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COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO ALLEGATIONS OF POLICE INEFFICIENCY IN KHAYELITSHA AND A BREAKDOWN IN RELATIONS BETWEEN THE

COMMUNITY AND POLICE IN KHAYELITSHA PHASE ONE

Chumile Sal i

Date: 4 February 2014 Source: Pages 1334-1386 of Commission t ranscr ipt

COMMISSIONER: Mr Sal i? MR SALI : Yes. COMMISSIONER: Welcome to the proceedings before the Commission. MR SALI : Thanks. COMMISSIONER : We know that you’ve come a bit of a d istance to be here so we’re especia l ly gratefu l to you, thank you. MR SALI : Okay, i t ’s a p leasure. COMMISSIONER: Mr Sidaki , wi l l you be leading with Mr Sal i? MR SIDAKI : Mr Sal i wi l l be test i fying in Engl ish, Madame Chair. COMMISSIONER: Right . MR SIDAKI : And he is aware that he’s giving publ ic evidence and has no object ion to h is name being publ ished. COMMISSIONER: Yes, i t important that we expla in to every witness that these proceedings are in publ ic and that the test imony that you gi ve may be made pubic including through the media and ensure that you have no object ion to that . MR SALI : No, no object ion. COMMISSIONER : Wel l thank you. And Mr Sidaki has to ld me that you’re going to be test i fying in Engl ish. MR SALI : Okay. COMMISSIONER: And I would therefore l ike to put you under oath. CHUMILE SALI: (Sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR SIDAKI : Thank you, Madame Chair. Mr Sal i , dur ing 2012 when th is Commission was establ ished you were work ing for Eskom as procurement of f icer at i ts head of f ice in Megawatt Park in Johannesburg, correct? MR SALI : That ’s correct , yes. MR SIDAKI : Now you were at your of f ice one day busying yoursel f wi th matters of a procurement of f icer and you looked at the news for the day and you came across a report that the Commission of Inquiry for Khayel i tsha had been establ ished by the Premier of the Western Cape, correct? MR SALI : Yes, that ’s correct . MR SIDAKI : When you read th is report was i t an onl ine report on the computer? MR SALI : Yes, i t was on IOL Independent Newspapers Onl ine. MR SIDAKI : Independent Onl ine? MR SALI : Yes. MR SIDAKI : When you read th is report about the establ ishment of the Commission what went through your mind? MR SALI : My react ion was that Commission was long overdue because I

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resided in Khayel i tsha for per iod of two years and also serving the CPF. I can at test that there is a breakdown of re lat ions between the pol ice and the community, so therefore when I saw the not ice I said th is is long overdue and I thought i t wi l l be important for myself a lso and for people of Khayel i tsha to contr ibute in th is Commission. MR SIDAKI : Yes. MR SALI : And so what I d id, I t r ied to get contacts of the Premier ’s spokesperson and then I sent h im an emai l request ing that I ’d l ike to test i fy in th is Commission. MR SIDAKI : Yes, so you made at tempts to get in contact with Commission and eventual ly you provided a statement to the Commission, correct? MR SALI : Yes, that ’s correct . MR SIDAKI: Now you wanted to part ic ipate in the Commission because you had l ived in Khayel i tsha between January 2010 and January 2012, correct? MR SALI : That ’s correct . MR SIDAKI : And that was fo l lowing a st int where you had been a student at the Universi ty of the Western Cape where you graduated at end of 2010 with an LLB degree, correct? MR SALI : That ’s correct . MR SIDAKI : Okay. And when you then moved to l ive in Khayel i tsha having completed your LLB degree you l ived in Makhaza in Harare, Khayel i tsha, correct? MR SALI : Makhaza. I t ’s in Makhaza but i t ’s under the Harare pol ice precinct , yes. MR SIDAKI : And you were rent ing in Makhaza, correct? MR SALI : Yes, that ’s correct . MR SIDAKI : Now te l l the Commission how i t happened that you got involved in the Community Polic ing Forum? MR SALI : Okay, when I f i rst arr ived here one the issues that I observed was the high level of cr ime with in the community. To me, coming f rom Eastern Cape in Uitenhage to Khayel i tsha, to me Makhaza was an abnormal s i tuat ion, i t was not an environment wi l l my chi ldren wi l l grow in because of the cr ime level that I saw in the community. MR SIDAKI : Okay. When you ta lk of cr ime level that you say in the community what was happening? MR SALI : No, there were – a week wi l l not pass by without hearing a gunshot in the community or hearing stor ies that a certa in person or a person that you know has been stabbed or robbed and house break -ins as wel l . Ja and my landlord, the person whom I was rent ing to, at that t ime he was the PRO of the CPF so we used to communicate regular ly about h is work and so forth. So I developed interest, I a lso informed him that I would l ike to part ic ipate in the community act ivi t ies and also contr ibute in the f ight against cr ime in the communi ty, so that’s where my interest developed to part icular ly CPF. MR SIDAKI : And so through your landlord, who was a PRO of the – was i t the Harare pol ice stat ion as a CPF? MR SALI : Yes. MR SIDAKI : You then got involved in matters to deal with the commu nity and Community Pol ic ing, correct? MR SALI: Yes, because we used to d iscuss, he used to come to me for advice and so forth so he used to d iscuss CPF related matters, whi lst I was not in CPF,

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I a lso used to attend community meet ings where cr ime was the discussion of the day. Ja. So but when I got e lected there was an AGM organised by the ( indist inct) CPF and SAPS, i t was held in Makhaza, so I was the delegate for the Masimat izani(?) which is the youth organisat ion that is deal ing with upl i f tment of young people in the community so I was a delegate and then I was elected. MR SIDAKI : And you served as a secretary of the Harare Community Pol ic ing Forum, correct? MR SALI : That ’s correct . MR SIDAKI : And you were secretary of that CPF for some four mon ths? MR SALI : Yes, for four months, yes. MR SIDAKI : And i t was between what t ime and what t ime that you served in the CPF? MR SALI : September 2011 towards the end of December 2011. MR SIDAKI : Now you say you at tended community meet ings, you know, where issues of cr ime were discussed. What were the issues that came about that were discussed? MR SALI : I t was most ly robbery and that people were unable to move at n ight because they’d be robbed, murders as wel l , housebreaking. Ja, those are the issues, and also the conduct of patro l lers was al l the issues that were discussed more of ten, ja, than another issues as wel l . MR SIDAKI : So how did the patro l lers come about? MR SALI : The patro l lers were members of the community who were fed -up about cr ime in the community. They were of the bel ief that the pol ice are not doing enough to protect them so they took i t up on themselves to organise themselves and patro l at n ight , so i t means that they didn’ t have batons and other stuf f so what they wi l l do is that at n ight any person who is walking af ter ten o’c lock they wi l l at tack them and beat them, women, chi ldren and elderly people as wel l , so there were complaints with in the community. The community said okay f ine, we appreciate your commitment, you cont r ibut ion in the community but what we cannot to lerate is your vio lat ing our r ights because ci t izens have got a f reedom of movement because there are people who working up t i l l late, so when people come back f rom work they get at tacked and others – you women were sleeping over as wel l . So ja, there were many complaints. MR SIDAKI : Now why were the community conduct ing their own patro ls, why didn’ t – why wasn’ t that service provided by the pol ice? MR SALI : No, that ’s not - a feel ing f rom community members was that the pol ice are not vis ib le and that when they report cases i t takes t ime for pol ice to respond in some instances they don’t ’ respond at a l l so i t was important for community members most ly e lder ly men in the community who are unemployed who wi l l gather around 8 p.m. unt i l the fo l lowing morning at s ix. So i t was rout ine, there wi l l be shif ts, people on Saturday, the ones who went in on Saturday won’t go in on Sunday and so forth. MR SIDAKI : In fact you on an occasion in 2011 you at tended a meet ing that had been cal led in one of the local h igh schools. Please share wi th the Commission what happened, why that meet ing was cal led, who cal led i t and what happened at the meet ing? MR SALI : The meet ing was in Harry Gwala High School in Makhaza, 39 Sect ion. I t as organised by the workers ( indist inct) the school pr incipal and the parents. I t was most ly on gangster ism in the area because parents were complain ing the chi ldren, their chi ldren, are not going to school because they

