PUBLIC SESSION
MINUTES OF ORAL EVIDENCE
taken before
HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE
On the
HIGH SPEED RAIL (LONDON – WEST MIDLANDS) BILL
Wednesday, 11 March 2015 (Afternoon)
In Committee Room 5
PRESENT:
Mr Robert Syms (In the Chair)
Sir Peter Bottomley Mr Henry Bellingham
Mr Ian Mearns
____________
IN ATTENDANCE
Mr Timothy Mould QC, Lead Council, Department for Transport Mr Francis Partridge, Denham Against HS2
Ms Doreen McIntyre
Witnesses: Mrs Paula Sage, Mr Paul Pennifer and Mr Robert Young
Ms Sally Cooper and Mr Luke Oldfield Mr Michael Fosberry
Mr James Gibbs, Gibbs Gillespie estate agents Mrs Elizabeth Hall and Gary Davis
Mr David Gauke MP Ms Sally Cakebread Mrs Diane Blackwell Mr Thomas Bankes
Mrs Sylvia Ball and Ms Alexandra Smith Mr David Crofts
Mr Peter Miller, Head of Environment and Planning, HS2 Ltd
IN PUBLIC SESSION
2
INDEX
Subject Page Paula Sage, Paul Pennifer and Robert Young (Cont’d) Mr Miller, examined by Mr Mould 3 Mr Miller, cross-examined by Mr Young 6 Submissions from Mr Mould 7 Luke Oldfield and Sally Cooper Submissions from Ms Cooper 9 Submissions from Mr Mould 11 Michael Fosberry and others Submissions from Mr Fosberry 12 Mr Gibbs, examined by Mr Fosberry 19 Further submissions from Mr Fosberry 24 Submissions from Mr Mould 25 Elizabeth Hall and Gary Davis Submissions from Mrs Hall 29 Submissions from Mr Gauke 36 Response from Mr Mould 39 Sally Cakebread Submissions from Ms Cakebread 48 Submissions from Mr Mould 58 Diane Blackwell Submissions from Mrs Blackwell 61 Response from Mr Mould 67 Thomas Bankes Submissions from Mr Bankes 69 Submissions from Mr Mould 80 Sylvia Ball and Alexandra Smith Preliminary submission from Ms McIntyre on behalf of both petitioners 83 Submissions from Ms Smith 83 Submissions from Mrs Ball 87 Submissions from Mr Mould 91 David Crofts Submissions from Mr Crofts 97 Submissions from Mr Mould 101
3
(At 13.02)
1. CHAIR: Order, order. Welcome back to the HS2 Committee. The only
advantage of recessing, or when Prime Minister’s Questions is on is easier usually to
get in the queues for lunch because everybody else is watching what’s going on, so I
hope most people have managed to find somewhere to get a sandwich. Mr Mould?
Paula Sage, Paul Pennifer and Robert Young (Cont’d)
2. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, thank you. Mr Miller is going to just run through
the scheme in relation to the Misbourne, particular, I think Mr Miller, if you can just
explain the position a little further west as we get into the Chilterns tunnel?
3. MR MILLER: Yes. The area that we’re looking at at the moment in the Colne
Valley is covered by the Community Forum CFA report number seven and the River
Misbourne is covered in CFA eight, so it’s the next report along. That report describes
the route where it goes into a tunnel at the M25 and then through the first part, or
southern part of the Chiltern Hills, so we’re in the higher ground and we’re cutting
through it in a tunnel.
4. We pass the River Misbourne in two places, in between the Chalfonts and in the
area of Little Missenden, which is probably between Amersham and Little Missenden
in the Misbourne valley. The tunnels are about 20 metres deep there, to their crown, in
both locations, so we’re not directly affecting the Misbourne but the Misbourne is an
interesting river as the petitioners have highlighted. It is a chalk stream and these are
very valuable resources and they are only found in certain locations in the country, this
being one of them.
5. In my time on the project, it certainly has been part of the discussion, certainly in
the Chilterns, in particular in June 2011, there was quite a bit of debate about the effects
of the Misbourne with the route that we had then. The route was subsequently changed
and a longer tunnel was moved away from Amersham into its current position and that
longer tunnel then, we think that in the ground conditions in that location, will have less
risk associated with any surface water.
6. The Misbourne is associated both with surface water, as a feature in its own right,
and also it is fed by ground water, and I think the petitioner said that it was clean
4
because of the way it percolates through the chalk, and in fact rises through the chalk at
a point just north of Great Missenden, and then flows down to the Colne a little bit
further south from where the petitioners current reside.
7. So, it’s very important for its ecology and the water quality is a very important
aspect, and the nature of the river itself is an important aspect. So, what we’ve looked
at is, what is the effect the tunnels have on the water course, that’s set out in the
Environmental Statement, in the CFA eight, it’s at section 13.4 and you can go through
that. There is a good number of pages which really describes, in fairly non technical
language, what’s going on, for the ground water conditions and what we expect to do
with the tunnel and how we’re going to manage risks. All of this has been taken up
with the Environment Agency, and I think I’ve given evidence before where I’ve
described the relationship the project has with the Environment Agency, and we operate
a service level agreement with them. In fact, two of their members of staff work out of
our offices, so we have very immediate responses from the Environment Agency about
the plans that we have entered into. I personally think that’s very good practice, it’s the
sort of thing that has come through from the Olympics and other projects.
8. So, we take this very seriously, and the Bill takes it very seriously as well. There
are protected provisions for the water environment included within the Bill, and those
will ultimately be enacted. So, the protection of water has teeth because of the Act
itself, the legislation.
9. Further to that, we have the Code of Construction Practice, and as I say, we’ve set
out the likely construction methods in the Community Forum Report. Overall, we think
the risk to the river itself is minimal; there is always a risk and part of the risk
management is to think about how we will monitor that environment going forward,
whether it’s the ground water conditions or the surface water conditions, and that’s set
out in the Environmental Statement.
10. So, we’ve got a number of controls; Code of Construction Practice applies, and if
you need any further information about that, the controls that are generally applied, we
have set that out in the information paper, which hopefully will help everybody
understand what we’re doing, and it’s information paper E4, and that’s in as non
technical language as we can make it, so that people can understand the sorts of things
5
that we would do, by way of best practice, and the ES talks about these conditions in
particular to protect this important resource.
11. MR MOULD QC (DfT): There was one other point that the petitioners raised,
and that was about engaging with local bodies, and I think we have, haven’t we, been
engaging with the Chiltern Society in relation to the potential effects of the scheme on
the River Misbourne as well as with the agency and other regulatory bodies?
12. MR MILLER: Yes; back in 2011, when we went out on the consultation road
shows, I certainly met with a couple of the people from those interest groups, and
they’ve got interests in trying to maintain the flow of the river further up. In fact, they
are trying to protect the river by putting in a liner. Whether that’s the right thing to do
or not, I don’t know, but it’s certainly been part of the discussions that we’ve had way
back, the route in Amersham was in quite a deep cutting before it moved away, and is
now in a deep tunnel in that location. There were great concerns about the original
alignment because of some fissured chalk; some chalk with faults in it, that the original
cutting would have passed through, and we believe that the route is now in a much
better place for the ground water and the surface water conditions relating to the river
itself.
13. So, yes, the consultation and the further engagement has taken place. That’s also
taken place with the Environment Agency, that will continue with the Environment
Agency, I believe they will be very interested in understanding what our plans are for
the river, and that may even go to a consent regime to assure the Environment Agency
that we are able to protect the river and not cloud it in any way or otherwise pollute it.
So, it’s foremost in our minds and it is a particular resource of concern, and it has a
local ecological status; I think we need to talk about it being of regional value. I don’t
think it’s a SSSI, but it clearly is very important, and is obviously very clean, it’s got
trout in it.
14. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I suppose I might just also, for the record, at this point,
remind everybody that under paragraph 4.2.2 of the draft Code of Construction
Practice, very clear commitment that the nominated undertaker will engage with local
communities, local authorities and other stakeholders, in order to develop the local
environmental management plans, and at Annex 3 to that Code, there is a template,
6
‘Local Environmental Management Plan’, which says that, ‘These plans will set out any
site specific local control measures which are appropriate to the locality’ and one of the
topics that is mentioned is water resources and flood risk, and it says this, ‘Measures to
protect particularly sensitive water resources, water courses, water bodies, ground water
and abstractions, will be identified. Any site specific measures required to limit the risk
of flooding will also be identified. These will also be subject to relevant third party
consents and notifications’, and so there is a clear commitment to engaging with the
local community, as well as with the regulatory bodies, in the development of
appropriate local and site specific measures to safeguard, amongst other things, ground
water and local water courses for the purposes of constructing the railway.
15. Thank you. Shall I just deal with one or two other specific points?
16. CHAIR: Shall we just ask – do you want to follow up with a question?
17. MR YOUNG: Yes, perhaps more of a request. It’s reassuring to hear that so
much work has been done and so much thought has been given to it. The suggestion
that I have is that there could beneficially be a more formal arrangement between the
Environment Agency and the Chiltern Society or the Chiltern Area of Outstanding
National Beauty, such that the Environment Agency being a national agency is not
going to have the same kind of insight and input as a local expert resource such as that,
so what I would like to see is a more formal arrangement, rather than something which
is somewhat open ended and non specific, like ‘consulting with the local community’
could mean many things. Nailing it down a little bit more, such that the – let’s say the
Chiltern Society have a formal input into the risk management strategy and to policing
the construction as it goes along, that, I think, would be a good idea.
18. CHAIR: Okay, good point. Thank you. Whilst you’re here, the viaduct, does
that have any impact on the Misbourne?
19. MR MILLER: On the Misbourne?
20. CHAIR: Yes.
21. MR MILLER: No it doesn’t, no we’re much further up. The viaduct as it curves
across the water bodies there are cutting across and over a number of the lakes and then
7
we go over the River Colne, and as you heard yesterday, our plan is to divert that
slightly over a short distance so that we don’t have a pier appearing in the river itself,
which we didn’t think was a good thing to do, so the river alignment has been adjusted,
so that it can be more free flowing as a result.
22. CHAIR: Okay.
23. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: So essentially, on the Misbourne, the aim is that
the railway project shouldn’t do anything to interfere with its flow or with the quality of
the water? Basically.
24. MR MILLER: That’s right.
25. CHAIR: Carry on, Mr Mould.
26. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Thank you. I’ll just pick up on one or two detailed
points. If we can put up P5255. This is the question of duration of closure of Tilehouse
Lane. The proposal is that Tilehouse Lane along the length shown with the purple
crossed notation on the plan in front of you, that that will require to be closed for a
period of 1.5 years, and on the current programme, that closure would be during the
years 2017, 2018.
27. During that period of closure, as you can see with the blue notation, a local
diversion route is shown and the length of that diversion is shown in the box on the
bottom right hand corner of the side of the plan. That does involve local traffic passing
along Denham Green Lane, during the period of closure, that is the assumption that is
made in the Environmental Statement. There was a question raised, I think about
responsibility for the upkeep of that road; I understand it’s not an adopted highway. If
it is indeed a road in private ownership, then it may be that the frontages are responsible
for its upkeep and the law on these things is, as I’m sure the Committee knows,
fiendishly complicated, but I can cut through that by saying that of course, HS2 will be
responsible for any maintenance or upkeep that results from the scheme and whilst we
don’t propose to use that road directly for HS2 traffic, if the effect of closing a section
of road is to create a greater degree of usage of that road during the period of closure of
Tilehouse Lane than it would normally bear, and as a result its condition deteriorates,
then HS2 would be responsible for addressing that issue.
8
28. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Can I ask two questions, one is, does some
commercial traffic use Tilehouse Lane at the moment?
29. MRS SAGE: As a main thoroughfare to homes, farms.
30. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: So heavy vehicles may use it?
31. MRS SAGE: Sorry?
32. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Heavy vehicles may be using it?
33. MRS SAGE: Oh yes.
34. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: In which case, your road is vulnerable to those.
Who would make an assessment of the axel bearing capacity of the Denham Green
Lane in advance? It seems better to sort of make an assessment early, rather than have
all the surface underneath wrecked by getting 14 tonnes bouncing down it.
35. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Well the assessment would be a task for the project, for
the undertaker, but if it is indeed a private road, then it would be a matter…
36. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: It’s accepted that it’s non public road, we heard
nobody knows who has the legal responsibility for it.
37. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, it’s not an adopted road, I think is the point. It
would then be a matter for engagement through the – the same process that I have just
mentioned, the local environmental management plan, to make appropriate
arrangements for the management of traffic on that road, and I would have thought the
obvious thing, where a road is un-adopted, would be for the project to engage directly
with the frontages. But as I say, I do want to emphasise there is no proposal to route
HS2 traffic directly down that stretch of road.
38. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: No, and I don’t need to repeat that we seem to have
heard that commercial traffic may start going down it, which wouldn’t have done
otherwise.
39. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, and there may be a management issue to be
addressed there. Thank you. Can I just deal with another point which was to do with
9
Old Shire Lane. If we can put up P5298. I touched on this yesterday, but I don’t
believe I showed the Committee this slide. This is a slide which gives an indication of
the project’s proposal to seek to preserve, as far as we reasonably can, the existing
hedgerow vegetation along Old Shire Lane as it passes across the proposed main
construction site as West Hyde.
40. As I explained to you yesterday, we would need to remove some sections of
hedgerow in order to enable the construction site to operate but we are committed to
seeking to retain as much of the existing vegetation along that road as we can. I
appreciate that doesn’t answer the petitioner’s point about the change in the amenity of
the footpath and the bridleway, once the railway is running, but it addresses the point
about the physical impact of the scheme at this location, upon the ancient way.
41. The other point was to do with the clearance that will be available below the
viaduct as it passes across Harefield Lake, the lake which is used by the activities
centre. I’m told that the clearance is proposed to be 10 metres from soffit to water
level, which I believe, I say this guardedly, because I’m not sailor, but I believe is
sufficient clearance to allow the sort of dinghies that use the lake to get beneath the
viaduct. I don’t think there’s any other specific points to be raised but I’ll deal with
anything else that I may have missed.
42. CHAIR: Okay. Mrs Sage, do you have any other final, brief comments?
43. MRS SAGE: No, that was fine, thank you.
44. CHAIR: Okay. Well, thank you very much for your contribution. At least we’re
getting a bit more information about what’s going on. Thank you. Luke Oldfield and
Sally Cooper, who I understand are going to make a statement.
Luke Oldfield and Sally Cooper
45. MS COOPER: My property is Little Halings. This is my son, Luke. We came
here to try and protect our primary home, and also Luke’s business, which is a
recording studio. We’ve been in the corridor this morning discussing with HS2 Limited
representatives and I think they have come up with the assurances we were looking for,
so we’ve come really to hear those placed on record, because I just want to hear that.
10
I’ve been misled by HS2 in the past and it leaves you feeling really uncertain, and
there’s been five years of this, which has caused not just me, but everyone up and down
the line, a lot of stress and anxiety. I’m sure people are telling you that but I really want
to impress upon you, this is terrible, us all trying to fight for our homes.
46. I also made lots of general points in my petition, which obviously, I won’t go into
because I know you don’t want repetition and I’m not an expert, but I don’t want you to
think that I don’t mind about all these things; I do, I care deeply about the environment,
the loss of the greenbelt, the amenities that will be lost, the ancient hedgerow that we’ve
just been talking about, and that you try and look after all of us who live so close to this
in terms of noise, dust, light pollution, working hours, because I notice a lot of HS2 say,
‘Well, we’ll aim to do this, but we might have to do that’, and it makes you feel very
vulnerable.
47. Do you want to say anything, Luke?
48. MR OLDFIELD: We’re appearing together because we share the same concerns
really; we don’t want to take up too much of your time. I’m mainly here to hear what
HS2 put on record what we were discussing today.
49. CHAIR: Okay. Mr Mould?
50. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Thank you. The promoter will be providing assurances
on the following to…
51. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Before you do that, can you go to 5388 so we can
see?
52. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Certainly. Yes, thank you.
53. MS COOPER: If I could say just one more thing, those two fields that you can
see there that are mine, are wild flower meadows at the moment, and that’s how I’d like
them to remain, but I’ve basically been beaten into submission, I give up, and they’re
going to be as tree planting. And the other thing I’d like to say about that, is I found
that out by chance; a local farmer came to tell me and he’d found out by chance, and
it’s just so disturbing, it undermines your whole stability and your home. I’ve lived
there 35 years, I went there pregnant with my first daughter, I’ve raised all my family
11
there, I can’t tell you how upsetting it is.
54. CHAIR: Okay. Mr Mould?
55. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, thank you. As I say, the promoter would be
providing assurances on the following matters: firstly the meadows belonging to the
petitioner adjacent to the West Hyde construction area and shown in the Environmental
Statement to be used for mitigation planting and nothing else, and specifically, they will
not be used as a construction compound, and that relates to the areas that you can see on
the screen in front of you.
56. The second matter is the existing hedgerow at the edge of the meadows by Shire
Lane will be retained in its entirety along the boundary of Ms Cooper’s property.
57. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Can that be pointed out? Can you point to it? Or
maybe she can.
58. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I think we might go to the next slide.
59. MR OLDFIELD: The hedgerow’s the top red line, horizontal line.
60. MR MOULD QC (DfT): And the next point is this, a temporary three to four
metre earthwork bund will be placed between the temporary route for the Denham Park
Farm quarry access and the Old Shire Lane bridleway where it passes by the
petitioner’s property and that is broadly in the same location.
61. And then finally, HS2 Limited will work with Mr Oldfield and Ms Cooper to
establish whether there is likely to be an effect from noise upon their businesses and
identify possible solutions. And we will seek to complete work on those assurances so
that they are in final form to the satisfaction of the petitioners as soon as we can.
62. CHAIR: Okay, good. What is your businesses?
63. MR OLDFIELD: Well, the house that we live in has quite a hive of activity.
There are different sections of it; there’s a house, a cottage, an apartment, which my
mother runs as a bed and breakfast, but also professional recording studio, which is my
business. It’s been there since 1981. Obviously, it’s designed with the surrounding
countryside in mind, so when it was built, we never had a problem with noise and this
12
could really threaten my livelihood and job and everything I’ve been working towards.
Having a recording studio at home is really a dream for somebody my age, aged 28, and
that’s kind of under threat, so these assurances, hopefully, will help – well, they’re there
to help mitigate noise, but we don’t know how noisy it’s going to be but hopefully,
these things will help. That’s all we can think of.
64. MS COOPER: We live in absolute silence – I can tell you, a totally sleepless
night last night, so I can tell you it’s silent all night long and just broken by the birds at
quarter to six this morning, and obviously, it’s going to be very different.
65. CHAIR: Okay, thank you very much.
66. MS COOPER: Thank you.
67. CHAIR: We now move onto Michael Fosberry and others.
Michael Fosberry and others
68. CHAIR: We’re going to need to have a break at two, because we’ve got two or
three MPs coming in for a private session to talk about how we handle some business in
future and trips, so I’d be grateful if we could go straight to the point.
69. MR FOSBERRY: I will hope to do that, that’s what I always try and do. Can I
just go back to slide 5255? No, it wasn’t that one.
70. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Do you want to show where you are?
71. MR FOSBERRY: If you see where the ‘b’ is.
72. MR MEARNS: Can you point on the screen in front of you?
73. CHAIR: You’re on the ‘b’?
74. MR FOSBERRY: Our house is basically here.
75. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Five three four three will show us pretty clearly.
76. MR FOSBERRY: That’s it. And you’ll see we’re sort of an island in the midst
of safeguarded land all around us, so we are pretty close to the…
13
77. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: We heard evidence yesterday so we’re familiar
with –
78. MR FOSBERRY: What I’d like to do is start by talking a little bit about my
family, and that’s really why I’m here. We moved into this house which was a little
more than a shell back in November 1997, our son Jack was just two months old at the
time, and, having lived in London, inner London, it was our dream house; a rural
location, within the M25, and an easy commute to my office in the West End.
79. We’ve spent a lot of money over the years renovating the house and in 2008/9
moved out for a year to rented accommodation whist having major building works
carried out. May I have my first slide please?
80. We were out of the house for a year, we moved in about six or seven months
afterwards, then HS2 was announced. You can imagine the devastating effect that had.
81. From a heath perspective, obviously, one can’t link everything on health directly
to an announcement about HS2, but since we’ve returned to the house, I was diagnosed
with prostate cancer, and more recently, with type II diabetes. My doctor tells me that
I’m not a typical person for type II diabetes, I’m not overweight, apparently, which I
was pleased to hear, but that stress is often an issue, when it comes to type II diabetes.
Quite honestly, for the last five years, there has not been a day when I haven’t been
concerned about HS2 and its impact upon our family.
82. Retirement plans; I’m in my 63rd year. I was looking forward to retiring, around
aged 60. Everything has now been put on hold. I’ve viewed my house, I suppose, as a
bit of an insurance policy, and insurance policy, if it came to it, I would always have the
option of selling it, and realising funds from the sale of the property to finance our joint
retirement.
83. So, the net result of all this has been a devastating impact upon family and our
future. Can I have the first slide please?
84. So, that’s history. I’d just like to talk about the proximity to the proposed route,
environmental concerns I raised in my petition, and also a bit about the compensation
scheme. James here is going to act as a witness in relation to part of that exercise.
14
85. If I could move to the next slide. The back of our house is actually quite
important because all of the action on HS2 is happening behind us and beside us, not to
the front of the property. That’s the view from our back garden across the Colne
Valley. If we could move to the next slide, that shows the proximity of our house to the
proposed HS2 route. So we are very directly impacted. The road opposite us,
Tilehouse Lane, is going to be closed, we think for two years, although somebody was
suggesting earlier today, it might be five years, I don’t know what the true number is. If
we go to the next slide?
86. This also helps demonstrate the proximity; that’s the north east side of our garden,
looking about across the field which is known as Pines Field, showing the route across
Pines Field. Could I have the next slide please?
87. If you look at the impact on ecology, the River Colne. The Colne Valley is a
beautiful area. I know you came on your visit and it is at times surprising, at times
stunning. It’s a great place to live, for all sorts of reasons, it’s very close to central
London, but you have this rural feel to the local area.
88. River diversion, in relation to the Colne, to me is a very major issue and what the
impact of that might be. HS2 are currently stating that the work on the habitat will
happen just in advance of the diversion of the river. I actually think that that work on
the habitat has to start a lot earlier; you can’t start just in advance, and I’m talking
probably about years, rather than months.
89. In terms of monitoring, we do need independent monitoring of what is happening
with the river; how is that going to be delivered to us? Can local residents have
quarterly updates from the Environment Agency and National England, for example?
