debate en histor and theory

8/12/2019 Debate en Histor and Theory

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From: [email protected]: Mon, 17 May 2004 11:13:05 ED!"#$ect: %e: &arrati'e an( )riti*"e

+n a mea-e (ate( 5704 /:02:41 M, eorey %o#ert rite:

o narrati'ie i not necearily to ictionalie. +t i to chooe a mo(eo (ico"re hich ermit one to ay or tell certain thin- a#o"t reale'enteecially the (omain o 8action8 an( 8aion8in a ay that othermo(e o (ico"re, "ch a ar-"ment, (o not.8

E9actly. "t ho (oe HW *"are thi tatement ith hi many re'io"aertion that hitorical narrati'e are eentially ictional;

eorey %o#ert

< eorey %o#ert: he ro#lem i ith the term 8iction,8 + "oe. +ha( "e( it oten in the ene o 8in'ention8 => ?atin in-ere in or(er toin(icate the element o 8contr"ct8 in a narrati'ie( =or torie( acco"nto hat ha( #een taAen a real e'ent. + ante( to in(icate the e9tent tohich a narrati'ie( acco"nt o real e'ent ine'ita#ly a((e( to the(ecrition o e'ent the Ain( o ormal element tyically o"n( inliterary an( mythical torie =o"n( there, #"t not in real lie, ince noet Bor 8ort,8 to "e rooA terminolo-yC o real e'ent (ilay theo"tline o a tory. he tory element ha'e to #e a((e( on in acco"nt oreal e'ent. Many eole tooA my "e o iction to mean 8ima-inary8 or8ma(e "8 rather than 8in'ente(.8 n( + can har(ly o#$ect to that ince that

"a-e i more common than the ene o 8in'ention.8 "t + a thinAin- oentham notion o iction, i.e., a hyothei or the Ain( o thin- e -etin En-lih la hen e eaA o the cororation a a 8le-al iction.8 What+ ante( to (o a -et o"ti(e or #eyon( =or #eore the actiction(ichotomy a a ay o (itin-"ihin- #eteen hitorical an( literarynarrati'e. &ot all literary literary ritin- i ictionaliin- =in theene o maAin- ima-inary, mot hitorical ritin- =inoar a it aireto narrati'iation i ictionaliin- =in the ene o a((in- meanin- tohat otherie ihe to a or a trai-htorar( (ecrition o reale'ent.


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rooA terminolo-yC o real e'ent (ilay the o"tline o a tory.8 item to me that e contantly li'e o"r li'e a i e ere in torie, tho alot o the them are mi-hty h"m(r"m. here i (ont ant to maAe a har(i'i(e #eteen the ay thin- really are an( the ay e taAe or interreto"r li'e, ince h"man lie =8#io8, not 8oe8, a orte-a "t it i

ractically interretation all the ay (on, an( thi mean torie=torytellin-, i yo" liAe irt an( oremot.

the imlet ay o analyin- thi oint i to oc" on the "roi'ene oo"r li'e. that aect can #e o'er(one, #"t it certainly central, at the'ery leat a a cr"cial comonent o intentional action. not that thea'era-e lie i a in-le tory, i ho"l( ay. i an a"to#io-raher maAeit into one, hay(en hite ill -et her

#ill ecAhiloohy

ree( cFrom: Donal( rooA >(#[email protected]"Date: !at, 22 May 2004 0/:11:1/ G0/30!"#$ect: %e: &arrati'e an( )riti*"e

+n a mea-e (ate( 51704 Hay(en White rite

8"t + a thinAin- o entham notion o iction, i.e., a hyothei orthe Ain( o thin- e -et in En-lih la hen e eaA o the cororation aa 8le-al iction.8 What + ante( to (o a -et o"ti(e or #eyon( =or

