pel€¦ · bof hervat. nog onder eed thank you very much, my lord , for that opportunity. on my...

61
'. IN DIE HOOGGEREGSHOF VAN SUID -AFRIKA (APPeLAFDELING) In die saak tussen - NCIMBITHI JOHNSON LUBISI Eerst e Ap pellant PETRUS TSEPO MASHIGO Tweede A ppellant NAPHTALI MANANA Derde Appellant en DIE STAAT Respondent , A P PEL TEEN DIE SKULDIGBEVINDINGS EN VONNISSE VAN SY EDELE REGTER J .• p.• 0.• DE VILLIERS GELEWER IN DIE HOOGGEREG SHOF VAN SUID- AFR I KA (TRAN SVA A LSE PROVINSI A LE AFDELI N G) OP 17 1980. NAMENS APP ELLANTE: PRISCILLA J A NA & ASSOCIATES, 2de Vloer, A bbey Huis, Commissionerstraat, JOHANNESBURG. WEBBER & NEWDIGATE, Maitlandstr a at 136, BLOEMFONTE IN . VOLUME 9 NAMENS RESPONDENT: DIE PROKUREUR-GENERAAL, PRETORIA. DIE PROKUREUR - GENERAAL, BLOEMFONTEIN. (bl. 710 -794)

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Page 1: PEL€¦ · BOF HERVAT. nog onder eed Thank you very much, My Lord , for that opportunity. On my instructions at present I cannot object to the admissibility of this statement. (20

'.

IN DIE HOOGGEREGSHOF VAN SUID-AFRIKA

(APPeLAFDELING)

In die saak tussen -

NCIMBITHI JOHNSON LUBISI Eerst e Appellant

PETRUS TSEPO MASHIGO Tweede Appellant

NAPHTALI MANANA Derde Appellant

en

DIE STAAT Respondent

, A P PEL

TEEN DIE SKULDIGBEVINDINGS EN VONNISSE VAN SY EDELE REGTER

J .• p .• 0 .• DE VILLIERS GELEWER IN DIE HOOGGEREG SHOF VAN SUID-

AFR I KA (TRAN SVAALSE PROVINSI ALE AFDELI NG) OP 17 NOVE~1BER

1980.

NAMENS APPELLANTE:

PRISCILLA J ANA & ASSOCIATES, 2de Vloer, Abbey Huis, Commissionerstraat, JOHANNESBURG.

WEBBER & NEWDIGATE, Maitlandstraat 136, BLOEMFONTE IN .

VOLUME 9

NAMENS RESPONDENT:

DIE PROKUREUR-GENERAAL, PRETORIA.

DIE PROKUREUR - GENERAAL, BLOEMFONTEIN.

(bl. 710 -794)

Page 2: PEL€¦ · BOF HERVAT. nog onder eed Thank you very much, My Lord , for that opportunity. On my instructions at present I cannot object to the admissibility of this statement. (20

I N D E K S

VOLUME 9

Gert VISSER (vervo1g)

Andries Petrus TERBLANCHE ----------------

Gert VISSER ------------------------------

Monty Conroy MOLLENTZE

Johannes. Abraham VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

BLADSY

710 - 730

730 - 738

739

740 - 741

741 - 794

Page 3: PEL€¦ · BOF HERVAT. nog onder eed Thank you very much, My Lord , for that opportunity. On my instructions at present I cannot object to the admissibility of this statement. (20

K64 t'

- 710 -

HOF HERV AT OM 10hOC OF 4 SEPTEMBER 1980 .

GERT VISSER, nog onder eed

ONDERVRAGING DEUR MNR. JANSEN (vervolg) Lui tenant, voordat

die hof gister verdaag het, het u getuig dat op 29

Januarie beskuldigde nr. 5 deur adjudant-offisier Van der

Westhuizen na die veiligheidskantore hier te Pretoria

gebring is? -- Dit is korrek.

En dat u opgemerk het dat by n soortgelyke trui as

beskuldigde nr. 4 aangehad het ten tye van beskuldigde

nr. 4 se arrestasie? -- Dit is korrek . (10

Wat het u toe gedoen? -- Ek het na adjudant-offisier

Van der Westhuizen se kantoor gegaan waar beskuldigde

nr. 5 aangehou is deur hom. Ek het myself aan beskuldigd e

nr. 5 voorgeste1. Op hierdie stadium het adjudant­

offisier Van der Westhuizen aan my meegedeel dat beskul-

digde nr. 5 sy samewerking reeds aan hom gegee het . Ek

het adjudant-offisier Van der Westhuizen toe versoek am

In s ekere foto aan my te gee .

DEUR DIE HOF: Bewysstuk?

MNR. J ANSEN ~ Nee, di t is nie In bewysstuk nie. - - Ek

het die foto aan beskuldigde nr . 5 getoon .

Wie se foto was dit? -- Dit was beskuldigde nr . 4 ,

(20

se foto. Hy het aan my meegedeel dat hy hom ken as Simon

Mboyeni . Hy het oak aan my meegedeel dat hulle dieselfde

dag die land binnegekom het .

MR . BROWDE: May I just point out something with regard

to this evidence? It is my submission that that is not

admissible against accused no . 4. I would just want to

make that clear and I want to argue at a later stage .

BY THE COURT

MR. BROWDE :

It cannot be .

It cannot be on any basis .

. .. / MR . JANSEN

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, \

- 711 - VISSER

I concede that. MR . JANSEN

BY THE COURT It is only, as I take it, that he, accused

no. 5, knows accused no. 4 and nothing further and that

he came into the country with accused no. 4. Accused

no. 4 can come along and say it is not so.

MR. BROWDE: That is not evidence that accused no. 4 came

into the country with accused no. 5.

BY THE COURT! Exactly and it is not evidence against

accused no. 5.

MR. BROWDE ~ I thought that this is the right time to (10

raise it.

MNR. JANSEN: Wat het u verder gedoen? -- Ek het toe die

terroriste foto-album wat in die polisie se besit is,

geneem.

Di t is In foto-album wat onder die polisie bekend is

as die terroriste-album? -- Dit is korrek.

Ja? -- Ek het die boek oopgemaak op die bladsy waar

foto's M856 tot M873 voorkom . Ek het aan beskuldigde

nr . 5 gevra of hy enige van die persone ken . Op so In

bladsy is daar 18 foto's.

DEUR DIE HOF: So, in totaal het u hom 18 foto's gewys?

(20

Di t is korrek. Hy het to~ aan my In foto M859 ui tgewys .

Hy het aan my meegedeel dat hierdie persoon aan hom bekend

is as Zindile. Die persoon se name volgens die register

is Fanie Stephen Mafoko .

MNR . JANSEN: Ek wil h~ u moet kyk na BEWYSSTUK A(3).

Daarop verskyn 'n grater en In kleiner foto . Wie se foto' s

is dit? - - Dit is die betrokke persoon, Fanie Stephen

Mafoko se foto .

MR . BROWDE: I am sorry to interrupt again . I have not (30

had instructions on this at all, on this conversation

... / between

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- 712 - VISSER

between this witness and accused no. 5 . I do not know

whether what has been said was f reely and voluntarily

said or not. I do not know what the position is and

before this - because this is not a pointing out. This

is statements made by accused no. 5. I do not know what

preceded it and I would like to take instructions on that

before anything further is said about this.

BY THE COURT Let me put it this way. The damage has

already been done. Would you like a short adjournment?

MR. BROWDE Yes, if Your Lordship pleases. (10

MR. JANSEN I just want to indicate that I definitely

told My Learned Friend about this evidence that I was

going to lead yesterday after the adjournment.

BY THE COURT: I will accept that. Whatever Mr. Browde

says, he would not ask me for an adjournment just to get

me out of Court for a short while.

BOF VERDAAG.

GERT VISSER,

MR . BROWDE :

GETUIE STAAN AF.

BOF HERVAT.

nog onder eed

Thank you very much, My Lord , for that

opportunity. On my instructions at present I cannot

object to the admissibility of this statement.

(20

OIDERVRAGING DEUR MNR . JANSEN (vervolg) : Luit enant, die

foto wat op BEWYSSTUK AiL) verskyn of daar verskyn twee

foto's, n groter foto en n kleiner foto . Die kleiner foto ,

hoe vergelyk dit in grootte met die foto wat deur beskul­

digde nr. 5 aan u uitgewys is? -- Dit is die identiese

grootte.

Wat het verder gebeur? -- Ek het die boek weer oop­

gemaak op die bladsye waar foto's M892 tot M909 voorkom . (30

By het toe n foto aan my uitgewys M903 en aan my ges~ dat

/ die

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- 713 -

die per soon aan hom bekend is as J ohn.

As wie is die persoon aan u bekend? -- By is aan my

bekend as Wilfred Madela.

Ek wil h~ u moet kyk na BEWYSSTUK A(6) , di e kl einer

foto. Is dit die identiese foto as wat u getoon h et aan

beskuldigde? -- Dit is korrek.

Ja? -- Ek het die betrokke boek weer oopgemaak op

die bladsye waar foto'$ M910 tot M927 voorkom. Beskul­

digde nr. 5 het aan my foto M925 uitgewys en ges~ hy ken

hom as Matue. (10

Ek wil h~ u moet kyk na BEWYSSTUK A(l), die kleiner

foto daar OPe Hoe vergelyk dit met die foto wat deur die

beskuldigde aan u uitgewys is? -- Dit is die identiese

f oto . Die betrokke persoon is aan my bekend as Humphrey

Makhubo . Versko on t og , ni e aan my bekend nie, maar vol­

gens d ie lys van f ot o' s .

