creative report # 6

8/7/2019 Creative Report # 6

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Evidence for Review: Susan

Fitzpatrick p. 3 IntervIews conducted as a basIs

for her forthcoming review of the investigation:

Tim Collins, Andy Hewitt, Monika Vykoukal.

The End p. 16 Some answers, unresolved

questions, still looking for the coal.

Colophon: edItor :Monika Vykoukal

contrIbutors to thIs Issue: Susan Fitzpatrick.

contact:Monika Vykoukal, t 07967230880,

e: [email protected]

GraphIcdesIGn: Jens Strandberg and Pål Bylund.

INDEX Creative Report # 6 | April 9, 2011 | investigating regeneration through art

FOR OUR FINAL PUBLICATION, PREVIOUS REPORTS, AND MORE SEE:WWW.BLACKCOUNTRYCREATIVEADVANTAGE.ORG.



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These are ediTed transcripts o interviews with three o the key actors within Black Country creative advantage. The

frst is the result o two conversations with the project’s curator, Monika Vykoukal.

The firsT happened in October 2010 at the Market Stall in West Bromwich which was the central hub and contact

point or residents o West Bromwich to encounter the work that had been collated. Maureen Neal, a resident

o West Bromwich, passed by the stall during the interview to leave a sketch she had done o St Michaels and All

Angels Church in West Bromwich High Street (the sketch is included in Creative Report #5). I have included

some o her reections on history and regeneration in the Black Country in the hope that they contextualise some

o the discussion Monika and I had about the role o the market stall in the project.

The second of the interviews I did with Monika took place in December 2010 in Manchester. In addition to

speaking to Monika, I interviewed Tim Collins, ormer Associate Dean at the School o Art & Design, Universityo Wolverhampton, initiator o Black Country creative advantage. And Andy Hewitt, artist and lecturer at the

School o Art & Design. Whilst Tim let the University a ew months ater the start o the project, and Andy was

there in the capacity o advisor, it is my hope that the inclusion o their thoughts provides some engaging context

or the reader to think through the wider implications o the project.

i am currenTly a reelance researcher, I am interested in looking at how creativity is discursively constructed by

dierent interest groups, particularly in the context o attempts to “regenerate” or otherwise re-imagine post-

industrial place. My recent work has looked at the communicative ethics o the Liverpool Capital o Culture year.

These interviews orm part o a wider project which seeks to examine how the project constituted the public

sphere.

Manchester, England March 2011

Introductionby Susan Fitzpatrick

Coal Miners Pension Fund: Sandwell Centre, Mall 2 looking towards Queens Square, 5.5.1971.



3

SF: This is a quote rom the paper you wrote about your earlier project 3 Rivers 2nd Nature: ‘We were interested

in how the regulatory interests defned the problems and their potential range o solutions.’(1) To what extent was

West Bromwich understood as a problem?

TC: Problems are the domain o engineers, scientists, planners, architects, they solve problems. Artists are

cultural practitioners, we preer to think about opportunities and constraints that are present in any system, or

place particularly as it undergoes change. [...] In my own artwork, we traditionally moved rom the perspective o

‘What are the issues and the opportunities?’, ‘Are there latent opportunities that no-one is advocating or, or canwe intervene, make a contribution to public perception and value, in a meaningul way?’.

As Associate Dean and the project lead at the time, going into West Bromwich to work with Longhouse/

Multistory at the request o the British Arts Council, I had a clear sense that there was a lack o civic discourse

about change; and the issues with The Public were well publicized. Here was a community in conict over

regeneration.The Director o Multistory, Emma Chetcuti, and the Longhouse Arts Manager Chloe Brown were

great! Their organization was hived o rom The Public. Longhouse/Multistory is the programmatic remnant

o the internationally recognized Jubilee Arts which was led by Sylvia King, beore she got involved with the

regeneration project which became The Public.

It was clear coming in that we were going to be engaging systems, communities and interests that were embeddedin complicated changes that weren’t satisying anyone. The question in my mind was: Could we as artists, curators

and researchers working within a university setting, allied with a key community partner, do something that had

a mid- to long-term impact on a changing community, on a redeveloping community? Could we have a positive,

creative eect on the people, the place and the things that defne it? Within every redevelopment, there are

opportunities and constraints. So what are the aesthetic opportunities that can be pursued, what can be enabled,

who do we ally ourselves with? These are the key questions. We were very pleased when Monika agreed to come

to the Midlands rom Scotland; she showed a rigour and a depth o knowledge about theory and practice in

regeneration.

So I wasn’t sure about the details o West Bromwich, but the act that the university was to be partnered with

an embedded organisation with a 20 year history, and we had the right research ellow told me there was good

potential. I spent a bit o time with Monika when she frst came, we realised that the discourse o development

was hyper-fxated on the development product and redevelopment utures and most o the public realm results

– and changes to the everyday lie o people using the town centre weren’t eective. Although The Public intends

to contribute to both public and private realm it is a complicated, maybe a conicted, contribution. So there was

potential in that place, with the Multistory/Longhouse relationship and Monika as our University researcher to

do something good there.

