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Historical Papers – Wits University Recce Group A3079/B.13

CLIENT : University of the Witwatersrand – Historical Papers SUBJECT : Recce Group 09/2005 IDENTIFICATION : Tape 13 CONTACT PERSON : Michele Pickover DATE : 28 November 2008

Please note:

1. When typist is unsure of names, speakers will be identified by title. 2. Transcriptions are typed verbatim, and typist, when unsure of jargon,

industry terms or individual’s names, will type phonetic spelling followed by (unsure)


INTERVIEWER: Its September 24th and we are in Pretoria and I am doing an

interview with some of the members of the Recce Group from operation Tudor

[inaudible] …which took place in Savate [inaudible] I think we will start by

everyone doing an introduction and just tell me briefly…just give me your name

and your background, when and how you joined 32 Battalion.

MIKE KILEY: Right I am going to start, my name is Mike Kiley, it would have

been October 1978 that Gert Nel came down to 32…to infantry school and …I

don’t know about you guys but I think I jippo’d it, I think they were going to have a

lecture on some guided missile and I think half of infantry school went down to

the parade ground to get away from the lectures and at the parade ground they

talked about 32 Battalion and I think half again you could still stay out of lectures

and most of…I think half the parade ground again went to listen to more about

32…and I think that’s when you were saying Twelve C spoke about starting a

Recce Group and doing bats…part of the deal was if you joined the Recce group

you could do bats…certainly for myself having a brother in Parrabats this was

like a double whammy, I could do Parrabats and join the Recce group and 32, I

don’t know about you guys but we didn’t really, I don’t think much was known

about 32 Battalion in those days, and then Gert Nel did interviews with all of us

and that’s how we were…eventually hand picked, not hand picked but we

certainly did individuals interviews if memory serves…and then you were called

in. I remember my Corporal Pretorius at infantry school said I wasn’t allowed to

go…and Gert Nel said he would make the judge around me and I could go…so I

was fairly pleased to have gone. Yes, that’s how it started, so it was very much


what you were saying Angela, like an incidental, not specifically saying I am

choosing that…so it was a double whammy I think for most of us, Recce

Group…I think we all had it in us, we wanted to do something so it was Recce

group and Bats and then we landed at Rundu as Grobbie said…first of

November 1978 and we went straight to Buffalo…

MALE SPEAKER: No we attested that the next day, 2nd November we all

attested a short service…

MIKE KILEY: For the extra year and then we went to Buffalo and we did the

…soon after that we did selection …there were 30 white guys who started and 20

that made it.

MALE SPEAKER: I don’t know how many started off…

MIKE KILEY: It wasn’t much more, but 20 of us …they wanted 20 and we were

of the 20 that finished the selection.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: I remember that there were some guys who came

through the platoons and were in the selections with us…and Gawie did selection

with us…

MIKE KILEY: Gert van der Merwe…

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Yes a couple of guys and they decided to continue with

the platoons and that’s why [inaudible] but the guy that came from infantry school

…we wanted to go and Recce him…

MIKE KILEY: Yes we certainly were going to that.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: And as our selection finished we went straight onto

[inaudible] and the platoon guys went back to the platoon for whatever reasons.


MALE SPEAKER: Ek wil net weer sê ek bliksem julle.

MIKE KILEY: I think that’s it. From the early days how we started up.

We…Gert gaan jy praat of gaan ek praat?

GERT: Nee praat maar.

OPPIES: Okay Oppies, we did an interview before so you should have my

particulars…I joined because I was in trouble in infantry school….so I just wanted

to get out of there …I was in flying squad, full kit like hierdie rooi doilie goed wat

ons altyd gehad het…I was running all the time with full kit with rocks in my bags

and all that.

INTERVIEWER: Why?

OPPIES: Because is caused shit, but anyway my apologies for the

language…but, so I wanted to get away from there and when they called us to

the parade ground I thought they were going to cashier me, or take me to DB

when we were all called to the parade ground that afternoon. There was going to

be made an example out of me…how they chuck somebody out of the army into

jail or something like that. So then when I heard there was this opportunity to go

somewhere, I didn’t know about 32 Battalion or nothing, that was the first time in

my life that I heard about it and I decided to join, because I wanted to go to

Recce even before when we started as a troop with basics and I went to infantry

school to prepare myself better to be able to go there, and there was this

opportunity…not only bats or whatever, you could go to the Recce’s as well …go

and do the selection, so that was a further step closer to the Recces and I was

gone and I was out of trouble at least.


MIKE KILEY: Not for long.

INTERVIEWER: Out of the frying pan into the fire.

OPPIES: Yes but I soon realised when we started doing the training we started

off with the initial selection…after the first day three out of the four of my group

…we were two left…Frans and I were there, Gert Greeff, his team left so Gert

joined us so the three of us finished as a stick there….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: You are joking, after day one?

OPPIES: After day one…actually day two when we came back to the border,

that morning there the people just left and you were left, the only one from your

group and you joined Frans, Gert and I.

GERT: I think it was the second or third day that the guy…I think his name was

also Oppies, his name was Opperman….

OPPIES: No it was Roelie Brits…and that day, the Sunday we had to cross the

river. Third day was when you and Frank and I went past the crocodile down the

river, when he came upstream and they shot at them at the bottom, that crocodile

came up and the three of us were floating downstream past it, and the next day,

it was the morning of the fourth day …when Pep and them came to see us off for

the day, and they said Roelie Brits was caught that night.

GERT: Ek het gedink [cross talking]

OPPIES: They were killed in September when we were up there with infantry

school…Opperman was killed,

GERT: Also by a croc?

OPPIES: No he was killed in action at Enombi on the way up to an ambush


there that had an effect on me many years later when we took him, some

companies or whatever.

GERT: Whose funeral did we attend in Mossel Bay…

OPPIES: Okay, but that’s how I got there by just wanting to get away from

infantry school.

PETER LIPMANN: Theo Lipmann, I was initially called up to the megs, and I

decided I didn’t want to become a tampax dippie…so then I volunteered for

Parrabats…and they came around and did a little selection and that and went out

to bats, so I did my basics with bats and then on PT course I got a hernia in my

stomach muscles and so I couldn’t carry on with the course and then I heard via

the lines about 32 and what a great organisation it was and I decided to volunteer

for 32 and that’s what I did and I arrived at 32 and Big Daddy said to me what do

you want to do here, and I said I want to fight….so he said he had never had that

request before but he would see what he can do, and a couple of days later

that’s after off loading two magillis loads of shit for the PF’s …and came back to

me and said okay I must go and do the basics with Bravo Company again. So I

went and did basics again with bravo …slept with the troops, ate and drank with

the troops, was treated like a black and after that we did a selection and went to

the Recce group and then I joined Mike and Oppies and all of the guys and

carried on from there.

MIKE KILEY: Did you join us as a launcher?

PETER LIPMANN: Yes I joined as a launcher…no troop.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: You were a Lance Corporal when you came down?


PETER LIPMANN: I was a Lance Corporal in the army…

MALE SPEAKER: Peter what time was that…where in the year because I can’t

remember …

PETER LIPMANN: I battle to recall that.

MALE SPEAKER: Middle of the year or….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Maybe sometime in 1979 Peter.

PETER LIPMANN: Yes in 1979 sometime.

MIKE KILEY: We got there at the end of 1979 and you only joined us after

that…[cross talking.

PETER LIPMANN: You guys were the first and we did the second.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Ours was the real selection…

MIKE KILEY: The second selection was only at the end of that year.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Yes they walked about 10 kilometres so they could get

fit.

INTERVIEWER: Listen…the 32 Recce selection differed from normal Recce

selection, more difficult.

MIKE KILEY: More difficult yes.

INTERVIEWER: Silly question, they are always slightly different.