Het u di e beskuldi gde g evr a waar hy hulle vandaan

ken? -- Ja . Beskuldi gd e nr. 5 het aan my gese dat hull e

saam i nG&-Rankuwa of naby Ga-Rankuwa gewoon het .

Het die beskuldi gd e al hierdie mededelings aan u (20

vr ywilliglik g emaak? -- Heeltemal vrywilliglik .

Bet u hom daarna ge10s in die sorg van adjudant­

off i sier' Van der We s t hui zen vir verdere ondervraging?

Di t i s korrek .

Lat er gedurend e die middag het ad judant-of fisier Van

der Westhui zen n v erdere rapport a an u g emaak? -- Dit is

korrek .

En as gevolg van die r apport het u In versoek aan

b eskuldigd e nr . 5 gerig? --Dit is korrek .

Wat het u h om g evr a? -- Ek het hom g evr a om di e (30

plek waar hy s ou gewoon het naby Ga-Rankuwa aan my t e

... / gaan

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- 714 -

gaan uitwys .

En was die beskuldigde bereid daartoe? - - Ja .

Wat het toe gebeur? -- Die nag van die 29ste is ek

saam met (Hof kom tussenbei)

DEUR DIE HOF ~ Die 29ste wat? -- 29 Januarie 1980 is ek

onder bevel van ko1one1 Van Rensburg vergese1 van kaptein

Ne1 en verskeie ander lede van die veiligheidstak, na

Ga-Rankuwa . .

MNR. JANSEN ~ Was beskuldigde nr. 5 ook teenwoordig?

Beskuldigde nr. 5 was ook teenwoordig. In Ga-Rankuwa (10

het ons by die veiligheidspolisie van Bophuthatswana aan­

gesluit. Ons is die nag vanaf hierdie kantore per motor

tot aan die einde van Zone 16 in Ga-Rankuwa. Dit is aan

die westekant van Zone 16, waarvandaan ons in n westelike

rigting gestap het, terwyl beskuldigde nr. 5 aan ons die

rigting aangedui het.

Is dit in die veld daar? -- Dit is in die veld in .

Dit was ook gedurende die nag.

Hoe laat omtrent? Dit was enigiets vanaf een- tot

twee-uur die nag. Ons het die nag nie die plek gekry (20

nie . Na ongeveer In uur en In half se stap het ons bes1ui t

om te wag totdat dit ligdag is . Beskuldigde nr . 5 het

ons toe verder die berg ingeneem . Hy het aan ons In plek

ui tgewys wat duidelik In basis is .

Ek wil h~ u moet kyk na die foto-album , BEWYSSl'UK AC .

DEUR DIE HOF! Hierdie sal dan basis 2 wees .

M1~ . JANSEN: Kyk na foto 11 daar . Punt C op foto 11

en punt C op foto 12, wat is dit? - - Dit is dieselfde

punte en dit is waar die basis gevind is .

Uit watter rigting is hierdie foto's geneem? - - (30

Hierdie foto's is in In westelike rigting geneem, die

.. . / rigting

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..

. ,

- 715 - VISSER

rigting waarin ons gestap het .

U s ~ u he t daar n basis aangetref. Kan u di e basi s

aan die Hof beskryf? Wat was dit gewees, hoe het dit

gelyk? -- Dit was n oop stuk grond wat dig toegerank is .

Daar was n karton papiere en OU koerante op die grond uit ­

gepak waarop n mens vermoedelik kon geslaap het . Daar

het hee1wat b1ikkies en bottels rondge1~ .

U s~ die plek was toegerank. Was daar dele wat u

kon s~ mure gewees deur plante of borne of iets anders?

Die westelike kant was daar n rots, bykans n 100dregte (10

rots en die voorkant was toegerank.

Dit wil s~ die oostekant? -- Dit is korrek.

Die sykante? -- Die sykante was ook heeltemal toege-

rank .

Ek wil h~ u moet kyk na foto 13 van BEWYSSTUK AC .

Wat dui die foto aan? - - Dit is die ingang na hi erdie

basis.

Foto's 14 en 15? - - Foto's 14 en 15 toon di e oop

stuk binne-in die bos wat ek aangetoon het waar die koe-

rant e en kartonne sigbaar was . (20

DEUR DIE HOF : Dit is aan die bi nnekant van die basis?

Dit is aan die binnekant .

Wie sit hierso? - - Beskuldigde nr . 4 sit daar .

MNR . JANSEN Foto 16? -- Di t is ook die bi nnekant van

die basis .

Wat het toe gebeur toe beskuldigde nr . 5 u daar aan­

gebring het? - - Beskuldigde nr . 5 het ons na ongeveer 2

meter bokant hierdie basis wat ek hi er aangetoon het op

foto's 14 en 15 geneem na n skeur .

n Skeur in die rots? - - Dit is korrek . Die skeur (30

word aangetoon op foto's 18 en 19 .

. .. / Foto

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- 716 - VISSER

Foto nr. 18, is di t naby of In ver foto? -- Di t is

net eint1ik geneem reg onder foto 19 .

Was u teenwoordig toe die foto's geneem is? -- Nee.

En foto nr. 19? -- Toon die werklike skeur.

Hoe diep is die skeur in die rotse? -- Ek sal skat

5 tot 6 voet.

Beskuldigde het toe die skeur aan u uitgewys. Wat

het u daar gevind? -- In hierdie skeur het ek In groot

hoeveelheid artikels aangetref.

Ret u beslag gel~ op die artikels en dit hier na u (10

kantoor gebring? -- Dit is korrek.

Het u al die artikels uitgestal en gefotografeer? -­

Dit is korrek.

Verskyn die artikels in die album BEWYSST~ AB vanaf

foto's 3 tot 22? -- Dit is korrek.

Op Bladsye 3 tot 22 onderskeidelik? -- Dit is korrek.

Kan u di t nou net aan die Hof verduidelik, asseblief?

Ek het die artikels in my kantoor sistematies deursoek

terwyl In fotograaf teenwoordig was en hy het foto' s geneem

soos die ondersoek aangegaan het. Foto 3 toon vyf pak- (20

kette waarvan vier verse~l is in plastiek . Na ek hierdie

foto geneem het, het ek hierdie artikels indiwidueel onder­

soek . Foto 4 toon die pakket wat op foto 3 as A aangedui

word. Ek het dit oopgemaak en binne-in vyftig milit~re

springdoppies gevind wat in watte verpak was. Hierdie

springdoppies was in In sigaardosie.

Is dit die sigaardosie hier voor die Hof - ek sal

hom noem BEWYSSTUK 17(A) . -- Dit is korrek. Binne-in die

sigaardosie is die naam Habana made in ,Havana Cuba. Die

dosie was ook met maskeerlint vasgedraai en op die mas- (30

keerlint was die volgende aangestip "Blasting caps no. 8

... / (50)

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- 717 - VISSER

(50 ) " Ek het di e pakket op foto nr . 3 wat gemerk is B

ondersoek en dit verskyn op fo t o nr . 5 . In die pak het

ek t i en elektriese springdoppies asook s ewe handgranaat­

ontstekers gevind . Dit was ook in n s i gaar doo s met die

naam Partagas, as ek dit reg uitspreek "made in Havana,

Cuba . " Hierdie pakkie was verselH met f oel ie en ma skeer­

lint en op die maskeerlint het gestaan "Det onators".

Dit sal wees BEWYSSTUK 17(B). Het u ook verder pakkie C

op foto 3 ondersoek? -- Di t is korrek . Die inhoud daarvan

verskyn op foto 6 . Die inhoud het bestaan uit s estien (10

200 gram blokke TNT . TNT is n plofstof .

Hoe was dit v erpak? - - Dit was ook in f oelie met mas­

keerlint, asook waterdigte papier, hierdi e "wax- wrap" .

Het u ook pakkie g emer k D op f oto 3 onders oek? -- Di t

is korrek .

DEUR DIE HOF Ek aanvaar dit is nie hierso nie? Die

TNT is nie voor die Hof nie ? -- Nee .

Die pakkies, is hulle voor die Hof? -- Van hulle is

bier voor die Hof .

HOF AAN MNR . J ANSEN ~ Gaan u hulle insit of nie ? (2 0

MNR . JANSEN : Ek h et part y . Hi erdie afgelope een dien

geen spesifieke doel nie. Ek gee dit nie in nie . Di6

wat ek ingee sal ek duidelik aan die Hof noem .

DEUR DIE HOF Toe het u g ekyk na pakkie D? Pakkie D

soos verskyn op foto 7. In die pakki e .was 3 meter veilig­

heidslont .

MNR . J ANSEN Ook in foelie toegedraai? -- Foelie, watte

sowel a s plas tiek .

Met maskeerlint ? -- Dit is korrek . Die kleur van

hierdie veiligheidslont i s swart . ( 30

Het u ook die pakkie E op f ot o 3 onders oek? -- Di t

... / i s

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- 718 - VISSER

is korrek .

Wat was die inhoud? -- Die pakkie het bestaan uit

38t meter knallont, groen van kleur.

DEUR DIE ROF ! U verwys nou na foto 8? Dit is korrek .

Wat is die lengte? -- 38t meter, donkergroen van

kl eur.

MNR. JANSEN! U het toe verder ondersoek ingestel na die

pakket wat u in die skeur gekry het? -- Dit is korrek.

