creative breakthroughs with idea mapping 1 robert ...actionplan.com/pdf/nast_09.pdf · expertise...

CREATIVE BREAKTHROUGHS WITH IDEA MAPPING Robert Middleton Interviews Jamie Nast

Copyright ©2009 Robert Middleton, Action Plan Marketing - www.actionplan.com

1

Robert: Hello, everyone, this is Robert Middleton of Action Plan

Marketing and the Action Plan Marketing Club. Today I’m

interviewing Jamie Nast, who’s written a book called Idea

Mapping.

Robert: Mark Slatin recommended you, and so I contacted you. I

bought your book. I was very impressed.

I started doing mind mapping quite a lot after

interviewing someone else for the Club, and so the idea of

someone that’s written a whole book about this really

excited me.

Before we get into the interview, let me just give everyone

a little background on Jamie.

Jamie is committed to guiding individuals and organizations towards overcoming barriers to achieving success -- including those which reside in one's own mind.

Jamie and her husband are the owners of the NastGroup, a training and consultancy organization. She has specialized in mind potential optimization since 1992. Her workshops augment mental aptitudes and maximize individual and organizational productivity. Her range of expertise spans Idea Mapping, speed reading, leadership, creating personal missions, memory, presentations, tapping creativity, strategic planning, and graphic facilitation.

Jamie has mentored over 17,000 people world-wide towards better mental productivity.

Jamie's first book: Idea Mapping: How to Access Your Hidden Brain Power, Learn Faster, Remember More, and Achieve Success in Business combines her real-world business experience



2

with her teaching and Idea Mapping skills. Using her unique, results-oriented coaching strategies, she brings her workshop right to the reader.

She is an accomplished conference speaker and has

consulted for a wide array of clients both domestically and

internationally from Ford Motor Company to the

Pennsylvania College of Optometry.

Jamie, why don’t we start with this question? What’s the

difference between mind mapping and idea mapping? We

often talk about mind mapping, but you call your book

Idea Mapping. Is it really the same thing, or is it slightly

different?

Jamie: It’s pretty close, but where we begin to bridge off is mind

mapping is legislated by a very rigid set of laws, and I

found that over the years a lot of my clients got really

frustrated because they would say to me, “You know this

is supposed to be a creative process and you’re boxing me

into these rules, and I’m feeling restricted.”

Sometimes they would just throw their hands up and

throw it out with the bathwater kind of thing. And so one

of the laws in particular that was the most frustrating for

people was they were only allowed to have one word on a

branch at a time. And, anyway, to kind of-

Robert: I’m glad I didn’t know that rule!

Jamie: That’s the thing. Most people break them anyway. But

then the mind mapping police would come around and

say, “That’s not a mind map because you’re using more

than one word.”



3

Although I do walk people through some of the guidelines

that pertain, depending on the application, we took the

freedom to say, “You know what? I want to have a term

that describes the process just a little bit closer, and I also

want to give people the freedom to break those rules.”

That’s where we deviate ever so slightly.

Robert: Okay, well that’s great and, really, idea mapping is in

some ways a better name. Why don’t you give us a real

definition or your definition of idea mapping?

Jamie: Okay. Idea mapping is a very powerful, whole-brained,

visual thinking tool, because we’re going to leverage both

cortexes. It enhances memory, or it can enhance any of

these things, memory, note taking, thought organization,

planning, creativity and communications, among many

things.

But here is the difference. It uses color, keywords, line

and images to connect our thoughts associatively. And

idea maps are more of a natural expression of the way our

brain processes information.

Again, we’re going to really lean on the power of our

brain’s associative nature.

Robert: That’s interesting. When I was preparing for this talk with

Jamie, I said that I used mind mapping as a presentation

tool for my Marketing Mastery program, and I also use it

to create marketing plans. I just created my marketing

plan for my next Marketing Mastery group with a mind

map.

Jamie: Oh, that’s fabulous!



4

Robert: So it’s just a fantastic thing to get ideas out and something

that I see with a lot of independent professionals when

they’re creating their plans or want to create a marketing

plan or a strategy or take an idea and develop it, they get

kind of stuck.

They get kind of boxed into the list-making thing, the

outline type of thing, which is very kind of rigid. It can

work for somebody. I’ve done it for years myself, but

when I got into mind mapping, the ideas tended to flow

better. I could just see it all fitting together. It’s just fun.

What we’re going to learn today is how to mind map, and

we’re also going to run you through a whole bunch of

samples that Jamie’s clients have used and explain a little

about them.

If you’re listening to this call, on the particular page,

you’re going to see links to every single one of these mind

maps. When we mention those, you can open them up

and take a look at them.

So let’s talk. So those are some of my benefits. What are

some other benefits of, I keep saying mind mapping. I’ve

got to say idea mapping.

Jamie: It doesn’t matter!

Robert: Because I like it better, you’re taking an idea and you’re

expanding it and turning it into a map. I think it’s very,

very accurate as to what it is. So what are some of the

benefits to idea mapping?

Jamie: Well, I’m gonna go back up and start by picking up on

what you were talking about earlier. That’s the whole idea



5

of getting away from the linearity and the lists kind of

thing.

Robert: Yeah.

Jamie: Because one of the things that I think people often do, and

I think all of us have had to create presentations in the

past, is we’ll sit there and we’ll say, “Okay, what am I

going to say first? What am I going to say first?”

I’m stuck at that spot, and while I’m saying to myself,

“What am I going to say first?” all these ideas are flowing

around in my head. And by the time I get past what I’m

going to say first, I’ve now lost all those other ideas that

were potential through for my presentation.

So one of the biggest benefits of idea mapping is that I can

capture my thoughts in the moment, and I can use idea

mapping almost like a place holder for those ideas, simply

by asking myself, is the idea that’s coming into my brain a

main thought? Roman numeral I or something like that;

is it a main thought? Or is it a sub-thought that is going to

hang off one of the main branches that I’ve already placed

in my map.

The ability to go where my brain goes is a very large

benefit. Some of the benefits are because we’re using

fewer words and we’re using imagery and color. It’s going

to enhance memory, if memory is the purpose for why

you’re creating your particular map.

Another benefit is that we get to see the big pictures, all in

one place, on a single sheet of paper. What that does is

allows us to see relationships between information,



6

between data, that maybe we wouldn’t have seen before or

otherwise, had it been a linear, page-after-page document.

So, as you create this map and begin to see connections,

you can actually make decisions and have additional

creative ideas that wouldn’t have come otherwise. The

other benefit is now that I’ve got all my ideas down in this

one place, I’m thinking, “Wait a minute, I don’t think that

that branch is best there,” and you can begin to move

things around. Now you can see the whole picture.

On the surface it might seem like that’s an extra step, but I

say no. Because, again, if you hadn’t seen all those ideas in

one big picture, I don’t know that we would have been

able to know to reorganize some of that stuff. I think it

really just is a fabulous organizational tool.

There’s a gentleman by the name of Chuck Frey, who is

probably the most famous software expert when it comes

to mind mapping software, idea mapping software and

that kind of stuff. He’s done several surveys to find out

some of these very same questions as far as benefits.

And one of the top number one benefits that his surveys

talk about, and I’m sure you’ve experienced this as well, is

they say that the number one benefit is that it clarifies my

thinking.

Robert: Yes, absolutely. Yes.

Jamie: Yes, so you and I have experienced that. So the clarifying

aspect is just fabulous, especially in a world where we’re

constantly being asked to do more with less, and we’re

trying to organize sometimes complex volumes of data.

And how do I sort through all of that? And all of sudden I



7

become overwhelmed, and then I get immobilized. This

can kind of get us off dead center.

I think there’s a lot of benefits and advantages that will

kind of pick up as we go throughout our time together, but

one other thing is probably the whole idea of, quite

honestly, once you get used to this tool, the speed. The

speed at which you can take notes, the speed at which you

can get your ideas down in an organized fashion, is

another just tremendous benefit.

Robert: So, let me emphasize that one. It’s not just a planning

tool. It can be a note-taking tool. You can be in a seminar,

for instance, and I have done this. You do a central circle,

and that’s the title of the seminar. And then they talk

about one idea, and you do a branch off of that.

You know, I often do this sort of, you don’t have an

example of this, but a popsicle stick when I have a circle in

the middle and then I have a branch and then I have

another circle. And then I put the main idea, and then I

put branches off of that circle.