MIKE KILEY: But it was a very unique on site what they could do with us…they

had to walk about 30 – 50 odd kilometres a day without food.

PETER LIPMANN: We didn’t get food, we had a lekker chow that one time with

the bread with diesel and the stew…that was a nice chow.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: I think we did, as long as we did the 70 kilometre


stretch…

MIKE KILEY: The first night on our way up to the first sleep over point Frank

and I and the other two we got a puffadder snake and we braai’d it there that

night…

PETER LIPMANN: With Tony Buren…

MIKE KILEY: No it was not with Tony…it could have been.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: I remember us rocking up with RV point and they were

slitting the snake open, it has 17 babies in it…

MIKE KILEY: Yes we all got a little piece, we shared it…you even like headed

towards Dominee those days, and you share with the others. Only 50 kilometres,

I did that in the morning….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: How long was the selection, two weeks?

MIKE KILEY: But did you also walk to Amani….and to Omega?

MALE SPEAKER: Yes…

KEVIN FITZGERALD: No we didn’t go to Omega, we did the selection at

Buffalo…[cross talking] and water poled back, I [cross talking]

PETER LIPMANN: The Gamma Feinstra…speaking like a Zulu….

OPPIES: Okay there are still some that need to ….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Come Gert, don’t be shy….

GERT KOTZE: Gert Kotze, I have been in Delta company with infantry school

in 1987 …Gert Nel Oudtshoorn.

OPPIES: You mean 1978? [inaudible]

GERT KOTZE: Bottom line is because I was immediately…because I like to


fight, don’t want to talk…I am not a lover I am a fighter…I tend when I go to 32

and I decided to join up with it…that’s all. And I blew off the Blue Bull supporter.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Tell me about the souties that were up there with you in

the Recce group, didn’t they drive you bossies?

GERT KOTZE: I tried to convince them to speak the A-programme language

but f….it didn’t help. They had to speak that horrible language [cross talking]…

DIRK LOUBSER: My name is Dirk Loubser, I am originally from Namaqualand

so that’s why I got called Daisy…and also I was recruited with the 1978 group

and I remember we landed on the Oudtshoorn parade ground and that day there

was also the guys from the 31 battalion…and he …

INTERVIEWER: Who was recruiting for 31, was it Delville Lindford?

DIRK LOUBSER: I couldn’t remember his name but I couldn’t remember the

name of Gert, but I remember both of them were there, and they got a chance

just to say that they were coming here to recruit people for the two battalions and

I was also like Oppies …just looking to get out of infantry school, so I remember

half the parade ground left to left hand side of the parade ground and then they

had an opportunity just to tell us in short what we are going to do there and then

half of that, or three quarters of that group left again back to the normal parade

grounds and then we got in the SOS selection and we went there, and what I

remember except for all the walking of the first selection process was the fact

that we had to go over the river twice…and we went over the river just the day

after or two days after that Rudi got caught by the crocodile.

OPPIES: That was the same night, the last time…we crossed three times, first


day, that night we came back and the third morning there where the Pontoon

used to be that’s where we were supposed to cross and Frank and Gert and I got

lost terribly right up…five or six kilometres up river …I did the mistake on the map

reading.

DIRK LOUBSER: I know the second time we got to the waters…we used what

is the Owambo population….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Didn’t we bend Oppies’ rifle [inaudible] that

night…remember you tried to shoot with your rifle, you tried to shoot and the

barrel was skew and you couldn’t understand what….

DIRK LOUBSER: Pity it didn’t explode when he shot with it.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Diddies and Kloppies was there as well….they were

making us run [cross talking] and now we are shooting our R1’s off…I am sure it

was your R1 man, you used it to try and break the lot on the [inaudible] and he

kept on shooting miss and when he held up the thing, he checked that the barrel

was skew…whets wrong with this thing…I said we got it from the stores

staff….meanwhile….

DIRK LOUBSER: Yes, that was the way that I joined, I couldn’t actually

remember how we got split into the groups and platoons and the guys in the

Recce …I don’t know how we got selected for the Reconnaissance Group but

any case from there on.

PETER LIPMANN: We volunteered from the beginning and we specifically you

guys go to platoons and you guys go to ….

MIKE KILEY: Yes but we had to pass the selection before...we went up saying


we want to join [cross talking] you guys were there and you went to selection and

you carried on from there.

DIRK LOUBSER: I couldn’t remember that but in any case I joined the

Reconnaissance Group and I was with Oppies in a team…

KEVIN FITZGERALD: And life has never been the same…

DIRK LOUBSER: Yes and all the [inaudible] that [cross talking]

KEVIN FITZGERALD: My name is Kevin Fitzgerald and I am commonly known

as Fritzy to most of my military mates …Angela has already interviewed me on a

previous occasion so much of my biographical data will be with her, and for

purposes of this interview I was also with, as most of us predominantly from the

infantry school where Gert Nell and C1 commander came down to do recruiting

drive…now I had heard quite coincidentally during my school matric year that the

stepson of our Principal by the name of Hugo Ackerman…his stepson went by

the name of Kevin Beck…Kevin was in one Recce at the time and he gave our

matric group a talk on his career in the military and the unit he was in and so on,

and he mentioned in that talk that the Recce guys often did operations with a unit

called 32 which was staff with mainly black Angolans and so forth and his opinion

of this unit was that the unit saw the most fighting in the SADF…as soon as I

heard that I thought I must get myself picked, and like all of us here I went

through day to day…infantry school hoping like hell that the end would come

sooner rather than later, because I think for most of us it was a incredible

diminishing experience and as with Oppies I think most of us there were running

against the grain in trouble most of the time, we were a bit individualistic with the


system and when 32 came along, oh boy this was it for most of us, and a day

came when Gert Nel rocked up and 32 came into my consciousness again, that’s

what Kevin Beck told me about…so that was me gone, and I had a couple of

school friends in C2 with me, one of them was in Foxtrot, Frankie and another

chap Lance Mostert was in the platoon next door to mine in Alpha

Company…and I signalled to both of them to come across and most of them

gave me a quick firm shake of the head…we are not interested thank you very

much, so I hung around there by myself and then I went for the interview with Nel

and I made it quite clear to him that I really wasn’t interested in canon fodder, I

wanted to go into the Recce group etc, and from there I landed up mainly with

you guys and I had a hell of a nice time in the Recce group …that’s the reason

why we are sitting here today.

THABO MAREE: My name is Thabo Maree, I also joined the 78 group, the end

of 78 and I also didn’t know anything about 32 Battalion until then…and then that

started the most interesting time of my life.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: And he is a rep[inaudible] in the Free State…are you

happy now.

THABO MAREE: It’s okay…

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Is [inaudible] office still okay with you?

THABO MAREE: I managed to co-squash a couple of them ….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Okay, that’s using initiative hey…

MIKE KILEY: I think the group to maybe just get the record straight as well…we

started off doing training with the Recce’s…Diddies and Kloppies came down


and taught us minor tactics and…..

INTERVIEWER: That was Andre Diedericks.

MIKE KILEY: Andre Diedericks and Stefan Kloppers…

MALE SPEAKER: en dan Samajooor de Beer….

MIKE KILEY: Yes but they came afterwards….[cross talking]

OPPIES: At that stage I realised I will never be a Recce because I wanted to be

a dominee by then and I won’t make it, I will get killed there …if you want to go to

the Recce’s that must be your career and it was not my career choice, so I

decided I would finish up there at 32 and then go and study.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: And your conversion period was pretty quick.

OPPIES: No, that was before me ….

INTERVIEWER: How old were you all at this time, seventeen or eighteen…

OPPIES: Eighteen going on nineteen.

INTERVIEWER: And you all pretty much accepted that you were going to the

military, you had done your National Service, you sent to infantry….

OPPIES: That was part of National Service…yes.

DIRK LOUBSER: Dit is verplig…ek meen…

PETER LIPMANN: We were called up to do our National Service.