Op foto 9 verskyn nog twee artikels.

Wat u ook gemerk het A en B? -- Dit is korrek. (10

Ret u A ondersoek? -- Ja.

A op foto 9? -- A op foto 9 word getoon op foto 10

wat die inhoud daarvan was. Daar is sewe RG-42 handgra­

nate gevind.

Dit is offensiewe handgranate? -- Dit is korrek .

Ret u die inhoud van pakkie B op foto 9 nagegaan?

Dit is korrek . Foto 11 toon hierdie pakkie B. Dit

was slegs In le~ blik . Op hi erdie blik was daar op mas­

keerlint aangebring "Detonators".

Ret u die inhoud van die skeur toe verder ondersoek?(20

Dit is korrek . Dit was In donkerbruin sak .

Is dit die artikels op foto 12? -- Dit is korrek .

Op die foto verskyn n hoeveelheid klerasie, drie Swaziland

reisdokumente. Daar was ook drie verse~lde pakki es wat

ek op die foto A, B en C gemerk net .

DEUR DIE ROF: Dit kan nie gesien word op foto 12 nie?

Ja, dit kan baie dof gesi en word A, B en C daar .

Soos my een assessor se, as In mens weet waar om te

kyk . Kan u vir ons s~ waar om te kyk? -- Die verse~lde

pakkies reg bokant hulle het ek so In vierkantige etiket (30

neergesit en daarop is A, B en C.

. .. / 0, ja

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- 719 VISSER

0, ja . Met ander woorde hierdie drie etikette wat

aan die onderkant van die foto is? Dit is korrek.

Daar is ook In blou plastieksak met In hoeveelheid rondtes

ammunisie. Twee AK-bajonette wat ook verse~l was met

foe1ie en maskeer1int. Links van hierdie twee verse~lde

baj onette is daar In verdere p1astiese sak waar ook rond tes

ammunlsle in was. MNR. JANSEN -:

Was a1 die artikels in die bruin 8ak wat op die foto

verskyn? -- Dit is korrek.

Op foto 13 is die artikels oopgepak? Ja, behalwe(lO

die drie verse~lde pakkies is nog verse~l en word nog

steeds aangetoon met die letters A, B en O.

DEUR DIE HOF . . Met ander woorde, u het nou op foto 12

na net In sekere aantal van die goed verwys? -- Dit is kor­

rek.

Ja? -- Op foto 13 is die ammunisie oop sigbaar. Daar

is 273 rondtes 7 . 62 x 9 mID ammunisie g evind, asook 46

rondtes 9 mm ammunisi e, 9 mm kort ammuni s i e .

MNR . JANSEN ~ Waarvoor word die onderskeie ammunisie

gebruik? -- Die 7 . 62 ammunisie word deur die AK-gewere (20

gebruik en di e 9 mID kort d eur die Makarov- pi stool .

Ek wil h~ u moet kyk na BEWYSSTUK 17(0) . Wat word

daarin aangetoon? -- Die artike1s hier in is die artikels

wat oop is op foto 13 .

Dit is di e twee bajonette sowel as die ammunisie? - -

Dit is korrek .

Ek wil h~ u moet nou kyk na die reisdokumente . Die

reisdokumente hier voor die Hof. -- Die een is reeds inge-

handig.

Is dit di e reisdokument, BEWYSSTUK A(5) hier? -- (30

Dit is korrek .

. . . / Wie

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- 720 - VISSER

Wie se foto en- naam verskyn daarin? -- Die foto in

die reisdokument is die van Fanie St ephen Mafoko .

En die naam? -- Die naam in die reisdokument is Samuel

F. Mkhonta.

Het u die reisdokument ondersoek? -- Ek het die reis­

dokument ondersoek.

Wat is opvallend daar in? -- Die .reisdokument is

heelwat gebruik oor en weer die grens vanaf Swaziland.

Ek kan miskien net die laaste drie stempels aan die Hof

uitlees. Die stempel toon dat hy by Oshoek op 20/10/79 (10

die land binnegekom het en op 24/10/79 weer vertrek het.

Hier is n verdere stempel wat toon dat hy die land binne­

gekom het op 27/9/79 en op 11/10/79 weer vertrek het. Die

laaste stempel in die reisdokument toon dat hy op 8/12/79

by Oshoek Grenspos die land binnegekom het .

Het u die ander reisdokumente ondersoek? -- Dit is

korrek.

Die eerste een van die twee? -- Die eerste een toon

die foto van beskuldigde nr. 5 met die name Ben M. Sime-

lane. (20

Het u ook die reisdokument ondersoek? -- Dit is kor-

rek.

Wat was opvallend daar in? -- Opvallend van hierdie

reisdokument is slegs die laaste inskrywing of stempel

in hom van 8/12/79 binnekoms by Oshoek Grenspos .

Is daar slegs die een geval waar hy die Republiek

binnegekom het met die reisdokument? -- Bier is verskeie

stempels in hierdie boek.

Kan u vir die Hof 'n aanduiding gee? Tel hoeveel

stempels is daar waar hy die Republiek ingekom of verlaat(30

het? -- Daar is vier stempels .

. .. /DEUR

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- 721 - VISSER

DEUR DIE HOF ~ Gee hulle maar. Die vervolger wil

gr aag h~ dat u hulle vir ons gee. -- Ek sal hulle gee.

Daar is te Oshoek die grens binneg~kom op 19/6/75 en

vertrek op 24/6/75. Die volgende een toon n binnekoms

op 1/11/77 te Houtkop Grenspos en n vertrek op 11/11/77

ook te Houtkop Grenspos. Die volgende een toon In binne­

koms te Houtkop Grenspos op 25/3/78 en n vertrek te Hout­

kop Grenspos op 27/3/78. Die volgende stempel toon In

binnekoms op 20/5/78 te Houtkop Grenspos en In vertrek op

24/5/78 te Houtkop Grenspos . (10

MNR . JANSEN! En dan die laaste een wat hy op 8/12/79 wat

hy by Oshoek die land binnegekom het? -- Dit is korrek.

Die reisdokument sal wees BEWYSSTUK AD .

GETUIE STAAN AF .

HOF VERDAAG. HOF HERV AT.

GERT VISSER , nog onder eed

ONDERVRAGIID DEUR MNR. JANSEN (vervolg); Lui tenant, u

het verder nog In reisdokument ontdek daar? -- Di tis kor-

rek .

Is dit di e reisdokument BEWYSSTUK AE? -- Dit is ( 20

h ierdie reisdokument.

Wie se foto verskyn daarin? -- Die foto hierop is .

die foto van beskuldigd e nr. 4 .

In wie se naam is die dokument uitgemaak? -- Dit is

uitgereik aan Sipo Dhlamini.

Het u ook die reisdokument ondersoek? -- Dit "is kor-

rek .

Wanneer is di e eerste stempel daarop aangebring as

synde n stempel waar ~ie land of verlaat of binnegekom

is? -- Dit toon aan 23 Desember 1969 .

Waar? Of kan u d i t nie uitmaak nie? -- Nee, ek kan

. .. / ongelukki g

(30

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- 722 - VISSER

ongelukkig nie uitmaak waar is dit nie .

DEUR DIE ROF -: In of ui t? -- Hier is In vertrek van

21/1/70.

Nee, u het nou 23/12/69. -- Ja.

Is dit in of uit die land uit? -- Dit kan ek nie uit­

maak nie.

Gaan na die tweede een? -- Dan is daar In vertrek

21/1/70.

MNR. JANSEN! Ons sal tot oormere besig was as u alles

moet uitlees. Ret u getel hoeveel stempels daar is waar(10

die persoon met die reisdokument die land binnegekom het

en verlaat het? -- Ja, hier is 26 stempels van inkom en

26 van uitgaan.

Wat is die laaste stempel wat daarop aangebring is?

Die laaste stempel is 8/12/79.

DEUR DIE ROF ~ In? -- Binnekoms by Oshoek Grenspos.

MNR . JANSEN ~ Dit is diese1fde stempel as wat aangebring

is in BEWYSSTUK .AD van beskuldigde nr . 5? -- Ja .

En by die reisdokument waarin die foto ... -- Van

Fanie Stephen Mafoko voorkom .

Dit is korrek, A(5)? -- Dit is korrek .

Dit sal dan wees BEWYSSTUK AE . Ret u toe nou die

pakket wat u gemerk het A op foto 12 ond ersoek? -- Dit is

korrek . Die inhoud daarvan verskyn op foto 14 .

Wat is dit? -- Die foto toon ook ... (Rof kom tussen-

bei)

DEUR DIE ROF ~ Dit is A, B en C waarvan u praat? -- Dit

is korrek .

MNR . JANSEN Ja? - - Die foto toon ~ dosie asook die

plastiek waarmee die pakkie verse~l was .

Sloans Liniment- dosie? -- Dit is korrek .

.. . / Wat

(30

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• K65

- 723 - VISSER ---

Wat was binne- in die dosie? - - Binne- in di e dosie

het ek gevind vier PM3 9 volt batterye, asook vier e1ek-

troniese tydskake1aars.

Is dit hierdie artike1s BEWYSSTUK 17 voor die Hof?

Dit is korrek. Ek kan net meld dat een van hierdie

e1ektroniese tydskakelaars beskadig is deur tegniese

personee1 wat dit verder ondersoek het.

U het dit oorhandig aan kaptein Helberg? -- Kaptein

Helberg.

Van die veiligheidstak, hoofkantoor, Pretoria? -- (10

Dit is korrek.