Is that on the table? I don’t know.
90. CHAIR: Don’t the Environment Agency monitor all the rivers?
91. MR FOSBERRY: They may do so, but do they report back to the local residents?
This is a pretty major change in our local ecology.
92. CHAIR: Okay.
93. MR FOSBERRY: Could I have the next slide please? Public rights of way;
15
we’ve heard a lot about Shire Lane – I think it was the ancient boundary between
Mercia and Wessex and currently the boundary between…
94. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: May you assume we’ve heard this twice before and
it probably hasn’t changed?
95. MR FOSBERRY: Okay. Well, it’s currently the boundary between Hertfordshire
and Buckinghamshire, beside my house, but there’s a public right of way running
alongside my house, and at the bottom of Shire Lane, to the right of that yellow line, is
where HS2 will be crossing Shire Lane, so Shire Lane will be closed. The statement
has been made by HS2 which says, ‘Alternative routes may be longer but not by that
great a distance’. Now, to get back to the same point as the yellow line to the right,
that’s the direction one would have to travel and it’s a distance of probably over two
miles, so I think again, we probably need to have a little bit of licence in terms of what
represents ‘great distance’.
96. So, I think the public right of way and connectivity is an area which I think has
only just been touched on, to be honest with you, by HS2; we need to look at this in
detail and consult with the locals and all of the people like the Colne Valley regional
park, to make sure that what is put in place actually works in practice. I’ve got three
dogs, my wife and I walk them around these public rights of way all the time. Come
and talk to the locals, see what our concerns are. That’s what we should be doing, and
none of that has been happening. Could I have the next side please?
97. Public rights of way – next slide, sorry. Noise and vibration. I ask the question,
‘Will noise and vibration levels be tested against World Health Organisation
standards?’ My understanding is that those World Health Organisation standards say
that any persistent sound over 40dB can cause irreparable harm.
98. If you look at the sound map, and I’m not sure which of the HS2 exhibits it is, and
in relation to my property, which was marked up as a property which would be affected
dramatically by noise levels when HS2 was running, and during the construction
process, that the minimum level is 40dB. So, are we happy that people should be
exposed to something which is in excess of World Health Organisation standards?
99. Again, sound levels, are they going to be independently assessed? What power
16
do we have to do anything about it if they exceed those limits, once the train is running,
what can we do? Is our house a significant observable adverse effect level?
100. In two statements, both made in response to my position, HS2 have said, ‘Our
house is identified as being significantly affected by noise’ on the Environmental
Statement, significantly affected. However, HS2 said that they do not consider it
significant as we are outside the SOAEL. These statements are at odds.
101. So who tested it? Well, HS2 and Government officials, a truly independent body,
I think not. So we need a truly independent noise arbitrator appointed who can
challenge the findings of HS2 and there should be ongoing monitoring of the noise and
vibration levels to determine whether they are going to cause any long term harm to
people living near the line.
102. If we make appeals, what happens? It goes to the Secretary of State. Is he going
to make a decision to stop work on HS2? And I’ll read HS2’s response to this point,
point 19. ‘Essentially, nothing will stop work as the Bill defence scheme under section
8 of the 1990 Act’. So, basically, once work starts, there’s very little we’re going to be
able to do about anything. Next slide please.
103. Dust and air quality. That’s actually my son, who unfortunately, he couldn’t be
here today because he’s studying for his AS levels, but he is an asthma sufferer, so air
quality means a lot of us, and I suspect it means a lot to all the other people living in
Denham. So, the health impact is obviously a big issue.
104. Who is going to measure air quality? Is it going to be independently assessed and
by whom? The suggestion is made that we have resort to the Complaints
Commissioner, in the event that we consider the air quality to be too poor. By then, it’s
already too late. I suspect this is a significant potential for claims against the
Government, potentially for the next 50 years or so, from issues around the question of
air quality.
105. Going back to Pines Field, we know that a great deal of asbestos is buried in that
field. I wasn’t there when it was put in the field, but a lot of people here have been
living in the area for 30 years or more who will confirm that. Who is going to confirm
and guarantee that we will not be affected when it is removed? If there’s no
17
independent assessment to ensure there is no possible health impact to local residents,
how can we have any confidence in the process?
106. The nominated undertaker – and that word may be particularly relevant in this
context – will have only one interest, i.e. making their construction deadlines.
107. Disruption to services. We believe the Colne Valley is a special case, we have
had significant environmental issues in the last couple of years, in the West Hyde,
Tilehouse Lane area with flooding, and some people here were devastated during the
previous winter by flooding which involved raw sewage going into their homes, and
being there for a couple of months. Many properties in the area have no mains
drainage. We don’t have mains drainage, we have a plant which then pumps the
effluent into the hotel next door, De Vere Hotel, and it then goes into their private
sewage system and is then pumped down onto the A412, and it then goes along to the
processing plant in Maple Cross.
108. Do HS2 even know that our pipes exist? Because they are going to go straight
across where the line is going, as it goes down towards the 412. Nobody’s consulted
with us, nobody’s asked us the question, and I am concerned. Also, we’ve got to be
concerns about other utility services to our property, and other properties in Tilehouse
Lane.
109. Hydrology. We had a recent battle in relation to Pines Field, which is next to my
house, and opposite West Hyde. And that battle has been around what I think was an
opportunistic application for gravel extraction on Pines Field, alongside the existing
permission on Denham Park Farm. This went to appeal, and let me just read something
from the Planning Inspectorate’s appeal decision. ‘In addition, and by far the greatest
concern to me, is the potential for the development to give rise to pollution or
contamination of highly sensitive ground water. The National Planning policy
framework does not refer simply to harm to the greenbelt, and any other harm, but to
potential harm. There is potential harm arising from this proposed development, and it
is potentially serious’. So, our local water, believe it or not, is of significant concern to
local residents.
110. In the response to my petition, I think HS2 have basically confirmed that there is
the potential of serious harm to our water supplies, but in those circumstances, we could
18
import water, that’s what it says, we could intercept poor quality water, or we could
treat water. Now, none of those statements actually fills me with any great confidence,
that we can rely upon our water supplies in those circumstances. How can we possibly
believe that our water will be safe? Can I have the next slide please?
111. A lot has already been said about tunnels etc, so I’m not going to add too much to
that debate. I do think if we are looking at a tunnel under the Colne Valley, and I think
that is the only way to save the Colne Valley. Somebody called it, I think when you
came on your visit to the local area, ‘Our Lake District’, and it is very much that. The
views across from Harefield, across to the other side of the Colne Valley are stunning.
Those views would be decimated by the viaduct, first of all, and then by cuttings etc,
going across Pines Field. The only way to avoid that is to have a tunnel and I gather
there’s some concern about continuous tunnel, the topography of the land is such that
the tunnel could emerge closer to the M25 on the other side of the hill, opposite our
house, and it would have a four or 500 metre run, above ground potentially, before it
enters the Chalfont tunnel. So I think that is one which would seriously…
112. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Let’s put your finger on where you think it should
be?
113. MR FOSBERRY: Yes. Just about there. I think that option would preserve and
save the Colne Valley, it has lots of other issues around it, of course, in terms of spoil
but I believe that it is a viable solution. Could I have the next slide please?
114. Construction traffic; again, we’ve heard a lot about traffic movements in the area.
I’ll just give you one simple example. My wife turns right out of our house into
Tilehouse Lane, every morning to take our son to school. It is a distance of a little over
half a mile to the end of Tilehouse Lane where it exits onto the A412. On bad days,
that half a mile can take 40 minutes because of the volume of traffic coming off the
A412 who are trying to get off the A412 because it’s backed up from the Denham
Green junction, which is a distance of almost a mile and a half. Obviously, traffic
trying to exit the only option they have, is to go onto Tilehouse Lane.
115. The A412 also is a relief road for the M25 and quite often it is closed between
Junction 17 and 18; that is the only way in which traffic can be diverted off the M25 in
that area. We had the addition of the gravel extraction lorries, with the addition of the
19
lorries from HS2, the next eight to 10 years in the Denham area, maybe 15 years, are
going to be an absolute nightmare, and it doesn’t really matter to me, what sort of travel
plan anybody puts in place, it is going to be a disaster area. How is the area going to
cope? I have absolutely no idea. What traffic management scheme might work? I
suppose if you make all the traffic from HS2 operate between the hours of perhaps one
in the morning and five in the morning, you may have some chance of alleviating the
problem, but that’s not going to happen in the real world.
116. We do need a traffic management scheme but we do need an independent
assessment of that traffic management scheme, and I would urge that local residents
should be involved in that process, because we are the ones who actually have to
experience it.
117. I’d like now to talk about compensation. I’d like to introduce James, who is one
of the owners of Gibbs Gillespie estate agents. James.
118. MR GIBBS: My business is a medium sized firm of estate agents with 11
branches. We are based in north west London, specifically covering the HS2 blighted
areas of South Ruislip, Ruislip, Ickenham, Harefield, Denham, West Hyde etc. I’m not
here today to complain about the areas where I can’t sell houses, although this is an
issue. I’m here today because I feel desperately sorry for those affected by HS2.
119. MR FOSBERRY: Now, James – do you mind if I ask questions…?
120. CHAIR: Get your money’s worth.
121. MR FOSBERRY: HS2 in various documents have stated that some properties
may be affected by blight, what’s your experience?
122. MR GIBBS: Absolutely. Where HS2 is routed near homes, these homes are
affected by blight. In September 2013, we received an email from local MP Nick Hurd,
asking if blight was real. This really exasperates me. If a potential 250 mile an hour
train frequently passes your house within 100 metres, 500 metres, trust me, it is going to
suffer with blight. How loud is a 250 mile an hour train? Does anyone know, yet?
123. MR FOSBERRY: Do you have any examples of properties you’ve been dealing
with that have been affected by blight?
20
124. MR GIBBS: Yes, quite a few. Since HS2 was announced, we have been called
out to several roads affected by HS2. In the areas of Ruislip, Herlwyn Avenue,
Roundways, West End Lane, Sharps Lane in Ickenham, The Greenway, Hoylake
Crescent and others. Buyers, if not initially aware of HS2 are soon put off when they
find out about it. Surveyors will mention HS2 in their reports. Searches will show HS2
and solicitors will recommend that the buyer is aware of the full implications of HS2
before proceeding, if the property is close to HS2.
125. CHAIR: Can I ask, isn’t it normal these days, if one’s purchasing a house, to get
the people you’re buying off to fill out a form disclosing any information that they may
know which may have an impact, a school being built, and airport being built,
presumably when somebody’s aware of HS2, they don’t put it on the form, potentially,
they can be sued, can’t they?
126. MR GIBBS: Yes, that’s later on, when the purchase is actually proceeding
though.
127. CHAIR: They’re put off before then, yes, of course.
128. MR GIBBS: Yes, they would know about that at the early stages of viewing.
129. MR FOSBERRY: Properties on your books close to HS2, have you found them
totally unsalable, what’s the –?
130. MR GIBBS: Absolutely correct. Houses close to HS2 railway are unsalable at
the correct price. There will always be exceptions, and someone may proceed with a
purchase. But most people will stay well clear.
131. MR FOSBERRY: And would you think, from the point of view of the
construction period, that we’ve got a long construction period, 2026, 27, do you think
that blight will continue for the whole of that construction period?
132. MR GIBBS: Yes I do. Certainly while the construction is proceeding, this is my
opinion, it will exacerbate the blight even more. I hear the build may be a 10 year
process, this is truly horrific for some home owners, while some buyers do purchase on
main roads, on the whole, these are much harder properties to sell, resulting in lower
prices.
21
133. MR FOSBERRY: In my job, what I do on a day to day basis is help my clients
plan their financial futures. Now, obviously, I’ve found it quite exasperating that I
can’t do it for myself because of my biggest asset is obviously caught up in this blight
situation. But the baby boomer generation, later life planning, planning for care costs,
etc, is a major part of what I do now. I see more and more people trading down in order
to release cash to pay for those sort of issues. Have you seen that trend?
134. MR GIBBS: Absolutely. It is quite normal that when children have flown the
nest, that the parents approach retirement, and when the parents approach retirement,
it’s quite normal to consider a downsize. To move to something smaller or cheaper to
run and to have some funds left over in which to enjoy in their retirement. I feel so
sorry for these people who, over the years have struggled to buy their homes, have then
invested further with extensions, new windows, kitchens etc, they’ve done their best
over the years to enhance its value. In most cases, their homes will be their biggest
investment ever. Then, to have all their dreams dashed by the proposed HS2.
135. MR FOSBERRY: Have you, as a business, made any decisions not to take
properties onto your books because of HS2?
136. MR GIBBS: Yes. It is rare for an estate agent to refuse an instruction to sell a
house. You don’t ever want to turn away business, do you? But, I personally would
not want to consider approaching a home within half a mile, or a mile of HS2. And
there are homes just 100 metres or more from it. They are unsalable at the current
price. So, yes, we have politely refused instructions to sell houses. There’s no point in
wasting everyone’s time and money.
137. MR FOSBERRY: Now, this is possibly a more difficult question. You’ve
obviously looked at the HS2 compensation scheme. What are your views about it?
138. MR GIBBS: Quite strong, as I’m sure you’ll think. As I understand it, the
current schemes are terribly inadequate, or the modern word is ‘woeful’. The average
buyer is not going to take the risk of paying full price, and risk buying if the value if
their home will be hit substantially if this scheme goes ahead. There is the possibility
of the investor type of buyer who may proceed if the price is right, and gets something
like a 20% reduction in price. In my opinion, 20% of the home value is the amount of
compensation that should be paid to those with properties close to HS2. Not the £7,500
22
to £22,500. That’s just appalling in my opinion.
139. And for those who pay premium prices for a view, and now finding HS2 are
coming past, even if it is 400, 500, 600 metres away, they should also be considered for
property blight compensation. There are homes situated so close that hits on the
property value of up to 50% could be expected. This is likely to occur in homes of a
higher value. Surely those home owners are entitled to be compensated for the
difference? It is a terrible and stressful time for lots of people. It is such as shame that
there seem to be so many cuts proposed in so many services, and the Government
seems to want to spend so much on this one scheme to increase the flow of even more
people to the south east.
140. MR FOSBERRY: Thank you James. James has already stated, I think in HS2’s
response to my petition, they made the comment that some properties may be blighted;
there is no ‘may’ about it. Properties like mine simply cannot be sold. Nobody in their
right mind would buy my property.
141. CHAIR: The Government are buying quite a lot under the various schemes.
142. MR FOSBERRY: Unfortunately, I don’t fall under any of the direct
compensation schemes because of my distance from the line.
143. CHAIR: No, no, no, you do.
144. MR FOSBERRY: The Need to Sell scheme?
145. CHAIR: Yes. You started off by saying you had health issues and a variety of
other issues.
146. MR FOSBERRY: Yes.
147. CHAIR: Which is one of the material reasons for –
148. MR FOSBERRY: To sell because of my health?
149. CHAIR: You have to make a case.
150. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: If you have a Need to Sell –
23
151. MR FOSBERRY: Why is it not called a ‘right to sell’?
152. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: We’ve been living this for some time. Many
questions in your mind have been in our minds. The Secretary of State has brought
forward, under the title, ‘Need to Sell’, so let’s leave it there. Essentially, if a resident
home owner has a Need to Sell, the advice they should take is to apply under the Need
to Sell, make an application, giving the reasons why they have a Need to Sell. If it’s
accepted, the person doesn’t have to move out straight away. If it’s not accepted, it’s a
different situation, but the thing to do is make the best case that can be made as to why
the reasons are compelling. You may say, and others may think that that is not the way
it ought to be; that is the way it is, it’s better than it was last year when the Need to Sell
scheme wasn’t there, only the exceptional hardship with an urgent Need to Sell. So,
that’s where we are.
153. MR GIBBS: We would argue that should be improved further with more of a
guarantee of a house being purchased, and not going towards a committee who may
grant the purchase rights.
154. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: We don’t yet know what the experience has been of
those who have applied.
155. CHAIR: That’s why we’re going to review the scheme after the General Election
if we’re still all here. We will see how it’s getting on; and it’s a discretionary
Department of Transport scheme, but we will push and nudge and kick, if we have to,
to make sure it’s fairer than the original scheme.
156. MR FOSBERRY: Will the results of that review be publically available?
157. CHAIR: Well, we’re a public body here, and if we’re not happy, you’ll hear very
clearly.
158. MR FOSBERRY: As long as it’s all in open forum, that’s the point.
159. MR BELLINGHAM: You’re being recorded, as we speak.
160. MR FOSBERRY: Good.
161. CHAIR: And what you have to remember is, ultimately, we can write
24
compensation into the Bill.
162. MR FOSBERRY: Right. Just one final point in relation to the nominated
undertakers, I think all house owners require or should be entitled to indemnities from
the nominated undertakers that they will take responsibility for any costs incurred as a
result of damage to our properties structurally or to services as a result of the
construction process.
163. CHAIR: Are you almost finished with your?
164. MR FOSBERRY: Not quite.
165. CHAIR: Okay.
166. MR FOSBERRY: Almost there because I’m going to my conclusion slide.
167. CHAIR: It’s alright. Well, do your conclusions, then we have a private session
with the MPs. I just noticed that the Speaker has crept in.
168. MR FOSBERRY: If HS2 goes ahead, we want dialogue with homeowners;
ensure that the public rights of way are agreed with local authorities, local residents and
officers of the Colne Valley Regional Park; consult on dust and air quality with all
impacted parties and have a truly independent review process; ensure that the utilities
are not impacted, with penalties applied HS2 if they are; guarantee water quality, work
to stop if water quality is impacted because it’s so critical; Colne Valley tunnel to the
M25 to preserve the Colne Valley SSSI; traffic scheme for the area to be subject to
independent review; and, ideally, home owners to be compensated at full market value
should they choose to sell their property back under the need to sell or, what I prefer to
call, the right to sell, scheme. Thank you.
169. CHAIR: Okay. I’m afraid you’re going to have to wait for your response from
HS2 because we’re going to go into private session briefly just to have a chat with the
other Buckinghamshire MPs about how we’re going to be marching through
25
Buckinghamshire. So, possibly 20 minutes, at the most, 30 minutes.
170. MR FOSBERRY: That’s fine.
171. CHAIR: So, thank you very much. Order, order. Can you please to clear the
room please?
Public sitting suspended for a private session
On resuming—
172. CHAIR: Sorry about that. Kept you waiting outside; a bit like being back at
school, Mr Fosberry. What we’re going to do is we’re going to have the response from
HS2 to Mr Fosberry’s petition. Then we will move to Elizabeth Hall, Gary Davis and
David Gauke, MP, after that. And then we’ll get back on the programme, which is then
Sally Cakebread. So, Mr Mould?
173. MR MOULD QC, (DfT): Yes. There was a reference to some concerns about
land contamination at Pynesfield. I’m just going to show you broadly the area you’re
concerned with. It’s the area which is being shown with the cursor now. At West
Hyde. We’re aware of that. Historically, there was some tipping in that area. We have
details of that available on the plan and plainly any contamination that needs to be
addressed as part of the construction of the railway will be dealt with in accordance
with the requirements of the regulations, including, if there is asbestos present, then
clearly there are very strict controls on the handling and disposal of that material.
174. The position with regards groundwater. I think the petitioner actually read out to
you part of the response on that as set out in the petition response document which you
heard earlier from another petitioner that we are in continuing and close dialogue with
Affinity Water in relation to securing the proper protection of groundwater resources in
this area and elsewhere within Affinity Water’s remit. In relation to the various points
are raised by the petitioner about consultation and monitoring on the planning for the
construction work in this area, again, I have referred to the local environmental
management plan regime and I’ve also referred to the traffic management plan regime.
26
I think it might help if I just remind you again one of the points which was made in the
information paper G2, which is dealing with community relations and 3.1 of that
document, which deals with community relations strategy, which the nominated
undertaker will be contractually obliged to develop. And that would include monitoring
and managing contractor and subcontractor compliance with undertakings and
performance of commitments, local agreements and specific community requirements
throughout the project and ensuring that local residents, occupiers, businesses, local
authorities and parish council are informed in advance of works that are due to take
place and are taking place locally. And in practice, that will involve, for example, the
production of advanced information sheets describing the works to be carried out,
explaining the expected affect of the works and explaining the measures to be taken
locally to minimise or to mitigate any adverse impacts. And those will be circulated in
advance.
175. There will be a liaison plan, which will be developed in conjunction with local
authorities, listing, well, it is described here as communication mechanism, which I
think it means help lines and similar. And that liaison plan will be developed in
conjunction with the local environmental management plans and there will be, in the
case of emergency works where less time is available to give advance notice, as much
notice will be given to local communities of the works. So, the idea is that the
nominated undertaker contractually will be required, as part of their contractual
obligations, to give a good notice to local communities of the works that are
programmed in their area; to do so periodically, so people are kept aware of the way the
scheme is developing as the construction takes place. And there will be contact points,
phone numbers, information sheets, which will obviously sit alongside the complaints
arrangements that we told you about in the past. This is designed to be a scheme that
will be exposed to public view in that way. And that will be part of the contractual
obligations which those who are building the railway will have to comply with.
176. CHAIR: Thank you.
177. MR MOULD QC, (DfT): I think that probably covers in a nutshell the points that
have been made.
27
178. CHAIR: Mr Fosberry?
179. MR FOSBERRY: I didn’t hear any mention there anything to do with my
concerns over noise. Noise levels. And the fact that they are above WHO
recommended standards.
180. MR MOULD QC, (DfT): If you’d like me to deal with that, I’m sorry, I’ve dealt
with that on a number of occasions. The predictions for your property are set out in the
pack. And we’ll put that up. The contour is at P5348. And your property is one which
we predict to experience a moderate adverse affect from the operation of the railway.
And if we turn to P5350, our assessment of the existing baseline noise levels are at the
top of this slide; daytime ambient noise at 50 decibels, night time 44.
181. And then the LAmax, which broadly equates, with respect to the gentleman
yesterday, to peak noise levels, highest night time noise there you see at 66. And then,
if we go to the bottom the page, we can see the predictions for the noise impact on your
property of the operation of the railway. From the proposed scheme only, daytime, 57
decibels, night time, 48. A maximum of 70. And then the predicted noise environment
with the scheme as part of the ambient noise levels at the date of operation, we see that
it’s 58 decibels during the day; 50 decibels during the night and that is compared with
the position without the scheme, the baseline assessment, which gives rise to a predicted
increase in noise over baseline at the date, of operation of the scheme of 7 decibels
during the day and 5 decibels during the night. And it’s those increases which give rise
to the assessment your property would experience moderate adverse affect. It’s the
change that gives rise to the impact there.