DIRK LOUBSER: And we were the first group that the National Service was

announced to be two years…1977 / 1978.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Okay, just to put the record straight here, in 1977 the

intake was originally a one year intake…towards the end of the year they said

those of you who are not registered for a tertiary education institution will remain


on to do two years, like Kevin Caiton did…the guys who hadn’t registered in time

for university were registered and then rejected found themselves having to do

an additional second year. But the 1978 group were the first group that did two

years from the outset …we then had to do two years National Service stint and

you ran through it…but what happened with us was that Oppies quite rightly said

this was a career kind of situation where they put a heck of a lot of training and

money and so forth, we also had to sign up short service…that was [inaudible]

condition by the..[interjected]

DIRK LOUBSER: We were doing three years, not two.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Yes so short service was a contract extending your

military service by a year, now by that stage I was already permanent force…so I

went up as a Permanent Force member …but predominantly the guys in the

National Service had signed on for an additional year. Peter’s situation was a bit

different, you stayed on in National Service, and you didn’t sign a short term….

PETER LIPMANN: No I came back to sign on and it was my 21st birthday and I

didn’t end up going back, that was just after Willem got shot.

DIRK LOUBSER: Yes there were people who were signing short service after

the two years of their National Service and they were signing up for another

year…we signed up after the first year…after the first year we signed up for the

short service.

PETER LIPMANN: Do you guys remember that there was a mistake at the end,

do you remember that, the short term guys and that happened to most of the

short term guys…we signed up for one extra year and we actually signed up for


two, do you remember that, and I think …

DIRK LOUBSER: Yes because we did two years short service …one year

National Service and then the second year National Service coincided with the

first year.

PETER LIPMANN: Yes, and that was a mistake, when we left in the December

and suddenly we started getting phone calls to say that you have still got 12

months, I don’t know if you guys got that, I got a call to say you still have 12

months…you need to come back, but I didn’t go.

INTERVIEWER: What did you know about Angola at this stage in your life?

PETER LIPMANN: Nothing….

DIRK LOUBSER: Most of the infantry school troops were in August and

September …Thabo jy moet my help…I think it was August and September, we

were there for a certain period on the border…

MALE SPEAKER: Delta group didn’t go because they were a supporter

group….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Normally we used to do school rotation…a school used

to go up for about two months or something.

DIRK LOUBSER: By that time that we were up there we didn’t …Thabo we

didn’t really …they were just chasing us around there and …

INTERVIEWER: So did the …so you knew who FAPLA were…did you know

anything about UNITA at this stage or the FNLA?

MALE SPEAKER: Nothing.

PETER LIPMANN: You said it earlier, a lot of it was about adventure and


certainly for me a lot of it was we were going to earn R1500 with danger pay and

everything, its also saying R27 after haircut money and all that crap was taken off

at infantry school…all of a sudden you are going to earn R1500 or R800 it was a

lot of money, so it was also a motivation for me personally, it was the money and

adventure…the fact that we were going to Angola was an incidental for me.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: The fact that you were going to kill people that was it.

PETER LIPMANN: I didn’t want to say that in front of you, because I know you

are sensitive…..especial about people.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: [inaudible] historical records [inaudible]

INTERVIEWER: You had at some stage heard that 32 Battalion was

composed largely of black Angolans …who had been recruited out of the FNLA

and….

OPPIES: I heard it when I got up there…I never knew before.

DIRK LOUBSER: I think Gert just briefly told us what is the battalion and what

they are doing, and as I said in my introduction that’s why a lot of the people left

up there, went there to hear what Gert is telling, and they also went back after he

explained what 32 Battalion is doing.

INTERVIEWER: So he must have told you something about operation

Savanah…because I think at the stage that you guys were coming in I think 32

Battalion was sort of regrouping themselves up to Operation Savanah…and

Colonel Breytenbach had left.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Angela as I said to you initially we had a lot of

Portuguese and a fellow Angolan came to Potch Boys and through them I had


become aware of the scenario that had developed in Angola and Mozambique

and so forth, so I had a bit of knowledge of what was happening up country and

when we arrived at 32 I think the leadership in 32 was about tenuous at the

time…with the departure of Breytenbach…Nel coming on board.

DIRK LOUBSER: Nel was there already the second year.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Yes, with Nel coming on board I don’t think quite

grasped the gorilla warfare mentality that Breytenbach had and expect these

soldiers to have an exercise and remember we were sitting around the fire one

night at Big Daddy and Big Daddy said to us we still had to move off Buffalo to

Amoni because there were other guys who were still doing their survival training

and he said to us the biggest favour that you guys can do yourself, is to think like

SWAPO and Breytenbach and these people did that naturally, and when you

came out of a more formal military thing where your background was very

conventional, 32 was a pucker genuine gorilla unit.

OPPIES: From the infantry school we realised that we didn’t know anything

about warfare, bush war….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: And here we were suddenly amongst these FNLA guys

that had been fighting ever since they were fourteen or fifteen years old…these

guys had more battles behind them than we had had hot meals, and that’s why I

am not exaggerating, it’s a fact of life.

INTERVIEWER: Was this a bit intimidating for you, what was your first

impression of the Black Angolan troops? What were your expectations?

THABO MAREE: I didn’t know what to expect, but when we drove up to Buffalo


I remember these guys, these mean looking black guys came out…there was

this boom at the entrance to Buffalo…and they came out with their

rifles…swinging them up to us and my first impression was this mean black

guy…and what I know and feel about the war and I sort of anticipated what they

knew about the war…felt inferior in that sense to their experiences.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: People sort of more or less started that way …these

guys had a lot of battle hardened experiences…and we were coming there and…

MIKE KILEY: Yes but I think it didn’t last for long…we realised quickly that even

with the experience …call it wind gat or whatever, but it didn’t take us a hell of a

long time and we were better than them with most things in the book….with

tracking, bush craft…fighting, carrying, walking everything.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: The leadership skills we brought with us as well.

MIKE KILEY: And that was within a month tops…initially it was…when you get

to the bush with these guys you think gee these guys are mean and …okay they

are not that whatever, we just ….

PETER LIPMANN: We basically set an example for them. We actually

had…they had the bush knowledge and in a week or two and to me it was

literally …maybe I am exaggerating but certainly it wasn’t a month and we

worked better than them.

DIRK LOUBSCHER: Yes but we did minor tactics, we did the Bud Woskins

and Spoorsny with Dewalt De Beer.

PETER LIPMANN: Bottom line they did the course we had the experience.

THEO LIPMANN: We wanted to be good at what we were doing.


KEVIN FITZGERALD: We brought that critical leadership capacity…which I

think most of the troops didn’t have, if you see how…they needed it and we went

in there as novices and the fighting platform, but really carried the leadership

platform to level…they couldn’t really achieve amongst themselves….and very

shortly after arriving there, we had been recruiting these guys down, these guys

might be mean and nasty and true grass war veterans, but we are not far behind

them, and in a short period of catch up and by mid year of our first year there, by

the June of that year we were pretty on par with their skills…in tracking bush

craft, the works.

INTERVIEWER: Did you at any stage feel there was a testing or sussing you

out or, can you remember any incidents where you felt like these guys are really

putting me over the coals to kind of test me out there…

MALE SPEAKER: Well I certainly did, I was basically the only white guy in the

platoon…I was initially by myself and I was certainly an example…they always

said can this whitie do it or cant it…and if I came through there then I was

accepted…slowly but surely and then I became part of them.

RESPONDENT: I had a troop, he was a Lance Corporal, Costa…geel Costa

and he challenged me by running and all that, but eventually I would, he was

tall…probably my length maybe a bit more. He was a big guy and a youngster

still, younger than we were…at that stage and when we would run up the air strip

and back …I would just keep up with him and he lost eventually because the last

five yards I would push it and then I would leave him behind and eventually I

showed him that he was still behind me…but that was a challenge.