Vir ondersoek? -- Dit is korrek.

Dit is BEWYSSTUK 17(D). Is foto 15 n vergroting van

een van die elektroniese tydskake1aars? -- Dit is korrek.

Het u ook die pakket gemerk B op foto 12 ondersoek?

Dit is korrek.

Ja? - - Foto 16 toon die inhoud daarvan . Daar is

nege blokkies 200 gram TNT gevlnd, ook soos op die foto

aangetoon, verpak in foelie en plastiek .

Die pakket gemerk C op foto 12, het u dit onder-

soek? -- Ja. Die inhoud daarvan verskyn op foto 17 .

Wat is dit? -- Dit is 160 rondtes 7 . 62 x 39 rom

ammunisie.

Agt pakkies van 20 elk? -- Dit is korrek .

Is dit hierdie BEWYSSTUK 17(E) v~~r die Hof? -- Di t

i s korrek .

Het u die inhoud van die vonds in di e skeur ver der

ondersoek? -- Ja . Ek het nog In verdere donk erbruin leer-

sak ondersoek.

Is dit die sak wat aangetoon word op foto l8? -- (30

Dit is korrek.

. .. / Wat

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- 724 - VISSER

Wat het u daarin gevind? Ek het In groot hoeveel-

heid klerasie, In pakkie 20 7 .62 x 39 mm rondtes ammunisi e

daarin gevind asook In pakkie waarin 14 rondte s 9 mm kort

ammunisie was.

Die ammunisie word aangedui op foto 18? -- Dit is kor-

rek.

Wat het u nog gevind? Dit is die ammunisie en die

sigaretdosie wat op foto 18 verskyn wat hier ingehandig

word nou as BEWYSSTUK 17 (F). Is dit korrek? -- Dit is kor-

rek. (10

.. Wat het u verder gevind? -- Ek het verder gevind

soos getoon op foto 19, In AKMS-sub-masjiengeweer.

Is dit n nuwe model van die ou AK? -- Dit is korrek.

DEUR DIE HOF ~ Is dit alles gevind binne-in hierdie -

waar is dit alles binne-in gevind? -- Dit is al1es in die

skeur gevind.

Ja, maar is dit in hierdie sak gevind? -- Nee .

Foto 18? Nee . Op foto 18 het ons wat in die

sak was, afgehandel .

U het toe verdere ondersoek ingestel? -- Dit is kor- (20

rek.

Het die geweer net daar los gel~ in die skeur? -­

Dit is korrek. Ek kan net noem dat al hierdie artikels

met In groot stuk plastiek bedek was in die skeur.

MNR . JANSEN ~ Is dit die AKMS- geweer hier BEWYSSTUK 17(F)?

-- Di tis korrek .

DEUR DIE HOF: 17 ( ~) ?

MNR . JANSEN ~ ~). Wat is die nommer daarop? -- Dit

is In 1975 model met nommer 160677 .

DEUR DIE HOF Afkomstig? -- Di t is In Russies vervaar- (30

digde een.

. .. / Wat

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..

·e

725 - VISSER

Wat vuur hy af? Wat is sy grootte? -- Hy vuur n

7.62 x 39 mm patroon af.

MNR. JANSEN ~ Wat het u verder gevind? -- In die skeur

het ek verder gevind, soos aangetoon op ioto 20, In RPG-7

lanseerbuis met toebehore.

Wat was die toebehore? -- Daar is n optiese visier

gevind by hierdie RPG-7.

Is dit die RPG-7 buis hier BEWYSSTUK 17(H)? -- Dit

is korrek. Hierdie wapen is ook in Rusland vervaardig.

MNR. JANSEN AAN HOF ~ Ek sal later deskundige getuienis(lO

hieromtrent aanbied.

Wat het u verder gevind? -- Soos op ioto 21 het ek

n aandrywingsbuis gevind wat gebruik word om die PG-7

granaat aan te dryi.

Wat is dit? -- Die PG-7 granaat word deur die RPG-7

aigevuur . Hy word agter op hierdie PG-7 granaat vasge­

skroef net voordat jy hom afvuur.

Het u ook verder In hoeveelheid klerasie en skoene

gekry wat aangetoon word op ioto 22? -- Dit is korrek .

Die oranje plastieksak wat die artikels op Ie, is waarmee(2o.

al hierdie artikels toegemaak was .

Wat l~ hier links op die foto? Vier s~ilsakke, lyk

dit. Wat is dit? -- Ja. Links onder op die foto is vier

seilsakke . Dit bevat skoonmaakgereedskap vir die AKM­

gewere.

Bier is ook n flits wat u daar gevind het? Dit is

korrek . Vyf pare skoene, drie slaapsakke en toiletware .

Op 30 Januarie 1980 het u sekere artikels vanaf speur­

der- sersant Terblanche ontvang? - - Dit is korrek.

Wat is di t? -- Ek het In AKM- skoonmaakgereedskap- (30

sakkie by hom oorgeneem .

. . . / Is

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- 726 - VISSER

Is di t die s akkie wat op f oto 23 verskyn? - - Dit i s

korrek .

Wat was daarbinne? -- Ek het die sakke ondersoek soos

op foto 24. Ek het daarin gevind drie F- l def ensiewe

handgranate, asook drie handgranaatontstekers . Die hand­

granaatontstekers was apart van hierdie een handgr anaat.

U het al die springstof, veiligheidslont , knallont

en die handgranate vernietig? Dit is korrek .

Die TNT, kan u vir die Hof s~ waarvoor word dit gebruik

en wat is die werkingstrefkrag ensovoorts daarvan? (10

TNT is In mili t~re springstof. Die TNT staan vir trini tro­

toluene en word gebruik om ontploffings te veroorsaak.

Hoe word dit geaktiveer? - - Dit word geaktiveer deur

'n mili tere springdoppie wat weer op sy beurt op verskeie

maniere geakt i veer kan word •

. Soos byvoor beeld? -- Deur In 9 volt battery .

Soos die wat u aanget ref het en v erskyn op f oto nr . 14?

Di t i s korrek . Di t i s natuur l i k el ektries e spring­

do ppies wat di t ak tiveer .

Die veil i gheidslont , waarvoor word dit gebruik? - - (2 0

Dit word gebr ui k om die milit~re spri ngdoppi es te aktiveer o

Die knallont ? -- Knallont op sigself is In plofstof .

Net om weer terug te keer, die knallont verskyn hier

op f oto nr. 8? -- Dit is korrek .

Waar voor word dit g ebruik? -- Dit kan op verskeie

maniere gebr uik word, om byvoorbeeld verskillende lagies

s pringstof gelykt ydig t e l aat ontplof deur dit in series

t e v erbi nd . Di t kan ook om n paal gedr aai word en die

sny- aksie word dan daar deur uit gevoer .

Is daar and er algemene g ebr ui ke daar van? - - Dit i s (3 0

al ,

0 ' 0 / Hierdie

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• K66

- 727 VI SSER

Hi erdie s pri ng stof , veiligheid slont, knallont , hand­

gr anate en die ammunisie, kon u die oor sprong daar van

bepaal? Al hierdie ploistof is van n (meganies e def ek)

oorsprong.

Hierdie elektroniese tydskakelaars soos verskyn op

foto 5 •.• (meganiese defek) aangetref? - - Dit is die

eerste keer wat ek di t by In terroris aangetref het .

DEUR DIE BOF ~ Al die knaldoppies wat u hier genoem het ,

word hulle almal elektries geaktiveer? -- Nie almal nie.

Watter van hierdie wat u na verwys het, word nie (10

elektries geaktiveer nie? -- Op foto 4 verskyn 50 mili­

t~re springdoppies.

Is dit nou net hierdie? -- Bulle word geaktiveer deur

n veiligheidslont wat in hom ingedruk word en dan vasge­

kram word.

Dit weet ek, maar ek wil net vir u vra , is daar van

daar di e veilighei dslont hi er geno em? -- Ja .

Wys dit, assebli ef? -- Op f oto 7 is daar 3 met er

v ei l i gheidslont .

Di t maak ni e saak of In el ektries e springdoppie of (20

In gewone mili t ~re spri ngdoppie i n d ie TNT g es teek word

nie? -- Di t maak geen verskil nie. Bulle i s almal sterk

genoeg .

Die wat u nou net na verwys het, die 50 mili t~re

springd oppies en die vei l i gheidslont , di t moet moet In

vuur houtj ie of iets aangest eek word? -- Ja.

Geen elekt ri si t ei t word g ebr ui k ni e? -- Geen el ek­

t risitei t word gebr ui k ni e.

Is di t nou al van hierdie wat nie el ektrie s geakti-

v eer word nie? -- Dit i s korrek .

Van al hierdie wat u gekr y het? -- Di t i s korrek .

... / u

(30

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- 728 - VISSER ----

U het gepraat van knallont, foto 18. -- Foto 8 .

Foto 8, ekskuus. Dit is elektries? -- Ja , jy kan hom

ook met n gewone militere springdoppie afsit, as jy hom

daaraan vasdraai met maskeerlint.

Gewoonlik elektries of nie? In Mens kan hom op twee

maniere ... (Hof kom tussenbei)

Dit maak nie saak nie? -- Dit maak nie saak nie.

Dan is daar In aspek waaroor ek nie heeltemal sekerheid dat hierdie

het nie. U het aan my gese hierso kan maak of is die wyse ,..

waarop daar verskillende ladings op verskillende tye (10

afgeskiet word? -- Dit is korrek.