182. MR FOSBERRY: So, although the environmental statement says that it’s
significant?
183. MR MOULD QC, (DfT): Well, if it is assessed to be significant. It’s a moderate
adverse affect. And that is within the –
184. MR FOSBERRY: Moderate adverse affect –
28
185. MR MOULD QC, (DfT): Yes.
186. MR FOSBERRY: – is significant.
187. MR MOULD QC, (DfT): And the scheme’s response to that, as a matter of
design policy, as I’ve explained to the committee before, is set out in our information
paper E20. It is something that forms part of the commitments that the scheme will be
obliged to fulfil, is that as you are above the threshold of significance, if you will, the
nominated undertaker will be obliged to look at taking steps to seek to reduce the affect
on you. In other words, in this case, to seek to limit the increase in noise insofar as its
reasonably practical to do so. That, in terms, means that he will be looking, as part of
the detailed design, to see whether there are measures that can reasonably be taken at
reasonable cost in order to seek to limit the noise effects of the railway upon your
property.
188. MR FOSBERRY: Will you by telling me about that?
189. MR MOULD QC, (DfT): Yes. That will be something that you will be made
aware of.
190. CHAIR: Yes. Okay? A brief, final comment, Mr Fosberry?
191. MR FOSBERRY: Yes. I think the only point I would like to conclude on is that
for a lot of people we’re not going to get full compensation because obviously if we’re
going to move, we’re going to have to pay things like stamp duty etc. Ultimately,
people who are going into the need to sell scheme etc. are going to pay a price. And I
just wonder how many people sitting around here would be happy to pay two, three
hundred pounds to the erection of a railway system which, for many of us, I won’t be
around when the thing is up and running, we will never use. That’s the bottom line, I
suppose.
192. CHAIR: Thank you. Thank you very much.
29
Elizabeth Hall and Gary Davis
193. CHAIR: Right, we now have Elizabeth Hall, Gary Davis for witness
David Gauke. Right. Welcome to you all. We have visited the area and seen where the
construction compound is. Do you want to start off Mrs Hall or do you want?
194. MRS HALL: Okay, yes. Thank you. First of all also, can I just say thank you for
inviting us today to be able to tell you our little story. I think I’m the first person from
this area. I think I heard a lot about Denham so far. Our little area is very tiny in
comparison and others you’ve seen as you went through. Effectively, West Hyde in
itself is just one long lane, which is the Old Uxbridge Road. The construction site runs
parallel with the length of the whole of this lane, to give you, obviously, the size, as
you’ve seen.
195. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Can I suggest we put up 5410, which will give us?
That shows, I think, what you’re telling us about.
196. MRS HALL: Yes, it does. As you can see, that is the first position. If you could
go to the next slide, A, please?
197. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: You can turn it upside down, don’t worry.
198. MRS HALL: Sorry?
199. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Carry on.
200. MRS HALL: Carry on?
201. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: We’ll reverse it in our minds.
202. MRS HALL: Alright. The address, as you can see, is 2, Colne Cottages. The
above property has been in my family since 1941. The front of the building is believed
30
to be nearing 300 years old. It was an old roadside cafe where riders changed their
horses years ago. And has an old 60 foot brick cesspit to the side of the property under
the garden serving numbers 1 and 2 Colne Cottages. The property has been home to
my grandparents, parents, aunts, uncles and cousins over the years. And I, myself, have
lived there for the last 28 years. Gary and I both work full time – me in facilities fleet
management, which is only 3 minutes away; Gary is working for a logistics company.
From our calculations on the maps, we are 50 metres from the construction site, 275
metres from the Colne Valley viaduct, 900 metres from the Chiltern Tunnel and 325
from the centre line of the track, which is what HS2 says. I’ve had various
correspondence with HS2, although construction is still an issue for me as set out
below. If we do have slide A, yet?
203. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I think it’s the next one.
204. MRS HALL: Yes. Which just shows you the aerial view and, of course, as you
can see, the property there. Can I have the next slide as well, please? And again this is
the view from the top of Tilehouse Lane to my property, overlooking the construction
site. The property is very close to the main construction site, as you can see. And
currently there are no photo montage projections of my property showing this at all.
The construction site view is all we can see from our windows, looking front right and
left. You’ll also see in photos later on that foliage is very sparse on our side of the road.
If we could go to the next slide please? Or slide C? This is the view from the bedroom
windows of the property over the construction site. And the next slide as well, please?
That’s going slightly to the right hand side as you can see the length of the field.
205. MR THORNTON: Just remind me. How busy is that road, the A142? We did
drive along it?
206. MRS HALL: Yes.
207. MR THORNTON: Because we then went up a small lane to the bridge over the
M25.
31
208. MRS HALL: I will go on to more detail on the traffic later.
209. MR THORNTON: You’ll tell us in a moment? Right. Thank you.
210. MRS HALL: I know you’ve had a load of traffic, I know, but this is a little bit
specific to this particular part. If I could go to slide E, please? This is just the entrance
to the front of the property, as you can still see, straight over the field, into the
construction site. And the next slide as well, please? This is the view from the 412.
This is a quiet road and you can clearly see the property looking across to the boundary
the other side which is where the construction site is going to be. And the next slide,
please? Again, this is our side of the road. You can clearly see our garden and the
distance over to the field the other side and see how very sparse the foliage is on our
side of the road. We also only have one tree in front of the property, as you can see.
Also, we are, as you can see, we’re parallel with the construction site. The noise, the
view and the dust will make relaxing in our garden unbearable. Our washing and our
cars are going to be dirty from the dust, which also aggravates a skin condition which I
have. The above cabin also doubles as a studio/summerhouse and for relaxing in the
garden. The future view from this area over a large construction site will be horrible.
Our suggestion, as other people have mentioned here, would be to continue the tunnel
that has been proposed, straight into the M25, rather than coming up in West Hyde at
all, if that’s a possibility.
211. The noise itself. The construction activities from this will most certainly be heard
and will disturb us. The area is generally quiet either side of the rush hour and
becoming even quieter after 7.00 p.m. during the week and into the evening. Weekends
are considerably quieter than that. I do hear sounds from further away which means I
will definitely be able to hear this construction site in front of me. Certainly, over and
above the levels that we normally used to, and having lived here for 28 years, I know
exactly the sounds that I am used to. Sound equipment was initially left at my property
some time ago. Unfortunately, it did malfunction. I am now told that my baseline
levels are taken from two properties either side of me rather than from my property. On
noise, I have a suggestion which we have read. I wanted to know a little more about the
silent reversing beeps, which I believe are called white noise. I’ve also noticed the
32
landscaping and fence barrier request, the latter would be to go further around with no
gap, which I’ll come to later on as well. Vibrations are also a concern with the front of
the property being so old. And, as I’ve already mentioned, I have a large cesspit under
the garden, so I would seek reassurance that this would not be affected, especially, with
cess and possible environment issues which carry quite a heavy weight.
212. The working hours we know will be operational 24 x 7 for the Chiltern Tunnel,
but there are also many other out of hours activities highlighted for other areas within
these construction compounds. The viaduct, which we now know may not be
happening – all these are going to affect us considerably. We both have to hold our full
time jobs and this affect on our sleep and our ability to do this properly. In addition, we
have had issues with the recent closure of the M25 at nightfall road works, which has
brought vehicles queuing outside of our property through the night and stopped us both
from sleeping, which was a real eye opener for us both of what’s to come. If I could go
now to slide J, please? This is a typical day time view at the bottom of the hill over the
A412 when I leave work on a Friday, this sometimes happens on a Thursday as well,
about 3.30 p.m. on a Friday.
213. MR MEARNS: We’ve seen many similar things from other petitioners, Mrs Hall.
161. MRS HALL: You have seen? Okay. That’s fine. If I could just move swiftly on
to the next one then if, which is K? And again you would have probably seen this,
although this is specifically the view from our bedroom window, which is traffic going
slowly in both directions. Slide M, please? And this is the comparison on an normal,
quiet Saturday morning. My full time job, as I’ve mentioned, is 3 minutes away by car.
But, the A412 queues outside the property and over the hill to Denham weekdays and
p.m. It also queues on the A412 turning right up Tilehouse Lane. And this will be
closed, as you know.
162. Thus to avoid the queue on the hill – therefore, I now have to travel to right up
through Harefield and double back on myself, increasing my journey considerably
above to get to work, which is increasingly my journey tenfold. The traffic is also quite
bad and having lost my sick father last year, after mentioning in my petition about him
33
having to go to the hospital, I still need to get up to her regularly to be able to attend to
her after losing my father. View L, please? L. This is a typical view of the Old
Uxbridge Road. The top of the Old Uxbridge Road, near my property, is already busy
with lorries turning and heavy traffic tends to come down into the lane and sleep at
night. Lorries also park here waiting to deliver. They also turn out into the A412
which is already a serious problem. When the M25 is blocked these vehicles back up
along the front and then drivers turn down into the Old Uxbridge Road, flying past my
property, thinking they can get out the other end. When they realise it’s a dead end,
they speed back even faster. This is already having safety issues for us residents.
214. Could we please make a suggestion? We know that all the heavy construction
traffic will be coming into the site via the M25 slip roads. Could it be asked that all of
the traffic came through on these slip roads down straight into the area rather than come
down onto the A412? Especially, with the M25 being blocked and adding to this traffic
which then pushes them down into the lower lane and down past our properties.
215. Could I also go to slide zero, or O, please. I notice here, as you can see the
property here, the bund which is in front of us, I seem to remember seemed to be a little
further over to the right hand side, where the balancing pond also is or was, further
over. I believe from memory that the balancing pond was moved slightly over to the
left when it was asked of Pynesfield to do so some time ago when the HS2 was
supposedly going to be starting a bit earlier and to make way for that, it was moved
over slightly. This seemed to move the bund as well from what I can see, which now
doesn’t take it right in front of the property. I just wanted to ask more about that.
216. Slide P, please. You can see the pond here, which was slightly further over to the
right hand side. The barrier also here, I just wanted to ask a question, as I can see it’s
highlighted in a mauve type colour. I just wanted to make sure, it seems parallel with
the property. I just wanted to find out for sure that these two barriers they seem to go
one higher than the other but don’t necessarily meet in the middle. I just wanted to
make sure that was going to be the case. Could we also suggest here as you can see
right in front of the property there is planting to the left hand side of me, but nothing in
front of my house and as you saw earlier there was only one tree in front of the
property.
34
217. Just to mention on floods, I know this has been touched on earlier, we have the
balancing pond though we just need to know that this will be sufficient for us. We have
had serious problems as you know with sewage and with flooding recently. If this
balancing pond were to overflow this would come straight over the road down into our
property. We’ve already touched on the asbestos so I won’t go over that as well other
than we did find in the reports from Pynesfield, the lab tests, that there was – apart from
the asbestos there was strong odour and gases also to be found. And again we would
need assurance that these airborne asbestos gases and other pieces that will be disturbed
when this is taken away that our health will not be affected.
218. In summary, whilst we’re not opposed to HS2 in principle and we were not
planning to sell at this time we do feel that being this close to two major construction
compounds either side of us, the Colne Valley viaduct and the Chiltern tunnel, both
with overnight accommodation for approximately 250 to 300 workers, plus associated
satellite sites and associated works is one huge building site compound right on our
doorstep. This we believe will affect our quality of life and enjoyment of our property,
and garden most considerably. We believe the above activities are certainly going to
affect us through construction with the 24/7 working of the Chiltern tunnel and the
constant internal travel within these sites and various other out of hours scheduled
works highlighted from for many of the main satellite compounds. We have also
recently been subject to lack of sleep and tiredness whilst working with the M25 closure
as mentioned above, which did affect our ability to do our jobs for that week. Night
construction traffic along the normally quiet A412 at this time will also do the same.
The additional population and overnight accommodation from both sites will also
swamp a small village, which could pose an additional security risk to residents.
219. We adore our quiet little sanctuary and feel this will be lost totally from the
construction, noise/dust pollution and population. Dust being a health issue for both of
us as mentioned in the petition. And sheer size of this huge construction compound in
front of our property is the equivalent of a small county moving into our quiet little
village. This making a completely different place to live, and not the same quiet village
life we have been used to and treasure. In view of the above we really do feel the
enjoyment of our property, quality of life, surroundings and health would be seriously
35
affected. Our surrounding will become completely different and bear no resemblance
to the previous enjoyment for the last 28 years. We feel we are unable to live in our
property during this construction period and continue to function in our full time jobs
properly, especially with me being a light sleeper. And therefore feel we would need to
seek alternative accommodation through construction. I feel HS2 should help us along
with this with temporary housing, or even our rent our property maybe for HS2
executives, it may be helpful to them. This would enable us to move away during this
time. Failing this, and as I feel so strongly, the only alternative would be for me to
sadly put up my family home and lose the family history since 1941, which is not
something I consider lightly. Even if we could sell the property, as it’s being so
severely blighted in the area of West Hyde as has already been mentioned.
220. This whole situation has been thrust upon us through no fault of our own, and we
feel we should be getting more assurance by way of help and compensation from HS2
for the people who hadn’t wanted to sell, and are left in an unbearable situation and
surroundings. We now feel trapped in the sense that we are not be able to move away
or able to sell our homes as a result of the blightedness and value. That concludes…
221. CHAIR: Thank you. Do you want to add anything, Mr Davis, at all, briefly?
222. MR DAVIS: Only the fact that I work in the support industry for the building
trade. I go to a lot of large construction sites during my time, part of my job. I’m now
faced with the prospect that I’m going to be living on a building site. So I’m going to
be on a building site 24/7. I don’t think it’s acceptable for us. I think that we’ve got to
move away or something’s got to help us.
223. MRS HALL: If I could just add one tiny little thing to that, that is the only view
we have at the moment. We have other business behind which we don’t we hear very
much, being behind us, but we also have construction to the right. The only pleasing
view is the field at the moment.
224. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Which you lose.
225. CHAIR: Okay, thank you for that. Your witness, Mr Gauke could you…
36
226. MR GAUKE: Thank you, Mr Syms. And first of can I say I’m grateful to appear
as a witness for Ms Hall and Mr Davis today. Also can I make clear that I’m appearing
in my capacity as a Member of Parliament, Member of Parliament for South West
Hertfordshire, not, for the avoidance of doubt, as a Treasury Minister. And also, as a
further point of clarification, both as a Minister and as a Member of Parliament I am
supporting the HS2 project. My constituency commute from Berkhamsted and Tring,
in my view, will face significant difficulties if there is not an increase in supply over the
next many years, given increased demand. And the commuter service to my
constituents living in Berkhamsted and Tring will deteriorate if something is not done
to increase capacity. Nonetheless, I appear here in support of my constituents. And I
would particularly highlight two issues which have already been touched upon.
227. The first is the impact of the construction compound. My understanding – I say
‘compound’, I think it could well be a number of compounds within this area. And it’s
one of the largest developments along the HS2 route. It is likely to be there for some
time. My understanding is that eight and a half years is the anticipated period of time.
That is likely to have a very significant impact upon those of my constituents who live
in West Hyde. In particular I would make the point that I think Liz and Gary’s house is
the closest to the actual route of the track, as it were. But they’re more than 300m – if
only just more than 300m away from that route. But there are a number of my
constituents who are going to be extremely close to that compound, and that will impact
upon them.
228. And I suppose my purpose today is to make the point that they might not be living
very, very close to the line but nonetheless they’re going to have impact over a long
period of time. And to seek clarity in terms of the compensation that is available and
should be available to people such s Liz and Gary who face significant difficulties as
you have already heard. And one can talk about the dust, the traffic. To come back to
your question earlier, Mr Bellingham, the A412 is really variable in terms of road use.
And as a local resident I very much confirm what you have heard. There are times
where it is very, very quiet indeed and feels more like a country road. There are other
times, particularly when there is disruption on the M25, where it can be extremely busy
indeed. So I would very much support the representations that you’ve heard of the
37
difficulties that will be faced with traffic. And as I say noise and dust, and 24/7
working in this area, is likely to cause considerable difficulty.
229. The second point I would make is more longer term. Which is an issue again
perhaps of clarification. And I’m not sure that local residents have yet had the
reassurance that they probably need in terms of flood risk. It is likely that a very great –
large amount of soil is going to be disposed of along the hills to the north of the A412,
increasing the gradient and therefore increasing the risk of water running off. I’m
pleased that there is a balancing pond contained within the plans. I think my question,
and I don’t anticipate a detailed answer today, but my question really is can we – or
request, can we ensure that that balancing pond is sufficient? West Hyde is prone to
flooding. There was significant flooding in February last year. As you’ve heard
essentially West Hyde consists of one lane with houses along that lane, all at a low
level. There’s a lot of water ponds and so on in the area. And therefore it is susceptible
to flooding. As things stand at the moment I would not want to see that risk
exacerbated as a consequence of the construction there.
230. So those are my essential two points to make. There is going to be a huge amount
of disruption for a small and tranquil village as a consequence of the construction site.
And with a roads infrastructure that is not going to be well suited to additional lorries,
etc., etc. So keen to see that addressed as you’ve heard in terms of noise and dust. And
then the longer term impact. I know you’ve also received evidence with regard to the
asbestos risk. I don’t intend to dwell on that today. But certainly in terms of the
increased gradient will, without mitigating measures, result in a greater flood risk. I
know there are mitigating measures. My question is: are those mitigating measures
satisfactory? So again, can I express my gratitude to you, Mr Syms, for permitting me
to be a witness today on behalf of my constituents who I think have raised perfectly
reasonable points and I hope action can be taken to address the concerns that they have
set out.
231. CHAIR: How many people live in West Hyde. Along the road?
232. MR DAVIS: About 110.
38
233. MRS HALL: Not many.
234. MR BELLINGHAM: So 40 houses we’re talking about?
235. MR GAUKE: About 60 houses.
236. CHAIR: Most of the Denham people were telling me actually it’s directly the
most affected in the area because of that massive construction site.
237. MR DAVIS: Yes.
238. MR BELLINGHAM: And presumably it’s the last village in your constituency.
239. MR GAUKE: Yes, it’s on the very border of the constituency.
240. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: South west by south west.
241. MR GAUKE: Yes. Hertfordshire doesn’t get more south west.
242. CHAIR: I presume, Mr Mould, that construction site there is because there’s
nowhere else you could do it and do the tunnels.
243. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, I think I’ve made clear that’s where – I can
certainly answer the second question which Mr Gauke posed, which is can we ensure
that the balancing pond will be sufficient to provide – to do its job, effectively. And the
answer is yes. We will do that.
244. CHAIR: Did you want to move the balancing pond? Sorry, Ms Hall. You
mentioned the balancing pond opposite your property. Did you want it moved?
245. MRS HALL: What I’d like to know was if it – I seem to remember it being a bit
further along this way, which brought the bund back in front of my property.
246. MR GAUKE: I think it’s the issue to do with the bund, and I think there’s a slight
39
risk that there will be, if you like, two barriers and that there might be a gap in the
middle. Whereas I think at an earlier point the bunds overlapped, thus preventing–
247. MRS HALL: The bund down the pond used to come further to the right.
248. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Can I deal with this?
249. CHAIR: Sorry, you deal with it.
250. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Let me just explain–
251. MR MEARNS: What we’ve got at the moment are a number of plans there. In
terms of where a balancing pond might be, where a pond might be. And if there are
concerns that the balancing pond would flood the road and subsequently Ms Hall and
Mr Davis’s property, could a bund not be a solution to the balancing pond flooding the
road?
252. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The balancing pond will be constructed so that it
doesn’t flood the road. How that is achieved will be a matter for detailed design. But
we are going to build a balancing pond so that it is able to accommodate – do its job to
do a standard, which I think we told you was to the requisite flood risk standard that the
Environment Agency require of us, and they will be responsible under the bill for
regulating us and make sure that we achieve that.
253. But in terms of the interaction between barriers – earthworks and noise barriers,
and other features, so as to provide a measure of noise and visual screening, I can help
you with that. I think it’s probably sensible to look at the final position and then work
back to the construction phase. So if we start with P5417. This is the familiar noise
contour map. And you can see the petitioners’ property outlined in red, and the road
just in front of them, the A412. If we bring the cursor down to the railway line itself, at
this point – if we can take the curser to the left, that’s right. So as the railway is running
down from the – having emerged from the Chiltern tunnel portal, it runs in cutting
along the section that I’m pointing out now. And as you can see the effect of the
earthworks, including a fairly extensive area of mounding that is part of the
40
construction here, is to create a seven to 15m high noise barrier. That’s through
earthworks rather than a fence.
254. Now as the railway comes down towards the start of the viaduct it does come,
momentarily, onto the level, onto grade, and then it goes onto an embankment as it
approaches the viaduct. But as you can see, at the point at which it emerges from the
cutting and comes to grade three metre noise barriers are proposed on either side of the
railway line, to provide noise attenuation. And you can see that the earthwork barrier
and the – overlaps the noise fence so as to ensure there’s no gap in the sound
attenuation that is provided at this point. And so the combination of the earthworks
and the noise fencing is – that’s what’s proposed by way of noise screening. And then
if you forward to–
255. MRS HALL: Could I ask where we’d have the barriers, it says on there, the
drawing said it could be either barriers or landscaping. Which is it?
256. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Here, as I sort of explained, as you’re running down
from the Chiltern tunnel portal initially it’s going to be earthworks, landscaping.
257. MRS HALL: Not a barrier.
258. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Not a barrier. But that will have the same effect as a
barrier because it will effectively – what the seven to 15m shows is the effect will be
that it will provide seven to 15m high noise barrier between the railway and your
property. And then as the railway comes out of cutting and towards the viaduct then the
noise barrier is…We move away from earthworks to the noise fence, which is the three
metre structure that you see there. And the combined effect of those, and the distance
between your property and the railway, is shown on P4519 – well, 4520 is better,
actually, gives you a summary of the effects. The operational assessment you see there,
that’s from 2026 onwards, that’s with the railway running. And you can see that we’re
producing that the effect of the railway will be – there will be a slight change in noise
levels at your property.
259. MRS HALL: Where were these noises levels taken from?
41
260. MR MOULD QC (DfT): This is based on baseline measurements and predictions
which, as I think you said, were from neighbouring properties.
261. MRS HALL: Yeah, so that reference number is from my property, I recognise
that, so it wouldn’t have been from that would it?
262. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yeah. So anyway this is – we’re confident that this is a
reliable basis for predicting noise effects on your property. And you can see that
without the railway in 2020 – sorry the effect of introducing the railway into the
environment in 2026 will be to increase noise levels during the day time, the ambient
noise levels, from about 54 to about 57. And during the night time from about 47 to
about 49. That’s an increase of about two decibels, which as the Committee’s been told
by our expert will be just about noticeable but it will be relatively insignificant. So
we’re not saying that there won’t be – there may be a perceptible change, but it will be
on the margin of what is perceptible. We made clear, we’re certainly not saying to
people that they won’t hear the trains. I just want to yet again dispose of that canard.
