Chatting with Steve Edwards: Working with People

By Cindy K. Roberts©

Early morning chats continue with Steve Edwards of Queen Valley

Mule Ranch who is committed to educating mule owners on how to

effectively communicate with their mule. Steve talks candidly with me

about the mule’s image and working with people.

Cindy K. Roberts: How are you able to help mule handlers to elevate

their skillset?

Steve: For several years now, I have students that come to the ranch,

some just come for a few hours and others for a month at a time and

they want to be a trainer; a trainer of a variety of things. We go from

colt starting to problems to packing, whatever anyone thinks they

want to do. But as I am watching them, I can see that maybe they are good at a particular thing and I try

to encourage them to do [just] that. I put together the first program at Pierce College in L.A. and

[through] that program you can go to the college and actually get college credit and become a trainer.

In fact, I am looking at right now my certificate hanging on the wall; says Los Angeles Community College

District, in recognition of Steve Edwards serving Equine Science for developing the first mule training

program.

CKR: That’s impressive, so, you are able to customize a program to fit the mule handler’s needs?

Steve: Somebody comes to me and says they want to start colts, well; all we do is start colts. The

average trainer can train four to six animals a week and in order to do them (the clients) justice, and to

do a quality job, six would be the max. Yes, I have people come here, they can up the ladder in different

steps and quite often I get phone calls to help them out as well.

CKR: That’s exciting! What do you believe are some of the biggest training errors that novice trainers

tend to make with their mules? What do you see going on that can be corrected?

Steve: As example let’s say we want a mule to get out of our space which is probably the major thing I

work with in every clinic. Let’s just say the mule is in his space, the owner has the lead rope in their hand

and they are using what I call a come-along-hitch which is basically a lariat that’s waxed, 22 ft. long, it

goes around the nose up over top the ears and it communicates to the poll, top of the nose and

underneath the nose. So you are communicating to the three very basic parts of the head; if you are

only using a chain, you are hitting the bottom of the chin you are not getting full communication so on

top the nose you are not getting full communication. So you want the mule to get out of our space and I

do everything in threes. The first step is bump-bump with my hand combination; mainly what I like to

use is only my wrist, that way I don’t over pull, so I go bump-bump and the mule steps back: that is step

one. Even if it’s a small try, even if the nose only moves and not the feet, so bump-bump, the nose

moves, bump-bump the shoulder moves, bump-bump the feet move, quit we are done! We just built a

foundation. What people tend to do is say, ‘oh I got it, let’s do it some more!’ That’s enough today! We

look for the smallest try and once we hit three, we are done for today. Now, we could train [again] that

afternoon, but if we allow the mule to soak in and think on it; the next day he is going to show you is

what he had a chance to think on and will [now] know how to comply with you.

Figure 1 Steve Edwards works with a mule that doesn't respect a handler's space by using the come-along-hitch.

CKR: What training errors do you see horse trainers make while training a mule for a client?

Steve: They tend to use the same tools on the mule that they use on their horse. Tool one, a rope

halter that is adjusted high on the nose where it is only communicating to the bone of the nose and not

to the actual nose of the mule. They don’t realize that mules care more about their nose than their

mouth because they don’t understand the donkey side. If you understand the donkey side you

understand the sensitivity of the nose; therefore it doesn’t take near as much work when you do that.

That’s one tool. The other tool is using a snaffle bit which is smooth. The purpose of the snaffle bit is to

first, build a foundation or correct a problem. The purpose of the snaffle bit is to communicate to the

corners of the mouth, the tongue of the mouth and the bars of the mouth. So by using those three

communication points skills through the bit, when I pick up on the bit and I ask them to go to the right, I

expect him to go along with that. But unfortunately people tend to pull rather than to pick up and allow

the bit to move; allow the bit to do it. So in other words, the most you would do is put your hand in an

ice cream cone position straight up and down, you only turn your wrist, that’s all. So your hands are

[positioned] like the hands on your steering wheel of your car, picture that. Now, what happens with

the smooth snaffle bit is, the mule will test the bit. He will test [the bit] to see how much he will get

away with and he’s mainly doing it to protect himself because we tend to pull on the mule. When we

ask him to go to the right, if we wait he will eventually go because of the light touch that you’re giving

him. But if you pick up on your hands and you pull against him, he’s going to protect himself with all five

major neck muscles; which is what the donkey does. And when he does that he tests [the bit] that day

and the next day; and each time to protect himself. [The mule is thinking] what can I do to keep you

from pulling on me? Then you’re thinking, you are doing all right and you go out, you climb on him to go

riding; then one day this mule says I am not going to the right, I want to go to the left! This mule gets

ahold of this bit and he runs through his left shoulder! You can take him to all the circles in the world!

