Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

FRIDAY, 5 JULY 1912

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

60 Ways and Means. [ASSEMBLY.] Ways and Means.

FRIDAY, 5 JULY, 1912.

The SPEAKER (Hon. W. D. Armstrong,. Lockye1·) took the chair at half-past 3· o'clock.

WAYS AJ'\D MEA~S. RESUMPTIO~ oF Co~r:'IIITTEE.

(Jir. J. Studar,1 , Lo[!un, in the cintir.j

Question-

" (a) That the rate of interest on loan n1o:r~eys, raised under 1he_ Government Lo;,n. Act of 1910 ;o.ml the Government Loan Act of 1911, l:.e raised from three pounds ten .:ihillings per centum per annurn to four pounds p{:i' centurn per annum.

"('.) Tha' deb· ntures, r.rrea;,ur:.. billP;> or r.nv oth.Pr forrn of Gov0rD111rnt sccuriti2 \, having .a. currcn<'y not exc··-'d­ing fiye yc<xrs, may bA ir~ 1J·,·d in anticip,1-tion of a 'l.V loan n1onc.' s u:nder any Go­Yornn1ent Lo}ln _\ct ,, 1r~ ady p:ls~ed or any futur-e Government Loan Act"-

to whi,cl l\Tr. Bo•· ':AN had moved an arn ·ndn12nt~

"To or1it in tt0 last Iir2 of rBsc.dution (a) t~o_ \Vord · L)~lr pr UL l.r::/ \Vith a vie\V t0 the ins_ rtion, in th?ir 1-,}ace, of th(- '~~~arch 'thrr::; pO.lll{~.J fiftf-,•n ,hii­Iii''::.·s.' "

-x- :',Jr. \YI::.JSTAI\"LF_-"-_ ((~ ~- ·ttrm): l-I0 ,,~_,uld Iik--' to 1nak ... a. fc\v ren1.,rks before the ques­'c;on was pd. It eeemed to him that from the Ylrv cc-nn:•nc.:H'".:.lt of this d '1)ate-ar-;d ho had· liste>:cd ~o .it v en can :'ul!v-th~ t thH Gov~,rnn1ent >vere tryin~: to ju,,tif:,: thern­sclv,, s in t'vo po1,itions ·which ~-;ere oppoE.ite. In the first plac··, t~1ey saiJ that th<ey were in cas:'r circurnstances~ ,'.tTIL~ 'vere in no diffi­culty about the money, as th0y hacl quite suflicient loan n1onev to earn: on for the nExt tw~lvo 1n0nthc'. 0~ the other hand, it \Va~ quite eiident from the resolutions which had been brought in that there was a very great anxiety on the part of the Government to get thc·.0 J re>olutions through and to get the loan money; Ow, or other of two things was correct: 8lth-'r that tho Government had plenty of money, and were not at nrosent roa11:: f''JDCPrnod ahouf i·he loan 1narket, or othenvisG Wf'ro up ag·al ;,t a stone \Vall, and WPr0 com·,;ellr d t 1 go in the Joan n1arket whether they wanted cr not. 'The Premier· had R"iven a )toad deal . f nsc-ful and intNPst­ing information; lvt c )uld be quito affable when he liked. just :>s on other occasions he could spit fir!' all round. On the other hand, tho Treasurer had evidently me.de up his mind that not even wild horses were· ,<wing to draw information from him that this party wanted before thev were pre­no red to· let the resolutions "go throug-h. 'While the information given was interesting ar:. l useful. it was really not to the point: it was not what th"'Y wanted to know. Wb"'t they 'vantr<l to know \va '-. 'vhat th0rc- was in the~ shape of balances to Joan acvonnt, and ho\v hr th<; GovDrnmcnt wem able to go on' with Jheir pre,ent public ,-orb policy in· cas~ th~ n1oney 'vas not a Yaila hie, or th,~· markf>t was not in " fit state to approach· the London moncv-l<:>ndu:: at th0 nrcs•mt time. Thov cortc:inlv had no> had that dir<'ct information g·i;'en to thr~, and that ·was rt-uliv the pain( on \vhic~, \On1e infornut­tion ought to ha'~.~E' been r ~vPn, and upon which sume information r.1'o-ht h;:vc been p-i~ :)n ~t the Yer;: first, but : h? Govc~rnn1cnt

Ways and l~Iea1u. [5 JT)LY.] Ways and 11Iwns . 61

. had been trying to keep it awav both from the I--iouso and fro1n the publiC. ~A good deal had bE:'t.:n said about their as.jots and about t~e buoya~cy of the revenue, and all that krnd_ of thmg, but nobody ever questioned t~-e buoya_,ncy of ~he revcn~le rrt the present trn1o or the eurnrng capac1L· of the mone'~.T .that had been im·csted. Thcv were ail well r,ware . that they were exp~riencing prosperous ~rnws at pres:-.nt. They mi:;:r ht than!< Prondence for the Jato rains, for prenous to their advent there was no ques­tion about it that the country was on the ed1':'e of a preripice, and had they not come both the country and the people as well would ha,ve b£Bn in rather a queer position. At any ra~e, that had relieved the position

·tc. " certam e·-:tent, and he did not think anybodv qm ,tioned the ability of th€

.country to pay ini ~rost on the 1nOney which hod been borrowed. But ut the scuno time there was a li1nit- ,,-~ t'J v;hat it c mlcl pay in tlic shape of inte: cs;t; and let hi~:1 l>ay that. ''he never an,' thing '\Vas said in thrs connet:bon fro1n this side thcv were g-enerally replied to bY !he· old ]ibe of "stink~n:c:- fish." Not onl.v that, but '''hen in­

·formatwn to which the House and tho countrv "as entitled v c,s sought, r' reply like tha't ,~-as both un[eiKro;Is and unkind, for the sunpl€ nason that It was untrue. He made bolU to s=\3' thr:t nE'mbers on this :,_ide had the intc>r,•"t and welfare of the countr, Rt hr<? rt just as much as thG.'18 on the Other side. By nothing J·bat the-y had done or said could it be sho·- n to the contrar-· and it "as quite uncalled for thaJ; v:her: the Opposition asked for information to which it . as c ntitled in the interests of the country their requc st should not be f:ivcn attention, and they had to try to get it in a round­alDut way. If the countrv was in a smell­£u1 condition and an ut:· ;Your~, odour was attached to it, who was it that' was respon­sible for it? 1t >\~a, t-h' r J.rb· ~o ~;:·hL h th8 Tro~'Surcr said hn b-lon,,·ed, t nd to v;·:_,_ich lv~ no dm1bt th"'~Iyht it an ho~10u .. '·J lr 1 '!ne.

r:i'L J Trr_.ASUR:;_ 1 : I-L-ar, hear !

Mr. WINSTANLEY: It was not the par~_,. which he (Mr. Winstanley) belonged to, It was the party o;1posite which brought it into that condition, a condition which was en bad that £von the Premier helped to shift thFJTI fl·orn the suns:1ine of th; 'rrcap.n~y h.:~ncb' 9 into the cold shac~c~S of Opposition. s'a that 'f there ever had been ·· time in the histo1y of the Governn1ent when there V'JS

an uJr,?t.vour;v Sinell about it, then it was at that time, and it was entirely uncalled-for for tlw Tn ·'"'"rer to try to attach to the Labour p·'rt\· anything in the shap~ of ervin.,­"stinking fi 'h." As an Opuosition the~ were entitled to the fullc .t inforrmction. A good deal of information was given, but it w .<s not the exact information that w>cs wanted. It was not really what they wanted to know. Even now they found from what was subsequently said by the Premier, that even if this Bill went through, and even if they got the money, whether it was obtained at. 3~ per cent. or 4 por cent., it was only gomg to help them out of a temporary diffi­culty. It was not going to see them very far at the best, for the reason that the Premier pointed out; it would only see thmn through the present financial year. ~hat was not long in the history of a State; him Queensland. No one knew what would take place by that time. In past years some methods had been adopted that he did not think either the Premier or Tr€asurer would

adopt in connection with their own private businesses. They would not run their private businesses in that way, and yet they had been wild and extravagant in spending State money for some time past. When a railway policy was laid down, and an extensive loan policy as well, it w::ts a reasonable thing to expect that some m'lthod should be adopted whereby unforeseen ci1·cumstances might be provided for, but it was doubtful if the Go­vernment had made provision for the un­foreseen circumstances with which they were faced at the present time. Wh<ln they were discussing tl)e £10,000,000 Loan Bi!; tY.o yt:.us ago, the Treasurer stated that borrowing £10,000,000 ·,yould help the conv'r.sion of the loans which were falling due. It was rather a strange ars;u1nent to us0" but it as us~.::,d nevertheless. But it seemed that no pro­vi•:ion whatever was made fo1· the unfore­seen contingencies that were matcrialising at the present time. Something had been said about the offer of the Federal Govern­ment to lend the QUfensiand Government some money. While he (Mr. \Yinstanley) made no pretence whatever at being a finan­cier, he thought that even although it might htn •' hc·en a little more exp0nsive to obtain a loan fran the Federal Gov<":nment at 3:\ per co:1t., inst€ad of going on the London market, he thought tho example and influence of borrowing- from the Commonwealth would haYc been much better. Thev found that since that offer had be.~n ma'cle that the Queensland GoYernment had ao·npted a loan of £1,000,000 from the Commonwe:thh Go­vernment, to be repaid in twelve rnonths, but whatever the Treasurer thought .lbout that a: a bu•;inoss proposition, it seemed to him (l':lr. Winstanley) that it was a bt:.d thing to borro·:· money to use it to pay interest on other bo.rowed monev. \Vhat would the Treasur'.l' say as head' of the Works D0part­ment if ."e>moone borrowed £ .;QJ under the provic,ions of the vVorkers' Dwellings Act. then borro\v·- d 1nonev fro1n ~"omowhere el:n to pay the int·~r -st o~ it? IIB v.-oulc1 not be inclined to j._.ncl him a further in•ht!ment if he t .~n1e for a further loan. The Hon. th0 Treasurer w:~s familiar with the saying that the borrower was the F ~rvant of the lender, but the wichd borro". eth and paycth not again. If the proposal to increase the rate of int · ••. ,t to 4 per cent . .-.-ould apply only o thi·· loan, h· · could understand it, but the h·oub~e 'vaP_ as ... they knov1, that once theJ raised the rate of inter est it would be a difiicult tJsk to get it down P 5ain. The incrcarcd rate was not only going to affect the £2,5C:\f'l0 loc~n, which th,, Pre1nier ;men­tioned he V\ J.nted novv, but it '; ould affect all future borrowins·. They knew that £15.0CO,OOO of loan money 1.as falling due in the very nP.u future, and the increased rate would affe0t the oonv..:rsion of thoc.) loans rnuch rnoro than appeared on the sur­face at the present time. On another occa­sion the Premier had something to E.ty on the qu8stion of borrowing. Spenking in Brisbane recentlv, he stated that if borrow­ing ceased, then public works would also have to cease. \Vhen tho Great 'YV estern railway was introduced, the Opposition pointed out that it wa' a mistake to enter upon such a large railway policy, and evi­dentlv the Premier had come round to their 'va ,- Of thinkins now. In a r,_,cent speech in Brisbane the Premi<lr said-

" He ·;c·ou!J a: keep on with the good work of Ckvolr;pn1ent so long as .John Bull will let you have money. In G~cat

ilfr. Winst,w1ry.J

62 Ways and lrf eans. [ASSEMBLY.] Ways anCl Means.

Britain, when the public debt stood at £~0,000,000, people said it was high­water mark, when it increased to £70,000,000 they declared it absolutely ternble, but no\v 1t \Yas over .£800,000,000 and there was more pros­perity than when it stood at .£40,000,000. Tho public deht of Queensland "as but a fleabite· cornpared with its resources and a~sct.s. The Government had un­boanded faith in Qc;c Jnsland's resources and in pursuing a sh'ctdy public work~ policy to carry out the scheme's ap­proved by Parliament, and .recently en­dorsed in so signiilcant a fashion at tho polls."

As a n1atter of fact, for years there was no 1nblic works policy at all and it was only in th0 last four or five' years that a public works policv had b-sn entered on. Sine- when they had been spending in all clirections, and now thev found them­Ee!ves up against a stone wall, whether tiny liked it or not. They did not like to have to pay more interest for their loans, b:1t he would like to know if they co:1ld g0t the amount they required oven if th .·. offoc;ecl 3~ or 4 per cont. Tho argun1en~t of the Prernier that the D10l'':'' a cou.ntrv borro·,Tcil the richer it became was sirni)h abs trc(. If G,·eat Britain had Lorroy cd tl{at me>n~y from a foreign nat on ins~:ad of ,, :th~n h(-,l'

0'" n f-thore' · she v o:.rld be insol-..~ont to-da v be_·nuse tho 1nor ·JT in Inost in.d-anc~s 1r a~ bo!.~,·o,\cd not fm.· re:Ho::ltwtiv•J 'rorh_s, iYlt fo1· ~--~·ar pxr~)'- <;:';::.. But it did :not prov(; that bw;a l&(' a CYtfltry l--:o-:trovv~,_-,-1, a lot of 1noney that it '-~ould b:~c-;mc ri-:::h. It \\O:.t:d b0 all r:ght if th ·y co::ld lJG-:.'lJ\V at ::L lo'v rate of inte~'C'St, rttHJ inv, t t~JO ag.1i;·1 at a h ~gh .'r rate of into:.·c<, bIt h 1d not be ·n t,l. :>ir Th('ir C'Xperi-e-::lr·u had 1Y~O:l it ·wa·, a diffic_llt task to rr1akc the nion--v E'<::trn +'he int----.ro::.' rL::-v h ··tel to :lay fol' it. JVIo.,t Df th ,i r pu 'jliC transac~ions had been rnv -1 '·hen then} "\verc~ :--,·e:trs of plc•·1ty, but thc_v were C'~rtain to ha Ye the dry years and lean years and years of fa1nino j,ISt ar, thov hnd had in tho past. and for that "''ason thy 11 o·>ld hav,• to p-tr.3'J.C a st( ,~tdy, sa~--~ p,:lte;-:. The Go· vornn1~"nt \Yerc pur;~:.Iing a" ra~i1 and indis­creet policy, and before l_hev wer::-- f\n-vthing­like out of thG !inan,ial ,~:ood th~y· were just about cnt 'ring thr-,, \\o-dd find th-,•nl­sclves in a much more clifficLdt DC'ition than they had b··n in for a long tiriw r,a,'·'· He n1ade l)old to ~ .ty that the Governrnent h2d not even Ldc-'n tlL' precaution, and had not e-,,orcisc\ 1 that f'Jl't'=.:,ight which >tv as n"'c-1qsarv to meet the difficulty they had now arrived at.

The bell indicated the hon. memb.r's tim·, had expired.

lUr. WIXSTANLEY •,aid 'he would take another five minutes. The fact t'hat the resolutions had to be rushed throucrh and ,a cable sent to England to try and g~t money was evidence in itself that the Government di,~ not know which way to turn to keep thmgs gomg at the present time ,and if the~- did not get the money probably Hhe £200.000 or £300,000 spent on immigration during the last two or three years would also be thrown away, for if the people who had been br<mght here were not kept fully em­ployed they would quickly find their way somewhere else, 'and that would not only be a financial loss to the State, but the £1 5s. per annum payable by the Commonwealth

[Mr. Winstanley.

on which the Premier Had laid such stress would also go with then1, and some­bodv else would get the benefit. He made bold to say that the welfare of the State and the interests of the people of the State had been sacrificed to gain a political vic­tory. If the Government had known what they ought to have known they should hiive made the necessary provision before the House adjourned at the end of last year, or, as was intend,ed at the time, the Go­vecnment should have called Parliament to­gether early in the yt''l r to get the necessary authority in time to go on the London money n1arket before now, and provision made for the next two years, so that their railv:ay policy would be something like in wor.kmg order, and the money spent would be hkely to earn interest, instead of which, in all probability, uniess they were excepti::mally fortunate, they would see a dozen railways ending nowhere, not having been completed to the original destination in the time they ought to have been. Therefore, he was going to support ~he ,amendment, 'as he thought 3~ per cent. was enough to pay for money at the present time. While they might not get as good a price as they wanted for the ]o,an, it was quite evident they were going to pay more than they had in the past. It was much better to get a lower price and pay a lower rate of interest than pay 4 per cent, and get a bett,er price for the loan.

Mr. BOWMA~ (Fortitude Valley) said he would like to ask the TrcasurDr a question. Last night, when speaking, the Treasur,er said that at the md of thR March hahncc he had an amount of £2,791,518, and then, when the Opposition tried to draw from him the exa{_;t antount he had at the ·end of .June the hon. gentleman said £1,000,000.

The TREBDRER: I said more than that.

Mr. BOW;\IAN: Tho han. g<mtleman did not sav more. The han. gentleman was renorted in the Pre'" as having said £i.ooo,ooo.

Mr. E. B. ·C CoRSER: He said over £1,000,000,

Mr.. BOWMA~: He would like the Tr~asurer to give the Committee informa­tion ,as to the exact amount zwailable, and also w'hat the ba.lance had been exnendNl on in the throe months from the ~ :Id of March to th,, 30th Junr;, That was a fnir qu~,f,on, 'and he would like the Tneit'•:!l·er to o::ive the information.

'L1o TREASURER (Han. W. H. Ba,·nes, Bul-imba): One or t1ro remarks ha,d been made that afternoon which could be easily clem·cd awav. T'he han. member for Queen­ton macle some referenC€ with rBgard to t-l1e Government paying interest with monBy bor­rowed from the Commonwealth. He ,,isheri to sa,y emphatically that any han. wnnber who had studied the returns would :tt once see that each half-year-31st December and 30th June-that provision had been made in a charg€ agiinst revenue aocount for interest, and if ,any hon. member would go to the trouble of looking up the last Finan­cial StatemBnt ,as it ,appeared in the Pre's, they would notice at onCB that 'a half-year's interest was included. There wem many things which came into consideration with the remitting of money. The question of exdhange in a big amount was an itBJn which ha-d to be taken into consideration, and mig"ht he remind the Committee that

Ways and Means. (5 JULY.] Ways and ~Means. 63:

a great number of purchases were made in London, payments were made in London also, and the hon. member for Queenton would see that the money the Government received from the Commonwealth wa.o not required to pay the int<'rllst bill. A;; a matter of fact, for eight years in succossJ·Y!l, after providing full interest every Y<"lr, they had had a surplus.

Mr. BERTRHI: Yon admit that is what was done with the money.

The TREASURER: He was not going to allow anyone to put words into his mouth that he never nttered. :Money had repeatedly to be sent home to pay for purchases made in the old country.

Mr. MAY: £750,000 out of £1,000,00(} was sent home.

The TREASURER: Frequently it would be found that the balance· was larger at this end, or it might be larger at the othGr end, and the Government had to arrange their financial business accoyding to the balancu in the old country. Was it a fair thing to say that the money borrowed from the Com­monwealth was borrowed to pay interest when for eight years in succnssion not only had they paid the full interest out of revenue, but had had a surplus in addition?

Mr. FIHELLY: Then the Auditor-General is 'vrong.

The TREASURER thought some of those· young n1e1nbers' "'':'nsc of decency was Yery small, but they would probably learn better as they "\vont on.

J\lr. FnmLLY: \Vh. n did you become a judge of decency ? •

The TRl<;"AS1:7RER: I-Ie wislwd to point out to the leader of the Opposition that it was so~newhat diGicu]t to asce,rtain the bal­ance just <t the clo,,e of the financial year, because, as th<> hon. mE<nber would readily underst:1nd, unlt;:,:::. a c::.-ble '"-as receiYed fron1 the old country stating >Yhat H·e balance was there, it wa'll i1npossible to say.

Mr. BOW}l.-i:>:: Approximately.

T:1e TRJ<;ASURER: It w.ts impoosible to say approx1matdy.