KEVIN FITZGERALD: But I think the typical thing of the African pride

there…they had their pride and they have to see who is up to the muster.

RESPONDENT: You had to prove yourself that was it. We were superior to

them, bottom line, whether it’s politically correct or incorrect it doesn’t matter to

me, they were yellow, the mulato’s were black, done deal we were better than

them.

INTERVIEWER: This is the attitude that you had, that you just.

RESPONDENT: We were better than them, we still are.

DIRK LOUBSCHER: Can you remember that small tactic course, and that to

my mind learnt me the most of, and I think all of us, I remember the first night

when they chased us out of our TV’s and we all started to grab our stuff and ran

in all different directions…and they just kept on shooting over our heads. Then

the next day they told us but why do you run, you must just sit in the shadow and

wait for him to come by…because we cant see you, and then the next night we

laughed at them…they started to shoot at us and we just sat in the shadow of the

bush and he cant see you…

KEVIN FITZGERALD: The training that they did in Kroppies gave us an

incredibly firm foundation, incredibly tough, these guys couldn’t read us, they had

to teach us as much as they possibly could in a terribly short space of time.

DIRK LOUBSCHER: It was about two weeks, one week.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: And they really revved us, and we walked away from

there with an incredible benefit.

MALE SPEAKER: I would say that lecture that I think Kloppies gave us, and he


used two words, was one of the most incredible lectures that I have ever heard in

my life, and he kept…it was about escape and evasion …and he just said Go

Now….and he would talk and say ….Go Now….I think Gavin actually fell asleep

in that lecture…so it wasn’t very impressionable for Gavin…but every five

minutes he would….Go Now….it was incredible, maybe its eighteen years older,

but that had an impression.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: But look at Gert’s experience when you had that

accident and you thought you were in a foreign hospital…Gert had applied

everything that fell from that lecture….try and use as much of what it had, try and

snibble away as much as possible….

MALE SPEAKER: I was only prepared to kill the rooster.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Gert ended up in hospital after a car crash, and thought

he was in captivity …hid forks away, did this and that, and the next thing he had

engineered his escape. And it took a lot of convincing for the hospital staff to

actually convince Gert that he was in hospital …lets just say in Durban…there is

a hospital in Durban.

MALE SPEAKER: That was in Pretoria, where were you…Pietermaritzburg,

they transferred me to One Military.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: That’s what I was telling you, the impression that Diddies

and Kloppies formed on us, in our young minds, I mean he is still with us today,

and I am telling you …Diddie has passed away a while ago….

MALE SPEAKER: No, I didn’t know that. What happened?

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Cancer.


THEO LIPMANN: I think the time that we went to 32 for me personally was the

most informative years…for me, the most impressionable, if you take whets

happened in the 26 months that we were there, how it influenced and then some

of the friendships…although Thabo you and I were seeing each other a lot, you

cannot explain it, the days when we haven’t seen each other, it’s the most

incredibly thing. That friendship that you still have, quarter of a century after we

have left, but it was absolutely unbelievable, it was fantastic, I wouldn’t take it

away for anything.

DIRK LOUBSCHER: I can also remember the training works of Kloppies and

Diddies, except for that night when they revved us the two nights, it was the day

after we wrote the exam, I think it was a Friday morning…and we had that whole

week we were just chased around, they inspected our weapons, as good Kobo’s

and veterans….on the last day and then they saw that most of our weapons were

dirty and they asked in those exams, we thought that everything was over, and

done…and they put us on the shooting range, but they chased us, that day I was

nearly, we had done all that training for selection, and then small selection, minor

tactics…but that day I was…I think the next day like Savate was the same…I

was so tired after that ….

OPPIES: I would like us at this point maybe just to check on the initial

pleas….the names and …because there is a bit of vagueness there and we need

to put Piet straight on the facts in his book, to get the full picture…I was kind of

personal and I realised my name is not in the book, and I was at the trust where

we actually granted him the money for the book.


THEO LIPMANN: Maybe you didn’t give him enough.

MALE SPEAKER: My name wasn’t in there either, I was also a bit pissed off.

MALE SPEAKER: I actually felt like a box….[cross talking]

OPPIES: Suddenly a friend came to me and said your name is not in the book

and I thought he must think I am the biggest bull shitter around, so if we look at

the different teams….Frans Fourie and Piet Uys number one. Zac and Fritz

number two…then Billy Botes and Thabo Maree as number three…myself

Oppies and Daisy Dirk Loubser number four. Number five was Theuns Maree

and Gert Kotze…number six was Willie Botha and Piet Nortje…and then from

here it becomes a bit vague for some or other reason, I think we stayed too far

apart …I don’t know if he stayed next to you….were you on the opposite side

with Pierre Dahl….

MALE SPEAKER: I think I was initially with Pierre Dahl and then….you started

with Billy Buys.

OPPIES: No Thabo and I started together and Daisy and Boats had a fight…so

Blue Kennedy decided to change us around so Thabo took Boats and Daisy

came to me and that’s how we carried on from there. We had Willie Botha …he

was staying next to, as far as I can remember, next to Theuns …with Piet

Nortje…I think Piet Nortje was his Sarg….then we had Chrisjan Poole ….

MALE SPEAKER: Was that with Gert van der Merwe.

OPPIES: Yes, I suppose with Gert van der Merwe…then Stef Naude…who was

Stef Naude….Gabmon [?] Stef Naude was the last team …he was number

ten….Dave Ledderly….and then Pierre Dahl and yourself. Okay those were the


initial ten …I don’t know if Ron Greary was with us at that stage…he joined us

later on….Blue Kelly was there.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: No Ron was there from the start…..

OPPIES: No, Blue was there from the beginning….unfortunately.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Who was the guy who decided to teach you

Portuguese…can you remember him….

OPPIES: At Amoni?

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Yes.

DIRK LOUBSCHER: Oppies will jy nie vir Chrisjan prober bel en hoor …seker

maak watter span was hy gewees nie?

OPPIES: Okay, please ja. Dit sal nice wees. Chrisjan….I tried to phone him

two days ago, the number didn’t work. Okay so those were the teams…that

makes up the ten teams and that’s how we started off, those were the ten guys.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Happy days.

OPPIES: I couldn’t remember if Gert was with us from the beginning …I but he

was…Gert van der Merwe….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Him and Piet Uys were at the top….I don’t have a

memory of Piet being on selection, I must be honest. [cross talking]

OPPIES: But from there….[cross talking] that was in that year. Weet julle wie

mis ons uit hierso….waar is Piet van Eeden hierso? Piet van Eeden came after

Peter Lipmann….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: What happened to Piet van Eeden…was he [cross

talking]


OPPIES: Ore het ons ook later gejoin, Ore Venter nadat hy gefire was by

infantry skool…

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Yes but he came as a base tiffy though….

MALE SPEAKER: Kim was there…they weren’t part of the Recce group.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: They were mainly personnel….

OPPIES: After Dave Ledderley got shot up and whatever and left, when did

smoothie join us, only a year after.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: He came with the lecture input intake…the next year

intake.

MALE SPEAKER: He shot himself in the foot while he was drawing…..

OPPIES: He wanted to draw and the towel was over the revolver and he shot

himself through the foot.

THEO LIPMANN: He told the guys in Pretoria on his crutches that it was one

hell of a battle. [cross talking]

OPPIES: He died as well…apparently he did these morning chopper flights for

traffic and he crashed his chopper and died.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: I have no comment to offer on that but…..seriously you

tell me something, he does all the training for the ops, everything for the op but

the moment he puts his foot in the clepper and go, suddenly he had an

accidental discharge, how’s that.

OPPIES: So are you happy with the teams as we put it together more or less?

Those were the ten teams….