TC: I was only minimally involved in the actual project, Monika came in rom April, and I was out by July, so I

was counting on Multistory to help embed her, and on Andy Hewitt to help mentor her. Monika had a lot on

quickly, but she is amongst the best I know, she is very thoughtul and inormed about public art, planning and

Tim Collins,Wolverhampton, November 2010



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regeneration. Whether there were some community people involved and some discussions, I’m not sure. These

are key questions. [...]

TC: [...] The other thing is that getting a critical handle on this work is complicated, it’s very process oriented

a traditional art object sits in the middle o a gallery ... you know where the art object is, you know what you are

looking at, you know more or less what you are to experience and think about, you just kind o get on with it. But

with this kind o work, it oten has relatively invisible material boundaries, it has temporal boundaries that defne

social interaction, because it has occurred over an extended temporal period, is very hard to interrogate, so that

creates a critical problem, or most art world people… In my own work I’ve looked at Grant Kester, he talks about

dialogic art, indications o empathetic exchange, he talks about indications o social transormation. Suzanne

Lacy is another artist who writes about public art. Suzanne talks about projects like this that are process oriented,

the need or artists to state their intent, to actually tell you what you are looking at and what is the duration o

what you are looking at and what did she intend to do. She interrogates the question o imagination, how do you

evaluate the depth o imaginative engagement in the challenge at hand. At which point, ater it’s all done, artist,

critic and audience alike, you can come and say ‘ok, you intended this, this happened, is that good art or bad art,

a relative success, a brilliant ailure or simply o the mark?’ The best o the new critics give us pointers on how

we might move the discourse about dialogic public practice orward. It’s an alternative to traditional aesthetics.

SF: What is strategic knowledge in West Bromwich?

TC: Strategic knowledge or me is either intellectual concepts, symbols or experiences that re-shape what

we understand about places and things. Concepts inorm perception this allows us to think about normative

experience in new ways, with potential to aect value. [To quote] Paul Valéry, ‘To see is to orget the name o the

thing one sees.’ So, in a place like West Brom where the industrial past is so overwhelmingly strong; the questions

are what is the idea, the concept, image or metaphor that is going to bring orward, or make a small contribution

to a new reality? [...] I think the experimental team that was in place, there may be metaphors that have come

out o this … I’ve read a lot on the website, but I haven’t been able to interrogate it to a level o detail. Monika’s

presence is very personal, very one on one at that stall, and the question is whether there were enough publicevents where at least some o these metaphors could be tested. [...] Have any o Monika’s artworld relationships

‘stuck’ in West Bromwich? Was there a transer o ideas and relationships that has a duration beyond the project?

I would argue that these social relationships are essential to the way that public artists work. There are structural

approaches that have been outlined by people who talk about analogies and dominant metaphors, and getting

them to work in new ways. The question is how do you make the leap? I think The Public, the building was intended

to be a material maniestation o a new metaphor, a creative way. An amazing investment in art-inrastructure that

should have/could have ormalized creative work with people in a public setting. Monika’s work on Black Country

creative advantage, was intended to ocus energy back onto the place and the everyday lie o the people o West

Bromwich.

(1) Racar Canadian Art Review 2010 Vol 35 no 1: 73- 85. For more inormation on the project see e.g. http://

3r2n.collinsandgoto.com

[...]



5

Andy Hewitt, Wolverhampton, January 2011

SF: I you could just talk through

your involvement in Black

Country creative advantage,

were you involved beore

Monika was involved?

AH: No. The only reason I

became involved was because

Tim let, and they must havethought well, it was Tim’s

project, he was very close to

it, I didn’t have anything to do

with it, so I think the idea must

have come up because I’ve got

some sort o similarities in terms

o practices, and I’m the only

person across the road who’s

got this type o set o interests.

So they asked me to provide

some support otherwise it mightbe seen as: ‘Who else is she

connected to in the school?’

SF: Right, so how did you eel

about that at the time?

AH: I thought it was really

exciting, because I’m interested

in this type o practice and I think

it should be more represented interms o what goes on in the art

world. In terms o the mentoring

role, I didn’t see it as something,

I was just there or advice, I

think, and it became clear to me

rom early on that Monika had

a plan about where she wanted

to drive this to, which might

have been dierent to what Tim

originally thought because he’s

got dierent interests, land art,

a set o strong environmental

issues. But Monika soon made it

clear that she was interested in a

socio-political set o questions

around culture-led regeneration.

Really I’ve just been in the

background I suppose, and i she

needs any opinions on anything,

I can provide that. I should saythat the rest o the time, I’m an

academic, I teach here 0.5, the

other part o the week I’m doing

my own practice [with Freee, the

art collective o Dave Beech,

Andy Hewitt and Mel Jordan],

doing a PhD.

[...]

SF: You’ve seen the original ArtsCouncil unding application.

There are issues that might be

interesting to reect on rom the

point o view o your practice,

that strike me about that

document. Basically it seems

that the original aims o the

project were broadly speaking

to address social and political

issues, publicly, do you think

that the project provided that

orum? And who did it provide

that orum or i it did achieve

that?

AH: I think, it’s this idea about

publics isn’t it, I mean, who is

the public o anything? From

my own experience trying

to develop an audience, an

interested audience around

anything we do, is a challenge.