263. MRS HALL: I suppose the construction is my main issue, rather than the train
anyway.
264. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yeah. Anyway, so that’s the – now if you turn then to
the visual position, which I know you’re concerned about as well, if we go back to page
5414, which is a familiar slide. We’ve just superimposed on it some cross-sections.
Now if you just see, there’s your property. There’s the mounding and the balancing
pond and the railway in cutting, and we’ve drawn a cross-section looking northwards
along the line of your property. And if we turn to the next page, 5415, we can see that
cross-section. And you can see the effect of the mounding, and also some screen
planting that we’re proposing, both immediately to the south east of the railway line on
the mounding, but also some existing trees. I appreciate immediately in front of your
property the tree line is more sparse. But there is a combination of mounding and
proposed planting which will provide quite a significant degree of visual screening as
you can see.
42
265. MRS HALL: It’ll take some time to take effect.
266. MR MOULD QC (DfT): It will. And as I always make clear to people in your
sort of situation we’re not to be taken as saying that you will not see the railway at any
time. But it will provide, we think a–
267. MRS HALL: As I said it’s not the railway which is the issue.
268. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yeah. So that’s the position. Now then moving back to
the construction position, P5412. Of course there’s no doubt that where you are you’ll
be looking – because you’re looking up towards the construction site that is in an
elevated position you’re clearly going to be aware of and see that site, and it’s going to
be there, as your MP said, for a number of years. But what we expect is that the
earthworks will take place relatively early in the construction, and so you will begin to
experience some degree of visual screening from the earthworks.
269. MRS HALL: Will that bund that’s shown there then come across the front of my
property?
270. MR MOULD QC (DfT): That’s actually not a bund, it’s a material stockpile.
271. MRS HALL: Well, a stockpile.
272. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The location of it, that’s shown – that’s where it’s
proposed to be on our current plan.
273. MRS HALL: Which isn’t in front of the property at all.
274. MR MOULD QC (DfT): No. It’s not intended to be a screening. That is a
stockpile, so it’s intended – it may coincidentally have some screening effect, but it’s
not intended to be screening. We will have – we expect to provide a boundary fence, a
hoarding along the works site. Now clearly, because the land behind is rising that will
only have a limited degree of screening. But it will provide some screening. And as
part of the overall arrangements for seeking to limit the noise and disturbance from a
43
major construction site like this, which was set out in detail in the code of construction
practice, the professed aim and objective through those tried and trusted measures is to
seek to limit the effect as far as we reasonably can. The statutory requirement is to take
best practical means to limit effects. And we’re predicting in your case that the noise
from the construction site will be broadly speaking, at your property, at levels that are
commensurate with your existing noise environment during the day. Which will, I
suspect, largely be set by traffic on the road.
275. MRS HALL: I know you say that but I know what the noise is in my area, and
have done for the last 28 years. I’m pretty sure that it’s going to be different to that.
The swooshing of the 412 is very, very different to construction noise.
276. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Mr Gauke asked about compensation. The project’s
approach is to seek to mitigate the impacts of construction through the operation of the
code of construction practice. As he will know it is – the Government’s position is not
to offer financial compensation for the disturbance which may be experienced during
the construction phase. There are some provisions in the code of construction practice
which provide for sound insulation, and in very exceptional cases for re-housing
temporarily. But the noise levels we’re predicting in this location are very far below
those that we would expect to trigger that. Which hopefully is good news. Because the
closer you get to those triggers the more noisy the environment is going to be. So I
don’t think I can say any more than that at this stage. That would be the approach–
277. CHAIR: How much more traffic outside the home?
278. MR MOULD QC (DfT): How much more traffic?
279. CHAIR: Yeah.
280. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yeah. Let me show you the slide on that. Just put up
P5249. I think the stretch of road we’re dealing with here is D and C. So your property
is just about where the arrow of the D is. And we are predicting that without the
railway construction traffic there will be 5,000 cars and light vehicles going southbound
on that road on a weekday in 2021, and about 6,000 going northbound on that – I’m so
44
sorry, about 4,200 going northbound. About 100 HGVs going northbound, and about
130 HGVs going southbound. Those are the predicted figures based on our assessments
without the railway traffic. The railway traffic adds 257 cars and light vehicles
northbound, daily weekday flows. 460 cars and LGVs southbound daily weekday
flows. 29 HGVs northbound on the same basis, and 32 HGVs southbound. So a
relatively small increase over the then predicted existing flows, both in terms of light
vehicles and in terms of heavy vehicles. And as we explained, detailed arrangements
for traffic management, including if necessary controlling hours of activity, those will
be matters that will be subject of discussion with the Highway Authority through the
traffic management plans, and they will be subject to local community engagement
though the preparation of the environmental management plans which sit beneath them.
281. CHAIR: Can I ask a further question about hoardings? Smart London properties,
people quite often put nice camouflage when they’re doing building work, so it looks
like a house or whatever. And the term ‘hoarding’ can cover a range of things. We’re
talking here several years. Now if you’re in a rural area I don’t think it would matter
too much. But in an area like this which is semi-rural are we talking quite smart things
that blend in with neutral colours that people can – they don’t want it there but – or are
we talking something rather cheap and horrible?
282. MR MOULD QC (DfT): A nasty bit of plywood? We’re talking about the
former rather than the latter. We’re going to – the hoardings will be appropriate to the
area, particularly given that we are talking about features in the local street scene that
are likely to be there for quite a number of years.
283. CHAIR: And would the local planning authority what is put up or do hoardings
come in the plan at all?
284. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The way in which site is hoarded would fall within the
remit of the local environmental plans, I think, and so therefore will be subject to
agreement with local authorities and others. But again the code of construction practice
says – I can’t remember the precise paragraph but the code of construction practice
deals with – foreshadows that contractors will be expected to employ best practice in
terms of features like that.
45
285. CHAIR: This is a very substantial site, and indeed as is the one in Ickenham
where are lot of houses – really the project needs to do what it can do.
286. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Of course.
287. CHAIR: Camouflage as far as possible. Because we’re not talking a short term
use here, we’re talking quite a long number of years.
288. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Particularly so given that we know that whether –
there’s no difference here, under the bill scheme or if ultimately – we don’t think it’s
justified – but if ultimately there were a view that there should be a tunnel we know that
this site is going to be site that is going to be a major construction site.
289. CHAIR: Okay. Ms Hall, anything further you’d like to say?
290. MRS HALL: No. Just to add that we know the construction is going to be the
same, whether it’s going to a tunnel or whether it’s going to be a viaduct. Obviously
the better option visually is going to be the tunnel. The construction’s going to be the
same for us either way, as you can see how close we are to the construction. It’s right,
left and centre out of all of our windows. It will be noisy to us, we’re used to a very
quiet road. And basically I’m in a position where I don’t want to sell but feel that with
this noise I may be forced to.
291. CHAIR: Some of the problem is people get used to noise in their areas, a road or
an airport or something else. We arrive somewhere and they say, ‘Oh, it’s normally
terribly quiet.’ And all we can hear is the motorway going or aircraft going over the
top.
292. MRS HALL: Yes, we have lots of noises but they’re noises that we recognise.
293. CHAIR: Can I ask, just as a further question about construction sites; vehicles
when they reverse, for understandable safety reasons make an awful noise, are we – no?
46
294. MR MOULD QC (DfT): No, that doesn’t happen any more on large construction
sites.
295. CHAIR: It doesn’t. I’m out of date, am I?
296. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Well – no, no, not at all, but I think that – it’s done
through ear pieces.
297. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Miss Hall had a question which I think hasn’t been
answered.
298. MRS HALL: It was just about the beeps that – the normal reversing beeps that
you get on lorries; I believe there is something else that could be used.
299. CHAIR: They’re going to use earpieces. So you won’t have the reversing.
300. MRS HALL: So you don’t hear anything.
301. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Don’t stand behind a lorry if you don’t have an
earpiece.
302. MR MOULD QC (DfT): It may be helpful if I – you asked me about hoardings
and I said I couldn’t remember the paragraph number. Section 5.6 in the Code of
Construction Practice, it has a series of detailed provisions in relation to the standard of
hoardings and one of the things that it makes clear, is that they should be appropriate to
the local situation, and I do want to emphasise, if I may, yet again, people are concerned
that this is a draft document; it’s a draft document that’s only going to go one way, it’s
only going to get better, so this is a minimum standard here.
303. CHAIR: Any final comment to you, Mr Gauke?
304. MR MEARNS: Decorate them with something nice like photographs of the local
MP or something.
305. CHAIR: I don’t think we have a vote on that.
306. MR GAUKE: I think that may have a mixed response. I’m grateful for the
reassurance, first on the balancing pond. I would stress there is already a flood risk that
exists for West Hyde, so if anything, if there is a case that we could say that the flood
47
risk that ultimately is diminished, not increased, then that would certainly be very
welcome. I think your point, Mr Syms, about the fact that this is a compound that is
going to be there for many years, eight and a half years was the period of time that I’m
aware of, there is always the risk of these things expanding. It’s semi-permanent, as far
as local residents are concerned, and therefore, every possible step that can be taken to
ensure that this is in keeping with the natural surroundings would be really essential, I
think, for my constituents living in West Hyde, so I think your question about hoardings
is a very good one and one that I certainly hope to hold HS2 to account on, given the
reassurances that we’ve heard today.
307. CHAIR: And if you don’t want to move, which clearly you don’t because it’s a
family home, then you can’t access the Need to Sell, but if a year after the operation of
the railway, I think it’s true that you can actually serve a notice if it does affect you, and
get some compensation if you can prove that.
308. MRS HALL: Just a year after it’s been up and running? Which is how many
years?
309. MR MEARNS: It’s up to that though. I mean, during the process of the
construction, if you really find it too much, that Need to Sell scheme could kick in, and
you have to make an application.
310. MRS HALL: I understand the Need to Sell scheme, it’s just that the upheaval of
having to have people trawling all the way through the property all the time to see if
you can sell and you’re not going to get the full value for it, it’s something that I don’t
want to have go to, but may have to.
311. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: You can ask the promoters now if they’d accept that
it is a property in a location where they would not be asked to try to sell for three
months. It seems to me if you take the evidence we heard from James Gibbs, the estate
agent, if you’re that close to the work, he wouldn’t even put you on his books. I hope
that some way, if Miss Hall and Gary Davidson choose to apply for the Need to Sell,
that it would be accepted that they are one of those rare properties where showing
actually trying to sell for three months is not required.
312. MR MOULD QC (DfT): On the evidence that you’ve heard today, I can say that
48
there is compelling force in that view, but as you know, that judgment is one for an
independent panel, but I think I can certainly go that far.
313. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Speak to them directly; if you take the evidence
given earlier on by Mr James Gibbs, who is still here, if you find the transcript, add that
to any application you make, I think an independent panel is unlikely to reject it.
314. MR GAUKE: I should also make the point that their property is the closest to the
rail track. There are also other properties in West Hyde that are very close to the
compound and maybe facing similar issues in terms of – I think the issue is
predominantly one of construction, or the impact of construction and that issue applies
to a number of the 60 or so properties in West Hyde.
315. CHAIR: When we did the visit, we met a farmer who lost some land to the M25
who was about to lose some land to HS2, so clearly, it’s a very busy area. Okay, thank
you very much for appearing today. We now move on to Sally Cakebread.
Sally Cakebread
316. CHAIR: Okay, we’ve got you up where you are. The house and some land
around?
317. MS CAKEBREAD: Sorry?
318. CHAIR: Up on the screen, that’s where you are – in front of you.
319. MS CAKEBREAD: Sorry, I didn’t read the map – the map’s quite far away.
Yes, a 45 acre farm in Denham, alongside the River Colne. So I’d like to go to my
slides. Okay, that’s a closer up map. So that shows the boundary of our land, which
includes the river bed of the River Colne and it’s a farm growing maize, 26 acres of
maize. It’s been in my family a long time, not quite as long as the last petitioners, but
nearly. Next slide?
320. So, I just want to talk today as briefly as I can, just a bit of background, some
information about the historical significance of Savay Farm. It’s Grade I listing, the
worshiping circle, the Mosley family’s residence at Savay Farm, briefly, followed by
how HS2 would affect my family. My experience of contact with HS2, then mitigation
49
and lastly the Colne Valley tunnel which I feel would be the best option. Next slide
please?
321. So, I’d like you to have a look at those photographs, photographs of the house,
photographs of old maps, just so you can get a feel of what the house looks like.
322. Next couple of slides, photographs of the house as well. Okay, that’s the River
Colne, on our property. Next slide? That’s Tudor brickwork on our house. Next slide.
That’s the view of a Grade II bridge which is on our property. Next slide. That’s the
view over the field by our house, facing towards the direction where the viaduct would
cross, where that pylon is. Next slide please? That’s the beautiful River Colne in the
autumn. Next slide please.
323. So, in April, a young army officer was help take a court marshal at Wellington
Barracks. While he was waiting, he picked up a copy of Country Life and he fell in
love with the house on the first page, which was Savay Farm. That was my late father,
Frank Cakebread. That thus began our family’s love affair with Savay Farm. He only
saw three rooms because it has been requisitioned in the war. Churchill was a regular
visitor, but nonetheless, he went ahead and bought the house, aged 26, and the farm
which was 122 acres. Next slide please.
324. That’s my father. Next slide please. That’s the house probably in 1930s. Next
slide please. So I’ve lived at Savay Farm all my life. I live there with my family,
including my mother who’s lived there since the late 50s. The farm’s now 45 acres and
is along the west bank of the River Colne. The proposed Colne Valley viaduct is less
than 250 metres from our farm. HS2 has measured it from our house, which is about
300 metres. If you could show the slide – there was a map which I wanted to show,
which shows the position. I don’t know what’s happened to that. I’ve got a hard copy
if you want.
325. MR MEARNS: It’s 535?
326. MS CAKEBREAD: Here it is; it’s this map. It shows the position of our farm
there. The Chiltern Line from Marylebone to Birmingham is situated 500 metres south
of our house. When this railway line was put in in the early 20th century, there was a
huge uproar in Denham. To be doubly hit by two rail lines, ironically going to and
50
from the same place, would be hugely damaging to our property. Next slide please.
327. So, briefly, Savay Farm consists of 12 dwellings; four Grade I listed, five Grade II
listed, including five houses and the 16th century barns. Grade II listed gate cottage, a
Grade II listed ancient bridge over the River Colne, plus two farm cottages. It’s very
rare to find a farm which such an array of listed buildings within the M25. Next slide
please.
328. Okay, before I go onto this, just a bit more about the background. Savay Farm is
the result of two lifetimes of work. My great-grandfather, George Henry Cakebread,
who started a builders’ merchants business, Cakebreads. He was a self made man from
Hackney. Also, my father who was able to buy Savay Farm as a result of his work and
my father devoted his life to maintaining and running Savay Farm. Any my life is now
devoted to preserving Savay Farm for future generations. It’s stood on the spot for 850
years and I hope it will be standing there in another 850 years.
329. Mr Mould said yesterday that the setting of Savay Farm had changed and said it
was not an unbroken rural idyll. I would contest this. All my life, so nearly half a
century, Savay Farm has been a rural idyll. My father sold land which became Savay
Lake. He had losses from pig farming which forced the sale. As a result, we live
beside one of the top three fishing lakes in England. The sun rising in the east over the
lakes every morning, is a sight to behold, and if the gravel hadn’t been dug, we
wouldn’t have that sight. The birds that live on the lake are incredible, herons,
kingfishers, egrets, grebes, rare birds. After the gravel was dug, we were left with the
lake, with fishermen enjoying their peaceful hobby.
330. I’ve travelled a lot, India, Australia, special places around the world but every
time I come back to Savay Farm, I can’t think that anywhere is more beautiful. So, in
relation to this rural idyll, that Mr Mould contests, I would like to ask Mr Mould a very
quick question. Have you been to Savay Farm?
331. MR MOULD QC (DfT): There’s no need to have an argument about this.
332. MS CAKEBREAD: Well, there you go. Seeing is believing. The Select
Committee very kindly came and visited Savay Farm and you’re very welcome to come
again, and I promise you refreshments next time. At least tea and coffee, and a glass of
51
Pimm’s if you’re lucky.
333. Land evolves over time, so you can’t really expect it to be the same now as it was
in mediaeval times when it was about over 300 acres. So, over the years, it has grown
slightly smaller but I believe that the setting hasn’t been altered, and in fact, the lake has
enhanced it.
334. MR MOULD QC (DfT): If it helps to move things on, we in no way, seek to
challenge that the property fully merits its listing as a Grade I Listed Building.
335. MS CAKEBREAD: Okay. So, possible mitigation; as page 2 of the guide to
petitioners, I wish to argue for changes to the route that are within, what could be
described as the broad alignment of the route and I want to try and demonstrate why the
current proposed route would have a direct and special effect on Savay Farm, its
occupants and its place as one of the nation’s heritage assets. Next slide please.
336. So, I won’t go through all of this but just to say that Grade I is a rare listing, it
means that it can be considered internationally important. It’s alongside a lot of other
great houses in the country and I would ask the Select Committee, would you feel
comfortable to put a massive concrete and steel viaduct within 300 metres of, say,
Hever Castle, Dover Castle, Highclere Castle, Castle Howard? Savay Farm’s
acknowledged as one of the oldest manor houses in the country an exception example
of mediaeval architecture. It was built around 1130 to 1150, so it’s 850 years old.
English Heritage has told me that 12th century manor houses within the M25 are
exceptionally rare. Next slide please.
337. That’s a picture of some beans in one of the bedrooms, the mural room. Next
slide please. That’s an old map showing Denham, and the old wood land, and the
Manor of Denham Derdant, which is Savay Farm now. Next slide please.
338. Old map of the farm from the 17th century. Next slide please. Okay, just a bit
more about the history. King Henry VIII used Savay Farm as a hunting lodge. He used
to hunt on Hog Land, which is the land towards Harefield. There was an infamous
murder in our house in 1512. There’s a beam – I don’t know if I put a slide in of it, it’s
on the next slide – which was carbon dated to before Christ, a tree from before Christ.
So, as you can see, it’s got a fascinating history, therefore, I believe it needs preserving
52
for future generations.
339. This means that its appearance from all angles should be preserved, crucially its
unique setting.
340. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I’m just going to interrupt your flow. Westminster
Abbey claims they’ve got the oldest door in the country, which is about 1,000 years old.
If you every get your door dated and it’s older, just go and tell the Dean of
Westminster.
341. MS CAKEBREAD: Oh, it’s not the door, it’s a beam.
342. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: The beam – below it, it’s a door. Which is a certain
age.
343. MS CAKEBREAD: And our front door is ancient. Okay, so please feel free to
ask questions. View from the house would be destroyed to the north were a train line to
be put there. Views of the house from across the lake would vanish. Our quiet
enjoyment of our home would be severely compromised. I believe the house would
probably be almost uninhabitable just from the sheer noise of it. Next slide please.
344. The house has been described as probably the oldest still inhabited in this
country. Obviously, I know probably other houses have been described like this, but
it’s also a fine specimen of mediaeval timber framed house. Next slide please.
345. Now I won’t do too much more about the history, because you’re probably
getting terribly bored.
346. CHAIR: It’s not boring; we’re more kind of focused on solutions than on the
history. Normally, this would be the sort of thing I watch TV programmes on the
Discovery Channel.
347. MS CAKEBREAD: There is an extra dimension to the interest of the house,
making it exceptionally interesting. The fact that Sir Oswald Mosley lived at Savay
Farm in the 1930s. Obviously, you probably don’t agree with his politics; he lived in
Worthing as well. Is that where you’re from?
348. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: He changed his politics. As did Sir Winston
53
Churchill.
349. MS CAKEBREAD: But the context that the Mosley family lived; in fact Cynthia
Curzon, or Cynthia Mosley, she bought the farm. Okay, so I’ve been in touch with
English Heritage, I’ve been in touch with them over several years. I’ve been in touch
with their chairman, he’s now left, probably he was not very suitable, cut out for that
job, but I’ve heard from Richard Peats, the inspector of historic buildings and areas and
he has said that in the view of English Heritage, Savay Farm is a very high significance
as a fine, well preserved example of a 14th century manor house. It’s actually older than
that, but that’s the additions. Domestic buildings of the 14th century are very rare and to
find one this complete is exceptional. Then he goes on to say that the Mosley link is
very important. And English Heritage’s advice to Government is that HS2 would do
great harm to the significance of this building. Next slide please.
350. So, one of our greatest worries is noise. Obviously the visual impact of having a
proposed viaduct, but also noise. Limited measures to soundproof the house are likely
to be possible, according to English Heritage. For instance, it would be possible to fit
secondary glazing. We already have secondary glazing, and it really doesn’t make
much difference. It’s unlikely that English Heritage would consider more dramatic
sound attenuation measures. So there’s very few measures that could be suitable for a
Grade I listed house. They do say that they don’t think that HS2 would be likely to
threaten the structural integrity of the building. I do have concerns about vibrations and
the fact that the walls are one brick thick and that it’s lead light windows, so I’m
worried about that. Next slide please.
351. So, there is a worshiping circle beneath the soil at Savay Farm. Ancient sarsen
stone. The stones are from the same quarry as Stonehenge. So Stonehenge is getting a
road tunnel, I believe, and therefore I think that if HS2 were to be built, the Colne
Valley should get a tunnel too. Next slide please.
352. That’s the information from Knight Frank estate agents about the stone circle.
Next slide please. Have you got any questions?
353. CHAIR: No, all very clear.
354. MS CAKEBREAD: Okay. I’ve been told not to do too much information about
54
the Mosleys.
355. CHAIR: We can read it all anyway. We have a copy of the slides and of course,
we went in your home when we visited.
356. MR MEARNS: We all have copies of all of your slides.
357. MS CAKEBREAD: Okay. Good. So just the point I would like to make is that
Cynthia Mosley was buried on the farm. At the spot where she was buried is a copse,
very beautiful babble of the Colne, where she liked to go and see the bluebells and sit
quietly. The proposed viaduct runs within 250 metres of this ancient wood.
358. Also, there is a graveyard alongside Moorfield Road; not many people know
about this, it’s from mediaeval times, and it’s at the very spot where the proposed
viaduct would cross. I have told HS2 about this burial ground. And that’s the next
slide please. That’s a bit more about the tomb that was designed by Lutyens, but I
won’t go into all that. Next slide please.