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fear that they might be at tacked at school and the pr incip le as wel l was concerned abut the safety of the chi ldren and safety of the educators as wel l because these gangsters they entered school premises the teachers are also vulnerable or they might be vict im of cr imes as wel l . So the meet ing was about gangster ism and the gang leaders were also invi ted to that meet ing. They pledged publ ic ly that they wi l l stop their act ivi t ies because i t a lso af fect their academic progress and so on but i t d id not stop, i t cont inued. MR SIDAKI : And so you jo ined the local CPF to assist your community in matters to deal with securi ty. What were your observat ions of the running of the Harare CPF? In the f i rst instance you said that when you jo ined the old CPF board had just – was handing over to a new board? MR SALI : Yes, that ’s correct . MR SIDAKI : Okay. MR SALI : When I entered there the outgoing CPF was dysfunct ional but they managed through the assistance of SAPS to go through an AGM so that there are new structures in p lace to t ry to create a l ink between the pol ice and the community. So when we occupied our of f ice i t wasn’t our task, I wi l l admit, because there were no structures in p lace for the CPF. Also there were patro ls but they were not organised and CPF didn’ t have sub -forums and also there are other issues that CPF i tsel f was not supported by SAPS because in Harare at that t ime, when I was serving, I don’t know about now, there was no CPF of f ice, there were no equipments. So as the secretary I used to use my laptop and my pr in ter at home to do CPF work and that was discouraging, I ’ l l admit . Also the issue of a vehic le, most people who were in CPF where I was serving were unemployed, there were only about one or two people who were employed and others wi l l get casual jobs, becoming a cleaner for two days, three days, and then come back and stay in the township. So i t d id not – and Harare pol ice precinct is a very large area so for you to t ravel f rom one place – f rom point A to B, you need to take a taxi . So for an unemployed person to t ravel i t was a big d i f f icul ty so we used to organise transport with SAPS pol ice vans and there were minimal of them, so i t means that i f you have a meet ing, a CPF f rom 5 to 6 p.m. we wi l l wait up unt i l 9 o ’c lock for a pol ice van to come and tak e us to our p laces of residence and that was discouraging. I t a lso gave us picture as to why was the previous CPF ( indist inct) because there was no structures in p lace to support the CPF. MR SIDAKI : But you appreciated of course that pol ice need to use pol ice vans for matters to do with pol ic ing? MR SALI : I appreciate that fact and one of the reasons is that, as I indicated in my af f idavi t , is that there were also minimal – few pol ice vans that were operat ional at that sect ion as wel l . So we used to r e ly on them because we were unemployed at that t ime. So we could not walk, i t was not safe for us as wel l . MR SIDAKI : Now when you jo ined the CPF did i t go through any induct ion? MR SALI : Yes, there was two induct ions in fact by the Department of Community and Safety. The other one was in Mitchel ls Pla in pol ice stat ion, the other one was in – I ’m not sure about the area but i t was in Mfuleni , i t was l ike a pol ice col lege, i t was in that area, so there was induct ion. MR SIDAKI : And what does a CPF induct ion entai l? MR SALI : I t entai ls the dut ies and funct ions of the of f ice bearers and also the dut ies, the aims and object ives as to why we have CPF. I t was more on CPF

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const i tut ion and also how to maintain re lat ions between the community and the pol ice. Ja, i t was more about what was expected out of us and what form of act ions we should devise as the CPF. MR SIDAKI : And certa in ly the CPF const i tut ion envisages that the stat ion commander of the pol ice stat ion should be involved with the CPF. What wa s the experience of the stat ion commander at Harare pol ice stat ion at the t ime? MR SALI: Okay, dur ing my four month tenure i t was a bad experience, I wi l l say, because when we entered there was a distr ict commander who resigned or redeployed, h is name was Nel. So when he resigned we had about three act ing stat ion commanders in that ( indist inct) when I was there. So as the CPF we’ l l engage them on our programmes and none of them – that was the bad experience about i t – none of them wi l l commit SAPS on wo rking together because we were preparing also for the fest ive season, because normal ly we have programmes for the fest ive season because the fest ive season is a h igh level of l iquor consumpt ion and cr ime rates and so forth. So we were preparing, as the CPF. So we never get any commitment, we also t r ied to engage them that as CPF we cannot operate on our p laces of residence because we are not staying alone, others are marr ied, they stay with partners, so we cannot CPF documents in our premises, we need an of f ice. So we could not get that commitment and none of them commit ted and I remember one commissioner, he stated pr ior i ly that he’s only act ing capacity, he doesn’t know when he’ l l redeployed or sent somewhere else so he cannot commit h imself , ja wel l CP F matters. MR SIDAKI : Now as the CPF you had to have – was i t weekly meet ings with the pol ice? MR SALI : Correct. MR SIDAKI : And you had to have fortn ight ly meet ings as the CPF. Now te l l the Commissioner about the weekly meetings with the SAPS. MR SALI: The weekly was more of a feedback f rom sector commanders on – i t was more on stat ist ics as to – for example, in sector 1 there were three murders th is week, three house – three break- ins, one rape and so forth. So i t was more of paint ing a picture as to what is happening in d if ferent sectors and which areas need more at tent ion and so forth. Ja, so CPF wi l l a lso come there and engage with SAPS. I ’ l l admit that the meet ings were open for d iscussion, we were able to engage as wel l as CPF to ra ise our issues in those meet ings. So they were more as to h ighl ight ing how many cr imes were commit ted f rom the previous Tuesday to that Tuesday morning. MR SIDAKI : And did you f ind that there was a meaningful contr ibut ion f rom the act ing stat ion commanders in t hose meet ings? MR SALI : Not ent i re ly because most people who were report ing were sector commanders and invest igators. I t was more of a feedback f rom sector commanders. Ja, I wi l l say, not necessari ly a stat ion commander. MR SIDAKI : And what was the part ic ipat ion of the stat ion commander in those meet ings, i f at a l l? MR SALI : There were three dif ferent stat ion commanders. Ja, a l l of them were part ic ipat ing I wi l l say, yes. MR SIDAKI : Yes. Now at these weekly meet ings did you ra ise – you pointed out issues of – that were ra ised by the community of lack of response, etcetera, d id you ra ise those issues at these meet ings? MR SALI : Yes, the CPF we raised those issues because some of the cr imes

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that were reported by sector commanders, they also came to our knowledge as CPF members. So I wi l l say also as much as we agreed that there were two robberies, a lso i f the CPF – i f SAPS responded t imeously maybe a certa in incident would have been prevented. So we used to raise our issues as CPF as wel l . MR SIDAKI : And what was the feedback f rom the pol ice? Why couldn’ t they respond t imeously? MR SALI : The major issue that they ra ised was the absence of pol ice vehic les which is your vans. They said that most of their vans are not operat ional. As a CPF secretary I can also attest to that because some of the pol ice vans, i f not most, were parked in Harare pol ice stat ion, so that ’s why my af f idavi t referred i t as mini scrap yard because there are pol ice vehic les that are parked there that are not operat ing, so there were few that were operat ional. Ja, say i f for example there’s an incident in Endlovin i at the same t ime an incident at 36 sect ion i t wi l l be di f f icul t for pol ice to at tend to the same cr ime at the same t ime – to a d if ferent cr ime at the same t ime because of the vehic le. MR SIDAKI : So al though there are problems with vehic les, operat ional vehic les to attend to cal ls but you could see vehic les parked in the pol ice garage but why were they parked there? MR SALI : Because they were not repaired, they were not serviced, so there were there not operat ing. MR SIDAKI : Okay. And th is issue of act ing stat ion commanders, you said you had three in the space of four months? MR SALI : Yes. MR SIDAKI : What d id i t do to the leadership of the stat ion, i f anything, that you observed? MR SALI : In our second month in October, as the CPF, af ter we were inducted, we developed a programme of act ion, we cal led an AGM or a meet ing of our af f i l ia tes and our POA, programme of act ion, was endorsed, so we took i t to the stat ion commander who was act ing then, h is name then was – I th ink was Mr Abel. Ja, Abel. So we said th is is our POA, we’d l ike to integrate to SAPs programme for the forthcoming twelve months. He could not comment. He said no - the same excuse that I gave earl ier on, that he can’t commit because he’s there on a temporary basis, he might be moved redeployed somewhere else. So fo l lowing in my view, i f you are in a senior posi t ion, a stat ion commissioner, you are employed to take decis ions but yo u are unable to take decis ions, i t shows a lack of leadership. Even i f you are act ing or you are permanent ly employed, you don’t decis ion, you take decis ion on behalf of the organisat ion, which is SAPS. So if you die tomorrow, that ’s immateria l , there’s a re lat ion or an agreement between SAP and the CPF. So to me i t was lack of leadership. MR SIDAKI : And that indecis iveness, what d id i t do to the morale on the one hand, the CPF members, and on the other hand the members of the SAPS stat ioned at Harare? MR SALI : I t d id not d irect ly af fect a number of CPF members because we were – we knew that you do ( indist inct) and we need to engage SAPS. So the issue that was ( indist inct) our morale was the issue of the t ransport and the resources. On the SAPS side as wel l because we used to engage the sector commanders because we wi l l go to them in publ ic meet ings. L ike the communit ies wi l l cal l meet ings and invi te CPF and SAPS to ra ise issues that af fect ing them. So on our engagement with SAPS or pol ice of f ic ia ls , they wi l l