Mr. MAY: \Vithin a million or two.

The TREASURER: He was making tho explanation which had been asked for by tho leader of the Opposition, and yet, apparently, there were some hon. members who did not want him to make it. It was always difficult to approximate eYen what the balance would be in thP old country, because they did not know what commitments had been made at the other end for certain purchaFcs, but the hon. member stated that last night he (Mr. Barnes) tied himself to just £1,000,00(}. What he ha-d stated was that it wa,. over £1,000,000, and he repeated that statement.

J\iir. BowMAN: How much over? The TREASURER: As far as could be

ascertained, the available balance at the end of the financial year would have been about £1,250,00(}. That was the available balance in ·Brisbane and in the old country.

Mr. FORSYTH UJ,Iu1-ru1nba): While no doubt the leader of the Opposition moved his amendment in order to save the .country some interest, and had no doubt moved it with the very best intentions, he (Mr. Forsyth) thought the han. member would have been wise to accept the sugge·stion of the han. member for Fassifern. He would tell the Committee why it was that money

was so tight, and why it was probable the Government might have to pay 4 per cent. During the first four months of this year something had happened in Australia that

had not happPned for a long [4 p.m.] time before, and that was that

the total imports into Australia had exceeded the exports by between £4,000,000 and £5,000,000. The hon. member for Queenton, who knew very little about finance, stated that the Government made a great mistake in not accepting the £4,000,000 offered by the Commonwealth last year. Did the hon. member know that we had £12,0DO,OOO of loan money falling due in 1915, and that if we had accepted the· £4,000,000 offered by the Commonwealth Go­Yernment that sum would have fallen due in the came year as the big commitments re­ferred to. and that such an increase in the amount of maturing loans would probably ha.-e placed the Government in a very difficult position? \Vould any sane business man with commitments ahead be likely to increase his com1nitments for a certain year by about 331 per cent., not knowing how he via•. going to get the money or what the state of the monay market would be?

J\ilr. RYA:-i: You can provide for that by 'hart dated bills.

J\Ir. FOHSYTH: If we could no.t get the lL~onE-..,y, naturally ·vre should go in for T'rea.­sury bills having a currency not exceeding fiye years

lllr. RYAN: And you are advis(cl that _you cannot get the 1nneoy.

The PREMIER: Th('re is no justific;>tion at all f,Jr that statement.

~h~. BYAN: You c\)n't think yo.u can g.et the Inoney, a11d thr~~ is Y hy :you arc pl;t-Ling in that provision.

The PRE~IIER : Nothing of the cnrt.

1Ir. FORSYTH: The e·.pcricnce h' ha.C: mentioned with rE'::sard to the excr~,"· o£ iin­ports over expoxts was one •··hich did not occ ... u· ver\.· o1ten here in .... ~ustralia-he was not speaking of l/ueensland, but o£ Australia. Would hon. members opposite tell him what thev were going to do when we had £4,000,000 o.r "£5,000,000 worth of imports more than '' ere cov-ered by our exports?

:.\lr. BowMAN: Didn't our exporb cover our irnports?

Mr. FORSYTH: Yes; but that did not affect the position of Australia. \Yhat was the cause of the despera.te stringen~y in the money market at the present time? The cause was that for the four months ending th<Ol 30th April last the imports of merchandi0e into Auctraiia were £25,640,000, while the ex­ports were only £20,588,000, or £-1,800,000 ~ess !.han the imnorts. That was one pomt. Another point was that our net exports of gold ,,ere also materially affected. The _ex­ports for the four months of _l?-St year Just mentioned \\ere £2,912,000, wh1le the exports of goid for the corresponding four months ?f this v£.tr were no less than ;c,10,285,000. D1d hon. "members opposite understand now why the money market was stringer;t? A huge sum of money in gold and specw had to be exported to pay for !.hose imports. The New Zealand loan of £4,000,000 was issued at £99. The public subscribed only about 13 per cent., or about £500,000 of that sum, leaving the nnderwriters to fhoulder about 87 per cent., or nearly £3,500,000. Just before the closing

Mr. Forsyth.]

·134 Ways and JJ.feans. ASSEMBLY.] Ways and .Jieans.

of the list the. issue wa8 quoted at par to ~ per cent. premmm, and afterwards it was at ab?ut ~ per cent. discount, so that the under­ln'Iters, who received 1 per cent, would make ~ per cent. The Times, whose experh in

. finance were some oJ the abl<?st men in the v:wld, made a very good sugg<?stion to the ::\ew Zealand Government in connection with t,J1.ot l.oan. The ~"..us'ralasian Jn,urance and ;wnl mg Record said-

" The form of the issue has excited CQmlnent, tho Timts, for instance re­'!11arking that, although a short·~lated "'ue wus probably the best way for New Z~ala.nd out. of a. difficult position, yet it Im~ht Lave Issued a 4 per cent. loan with a lon '! currency foi' the cl~.t'lcq of a re­r:.· .val t~evo. years hence."

That was very (l"OOO advice to New Ze;dand, and It ,v.as advwe which might be taken by Quecns.and, and by membors of the Labour party, bec;mse we did not kno·;;· what was !ofmg; to h!lppen in two year•.. :Money was p.entif!!l ei&ht months ago. He kn0w of benks m Bnsbane which did not care then a.I-ouG acct;rhn .. g fixed depo3its

1 but the san1e

banks. were now offering 4 per cent. fo.r fixed d'·PO'"Its. D1d not members see tl"ct gold v:as go1ng uwa .. ~ fro1n tho Conunon.wealth? Our hop.e w.as ti:at the good seasons we v·ere ex­p(·r1r:~nmL1g '-"'rould be the rneans o£ increE~sinn­o:~n· exrortf.. tD. such an extent that they would ; dY for our Imports. \Vith r·· :ard to the ·.;.·enc\m<'nt, b-e t'.,·Jght it wouli bo advisable 7/ Wl':l1draw it, .· .. 1~d accep!, tlu sugge--,··.ion o.f ·..,; "q hon. membo1: 10i.' Fassiforn-.:~af~1el:y, that ~.:.-~J ra~.-- should :Je rais:~d fron1 3_~ per cent., b ·t ~hould not cxc0ed 4 per cent. pcr annum \ hr· t-1 _''.o~ld indicate that Yvhiio tJ e Gov-rnJ.~ L--.r_. nu~nt go np to .) per cont. it vtas not i!Je •\ISh of the Homo thA thcy should .·0 to that fi~~u·e. He roa.ily did net know why 1t w~s ·:·+nsl1--Ie to pay 4 P' 1' c---nt. nc,•v. i£ 1<o~~e. !n Lo~!i'on 1vanted to invert n1o.:1ey on t .. · uaSIS of 4 per C~:lt., th·\t me•nt th.,t there ';ould bo a b1g •Esc.o·mt in the £100, so tha.t t,~-~ 1 .L 1~on. y ~l:ey invest_ed in f!eLe~tures would \~ ~- ~' 4 pel C( vlt.. Ffo·<·-.:::ver, tne:v I' er-e in ~j~~ )_\and:~ a.: .. tb!J~ ll.nuncial _;'lYi--·· rs, "~- ho , ~ut, _l 1H.tC-.:r.-::t~nd the..~~ n~J..ttr:Ts l-"~tt r than ho_; . .''··?-llb~ ~ -~j and it n,i';ht b~e a ~rood thing. E' t. 1Y han. r ... ~ ~rnb:::-r ~-~ :::··- -··1xio1~ :l t:1 ge-t lo'tn HF'n S' ~tt th{' lo > '·, · pr'-""'ible pri·_ ~~. and, as

1-vanivd r:11.mey no:\:, they 1_?_d to t:t.lre It was. Ho wo·lld 'tron_]y ad-

, of tho Oppmitio:J to wiih~lr. w• J.~s r ·1 i1(\ ·:J:Jt ?L~d then l- \ ho1 J ·h0 Trf'J..-

1'- r ~.,-o~~.td run end the Bill in~ th~ dir-ection · ::et by the hen. n1em:1er fo Fa~·-,ifr·rn. a~~:nd~:10nt v;.~r<?> ace•. 'ltod, r.clJ. they

1~o· 1-Jr-:l 1---Jrro~-: the rno!l-·v at 3~ pel_-­(" nt .. tl -~ Gover_'lment would 1- .J.-v~~ to cr:rne hack to Parhan1ent .:;·:c·ain, ~nd nobody wanted tl ~.t. E,- !ryone '''llO nnderstoud auvthira­.: J:.1ut. finJ.ncCJ knew that July was a particul . ,_,;~, F'<"•od mo:Jth in which~ to borrois', and theV ~loon]~] tuk;e e-lvantego of everythinc'· tha't

·col-d m their favour, and be' rm\ wh< u they L c1 -~-lv .. cha~1c0 oi gettin~ monpy at t-h.e Iov- est r·'" .wle pnce. He hoped the amendment vcoulcl l?P withdrawn, and tlut the Tr' asnr<:>r would Imc'l"t the words "thrr-.~ and a-half per cenhun, but not exc-eeding four ner <>!ntnm." ~

:JJr. FnrELLY: But yo,u want 4 per c£nt.

:Yir. JfOHSY'l'H: As was --tatcd in tho Press, tne 1- hon. rr>-~nbf::~~ "\V~s ~., n.?ophyta in the::.- Ina~t,~rs. HG hau ::-t ~rtccl y._.,.v bad!7. If he h·,d fo!low,'d th<:> oxamplG of

me of tho greatest stitt:o,,men who ev0r

[Jf r. F or.sytk.

sat in the I-Iouse of Cornn:wns, he l,Yo:J.lcl have remained silent for his first session;. but, if the hon. member was dctermmed to go on as he had begun, he would get some knocks that h did not expc.Jt .

Mr. FIHELLY: !:Ie can take th8ln, too.

Mr. FORSYTH : He did not belieYe in paying 4 per cent. 1-Ie belie\td in paying the very lowest rate at which money could be obtained, and tlh1 hon. rnember \Vas S€'2k­

ing to put words into his mouth when he said that he ,.,.~,nted to giv"" 4 per cnnt.

Mr. FIHELLY: You practically explained that. You talked about discounts a21cl money at par.

The CHAIRMAN : Order l Mr. FORSYTH : He .,-as explaining that

they might have to pay 4 per cent., bul It did not follow that ho was in favour of pay­ing th.,t rate. If they could not get money ;.,t 3.]: IJer cent., thay \vould have to pay a higher rate for it.

Tho TREASUHER: The hon. rnembCl· for :~\Iurruu.1ba and o'Jwr hon. rnernbers evi­dently lnd neglected to look up the Act it "\Vas no1-: proposed to a1ncnd. Section 3, \Yhich it was sought to amend, read, ""hall bpar inter<:'"t at a I'ate not ex~"Jeding three pounds ten J·hillings per centu1n p.:..:r annun1,'' and \'"ith the amendment the Government v.anted t-e> rnake it would lTud, "at a rate not exceeding four pounds per centum per a,;. ... nun1. n It "rould therefore be quite c-ptional ''hat rat,.;; of interest ''auld be paid, '"nd :til that the lu.der of the Op,Josition sought to accomplish would be compasse_l by the amendment prc·:l0°f J by th€ Gov-crn­rnent. }Ie h{ )e~d hon. nH 1nbers I-V01~.1 :1 take a division, and it wodld then d" Jend on the .:,,dviec of their advi'"Drs in London •.vhether the r ..:.te paid was 3~ or 4 pc- :· >C'ent.

l\.Ir. HARDACRE (Leichlard'): In his jurip·tnent the he:;,.:.. rr1en1l _-r fo:· ~lurn .. Jinba. had confu , .. i the p"ice o£ money wich f-.~.., price o£ lr dTIS, which "\VCro two e!ltirely dif­fp,~ent 1 t :li_ t_;s. Tl~e •·::port. of ~gold undouJ;t­cul,,;o Ilr',j ), hu d-nin:; te>n<~,·'!.'J~· _.:1 tne E:o:_py _. 1arkct i:1 A·htralia, l--:~T~ it dirt LOt P a1 tb- follo\Y that it ha·d a sirnilar t~·n­dcrcy on ~-~he loan l!lrJ.rk, ~ in G1-, ;t Britain. L1 f t 1 rc ir1~)ortation of lr:gc c~ antit:< s c: from lu.~:Talia should r: .J.llv n1a1· e the lon.n :-narke~ :· :('· _·. The £ollovviD<;· 'lt'-0-t .... tion-iu; ~ralr:sian Ins"J· ·.n, e c :rl E.· J,":ng I "ord, o" 21st ~-lay last-·dwwwl thP t tho loan 111E' ·~ret in Gr,~at BritJ.i-1 hc~d re~Jly improved:-·

"The B:J:lk of Engla.nd Ptatcn1e.1ts for the hut iive \reeks an~ indi atin~ o[ a stt-_-ady conc:ition of affairs, thG rt::l'\?rvo. Efter thG recover\ fro1n t~·o rffe;t of the Eastn holidays, showing little yari­ation at over £29,00~,000, the proportion to li3biliti£s being substantial. On the llt;I insbnt the bank discount rat" was redtH.:c>d fro1n 3·~ to 3 p~r c?nt., but the market has not cloc-ch· follov ... ed the rr:Jvement, tho lah'-t oPen market quo­j .1tion being 2k per cent. The Paris rate has hardly vari d r,:t 3 per ce~;t."

It \Vas a \.-eil-kno\, n L1c-t that tho 1neans the Bank of En~ l <; (ld had of securin;:; n1oro ~noney \V~S to rai _ 3 fh(-; di'"<''1Uiit rate, and. If th~;· ~ad 1;lcnty of money they oae?i off by rc"lacing L1e -d1::·~ount rate. It \'':as there­fore apparent that on 9th Mav la.st the bank had abundance of 1noney, s12;ing that it re­duced the discount rate. If the exporta~

TYays and !'.:leans. [5 JULY.] Ways and JVleans. 65

·tion c, cold cc:nn Au' tralia had any effect 'On the uu.rket in the old country, it only .affected it to a fl·actional degree.

The TREASURER: Oth r a~~ltllorities giYo q:1i~c a diri' ,rent ovinion to that.

Mr. HARDACRE: He thought that before . they agreed to increase the rate of interest the advice on which the Government had acted shonld be laid on the table of the House. It was not fair that they should be asked to take snch an important step unless they were accJuainted with the advice ten­·derod to the Government. If the rate was to be raised at all, he "ould prefer to e '" it raised to not nwrc than 32 per cent. If they fixed the rate at 4 per cent. in a Loan Bill, they would be practically offering 4 per ·cent., and lenders would offer their money .at not l"s than 4 per cent. The maXImum rate put into the Bill would really be the rninin1u1n. R""~l6ll assun1ing the loan n1arket to be exceedingly hard to-day, it did not follow that if they put 3ij per cent. into the

·Bill they would be at a disadvantage. If the hardening tendency was there, they would not be prevented from getting a loan, though they would not be able to get it '1t par. If they offered 4 per cent., they might -get the full £10q; but if they offered 3~ per cent., they mrght only get £96 or £97. If 4 per cent. w cts put into the Bill, lenders would make use of it to their own advantage, and we would be losers; besides, it would set the mark for future loans.

JI/Ir. FORSYTH: Not necessarily. There will probably be a 4 per cent., 3~ per cent., and 3 per cent. loans.

?,Ir. HARDACRE: To some extent the ·Customan· rate had an influence on the amount ~ffered; and it would be unwise to dnpart from the customary rate of 3~ per cent. Another thing, if they were prepared to pay 4 per cent. for this loan of £2,500,000, they ought to offer 4! por cont. for the money to be raised by Treasury bills, because the interest on a short-dated loc,n was generally higher than that on a lr:ng·· dated loan. .A long-dated loan was of more value to the inv<estor than a short-dated I•Jan -just r,s a Ion~ lease .,-,':ra:". of In ore value to the pastoralist than a short l0"s~-and the in­Y ".:::!tor \vas prepared to offer In ore for ·"',hat was a greater value. During the rccf':nt elections the Treasurer lvent so far as tG tell the country that there would bo no difficuHy in obtaining loans, yet within a short period there was practically such g1·eat diflicultY that the Go' ernment considered it nee .-.ssJ.ry to pas·, a Bill increasing the rate of interest to 4 per cent. Nat only that, but a copy of the Bill had been sent to London; and the moment the Bill pa.sed, a " Titanic" message 'vas to be sent­"' S.O.S."

JVlr. MuRPHY: "I.O.U." Mr. HARDACRE: It would be "S.O.S."

-a 1nessage for help. " Con1e to our aid." Mr. BOWMAN : Or we perish ! Mr. MuRPHY: \Vhen we passed all those

railways was the time to sing out for help.

Mr. HARDACRE: He was one of those who told the Government at the time that they were rushing on to destruction in fol­lowing the policy previously adopted in New Zealand by Sir Julius Vogel-the policy of "boriow, boom, and burst."

JI/Ir. MuRPHY: .And after all that passed .£10,000,000 for railways.

1912-F

Mr. HARDACRE: He did not-the hon. gentleman did.

Mr. MURPHY: We all voted for them . Mr. HARDACRE: He had heard it stated

frequently that "we" did so-and-so. The fact was that those things were done by the majority, not by those in the minority .

I~1r. :MuRPHY: Didn't you vote for any railways?

Mr. HARDACRE: Yes. l\.lr. MVRPEY: \Vol!, you have to build

them and pay for them.

Mr. HARDACRE: And if they had not had so n1e.ny ruilvfay.-:: they ·would not ha YC bt:_en in this position no1 ; they \Yould haYe bee:> able to carry out the railways they needed to build, arrd Aill not be in financial difficulties.

OPPOSITION ME>IBERS : Hear, hear ! Mr. HARDACRE: It was ill-advised at

the present time to go to the money-lenders and pay interest at the abnormally high rate of 4 per cent.

The bell indicated that the han. member's t:mo had , .. cpirod.

:Mr. RYAN (Barcoo) had much pleJ.sur<e in SL!pporting tho arncndnu nt HlOved by ~he. leader of the Opposition, and he would hke to sa,', in ans\YE· r to tho Treasurer, that this part:, was as fully cognisant of the rc''ources of ()ucensland as t.he r:rrcasurcr was. Thoy v. er~ also prepared to promote the clcvelop-

Inent of 0u,~ensland bv the con­[4.30 p.m.] struction ;,f railways 'and oth,' r

public \vorks, and to p~ ov1do tno 1noney therEfor, and p1ovido it in the .bt.:·~ "\t ay pot-;:,:iblo and at. th.:"' Inost opportune hn1e. \Yhat they obje-cted to w ·s that the Govern­ment b:) not acting woner had brought about the prcs(:.~nt position. Th"' hon. nv,,n1ber for l\iurruu:;.ba, speaking last night, said if ~ny Government support· r had got up durmg the election timo and stated that 1t was nr-c'", .::ary to pay 4 per cent. for a loc;1, th~t the raih\aJJ had to LOon, and they .:-roro I!l favour of getting it, the"~ would ,obll have bp:~n rGhtrn<'d; but the hr)'l. JH02<JL r forgot to sav that if tl1ey h ,.d alco added that that position was brought about-as the han. rncnber sL;.id on tho floor of thG I-Iouse last sehio•l and also last night-l.J:. the incom­p~tenf'y of the GovornillClt \vhich they \YOre supporting, did he think they '':auld have Lccn returned to support the Go•~ ·rnment?

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: No.

1\Ir. RY J.~: He had no doubt that if that P''sition had been brought about, no~ by tho incon1petenc~Y of the Governn1ent, as he stated, but bv other circwnotanccs for 11·hich they \\'Ore n"ot responsible, that the result which he predicted might have come about. But, in this cas<, they had the han. member for Murrumba Ftating-and he (Mr. Ryan) agreed with him-that tho Government last session failed to take good advice and curtail expenditure. Consequently the Government now asked the House at short notice to give them power, as the han. member for Leich­hardt said, to cable a kind of wireless mes­Page, "SOS "-help--

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: Or we sink.

