentioned 27:4
mentioning
34:11
Merileaf 23:8,8
23:10,12,13,15
met 5:11
meter 71:24
methodology
102:21,24
108:6,17
metro 8:17
91:17 96:6,21
102:6,21,23
mid-Carolinas
9:1 10:23
mid-October
82:22
MIDDLE 1:1
miles 89:2
military 35:16
35:16,20,22,23
35:24 37:5,18
37:25 38:8,20
39:3 49:12,17
49:21,24 50:1
50:13,13 51:1
51:12 72:7,17
73:5
millions 53:11
53:12,12,12
mind 56:11
minutes 4:18,20
67:6,24 68:6
71:11 84:20
misheard 107:2
missed 38:2
46:24
missing 23:4
Mocksville
104:10
model 109:22
monitor 45:14
45:14,16,22
61:3
month 32:21
93:18 94:6
months 11:9
Morganton 7:5
morning 5:8
44:14 61:10
64:2
Mount 42:2
63:25
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mountains 13:4
move 23:19
24:19 25:15
27:13 66:15
76:13 105:18
105:23
moved 10:2,3,5
10:8 25:6,23
27:8 45:8
47:16 51:16,19
51:23 56:3,6
58:21 59:13
76:25 102:3,5
103:6 113:9
moving 26:2
multiple 27:10
35:3,4
N
N 3:1
N.W 3:4,14
NAACP 1:3 3:2
118:2
name 5:9,11
7:18 8:8 9:11
24:10,13 26:5
80:9,9 101:3
106:1 118:2,2
named 90:7
119:7
names 27:10
111:11
NASH 2:9 3:18
nationwide
54:18
NC 3:10,20,24
4:4,14
near 7:25 8:1
63:12 104:5
necessarily
49:22 69:9
78:23 107:22
necessary 22:25
need 6:9 15:11
16:4 20:4
55:23 58:14
68:1 70:20
74:1 95:18
needed 17:22
needs 16:12 18:8
20:14 53:10
neither 119:14
Netflix 110:20
110:21
network 8:2
never 25:12
28:22 32:4,7
54:22 56:12
57:2 99:2
113:2 114:2,7
new 17:7,8,9
40:5,20 44:21
45:10 47:15
57:16,19 59:13
66:12,17 70:8
70:9,13,14
76:23 78:14
79:21 80:13,25
81:2,10,16
nice 80:20
night 29:18 30:9
43:9,22 46:18
58:2
nights 9:17 43:9
43:10
nighttime 21:6
nine 11:8
nixie 95:3
nods 59:8 92:16
non-felons
107:24
nondelivery
103:17
normal 88:17
89:3
normally 18:18
21:5 34:22
38:10 39:2,11
44:13,18 58:10
96:17 112:19
114:23
North 1:1,3,8,10
1:16,22 2:11
3:17 6:25 7:1,3
7:6 9:1 10:2,20
10:22 11:2
14:4,7 20:8
30:17 31:17
33:2,8,24
68:11 69:18
76:19 106:23
117:1,6,9
119:1,5,22
northern 31:16
Notary 5:3
119:4,22
notice 4:17 5:14
15:3 19:12
notify 55:12
70:7 78:14
nowadays 27:9
46:4 57:2
number 23:4
53:25 57:11
87:13 93:3,7
95:20 102:19
111:17 112:2
115:19
numbers 101:23
nutshell 12:2
O
o'clock 43:8
oath 119:11
Objection 94:17
observe 81:11
occasionally
65:7 68:23
occur 27:12
occurred 94:20
occurs 105:20
October 67:25
87:3
odd 58:10
101:24 102:1
111:1
offended 36:20
office 6:12,19,20
10:21 13:1
16:8 24:5,18
34:19 35:3,11
35:19 39:20
40:4,8 49:24
50:14,23 60:17
61:23 63:7,10
63:12 68:20,23
69:7,11,12
83:10,11 84:13
84:13 85:23
86:15,20,22
98:20
offices 7:12
10:24 11:16
12:16,18 31:23
34:13,18 35:7
39:9 63:22
64:1,5 73:3
84:6,7 107:11
official 1:7
109:23
officially 104:25
Ogletree 2:9
3:18 5:12
oh 8:14 38:13
58:6,19 93:25
113:10
OIG 73:1,16
okay 5:19 6:7,10
6:14,18 7:8 8:5
8:22 9:3,13,20
11:6,11 12:3,8
12:20,22 13:5
13:23 14:9,20
15:19,22 17:11
18:20 20:16
22:1,11,20
23:3,16 24:16
24:25 26:13,19
27:20 29:16
31:6,15,21
32:15,23 33:13
33:20 34:3
35:6,12 36:2
36:18 37:8,12
37:15 38:3
39:5,6,18
40:13 41:1,13
42:4,11,22
43:5 44:7 45:3
45:13,24 46:10
47:1,25 49:4,8
49:20 50:10
51:9,13,21,23
52:10,21 53:18
53:21,24 54:13
54:24 55:25
58:24 60:12
61:7 62:12,25
63:4 65:10
66:17,25 67:13
67:23 68:5,6
68:13,21 69:5
70:19,21 71:7
72:2,12 73:18
75:1 76:11,21
77:4,7 78:16
78:21 80:14
81:18,25 82:23
83:24 84:5,20
84:23 85:2
86:1,19,25
87:5,10,15,21
88:7 89:8,16
89:22 90:15,19
91:9,11,15,23
92:3,12,19
93:9,25 94:1
94:14,22 95:15
95:24 96:8,14
96:18 97:2,15
98:3,23 99:1,3
99:8 100:20,25
101:17,25
102:13 107:25
108:1,10,17,24
109:7,10,21
110:9 111:5,25
112:12 113:5
114:16,19
115:25 116:5
116:12,13
old 45:23 55:7
111:24
once 32:25 47:5
47:25 61:11
68:2
one's 106:2,2
ones 47:1,19
48:6 63:10
99:25 101:20
online 23:22,24
24:9 63:13
106:19
onus 55:11
oOo- 4:6,11
open 82:10
84:11
opening 87:8
operation 19:22
operations 6:12
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6:19,20 10:11
10:15,21 11:14
13:1,8 19:20
72:17
order 21:13 25:2
55:21 83:14
98:25
orientation 65:3
original 19:10
77:19 93:18
95:10,25 115:3
originating
52:25
Otis 3:24
ought 100:11
Outer 7:6 10:25
outgoing 17:14
20:22 21:6,18
22:2,3,4,14
29:13 42:13,16
42:25 43:7,8
43:11,13,14
44:8 46:6 47:2
51:15 52:5
53:2,5,15
87:19 89:15
106:8,10,14
outside 35:8
111:17 112:18
overnight 41:17
41:18,22
oversaw 10:12
10:22,24
oversee 7:12
11:14 13:2
oversees 7:22
12:16 83:7
Oversight 4:15
14:5
P
P 3:1,1,23
P.C 2:9 3:18
P.M 2:5 116:16
P.O 50:17,19,22
51:2,3,5,5,10
63:11 75:19,20
76:6
package 11:24
page 4:8 67:8
68:1 90:9,10
90:15 91:13,16
91:16,17 93:9
118:5
pages 14:8
paid 31:1
paper 110:8
paragraph 92:7
97:3 99:9
109:18
parents' 105:10
105:13
PARS 44:15
64:1
part 28:21 40:23
55:11 63:15
66:11 69:10
70:2 78:2
115:22
participated
84:2
particular 51:24
87:1 103:11
107:19 112:13
parties 119:16
parts 33:8
party 111:17
Patrick 1:7
13:18,21
pay 23:23,23
30:15 50:21
64:15
peers 12:13
penalties 117:6
Penney's 110:19
Pennsylvania
9:19 10:2
people 6:14 12:8
23:22 24:19
25:15 26:11,16
26:20 27:3,5,8
27:12,16 30:16
36:22 37:8,9
37:18 39:22
40:20 51:1
55:12 56:8
57:2,4,16
58:25 59:9,17
60:15 96:3
98:8 99:3
101:6,18 102:2
102:7 105:17
106:1 108:11
108:22 110:10
110:14 115:17
115:17,21
116:8
percent 18:15
21:11,12 33:4
33:11 34:6
41:9,23 42:2,8
54:6,7,13,18
54:21,24 55:2
59:1,2,5 62:7,8
62:9,9,14,17
62:20,21,25
64:14 74:19
percentage 25:7
26:24 30:3
52:24
perfectly 36:15
performance
111:3
performing 35:1
39:22 40:11
perjury 117:6
permanently
10:18
person 17:25
20:6 22:22
25:6 27:8 28:1
28:9,15 32:17
37:6 42:23
43:17 48:21
50:8 51:16,19
51:25 53:6
54:21 55:11
56:16,18,23,23
58:12,20 59:13
59:22 62:22
72:8 81:6
86:20 98:7,11
98:15 99:22
100:1 105:21
113:9 114:22
115:9 119:6
personal 56:2,5
59:7
personnel 50:13
50:24
phone 13:16
82:23 83:2
phones 79:13
photocopy 4:21
104:18 110:3,5
pick 33:21 48:7
48:8 52:14
75:9,11 76:8
86:23
picked 30:23
33:19 69:19
picking 16:8
piece 11:25
16:13,14,19,19
16:20,23,24
17:1 18:5,13
18:18 19:8,10
19:11,14 20:2
21:2,13 24:8
29:9,16 30:9
30:11 31:4
32:20 39:25
43:20,21 44:11
44:19 45:25
52:16 53:16
55:21 56:9
57:25 58:1
66:7 69:1
70:10 77:14
80:24 86:5
95:5 103:24
104:9,20 111:2
113:22 114:18
pieces 20:3 30:8
53:12 58:15,20
68:23
pink 19:13
place 23:8,10,12
23:15 34:1
59:24 76:16
78:18 82:17
placed 81:10
places 37:9
Plaintiff 1:20
Plaintiffs 1:5,11
3:2,7,12
Plaintiffs-Inte...
1:14
plan 17:14,15
46:25
plant 7:25 8:1
21:5 22:17
29:18 40:10,11
41:25 46:15
60:8 63:19,19
64:2 73:19
plants 7:23,23
45:15
play 32:8
please 5:8,21
14:21 36:16
plus 46:15
PO603 13:11
point 16:18 20:4
29:25 49:5
52:17 99:5
policies 73:8
position 6:11,15
7:15 10:5,14
10:15 11:1,10
11:13 66:18
68:8
positions 10:9
10:18 50:12
82:4
positive 113:14
possibilities
100:25
possibility
100:23
possible 55:17
65:6 100:20
103:19 105:5
possibly 16:1,9
23:5 38:12
48:17 53:2
54:5 101:2
110:3 112:8
post 6:12,19,20
7:12 10:21,24
11:15 13:1,8
16:8 24:5,18
31:23 34:13,18
34:19 35:3,7
35:10,19 39:9
40:4,8 49:24
50:14,23 60:17
63:7,10,22
64:4 68:20,23
69:6,11,12
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 42 of 50
DEAN ROBERTS May 14, 2015
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73:3 84:6,7
86:15,20,22
98:20 107:11
postage 15:21
28:21,21 70:10
70:12 105:1
postal 2:2 5:25
6:13 8:21 9:22
10:1 20:11
21:18 24:24
26:13,14 28:2
28:7,11,24
32:25 35:24
36:7,24 37:4
37:18,22 38:6
38:7,23 39:7
41:10 42:24
43:17 44:15
46:11 47:3
48:10 49:11
50:2,12,20,21
50:25 51:14,18
52:11 53:19,25
56:20 57:3,4
57:10,12,21
59:7,12,14,21
59:23 60:23,25
62:2 64:21
65:1,11,16
66:20,24 69:24
70:7,25 71:18
72:16,19 73:1
73:15,20,24
74:3,7,18
75:23 76:15
79:25 83:21
85:9,13 87:16
88:7,19,23
89:8,13 94:24
96:15 98:12,21
99:17 100:16
100:21 102:7
103:16 105:12
105:16 107:20
109:9 113:22
115:5,8,9
postcard 4:21
103:25
posted 30:22
33:18
postmark 86:3,5
86:8,16,17
postmarked
86:7
postmarking
85:9
postmaster 7:14
9:5,6,7,10
10:14,14,18,19
11:1,8 12:12
12:17 68:11
postmasters
12:24,25
potentially
104:19,21
112:10
practice 83:5
preparation
14:16
prepare 88:5
prepared 13:21
71:24
present 83:25
91:4
president 8:12
8:16 91:15,17
presidents 8:23
press 74:17
pretty 26:23
36:8 41:8
76:22
previous 54:19
80:7 95:6
105:19
previously 58:2
93:1 95:5
119:7
price 70:11
print 76:23,24
77:3 80:5
printers 76:24
prior 57:6,12,17
57:20 59:21
77:15 82:8
101:17 113:2
priority 11:24
private 113:6
proactive 83:14
85:3,19
probably 9:20
21:10 27:11
30:20 62:5
81:14 82:21
84:21
problem 6:9
27:20 39:19
66:20 81:21
problems 66:14
105:25
procedures 6:1
15:20
proceedings
4:15 14:6
process 7:24
18:23,25 19:1
19:7 20:13
40:19 43:7,14
45:18 46:2,3
47:10 53:2
54:3 61:10
63:9,16 66:1
79:19 88:19,22
89:20 100:22
101:14 115:14
processed 22:13
41:25 43:12
45:15 47:8,12
47:17,23 61:21
66:6 77:14
87:23 94:24
95:4,6,16,23
processes 8:3
15:20 16:15
18:22 19:2
20:21 42:21
processing 7:23
16:6 21:5
22:17 29:19
30:8 35:1
39:15 42:16
52:5,6,19,20
54:15 60:8,21
61:3,9,13,15
64:6 68:18
69:4,20 73:19
86:18 106:15
106:15
product 29:1
Productions
91:18 96:6,22
102:6,22
Productions'
102:24
products 69:14
Professional 5:3
promoted 11:1
promotion 11:9
promotions 12:1
proof 101:6
proper 23:1 88:7
88:11
properly 40:6
53:5 66:24
85:6
protocols 115:5
provide 109:8
110:20
provided 5:14
13:18
Public 5:3 119:4
119:22
pull 60:6 77:7
pulled 47:2
78:10
punishment
65:9
purpose 44:19
54:12
pursuant 78:7
put 11:3 13:23
25:12 28:20
38:4 41:23
43:17 44:23
55:24 59:13
70:6,9 79:16
79:20,20,21
80:2,6,24
81:12,16 84:3
86:5,22 98:20
105:9,17,21
108:22 116:2
puts 60:5 86:9
86:15,20
putting 21:13
33:17 56:19
59:9 80:10
81:2
Q
quarter 54:19
quarterly 73:4
84:12
quarters 35:22
question 5:22
6:3 21:15
28:12 36:17
38:2 39:1
40:14 47:4
51:21 53:24
65:10,10 80:17
94:18 108:6
questions 24:16
28:20 31:13
49:9 66:25
68:3 70:20,22
83:18 102:13
107:25 108:1
109:12
quoted 71:13
quoting 71:12
R
R 3:1 119:3
raised 70:19
82:15
Raleigh 2:11
3:20 4:4 5:12
7:8,10,11,13
7:25 12:10,12
12:16 13:3
14:7 21:22
29:19 30:6,20
30:20 31:17
32:13 35:8
41:25 63:23
ramifications
73:7
ran 46:15,18
Randall 82:24
82:25
Randall's 83:2
range 23:12
63:23
rate 18:14 28:14
34:6 39:12
103:17 104:2,5
110:10,15,22
112:20
rates 112:6
read 17:23 23:6
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 43 of 50
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40:14,15,23
66:22 67:11,14
67:23 68:1
81:18 90:9,10
90:24 91:9
100:4 103:5
115:12 118:5
reading 68:3
69:5 89:18
reads 19:23
118:5
ready 13:6 40:16
90:13
real 34:8 35:17
64:10 84:8
really 18:13
19:13 23:8
42:20 45:21
46:1,1 47:7
54:12 63:6
66:2 80:11
108:19 113:2
reason 16:4
23:23 25:20
45:7 53:3
55:20,21 65:25
65:25 78:10
88:13 107:13
reasons 23:5
41:19,19 42:11
45:9 60:10
99:15 100:14
100:17
recall 84:23,25
87:4 88:18
109:14
recalled 89:18
receipt 39:7
receive 29:21
48:23 72:8
100:2 101:3
received 48:1
57:5 59:9
62:23 64:17
65:13 75:22
89:10 91:24
99:2 101:18
receiver 66:12
66:15 89:6
receivers 31:1
receiving 41:11
56:9 69:10
71:21,23,25
recess 49:6 91:3
102:16
recipient 16:20
27:25 39:7
48:22 56:24
64:11,16 65:13
98:20 99:16
100:16
recognize 78:20
recollection 84:3
record 5:9 14:1
77:9,10,12,16
84:21 90:24,25
91:1 119:12
recording 63:13
redirect 17:16
20:11,11 44:15
45:17 53:1
55:7,7 60:23
62:10
redirected 17:9
54:22 55:1
62:15,16 89:2
redirecting
55:10
redirection
79:25
reduced 119:11
refer 16:3,4
81:19 95:18
reference 106:9
referencing
113:6
referred 102:22
107:17
referring 71:14
114:11
refers 71:7
105:4
reflection 111:2
regard 102:24
103:2,13
104:22 105:3
106:7 107:17
108:5
regarding 83:18
89:6
regards 17:2
48:4 70:3
112:5
registered 5:3
41:3 99:4
registrants
40:21
registration 78:4
regularly 104:6
regulations 13:8
49:23 50:2
71:2
relate 68:6
related 118:2
119:15
Relations 13:9
relationship
69:24
relying 59:6
remember51:7
83:24 84:16
86:25 100:11
109:12
remote 18:4
19:1
remove 101:15
removed 78:5
89:22 90:2,17
92:20 100:10
101:4,19 103:2
103:3 108:15
116:3
rent 50:21 51:5
renting 75:19
repeat 51:22
rephrase 5:23
110:12
report 7:13 8:11
9:4 12:24,25
31:3 46:18
48:14 54:9
61:17 63:9
64:7 112:12
reported 4:1
61:15 81:21
83:15 88:15
110:10,15,15
reporter 5:3
36:16,21 67:3
77:21 80:20
90:22
reporter's 15:13
REPORTERS
4:2
reporting 61:14
64:6
reports 6:16 9:5
12:12,18 13:1
31:4,25 34:20
46:13,15 58:4
97:8 112:4,16
representative
2:2 83:11
84:12
representing
5:13
represents
101:12
request 13:20
86:6
requested 17:8
44:20 70:17
81:4 92:22
96:1,13
requests 81:7
require 64:7
80:24
required 28:3,5
63:17 70:9
72:11 79:21
requirement
66:11
requirements
69:10
requires 24:5
73:2
RESERVED
116:15
reside 56:16
96:4,7
residence 62:23
76:12 92:1
105:11,19
115:15
resident 57:6,12
57:13,17,20
59:13,21 60:6
residential
49:16
residents 57:16
57:20 63:2
resides 28:16
51:25
residing 26:11
27:8
resolved 52:15
53:7
resources 41:21
108:25
response 112:5
112:20,22
113:14,14
114:13
responsibilities
11:12 12:1
responsibility
42:20
responsible
11:12,16 12:20
31:16,21 32:11
32:23 42:4
49:11,12,17
75:15,23
rest 9:1,21 67:14
result 27:2
return 15:21
17:8 28:5,21
44:20 57:4,17
57:21 59:6
64:21 66:9
70:13,16 81:3
81:7,15 87:23
88:9,19 92:22
96:1,9,13
100:22 110:10
110:11
return-to-sen...