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ra ise that they are also demot ivated because there’s lack of leadership and also the issue of the t ransport because I remember one sector commander in sector 2, that area of Makhaza, he used to come to work with h is pr ivate vehic le, i t was a Venture, i f I ’m not mistaken, Venture or Condor. He’ l l come to work with h is vehicle and do SAPS work with h is vehic le. So there are pol ice of f ic ia ls who are commit ted but in my view, I th ink at Harare pol ice stat ion there’s l i t t le support for such members hence the low morale. MR SIDAKI : In fact where as the CPF you real ise there’s chal lenges in working with at the pol ice stat ion that you assigned, what would i t do to the conf idence of the CPF members in re lat ion to the pol ice? MR SALI : I can’ t give you a clear answer on that one. As I ’ve said that our main concern – so when we occupied of f ice were real ised that the previous CPF did not do much work so we need to set up structures in p lace, l ike have a – as a proper structure that is the creat ion of th e const i tut ion, we had to ensure that the CPF has an of f ice space and also a regular t ransport . I f , for example, there’s a meet ing cal led by DOCS in Mitchel ls Pla in, I should not wait for two hours to get t ransport , you see? So our major issues were most ly on our needs as the CPF. So some members at that t ime were ( indist inct) in of f ice for months. I don’t know af ter I lef t what t ranspired. MR SIDAKI : I ask you th is quest ion, Mr Sal i , because the commission has evidence before i t by Ms Nxapanapa(?) wh o l ives in Harare who when she couldn’ t get help f rom the pol ice contacted the Chairperson of the Harare CPF and the Harare CPF Chair referred her to the Taxi Associat ion to address her problem. Does i t sound to you l ike a proper th ing to happen? MR SALI : I f there’s evidence i t means that I can’t contest that statement but ideal ly that should not happen as a CPF member who have been inducted, you’ve gone through the processes – especia l ly the Chairperson because you are the face of the organisat ion so t he Chairperson should have taken proper steps because once you take a human being to the taxi rank you might as wel l give that person to the dogs because you are saying that that person must be ki l led, that ’s what you are saying, and as a CPF member you ar e supposed to uphold human r ights because i t ’s also stated in the CPF const i tut ion that you need to l ia ise between the pol ice and the community and ensure that the SAPS don’t abuse the basic r ights of the ci t izens so that is an unfortunate incident and that Chairperson should be held responsib le for that . MR SIDAKI : Did you f ind when you served in the CPF that there were complaints against CPF members or not? MR SALI : There were complaints or complaints and percept ions as wel l because there were percept ions f rom community members that i f there’s a dispute between community member and a CPF member the pol ice wi l l take the sides of CPF members and also CPF members wi l l abuse their re lat ions with pol ice in inf r inging the r ights of community members. So there were those instances, we used to get them. MR SIDAKI : I see. In your view having part ic ipated and worked in the CPF in Harare, d id you th ink that those percept ions were val id or not? MR SALI : They were not f rom one so in my view they were val id and f rom di f ferent people as wel l , d i f ferent CPF members, yes. MR SIDAKI : Now you’ve spoken about the chal lenges that you faced as a CPF in order to funct ion. MR SALI : Yes.

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MR SIDAKI : I mean was the CPF funded at a l l? Was i t provided with any resources? MR SALI : There were no resources, none so ever. So – and that on i ts own, i t k i l ls the purpose of having CPFs if there are no resources, no of f ices, no vehic les for the execut ion of CPF duties because we exist as CPF to create that l ink or to be the bridge between the pol ice and the community, so i f you are not resourced, you are unemployed, you are expected to work f rom your own pockets and in a pr ivate space which is your p lace of residence. Ja. MR SIDAKI : I t makes your job dif f icul t . MR SALI : Makes your job dif f icul t , extremely d i f f icul t , ja . Because as secretary I was also unemployed at that t ime, so what I used to do, I used to go to Ward Counci l lors to ask for paper and so forth just to pr int a let ter because we are unable to pr int because we do not have an of f ice. MR SIDAKI : And did you f ind the Ward Counci l lors helpfu l? MR SALI : The what? MR SIDAKI : Did you f ind the Ward Counci l lors helpfu l? MR SALI : Some were helpfu l , some were helpfu l , ja , because they were also st i l l new that s ide at that t ime in 2011. So they wanted to prove to the community that they are working as wel l . MR SIDAKI : Now you’ve since lef t Khayel i tsha, you now l ive in Johannesburg, you f lew down especia l ly to give th is evidence before the Commission, cor rect? MR SALI : That ’s correct . MR SIDAKI : Did you make contact recent ly with the local CPF people to f ind out what the si tuation is now? MR SALI : Yes I d id make a contact yesterday with th is other lady, she was the coordinator in our CPF, she’s a lso CPF member in the current one, the one that preceded our CPF. So I asked as to – I informed her that I am going to test i fy in th is Commission and ask her what are the chal lenges, i t is the exact chal lenges that are lef t when I was st i l l the CPF secretary in 2011, so there are no changes. MR SIDAKI : Was i t her feedback to you? MR SALI : That was her feedback to me, yes. MR SIDAKI : Now as the CPF what other chal lenges did you f ind, you know, d id you have a good at tendance record of members of the CPF or …? MR SALI : Yes, we had a good – because we never cancel led a meet ing because of quorum at that t ime and must a lso bear in mind that i t was the f i rst four months in of f ice and the interest was st i l l h igh at that t ime, we were newly e lected in the of f ice. So we used to have good records in our meet ings, in our programmes as wel l . MR SIDAKI : Now you’ve spoken about the chal lenges in pol ic ing and people eventual ly forming themselves to patro l their streets, d id you observe any issues re lat ing to vigi lant i sm or not? MR SALI : I d id experience i t once but i t d id not happen because that was at the period when I was st i l l CPF secretary that t ime, there was a young man who grabbed a young lady’s cel l phone and the community members managed to apprehend him, so they were about to – they were start ing to beat h im so I came in and I said no, I ’ l l cal l SAPS, we’ l l deal with th is issue legal ly, people should not take law in their hands. Ja but in the community general ly there were many incidences that were reported of vigi lant ism, people taking law into their hands especia l ly in an area cal led Enkanini , you’ l l hear stor ies that a person was