359. That’s about the graveyard on Moorfield Road, so it’s the land between
Greenbridge and where the proposed viaduct crosses Moorfield Road. Next slide
please. So, we’ve got a history of farming at Savay Farm, starting with cows, pigs,
moving onto chickens, so we, like all farmers we seek to diversify. At present we grow
maize for cattle fodder on about 26 acres in fact, and we also take hay.
360. In the future, I would expect leisure potential to be an important opportunity for
diversification. The house could be used as a guest house or small hotel. Lodges could
be built on the land, for example; there could be glamping, camping, all sorts of things.
We own the fishing rights along the River Colne, and there is potential for leisure
facilities, fishing, boating, flying, bird watching; these would all be lost in perpetuity
from our estate should the viaduct be built and we haven’t been offered any
compensation for loss of leisure facilities. Should the HS2 Colne Valley viaduct be
built, this would constitute loss of our livelihood, potentially. Next slide please.
361. So, Savay Farm may well be a tourist attraction in the future, although the house
isn’t open to the public, we do show people round sometimes, especially school
children. It’s a house with such history and interest that it easily could be open to the
55
public with an exhibition of say, the Mosleys.
362. So my question is: why should this treasure of our heritage, which has stood on
the same spot for 850 years, why should all this be thwarted by putting a concrete
viaduct 250 yards from it? Americans think it’s madness and I would agree. My auntie
in New Mexico has commented that it’s a vile project, ruining the country side, costing
far too much money for very little return on the investment. I don’t see why any tourist
would be interested in seeing an architect designed viaduct. They’ve probably got
bigger and better ones in their own countries, say they’re from France or China, or any
other country, but what is interesting for tourists in England, is to see fine old buildings
and castles. Next slide please.
363. I won’t go into this, but I was looking for other examples of Grade I listed
buildings affected by HS2. I’m sure you know better than me what is happening with
Hartwell House; I am not totally sure what the situation is there, but my question is what
sort of mitigation is being offered to other Grade I properties along the route? Next
slide please.
364. Impact on our lives: so we live within 500 metres of the Chiltern Line Railway
between Marylebone and Birmingham. There was a huge outcry about the building of
that line, so for us to be positioned between two lines and being a sacrificial lamb twice
in a century is unlucky to say the least. We would not be able to use the HS2 line; we
would have to use the Chiltern Line. Next slide.
365. Working from home: the next slide please. I work from home, I’m at home a lot
of the time, and I do a lot of close work with figures, need a lot of peace in order to
concentrate. Within the last couple of months I’ve had to complain about loud noise
from the recycling plant on Harbour Road, which is over a kilometre away, so four
times further than the proposed viaduct. The noise gave me a terrible headache and that
was from four times the difference, so what would the noise of a viaduct within 250
yards of our house, what would that do? Next slide please.
366. The working hours: HS2 said the viaduct would take four years to construct:
working hours are 08.00 to 6.00 weekdays and 08.00 to 1.00 Saturdays. This would be
devastating on us, because we’re at home most of the time; our lives would be
intolerable due to the construction noise. Having lived in such a peaceful place for so
56
long, it would be impossible to adjust. Next slide please.
367. I’m a very keen tennis player; the tennis court is at the back of the house near
towards where the proposed viaduct would be. The noise would ruin my enjoyment; I
play an awful lot of tennis, several times a week, so do my family, they come over and
play. Okay, next slide is a short film of our current view and the noise, if you could
play that please?
368. CHAIR: Does it work on the system? We don’t have it. You can always supply
it later and the HS2 can send it to us and we’ll have a look when we’re back in our
offices.
369. MS CAKEBREAD: Okay, it’s quite short; it’s just a clip of what the noise level
is at the moment. The noise we have at the moment is bird noise mainly, obviously we
can hear the trains from the Chiltern Line, but they’re not intrusive. We have a lot of
noise from the birds over Savay Lake.
370. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: If I am allowed to give you some help?
371. MS CAKEBREAD: Yes.
372. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I think you need to move past a number of your
pages…
373. MS CAKEBREAD: They’ve been done before?
374. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: So we can get to the points which we can consider.
375. MS CAKEBREAD: Okay.
376. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: At the moment you’re giving us a very interesting
time, but I do think you ought to look to see the things that you would actually ask the
Committee to perhaps consider doing. The essential point I think is the additional
justification for considering a tunnel.
377. MS CAKEBREAD: Okay.
378. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I’m not sure whether this is an area where the
tunnel – at some stage Mr Mould might tell us were there to be a tunnel, which is the bit
57
that would still be in the open air?
379. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The tunnel here would be genuinely underground. I’ll
just check whether we would – no, it would be, because this would be, sorry. If there
were a tunnel any of the tunnels that have been proposed here would mean that the noise
and visual impact on this property would be overcome.
380. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Would go away. I think you ought to stick to
anything that adds directly to our considerations please. So we’ll take for granted the
contact and non-contact with HS2; that’s the past, we’re looking forward, so if you turn
pages together?
381. MS CAKEBREAD: So obviously I’ve lived in the area all my life, and I know
the Colne Valley very well, and I’ve walked it with numerous dogs, so dog walking
would be an activity that would be…
382. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: We’ve got…
383. MS CAKEBREAD: Have you got that?
384. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: We’ve got those, and we accept that the mitigation
is not much or can’t be much if it’s on the viaduct. If you stop at 52 for a moment let
us… This is your direct request, which I think would be a useful thing for you to give to
us.
385. MS CAKEBREAD: Yes. Okay. Just one other point I would like to make is
that HS2 has trespassed on my property; I am not going to make a big deal of it, it was
several years ago, when I asked them to leave they did leave, I just wanted to make that
clear, because they have denied it. Also the point that I was told on the phone by an
HS2 employee that our house wasn’t worth putting on your list when you came to visit
the Colne Valley, which I think is unbelievable really, given that we live on a farm and
it’s majorly impacted by the proposed viaduct. I thank you very much for visiting.
386. CHAIR: The visits are generally done with some input from HS2, but mainly
input from Local Members of Parliament who have suggested where we need to look, so
we do get around.
58
387. MS CAKEBREAD: Okay. With regards to mitigation: obviously the sound
proofing is not possible.
388. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Please accept that we understand those points.
389. MS CAKEBREAD: Okay. Trees are not possible. To finish off: I would like to
just make one other point about my health has suffered over the last five years. I have
had heart palpitations caused by stress, and I have severe headaches caused by stress.
As per the guide for petitioners’ rights of parties, I respectfully request that the Select
Committee consider making an amendment to the HS2 Bill by putting a tunnel under the
Colne Valley rather than a viaduct over it. I request this on the grounds that the current
proposed route would have a direct and special effect on Savay Farm, its occupants, and
its place as one of the nation’s heritage assets. Thank you for your time and have you
got any questions?
390. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: No.
391. CHAIR: We hear from the promoters.
392. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Mr Mould, what do you know about Sir Oswald
Mosley?
393. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I’m not sure I can do very much about Sir Oswald
Mosley, but what I can tell you is, in a nutshell, we acknowledge and have
acknowledged in the Environmental Statement, that this property,. a property of
acknowledged historic value at the highest level in the national register, albeit that it is
reported as having had its historic landscape context to the east affected by the removal
of gravel and the formation of the lakes. Nevertheless the scheme, that is to say the
construction of the viaduct, the presence of the viaduct, and the operation of trains along
it, we acknowledge in the Environmental Statement will detract from its setting, and will
have a major adverse effect on its significance as a historic asset. So that point is
effectively common ground between ourselves and the petitioner.
394. We also have acknowledged that there will be a moderate adverse effect on the
living conditions of the occupiers of this property as a result of operational noise from
the railway, and I can just show you P5362, which in the usual way illustrates that on
59
the contour map. The petitioner’s property is shaded brown denoting a moderate
adverse impact; that arises, as you see from P5364, principally from the increase in
noise levels from the existing as a result of the operation of the railway tracks, an
increase of 6dB during the day and 5dB at night. If you want to remind yourself, as I’m
sure you don’t need to, but if you want to remind yourself of the position as regards
setting, you can probably get that from P5241, which is the familiar computer-generated
image.
395. The Savay Farm is being pointed out now, the point that is made in the
Environmental Statement is that although the area to the east obviously has changed, the
setting there has changed as a result of extraction and the lakes, the public views are
largely to be obtained from the west, and obviously the backdrop to the setting of the
property will be changed considerably by the presence of the viaduct in future years.
The same goes, of course, for the effects on the occupiers of the property as well.
396. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: P5360 for a moment?
397. MS CAKEBREAD: Can I make one point?
398. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Yes?
399. MS CAKEBREAD: HS2 hasn’t been on our property to measure the current
noise, so I don’t know how they arrive at the figures. They haven’t actually been on our
land, so they don’t know what the noise is on our land.
400. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: They haven’t actually been on your land again?
401. MS CAKEBREAD: Unless they took a sneak reading…
402. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: There is an established way of doing these things,
unless you have a reason to challenge what the baseline is let’s accept the calculations
are likely to be about right. The reason I was asking to have this put up is that Members
of the Committee can actually see there is no way of mitigating the view of the viaduct.
It’s a point that has been made, which we accept; everyone accepts.
403. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I also accept that there is unlikely to be anything
further that can be done, given the sensitivity of this building, to mitigate the noise
60
effects. So this is a petitioner and a property, which, for the reasons I’ve given, weighs
clearly in favour of a tunnel as opposed to putting the railway on a viaduct, but there are
other factors, as you know, we think that weigh in the balance against that and are
judgement, as we have explained to you, is that that balance ultimately weighs in favour
of the Bill scheme. Unless I can show any more to you about it that’s the matter for
your judgement when you’ve heard all the evidence from others on this area.
404. MS CAKEBREAD: I would just like to say that the promoter has said in their
response to me, ‘The promoter has sought to avoid direct impact on all heritage assets.’
What went wrong? This is so untrue, we are the only Grade I listed manor house with
masses of listed buildings and a worshipping circle in the Colne Valley, in the whole
Colne Valley. What went wrong with your planning?
405. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Can I just explain what we mean by that, because it
may be there is a misunderstanding: when we say ‘avoid direct impacts’ we mean avoid
actually demolishing or physically damaging. Here the issue is the effect of the railway
on the setting of the listed building, which is conventionally described by those who
work in this field as being an indirect effect. I am not suggesting for a minute that one
should seek to diminish that effect; I have just made clear, I accept, that if it were only a
case of choosing between the impact on this building and avoiding it then the answer is
clear, but there are other factors to weigh in the balance.
406. CHAIR: I understand on Crossrail it was demolishing an ancient barn that they
decided it had to be taken down and rebuilt somewhere else, so if it were directly going
over your property…
407. MS CAKEBREAD: We are grateful that our property is not being demolished.
408. CHAIR: Yes, well, we would then be considering whether it needed to be taken
brick-by-brick somewhere else, so that would be issue we would then consider.
409. MS CAKEBREAD: Yes. I’ve heard that’s happened in Germany, yes. I still
think that it’s the behaviour of philistines to put a viaduct within 250 yards of an ancient
site, an ancient Grade I listed house, and I would like to reiterate my request that a
tunnel be put in under the Colne Valley. There is not just our house; it is the whole
Colne Valley, which I have talked about in my petition – I won’t go into obviously – but
61
it is a number of factors HOAC, the water-ski club, Savay Farm, Savay Lake, which we
are coming to later. Given all those incredibly valuable assets they need preserving, and
I request that a tunnel be put in.
410. CHAIR: Okay, thank you very much for your contribution.
411. MS CAKEBREAD: Thank you very much for your time. Sorry I was nervous,
but I did feel a bit ill.
412. CHAIR: I know it can be a bit daunting. It was very nice to visit your home.
413. MS CAKEBREAD: You are welcome.
Diane Blackwell
414. CHAIR: We now have Diane Blackwell. We have looked at the information.
Good afternoon. I see you have been waiting patiently for your…
415. MRS BLACKWELL: I have indeed.
416. CHAIR: Were you in the group that met us when we arrived?
417. MRS BLACKWELL: I was; I was. I’m sorry, I’m fiddling around here trying to
make sure I’m organised, so I can go as quickly as possible. My story is short you’ll be
pleased to hear. I’m a neighbour of Sally’s; I live on the farm as well. My story is quite
different; I moved to Savay Farm eight and a half years ago when I took early retirement
due to ill health. You are going to have to bear with me. Can I have my second slide
please? No? You don’t have the slides? You said that you had them. It’s a brochure.
418. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I’m sorry, we don’t have any electronic documents for
this petitioner; I don’t know why that is.
419. MRS BLACKWELL: I sent an email saying ‘rouse’.
420. MR BANKES: I asked yesterday evening if we had anything and I was told not.
421. MRS BLACKWELL: Okay. Right, I shall do my best without.
422. CHAIR: You can either carry on, or we can take another petitioner and they have
62
a look and see if they can find the slides?
423. MRS BLACKWELL: I’m here; it’s unfortunate, but these things happen, don’t
they?
424. CHAIR: We have actually seen quite a lot of slides there and we visited there, so
we do know what you are talking about.
425. MRS BLACKWELL: It wasn’t quite the same; I’m not showing the same slides
again, I wouldn’t do that to you.
426. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I would be very happy to have hard copies photocopied
provided…
427. MRS BLACKWELL: I had some very simple maps that illustrated why we
moved to Savay Farm, and my petition is mainly to do with pollution.
428. CHAIR: Let’s adjourn for five minutes and have a chat and see where we go
from here, I don’t want to put you in an unfair position.
429. MR PARTRIDGE: I put up some slides yesterday describing…
430. CHAIR: Some of them could be used?
431. MR PARTRIDGE: I think so. I didn’t include Diane’s house. There is a general
shot of the barns.
432. MRS BLACKWELL: Sally has talked about my house and I love my house, but
I am trying to put across that I live in this area; this is the environment and effect that
the environment has.
433. CHAIR: Okay. I am going to adjourn for five minutes and we can sort this out.
Order, order.
Sitting Suspended
On resuming—
434. CHAIR: Order, order. After that brief break to try and get things together, Mr
Mould, would you just like to start off with a few maps of the area to give a brief
63
explanation before I go to the petitioner?
435. MR MOULD QC (DfT): If we can first put up P5233 please? I’ll start with one
specific, and then we’ll move out to set it in context.
436. CHAIR: Are you searching for it?
437. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Okay. We’ll use the cursor, so on this map Miss
Blackwell’s property is, as she’s told you, neighbouring onto Savay Farm and it’s below
this box here, which I’ve got the cursor on. One of her concerns is the presence of
satellite works compounds on either side of Moorhall Lane, and I’m pointing out those
two compounds to you now.
438. CHAIR: Is it Moorfield Road?
439. MR MOULD QC (DfT): It becomes Moorhall Lane as it…
440. MRS BLACKWELL: Moorhall Road.
441. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Moorhall Road as it goes north eastwards. Another of
her concerns we can get from – so that’s the first point of context. If we then turn on to
– sorry…
442. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: P5382.
443. MR MOULD QC (DfT): 5382.
444. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: That gives us the Moorfield / Moorhall Road you
were talking about just now.
445. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes. Yes, we can see the petitioner’s property and then
Moorhall Road, and although they’re shown with the grey notation, I’m now pointing
you to the satellite compound on the northwest side of Moorhall Road, and the eastern
compound is just below it a bit further towards the road itself just here.
446. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: If we then go to 5257 please. The petitioner’s
property is just at this point here; that’s broadly speaking the petitioner’s property, and
she travels to Harefield Hospital, which is here, and she makes the journey by
travelling--she’ll tell me if I’ve got this right – up Moorfields Road, Moorhall Road, and
64
she turns left onto what is marked as Church Hill, but I think is known locally as
Harville Road as well, and she turns left along that route and that takes her up to
Harefield Hospital as the cursor shows there. Does that give you enough?
447. CHAIR: Alright, would you like to continue now?
448. MRS BLACKWELL: I’m sorry, this might be a little disjointed, but anyway, as
I was saying, if I could go back to the brochure, I’m just showing you this to explain my
condition. I go to the Adapt Project in Birmingham, because I suffer with an inherited
condition called Alpha 1-antitrypsin deficiency, which results in you having COPD,
which I’m sure you all know. I go to the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Birmingham, so
strangely enough I’m very familiar with the train journey.
449. The next map I was going to show was the surroundings I live in to show you
why we moved to Savay Farm; why we thought we had cracked it, we were so clever,
because it just offered everything for us for our retirement, for our health, and my
husband’s work. The map shows how I get to Harefield Hospital, how I pick up my
prescriptions, which I need to self-medicate, so I must keep them. Sorry, slow down.
So I have to go to Northwood, so I tend to use Harville Road; it’s down the road, it’s
very convenient.
450. The last part is an important part of my rehabilitation, keeping so healthy and
well, is exercise. Now I cannot go to a gym, but I can still walk. I can walk down the
Colne Valley; I can walk to the Visitor’s Centre with my dog, very slowly. I can sit on
benches, I can take my time; it’s protected, it’s flat, it’s perfect. It so far has kept me
very well, so I am very healthy.
451. The next part was a Google Earth map, which showed you the area in which I
live in, not just the farm, but it showed you the proximity of Moorfield Road, and I’m
about 330 metres from Moorfield Road, and the promoters have told me – thank you
very much for your response – that there will only be 24 lorries along this road. That is
not many; 20% more than we have now? It is not many, but they are all emitting diesel
and this is my worry. Further on, these lorries are visiting the satellite compounds, and
when they come to build the viaduct across the lakes, they will need cement mix, and
apparently there is going to be cement mix the other side of Savay Lake, behind the
compounds there. We have dust; we have diesel. These are not ideal for me, not for
65
anybody, but especially for people like me.
452. We also have further away, which seems a long way away, Harville Road, we
have the new electrical feeder station, which is being built: again, more lorries, more
dust. I cannot be helped; I am very pleased, and the promoters have told me how they
can control the dust and all the other things, but I cannot believe that – inevitably there
will be more pollution, there will be more diesel and we know that pollution travels.
Wind blows pollution; it does affect a bitter area than you think. We also have a
beautiful lake 850 metres from where I live. I can hear on a windy day the children and
the garden is fabulous.
453. Pollution will be blown across when they’re digging or piling, or whatever
they’re doing, building, constructing. Along Harville Road, Nick Herd, in his response
to the Environmental Statement, reckoned there would be something like 3,200 lorry
movements; each one of these is belching out diesel. I cannot help feeling that we will
get some of this, because one end of Harville Road, which seems a long way away, it
actually isn’t, is really densely polluted and it is going to suffer terribly from the lorries
coming off the A40.
454. This whole area – if you saw it on the map you would see the spokes of a wheel
– I feel that Savay Farm will be living in a construction site. I would be walking and
living, I don’t go to work; this is where I live my life. I don’t leave the area a lot; this is
where I live, not just my beautiful house. Recently a man called Dominic Grieve – can I
have the picture, the cutting from the newspaper if you’ve managed to do that? Yes.
He’s written several articles on diesel in the Sunday Times, the effects it has and how
deadly it is. Sorry, thanks every so much.
455. If I can read you: ‘Scientists are to warn the Government that air pollution, most
of it from dirty diesel, road traffic, may be to blame for up to 60,000 early deaths a
year.’ Alright? So this is frightening; this wonderful fuel that we’re buying, this cheap
and green and all the rest of it: isn’t. He’s written other articles on petrol and how the
diesel…
456. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: That’s enough on that I think please.
457. MRS BLACKWELL: But that is an important point that I’m trying to make; the
66
people in Denham, elderly people, a lot of elderly people that live in Denham. We have
the other side of…
458. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I think if you’ll forgive me saying so…
459. MRS BLACKWELL: You’ll believe me?
460. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Well, you don’t need to say more for us to learn
more.
461. MRS BLACKWELL: Okay, right. As I said, this toxic gas, this NO2, is deadly
to me. I am already ill with COPD, but it can cause it, and Simon Birkett, the man from
Clean Air, is calling for a ban on it. So when I read these articles, yes, I am very
concerned that I will be living surrounded by it.
462. Thank you very much, as I said to the promoters for their response, but their last
paragraph: ‘At the location of the petitioner’s property,’ as I said, I don’t just live in my
property, ‘It is unlikely that there will be significant effect on the air quality from
construction dust or vehicle emissions.’ It’s unlikely not significant, platitudes that
don’t reassure me or make me less fearful of what is coming ahead of us, for – what
were we told – three and a half years. I hope that the air quality will be tested and
monitored continually, because the air quality for lots of people is not the same as I
need, or an asthmatic, or an elderly person, or someone with cardiac problems. I am
hoping that they will test it regularly.
463. MR MEARNS: Could I ask you, Mrs Blackwell, are you aware of any baseline
testing, which has been done in the area that you live recently, because I am very aware
that where you live isn’t too far away, for instance, from the M25?
464. MRS BLACKWELL: No, you are right. When we looked into moving there,
I’m not an expert, I’m only an expert on my lungs, but we were told that this area was
considerably better than the area we last lived in, and we do not have…
465. CHAIR: Where did you last live?
466. MRS BLACKWELL: I last lived on a corner in Northwood, coach traffic,
vehicles, we couldn’t open our windows. It was only a small road, but it’s busy. This
67
has no through traffic as such; this was better for me totally. Sorry, so I think the last
picture I have, which I can’t show you, was where I walk, because I wanted to leave this
with you to show you how beautiful it is and how healing mentally and physically to
walk down the canal, past the HOAC and these beautiful places. I want to ask you to
bury the train, and not me.
467. CHAIR: Okay, thank you. Mr Mould?
468. MR BELLINGHAM: How many years of construction traffic are we talking
about, just to get this into context. I’m sorry I missed the first part of your presentation.
469. MR MOULD QC (DfT): On Moorfield Road we are talking about, as the
petitioner said, we are predicting 21 lorries each way on a daily week day and those
construction sites are going to operate for – just bear with me – for three years I think.
470. MR BELLINGHAM: It’s three years is it?
471. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Four years.
472. MR BELLINGHAM: Just again to recap, after that it returns to the status quo
basically?
473. MR MOULD QC (DfT): That’s right, yes.
474. MRS BLACKWELL: The satellite compounds would disappear?
475. MR BELLINGHAM: Yes.
476. MRS BLACKWELL: No more lorries?
477. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The concrete will not be mixed at those satellite
compounds; it’s going to be batched up at the main compound of West Hyde, which the
Committee has been looking at in some detail over the last few weeks.
478. MRS BLACKWELL: I’m so sorry; I was told that they would need to mix
cement to stick the blocks together, I had no idea.
479. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I can only tell the Committee what I have been
instructed.