88:3,5
returned 15:21
28:14 31:12,12
42:12,13 45:8
45:20,22 56:25
57:12 59:15
61:1 67:9 78:6
78:7 81:12
82:2 86:10
87:13,17,22
88:1,24 89:9
89:12 90:17
93:11,14 94:3
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 44 of 50
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94:12,15,16,23
96:5 97:8,13
97:17,23 98:2
98:3,11,14,19
98:24 99:10,12
99:16,24 100:1
100:11,15,18
100:20,23
101:1 102:11
103:15,21
105:5,11
107:20 110:11
110:16 111:18
111:18 112:3,3
112:14,25
114:21 115:8
returning 44:21
65:14 66:21
81:22
review 13:20
reviewed 13:7
14:16
reviews 39:23
67:17 68:5
90:12
rid 58:22
Riggs 3:8 91:4
right 5:16 7:9
9:7 14:11
15:15 18:12,24
19:3,4 20:23
21:20 22:10,19
23:2,16 28:10
28:12 32:14
34:14 37:2,11
39:6 40:24
41:1,1 43:24
45:7,13 48:20
51:13,19,20
52:5,6 56:4,21
57:1 59:4
62:19 64:11
66:17,18 68:8
68:9 72:5
73:18 77:8
79:12 80:1,7
80:10 81:18,24
82:15 86:13,21
86:24,25 87:10
88:25 89:4,11
89:14,16 90:1
93:3,6,7,23
94:9 96:8 97:2
97:9 98:6,10
99:1 100:8
102:2,7 110:6
110:13 111:6
111:15 113:1
113:13,16,16
road 2:10 3:19
4:3 52:4
Roberts 1:25 2:3
5:1,10,11 6:10
13:5,19 14:19
14:23 15:8
20:16 24:12,14
36:14 46:5
49:8 64:9 67:5
71:3 77:24
90:6 91:6
116:14 117:5
117:14 118:2
Rocky 42:1
63:24
roll 37:17 100:7
rolls 78:4 89:25
90:2,2 101:5
RONALD 3:3
ronald.anguas...
3:6
room 3:14,24
15:10 82:16
91:4
roughly 54:6
62:7
round 85:6,16
85:24,24 86:2
86:3
route 21:14
29:24 32:2
60:3
RPR 2:14 4:3
119:4,21
rule 15:9
rules 5:20,21
71:2
run 16:11 19:22
21:6 24:8
41:23 44:18
60:21,22 61:11
62:6,10 105:24
running 16:18
16:22 21:7
44:14 64:3
rural 12:7 13:12
42:5,9
RUSS 3:13
102:14
S
S 3:1
S-e-a-v-e-r 8:16
safe 43:9 115:16
Salak 96:12
sale 112:21
sales 86:7
sample 109:15
Saturday 33:25
34:2 48:6
saving 11:20
saw 111:22
saying 31:7 39:8
43:19 44:8
54:13 58:25
62:1 79:14
87:6 98:7 99:6
99:21,25 100:1
101:21
says 23:12 25:5
90:16 91:15,20
91:23 92:19
93:13 95:25
scan 31:2
school 9:16 28:1
70:5 97:12
schools 76:7
scores 34:10
screen 18:6 19:1
53:8
scrutinized 29:2
se 69:16
Seaver 8:15,15
SEAWELL 3:9
second 13:24
18:25 31:14
37:13 46:6
53:23 67:8
77:9 89:17
93:9 111:15
section 35:10
50:17 51:8
67:9 71:5 72:6
72:13
sector 113:6
see 7:21 12:11
15:22 23:7
25:18,22 26:1
27:11 29:15
34:24 39:23
40:13 58:8
78:5 81:20
82:12 83:14
87:11 90:15
91:15,21,23
92:1,3,20
93:11,14 94:12
96:1 97:6
103:23 108:20
109:23 110:4
110:23 111:3
111:19,20
114:9 115:19
115:23
seeing 23:11
seen 15:1 81:25
89:24 91:7
103:15 111:16
111:25
segregated 46:8
48:1
selected 108:14
sell 111:13
sells 69:14
senator's 83:10
84:13
send 17:7 20:12
22:16 40:25
44:9 68:25
89:14
sender 15:22
16:25 17:5,10
20:15 28:15,23
44:22,22 45:12
45:20,22 47:6
47:8,24 48:2
49:1 55:17,18
55:20 56:14,25
59:6,15 60:11
61:1 62:15,17
63:5,7 65:14
70:18 81:1,5,8
81:11,15 82:2
87:24 89:5
96:9,20 98:11
sender's 88:4
sending 20:9
71:25 81:4
sends 91:25
senior 6:12,18
106:2,5,5
sense 79:6,7
90:16
sent 13:22 17:10
26:4 28:17
55:16,17,19
81:1,8,23
96:22 100:10
111:18 112:2
115:7 116:1
separate 20:13
36:1
September 67:7
68:10
sequence 52:17
57:25
sequencing
29:25
serious 73:13
serve 54:12
85:22
serves 84:3,4
service 2:2 5:25
6:13 7:22 8:21
9:23 10:1,4,6
10:11 11:15,22
11:22 16:10
17:8 21:18
24:24 26:14
28:2,7,11,24
28:25 29:7,10
30:4 32:25
33:3,7,12,13
34:22 35:24
36:7,24 37:5
37:22 38:6,7
38:23 39:7,13
39:14,20,24
41:10 42:24
43:18 44:20
46:11 47:4
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-53 Filed 07/08/15 Page 45 of 50
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48:7,10 49:11
50:12,20,21,25
51:14,18 53:20
53:25 57:3,5
57:10,13,21
59:23 60:25
62:2 64:21
65:1,11,16
66:21,24 69:24
70:7,16,25
71:18 72:19,22
73:1,16,24
74:7 81:3,7
83:22 85:9,13
86:8 88:8,19
88:23 89:13
92:22 94:24
96:1,13,15
98:12,21 99:17
100:17,21
102:7 105:12
105:16 107:21
109:9 110:24
113:22 115:5,8
115:9
Service's 26:14
serviced 63:22
services 113:8
sessions 49:25
50:1
set 40:9 73:9
seven 8:20,23
90:22,23
115:20
severe 65:9
shoot 42:7
shop 73:20
75:23 76:15
shops 89:8
show 45:1 84:14
showing 27:15
31:7 46:11
57:19 112:22
shown 79:23
side 7:22 35:16
35:23 42:1
49:24 51:12
52:25 72:22
sides 35:19
sign 24:6 66:12
SIGNATURE
116:15
signed 91:12
119:18
signs 26:1
similar 35:17
64:15 79:22
112:16 114:7
sir 5:8 6:16 8:10
12:21 14:18
15:23 46:9
63:3 64:13
67:22 71:15
73:25 74:22
75:6 87:14
89:21 91:8
93:12 94:2,5
sit 98:8
sitting 18:7
38:12
situations 27:1,2
28:7 64:20
six 2:10 3:19 4:3
6:16
size 35:10
104:21 110:1
skip 9:21
slower 53:13
small 26:23
52:24
smaller 25:9,10
25:13 76:7
smart 57:24
SMOAK 2:9
3:18
SOCIAL 3:8
soldier 35:21
38:4
soldiers 36:3
50:24 51:4
somebody 37:21
55:15 86:9
100:21 113:15
115:6
somebody's
51:23
somewhat 19:17
son 106:2
sorry 11:18 38:2
80:18 86:4
93:25
sort 17:14,15
21:4,18 23:14
38:18 39:16,17
40:2 46:25
52:15 64:22
69:23 114:13
sortation 19:17
29:15,17,24
30:13 53:17
sorted 17:13
21:10,12 22:6
40:6 52:16
58:1,3,17,17
sorter 16:24
sorting 18:15
21:21,25 22:1
22:2,4,9,17
52:22
sources 106:13
south 10:19,25
33:9
southeast 10:22
SOUTHERN
3:8
span 41:9
SPE 92:20
speak 50:3 72:23
76:18
specific 21:24
24:1 25:5
30:21 32:19
34:25 35:1
40:8,11,14
46:24 60:4
65:3 112:10,22
specifically 22:8
spend 11:19
54:10
Springs 40:4
SS 117:1
staffing 12:2
staged 44:13
61:12
stages 64:2
standard 33:4,7
33:12,13
110:24 111:23
standards 29:7
30:4 70:23,25
71:17 72:2,15
73:9 74:1,3
87:15
start 9:23 15:19
21:7 44:14
64:3 66:17
started 10:1
20:16
starting 67:8
90:9
starts 7:3
state 1:3,16,22
3:17,17 5:8
10:2 33:2
40:19 41:4
66:21,23 68:4
68:7,14,16,19
69:1,7,14,18
70:6,8 72:4,21
73:8,18 75:8
75:22 76:3,10
78:2,4,10,11
80:15,23 81:21
81:23 83:11,21
84:10,13,16
87:2,11,25
89:19 90:8
91:24 99:4
100:1,4 101:14
103:6 107:4
108:12,14,24
115:14 116:1
117:1,6 119:1
119:5
States 1:1,19 2:2
3:12 72:1
Statesville 7:5
stating 106:18
station 10:6,9,12
10:13 60:17
stations 75:12
statutes 65:4
stay 16:16 61:24
staying 72:9
stealing 74:11
74:14
step 17:6 19:15
43:14 46:12
47:10 51:15
52:12
steps 16:1 18:12
39:23 42:17,18
52:4
STEWART 2:9
3:18
stick 70:12
sticker 44:23
45:4,6 80:10
sticking 107:9
sticks 34:23 87:7
stipulate 107:5
stop 43:13 46:5
stopped 97:3
stopping 49:4
stream 24:7
31:11 38:18
street 3:4,14,24
23:6,11 36:23
38:4 60:2
strive 110:24
strong 42:20
student 75:16
76:11,25 78:12
78:12,22 79:14
80:22,25 105:9
105:12
students 68:14
70:24 71:19
72:4 74:2
75:24 81:23
studied 24:18
28:13
studies 26:19
27:15 28:11
57:3 65:12
114:11,20
study 24:22
113:2 114:7
stuff 11:4 32:1,3
45:10 47:11
48:19 60:13,22
68:6,24 85:23
114:14
subject 72:24
subpoena 13:15
subsequently
78:8
subunits 34:16
success 18:14
28:13 34:6
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39:12
suite 2:10 3:9,19
4:3 23:4
summarize
58:24
summation
59:11
supervise 6:14
34:4
supervision 12:9
supervisor 10:4
supports 48:18
supposed 18:2
22:18 60:13
63:18 70:1,23
71:17 78:16
sure 5:20 6:4
9:25 11:14
20:17 21:16
22:21 23:19
24:17,21,22
32:3 39:24
41:15 44:1
48:5,5 54:10
55:11 58:25
62:1 66:5
73:11,11,14
74:9 76:4 79:9
82:15 84:2,9
84:21 85:4,14
86:1 93:3,6
99:21 101:4
102:15 104:4
106:23 110:13
114:5 115:2
swearing 24:6
swift 65:9
sworn 5:2 119:7
symbol 95:22
system 16:21
17:17 18:8,17
19:25 20:12
21:2 23:2,9
30:12 32:8
38:9,17 40:6
43:6 44:6,10
44:15 45:24
46:18 52:6
55:5,7,8,25
57:23 58:9
59:2 60:21,23
61:14 62:10,21
64:6 65:20
66:3,4 76:6,16
76:22 79:25
85:17 95:18
106:3,8,10
systems 17:22
17:23 53:13
108:21
T
T 119:3,3
tag 19:14
tagged 64:1
take 6:5,9 14:24
19:19,21 24:4
32:16,24 42:22
47:25 49:5
74:10,15 75:16
82:17 85:1
90:23 102:14
taken 16:8 19:10
90:1
takes 16:12 31:8
31:23 45:19
46:11 47:6,7
48:22,24 59:24
60:16,25 63:4
64:10,12,16
65:24
talk 42:11 77:16
111:15
talked 51:15
60:24 78:9
talking 15:10
16:2 43:23
44:19 52:5
53:11 60:12
62:14,17 65:22
talks 68:2 93:10
teleconference
3:4
tell 5:4 6:10 9:14
9:20,23 13:5
15:24 23:17
24:21 25:7
28:24 31:11,25
32:19 46:18
63:21 74:5,18
77:12,25 79:5
84:18,18 90:16
94:19 95:1,8,9
95:22 103:24
104:17 110:6,7
tells 29:16 31:9
111:1
ten 25:1,3
tend 79:1
terminology
86:4
terms 86:2
test 30:16 66:16
99:13,22
101:12
tester 30:18
testified 5:5
94:23 106:7
testify 15:16
119:8
testimony 89:18
89:23 100:4,12
115:2 119:13
testing 66:10
112:18
Thank 14:2 94:2
107:15 116:13
116:14
they'd 44:23
76:14 78:14
81:15
thickness 110:8
thing 5:21 28:20
34:7 52:7 62:7
65:8 67:7,25
68:22 89:4
99:20 104:20
things 11:24
12:6 17:18,25
39:12 40:10
63:14 110:21
think 27:1,2,6
27:11 36:5,11
40:15 42:7,12
43:9 46:10
55:14 69:17
71:8,14 81:18
88:13 91:6,13
97:3 103:5
104:2 107:3
111:11 113:3
113:16,24,24
thinking 107:13
THOMAS 3:19
thomas.farr@...