So I think in terms o access to

the questions and access to

Monika’s project, I thought it

was a very, very open process,

and I think that came down to

her being there and manning that

stall and making hersel open to

conversations. I mean, to createthat sort o drop-in centre, it’s a

real commitment and a terriying

thing to do, but its almost like a

orm o being, what’s the word,

not vulnerable, but she sort o

laid hersel open in a very very

public spirited sort o way, more

so than you’d ever get to see any

other sort o public ocial in

town and o course that is going

to happen i you set out to be astall holder, in a generally very

public space. [...] It’s only a

particular community that visits

that part o the market obviously.

I mean, we are always going to

fnd ways o fnding weaknesses

within any strategy to reach a big

audience, but I think that is what

she managed to do was to fnd a

good strategy to do that, to see

what happened. I don’t know

what her expectations were

about the ability to reach a lot

o people, but I think she must

have thought this was possibly

the only way is to embed

yoursel in or a little bit and

get to understand things rom

that sort o, prolonged research

period. [...] In terms o being, it

[the newsletter] being a orum, a



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space, a sphere, or critical discussion about what is

going on in West Bromwich, again, I’m not 100% sure

as yet ... takes place as to how much o the activity,

the discussion was critical and how much o it was

conversational and convivial.

SF: How did The Public fgure in the project to your

mind?

AH: I think it was a spectacle. It was always in

everyone’s minds, all the artists would take a look

at it and I think it was good that Monika decided to

use it or the fnal symposium event, we were witness

to its ineectual space or having a discussion in

because o all the noise rom downstairs!

SF: So the fnal symposium was in there.

AH: And it did eel tragic. But there we were

reecting on the problems in one o the problems in

West Bromwich!

SF: What about your perspective on it yoursel?

AH: I think it was a mistake, and I think the hyperbole

that culture can be this driver in regeneration is just

one o those that took a grip early on with New

Labour and I think that’s why people are so keen touse that as a way o trying to aect change in clearly

very deprived areas.

SF: What about people’s views o art, non-artists’

views o art as a result o that building, how do you

expect people to engage in art practice when that

building is there, and that amount o money has been

spent?

AH: I I lived in West Bromwich I would be urious

about it. Whether you are an artist or a citizen, you’d

be saying how could this have happened? What are

they trying to do to us here? OK you could sort o

say, well what they are trying to do is to put us on the

map and bring in investment, it’s quite an expensive

and clumsy way o doing it, and seemingly a waste

o money. I don’t know what ordinary people think

about what art is, but I think a lot o people still think

it’s something that it is an exclusive type o activity

and not or them. No matter what you do with it, so I

think it can never be an eective way o trying to deal

with serious social economic issues because o the

nonsense attached to art itsel.

[...]

SF: Going back to Black Country creative advantage,

could you comment on that initial aim o ‘the social

and political impacts o research-based art practice

extend into communities’. That’s what the original

grant application sought to do with this project.

Would you just reect on whether or not that

happened frst o all with this project.

AH: I certainly think it did. I think Monika pulled

out all the stops in terms o her visibility and her

presence and her openness with this particular

project. Maybe I should be more reective on theidea o ‘being there’ because that’s not necessarily

the be all and end all to this question is it, because

presence, it can be a very passive thing as well, on a

project. What I liked about it was that Monika was all

the time trying to generate this public sphere around

the debates, that or me is where it is really clear, and

she was always looking to generate conversations

with people about the set o problems in the town.

And I don’t think that happens very oten with art

projects, because they tend to be, sometimes theyare a little bit too concerned with art interests.

Monika comes rom quite an activist base I think, she

doesn’t get conused in terms o aesthetics, anything

else, I think her interest in art is rom a very critical

perspective, so or me it is a really good example

o what an artist can do, when given licence to be

somewhere with some unding. She wasn’t looking

to... she was open, she didn’t have answers, she was

looking to ask questions and she was critical and at the

same time she wasn’t trying to manage expectations

and say how things should be and I think sometimes

art agencies, commissioners, quangos whatever they

may be, are sometimes have got or become very

concerned about causing controversies and dissent,

and I don’t think Monika was ever concerned about

that, I think she saw it as her role as an artist or

curator, to engage people in open critical discussion

about things that need to be done, what needs to

be done.

SF: With the Arts Council, the idea o constructing



7

the identity o the audience, they seem to do that

quite a lot, they seem to do that quite specifcally

in terms o age group, racial background, or age,

class even, the degree to which people are already

‘involved’ in art, and will you reach those that aren’t

‘involved,’ and all that. Those categories are hugely

problematic because you have made all sorts o

assumptions beore you have encountered anybody,

about specifc sets o people, and I agree with you,

the project didn’t do that in any way, it didn’t say we

are going to ocus on this group o people, it was an

open process, doesn’t that mean that it needs to be

a low level presence that is perpetual?

AH: I think it would be good i it carried on, I suppose

because we had a relationship with Multistory

whereby Monika was working under their roo, andthe supportive role they took with her, I guess there

might have been some hope, and might still be hope

that some o the things that we learn rom the project

could actually inuence their programming. Or

some o the activities that could be seen as absorbed

by their organisation, that it eects their policy and

programming, there might be room or it. But it’s not

what you’re saying, which is a continued...