68
480. MR MEARNS: You have done a good job of cheering up previous petitioners.
481. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I am delighted to hear that, and brought on to site by
mixer lorries, that is to say ready mixed. We have carried out an air quality assessment,
and our assessment is not predicting any significant deterioration in air quality in the
locality of Moorfields Road and Moorhall Road. The main construction traffic through
this area is to the east, as I think the Committee will be hearing next week, on roads
coming off the M40 and —
482. CHAIR: So presumably where you have a constructions site that is dealing with
tunnelling and everything you need something making concrete and then you would use
that for other parts of the railway, as a centre to try and avoid lorry movements for
bringing in stuff.
483. MR MOULD QC (DfT): That’s the idea, yes. Certainly to try and limit the
propensity for dusty activities to main sites.
484. CHAIR: Okay. What about air quality then, does the local authority test for that,
or do HS2 test for that?
485. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The baseline is that air quality is monitored by local
authorities these days under their legal obligations; that’s been the basis upon which
we’ve made an assessment in the Environmental Statement. As I say, we’re not
predicting any significant deterioration in air quality on Moorfields Road or Moorhall
Road as a result of the lorry movements I’ve mentioned to you. Perhaps that sounds
surprising given the numbers, but under the Code of Construction Practice there is a
monitoring requirement, impact of construction compounds, which is set out in the draft
document, and that will be part of the obligations placed upon the nominated undertaker.
486. MR MEARNS: Any sites locally where there has been testing for particular
measures, for instance on air pollution from traffic, that would be reported to the local
Director of Public Health and that would be public available?
487. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, yes. Yes, exactly.
488. CHAIR: So it may be that air quality doesn’t change very much?
69
489. MR MOULD QC (DfT): It’s not predicted to in the locations that the petitioner
has referred to; that is to say, in the area immediately to the west of her property,
Moorfields Road, Moorhall Road, and the footpaths thereabouts.
490. MRS BLACKWELL: So it’s not going to change considerably or significantly,
but what I was trying to explain to elderly people, people with asthma, it is significant.
491. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Well, the word used in the Environmental Statement is
‘negligible’ i.e. nothing noticeable at all.
492. MRS BLACKWELL: Nothing noticeable, but I will notice it, trust me.
493. CHAIR: Okay, right. Any final comments? I’m sorry that we couldn’t give you
the slides.
494. MRS BLACKWELL: These things happen.
495. CHAIR: You can always send in the picture you wanted us to see to the clerk
and make sure we have seen it.
496. MRS BLACKWELL: Okay. Yes, okay, I will do. Thank you very much
indeed.
497. CHAIR: Thank you very much Mrs Blackwell.
Thomas Bankes
498. CHAIR: Hello, thank you for waiting patiently.
499. MR BANKES: I am the sole owner of Savay Lake; it is a 90 acre site, and I run
it as a freshwater fishery and wildlife reserve.
500. CHAIR: We met you when we visited?
501. MR BANKES: We certainly did, on the bridge.
502. CHAIR: We had a chat, yes, yes.
503. MR BANKES: Absolutely. The key to its natural value it has an excellent
location within the Colne Valley, the Grand Union on one side, with the Colne the other,
70
it makes it like a moat; it is surrounded by water. I refer to my ownership as ‘we’ that is
myself and the lake, plus the many other individuals that have a part in the site over the
years, and there’s a fair few years, it is 60 years. I would like to also mention at this
point that right up until this point there’s never been a planning application, there’s no
ill thought out architecture, there’s no heavy commercial use; it’s escaped it all. It’s 12
miles from the centre of London; that’s got to be fairly rare.
504. CHAIR: The application is the second reading of the Bill.
505. MR BANKES: Absolutely, that’s true.
506. CHAIR: So that was the bridge we walked over from Savay House?
507. MR BANKES: That was it; it was a listed bridge from Savay Farm.
508. CHAIR: We went over it and we looked out across towards the lake.
509. MR BANKES: Absolutely.
510. CHAIR: You were with us then, weren’t you?
511. MR BANKES: Yes, I was, yes. I guess the lake has had one use for 60 years as
a fishery, believe it or not. It’s a huge participating sport in this country; there are 3
million people that do it, it’s a £1 billion industry. I feel the key to the venue is the fact
that it’s retained its identity throughout, it hasn’t gone into other interests; that is a large
part to it. Can I have the next slide please? Okay, the next one to that.
512. That is the actual site; that is Savay Lake. Those are the two areas of the lake
visually that will be affected by the viaduct. If I can move to the next slide? That’s the
actual location of it; there is an OS map showing Denham Station and Savay Farm on
your left hand side, and then the HS2 link to that original railway. The steady curve
from HS2 on a viaduct throughout that length is obviously a fairly staggering bit of
engineering to try and achieve. The speeds they will travel to gain that link; it’s a
considerable achievement, it’s a challenge. I personally think that right from the start,
as all of the petitioners have wished, it would be safer if it was in a tunnel. Can I have
the next slide please?
513. These are maps done by myself; it is quite a large site being 90 acres, but on the
71
left hand side, this is my grievance, is that the supposed compulsory purchase – this is
including the Heathrow Spur, the bottom two crosses, the upper three crosses – that is
five crossing points to my boundary, which utterly fragments it. It will become an
impossible issue of access; I only have one access point, can you point to the uppermost
cross, other end, that’s it. That’s off Moorhall Road, and that’s the only way I can get
into that site; as I say, it’s surrounded by water. Quite improbably, due to the fact that I
can’t actually travel around the entire site by path, because the actual bankside goes into
a lakeside property in the top corner, you have to basically double back, which is a 2km
walk. If this is to be the case that means that I will go over the viaduct or under the
viaduct a possible 10 times on the same site. It borders on an amusement park status,
and it utterly trashes my ownership. I understand the term ‘cast a shadow’ it’s a grim
reality. Can I have the next slide please?
514. It is obviously a slide you have seen a lot today, the one on the left, but it does
depict the way the line falls to the lakes, and that’s absolutely correct. I made this slide
up through my own assessment of the measurements that HS2 gave me, because I need
to visualise what this was going to do to the place that I own. It is quite simple: you
cannot glorify concrete, it won’t happen. There’s the brilliant slide of graffiti earlier on
that absolutely summed it up. As I even heard you mention, there is very little
mitigation you can do with a viaduct, and the only way to do that is to try to get the
tunnel in light of what the London Borough of Hillingdon have suggested, and they do
say that it looks to be only 2% of the cost.
515. Also one point, I don’t know whether you have heard this before, but it would be
interesting to know an exact figure of freshwater that is to be passed over by the HS2
line as a percentage. It is fresh water, and I would imagine, I would be very sure, that it
would be a minute percentage in comparison to land. Therefore, I would have
personally felt that freshwater being what it is, it should be preserved at all costs.
Freshwater is our most precious resource; it should be protected.
516. I will have to say that from the start close to five years ago, I’ve always felt that
the viaduct through the Colne Valley, it has been depicted as an engineering
masterpiece, because there was a number of billboards that I looked at, before I had ever
spoken to an HS2 represented, that depicted this viaduct travelling over the property that
I own. That is a killing scene to me; to go to these meetings, and before I’ve even spoke
72
to them there’s the picture. It hurts. Next slide please.
517. Unfortunately, yes, as regards talks we didn’t get off on the right foot. There
was a surveyor I spoke to, and a week later a representative from HS2 rang us, his name
was Mark Eden, and he used a very poorly selected term, and he asked me whether I
would be ‘happy’ if HS2 could have access. Due to their previous actions I have not
taken that up, and it remains a definite ‘no’ until legal consent is gained. It’s pointless
getting entrenched in the issue, but I was disappointed that in the PRD from HS2 they
stated that the allegation of trespass that I appear to be alleging ‘that the promoter’s
officials have been trespassing at the petitioner’s property. The promoter does not agree
with this assertion.’ That’s where talks immediately break down, because it’s barely
worth saying, ‘I spoke to your surveyor on the phone and he said he was in the wrong.’
It would just make a lot more sense if you just would state the truth on that.
518. MR BELLINGHAM: That person climbing over the wall, who is that?
519. MR BANKES: That’s just the sort of general gauge; that is what you have to do
to get into several properties, and that’s what I imagine when a viaduct is in place how I
am going to be able to traverse my site. As I say, there is a possibility that I will have to
pass under the viaduct back and forth a total of 10 times, certainly five times.
Compared to what it is now, like I said, there is nothing on there; it is absolutely bare as
it is, so that was what that picture was for.
520. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: It is illustrating that you will need to have easy
access to you site?
521. MR BANKES: Desperately, because of the way the viaduct draws, it is right
through my only access, for start, but then it also follows the entire length of the path
over the section that it crosses.
522. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Can I ask if you have had discussions with the
promoters about access to your lake?
523. MR BANKES: Due to the issue with the trespassing, I have to say that I have
mistrust in what they say and it may not help my case.
524. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: It is not a question if it helps your case, the issue of
73
whether it would be helpful potentially to you to have discussions with them in limited
issues like access would be something which you may want to consider.
525. MR BANKES: Absolutely, okay. Can I have the next slide please? If I can
briefly, I won’t dwell on this too much, but the reason I am sat here talking about it is it
is a very, very special lake. It is a very special area of land, you have been hearing it for
the past two days; there is something unusual to it. Therefore I feel very much, in my
words, standing up for it along with everyone else. As Sally says, it was originally
owned by Frank Cakebread, who sold it to the extraction industry, and then this
remarkable combination appears where you mix water, a water table, with an ex-quarry
site to a landscape that is already there; everything benefits. That is worldwide, you add
freshwater to it anywhere, everything flourishes around it, and there is no question it’s a
manmade success; gravel pits are a manmade success.
526. This is where the point as soon as you get a piece of water, as soon as you get a
piece of water in a valley anglers spot it, and the angling community, all the surrounding
area, they set up clubs. The picture on the left hand side, there was a gentleman called
Donald Leney and in the angling world he was nearly a Capability Brown of the angling
world, because he had this wonderful strain of fish, the carp, and he puts them in this
lake. They are very long lived, they last for over 100 years, they live in a weightless
environment, and they are great value. A huge fishing interest has been created by the
undulation, of the way the pit is dug. It has great variant. It’s about surface area - under
water surface area - and also it’s down to the situation in the country, the soils, the pH,
everything’s correct, and also the very important fact that it isn’t meddled with; it’s
consistently kept as a fishery. It’s absolutely vital that fact. With that, the interest
increased greatly, particularly with Savay Lake.
527. Can I have the next slide, please? Due to the lake and the way it was and the
fishing, it bred this realm of enthusiasts and they really did get into it. They absolutely
loved it and they wrote about it. They write magazines. As I say, angling is a large
pastime and it caught on. Yes, absolutely.
528. If we can pass on to the next slide. As to the present day scene, there’s a great
shock. A chap called John Harry is there. I didn’t dare bring him here because he
would way outtalk me in stories of the lake because he has a love for the place - for over
74
50 years - and it has to be special for that to occur.
529. MR BELLINGHAM: How big is that carp?
530. MR BANKES: That’s 54 lb. Yes, 54 lb.
531. MR BELLINGHAM: A big fish.
532. MR BANKES: Absolutely.
533. MR BELLINGHAM: It’s about the same size as him.
534. MR BANKES: Yes. They do last a long time. As I say, they last over a
hundred years and it’s key to the running of it.
535. MR BELLINGHAM: The new generation of fishermen in my constituency in
East Anglia tend to eat them, which isn’t very popular.
536. MR BANKES: No. No, that’s a true fly in the ointment. These do go back in.
537. MR BELLINGHAM: They’re always put back, yes.
538. MR BANKES: They have a great ability to learn. They become educated from
those that fish for them. It’s one of our greatest assets because a lot of the time they
don’t catch much at all, but still the pond is a renowned place.
539. CHAIR: Mr Bankes, I appreciate that actually you live in Ashton Keynes, which
is near the Cotswold Water Park, so you know all about this and clearly you’re very
enthusiastic about it. Could we focus on what you want?
540. MR BANKES: Absolutely.
541. CHAIR: If we can get through the slides quickly. think we need to focus on
solutions.
542. MR BANKES: Certainly. I quite understand. If we could have the next slide.
That actually is land close to Savay Farm. That’s where we stood the other day.
543. If I could have the next slide. That was the interest that the lake has generated
within the angling media, just a small example of it.
75
544. If I could have the next slide. Yes, you had a plan from that. The next slide
after that. This is just to gauge the interest in the lake. When HS2 was proposed, I
organised a handful of events that are held in the winter and we went to three shows and
it was just I was staggered at the interest in the venue. We collected, I think it was,
close to 6,000 signatures in six days. We ran out of paper and pens. I was taken aback
by the interest in it and it surely showed what a great place it was. There was also a
possible 15,000 signatures to the Stop HS2 website as well, all from anglers, and plenty
of them from Europe as well. It’s a well-known place.
545. Slide 14, please, the next slide. I love the term ‘controlled neglect’. I think it’s a
very important term. You don’t meddle with it too much. You just do enough to keep
the balance of a place and that is what that lake has, as with everywhere in the Colne
Valley. It’s a fabric. There’s consistency. There’s about five very large ownerships
that basically own this part of what is going to become the viaduct, but it’s the fact that
it is large ownership that it’s been well looked after. That’s key to it. It hasn’t been
fragmented.
546. If I can have the next slide, please. As I say, 12 miles from the centre of
London. I would like to explain this continuance with the gravel pits there and the
importance to it. Obviously you’ve heard of HOAC. Although it’s not my property, it’s
in the line. We all have an interest in how we look after our properties and HOAC is an
absolutely excellent place. It is the sound of summer to me. There are just hundreds of
kids sounding as if they’re having the best day of their lives to a drum beat at the end of
a day, singing time, to return to a home that’s so much smaller and not the environment
that they’ve been shown, that they’ve been provided with. They’ve been mixed with an
entirely different element and that has to be so important. It’s so close to the centre of
London, but that is key. If that is destroyed it’s just appalling.
547. Number 16, please. The next slide is just buckets and boats, as that’s the way we
do everything down there. That’s the way a lot of the Colne Valley park is dealt with.
It’s not traversed by too many roads. It’s key to it. It does make things longwinded, but
it does preserve.
548. If we could go to the next slide, please. This is hopefully getting up to current
times. This is my whole issue. This is the issue that I really, really do fear about more
76
than any other and it’s a term that I’ve tried to keep right from the start and it’s due to
mass fragmentation. As I’ve said, with larger ownership the quality of the land is kept -
there’s no question - because there’s more governance over that. It isn’t split and what
is said is generally dealt with. Although that is a sound map, I couldn’t find ‘How do
you depict mass fragmentation?’ through that length of the line, but I think that would
cover all aspects of the degrading of the value of the land that it travels over.
549. If I could have the next slide, please. With this mass fragmentation, there is a
term that I started hearing about a decade ago: it was just the term ‘irreversible’. That is
my greatest concern should the viaduct proceed: that it will fall into the realm of the
unwanted. It’s unquestionable that this will happen. After all, what does collect under
viaducts? National Trust guidance is not what I have found. With that, as regards the
venue that I own, the revenue is just immediately lost. You can’t mix the two together;
not sensibly or certainly not to the standard that it is at the moment. With that loss of
revenue, you lose your management funds - and this is just my site, but you treble that,
you quadruple it. It all adds up. This is the state that it will get into.
550. Every year we have issues with fly tipping and you have to constantly deal with
invasive species as well. It’s odd. It’s plants, Japanese knotweed, pennywort and
Himalayan balsam. You think it’s a plant, but it’s quite incredible given the opportunity
for that type of species to take place. It really does get a grip. Pennywort on the Colne
is absolutely extraordinary. It can grow up to, I think it is, around 10 centimetres a day
and it will clog our waterways, hence the flooding last February. Even though the
Environment Agency tries to keep on top of this, it’s just too prolific. It needs constant
attendance. I think that is a major point.
551. Next slide, please. This is the one slide that I find is right about where my
possible realistic nightmare will reside: the picture on the right side. There are a lot of
waterways in this country like this unfortunately presently at the moment and it does
take a lot to keep a value to a place. I find that it’s quite a picture because it’s very true
and it’s seen very regularly. Everything floats in water. If it falls in it floats. Even
from construction there will be quite an amount of it that will float. It’s not a river. It’s
not a bridge over a river. It’s a still water. It’s contained. It’s a water body that can’t
move. It will just blow from one end of the lake to the other.
77
552. I have to say, this was the first time in five years that HS2 actually made me
laugh. Could you actually pull up your slide of P5380? There we go. I received that
two or three days ago and I thought that HS2 are going to cover it in a way that I found
so disappointing. It was almost as if it really wasn’t worth sending to me because that
shows that there’s great ignorance in what is suggested there. You’ve taken poor
advice. Exactly the opposite happens with disturbance: fish are attracted to it.
553. If I could return to my original slide. What happens if a viaduct is to go ahead?
I immediately have serious trouble with the value to my stock. It’s quite extraordinary.
The actual value of the stock, due to the fact that it was stocked by Donald Leney, is
probably close to half the value of the actual land. The stock is worth an awful lot of
money. It’s irreplaceable. It’s like the cornice in this room. It’s like the fireplace over
there. You just can’t get it again. It doesn’t happen. It’s not possible. The picture
that’s supplied by the Environment Agency saying ‘Warning’ is the sign that they’ve
supplied for what has obviously happened on a lot of different venues. It’s big trouble.
My policing of the situation while this is going ahead is that it will become very
impossible. You will be getting aggravation - intense aggravation - over it.
554. Also, interestingly enough, in my deeds for Savay Lake, I understand that it is a
reserve London drinking reservoir so I take it that Affinity Water can pump from my
lake should a drought occur - a really serious drought. I contacted Affinity and they sent
me a letter saying that the mitigation was going to be handled by HS2. I found that
concerning considering the PDF they sent me to do with fish stock. So I hope they will
be sharp on that issue. This is unusual. I happen to know it’s all down to an aquifer that
they’ll pump from. It’s not even in this country. It was done in Florida, where an
aquifer was heavily pumped from to prevent a winter crop from freezing over, and there
were a lot of sink holes. I think sink holes is an issue.
555. CHAIR: Can we get back to solutions for your particular problem?
556. MR BANKES: Certainly. Can I have slide 21, please? Obviously when it
comes to the whole issue, you look into rail lines all over the world, particularly high
speed, and the grief that comes with them. I find this is concerning. I have to say
though that, in comparison, the accuracy and efficiency of tunnelling the line through
mountains and under seas; I watch in absolute, respected disbelief at these extraordinary
78
feats of engineering that ultimately could save this country’s landscape, especially when
there is proven to be only an extra 2% cost to the procedure.
557. Next side, please. It’s not on my point, but it’s just the last slide. The older
gentleman in the slide down there is called Pete Broxup. He’s the man that made it
happen because he was incorruptible. It was a voluntary job passed on from Redlands
Angling. They said that he could bailiff the lake. He did it for nothing and he did since
1980. He has sadly passed away since. Without these people - and there’s a lot of them
in this country - they’re individuals that look after these sites and they keep this country,
good percentages of it, as it is. They’re vital. It’s vital that you have them in place. But
he always said to us, all the time he said, that the lake comes first, the anglers come last.
It’s always the lake first. There are thousands of anglers; there is only one lake. I feel
it’s so important that the land in the Colne Valley that is planned to be crossed is lost
forever because I’m absolutely certain that in a hundred years’ time this vast, gangly,
shining viaduct, the biggest in the land, may well be looked at as a hated, disrespectful
eyesore that could well have been proven to be of very little use at all and, what’s more,
our ethics as to the true worth of the ground that we and the past have trodden on may
be far higher than in these current times.
558. The last side, please. That’s about where it remains. That’s the view over the
Broadwater Lake as it is presently. It’s a big scene. I think we need big scenes to go
and stand in once in a while, which aren’t vandalised by infrastructure. That’s where
I’ll leave it. So my wish is, finally, for a tunnel for the Colne Valley.
559. CHAIR: Okay. You take it as a given that most people want a tunnel. On the
assumption that the Bill at the moment is that there is a viaduct, what we were trying to
get out of you is what you wanted changed so you could get access and continue your
business as best as possible.
560. MR BANKES: That was explained. Yes, I tried to explain this at the start of the
slideshow. I think it was the fifth slide in.
561. CHAIR: The way the process works essentially is that there is a petition, HS2
responds to the petition and that should start the negotiation. Often it doesn’t, but
sometimes it does. Where you have landowners or people with businesses, quite often
they will stand outside in the corridor with a map and say: ‘If you could switch that
79
there, or give us access there, or if you could change that and if you compensate me for
my loss of business, I can continue’. At the beginning of your presentation, you said
first that you haven’t had any discussions with HS2, which is a slight difficulty if you’re
in the process of negotiating. If you can tell us what you want in terms of access to your
property then we can ask HS2 what it can do. All the other stuff is interesting, but I still
do not know what you want.
562. MR BANKES: Okay. What I would like, if a viaduct is going to take place and
it’s going to be compulsorily purchased off me, is that I have access to that land for the
future.
563. CHAIR: All right. Where on your land do you want access? If you could point
it out on the slide.
564. MR BANKES: It’s basically all the land that’s going to be compulsorily
purchased because that’s the only way I can get around my site.
565. CHAIR: Okay. I’m not sure that is a possibility because that’s being taken all
by the line. All right. Let us go to Mr Mould. How can we solve this problem so the
gentleman and those enthusiastic about the lake can get to his land?
566. MR BELLINGHAM: Can I just make an observation? Do some of the
fishermen fish by boat or is it all from the bank?
567. MR BANKES: They don’t. It’s always too much trouble in a boat with
accidents.
568. MR BELLINGHAM: Would they be able to get to the other side of the viaduct?
569. MR BANKES: No.
570. MR BELLINGHAM: They wouldn’t?
571. MR BANKES: This is the trouble.
572. MR BELLINGHAM: They just wouldn’t?
573. MR BANKES: A hundred per cent. They can only traverse it by going under
the viaduct three times to get to the –
80
574. MR BELLINGHAM: You’re not going to lose the water the other side of the
viaduct, but the only way that could be fished is by a boat; in other words, it couldn’t be
fished from a bank?
575. MR BANKES: Literally yes, because the viaduct actually goes through my only
point of access. It would. The only way to get around that site would be by boat.
576. MR BELLINGHAM: I can see the amount of fishing that is going to be lost, but
in terms of the quality of the fishery, how much will be lost?
577. MR BANKES: I would certainly say that if you were to look at sound and a
train every four minutes, it’s a sort of impact that I can’t gauge at the moment.