Then I might have six or eight circles, all with branches.

That’s one way to do it. But it’s a great way to take notes.

So they talk about Topic 1, and you put that in your first

circle and you just do a little word off of that. By the end

of that, you have an incredible overview of that talk, just

on one page.

Jamie: Yes and the nice thing about it is that as we know,

sometimes, and I’m as guilty as the next person, speakers

can bounce around a bit.



8

Robert: Yes.

Jamie: And so if there’s a thought that they’re on, Point 4, but

then they bounce back and try to make a tie to something

or they forgot something and it goes to Point 1, all I have

to do is go to that other branch. I don’t have to thumb

through a bunch of pages and figure out, “Where was

that?” So, yeah, there’s a lot of very handy ways for us to

organize things in a fashion that makes sense to us.

Robert: Let’s talk about some of the applications. Of course, that’s

one of them, note taking at a talk. Remembering that the

people on this call are primarily independent

professionals interested in marketing, there are a lot of

applications for this that wouldn’t necessarily fit. So let’s

skip those and look at the ones that might work the most

for businesses like you and me.

Jamie: Okay. Well, number one, you’ve already mentioned one.

That is you could literally create a marketing plan. And I

think we have an example that we’re going to show a little

later along those lines from a very simple perspective.

We all have, I don’t know about you, but there have been

days where I’ve got sticky notes everywhere. And so, just

simply to organize everything that I need to do in one

place, so it becomes like a to-do map instead of a to-do

list, sometimes that’s helpful for me.

If we’ve got to make a difficult decision, how do I get all

those thoughts in my head down where I can see it?

Maybe I put certain weights on certain decisions because

these are more critical than others. So, literally, try to map

out a decision that you have to make, pros and cons and

all that kind of stuff.



9

Robert: So, for instance, this is not business related, but I can’t

help but thinking it. My sisters and I are working out

options for my mother’s retirement living. We’re facing a

lot of difficult decisions, so you could do a mind map.

Here’s Option 1, 2 3, 4 and 5 and then the pros and cons

off of each of them and there it is all on one page.

Jamie: Yes and I’ve even had people say they sort of score. I’ll

have to send you that example later. They sort of score the

weight of the decision.

Robert: Right.

Jamie: They almost put a formula to it to say, “This is really

critical. This is not so critical.” But yes, if nothing else,

because the decisions are so important, just getting them

out of your head and onto a piece of paper where you can

see them almost helps you to, “Ah!” relax a little bit more.

Robert: Yes, yes.

Jamie: Another really important one that I don’t know that a lot

of companies do, we should do them, and that is to have a

vision or mission for the organization.

So the people understand what the focus is, where we’re

headed, how I fit into that. But to have it in a visual

format can be extremely powerful. Especially as you’re

going to your clients, it becomes a much easier

communication tool as well. But that’s another one.

Robert: Yeah, definitely.

Jamie: To create an idea map of the goals that I have, whether it’s

for me as part of the organization, the things that I need

to accomplish or what my entire organization needs to



10

accomplish. I can create an idea map of a client or even a

perspective client, so that I understand what the core of

their business is, who they are specifically, what maybe I

even know about them personally.

What are their products? What’s their annual revenue and

on and on and on. It’s all the things that I might need to

know about a client.

The neat thing about that is that as I develop in my

relationship with that client, I can add to it. It’s going to

grow and change over the years. It just gives you a better

picture of the client.

Let’s say that it’s been six months since you’ve seen that

particular organization or individual. Well, it’s kind of

nice to pull that back out and dust off the cobwebs. Now,

all of a sudden, you remember the names of their children

or whatever it might be.

It really makes you look like, “Wow, you have really taken

a personal interest in me.” Because sometimes six months

goes by and you can’t remember, “Was it golfing they

liked or was it scuba diving?” or whatever.

Robert: You know you’re giving me some great ideas that I could

use right away. One thing that I see that I could do is

create a mind map of each of my clients in the Marketing

Mastery program. You know I’m working with 16 clients

and I could say, “Here’s their central business idea.”

Jamie: Yes.

Robert: Then I have sort of three main things. What’s their main

big, high-end service they’re developing? What’s their



11

basic marketing plan? What’s their selling plan?

Whatever, I could have various things on that, just as a

reminder of what they’re working on and their business.

I could start that right at the beginning of the program, so

I have a big picture. Because it’s easy to forget, “What is

this client working on and where are they?” I can just look

at the mind map, print it out and stick it in my notebook

and there we have it and what are you working on right

now?

Jamie: Exactly.

Robert: So, that’s much more dynamic than any kind of linear list

that I could have.

Jamie: Right.

Robert: I don’t know, maybe it works differently with some

people, but there is something about seeing it all together

just like that, that makes me feel calmer and more on top

of things and not so overwhelmed.

Jamie: Right.

Robert: It’s interesting.

Jamie: Each of your clients is going to have certain hot buttons.

Robert: Yeah. Or certain needs or certain things they have to

emphasize, or certain things they have to work on more

than other clients. I find the more that I remember what it

is they do and their differentiation, the more I can coach

them and help them with all of that.

Jamie: Absolutely.



12

Robert: That would be a fabulous tool. What else?

Jamie: Well, similar to making a decision, but I still think it’s a

little bit different, is trying to resolve a problem. So, if we

can get our arms around all the data that we need to

resolve this particular problem, it might, again, having it

in that visual form, help us as we go about looking for a

resolution.

Robert: Right.

Jamie: We all either are reading technical manuals or books and

having to remember information from that, so creating an

idea map of parts of the content of a book or an article or

something like that is always a nice way to remember.

I have people create a single page, and then fold it up and

stick it inside the book.

Sometimes we think, “There’s that one page and I can

almost see it in my mind’s eye. It’s on the right side, sort

of down, midway. I know I highlighted it, but because I

didn’t create a map, because I didn’t have a sticky note or

anything, I’ve got to walk through the whole book.”

Robert: Yeah.

Jamie: To be able to have a single sheet of paper that I’ve made

some notes on in the form of a map, stick it inside the

book, I even have page markers on my map, “For more

information go back to this page,” it just makes the whole

process that much simpler if I need to go back and grab

information.

Robert: Well, I hope the people listening to this are starting to get

the idea that they could use mind mapping to learn the



13

information in the Fact Track program, which is included

in the club. So we have seven basic modules, it's 7.5 really,

and so the first one is on the game of marketing.

You could create a mind map that worked for you to

understand the game of marketing. We already have a

mind map, which is the baseball diamond analogy. It’s

whatever works for you.

What are the main ideas and the places in between the

bases, etc, etc? So we’re drawing something as we’re

listening to this or studying it.

Then we get to Marketing Mindset. Well, what are some of

the key components for that? And then we get into what is

our core message, etc, etc, etc. You could even have one

big mind map for all of it.

Jamie: Absolutely. That’s a brilliant idea.

Robert: You know that you could see we have these seven different

parts, and then you could have the different parts that you

need to work on or emphasize that are coming off of each

of these major parts.

Jamie: Sure.

Robert: Again, there’s no, as we’ll see when we look at some of

these examples, there’s no absolute way a mind map has

to look. In a few minutes, we’re going to be giving you

some generic ways that it could work, but it sort of has to

flow with you. It’s an evolving process, right?

Jamie: Yes.



14

Robert: I was interested to see that in your book people would say,

“Now I’m in my 100th mind map,” or “my 200th mind

map.” Do people often take a spiral bound notebook,

“Map1” and flip the page, “Map 2” and that kind of thing?

Jamie: Some of them did. More from an accountability

standpoint, because they wanted to be very purposeful in

saying, “I want to learn this skill,” and because most of us

have been taking linear notes our whole life.

It’s not that it’s difficult. It’s just that I’ve got my brain

wired to take linear notes. So unless I make a deliberate

effort to say, “Okay, I’m going to do X number of these,

and I’m going to try very much to do at least two a week,”

or something like that to make it more of a habit, I think

that was what they were having some fun with.

Robert: Right, and what I’ve seen and what I was impressed by is

that you could see not only the development of ideas in

this, but you could see the development of themselves in

terms of their skills, their ability, the confidence, their

clarity about something.

Jamie: Yes.

Robert: By doing a lot of this, it really is great mind work, and it

gets you to a place where you’re clearer about things.

You’re more confident about things. You know where

things belong.