#eore the actiction (ichotomy a a ay o (itin-"ihin- #eteenhitorical an( literary narrati'e.8

reco-nition o the clear ene in hich a cororation =or e9amle i aiction eem to me to #e a cr"cial te toar( (itin-"ihin- hitory rom=mere torytellin-. "t + thinA e nee( to -o a te "rther. +M i, inthe rele'ant ene, a iction #"t + (o not thinA that tellin- the tory o+M i hitory ritin-, hoe'er reoni#ly, comreheni'ely, etc, "ch atory may #e tol(.+M i, in my on acco"nt o the matter, an item o the cororation Ain(.he item (oe not e'ol'e: it i merely "#$ect to more or le ran(om'iciit"(e. What e'ol'e, an( thereore ha a hitory, i the c"lt"ralAin( that e call the cororation. hi Ain( ha e'ol'e( thro"-h theimerect imitation o the meme =the #eha'iorinconte9t #y mean ohich ne an( 'ariant item o the cororation Ain( are -enerate(, an( arethen "#$ecte( to the re"re o acci(ent an( en'ironment.

Donal( rooA
mailto:[email protected]:[email protected]


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(itinction #eteen eect =on the co"ntry an( "roe =hitorian moti'ein ritin- a#o"t a me-ae'ent liAe etty#"r-.

o# %oen

From: [email protected]: Fri, 2K May 2004 01:35:2K ED!"#$ect: %e: &arrati'e an( )riti*"e

+n a mea-e (ate( 52604 5:1K:0/ M, William ecA rite:

8-. ro#ert tatement eem to me e9cellent an( it ha the a((e(a('anta-e o callin- orth a 'ery interetin- reone rom h. hite. thereare a -reat many thin- to coni(er here: i( liAe to icA o"t $"t one,hite claim that real lie contain no torie: 8... no et Bor ort, to"e rooA terminolo-yC o real e'ent (ilay the o"tline o a tory.8

it em to me that e contantly li'e o"r li'e a i e ere in torie,tho a lot o the them are mi-hty h"m(r"m. here i (ont ant to maAe a har(i'i(e #eteen the ay thin- really are an( the ay e taAe or interreto"r li'e, ince h"man lie =8#io8, not 8oe8, a orte-a "t it iractically interretation all the ay (on, an( thi mean torie=torytellin-, i yo" liAe irt an( oremot.

the imlet ay o analyin- thi oint i to oc" on the "roi'ene oo"r li'e. that aect can #e o'er(one, #"t it certainly central, at the'ery leat a a cr"cial comonent o intentional action. not that thea'era-e lie i a in-le tory, i ho"l( ay. i an a"to#io-raher maAe

it into one, hay(en hite ill -et her8

o ill ecA:Well, that i the oint that i (e#ate( #y eole liAe Da'i( )arr an( a"l%icoe"r, hether hitorical rocee or an in(i'i("al h"man lie mi-ht(ilay the characteritic o a toryith a lot line, coor(ination oen( ith #e-innin-, an( o on, or hether e ha'e to maAe thee roceeinto torie in or(er to -et a hol( on them a meanin-"l. o #e "re, omeeole may try to li'e their li'e on the mo(el o torie they ha'e #eentol( or rea( in early liethi i a too in the no'el rom )er'antethro"-h Ma(ame o'ary to ?or( Iim, not to mention Wa'erley an( Han )ator.o'aryme i, i + am not mitaAen, the (el"ion that one lie can #eli'e( a i it ere a romance. &o one ha any tro"#le reco-niin- that theAin( o torycoherence o"n( in myth, a#le, an( airy tale i aihL"lillment or an9iety antay, #"t hen they come "on the ameattern in a reallie tory or a hitory, they are incline( to #elie'e ita tr"e. "t ho Ano . . .; hanA or the comment.

Hay(en White


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From:[email protected]: Fri, 2K May 2004 01:13:2/ 0700!"#$ect: &arrati'e an( )riti*"e

Donal( rooA concetion o the -enerati'e #ai o c"lt"ral hitory i

en-a-in- an( elcome at thi time hen certain intellect"al tren( lea( to(enial that e can in( any minimal #ai or "n(ertan(in- a common, #"thitorically(ierentiate(, h"manity. Hoe'er, + thinA hi 8memetic8e9lanation o c"lt"re -enerati'e or e'ol"tionary rincile i lae(#eca"e it i roote( in a (enial that there i a (itincti'elyanthroolo-ical *"ality =not en$oye( #y other animal in o"r mean o-eneratin- c"lt"re.