578. MR BELLINGHAM: Okay. Thank you.
579. CHAIR: You will have to if you want to put in a claim for compensation.
580. MR BANKES: Okay. Well, then I would say that I will lose 50% of my lake,
which is 45 acres.
581. CHAIR: All right. Mr Mould?
582. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Thank you. The brief comments I make are based on
the assumption that the railway goes ahead and, as you said, sir, that the railway is on a
viaduct through here. Mr Bankes of course can maintain his position on those points,
but I think we can still talk to each other with that being understood.
583. As I understand it, his current point of access is from Moorhall Road, broadly
speaking at the point that I am showing with the cursor now. It may not be entirely
accurate, but it is broadly in that location. I am told that we foresee no difficulty in
principle in maintaining access to his property from that point or thereabouts. It may be
that we will have to look at the detailed location as part of the detailed design of the
viaduct through there, but we foresee no difficulty in maintaining access. The question
here for negotiation is to work out, ideally in close collaboration, a plan for the
construction of the railway on viaduct through the northern part of the lake and for the
permanent arrangement, which would involve discussions about possibilities for
restoring to Mr Bankes land that was needed for construction purposes, or part of it, but
81
subject obviously to retaining the necessary rights to maintain, repair and manage the
railway structure in perpetuity. That is something that needs to be discussed. The only
way we can resolve that is by talking to each other. We also need to talk about how we
are going to construct the viaduct as far as we reasonably can so as to enable him to
continue to run his commercial angling operations in the lake.
584. The slide that he showed you which he said he disagreed with, which talked
about the means of mitigating the impact of construction noise on fish, is in fact the
established and conventional approach based on the advice we have from Mr Thornely-
Taylor, who himself has considerable experience of this kind of construction. I am not
going to ask him to come into the witness box now because of the hour, but that is the
basis for that slide.
585. CHAIR: So if Mr Bankes provides some evidence of how the business is doing
in terms of income and the impact of the likely construction then that is a point where
some compensation may be payable?
586. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes. We would like to talk to him about how we can
actually construct the piers that we need to put in the lake because we need to take steps
ideally to enable the fish to continue to occupy the majority of the lake. We will need to
be in the part of the lake that you can see, running across the northern side of the lake,
and we will need to construct the piers to take the viaduct across there and then lay the
track across it. We expect that it will be necessary to construct some form of cofferdam,
something of that kind, locally to those piers. It may be sensible to contemplate, for
example, putting a net across the lake so as to ensure that the fish are kept well away
from the works. This is the kind of thing that we need to talk about so that we can try
and minimise the impact upon him, both of construction and operation.
587. The other point I would make is this. He mentioned that he was concerned about
the increased costs of managing the lake. He was concerned about the build-up of weed
and so forth. He tells you that he is running this, I think, as a commercial operation. He
takes a fee from people who come and fish there. He owns the land. If the effect of
having a railway on viaduct across his lake is to increase year on year the management
costs of running his business then in principle he will be entitled to recover that as part
of his compensation claim. That would be a disturbance claim. These things are often
82
dealt with on a capitalised basis: you work out what the annual increased costs of
management are, you capitalise it on an appropriate basis and then that sum is then paid
by way of compensation. These are all matters that we need to talk about. The sooner,
frankly, we can start talking about them then the better progress we will make. None of
that need prejudice his overarching view that the railway, if it goes through here, should
go through here in a tunnel. We can have that conversation, as lawyers say, without
prejudice to his argument in that respect.
588. CHAIR: I think they can sort your problem, but we can’t do it in the Committee.
You’re going to have to go and talk to HS2, however difficult that is, and sort out a
solution. Mr Mould, can you come back to the Committee, probably after the General
Election, if we’re all here, have survived and are alive, and report back on what happens
as a result of that and if there are any difficulties?
589. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I can. I can certainly report back, yes.
590. CHAIR: Okay. The whole point of the railway should not be to destroy
businesses and people trying to make a living.
591. MR BANKES: Okay.
592. CHAIR: I’m sure that with your experience, knowing that lake as you do, it will
be advantageous if you can have your input so that as much mitigation can be done as
possible.
593. MR BANKES: Absolutely, yes.
594. CHAIR: It may be at the end of it that one can save much of what you’ve got.
595. MR BANKES: Okay.
596. CHAIR: Okay. Thank you, Mr Bankes.
597. MR BANKES: Thank you.
598. CHAIR: We come to the last petitioners, who I think are together, who are
Sylvia Ball, David Crofts and Alexandra Smith.
Sylvia Ball and Alexandra Smith
83
599. MS MCINTYRE: I’m informally helping both petitioners with what they want
to say and so I’ll do a little bit of introduction and then let each of them speak for
themselves on specific points, if that helps.
600. CHAIR: Okay.
601. MS MCINTYRE: We have a slide on the screen at the moment that shows the
petitioners’ property down at West Hyde. You heard earlier on from Liz Hall about the
other end of West Hyde. This is where Sylvia lives, at the other end of the long lane
that was described - so the other end of the construction site.
602. What we want to do is not revisit the themes about the impact of the construction
site that Liz has already eloquently presented to you - we’ve heard enough about that
already today and the matters apply equally to these two petitioners - but we do want to
touch on aspects of those things that are slightly different and that vary a little bit from
what you’ve heard already, particularly from Ms Smith, who lives a little bit further
away in the Maple Cross area.
603. If I could move to our own slide, A994(2), please, the next one, we’ve titled this
one ‘HS2 construction versus West Hyde’ because I think you can see from the red area
on there the field that we’ve been talking about all morning, the area we’ve been talking
about all morning, does give us this real David and Goliath sense and I think that’s
really how all three or even four of the petitioners you’ll hear from this area feel about
what’s in front of them. It is a daunting prospect and whatever way you look at it, as
we’ve heard, they’re going to be left with a lot to contemplate. Ms Hall earlier on
explained the nuts and bolts, if that’s a way of putting it, of the construction sites, but
one of the important areas of this is this road which we’ve talked about a lot - the A412 -
which runs along the front here, directly in front of the petitioners’ properties. That road
is important, not just for local traffic and getting to the shops but really to the whole of
the petitioners’ lives. I think Ms Smith would be the one who would explain that in
more detail really and the extent of the impact, not just from somebody who lives in
front of that site at West Hyde but from further along the Maple Cross area. So
Alexandra?
604. MS SMITH: I’m very nervous. Sorry. I have lived in Maple Cross for
24 years. My house is approximately one mile from the Chiltern Tunnel compound and
84
Chiltern Tunnel portal and is approximately 70 metres as the crow flies from the A412.
We’re just a small area in Maple Cross. The population is approximately 2,000 people.
I chose the locality for the proximity to my sister and family. The journey to her house
in West London is approximately 30 minutes outside of rush hour. I also chose the area
because of the beautiful countryside and the relatively easy journey to London. I love to
walk to the surrounding lakes and canal towpath. Before moving to the area, I travelled
through the area on my journey to work and I simply fell in love with the views. I’m
very happy living here, which makes the arrival of HS2 and its construction a bitter pill
to swallow.
605. Maple Cross, as I’ve already said, is a small community. We have
one convenience store with a Post Office counter, a café, no pub and we do not have a
doctors’ surgery or chemist so we have to travel by car or bus for these services in Mill
End or Rickmansworth and also into Uxbridge, mainly using the 412. We do have two
narrow lanes at the back of our area which take us to the Chalfonts.
606. Since living here, I’ve built up a very good social network in the local
community which I would be very sorry to leave. I am at present working part time to
supplement my pension, but age is against me. My working days are coming to an end.
My worry is that I may well have to downsize to realise capital to finance full
retirement. This will inevitably be during the long construction period. The disruption
to our lovely area, noise pollution and traffic congestion would drastically affect the
saleability of my property, resulting in my property being worth less than the market
value. This point is backed up by a local estate agent.
607. I would now like to go on to the traffic congestion that is going to happen in
Maple Cross and I would like the map, P5254, please. During the closure of Chalfont
Lane to local traffic - Chalfont Lane is going to take the construction vehicles onto the
M25, so it is going to be closed, I believe for approximately five years and six months -
there will be a temporary new road linking Shire Lane and Hornhill Road. The
diversion will take traffic onto Hornhill Road and turn left into Woodland Road. These
are narrow residential roads. Woodland Road is on a bus route - which, by the way, was
omitted from the Promoter’s information that was sent to me last year. This route is the
324. It goes to Mill End and Rickmansworth, Watford and Watford General Hospital, a
very important route for local residents. Woodland Road is used by junior and nursery
85
school children. An access alleyway from Woodland Road takes them into the school,
which is near the junction with the 412. At the junction with the 412, it is always very
difficult to turn in either direction, especially when the M25 is blocked - which is very
often - and traffic always comes onto the 412. I have carried out a survey of the traffic
that uses the Chalfont Lane. I counted 150 vehicles in a one-hour period. At the
junction with the 412, there is a roundabout which helps with traffic flow. At the
junction with Woodland Road and the 412 there is not a roundabout so the extra traffic
is going to cause significant congestion on a road completely unsuitable and it is always
in very bad repair. I would also like to ask that the construction vehicles are banned
from using these roads and core working hours are strictly adhered to.
608. I’m sorry, but I am going to carry on with the traffic on the A412. I know we’ve
heard a lot about it today, but it does really impact on my life. I have to travel into West
London on a regular basis to support my sister and her family. Her daughter has autism
and during the last five years her husband has been suffering bad health. My visits often
involve transporting my niece to appointments as my sister is not a driver. If the A412
is blocked, at present I can take a cut through, but of course during the HS2 construction
this will not be an option as all of these areas are going to be severely affected as well.
As it happens my journey to work would also be affected. I work in Amersham. That is
if I’m still able to work by then.
609. My last point is about air pollution. I’m very concerned about the dust and
health risks to West Hyde and Maple Cross residents. I’m anxious about a friend who
lives on the Denham Way, which runs along the A412. She also suffers from COPD,
like the lady we heard before, and I’m really concerned, as this lady was, that all of the
extra HGVs are going to maybe lessen her life. It will certainly make a lot more work
for those that care for her. Sorry, it wasn’t my last point.
610. CHAIR: There are MPs that do that sometimes!
611. MS SMITH: This is regarding noise. Of course I can’t comment technically on
noise, but I would disagree with the Promoter’s response, which says the scheme is
unlikely to cause an adverse effect. I know how noise travels in my house. When the
wind is in our direction, I can hear the M25 and even fireworks coming from as far
away as Harefield. Can I ask if the HS2 landscape earthworks and landscape mitigation
86
planting is going to be put in place before the compounds are constructed? That’s at the
edge of the Chalfont Lane. That’s to protect Maple Cross from the noise.
612. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes.
613. MS SMITH: Thank you. I would also like to say that in the maps that I was
sent last Friday, which was a bit late - I have to say, all of that information that was sent
was rather too late given that we were here today - I did find some mistakes on there.
One of them is that they called Maple Cross ‘South Harefield’.
614. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I am sorry. We meant no offence.
615. MS MCINTYRE: I think the point is not to pore over a mistake, but it’s to
suggest –
616. MS SMITH: Yes, it’s P5328. There was another one I noticed as well.
617. CHAIR: They were imperfect? All right.
618. MS SMITH: Yes.
619. MS MCINTYRE: The issue about that was really it was extra time taken to try
and work out what the maps were telling us.
620. MS SMITH: We do get a bit forgotten in Maple Cross, but it’s a bit much
calling us South Harefield!
621. CHAIR: Okay. Is that it?
622. MS SMITH: Yes. Thank you.
623. CHAIR: Thank you very much, Ms Smith.
624. MS MCINTYRE: Just to follow up on what Ms Smith has said about the air
quality, there is an answer, we noticed, in the PRDs to all petitioners about air quality
but it refers to information that’s taken from Swakeleys roundabout in Ickenham. We’re
not sure whether that’s just an additional point or whether it was meant to address the
concerns about Maple Cross, but it didn’t make sense to us to have assertions about
Ickenham answering the point.
87
625. MS SMITH: Could I just make one more point? After hearing that they’re
going to mix concrete at West Hyde, is that going to have a big impact on the air quality
in West Hyde and Maple Cross?
626. MR MOULD QC (DfT): No. I am just looking at the very page in the
environmental statement where we deal with potential effects on air quality from the
construction works in this area. Our assessment does not predict any adverse effects in
terms of air quality arising from the presence of the construction site at West Hyde.
This is a site where, as the Chairman pointed out earlier, there is a great deal of
construction activity going on and we will need to make sure that the arrangements for
suppressing dust and so forth, which are set out in detail in the Code of Construction
Practice, are applied to full effect at this site and they will be.
627. CHAIR: I used to work in an office next to a concrete plant and my car twice a
week had to be cleaned as a result of it, but I think things have improved.
628. MS MCINTYRE: Let’s move on then. Can I go back to slide A994(3), please?
We’re going to talk about the compensation schemes, but in order to set the scene for
that I’d like to ask Mrs Ball just to tell us her story and particularly leading on to the
considerations that are in her mind as she is facing the current situation.
629. MRS BALL: Good afternoon and thank you for hearing me speaking. My
neighbours before me have also said about the concerns regarding the noise and the dust
and the vibration and the pollution, which you’ve already heard. I want to reiterate it
also and especially after you saying about the cement being mixed in the construction
site opposite to us. When wind is coming from the south or west, surely there must be
something coming across our properties. How can you say none of the properties in
West Hyde will be not affected when the train is up and running? It runs across our
road and parallel with us. Surely a long tunnel will be better for the environment. The
largest compound construction (sic) for the HS2 is in a field opposite my house.
630. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Can I just ask you to put up for a moment
slide P5331 so we can see where the line is on the bottom left and we see your house on
the upper right. It is a large scale map.
631. MRS BALL: Well, it’s not that far.
88
632. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: It’s close. Thanks so much. Sorry to interrupt you
but it gives context.
633. MRS BALL: The large construction site is opposite my house. As you’ve
heard, there’s contamination in Pynesfield with asbestos. Last year, permission was
refused for gravel extraction on those grounds: of it affecting the air pollution and also
affecting the water table. These are concerns that are bothering us in West Hyde.
634. When there’s an accident on the M25, as you’ve heard, the A412 becomes
snarled up. This happens many times. How can we be assured that the site vehicles will
not be using our narrow lanes? I understand you’re going to construct a slip road on and
off the M25. Would it be possible that between junctions 16 and 17 that the
construction vehicles would have sole use of the hard shoulder? I believe there are
motorways around where hard shoulders are not used. Would that be possible? It
would stop them having problems when the motorway is snarled.
635. CHAIR: Mr Mould answers at the end.
636. MRS BALL: Yes, okay.
637. CHAIR: Are we on compensation?
638. MRS BALL: We’re getting there. Not yet.
639. MS MCINTYRE: We’re scene setting.
640. MRS BALL: As I say, when there is a problem and the motorway is snarled up,
the lorries would be using our lanes and that round there. Old Uxbridge Road and
Coppermill Lane will be used as a cut through for the site constructions. Some while
ago, I counted 600 vehicles pass my house in a one-hour period. If we’re having the
construction site vehicles as well, it’s going to obviously increase it.
641. I understand the spoil from the works is going to be spread over our fields in
front of our homes. You’ve not stated how high and how many tonnes will be dumped.
The construction site is a large area and the water run-off from there will surely run
down the road and the hill, causing flooding in Old Uxbridge Road. I understand you
have spoken about the pond, but I’m the other end of the road. Also, could the water
89
table be contaminated? They extract water from the bore in West Hyde for bottling.
There is also a pipe that runs from Pynchfield Manor, across the fields, across the
construction site, which was pumping water into the Misbourne some years ago, when
the Misbourne was running dry. That is the water that is coming from the bore at
West Hyde. We are having sewage problems down there and they were pumping into
the centre of the road as early as two weeks ago so I don’t think it’s been solved yet.
642. My gravest problem and my concerns is that I’m 77 years old. My husband
passed away last year. I’ve got a four double bedroomed house with a 190-foot long
garden. What assurance can you give me that when the time arises I will be able to get
compensation for my home at the full, un-blighted amount? I want to make the decision
as to when I will go and not be forced to leave my home. I don’t need the stress at this
time of life. I want to be able to sort my finances out so I can control my future care.
643. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: You fall into what I would call ‘age and stage’.
With an application on those grounds it would be surprising, frankly shocking, if it were
not accepted. The other thing, which you may have heard from others, is that with an
application under what’s called ‘need to sell’, but I call it ‘age and stage’, it is perfectly
normal, especially after the sad loss of your husband, if that were accepted, you would
not have to go straightaway, but you would have plenty of time to make a decision as to
where to live next. So I think there is an understanding on the Committee and I think
probably by the Promoter as well, and certainly the panel should understand, that
someone of your maturity and situation does not want to be a full time gardener next
door to a construction site if there are other things you can do with your time.
644. MRS BALL: But I want to make the decision.
645. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Indeed. We’ve got that, but it would need an
application for you to have it bought.
646. MRS BALL: And it’s the hassle of it all.
647. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: That, I am afraid, is unavoidable.
648. MRS BALL: You see, then you’ve got the blight problem which I think with the
position of my property you’re going to look out the front window and you’re
90
immediately looking at the site.
649. CHAIR: But need to sell disregards that and then they would rent the property
out until they sell it after the project has finished, in which case they might make a profit
on it.
650. MRS BALL: Okay.
651. CHAIR: Okay.
652. MRS BALL: I’ll just finish it off then. The homes in West Hyde have already
been blighted. There’s been a bungalow on the market for the last two years down there
and still it has not been sold. I understand that the construction will be active for
between eight and ten years. We will have noise, vibration and dust. It’s the disruption
caused before the train is up and running that will have the adverse effect on the people
living in this area, as well as the train. I’m trying to make proviso for my old age and
HS2 is making it very difficult for me because I haven’t got time on my side. Thank
you.
653. CHAIR: Thank you.
654. MS MCINTYRE: We’ve been talking about the need to sell scheme several
times today and clearly the petitioners are trying their best to respond to things that are
coming up so that we’re not revisiting the same points, but I think the issue that we
really would seek some reassurance on now, understanding that we’re being urged to go
and try the need to sell scheme as part of helping you with a review of it; the petitioners
feel a bit like guinea pigs in that respect, that they have to go and go through the
motions and try it. Yes, they will, but what we would like some reassurance on is, if
they do that, are they in some way jeopardising their position or prejudicing their
position, not in terms of petitioning here but in terms of their property? Are they
starting to introduce artificial disruptions into the local property market by suddenly
going and trying this need to sell scheme? I think we need to think that through a bit
before the petitioners are encouraged to simply go and have a go at need to sell. I think
we would reiterate the point that most of them at the moment don’t need to sell - and
neither of them wants to sell. Like Ms Hall before, the issue is they’ve been feeling
there’s just no alternative. It’s going to be difficult to say what is their case to put to this
91
Committee. It’s not about needing or wanting; it’s having to.
655. CHAIR: Unless you live right next to the line. The thing about the scheme is
that there is no geographical area, but it is people who are affected. So it does give that
option and we will be monitoring it. Okay. Do we have a gentleman coming in to fill
one of the slots in a moment?
656. MS MCINTYRE: We haven’t actually had responses yet.
657. CHAIR: Sorry. Okay, Mr Mould?
658. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Could I just say on that last point, and I hope the
Committee will understand that I say this in the spirit of being constructive, that the
need to sell scheme is of course going to remain open, as you know, until a year after
the railway opens and so there is no pressing obligation on people who don’t feel at the
moment that they wish to make an application to do so. The advantage to them insofar
as their remedy with the Committee of course is that the Committee will cease to sit and
will report well before that date arrives.
659. CHAIR: Hopefully!
660. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: The pressure of our interest will not be there.
661. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Exactly. But the scheme will still be operating and
there will still be an independent panel which will be reviewing cases and there will still
be remedies available because there is a procedure to enable people to reapply and there
is a procedure to enable people to raise a complaint about the way in which their
application has been handled. Although I don’t advocate it, on the final analysis, if
someone feels that their case has been handled really so badly - I hope it won’t happen,
of course, and I don’t believe it will, but if someone were to feel that their case had been
handled so badly, that the scheme simply hadn’t been properly operated - then they
could have recourse to the law.
662. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Also in between, which is why we still have the
single-member constituencies, they can go to their Member of Parliament.
663. MR MOULD QC (DfT): They can go to a Member of Parliament. Yes, I’m
92
sorry. As you know, there’s always a sense of the ultimate. But there are those
remedies available. I say that in the spirit of trying to be reassuring. People shouldn’t
feel that they have to rush to make an application if they don’t want to do so, but as the
Committee has made clear, if I will be allowed to say this, there is obviously an
advantage whilst the Committee is sitting in the fact that it is keeping a close eye on the
process.
664. MRS BALL: You only have three years, do you, if you needed to?
665. CHAIR: No, no.
666. MR MOULD QC (DfT): If you make an application and you receive an offer
then that offer will remain open for a period of three years.
667. CHAIR: And you can reapply.
668. MS SMITH: If you reapply, you have to go through the same process of giving
evidence?
669. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, but in reality, if your circumstances have not
changed significantly then you will be able to say on a reapplication: ‘Look, things
remain as they were when you last considered my application’.
670. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: The difference between the new scheme and
exceptional hardship: exceptional hardship required urgency; the need to sell has the
word ‘compelling’ instead. They can’t come back to say: ‘Look, you didn’t go in the
first three years so it wasn’t urgent’. Urgency doesn’t matter. The compelling reason is
still there. It should be treated the same way as it was before.
671. MRS BALL: Can I say something. My husband had a serious stroke in 2006
and I nursed him. You’re saying the urgency. Supposing 18 months down the line or
something like that I suddenly had a stroke and I’ve got to have permanent nursing care.
Would I fall into a similar thing?
672. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: It would be very surprising. If someone had a
serious change in their health and the home wasn’t suitable, or for health or social care
needs they want to be closer to a friend or relation or a hospital, I’d expect that to be
93
accepted.
673. MRS BALL: Because I’m quite close to Harefield and I’ve got to go there
tomorrow, but also you’re talking about the road. My son uses Chalfont Lane and he’s
nine minutes away from me where he lives. You’re going to be closing that road and
it’s going to take him another half an hour.
674. CHAIR: Shall we go to Mr Mould to answer your point?
675. MR MOULD QC (DfT): There would be a strong case for that being
compelling justification.
676. MS MCINTYRE: I think the additional reassurance we would want is that in a
circumstance like that we wouldn’t have to have the three months of attempting to sell.
677. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I can name three places, yours is one of them,
where if you’re actually beside the construction site and the Committee has heard
evidence from a successful estate agent - who is still here I think - that he wouldn’t take
on a property, that would be almost certainly accepted as a substitute for three months of
active marketing.