I was talking to a client today, for instance, about what are

all the main questions a prospect would ask you about X

service. Then you have to have good answers for all of

those questions. So you could actually mind map that.



15

In the center, you’ve got what are all the questions, then

branching out you have the 10 major questions, and then

for each of those you have at least the beginning of the

answer for each of those questions.

Then later on you could translate to a page where you

wrote those questions and those answers down perhaps.

And then right there you have the basics, which is kind of

a cheat sheet as you’re interviewing people. “They asked

Question 4. The basic answer for that is, ‘Tell them about

X.’”

Jamie: Correct.

Robert: And then it’s all just there for you.

Jamie: Yes.

Robert: It’s fun stuff.

Jamie: Yes, it is.

Robert: Now, any other major applications that you can think of

for independent professionals?

Jamie: I guess. The list is almost endless. I don’t want to go on

too much. But probably one other one that I think is

important is creating idea maps in teams.

I think some of us are individuals and independent, but

some of us also work in teams. If not, we’re working with

our clients in teams.

Robert: Right.

Jamie: And so I think the ability to almost facilitate a session

where a team could share their ideas and you don’t even



16

have to go into, “This is an idea map and this is how it

happens.”

It’s one of those things where I have people in teams. Let’s

say we’re doing some sort of a brainstorming session.

Each person would start out by creating an idea map

about whatever the topic is, themselves, personally.

The reason I do that is because of the nature of our brain

being so associative, if one person starts shouting out an

idea, it’s like almost all of our brains sort of go down that

path.

Robert: Right.

Jamie: By starting with an individual map per person and then

making sure that over the course of our sharing time that

everybody’s ideas gets included in a big map, it really

gives a breadth of ideas that I don’t see typical

brainstorming capture.

Robert: Right.

Jamie: It also allows for that quiet person to participate and for

the dominant person to not have all the ideas. It typically,

in those sessions, again, depending on the size of the

group, will either capture all of their ideas into a large

map that’s either on a flip chart or projected onto a screen

and we’re using software.

They have to come to some kind of consensus about what

are the main branches and how do we capture all our

ideas so everybody is represented. I think the team and

the group mapping is probably the last crucial one I really

wanted to up.



17

Robert: That sounds like a fantastic idea. Usually when you do

brainstorming, you’re just making long lists and then

there are several pages. This is more dynamic.

Jamie: Right.

Robert: You might have to have a bigger piece of paper for this,

but that’s not a big issue.

Jamie: Right. And I think the other advantage is that because you

and I have to come to some consensus about how we

merge our ideas, we have to have a shared understanding

about what that main branch is.

Robert: Right.

Jamie: That’s going to house those ideas.

Robert: Right.

Jamie: It forces us to have really clear communication because I

could say, “I’m going to put your sub branch here,” and

you could say, “I don’t think you understood exactly what

I meant by that. Here’s what I really mean.”

We don’t get that kind of clarity in typical brainstorming.

Robert: Right.

Jamie: So.

Robert: It’s ideas in relationship to each other, not isolated from

each other.

Jamie: Right, right.

Robert: Got it. So, before we get onto some of the how-to, let’s talk

a little bit about the two main methodologies.



18

Methodology 1 is pen and paper or colored pencils. The

other is software. And you know I use both. I do sort of

more informal mind maps when I’m thinking through

ideas in a notebook. Then I do more formal ones,

especially for presentation, with software programs.

Can you talk a little bit about that and the pros and cons?

Also we’ll mention a few of the software programs that are

available.

Jamie: Okay. It’s kind of funny because when I first learned this

technique back in 1992, I don’t believe there was a

software package available. I don’t even remember if

Inspiration was around at that point.

It was kind of funny because when it did come around and

somebody said, “There’s now software for it,” I thought,

“Oh, how horrible! How could you take this beautiful

process and put it into software?”

Of course, I have since obviously learned that there is a

great need for both, and I do use both. In fact, if I’m really

honest, I probably use the software more than the hand

drawn now at this point, just because of the simplicity.

But let’s talk about the benefits, the benefits of the hand

drawn over the software for a minute.

Robert: Sure.

Jamie: Again, a lot of this is going to be driven by what’s your

purpose and what’s the application. But, if memory is part

of the formula for what I’m trying to accomplish, the fact

that I’m engaging a kinesthetic aspect, in other words I’m

hand drawing something, adds to my memory and recall.



19

The other advantage of the hand drawn for some people is

they are simply so sick of using a computer that the

release of sort of the artistic side of them brings a lot of

joy.

And thirdly, when we’re trying to find, when we really

want a very specific image that I can’t find on the

computer and I can’t find in Google, but I can hand draw

it, there’s another advantage there.

Robert: Sure. It can be faster too.

Jamie: It can be. It can be, but on the flip side there are a

tremendous number of benefits. Back to the hand drawn,

I may not have my computer with me, so I have no choice.

Robert: Sure.

Jamie: So, when we talk about computer software, now if it’s

something where I’m doing a draft and then I’m

reviewing, the editing process, as you and I both know,

the ease at which you can edit on an electronic map is so

blasted simple. Without redrawing something and all that

kind of stuff.

Robert: You can create a whole bunch of branches very quickly,

and then you can change the order of them almost

instantaneously. You move this here, this here and that

fits here better, blah, blah, blah. That’s the big advantage.

Jamie: So the productivity gain, and the other thing is you get

into some of the more advanced packages that have quite

a bit of interface with Microsoft Office Suite. Wow! You

can upload an idea map into projects. You can upload it

into Microsoft Word.



20

It will take it from a map to an outline or an outline to a

map. There’s a lot of very fancy functionality that you can

get into in the software as well. The complexity of the data

and how you can minimize some of the branches and all

that kind of stuff is really tremendous.

Robert: Yes. Now let’s talk quickly about some of the brands of

software. You recommend one a little above the other that

you’ve used a lot. Which one is that?

Jamie: I do, partly because I have just known the history of the

company for a long time. The company’s name is

www.Mindjet.com. The product is MindManager. It is

fully integrated with the Microsoft Office Suite. They have

a large number of images that I enjoy using quite a bit.

For the longest time it was one of the only ones out there

and so the company, from a stability standpoint has been

around, golly, since 1993 or 1994.

Robert: So they’ve really refined it. They have a lot of bells and

whistles. Are there different sort of levels you can buy

into, basic, advanced, super-duper, that kind of thing?

Jamie: They just came out with a new release, but it has a

collaborative piece. It’s been so recent that I couldn’t tell

you what that cost, but it’s more of a monthly fee. If we

had people around the globe that wanted to collaborate.

Robert: I see.

Jamie: It’s outside the firewalls of a company. There are some

companies that hesitate to do a whole lot outside of their

own firewalls. That’s the only drawdown for that, but I

believe they do have an online version and not too many



21

beginning level, intermediate level. I don’t think they have

that at this point. I think it’s just either that or the online

version.

Robert: Let me mention the one that I use. I use

www.NovaMind.com, and they have three or four levels at

various price points. I think the basic one, which happens

to be the one I use, NovaMind Express, and I think I can’t

remember, is in the $49 to $99 range.

Then it increases by X dollars for more fancy bells and

whistles. The great thing is you can buy it at one level and

if you want to go to the next level, you just pay a bit more

and you get more features. So it works very similarly.

I think Mindjet is, excuse me, MindManager is more

sophisticated in many ways.

Jamie: Yes, but they’ll even be the first one to tell you that they’re

going after a pretty high-end professional market that

does need the integration with Project and those types of

things.

Robert: Yes, and that’s not so important with us independent

professionals. So check them out on the web, do some

searching on Google. There’s more than these two. There’s

a lot of them.

Jamie: I’ll mention one more, if you don’t mind.

Robert: Yeah, go ahead.

Jamie: There’s one called Freemind. It’s a web-based package,

and it is free.

Robert: Wow, okay.



22

Jamie: But it’s not FreeMind.com. I think it’s

www.SourceForge.com. But it’s inside of Wikipedia. You

just have to click on the latest version of Freemind. That’s

another option.

I try to have both ends of the spectrum available for

people, because there’s times when budgets are tight, and

I can’t afford to actually spend money.

Robert: Exactly. Most of these, you can download a free one for 30

days or something. I think you can do that with

NovaMind and probably MindManager. You can check it

out and see if you like it or not, and if you do, great. If you

don’t, check something else out.