3:21
thought 78:1
107:11
thousand 30:7
three 7:23 10:17
11:5 18:21
22:12 26:8
30:19,20 32:5
33:10 34:9,20
threw 58:7
throw 57:1
thrown 22:5
58:11,22
Thursday 2:6
33:25
tied 114:17
till 33:19 53:3
time 6:5 11:3,24
16:9 18:3,15
19:25 20:5
21:6 29:5
30:22 31:11
33:12,16,18,22
33:23 36:8
39:6,17 41:9
42:8,23,24
46:16 53:4,7
53:15 54:7,10
55:12 64:10,14
82:6 91:9
97:25 99:5
timeliness 29:2
46:2
times 23:7,22
34:10 57:22
58:5 72:24
80:6 82:5
88:25 105:24
106:1 111:16
112:4,7 113:18
title 10:13
today 5:15 7:8
13:6 14:17
15:17 29:13,17
33:17,22,24
40:16 41:24
43:5,7 44:17
45:2,16 53:22
58:1,2,17 61:6
61:6,11
Tom 5:12
tomorrow 29:20
33:19 42:3
44:18 45:11
47:12 61:13
tomorrow's
33:18
tonight 47:11,12
top 7:3 9:7 30:15
40:4 63:21
76:9 83:23
111:10
topic 15:20
touch 60:2
touches 21:11
track 45:19 47:4
47:7 48:10,22
48:24 57:10,11
59:23 63:4
88:23
tracked 53:25
60:25
tracking 49:2
tracks 65:17
train 49:24
trained 50:2
training 49:25
50:1,2,6
transcript 4:15
14:6 119:12
TRANSCRIP...
118:1
transcripts
13:17
transportation
68:17 69:3
87:19
tray 29:21,23
39:15 58:14
60:19
trays 29:21
treat 35:16
treated 95:3
tried 28:18
trigger 46:15
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58:3 65:21
105:23 112:8
triggered 84:9
112:21
triggers 24:9
40:2
true 69:8 117:7
119:12
truth 5:4,4,5
84:18 119:8,8
try 5:23 6:3
36:16 41:3
46:21 58:24
84:10,12 85:13
85:19,24
114:12
trying 21:2,3
51:7 64:9,23
85:3 101:9,11
114:5
turn 38:8 93:9
turned 32:25
twelve 93:22
two 7:1 11:7
12:6,23 15:16
17:18 18:21
19:2,20 20:21
24:10 29:8,9
29:11,14,14
30:25 33:3,8,9
33:13 34:8
35:8,14,19
36:1 41:10
49:10,13,14
58:3,18 64:12
94:12,15,16
101:21 104:16
106:1
two-day 42:7
type 18:7 27:1
29:1 59:25
60:19 68:24
72:14 73:5
76:6 91:24
95:2 113:23
typed 18:11 44:4
types 61:16
typewriting
119:11
typewritten
18:11
typical 29:20
41:23
typically 32:24
33:21 34:19
39:19 45:11
46:21 49:15,25
53:22 60:1,19
65:8 72:8
113:7
U
U.S 3:13,23 6:13
65:5 72:25
108:4
Uh-huh 15:5
32:12 34:5
37:1 54:16
67:10 71:10
92:24 94:8
97:18 98:16
112:15
umbrella 113:24
unable 81:5 95:6
96:10,12,19
undeliverable
15:25 55:22
56:15 60:5
70:5 111:3
underlying
102:21,21
understand 5:20
5:22 15:15
17:20 18:20
49:10 58:25
62:1 86:1,10
89:22 101:10
114:5 115:2
Underwood
4:23 91:12
102:20 104:12
105:4 108:7
109:14 110:16
114:8 115:18
Underwood's
104:14 107:18
110:12
undue 65:13
unique 16:13
19:14,22 27:24
30:11 35:9
46:23 49:14
51:8 68:15
69:21 75:14
105:25
unit 35:22 37:11
37:16,25 50:5
50:9 51:5
58:14
United 1:1,19
2:2 3:12 72:1
units 37:20 72:7
universities
35:17 69:25
70:23 71:17
75:4 76:5
79:18 81:14
university 9:18
9:18 38:1
66:23 68:16,19
69:1,3,11 70:6
70:8 72:3,21
73:5,23 74:8
74:11 75:10,17
75:18,18 76:13
76:17,19 78:13
78:14,17,24
79:16 80:2
82:5 89:8
university's
73:20 75:23
76:15
urban 42:5,9
use 40:20 51:5
66:15 71:24
86:4 108:21
109:4 113:7
uses 108:25
USPS 71:13
usually 22:25
27:7 35:25
43:8 61:10
74:15 82:4
V
vacant 25:21
26:1,4,6
vary 39:8
vendor 111:13
vendors 109:8,9
venture 63:23
verification
40:19 66:22
81:22 89:20
101:14 109:15
115:14
verify 41:3
54:19 85:24
89:20 91:25
115:15
verifying 108:8
Verizon 30:7
version 95:10
versus 24:20,23
25:8 36:4
47:18 111:21
vice 8:12,16,23
VIDEOGRAP...
4:2
Virginia 33:9
63:12
volume 54:7,21
59:25 61:4,19
61:20,25 62:15
63:9 64:8 66:6
71:6 111:22
volumes 48:15
voted 116:9
voter 78:4 89:23
90:2,2 109:15
116:5
voters 1:10 3:7
41:3 78:4,5
89:20 90:17
91:25 92:20
100:10 101:15
103:3,4 108:15
115:15
vs 1:6,15,21
118:2
W
Wait 80:17
Wake 32:10,11
32:15,17 117:2
119:2
wall 6:2
want 6:5 41:15
67:15 74:6
80:19 81:19
82:16 89:17
90:23 106:22
113:11,12
115:1
wanted 32:10
39:4 41:1 49:9
77:18 78:5,8
78:21 88:16
Washington 3:5
3:15
wasn't 25:19
56:21 84:7
87:6 111:22
Watauga 75:2
way 7:4 10:24
25:18 26:4
28:20 29:10
32:8 36:1,13
51:18 52:12
55:2 62:13
72:4,11,20
75:7,19 79:12
83:12 88:19,22
110:6,7,13,17
113:19,25
ways 23:21
29:11 44:2
we'll 14:11 32:1
58:13,13,19
78:7 84:14
85:19 89:3,16
107:5,14
we're 6:8 7:8
11:21 12:13
16:2 25:21,23
26:2 27:22,23
30:14 31:10
32:20 36:14
39:23 40:24
41:21 43:23
44:19 48:17,18
52:5 60:12
62:14 66:5,5
74:15 77:19,25
90:20 102:5
112:19
we've 91:6 92:25
104:12,15
week 32:21
93:20 98:9
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weekends 48:8
weeks 94:12,15
94:16
welcome 67:14
went 10:20
54:22 58:6,8
84:9 94:3
97:12
weren't 56:12,22
87:13 97:25
99:12,25
100:20
West 3:9
whatsoever
83:12
Wilmington
11:2
window 61:9
86:6
Winston-Salem
12:20,23 66:21
66:23 68:3,7
68:14,16,19,20
68:23,25 69:7
69:14 70:6,8
72:4,21 73:7
73:18 75:8,21
76:2,10 78:2
78:10,11 80:14
80:23 81:21,23
87:11,25
wish 71:1
witness 59:8
67:17 68:5
90:12 92:16
94:19 107:3,8
107:12,15
118:2 119:10
119:13
Women 1:10 3:7
word 12:4 42:14
words 29:18
46:16 81:6
work 11:21
worked 10:13
39:17 61:5
110:14
workers 74:3
87:16 88:8
working 50:11
68:10
works 60:17
world 110:19
worthwhile
34:11
wouldn't 15:10
26:9 37:24,25
52:7 54:5,11
55:17 56:1,7
62:7 64:24
66:15 78:18,20
78:23 79:1
81:15 88:3,11
88:12,23 96:21
99:15 101:1
write 43:3 77:5
80:12,12
writing 14:23
wrong 12:3 23:6
38:13 65:8
114:22
X
Y
yeah 12:10
13:16,25 19:5
20:25 22:10
31:9 36:5,8,13
40:17,24 42:19
43:22,25 45:21
47:22 49:13
51:22 65:7
74:4,25 78:17
79:10 82:18
93:5,8 96:17
97:1 100:9
111:7 113:10
115:4
year 10:10 11:10
32:22 41:17
55:6,24 82:8
year's 55:12
years 9:25 11:5
11:7 26:24
50:3 58:21
77:1
yellow 45:6
95:13 96:8
yesterday 58:17
Z
zip 21:21,22,24
22:13 27:24
32:2,4 34:25
35:4,5,9,12,14
35:15 36:1,2
36:10,25 37:22
38:5,11,13,17
39:21 40:8
46:24,25 47:23
49:10,13,14,15
49:18 50:13
51:8 68:15,17
69:21 75:14,18
75:25 76:12
0
09 36:11,12
37:22
1
1 4:14 14:12,13
14:15 40:14
66:22 89:18
91:16 92:1
104:12,14,22
104:22 109:11
109:15 110:1
115:12
1,075 94:3 97:3
1,132 99:9
103:15
1:00 2:5
1:13-CV-658 1:6
1:13-CV-660
1:15
1:13-CV-861
1:21
10-15-13 4:20
10,000 46:19
100 3:24
1000 4:3
101 3:9
102 4:10
105 44:2 106:24
107:3,9,11,12
107:13
106 97:8
108 4:9
11 43:8
1100 2:10 3:19
11th 93:19
12 90:10
127 14:8
12th 94:4 97:4
14 2:6 4:14,17
118:3 119:6
140 10:24
1415 3:9
144 90:9
146 90:10,15
14th 97:9
150 63:23
15th 67:25
17th 93:24 94:1
103:14
18 10:12 90:10
93:21
1800 3:14
1993 10:3
1997 10:4
19th 97:13
2
2 4:17 14:21,22
14:24 15:17
68:1 92:10
2,400 92:19
93:14 99:8
103:13
20 54:24 55:2
59:2,5 62:7,21
62:25
20-year-olds
79:11
200 63:23
20005 3:5
20006 3:15
200621500068
119:22
2013 67:7,25
68:10
2014 14:7 66:19
82:20 87:3
91:12 97:9,19
103:14,15
2015 2:6 117:9
118:3 119:6,18
202 3:5,15
233 3:24
259-0645 3:25
26 9:25
26th 66:19
27110 68:15
274 95:17
275 34:21
276 34:21
27609 3:20 4:4
277 32:6 34:21
27707 3:10
282 34:21
28307 36:5,7,25
38:14
28308 51:7
28309 36:5 37:6
37:8 38:5
28801 3:24
29th 93:13 97:6
97:13
2nd 14:7 91:12
97:17 99:9
103:14
3
3 4:18 67:2,4
69:5 81:19
91:13 115:23
30(b)(6) 2:1
323-3380 3:10
325 37:14
353-7738 3:15
36 97:12
3rd 67:7
4
4 4:19 67:19,20
67:24 69:5
71:7 81:19
92:7 109:18
4-2-14 4:16
4,000 6:17
4:13 116:16
400 21:23
4208 2:10 3:19
4:3
475 94:11,15
97:5
5
5 4:9,21 21:11
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77:20,22,24
79:23 92:15
93:1,7,8 94:22
95:10,25 104:7
104:8,14,23
109:11,25
115:1
50 89:2
500 21:23
54 3:9
6
6 4:22 90:4,5
99:9
6-24-14 4:22
60-year-old 79:8
600 93:13 94:14
97:4
649-9998 4:4
655 3:4
67 4:18,19
7
7 4:23 91:2,7
97:3 102:20
103:9 104:13
104:15 115:21
7254-NWB 3:14
77 4:21
787-9700 3:20
7th 95:4,11
8
80 18:15 54:6,7
54:13,18,21
59:1 62:8,9,20
80s 50:6
828 3:25
82nd 37:14
879-5901 3:5
9
9-3-13 4:18
90 4:22
91 4:23
919 3:10,20 4:4
95 21:12
96 33:4,11 34:6
41:9 42:8
64:14
98 41:23 42:2
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SUSAN SCHAFFER May 8, 2015
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1 (Pages 1 to 4)
1
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA
NORTH CAROLINA STATE )
CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, et al., )
)
Plaintiffs, )
v. )Civil Action No. 1:13-CV-658
)
PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his )
official capacity as the Governor)
of North Carolina, et al., )
)
Defendants. )
LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )
NORTH CAROLINA, et al., )
)
Plaintiffs, )
v. )Civil Action No. 1:13-CV-660
)
THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )
et al., )
)
Defendants. )
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )
)
Plaintiff, )
v. )Civil Action No. 1:13-CV-861
)
THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )
et al., )
)
Defendants. )
DEPOSITION OF SUSAN SCHAFFER
__________________________________________________
10:01 A.M.
FRIDAY, MAY 8, 2015
__________________________________________________
204 WATTS STREET
DURHAM, NORTH CAROLINA
By: Tammy Johnson, CVR-CM-M
2
1 A P P E A R A N C E S2
3 For the North Carolina State Conference of the NAACP:4 KIRKLAND & ELLIS, LLP
BY: MADELYN MORRIS5 601 Lexington Avenue
New York, New York 100226 (212)446-4680
ADVANCEMENT PROJECT8 BY: DONITA JUDGE VIA TELEPHONE
1220 L Street NW, Suite 8509 Washington, D.C. 20005
(202)728-955710 [email protected] For the State of North Carolina and SBOE:12 OGLETREE, DEAKINS, NASH, SMOAK & STEWART, P.C.
BY: MICHAEL D. MCKNIGHT13 4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 1100
Raleigh, North Carolina 2760914 (919)787-9700
The Videographer: Brad Smith16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION2
Examinations Page3
By Ms. Morris . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 84
By Mr. McKnight . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 405
By Ms. Morris . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 896
By Mr. McKnight . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 927
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4
1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS2
Exhibit Description Page3
1 2014 Voting & Election Day 174 Irregularities Incident Report Form5 2 Susan Schaffer Facebook Page 806
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
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25
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-54 Filed 07/08/15 Page 1 of 25
SUSAN SCHAFFER May 8, 2015
DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS www.discoverydepo.com 1-919-424-8242
2 (Pages 5 to 8)
5
1 STIPULATIONS
2 It is hereby stipulated and agreed between the
3 parties to this action, through their respective
4 counsel of record:
5 1. That the deposition of Susan Schaffer may be
6 taken on May 8, 2015, at 10:01 a.m. in Durham, NC
7 before Tammy Johnson, CVR-CM-M.
8 2. That the deposition shall be taken and used
9 as permitted by the applicable Federal Rules of Civil
10 Procedure.
11 3. That any objections of any party hereto as
12 to notice of the taking of said deposition or as to
13 the time or place thereof, or as to the competency of
14 the person before whom the same shall be taken, are
15 deemed to have been met.
16 4. That objections to questions and motions to
17 strike answers need not be made during the taking of
18 this deposition, but may be made for the first time
19 during the progress of the trial of this case, or at
20 any pretrial hearing held before any judge of
21 competent jurisdiction for the purpose of ruling
22 thereon, or any other hearing at which said
23 deposition shall be used, except that objections to
24 the form of the question must be made at the time
25 such question is asked or objection as to the form of
6
1 the question is waived.
2 5. That the witness reserves the right to read
3 and sign the transcript prior to it being sealed.
4 6. That the sealed original of the transcript
5 shall be mailed First Class Postage Paid or
6 hand-delivered to the party taking the deposition for
7 preservation and delivery to the Court if and when
8 necessary.
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
7
1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at 10:01
2 a.m. Today's date is May the 8th, 2015, and
3 this is the videotaped deposition of Ms. Susan
4 Schaffer taken in the matter of North Carolina
5 State Conference of the NAACP, et al., versus
6 Patrick Lloyd McCrory, in his official capacity
7 as the Governor of North Carolina, et al.;
8 League of Women Voters of North Carolina, et
9 al., versus the State of North Carolina, et al.;
10 and United States of America versus the state of
11 North Carolina, et al., with case numbers
12 1:13-CV-658, 660 and 861. Would counsel please
13 now introduce themselves and then our court
14 reporter will swear in the witness.