[...]

SF: It would be really nice i there was this critical

curatorial person doing this kind o work all the time,

but there seems to be a real conict in that original

Arts Council document. One o the questions in that

document is how would your project compliment

the policies o the local authority or other public

organisation, i it is a project that seeks to pursue

a model o radical democracy isn’t there a conict

there? I know you say certain things in a grant

application, but there is a conict there between

all these arts organisations that are seeking to do all

this rational work with the local authority and then

all these critical voices who are happier to let things

unold over a really long space o time.

AH: Well, I mean I think that you’re right, what

the University is able to do is to come in with a

critical position through academic discourse, and

that’s possibly where Emma Chetcuti and her team

have their hands are tied, ‘cos they are much more

dependent on unding sources and an ongoing

instrumental agenda or what arts and creative

practice can do in those type o environments. They

are perhaps tied to still quite dominant ideas about

the unction o art, which they possibly can’t veer

too ar rom i they are to carry on doing what they

are doing and employing people and those sorts o

activities. I mean it’s a sel-ulflling prophecy in a

way, i some o these agencies were set up to do these

sometimes problematic things with art, and the best

hope that critical artists have got is to use them as

platorms every now and again and to do something

more critical with them and hopeully aect their

output, use their unding, occupy that space. But

I know Multistory and Longhouse have been very

aected by cuts and things, they’ve really elt it, and

they’ve had to reduce their sta enormously. So I

think they are probably going through a review at themoment and rethinking what it is they do, and the

questions that they need to be (answering), saying to

potential unders what it is they are about.

[…]

SF: What did you do beore the start o this project?



8

MV: I was a curator at Peacock Visual Arts in

Aberdeen. I’d been hired as assistant curator, and

when I came into post in 2004 they ailed to appoint

a senior position and I was alone in the job or two

years. And I always elt that there was this lack o

someone in the organisation to share ideas, talk

about exhibitions, give critical eedback to concepts

and that sort o stu. […] I was looking or moreo a collective way o working and I was looking or

people I could have discussions with around those

things. I am also mostly interested in art in relation to

the public sphere and broadly conceived o political

issues and Peacock Visual Arts was moving to a

capital building development. I am personally not

convinced that having a huge agship arts building

is good in terms o urban development, or good in

terms o the arts organisation or what I see as being

potential or progressive cultural contexts so I wasn’t

really interested in that...

I was never one o those people who was convinced

that art has much social goodness in and o itsel

and that it can have a positive eect on an area or

the people in that area. I was always very sceptical

about that, and Tim was a total believer in that so, I

thought it would be interesting to work or someone

who was so convinced that art can make a dierence

to local people’s lives and it would be interesting to

challenge my views by working with someone who

has been working in that ... way or decades.

SF: Broadly speaking, can you talk more about what

your interests and approach are?

MV: ... I would be very reluctant to make broad

claims against any specifc. First o all, I think that

with any specifc artwork you commission or make,

– and I’m not someone who would make it, so

I’m going to say commission – it’s about how that

particular piece does or does not work; and what

kind o situation it is in and what is produced out o

that, regardless o whether it works or ails on its own

terms or not. But to start o with an ambition that

is beyond the artwork and very generic in the sense

o ‘this is going to encourage community cohesion,’

and then you have, I don’t know, an audio piece, or a

walk, or a guerrilla gardening action, on a basic level,

it doesn’t actually say anything about the artwork,it’s got a prescriptive attitude, it’s really on a very

basic level at odds with the idea o doing something

process-based.

And i you really want to empower the community

(as it usually goes) even on the very limited terms o

empowering people to participate in the arts as an

equal partner more or less, although there is also a

problem there I think, but then surely you can’t really

say what the outcome o the piece will be beore

those people have had ull involvement. So there arebasic issue like that already.

I mean, it’s much bigger than that, and also, or me

it’s about being honest about where you are coming

rom, and you need to have an interest within that. You

know, i it’s ‘we’re doing this great thing or people

out there’, who we’re defning in a very generic way,

we’re not really recognising individual dierences

very much or where they might be coming rom. It’s

not very much o a dialogue. It doesn’t really say what

I want to do, or what the artist wants to do, it doesn’t

really say what other people, you know. [...]

SF: Going back to the beginning o the project, what

did you think o Multistory?

MV: There was not that much on the website. The

Longhouse series which is part o what Multistory do,

the partner o this [project] is actually Longhouse,

which is the part that is unded through a ocus on

artist’s development. [...] I had heard very good

Monika Vykoukal,October 2010, the stall at West Bromwich Market



9

things about Longhouse and Multistory rom a

lot o people in the arts school in Aberdeen who

worked in socially engaged arts, as well as rom Tim.

Basically, Longhouse had been doing art in public

space engaging the local community since the early

seventies, and Chloe Brown who is running the

Longhouse project was on the interview panel when

I applied or the job. The act that Longhouse were

locally rooted, and had been or a while, contributed

to me wanting to do that job because I thought

that this is part o their longer work, they will know

people, they will have an idea o what’s going on. I

assumed they will have an idea o what they wanted

rom me, because ... my impression was that this

[project] must ft into their wider activity and their

longer term plans.