So, those are your options, paper and pen or software.

There’s really no excuse not to get started with mind

mapping.

So, what I’d like to do next, Jamie, is let’s just sort of give

an example. If you’ll look at the first two links under the

recording, we’ve got A, which is “Bloom of Association”

and B, which is “Flow of Association.”

(There are links to all these examples on the web

page in the Club.)

These are the two main building blocks of any mind

mapping, whether you do it on paper or computer. So,

let’s just look at the bloom of association diagram.

Here you have sort of an internal circle. Actually, it looks

more like a little cloud. Then we have branches that come

off of that cloud, and there are 10 of them. That’s sort of a

beginning, generic mind map for practically anything.



23

How would we start with that?

Jamie: Okay, just as a generic example, you could pick any topic

or any word that you want. We could pick a very simple

word. Let’s just say, well, I’ll tell you in a minute. We’ll put

the same word in the middle. We’re not going to do this

activity. I’ll just explain how it works.

Robert: Okay.

Jamie: Put a word in the middle, the first 10 words that come to

mind when you think of the word in the middle would be

on the main branches coming right out from that center.

Robert: Right.

Jamie: Let’s say we picked the word “run.”

Robert: Run.

Jamie: The first 10 words that come to my mind, as it relates to

“run,” might be any of these. Ours aren’t going to be the

same because your associations are going to be different

than mine.

I might pick “shoes, jog, marathon.” I might even switch

gears to “water,” like running water, “office,” running for

office.

Anything that associates to that word run that feels like a

main thought to me would be become a main branch

around the word “run” and that’s sort of that first level

around the main idea, the main topic. We call those “main

branches.”

So, if we move from that to the flow for a minute, which is

the second example.



24

Robert: Yes.

Jamie: The difference between the bloom of ideas that hub

around the word “run” and a flow of ideas is that on the

flow you can see we’ve got an empty bubble. Does it have

the word “work” in it? I can’t remember if I left it blank.

Robert: No, it doesn’t.

Jamie: Okay, let’s change words for a minute and let’s get rid of

“run.” Let’s say we have the word “work” in that cloud.

Robert: Okay.

Jamie: When I say the word “work” to you, Robert, what’s the

first word that comes to mind when you think of the word

“work?”

Robert: Time.

Jamie: Okay. So “time” would go on the first branch off of “work.”

Now when you think of the word “time” what comes to

mind when you think of the work “time”?

Robert: Limited.

Jamie: “Limited,” okay. Forget about “work” and “time” and only

think about the word “limited.” What’s the next word that

comes to mind?

Robert: Scarce.

Jamie: “Scarce.” What do you think of with the word “scarce”?

Robert: Economy.

Jamie: “Economy.” What do you think of when you think of the

word “economy”?



25

Robert: Manage.

Jamie: Okay, when you think of the word “manage” what do you

think of?

Robert: Boy, you’re really putting me on the spot here! I’m writing

them down as we do.

Jamie: This is the last one.

Robert: So, we’ve got “time, limited, scarce, economy, manage.”

Jamie: It only has to do with the word “manage.”

Robert: People.

Jamie: Good! Okay, so now you’ve got far enough away. We

started with “work” and you could see that every time we

took a different word, it sort of took on a life of its own.

Robert: Yeah.

Jamie: It didn’t have anything to do with what was going on

before that. That’s very similar to how our brains work. So

now, if we think about an idea map, it’s really generated

by the use of the combination of these two methodologies

of the bloom of ideas and a flow of ideas.

I know they’re kind of silly words, but it’s so. Now let’s

start over for a second.

Robert: Okay.

Jamie: And let’s pick another word. This is off the top of my head

too, so I’m putting me on the spot as much as you. Let’s

take the word “house.”

Robert: House, okay. This is under flow of associations?



26

Jamie: Now we’re going to merge them together so we’re starting

fresh with a bubble in the middle.

Robert: Okay.

Jamie: We’re kind of going back to the flow, but we’re not going

to deal just with main branches. We’re going to combine

them. You’ll see where we’re going with this. I’ll do this

with you.

What’s the first word that comes to mind when you think

of the word “house”?

Robert: Mortgage.

Jamie: The first word that comes to my mind when I think of the

word “house” is “ranch.”

Robert: Okay.

Jamie: Let’s say hypothetically we have two more branches now,

one is “mortgage” and one is the word “branch.”

Robert: “Branch” or “ranch”?

Jamie: “Ranch.” I’m sorry. I’m looking in my mind’s eye at a

branch and I said “branch” instead of “ranch!”

Okay, so the next word that comes to mind, I don’t want

you to try to think of a main branch and don’t try to think

of a sub branch. Just think of a word. When you think of

this whole idea of a house, what’s one more word that

comes to mind? I’ll do the same.

Robert: Location.



27

Jamie: So, we have this new word. Here’s how the idea mapping

works. I get this new word and I think, “Huh, location.

Where does it go?”

I have to ask myself, “Is that a main branch or is that a

sub branch that comes off of mortgage or ranch or is it an

idea that sort of stands by itself and it doesn’t have a main

branch to house it?

It will be one of those three scenarios. I simply have to ask

myself, “For me, where would that association most

appropriately go?” If it’s a main branch, fine. It’s a main

branch.

If it’s a sub branch, it goes off of the ones that’s already

there. Fine, I put it there. If it’s a floating idea, I have to

think of a main branch that it would be housed under.

Robert: Right.

Jamie: So, for you is “location” a main branch, a sub branch or

floating?

Robert: It’s a main branch.

Jamie: Okay.

Robert: Now, being Joe Practical here, I sort of think, “Well what

the heck is the purpose of this mind map?” For me this is

a little abstract, but if I was thinking, “I want to buy a

house,” then it becomes more real to me. Then what are

all the things? I have to consider my mortgage. I sort of

like the idea of a ranch house.

For me, when I bought a house, the word that would go in

there would be deck. I wanted a deck. Deck, deck, deck. I



28

ended up buying a house with a two-layered, custom-

sculptured deck.

Jamie: A deck with an attached house, right?

Robert: Pretty much, yeah. Then location is, I wanted it in a

certain area, and then I would think of everything I

wanted in a house.

But all of a sudden, in the middle of thinking of Branch 4,

I might think, “Well, who is the mortgage broker going to

be?” We’d have “mortgage,” and then we’d have a thing off

mortgage of “where to find the mortgage broker” or “talk

to Joe Blow” or something like that. Right?

Jamie: Yes, and giving that identity of buying a house does make

it more real. It gives it more purpose and it helps define

the branches that you’re going to put on there.

Robert: Yeah.

Jamie: Absolutely. That’s a better example than just the single

word “house.” What you have to do then is you just have

to ask yourself, “As the ideas come in, where do they go?”

There are two cautions. One is I’ve seen people say,

“Okay, I’m going to think of all my main branches first.”

Robert: Yeah.

Jamie: What you’ve just done is turn it into a linear process. If

those main branches come to you naturally, that’s fine.

But you don’t want to force yourself to do all the main

branches first. You don’t want to force yourself to finish

the mortgage branch.

Robert: Yeah.



29

Jamie: Before you go onto the location branch, you have to force

yourself to follow your brain.

Robert: So, follow your brain. Follow the idea and see where it

takes you. If we’re looking at something for marketing,

just to give you some ideas of mind maps, a good mind

map for everyone would have the center called “Ideal

client.” Who’s my ideal client?

Then one branch, if you sell to individuals, it might be

“male.” It might be “sports oriented.” It might be “lives in

this town.” “Sports oriented” what sport? Are they really

into football? They’re into this or that, and it just starts to

fill in, right?

Jamie: Yes.

Robert: All of a sudden it starts to have some reality to it. This

ideal client before you had a sort of a vague conception of,

and in just a few minutes it’s much clearer who this ideal

client is. It’s always been there in the background.

I never did a mind map of the house that I wanted, but

after I bought my house I realized that it was a house in

the woods by a river, and it was a shingled house. Guess

what? My grandparents had a house just like that.

Jamie: Oh my golly.

Robert: It was already hidden in there and I didn’t even realize it

until some time after I’d bought the house and I went, “Oh

my god, I bought my grandparents house.”

It was great, because those were the happiest times of my

life, visiting their house in the summer. I bought my

childhood fantasy house.