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necklaced for steal ing a phone or for breaking in and so forth, so i t was a general phenomenon around the community because i f t here’s a th ief we take the law into our own hands. But what I f ind most d isturbing about vig i lant ism is that we f ind that there are chi ldren around so the people who are doing that they don’t take into consequence that they are ki l l ing morale f ibre of soc ie ty because once you start k i l l ing regular ly people in f ront of chi ldren you are breeding other cr iminals as wel l because when they grow up they won’t fear that , i t wi l l be easy for them to jo in gangster ism and so forth, so there were many – a lso even eTV, eNews channel ran a documentary on vigi lant ism in Khayel i tsha, there were many cases that were displayed there on TV. MR SIDAKI : And in your view what causes people to engage in vigi lante act ivi t ies? MR SALI : I t ’s the absence of t rust between the com munity and the pol ice I wi l l say and also the t ime that the pol ice respond to incidents in the township and also loss of fa i th or lack of fa i th in the cr iminal just ice systems as wel l because we wi l l take a suspect A, the community wi l l hand him over to th e pol ice, the fo l lowing week suspect A wi l l be re leased because of lack of evidence and so forth and suspect A wi l l cont inue to commit cr ime in the community because most people who are vict ims of vigi lant ism are known cr iminals with in the community, you see, so community comes to a conclusion that i f we don’t deal with suspect A no one wi l l deal because we’ve t r ied, we’ve taken him to the pol ice, he went to court , he st i l l not arrested, so the best way is to do the in just ice to suspect A. MR SIDAKI : In fact , Mr Sal i , you have – you once received a message on your cel lu lar phone? MR SALI : Yes, correct . MR SIDAKI : Tel l the Commission about that message? MR SALI : No, i t ’s a c l ip of most ly schoolchi ldren at tacking a naked man suspected of – I ’m not sure what cr ime he was suspected of , but a suspected cr iminal being at tacked by schoolchi ldren and community members. MR SIDAKI : Where did th is message come f rom, do you know? MR SALI: I t was through socia l networking, Whatsapp, Mixi t , securi ty around the area. MR SIDAKI : And was i t just being widely …? MR SALI : W idely c irculated, yes. MR SIDAKI : Circulated? MR SALI : Most ly by young people. MR SIDAKI : Madame Commissioner, at th is moment I would l ike to play th is video for the Commission but I must state that i t is a video that is d isturbing and …(intervent ion) COMMISSIONER: Has a copy of th is video been given to any of the other legal representat ives? Are they aware of th is? MR SIDAKI : They are not aware of i t , Madame Chair. COMMISSIONER: Can you give us a quick (a) what ’s in i t and (b) why you th ink you want to show i t so we can see whether there are l ikely to be object ions. I have to say i t ’s news to the Commissioners as wel l . MR SIDAKI : I t is merely a – as expla ined by the wi tness – a person who is being at tacked fo l lowing accusat ions …(intervent ion) COMMISSIONER: Is th is pasted on socia l media, i t l inks to the quest ion about socia l media, does i t?

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MR SIDAKI : That is correct . COMMISSIONER: So th is was the actual – a short Youtube cl ip or something that you received by socia l media? MR SALI : I received i t via Whatsapp. COMMISSIONER: Sorry? MR SALI : Via Whatsapp. COMMISSIONER: Mr Arendse do you have any di f f icul ty with us seeing th is short video cl ip that was circulated presu mably – do know how broadly? MR SIDAKI : 40 seconds. MR ARENDSE: Madame Commissioner, why were we not to ld about th is before the witness test i f ied? There’s no reference to i t in the af f idavi t . Every day – I ’m sorry, every day there’s something addit ion al that the evidence leaders are leading the witnesses on and we’re here to cooperate and every day, you know, we leave i t and as long as we an opportuni ty of deal ing with i t . Now I don’t know what th is c l ip is going to be but i f i t ’s what some of the wit nesses have already graphical ly descr ibed, I don’t see the purpose of i t being shown to the Commission other than for the media that ’s here and – ja , I . . . There’s other issues about who sent i t to h im, when was i t sent? Al l that k ind of th ing. The person or persons who sent i t to h im on Whatsapp, were they actual ly present when th is incident took place, how was i t f i lmed? There’s issues with i ts authent ic i ty, a l l k inds of issues. But, Madame Commissioner, we leave i t in your hands. COMMISSIONER: Mr Hathorn? MR HATHORN : Commissioners, we’ve got no object ion to i t . COMMISSIONER: I personal ly would l ike a l i t t le bi t more explanat ion, Mr Sidaki , as to what the purpose of th is is. MR SIDAKI : Madame Chair, i t ’s a – the video came – the existence of the video came to my at tent ion short ly before the witness test i f ied. The witness is based in Johannesburg and we only – the f i rst opportuni ty of consult ing with h im was th is morning just before the proceedings started. COMMISSIONER: Why is i t re levant to us to see th is, what value is the Commission going to take away f rom i t? MR SIDAKI : Wel l , i t t ies in with h is evidence and with evidence of other witnesses of vig i lante attacks that happen in the community. I t shows quick graphical ly the way in which t hese at tacks take place in broad dayl ight in fu l l view of general members of the community and i t i l lustrates the point of what people – how people vent their anger at suspected cr iminals. COMMISSIONER: What is the provenance in the authent ic i ty? MR SIDAKI : As far as I ’m concerned, you know, th is Commission is not proving any cr iminal gui l t against anyone, the str ict ru les of evidence …(intervent ion) COMMISSIONER : I ’m not considering str ict ru les of al l – but how do we know that th is was f i lmed in Khayel i tsha that i t isn’ t come mock -up f rom somewhere else. I mean, I - you know, I want to know why i t is that we th ink we – that th is in fact is something that ’s something to a Khayel i tsha Commission …(intervent ion) MR SIDAKI : The witness can test i fy to i t , Madame Chair, obviously one can see the surroundings and the witness can test i fy as to why he bel ieves that that is in fact in Khayel i tsha. COMMISSIONER: When was i t received? MR SIDAKI : He would have received i t dur ing the t ime that he st i l l l ived in

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Khayel i tsha. COMMISSIONER: Is that correct? You received th is in 2011? MR SALI : Yes, that ’s correct . COMMISSIONER: Okay, so we could perhaps have actual ly had access to i t pr ior to today? MR SIDAKI : As I say, Lady Chair , i t came to my at tent io n only th is morning. I t ’s something that the witness thought he should br ing with h im to show to the Commission. MR ARENDSE: Madame Commissioner, just before you confer, excuse me. Ja, apart f rom the issue of authent ic i ty and th is witness now appears to have received i t before he made his af f idavi t , so there’s no explanat ion why i t wasn’t disclosed to whoever draf ted the af f idavi t or took instruct ions on i t . There is the issue of th is being shown in publ ic. We don’t even know, th is matter, i f i t was in Khayel i tsha, i t may even be the subject of an invest igat ion, we don’t know. I f i t isn’ t then the ident i ty of the perpetrat or or perpetrators and the people standing around, that now becomes publ ic. I th ink i t ’s – i f th is const i tutes evidence of a vigi lante at tack then the proper th ing to do is to refer i t to the pol ice as a matter that they should take up and show i t to them and they must invest igate i t . COMMISSIONER : I th ink we’ve decided we won’t see i t now, we wi l l take a view over luncht ime which may involve the Commissioners seeing i t and decid ing whether we consider i t prima facie as valuable to the work of the Commission but we do not th ink i t ’s appropriate to be shown at th is stage. MR SIDAKI : As the Commission pleases. COMMISSIONER: This has got nothing to do with you, Mr Sal i , th is is – we’re gratefu l for everyth ing you’ve done to br ing informat ion before the Commission. MR SALI : Okay. COMMISSIONER: But the Commission needs to be sat isf ied. Our general process has been that everyth ing that is going to be – evidence that’s been given, l ike your statement, has been made avai lable to the legal representat ives here beforehand which al lows them to prepare for what informat ion is going to put before the Commission and th is obviously would be an except ion to that ru le and we’re not minded to grant i t at that stage. MR SALI : Okay, thanks. COMMISSIONER: You may cont inue, Mr Sidaki . MR SIDAKI : Thank you, Madame Chair. Mr Sal i , another aspect that you’ve ident if ied as problemat ic in Khayel i tsha refers to vio lence as in del ivery protests, what can you share with the Commission about that? MR SALI : In my view the service del ivery protest, f i rst ly they cr ipple the capacity of the pol ice because when there’s a protest you’ l l f ind that pol ice off ic ia ls f rom other pol ice stat ions are also cal led in to come or to end the protest . So i t cripples them, as I ’ve ment ione d earl ier on that the lack of resources or ( indist inct) even with in the pol ice, so with the minimal resources that they have they are forced to focus on one area whi lst there are other cr iminal act ivi t ies happening on the side. Also, secondly, i t a lso l inks to the breakdown of re lat ions between the pol ice and the community. One, when there’s cr ime house robbery happening the community, community member A wi l l phone the pol ice, the pol ice wi l l come af ter two hours or not come at a l l . But when there are p rotests, community members are f ight ing for water, pol ice of f ic ia ls they come prompt ly, they come with rubber bul lets and then ( indist inct) del iver ing the water that are requested