15 THE WITNESS: Could you -- can I take
16 a -- could you stop it for a second?
17 MS. MORRIS: Yeah. Sorry. Can you go
18 off the record for a minute?
19 THE WITNESS: I just want to go get a
20 tissue.
21 MS. MORRIS: Yeah. No problem.
22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the
23 record at 10:02 a.m.
24 (Brief Recess: 10:02 a.m. to 10:04 a.m.)
25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on record at
8
1 10:04 a.m. and now counsel can introduce
2 themselves.
3 MS. MORRIS: Madelyn Morris, Kirkland
4 & Ellis, appearing on behalf of the North
5 Carolina State Conference of the NAACP,
6 plaintiffs.
7 MR. MCKNIGHT: And my name is Michael
8 McKnight. I -- and -- and I'm an attorney
9 representing the State Board of Elections, the
10 defendants in this matter, or these matters,
11 rather.
12 MS. MORRIS: On the line?
13 MS. JUDGE: Donita Judge. Donita
14 Judge, Advance- -- Advancement Project,
15 representing the North Carolina NAACP,
16 plaintiffs.
17 MS. MORRIS: Great.
18 EXAMINATION
19 BY MS. MORRIS:
20 Q. Ms. Schaffer, can you please state your name for
21 the record?
22 A. Susan Schaffer.
23 Q. And have you ever been deposed before?
24 A. Not that I recall.
25 Q. So, I'm going you give you a bit of background
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1 on how this will go. I'm going to be asking you
2 questions, and I ask that you answer to the best
3 of your ability and only answer things that you
4 know and not to speculate or guess on things.
5 You're here to give testimony to the things that
6 you know. If you don't hear or understand any
7 of my questions, let me know and I'll be happy
8 to rephrase. If you do answer the question, can
9 I assume that you've heard and understood the
10 question?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, there may be times where instead of
13 answering out loud, you're inclined to nod or
14 gesture. Just in order to make sure the record
15 is clear, please make sure to keep your answers
16 verbal, and I'll make sure to remind you if --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- you ever need to talk to me. At some point,
19 if you give an answer that you feel is
20 inaccurate or incomplete, also please let me
21 know and I will give you a chance to make sure
22 that you have the answer on the record and the
23 words that you want and that it's complete.
24 A. I will.
25 Q. And also let me know if you need a break at any
10
1 time. You've done a good job of that already,
2 but -- and I think if I ask and Mr. McKnight
3 will -- may ask that if there is a question
4 outstanding on the record, that you answer it
5 and then we can break.
6 A. I understand.
7 Q. I'd like to talk a little bit about your
8 background, so can you walk me through your
9 educational background?
10 A. I went to public school in Burlington, New
11 Jersey. I attended and got a bachelor's degree
12 at Dickinson College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania,
13 and I got a law degree from Rutgers Law School
14 in Camden, New Jersey.
15 Q. What did you major in in undergrad?
16 A. Philosophy.
17 Q. And is your law degree the highest degree that
18 you've gotten?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. And what's your profession?
21 A. I am a retired attorney.
22 Q. What sort of law did you practice when you were
23 a practicing attorney?
24 A. For the last 25 years of my career, I was
25 in-house counsel at -- the final name for the
11
1 company was AstraZeneca Pharmaceuticals.
2 Q. And do you have any experience or expertise in
3 the area of election law?
4 A. No, I do not.
5 Q. Where were you born?
6 A. I was born in Trenton, New Jersey.
7 Q. And when did you move to North Carolina?
8 A. We moved to North Carolina in January or
9 February of 2011. We purchased our house a few
10 months earlier, but were not able to sell our
11 house in Pennsylvania until January or February
12 2011.
13 Q. And what brought you to North Carolina?
14 A. Our oldest child went to Duke University. Our
15 youngest child went to UNC Chapel Hill, and they
16 both stayed here and the oldest had three
17 children, so when we retired, we decided to move
18 to be closer to family.
19 Q. Now, if you recall, how long after moving to
20 North Carolina did you register to vote?
21 A. I think we registered within the first year, but
22 I don't remember exactly when.
23 Q. Do you remember how you registered?
24 A. I believe we registered by mail, but I'm not
25 positive.
12
1 Q. And if you remember, what's the first election
2 that you voted in when you were in North
3 Carolina?
4 A. I believe the first election was the general
5 election in 2011.
6 Q. Do you happen to remember how you voted in that
7 election or any of the other elections in North
8 Carolina?
9 A. Yes. We voted at the polls du- -- during early
10 voting.
11 Q. Why do you remember that you voted in early
12 voting in 2011?
13 A. Because we were very pleased that there was the
14 option of early voting. We had not experienced
15 that before, and we found it to be a very easy
16 way to vote. There was on- -- there's only been
17 one time in which we voted other than by early
18 voting.
19 Q. So in every election that you voted in since
20 2011, you voted early voting?
21 A. Except for the primary in 2014.
22 Q. And why -- how did you vote in the 2014 primary
23 election?
24 A. We voted by absentee ballot.
25 Q. Why did you vote by absentee in 2014?
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1 A. We had been told that you didn't -- I had
2 learned that you didn't need any qual- -- any --
3 you didn't need to qualify in terms of being out
4 of the state to vote by absentee ballot, and I
5 had been told that it was a fairly simple way to
6 vote and I thought that it might be a way to
7 increase voter turnout, so I decided to
8 experiment myself and vote by absentee ballot
9 and see how -- how that experience was.
10 Q. And what was your impression of early -- or
11 sorry -- of the -- the absentee process when you
12 voted in 2014?
13 A. I thought it was somewhat complicated and
14 somewhat intimidating.
15 Q. Why do you think it was complicated or
16 intimidating?
17 A. Well, it required, if I was interpreting --
18 there -- there were a lot of instructions, first
19 of all. There were many instructions.
20 Secondly, one of the instructions required you
21 to obtain two witnesses but not only to obtain
22 two witnesses, but if I understood it correctly,
23 you had to fill out your ballot in front of the
24 witnesses, which, number one, since the ballot
25 was very long, was a tremendous imposition on
14
1 the witness and -- witnesses -- and, secondly,
2 it kind of potentially violated the sort of
3 confidentiality that you assume as inherent in
4 voting.
5 Q. Was there any other thing besides needing to
6 have two witnesses that you felt made it
7 complicated or intimidating?
8 A. I just remember that there were a lot of
9 instructions and I was nervous as to what would
10 happen if I failed to follow one of the
11 instructions, but I don't remember what they --
12 what any of the others were other than the
13 two-witness requirement.
14 Q. You ultimately mailed in your 2014 absentee
15 ballot?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. So have you ever worked as a poll monitor or
18 poll watcher before?
19 A. I -- the only time I worked as a poll monitor or
20 poll watcher was in the general election in
21 2014.
22 Q. Why did you become a poll monitor?
23 A. I had become involved in voter registration
24 through a nonpartisan organization in Durham
25 known as You Can Vote, and I became more
15
1 interested in the election process in North
2 Carolina and I decided that I wanted to have a
3 role on election day, so I consulted one of the
4 people in You Can Vote, and she suggested that I
5 volunteer to participate through another
6 nonpartisan organization, which is Democracy
7 North Carolina. So I contacted them and
8 received training and volunteered as -- I'm not
9 sure if it was a poll monitor, poll watcher.
10 I'm not sure what the technical term was.
11 Q. What term is most comfortable for you? And I'll
12 use that one.
13 A. I guess poll watcher.
14 Q. Okay. And what are the responsibilities or
15 duties of a poll watcher?
16 A. I can't answer what generally the
17 responsibilities of a poll watcher are. I can
18 only answer -- and since I only did it once, I
19 can only answer what responsibilities I was
20 given. And generally it was to observe from a
21 dis- -- somewhat of a distance, but also we were
22 given a survey which had been prepared -- my
23 recollection is by a -- an academic in political
24 science, I believe -- that was intended to
25 capture the experience of the voter, and we were
16
1 asked to interview voters after they had voted
2 and record their responses to the specific
3 questions, which as I recall, there were,
4 perhaps, six or eight questions.
5 Q. Do you remember what were those questions?
6 A. They were pretty general and it was kind -- I --
7 I -- I remember the first one was very
8 open-ended, just asking, "How was your voting
9 experience?" And then there were -- there were
10 other questions that asked if certain things
11 would make you more or less likely to
12 participate in the election, but I don't
13 remember what those things were.
14 Q. And why was Democracy North Carolina interested
15 in these surveys, if you remember or know?
16 A. Well, the new election law had been passed and
17 some, but not all, of the provisions in the new
18 election law weren't -- were in effect in the
19 2014 election, so they wanted to try and measure
20 what the impact of those provisions were.
21 Q. What happened to the results of that survey or
22 any surveys that you took during the election?
23 A. Well, I didn't take too many surveys. I after a
24 while switched to doing something else, but the
25 surveys that I did take, I turned in to
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1 Democracy North Carolina, and I have no idea
2 what happened to them after that.
3 Q. So you said that you didn't do -- take many of
4 the surveys. Why didn't you take that many
5 surveys?
6 A. Well, after I was there approximately an hour --
7 I arrived at 6:30 and I think it was
8 approximately an hour after I arrived I began
9 approaching voters who -- and asking them, as I
10 had in the earlier time, how their voting
11 experience was, and many voters answered, "I
12 wasn't allowed to vote; they wouldn't let me
13 vote," or something to that effect. And so I
14 would take the information in the context of the
15 survey, but there were so many people who were
16 giving that response or walking out with these
17 mystified or angry expressions on their face,
18 that I decided it took too long to take the
19 survey and I should just capture as many names
20 as possible of the people who were turned away
21 from the polls.
22 Q. Okay. So at this point I'd like to give you
23 what I'm going to mark as Schaffer Exhibit 1.
24 (WHEREUPON, Exhibit 1 was marked for
25 identification.)
18
1 MS. MORRIS: And I'll read the Bates
2 number too into the record. It's NCSC 00006425
3 is where it begins, and the end Bates stamp for
4 the record is NCSC 00006429.
5 Q. Ms. Schaffer, do you recognize this document?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What is this document?
8 A. This is the incident report that I turned in
9 about an hour after I completed my shift on
10 election day.
11 Q. Where did you get this form from?
12 A. I received it as part of a package that I
13 received from Democracy North Carolina a day or
14 two prior to election day on -- in November
15 2014.
16 Q. Have you seen a form like this before in
17 training or before you worked the polls?
18 A. I don't believe so because I signed up rather
19 late and, therefore, I did my training as part
20 of an on-line audiotape, so I think they spoke
21 about the incident report and the survey, but I
22 don't think I had seen them.
23 Q. So how did you know that there were incident
24 reports or a document like this that you could
25 fill out?
19
1 A. Well, when I picked up my -- I'm sorry, to go
2 back to your question, did you ask me if I had
3 seen it before election day or --
4 Q. I was just asking --
5 A. -- before --
6 Q. -- how did you know that a form like this
7 existed --
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. -- that you could fill out?
10 A. I believe, but I'm fairly certain that I picked
11 up my package about a day before the election,
12 so when I received it, I went through it to see
13 what was there, and it was fairly
14 self-explanatory what the purpose of this form
15 was. In addition, the survey form that I
16 referred to was also in that package, and there
17 might have been other things as well, but I
18 don't remember what they were.
19 Q. So in addition to taking the survey that you had
20 been given, was that part of your responsibility
21 to fill out incident reports if there were any,
22 I guess, irregularities?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. How were you assigned to the polling place?
25 A. They asked us some questions about our
20
1 preferences and they asked if I would be willing
2 to go outside of Durham, and because I'm
3 relatively new to North Carolina, I told them
4 that I preferred to be in Durham, and then I was
5 just randomly assigned to Precinct 54, which was
6 the Durham County Library South Regional Branch.
7 Q. Is this your precinct?
8 A. No, it is not.
9 Q. If possible, could we turn to addendum A of this
10 document, and can you tell me who are the people
11 on the list over these three pages beginning on
12 the addendum A?
13 A. Well, I had a partner who was assigned to the
14 shift that I was assigned to when the shift was
15 supposed to be from 6:30 to 10:30, a four-hour
16 shift, and so this list is the list of people to
17 -- with whom my partner and I spoke who reported
18 that they had been turned away from Precinct 54
19 after waiting a considerable period of time in
20 line trying to vote.
21 Q. Why were the people on this list unable to vote,
22 if you remember?
23 A. I believe every one of them were told that this
24 was not their assigned precinct and that they
25 had to report in -- to a different precinct, and
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1 to the credit of the Election -- of the Board of
2 Election workers, most of these people were told
3 which precinct to report to.
4 Q. Were -- was anyone on this list told that they
5 couldn't vote at the precinct for any other
6 reason?
7 A. Not that I recall.
8 Q. And is this list a comprehensive list of
9 everyone you spoke to on election day who was
10 unable to vote because they were not in the
11 correct precinct?
12 A. No, it is not.
13 Q. Why isn't it a complete list?
14 A. Well, because there were a few people -- there
15 were people here and there who said they weren't
16 allowed to vote but didn't have time to speak
17 with us so we didn't capture their information.
18 There were also people who just didn't like the
19 idea of giving their name and telephone number,
20 although they had revealed to us that they
21 weren't allowed to vote.
22 Q. Do you have any estimate of how many people you
23 spoke with that, as you put it, aren't --
24 weren't allowed to vote that are not on this
25 list?
22
1 A. No, I really can't estimate the number, but it
2 was more than a few.
3 Q. Okay. I -- when you say they weren't allowed to
4 vote, what do you mean by that?
5 A. I mean they stood in line, in most cases, I
6 believe, about 45 minutes with the exception of
7 the curbside voting, in which case it was much
8 longer. They stood in line and -- and then when
9 they got into the Board of Election room or the
10 room where the voting machines were and their
11 names were looked up, they were told they were
12 in the wrong precinct and turned away.
13 Q. How do you know that they were turned away or
14 that they were told they were in the wrong
15 precinct?
16 A. Because that's what was reported to me by the
17 people that I spoke to.
18 Q. Did anyone report being given a provisional
19 ballot?
20 A. No, no one reported being given a provisional
21 ballot.
22 Q. What else was anyone else on this list told
23 about where they could vote?
24 A. Well, they -- they were told, as I said, which
25 precinct they were assigned to, but many of
23
1 them, when they came out, weren't sure that that
2 was the right one because they had just gone
3 through standing in line and not being able to
4 vote. And many of them, but -- they were so
5 surprised by the -- by not being able to vote
6 when they had voted in the same precinct many
7 years before, that they didn't even remember
8 what had been told to them about what precinct
9 to vote in. I'm sorry. I don't remember what
10 the question was.
11 Q. It's okay. We'll start do you know why these
12 people were not at the correct precinct?
13 A. Most of these people said they had voted in this
14 precinct many or at least several years prior to
15 2014, so it never even occurred to them that it
16 might be the wrong precinct. My understanding
17 is that out-of-precinct voting was allowed by
18 the law prior to the 2014 election, so whether
19 they were voting out of precinct or whether
20 their precinct -- or whether they had been
21 reassigned, I don't know.
22 Q. Did you ask any of the voters that question?
23 A. Yes, I did. Most of them seemed to think it was
24 their correct precinct, but there was a lot of
25 confusion.
24
1 Q. How do you know that no one was given a
2 provisional ballot that was on this list, at
3 least?
4 A. In -- in the weeks prior to the general -- the
5 -- the voting day I volunteered, also with
6 Democracy North Carolina, for a voting hotline,
7 and the subject of provisional ballots came up,
8 and my understanding is that they would not just
9 offer you a provisional ballot, that it was
10 something that you had to request, but I'm --
11 I'm not positive of that. It's just the
12 impression that I had.
13 Q. And what about from the voters themselves on
14 this list? Did anyone tell you about being
15 offered a provisional ballot --
16 A. No --
17 Q. -- or not being offered a provi- -- anything
18 about provisional ballots at all? Did anyone on
19 this list talk about --
20 A. No, to the contrary. They all said they weren't
21 permitted to vote, and I think if they had been
22 offered an alternative like, well, you can't
23 vote on the regular ballot but you had vote --
24 you can vote on the provisional ballot, that's
25 what they would have done. That was clearly the
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1 -- because many of them now were uncertain
2 whether they had the time to go to another
3 precinct and potentially wait in another long
4 line. So they clearly -- their attitude
5 reflected was that they would have welcomed an
6 alternative and were not offered it. But in --
7 but specifically the subject of provisional
8 ballot just didn't come up.