30

Who knows? Creating this or figuring out who your ideal

client is, you might have an ah ha. “I want to work with

people like that. I was being too rigid. I want to work with

people who are really interested in X or have a certain

amount of money or all kinds of things.”

Jamie: It’s the difference between being very targeted and

specific in what you want to try to accomplish and sort of

being shotgun approach.

Robert: Yeah. Well, this might turn into a more shotgun thing, but

at least you put all the ideas out there and you see which

are the most important. Which are the strongest? Which

are the ones you could ask yourself that you can’t do

without? What are the ones that are maybe maybes and

etc, etc.

All I knew was that I wanted a house with a deck, right?

Somehow I just pictured this deck and so the very first

house the real estate person showed us was the house

with this deck and I went, “Oh my God, what a deck. What

a view!” There was a river through the trees, and it was

like, “Oh my God!”

Anyway, you could do this same thing around, “What’s my

key message?” Or you could do something around, “What

are the basic strategies I’m going to use?” The point is you

could have many mind maps in your marketing.

Jamie: Yes.

Robert: They just start to come out of this very simple thing, a

bloom of associations and a flow of associations.

Jamie: Yes.



31

Robert: I love it.

Jamie: I can’t wait to see some of the maps that are going to get

created as a result of this call.

Robert: Yeah. If the people on this call want to send me some

mind maps, put it together and create a JPEG of it. You

can scan it and create a JPEG of it or if you do it in

software, you can turn it into a JPEG, and then you can

email it to me. Maybe we could post some of these.

I just have to mention this. When I started my business

back in 1984, it was actually 1983, I attended a career

development workshop. One of the pieces of that was

creating a mind map of our ideal life and business.

I still have it in my drawer here.

Jamie: You’re kidding.

Robert: No! I mean I probably can’t find it. I know it’s here

somewhere.

Jamie: Oh, you have to share that.

Robert: There is it! Look at that! I could put my fingers right on it.

That’s amazing. And it’s interesting. The very center of the

map is kind of done in intersecting triangles with

everything connecting, but it’s got ideas off of each of the

things. So, I have “making a difference and a

contribution” as my central thing.

Guess what? That was the whole theme of my business

last year, “How to make a contribution in your business.”

I had three major things, “self or personal growth,

business and family,” and then I have the intersection of



32

those, “self-growth and family,” “self-growth and

business,” “family and business,” and then I have

branches off of all of those.

If I look at that, it’s not only my ideal business, it’s my

ideal life. This doesn’t follow necessarily those exact rules,

but it was an illustration of what I wanted in my life. You

know what? All of this has come true

It’s run from home. I have a great income and livelihood. I

have family participation and participation in the

community. This is before I was married, I believe.

It’s amazing the things that can come out of a mind map.

It’s an illustration that becomes almost emblematic of

your business.

Jamie: The power of the visual communication is being more and

more widely understood even in business today. The

power that it has to communicate and the power it has to

share a message over some linear document I think, I’m

seeing businesses change.

Robert: You know, I think I’ll scan this mind map and I’ll put it up

for everybody to take a look at. It might be inspiring to

some people. This is something I did 25 years ago.

Jamie: Oh my gosh!

Robert: Isn’t that something?

Jamie: Wow!

Robert: It’s mind boggling.

Jamie: It is.



33

Robert: I’m glad I kept my files.

Jamie: Yes, yes.

Robert: So, where do we go from here? One issue that I think is

important to talk about is the struggles that people have

in learning idea mapping. I don’t have much of a struggle,

as you can tell. I’ve been doing variations on this for years.

But I’m still learning a lot from you.

What kind of struggles do people have and how do they

overcome them?

Jamie: One of them I think I mentioned briefly. That is just the

whole idea, The medical profession calls it a neural

pathway. It has been taking notes in linear fashion for

who knows how many years. It could be 60, 70 or

whatever.

Because of the way our brains are wired, truly and

naturally, I want to pick up my pen and I want to make a

list.

Robert: Yeah.

Jamie: It will either be a sentence. There are the streamlined

styles that 98% of the world will use. It’s a certain style of

a list style or our old outline.

We’re not trying to get rid of linear notes, but we’re

adding another note-taking style that just by the nature of

what it does competes with that linear tendency.

The first obstacle is just to be able to use the idea mapping

enough that you’re now making a conscious choice of

whether you’re taking linear notes or use an idea map.



34

To have that available and strong enough so that you

don’t accidentally continue to slide back into the linear

notes and before you know it, you’re not doing any more

mind maps. That’s one thing.

There are a couple of other things once you get beyond

that that happen sort of inside the context of creating the

maps. One is there’s a tendency to spin your paper

around. I know it sounds silly, but you have to make sort

of a conscientious effort, especially on the left side of the

map.

Once you cross that 6:00 barrier and you’re sort of into

the 7:00 and 8:00, just make sure when you’re writing on

the page and you’re actually writing on the top of the

branch so when you’re looking at it, it’s easy to read.

Robert: So you don’t have words that are upside down etc, etc.

Jamie: Right.

Robert: Okay, that makes sense. How about the thing that people

feel, they’re perfectionistic, and they don’t feel they’re

creative.

Jamie: Okay.

Robert: It’s sort of like, “Well, my mind map doesn’t look as pretty

as that mind map.” I have that tendency. It’s like I want it

perfect.

Jamie: Yes, yes. I think I started out many of my years the same

way because there are always people where they’re

gorgeous. Mine are okay, but mine aren’t going to be like

some of my instructors, who do creations that just

unbelievable.



35

You kind of have to let go of that and say, “You know

what? This isn’t about an artistic challenge. This is about

me becoming more productive, me thinking clearer and

me really defining my purpose up front,” so I don’t get

caught up in the some of the perfectionist tendencies.

Early on, and a lot of people do this, they get so far and

they make a mistake and they’re hand drawing them.

Then they feel compelled to start over. What a waste of

time!

I mean I understand it, but you can’t get yourself caught

up in that. Otherwise it’s not going to do for you what you

want it to do. If you really want it to be that artistic, I just

can’t imagine how many times they’re really going to need

to be that beautiful.

Robert: It’s for you. It’s not a picture you’re drawing for somebody

else.

Jamie: Not usually, not usually. That’s an excellent question. I

think a lot of people do battle that, and you just have to

come along side of them and say, “Yes, I understand, but

get over yourself.”

Robert: Yes, so there’s an artistic element to this. Some are quite

pretty actually, but you’re not creating a piece of art.

Jamie: No, and I’m not going to hold myself to that standard,

even though I truly appreciate those that have that gift.

That may be their objective but it’s not my objective.

Jamie: Right.



36

Robert: Yeah, you know I’m looking at this one that I said I

created 25 years ago. I just scanned it in fact to see how it

would come out. It came out pretty good.

It works pretty good, but it’s hardly a great piece of art.

Jamie: It served a purpose that has transcended 25 years and

that’s really cool.

Robert: It really is awesome, if I think of it. This has been my

aspiration – to have the combination of personal growth,

business and family all interconnect.

I have a business at home. I see my wife every day and

integrate personal growth things into my business and

into my relationship etc. etc.

So something like this can be catalytic. It really can. So

you can do a mind map called “How do I want my

business and life to be?” You start making the connections

and drawing whatever format comes out and, pow, there

you have it.

In a few minutes, we’re going to show some kind of mind-

blowing mind maps that do that as well.

So, another question is about images and color. I usually

do a mind map when I’m doing it on paper. I just do it

with pen with no color. But the other day I actually went

out and bought a package of colored pens.

I really want to get into this in color. I can see the

advantage of it. Explain that to us. Why is it useful and

how do you optimize the use of color in an idea map?



37

Jamie: One of the ways that we improve recall and memory, and

sometimes even fun and interest, is through the use of

imagery and color.

It’s one of our five senses, so if I can add color to that and

imagery, now I’ve got something more interesting to look

at, and it’s more memorable.

Robert: Yeah.

Jamie: But it takes time. It takes time to switch pen colors. Not a

lot, but it does take some time. It takes some time to draw

some images.

You have to really ask yourself, “What’s my purpose?”

We’ve talked before about how you do a lot of planning

and presentations.

If all you’re trying to do is throw your ideas down and

plan your presentation, then you’re going to number your

branches and move a few things around, and then you do

your final draft, I don’t know that you need to have the

color.