[...]

SF: What did you think you could achieve at the

beginning o the project and how has that changed?

MV: At the beginning I was trying to fgure out what

the set up was and I was under the impression that

I would be working closely with Chloe in terms o

developing a project, and that there would be other

people at the University in the research group who

would also give some input. I spent a ew weeks reading documents and trying to map out the regeneration

bodies in the area and also visiting places and visiting

people. I had been given a spreadsheet o people to

meet who were mainly working or dierent levels

o the public sector. Eventually I had a meeting with

people rom Multistory and we had a plan with action

points then, and I had conversations with Tim. It took

me until June, July 2009 (to understand) that there

was no... that I was sort o let to my own devices,

it took me a while to fgure that out. And it was also

changing with Tim leaving, Tim had had some ideas

with what he wanted to happen. So I was basically

trying to understand what was expected o me and

how people thought this would ft into what they

were doing.

SF: Are you saying it took you six months to fgure

out what the aims o the project were?

MV: Well, the general thing that I had been given

beorehand and that I responded to was about art in

relation to questions o democracy and the public

interest and art that was sort o ‘in public’. Which

I saw more as public in the sense o the public

sphere, rather than just in the street, but that was

airly general. When I then arrived, and ater the

frst meeting with Multistory it became clear that

there was some ambition to have work take place in

Wolverhampton and Walsall and West Bromwich.

The ramework that I was given, that came rom

those meeting notes Tim gave me (when I arrived)

was that it was airly defned. They wanted to have

three internationally established practitioners or

groups to each mentor eight people or, I believe it

was one month, or three months. It was signifcantly

longer than the one week they had done previously, a

ormat pretty much based on the Longhouse scheme,but more extensive. And that would be the frst

phase o something that would then be developed

or ater this project. And there would be a seminar

which would be like a taster workshop done at the

same time and take place in all three locations,

which would be ollowed by a conerence, bringing

together all the dierent, what is commonly reerred

to as ‘stakeholders’... And then or the second year,

or people to come or one month or more each,

and make work, and that work would be displayed in

some manner, in public space and then there wouldbe a publication about it, and beore the publication

came out, there would be an ambition to seek more

unding to continue the scheme.

That was what I was given when I frst started, and I

immediately had some things about it that I was keen

to question, or understand why it was done in that

way and what the ambition was. Some o those things

I was wondering about were (...) the relationships o

those dierent artists and the hierarchies in that, and

everyone doing their own thing separately. For me

there was a question over the relationship o doing

something like this and then having attached a more

sort o social goal in terms o positive impact on

people’s lives and the regeneration processes and

so on. […] I’m really interested in art as a space or

discussion and broadly speaking, mutual learning, as

a way to understand situations in dierent ways […]

How ar is it possible to proceed in a more public way

in terms o the artwork being relevant, not necessarily



10

nice or liked by people, but to be more intelligible

and responsive to people and to really take it

seriously that the primary audience is the people in

the location and how can that work out? […]

SF: Do you think it is important with a town like

this, post-industrial, economically deprived that it

is important to have those conversations with each

other?

MV: Well, important in what way? I do think it’s

important, in a sense, especially in a place like this.

[...] I think you need to fght or a certain level o

having a public space, and people being able to have

debate, it’s a constant struggle to maintain ... that.

That’s really important to me [...] I think there is aneed or more inormation, and I’m not saying that

those discussions wouldn’t happen without me being

there, but... [...] I eel like I can say ‘well this is what

I am interested in’, i someone else is interested

in that, and it is airly specifc, that’s the basis or

engagement with the project. And it doesn’t really

matter i it is the planning proessor rom Sheeld or

the guy down the road who had his house CPO’ed.

I’m not going to be talking about ‘cleaner saer

streets’ ...

SF: So that’s become the ocus. Do you eel like you

were on your own as the researcher trying to fgure

out the massive complex o regeneration o West

Bromwich, or, the other people that have come in,

the flm makers, the artists, do you eel they have

helped you do the research? I know a huge amount

o inormation has been generated.

MV: Well, I eel like I haven’t been able to process

the inormation very much because there is a lot.

I think it is too early to say how ar this project

succeeded or not.

[...]

[At this point in the interview, Maureen Neal,

intercedes in the conversation]

MN: Sorry to interrupt. Now then, you are rom

Wolverhampton University?

MV: yeah

MN: So what are you doing?

MV: Well this is the end o a larger...

MN: No, I mean, what is it all in aid o?

MV: Its about the town centre, the regeneration.

MN: right well, I’ve got news or you, [ to SF] are you

the writer?

MV: Well, she’s judging me!

MN: Well I’ve got inormation or the both o you.Not a lot o people know, I have particularly come

in...

MV: Would you like to sit?

MN: No, No, you’re alright, you sit there. Now, I’m

only an amateur artist, and I run a little paintbox group

in Lodge Road Community Centre, on a Monday, its

only a pound, and i there is anyone unemployed,

they can come along, 10.45 to 12.45. Now I’ve got

some very historic interesting inormation or youpair. First o all, that’s an angel I done or a relative o

mine [reerring to her sketchbook] out o my brain.