9 Q. So, in sum, you were just told by voters, "I
10 wasn't allowed to vote" or "I was turned away"?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Without any specific reference to provisional
13 ballots?
14 A. That's correct. No one mentioned provisional
15 ballots.
16 Q. Do you know who, if anyone, on this list was
17 able to get to their correct polling site?
18 A. No, but I know -- no, I -- I -- I don't know.
19 Q. Do you know if there's anyone that's on this
20 list that was unable to vote at all in the 2014
21 election?
22 A. I don't know, but many people did express not
23 having the time to wait in line at another
24 precinct.
25 Q. At any point -- well, let me go to the first
26
1 page of your report. You write on the first
2 page, "All ethnicities, but majority
3 African-American." What do you mean by that
4 phrase?
5 A. Well, the question -- this -- this report form
6 is designed to report one incident per person,
7 and I didn't have the time to fill out a
8 separate incident report for every person. I
9 didn't even have time to capture all the
10 incidents. Just filling out the name and
11 telephone number took more time than I needed
12 because there were so many people. So I tried
13 -- so since ethnicity was one of the pieces of
14 data that was requested on the form, I attempted
15 to summarize the ethnicity of the group of
16 people on the addenda by describing it. And so
17 what I meant was that all ethnicities were
18 represented in the people who were not permitted
19 to vote at this precinct, but the clear majority
20 was African-American.
21 Q. Did you keep a record of the race or ethnicity
22 of any of the individual voters on this list?
23 A. No, I did not.
24 Q. So how do you know that the majority were
25 African-American?
27
1 A. Because -- because I -- I -- I wrote this report
2 immediately after I came home from my shift, and
3 that was my clear impression, and if it had been
4 close to 50/50, I would not have said a majority
5 because -- but it was a -- it was a clear
6 majority, and so I thought that that should be
7 captured. But there were also Hispanic and
8 Caucasian people who were denied the right to
9 vote, or were sent -- wrote -- vote in that
10 precinct, but the clear majority were
11 African-American.
12 Q. You also wrote on the first page of this report,
13 "Voters on the addendum represent only a
14 fraction of the voters that were turned away
15 after waiting 20 to 60 minutes because they
16 were" -- going on to the next page -- "at the
17 wrong precinct and were no longer allowed to
18 vote out of precinct due to new law. Many
19 voters said they had been voting at this
20 precinct for years." I'll stop reading there.
21 What -- how do you know how long people had
22 waited?
23 A. Because I observed the length of the line when I
24 arrived and -- at 6:30 -- I -- but I'm not
25 positive when the polls opened, but they might
28
1 have opened -- I'm not sure whether they were
2 already open or whether they opened at 7:00.
3 But early on, since there were many people
4 voting before work, there was a long line and I
5 would ask people when they came out how long
6 they had waited, and 45 minutes was the --
7 generally the average amount of time.
8 Later in the middle of the morning for a
9 time the lines may have gotten slightly shorter
10 and so there -- there was a time when maybe it
11 was 20 minutes, but then it -- the lines got
12 longer again for some reason, so my estimate was
13 that it was 45 minutes.
14 At the curb there was a time I could
15 observe the wait because I was standing at the
16 curb where the curbside vote -- voting took
17 place or very close to the curb, and you could
18 see the vehicles that were there. And, for
19 instance, one vehicle was from one of the
20 retirement communities. It had a name on it, so
21 it was very recognizable, and I happened to
22 notice when that vehicle arrived and I also
23 noticed an hour and a half later that they were
24 just getting to the front of the line.
25 So in the case of the curbside voting, I
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29
1 could observe it. And in the case of the
2 regular voting, I could observe the length of
3 the line and I also had some information from
4 the people who attempted to vote and were not
5 able to.
6 Q. Did you take any surveys of the curbside voters?
7 A. No, I don't -- don't believe so. I'm not sure
8 whether my partner did or not, but I don't
9 believe so.
10 Q. Who prepared this form that we're looking at?
11 A. I prepared the first two pages marked by the
12 court reporter as 6425 and 6426. The next three
13 pages, Addendum A, B and C, marked 6427, 6428
14 and 6429, was prepared mostly by me, but there
15 were al- -- there is also some entries that were
16 done by my partner in the shift, and then I
17 stayed longer.
18 I was -- my shift was supposed to end at
19 10:30. At that time two other people came on
20 for the new shift. It was clear that two people
21 were not enough to capture all this data, and so
22 I stayed until 12:30. So some of these may have
23 been entries by one or the other of the people
24 on the second shift. But by far, these are
25 mostly entries by me.
30
1 Q. And how did you collect these names and numbers?
2 A. Oh, I -- oh, I have one -- I'd like to make an
3 addition to my last answer. Act- -- the -- some
4 of these entries were made by the voters
5 themselves. In some cases, I may have asked
6 them or they may have preferred, particularly if
7 they had complicated names to spell. In some of
8 these cases they preferred to do the entry them
9 self.
10 Q. So just to summarize, everyone on this list was
11 put -- was written down by you, your partner on
12 the shift, or the voter them self?
13 A. Or one of the people on the later shift.
14 Q. Were you present for the voters who were written
15 down during the later shift?
16 A. Yes, to the extent that they collected mornings
17 after I left, and I'm not sure if they continued
18 doing this, but to the extent that they
19 collected more names, they would have turned
20 them in them self.
21 Q. What happened with this form, if you know?
22 A. The afternoon of election day, I believe, I
23 drove it over to Democracy North Carolina, whose
24 offices are approximately a mile from my house,
25 and turned it in.
31
1 Q. Were any other voting irregularity forms filled
2 out?
3 A. I have no idea.
4 Q. And do you know what was done with this
5 particular form after you turned it into
6 Democracy North Carolina?
7 A. I -- I have no idea.
8 Q. Do you know if there were -- sure. Go ahead.
9 A. I do have something else to add, if I may.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. And I'm not sure which question it's responsive
12 to, but when I was having the problem with --
13 and was seeking some advice as to whether to
14 continue with the survey or whether to fill out
15 this incident report, I called Democracy North
16 Carolina to get some instructions, and I was
17 told that that particular precinct was also an
18 early voting precinct. So they suggested that
19 some of the confusion may have been caused by
20 the fact that people had previously voted in
21 that precinct during early voting, which is why
22 it was their impression that they could vote
23 there, and then this particular year were voting
24 on election day, and since they couldn't vote
25 out of precinct, were not allowed to vote. That
32
1 was the suggestion given to me by the -- one of
2 the people at Democracy North Carolina.
3 Q. Did any of the voters specifically tell you that
4 that's why they thought it was their precinct?
5 A. No, they didn't. And, in fact, when I tried to
6 ask them, "Well, in prior elections did you vote
7 during early voting" -- I didn't ask that
8 question and -- to every single person, but my
9 recollection is the people I asked that question
10 to mostly said, "No, I voted on election day."
11 Q. Okay. So you don't know --
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. -- exactly why people had come to this precinct?
14 A. That's right. That's right.
15 Q. Did you talk to any poll watchers at any other
16 polling sites?
17 A. No, I did not.
18 Q. So apart from the lines that you described at
19 the regular voting and at curbside and the
20 individuals who you spoke with that could not
21 vote in that precinct, did you observe any other
22 problems that voters faced on the 2014 election
23 day?
24 A. Well, this is somewhat related to the lines, but
25 it's sort of a further elaboration on that. It
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1 seemed like there were not enough poll workers,
2 and in particular, for curbside voting. There
3 was one guy who had to run back and forth to get
4 this particular ballots for each individual
5 voter because I think there's an assigned ballot
6 for each voter. So he couldn't just, you know,
7 hand out the -- he had to go in and register
8 each of the voters and then come out, and -- and
9 then I think he also may have had duties inside.
10 So sometimes there was no one to greet or
11 service the people at curbside voting, and once
12 or twice I had to go in and let him know that
13 there was someone waiting out at curbside voting
14 when he didn't come out within a reasonable
15 period of time, and they very much appreciated
16 the fact that we were helping in that regard.
17 Q. So besides the -- not enough personnel that you
18 just described, lines at both the curbside and
19 regular voting, and the individuals that you
20 spoke with that were turned away, were there any
21 other problems that you observed on the 2014
22 election?
23 A. I can't recall any other problems.
24 Q. Apart from anyone you spoke with that's captured
25 in this report, do you know of anyone who was
34
1 not able to vote at all in the 2014 election?
2 A. Not that I know of.
3 Q. And apart from the people listed in this
4 particular report, do you know of anyone who was
5 not able to get to their correct polling place
6 on the 2014 election?
7 A. Not that I recall.
8 Q. I'd like to turn now to anything you observed
9 about the soft rollout of voter i.d. If I use
10 the term "soft rollout of voter i.d.," do you
11 know what I mean?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. And what do I mean when I say the soft rollout
14 of voter i.d.?
15 A. Well, I don't know whether it was a requirement
16 of the law or whether it was a State Board of
17 Election practice that they instituted, but my
18 understanding is that the Board of Election and
19 the poll workers would ask each voter whether
20 they had a state-approved voter i.d. that would
21 be required for the 2016 election, general
22 election. But from another experience that I
23 had, I don't believe that this was successfully
24 communicated.
25 Q. Well, I'll go back to that, but I first want to
35
1 ask you did you observe anything relating to the
2 soft rollout of voter i.d. at your particular
3 precinct?
4 A. No, I did not. I only obser- -- oh, at my
5 precinct, meaning --
6 Q. Yeah.
7 A. -- the one that I voted at?
8 Q. No. I'm -- let's start with -- well, we'll --
9 I'll ask you about that as well, but first at --
10 on the day that you were a poll watcher, did you
11 observe anything at all relating to the soft
12 rollout of voter i.d.?
13 A. No, because for the most part, I was not in the
14 room where the poll workers were, so I was not
15 in a position to observe that.
16 Q. Okay. So you don't know one way or the other
17 whether information was collected at your
18 particular precinct?
19 A. No, I don't know directly.
20 Q. I guess in your particular precinct that you
21 were actually assigned to and voted in, do you
22 know anything about the soft rollout of voter
23 i.d.?
24 A. Well, it --
25 MR. MCKNIGHT: Object. Just objection
36
1 to that -- that question because I believe she
2 testified she voted early, and so --
3 MS. MORRIS: That's fine.
4 A. At -- at -- yes, at early voting pla- -- polling
5 place where I went, which was the Board of
6 Elections in Durham, I did observe the poll
7 workers asking that question, but I can't
8 remember exactly what they said and I was aware
9 of what the purpose of the question was. I
10 didn't notice any irregularity in that soft
11 rollout --
12 Q. Were you asked --
13 A. -- at that time.
14 Q. -- if you had a proper i.d. for the 2016
15 election?
16 A. I believe I was.
17 Q. Do you know anything else about the soft rollout
18 of voter i.d. that you observed in your capacity
19 as a poll watcher and any other function?
20 A. No, not -- oh, oh, in any other function? Yes,
21 but not as a poll watcher.
22 Q. And what is the other function that you observed
23 anything about the soft rollout of voter i.d.
24 in?
25 A. Well, Democracy North Carolina was a few months
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1 ago calling the list generated by the Board of
2 Elections as a result of the soft rollout, which
3 was supposed to be a list of people who
4 self-identified as not having state-approved
5 voter i.d.'s And so Democracy North Carolina
6 had a phone bank for a few days to call people
7 on that list to try to give them advice about
8 what documents to pull together to obtain a
9 state-issued voter i.d. and possibly to find out
10 if they needed help with transportation or
11 anything else in order to get a state-issued
12 voter i.d.
13 Q. And when did you work that phone bank?
14 A. I think it was either February or March.
15 Q. How long did you work that phone bank for?
16 A. I worked it for a few hours one afternoon, and
17 then I hosted a phone bank at my home for a few
18 hours the next evening for that purpose.
19 Q. And what, if anything, do you remember about the
20 work you did as a part of that phone bank?
21 A. Well, what I remember is almost no one on that
22 list was a person who should have been on that
23 list. In other words, almost everyone on that
24 list had a driver's license or some other form
25 of state-issued i.d. such as an expired driver's
38
1 license held by someone who was elderly, which
2 is an approved state-issued i.d., and they
3 expressed confusion as to why they were on the
4 list.
5 There may have been a handful of people --
6 I only recall maybe three or four people of the
7 hundreds of people that I called that should
8 have been on the list that -- or as far as the
9 list was intended to be people who did not have
10 state-issued i.d.'s at the time of the 2014
11 election.
12 So we could only speculate as to why the
13 list was so inaccurate. The only thing we could
14 come up with was that either the poll workers
15 were not trained properly how to ask the
16 question or they didn't understand themselves
17 how to ask the question or they just weren't
18 clear as to what they were asking. Some people
19 said what they thought they were being asked was
20 whether they had their state-issued i.d. in
21 their possession, and because their driver's
22 license was in their car, they answered no and
23 then ended up on this list.
24 Q. How many people do you estimate that you spoke
25 to during your phone bank duties with Democracy
39
1 North Carolina?
2 A. Well, I probably spoke to a few hundred. I
3 don't know, 200 maybe. Oh, spoke to. Because a
4 lot of people you don't reach. So as far as --
5 I called a few hundred. As far as how may I
6 spoke to, maybe under a hundred, but I don't
7 know how many. And then there were many --
8 there were several other people here, and
9 everyone seemed to be having the same
10 experience, which was the people that they
11 reached were not people that should have been on
12 this list as far as how the list was defined.
13 Q. Okay. It -- I'd like to turn to your
14 involvement in this case. How did you learn
15 about this particular case?
16 A. I believe I learned about this particular case
17 when I was called initially by a law student or
18 a lawyer who was working for the Advancement
19 Project.
20 Q. Do you know how they had gotten your name?
21 A. Yes. I believe that my report was referred to
22 them by Democracy North Carolina. One of the
23 employees of Democracy North Carolina told me
24 that she had referred my report to them.
25 Q. And why did you agree to testify in this case?
40
1 A. I think the objective of measuring the impact of
2 these voting law changes is an important one. I
3 believe that free and fair elections with
4 maximum access to the polls by eligible voters
5 is a very good goal, and I think anything that
6 suppresses the vote should be examined very
7 closely.
8 MS. MORRIS: I think that's all I have
9 for now. If you want to go off the record for a
10 break before you begin your questioning, or
11 would -- do you like to just keep going?
12 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't mind a break.
13 MS. MORRIS: I'm sorry.
14 MR. MCKNIGHT: A break is fine with
15 me.
16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off record at
17 10:51 a.m.
18 (Brief Recess: 10:51 a.m. to 10:58 a.m.)
19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on record at
20 10:58 a.m.
21 EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. MCKNIGHT:
23 Q. Ms. Schaffer, before we took a break, Ms. Morris
24 was asking you some questions about your
25 experience as a poll watcher and experience in
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41
1 general as a voter, and so I want to continue
2 along those -- those questions and ask you
3 follow-ups on those. I think you testified that
4 before you moved here to North Carolina to be
5 with your kids, that you lived in Pennsylvania;
6 is that right?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And you said that one thing that you liked about
9 North Carolina is that -- is that North Carolina
10 had early voting; is that right?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. Now, in Pennsylvania, when you lived there, did
13 they have early voting?
14 A. No, they did not.
15 Q. And were you ever involved in any kind of
16 political activities or activities as a -- as a
17 poll watcher or poll observer when you lived in
18 Pennsylvania?
19 A. No, I was not.
20 Q. Well, did you ever talk with other people who
21 voted in Pennsylvania about the voting process
22 or anything like that?
23 A. Not that I recall.
24 Q. Okay. Well, do you remember people having
25 difficulty voting in Pennsylvania without early
42
1 voting?
2 A. Well, there were lines, but I don't know how --
3 but you expected the lines because you would
4 only -- there was only one day to vote, so
5 expectations played into whether people would
6 consider it difficulty or not. I don't recall
7 anybody talking about difficulty.
8 Q. Okay. And you also mentioned the fact that you
9 liked that North Carolina had what we call
10 no-excuse absentee balloting, and you -- you did
11 not have to give an excuse in order to vote an
12 absentee by mail; is that right?