Mr. RYAN: Or we sink. In answer to their criticisms, the Treasurer got up and deliberately misrepresented their criticism •\·hen he applied the term "stinking fish" to this side, as he knew that the Opposition

Mr . .Ryan.]

TVays ancl JYieans. [ASSEMBLY.] TV ays and JJ:leans.

were as ll1Ef'h in favour of de..-,doplnent, and more so, than he (the Treasur0r) was, but he

wished to side-track the whole thing by stating that they were a stinking-fish crowd, and did not ,,·ant the country to de;-elop. \Vhat the Opposition wanted was to have the country develop on proper lines, and particularl;.· to have tho 'rreasury conducted in a business­like n1anner.

0PPOSITIO;; MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Mr. RY iN: And their only protest whilst in the Hou e was to have the ordinarv forms of the House ob,crved, to allow of· proper discu-sion, and to allow of the pc•ople of Queen~land finding out so!ncthing which ho (Mr. Ryan) had no hesitation in saying was improperly suppressed. He hopc•d the hen. gentleman would understa•·d the meaning of that-improperly suppre<,sed by the Gow;rn­ment during the late election. There was no doubt that that was the first time on which the people of Queensland would become alive to tho fact that before the last ,e],ection, and before the special session which they were promised in April, the Government were faced with this position. When he (Mr. Ryan) was sp<·aking yesterday, the Premier nodded a,sent when he had suggested that he knew in March or April of the state of affairs that he knew of now, and yet he did not maim it known to the country. Ho did not thiPk it could bo too strongly en1phasi•~;;_-:d, whether the Government liked it or not, and each and every man sitting on that bench wacc responsible for improp-erly supprPssing th <t infc cnation dnring the last elc>dion.

'I'hC' SECEETARY FOR PUBLIC LA::;;m : Do you bdic~yc it youn ,:lf?

~\Ir. RY ~cl';: He be !ievcd it, and the han. gentlema·1 b·CJicvc;d it, and was ?nc of ti:ose who improperly snpprc-,ced that mformatwn. During the last Puliamont tho hon. gentlcc 1na.n \Va-. very capLble of pointing out to \lv~ Guvernment that they had monkeyed With the finances in a certain "~,vay.

~\lr. Bovn.~A~: l-Ie was their candid friend.

Mr. RYAN: He was their can-did friend, and that criticism led to his being where ho v .. Tas 110\Y. l-Ie 1va..; now a m-ernher of a GoYernr :ent "v'hich only the other day had done a similar thing with regard to

lean fron1 tl1o Con1Irl011VYFalth, but the Prcin!,-·r was taking stc~1s to have that action ratified. In that r<;"'1eet (his Govcrnn1cnt wa _ c.cting differently- to the last Govc,·n­mcnt ; but, nevertheless, they had takm1 a s:',,p cc;hich the,,- were not .authorised to takt'. Th ~rB v;-.ere t'vo things patent to ~.im, which he thought the elcctms should he .t'•le tD understand, and they were these: that the oth,·r day tho Queensland Government !JOr­rowed from the Commonwealth £1,000,000, ::..t 3~ per cent., for one year. T;wy ti.i"Bn

knmv that a few months before the Common­WcCtlth Government offered a considerably larg-er .an1ount.

T·he PREMIER : I beg your par-don-£400,000.

Mr. RYAN: \Yell, £400.000, for a con­~idera,bly longer perind, he should have said. Ho stood corrected in reg·ard to that, but it was for a considerably long·er period at 3~ per cent., 'and that was refused. Now they were asked to give the Government power to borrow ·at home at 4 p-er cent. per ·annum. Their experience of the Com­monwealth loan had shown that tne p:·o­posal of the leooer of the Opposition was

[M-r. Rya~~t.

fair and business-like, and that they should' only give the Government power to borrow at a rate not excee·ding 3~ per cent.

Mr. HUNTER: They think they can borrow at that.

Mr. RYAN: They say they think th~y can borrow at that price, but I doubt It, because they put in <a second clause in the­resolution which shows that they do not think that their credit is good.

The PRE'IIIER : Nonsense !

Mr. RYAN : If it was nonsense, why was this second reso1ution inclu-ded?

ThB PREYIER: You ·were told yesterday.

Mr. R Y A~: He should like to be told ag,tin. \Vhv did they want power undet·· resolution (b) to issue Treasury ]:>i.J:s, or ~ny other fonn of Government secuntles, hav1ng· a currency not exceeding five years, to be issued in anticipation of any loans under anv Goverument Loan Act already passed, or· any future Goverument Loan Act? Note· the last few words-" ·any future Govern­ment Loan Act." That was to deal with the ·attempt to renew the £13,000,000 or £14,000.000 that were falling due; and it was done in a way to get the Committee to sanction the raising- of portion of these loans on short-dated bills at 4 per cent. pet· ann urn.

The PRUIIER: Certainly.

1\-ir. R-Y _\~ ,,\·JJ glad that the hon. gent:e­man admitted it-that he was .asking now not on:y for pmcer to ·d<><d with loans under th _ Acts of 1910 and 1911, but for power to deal with the renewal of leans falii11g du·' in 1913 and 1914, and so on. He, 'or one, 1rras not prepared to give tho Prernier that po,vo.~.· with regard to future loans, nor whs he prepared to give hin1 the po1v.~l' to, go to 4 per oent., v, hen, in their expc nence· with the Cmn1nonw• J.lth, the rnoney -GV:1ld be obtc-.incd at 3:1 per c2nt. Ho had heard the expL~.nation of the han. rne,nL,.-.:" for­Murrumba, ,..,ho had told then1 in a reiv dogHlatic vvay tho ·explanation of the 'I\ hole thi11g-even the Tn:a"urer wad sn1iling-that the whole thing was so!vP-d by the fact that our imports had excetedcd the exports. That 1night a(··~ount somewhat for thf. tightening of the money market in Australia: ·ho ·did not kno\~' how it vvas going i.o account for tho tightening of tho money market in Great Bribin, whPl'C they 'Yore going for this money. (Laughter.) That "as not a;J­par.ent to him, and he· did not think anyone rf'quired to be a groat financier to see t':tut that could not account for 111n ti.~hter;in,g of the money mark<>t to those incli,-idunls ....... 'ho \\'ere about to cross the Ba-:.T of Bi3cay to go .to Germany on a shooting· expedition. (Laughter.)

A G,:JYERX'\IENT MEMBER: It is a qne~tion of supply •and demand.

1\Ir. RYAN: He thought that the reason for the tightening oJ the money market was dne to the fact that those wh;o ha.d money combined to~Cethcr to raise the 1wice of money when loans like this w0re a bout to fall due. And they could get Governments like the Queensland Government to 1ret power from Parliament to give 4 per cent.

Mr. E. B. C. CORSRR: That is just what New South Wales is doing. ·

Mr. RYAN: It would force up the in­terest to be paid on the lo!lns to be converted

Trays and }deans. (5 JULY.] Ways and Means. 67

in 1913 and 19lt!. The Lanks were now pty­ing 4 per cent. on fixed deposits. That was very nice.

:\Ir. E. B. C. CJR3ZR: 4~ per cont. for two years.

Mr. RYAN: And becmse the banks were payin~ 4 per cont. and ~L~ 1Jer cent. on fixed deposits for one or two vears thev could de­r•mnd a higher rate o£ 'interost 'from those who wished to corrow money. But the l·anks would only pay that rate for t'' o years, whcr,c.as the State-, v\rhen it borrowed, borrowed for forty years, and they ''auld have to pay the 4 per cent. for fo.rty years. But with regard to the banks, next year they would find that the money market had loos·ened, and the banks would th,,n drop their rate of iri­tere•·t to 3 per cent. or something· else. But the poor State-the go,od old "milch cow"­v ")Hll have to go on for forty years paying· the 4 per cent. TherBfore, he, for one, wa~ not, prepared to go •as far as the Government wished to go He knew that the Government had got themselvBs into a hole.

The PREMIER: No.

;'<Jr. RYAN: He woula not ado.pt the same spirit towards the Premier that that han. gentleman adopted towards those whom mem­bers oppo,cite said the Labour party looked to for support, and that was to let them "stew in their own soup." He wm;ld not allow the Premier to "ste1.v in bis own soup." He desired in. the interests ?f Queensland to help the Prenner, not for himself perwnaliy but for the State of Queensland. '

OPPOSITION JYlE:l!BER",: Hear, hpar !

::\clr. RYAN: He thouo:ht the Opposition could do that by carrying- the amendment that had been so tho,uo:hHulh· moved bv the lE·ado:· vf the Oppos~tion. In his opinion, if they mcr~:tsed the rum to 4 per cent. it would u.1c·an that they vc,ould hn ve to increase taxa.­twn. He would like to know if hon. gentle­men oppo~Ite agreed with tlu1t. Th<>y would haYe to Increase the taxatiOn to raise the nwnry·, if not on this loan. then certuinlv on thos~ lv•ns that ~';7ere accruing nnJ had tO be rPno'.ve-:1. \Vhen that increased taxation wus propose 1, the Lc,tom· party v·,ou!d be able to point r "-', to tlw cby when they voted to n:ake tL:. J;_,rc of interest 3: pC>r c8nt., and so rer,-·ove tho burden from the fhoulders of tho:.e > ho would have to pay that tax.

Mr. G. P. BAR>;ES: The intnr·st on £2,000,000 at k per cent. is only £6,250 per annnrn. . Mr. RYA)J was glad to grl that interjec­

bo.:l fron1 the bri'Jther of the Tre.'1surcr. The sum of £6.250 might only be a s1nall n1attcr to the hon gent!emar:, out to him (Mr. Ryan) It .,,·as a fortune. (He!'r, hear! and laughter.) There was no doubt If the rate wer-e raised on the loan about to be floated it would be a~, plied to the loans amounting to £14 000 000 which were about to fall due. ' '

Mr. E. B. C. CoRSER: Not ne( efsarily.

Mr. RYAN: And if they multiplie.,l that £6,250 by that number they would find that it would amount to betwBen £40,000 and £50,000 per annum.

Mr. G. P. BARNES: Would you stop all public works in order to save that amount?

Mr. RYAN: No. If the hon gentleman had benn in the Chamber whe,;_ he started speaking he would have heard him specifi­cally lay down-and he t<Jok the respQasibiHty

of saying it-that the policy for the Labour party was to push forward ·public works and develop thB -,ountry, and to gBt the mo.ney for doing oo by the best means and at the most opportune time. The Government had neither got it by the best means nor at the most oppo.rtune tin1e.

Mr. E. B. C. CoRSER: vVhat better means de you suggest?

Mr. RYAN: He suggested that the Go­vernment should have accepted the offer of the Commonwealth for one thing.

Mr. E. B. C. CORSER: That would not have do.ne it.

:\Ir. RY • .\ N: If the Gov~rnment had done its duty to Queenshnd in FBbruary and March last, then instead of bringing in 1.000 special c<.nstables from the count.rv to baton the heads of the people in Brisb'lne with their batons--

OPPOSITION MEi'iiBERS: Hear, hear !

Mr. RYAN: Instead of doing that, if they had sat down quietly in their nlaces and read these co1nn1unications fron1 :Th.1ossr~. Nevison, Isaacstoin, and Company with regard to the tightnes-. of th·' money market in England, ;•nd held a meeting, and said: " Let us be patriotic. and instead of tryinc; to deceive thc> people of Queensland with regan:~ to this strike, a:1d blaming thP­Lnbour party for it, 1'.-"t ns call Parlia1nent tog·eth<'J', and lot us frankly put the finan­cial po~~ition of Qacensland b-:-fore the flous0: and let us a'3k per111is,.ion to raise the money at the interest ncr'_: .. >,ary." If the Government had done that, th '11 they might have got the permie,,ion that they sought. He (Mr. R~·an) did note think it 'n necPe·rrry, lwnu ' thev had Andrew Fisher, thP Labour Prim0 Miclister, at that very moment, offering th< m a loan of £1,000,000. (Hear, hear !) Fancy the Com­n1onvvf'a1th Labour Govern1nent being able to lend the; Queensland Government £1,000,000 at 3: per c~'lt. ! The hon. mem­ber for l\1urrumba ,'aid that that was money which was wrung o:rt of tho pockets of the people, but ihar £1,000.\JO was collected as a tax on ah-ent..:-9 landlnrds.

OPPOSITION l\1ElTBE:ad: IJ ear, hear !

Mr. RYAN: If the (:l,,eonsland Govcrn­n1ent had pa,'ksed le~islation sin1ilar to that of the Commonwealth they would not be in th-c position they were in to-day, a;,king pennission to raise the rate of interest. Andrgw Fisher a few weeks ago gave his opinion about the Queensland finances, ,and he said that Mr. Denham would be in trouble sooner than he (::\Ir. Fisher) was.

The PRE~IIER: I am not in trouble.

Mr. RYAN: The truth of that was shown nov·. If the Government had to face the country to-morrow, since that disclosure in Parliament, they would not come back as a Government at all.

l'II r. TROl:T: That is "~hat you &aid the other day.

Mr. RY~iN: Just hee_r them squealing from all parts of the Chamber. (Opposition laughter.)

Mr. TROUT: It is you who are squealing_

Mr. RYAN: The proof of what he was s~ying would be shown not in three years' time, when they met the electors agaii1"'­they might meet sooner than that-but it would be shown when the Commonwealth

Jtr~ .Ryan. J

GS Way8 and 1lieans. [ASSEMBLY.] TV ays cmd ll:l eans.

Covr-lT~1l-\!lt. 1i1cL the clec ~orv,} \Yl_~n the Con1-:_lGlT\\-~ 1lth Labour party would sv~"eep the polls throughout the country.

OPPOSITION 1IE}.lBERS; I-lear, hear r

:\1r. PoYAl'\: Ho would take the oppor­tunity uf sayi:ag sorJlPthing further 1Yhen the an1(•nlnwnt v. as di jposod of, as If the reso­lution wa·· pasoed he did not think it should be extended to the loans falling due in 1913 -and 1914.

The PREMIER : The hon. gentleman had given then1 tlOl11e partieularl:; interesting in­formation that afternoon. They now 1<-arned from him that you could . reach Germany from England by crossmg the Bay of Bts· cay. (Government laughter.) The han. o·entlem~n's arguments on finance ·were on a ~ar with his statement that Germany could be reached through the Bay of Biscay.

Mr. RYAN (amid Opposition interjections) : I did not say that; but yo a could go that way.

The PREMIER: That was what tho hon. gentleman said, .and, like _his .arguments, it would not stand ex.ammatwn. It was •abso­lutely inaccurate for the hon. gentleman to say that tho Government had misled .the ~ommunity, as right through he (the· Promter) had told the C'Jmmunity that in order to ~arry on tho public works policy they. wou~d hav·e to go on the money market agmn .and ag,ain. The Government would have been condemned tf thev had refrained .from. going on the market l~st year to carry out their public works policy, and recently the policy had been approved by the c?untry, .and it was understood that from tune to time, as the moneys were required, they should go on the money market. Aft-er all, what was the evidence of prosperity? liVhat was th{) eviden~c of sound finance ? By every standar<:l they liked to apply the Gov~rnrnent were goinJ straight, and the fi"al'.ces, both revenue and loan, were per­fect]-. sound. The St·ate of Queensland never h~d been better able to face the money market. But the Government did not .control the money n1arket.

Mr. LEN~Ol'\: v~-h~:t is th, use of saying· that?

The PREi,IIER: How could they control the money market? Tl' ~-ref ore they had to yield to the umditions of th£ money ;narket_

Mr. LENNON: You are rushing recklessly ahead.

The PREMIEH.: How reckkssly the hon. member spo]ce, and how unreasonably, too. 'I'he <e01untry had endorsed the publtc wor\.R policy. TherB had been a gener,1l f•lect.ion since the public \vorks policy was anncu1wel1, and the country endorsed it emphatically.

Mr. LENNON: No. You fought the elec­tions on the strike, and you know it.

Mr. KIRWAN: You fought them on the strike.

The PREMIER : The Government won, anyhow.

Several OPPOSITION members interjecting,

The CHAIH.MAN : Order ! I shall be glad if hon. members "'~ill pr.eservc order, .and allow the Premier to proceed with his speech_

The PREMIER : It is quite possible on the Address in Reply that that kind of thing might be heard, but now they were <'lealing with a concrete proposition. Cer-

[ilf r. Rya1~-

tain public works ~lad been approved by the Hou-se, and certain public works were in course of ptogress no-..Y. Tho Govern1nent ha~l sufficient money to see them through ;Jr some months.

Mr. BoWJ\IAN : How many months?

The PREMIEH: He should bay on public works at least three months; anJ that 1\ as quite 'enough to have in hand befor•e al?· preaching the money market, beca.us•~' 1f they pi,ed up loan money_ befot'e 1~, was required they had to pay mterest without getting any return.

Mr. LEKNON: A hand-to-mouth business.

'Dhe PRE::YIIER : ~o. They now asked sufficient for tweJve months ahead. It was considered ~hat between .May and Jnly was the best period for raising money in the old country. They were llOW at tho 5th of July. lf the measure went through m the early part of next Wdc'k, with the endorse­ment of both Houses of Parliament .and the assent of the Governor, then the loan would be at once announced, and he could assure the Committee that the financial advisers would act in the best interest of the State.

l\1r. HARDACRE : Vihy not announce the loan now?

The PREMIER : They dared nat fo on the market with a rate of over 32 per cent. until they had the authority of Par­liament. The Government's advisers had simply stated that 3~ per cent., 3:! per cent., and 4 per cent. had certain relationship to one another and to the net result. It might not mean any diff·erence in the net result, but in the words of their cablegram there were other reasons why it was desirable to increase the rate. vVhy should the Govern­ment be so foolish as to say to their finan­cial advi'1ers, "You do not know your busi­ness')?

Mr. HARDACRE: Don't vou think we should have that inforn1ation? " ·

The PRE:IHER: He could not give thorn that information. Cablegrams containing that information were more or less confiden­tial. It \V2:,3 ouite suffici-ent that the infor­mation cam.;:~ fron1 their trusted advisers in the old country. If it was regard<.d as being a rash thing to build railwa~s, then, of course, the:;- could cease borrowlnQ,', and cEtase building railways; but he •sas gL~d to hear the· sL,tement ~< the deputy leader of t}, · Labour party that he believed in rail ·ay construction •and balieved in bor­rowing money for th~t purpDse, and bBlicved in borrowing it at the proper time.

Mr. H.YAN: I did not say by borrowing. I •caid by raising money, '·' hich may be by taxing absentee landlords.

T·he PREMIER was very g:ad to get that information. Then the Labour party pro­posed to build railways out of taxation. If that was so, there would be very few rail­\Yttys built.

Mr. RYAN: I did not say that, either. Mr. BowMAN: "Why misconstrue his state­

n1ent?

The PRE,MIER : The money necessary must be obtained either by borrowing or by t.axation, •and, iF it was by taxation, precious few railways would. be built. The question was whether the policy of the Go­vernment for the past few years had been wise in the matter of harrowing money and

Ways and Means. (5 JULY.] Ways and Means. 69

bui:ding rail\va~, s. \Vas it rash tD invest mDney that returned about 4 per cent? That is what the railways had been earning.

Mr. FoLEY: w·hat is the Great W£,tern Railway returning?

The PREMIER: It could not be a burden on the State, because those in the, neigh­bourhood had to carry at least 3 per cent.

Mr. MURPHY: Could you get money off tho Chillagoe Company at 2~ per cont., the same as they built their railway?