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by the community. So the possib i l i ty is that – or the feel ing of the commun ity is that when that service del ivery protest , wi th genuine demands f rom community members, pol ice are quick to respond, assisted by Metro Pol ice. But when there are cr imes – when cr imes are being commit ted, pol ice take t ime to respond or don’t respond a t a l l . So to me i t a lso creates that d iscord between the community members and the pol ice because when community members of toyi -toyi ing for water or protest ing for water, they are expect ing pol i t ic ians to come and address them, not pol ice of f ic ia ls, you see? MR SIDAKI : Now the issues – these issues re lat ing to cr ime and pol ic ing in Khayel i tsha have already been addressed at h igher level . The f i rst instance I ’m going to refer you is one that – cal l i t a breakfast meet ing that was convened by the Nat iona l Pol ice Commissioner. When was that held and what was i t about? MR SALI : The meet ing was held in November 2011, i t was at Lukhat i , i t was a breakfast with the pol ice commissioner Bheki, i t was on cr ime in Khayel i tsha and also engagement between various stakeholders, legis latures, educators, CPF’s, SAPS and commit tee members on cr ime in Khayel i tsha and how to tackle and school members were given an opportuni ty including three years to ra ise their concern with the pol ice commissioner, and i t was in that breakfast where he announced that there wi l l be a second pol ice stat ion, there wi l l be another pol ice stat ion in Makhaza, i t was in that session where i t was announced. MR SEDAKI: And another occasion where there was a discussion with senior authori t ies regarding cr ime in Khayel i tsha was a cr ime summit that was hosted by the MSC for community safety in the province and the Premier, can you share that with the commission? MR SALI : Ja, I th ink i t was on the same month, October/November 2011 as wel l , i t was a Khayel i tsha cr ime summit held at New Way Hal l , i t was in fact came f rom the of f ice of the MEC of Community Safety, MEC Plato, i t was addressed by him, and the Premier of the Western Cape, Ms Helen Zi l le , so they made speeches on cr ime, and commit tee mem bers who were present there, including CPF’s, we were clustered in d if ferent groups where we wi l l share our experiences, or a lso come with inputs on how to tackle cr ime in our society, so each grouping had a scr ibe and a chairperson someone who scr ibed, th ereaf ter there were resolut ions that we made in the summit . MR SIDAKI : And both these meet ings were they wel l at tended? MR SALI : They were wel l at tended. MR SIDAKI : Did i t give you a sense that cr ime in Khayel i tsha is real ly a problem and that people want something done about i t? MR SALI : Ja, i t is a chal lenge and whenever there’s a cr ime meet ing, perta in ing to cr ime the people come in numbers to at tend, because they are direct ly affected by cr ime. I t ’s e i ther parents, their chi ldren engagement in cr imi nal act ivi t ies or they want to protect themselves in the community. MR SIDAKI : Now in the beginning of your test imony you l ikened the experience that you had in Khayel i tsha re lat ing to cr ime and pol ic ing to where you came f rom in Uitenhage, you fe l t that in Khayel i tsha i t was – the level of cr ime was disproport ionate, is that correct? MR SALI : Ja, that ’s correct . MR SIDAKI : Yes and if you compare the si tuat ion now to where you l ive, you l ive in Centur ian, what are your percept ions about, how does Khayel i t sha compare to where you l ive now? MR SALI : In terms of cr ime Centur ian is fa ir ly quiet , and also I th ink the

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response comparing Khayel i tsha and Centur ian, in Centur ian the pol ice are quick to respond to cr imes, because I remember even myself last weekend the pol ice came into my place with R5 r i f les, because the neighbour was complain ing about noise, and in Khayel i tsha you wi l l never get such a response. MR SIDAKI : Thank you sir , thank you madam chair I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIDAKI COMMISSIONER : Now I ’m giving the Legal Resources Centre f ive minutes to quest ion th is witness. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATHORN: Mr Sal i you state that incidents of vigi lant ism in Khayel i tsha have been on the increase, was the SAPS stat ion, the personnel at the SAPS in Harare were they aware of the increase in vigi lant ism? MR SALI : Yes, they’re aware, because as I indicated in my previous statement we used to meet with SAPS every Tuesday, so they would report cr iminal incidents and vigi lant ism would al so get reported in those meet ings. MR HATHORN: What were they doing about i t , d id they have any plans in p lace to deal with vigi lant ism? MR SALI : I am not certa in, I don’t know. MR HATHORN: So as far as you were aware there were no such plans? MR SALI : No such plans, a lso when other issue you need to take into considerat ion when there’s vigi lant ism i t ’s not p lanned, because people don’t plan what tomorrow morning you wi l l go and at tack suspect A, i t happens that suspect A is apprehended for commit t ing a cr ime now and people respond now and there. So that’s how i t normal ly happens. MR HATHORN : I just want to make sure that I ’m understanding you correct ly, you say that SAPS knew about i t they were aware of the problem but they didn’t have any plans, as far as you were aware they didn’ t have any plans to address i t or weren’t taking any construct ive ef forts to deal with i t , is that what you are te l l ing us? MR SALI : That ’s not what I ’m te l l ing you, what I said earl ier on is the reason why people respond in that manner is because they have lost fa i th in the pol ice and the just ice systems as wel l , so i t ’s not only SAPS, i t ’s a lso the just ice system as wel l . MR HATHORN: Ja. Was i t regarded as a substant ia l pr ior i ty by any of the management at the stat ion? MR SALI : No i t was not. MR HATHORN: You state in your statement that areas l ike Enkanini and Endlovin i the informal set t lements were not being serviced by SAPS, what d id you mean by that statement? MR SALI : No, I think you heard me incorrect , I mean the areas themselves are not serviced, they are not developed, meaning that i t is hard or d if f icul t for SAPS to respond to a cr ime scene in Enkanini and Endlovin i because every day you go to Enkanini for example Sect ion A when you vis i t the same area tomorrow there’s a mushroom of shacks so you and also there are no roads, no tars in between, also the houses are not numbered, so that ’s where I re layed that statement that the areas are not serviced and in some areas in Enkanini there’s no electr ic i ty so at n ight i t ’s d if f icul t for anyone to walk in there, in the areas, so SAPS is a lso af fected as wel l , and i t is one of the issues that a lso SAPS used to h ighl ight in the incidents that we had, because you go to Endlovin i today there are f ive shacks, you come back the fo l lowing day there are