13 A. I don't know that I said I liked it, but I
14 learned about it and I decided to try to see if
15 it was a viable option for the average voter, so
16 we did our own -- my husband and I did our own
17 little experiment.
18 Q. Now, in Pennsylvania, in order to vote an
19 absentee ballot by mail, do you know if you had
20 to have an excuse or not?
21 A. I don't know because I never -- I don't recall
22 ever voting by absentee ballot in Pennsylvania,
23 so I don't know what the requirements were.
24 Q. And you said here in North Carolina when -- when
25 you -- at the time you voted an absentee ballot
43
1 by mail you thought you had to have -- had to
2 have two witnesses; is that right?
3 A. That's the way I interpreted the instruction.
4 Or the alternative was a Notary Public.
5 Q. And were you able to obtain two witnesses or a
6 Notary Public to witness your ballot?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And -- and when you voted, did you have any
11 concerns about the person who or persons who
12 witnessed your ballot seeing your vote?
13 A. I didn't have concerns, but it -- I mean, I
14 don't know if I would call it concerns. It just
15 was awkward. I mean, it wasn't awk- -- my
16 husband was one of my witnesses, so, obviously,
17 I didn't care about him seeing. My neighbor, it
18 wasn't that I cared about it; it's just not what
19 I understand as part of the voting process, plus
20 I -- it was -- as I recall, although I could be
21 confusing this with another election, but as I
22 recall, it was a rather long ballot, and so my
23 neighbor was my witness, so I was conscious of
24 the fact that requiring her to witness my
25 filling out my ballot in the middle of making
44
1 dinner for her children was a bit of an
2 imposition.
3 Q. And were you able to fill out your ballot,
4 though, did you feel like, without your neighbor
5 seeing how you voted?
6 A. Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much, yeah. It was
7 just somewhat off-putting. You know, it's a
8 different experience. I also sent a note to the
9 LISTSERV, the neighborhood LISTSERV, suggesting
10 that if people had trouble voting, that the
11 absentee ballot was more, as I understood it,
12 liberal than it used to be, the requirements,
13 and several people responded that the
14 two-witness requirement or a Notary requirement
15 was a difficulty that might make it less
16 attractive to them.
17 Q. Did you keep any of those e-mails that you got?
18 A. Well, my husband accuses me of never deleting
19 any e-mails, so it's possible.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. It's possible. Not definite, but it's possible.
22 Q. Well, would you say several? I mean, how -- how
23 many people are you talking about?
24 A. Oh, two or three.
25 Q. And do you know if those people actually voted
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45
1 or not?
2 A. No, I don't know. I don't even remember who the
3 people were.
4 Q. Looking at this form you completed when you were
5 a poll watcher for Democracy North Carolina --
6 and I'm talking about the -- the only exhibit we
7 have, Exhibit 1 here -- I think you testified
8 earlier that for the most part, you were outside
9 of the precinct; is that right?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Now, was -- was there any time in which you were
12 inside of -- of the polling place when you were
13 working as a -- as a poll watcher?
14 A. Yes. Once or twice I went in to get the poll
15 worker that was assigned to curbside voting to
16 let him know that there were curbside voters
17 waiting to be serviced or given service.
18 Q. And why did you do that?
19 A. Why did I do that? To be helpful.
20 Q. Okay. Well, I mean, I think you testified
21 earlier that there was lines for curbside
22 voting; --
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. -- is that right?
25 A. Uh-huh.
46
1 Q. Were there lines the whole time or would it sort
2 of go in spurts; there might be a few cars and
3 then there might not be any cars and then there
4 might be some more? How -- how -- how did that
5 go?
6 A. Curbside voting was somewhat in spurts, although
7 I'm not sure that's the accurate way -- the
8 accurate way to describe it. It -- there wasn't
9 that much curbside voting early in the morning
10 because it's mostly elderly people. I assume
11 they don't get out that early. Once it -- the
12 morning progressed, there was pretty steadily a
13 significant line at curbside voting. The line
14 for regular voting got shorter or longer, but
15 there was always a fairly substantial line --
16 line.
17 Q. Okay. And -- and when you went to talk to the
18 poll worker, though, about the fact that there
19 was someone waiting to vote curbside, was that
20 because there wasn't a line and he -- he wasn't
21 out there seeing that? Is that -- is that -- is
22 that why you had to do that?
23 A. I don't understand your question.
24 Q. Sure. You -- you said you had to go inside and
25 -- and get the -- a person or a poll worker
47
1 responsible for curbside voting. Like, what --
2 why was he unaware that there would -- would
3 have been a -- somebody waiting to vote
4 curbside? Is that because there was no line?
5 A. When he went in --
6 Q. Yeah.
7 A. -- do you mean?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. That may have been the reason once or twice, but
10 I also had the impression that he had more
11 duties than just servicing the curbside voting.
12 So he may have gotten stuck inside doing another
13 duty because it wasn't always because there was
14 no line when he went in, but I think once or
15 twice that was the reason.
16 Q. And when you were inside the polling place, did
17 you have a chance to hear any conversations that
18 were occurring between voters and poll
19 officials?
20 A. No, I did not. I was inside there a very short
21 time. And, in fact, the -- I don't know what
22 the person is called, but the head election
23 worker instructed us to stay a certain distance
24 away from the polls.
25 Q. So the entirety of your experience recorded here
48
1 in Exhibit 1 is based upon things you observed
2 outside of the polling place; is that right?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. All right. And in looking at the first page
5 here, you were talking earlier about the people
6 who were turned away, and I believe you said you
7 -- you thought the majority of those folks were
8 African-American; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And amongst the folks, though, that you saw
11 voting at -- at this particular precinct during
12 the time that you were there on election day,
13 what was the race of -- of -- of those people?
14 A. I believe that the majority was
15 African-American.
16 Q. So if you had been working in a -- in a precinct
17 where -- where the majority of the voters were
18 white, would you expect to see that the majority
19 of the people who were turned away for being at
20 the wrong precinct would be white?
21 MS. MORRIS: Objection. It calls for
22 speculation, but you can answer if you
23 understood.
24 A. Maybe, but I don't know.
25 Q. Well, in -- in this case is -- it doesn't
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1 surprise you that -- that because of the
2 majority of the people who were there voting
3 were African-American, that the majority of the
4 people who were there because -- who were not
5 allowed to vote because they were at the wrong
6 precinct were African-American?
7 A. I guess that's correct. I guess that makes
8 sense.
9 Q. And the times that it says you were at this site
10 as a poll watcher, it says 6:30 a.m. to noon?
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. And -- and this was on, like, I guess, November
13 4th of 2014, which was the general election day,
14 right?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. And did -- I wasn't clear on this point. Did
17 you stay past noon?
18 A. No. Did I say --
19 Q. Well --
20 A. -- I did? I -- I -- I think -- no, I think I
21 left around noon. It may have been, like, 12:10
22 or something like that, but I was only assigned
23 from 6:30 to 10:30 and I -- I left shortly after
24 12:00.
25 Q. And you say that the -- at -- in the bottom of
50
1 the -- the first page of this exhibit, "The
2 voters on the addendum represent only a fraction
3 of the voters that were turned away." How do
4 you know that?
5 A. Well, because there were a not insignificant
6 number of people who did communicate to us that
7 they weren't permitted to vote, so that's what I
8 mean by turned away, and either said they were
9 in too much of a hurry to give us their
10 information or expressed the fact that they
11 didn't give out their name and their phone
12 number. And so -- and so those were just people
13 we talked to, and I have to assume that there
14 were some people that we didn't talk to. So
15 when you add together the people we talked to
16 and who -- who declined to put their names on
17 this list and the assumed other ones that we
18 didn't reach, that's why I think that the ones
19 we talked to only represent a fraction.
20 Q. Now, the ones who declined to put their name on
21 the list either because they were in a hurry or
22 simply didn't want to put their name on this
23 list, did you keep a tally of -- of how many
24 people that was anywhere?
25 A. No.
51
1 Q. So you -- you don't know an exact number?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And amongst the people on this list, if -- if
4 I've added it up correctly, it looks like there
5 are, perhaps, 56 names on this list; is that
6 correct?
7 A. I don't know. I haven't added it up.
8 Q. And -- and -- and I'm just getting that up at
9 the top. There's a number circled and it says,
10 "18, 20, and 18," and I think that equals 56,
11 but I'm -- I'm a lawyer, not an accountant, so I
12 -- I don't know. I don't know.
13 A. I'll take your word for it.
14 Q. Okay. All right. Now, amongst these -- these
15 people, though, listed on these three pages,
16 Addendum A, Addendum B, Addendum C, can you tell
17 me which of these specific people you actually
18 talked to about their voting experience?
19 A. Well, all of the people whose names are in my
20 handwriting, I talked to. And then I also
21 talked to some of the other people, but I'm not
22 sure which ones because I know that I turned in
23 a report on behalf of myself and my partner, and
24 I don't remember exactly how I got my partner's
25 input because all of these three pages have my
52
1 handwriting on it in some part. So the ones
2 that aren't in my handwriting, I'm not sure what
3 -- it's because my partner got the name or
4 because the people wrote it themselves, but I
5 can go through and tell you the ones that are in
6 my handwriting.
7 Q. If -- if you wouldn't mind doing that, please,
8 ma'am. That -- that may be helpful, and if you
9 want --
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. -- to tell me which ones aren't in your
12 handwriting if that's easier, that -- we could--
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. -- we could do that too.
15 A. Okay. Lisa Renee Sanford is not my handwriting.
16 Michael Curry is not my handwriting. Elizabeth
17 Hill is not my handwriting. Tekisha Graham is
18 not my handwriting. Kathleen Tiu is not my
19 handwriting. Billy Pizzolato is not my
20 handwriting. Now that I'm reading -- the rest
21 of it on that page is in my handwriting. Now
22 that I'm reading that over, I suspect those were
23 -- those first one, two, three, four, five, six
24 that I mentioned are ones that were collected by
25 my partner because I think she was more in the
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1 habit of letting them write their name and
2 number down and I was more in the habit of
3 attempting to write it down myself unless it was
4 a complicated name which I had trouble spelling.
5 Q. Well, let -- and let me -- let me stop you for a
6 minute. You mentioned your partner several
7 times. Who was that?
8 A. I don't remember her name. I think her first
9 name was Della.
10 Q. And was she somebody who had also volunteered
11 with Democracy North Carolina?
12 A. Yes, she was.
13 Q. And you don't remember any other information
14 about her like where she was from or anything
15 like that?
16 A. Well, she was from Durham and I don't remember
17 anything else.
18 Q. All right. And -- and so on -- on this list
19 from Cynthia Robinson through Frank McLean,
20 you're saying all of those were in your
21 handwriting? And I'm looking at Addendum A,
22 which would be --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. All of those are my handwriting.
54
1 Q. And so you would have personally spoken with all
2 of those people?
3 A. Yes. That's correct.
4 Q. And you believe that all of those people were
5 told that they could not vote at the Durham
6 Public Library because they were in the wrong
7 precinct?
8 A. Yes. I know that that -- well, that's -- I know
9 that that's what they said they were told.
10 Q. Okay. And but you weren't present for any of
11 the conversations they had with poll workers?
12 A. No, I was not.
13 Q. And so your knowledge is only based upon what
14 they told you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. But they were all very upset when they told me.
18 I mean, they -- they -- almost to a person were
19 very upset.
20 Q. Okay. And looking at Addendum B, which is --
21 it's been Bates numbered page 6428 at the
22 bottom, --
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. -- which of these voters are in your
25 handwriting?
55
1 A. I believe most of them were. The ones that I
2 can identify that are not in my handwriting, I
3 think Ricky Sampson is not my handwriting,
4 although his phone number is in my handwriting.
5 Also with Angelia Snipes, it looks like she
6 wrote her first name and I wrote her last name
7 and her telephone number, and I don't know why
8 that happened. In the case of Tara Skelly, she
9 wrote her name. I -- I wrote her phone number.
10 Marcia Taylor clearly wrote her own name and
11 phone number. Everything else is in my
12 handwriting.
13 Q. And so which of these people do you think you
14 personally spoke with?
15 A. I think I personally spoke to all of them
16 because -- because with the exception of Marcia
17 Taylor, either the name -- either the whole
18 thing is in my handwriting or part of the entry
19 for the person is in my handwriting, so I
20 suspect this was a page that I was completing,
21 and so I'm certain of everyone except, perhaps,
22 Marcia Taylor, but I'm pretty sure that I spoke
23 to all these people.
24 Q. And do you believe that all of them told you
25 that they were unable to vote because they were
56
1 at the wrong precinct?
2 A. I am certain that all of them told me that they
3 were unable to vote because they were told they
4 were at the wrong precinct. They didn't say
5 they were at the wrong precinct. They said they
6 were told that they were at the wrong precinct.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Many of them thought that they were at the right
9 precinct.
10 Q. Okay. And with respect to this last page here,
11 Addendum C at the top, which of these names are
12 names that you -- you personally recorded?
13 A. I believe these were all recorded by me except
14 it looks like some of the hand- -- some of the
15 phone numbers might have been provided by the
16 voters. I may have handed the clipboard over
17 for them to write their phone number because the
18 handwriting for a few of the phone numbers looks
19 like it might not be mine. Or I might have just
20 been getting tired. But I -- I think some of --
21 some of the handwriting for the phone numbers is
22 mine, but some of them -- some of it looks like
23 it might not be. For instance, Rosa Keemer,
24 that doesn't look like my writing, but as -- as
25 -- similarly, the one under that, Antuan Spivey,
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1 does not look like my writing.
2 Q. Do you know if your partner did any of those?
3 A. I don't think so because the name -- the write-
4 -- the handwriting for the name itself looks
5 like my handwriting, although I have no idea why
6 sometimes I printed and sometimes that I wrote
7 it in script.
8 Q. And for these people, were all -- all of these
9 people people who indicated that they were
10 unable to vote at the -- at the precinct you
11 were serving as a poll watcher at?
12 A. Yes, they were.
13 Q. Okay. And I see one name crossed off here.
14 It's Constance, and I -- I can't make -- it's --
15 Evans is the last name.
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Do you know the reason why that name is crossed
18 off?
19 A. I don't know for sure, but I can say that
20 probably it was one of two things, either she
21 misunderstood what we were asking her, and in
22 discussing it further, revealed that she -- no,
23 I don't know why. No, that wouldn't have been
24 it. It could be because she said she didn't
25 want to be contacted, but I -- I'm not sure.
58
1 Q. And do you know if any of these people ever were
2 contacted after you spoke with them or your
3 partner spoke with them on election day to see
4 if they had voted?
5 A. I have no idea.
6 Q. Okay. And you don't personally know whether
7 these people later voted at another precinct, do
8 you?
9 A. I have no idea about any specific one, but I do
10 recall that many of them said they no longer had
11 time to vote. But whether they later found the
12 time to vote, I -- I can't -- I can't know that.
13 Q. And you didn't document anywhere on -- on this
14 form or anywhere else where any of the specific
15 people who told you that they no longer had the
16 time to vote?
17 A. I don't believe so, but I remember one person in
18 particular who had ridden the bus with her son
19 who was also a registered voter and had taken
20 two buses to get to the poll, and she was very
21 upset that they wouldn't let her and her son
22 vote, and I turned to see if I could get her
23 help to get to the proper precinct, and then I
24 got wrapped up in some other question that came
25 up, and when I went to find her, she was no
59
1 longer there, but she expressed the -- that she
2 didn't know how to get a public bus to the
3 precinct to which she was assigned.
4 Q. And who was that?
5 A. I -- I said she wasn't someone whose name I
6 captured. When I turned to capture her name,
7 she was no longer there. But she was, of the
8 people that I talked to, probably the most upset
9 because she had worked so hard to get to the
10 polls.
11 Q. Okay. And -- and -- and after your brief
12 conversation with her, she just went away, or?
13 A. Well, because I got -- there was a lot of
14 confusion, so I got pulled away to address
15 another person's concern and also because I was
16 going to try and find her a ride, and so I was
17 distracted for maybe five minutes and -- or
18 maybe less, but at least several minutes, and
19 when I went back to find her, she wasn't there.
20 Q. All right. And -- and you said that voters on
21 this list here -- and I'm just looking at the
22 first page -- were turned away after waiting 20
23 to 60 minutes?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. How did you calculate the wait time for these
60
1 voters?