MALE SPEAKER: I just want realise that is originally…we have got a bit of


movement around us, I don’t know if anybody…did anybody stay originally stay

at one through to …..

MALE SPEAKER: I did, he did….

MALE SPEAKER: Because I ended with Boats quite a bit I remember, I don’t

know why …I just.

OPPIES: It might have been with Lieb and all that….we must remember Willie

stopped operating at some stage…after that…

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Piet Nortje stopped after the first contact….

OPPIES: The first one we had up there, there was a second one….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: It was Willie Botes’ crowd that had that one.

OPPIES: That’s where Piet, he was on that one as well. He was my Corporal,

so Gert and I we had a major night that first night because whenever I sleep I

get these little jerks in my sleep and I would hear Gert scuttling for his rifle….and

then I would be awake and say whets it, and I would say whets it, he said no you

moved, I said no you moved…that whole night we were ….

MALE SPEAKER: Did you eventually work out that it was him.

OPPIES: Yes. Maar as ‘n ou se gewete jou pla, dan pla die gewete.

INTERVIEWER: So you guys were the first recce wing.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Probably the longest serving of the [inaudible] by the

way. I get preferential service but ….

OPPIES: One thing I must also mention, we operated that first year without any

real leadership…we had Lukie as Staff Sergeant…we ….then Willem only joined

us after one year….Frank Fourie took over from [?] Kelly when we [interjected]


KEVIN FITZGERALD: I don’t think Francois was ever officially appointed but he

filled that role [inaudible]

OPPIES: Yes, for a good six months before Willem came. We had a little vote

there about who it was going to be. I can remember, Francois Fourie and

INTERVIEWER: [inaudible]

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Angela we are just trying to take you to the uniqueness

that you found in the unit and the uniqueness that was in the recce group was

something incredible. Rank didn’t count, what counted was who you are on your

own merits as a person and as you know Francois went on to have incredible

career in the military and Oppies was always in leadership, that surprised me.

There was no question about I have the senior rank here, so I am taking over, it

didn’t work that way. If your peers thought you were competent then they gave

you their vote of confidence and that’s how it worked, and likewise if they didn’t

feel confident with you, they would let you know too. And it could happen.

MALE SPEAKER: [inaudible] arrived there the one day and had a heck of a

reputation, because we also used to know rank etc., and [cross talking] that’s like

a very unusual statement that he said….[cross talking]

KEVIN FITZGERALD: He only got shot at a few times….Lieutenant shall we go

forward or stay, and he would say get the f….out of here. So that’s sorted it out

very quickly. [cross talking]

MALE SPEAKER: He was right in a sense….he was a trooper but became

Captain quite soon after that.

OPPIES: About six months or maybe….


MALE SPEAKER: He was used to the rank for a normal military.

B SIDE

DIRK LOUBSCHER: You must help me on that Thabo, Oppies I think there

was only the one base that 32 Battalion had and that was Buffalo,

OPPIES: As a unique camp …

DIRK LOUBSCHER: Yes but we were the first guys who went to Amahoni…

OPPIES: Maar dit was operasionele basis Amahoni.

DIRK LOUBSCHER: Yes it was only used as an operational base.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Gert actually Rundu was operational base, that’s where

the guys used to appoint [cross talking] Amahoni was like a small logistical sort

of….prior to having been used by the Hott’s people, remember we got a …a chap

landed there one day and he got [inaudible] looked at the stables, they got

talking to this guy and said no …but two three years time he said this use to be

the Bereda…the horses operated from. [ cross talking] we must try and preserve

as much of the history of the base as possible.

MALE SPEAKER: But there was no stables there.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: No there were, behind the main stores, there was like a

wooden …don’t you know there were stables up there. The structure of the

stable might have been gone, but the remnants of it were there, and they said to

me this is where the horses used to be, and this and that and the next thing.

DIRK LOUBSCHER: We were the first group of 32 Battalion to stay there.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Permanently located there.

THEO LIPMANN: It was specifically our base….


OPPIES: And they also, like I know Diddies after that the operations that he did

on his own, he came there and he did his preparation there…that small group….

Toy Fondso also came once….Smith….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: What did he [inaudible] did you ever get a

meeting….what was his proper name.

MALE SPEAKER: Kaffir …he is white…his mates didn’t like him.

OPPIES: I think the guy can also remember we stayed with our troops in one

tent…the teams were like …

KEVIN FITZGERALD: The great Blue Kelly [inaudible] [cross talking]

INTERVIEWER: Was this Blue Kelly’s idea that everyone should be integrated

and ….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Yes, Blue had this mindset that listen you little racist

whities you were brought up in a racist society….

INTERVIEWER: He is Australian.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Yes he was an Australian…it was his attempt to get us

sort of integrated with our fellow compadres….

MALE SPEAKER: Its because Blue liked black nannies…he thought that

we….[cross talking] at a party the one day, one of his Zulu nannies [inaudible]

MALE SPEAKER: Guys let on this last pass …I got a black nanny, I could see

my face in her sweat, to make us cross remember….[cross talking]

MALE SPEAKER: You want our unbiased opinion of Blue Kelly, ask Mike he

got on very well.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Peter did you join us that day in Rosebank when we


were saying cheers to Mike Rogers…did you join us that day…we had a farewell

lunch for Mike…but Mike…anyway Michael is running late and Blue pitches up

and he was with Executive Outcomes at the time….and he said Fritzy or might

be joining us…do they still want to kill me….

OPPIES: Maybe just for the record as well, Rita just asked me the troops….2

white guys’ three troops in a stick….5 man teams. My original troops were

Chisandre he was my Corporal….Costa came later….because it was …it was

Alfredo….you are right…it was Costa, Alfredo and Chisandre …when Chisandre

got killed we got hy is nou ‘n pastor daar op Pomfret….I will get to his name

now….he replaced Chisandre….

DIRK LOUBSCHER: All these guys, also yellowies….

OPPIES: Yes shortish guy…Thabo…I know Collibo was with you and Costa.

THABO MAREE: We had four troops in the [inaudible] and three of them ran

away that day…and those three were fired from the Recce group after that, so

we [inaudible] [cross talking]

DIRK LOUBSCHER: They showed us like Thabo said that they take us as

mean soldiers but when we really got to the frontline we saw it was very

courages for them to pick up a swastika and run.

OPPIES: At the end of that first year we lost most of our troops…they went back

to the platoons, they couldn’t face the reality of small teams…

KEVIN FITZGERALD: They were more comfortable in larger teams…the

[inaudible] twins survived, Caniba stayed on…Dellsure …

MALE SPEAKER: Dallsure, he was a strong thing, short and stocky …and


Carlo Manuel he was a youngster…he was only about 17 when he was with

us…he also stayed for a long time. Kevin who got shot through the

hips….[cross talking] Kevin Santos was his name…we used to call him

sandsak….and Kevin had [inaudible] and Theun’s troop, they were within their

rifle [inaudible] and they came…they came back from the shooting range and

they hadn’t made it safe properly and it was in the vice and he was standing,

passing in front when the other one pulled the trigger …you know what, my

brother actually gave him blood in Oshakati that day….I heard that afterwards.

That was on the operating table and my brother actually gave him blood there,

arm to arm.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: After this Oppies was actually telling us the story that he

told us last night.

OPPIES: Okay, we have to get to Savati at some stage…I think this is kind of

getting the picture straight at the beginning group.

INTERVIEWER: I think maybe we can start on Savati.

OPPIES: I wish Willem was here, but okay …he will probably pitch up.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: He is in Pretoria…I drove all the way from Johannesburg

last night to get to the restaurant first …and the guy comes half an hour

later…explain this to me.