But color and imagery do have a purpose. Whenever I’m

communicating with someone else, whenever I have an

agenda I’m going to share, whenever I’m doing anything

in a final version with this particular example, I will

almost always have imagery and color.

I want it to be something that people are attracted to and

interested in. A single monotone idea map, especially

created in the software, can be pretty boring to look at if

it’s just black and white on the whole thing. From an



38

interest and a memory and a recall standpoint, that’s

where the power of imagery and color comes in.

I don’t know about you, but I remember when you

couldn’t make a color copy. It was almost looked on as if it

was childish and unprofessional, when in reality our brain

is so attracted to that imagery in color. Why would we get

rid of it?

Robert: Yeah, well, my original mind map was in color and I think

it’s a lot more dynamic. It has a certain kind of energy to it

that you wouldn’t have otherwise.

Jamie: When you close your eyes and you’re not looking at that,

can you see the colors that are there and you know what

triangle is which color and what are the intersection

overlaps and all that kind of stuff?

Robert: Yeah, I used the primary colors of red, yellow and blue

and the intermediate ones are combinations of those

colors.

Jamie: That enhances your recall. Therefore, it makes that

message very, very strong in your mind.

Robert: Yeah.

Jamie: That’s one of the reasons for the imagery and the color.

Robert: Great. That makes sense, but you can start simply. You

don’t have to say, “I have to do a picture for every piece.”

You just start where you start.

Jamie: No. Yep.

Robert: Obstacles, any obstacles that can happen when creating

an idea map?



39

Jamie: Yes, let’s talk about a few of those. Are you familiar with

the term “fish boning?”

Robert: Yeah.

Jamie: Okay, for those that may not be, I think they’re called

Ishikawa Diagrams or something like that.

Anyway, the difference between how an idea map would

look is an idea map has a main branch. And then off of

that main branch, at the very, very end of the main

branch, we call that a trigger point. So that second layer of

branches that would come off the main branch would all

begin at that trigger point.

In a fishbone diagram, and for whatever reason, I’ve seen

so many of my students do this, rather than coming off

the end of the branch, they’ll come of the end of the

branch, but they’ll also come off like midway through the

branch and then two-thirds of the way and one-quarter,

so you have these branches that are sort of hanging off.

If you have a branch at 1:00, they’re sort of hanging down

off of the branch instead of extending from the trigger

point.

Robert: Yeah?

Jamie: What happens is let’s say they have three branches

hanging down, one off the end, one in the middle and one

fairly close to the central image. When I fill all my map

out and I’ve got other main branches, the one that’s

hanging in closest to the center, if I want to add an

additional branch to that, I’ve practically boxed myself in.



40

I don’t know if you can envision what I’m saying. It’s a

little bit difficult to explain without a visual. But you can’t

hardly add branches to that because you’re so far in, and

it’s so close to another main branch that it’s almost

running into.

You have to keep in mind that when we’re adding

branches, we always extend from the end of the branch.

We always add branches from that trigger point.

Robert: Okay.

Jamie: That’s one thing. Sometimes another obstacle is people

will say, “Well there are two ways they can run out of

paper.” Let’s say we’re at a conference again and we’re

working our way through a session that gets quite lengthy.

All of a sudden, I’ve gone from 1:00 all the way around my

idea map to 11:00, and I don’t have any more room for

anymore branches. What do I do?

Robert: Right.

Jamie: So one thing is use the same central image. Grab a second

sheet of paper and use the same central image or title of

the speaker or whatever, and then just put “Page 2” in the

center. Start at 1:00, and off you go.

Robert: That’s a good idea.

Jamie: The other problem that can occasionally be is that I’m on

this branch, but I’m running out of room and I’m actually

going to go off the paper.

Robert: Right.



41

Jamie: One way around that is you could tape a second piece of

paper to it, or you could flip it over and go on to the back

side for the moment.

Robert: Right.

Jamie: You lose some of that gestalt a little bit of having

everything on one page, but at least you capture it in the

moment. So that’s when you were thinking, “Why did I

not bring my laptop computer with me?”

Robert: Right. I even find with the software that all of a sudden

there are so many good ideas and you’re moving things

around just to fit it in, but at least you can move things,

which is nice.

Jamie: Right. One other obstacle is people will say, “How many

details should I put into my map?” Again, if they ask me

that, I know that they haven’t defined their purpose.

If you’ve defined your purpose, whether you’re being

tested on the material, or you’re learning something or

you’re trying to resolve a problem, because of your

purpose, I think you’ll know when to stop. You know

when you’re going past the point of return.

“This is irrelevant. I’m not going to be tested on this stuff,

so why am I capturing it as if I am going to be tested on

it?”

Robert: Right.

Jamie: Defining your purpose is really going to help you with

determining the amount of detail.



42

Robert: Okay, good. So anything else? Any mind maps (I keep

getting it wrong), idea maps, that are more difficult than

others to do?

Jamie: I think, especially for beginners but even as an advanced

technique, capturing notes in the moment can be difficult,

especially if it’s critical information.

I see this a lot with college students because they’re going

into a classroom where the professor is lecturing. This

technique is fairly new to them and they’re having a

difficult time determining a main branch versus a sub

branch. It just gets so overwhelming that they’ll resort to

their linear notes.

What I tell people is, “As you’re getting started, when

you’re trying to take notes in the moment, practice on

something safe.” Conferences are typically safer. A

meeting can be safer.

I don’t know. Watch the news. It goes fast, but at least it

gives you an opportunity to practice. Especially early on

the in-the-moment capturing can be difficult, until your

idea mapping skills exceed your linear note taking skills.

Believe it or not, as an example, in my two-day workshop,

at the end of the second day or near the end of the second

day, I run about a 15-minute video. It’s fairly quick. It’s

edited. It’s unorganized purposely.

I purposely choose it because it was unorganized. I have

them capture live notes in the moment and they’ll all do

it.



43

It will all be somewhat of a struggle, but I’m going to say

95% of the people will say, “Even though that was kind of

difficult, I know I captured more notes using this idea

mapping technique that I could possibly have gotten using

linear notes.”

Robert: Do people find they have more retention as well?

Jamie: Yes.

Robert: Interesting.

Jamie: Because you have to be engaged. Think about it. At the

end of the second day or any kind of time when you’re

kind of tired, you can sort of take notes in a zone. With

idea mapping, because you have to decide where it goes

and what the association is, you have to be in the moment.

You have to be thinking about your thinking as you decide

where you’re going to place the thought. So it engages you

in way that the linear notes don’t always do, and therefore

it also adds a layer of retention in that whole process.

Robert: Okay, good. We’re just trying to give everybody as much

as we can to kind of build a case for the power of mind

mapping.

Hopefully we’re not doing overkill, but I think everyone

gets the basic idea. We’re going to show you some of the

samples now, and then the next thing for you is to choose

something that you want more clarity about and do your

first mind map.

Again, the way I got into this again a few months ago was

through the interview I did with Daphne Gray-Grant on

writing articles. It’s also a great formula for giving you an



44

overview of an article. Anything you want to write or

create in your business and get going, there are unlimited

number of mind maps you can do.

Are you ready to look at some of these mind maps?

Jamie: Yes, I am.

Robert: What we’re going to do is we have these numbered 1

through 10, and you can just open them all up and look at

them. We’re not going go into great detail, just a minute

or so each and Jamie will explain a little bit about what

they are.

Idea Map 1 and the idea in the middle of that is “ACC

501.” What’s this about? It’s a very colorful one.

Jamie: Okay, this one was done by a gal by the name of Jennifer

Web, and she’s one of my clients at Ford. She attended a

class and was failing. It was a master’s accounting class.

This was a map of her master’s accounting class. At the

end of the two days, she said, “You know I was at the

point where I was either going to quit, drop the class, or

move forward.” She said, “I’m going to give this one shot.

I’m going to create an idea map of my entire accounting

class.”

And so she did. Her back was against the wall. What

you’re seeing is her first draft, believe it or not.

About a week before the class, the professor said that he

would allow them each to bring in one sheet of paper. So

she brought in this sheet of paper and she did so well on

the test that she brought her failing grade up to a B+ for

the score she got on her final grade.



45

Robert: No kidding? She used this as a sort of thing to get down

all the major concepts she had to understand about this,

and it helped her learn faster and better.

Jamie: Yes, and one of the things she committed to herself was

she said, “I’m not going to create the association until I

understand the concept.”