Hoe word dit gedoen? -- Hy word uitgerol en op ver-

skillende plekke word TNT daaraan vasgemaak met maskeer-

lint. Hierdie knallont op sigself ontplof. Di t is In

ontploffing wat plaasvind en sy ontploffing sal dan die

TNT aktiveer . Daar is geen branding wat ontstaan nie .

Di t is In ontploffing wat ontstaan by knallont .

Dit is nie die gewone ... -- Veiligheidslont nie.

Dit is nie die gewone veiligheidslont wat brand nie?

Nee. (20

Dit is met ander woorde heeltemal anders as hierdie

foto 7? -- Dit is heeltemal anders. Sy kern bestaan uit

TNT .

Met ander woorde, hy is eintlik In springdoppie, op

sigself? -- Dit is korrek .

Of n springpatroon? Wat noem hulle di t? -- In Spring-

doppie .

BEWYSSTtTK l7(H) RPG-7 lanseerder of lanseerbuis,

watter grootte ammunisie of vuurpyl of wat dit ook al is,

vuur dit af? -- Hy vuur die PG- 7 ... ( Hof kom tussenbei) (30

Net n oomblik . Dit is op foto 20? -- Dit is korrek .

. .. / Hy

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- 729 - VISSER

Hy vuur? -- In PG- 7 ... (Hof kom t ussenbei )

PG-7 granaat? Nee .

Foto 21? -- Foto 20 is In RPG-7 lanseerbuis . By vuur

In PG-7 pro j ektiel af.

Is daar n foto van hom? -- Nee.

Dit is waar ek gefouteer het, want ek was van mening

dat hierdie wat u beskryf het op 21 is die ammuni si e? -­

Dit is slegs die aandrywingsbuis.

Vuur n? Wat vuur hy af? -- In PG-7 projektiel .

Met ander woorde, daar was, in wat u daar gevind (10

het, geen ammunisie vir hierdie RPG-7 nie? -- Geen ammu­

nisie nie .

Foto's 20 en 21, is die lanseerbuis met toebehore

en van di e toebehor e sal nou wees die aandr ywi ngsbui s ,

foto 21? -- Nee. Die toe behore i s op foto 20.

I s hy nou kompl eet op f oto •.. Is daar die RPG- 7

kompleet op f oto 20 behalwe vir sy ammuni s ie? -- Dit i s

korrek .

Nou goed , nou kom ons by f ot o 21. Dit het niks te

do en met foto 20 ni e? -- Nee. (2 0

Di t is n nuw e item? Of 'n and er item? -- Dit is korrek.

Wat i s di t? -- Di t i s In aandrywingsbuis wat agter

op d ie PG- 7 pro j ekt iel vasgeskroef word.

Of granaat? U het verwys na In PG- 7 granaat. I s dit

In pro j ektiel of gr anaat ? -- Pro j ektiel of granaat.

Ja? -- Sander hierdie aandrywingsbuis kan die PG-7

gr anaat nie afgeskiet wor d nie.

Bier i s ni e In PG- 7 gr anaat hier in die f ot o' s nie of

i s daar? -- Bier i s nie in hi erdi e f ot o-album nie.

BOF AAN MNR . JANSEN ~ Gaan u deskundiges roep oar hier- (3 0

di e aspekt e lat er of nie?

... / MNR . JANSEN

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- 730 - VISSER

MNR . JANSEN: Ja, ek het U Edele so meegedeel.

DEUR DIE HOF ~ Dan sal ek later vrae aan daardie getuies

stel. Ek wou net hierdie twee foto's uitmekaar gekry

het. Met ander woorde, foto 21 het niks te doen met

foto 20 nie en di t is In gedeelte van 11 ander wapen? -­

Dit is 11 gedeelte ... (Hof kom tussenbei)

Van In ander wapen? Van die granaat wat deur hier-

die PG-7 afgevuur word. Dit is n gedeelte van sy ammuni-

sie.

Op foto 20? -- Foto 21, is die gedeelte van die (10

ammunisie wat afgevuur word met die RPG-7 soos op foto 20.

Met ander woorde, foto 20 en foto 21 is albei gedeel-

tes van een toestel? -- Dit is korrek.

Ran u vir my die aantal rondtes in totaal ammunisie

gee vir die AK wat u gevind het - dit is seker 11 AK-47?

Dit is korrek.

Die aantal rondtes in totaal van dieammunisie AK- 47

wat u gevind het daar in daardie klipskeur en die aantal

9 mm Sakarov kort ammunisie? -- Makarov .

Makarov. Laat ek dit so stel, ek het die vraag ( 20

nou gevra, want ek is bang ek gaan dit vergeet . U sal dit

Maandag, wanneer u kruisondervra word, daardie feite aan

die Hof gee wanneer u in die getuiebank inkom, want ek

is bang ek vergeet . Ek sal dit vir u gee .

Dit is die totale aantal rondtes 7 . 62 x 39 mm en die

tot ale rondtes kort ammunisie 9 mm. -- Ek sal dit vir u

opt el.

GETUIE STAAN AF .

ANDRIES PETRUS TERBLANCHE, v . o.e . NR . 47

ONDERVRAGING DEUR MNR . JANSEN -: Is u In speurder-sersant(30

in die Suid-Afrikaanse Polisie verbonde aan die veiligheidstak

.. . / hier

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- 734 -

Hoe laat het u ongeveer daar aangekom? Dit is op

30 Januarie? -- Ongeveer twaalfuur die dag .

Ek wil h~ u moet kyk na foto nr. 13. Herken u die

foto? -- Die foto is In entji e weg van die basis af geneem .

Dit dui aan hoe ruig die plek daar was waarin 'die basis

gele~ is.

Foto nr. 14 en 15? -- Op foto's 14 en 15 sit beskul­

digde nr. 4 in die basis. Dit dui aan die kartonne en

koerante wat daar gele het om n vloer te vorm onder hom.

Op foto 15 sit hy met sy rug na die rotswand toe. (10

Is dit die rotswand wat een muur van die basis uitmaak?

Die rotswand vorm In soliede muur aan die agterkant van

beskuldigde nr. 4 waar hy op foto 15 sit.

MNR. JANSEN AAN HOF ~ Hierdie betrokke plek is reeds

ge!dentifiseer deur die vorige getuie as basis 2.

MNR . JANSEN: Kyk na foto 16. Wat dui dit aan? Foto's

16 en 17 dui net nog dele van die basis aan waar daar los

goedere gevind was, onder andere, In motorbui teband, In

01ieb1ikkie ensovoorts.

In Binne- of In bui teband? -- n Binneband.

Punt E op foto 17? -- Punt E op foto 17 is In spi t­

graaf wat so in die bosse gestaan het daarso.

Wat 1~ daar op die klip? Dit is op foto 16? -- n

Tandeborsel en In stukkie seep.

(20

Wat gebeur toe verder? -- Daar het die beskuldigde

opgeklim na 'n plek nou net bokant die basis, In meter of

twee, drie bokant die basis op na n klipskeur toe, foto's

18 en 19. Dit is in die rotse in.

Was u teenwoordig toe die twee foto's geneem is? --

Ek was teenwoordig toe al die foto's geneem is in foto - (30

album, BEWYSSTUK AC.

. .. / Die

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- ' 735 - TERBLANCHE

Die skeur op f oto 18 , i s di t nou In naby fot o of

laat ek di t so stel, fat a 18, is di t In naby f ot o van die

skeur of is dit h foto van verder af geneem? Fot o 18

is In foto verder weg van die skeur af geneem en f ot o 19

is In naby foto.

Beskuldigde het u soontoe geneem? -- Dit is reg . Hy

het voor ons in die skeur ingeklim, omgedraai, hy was

ietwat verbaas en het toe ges~ dat ons ... (Mnr . Jansen

kom tussenbei)

Hy het toe In rapport aan u gemaak? -- Di t is korrek. (10

Wat het hy toe gedoen? -- Beskuldigde nr. 4 het ons

toe geneem na h ander punt nog in die berg, maar ongeveer

2 /300 meter oos van daardie basis.

Ek wil h~ u moet kyk na foto 11. -- Dit is punt D op

f oto 11 .

Wat het u daar gevind? -- Daar het die beskuldi gd e

aan ons In and er grot onder die rotse in ui tgewys ; f ot o 20

i s geneem In entji e weg van die gr ot af . Di t i s In redel i ke

gro t erig e grot , gra t er as die vorige een wat ek reeds

beskr yf het , maar die i ngang was baie beperk . (20

Kyk na f ot o 21 . I s di t In f ot o van die i ngang van die

grot? -- Di t i s korrek .

MNR . JANSEN AAN HOF ': Om die punt t e i dent i f i s eer, s t e l

ek voor ons verwys nou hierna as basi s 3 .

MNR . J ANSEN ~ So, u s ~ fot o 21 i s In f ot o van die i ngang

van basis 3 en fot o 22? -- I s bi nne-in basi s 3 geneem waar

beskuldigd e in die voorgr ond s i t .

Kan u di e Hof meedeel hoe lank i s di e basi s 3? - ­

Hy i s ongeve er 5 met er lank , s ou ek s ~ en ong eveer s o

2 met er moontli k , op die breedste 3 met er breed . (30

DEUR DIE HOF ~ Hoog? -- Hy is ni e bai e hoog nie, ook

... /ongeveer

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.. - 736 - TERBLANCHE

ongeveer 1* meter na It meter toe .-

MNR . JANSEN ~ Kon u regop staan in die basis? - - Ek kon

nie heeltemal regop staan in hom nie.