The PRE:\1IER: The Chillagoe Company would be very glad to have tho money they pllt into Queensland. The funded debt of Queensland, in 1902, in round figun' , "\Yas £38,000,000, and the re', cnue then was £4,242,000. The funded debt in 1910 \cas £41,568,0GJ, and the revenue £6,251,000, showing that thJ State had improYed enor­il10lu:ly in l'OYenue, and vvas n1uch rnoro able to n1;;-;_ t the interest on it'" public debt. And his 011inion was that Qu~ansland could eo.l· tinuo going on in t.hat direction, and t11e mor0 that '; a spent on railw_~ys the better c 'Jie would they be to arrange the big loans \VhPn th0~- fdl dne in a few years' tin1e.

1\lr. H:J:D~CRE: Can you conti_l.ue to get the n1oney?

'111"-c PRE~ IlER : Yes. \Ir. 0'3rLLIYAN: >_._t the f:>Llnc rate ¥.8 are

goinf; 011 DOW?

The PREMIER: Hov very frequently was Canada spoken of as L~ing a country that w,:, _; not increasing its puLlic debt. Yet what did thoy find? 6ince 190u Carw"da had in­ere•~'~ ~J h< r indebtedne·.~, by £225,000,CO, an,) Australi::t, in the sat_lO period, had only in­area ,d its incbbtedne,_, by £72,000,000. To­,, y tL.>:~ hcc1r .l of the great , nd boundless prospt :·ity of C>tn>ia, in spite of ~ ll that borrowing, and the prosperity of Anstlalia to-day w ts grc ater by rcaoon of her borrow­inrr. II on. rnca_lbe:t·s of tlF• Oppo:; ition had trit,d to n1ake some ;1r:,'u1nent out of 1Le position. of Gr···at Britain, with her huge debt of £'300,000,000. Great Britain was more p;·ospcrou. with hu· prec.•nt huge debt the 1 she was with a debt of £40,000,000, He said the se me of Queensland. QucenLland to-day '. as more prosperous with a debt of £4tOCO,OOO than when she had a debt of £38,0r1,000.

~Ir. 0' .:icLLIVAK: Because of the debt?

The PRC;)>IIER: The Qoyernment •.vere asking for authority to raice the rat.~. !.)

not e:s:1 ·.::~d 4 pex· cent. Their advisors ()aid, "Go on fH~ market in July." All the arrange­inents 1vere n1 '~de to go on in July, and thC':f would not have gone on the market earlier than July had Parliament mot ntrlier in the year. July "as regarded as a good month. If hon. members thought there was time subsequent to Anril to meet the House before they did~on -tho 2nd J uly~all he could say was, let somebody elso try it. It '"as quite hard enough work to get things brought t0gother to meet the 'Holl'e on the 2nd Jul-.·, a•1d he had no hesitation in saying that he would have taken another week, but for the dEsire to get authority to raise the intere<t rate at the earlic··t convenient time. Ho would like to come to a division on the amendment as early as possible, so that the resolutions could be reported, and then they would have the Bill before them, and enable them to get the matter through as early as

possible. Happily, the leader of the Opposi­tion, and members sitting with him, had said they had no de"ire to stop public worl:s. They had all stated that they wanted to secure money to go on with public works. It

was desirable to have authoritv [5 p.m.] to go up to 4 per cent. vVhy,

then, not put into opo1·ation their expressed conviction that public works should go on and that money should be obtained for such works, and yield to the advice of their financial experts in the matter under dis­cussion?

Mr. PAYNE (.1litch·ll): 'l'he mom one• listened to tho debate, more particularly to speeche9 from tho Treasury bench, the more one g.ot confused. A gre:tt de;cl had been said by n1en1b,~rs oppocite about the prosp2rity of Qcteensland, and yet the Premier had im' told th' Committe that the Chillagoe Com pany v.-ould be glGd to get back the rr:_,_)ncy thty had sp·~nt in r~i1':;ay C')nstructio'·, 'That cor,·pany's l'.1ih.,~ay ran through the Y· ry ric heAt tninc:_ ul area in tho Con1m/· _l\Yc-al~-~1, and if a railway YYotdd no~· pay in that di-.b·itt it \VOtd::l pay novvhere. l-Ie? (Jtlr Pa.; .c1c) had rath~r a goc.J opinion of {~u~''-'_J' Lon:~. \YiLLout. boo· tiEg, ho CJuld C1at he bad "''·.1 m,or of QuPE'!Jsl:-nJ tLun '1H:< -:· 1 ·:1··. of th; lllP--nbcr.:: on tho Trc~l ,u:r.:: bench yr1-:.t tor_;-f'i:lcT, and hr h--Id VHtt it ·.~·as ua­doubtu:llY t:lC l:H=-st Bf to in the \'. ~wle of .\u:-~+-r.JJi~, if pl'C·)edy rnarLaged. But it h~,d not L 'f n \.".·ell 1na1 -,gcd, and t:1 rc ult was that to-day -,,·o foun_d ou;: lYe;_) in tb p·_,Jition that '\'O .Pr~~ stuck for '·ant of n1on, ~\Yo had had cigh~" of the bc.c.t :uccsssivc ;JC~:tsons that a \Yhi+,3 man had r>\ S'-··:n irr QueFns­la_ld, L rjd >,, e had h.: d tho high "t p~ ~ce~ for ·Jur ; a~1d ;. et on aln1cd the first day of f'· sic..~ the fioYernnlL-lt \V t 'arir!g l,j_) ·, ',1e Cta.n'-:inc::- Order ,"o th:t n1ight ru:>ll a"',' by \Vlr<e,~ t:lcrr~aphy to ·61and to ~ ;-· ,lH·e S'H1h' rnonev at one_'. That pro--:-t d that the ;Jeop!e ,,~ho 'had m,•m ,in;:; tlw <111·air~ of Q•,,_K~nL:and for the yF·1rs hr· d ';)t n1a1Htged thenl in a ,-like wav. The han. member for Burke W~' always hCl.l:ping npcn th,~ fact that "\VO h ,.,d pn, ~- d tho raihYayR." \V-hi1o he (:0.11~. Pa:,nc) be­lie\ cd , h1tt Quc.ns1:nd could n~rt Lo dc~vclo}lCd u 1lc~." \\ ' h:,d railwa"', he did not ap

1) OYC of the \V-\Y in L thJ pre'·~nt bi~~

1·a.ihvav ":::hr"1J8 1\7 3," pa -sod. Th~- ::_·ail--..~7 -~ys \verc ,,, " thr0ugh tho Hous,.., v·ithout any pl clsJ, of re'f'rE' ~l :~, ur s:Fr;Jicatlon'~ bP.ing pla'"~U bdore th, m, and the £10,000,0,00 loan \Va '- t<Lo "g'H'!g-,d" thrvugh. The ho~. n1PlnL~r for Burk" \Vonld rc:.ncmber that h·' (J\1r. Pa.\ n0) OPlJOL_'d Lho:::::J raih-, a:,,,, not bt'r .d.!:.·-J he did not think \VO • hoUld build rail\\ nys. lJu: boc1.usc t.hE'":'? lines \vere being built in the \tTOll£" din•,<;tion, and would ncYC>}_' pay.

11r. :\IrHPHY: I did not talk about "you" r,,ssii~S the railw.;ys; I talk ,d about the IIotFJo passing 1·ailwa,rs.

JYir. PAYNE: The han. n,·m,lrr ~ ".id "we" pa-·,ed the raih'>'a~7 s, and "we" pasf."d the bic ]o,.tn, though he kno\v that 1-h-3 L 1br-:,uj· pai·t-y \Vorc opposed to the •' boo In, borro-,v, ._-, nd burst'" policY of the Goycrn.rncn'". \Vhat \V? the nr·:_-~ •nt ~ progn:> 'ji .. ._) Go--..-ernrnr 1t d,Jing to place people on iho land? 'l'he~· had 1nillions of fertile a0re ~ along raihvayft already built .,·ithin 200 miles of Brisbane, and "·hv did they not see that that land was more c10sc1v s'='·ttfed than it was at the prc~Bnt ti~nc} ir,t(,?.d of buildir:.g lines through inferior Lmc:s? H: was S:\tisfied that if the

jf!T. I'a?J!e.]

'10 Ways and Means. [ASSEMBLY.] Ways and ;}Jeans.

Prime Minister of the Commonwealth had not come to the assistance of the Government they would not haye been able to have gone to the country when they did, but would have had to call Parliament together in order to get authority to increase the Loan Bill of the State. He did not blame the Government if, "·hen they found that tho money market was tight, they L sked the sanction of the House io increafi>. the rate of interest, but they had not done that in an honest way. Of the £1,000,CDO that they borrowed from the Commonwealth, thev sent some £700,000 odd to the old country to pay intere"t on money which had been borrowed for some time.

Ylr. G. P. BARNES: You don't believe that, do you?

Mr. PAYNE: He did believe it, or he would not have said it.

J'VIr. HARDACRE: The Treasurer himself admitted it.

The TREASrRER: I ncYcr 1nado any ::;uch ::::tatrlneut.

:ilr. P .A YNE : He had heard the statement f1 Old a rather good source, and 1nado 1t.

because ho believed it 'Yas correct, but il it 1Yas \\Tong he should be glad to ha \ c it corrected. If he found he "·as wrong, he would admit that he had b•·cn misinformed. He repeated that, if Mr. Fisher had not eo·:le to the rc'cw; of tho Queensland Go­Yernment and lent them £1,000,000, the Gu­vermuent had no hope of going to ern <:ountry on the false issue of the strike. Even if the Governn1cnt were in a hole, he had no wi.J1 to keep them in that po,ition, but they had not acted honestly in not .calling Parliament together and placing the facts before the representativc9 of th•e p .oplc before the last election.

Mr. MURPHY (Burke) was sorry that his old friend, the hon. member for Mitchell heliev.ed tha.t he had accused him of voting for certain railways. He had just looked up Hansard, and he found that the hon. menl· ber voted against the Great Western H.ail­Wa)· <tnd the North Coast H.ailway loan pro· po:,als; but, at tht> same time, the hon. member could not say that the whole of his party voted against those proposals. He (Mr. Murphy) had said tho,t the House hav­ing giN<>n instructions to the Government to carry out certain raih\·ays and other public works, it was the duty of the House to assist the Government to provide tho money to carry o:1t those >Yorks.

Mr. HARDACRE: That IS not the duty of the Opposition.

Mr. Ml:RPHY: It was the duty of an Opposition which did not oppose loans. which did not oppose railwavo, and which did not even call for di\~isions~ On son1e rui1-·way proposals.

];lr. THEODORE: ,~.,. e calle:1 for a di\"is!on on the ;'\ orth Coast Raih ay.

:IVIr. ~1\:RPIIY: The\- call<" l for divisic,~!:'J -on cPrtain railways "\d-iich ctn<,_-: under tho £10,000,000 loan, !:ut "ould the hon. mem· her say tha·. divisionc; >Yerc takc,n on all the r,~ih.,-ays that 'Ye1" pass::-d last sP.;:sion ? T_)n-1er a sv~tcn1 of n1a lori1 v 1nL: if ,1 ma­jority auti1orised the ~'.Jn~~ructi~;,. of rail­V\~ays, surely it \Va-;:: "h ch.1ty of th0 rnajority,

[Jfr. Payne.

knowing that thOiie rail~Yays must be built out of loan money, to give the Goyernment power to raise that money!

Mr. HAEDACRE : We are talking about the minority, and we are the minority.

Mr. MUH.PHY: But the minority split on the railway propmals. S'?me of them voted for the North Coast Railway.

Mr. HUNTER: One or two.

Mr. MUH.PHY: Some of the members sitting in Opposition voted for that railway, and thev voted for a loan of something like .£4,000,000 to carry out the work.

'Mr. HuNTER: One or two.

Mr. MUH.PHY: It did not matter if it was one or two. The late deputy leader of the Opposition, Mr. Lennon, voted for the :\'orth Coast H.ailway. The majority of hon. members authorised the Go.-ernment to con­struct something like .£15,000,000 worth of railv:a}"·. They pas'led something like ,·C13,000 000 worth of railways in one ses­~ion', a;1d no~,y people \VI: rc talking a:JOut the reckless extravagance of the Goven_uneut in carrying out those works.

JHr. HUXTER: You mean tho Go.-ernmcnt passed them.

Thir. FoLEY: By the "gag.':

:;\lr. ::\iCRPIIY: lie did not n1-~an Yd1at the hon. n10111b2r for ::.\faranoa \.Yas tryius to rnake hin1 say. He was talking o'i the Hou&e authorising raihvays. If there was objection to a railway, that objection "'as shown by taking a diYision.

Mr. THEODORE: And we called for divi­sions.

Mr. Ml:RPHY: On two occasions in co:l­nection with the £10,000,000 loan proposals; but what about the loan proposals of last session? Did they not go through without a division? Then what was the good of complaining about the Government carrying on the work which Parliament authori.,:d them to t·arry out? He had objected to the big loan pl'Oposals of the Governr!lent be­cause he realised that, if the GoYernmont were empowered to borrow .£10,000,000 straight away, there would bo reckless ex­penditure throughout the State: but Parlia­ment having pass.ed those proposals could now do nothing else than assist the Govern· rnent to go on 'vith the work. They kne\v the pressure that was brought to t"ar upon the Govcrnn1ent to conll11('llco the construc­tion of a railway as soon as it was pn...,.,,.,,f Not one single shilling of all the £13.000,000 which Padiament had authorised the Go­vernn1ont to rai::~o \Yas to be spe-nt in h1s olectorat-,~, which ''·Tas entitk·d to -1nuch n1ore consider::tion than it had re~ciY0d. The Premier had told them that it was abso­lutely neeos.sary to ra.i:-5e a hlthcr loan ,vithin the next three or four 1nonths. or elso cea;;.o public >Yorks, a'Id the lc;>dor. of the Oppo· sition s-1ggcsted that all the-, should do ·was to increase the rate c: interest fro1n 3·~ ppr (' ~nt. t J 3~ per c 'l1t. But I he adv-isers of the Goverrtlnent iu London said that it ~:mld b..: i":"PJo _')iblc to ra~"'e a loan on ad­

,~ant,lr.,,.,:n-, fv~!"lll3 un}P':->"' the a~~yerllllH:nt fell into hnc- '\Yirh the GoYernn1ents of tb · other State.;, and iunreused the rate of inL:re..,t to 4 pe,· cent.

~1r. Bo-:Y~IAX: There is a doubt about it.

:vL. :\1l:RPHY: The propm.al of J he Tn:''lSEr ·r was to gi-r-, h~n1 1:0-\\er to inerctt~e

Ways and Means. [5 JULY.] Ways and Jleans. 71

ci:he rate of interest to an amount not ex­•ceeding 4 per cent., and he was sure that ·<every hon. member, no matter whether there was a Liberal or a Labour Government in power, would admit that that Government would do all it could to raise money as

·-cheaply as possible. If the Go.vernmont found they could borrow at 3!/; per cent., it would be foolish for them to pay 4 per ·cent.; but•the other day both ·western Aus­·tralia and New Zealand found they ha<l to pay 4 per cent. for money.

Mr. BowMAN : They had to pay 5 per •cent: in New Zealand.

Mr. MURPHY: Well, that was a lot more than 4 per cent. And the New South ·wales Government had to float a loan at 4 per cont. In Queensland they had gone iu ior a great financi,d drunk, and they had ·to pay the piper.

Mr. HARDACRE: And you are supporting -this loan no\\.

::\1r. ::\1L'RPHY: Not at all; but believ­ing as he did in majority rule, he said that ,as C:'rtain raihvays had been sanctioned lJy Parliament, and the people of the districts cone~_ rned haying guaranteed 3 per cont. on the cost of construction, it was the duty of the Stale to carry out its obligations to thosu people.

::\Ir. TH~.JDOBE: S•FJe of the people con­-cerned nen•r had a sa v as to whether a railway should be constr~ctcd in their district

·or not. }ir. ::Yil:RPHY: That nrovision was in­

cluded in the Act because the GoYernmcnt did not want land monopolists to have the right to stop a national work. A good deal had been said about land taxation and the Fede>al land tax. Y,ears ago this House passed a Land Monopoly Tax Bill, with an ·Pxemption of only £1,500; and that proposal was condemned by pretty well every Labour newspaper in Queensland-they said that according· to tho platform of the party ther;e should be an exemption of only £300; yet when :'.1r. Fisher imposed a tax with an

•exemption of £5,000, the men who condemned the exemption of £1.500 went into ecstasies

'over the wonderful work done by Mr. Fisher.

:Mr. BowMAN: \Vas not £5,000 exemption in the Federal Labour platform?

'\fr. MCRPHY: He did not know. Those who were contesting Federal seats probably took good care when they went to the con­vention to make the exemption one that would not lose them any vote~. Ji!Ir. Fisher himself admitted recently that the Federal land tax had not broken up big estates as he thought it would have done.

Mr. HARDACRE: It has set free £18,000,000 worth of land.

:'.1r. :\:IURPHY: So far as the loan market was concerned, Queensland could offer better secm·it.y to those who dr·sired to lend monLy than any other State of the Commonwealth. Xo other State built its railways on the sa1ne principle at Queensland, where every district requiring a railway had to guarantee 3 per cent. on the co':lt of construction. They all knew how difficult it w:ts to convince people who had money to lend of all the advantages that might apply to some par­ticular State; and when thev were out bor­rowing- they had to pa v 8: high rate of interest. He did not rn-~fe,s to be a finan-

cier; but he had run a country newspaper for a numher of years; and the man who ran a country newspaper had to be a preLty good financier to get on. (Laughter.)

The bell indicated that the hon. member's time had expired.,

Mr. MURPHY: He was going to add that the Trcmsurer seemed anxious to get the money ; the Opposition had no desire to prevent hin1 ; and it ·was 1nerely a question of the rate of interest. He agreed with the han. member for Murrumba that it would be wise to say that the rate should not ex­ceed 4 per cent., because the Treasurer would do his best to raise the money on the best possible terms.

Mr. RCNTER said it was very clear that the money was wanted; and it was just a question as to how much should be got, and what interest should be na1d. The Opposi­tion had no desire to sus)}end public 'vorks ; neither did they accept the responsibility of having passed all the railways included. in the rail way policy of the Government durmg the last Parlian1cnt. \Yith one or hYo ex- . ceptions the members of th · Opposition op­posed them strenuously, and the moCJ• s voted for them. fie had heard no argtunent yet to sho\v that the \V estern ;;;;vstcnl '\Yad desir­able or would be nroillahle. It would not lend to illcrf'aspd dCYe1oprnent or extra pro­duction. Some of their sponsors contended thcv would. There was less than 3_~. per cent. of the total area alienat· d in Queens­land under cult.i\-ation; and there was 11Q great prospect of an increase in agriculture. .-\nd tlw increase in wool production and in bt>of and 1nutton was not going to be very great by reason of the construction of that Great 'Western Railwav. And the same remark applied to our mineral production.

Certainlv, with the opening of [5.30 p.m.] these mineral lands by the line"

which were being· sent into the mineral ,districts, something might result, and it was lines of that description, "'nd agricultural lines, that the Government should devote their attention to in finding money, so that they might have increased produc-tion and exportation.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: \Ve want 111011ey lo :-::.larL liues that arc Vi-'aiting now.