The most important thing is this, I’ ll come to it. Sorry

to keep you.

Now then, I done this yesterday, this is St Michaels

Roman Catholic Church, over the way rom here,

now did you know, that the late Princess Diane, her

great great Uncle was the frst Parish Priest o this

church. Princess Diane’s trust has just given it a little

bit o money to help with its restoration. I thought

that be better than the ruddy Public and all the rest

o it.

I’m originally rom Birmingham, used to be a nurse...

Very interesting or you really because the times

that we are living in, and the depression that we are

living in, you can see by the deprivation people are

living in, but the Midlands has got a wealth o past

historical things, and I think this needs to be brought

to the ore, we’re not down in the oorboards yet.



12

MV: One o the issues or me was the timing, that you

didn’t really have time... It was only two years and there

were certain ormal things in my contract that had to

be done, like the seminar, the conerence. Internally,

the sta were changing. When I started to work on

the seminar it was not that I necessarily was totally

convinced that this [market stall] was the ideal option,

but I elt I had to do something and see what happensrather than just keep thinking it over by mysel.

So the stall came out o the various ideas at the seminar,

and it was about having a local presence and addressing

the people who were there. So on the one hand, we

could fnd out i there were more people who were

interested in those questions, and also there could be

some direct communication, I mean about regeneration

in the area... The idea was to gather all kinds o

inormation and to hand it out at the stall. Because I

ound it very dicult to fgure out who was active, andwhat was happening, and I thought that it might be an

experience other people had as well so that could be an

attempt to start communication. It was situated there.

SF: What changed with the project ater the stall? Did

you eel that there was a success in terms o people

would come and engage with the questions around

regeneration?

MV: In terms o people being interested, it was a

success. I eel strongly that or me it ailed in terms o

lack o resources, because I would have needed more

people involved at the point o when people wanted

something to actually get to any kind o next step. That

didn’t happen, and I realised that it was very dicult or

me.

[...]

SF: You wanted to have a critical discussion about

regeneration, and you wanted to that to be a public

discussion, or the project to basically bring about this

sharing o knowledge about decisions that are made

behind closed doors. To what extent did that happen,

to what extent did you communicate that knowledge?

And were people interested?

MV: All the material at the stall was compiled by me

basically. Multistory gave me three documents, and allthe other stu was ound in the council archive and so

on, which also had a cost implication, and it took time,

and it was then displayed at the stall. It was all ocused on

West Bromwich, and a lot o people were reading that or

[in some cases] bringing their own inormation or sharing

their impressions o what was happening, such as: ‘There

was this consultation and they said they would knock down

the houses, but they still haven’t and now I can’t sell it

because people are not sure about it and the consultation

is always really bad because you can’t connect to anyone

else who might have the same concerns’. Things like that,and I noted them all down, but I guess it never really got

beyond that on most levels. […]

I mean my idea about my role in the project […] usually I

would say, the person who does this kind o engagement

is the artist and not the curator, I am setting it up and

helping out, but I’m not the person who is deciding

individually, on my own, what direction things are

taking. So I have been hoping that things would be

slightly dierent. Mainly because I would be the only

person who would be there or the whole duration, it

became a durational project. The idea was that I would

kind o be working in communication with and or the

other people involved, to support the work they were

doing properly together in a connected way. That did

not happen […]

So I was never sure, on the one hand I was very interested

in this stu, I really want to look into this, but then why

would I do this? I don’t live here, I don’t know what

the rest o the group would do with this stu. […] For

Monika Vykoukal, December 2010, Manchester.



13

instance one o the things that came up constantly

was that there were a lot o meetings in the evening

in terms o community consultation and so on, but

I ound it very hard to go to many o them. I think I

would have ound it easier i there had been more

people involved, but to try and go alone to those

meetings, ater work, when you don’t live there and

you don’t know anybody, it’s kind o hard. So that

was the thing about my role. It just became quite

dicult on various levels.

The other thing is that there was a question about

selecting things, which I have been thinking about

since, because a lot o the questions people asked

were not really the kind o direction we had had in

mind because they were more about local history or

amily history. The questions were strongly motivatedby personal interest but were not really about any

wider issues, like what happened to the lump o coal

in the shopping centre that used to be exhibited

there. But those were the people that came by

regularly so it was very hard to not look into their

questions. Because, the thing that you really worry

about doing this kind o work is ... on the one hand

they want people to participate, but then not really

include what those participants want in a serious way

so I elt i I didn’t look into those questions... [...]

SF: Were you expecting people who were

coming into the market, did you expect them to

be interested in questions o regeneration but

they weren’t interested because they were more

concerned about, or example, the lady who came

up to us when I visited the stall, and she gave a very

historic account o the businesses that were there in

West Bromwich. So to what extent is it a problem

that the public aren’t interested in the questions

that the artists were interested in? These were about

critiquing growth coalitions that make decisions that

are made without any kind o mandate...

MV: It wasn’t that, no. It wasn’t the case at all.

That’s just not true. People were very interested,

but I was not able to get enough work done about it,

because o the lack o resources and so orth, I was

there by mysel.