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ten shacks, so shack number 1 that was there yesterday is now shack number 10. MR HATHORN: Did SAPS patro l in these areas, e i ther foot patro ls or vehic le patro ls? MR SALI : No, there were no foot patro ls, no vehic le patro ls be cause vehicles can’t go inside there. MR HATHORN: The last issue I want to touch on Mr Sal i is the quest ion of the night patro l lers, to what extent were the patro ls guided by the SAPS of f icers, would they meet before and discuss where the patro ls should g o or what areas should be pr ior i t ies, was there any direct ion given to the patro ls by the SAPS management? MR SALI : No there were no guidance f rom SAPS, that’s why I even ra ised i t in my aff idavi t that there are areas that were ra ised by patro l lers, in the f i rst instance that when they patro l in their own clothes they don’t wear any ref lectors, d if ferent iat ing them f rom community members and there are some instances they won’t at tend because people wi l l th ink i f they want to apprehend the cr iminal they wi l l th ink they are cr iminals themselves and they wi l l a lso be vict ims of cr iminals, secondly they don’t have any batons so people wi l l go there with their s jamboks and st icks to patro l , there were also no walkie -ta lk ies, in my view your walkie -ta lk ie communicat ing direct ly with SAPS i f there is an incident, you communicate direct ly with the sector commander or a person responsib le, in that shif t . So there was no coordinat ion. Also, they also had the chal lenge of t ransport as wel l . I f they apprehend the susp ect they wi l l cal l SAPS and the response won’t be there or SAPS wi l l come late. So i t was one, i t was a chal lenge for them as wel l . In essence there was no support at that t ime, I don’t know about now, from SAPS to patrol us, so i t a lso af fected them as wel l , and i t made them if in terms of cr ime, because if they apprehend suspect A and they take him to the pol ice stat ion the fo l lowing week suspect A wi l l come back and at tack individual ly patro l lers when they are walking and also the issue of t ransport again some of the areas are large in terms of geographic, you wi l l f ind that patro l ler A stays in sect ion A, patro l ler B stays in sect ion B, so when they are done with patro l l ing they have to escort one another, so they spend about two hours going round the area, taking the people, t ransport ing people by foot, so I th ink SAPS need to at least provide t ransport for them, because then gett ing paid is voluntar i ly they are not expect ing st ipend f rom SAPS or community service at least to show or to create that pa rtnership between the community and the pol ice. MR HATHORN: Thanks very much Mr Sal i . NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATHORN COMMISSIONER: Mr Osborn? MR OSBORN: We have nothing madam chair . COMMISSIONER: Okay. Mr Masuku? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MASUKU: Thank you Chair . Mr Sal i would I be correct that i f you were to make recommendat ions to this commission about how pol ic ing in Khayel i tsha can be approved you would suggest that the CPF’s are strengthened r ight? MR SALI : That ’s correct . MR MASUKU: You would suggest that they’re strengthened by being given resources in order to actual ly inf luence how pol ic ing is conducted, r ight? MR SALI : That ’s correct .

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MR MASUKU: Your evidence re lat ing to the patro ls you would not recommend that those patro ls are stopped, a m I correct to say that? MR SALI : That ’s correct , that ’s correct . MR MASUKU: In fact you would recommend that those patro ls in fact are strengthened by being given the necessary resources, r ight? MR SALI : That ’s correct . MR MASUKU: And the involvement of the pol ice in those patro ls would be to give them the necessary support , r ight? MR SALI : That ’s correct . MR MASUKU: Now you said in your paragraph 13 that you ra ised th is issue of resources with the MSC Dan Plato, am I correct? MR SALI : Yes, that ’s correct . MR MASUKU: And you accuse him of having responded arrogant ly to your request for a meeting in which you could ra ise the pl ight of CPF’s, am I correct? MR SALI : That ’s correct . MR MASUKU: Now what do you mean he reacted arrogant ly? MR SALI : He in the sense that cr ime is af fect ing Khayel i tsha so we wrote him a let ter on behalf of the CPF invi t ing him to a meet ing, to come and address th is issue, I tabled the issues that needs to be addressed, perta in ing to patro l lers, the of f ice of the MEC responded saying the MEC is busy with cabinet commitments and i t ended there, so to me that is arrogance, one would th ink that i f Khayel i tsha is a pr ior i ty and you even cal l a summit in Khayel i tsha to address cr ime but when you are cal led you te l l us that you ar e busy with cabinet commitments, that ’s f ine, MEC’s are busy, their d iar ies, they make arrangements, but at least come with an al ternat ive date to show commitment that you want these issues to be addressed in Khayel i tsha. MR MASUKU: I would consider that to be arrogance myself , so I would agree with you, but in your overal l statement that you made at the beginning of your evidence you said that there is a breakdown of relat ions and trust in the community and the pol ice and then you – the example you ci ted as evidence of that is the vigi lante act ivi t ies, you said people would take law into their own hands, because they have lost t rust in the community, but at the same t ime you said these incidents of vigi lante k i l l ings are in fact incidents that occurs spontaneously, r ight? MR SALI : That ’s correct . MR MASUKU: So would I be r ight i f I said to you that the reason why they occur spontaneously is because people are angry with the cr ime, they are angry with the cr ime that – I mean they are angry because they wan t – they are angry with the cr ime that is happening with in their community? MR SALI : That ’s incorrect . People are fed up. MR MASUKU : I ’m saying exact ly what you say. MR SALI : Ja, they are fed up, and we’ve been report ing these issues, they’re not at tended to, criminals are coming back, the best way is let us at tack. MR MASUKU: Okay. MR SALI : So as much as i t is spontaneous but i t ’s the sequence of many previous events that have been happening, that does lead to vigi lant ism. MR MASUKU : But you’ve never seen or witnessed or had an incident where a cr iminal, a cr ime occurred in the community and then a cr iminal was apprehended by the community, was handed over to the pol ice and an unsat isfactory outcome happened in that the cr iminal or the al leged cr imina l

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was brought back to the community and then the community acted by ki l l ing that person, have you? MR SALI : Not that incident. MR MASUKU : Right , so what I ’m saying to you is that the incidents that you refer to as vigi lant k i l l ings are incidents where so mething has happened, a cell phone has been taken away and we’ve heard th is evidence f rom people who has actual ly experienced that , a cel l phone has been taken or robbed a person has been robbed of a cel l phone, they cal l the community, the community come s in, they apprehend the suspect and their main intent ion is to recover that cel l phone, that property, they never just – their evidence was that they didn’ t take the person to the pol ice, not necessari ly because they didn’ t t rust the pol ice but because they wanted the cel l phone immediately. MR SALI : That ’s another incident I wasn’t there, but there are many incidents where community members wi l l apprehend the cel l phone and beat the cr iminal. MR MASUKU : Yes, but I ’m saying to you that your view of vigi la nte ki l l ings your assessment is that vigi lante k i l l ings are a result of a breakdown in t rust so i f you are t rying to f ind out whether the community t rust the pol ice or not you would start wi th the vigi lante k i l l ings, am I correct in that? MR SALI : Can you please . . . ( intervent ion). MR MASUKU: So your evidence is that i f you real ly want to know whether the community t rust the pol ice you have to go and look at the vigi lante k i l l ings, r ight , and the vigi lante k i l l ings wi l l te l l you that the community doesn’t l ike the pol ice, or don’t t rust the pol ice. MR SALI : I t ’s one of the – of many issues, i t te l ls you that there are law enforcers which is of f ic ia ls, you’ve got the just ice systems, and people instead of taking the suspect to the pol ice stat ion they commit cr ime themselves, or beat that suspects, i t te l ls that there is a breakdown of re lat ions between community members and the pol ice. They wi l l rather correct these incidents themselves than taking the person to the pol ice of f ic ia ls, go to court, based on te chnical i t ies the case is withdrawn and the person comes back to the community. MR MASUKU : Yes, yes. No, that ’s correct , but can I then say to you that i f the issue of pol ice t rust and the – sorry i f the issue of pol ice ef fect iveness can be resolved one of the intervent ions that wi l l be required is to strengthen the community organisat ions themselves, empower them in terms of resources, in terms of how part icular ly the CPF’s and in terms of how they can actual ly support the pol ic ing of the communit ies, am I correct? MR SALI : That ’s correct . MR MASUKU: But i t a lso means that the pol ice have to carry themselves with suf f ic ient enthusiasm to do their work, r ight? MR SALI : Yes, and the pol ice of f ic ials as wel l they need more resources. MR MASUKU : Yes that ’s i t . MR SALI : So we need to cover State, the CPF’s and also provide support structures or put th ings in p lace for the pol ice of f ic ia ls as wel l , because I made an example about noise in Centur ian, i t was at tended speedi ly, i t te l ls me that in an af f luent area there are many vehicles, they can even attend to noise, but in Khayel i tsha there’s a robbery, pol ice can’t come in t ime, so for me i t is the pol ice as wel l , SAPS must provide more resources in Khayel i tsha. MR MASUKU: Right . Are you aware of any vigi lante k i l l ing in which the pol ice – where the pol ice did not invest igate, where the pol ice simply d id not invest igate the matter?