But he’ll keep on, he knows. You may have got him that day, you may have got him the next day but

when you really need to get him going the direction you want, you’ve got that bit pushing up against his

shoulder and he’s gone. So when you work the mule with his mouth, it’s

important that you understand that you use a double twisted wire. The

double twisted wire snaffle communicates to their whole tongue rather

than communicate to just one spot. It covers the whole tongue. Double

twisted wire communicates to the upper bars and the lower bars, the

wonderful thing about that bit is that if they test it even in a small way, it’s

going to bite ‘em, where a smooth snaffle bit they can put it on and ignore it. Because it doesn’t tell Mr.

Mule that he is making a mistake and if Mr. Mule makes this mistake he is going to be uncomfortable.

You see, with the smooth snaffle bit they can pull on it with their mouth, tighten up their neck muscles

and they gotcha! So now the trainer is all done and the mule looks pretty good then one day that novice

rider goes out for a ride and goes to pick up on that bridle and that mule runs through his shoulder it all

came back to the day he put that smooth snaffle bit in his mouth.

CKR: That is very well said! We tend to criticize the mule for being stubborn and testing you, however

the way you put it, he is protecting himself! So, in other words we shouldn’t start a mule out in a

smooth snaffle at all? Let’s just say that you have really good hands.

Steve: I’ve seen folks that have what everybody thinks are really good hands and watch the hands. The

left hand, let’s say you want to go to the right, the left hand goes past the horn, the right hand goes over

toward the leg and we over pull. What’s really a good hand?

CKR: Seat and leg is very much needed.

Steve: Well, seat and leg is needed but we have to build a neck rein. You can’t do it with seat, ok. It has

to be with their hands and if we allow the bit to do the job to where we’re barely coming up on that bit;

see we are allowing the bit to do the job instead of making the bit do the job.

CKR: So, communication, communication, communication.

Steve: Yes ma’am.

CKR: Is there a way to help change the mindset of some of these trainers so that the mule is trained

effectively and not harshly?

Steve: No. Unfortunately, some people have a lot of pride and they don’t want to look bad and some

people just don’t want to come under any kind of condemnation so to speak. I don’t have any intention

of doing anything but help people and being as polite and consistent as possible. So I wish I could say

yes to that. A very good friend of mine, Al Dunning, a twenty-three time world champion has a lot to do

with showing and he will tell you, there are just some folks, their training is the way it is and they are not

going to change it. Unfortunately, I don’t have many trainers that are full professionals that come to my

clinics.

CKR: Um, you can bet yourself they are reading your stuff, they’re watching your DVDS (laughter.)

Steve: You know, if you got to make any changes to life, it is your choice. You make your own world

and you need to make the changes.

CKR: What kind of mistakes do you see horse trainers making while training a donkey for a client?

Steve: Yeah, it’s basically the same thing. They are using a halter that is misadjusted, most folks don’t

understand the come-along hitch and the finesse it has; they also think that you have to train every day

and you don’t. [Training] three to four hours a week is a lot of time. We have to remember that the

mule and donkey, the part of their mind that really holds onto [information] that little ol' size of a

walnut brain; they can only handle so much information.

CKR: Have you obtained mules or donkeys from an auction or sale barn, if so, what was that like?

Figure 2 Steve Edwards demonstrating the come-along-hitch along with the properly fitted rope halter.

Steve: Oh yeah, well I see people making the mule out to be what he’s not. Folks aren’t seeing some of

these simple things for instance if the mule doesn’t want to go to the left, rather than really get after

him they just change and go to the right really quick. Folks don’t see that but it happens and what folks

need to understand is you need to see the mule outside where his feet have been picked up, being

caught, and things like that. Folks that are seeing an animal for eighteen minutes at a sale barn is not

enough [time] to make a qualifying purchase. We also need to do a pre-purchase exam by a

veterinarian.

CKR: Have you thought about putting on a performance mule sale at your ranch?

Steve: No . . . a couple of Reese brothers have mentioned it. The mule does just fine. It’s the people

that need the help. People rely too much on ‘well the mule knows this or that’ and that is how they

make their decision. That’s not correct. It’s not a matter of what the mule knows, or let’s just trust him

and let him go. No, it takes your [own] ability to take that mule there.

When I was younger I bought a lot of my mules [at sales] I was buying them for no more than $25 as an

average and that’s how I learned. I took those mules and learned from them. And that’s what I done.

CKR: What kind of saddle mules do you like to see being offered for sale for performance or trail riding?

Steve: I like to see disposition; a willing, consistent disposition. Most people when they’re riding [the

mule] they think he is trained when really it’s his disposition that they’re able to go with. A [Missouri]

Fox Trotter is a wonderful animal – fairly evenly minded; kinda depends on the breed of Fox Trotter but

fairly even minded. They do have a nice walk, their back is usually pretty consistent conformation wise

the disposition among everything else.