2 A. I believe that we asked them how long that they
3 had -- that they had been waiting as part of
4 what we asked them when they came out.
5 Q. But you didn't record that anywhere?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And so your -- your estimate of the time that
8 voters waited, where does that come from?
9 A. It comes from my recollection that was recorded
10 within an hour of finishing my shift.
11 Q. And do you know how many of these voters on this
12 list or these three lists that we've looked at,
13 do you know whether all of them had to wait in
14 order to vote or whether it was just some of
15 them, or how many had to wait in order to vote?
16 A. All of them had to wait because the line never
17 went away.
18 Q. And so was there a -- a line when you arrived
19 there in the morning?
20 A. Yes, there was.
21 Q. Okay. But in terms of -- of calculating the --
22 the wait time, you're relying solely upon what
23 the voters told you; is that right?
24 A. I believe so. I believe so. It might have been
25 re- -- reinforced by our observations of the
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1 length of the line, which we could see from the
2 location at which we were interviewing people.
3 Q. And when you're looking at the length of a line,
4 how do you calculate how long it is? How -- if
5 you did it all, how -- how were you able to
6 assess that?
7 A. You mean how long it was in terms of the length
8 of the wait?
9 Q. Yeah. How -- how did you determine how long
10 somebody would've had to wait in line? Because
11 I know you said you were outside the precinct
12 and you didn't see what was going on inside the
13 precinct, so you wouldn't know exactly when
14 someone was able to actually get a ballot and go
15 vote and that sort of thing. How -- how were
16 you able to do that?
17 A. It was a combination of the length of the line,
18 our -- our observations of the length of the
19 line and what we were told by the voters. So in
20 the beginning, they were all saying 45 minutes
21 and the length of the line was to the end of the
22 sidewalk. And then late -- at some point in
23 midmorning, they were saying 20 minutes and the
24 length of the line was about half that long. At
25 some point in time, it extended beyond the
62
1 length of the sidewalk. So it was as a result
2 of the cor- -- of a correlation between what
3 they told us and our observations of the length
4 of the line.
5 Q. And -- and do you know how many people were in
6 line at any particular point during the day?
7 Did you ever count the number --
8 A. No.
9 Q. -- of people in line?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Now, I believe you testified earlier and -- and
12 you wrote on page 2 of this document that the
13 poll workers did seem to give the address of the
14 correct precinct to most of the voters who were
15 turned away; is that right?
16 A. Yes, that's correct, but many of the people
17 either didn't trust that it was the right
18 address because they had just been through the
19 experience of being told that they were at the
20 wrong precinct, so they either had doubts as to
21 whether it was correct, or they were in such a
22 state of confusion or didn't have anything to
23 write the -- the precinct to record the number
24 of the precinct, that by the time they got out
25 to us, they didn't know.
63
1 So one of the things we were doing and one
2 of the reasons that I think we didn't capture
3 all the names is because we were accessing the
4 State Board of Election Web site on our
5 smartphones and confirming, or in the case where
6 people had no idea, telling people which
7 precinct to go to.
8 Q. Okay. So you -- you had the ability to do that
9 outside the precinct? You had the ability to
10 look up where people were supposed to vote?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. And -- and you would help people do that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And amongst the people who came out and told you
15 that they had been told to go to a different
16 precinct and -- and said, "I'm not sure; I'd --
17 I'd like you to verify that," were -- were they
18 given the correct information?
19 A. Yes, I believe. In -- I can't recall any
20 situation in which they were not given the
21 correct information.
22 Q. And I think you said you thought that the fact
23 that the -- the Durham Library location that you
24 were at had started as an early voting location
25 may have caused some of the confusion about the
64
1 -- what the -- whether -- amongst people about
2 whether that was their correct polling place; is
3 that right?
4 A. Someone suggested to me that that was po- -- a
5 possible explanation. But when I tried to
6 determine through questioning the voters whether
7 that was the case, I didn't get information to
8 confirm that theory.
9 Q. Okay. And -- and you said that -- that many
10 voters said they had been voting at this
11 precinct for years. Do you know whether they
12 meant they had been voting there early for years
13 or that they had been voting there on election
14 day for years?
15 A. Most of them seemed to think they had been there
16 on election day for years. But as I said, I
17 didn't get anyone who said, "Oh, yeah, in the
18 past I guess it was early voting when I voted
19 here." No one confirm -- no one that I recall
20 said that.
21 Q. And did you specifically ask that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. And they -- they said -- they would say
24 no?
25 A. "No, I voted here on election day."
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1 Q. Okay.
2 A. I mean, most -- yeah, because I wanted to see if
3 that was -- I wanted to unearth the cause of
4 this con- -- vast confusion that existed, and so
5 that's why I would ask, "Well, are you sure that
6 the last time you voted here it wasn't during
7 early voting," and I don't recall anyone who
8 said, "Yes, that's why I voted here in the
9 past."
10 Q. I think you said someone suggested that --
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. -- to you, though?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Was that someone who would vote, or was it --
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. It -- when I called Democracy North Carolina to
18 find out what to do about this confusion, he
19 suggested that it might be because I was at a
20 location that somewhat unusually served as both
21 an early voting location and a -- an election
22 day precinct.
23 Q. And do you know how many people on this list
24 told you that they had voted at this precinct on
25 election day before 2014?
66
1 A. I think almost all of them, but I -- I -- I'm
2 not certain of that, but my impression is almost
3 all of them.
4 Q. But you didn't make any notation about --
5 A. No, I didn't. No, I did not.
6 Q. So you -- you can't say for sure?
7 A. No, I cannot say for sure. But I can say for
8 sure that most of them did. I just don't know
9 which ones did and which ones didn't, but I can
10 say most of them did.
11 Q. Now, you also testified that after the election,
12 is this right, that you worked a phone bank for
13 Democracy North Carolina that was aimed at
14 getting people to talk about their experience
15 voting in 2014; is that right?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. When was that?
18 A. I never worked a phone bank getting people to
19 talk about their experience. I work -- work --
20 worked a phone bank that was aimed at contacting
21 people who had been identified as needing to get
22 a state-approved voter i.d.'s --
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. -- to assist them in getting those i.d.'s
25 Q. Okay. So -- so you were calling people who
67
1 showed up on a -- on a list as -- as telling a
2 polling official in 2014 that they did not have
3 a state-approved voter i.d.; is that right?
4 A. They showed up on a list that was purported to
5 be people who told election officials that.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. And that list was provided by the Board of
8 Elections to us.
9 Q. And by us, you mean Democracy North Carolina,
10 right?
11 A. That's my understanding.
12 Q. Okay. And -- and -- and how many -- how long
13 did you participate in -- in that phone bank? I
14 think you said that you -- you participated in
15 one at Democracy North Carolina? Then you had
16 one at your house; is --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How many hours did you do the one at Democracy
21 North Carolina?
22 A. I think maybe two hours at Democracy North
23 Carolina, and then another couple -- another
24 hour or hour and a half that same evening I
25 finished up the list that I had started there,
68
1 and then maybe another two or three hours at my
2 home the next evening.
3 Q. And you said you hosted a phone bank at your
4 home. Does that mean other people were calling?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. How many people?
7 A. Three other people showed up.
8 Q. Okay. And how long did you make calls for?
9 A. Two or three hours. It started at 5:00, and I
10 think we finished up at 8:00.
11 Q. And it was your impression from that experience
12 that most of the people who were on that list
13 did, in fact, have an acceptable i.d. that they
14 could use to vote in 2016?
15 A. Yes, it was.
16 Q. And did you speak to anyone who did not, in
17 fact, have a photo i.d. that they needed to vote
18 or will need to vote in -- in 2016?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. How many people would you say that was?
21 A. Over the three periods of time that I called
22 people, which was -- in fact, I don't think it
23 was two consecutive days. I think it was a
24 Thursday and then the following Monday, so it
25 was the Thursday afternoon, Thursday night and
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1 Monday night. Over that time period, I would
2 estimate that I spoke to less than five people
3 that needed i.d.'s.
4 Q. And when someone told you that they needed an
5 i.d., what did you do with that information?
6 A. I asked them if I -- I asked follow-up questions
7 such as, "Do you have a birth certificate?"
8 That was the main question. And then I
9 identified them on the list as a person needing
10 an i.d. and -- and I turned that list in with
11 the assumption that those people would be
12 followed up with.
13 Q. Okay. But you didn't follow up with them
14 yourself?
15 A. No, I did not.
16 Q. And amongst those you said -- I think you said
17 less than five indicated that they did not have
18 an i.d. that would be acceptable to vote in
19 2016. Did all of those folks seem to have a
20 document or documents that they would need in
21 order to obtain an i.d. to vote in 2016?
22 A. I don't believe so. I don't believe that all of
23 them did, but I don't recall how many did and
24 how many didn't. But it's my impression that
25 not all of them did.
70
1 Q. But you can't remember how many did or didn't?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. And you didn't keep copies of -- of -- of
4 those records either?
5 A. No. I turned them in.
6 Q. Okay. I want to talk a little bit about your
7 background, your personal background, and I
8 think Ms. Morris got into -- into that a little
9 bit. Here in the community it sounds like you
10 -- you parti- -- you -- you work with or
11 participate in activities with Democracy North
12 Carolina on occasion; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. What other activities are you involved
15 with -- with -- with Democracy North Carolina?
16 A. No, no continuous activities. It's kind of --
17 like, I'll get an e-mail now and then that
18 they're doing a phone bank or something like
19 that and I will, if I have the time, respond to
20 it and participate, but, as I said, now and
21 then.
22 Q. And before 2014, did you have any involvement
23 with Democracy North Carolina?
24 A. No, I did not.
25 Q. Okay. And what led you to get involved with
71
1 Democracy North Carolina?
2 A. Well, I had been involved with You Can Vote, and
3 when the 2014 election was approaching -- was
4 coming up, I asked people in You Can Vote what
5 organization I could contact because I wanted to
6 do something on election day. And it was
7 someone in You Can Vote that referred me to
8 Democracy North Carolina. So it's only -- the
9 first time I had any contact with Democracy
10 North Carolina was a few weeks before election
11 on 2- -- in 2014.
12 Q. And by election day 2014, you're speaking of the
13 general election only; is that right?
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. And with respect to the -- the sort of
16 experiment it sounds like your -- you and your
17 husband did on -- with absentee ballot, was that
18 in the -- was that in the primary of 2014?
19 A. Yes, it was.
20 Q. Okay. And what -- what led you to decide to try
21 that?
22 A. Well, with -- the people involved in You Can
23 Vote who are involved with registering people
24 were also examining the new election law, and
25 some people thought that some of the denial of
72
1 access to the vote of people who didn't have
2 voter i.d.'s, state-issued voter i.d.'s, could
3 be remedied by no-excuse absentee ballots, and I
4 was skeptical about that. And so my husband and
5 I completely on our own decided why don't we
6 apply for an absentee ballot and see what the
7 experience is like, and I told you what our
8 experience was.
9 Q. And I think you said your experience was is that
10 you were ultimately able to vote by mailing
11 absentee ballot, right?
12 A. Yes, we were.
13 Q. And your husband was as well?
14 A. Yes, we were.
15 Q. And other than that experiment with respect to
16 mailing absentee ballots, have you had any other
17 experience with mailing absentee ballots?
18 A. No, I don't think I've ever voted absentee
19 ballot before, but one of our other obser- --
20 observations was that we both have advanced
21 degrees and we thought it was a little bit
22 challenging to make sure we dotted all the I's
23 and crossed all the T's, and so we had no way of
24 knowing whether our ballot would be rejected if
25 we didn't cross all the T's and dot all the I's,
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1 but it also led us to speculate whether someone
2 without the education that we had would be more
3 -- particularly someone in advanced years would
4 be more challenged than we were in voting
5 through absentee ballot.
6 Q. Well, in -- in thinking about that process, I
7 understand what -- what you need to do and what
8 you probably did first was you had to fill out
9 an absentee ballot request form; is that right?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. And do you remember doing that?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. And do you remember having trouble filling out
14 that form?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Okay. And what -- what trouble did you have
17 filling out the absentee ballot request form?
18 A. I don't remember about specifics, but I remember
19 that the questions were ambiguous. And, again,
20 wanting to do it exactly right, I remember not
21 knowing exactly what information they were
22 looking for. And at one point I was with a
23 group of three other people from You Can Vote
24 because we at -- were trying to get people to
25 fill out absentee ballot requests, so we wanted
74
1 to go through the form and make sure that we
2 knew what each question was asking for. And we
3 couldn't figure it out, and -- and these are
4 people with even more advanced degrees than I
5 have. And so on several of the questions we
6 called this -- I don't know if we called the
7 local Board of Elections or the State Board of
8 Elections to try and determine what information
9 was being sought by a particular question, but I
10 don't remember which questions those were.
11 Q. Okay. So -- so you -- you don't remember which
12 questions that were confusing over others?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. I do remember that it was a fairly long form.
16 It wasn't a -- a simple form.
17 Q. Okay. And so you called, you said, either the
18 state or local Board of Elections and you asked
19 your questions?
20 A. I didn't call. Another person called.
21 Q. Okay. And that -- that other person was with
22 You Can Vote?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And were they able to get their questions
25 answered, if you know?
75
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. And so after that, and I guess just
3 thinking kind of about your personal experience,
4 you completed the form, though?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you mailed it in; is that right?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And sometime later you got a absentee ballot in
9 the mail; is that right?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. And then you said you got your husband to
12 witness your ballot and then you went and got
13 your next-door neighbor to a witness -- be a
14 witness as well?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And I guess he or she also witnessed your
17 husband's --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- ballot? Okay. And you were also able to --
20 you mailed that ballot after you completed it?
21 A. I think we took it over to the Board of
22 Elections --
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. -- is what I recall because I have a visual of
25 handing it to the administrative assistant at
76
1 the Board of Elections.
2 Q. Now, after you received your ballot, was there
3 anything that was complicated or confusing about
4 that process?
5 A. There were just a lot of instructions, and I
6 don't remember what -- what they were, but it --
7 again, wanting to make my vote count, it just
8 made me nervous that what if I didn't follow one
9 of these instructions when my votes will be
10 counted? So but I don't remember what they
11 were. But my husband and I both checked each
12 other to make sure that we had done it properly.
13 Q. And did you say that was the first time you had
14 voted absentee ballot since you'd been voting by
15 mail?
16 A. Yes, it was.
17 Q. Okay. And -- and do you feel like you would be
18 able to vote absentee ballot by mail again?
19 A. Certainly it would be more comfortable the
20 second time than it was the first time.
21 Q. Okay. And I think you said with the You Can
22 Vote organization -- is that -- is that
23 organization affiliated with any other group or
24 organization?
25 A. I think they might be, but I don't know what
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1 their legal structure is, but they are a
2 nonpartisan organization that primarily
3 registers voters, both Democratic, Republican
4 and independent.
5 Q. And are they located just here in Durham or are
6 they a national organization or a state
7 organization?
8 A. I think we're just located here in Durham,
9 although we're -- although people in the
10 steering committee are starting to train people
11 who want to lead voter registration drives in
12 other parts of the state.
13 Q. Okay. I think you said that -- that You Can
14 Vote is how you got linked up with Democracy
15 North Carolina; is that right?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Okay. So somebody recommended -- somebody from
18 You Can Vote recommended that you get involved
19 with Democracy North Carolina?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Okay. And are there any other organizations
22 that you're involved with politically? Are you
23 involved with any political campaigns or
24 anything like that?
25 A. No, not currently.
78
1 Q. Well, I guess in two-thou- -- thinking back to
2 2014 or -- or before then, were you -- were you
3 ever in- -- involved with any presidential
4 campaign or anything like that?
5 A. Well, there wasn't a presidential campaign in
6 2014.
7 Q. Well, think -- yeah, thinking about, I guess,
8 even before then, to 2012, for example, were you
9 involved with any campaign?
10 MS. MORRIS: Objection to relevance.
11 A. Yes, I was.
12 Q. Okay. And -- and what campaign was that?
13 A. I was involved in the presidential campaign, and
14 I volunteered for President Obama.
15 Q. Okay. And in -- and in 2014 we had a Senate
16 race here in North Carolina. Were you involved
17 in that Senate race in any way?
18 A. No, I was not. I was only involved in
19 nonpartisan efforts to registered voters.
20 Q. Okay. And -- and -- and, I mean -- and would
21 you say that you -- you personally, politically,
22 are you a Democrat or a Republican?