Hoe lank is u? -- Ek is 2 meter. Net In bietjie onder

die 2 meter.

Wat het u in basis 3 gekry? -- In basis 3 was daar

nie tekens dat daar mense gewoon het soos by die vorige

basis 2 nie, maar daar in die kant van die basis het ons

In oranj e plastiese sak gevind toegedraai en vasgebind.

Kyk foto 23. --Foto 23 dui die plastiese sak aan . (10

voordat ons dit verwyder het.

Ja? -- Dns het die plasties oopgemaak,foto 24. In

die plasties was, onder andere, twee slaapsakke en ver­

skeie ander goedere, onder andere, In verkyker en In AK­

masjiengeweer met In magasyn en patrone.

Die handvatsel van die AK-geweer verskyn op foto 24

en is dit hy wat heeltemal ontbloot l~ op fQto's 25 en

26? -- Dit is korrek.

Is dit die AR, BEWYSSTUK 18, voor die Hof? -- Dit is

die wapen.

18(A). Het u enige merke aan die geweer gevind?

Daar is In merk op die kolf van die wapen ui tgekrap .

Wie het u aandag daarop gevestig? -- Beskuldigde

nr. 4 .

(20

Kan u net die nommer van die geweer aan die Hof uit­

lees, asseblief? -- 160683.

Foto 27, is dit n foto van die verkyker? -- Dit is

korrek.

En op foto 28 verskyn die ander artikels? -- Wat

uitgestel reeds na ons kantoor teruggeneem is . (30

Het u die drie handgranate wat verskyn op foto nr. 28

... / met

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- 737 - TERBLANCHE

met die ontst ekers oorhandig aan luitenant Visser?

Di t is reg .

Is dit die artikels wat verskyn op foto 24 van BEWYS-

STUK AB? Dit is korrek.

DEUR DIE ROP ~ U het eintlik vir hom ook hierdie sak

gegee? -- Nee.

Nie? -- Net die handgranate met die ontstekers en die

proppe.

Waar kom die sak vandaan? Ek het In idee gehad hy het

die sak van hierdie getuie gekry? U moet dit duidelik (10

stel,

MNR. JANSEN AAN ROF ~ Hy het die handgranate gegee. Ek

wil die getuie nou verder oor die sak vra.

MNR . JANSEN ~ Foto 24, BEWYSSTUK AB, is die sak wat u

gekry het in die "half-way"? -- Dit is korrek, waarin die

twee handgranate gewees het .

DEUR DIE ROF ~ Ret u daardi e sak vir iemand gegee om dit

te fotografeer? Ja, die sak is gef otografeer in di e

kantore en ek het die sak, met die handgranate, met die

ontstekers aan luit enant Vi sser g egee. (20

Dit i s wat ek vir u vra . Ek het nou-nou verstaan u

het nie die sak aan hom gegee nie? - - Nee, nee . Alles is

aan hom gegee, maar di e sak het later teruggekom.

Die handgranate was ook daardie - of liewer, waar kom

hi erdie handgranat e vandaan? -- Die twee handgranate was

in die sak gew ee s in die "half-way" en die een was in

plasties toegedraai, ook in die "half-way;' maar weg van

mekaar af .

MNR. JANSEN AAN ROF ~ U sal onthou, daar na is verwys

punte A en B op foto 8 . (30

DEUR DIE ROF Ek wil net duid elikheid hieroor h~. U het

... I In

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r •

- 738 - TERBLANCHE

In plastiese sak, foto 23 , gekry? -- Di t is korrek, In

oranje plast iese sak .

Hoevee1 handgranate was daar in of was daar geen? -­

Nee, daar was geen in nie.

Nou goed, verte1 nou net vir my waar korn hierdi e

handgranate vandaan? Ek weet daardie een was by daardie

een punt gekry by die "half-way". Waar korn die ander twee

vandaan? -- Ook in die "half-way", foto 8, in die sei1sak

agter die boornstam . Punt B op foto 8 . Daar was drie

handgranate altesarne in die "half-way" gevind. (10

U het dit ges~. Ek het dit net nie opge1et nie.

MNR. JANSEN ~ Al die artikels, uitgesluit die handgranate,

die ontstekers en die AK-geweer, is hierdie artikels hier

voor die Hof, BEWYSSTUK 18(B)? -- Dit is die bewysstukke.

En dit is die artikels wat u in basis 3 gevind het? ·

Di t is reg.

GETUIE STAAN AF .

HOF VERDAAG TOT 14hOO.

HOF HERVAT OM 14hOO .

H0;LVERDAAG TOT 8 SEPTEMBER 1980.

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- 739 - VISSER

K67 ROF HERVAT OP 8 SEPTEMBER 1980 .

GERT VISSER, nag onder eed

U Edele het my net n vraag gevra wat ek vanoggend

moet antwoord.

HOF ~ Ja. -- Voordat ek dit antwoord. Ek het In fout

agtergekom wat ek gemaak het met foto's 12 en 13. Ek het

ges~ 273 rondtes. Dit is 237 rondtes. Dit stem ook ooreen

met die sleutel tot die foto's. Die totaal dan is 417

7.62 x 39 mm ammunisie.

Dit is die AK? -- Dit is die AK. (10

Ja.? En 60 rondtes 9 mm kort ammunisie. Die totaal

van die ammunisie wat in die sak gevind is by die bank, is

230 rondtes AK ammunisie.

Dit is te Silverton? -- Te Silverton, ja.

230 rondtes wat? -- AK ammunisie.

KRUISONDERVRAGING DEUR MNR . BROWDE Geen vrae .

HERONDERVRAGING DEUR MNR . JANSEN ~ Geen vrae .

GEEN VERDERE VRAE.

M1~ . JANSEN Edele , sersant Terblanche is nog ond er .eed .

Ek weet nie of die Hof hom moontlik vrae wou gestel het (20

nie . My Geleerde Vriend het aangedui hy wil geen vrae aan

hom stel nie.

HOF Ry word ook verskoon .

MR . BROWDE: My Lord, may I just interrupt . Insofar as

Mr . Terblanche is being excused, I think it may be neces­

sary for him to stay in the environs of the Court in r egard

to something which I have discussed with My Learned Fr iend .

I do not think Mr . Terblanche should actually leave . As

far as Mr . Visser is concerned, that is in order .

COURT: The agreement is that I excuse a witness and (30

then he is really under the orders of the State advocate

. .. / who

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- 740 - MOLLENTZE

who will then tell him where to be and how to get him .

MR. BROWDE! As Your Lordship pleases .

ROF: Dit is mos so, nie waar nie, mnr. Jansen?

M1~. JANSEN: Dit is reg.

COURT I do not want to tell him every time stay . It

takes up too much time.

MONTY CONROY MOLLENTZE, v.o.e . NR. 50 (55)

. 01~ERVRAGING DEUR MNR. JAN'SEN ~ Is u n konstabel in die

Suid-Afrikaanse Polisie te Pretoria? -- Dit is reg.

Op 14 Januarie 1980 het u as gevolg van In rapport (10

ongeveer kwart-oor-nege die aand na Boomstraat busdepot

hier te Pretoria gegaan? Dit is reg.

Ret u daar n sekere mnr. Odendal aangetref? -- Dit is

reg.

En die mnr . Odendal het toe In sekere rapport aan u

gemaak en n persoon aan u oorhandig? -- Dit is reg .

Sal u die persoon wat hy aan u oorhandig het weer herken?

Ja.

Sien u hom vandag in die hof? Ja .

Wie was di e persoon? -- Beskuldigde nr . 5 . (20

Die persoon wat nou daar opstaan? -- Dit is reg.

Roe het beskuldigde nr . 5 hom aan u voorgestel? Ry

het sy naam vir ons gegee, maar hy het ook aan ons In bewys­

boekie get oon.

Wat was die naam wat hy aan u gegee het en die naam

wat op die bewysboekie verskyn het? -- Samson Ngake.

En u het hom toe gearresteer en aangehou? -- Dit is

reg .

Ret u sy bewysboek ook op beslag gel~? -- Ons het dit

gedoen . (30

En later weer aan hom t eruggegee ? -- Dit is reg .

/ Wie

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- 741 - . MOLLENTZE

Wie se foto het in die bewysboek verskyn? -- Dit was

die besk~digde sIn .

KRUISONDERVRAGING DEUR MNR. BROWDE! Mnr. Mollentze, na

sy arrestasie, waarheen het u hom geneem? -- Na Sentraal

Polisiestasie.

Wat het daar gebeur? -- Ons het die gevangene deursoek

en sy persoonlike besittings ingehandig. Toe ons hom deur­

soek het, het ons ook sy bewysboek by hom gekry. Alles

word opgeskryf in n PEK.

En was hy daar aangehou? Dit is korrek . (10

Onder bevel van wie? -- Hoe bedoel u onder bevel van

wie? Ons het hom as n verdagte gearresteer.

As In verdagte? -- Di t is reg.

En wat het met hom gebeur? Weet u? Hoe lank was hy

daar in daardie - hoe lank was hy daar aangehou? -- Dit

weet ek ongelukkig nie . Ons hou In verdagte aan en dan gaan

die saak oor na die speurders toe en die speurders kom kla

hom aan. Hoe lank hy daar was, weet ek nie .

Weet u wat het daarna met hom gebeur? -- Nee, ek weet

nie.

Is u net in staat om t e se wat het daardie aand met

hom gebeur? -- Dit is reg.