CKR: What about conformation? Do you have a preference? Would you like to see better quality mules

at a sale?

Steve: I would like to see better quality mules all the way around. I mean it’s phenomenal, [the quality

mules] I’ve seen world-wide. When I was in Brazil in 2006, I’ve seen some top quality [mules] and when

I was in Egypt, [laughs] it was just junk. We’re seeing now, I’m seeing now, here in the United States,

just really, nice-minded mules, just phenomenal, it’s fantastic to see it! And it’s all because of good

breeding, really good breeding! The down-size of it is we tend to breed to any jack rather than breed to

a jack with a good mind and pretty fair conformation. Unfortunately most conformations aren’t really

good on the jack; we have to remember that our guidelines are quarter horse and most [jacks] don’t fall

under those guidelines. Even though we set him up halter-wise to make them look like they are, uh

when you actually see ‘em walking and going, you don’t see it, no.

CKR: Yeah, so how can we better represent the mule at a sale?

Steve: Be honest, just be honest. Don’t use the words, ‘anybody can ride this mule,’ there’s a

difference between riding and sitting. Uh, the ‘been-there-done-that-mule,’ ‘oh man this mule has

packed out twenty elks,’ well then did you also have 20 actions with it as well? You know?

Unfortunately you only have just so many minutes to show the mule, I like select sales where you see

the mule ahead of time, which is great you can see the mules doing trail courses, he’s seen being rode

around, and everybody thinks oh wow that’s a really well broke mule but we also have to understand

the rider has a lot to do with it. We see kids riding, we think, oh boy, if a kid can ride it that mule is

going to be a good mule. Well kids can out ride most people. When we watch people stand up in the

middle of the saddle and crack a whip, or stand up there, most folks don’t understand why do you stand

up in the saddle? Why do they do that? Folks don’t know why, and the reason why is the old buckaroos

the bronc busters they were done with their mule building a foundation; not having the mule trained

but building a foundation. He was done as far as a foundation goes, now we’ll use him on a daily basis

and now you are training. A foundation builds on the basics. But the training comes after the

foundation has been built. See where I am coming from? Most folks’ say he’s trained, I believe the

word needs to be foundation, so going back, you know this mule has been-there-done that, I don’t want

to hear that. You know ‘this mule anybody can ride’, no such thing! Anybody can sit the mules at the

Grand Canyon, anybody can sit there but that’s not riding. Riding is communicating and using your voice

and legs and seat. This is me saying that; professionals in the equine world they’re going to say the

same thing: voice, hands, legs and seat.

CKR: That is so true and that is a learning curve when you are working around mules. So, Steve if a

mule has been sold several times, is this necessarily a bad thing?

Steve: Well it can be a bad thing, because what happens is, each time the mule learns one more thing

that could not be so good. What I mean by that is, somebody that inappropriately pulls on a mule; he

was leading the mule, all of a sudden the mule hesitated or stopped, rather than give him a sharp bump

in going to the right or left, they pulled on the mule. Well the mule learned that day, that he can get his

way and the next day it happened again and the next day; each time a little stronger and guess what,

one day that mule jerks that rope outa of your hand and he’s gone. Well it all began the first day when

you pulled. So in other words, somebody says I can’t do anything with this mule and take it to sell; now

the mule has a bunch of small bad habits that end up becoming a big bad habit as it goes along.

CKR: Why do you think a mule can be sold several times? Is it just from him learning these tricks or

learning bad habits from people and getting the best of the next guy, do you think that is the reason a

mule can be sold several times during his life?

Steve: Oh yeah, I had a mule trader tell me one time, there’s a mule for everybody. They will tell you,

‘Hey, if you don’t like that mule, you bring him back and I’ll give you another’ and another and another.

It keeps on going. One of my favorite tricks is, ‘I will send him home with you for 30 days, go ahead take

him home, if you don’t like him, bring him back.’ Well sure, you’re going to find several holes in him,

you know, just like in the rider’s life, they’re not perfect and the mule, darn sure isn’t perfect. And he

will do just fine so long as he gets in one behind the other; then you‘re a train you’re not riding, you’re

sitting one in behind the other. Most folks don’t realize that going up a trail you want at least two

lengths from the tail of a mule to the nose of a mule, but we just allow the mule to go where ever he

wants to go pretty soon the mule understands that he can do whatever he wants to do and now what

do we have? We’ve got a mule we can’t control on the trail.

CKR: In marketing the mule overall, for the success of the mule, what do you suggest? How can we sell

the image of the mule and make sure that he’ll be successful in the future?