Mr. Hl:NTER: They ,,-ere paying large sums of money away for _produce from other States that thev could well grow themseh-es, ,and he did 'not think they could look for relief in the direction suggested by the hon. member for Murrumba-that an adjustment of our financial trouble would take place by incren,ed exportation. Their real trouble was that there was at the present time a great demand for loan money throughout the world, and the Gm-ernmcnt would- be well advised if the:· simp!:,- tided oYe-r their present nt~cessities with as sn1all an amount of money as pos"ible. The Go­vt.:rntnent's adYisers said th<1t it 1night be that they ·would not haYe to pav Inore than 3l per c;nt. Then 3: pPr c•~nt. ,Vas a reason­a,ble n1aqzin to give the1n, and then they f:honld onlv borro\V cnonP"h n1oneY to keep them going for the 1w::L tweh·e m;·nths, and J, t their PQ"enL kf,tYl> alive and look after the financial int"rPsts of the country at ho1ne, .;..,nc1 \Yatch th·' n1-·1·k~t in order to place a loan later on. The Gov-ernn~ent \vould nnw hn vr tin1e to devot.e sornc a. tten­tion to th.1.t aspect of matters themselves, and if th<'v did that he har! no doubt that the neeclv "times in which they found thE>m-

" Jfr. Hunter .1

72 Ways and JYleans. [ASSEMBLY.] Trays anclll!IeanB.

seh·es would be overcome, and the loans would be negotiated labr on on more fayour­able terms. The Treasurer must know that the moneyed people at home, recognisinK the great demand that had L1ken place---

The bell indicated that the han. member's time had expired. ·

Mr. HUNTER: He ,,-auld take another portion of his time. The great demand for loan money had led to the people who had money in hand meeting together and fixing prices that they were able to demand, and It was onl;r b~ Queensland and other coun­tries w.:1iting for a time that that Ting wo·1ld be broken. They were only acc"'ntl~ atin5! tho difficult}T by ruPhing in at this n1on1cnt, and inti1nating that the'.· \\'ere willing ;:o pay 4 per c:mt. for the · n1on(_~y. He 1Yould not mind if it as for a small a111onnt to carry thn11 o; er th -:ir prcsPnt nocJ, bnt there lV~s nn indication in the rc;;olution in Tf:'~';'ard to the Bill to b::: bro·Jght do1.:n 1:1at . nc·t onlY \YouJcl th( pr-.;c,,nt reqG.lr~.:.ne~ts c;i t~:_-, ,Stat:.:. ,·rry th<-~!- r }1()~1DL of n.~_ •r ~t, nut <lso tn2 \Vhc~ or th' bonov :_nc authc:·i-_ d up to £10,0'):-l,Orf") that th,• Gov-·rntx-~ •nt 1 . .:J.ie:ht ·rrant e tJ '':'"l-- n ~ ht· 1~'- n£-' ~u~' horif_, ~ th~ fk-t .tiou the lo n o£ .:.:1o,O~J.OCO, thr:. fixed 3} l" r c:-ut., t. -1_ it ~/-~"· bdicyc'"l that :' .. · .- y auld get Jt th.:~: price. H,-. ~id, not. think thE r · \VOlUd I..,- !.1 [J}Y '- ltlClHt~.? 111 0~ , ~1i:.1g it · t. r2 .' at ihc +-in1:>, ·rncl a· n1ore r-'- •nt <1 it~'. Th~ · r; )W fcnu·," scly •" in t

1 ifiic lti_ ' _•ny ot hr•r ment rnig~ t J-~ 1 Ye fc_, f-F~l11Sf- h- 'R cu':+: hut tb 'Y \\·e:::c rot jn;;· ifie l in to the ! .1nb·•r nnd ~,.·-;].;::ing i<:- to flotation of such a. L•r§:> :-.n1oun.~ high f~-".11'2. It;~, not YrarranhrJ 11

1 ,J

con; ,· [lJ:.)uld lY'lC.:>:>d 1vith 0xt- ~y,---. v gnd p·-:::,· this hi ·h r ·t • of intC'~'·"'t on JTI'Ir -·~rL"'qllir 1ffr7-hcir-~J:.1-;J'L· t.: ~'. I+-iTI -~· '1 th-.t ull cur \·,·ark- ould th ,n [,he:- ~honld cl-:._ fC ' t' 1 , , eery rn_J trL . .- -,;en],; ~la\"(1 to f.I);.f' rc:•~nn· th ·n the.Y c··1Lr i y;oulc, 8 :-0

th:.:rc ,::auld !-,-. h}e;h- r Jl.'it-~h"._ a~1d fare: (11

O'!r nnh\aYs. R1;.;r:J Et1011!.' tbl ln1r thP G.1-y,·~nl11"P' lr~? flr1 ir '?d~o 1 "\V3R onl~~ cenlu-rti~lf;' tbc . di[h( ·l~·T- n'1 rn·.:r·· 1h~ burd -n 0f the t.TX!J:.P' ;-,n .. l hr- ~~~ thoy 1" ould lo well o,(hieHl if th,,. 9.CC"])tf d tb8 a.tJ.rncl.mrnt of 1-I--,. ~nad~.:_:::· of - ih" Oppositio1:. II€~ f('( vrniFrd thnt t~H~ GoYP:-'r'­lTI"nt was in trouble, and i..haf th0re 'vas .:.~:. pre~ •nt m .;0s~ity, _cn-:·d J_.hat. b-::-ing so he 1Yas prenf1red r.J CJn~1clcr fP:oi·:·1er i per ce-nt., so thut. t!1e difficulty might bo on:~rco1ne, but they sh.1uld not borro~'- rr1ore thr-n th." amount thev .w<'··nt-e<1 at the pr.-s0nt tin1e at that r -,te of intr rt',t. He hoped the,· v, ould g-et the monQy :•J 3!, pc>r -:enL, but' if thw;­had to JH:.- hi~-!1Pr rah he lvm. d tho Oo­YE'rnn1-e-nt ;vou1cl not L~orro'v all thPY cou 1,.1 get. His ovvn opinion was thn+ thf.n., \YC9

not the i cghtnE'SS of monPV in Cr~at Britain: the rea! trouble v.-a" that the holr'nrs of money had com<e tog-dhnr, knowing thrrt thc> StatiC's of th~ Co11n1ornvealth and con­tinental cvuntrif's W··re ]n the rnarkeL and the;~· ·.-·.-<'rl' able to dcm ·11J thc·ir mvn nric·. The debate whirh h td te ken placo. a•H1 th•, action of the Go•.~e-rnn .:-nt in corninf.:' down and askin.;:; for thi:". increasa in th; re.J ~. would all stre1wthen the hands of the money-lenders 'in Gr0at Britain. That was all the n1orB reason whv this Par1ianY'n 1

should ~:ty, " No ; hold off for the present, and wa1t for a mora L•vourab!o oppor­tnnih'-" Tl:1t \Yas what anY mPmb"r on th? Tr,··n ·-urv bench y·onld do if he we?

[Jfr. HuntPr.

running a private concern. He would sa;;~­" I will onlY take "·hat I absolutely neEd at the present tin1e, and whm1 rnone:v gets, cheaper, then I will go on with further cleYelopment."

The SI<'CBETARY FJR RAIL"\VA:·.s: That is what '"" propose to do.

Mr. HeNTER: This rcsolntion C'owred the "ho' _, of the loan moneY '" hich was pab.:)ed in th~ Bill of last Sl"ssi&.l.

Th-o bel! indicated that the hon, rn<>m:,2r's­further time had expir€d.

Qucstion~That the words propo·, · c1 to Le oraitLd (Jir. Bo!CJJta: 's rcu,•f!n;ent) st:tnd part of the first re"' .lutioll--put; and th~ Con11ni~J~· diyided :-

AYESJ 34.

Nir. Allan .':ppel Barnes, G. P. Barnes, v~r. H. Beb>in:~ton Booker~ Bridges C"'tilE' C>.r' er, B. H. CnLer, E. H. C. Crawf~Jl'd Denh. 1n · DougiJ-' Forsyth 0raut Gr::-tY'•Gll Gunn

C'>Ir • Hodge Luke Macartney Hack·-ty lVb.trossan :vrorc' :·r :L\Iurphy P<Jget Petrie R--:llETtS StEn-. Swayne 'tJ1lllif Trout Welsi.n· \Yi•cnhol'. \"\'illi •.

Tellt· .. ·s: ~\Ir. B. H. Corser and T\.Cr. "V1itnl olL

KOES, 24, l\fr. A<'::unson 1\;r. Huv:harn

B-r1J2r Kir .~u Eo rtn;-q l .. ·nd. R- ·,;nLnl LrG'l·,mbe BN.J~ I~n,

~~l;;-~.l.r ;,; ~t, LD~- ~r GiJdfty O'Sull:iY.Jll Gillie { P. ,vne I-Ia1nilt 'TI R~, -~n Hardacre Theodol'e Hunter \'\rin~'" --nley

Tellr. s: J\tr. KirV"ll1 and 1\Ir. r:='he -·.dare~

RP 0lwd in the ·"·ffirmatiYc.

Mr. BO\'FMAN had another amendment. H P InoYed the 0111ission of tho la'Jt Pix words fr"m paragraph (b)~" or any future Govern­mc,nt Loan Act." He did not think it was a wise thing on the part of the Committee to Inake provision, as the Government proposed, for the re,olutions to operate on all future loans. He thought they should be eatisfied with what hB,d been done in connec>ion with tho loan about to be floated. Should the oc~;.u:ion a rise in future to have a discussion in th- House respecting the loans maturing in a fov/ yc'--;,rs, it '3>"ou1d be time enough for the Commithe to discuss them then without givin~ tL:: Goven·n1ent the po'.ver, as it v.~ould gi~, J theu1 if his arnc-_1dr- ~_cnt w\_ re- not ac<eu;ed, to n1ake the re-~olution apply to all fut-ure loa E." That \\ ould be the tinv" to d'·t ide ,,Jr~thet they should pa·· 4 per cc·1t. on any future loans. It hrd bCcn explained by a 11'" :ub(-l' of hon. n1mnbcrs, particularly the hon. n1e1nbrr for J\Iurnunba, and even by the Pre1:1ier and the Treasur(!"L, that the n1cn/ y n1arkct n1izht ·.~.ot b :, as tirht in a : ~ar or two a·; it ·was to-day. If tlF.y in­clndccl the words which he now propc-sed to mnjt, the,\? \Y0~1ld put th;'ms0lvAs in the posi­tion that th<- y would b0 bound to the 1 per ecHt. He thoug-ht they might bind them-

Tro'i8 a.Hl1lf cans. [5 JULY.] Ways and Means. 73·

sel.-cs strictly to the loan thFy >Yore dealing with at the present time. Of couroe, the majority were on the other side, but he thought they should accept the amendment and not tie themselws up ·indcfinitel:J bv the terms of the latter portion of the clause.

Mr. PETl:IE : Do not you believe in it ?

Mr. BO"'Y!A~: If he believed in it he would not be moving this amendment. If the hon. zcntlernan h~d any intelligence at­all, he >Yotdd k!1ow that h<. moved the amend­ment be ~a nee he did not belio.-e in the clause as it stvod.

The TREASL.:RER: The amendment could not po>.,ibly be accepted. It would be patent to ihe memb_ors of the Committee that all the other States of the Comn101nvcalth had gone on to the moncv market with the uuthorit, vYhich ho \Y2-S n(n; r~cking, and if il1o otho.l' States had not r;ot th,,t authoric·- thFv \'auld not have b ,·. n able to go on t~ the~ 1 'arkc"­and obtain the higher rate of interest. Que• ~ <anJ ~~- 'lDrently vv-as in th~ n1i1~ority, ~·) far a,, th0 Ptatc:':i ~, ~0ro :o:;::ccrncd, thro ~g·h not h.cYi:1~, that :1o1.ver. One hon . .i 1'.·n1bcr n1ad" it ll rticul. rly dear that rtftetlH'O!l wh0n he a•.,:.-ccl if the Govcrnrncnt ~,auld be likely to jcopardit: :- its O\·:t· p ·~ii·: 111. 3urcly every Gc·. ern1nent-taki~1g it fro:n th;_~ I..-.y~·c _t r tandpoi11t-v:ould tr.;~ to safC[:'LU'rd i;· ovn1 p • .: ition, -:!I. v·ou1d not be likr\r to ··o on to th0 1- and pa.v rno:rc thar; "\V?'· nc: 8S~ sary for 1 Sur:' I, CY' r~· 1;. r:;>Jn - , o had an 1n 0uz-'E'"lSlLn.1---c <J>; -·ial1Y tho~.o in ' of th~ Govc~ l!l!J~~t-=-v.:O'-:.~d feC-'1 t1mt first dut .. ~ .-~as L) L1n Yvr t ·~t nc~sible · th could ·Lhe Stk:.~ ~ It~ \Y<~s ~ p)ovi-,ion ~.w.h~ch . od''"l' SL ::; lt- " ; 1t. \Y -:, a prov1 ton ~ 1.1o Qu _\PnJln:Hi C-ove nn1-~nt '' .._: .ted, a:r·d i: \V;

a 11ro'.+ ion that y,~p) highly nee:.~.-. ry in +l1e int::rcAs of th,· c .,J \;'O·.·ern 1ent v of ~<?untr~·· It ·~ad b~"n pci!lLcd C.l":- d~uing co·_,cl''·.wn th2t th 1n.Jr0y 1nark, flw'tu: ted ar -1 -·1tercd v,-ry quickl,,, and it y;;., nr:~c'3-F ury to br- ab] e to ac~·. pro~~-1ptl! . Thi) pro­yj -ion -was 1nade along the lin s of good b8Y2r:L~F ·1t, ,~s it gave th- PO'·- r to ac~ promptly, ar d by h :,Ying that power they might b•· able to s> YO the Sbte frc ',1 con­siderable di,:>dvantagc. He hoped tho leader of the Op01osition would not pre" the amend­mont, and that he would allow them to (ome to a Jivisio_n as quickly as possible. He could not accept the amendment.

:'-'r. RYA'\l :coid he P<,tm!h· strongly hoped that the Iead~r of the Oppositi.on -... ou1d stick to th-- arnondn1£'nt and fi"ht it hard. He could not at a.Jl nnrl.erst.t~rl "\VhY the Trea.:iur~ r dccn1ed it necC'ssary to insist' upon the inf'luFion of the "e \Yords, b·_._ause h-·fore he could httYe .anv futuro Loan _\_et ho n1ust bring the mL1SUi'e b, fore tho Houce c:.d have it ws· c·cl. That wos the wording of thG re'5olution-thrt he '.hall haY~" po"\Yer to i~,;r J

deb:::-ntnres under an"'\:,~ future GoYPrn~nr:Jt Lo~1.n Act. The k:.',dcrv of tho 0~1posit:on -~yas prepar,~d to gi',~e that power under existing Ach, but if the Tr-·asurer came before the Honf·~ and ast:d ;..,uthorit:v to r>·ise otL-r loau, as hc. "·auld do with regard to thoF8 loans n·hich were due in 1913 and 1914, mi;rht he not wait till lhen to get the authority to issuP :-hart-dated Treasury bills in connec­tion with tha 1 loan? Th'- hon. gentleman Inns~ ·nisunderstand the rc ~.J}utions. Perhaps he had not looked carefully enough at them. Therc- -.-~s no doubt th2 hnn. gPntlomun had

to come to the House and pass an Act before· he had authorit1· to borrow money at all, but now he want-ed the Committee to give him a blank cheque, as it were-to give him authorih i.Jeforehancl that under any future Loan A'ct that they might pass, that they ·~vere now going to superi!npose upon it the condition that the Government would have powz r to borrow, not under tho conditio":s con'ain~d in that Act, but under the condi­tions laid clown in those resolutions. It was a power that he (Mr. Ryan) was not going to give tho GoYcrnt:n~nt. I-Ie trus~.cd the leader of tho Opposition would stick to his [unondn1cnt ;".nd thc..t n1en1L=-rs on both sidPs of tho House, once they undt>rstood the nwaning- of the ~nnf:nchner:t, \Yould bacl':: up thp 1{- "lC~>r of the Opposition. He trust~·-d that the Treasurer, aft8r haYing look:<l car:­fullv at the reo;;olutioris, ->::ould accJpt th ~ a1n;ndn~ent. He felt that the hon. gciLlcn~ =tn ).<:as in a r"~'<SOnablo D1COd.

The TREA~:,_ RY;R: I ,_,,111 ab\· tYS in a. rca:-·Jn­able mood.

?:It. ItY ':..N: fie did not ihink so. The C. p Josi tion \Y< re in a rc_ · ;n bl~ nwod, and no one ~ _ts H!Oro anxiou ~ than hi 1 ~ ~f to F _'e thJ n1c:_,_ ·ul e pv :J'·.-·d. I1c \\-c...._lld like to

p it put tlu m.gh in an honr, bu~ wL ·1

th ~ 'rre.>url:r got no ,_l·d <~ css r.tioJ ihat he rhouL' ha1-; on to wortb, hD (~1r. l~~~~ n) flc _, lCd it cqr­cssPntial that ho should ~H ~. II{~ tru·~t ~ d h.)d. • 1 1 1nl l·· Fit; in;· b··hind th-- C-Jv.- ~·n"f[,,Jnt '· ·old'l_ · ~10Y t\eir indcpond-;>n('-::-, m··d rn~o t\_.py ~'v th2- unl" .J."Jnabl_ne·--:; of ~-1:: ':ttituc~~ t ·kOn up b · 'he Tt a,urc:·, \ ouH. objr·,-: to :;upera(1d r;_pon future Acts the f''")ndiJ :-'11 the-~ he i<hould b" D b~e to go on the r_aor:ey 1nark · for shJrt-t~atcd bill"':. II~ w,•i quite r ~t:cin ~hr:.L thG Secrcfa for Pui)FI_, I..~1nds could f'C that it wrJ for the Tr. ~--"' :l' T to st!c": to h~.: had t';L.::.'-1 up.

The S-F-'RETAl.Y FOR PuBLIC LAND:::: I c 1n H'e you don't me :n half of ',;h.ct you 1-ay. (LLu":·h ·"r.)

RY_\N: If th· hon. c··-·ntkman took l'P t .·H.itudc, and was prr1lar-=d to enc:or e t! po-_ itio2~ t·d~: n up by the T_:_Pf 1,urer, he (:Jr. Ryan) ou'i onl:• sa:· he had boen rnistv ken in the n }so11uhle ('Xerci-d of the hon. gentlem .. n's in1·lli:c( .c~. He (}Ir. H' an) y.-onld not com'nt' to gi.-e the Go­vcrnrnent the power asked for.

Mr. PETRIE: You are a lazy man.

l\Ir. RYAN thought the Go.-ernme:>t \YOl" ld bP \vel! ad vi,. :l if th0y would wh1p their " v,Thip." It wa.:<, just as \Vell ,Yhen 111 ~mber-j n1ade sense~-~ss interjections if they got what they were look in~~ for, cycn fror1 that sict? of e;r; I--Ior!"l:.

An HmwrRABLE 111Ec.IBER: B:,\ do rwt . tak0 an unfair advantage.

Mr. RYAN: He hc,d nothing further to add. I-Ie ,,~ould fc'lpport tho ~qnm~clm.ent.

Thr- PRE:YliFR :aid it " , ; " c:lffiz -:It in th:J r('solu-Lions to C'')?lY8:V all ~ t '';as requir-ed, and ho thor:.crht if th-e h0n. rae:tnh:-·r '" ould pern1it th3 rl solui·.ionr, to go throug-h, when the Bill \'Lts p1ac -d in hi" h1nds he would see tho thing in a different li~·ht.

Mr. RYAN: Perhaps the rtsolution doc•m't Ci)n-\-cs the real n1ca.ning.

Tho PREMIER: He t!,ougL it did. Thr)~ \Vere ~.~sking for a special provision in the cyent of the market being- unfavourable for a Ion ;·-dp t?d loJ,n, to i~.-,ue Treasury bills-

Han. D.P. Denham.]

Ways and 1Weans. [ASSEMBLY.] Ways and Jiectns.

That was as applied to thD present position, and such a position 1night again occur at some subs2quent date, when it would be extremely useful for the Government of the day, whoHer it might be, to be able to avail itself of Treasury bills to tide over an -emergency. However, the hon. member did not lose his chance, but he did not weak<en his (the Premier's) position. Those were the resolutions on which a Bill was founded, and when the hon. member ,'·aw the Bill. with his leg·al acumen he would recognise that they ·were not giYing anything· away.