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MR SALI : No I ’m not aware of any. MR MASUKU: Right, you were asked by my learned f r iend, Mr Hathorn, whether the pol ice had a problem for deal ing with vig i lante k i l l ings, i f I say to you the answer that the pol ice would give is that when a murder has happened, whether i t ’s by v igi lante k i l l ing or whether i t has happened by other ways, the way that the pol ice see these issues is by simply invest igat ing a cr ime that has occurred, so if i ts murder, then they wi l l invest igate murder, they don’t have a cr ime cal led vigi lante k i l l ing, am I correct to say that there is no cr ime cal led vigi lante k i l l ing? MR SALI : Part ly yes. MR MASUKU: There is a cr ime cal led murder. MR SALI : But for example vigi lante k i l l ing, I make an example about vigi lante ki l l ing, i f i t happens in Makhaza in happens in Makhaza, i t means there’s a threat of vigi lante k i l l ings in Khayel i tsha so you can – i ts murder yes, i t ’s reported as a murder, but you need to t reat i t as a vigi lante k i l l ing as wel l . You can’t just t reat i t as assault , gr ievous bodi ly harm, deal with i t , tackle i t , i t ’s not only for the pol ice, society as wel l , the community as wel l . MR MASUKU: So the context of vigi lante where there’s a k i l l ing how would you propose a unique approach i t be adopted by the police in order to show that they are sensi t ive to the fact that i t is a vigi lante k i l l ing, what invest igat ion, do you know any invest igat ive methods or any pol icy approaches that could be taken, I ’m just explor ing that with you for just in case you have any ideas on i t . MR SALI : No I haven’t done a study on that, but I bel ieve that SAPS is capacitated enough, i f we were to do a study on that as to how shal l we deal . . . ( intervent ion). MR MASUKU: You say SAPS deal with i t as a k i l l ing? They deal with i t as murder. You say that is not good enough? MR SALI : No, I ’m saying, you are asking i f I know any mechanisms of what, I ’m saying I haven’t done th is study on how to tackle vig i lante k i l l ings. I ’m saying that SAPS should take i t as a pr ior i ty, have studies, even SAPS I assume that i t must have a research inst i tute or a uni t to do studies in as how to tackle th is or ask the quest ion why is i t happening in Khayel i tsha and not happening in . . . ( intervent ion). MR MASUKU : I can assure you i t ’s not just Khayel i tsha where there are vigi lante k i l l ings, there are many others, but just two last quest ions madam chair . The f i rst one real ly re lates to your c omment on the – your comment that service del ivery cr ipples the capacity of the pol ice and we agree with that assessment in a way i t imposes a lot of pressure on the pol ice, and i t p laces them between the community, exact ly the example you gave, where the community says when i t ’s service del ivery protests you respond quickly, but when i t ’s a cr ime where someone has been robbed you respond slowly. We accept that that creates a percept ion amongst the community that perhaps the pol ice are not responding to com munity needs as ef f ic ient ly as they do when they are t rying to protect bad service del ivery in as far as sanitat ion for example is concerned. I t ’s your conclusion that intr igues me, which I th ink is a very – you put i t very wel l , that ’s what I ’m saying in your statement, the conclusion that you actual ly concluded a statement with and i t ’s a conclusion we agree with, and i t ’s a conclusion hopeful ly that enables us to conceptual ise a very good way in which the pol ice of f ic ia ls can be assisted in doing their work. You say the biggest cr iminals in Khayel i tsha are poverty and under -development and I th ink

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i ts something that we completely agree with, and that ’s real ly a l l that I can put to the witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MASUKU COMMISSIONER: Thank you Mr Masuku. MR OSBORN : Madam chair , I ’m sorry, may I inter ject , Mr Masuku did ra ise one issue concerning the MEC, could we have the opportuni ty to ask a couple of quest ions of th is witness in c lar i f icat ion of the way that the MEC al legedly responded to a request for assistance? COMMISSIONER : I mean th is was in the statement Mr Osborn, i t ’s not as i f i t ’s new informat ion that ’s been put before us, i t was actual ly stated in the statement as I recal l the MEC acted arrogant ly, I don’t know that the quest ioning has taken i t any further than that . I mean what is the quest ion you would want to put? MR OSBORN: Wel l whether the al leged default of the MEC for example was ra ised by the witness at the Khayeli tsha Safety Summit about which we have heard. We did put in some quest ions, we did not ify that we had a couple of quest ions of th is witness. COMMISSIONER: And I d id of fer you an opportuni ty and you at that moment said you had no quest ions. MR OSBORN: We had hoped not to take up the t ime of the commission, because th is wasn’t ra ised by the witness in his d irect , s ince i t was ra ised by SAPS in i ts cross-examinat ion we thought i t was appropriate that . . .( intervent ion). COMMISSIONER : You’re request ing for an opportuni ty now to put quest ions 2.1 and 2.2 of your quest ions , is that what you’re asking for? MR OSBORN : That’s precisely r ight madam chair . COMMISSIONER: Okay wel l you may put those two quest ions, 2.1 and 2.2. MR OSBORN: Advocate Adhikar i wi l l do so. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS ADHIKARI : Morning Mr Sal i . Mr Sal i d id you ra ise the issues that you ra ised in the let ter with the MEC at the Khayel i tsha Safety Summit? MR SALI: The Khayel i tsha Safety Summit was an open forum, i t was not a one on one engagement with the MEC, so everyone was there, and as committee members we were clustered in d if ferent groups to d iscuss cr ime related matters, so I th ink i t wi l l be fool ish of me as secretary of CBF to go to that group that I don’t know and say that the MEC did not respond to our request. MS ADHIKARI : No, that ’s not my quest ion, my quest ion is you had a concern in respect to support being given to patro l lers, and that was the issue that you wanted to ra ise with the MEC? MR SALI : Yes. MS ADHIKARI : Was that issue in respect of the need for support to patro l lers ra ised at the Khayel i tsha Safety Summit? MR SALI : Yes i t was ra ised. MS ADHIKARI : Okay, thank you. Did you ra ise that? MR SALI : Yes I ra ised i t , and other members as wel l . As I said that there was no direct engagement with the MEC. Af ter the premier and the MEC del ivered speeches we were clusters as people who were in that ward, in d if ferent groups, to d iscuss cr ime related matters, so we were ra is ing issues and also the issue of patro l lers. MS ADHIKARI : So then you had an opportuni ty to ra ise i t at least in the Khayel i tsha Safety Summit . Did you then fo l low that up with a let ter to the

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MEC? MR SALI : Come again? MS ADHIKARI : Did you fo l low that engagement at the Khayel i tsha Safety Summit d id you fo l low that up with a let ter to the MEC? MR SALI: No in my view you cannot – in my view you can’t expect – i t was an open forum, so people were ra is ing issues, so even the MEC when he reached the solut ions, he wi l l see the issues that we ra ised in Khayel i tsha, i t is there. To me i t was more of a pol i t ical forum, speeche s, and i t ends there, so we wanted a direct contact with the MEC to say that Harare there are issues in Harare, even when the commissioner he ment ioned Harare that there is a lot of cr ime happening, under the Harare Pol ice Precinct , so as the CBF for Harar e was saying the MEC here we are t rying to meet you halfway, th is is the best way how we wi l l deal with cr ime. MS ADHIKARI : Mr Sal i my quest ion was sl ight ly d i f ferent , I understand that you ra ised i t at the summit, and there was an opportuni ty to ra ise th e issues around patro l lers with the summit , my quest ion is s l ight ly d i f ferent , af ter the summit was that when you then wrote a let ter to the MEC to t ry and fo l low up on th is specif ic issue? MR SALI : No, i t was before the Summit . MS ADHIKARI : Okay, thank you Mr Sal i . NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS ADHIKARI COMMISSIONER: Mr Masuku. MR MASUKU: I beg your indulgence madam chair . COMMISSIONER: To ask what quest ion? MR MASUKU: I t is a quest ion that I should have asked when I had the f loor, and i t re lates to the meet ings that the witness test i f ied that the CPF’s and the SAPS used to have monthly meet ings and the only quest ion I real ly wanted to ask is whether the issue of vigi lante k i l l ings was speci f ical ly d iscussed in those meet ings and whether they were advised by the pol ice what the proper approach should be. COMMISSIONER: You may put that quest ion. MR MASUKU: Thank you madam chair . Mr Sal i the quest ion I real ly wanted to ask you is about your evidence re lat ing to the meet ings that you say you held with the SAPS there as the secretary of the CPF – sorry that you held with the SAPS, in those meet ings did you discuss th is vigi lante k i l l ings, and if you did could you te l ls us what d iscussions, what the at t i tude of the pol ice was towards that k ind of a d iscussion? MR SALI : We never d iscussed them. MR MASUKU : Thank you, that ’s real ly a l l . COMMISSIONER: Thanks Mr Masuku. Mr Sidaki any re -examinat ion? MR SIDAKI : I have nothing madam chair . COMMISSIONER: We wi l l take the issue of the video under advisement, advocate Pikol i and I wi l l d iscuss i t in the lunch adjournment. Advocate Pikol i? MR PIKOLI : Just a very short one Mr Sal i , paragraph 12 of your statement you are lament ing their poor resources, now I would l ike to f ind out whether you have ra ised the quest ion of poor resources with the pol ice and if you have ra ised i t what has been the response? MR SALI : As I ment ioned earl ier on is that we did ra ise the issues wi th the act ing stat ion commissioners, and they could not commit themselves hence I said earl ier on that in my view i t was a lack of leadership and indecis iveness on