OPPIES: Okay, what happened at Savati…

INTERVIEWER: Let me just to refresh your, well what Piet has written in his

book….is that at the time UNITA was starting to take the towns along the

Cuvango River…and there was actually a request from UNITA …a direct request


from Savimbi to the Generals to take the town of Savate…and the intelligence

officer for UNITA at the time was a guy called Pessito who is currently the head

of the Institute for Military….[Portuguese ] in Angola which is their Military

Academy. But at the time I think it was the same person, I think he was the head

of UNITA intelligence.

OPPIES: So Boats and I came back from leave…met up, when we landed at

Rundu I was requested to stay behind in Rundu, Boats was sent back to

Amahoni …Willem was there and I found myself in this strange situation where it

was like in the headquarters in a planning session …probably the first that I had

experienced in my life where it was done in a building and not at Amahoni where

we sat on the ground and ….

DIRK LOUBSCHER: If I can just say something that I remember now…that

was the time when Savate was our second year and I think that was the time

when we didn’t really operate much in those times as teams…we …there were

one or two groups who were doing reconnaissance …with Willem and then the

other group was like more like a fighting force for real fights….if I can remember

something like that.

OPPIES: It started off that way so we started planning for Savate…I was taking

a group to do the access route, to reconnaissance the access group to the

dispersal point…where the whole fighting force would disperse from there.

Willem went in with another group …he went in to check up the base

itself…with…in choice I chose Thabo, Boats, Caliba, the machine gunner, and

Casu was the medic…so the five of us went in to do the route in…Willem had,


we had a discussion last night about it, and a difference of opinion eventually

…Piet van Eeden with him….Paulu….Piet van Eeden and Paulu and then a

UNITA ….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: No, that’s a different context.

DIRK LOUBSCHER: Costa was the one who went with Willem, I remember it

was there where he walked in the base….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Piet and Costa stayed behind to guard the Kleppers and

things…Willem and Paula did the base recce….

OPPIES: And this is where this …a Senor Lopez…he took us in…with one of

their vehicles, the two teams.

INTERVIEWER: He was a UNITA intelligence person who was working for

Chief of Staff Intelligence at that time…

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Intelligence, and one of his dubious qualities is that he

can [inaudible]

OPPIES: Okay so we did the aerial photographs and the …we also took the

maps and that, and they would have taken us up …dropped us off at a specific

point where we would walked…it would have been a night in and out to get to the

dispersal point …check out the area…because we were supposed to lead in the

remaining fighting force. Willem and his group they took two kleppers …his

canoe type folding …..

KEVIN FITZGERALD: These are disassembled kyaks….

OPPIES: So they dropped us off that afternoon about three, four o’clock around

there, but the middle of the day, we travelled most of that night and day until they


dropped us off. We each had one water bottle and because it was in and out, we

were dressed lightly. They took Willem further on and we started walking and

walking and walking….eventually came daybreak we were out of water at that

stage …we still couldn’t find the road, and we started doing a 360…meaning you

go one kilometre, one kilometre, then two kilometres, then two kilometres,

making a square to find this road. By one o’clock that afternoon we didn’t find

anything…by then we were basically stuffed because the water was gone and we

were thirsty, it was a hot day …by then probably 40-50 kilometres that we have

walked and not finding anything, so we started talking back to Amahoni to the

main fighting force was at that stage…and said we have got a problem…so they

sent Big Daddy with a spotter and he started looking for us, and for some or

other reason I told him listen you are still south of us…I can hear the aeroplane

but to me it sounded like they were still south of us…eventually they were like 30

odd kilometres north of Savate…there is another establishment there…and they

said but they are going to get into trouble now if I am going that way, they are

much too far north…so they came back and it was just before sunset…suddenly

the plane passed overhead…we said wait you just passed over us….and so then

they realised what happened. The road we were supposed to take was a quite

northerly directed road, but they took the complete different route which went

basically north west, so the time scales as we had it and where we were

supposed to be dropped got sucked up by this other road, and we went through a

UNITA establishment…that was the first time in my life that I actually saw UNITA

in the veldt…we went through one of their towns or bases and from there we


went north…meaning that they dropped us off about five to ten kilometres too far

to the west and about five kilometres south from where we were supposed to be

dropped off, so we were in no-man’s-land ….that’s where the river makes the

turn from North-South to a very North-Westerly, South-Easterly direction and we

were in that no-man’s-land there. Willem on the other hand when they went in,

they heard this base in front of them, they heard the noises from the base and

they thought it was the northerly base where the aeroplane turned around

from…so they went south into the river and started rowing down the river. At

some stage the guide said wait I know this place, its very far south of the

base…so they were actually walking into Savate and thought it was the northerly

base so they rowed back up towards the base and went onto the opposite side,

onto the eastern side of the river bank and they established an observation post

from that side. By then we were…they said no we must just walk back to the

river, they will pick us up when they come in, the main fighting force…and we

said no way we are stuck…we slept there that night and the next morning we

started drinking drips because we didn’t have any water and saline drips and it

tasted so shit that is put condense milk in it and the condense mile actually made

it worse …but we, by then we were dehydrated and I was finished…..I said I am

not walking, if you want me come and fetch me, and big daddy said from base,

no just go to the road we will find you …I said there is no ways….if you want us

you come and fetch us…eventually they came and fetched us by chopper. Flew

us back and took us into the ops room there, showed us on the map what

happened, and then we got onto the vehicles and we started driving in. We slept


over the first night just on the opposite side of the border, next day by nightfall we

were close to the dispersal point from where we deboned from the vehicles. We

took the force to the dispersal point …the recce group was about a kilometre

ahead of the main force…at that dispersal point Zac would have taken over the

recce groups operation. As we entered that bush, the one vehicle came from

behind and we all jumped into the bush …that is my recollection of it. We all

jumped into the bush and that vehicle as he entered the bush area, I think he

saw the tracks on the road and the dust still hanging in the air and he made a u-

turn…he stopped and turned around and went right slap bang into the main

fighting force. They shot him up like …we didn’t hear any shooting but they shot

the whole vehicle up but never hit the driver or anything…he got away and ran

away, and I think that might have been one of the results of what happened

eventually in Savate…he may have made his way back to Base I don’t know, so

we eventually got to the dispersal point, the main group went down, we prepared

from there and that’s where Zac took over with the recce group, and he would

have then lead us into our stopper group position….to the north of Savate…I still

remember talking to Rassie …he was the IO….Captain Erasmus…he got killed

there. I still put black is beautiful on his bless…and said remember you have got

a wife and kids…so look after yourself. That was my last words to him and then

we eventually dispersed …who was the guy with the mortars…Buddies…he went

to the south…Mortar Buddies, because he started the fight that morning with

putting mortars on the town.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: I remember standing around and listening to those


mortars going off…we had no idea that they were [cross talking]

OPPIES: We were not in position yet when they started bombing…we were at

the road about at that stage, and we started dispersing from there….that when I

fell asleep, that night because we were in single file going towards our place and

I just fell asleep, because it was now for the last three or four days that we had

been at it since we started, and when I opened my eyes again I couldn’t see the

guys in front of me, and they were gone. Eventually I …Boats was behind me

…we were in a single file behind each other and he saw and said no they went

that way, so we caught up again. He was walking with his hands in his pockets

and at some stage he stood on a branch and his foot slipped off and he fell

down…so we had kind of fun that night, but we were stuffed…so come sunrise

we were at the road and we stayed behind. We were supposed to be three/three

in proper groups all the way down…but the terrain did not allow that…so I think

two or three of our sticks stayed there at the road and as the bushes allowed or

whatever with enough cover and that, we went into groups and …at the

river….we thought the most obvious escape route would be from the …might be

on the road and that’s why we actually took three groups there at the road…with

enough fire force to stop vehicles coming in.

DIRK LOUBSCHER: I think there was one group on the right hand side of the

road as well….