;'.1r. RYAN: Can you tell us now \\hat is in the Bill? If you can demonstrate to mo that this resolution does not mean what it >ays-- (Opposition laughter.}

The PREMIER: He had cndr;noured to l.?·xplain that the GoYcrn1nent 1ycro asking for soinc ·-pecial provi~ion \vhich 111ight not be u~ed. He ':'/aS yery sanguin0 indeed that the money thPy were now requii·ing would be obt.,ined advanta§;:"{20usly under the full tcnn of the loan. If anYthjnO' occurred which nutdo it unwise to L put b upon the m·•rket a loan for the full pe"iod. then thPir adYiserF, "ith that provision, could nwet the f'l_lf'rgcncy, and they 1rcro asking that thP same JWWer should be placed on the statutro­l)ook for r ny subs~qucnt en•nt.

:\Ir. RTAX: ~lny subsequent _\ct?

, TI," P fiE:'.IIER: Yes. .~s apnlied to the pre ·~nt Act the Treasury bills that mil!ht be floated must be mrr;5ed into th~ £10,000.000 loan that was voted in 1910. They were ;::.i In:;ly af->king that sin1ilar pow{!r n1~ght be placed on tho statuto-book for anv eventu­ality th:'lt n1ight occur in future. v

:\lr. RYAX: \Vith regard to this loan?

The PREMIER: It applied to this loan and any future loan.

:\Ir. Ht:XTER: It does mean what it says.

The PREMIEH thought when the hon. ·member saw the Bill he \Yould re:dise that there ''as nothing objectionable in it. Hon. memb.ers on the other. sidt> were not. giving anythmg a way by lettmg the resolutions be reported to the House. Then, in a short time they wonld have the Bill in their possession, and would be able to see line by line just how it read. He, therefore, appealed to the Opposition to allow the resolutions to go through. All they were asking for was merely something for the proteetion of future Treasurers, future Governments, and future loans.

. :Mr .. HARDACRE: The Premier's explana· ·twn d1d not make the matter anv better. so far as he was concerned, and, {f it meant "-hat it s'licl, it 1neant a very nnwh big()'er thing th<>n most members 'of the Ho~se­thouvht. 'Cnd0r the wording of the resolu­tions they wcr0 gi .. dng the Go-\ren11nent power ro float another loan.

Thn PREMIER: vVP hav.c no Trrasurv hills ·( '1 tho s~ 1tutz•-book R"f'ne>raHv. and· jt is desirable that we Fhonid hD~YC' 't'hat power.

:\fr. f-I.\RDACRE: Thev were rcal!v gh-i g the Goyern2n0nt powPr ;.o~ float anoth~r loan.

The PR1DfiER: Within the compass of the Lo m "\ct of P10.

'~1r. HARDACRE: The more one con· oicJ.E'red the r0soJution the 1Jl0l'8 tric!n- it ~.eE>meJ to bi•. The· Bill might h·J ,·narc

[lfrm. D. F. Denham.

explicit in it3 phraseology, but the resolution was very yague. It :night mean

[7 p.m.] that the Committee were now giving the Government power to

raise a new loan by way of Treasury hips, in anticipation of a new Loan Act bemg passed later on.

The TREASURER: It only gives ns power to raise a loan under a Loan Act subsequently passed by the House.

Nir. HARDACRE: The resolution said that debenture' or Treasurv bills, having· a currency not exceeding five ycarB, might be " issued in antici!1ation of any loan 1noneys under any GoYernment Loan Act ctlready passed, or any future Governme-nt Loan Act."

The TREASl:RER: Don't forget tho fact that \Ye can only borrow under an Act p'lssed by the House.

:\·lr. HARDACRE: The resolution might nH~an that tho Goycrntncnt \Vere to be given pu~Yer to issue rrrea "-Ur;.' bills before Par lia­n.ent passL'd another Loan Act, but ;y3r­sonally he did not think it meant thr>t. It 1night also 1nean that the Governn1ent wore to haxc po"':,-.,-cr to i~suo Treasury bills after any future Loan Act was passed, and e.-en frcm that point of ,~ie\v the prG~)Qsal vvaq objec<ionablc, inasmuch as it affirmed that the future practice of Parliament would be to allow the Government to borrow 1:1cro. •y b,' n1cans o£ short-dated Treasury bills, instead of bv the ordinan- and less costly nwMlS of long-dated clebenturec. \Yhere "·..ts t]p ach-ant:.gc of i"'uing Tr,·asury bills?

The PREMIER: There is no adv-antage un­less the emergency demands it. It is a resort our advisers would not avail thom.•eh-es of except in emergency.

Mr. HARDACRE: The present practice was for the GoYernment to raise money by mE'v~ns of debentures for long terms, which was an easier and a loss costly method than issuing short-dated Treamry bills. He could understand issuing Treasury bills to make good a deficit or a series of deficits in the annual revenue, but in his opinion it was very objectionable to make it a perennial practice in connection with all future loans.

* The PREMIER: He would not set up his judgment against that of the ad· v-isBrs in whom the Government had had confidence for many years past, and they urged as late as April last that the Go­vernment should secure authority for issuing Treasury bills. As far as he could gather, all the other States of the Commonwealth had "uch anthoritv on their statute-books, so that in an emergency they could resort to the issue· of Treasurv bills. The hon. mem­ber for Leichhardt' quite correctly stated that. Tr~asury bills had bGen issued in Queens­land to cover deficits, and that those we.re the onlv form of Trea~urv hills issuC'd in this Rtate. 'll'hen the advisers of the Govern­ment '';ired them, ur::ring that Treasury bills should 'be issued if emergency demanded, the Government renlicd that thev had no authoritv to iBslJ\~ suCh bills: '' Do ;7 ou advise that such authority should be .;btained ?" And the resnonse came back, "Yes, for use in emergency." He thought ho had made it quite clear the pnvious clay that July had been looked unon as a favourable month for floating u loan, but perhaps he had not

T'Vays and Means. [5 JULY.] Ways and ],Jeans. 75

done so. It was no usc saying that 1t was all imagination that July was the most ed>an­tageous month. They were told that it was, and in order that they might a vail the!ll­selves of the opportunity of borrowing in that month, the Bill must be attachable to the issue, wchether they were ordinary loans or Treasury bills. Accordingly, the very Bills that would be introduced immediately the resolutions were report<:.d to the House were now in th·· hands of the Government s

. advisers in London, and it was therefore nec<'ssary that the Committee should pass them as presented. He thought it was proper that there should be a gene~al pro­vision on the statute-book empowering them to issue Treasury bills in an en1ergencv; but if, after further investigation and considera­tion, it was considPl~ed that such a g>2a.:=~r·,,i )JroYision was of doubtful utilitv, he would undertake. if he was there next sc&;ion, to give the House an opportunity of reviewing the question, and of deleting the "ords that Vd?Te considered unwise to haYe on the sta.+ute-book. Wh •n he S"1W th" £2.0DO.GOO :'-I ew S·mth \Vales loan floated a few· weeks ago, he immediately realised that the Go­vernment of New South \Valeo had authorit .. that the Go.-ernment of Queensland bad nt'{. Th0 Go\~i-:,rnnF·nt l,ad siri1ulv aDd iu1DliC'ir1~ followed the ad,ice gh-en' them-; an.~ thJs<· hon. 1non1bcrs \Vho had n10t their advis:c, s at home, or "·ho had met the Agent-Gend'B I in Qu~ensl and, would recognise that thcv would not; be likelv to nut the Go.-ernmcJ{t upon a false scent: •

~1r. HARDACRE: Did \Oar nch·iscn r'com­IllC'DU n, gerl'ral proyfsion for all hlturc loans?

The PREJYIIER: l'\o: Lut hon. 1ne1nl-H c..; v:ould rr'. ogni.: • that lH' \YU3 pcrft cHy fair v,'hcn he proln1~F·d to gi"".-P the 1-Io,lE>~ nn

·opportunity next ::;cssion of dealing \Vith the 'qUPStion in the light of fuller infonnat:on. At pr"'ent the Government thought it a wise provision to have in case of 0Jnergc:1cy. ~obody knew j:lst 'vhat fluctuzdions might ·occ.tr. Han. members must realis<' that >"chen ~their loans fell ·due thev would not be able to pay them off out of r<e~·enue, and that it would l>e a ca0e of renewal. The ))]'okcrs and ·those who n<'gotiated these things at homo -did not miss an opportanity of getting the> il' fees for a new flotation, and thev· wt'n~ V0l'\7

powerful people. One Austraiian Stat ,__-_ ~he thought it was South Australia-made a bold effort a year or two ago to break caway, but unfortunately the effort faibd, and there was no use for Queensland to ::ttten1.pt to set itself against that kind of thing "on its o;,vn." The day n1ight con)-c> when t-he ( 'oinrno71\Yealth \VO:lld . negotiate all loans, and the Conlnron\ccaltL Inight be in quitn ~ diffen,nt position. The noint just r<.O\V \VQS that llv~ ffiC'D \Vh0111 Qurh--msland h:-,,d b 1st0d as adYi'<'rs for rnany years, ~aid: •· Ohtain authority for the issue of 'Trea- uy hills," and in the Bill that would b~=' introduc ... 'd "'-'\'h'·''l the re,jolution "~(n1t 1hrou(,(h a perc-::1~1i,.,l po,ye-r to is~u Tr.·.1s~rv Lill· ,-as g·iyen: Jnt if. aft-er han. memb::n:s had an oppor~ 1nity of revie;ving the situa­tion. th0y consid·q·0d it an un\vise proYii-,iua to h8Yf' on th stui ~lte-bc--Jk, he \YJJS p ~r­f~~ctly \\-illing· to hrir '.{ it before the IIoUs•"', and ,, llow it to 1 '12 d1fcussc·d on its n~ •rits.

~1r. I-ITT~~TC1: On whc·,c jndgn1cnt \Vill ihat depend?

The PRB:\HBR: Tho judgm~nt of tho 1-Iou~·:. CHcar, hea1· !) So far as tlw iJnlne-

tliatc 5ituation \vas concerned, the Bills were in Loudon, and nL\St be passed as they \Yere.

Mr. RYA::~ : The Bills \~.:ould be Uf,L'less if those words wore deleted.

The PREMIER: Yes. So far as the pre­sent situation ''as concerned, the retention or deletion of the words would not have made the slightest difference, but he thought it was a good thing to retain rhcm .

Mr. HARDACRE : You mean that if the words were deleted the copies of the Bills in England would ha'\'e to be alte1·ed?

The PREMIER: y,.,. They did not make any difference to the present situation, but only applied to future transan::ions. The Governrnent thought it would be useful to have such a provision on the statute-book in ( ase it was found necessary to have to resort to the i~,,,ue of Treasury bills on smne future occasion. He gathered from a cable that came to hand that morning that the pre­~ent outlook vV.J"-J that they would not resort ::o Trca.·mry bills but te- an ordinary fio'"a~ r.ion, "·hich their ad.-i·,ers preferred. It thev i_, :·.A0d a short-dated loan for five ~ ··d,rs, it ,;,on!d fall d•w at a period >shen a largc'r J,}an was rnaturing. That \Vas an Gbj •c:tion he had to taking n1oncy fro1n the CJnnnon­·.,ealth la.·t year. He did not want to re­open that qm··:tion, but he wished to clear awav misapprehensions. He rn· t the Prime Minister, and discussed the que,tion with him. The Prime Minister could only offer him £-100,000, ho thought it was, at that ti1ne, at 3:1 per cent., for four years, and he (the Premier.) pointed out that it would mature about the time that their usual loans wore falling due. If it were po"ible to go on the market every month and buy their goods, it would be -best, as they would then only have to pay interest as they bought their goods ; but they had to borrow thmr money for at least twelve months ahead, and there vms a! ways a certain loss arising there­from. It would not have been good business last v<'ar to accept Mr. Fisher's offer, and 1t would not be good business now to issue Treasury bills if the market was suitabh for a loan. He had explain~d the position can­·didly, and he hoped that the resoluhons would now be reported, so that they nught get the Bills passed. He trusted his explana­tion had been satisfactory to the leader of the Opposition.

Mr. LENNON: The explanation of the Premier \vas to some extent satisiactDry; but it oonflictecl in a muked degree with statemf'nts made by way of interjcdicn !Jy the Treasurer, who stat•d that this only had refer-one(~ to Loau Bill::, already pase.ed.

The TREASCRER: I said lflO''O than that.

:v1r. LE~:~ON: No. JI'--nVl!Yt~r di:,~lrablo it rnig-ht be to give the Go_vei'll111t·nt power to rai<::e rnonc,- in this way, lle did ~1ut think tlw !. undPr a, rnotion for '!ohe ~u::;n,__'n.~i{J~ of the Standing Orders an autl1ority of this nature should be rushed throu_gh .. The ~s­stc_:J.nce of the Pr.cn1w;· a~ to vi-lnt ae \YOU.id be pr011ared to do next _session \VaS l~Ot Ycorth a f::trthing. bee:-_us•' h~ n1:ght not be ~J~Jrc lh \ t Year. The Go\-t:Tnn1ent P, ere a;;;k­ing· for 1~-J\Y{'rs nevE'r before grantBd in Qut-,:n~land: and no argun1ont had be-en ad­cl.ucPd to shOT'l the nrccssity for grant;.ng ftuch enlarged powers. V\.,.h:T, in e13,se of an

Jfr. Lenno:1.j

76 Ways and 1]1[eans. [ASSEMBLY.] Ways and l]l[e7ns.

cn1cl'gency an i1npecunious Gov2rnn1t?llt ""~:,·ith this povver could raise money at its O\Vll S>\eet will. ·

T'hD PRnHER: On:y in respect to loans matm·ing.

Mr. LE::"f::-.JON: They should not be given that power.

The TRE.\SURER : I would first of all have to con1o to this :House.

l\h. LE::-.JN0::-.1: The Government were a'kinp- fm· a power that should not be giv<m to tlkm: and J1e hoped tho leader of the Opposition \You~d press his amendn1ent.

Mr. BO\VM \N said tho statement made by the Pr0•nio;· more than justilkd hiJ am 'lll~mc·lt. Tho fad of the Governm ·lit ':-ncli-:p: ho--n··· copies of t.lio Bills to ho F!'C­

··\ ?nt· ·l h0r ho"'tvcd thJ.t evervthing 1-vas cut a11d d;i0d to csrry out tho prOposition of thE ~o:·~-~·r>r~:~r~t. ThP hon. p;.Pntleman .;:;.,id that L t~~~'-, Bd 1

1 -.,,~Pnt t·~r?ugh to-J?-iD""'ht, tr Df-·r­

R0111'(V ,,-.on:d bA wllhna; to Q'lVf' the I-Iol;-p an opnortunitv to r-econside:r fhB amend_ 10-rt

l1e had moved. .~he PRE'•ciER: That is for a gcne1·1l pro­

VISIOn.

Mr. BOWMAN: WhiJ.e he did not dou'Jt the Premier's faith. members did not know wh<>ther the:• would b" there next S?· ion: and. h~. intended to force his ;tmmdnwnt to g :Inn~ lDn. I-Ie CDu1d see thp pc-;ition in whwh .the hen. genHeman 1v:,.'i p1a~'2-d. If the B1ll went home anwndecl, therP was bou~d to be 1 rupture with the fin m-· ,l ad.vu>';s of th,_. Govorn1nent: hu.~_i 'h:: {'~id not t'hlnk It ~~:'t'3 ,a fair }11in:-; to rjye fh:~· Gr\"f'rn­ment the power for which t'hey eJkeci.

Mr. PAYNE said tho nnaning- of the sub­clan~-' (b) of the resolutio21 '"ts pli"n enough to h11n; and he had no heshation in saying that unless the: hc .. d a Premir-r similar to th,; hon. s·entlcnwn at the ht J: j of the C--o­V?rnn1ent, 'vith a bn~tal n iori-t v beh1E I hr~, hr> .-, __ lld ncYer dar..:l Ecn~~; ~Bill like thrs to tb · old countr_{, and .ask anv reason-able body c.I n: n to ::::lpport it. ~

Tlw. P"enr:R: You don't ur::ler' tand tln )1l'OVJS: Jns of the Bill.

1\lr. PAYKE: In his lmmble wa'' lH unde1 .toed it e · \Ve~l as the ·bon. gcntl€;nan. As far a~ th~ Opposition 1YJ."'i (_·,.ncern,.::d, it \Vu:'J only, b2<:.tlng che air to b:;_'ing this n1atter up. ~~t .a·l, ~· Ju·.o the thi1 g ~~vas cut and drwa, and the Standing- Orders WP'"e to be

torn up for the time being in [7.30 p.m.] order that this Bill might go

. through. He necog,lis"d that if the, re -J!urton w..ts altered it wou:-d not fit in Volta 11 hat. }~ad b0._-·n s~nt ho1no; but ,ver·e th, QppC'::It:wn go1ng to q·1i.e~-:y allo'v the P_ren1I·'~, .t,--cau"9 hD happened to have a brg 111aJo~·rty, to cond_uct the busin{··c"i of the country_ JUSt as he liked, and say nothino­<allom 1t? It appe:n·ed to him that th~ ~vernn~Pnt were n?t sati0fied ,. ith giving tncmsc l;o~ parer WHh res:Je-~~ to any Bills t!1e? m_1g'·1t lL!..Ss, bur \·.ere t::Ven cn~·atino· 1!:71S1atwn for future GovCTnrncnb. The;, c-·1 the ot'het' ,h,,nd, wh.f should i\10y pass any orhr_r r.f\~oinhon to-1ug~t, b(·:··);_·e the Act P,rol~.tb::- fifLJ_i11 wiJ~h it? (Laug·hter.) 'Ih~v ,- _•r0"" pa::,tln~; :-Jn1cthing Hut appli2d ~o .AnhL" Go\-crnnL:nt Lo~tn A_cts: they were u ·1ng c.-;k~d to 1 T:1S sonv~ thing--

3,Ir. ~~lRPIIY: To pa-r.; son1-·thin~ ~Nhich v-o do not ~·c. (Laugh~·3r.) ·

[iff r. Lennon.

Mr. PAYNE : The~' were passing some­th'ng which mir;ht intedere with the pro­cedure of the House as far as the Loan Bills wore conc~rncd. The whole thing seemed to bf", fishy and cut and dried. _So:110 years ago there was a big dcbat0 in th:' Cha:o1bcr about the unconstitutional expenditure of the Philp­Government, and the then Premier, :Mr. Kidston, said that it would require a speciaL Act of indemnity to deal with the loan, but it \Vas quietly ~put into an Appropriation Bill. There was a little of that about the resolution b- fore them, which he took it was going to apply to the loans falling due bchncen now and 1915. If it was shown that it would be beneficial to th•e people of Queensland that legislation should be pas:<ed now dealing "\Yith tho3c loans, \• cJl and sood, but he did not think it vas so. Wh;; pa'' legislation now to int-rrfPre \Vith tho next twelve months? It was br · ter to le 'YO the I-lou-:c to do the be~t it could \1, hen HF t; ~ne­arr~\ cd. I-I,, y,-ould P.nDport. the ,dlL.:ncbnc:nt of the Jeack•r of tho Oppo.(;;;ion, as it would no:. inh ·fcrc' 1. ith (-h(· Gover_._J·H,-:Jt fixi~1g up tht'ir present difiiculties, Lut \vculd pre-..-en: tl;:orr1 having a fl;~c hand to do f'Tn'- ihiDP' that -.- ould probablv nc; bo in tho best int: rests of Quocnsla;;d.