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that part , we did ra ise those issues because every t ime we meet them we te l l them that as the community members we would l ike to assist you but we can’t assist you but we can’t assist you becau se we are unemployed and you are not resourced. So we did ra ise those issues with them, so we could not get assistance form SAPS. COMMISSIONER: I have one quest ion Mr Sal i and that is whether you th ink that the Harare CPF when you were associated with i t was broadly representat ive of the greater Harare community which of course as you know covers a l l the way over to Makhaza and Endlovin i and was i t broadly representat ive the whole community? MR SALI : Yes i t was broadly representat ive. COMMISSIONER: And how would you in what – why do you say that , what was i t about the way i t was const i tuted that made i t broadly representat ive, was there somebody f rom every area that was in i t? MR SALI : In Harare pol ice precinct there are four sectors, so there were representat ives form sector 1, sector 2, sector 3 and sector 4, in the CPF, they were there. COMMISSIONER: And were there a reasonably even proport ion of men and women?” MR SALI : 90% was women. COMMISSIONER: Oh, not that broadly representat ive then presumably. MR SALI : Not a l l represented, fa ir ly represented. COMMISSIONER: Okay, and in re lat ion to organisat ions that operate in the broader Harare area, were there representat ives f rom a range of d if ferent c ivic organisat ions? MR SALI : Yes that ’s correct , because as – wi th the CPF AGM there CPF, the one who organised the AGM, they invi te their af f i l ia tes, meaning that your church structures, youth organisat ions, stokvels, s i lver gloves, pol i t ical organisat ions, your NGO’s and so forth, so they const itute CPF AGM, so when the elect ions people are elected, people are on the f loor, so each structure wi l l br ing two delegates for example, CPF wi l l st ipulate. COMMISSIONER: How many members were there of the CPF al l together? MR SALI : CPF members? COMMISSIONER: How many? MR SALI : I ’m not sure but . . . ( intervent ion). COMMISSIONER : I mean roughly, you don’t have to . . . ( intervent ion). MR SALI : I th ink around 15. COMMISSIONER: Around 15. MR SALI : 13 to 15 ja. COMMISSIONER: I a lso need to say that we have cal led for the meetings of CPF’s across Khayel i tsha, the three main CPF’s who are re lated to the pol ice stat ion and we do seem to have a dist inct lack of minutes for CPF meetings in Harare in part icular, there seem to have been re lat ively few minuted meet ings. MR SALI : Okay. COMMISSIONER: Any comment on that? You were only there for four months in th is period, but just your thoughts in response to why that might be? MR SALI : When we came there was nothing f rom the previous CPF, nothing on records. Nothing at a l l yes, so we were t ry ing sort of provis ional is ing CPF that is our mission, but unfortunately I lef t so I don’t know what other members did moving forward.

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COMMISSIONER: I would also l ike your view on the fact that basical ly stat ion commanders tend to chair the CPF meet ings and in fact one of the th ings we are seeing is that i f there is a problem with the stat ion commander, as you have described, that in fact CPF meet ings ei ther don’t happen as easi ly or there seems to be a problem. In your view is i t appropriate for a stat ion commander to chair a CPF meet ing? MR SALI: No, not where I was seated, because in our meet ings a CPF chairperson would chair the meet ings, not the stat ion commander. COMMISSIONER: And who convened the meet ings? MR SALI : The chairperson, yes the chairperson wi l l convene the meet ing, but we had standing meet ings every fortnight , every Monday fortn ight ly we wi l l meet as the CPF but there wi l l be those adjourned meet ings, the secretary wi l l communicate with other members and so forth. But we ne ver there was never a meet ing where a stat ion commander was chair ing, because that wi l l not give CPF a space to breathe, or to ra ise issues. COMMISSIONER: And you have spoken about the resource problem and one of the issues is where you meet, where was the Harare CPF meet ing? MR SALI : At Harare pol ice stat ion. COMMISSIONER: Did you have a dedicated of f ice at the pol ice stat ion with a f i l ing cabinet and resources in i t? MR SALI : There was none, there was no of f ice, I was operat ing at my own place in Makhaza. COMMISSIONER: And did you ask for that? MR SALI : We asked for that . COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. MR SALI : Yes, my pleasure. MR PIKOLI : And Mr Sal i i t would seem that you don’t have the quest ion of having ra ised these problems, because when you responded to my earl ier quest ion actual ly i t was a reference to point 5 of your statement, the quest ion of the low morale, the quest ion of lack of leadership, and the re luctance of the act ing stat ion commanders to act . MR SALI : Yes. MR PIKOLI: You ra ised the quest ion of resources twice in paragraph 6 as wel l as paragraph 12, but there’s no indicat ion that you had ra ised i t wi th the pol ice off ic ia ls? MR SALI : Now my conclusion that there was a lack of leadership i t was based on my engagement with the stat ion commissioners, so i t was not just looking at them saying there’s no capacity or they are not provid ing leadership, we engaged them on many occasions, and there was no clear wi l l ingness to assist , hence I came to the conclusion that they were lackin g in leadership. COMMISSIONER: There is one further quest ion and that is th is issue of patro l lers, I understand that you have suggested that they should – the system should cont inue, but one of the th ings that does appear both f rom your own test imony where the issue of complaints against patro l lers were something that was raised with the CPF, a lso gels with at least one set of minutes we’ve received which suggests that community members have threatened to at tack patro l lers and therefore there have been an a greement that the patro l lers would not vis i t hotspot areas, can you shed any l ight on that? MR SALI : Come again? COMMISSIONER : One set of minutes, I th ink i t ’s af ter your t ime, but suggested

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that th is conf l ict between the community and patro l lers had rows at the meet ing such that the CPF decided that patro l lers should not go to hotspot areas without the SAPS present in order to conf l ict between patro l lers and the community. MR SALI : So you mean relat ions between the community and the patro l lers? COMMISSIONER: Ja. MR SALI : Ja, in some instances yes, because some patro l lers const i tut ional ly the CPF’s that are supposed to coordinate the patro l lers, but in other communit ies where the CPF’s is not vis ib le enough community members wi l l assemble themselves and form a patro l group, so they wi l l deal with cr ime in a manner which they deem f i t . So that ’s where there the discord between them and the community starts, in those instances. I a lso made an example about where I was staying in Makhaza where the patro l group of o ld men were coming in on shif ts, so any person who is walking on the streets f rom ten pm onwards

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wi l l be at tacked, physical ly. I t was not an issue of escort , and remember they also used to go l ike door to door, i f af ter ten your l ights are on they wi l l go inside there and beat you say switch of f the l ights, we are working here and stuf f l ike that , so that created – ja a f r ict ion between the community members and the patro l lers, and some members were armed, so they would threaten to shoot patro l lers and so forth. COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. I t is now f ive past one, we wi l l have to adjourn now for a lunch adjournmen t and Mr Loonat we wi l l take your evidence immediately af ter lunch, so we wi l l reconvene at two o’c lock.