678. MS MCINTYRE: Great. That’s reassuring. Thank you.
679. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I am not trying to give business to Mr Gibbs the
whole time!
680. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Can I just put up slide 5334, please? I have selected a
slide that was provided to Mrs Ball. I hope that is helpful. Mrs Ball’s property is shown
with the red outline. This shows the position at West Hyde following completion of
construction and it just shows the bund to the northern side of Chalfont Lane - reopened
by this stage - that will provide visual screening to those living in Maple Cross. It also
shows a bund that will run along the eastern side of the A412 that will be constructed in
order to provide visual screening to those who live to the east of the A412.
681. MS SMITH: That’s the tree line that’s already there, is it?
682. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Sorry. Did I say ‘bund’? I do apologise. It’s planting,
yes.
94
683. MS SMITH: There’s already planting there.
684. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, but this will be to thicken it up. The idea is that
we improve the screening.
685. MRS BALL: So you’re obliterating our view?
686. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Let’s say we’ll try and draw a balance between giving
you some screening from the railway and maintaining your view.
687. MRS BALL: I won’t see the railway because the railway is in a tunnel by then
and I’m further down.
688. MR MOULD QC (DfT): All right. We are trying to draw the balance. So I
draw attention to that. You asked about levels. The area which is in that triangle of
land in the northern part of the former construction site at this stage is an area which is
intended to be devoted to grassland habitat. That is an area where in terms of levels we
expect the levels, broadly speaking, to revert to their existing. The mounding, as you
can see, is going to take place to the south and to the east of that area. I explained that
when I was responding to an earlier petitioner earlier on this afternoon. So that’s the
position with levels. There is a cross-section - slide P5487 - and these are cross-sections
that run along the eastern side of the completed works at West Hyde. They just give
you a sense of the levels where the mounding was located that I showed you on the
previous slide. So that gives you a sense of the degree to which we’re adding/raising the
ground - and the greatest area of raising is in the middle section, which is in that area
just running across the very centre of the West Hyde site - so as to provide noise and
visual screening from the railway to create the cutting. Do you see? All right. So that
is that.
689. You asked a question about whether we could use the hard shoulder of the M25.
We believe that that would be a challenging prospect because it’s discontinuous along
that stretch of the motorway and to create a continuous lorry route along the hard
shoulder would therefore require substantial extra construction works and land take.
Whether there is any room for some degree of hard shoulder running is obviously a
matter that will be for discussion with the Highways Agency, but I’m afraid I can’t give
you any commitment on that. It’s something that would have to be considered.
95
690. I think I’ve covered the points that you’ve asked questions about.
691. MS SMITH: Can I have your comments on the diversion?
692. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The diversion?
693. MS MCINTYRE: The Chalfont Lane diversion.
694. MS SMITH: Chalfont Lane will be closed to normal traffic.
695. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, it will be. That is shown on slide P5335. It is, as
you have said, I think, to enable quite substantial numbers of construction lorries to use
those temporary slips on the M25.
696. MS SMITH: I’m actually talking about the diversion. Because normal traffic
won’t be able to go up Chalfont Lane, you’re putting in a road that links Shire Lane and
Hornhill Road and then all the traffic that normally uses Chalfont Lane will go around
Hornhill Road and into Woodland Road, which are very narrow residential roads and
are not really suitable for taking any more traffic.
697. MR MOULD QC (DfT): On the basis of the traffic information that we have,
based on local baseline traffic figures and our own predictions, we have assessed
whether this will operate satisfactorily given the levels of traffic that we can expect
throughout the construction works and our assessment is that this will operate
satisfactorily.
698. MS MCINTYRE: Can I just ask you to clarify? My understanding was that this
was new to you when you saw this response last week.
699. MS SMITH: Yes.
700. MS MCINTYRE: I’m looking at the date on the map, which is 17 February.
Was this a fairly recent proposal to move traffic round there because it was news to
people who had scrutinised these documents?
701. MR MOULD QC (DfT): No, this was something that was included as part of
the environmental statement so this forms part of the Bill scheme.
702. MS SMITH: How come we’ve never seen it?
96
703. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The map itself was created for the purposes of
responding to your case in the Committee, but the actual information is set out in the
Community Forum Area report, CFA7. If you’d like us afterwards just to point you to
the relevant section, I’m very happy to do that.
704. MS MCINTYRE: That would be fine. I think it’s testament to the difficulty of
dealing with these documents because I know these ladies have pored over them, as we
have, for many months.
705. MS SMITH: My concern is the extra traffic coming down Woodland Road. It’s
already difficult to turn onto the 412 and there’s a school there and there is no
roundabout. It’s going to be horrendous on that road.
706. CHAIR: Can I just make the point that HS2 has to get the agreement of the
county council for these things. The county councils have all sorts of traffic information
as a result of traffic movements so this is not something that unilaterally and necessarily
happens. There will be further discussions. I suggest, Mr Mould, that if you are
concerned, have a word with someone from HS2 outside and see whether there might be
a better solution. Okay? Final comments?
707. MS MCINTYRE: Can I go to slide A994(4), please, just to accompany the final
comments of the afternoon? I’ve put this up to say that you’ve seen dozens and dozens
of pictures of this before, but you’ve never seen one like this before and I’m not calling
it a ‘view’ this time. It’s a landscape. It’s a landscape in the truest form of the word.
This one was painted by the talented lady on my right as a gift for another neighbour.
It’s not a view from her window. It’s emphatically not. It’s a view from Chalfont Lane.
I’m stopping calling it a ‘view’ to remind us that it’s a landscape we’re talking about.
It’s not a fixed thing. It’s not something you look at through trees, which is always the
same or from a single point; it changes. Most of the visual mitigation and other
mitigations that are being put in place seem to treat it as though it’s a static thing that’s
looked at from one point. We feel that that’s inadequate. It doesn’t do justice to the
landscape. It doesn’t do justice to what people will lose.
708. CHAIR: Thank you very much, ladies. It wasn’t too bad a process, was it?
709. MS SMITH: I’m just starting to stop shaking!
97
710. CHAIR: You were getting warmed up there! I thought for a minute we were
going to be here all night! Right, David Crofts.
David Crofts
711. MR CROFTS: Could we show the location of my property, please, which is
slide 5421. In other words, I’m in pole position for a view of the construction
compound and the railway. I live in a late sixteenth century and partly late seventeenth
century house, which my wife and I bought 40 years ago, before there was an M25. We
have a large garden of an acre. We keep some very interesting rare breeds of different
kinds of poultry which we’ve bred over many years, some of them unique. We have a
tennis court, which is heavily used by us and some friends and by my extended family.
I think perhaps I need to go to another diagram, possibly the next one in the pack might
do it. Yes, I think it does. The compound is immediately opposite.
712. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: If you point to your screen, magic will reproduce
it!
713. MR CROFTS: All right. The compound is here, I think, so I’m a couple of
hundred metres away from the edge of the safeguarded area and that’s the location. I
have a question later as to what this safeguarded bit is on the east side of the A412.
That’s new to me.
714. MR MOULD QC (DfT): That’s the landscaping I mentioned earlier.
715. MR CROFTS: I’ll return to that, if I may. I have four points very quickly.
There has been a lot of talk about a compensation scheme and I’m reasonably happy
about that. I’m 75 and my wife is 71. We’ve got a big property, a big garden. It won’t
be long before we can’t handle it, and it’s been explained that that puts us in a really
favourable position, but I have two questions about the compensation scheme. One is
that in the actual application form, there is a sentence: ‘Reason to sell your property…
to avoid a situation of unreasonable burden’. Further on in the document, where it gives
many examples of documentation that you might supply to support your argument, a lot
of them concern one’s broader financial situation and I’d like to suggest that that really
has nothing whatever to do with it and I ask for some clarification on that. The second
thing is I’ve heard a rumour - it is only a rumour - that if it’s necessary, if HS2 were to
98
acquire the property and, as has been mentioned recently, that they’re getting to let it,
there would be a deduction in respect of any expenditure needed to be made to make it
lettable, which in the case of my listed property could be quite a lot. It really isn’t a
lettable property. Those are two questions for clarification on the compensation
scheme.
716. My next point is that on the drawings I was sent last Friday it showed a section
across this here. I can’t imagine how anybody decided that that was the section to draw
- it was certainly not at right angles to the front of my house and neither was it at right
angles to the line between my house and the railway - so I communicated with HS2 and,
to give them credit, they have responded with new drawings which I was given this
afternoon showing different sections, but that now reveals that in order for me not to be
able to see the railway there is going to have to be a 14- or 15-metre raise of the level of
the land between me and the railway. If I look at the drawings of the shape of the
viaducts and various things on slide 5488 - it is not on a good enough scale to see here -
from my property to parallel with the black-marked track, which is the gravel road along
there, is a gap in the bund, if that’s the right word. So I’m not convinced that I won’t be
able to see the railway. Leave that aside. My major concern is not that because I’ll
probably be dead before it’s built.
717. I’m much more concerned with the compound. I’m very close to the main
compound and there is going to be considerable disturbance. My house has no
foundations. They just stood the timbers on the ground and compacted mud when they
built it in 1590-something or 1580-something. The house vibrates every time a lorry
moves along the A412. The windows shake when heavy lorries go along the A412 now.
There is construction work going on now to rebuild or adjust the entrance to Tilehouse
Lane. The construction traffic and the earth-moving machinery is really loud inside my
house and the windows rattle and they are working right on the edge of where the
compound will be.
718. I was interested in the comment about the reversing noise of lorries. Well, the
people doing the construction for this new entrance to Tilehouse Lane certainly are not
using earphones. They’re making one hell of a noise when they go backwards. So
another of my questions will be: can we have a guarantee that these earphone systems
will be used. I find it quite hard to believe that a whole range of subcontractors are all
99
going to do it. However, maybe I’m wrong.
719. My next point is dust. I believe something like four million tonnes of matter
from the Chiltern Tunnel will be deposited immediately in this area.
720. CHAIR: It might even be eight million.
721. MR CROFTS: It might even be eight million if they go the other way as well.
Thank you, Mr Chairman. I don’t know about the land going south, but going north it’s
chalk so it’s going to be mostly chalk. This material is going to be brought out,
temporarily stored in various piles, which are shown in these drawings, and at some
stage in the future this will presumably be used to build up the land by 14 or 15 metres
up towards the railway. We have a southwest facing aspect from me to the compound
and my neighbours also in West Hyde. In dry weather, it defies belief that the number
of movements of lorry loads of chalk going around is not going to create significant dust
and the prevailing wind will bring it towards us. A comment has been made about
various protocols and whatever the word is for systems that are used to control these
things. I just don’t believe it. I think that there will be substantial dust.
722. My final point is about the bund to the compound itself. It has been mentioned
that there would be screening along the A412. I really think that’s completely useless
and I really don’t see why there could not be a bund along either the east or the west
side of the A412 continuously from somewhere north of Chalfont Lane to down the end
where Liz Hall is, on the other end of Old Uxbridge Road. I would specifically like
HS2 to consider doing that and for the Committee to press it. I think a few scruffy trees
or a dense row of scruffy trees - which is what it would be - is not going to protect us
from the noise and the dust and the dirt. Thank you, Mr Chairman. That’s it.
723. MR BELLINGHAM: Just to raise a point, the A412 - the
North Orbital Road - that was basically the orbital road before the M25 was built, was
it?
724. MR CROFTS: Yes. The Old Uxbridge Road was the original main road.
725. MR BELLINGHAM: So the Old Uxbridge Road is to the north of your
property. Then south to the property is what was the old ring road and it is now just an
100
A road?
726. MR CROFTS: Yes.
727. MR BELLINGHAM: I say ‘just’. It is obviously still pretty busy.
728. CHAIR: When you are suggesting a bund, are you suggesting that they build a
bund along the road and plant it for the period of the construction?
729. MR CROFTS: For the period of the construction.
730. CHAIR: You need some security hoardings, but you could put those behind the
bund or something and all people can see is a bank.
731. MR CROFTS: I think something that will protect the village from dust and
noise. Incidentally, I missed one point. I am sorry. If I may just add one thing on
noise. I forgot to say that the sound expert who was here yesterday or the day before,
and I watched on the live thing, made a passing mention to wind blowing noise and
temperature inversion and he said these were effects that would increase the level above
the figures shown and he described them, I think, as occasional effects.
732. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: I’m not sure he quite said that. I think he said the
sound would not be attenuated or reduced. I thought I heard him say that they were
maximum estimates and in many cases they would be lower.
733. MR CROFTS: It would be lower because of inversion?
734. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: No.
735. MR CROFTS: I don’t think so.
736. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: It will be on the transcript anyway so we can
check, but I think what I heard him say was that there were certain conditions where the
sound would not be as high as predicted, forecast or estimated and that the figures that
were given to us were in effect the maximum that would be expected.
737. MR CROFTS: No, I don’t think that’s exactly what he said.
738. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: It will be in the transcript so let’s not argue about
101
it.
739. MR CROFTS: I’d like to just explain the point. The M25, which is a mile to a
mile and a quarter away from my house, when it was built had a concrete surface and it
was quite noisy in West Hyde. Some years ago they put in a blacktop surface and it’s
completely quiet except in cold mornings, when I can hear the M25 clearly inside my
house. I have no double glazing. The local authority doesn’t think I should have it in a
grade two listed house and even if they did it would probably cost me £100,000. West
Hyde is a frost pocket; a well known one. In any direction you go from West Hyde you
have to go uphill, east, west, north, south, any direction, so what happens is you’ve got
frost. Every day when the air temperature is below about five degrees and the air is still,
we get temperature inversion. This is very unusual and I think that this should’ve been
taken into account. I wouldn’t expect HS2 to have known about this, but I think it
should be taken into account because I think the sound propagation is more serious than
they have considered.
740. CHAIR: Thank you, Mr Crofts. Mr Mould?
741. MR MOULD QC (DfT): If I may say so, Sir Peter is right. The scheme
assumed exactly what you have just described, as I understand it. I will check that, but
my understanding of Mr Thornely-Taylor’s evidence was that it assumed the reasonable
worst case.
742. SIR PETER BOTTOMLEY: Not the worst, the reasonable.
743. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, as you have just described. But I will check and
if I am wrong about that, I will make sure that I correct that on the record.
744. CHAIR: Thank you.
745. MR MOULD QC (DfT): If we can put up slide P5424, please. I just want to
deal with the question of noise protection during the construction works. I think it is
important just to note that the main compound for the Colne Valley viaduct is proposed
to be located in the north-eastern corner of the construction site and fairly substantial
earth works will be carried out in order to create the mounding that I mentioned in
response to an earlier petitioner, which will provide permanent noise and visual
102
screening to the cutting as the railway emerges from the tunnel. In those circumstances,
although nothing is guaranteed at this stage, I think it is unlikely that a bund along that
boundary would be a sensible means of trying to provide noise mitigation. It is far more
sensible to look to use fencing to screen out all or substantial elements of the main
construction compound itself and then, as I indicated earlier, perimeter hoarding
appropriately designed and in keeping with the area along the perimeter of the
construction compound. That would be less land greedy. It would probably, I would
have thought, be more acceptable visually and it would actually give rise to less
prospect, to some degree, of dust, I would have thought, because if you’re putting up
mounds along the road there is greater propensity for dust to be created than if you put a
fence there. That is a point, perhaps a small point, that I think is more likely to be the
solution here. What we’re concerned about is output. We’re concerned about
something that’s actually going to be effective. Our position generally is that noise
fencing is at least effective as bunding in terms of providing noise insulation. So that’s
the answer, I think, to that.
746. In relation to the other matters that you raised, we expect and intend that the
mounding along the north-eastern boundary of the railway should provide effective
visual screening. As I said in response to an earlier petitioner, I don’t say that there will
be no views at all of the railway or railway infrastructure, but it is intended to provide
very substantial visual screening.
747. CHAIR: Will the barriers be visible?
748. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Sorry?
749. CHAIR: There is a barrier there, isn’t there, briefly?
750. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes. There is that earthwork, if you remember, and
then as you move towards the viaduct then you have a barrier. So particularly in the
vicinity of the petitioner’s property it will be effectively an earthwork. I think the other
matters, if you will forgive me, have been dealt with earlier.
751. MR CROFTS: Not the need to sell scheme questions.
752. CHAIR: There were a couple of questions about financial information and the
103
need to sell scheme.
753. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Yes, I am sorry. I did have to deal with that. I do
apologise. The answer on the condition of the property is this. The valuation of the
property is based upon its un-blighted, open market value and clearly the condition of
the property is a factor that may affect the value that is placed upon it. I think that’s the
approach that is taken.
754. MR CROFTS: That is not what I asked actually. There seems to be an
inference, or I draw an inference from the documents, that there is some information
required about one’s general financial circumstances outside the specific property, yes
or no?
755. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Sorry. Is that a question for me?
756. MR CROFTS: It’s a question.
757. CHAIR: Mr Crofts was making the point that there is some financial
information requested under the scheme and he is questioning why the people that make
the decisions need all the information they need.
758. MR CROFTS: It asks about ISAs for example. These are examples. Why is it
anybody’s business whether I’ve got an ISA?
759. MR MOULD QC (DfT): The Secretary of State and the Government, in
formulating the scheme, have explained that in order to understand and to make a
judgment about whether there is a compelling reason to sell they require the independent
panel to have a broad understanding of the personal circumstances and the financial
circumstances of the applicant.
760. MR CROFTS: Is that reasonable?
761. MR MOULD QC (DfT): That is the approach that the scheme is based upon and
that is the judgment the Government has made. I would have thought that some might
say that if a discretionary scheme is being put forward, which is designed to give
appropriate assistance to those affected by the generalised blight of the railway, that the
public interest demands that there should be at least a reasonable level of understanding
104
of the personal and financial circumstances of those who are making the application.
That is the way in which the scheme has been drawn up.
762. MR CROFTS: I appreciate the clarification, but at no time has that been
mentioned in any of these meetings.
763. CHAIR: I think in some cases people who need to sell have a compelling reason
because of their financial circumstances.
764. MR CROFTS: Indeed. I understand that.
765. CHAIR: That’s why you need financial information, nut when you’re designing
a form you might ask for financial information for everybody. It’s a bit invidious if
sometimes you ask different things. It’s a bit of a checkbox. But I agree with you.
766. MR CROFTS: I understand that, but I think I’ve just been told something that I
suspected and didn’t like is true.
767. CHAIR: I think it’s a Government scheme asking for too much information
which they don’t need, which no doubt somebody logs and makes a job out of it. All
right. Okay.
768. MR CROFTS: I had another question about the scheme.
769. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I just want to check. I may have taken your questions
in the wrong answer, but I think you did ask about the degree to which the condition of
the property might reflect in the value and I have answered that one for you?
770. MR CROFTS: Not really.
771. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Okay.
772. MR CROFTS: Perhaps you could just expand on it because I’m not sure I quite
understand that.
773. MR MOULD QC (DfT): My understanding was that you were concerned that if
a property was in poor condition –
774. MR CROFTS: No, that’s not what I said. If the property was not suitable for
105
letting. I’m saying that in my case because it’s a listed building, it’s big, but it’s only
got one bathroom, it requires an enormous amount of ongoing maintenance which a
genuine free market buyer would enjoy, as I have, and that would make it more difficult
to let than some house with four bedrooms and three bathrooms that was built yesterday.
775. CHAIR: The value is the value essentially, Mr Crofts.
776. MR CROFTS: That’s my point.
777. MR MOULD QC (DfT): And that was mine.
778. CHAIR: The MP for Stafford has said he’s had a couple of cases where he felt
people were being pressured to reduce the money because the property had to be rented
out. That should not be part of the scheme. It’s a valuation for the property as it stands.
779. MR CROFTS: Thank you very much for that clarification.
780. CHAIR: Or at least that is how it should operate, but we are keeping this under
review.
781. MR CROFTS: I’ve heard stories.
782. CHAIR: Quite.
783. MR MOULD QC (DfT): I am happy to confirm that. That was what I was
intending to convey.
784. MR CROFTS: Clearly if it’s a wreck I understand that, but I’ve spent a fortune
on my house. It’s pristine, but it is an old house. It would be very difficult to let it.
785. CHAIR: You’ll tell all potential buyers your foundations aren’t very good!
786. MR CROFTS: But it’s been there for 400 years.
787. CHAIR: I’m sure it will last a bit longer.
788. MR CROFTS: Thank you very much.
789. CHAIR: Anyway, thank you for also being brief, Mr Crofts. I do think my
initial thoughts are that this area is heavily impacted by the site and I think we are going
106
to need to think of a way where there can be good communication between the
residents, most of whom I suspect will wish to stay providing they can stay and still
enjoy a reasonable life. So talk of environmental airy-fairy bodies covering a larger area
I don’t think is going to be very relevant here. I think we need something a bit more
direct.
790. MR MOULD QC (DfT): It’s an area where I would have thought the local
environmental management plan has an important role to play, which I hope isn’t going
to be airy-fairy. I hope it’s going to be effective.
791. CHAIR: Let’s say we have the nominated undertaker. Somebody is in charge of
that construction site. Presumably, if somebody from that community was delegated to
pick up complaints and maybe have a dedicated phone line – There isn’t a pub, is
there?
792. MR MOULD QC (DfT): No.
793. FEMALE: Yes, there is.
794. MR CROFTS: Yes, there is a pub.
795. CHAIR: There is a pub. Good! Okay, we may go back! Essentially, let’s call
him Mr Smith. There’s a Mr Smith on the construction site, whoever he is, who can
actually communicate with somebody locally so if there’s a real problem, there’s dust,
there are problems with vehicles, that can be communicated very quickly so it can be
dealt with.
796. MR MOULD QC (DfT): That sounds an excellent idea. I agree.
797. CHAIR: Okay.
798. MR CROFTS: I know that Three Rivers District Council, who will be before
you later on in the year, are very keen on this local environment plan.
799. CHAIR: The idea essentially is that if there is a problem to fix it rather than go
through a complaints procedure - because it’s affecting people’s lives.
800. MR CROFTS: Yes, absolutely.
107
801. CHAIR: All right. The end of another long day.
802. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Can I say one thing on that because it may help the
petitioners? I have asked the project to prepare an exemplar local environmental
management plan and what we will do is we will prepare that, so we will fill in that
template if you like, and then we will put that on the website, we will show it to the
Committee and it will give people an idea of what it’s likely to consist of.
803. CHAIR: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr Mould. Thank you, Mr Crofts. At
the end of a long day. Irder, order. If you could clear the room, please, and give us five
minutes to just clear our thoughts.