OPPIES: Yes, but just to cover up a little bit…for the fighting part of it…and then

eventually we, but when we reached the road that morning, the first mortars

already started falling, I think it started at six o’clock that morning, on the dot that


we heard the mortars coming in. And then the fights started and okay we didn’t

see anything for that whole day but we started hearing the vehicles going up the

river side, that’s where Fritz and them were….at this stage I want to give over to

Fritz because ….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: You must have been sleeping.

OPPIES: I was…I was, but then we woke up and so we followed the fight on the

radio …we heard that Rassie got killed and Charle was missing…and with the

vehicles going through that side we decided to all move down towards …by then

your troop was been shot, Alfredo, Alberto Rodriques….he was space monkey…

DIRK LOUBSCHER: Remember we threw him in the air and we didn’t catch

him…and he landed on his head, and he was never the same, we called him

space monkey after that.

OPPIES: They came back but what happened was, after the vehicles …at some

stage when we realised that Charle was gone, we thought they had abducted

him…and we could not allow that, and then the choppers started shooting at the

convoy…that was going out and then there were hundreds of people fleeing to

the north, [cross talking]

MALE SPEAKER: Remember we weren’t allowed any air support….only for

casualties. They only came in for Charle.

MALE SPEAKER: No not even for Charle…when space monkey came in…he

got shot….Sam Heath still came out, he had been wounded remember….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Yes we had already called in chopper casu-vac …then

the choppers came in and we already had heavy casualties before that. They


thing about this op and we need to put it into perspective here…you were

mentioning intelligence earlier on and so on and so forth…now we were not

really privy to the mechanisms behind the whole issue…safe to say they even

involved UNITA there was some sort of shenanigans going on …we all accepted

that…they really were very clever at disguising the real motives why they actually

requested the South Africans….I think the South African Defence Force actually

didn’t control UNITA strongly as perhaps they could have. We were very

subservient to them. We helped them on may occasions, things that you will

never know about happened and I think a certain amount of illicit trade off also

occurred for the benefit of certain people in higher echelon….I am saying it for

the record, he made quite a [inaudible]

MALE SPEAKER: But you go back to the orders before this even started, go

back to the orders at Amahoni…that was, I think it was very well done, remember

we were in the mess….and Captain Erasmus had talked about, remember his

comment there….he still had one of those pointers and he still made a joke at the

end, remember, and said if SWAPO cant take a joke, best they are not there.

And the [inaudible] was there…and we all laughed and this was going to be

funny…

KEVIN FITZGERALD: One of the things that you realised about this whole thing

was you were not going to have the advantage of air support…we were all very

conscious of that. This was going to be a hard battle and we knew it was going

to be hard, and it turned out a lot more intense.

OPPIES: Yes, the reason why is because we went in clandestine as


UNITA…and they knew UNITA did not have air coverage, so that…they didn’t

have choppers and that kind of thing, so we would have gone in…intelligence at

that stage said 200 odd people in base, and five or six vehicles…there was a

main force coming down from the north, and we had to take the town before they

came in. Eventually there were 2000 and something in base…we were a main

force of 400 odd because we said two to one…we will take the town and get

them out…eventually we were outnumbered by five to one…

MALE SPEAKER: Just to jump again, did we lose 17 on that day?

KEVIN FITZGERALD: 60….

OPPIES: What we counted about 560 – 580….so the reason why we did not

have the air support and there was a very odd part of the orders were that only if

a white person gets killed or wounded they would come in and fetch him….[cross

talking] I know because I was part of the planning process….

MALE SPEAKER: But why is that odd?

KEVIN FITZGERALD: I thought they would be general for casu-vacs …

OPPIES: That was a very specific order….[cross talking]

KEVIN FITZGERALD: You know why I think that order came out, because they

didn’t want any whites landing in NPLA hands because it was meant to be a

supposedly UNITA exercise, and that was the thinking behind that, because

when Charle…went missing, I mean the hunt to find him was intense and

exemplas what I am saying is…if it would appear that they would have a white

person in their hands, to show now that the so called UNITA stuff doesn’t exist,

its actually a 32 …saying that all along, and here it is to show you.


INTERVIEWER: It would have been a big propaganda.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: That was the principle reason why they wanted to get

while wounded officers and NCO’s out so that these guys weren’t left there

wounded, and the intensity of the fact was that it had to happen. The intensity of

the battle would have actually left behind…the battles we fought, the NPLA lines

would sweep around behind and that’s how a lot of these guys were killed, they

were isolated, with the medic [inaudible] all of a sudden there are twenty or thirty

people streaming out of the bushes here and they are dead ducks…and the big

fear was that if any of those bodies were ever put on parade the SADF would

have a lot of explaining to do….egg on their face basically.

DIRK LOUBSCHER: The other thing that I also remember was the black is

beautiful that we use…they were very tense on that operation that you had to

make sure in the morning and in the evening that you have to be recovered…

OPPIES: I can remember…so when Charle disappeared the whole recce group,

from the road we decided we were going down to help Fritz and Zac down at that

the river …because they took all the fighting the whole day, and by then the….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Fritz and Lipmann my boy.

OPPIES: Yes I was there with you, running down that river there and getting

clawed at the back from your [inaudible] that blue up.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Zac sat passively by while I [interjected]

OPPIES: Great but whichever way I wasn’t there so you can talk on that…so we

all grouped together and we took on all the groups as we were in the stopper

groups and we realised then that they are not going to use the road and we went


down that way and by then they were streaming by their tents…and as we went

down that way we started shooting…Daisy stayed behind for some other reason,

I think we left a skeleton group behind in each location…and he went and saw

two guys running and he shot the one from far off, and he said I got one, and we

said ja, ja, ja,….to Boats and I we saw the two guys so we split off from the main

group and went in to look for the one that he shot…he was talking us into the

location where the guy dropped, so we wanted to go and get him…there was

another one he went into the grass….so Boats and I we were about 40 yards

apart…he was on the far side and I was on the near side and the main group

then swept up the river bank and suddenly this one guy popped his head out of

the reeds and I shot at him but my rifle was on automatic and the second shot

actually landed right in front of Boat’s toes…I nearly shot Boats and he was the

moer in with me, he said hey you nearly shot me, and I said sorry, sorry….so I

ran up to the guy and the first shot actually got him and he was wounded and

lying there, and so I ran and jumped on him so he could not shoot us, but in the

meantime Swannie in the main group put fire to the vlei there….

MALE SPEAKER: What had happened there….we were sitting and three guys

walked up…the two Viera [?] twins and I was on the side and three guys walked

up, and at that point in time my bowls said time to get emptied…so I was actually

having a crap and these three guys were walking up and I said to Viera’s

[inaudible] because I was still to pull my pants up and get my rifle…they thought

I said fall…so they [inaudible] and I was pulling my pants up and grabbing my

rifle and shoot and whatever, they then got into the reeds and that’s when we


through the white fos to try and get them out, and that caused the initial …the fire

where …then the battle carried on …we will get to that later, but that fire ….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: That memory with the ruck sack in the tree…

MALE SPEAKER: But we didn’t know what it was, because we were fighting

down the side taking fire from wherever and we heard the noise behind, not

knowing it was your machine gun noise.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: We had met up with you guys we had just had one of

our little fire fights so we dumped all our kit and got into the fire fight and you

guys had had your action, and we were actually coming back together, walking

back together when the thing suddenly let rip and we thought we are in bit shit

here, and looked around that dead silence, and we went out and realised, our

machine guns and we ran back and ….

MALE SPEAKER: Not our machines your one that you left behind.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: You guys had also dumped your machines….

MALE SPEAKER: Yes and ….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: And from the perspective of battling death that day,

without a question Peter and I were actively almost didn’t stop, the whole day.

MALE SPEAKER: Remember we saw the guys and we ran down and chased

them, we saw a vehicle coming up that you shot at and it did a u-turn remember

it came back.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: We shot at a convoy bud….