Robert: Great. That’s very interesting idea. We might see some

great mind maps like this around marketing.

Jamie: Yes.

Robert: I would love to see some of those because we have all

these ideas and the seven major principles, and how do

they all flow together? After doing this, she really owned

it. That’s what I get. She really owned this whole concept,

and she was close to quitting.

Jamie: Oh yes.

Robert: That’s very interesting. Let’s look at Idea Map 2. It’s very

different, and just in black and white with pen and paper,

but it’s by the same person, right?

Jamie: Yes, it is. Yes, it is.

Robert: This was a much earlier mind map, I understand.

Jamie: This is actually one that she had been wait-listed to take

the class for about a year, and so she would peek over

people’s shoulders that she would see using this particular

technique and did her best to kind of recreate that for her.

I quite honestly don’t even know what the topic is on this

one.



46

Robert: It says, “ITLP,” whatever that is.

Jamie: It’s probably some meeting or project that she was

working on, but notice, this is more fish boney that the

other one. One of the things you talked about, Robert, is

how you can see people’s styles change over time.

Robert: Sure.

Jamie: This is a beautiful example of that. This is how she started

and the previous one is where she was able to go to in not

all that long of amount of time, so we just wanted to show

you guys the contrast on this. We just think it’s

fascinating.

Robert: Yeah and there’s nothing wrong with this mind map. It’s

got a lot of good ideas in it. They’re all interconnected.

Jamie: It worked for her.

Robert: Okay, so Mind Map 3 is the first one done probably with

MindManager.

Jamie: That’s correct. This one is done by Bill Miller, who’s an

executive VP for Nationwide. He actually uses the

software as a dashboard to run his entire business and

life.

Robert: Really?

Jamie: What’s interesting about this kind of a map is it is number

one a folded version because it’s too, too, too large for you

to see the whole thing. But he has links, for example,

managing all his financial accounts. He has links to all of

that.



47

He has links to all the places where he rents his car for

travel stuff. He has links to all the different files within

Nationwide or the websites that are within the company.

I’m losing the word on that, but anyway, you know what I

mean.

All the different things he has to link to during a day,

accounting spreadsheets, Excel spreadsheets, it’s all right

here.

Robert: He can link to actual other documents from this, is that

right?

Jamie: Yes, he can link to Word docs, Office Suite and everything,

websites, files and all of that stuff is built into this so it

drives his business. He comes in in the morning, fires up

his computer – boom. Then from here he decides where

he needs to go.

He’s got all of his goals, all of his vision and all kinds of

stuff for all the people that report to him in here. It’s a

master map that drives his life and business.

Robert: Fantastic, now there’s something for someone that’s

incredibly anal retentive perhaps and really super

organized. You can just see it really has that organized feel

to it.

It’s interesting that some of these really can expand out.

You have that one with the goals that expands out to a

whole mind map in and of itself.

Jamie: Right.

Robert: I assume that’s true of all of these, that they could expand.

You see that little plus sign at the end. If you click that, it



48

has more branches and more branches and more

branches.

Jamie: That’s correct.

Robert: It’s like all these dendrites that are connected in your

brain, so in that way it is a mind map. That’s great. Okay.

The next one is a little simpler. Mind Map 4 is kind of a

mind map about mind maps, “Why Idea Maps for PMs.”

What are PMs?

Jamie: Project managers.

Robert: Project managers, okay.

Jamie: I did this particular one for a webinar I did for about 450

project managers at Boeing. Because it was a fairly new

introduction, we needed to talk about it. We needed to set

the stage for why idea mapping would be an important

tool for project managers.

Then we went through various applications we could use

and how we could use it for various requirements,

gatherings and those types of things and some of the

similar things that we’ve already talked about today.

We presented that in the form of a map for them so they

could get the idea of what we were talking about and at

the same time have some understanding about the

benefits for them.

Robert: Now, did you create this before the presentation or as the

presentation went on.

Jamie: I created it before.



49

Robert: Okay, so you had a pretty good idea of the different ways

it could be used. You have these key ideas, and most of

these key ideas have a picture. So you have “Team

brainstorming,” just by itself and then “Complex

Problems,” “Project Dashboard,” “Export MS Project.” So

how was this received?

Jamie: It was very well received. Part of it was we actually did

some activities throughout the hour with them. The other

thing we did for this particular map is I had some ideas

but we also tailored it with some of the folks at Boeing for

some very specific needs that they had, and we did that

with people that were already using this kind of a tool.

Robert: Okay, good. Again, this is really for presentation.

Excellent. The next one is Idea Map 5. It’s a written one.

It’s very colorful with five major branches, and it sounds

like something related to Intel, “Dual Core Animation,” or

something related to animation and Pentium chips.

Jamie: Yes, this one was done by Gregg Stokes, and he’s an

executive art director for a company called Clarity

Creative Group out of Las Vegas.

It’s a little bit complicated, but in a nutshell he needed to

be able to show relationships and continuity between a

variety of scenarios of 3D animation.

They were going to be introducing the new Intel chip to

the internal sales folks, and they were going to need to be

able to do some animation that was really going to help

serve as a vehicle that would bring an awareness to this

internal sales force and how this new technology should

be explained to their customers.



50

It was also created because they wanted to have

excitement around the way it was used. It’s a very

technical presentation, so it needed to be very, very flashy.

So he created this map after many meetings, and this map

sort of distilled hours and hours of discussion and

conversations and pages of notes into one map. The

project was actually given the green light and they

proceeded to do the full-blown 3D animation for this

internal sales force.

Robert: Great.

Jamie: That’s kind of the nutshell on that one.

Robert: Very powerful. I hope people are getting ideas that these

are things that they can use not just for their own

planning but with their clients.

Jamie: Absolutely.

Robert: Whether you’re a coach, or a consultant or whatever, this

is a very powerful tool you can use.

Idea Map 6 is also a very colorful one. It’s completely

different, “The Youthful Tooth Marketing.” This is

marketing for a dentist called The Youthful Tooth

Company, is that it?

Jamie: Yes. So many kids are afraid of going to the dentist. The

president of this organization is named Jeff Alexander. He

wanted to do a lot of marketing around this whole idea

that coming to the dentist could be just the greatest

experience they could ever imagine, and so they built a

whole marketing plan around this.



51

Just as an aside, one of the hilarious things they did was

have a tooth fairy. There was a phone line in the lobby

that the kids on certain days of the week at certain times

of the day could pick up the phone and call the tooth fairy.

It was silly things like that.

You can see they were outlining budgeting and some of

the methods of marketing they were going to use, both

internal and external, yada yada yada.

Robert: Yeah, it’s a good plan with the outcomes. I like that.

“Serve kids, be happy and make money,” were the big

purposes, and then you’ve got the methods both internal

and external.

Then they have separate branches for internal and

external with more details on them, like phone campaign,

newsletter, etc, etc. Then a budget for it and how to track

things, and then celebration when it’s working, pizza and

cash!

So there’s a lot of fun in this. This is the kind of plan I’d

love to see. It’s not the serious business of marketing. It’s

fun and creative. We’ve got all these things and all these

different pieces and there’s a lot of energy in this. I just

love this.

Jamie: Yes.

Robert: My guess is they’re probably very successful in doing this,

and this is a good demonstration of it.

Jamie: Yes and you can see that his personality is really coming

out in this.

Robert: Yeah.



52

Jamie; Our personality will come out in ours as well.

Robert: Yeah, so that’s inspiring. I love that one. The next one,

Idea Map 7 is completely different.

This is nothing but a bunch of interconnected pictures,

and the very central picture is trees. And so this is a mind

map all about trees, everything about them, from their

flowers to their roots to animals that live in them.

I can’t read all of this. It’s a little blurry on my printout. It

has the kinds of leaves and this and that. Who is this done

by?

Jamie: This is one that came out of Mexico City and it was done

by Roberto Vidales. He’s an ecologist. The reason for all

the pictures is because he’s trying to use this particular

idea map to persuade organizations and individuals to be

more conscientious of our ecosystem.

This is also, I guess, a presentation. It’s sort of a

presentation/marketing example.

Robert: Yeah.

Jamie: I love how he pulled the pictures of all the trees and just

when you blow them up and you can see the larger ones

inside of the MindManager software, it’s just gorgeous.

Robert: Very, very nice and so, again, it creates an expanded

awareness of one major idea, all on one page.