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torie =myth;, or erha that hitory mi9e myth an( ome Ain( ocientiic Anole(-e in it on (itincti'e ay. + thinA it imortant tonote that any e9lanatory rincile a'ore( #y hitorian ill alay e'erentail a mi9 o l"ci( cience an(, in it mean o narrati'erereentation, ara(o9ical =none9lanation.


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conte9t.

hee (e'eloment o"n( o"r etern ene o hitoricity. he tra(itionala"thor o myth, or o i-"rati'e 8art8 create( or a rit"al conte9t, arecreati'e eole ho contin"ally rei-"re the acre( cene or their

comm"nitie. "t they are "na#le to (itin-"ih the acre( o#$ect ocomm"nal attention, or the aarently "ernat"ral #ein- incarnate in theacre( o#$ect, rom the cene on hich it aear, an( they are th" "na#leto i-"re their on hitoricity #eca"e they ha'e no in(een(ent art cene.While the "ernat"ral #ein- i-"re( in myth an( correon(in- 8art8 i not,at the time o the myth tellin-, reent to the comm"nity, myth a"methat the "ernat"ral aear eio(ically in thin-i-"re on the in-"larcomm"nal cene that i eternally i-niicant. h", myth an( rit"al (o notrea(ily (itin-"ih re'elation rom comm"nion, i.e. hitoricity rom"#itin- tr"ct"re.


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claim to rely on the act, can #e-in to thinA an( tell torie oclaicim or mo(ernim, tra-ic arrior or #icycle, itho"t the hel othe artit thoe eole hoe orA are rimarily (ei-ne( to imre "ith their hitorical no'elty or aroriatene, ince they ha'e no moreractical "nction. May#e intea( o ittin- c"lt"ral hitory '. art

hitory an( locatin- all henomena "n(er the ormer r"#ric, a rooA (oe,e ho"l( -i'e more attention to ho artit o#er'e c"lt"ral or ethicalhitory an( in t"rn ro'i(e orA that tentati'ely mo(el or anticiate thenat"re o their on hitoricity an( then, in t"rn, e can looA at hohitorian an( other o#er'e an( rereent thee re'elation. We mi-htthen trancen( the "tati'e conlict #eteen art an( hitory, the toli#erate( orin- o rit"ally#o"n( ethetic, #y (e'eloin- ome Ain( ointe-rate( hitory o the chan-in- an( hitoriciin- ethetic o thelat e tho"an( year. hi o"l(, + #elie'e, allo " to maAe omecontri#"tion to "rtherin- the coe or ree(om o h"man cience an(creati'ity.

hi ill taAe " to the *"etion o hether an( ho to taAe the etheticerio"ly a a "n(amental, or -enerati'e, element o the h"man, omethin-it eem rooA (oe not ant to (o.


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tory, an aolo-etic tory, a orenic tory, a airy tory =etc on theother. +t i art o the cot =i yo" liAe o thi acco"nt o the(itincti'ene o hitorical torie that they can only roerly #e tol(a#o"t Ain(. hey can not #e tol( a#o"t the item o a Ain(. hi i#eca"e, altho"-h item may ell chan-e in interetin- ay, they (o not

e'ol'e a Ain( e'ol'e.

Many eole are acinate( #y item o inn"mera#le c"lt"ral Ain(, an( areea-er to tell torie o many ort a#o"t thee item. My oint i not thatthi im"le ho"l( #e reite(. +t i rather that torie a#o"t item (onot *"aliy a hitorie merely #eca"e or e9amle they ay reect"lattention to a chronolo-ical or(er o e'ent, an( interret them ithin a-enerally ca"al inerential rame.