SF: So the public that weren’t interested...

MV: But that’s not true. I mean ... there were people

talking about the consultations they had been involved

in, they were talking about things that were about to

happen, or wanted to know what was about to happen

where they live, but the distinction is that most o the

public were not interested in general terms, but in

specifcs. I don’t think that is surprising. People wanted

to know specifc things in relation to that. But I didn’t

eel that I had the knowledge or resources to answer

that on my own.(*)

SF: So in what sense did the artists who came in answer

those questions? Is that what they were there to do?

MV: No I mean, the project took on a dierent

character rom what I had intended and when themarket stall was, when I was making the market stall in

a practical sense, it was between January and the end o

March 2010, the idea o the project was a dierent one

to what it became.

SF: Talk about what it became.

MV: Well, it became a series o distinct pieces o

work that are research-based or artistic, (...) initially

the idea was to have some sort o collective research

activity as ar as I’m understanding it, which would bethen documented in the newsletter which could also

potentially be o an open nature in the sense that we

would have little events at the stall maybe and invite

someone rom, or example, Corporate Watch to

look into the Supermarket or a day or so, then I could

invite an architecture student rom Birmingham to do

something about The Public, that was my hope...

SF: Did that happen?

MV: No, none o this happened. Which is because atthis time, I was expecting more help [...] the idea was

that it would be more connected...

SF: With the artists and the public, or the artists with

each other?

MV: Both.

SF: And that didn’t happen either?

MV: No. In hindsight, the main thing is the lack o



14

previous relationships, the act that no-one was living

in the area and that had implications, and I wasn’t

very orceul about steering it in the, you know I

didn’t say, ‘you can’t do that because it was not the

original plan’. It was dicult enough, I was caught up

in the management o things all the time […]

My personal situation really aected the work in the

sense that I experienced isolation since moving to the

area, it became much harder to do things […] in the

sense o a lack o response rom people working in

the arts sector in the area, or trying to get inormation

working with me on the project, or getting some

sort o reaction rom sta at the University, or at

Multistory. […] One o the things that has probably

aected all parts o the project is the recession and

the cuts in all kinds o institutions […] Dew Harrisontook on being my boss in addition to other work ater

Tim let, because they were having a hiring reeze

..., there was a big voluntary redundancy scheme

already last year [at the University], so people had

other things on their minds. And there might have

even been a perception that since they are ulflling

core unctions o the organisation in terms o doing

teaching and research. And I’m just doing this extra

thing and I didn’t have tons o money, but i you are

struggling already, then, well, ‘Why are we doing this

kind o thing’?

SF: Do you think they asked that question?

MV: It would have been dierent i it [the project]

would have had uture implications or the

organisation […] There are probably tons o other

things happening. Similarly Multistory made I think

nine people redundant last year, and now they have

our sta. Communication was already dicult at the

beginning, [...] there is defnitely a ocus on other

things, in a pragmatic ormal way I would say it’s

because o where the potential or the organisations

is, the University, the Art School, Multistory, their

ability to continue was not attached to this project.

Other things were more promising or them.

SF: What changed in West Bromwich as a result o

this project?

MV: […] I went back to the market the other week

and some o the stall-holders expressed an interest

in having some sort o continuation there, but the

issue or me is that basically my job is coming to an

end, there is not much money let in the budget and

I eel very drained! So I emailed various local arts

organisations and individuals saying don’t you want

to do something there. I told them I had a really

great experience there and that the traders have

expressed an interest and they could do all those

terrifc things. I emailed photography and media

studies at Sandwell College because the college

are getting a new building right behind the market so

it would make sense or them to do work with their

new neighbours, I’ve emailed Graham at the Public,

spoken with Chloe obviously about it, at Multistory,

I’ve emailed the graphic design tutor at the art schoolbecause people wanted to have design or their stalls

happening. And I emailed Fierce which is like an arts

organisation but they don’t have a permanent base,

but do all sorts o public art around the region, they

worked with Manu... Then I emailed Black Country

Touring, and a couple o other places […] some o

those people are people I have been trying to meet

ever since I moved down here, various curators who

are doing public art in relation to regeneration in

the area, and also artists […] I think that it is again a

question o the time limit and how to enter a socialgroup, because either you would need more time, or

you need a personal introduction, or a combination

o those.

*) From: <[email protected]>

Date: 6 January 2011 13:25:53 GMT+01:00

Subject: Catching up, plans, etc.

Dear Suzy,



15

[...] to reect on our conversation about a month ago: I did realize, even as I got all muddled about it, that there isa contradiction between what I said about people’s interest in the issues about regeneration and decision-making

and the project and the questions I was asked that were not directly to do with what we had set up as the rame o

the investigation but more about local history details and such.

I think both happened, and that I would have liked the raming to change in response to people’s interest a little,

which is what happened to some extent. I also think that the questions and interest about the project’s initial

ocus petered out as I was not equipped to respond adequately when the stall opened in early April. The key

issue I have been struggling with rom the start and all through the project has been not being able to work more

collectively, or even get discussions with the people who are to some extent co-workers (including the artists) on

the project, and not being able to fnd partner organisations and individuals to work with rom the start, with myviews hanging rather helplessly and vaguely in the balance between personal ailings (social skills, ability to come

up with ocus that is o interest to others, etc.) and systemic (working conditions, proessional roles, histories o

artists and other individuals and orgs more specifcally in the locality, conict between aim to work collectively

and set-up o institutions, practical limitations, etc.).