Jamie: Right.

Robert: So this could be the heart of a presentation. That’s great.

The next one is Idea Map 8. It’s a very practical one. In



53

the middle we have the amount they have invested in their

retirement plan or where they have all their money.

Jamie: Yes, that’s the current value of their entire portfolio right

there and this one was actually. For a lot of years people

would ask me if my husband used this tool because he’s in

the financial industry. He’s really tied by FINRA and all

these forms you have to fill out. It’s not like you can

introduce idea mapping.

Then all of a sudden in this past winter, he had a client

who said, “I’ve got this account and this account and this

in American funds and this at Franklin Templeton, gosh

would you just boil it down for me on a single sheet of

paper. Where am I at?” He went, “Oh!”

Robert: Mind maps! Idea map!

Jamie: “Oh my golly, I could be doing this!” He grabbed the

software, and he’s been doing this for clients ever since.

And so in a very simple, simple, simple way he can show

the client where they started, where they’re at year-to–

date, what they did in 2008 or 2009 or second quarter or

whatever the slice in time is, where they’re at with each

account and then the total. Most of these people have

never seen anything like this.

Robert: It’s so simple. You have, obviously, a husband and wife.

You’ve made it anonymous, “Mr. Client and Mrs. Client,”

so each of them have two main things, a Roth IRA or a

trust account and then a rollover IRA and a trust account

and the amount in each of those.



54

Then they have links to websites and stuff for all of this

right in there. I love it. And then the portfolio summary is

how well everything is doing etc, etc and there you have it.

Jamie: Right. Right.

Robert: Fantastic.

Jamie: You know what’s neat about this is if anybody ends up

getting the MindManager software, you can roll. You can

take all the budgets from your company or your clients

company and you can literally pull those numbers from

Excel into something like this where you could see it all.

Robert: Wow.

Jamie: It even allows you to have a little, mini-spreadsheet that

you can populate. Anyway, if anybody wants some help

with that, just give me a holler.

Robert: Okay, we’ll have a link to Jamie for people who want help

with more sophisticated applications of this.

Okay, we have a couple more. Idea Map 9 is completely

different. This is like a marketing piece that is like an idea

map.

Jamie: I love this one, and this is done actually by one of my

certified instructors. She’s the director of the Global

Research Library for Franklin Templeton. Her name is

Larisa Brigevich and her organization is a global

organization.

She has an organization in India. She has an organization

here in the States. But because the Global Research



55

Library isn’t a profit center, they have to be able to market

their value to the rest of the organization.

This was just one of her creative pieces that she used over

the holidays last year to share what their organization

offered and provided for the rest of the global

organization. It really went over quite well.

I just think it’s really clever that they dropped it into the

snowflake.

Robert: Exactly, so the people on this call could adapt this to,

“Here’s all our services or all the basic things we offer or

all our main benefits,” that you could give to a client. But

you’ve made this into a nice, “season’s greetings” mailing

that’s kind of fun and engaging.

It draws you in mind maps. Here’s the six different areas,

and then each of those has branches. It’s so much more

fun and interesting than, “Here’s a list of all the things

that we do.”

Jamie: Right.

Robert: That’s as boring as burnt toast. That’s very innovative. I’ve

never seen anything quite like that, but you see it’s pretty

simple.

Jamie: Yes.

Robert: Okay, we have a couple more. Idea Map 10 is also a fun

drawn one, “Career Opportunities.”

Jamie: I like this one. Again, this is one that looks really pretty.

Resist the temptation to hold your standard that high, as I

have to, but most of you know that in the Detroit area



56

over the last several years it has been pretty tough in the

automotive industry.

And so one of the things that we’ve been having people do

in the classes is to really spend some time looking at

vision and mission. And this gentleman looked at, “As I’m

going forward, not knowing whether I’m going to be at

Ford, what’s going to be up with my life?

“Do I start a new business?” You’ll see that upper left-

hand corner, “I might write a novel,” there’s the pink at

about 11:30 a.m., “Write children’s books, maybe a

cookbook.

“Might I stay at Ford and if so, what might that look like?

What are the risks? What are the benefits? What might I

aspire to?” He was a budget supervisor.

“Do I stay in Michigan? What do I want to do when I grow

up?” It’s a really complete brain dump of all the

possibilities and everything that was going on in his mind

at that point and time.

Robert: A possibilities mind map. I love that idea, especially if

you’re in a turning place in your life. You’re going to

move. Your business is changing. Who knows? You throw

it all up, and do you know what he ended up doing?

Jamie: You know what? I lost track of him. I tried to stay in touch

with him for a while. I know he’s not at Ford. Once I lost

that email, I’m still waiting for him to find me again.

Robert: But he moved on, and this was hopefully a key, pivotal

piece of that. That’s great.

Jamie: Yeah.



57

Robert: The last one is kind of a big, long one, “Rebuilding

downtown Manhattan.” A little project like that, who is

this done by?

Jamie: This was done by David Hill, when 9/11 occurred. The

main energy company in Manhattan is called Con Edison.

I can’t even imagine trying to get my arms around what

that must have looked at.

I had to make this at 100% just to even see some of the

imagery and some of the words that were written here.

What they did was say, ‘We’ve got to rebuild this

infrastructure. How in the world are we going to do it?”

It just so happens that Con Edison is one of the largest

users of the MindManager software. One of their experts

sat down and they began to get their arms around every

task force, every federal agency, every department within

New York City, every governmental agency, whether it’s

state, New York, New Jersey, you know, civic and

everything they felt like they were going to have to do

went into this map.

If you look closely at the central image, if you can zoom in

on that, you can actually see that it’s the map of

downtown Manhattan. I thought that was kind of clever.

But the end of the story is they consider this to be pivotal

in their success and in their detail and in the results of

getting Manhattan up and running.

It was so critical to them, in fact, that they’ve got it framed

and it hangs in the lobby in the Con Edison Building in

Manhattan.

Robert: No kidding!



58

Jamie: It was instrumental in their success.

Robert: So, this is just not a nice, little cute thing to learn how to

do. It’s an extraordinary process to bring together ideas,

people, resources, you name it and there it is all on one

big page.

Jamie: Right, and this is one of the premier examples of, “How in

the world do I get my mind, my arms, around something

that’s critical, complex and has large volumes of data.”

Robert: Yeah, you know one of the things that I keep hearing from

people regarding marketing is, “I’m overwhelmed.”

Jamie: Right.

Robert: Because there’s so much, well, we’re really giving you a

tool to handle overwhelm, because overwhelm is feeling

you have so many things to do, you just don’t know what

to do first. You get them out of your head, onto the paper,

into an idea map and all of a sudden it looks manageable.

It might even look fun.

Jamie: Right, exactly.

Robert: Then you go, “There it all is. What do I have to start

working on first?” But it’s all there in one place, instead of

feeling that, “I’m missing something. I’m forgetting about

this. What about that?” There’s all this stuff and it can be

overwhelming.

We all have a lot of stuff to do, but this is a really great

example of handling probably thousands of people

involved in this.



59

Jamie: I can’t even imagine, especially when you get down into

detailed branches.

Robert: Yes and maybe there’s mind maps that they’ve created for

other, various projects, etc, etc. I’m sure this isn’t the only

thing.

But for everyone in the club, I hope this is giving you

some inspiration to take those ideas. Get them out of your

head. Make it visual. Turn these plans into something you

can look at and then take the next step.

Jamie, I had a lot of fun with you today with this. This was

great. It’s really valuable. This is a session I’m going to

recommend absolutely everyone listen to and read and

study. I think it will help a lot of people.

Jamie: Thank you. I had a lot of fun with you as well.

Robert: So, Jamie, if people are interested in getting help with

MindManager or doing advanced level mind mapping,

they can contact you. I’ll have a link to your webpage.

Jamie: Beautiful.

Robert: I’ll also have a link to your book on Amazon.

Jamie: Okay.

Robert: I definitely recommend getting the book. It’s great. It

really is a very well written step-by-step process of how to

create these maps. If you want to get into it deeply, it’s a

very small investment to learn this strategy.

So thank you very much, Jamie. I appreciate it. Hopefully

we’ll connect again soon.



60

Jamie: You’re very welcome. I thank you for your time as well.

creative breakthroughs with idea mapping 1 robert ...actionplan.com/pdf/nast_09.pdf · expertise...

Documents