Steve: Well for the most part, the mule has a pretty good image, people say they are sure-footed, they

are easy to feed; you know a lot of assets that people think are correct. Unfortunately we put the mule

in that pail and say all mules are like this. Well when it comes to being easy keepers, there are some

mules that are not easy keepers, they are horrible! They’re out all the time and you end up feeding it a

lot of stuff. So going back to it, the best way to sell a mule is to take the person and [let]them work with

the mule and if that mule is not getting along with them, [during]that first hour and half, two hours,

we’re done. I cannot tell you just this week alone, I have talked to 5 or 6 people that have gone from

horses to mules. By the way here’s a compliment for Cindy Roberts: A guy called me from Oklahoma,

he’s been a quarter horseman all his life, he’s got cuttin’ horses and he’s also a pasture of a church there

in Choctaw. He told me that his boy got a book and said ‘read this book, this book will help you.’ I can’t

remember which book it was but it was one of Cindy Roberts’ books. He said, ‘man I have learned a lot,

I didn’t even think that training from the ground would be the best way to go. We do it from the horse,

from the saddle.’ I know a lot of horsemen that are going to the mules; this guy was 72 years old and

this guy was thinking he’d be safer on the mule and he was reading [about] the difference. Going back,

as far as marketing goes, they’ve already got a pretty good marketing deal; unfortunately everybody is

cookie cutting the same information and so everybody is says, ‘Ok I bought the mule now and I’m gonna

be safe’, and people are relying on that fact when what we need to do is train the individual. That is why

I quit training mules a long time ago. People [would] call me up thirty days later and say this mule is not

doing so and so. I tell them bring the mule back, I climb back on him and the mule does just fine. Well

what happened? Your communication skills need to be better! So how to better market them, honesty

is one thing and the other thing is teach the person. The last mule I sold, Cindy is a mule that bucked and

ran off with the trainers; put three trainers in the hospital, her name was Reba. That lady spent $5000

for that mule and called me up from California ‘can I come and bring my trainer to work with you’ and I

said sure. So they come and spent the weekend with me and we had a saddle issue, a bridle issue, a pad

issue and things like this; you can see the mule humping up. I brought it to her trainer’s attention and

he said the mule was cold-backed. I said no, you got the front cinch too tight and it is putting too much

pressure on the 7th rib, watch when I do this! I loosened up the cinch and the back of the saddle came

down! Of course she was riding in a horse saddle with one cinch. I said you see that? The mule feels

much better, look at the head drop and look at the nose drop. So we’ve got a pressure problem. So then

I went and changed [tack], put my saddle on, you can see the mule change. I then put my bridle on and

we did some ground work for about the next day and a half – we worked a couple of hours. To make a

long story short, I said don’t put your saddle on, go with the mule, they bought my saddle and rig and

everything was doing fine. This person called me back two weeks later that owned the mule and said

‘hey I am going to put this mule down,’ I said don’t do that! That’s a nice mule! What happened? She

said, ‘this mule put my trainer in the hospital, the saddle went over his neck.’ Not my saddle! No, she

wanted to use her saddle on the mule; so the mule reacted to the pressure and bucked her off! The lady

says, ‘then I will give you the mule. I said, Ma’am, I don’t have time to come to California to come get

that mule. She says, ‘I will bring you that mule tomorrow.’ And she brought me that mule. A couple of

months later I was working at my ranch roping calves with that mule, uh pushing cows with that mule,

doing work with that mule, and I sold that mule about 2 ½ years later. A lady called me up and said ‘do

you have any mules for sale’, I said no ma’am I don’t sell mules. She says, ‘I am looking for a mule with

yaddi-yaddi-yadah’ and I then said you sound like a nice lady and all, do you mind coming to Arizona and

spending a week with me? She said, ‘no problem.’ Does $12,000 bother you? She says, ‘I don’t mind

spending the money.’ So I then sold that mule to her. The mule just loved her, the mule responded

good to her, and uh she did good! What’s even better, my top apprentice, Sue White lived in Iowa and

they were within 100 miles [of each other] and she didn’t mind driving over to work with Sue to further

her education. So going back to this, it’s the education part, because the mule looks bad when people

go to ride them even though they’re a good mule it’s their inability and so therefore ‘it’s the mule’s

fault’ and it’s not the mule’s fault.

Figure 3 Steve Edwards demonstrating how mule owners can work effectively in training their mules.

“How do you fix it? Work with the people and that’s what I’m doin’ now.”

[Steve Edwards can be reached through his web site: www.muleranch.com and by phone 602-999-

6853.]

[Author Cindy K Roberts can be reached at cindy@everycowgirlsdream.com or through her website at

www.everycowgirlsdream.com, her latest book release is The Mule Behavior Problem Solver.]