}'fr. lilTNTER: th, ca .10 to .c1iYisir>t, =~- r 'ise 'hh v 11c ~ L1 oppc.jrion to thC' -.• -hich th·" a~~~enG-nJf'nt lL'Opor- d to , <· -;·.Jrticn of. l,-'rc.'n the ,•nwnt of the c debate h3 had opr. · applic1tio!l of tlw 4 p.- r r ~nt. to any greaL•r ainount than that which '"'as i:11<·lLcF, .. t ly lT"~uircd. I-Jo was ·:'VUl cJ t~) e-r ,21 din'=. it to tho £10,CGO,':JO, here. t1lc•y had a :· vn •inc order w- ich -, apply to all future Idan .\c~~·. If it ,-yr,s .-r_ _ _l:1g to ~iY£) 4 per cent. for an:, .hiPg OY·-'l' ;;~?,001·}000, It ~.~ .• ts very TI1lH_ h y,·ors3 to gi·. c 4 per ( .-nt. for all £u loans that might folk . . Then it ~,you]d ftx~ lg a rate fc" ~uturc Ic- -i

lie h~: i bt '1 TI told 1 hat this v _ · tho nw.xi1nu. 1~ bu~ ''"h--,- d~d thev ·~mke th~ _ )~-· "..:ir r_ .,.~ ~ rL·r t c~nt '? \Vhy did ~the:-r not r2.c~~ 1 G it 5, 6, Ol: 'l, or so ~10 c _her 11Prcc:1tage? It \vas absurd to de.d Y:ith the question in this we:·. L ·. t each Loan AcJ.- c"lrry i1s ow:n rate of interest, and 7'<:•n G._nr.-:nu-': _1t 'V< .ld g f1 ·il~ i~1-struci ions lron1 +b.-, I-Iou· o, E~nd if ·,':\ :nade a nli-;b:d\:0 thc-'l had t-o · ~ .,. r fm: tlF'.: 1 io the 0lector· v I-Ie d~,:l not fro ·wh7 th Trr~asnrer •11orL-l_ { !lire! ) I( _.jislato for ·:future _\ SSQlnblie ··. But ,~.Jr f · speci -.l y ~ ho himself "ould not 1cn,vc r·ntertaint its application to the :.C2,' ;]0,000. In asking to be allow·-d to extend it byond the £10,000,000 loan, the GoYernn1ent v 2ro ar-king an un­rett.sonahln thing fro-n t~to Opposition. It \Vas all the n1ore unrE-:fl•~;Dnable y.-hen 'h~·-,r found that a Bill had alrc:~dy been e,·nt hom,_, and was now in the hands of the Agc:1t-Gcn• ral in London, before the 1-Iouse heel m opportunit.1 of Paying a sing]' wot d on tl1e mat~ ~-~r. The Governrncnt in cau{ ·:;_( h td pnJscd their BilL and print~ 1 them, a•1cl th-v had aotually become law before the,;- ever p·1w tho Chan1bcr. \~That cha--:~e had th. y of exert i .. ing t!.n discc·etion that Parlia-__ H-7nt should e::-~,--rcise i~_:_ the tra.~~sa.c ion of pub1i,J bu..;iness? The- ga:hered no~v fro111 the Pren1ior +hat In,) PadiJ.nlent th·3 financial adnccr: intiuc,lfed to the Gov<'r'uncnt that it y.-,:s nece-s~arv and advi," ~ble t~at this should b~· r1one. "Th<r had a--ke>d then1, pr:.'­viou.:-ly to t~1:1t, if they con.; ::1ert"rl it abso-­lutely nccc,·.ary. It all we-,t to show that

Ways and J1eans. [5 JULY.] TV ays and 1v1 eans. 77

the Govcrninent \Yetc cognisant of the whole Jifficulty months and uonths before the <J!ection.

The TREAScRER: That is not correct.

:Mr. HL:KTER: He took the Trr,t.ctuer's ·0\Yll \'.Ords in the CJl'l"C~l)Olld( "lC8. ..:-\._ 1-,ttcl' \Yas n.· _:oived in Brisbane I \St April fro:n the ~\L··ent-General, intin1ating that it would he absolutely necessar;·, and that such a thing­\Yo~S done in the t-:-her btates. I--lo too~tl: 1L'O Hon. the Treu·)urer's own words, and it was ·no use the Hon. the Treasurer denying it-­he would deny anything. There was no state­ment that he would not deny: it was becom­ing chronic with t.hc hon. gentleman. He would deny all things; he would even deny that he was Treasurer to suit his own pur­pose. (L,ughter.) They had t.he Han. the Trciesurer sitting before them with his Bill Eke :Th1ahomot's collin, suspended sorne\vhe1·~ _in 1nid-air; it \'\."a;:· la\'\.', and yet it was not law. He had committed himself in such a "ay that he was not even able to amtn·d a word of it. The House had to pass it just as the Government or thG caucuo hod vassed it. His own followers had to stand behind him and vote, whether it was right or wrong; or else the position was this: that the peculiar difficulty which the LXovernmont found themselves in, and which the counLry \Yas in through them, could not be o \~crco:I:._~ unh '"" they slavishly followed and ad0pted tho Bill as it had been :,,-nt homr. That' was not a posibon an: Government should put tlwm?clves in. It W8' nothing to their credit, and It was cortamly not a position that the Goverhment should put the A:":emblv in. He -intended to oppose it, bccatue he 'had con­si,tently OPl10S_Gd an extension of more th;,n the~1,.500,000 immediately requir':d for works whwh the Government were engaged in. To !Je concie,'cnt, he had to s::pport the amend­rnent.

Qnet.Lion put.

Mr. RYAN: Dcfcrp t.':o question went to n. vote, he was pleasc,i'i. that the Hon. the Pn mier r?se and gave the explanation he did, ~lthough 1t was not ba2ked up by a similar ~ .. l'~TICE· ~l'Olll _Hw r:l~r . urc~~., lt W<-l, _P_l J ,~g. ~l1· ~Cmnn1!tt0o I!l a chtr.cult po:It:o..:lJ ancl thC' C-ove rn!nen: b d al.~-J pl d 0 J.c "ns­L<•1d in a. di:C';_c-_llt po ,:f-Jn. Ii a:. ·x-:tn\d-·-­and h ~-ou}_l lika the rl'rtJ1:::>.IrLr to- kt hin1 kLov.- if it w:: a far '--that th' -B two Bilb \Vere f'.'?'nt homo -<:nne tin1c ago. l-Ie \VO~lld liko to kno-w --;.'~·hen th"·y were ---Jnt hmnc.

Th.: TKEHUJ:ER: \Vould ~ .. :·u lik:; to kno1v the hour?

:>ir. RY A?\: Ho would like to know th" ·day. Tht' _e Bilh ITI ,,st havo be _.n sent hon1e to Engl3..:ld ·w:·ilo the" o~ection \Yas on.

The TREASURER : Thcv were sent about a rnonth ago. ~

Mr. Bow~fAN : They could not reach Eng·­! and in that time.

Mr. RYAN: Parliament had no discc·etion in tho matter at all now, as the: hon. g·3ntlc­man on the front Treasury bench had de­cided that _it should be so. Han. gentlGinen i<Ittmg behmd the Government ought to con­sider their position.

The TREASURER : Would you like to know the exact -date they were sent?

Mr. RYAN: Yes.

The TREASURER (rising) : He noticed on turning- up the correspondence that there

~~·as a lo~tcr fron1 tl~e Treasarcr to the Under Secretary to th Chief Seer.- tary, and tho letter was datPd the 7th of June, 1912. That w:ts the dat•·· the two Bills were desp:1tched.

Ivlr. RYAN: It q)po,ued th"t on. the 7th ,] ane t.he Government nosted two B1lls, and 1he pc -ition appeared to be that these Bills had to be pasc9d through Parliament with­out alb?ring the cro ,-;ing of a "t" or the (lotting of an " i," and the n1mnbers sitting !Jc;>ind the GoYernment had to yote for it. That was a tnost exb·aordinary position, and the Oppo"ition were placed in the position that they had to say: "We are going- to place our foot on your getting this loan," or " we are going to allow the business to go through that has alre zdy be~n done bv the Govcrn1nent." lie dirc:t'd the ;lt­tention of hon. mcm!Jers sitting behind the Gov0rnment to the fact that on the 7th of June the Goyernrncnt sent two Bills which they guaranteed that hon. rrwn1bers opposite were going to come into tho Hous and vote for.

Mr. O'SuLLIVAK: Like lambs.

Mr. RYAN: Ho put that qu?stion to mem!Jcrs sitting behind the Government.

Mr. HuNTER: \Vhat about Labour fetters llO\V?

Mr. MoRGAK: Look after your o1vn busi-nr:-:., Never 1nind a/Jout us.

J\Ir. I{,YAl~: I-Ie -hac surpri:,,_d E:t t 1 ,3 ho;-l. n1mubor for Murilla rnaki-ag SL,~~L a re~nark. l-in thouvht \that hon. nwr11l:er l1ad so Inc in­telligence'. But perhaps that han. member was takc:J ililto the confidonce of th0 Govern­ment.

Mr. :r,_::JRGAK: \\.,.e arc not going to be dictated to by you.

Mr. HYAN: He sympathised with sup­porteu of the Government at being placed in sach a position.

l\Ir. :MoRGAN: You are not addressing- a jury now. (Laughter.)

?.lr. RYAN: He' was addressing a House y, hich ~- 1ght to bo f' in~ -lligc·nt ~3 a j ~u>, 1

, :t he did not think the hon. gentle 11an \Vas. (Langhter.) \Yhen he ~Jdrcs d a,jur~,' he ll'.ed B"g'".J.lncv:t th::t-;:, >,'_ ro rcaJon:.__,blc, and 1vL .-n he addreHed the f-Iouse he did the san1c. V/h,-_n he used unr ::,a~'}f. L~ le :' r ·-u­lilents t-J .,", jury hr~ failed, hut 1vL -::n h." l: -,;d re~sonablc ,-c:rgJ.tncn''i he ·-:_wcr -::.J, d.

IY1r. l\1oRGAX: 1.~ ou fail no"'iv.

:Mr. RY.\N: He did not think L l LilcJ with the majority of the Houc,o. He real­ised that the Government n,uct put the Bills through both Houses just as they had been introdn.ced, and tho patrioti~~l ot tho Oppo­sition was appe,~led to. He sC~plJ030d tlY'.l' would have to allow it to go thro.1gh b8-C;:tuse the leader of tiP Houco promised­and they must accept his assurance-that he would give them an opportunity of amending the provisiOns to which they objected later on.

lYir. BO\V~L\.N: If the I-Iouso t~1inks fi~.

Mr. RYA:-J: He agreed with the ka,dor of the Opposition that it was their duty to record their opinion by going to a division ag·ainst thr: inclusion of such a clause in the Bill, g·iving the GoYGrnment power to issue Treasury bills with regard to future loans, B3 a proteot and as indicating- that they did

JJfr. Ryan.]

78 Trays and ""'!Jeans. [ASSE:M:BL Y.] Way3 and J1r:a·<s.

not think that that was rlw proper thing to do. The Government had placed the House in a difficult position.

The bell indicated that the hon. member's time had expired.

Mr. RYAN: He would take a few mor<? minutes. In vie-w of the statmnent 1nad-' by the Premier, which he should have madJ earlier, and ,,·hich should hav~ be>2n en­dorsed by the Treasurer-but probably the Treasurer was under the apprehension that he would not bc there next year-they had nothing to do but record their votes, and expre,s their S}mpathy particularly with political aspirants opposite at the position they w ··re placed in, particularly tho hon. member for Muri!la, who believed what he, (Mr. Ryan) said, but he had not the intelli­gence to sit silent like some hon. 1nember8 sitting on that side. (Laughter.)

Mr. HUXHAM (Buranda) : The explana­tion given by the Premier forecast a new Loan Bill going through this session. He wished to know if such was the case.

The TREASURER: We have got ample power to borrow under the Acts already passed.

Mr. HUXHAM : He would like to know if it wns the intention of the Government to put through a Loan Bill this session to make provision for any loans that might be maturing "hortly. It appeared to him that it was not merely the question of getting OYer the prp·,ont O'Jntingency, but was the Governn1ent going to n1ako provis:on for the conyersion of lo;;.ns by introducing a Loan Bill this sc . .,ion? If s-1ch \V ·ro not, th,; ca·~ ··, he did n•1t se8 tho noc·d for rushing through the present Bills, b ~cause the Pron1ier pro­mised them that a Bill would b.~ inEoducod next ye,.r, and it would not bo a general applicati·.m, but it muPt bo dealt with from time to time. He was absolutelv onnosed to grnng any Government-m·en a' L~bour Go­' ,.,·nmont-power to go bcyc.:>d the scope of tb.c Go. Nnment for the time being. For that very reason he 'vas prepared to support the allwndtnont, not vvith any inb•ntion of ·enlhar_ a·"sing th'3 G ·Jv·_·rnrncut at tho pr.osent time. He had admitted, when speaking ves­terday, that it was necessary for tho Go'. 2rn­mont to have money to go on "·ith public works, and he intended to help them obtain it on cC'rtain conditions, but to give the G;:.·'· crnLH 1t rr1rte blanc'lw, in tho wav asked for at the present time, was most unreason­able, except it was the intention of th-e Govern·ment to bring forward a ne\V Loan Bill this session to tide them over the diffi­culty of meetir:g the loans falling duo. He smcerely hoped the Treasurer would rc•con­sider the matter. The Onnosition had helped him through at the pi·esent time-­certainly there had been some di,•<cus"ion but the Treasurer must admit that -the Op: position had helped him through. (Govern· ment laughter.)

Mr. HARDACRE : He has had a good deal of valuable criticism.

Mr. LENNON: And wJwlesome advice.

Mr. HUXHAM: It would be only reason­able for the Treasurer to accept what the Opposition were now asking. It would be a most unseemly thing for them to bind future Governments by an Act simply to

[Mr.llya1L

meet the convenience of the Goyernment for· the time being. He therefore hoped the Treasurer would accept the valuable sug­gestion of the 011position and withdraw opposition to the amendment.

Mr. HARDACRE was very glad that the· remarks he and other hon. members had made had drawn some information from the Premier. It •eemod now that the Pre-1ni0r vvas not particularly onarnourod of that proposal, so far as dealing with future loans was concerned ; but having sent the Bills home, they did not want to have them al­tered. The financial advisers in the old country had receivBd tho Loa'r Bill, and to. ha-\~e occasion to send honv.! rr~d Pay that th(-' Bill had been amended in its' passage th1·ough Parliament would rather ups·t things, as they had already been fixed up. Be quite understood there was perhaps a little disadvantage in having to do that, but thev had also learned that the proposal intended to be incorporated in the amending measure, so far as it applied to future Loan Acts, had not been advised by their financial advisers. The financial advisers had not advised that at all. They had advised the passing of the measure so far as present loans were concerned, in order to provide for emergency Treasury bills, but he did not think, under cover of trying to get something through Parliament in a hurry on the advice of tho financial advisers, the GovernmBnt should also propose a new general provision dealing with all loans that might be author­ised in the future, no matter what GoYern­ment might be in power. That was rather too much to expect. The Government re­cognised that if they passed this provision nwrely to apply to the immediately proP\I·'"d loan, the financial magnates in the old country \1 ould say, " They are in difficulties, and this is only fo1~ an en1ergency case," but the GovcrnHlent thought with the passing of a general provi,ion thcv \YO~lld s~~~r, '· Oh, this is nothing to do with thie loan. It is mnrcly a general provision." He {:0/Ir. Hard­am'<) really thx;ght that wac the rca· on for incorporatjng that provision in the prf'sent Bill. On the v1hole, he did not think it would seriously prejudice the proposed loan, or upset the situation very much. if the Government were comnelled to send homo a cable stating that "the copies of the Bill you have in your posseoeion have been all passed with the exception of the deletion of four words." The Premier stated that they had been adYiscd to incorporate the propose-d proYision to pro\rido for en1er­g<ency Treasury bills, hut ·he (Mr. Hard­·cr J T\-CIS vo"v anxious to know \.'d1cther

they advised that the same rate of interest shnuld be attcch'Jcl to tlJP short-date-d loans under the form of Tr< asury bills as had been provided for the long-dated loans under the form of debentures. He could not understand how it was possible for the Go­Yernment to get short-dated loans at 4 per .cent. if they failed to get long-dated loans m tho form of debentures at 4 per cent. They n1ust of necessity pay a higher rate for Treasury bills than for long-dated debentures.

Mr. \VIENHOLT: They will get it below par:.

Mr. HARDACRE quite understood they could get it below par, but it might be a more costly way.

The bell indicated the hon. member's time. had• expiued,

Gm·ernment Loan Acts 1910 [5 JuLY.] and 1911 Amendment Bill. 79·

Question-That the words proposed to be omitted (J.h·. Bowman's amendment) stand part of the question-put; and the Com­mittee divided:-

AYES) 30.

Mr. Allan C\Ir. Gunn Aopel Hodge B~rnes, G. P. Luke Barnes, 'IV. H. Mackay Bcbbington Macrossan Booker Morgan Bridges Paget Cain2 Robert3 Corser, B. I-I. Stevens Crawford Swayne Denham Tolmie Douglas Trout Forsyth Welsby Grant Wienholt GraY',Oll '.VlllLtn1s

Tellers: ~1r. Gray son and l.'Ir. Luke.

NOESJ 22.

Mr. Adamson Mr. Land Barber Larcombe Bertram Lennon Bowman :May Fihelly :AicCornlack Foley Murphy Hamilton O'Sullivan Hardacre Payne Hunter Ryan Huxham Th~Jdore Kirwan Vv ... instan~·.;

Tc .l ''": ~Ir. Fihe!Iy and Mr. O'Sulli . :1.

Resolv<:>d in the affirmative.

The Hou,e requned. The CHAIR'IH:t; re­ported thB resolutions.

The resolutions were agreed to.

On the motion of the TREASl:RER. it ,va,; resJlved that Bills be brought in founcl.·d on the resolutions.

GOVERNME~T LOAN ACTS 1910 A~D 1911 AMENDMENT BILL.

Fmsr A::;D SE~OND RRADilWS.

'Thi .• Bill w:1s presented b: th' TREA­SPHER, and read a first and second time.

Ooc;DHTTEE.

Clause 1-" Short titlo"-put and passed.

On clause 2, as follovls,:-

" (1.) In scdion thre" of th,2 Goveru­ment Loan Act o-f 1910 the ·words ' three pounds and t€n shillings' are repc-al8d, and t·he words ' four pounds' are inserted in lieu ther€of."

"(2.) In section thrH of the Govern­ment Loan Act of 1911 the words 'three pounds and ten shillings' are repeal€d, ,and the words ' four pounds ' are in­serted in lieu thereof."

Mr. BOWMAN wid hP did not purpos€ detaining the Committee for ,any length of time, and would merely say that he in­tended to move the 'amendments which he previously mov-ed in Committee of Ways and Means. H€ moved the omisBion of the words " four pounds" in line 10 with the view of inserting the words " three pounds fifteen shillings."

Question-That the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the elause-put; and. the Committ<'e divided:-

l.Ir. ..-Ulan App€1 I::\rne.s, G. P. .DarnE •,, \V. H. BchbiJ.gton B00kEI" Bridg\-s C:,dne (' )l',·"' r, TI. }-I. C1 a\\ ford D•2nhan1 D)ugla F'nr::o:yt~1 Gr.·nt GrL-<Y ::on Gunn

Hof!~.,­Luke \fa(>: J' l\.Iarrr ;~u ?\.Irn:1!l :\lurPhy Paget PEtrie R )bert f'teveL' S~v<- Y!lC' To1nlie Trout Welsby Wienholt V!illiams

Tell' : l\Ir. Roberts and i\1r. Williams ..

KOES, 21. l\lr. Adan1sJn

Barber Bertra1n Bowman Fihelly Foley Hamilton :Hardacre Hunter Huxh1-111 Kirwan

Mr. L:•nd Larc01nbe L:-'llllOll lYiay McCormack O'Sullivan Payne Ryan Theodore Winstanley

T,'l/Cis: Mr. Huxham and :\fr. L"lnd. R' c<olved in the affirmative.

l'.lr. BOWMA:;\1' moved the omission of "fo·u' pounds," in line 14. with the view of in-·.erting " three pounds fifteen shillings."