HERONDERVRAGI ID DEUR MNR . JANSEN

GEEN"'yERDERE VR~.

Geen vrae.

(20

JOHANNES ABRAHAM VAN DER WESTHUIZEN, v . o. e. NR. 54 (56)

ONDERVRAGING DEUR MNR. JANSEN! Is u In adjudant-offisier

in die Suid-Afrikaanse Polisie verbonde aan die veilig­

heidstak te Pretoria? -- Dit is korrek .

Op 29 Januarie 1980 het u as gevolg van In rapport

gegaan of n opdrag gegaan na die Sentrale Gevangenis hier(30

te Pretoria? -- Dit is korrek .

. .. / Die

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- 742 - VAN DER WESTHUI ZEN

Die opdr ag i s aan u g egee deur luitenant Vi sser?

Di t is korrek .

Wat was die opdrag gewees? -- Luitenant Vi sser het

my opdrag gegee om 'n vermoedelike opgeleide ... (Mnr. Jan­

sen kom tussenbei)

Nee, om n persoon te gaan haal? -- Dit is korre k , ja .

Met watter naam? -- Ene Samson Ngake.

Het u toe na die gevangenis gegaan? Dit is korrek .

Wie het u daar aangetref? -- Ek het beskuldigde nr . 5

daar aangetref . (10

Hoe het hy sy naam aan u gegee? -- Hy het sy naam aan

my gegee as Hlolile Benjamin Tau.

Het u hom toe geneem en hier na u kantore te Kompol-

gebou te Pretoria geneem? Di t is korrek.

En was u ook teenwoordig toe luitenant Visser sekere

vr a e aan di e beskulqi gd e gest el het? -- Di t i s korrek .

U was ook t eenwoordi g met die ui t wysing van basis

nr . 2 op die oggend van 30 Januarie deur beskuldigde nr . 5?

Dit i s korrek .

Op 29 Januar i e, die s elfd e dag wat u met beskuldi gd e (20

nr . 5 onderhandel het , het u ook met een van die ander

beskuldi gd es 'n onderhoud gehad ? -- Di t is korrek .

Watt er beskuldi gd e was di t? -- Beskuldi gde nr . 4 .

En nadat u h om ondervr a het, het u hom oorhandig aan

s peurder-sersant Terblanch e? Di t is korrek . Dit het die

ogg end van die 30st e geskied .

Die oorhandi gi ng? - - Dit is korrek , ja .

30 Januarie? - - Di t i s korrek .

En u het 'n s ekere opdrag aan speur d er- sersant Ter-

blanche t oe gegee ? - - Dit is korrek .

Ons bly by beskuldi gde nr . 4 . Wanneer het u hom weer

. .. / ondervr a

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- 743 - VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

ondervra? -- Dit was 7 Februarie 1980 .

Waar? -- Te Krugersdorp .

En as gevolg van die ondervraging het die beskuldigde

In s ekere rapport aan u gemaak. Ek wil nie die inhoud daar­

van hoor nie. -- Dit is korrek.

En as gevolg van die rapport, wat het u toe gedoen? -­

As gevolg van die rapport het ek lui tenant Botha van veilig­

heidstak, Springs geskakel en sekere inligting en beskrywings

aan hom oorgedra.

MR.BROWDE My Lord, My Learned Friend is aware of the (10 I:;;rne.

fact that I am going at someAto object to this witness's

evidence and I think this is perhaps the moment when I

should. I would ask Your Lordship to ask the assessors

to leave the Court.

COURT ~ The Court adjourns for a few moments.

GETUIE STAAN AF.

JOHANNES ABRAHAM V AN DER WESTHUIZEN, nog onder eed

MR . BROWDE ~ My Lord, it is our instructions that this

witness in what he calls interrogation of accused nos . 4

and 5, conducted what I may put bluntly as a torture (20

chamber. He assaulted accused no. 4 very seriously in order

to extract information from him. He did the same thing

in regard to accused no . 5 and it is our submission that

all the information which was extracted from these two

accused by this witness, is inadmissible as having been

forced out of them by illegal means . I may say that when

My Learned Friend leads the evidence as he has done that

"you did the interrogation, a report was made to you by

accused no. 4, as a result of that, you made a report to

someone else and as a result of that, things happened . " (30

That is what the evidence is going to be, because My

... / Learned

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- 744 - VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

Learned Friend was good enough to tell me before we started

what the evidence is going to be . My submission is that

that leads to a situation while there is no hear&w evi­

dence in it. It leads to a situation where evidence is

led from which clear inferences will be drawn against the

accused and consequently I submit that in regard to the

evidence of this witness, there should be a trial in a

trial to decide whether or not Mr. Van der Westhuizen

conducted himself properly as a police officer.

HOE: Wat s~ u, mnr. Jansen? (10

MNR. JANSEN: U Edele, die Staat gaan geen getuienis aan­

bied om trent enigiet swat die beskuldigdes, enige van die

twee beskuldigdes, aan hierdie getuie sou ges~ het nie.

HOE: Sal dit nou beteken dat lui tenant Botha geen getuie­

nis g aan afl~ nie?

M1~JANSEN: Omtrent wat ges~ is nie.

HOF: Dit maak nie saak nie. Mnr . Browde s~ die inlig­

ting is verkry van beskuldigdes nrs. 4 en 5 op n verkeerde

manier. Sonder daardie inligting kan Botha nie getuienis

afl~ nie . Met daardie inligting weI. Normaalweg is daar(20

geen prob1eme daarmee ni e, behalwe di t, en di t is waaroor

hy kapsie maak . Hy s~ daar geen n afleiding gemaak word

uit die getuienis wat Botha gee en daardie afleiding sal

nou verkeerdelik voor die Hof kom, want di t is In afleiding

teen beskuldigdes nrs. 4 en 5 en gevolglik maak dit nou

geen verskil of Van der Westhuizen self gegaan het as

gevolg van die inligting wat hy verkeerdelik gekry het, na

die mening van die verdediging, en self getuienis gee oor

goed wat hy g ekry het direk van die beskuldigd es en of

hy dit nou oordra aan ses verskillende mense en daardie (30

ses verskillende mense kom en hulle is heeltemal onskuldig

/ maar

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- 745 - VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

maar hulle breek nou net die skakel .

MNR . JANSEN: U EdeIe, Iaat ek dit so stel e Artikel 218,

die kwessie van die uitwysing ... (Hof kom tussenbei)

HOF: Hier is nie In uitwysing sover ek weet nie.

MNR. JANSEN: Dit is waarop dit gaan kom.

HOF: Is di t?

M1~. JANSEN! Ja.

COURT! Mr. Browde, matters pointed out as a result of -

you know the Section?

MR. BROWDE! Of course, My Lord.

COURT: Wrongly got, etc. which would not normally be

admissible as a confession, is allowed.

MR. BROWDE ! Absolutely.

COURT! Now, that he says he is going to lead·.

MR. BROWDE! Well, My Lord, that is not what My Learned

Friend has told me .

COURT: I do not think Mr . Jansen really realised the

import of your objection until I put it to him point for

point . That is something else, but do not let us waste

(10

time. (20

~ BROWDE No . May I just say this?

COURT: Yes?

MR. BROWDE: My Learned Friend has led evidence of many

pointings out in this case and I objected to none of them .

COURT: That is right .

MR . BROWDE Because we are aware of that, but My Learned

Friend has given me a document which he is going to use .

If My Learned Friend calls that a pointing out, which is

alleged to be a drawing by one of the accused, with respect,

that is not a pointing out . Nor is a pointing out to (30

say "I got information. I gave that information to somebody

... / else

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- 746 - VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

"else and as a result of that information he found arms in

a particular place . That is not a pointing out .

COURT: Let us assume that the accused is manhandled by

Mr. Van der Westhuizen. Then the accused goes and points

out the place where the arms are stored. You would not

be able to object in terms of Section 218.

MR. BROWDE ~ 1 think not, My Lord.

QOURT: It follows a little longer route. Instead of

Van der Westhuizen going, Van der Westhuizen puts this

wrong or illegal information before another person and (10

he then goes and finds out what it is. I take it that if

it - the pointing out does not necessarily mean the actual

pointing out. I think the Section also covers evidence

or facts procured as a result of that, which not neces-

sarily was pointed out. It is fairly wide, this Section.

I am only speaking from memory.

MR. BROWDE ~ No, that is qUite right, My Lord, with

respect. That is perfectly correct . There is a judgment

of His Lordship Mr. Justice Coleman . In that judgment

which is S v DLADLA, I am not sure what the reference is(20

at the moment, it is 1975 or thereabout, His Lordship,

Mr. Justice Coleman who dealt with this v ery situation

said that where this pointing out is done as a result of

violence, improper violence on the accused, there may be

a suggestion in that case that the Court has a discretion

to exclude it, but that is not really the point . I am

not really concerned with that . I am concerned mainly with

the fact that what was said by accused no . 4 was not volun­

tarily said.

CCURT ---- Well, let me put this to you . If no evidence (30

is Jed about what was said and that is what Mr . Jansen says,

.. . / he

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- 747 - VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

he is leading no evidence of statements, this is just

information got pointing out which was good or obtained

by the State in terms of Section 218. That is all he

says.

MR. BROWDE Well, if that is all My Learned Friend is

going to lead, then I would listen to what it is and per­

haps Your Lordship should just hear it, before it is led

..• (Court intervenes)

COURT ! Before getting the assessors back, because I might

rule ag ainst it. (10

MR. BROWDE ~ And then you could hear it again, My Lord.