MALE SPEAKER: No we shot at a vehicle…and that vehicle went up, we shot,

it did u-turn, hit the tree and stopped….and we didn’t realise what was


happening…we went to have a look and there was blood and stuff in the vehicle

and the guy was gone. When we got there was 500gram tins of Red Tuna…we

ate with bayonets and condense milk.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: But we shot up that convoy later on.

MALE SPEAKER: Yes that was later on.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Like I said last night, that was great fun….the convoy

was like a Hollywood movie…

OPPIES: Then Ekerman and the convoy came down the road and they went to

cut off the front vehicles past us that went through…the chopper actually took out

some of the convoy vehicles that has passed through our lines….so eventually

what happened, I saw this guy he had one of these Bakelite AK magazines on

his belt, the one that I jumped on where it nearly shot Boats….and I was still bent

over him and I couldn’t get the thing out so I had to loosen his belt and that, and

by then he was dead….so I tried to get this Bakelite bayonet from his belt and the

next minute the fire caught me from behind him …and my whole face was burnt, I

still remember it was about three days this left eye of mine was kind of burnt into

a little ..opgeskroei toege….

MALE SPEAKER: Have you still got the bayonet?

OPPIES: No, so what happened is I left, I just grabbed my rifle and his and I ran

out of the fire again…so Boats and I stood there and we realised we were in big

shit now because there was this wall of fire coming towards us so we looked and

looked and checked where the fire was at its lowest and we ran through the fire

towards you, the other group. So we ran through the fire and then we saw that


guy and the guy that Daisy shot to the right…he was probably five yards from

where I was when I shot the other guy…and nearly killed both. And there were

the two guys and by then the bayonet was off the …so it was actually …

DIRK LOUBSCHER: That thing about the kill…Oppies jumped on him and

Diddies he always tell us you don’t kill, you overkill….he told us, him or Kloppies,

the only thing he wanted to say was to make sure that he is dead, and that he is

not in a position when he is still lying down there and to shoot you.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Have any of you guys been watching this program on

BBC…those of you who are crazy enough to watch DSTV…they actually had a

very interesting program on that….channel…I remember MFM….clearly

emphasising with those guys, never take them for granted, make sure the guy is

dead. Because you are walking across in his peep line, the guy is going to shoot

you from behind….I never forgot that, we never took a chance…it was drilled into

us, as much as go now was drilled into us…remember make sure they are

dead…

OPPIES: Lucky Thabo will still remember that one…when Falkons said from the

chopper now shoot Oppies, kan jy onthou…for that reason there were still guys

lying around there…I took one troop and we went out to collect the weapons and

make sure they were dead, and Falcon said there is somebody there, and Thabo

shouted don’t shoot its Oppies, and Falcon lost his cool there because I was

away from the group.

MALE SPEAKER: What op was that?

OPPIES: That was where we had those ambush things where ….


MALE SPEAKER: Was that fire force, when we did fire force we were in

platoon…

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Butterfly was the fire course.

MALE SPEAKER: Yes we went in and …

OPPIES: We went in and we killed twelve of them that day in the area where

the chopper took off and Theuns and I and Frankie stayed behind and the

chopper…that’s where the chopper pilot shat in his overalls that day and he had

to turn back ….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Our chopper pilots were good.

OPPIES: The chopper took off and as they came back I wanted to get in again

and the whole stream came out again and then we started cleaning up the area.

And Falcon said from the chopper, nou skiet vir Oppies. Thabe skreeu moenie

skiet nie dit is Oppies.

KEVIN FITZGERALD: That emphasis of making sure that they are dead, they

had quite an interesting programme run by Eddie Stone, in SAS Task [inaudible]

we had two of them, SAS are you tough enough for the jungle, and SAS are you

tough enough for the Desert thing which was Storm in Namibia, and I watched

these things in various patches and I never watched it in [inaudible] ….i was

watching a re-run the other night of one in the jungle, and it just showed you how

the male is going to go totally against the grain of what most of us are going to

say here…but some woman on those selection courses matched the men and

made it right through to the end and the one in South West Africa, two women,

and two guys got through to the end. It just shows you resilience is not always


gender based.

MALE SPEAKER: They must have had [inaudible]

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Sorry, and in this programme they put this question to

the woman, are you sure you killed him…they had a mock attack on a terrorist

base or something…and once again they said are you sure you killed them…now

the SAS performed a raid a few years ago in the mid 80’s where they killed IRA

terrorists in Gibraltar and it was two SAS Sergeants that were actually

responsible for doing the assassination if you want to call it that, and these guys

pumped almost the entire Brownie magazine into each of these guys. The

families of these two Irish guys they went to the Human Rights Court and these

two guys were held up for trial…and the question of how many rounds they shot,

the guy turned around and said why did you stop shooting….the guy said I

couldn’t reload fast enough, that kind of comment…but they grilled this particular

candidate on the selection course for TV purposes…they grilled her and said are

you absolutely sure that person was dead…and she turned around and said but

why…and she said you cannot take a chance they have to be certain of

that…and that was grilled into us…we were taught to be very economical about

shooting, double tag, make sure they counted…if you weren’t sure you gave him

a few more…and for good measure a few more, but you make sure that he is

dead otherwise you were going to be the dead guy, and that’s what it came down

to. I was going to live and that guy was going to die, bottom line.

OPPIES: We lost people like that….Willie de Vos and Wally Coetzee was shot

like that from behind…they passed through and the guy shot them from behind.


MALE SPEAKER: And they didn’t have black is beautiful, so they singled out

the white guys and ….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Right, but that overkill issue.

OPPIES: Savate…in the meantime what happened…Willem was on the other

side of the river…that night when we moved in, he actually crossed the river with

as far as I can remember Paulu…the worked through the base…he realised

there was big shit…because there were far more people in that base than what

was originally given to us by the intelligence…and so he took…they had a party

and he took beer cans and that and marked out the trenches…and there were

two sets of trenches as well which we didn’t know about…so he took the beer

cans and walked through the whole camp…he marked out the trenches for the

beer cans for the initial fighting the next day, for them to be able to see it…but

communication was still bad at that stage…

DIRK LOUBSCHER: Was it in that marking of him that you walked into the one

guard, and the guard was talking to him and he didn’t talk at all to the guard and

Paulu talked back to the guard and then he just carried on, Willem just carried on

with his marking…that was…

OPPIES: That was at the air strip….and during that day Rassie got killed,

Patrick got killed, he was intelligence junior…Rassie got shot right next to Falcon

through the neck…Trompie was there so Trompie will give us that …

KEVIN FITZGERALD: Patrick got struck with the white fos.

OPPIES: Yes he got shot through the white fos and he burnt out…eventually

they found Charl the next morning, I think …or that afternoon late…


MALE SPEAKER: No that same day…we still had to go back and look for his

body.

OPPIES: That was during that attack the Thursday when we were running with

the convoy at the north….

KEVIN FITZGERALD: You are quite certain about that….[cross talking]

MALE SPEAKER: We had the radio on with a normal handset, and they cried

haven’t found haven’t found and it came through they had found his body.

OPPIES: He was dead in one of the trenches. So Engelbrecht was the only

one missing the next day, and after we regrouped his platoon was sent back to

fetch him, or to look for him, he was gone…he and another troop Willem Nel…so

what happened at that stage was the following night the platoon was sent back

…Engelbrecht was still missing and one of his troops and they went straight back

and found him actually lying there with his corporal or whatever over him, and

they both were killed and that was the kelp at that stage. It was a red head

guy…he wasn’t there for long.

END OF RECORDING

Collection Number: A3079 Collection Name: “Missing Voices” Oral History Project, 2004-2012

PUBLISHER: Publisher: Historical Papers Research Archive, University of the Witwatersrand Location: Johannesburg ©2016

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