23 A. I'm a Democrat.
24 Q. Okay. And are you otherwise politically
25 involved in any sort of efforts to oppose voter
79
1 i.d. laws or anything like that?
2 A. I occasionally attend meetings of people who
3 discuss some of the issues related to the laws,
4 but no formal efforts.
5 Q. And -- and -- and what sorts of meetings are
6 those?
7 A. I think that they're primarily organized by
8 Democracy North Carolina, but it involves groups
9 from other -- primarily other nonpartisan groups
10 who are trying to expand access to the vote and
11 are exploring ways to do that, which -- which
12 are not partisan. You know, it's just a way to
13 make registration easier for everybody.
14 Q. And do you know the name of that group or
15 coalition that you're referring to?
16 A. No, I don't know the name. I don't know the
17 name. I've been to a few meetings.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. Maybe three, four meetings over a period of time
20 of people who are talking about expanding voter
21 registration access.
22 Q. Is it just voter registration, or is it actual
23 voting or all of those things, or?
24 A. It's primarily voter registration. We have also
25 discussed but haven't done much, but have
80
1 discussed ways of expanding the definition of
2 student i.d.'s in line with efforts of I believe
3 it's representative Hall, Larry Hall, who
4 recently introduced a bill to expand the
5 definition of student i.d.'s, and we've
6 discussed how we might support those efforts as
7 well, but not much has been done along those
8 lines.
9 Q. And have you discussed those efforts with
10 representative Hall?
11 A. I -- I believe some people from this group have,
12 but I have not personally and he has not
13 attended any of these meetings.
14 Q. Okay. I want to -- I want to show you a
15 document. Ms. Schaffer, do you have a Facebook
16 account?
17 A. Yeah, I do.
18 Q. Okay. I want to show you a document here and
19 see if you recognize this, and we can just label
20 it as Exhibit 2.
21 (WHEREUPON, Exhibit 2 was marked for
22 identification.)
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
24 Q. I don't know. Is -- is -- is this your Facebook
25 account?
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1 A. It appears to be.
2 Q. Okay. And this appears to be your picture here
3 in Exhibit 2, and -- and -- and there's some
4 organizations here and some items that are
5 listed under Favorites. Do you see those?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Are those -- are those organizations or items
8 that -- that -- that you've selected as -- as
9 some of your favorites there?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay. And -- and which -- which of those are
12 not organizations or items that -- that you --
13 you had selected as -- as -- as -- as favorites?
14 A. I'm not aware of the function on Facebook of
15 selecting favorites. I don't recall ever doing
16 that. I didn't know it existed.
17 Q. Okay. And -- and, I mean, have you ever joined
18 any of these groups on Facebook? I see there's
19 a group called Americans Against the Republican
20 Party.
21 A. No, I have not.
22 Q. Women for Obama?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Kay Hagan for Senate?
25 A. I didn't know that was a group, but I may have
82
1 endorsed -- you know, I may have said something
2 on Facebook to endorse Kay Hagan, but I don't
3 recall joining a group.
4 Q. Okay. I mean, do you -- do you --
5 A. Some of these organizations I never heard of,
6 many of them.
7 Q. Okay. Are -- are -- are --
8 A. And I certainly am not fond of Biscuitville
9 except that my daughter's dog was in a contest
10 for Biscuitville, so that may be why that's on
11 there.
12 Q. Are you familiar with the feature on Facebook
13 where you like certain things?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Do you think you may have liked any of
16 these groups, organizations at any point in
17 time?
18 A. Well, I certainly would have liked Chasing Ice
19 and Rachel Maddow. And I don't recall liking
20 these other things, but it's certainly possible
21 that I did for some of these people, some of
22 these organizations or people.
23 Q. And -- and one of them I saw is -- is one called
24 Court Rejects Texas Voter I.D. Law. Have --
25 have you been following what's going on in the
83
1 -- with respect to the Texas voter i.d. law?
2 A. I try to, but there have been so man- -- I have
3 been attempting to follow it, but there have
4 been so many disparate opinions, that -- that I
5 am having a hard time figuring out where the
6 courts are going with this.
7 Q. And when did you first become aware that North
8 Carolina had -- had passed a law that -- that
9 we're here talking about today, which is the law
10 -- it's often called Session Law 2013-381 VIVA,
11 some people call it. It includes voter i.d. but
12 also changes to early voting, same-day
13 registration, out-of-precinct voting that we've
14 talked about. When did you become aware that
15 that law had been passed?
16 A. I think I became aware of it immediately after
17 it was passed, which I think was in probably
18 early 2013, but I'm not sure. I'm sure I became
19 aware of it immediately after it was passed
20 because I pay attention to current events, and
21 I'm very concerned about voting access, so I
22 particularly pay attention to laws about that,
23 as you noted, not only North Carolina, but in
24 other states as well.
25 Q. And since that law passed, have -- have you
84
1 spoken with anybody at the General Assembly
2 about that law or -- or even before it was
3 passed, did -- did -- did you have any
4 conversations with anybody at the General
5 Assembly while it was being considered?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. No -- no conversation with anybody at the
8 General Assembly at all about the law?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. I don't recall ever having a conversation with
12 anyone in the General Assembly.
13 Q. And have -- have you ever participated in the
14 Moral Monday events or anything like that?
15 A. Not specifically, not Moral Monday events, but
16 events. We participated in HJ1K one year.
17 Q. Okay. And I think it might be called HK on J or
18 something; --
19 A. Thank you.
20 Q. -- is that right? Okay.
21 A. Thank you.
22 Q. All right. Do you remember what year -- what
23 year that was -- that was?
24 A. 2014.
25 Q. Okay. And that was something organized by the
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1 North Carolina NAACP?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. And what was the purpose of that event?
4 A. I think that the purpose was to support various
5 causes related to justice in North Carolina,
6 including voting but other issues as well.
7 Q. And was there any mention of the law that we've
8 been here talking about today, VIVA or the voter
9 i.d. law, anything like that?
10 A. I'm sure there was.
11 Q. Okay. And was that rally generally to oppose
12 that law and those efforts to require voter i.d.
13 and --
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. Now, Ms. Morris asked you a little bit about how
16 you first heard of this lawsuit, and I believe
17 that you said someone from the Advancement
18 Project had talked to you; is that right?
19 A. Yes. I mean, I was aware that there were
20 several lawsuits challenging the law, but I
21 wasn't familiar with the parties to the
22 lawsuits. So I would have -- so I would have to
23 say the first time I was aware of this specific
24 one was when I got called.
25 Q. Okay. And when -- when did someone with the
86
1 Advancement Project first contact you to let you
2 know that there was a -- a lawsuit filed?
3 A. I would say a few months ago.
4 Q. And how many conversations would you say you had
5 with someone with the Advancement Project about
6 these lawsuits?
7 A. Substantive conversations, I recall two. Then
8 there were a few conversations that were, like,
9 administrative, confirming that I was available
10 on certain dates and things like that.
11 Q. Okay. And did you speak with Donita Judge, or
12 was there someone else at Advancement Project
13 you spoke with?
14 A. I spoke to Donita Judge, but I think that most
15 of the -- of -- a few times. I don't recall
16 that many of those conversations were
17 substantive. I think they were the more
18 administrative ones, and I spoke to two other
19 people prior to that. There might have been a
20 short substantive conversation with Donita
21 Judge. I'm not certain.
22 Q. Do you remember anything Ms. Judge would have
23 shared with you about -- about the lawsuits and
24 what --
25 A. No. Primarily she was asking me questions about
87
1 my experience. She on- -- the only thing she
2 would have shared with me about the lawsuits was
3 that the trial was going to be in July and
4 that's when we discussed that I was going to be
5 out of the state for most of July.
6 Q. I see. And -- and other than Ms. Judge at
7 Advancement Project, have you spoken with anyone
8 at Kirkland & Ellis about the lawsuit or any
9 other lawyer about these lawsuits?
10 A. Not until a day or two ago.
11 Q. Okay. And was that just to prepare for your
12 deposition today?
13 A. To make the arrangements to prepare and, you
14 know, to arrange for a brief preparations.
15 Q. And do you recall anything specifically you were
16 told about these lawsuits and those preparation
17 sessions?
18 A. I recall being told that you were a pretty nice,
19 straightforward guy.
20 Q. Oh, I bet -- I bet they told you to say that.
21 No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Well, I'm -- I'm
22 glad to hear that.
23 MS. MORRIS: I'd like to put on the
24 record that Mr. McKnight is slightly blushing at
25 the time.
88
1 MR. MCKNIGHT: That's why the camera
2 is not on me, at least I hope not.
3 A. I was told to answer the questions truthfully.
4 Q. What --
5 A. I was told a little bit about the themes.
6 Q. Okay. What -- what were the themes of the
7 lawsuit you were told about?
8 A. Well, I was told that the state's position is
9 that it's not discriminating against minorities;
10 it's just discriminating against Democrats.
11 Q. Okay. And who told you that?
12 A. Ms. Morris.
13 Q. Okay. Did she elaborate on that at all?
14 A. Not much. I think it was pretty
15 self-explanatory.
16 Q. And -- and -- and in terms of discussing that --
17 A. Well, the only elaboration was that she said
18 that the theme seemed to be that -- that all the
19 parties seek --
20 (Telephone interruption.)
21 MS. MORRIS: I don't think anyone's on
22 this.
23 THE WITNESS: Is anyone on the line?
24 MS. MORRIS: I think there's not a
25 line.
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1 MR. MCKNIGHT: Okay. That -- that --
2 that's all right.
3 A. That all parties -- that the -- one of the
4 themes seems to be that all parties try to
5 prevent people from voting when they're in
6 power, and that this law is being justified on
7 that basis. That's what -- that's really all
8 that I -- I recall. It wasn't a very long
9 meeting.
10 Q. I'll just look through my notes and see if
11 there's anything that I missed and hopefully not
12 keep you any longer here than we need to.
13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: You want to go off
14 record, or you --
15 MR. MCKNIGHT: I don't think I have
16 any further questions for Ms. Schaffer at this
17 time.
18 MS. MORRIS: I just have a couple more
19 unless you need a break. I don't think it will
20 go very long.
21 EXAMINATION
22 BY MS. MORRIS:
23 Q. Going back, Mr. McKnight pointed your attention
24 to your statement that there is a fraction of
25 voters that are accounted for in Addendum A, and
90
1 I believe you said that some people were
2 unwilling to give their information or were, you
3 know, in a hurry and couldn't?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Was there anyone who was unable or turned away
6 at the polls that you spoke with before you
7 started preparing this list?
8 A. Could you ask me that again?
9 Q. So earlier you talked about taking surveys of
10 individuals?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is there anyone that you spoke with while you
13 were taking the survey that was unable to vote
14 or turned away at the precinct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were all of the people that you spoke with while
17 you were taking that survey captured on Addendum
18 A?
19 A. I think so but I'm not certain, but there were
20 people during that time period also who didn't
21 have time to talk to us or didn't want to take
22 the survey. But all the people that took the
23 survey I believe -- I'm not a hundred percent
24 certain, but I believe I transferred those names
25 to these lists. Not all the people who took the
91
1 survey, but all the people who took the survey
2 and said they were unable to vote I transferred
3 onto this list.
4 Q. Now, who provided you with this specific form?
5 A. Democracy North Carolina.
6 Q. And was it part of your training to fill out
7 incident reports?
8 A. I believe so.
9 Q. And did your partner also attend a training by
10 Democracy North Carolina?
11 A. I think she did.
12 Q. And you took these names down as you were
13 talking with voters?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you completed the report, you said, within
16 an hour of returning or completing your shift?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you identified only about six names that
19 were in your partner's handwriting on the first
20 sheet and some that were in some combination of
21 your or the person's handwriting on the
22 remaining sheet?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And how do you know --
25 A. No. I didn't say they were in my partner's
92
1 handwriting. I said that they -- I believe they
2 were in the handwriting of the per- -- of the
3 person whose name is listed and that I think
4 perhaps that's the way my partner was gathering
5 names, by giving the clipboard to them and
6 having them put their own name and number down.
7 Q. Got it. And were you present when your partner
8 was giving the clipboard to other people?
9 A. Yes. We were within five to ten feet of each
10 other.
11 Q. Okay. So you walked and were present while she
12 was collecting names of people who had been
13 turned away as well?
14 A. Yes, and in some cases, could overhear as well
15 as see.
16 Q. Okay.
17 MS. MORRIS: That's all I have.
18 EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. MCKNIGHT:
20 Q. I know we're running out of tape here, but so I
21 -- I'll -- I'll be really quick here. What --
22 on the -- on election day when you were
23 conducting these surveys, how many people total
24 would you say you spoke with?
25 A. I don't know exactly what you mean by spoke
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1 with.
2 Q. Well, I -- I think you said you were surveying
3 voters about their experience voting generally,
4 and that -- that's where you ran across the name
5 of these people who -- who said that they had --
6 were told that they were in the wrong precinct.
7 How many people total would you say that you had
8 interactions with, including those who -- who
9 said had no problem voting; they're all people
10 who gave me commentary about their experience
11 but were able to vote and then you, of course,
12 have these people. How -- how many -- how many
13 would you say that would be?
14 A. I think any answer I gave would be a guess.
15 Q. Okay. All right. Fair enough. And you said
16 the -- for the people you spoke with who had
17 issues voting or were in the wrong precinct
18 before this, you -- do you know how many people
19 that would be?
20 A. I'm sorry. I'm having trouble focusing on your
21 question. It might just be that I'm getting
22 tired.
23 Q. Sure.
24 A. I'm not sure if it's that or -- or your
25 question's a little vague, so --
94
1 Q. Sure.
2 A. -- you want to try again?
3 Q. Sure. Sure. You said you spoke with some
4 people before you started compiling a list of
5 names of folks who said that they had been told
6 they were in the wrong precinct. Do you know
7 how many people you spoke with before you
8 started compiling this list of names?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. All right.
11 MR. MCKNIGHT: I don't think I have
12 any further questions for Ms. Schaffer.
13 MS. MORRIS: I don't either.
14 MR. MCKNIGHT: Can we get --
15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the
16 deposition of Ms. Susan Schaffer. The time
17 going off record is 12:07 p.m.
18 [SIGNATURE RESERVED]
19 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 12:07 P.M.]
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95
1 A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T O F D E P O N E N T
2
3 I, SUSAN SCHAFFER, declare under the
4 penalties of perjury under the State of North
5 Carolina that I have read the foregoing 94 pages,
6 which contain a correct transcription of answers made
7 by me to the questions therein recorded, with the
8 exception(s) and/or addition(s) reflected on the
9 correction sheet attached hereto, if any.
10 Signed this the day of , 2015.
11
12
13 SUSAN SCHAFFER
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
96
1 E R R A T A S H E E T
2 Case Name: North Carolina State Conference of the
3 NAACP, et al., v. Patrick Lloyd McCrory,
4 et al.; League of Women Voters of North
5 Carolina, et al. v. The State of North
6 Carolina, et al.; United States of
7 America v. The State of North Carolina,
8 et al.
9 Witness Name: Susan Schaffer
10 Deposition Date: May 8, 2015
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12 Page/Line Reads Should Read
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24
25 Signature Date
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1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA) ) C E R T I F I C A T E
2 COUNTY OF JOHNSTON )3
I, TAMMY JOHNSON, Court Reporter and4
Notary Public, the officer before whom the5
foregoing proceeding was conducted, do hereby6
certify that the witness(es) whose testimony7
appears in the foregoing proceeding were duly sworn8
by me; that the testimony of said witness(es) were9
taken by me to the best of my ability and10
thereafter transcribed under my supervision; and11
that the foregoing pages, inclusive, constitute a12
true and accurate transcription of the testimony of13
the witness(es).14
I do further certify that I am neither15
counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the16
parties to this action, and further, that I am not17
a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel18
employed by the parties thereof, nor financially or19
otherwise interested in the outcome of said action.20
This the 18th day of May 2015.21
22
Tammy Johnson, CVR-CM-M23 Notary Public #2001156008024
25
Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-54 Filed 07/08/15 Page 25 of 25
General Information
Court United States District Court for the Middle District of NorthCarolina; United States District Court for the Middle District ofNorth Carolina
Federal Nature of Suit Civil Rights - Voting[441]
Docket Number 1:13-cv-00660
LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF NORTH CAROLINA et al v. STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA et al, Docket No. 1:13-cv-00660
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