+n act, torie a#o"t the item o hich it i contit"te( are cr"cial tothe contr"ction o the hitory o a Ain(. Ho (i( a 'ariant item arie;

Why ere the meme that ere reco-nie( a reoni#le or it -enerationo ea-erly coie( #y other, or ele re"(iate(, or i-nore(;

I later t"rn more e9licitly to art. He rite:

hi ill taAe " to the *"etion o hether an( ho to taAe the etheticerio"ly a a "n(amental, or -enerati'e, element o the h"man, omethin-it eem rooA (oe not ant to (o.

Whether e can or cant #e reconcile( o'er thi ill ro#a#ly t"rn on hatI mean #y ethetic. he (einition + oer o art an( orA o art

in the aer rt Hitory; are "ch that itho"t art there o"l( #e noc"lt"re, hether animal or h"man. here i no ay to -et more "n(amentalthan that, a#o"t art. ="t o co"re, + (ont "e the or( ethetic, an(erha that i the ticAin- oint;.

Donal( rooAFrom: 8Nicente Do#ror"Aa8 >'icente.(o#ror"[email protected](.ac."ADate: "e, 4 May 2004 13:25:11 G0100!"#$ect: %e: Hay(en White

Hello all,

%e-ar(in- H White lat comment + o"l( liAe to a(( my oinion ina ene all that i h"man can #e re-ar(e( a hitorical rom anhitorio-rahical oint o 'ie i.e. a hitory o (i'ine ro'i(ence ioi#le i "n(ertoo( a hitory o ho men han(le(, ro("ce(, rea( etc.thi i(ea.

From the #elie'er oint o 'ie, on the other han(, a hitory


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o the action o (i'ine ro'i(ence i o co"re oi#le =i not elcome,#"t (i'ine ro'i(ence a a "ernat"ral a-ent recl"(e #ein-8hitorio-rahe(8 =i thi i a correct ay o (ealin- ith Neynecate-orie.

Oo"r incerely,

Nicente Do#ror"AaFrom: #ra(ley nitin >#.nitin@"*.e(".a"Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 10:16:41 G1000!"#$ect: Hitory a an interretati'e (ico"re

Dear ll,+( liAe to thanA Hay(en White or hi lat mea-e, i o"n( it 'eryill"minatin-. a loly =an( airly yo"n- ot-ra( i may eem, at time,"ll o #l"ter an( a--er, #"t im ell aare at the e9tent o my

i-norance. +m eecially -la( Mr White "e the term interretati'e(ico"re. !ome month a-o there a a (e#ate on thi ite, o hich i aa art, concernin- hitory a a oetic cience, i "e( thi term#aically or lacA o a #etter one, a lacA that i thinA i "lille( *"itea(e*"ately #y interretati'e (ico"re. +m -la( too that he oint o"tho narrati'e an( criti*"e are not necearily olar ooite =an( tothinA that it i my -eneration $o# to thinA " o"t o ("alim, hat a(iaointment i m"t #e . + -"e hen the term hitoricalcontr"ction i "e( one =i.e me i incline( to thinA o an i(ealiteentially reeloatin- entity, im -la( to ee that "ch talA (oe nota"tomatically lace " in the rariie( ether. + alo -"e that hen

hitory i e*"ate( ith torie or narrati'e the ecter o antayrear all too *"icAly into 'ie, i thinA the term interretati'e(ico"re a'oi( "ch ro#lem.My aolo-ie a ell to any hilooher o hitory ho ere oen(e( #ymy comment, i ha'e tho"-ht har(er an( ee my mitaAe.Finally a to Mr White *"etion o the hitoricity o the h"man con(itioni, or one, oer an emhatic ye, the h"man con(ition i comletely""e( ith it hitoricity. +n to(ay a-e no one can eaA erio"ly o"ni'erality anymore,thoe hitorian ho (o talA in term o h"mannat"re an( "ni'eral ahitorical cate-orie, (o not "n(ertan(, or (o nottaAe erio"ly eno"-h, the "ll imlication o o"r (iciline.ro'ocati'ely yo"rra(ley &itin

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