And then I don’t want this to become about me as a person, and so it kind o goes around my head without much

resolve, rankly. But I think, to complement answers to your question, both elements were present. [...]

So that’s it or now...

Monika



16

THE END. SOME FINAL QUESTIONS, AND SOME ANSWERS.See also initial questions and answers in Creative Reports # 3 and 5.

Some answers rom tHighways Services, Sandwell

Council:

Q: A road - this might be the A4034 - built around

40 years ago, looks like it was supposed to go to to

Blackheath but it only goes to Whiteheath:

here are our lanes rom Oldbury, then only two

lanes, but the trac island had been built, it lookslike then the building works stopped. What

appened?

A: The road reerred to is indeed the A4034. When

the M5 was built in the late 60s/early 70s, the

Ministry o Transport (as it was then) improved the

local A roads as they met the motorway at the new

junctions. It was normal practice to upgrade them

rom the next junction in each direction. In the

case o M5 Junction 2, the A4123 (Wolverhampton

Road) was already a dual carriageway but the A4034(Birchfeld Lane/Churchbridge) wasn’t. Thereore,

as part o the motorway works Birchfeld Lane was

widened to dual carriageway standard as ar as

Whiteheath Gate and Churchbridge as ar as Park

Lane. It was let to the local authorities to improve

the remainder o the routes. Warley Borough Coun-

cil (and rom 1974 - West Midlands County Coun-

cil) had proposals to complete the dual carriageway

south to Blackheath Town Centre and North to

Oldbury Town Centre. Funding was never obtained

or the Blackheath route and this proposal was

dropped by the County Council in the early 1980s.

The proposal to complete the route up to Oldbury

was considered to be o greater importance and

this was retained, ultimately being constructed by

Sandwell in the early 1990s (ollowing the demise

o the County Council in 1986).

Q: What was the original road layout and right o

way on Bustleholme Lane?

A: Originally the Lane was very narrow and ran rom

Charlemont to Bustleholme Mill Farm, which was

located on land that is now under the M6 Motor-

way. Here it terminated at a dead end. As ar as I

can tell, the lane was widened as ar as Bustleholme

Avenue between the wars and development took

place on either side o it. In the mid 1960s when

the Charlemont Farm and Bustleholme Mill Estates

were constructed the lane was curtailed just north

o the railway line at the new Andrew Road. At this

time Beacon View Road was constructed which

bisected Bustleholme Lane. A new bridge was built

over the railway so a short section o the lane be-

came wider here providing the link to the Bustlehol-

me Mill Estate. The section between Bustleholme

Avenue and Beacon View Road remains as little

more than a track along its original alignment.

Sandwell Cuts Poster: Poster produced by Jubilee Arts, 1983 [featured in: Kennedy, Liam, ed. Remaking Birmingham, The

Visual Culture of Urban Regeneration. London: Routledge,

2004: 58].



17

-E-mail rom Andy Miller, Transportation Team Leader, Sandwell Council, 3 February

Still trying to fnd out what happened with the coal once on display in a case in the Queen’s Square Shopping

Centre.

In 1991, the coal display was described in Journey Down the Golden Mile (Meandes, M.M., West Bromwich,

11-12):

The Block o Coal - In the glass case in the centre o the covered square. It was donated by the coal board’s

Mineworkers Pension Fund. It is a block o Anthracite rom the Abercrave Opencast Mine in South Wales pre-

sented in 1969 to commemorate the Board’s contribution to the building o the Shopping Centre. The centre

was designed by the John Maden Design Group in 1971.

To fnd out more, I wrote to the Mineworkers’ Pension Scheme, who sent me a very thorough response, sug-

gesting I contact some other organisations. I have now also sent enquiries to the Black Country Living Museum;

the Coal Industry Social Welare Organisation; Fairacre Properties, the receivers appointed by the Nationwide

Building Society on this and another shopping centre owned by Stockland (or details on this see http://www.

propertyweek.com/news/nationwide-appoints-receivers-on-malls/3159247.article#ixzz1DY0G4HAO); theNational Coal Mining Museum, who reerred me to the Big Pit - National Coal Museum, Wales, who in turn

suggested I contact the Black Country Living Museum; and the National Union o Mineworkers. It doesn’t look

good to me, but maybe something will turn up?

Remaining questions:

Who built and lived in 190 Beeches Road?

What Pub was between the Billiard Hall and St. Michael’s Church ca. 250 years ago?

What was where the ormer Sandwell Pub, now Grouse, is?

Looking or old photos:

Black Lake School (demolished 1966)Bungalows behind Lancaster House, Whiteheath (demolished in the 1980s)

Chester Street in Carters Green

Samson’s Farm in Rowley Regis



18

BLAZONAbsent shield, tincture cendrée/transparent.

Motto:Progress! Progress? The end and beginning

creative report # 6

Documents