Question-That the words proposed to be omittccl '. mel part of tho cL use-put; and the Committee divided:-

AYE8_, ~'2.

l\fr. Allan Appel Bdrnes, G. P. Barnu, \Y. H. Bebbington Bc.,oker Bridg'-; Caine Corser, B. H. Crawford Denhan1 n0ug1as Forsyth Grant f1-rrly~~~Jn

Gunn TclLTs: ?vir. Douglas

Nir. Hodge Luke l\~"ckay

:-1('1'0 ''11

l\!oq;an :,_:'urphy Pag.t Petrie Rabfrtc:: ~tu ·n:­Swayne ToJn1ie Trout Welby Wienholt

, Willian1s and Mr. Mackay.

NOES, 21. Mr. Adflrnson

Barber Bertrarn Bowrnan Fihelly Foley Hamilton Hardacre Hunter Huxharn

, Kirwan

Mr. Land L·'trcombe Lennon :.lay 11cC~rmack O'Sullivan Payne Ryan Thc>Od0re \Vin ,f"lnley

Tellers: Mr. Barber and Mr. vvinstanley. Resolved in the affirmative. Clause put 'and passed. The House resumed. The CHAIRMAN re·

ported the Bill without amendment.

THIRD READING. The Bill was read a third time, and

ord€red to be transmitted to the Legislative. Council, by message in the usual form.

'80 Government Stock Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Govt.:rnment Stock Bill.

GOVERl\':\IENT STOCK BILL.

FIRST READING.

The Bill was prc,,ented by the TREA­SDRER, and n ctd a first tim<!.

SEcOKD RrADING.

Tho TREASDRER: I moYo that the Bill be now r!:. ~~d a :eoond tiLl e.

:Hr. RYA::'-J: I would like to have ·umc information. Of com·<:>, tho Treasur·er has no-w spoken on tho second r:Jading, but I -,~·c-:tld like to haYe ~-;rn -- inforn1ation as to

hethor this Rill can be [8.30 p.m.] anwndod in Committee; m

other ~-Yards, iR it nec?s)s:try for E8 to put it through in it;:) present forn1

·exactly?

Tho TREASURER : I am not prepared to accept amendments.

J\Ir. RYAN: That is a different thing. I .a1n asking whether it is incumbent that it should be put through in its present form in order that tho Government may be able to take advant8.ge of the Bill 'Bnt homo?

The TREASUm~n: y,.,,

)lr. RYAN: If the House amends it, it will render the Bill < nt home nugatory?

rrho TREASURER : Y _r:-~ ••

~~.21.·. RYAN: Thark ~en. I Yvish io have th : L'Cv-·c'·.d.

COMMITTEE.

Clr.c;s' 1 put and pa ,·,~d.

On clauc,,g 2-" Int-E->rpretation"-

~\lr. ll0\Vl\1AN ElOYf'd tlH~ 01111 SlOll of •· fo tr pounds" o..:1 line 13, '-ith t:w vie;·. of in -'l ting "' thrc lJOHlHJ<> lift*,- n shillings," to nut:,o it con [.:.:~ ··y'- \Yit-'l the arn_nd.ne:Dt pro:)c ,ed in the prcvio~ts Bill.

l\ir. t~lC Tre'l'"ar·cr t·J cx-pluiL ''four pv .. 1nds." lie

:~;;.~~ ncrn_f>j G<y '~lxlo l ~t~~·rfi~f_[ th'~ Opt-l~'~ position of th?. Gon:~rnnwnt -,yas regarJ to tl ·': fa ,.r P<<i.nds per t_ ntu:n per Unlluln. lie ll'"ic<l h. t clr ., ' 4 read ~s folio s :-

"It shall be la\,ful b is"'' Go,orn, m<:>nt :otock under this Act bearing in­tPrr~,t at n, r-:te not exc~"Jdinr;- four pouL-11 per centum per annum, nOt"';~,.,ith­standing that by tho Government Loan Act under which such stock is dedared to be issued the rate of interest author­iced to be paid is less than the aforesaid an1ount."

There would not be much discussion if the Treasurer made it quite clear that there would be no utility in pressing amendments, ·as if they were passed the Bill would be rendered nugatory.

The TREASURER : You want me to testify so that it shall be placed on record. (Laughter.)

Mr. RYAN: Yes.

[Han. TV. H. Barnes.

The TREASURER: The hon. gentleman who had just resumed his scat v:ould allow that ho "'ivas of a very ac ~Jn1n1odatlng· turn of mind.

::VIr. Bovv~Jj~: ""\"'fhen it suits you.

The TREASURER : He might ;ay that it had b· en ph;_.c0d there by th-8 advi( .: of tho~r Ii.r_uncial advisors in th~.· old CJlElh·y, and It vrould b~ ncct 3.ry to rf·tain it in that fonn in order to C<'lTV out their -.,.-j h~-.'3, and to agree with tb Bill that had be~n sent to the old country.

Q·""::'-3Lion-That t.\~'"- words proposeJ to be 01nitte.:l: (iJ.Ir. Bau_.:nan's amcnd~~-ent) stand part of the clause-put; and the Con11nittee divided:-

AYES, 30.

1'Ir. Allan Appel BarnFJ, Y{. H.

~~"~~i}:gton ~i~·~~~es Corser, B. H. C1·awford Iknhan1 Dou;.,,lr ... s Grant Gr~v- on Gu1ln Hodge

Tell'TS: Mr. Crawford

:\fr. Lul<e !\Iackay :·~acre·-- -.an ·.:o1 .:.al:. Murphy J!dg!:'t Petrie R'Jberts St;_ Ten s-.. .... "\ .ie

Tolmie Trout ,,,rf;l-;:by v~.,.ir-nholt "\"'\~illia1ns

and :;_vir. I\"Itcf ro' ~ .u1.

NoEs_, 21.

~\Ir ... /H1mn: 011 l'~rber B ::.rtra1n B'l\V111Cll1

Fihflly F'olc v H L- ilton

I-il:nt:: :~ H"x}:::a>1 Eir.· .n

Mr. Land Larcom be Lennon

·- G~aC"l\ o·sul1i-,_an Payne RyJ!.l '1']1e-od rr­\Vin·-,tnnl~TT

r-Jr:rs: ::_Hl·. AL"!.:nn· on and }Ir. Bertram.

Rr·colve 1 in th.," affirmative.

Claus~ 2 put and p::'SS ,'f!.

On clJus..., 3-" I~::1nc o[ GoY<:rn -~.ent ;:L.Jck authoris~J "-

.'.:_r. 130\V::lA::\f" 1noYeJ t~l8 Otnission of the -..vord~ "or nn ]er any future GoYern­n1ent Lo:1n Act " fron: lines 16 a.:Jd 17.

Quc,tion-That the words propos0d to be omitted stand part of tho clause-put; and the Com1nittoo divid;.,d :-

AYES_, 29.

Mr. Ailan Mr. Luke Appel Mackay Barnes, Vv. H. JVIacrossan Bebbington Morg;,n Booker Paget Bridges Petrie Caine Roberts Corser. B. H. Stevens Crawford Swayne Denham Tolmie Douglas Trout Grant Welsby Gray•, on Whnholt Gunn Willian1s Hodge

Tellers: Mr. Morgan and Mr. Welsby.

Gove·rnment Stock Bill. [5 JuLY.] Government Stock Bill. 81

NOES, 22. :Mr. Adatnson l\~r. Land

Barber Larcombe Bertrarn Lennon Bov;man I\fay Fihelly McCornLck Fo!By Murphy Hamilton O'Sullivan H2.rdacre Payne IIunter Ryan Huxham Theodore Kirwan Winstanley~

Tellers: :\Ir. McCormack and Mr. Theodore. Resolved in the affirmative. Clause put and passed. On clause 4--" Rate of interest"-

Mr .. BOvVMAN said this clause really ef!lbod1ed. the two provisions in connection w1t1' winch amendments had been previ­ously moved by himself, that was in refer­ence to the 4 per cont., and also that they ;tffected . future loans. He, therefore, moveo to omit the clause.

The CHAIR1L\N: The hon. member is not in order in moving to omit the cLause. He may move to amend the clause or vote against it.

Question-That clause 4 stand part of the Bill-put; and the Committee divided:-

Mr.

Mr.

Allan Appel Barne• W.H. Bebbington Booker Bridges Caine Corser, B. H. Crawford Denham Dougla< Grant Grayson Gunn Hodg•c Tell•:rs:

Adamson Barber Bertran1 Ik-wman Fihellv Foley' Gilday Han1ilton Hardacre Hunter Huxham

Mr. Caine

Mr. Luke Mackay ·Macrossan :Morgan Paget Petrie Robertc,; Stevens S•\ayne Tolmie Trout vVelsby Wienholt Wi!Jiams

and Mr. Gunn.

l\Ir .Kirwan Land , Larcombe Lennon May ~::ccorm:~,ck 0'5.:-ullivan P2yne Ryan Theodore v .... instanley

TelleTs: Mr. Hunter and Mr. Larcom be.

Resoh-ed in the affirmative.

On clause 5-" Application of Government Loan Acts"-

Mr. PAYNE said when the resolutions were _before the Committee he had stated that rt appeared to him that the Govern­ment were asking for power to saddle any future legislation that might be passed by the House, and the more he read clause '5 the more was he convinced that such was the case. He could not see the wisdom of it. He !3ould not see what benefit was to be obtamed .. He would read the clause so that the Commithr, would understand it. It was as follows:-

:' 1. Government stock issued under tlus Act Imd under a specified Govern­ment Loan Act shall be subject. in all respects to the provisions of the said 1912--G

Government Loan Act, except in so far as those provisions are modified by this Act.

" 2. The provisions of any Govern­ment Loan Act establishing a sinking fund in respect to th{) loan to be bor­rowed thereunder shall not apply to Go­vernment stock i""ued under this Act."

Under that clause the Gov{)rnment was seeking to interfere with future Loan Acts that might be- passed by Pctrliamen~. The Government were practically creatmg an Act with one hand and with the other they

were creating another Act, so [9 p.m.] that they could side-step it. For

instance, if they did not want to provide a sinking fund for any loan passed in the future, all they had to do was to take it up under that Bill, and then they side-stepped the necessity to. provide .a sinking fund. It appeared to hrm that If they pe.--;sed the clause as it stood they would be saddling future legislation with a condition which would be of no benefit to the State.

Mr. LENNON thought the Committee should vote out subc-ction (2) of clause 5, and vote it out with contumely. When the Loan Act of 1910 was pa--.sed, the then Premier took credit to himself for having instituted a sinking fund, a course which had been persistently advocated by members of the La bout• party for many years pre­viously, and now a provision was insidiously inserted in this Bill doing away with the sink­ing fund with regard to any money that might be raised in the manner .authorised by the Bill. It was an extraordinary and unwar­rantable proposal, and one which should be rejected with scorn and contempt. If the Government were going to have no regard as to how they were going to pay back any money that was borrowed, that would be a very bad advertisement for Queensland. On everv Financial Statement delivered in the House for the past fiv.o years, he and other members on that side had advocatBd the establif'hment of a sinking fund, and the Premier in 1910 took pride in the fact that he had established such a fund. Now the Treasurer, without explanation or apology, inserted a provision in this clause which would do away with that system and revert to the bad practice carried on in this Stctte for many years of not attempting to make any provision for the repayment of loans. He had in his hand two Acts paesed by tho Parliament of Victoria, one in 1906 and the other in 1909, for raising money b~­similar debentures, and those Acts made provision for a sinking fund, in the one case of -} per cent., and in the other of 1 pe? cent.

The TREASURER: VV1lat is tho terhl of their Bills?

Mr. LENNON : Thirty years.

The TREASURER: Ah! That makes all the difference-thirty years, and thes · are only for five years.

Mr. LENNON: It was all very well for the Treasurer to say by interjection that those Treasury bills or debentures were only for five years, but the Government might, under this provision, raise the whole of tho £2,500,000 they required without providing a sinking fund. They might go on obtain­ing five years' loans in the emergencies

Mr. Lennon.]

82 Government Stock Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Government Stock Bill.

they had pictured to the CommittGe that evening, and in that way wipe out the sink­ing fund, and revert to the very objection­able practic~ce which was followed prior to 1910. He entered his emphatic protest against the provision, and hoped that mem­bers on that side of the House would take some action to get it excised from the Bill.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN protested most strone,ly against this su! ,~ection, b~ Jause they hwd for many ::ear~ been sensible of the gravity of the po,-Jition usuhing from different Go­vernments floatins~ loans without making an:: provision for a sinking fund. ThL ,tatcr'-'~nt of the Trea,urer that thHe debenturH \vould havo a currency of only fiV\' yer~rs was a me1·e subterfuge. When the Tre:·\'su:r,_r m:,de loans to locc,l bodie; he insisted that th.;y should pay interest and redemption every year duri:.g the period of the loan, and why did not the Government sd the example in this matter by making provision for the repac·ment of the money they bor­rowed? He bdieved that there was a lot of specious talk when the provision for the establishment of a sinking fund was intro­duced end pas0ed, and that it was intro­duced in order to assure the country that there was a prospect of the liability in con­nection with that unpayable Great Western line being wiped out in ,,ixty years. The Treasurer had t'1at evening boasted of the surpluses he had had for three years, and the hon. gentleman wanted now to steal the ~ per cent. reserved for a sinking fund in order to have a little bigger 'Urplus at the end of the present financial year. One of the newspapers in Brisban0, which appeared to be inspired in its articles on finance, reckoned that the Great Western Railway was never going to eventuate. He had some reason for beheving that they had some foundation for sac ing so, as the paper he referred to had an article stating what the Governor's Speech was going to contain. It looked as if it was in the confidence of the Governmblt, and wanted to prepare the country for the dropping of the vV estern Railway. The Government were going to borrow money ostensibly for the construc­tion of that railway, and then he supposed they wo"ld come along presently with their big majority and say they did not want that railway, but that they wanted the .£10,000,000.

The TREA~,URER: It would be a source of great repA if the Great "Western Railway were not contihued, seeing it is already under construction.

The SECRBTARY FOR RAILWAYS: I am build­ing it at three points now, and SO miles have already been built.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN thought it would be time enough to build that railway twenty­five or thirty years hence, as the monPy could be spent to far greater advantage in building railways nearer the coast. The linP from Blair Athol to the Northern Railway would settle more people than could be settled in the far West.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: You are romancing.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: If hon. members read the reports of Surveyor Phillips and Geolo­gist Jack, they would learn something of

[.ilf r. Lennon.

the resources of the district to which he alluded. If a loan was for a term of forty :\ c~ars, provision should be made to redeem it. He did not think ! per cent. was s~f­ficient, u,s it would take sixty years to retire a loan at that rate.

Tho TRE.\SURER : Our provision will r~main for as long as thP loan is floated.

Mr. O'SULLIY~_:,_::\f: Yes, but he 1vas afra-id that prcs:3ntly tbe Gov,-.rnment would ~be attacking the whc 1' hing. He should have something to say on the Financial Statchlent -,bout tho way in y,-hich the fir.,,>~ncEc9 "ere being manipulated so as to show only a very s>uaJl cm·plus. U nfor­tun&toly, • hon. mewber· clid not seem to realise the gravity of the slt'Jacwn.

Mr. P A Y;\TE thought it was "up " to the Trf"..tsurer to give tiwn1 some 1nforn1at1on .on the point. l"'hen Mr. Kidston was Prc'I!Ier he used to rise in his phce an l tell hon. members that the reprcc ,,nhtives of the people were safeguarded by having control of the purse; but a simple-looking clause like this appeared to take away from the repreoentativ~s of the people the r:~')wer of dealing with all future loan• ~ It '""s a very bad thing indeed. The Treasurer sh_o:'ld offer some exnlanation of v,,hv the provision was inserted \n the Bill. vC-h:,- should the Government attempt to pass legic>lation to apply to future Governments? If they brought in legislation to suit thLir own time, it ,hould be sufficient. Tho ti:ne might ~orne when what he was now s.:cying in his humble way-{Jaughter)-would be borne out.

Mr. BOWMAN moved the omission o£ subclause (2).

Mr. RYAN was s;.~rpr: .. ed that the Treas­urer had net ri&,'TI to make some explana­tion, ::-2eing that a n1e211ber of the standing of the hon. mvaber for Herbec't had made : ucb a strong prot£,,t again' t the inclusion of the subclause. He beliFW' ~~ that the Trea-,~urGr "r\ as going to offer somG explana­tion, and he would ajk him at the same time to inform the Comuittee whether the amount to be paid into the sinking fund at the end of June in re'·peot of. money already borrov, ed had yet been paid.

The TREASURER said the provisions of the various Acts had always been complied with in the matter to which the hon. mem­ber for Barcoo referred. Yvith regard to the amendment moved by the leader of the Oppc .. 'oition, the cases quoted by the hon. member for Herbert and this one were not ancJogous. The hon. gentleman quoted Vic­tori""; but in answer to an interjection he stated that the terms of the Viotorian Treasury bills were thir·ty years. ~ It would be noted that here the period could not exc,·ed five years, and if the m thod the Government preferr.,{-namoly, getting the money on long terms-were carried out, then the provision for the sinking fund would be adhered to. In the case of mon Jy raised for a short period, however, it wac not con­sidered wise or necessary to have it put in.

An OPPOSITION MEMBER : You don't want to pay your way.

Mr. LENNON considered the explanation given by the Treasurer not satisfactory, in­asmuch as while the Victorian bills were for

Adfournment. [9 JULY.]

a longer term than was proposed under this Bill, yet there was the right to shorten the term to twenty years. It was a very bad thing to start the system of doing away with a sinking fund, even if money was bor­rowed for only five years. A sinking fund of ~ per cent. for five years would amount

to a considerable sum towards [9.30 p.m.] the reduction of tho debt; and

it was a bad thing to start on an evil C<''1i3C of this "crt. Vih~n onn the Gov,_,fninJnt could get n1onry for fLve .2- ears without the obnoxious principle of paying off any of it, did anybody imagine there would be a:w intention of redeeming the loan at the end of the five years? The Hon. the Treasurer knew very well that it would hav<' to be borrowed again; and he hoped the leader of the Opposition would press the amendment to a division.

Question-That the words proposed to be -Dmitt.ed (_,l:Ir. Bowman's u:.-~,:o',·>lnlcnt to omit subclause 2) stand part of the clause-put; .and the Committee divided:-

AYbS, 28. 2\Ir .. fiJian

Appel Barnes, V'l. H. B2b.t ~ngton Bridses Cain'--Corc.Lr, B. H. Crawford Denham Douglas Forsyth Grant Grayson Gunn

Mr. Hodge Luke l\1ackay ~Morgan Paget p, ~_.rie R0bert• SttJ··,·ens s.,.,,,.ayne Tolmie Trout \VelE"bY '\Vienholt \Villie·.n·

'Pell6,·s: r,Ir. Allan aad 1\Ir. Bebbington.

l\!r. Adamson Barber Bertram Bow1nan Fihelly Fole': Gilday Hamilton Hardarre Hunter Huxham Kirwan

L nl L. rcnm'Je Lennon May )IcCorr: _ "';Ck ::u;phy O'Sullivan p_yL, Ry,m Theodore "\Vinstan1ey

Tellers: Mr. Land and Mr. Payne.

Resolved in the affirmative. Clau,,q put and passed.

The House resumed. The CHAIRMAN re­ported the Bill without amendment.

THIRD READING. On the motion of tlw TREASURER, the

Bill was read a third time, .and ordered to be transmitted to the Legislative Council, by message iu the usual form.

The PREJHIER: I beg to move that the House, at its rising, do ,adjourn till Tuesday at 3 o'clock p.m.

Question put and pas•<ed.

ADJOURNMENT. The PREilHER: I move that the House

do now adjourn. The business on Tuesday will be the resumption of the debate on the Address in Reply.

The House adjourned at twenty-five minutes to 10 o'clock, , ·

Joint Committees. 83