COURT: I am going to hear it again in any case, because

my assessors have to hear it and even if I allow it, they

might overrule me and say as far as facts are concerned,

we will not look at those facts, although I have allowed

those facts to be before the Court. They can overrule

me. That is why the evidence is put before them again .

It must be. I can hear it twice.

MR. BROWDE As Your Lordship pleases.

COURT: I am just here. I have got to hear it. (20

MR. BROWDE Perhaps we could just hear it then, My Lord .

HOF: Mnr . Jansen,wat ek nou gaan voorstel is dit, dat

u daardie getuienis lei. Ek gaan dit nie eers afskryf

nie, want ek gaan dit weer afskrywe as ek dit toelaat .

Dan sal ek dit afskryf wanneer die volle hof weer bymekaar

is.

M~~ . JANSEN: Ja, soos u behaag. Wil u h~ ek moet op

hierdie stadium u verwys na artikel 218?

HOt: Ek wonder of u nie maar moontlik vir my net kan

eers vertel wat die getuienis is ni e .

M1~. JANSEN U Edele, u het dit, me alle respek, bai e

/ goed

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- 748 - VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

goed saamgevat . Hierdie getuie het In rapport ontvang . ~

Hy het inligting oorgedra aan luitenant Botha. Later

lei ek wat luitenant Botha gevind het as gevolg van di e

inligting.

BOF: Nou goed, wat het hy gevind?

~NR. JANSEN ~ Hy het n klomp wapens gevind, soos My Ge-

leerde Vriend aangedui het.

HOF: Is dit al?

MNR. JANSEN: Di tis al.

HOF: Net di.e wapens? (10

M1~. JANSEN! Wapens en ander artikels wat daarmee saam­

gaan. In Hoeveelheid goed in n gat.

HOF: So, luit enant Botha gaan s~ "Ek het as gevolg van

inligting wat ek gekry het van lui tenant Van der Westhuizen -

adjudant-offisier Van der Westhuizen, gegaan na punt X

by Kwatema in Springsll ek hoop nie ek se nou presie~ die

regte plek nie, want .. . CMnr . Jansen kom tussenbei)

MNR . JANSEN ~ U se dit toevallig . Die klagstaat is

duidelik daaromtrent .

HOF Ek ry dikwels Springs toe en di t is In plek wat (20

ek ken, maar dit nou daar gelaat "en daar het ek wapens

gekry. That is what the evidence will be . Just that .

As a result of information got from warrant officer Van

der Westhuizen, Lieutenant Botha went to a place near

Kwatema and there found these arms and ammunition" or

whatever it is . I do not know .

MNR. JANSEN ·' Dan gaan die Staat verder . Die Staat gaan

ook s~ op 25 Februarie het die beskuldigd e vir adjudant-

offisier Van der Westhuizen geneem en in teenwoordigheid

van luitenant Botha daardie selfde punt uitgewys.

HOF ~ Laat ons nou maar daardie aspek ook nou behandel .

.. . / That

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- 749 - VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

That is the sum total .

MR . BROWDE! May I just add this point . I do not under­

stand why My Learned Friend has differed in the approach

to these two accused from what he has up to now. Up to

now, My Lord, he has led evidence of pointing out. The

pointing out .•. (Court intervenes)

COURT Will Mr. Jansen not be in difficulty if at a later

stage the defence were to mention that they were belaboured

by a witness Van der Westhuizen and that witness was not

called, because he need not have called this Mr.Van der (10

Westhuizen. He could only have called the Lieutenant.

I think, possibly, in view of that, he said "Here, are the

cards, they are all there."

MR. BROWDE ~ You see, My Lord, what we are saying is that

what he has got, what this witness got out of them was

inadmissible admissions or confessions or what have you.

COURT: But that is not before the Court and that cannot

be before the Court .

MR . BROWDE: That is fair enough. If things arising from

that, if the accused goes and points something out, as 1(20

understand that Section, it is admiSSible, but that is not

being done in this case. This is being done ... (Court

intervenes)

COURT! I do not know why the State has chosen to do it

this way . I do not know, but be that as it may , the State

can, he has put Mr. Van der Westhuizen here for you to

deal with him under cross-examination, but his evidence

and Lieutenant Botha's evidence will be confined to a

pointing out only or to articles gotten as a result of

the - all in terms of Section 218 and the moment he goes (30

outside 218, you will stop him, because that will be my

. .. / order

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- 750 - VAN DER WESTHUI ZEN

order.

MR . BROWDE ~ As Your Lordship pleases . I will do that ,

My Lord .

COUR! ~ And I will get the assessors back and we can go

on on that basis, but the moment he goes outside it , then

you object straight away.

MR. BROWDE ~ As Your Lordship pleases.

COURT I just want certainty that that is all that is

going to be led?

MR . JANSEN ~ No. My Learned Friend was properly correct(lO

when he said that I was about to tell Your Lordship about -

I am also going to lead evidence against a certain sketch

made by accused no . 5 and handed to this witness, but it

is only a certain sketch.

MR . BROWDE ~ I have no objection to Your Lordship seeing

the sketch and you will s ee i mmediately why I object to

i t .

COURT ~ Can I have a l ook at i t?

MR . BROWDE: I would like Your Lordshi p to see it .

i s a sketch of the bank . I do not know who did it .

That

(20

Accused no . 5 t ells me he dr ew a s quar e and everything els e

was done by Mr. Van der We s t hui zen. Mr. Van der Westhui zen

i s smiling now : but that i s what he says .

COURT ; A handwriting expert I t hink is called f or h ere.

MR . BROWDE ~ In fact , I think the witness should be asked

to l eave the Cour t as well .

ROF : Sal u maar die hof v erlaat , mnr. Van der Westhui z en?

GETU IE ST AAN AF.

COURT ': I think a handwr it i ng expert is call ed f or ,. Mr .

Browde ? (30

MR . BROWDE The fact of the matt er is that that i s not

... / the

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- 751 -

,the complaint . My complaint is that that is extremely

damaging evidence and tha t is not a pointing out . That ,

in our submission, does not fall within 218 . That, My

Lord, is an admissible statement made by the accused.

MKR. JANSEN ~ U Edele, My Geleerde Vriend het nou die

oplossing gegee. Dit is n kwessie van geloofwaardigheid

wat hier ter sprake gaan kom tussen die beskuldigde wat

s~ adjudant-offisier Van der Westhuizen het dit getrek,

of adjudant-offisier Van der Westhuizen wat s~ dat die

beskuldigde dit getrek het. (10

£L~ Wat hy s~ is dit. Mnr. Browde se die beSkuldigde

was gedwing om dit te trek.

MNR. JANSEN ~ U Edele, soos ek hom verstaan, s~ hy die

res is ingevul deur adjudant-offisier Van der Westhuizen.

MR . BROWDE ~ No, no , I say this was forced out of the

accused, My Lord . He drew a square and then he was forc ed

to write in things by this man .

COURT : I did not und erstand that. I thought that this

man filled in t he rest. That is why I said a handwriting

expert is necessary . (20

MR . BROWDE He drew a square, My Lord, and then he was

told what to write and what to fill in and that is what he

did .

COURT By this witness?

MR . BROWDE: Yes, under compulsion.

COURT: Then this will be a trial within a trial.

MNR. JANSEN: Soos u behaag . Dit besef ek, maar ek het

My Geleerde Vri end ook verstaan soos U Edele.

MR . BROWDE ~ I May have given the wrong impression, but

those a re my instructions . (30

COURT Yes, but i t is clear that the person who drew

... / I

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- 752 - VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

I am not talking about the writing at the bottom, but

even for a man who knows nothing about handwriting , one

man was responsible for the little figures and the name,

so it seems at the face value of it. Writing at the

bottom does not seem ... (Mr. Browde intervenes)

MR. BROWDE ~ I do not know exactly about the details , but

the writing was done by the accused at the instructions

of this wi tness .

CGURT : Very well. Then we will hold a trial within a

trial. We will try and confine ourselves to that aspect.(lO

In other words, it is only going to be this little ske tch?

MR. BROWDE ~ Yes.

COURT: And if there is anything else which now flows

from this, then you can also lead it and let us finish

with this trial within a trial.

MR. JANSEN ~ No , My Lord, the rest of the evidence of

this witness will be as to pointing out of certain spots

COURT: Very well . Call your witness and let him be

cross-examined and then you can lead evidence in rebuttal,

if necessary .

MR . JANSEN : As Your Lordship pleases .

JOHANNES ABRAHAM V AN DER WESTHUIZEN, nog onder eed

01""DERVRAGING DEUR MNR . JANSEN (vervolg ) -: Mnr . Van der

Westhuizen, u het beskuldigde nr. 5 op verskeie geleent­

hede ondervra? -- Dit is korrek.

(20

Ran u aan die Hof die datums gee? U het reeds geno em

al met die hoofverhoor op 29 Januarie en daarna? -- Op 15

Februarie .

Het u hom op 1 Februarie ook gesien of nie? -- Dit is

korrek . 1 Februarie, 9 Februarie, 15, 25 ... (Mnr . Jansen (3 0

kom tussenbei)

... / Di t

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- 753 - VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

Dit is genoeg vir doeleindes van hierdie saak . Het

beskuldigde nr. 5 sy samewerking verleen of wat was die

g eval gewees of moes u enige dwang g ebrui k het? - - Ek het

g een dwang op beskuldigde nr . 5 uitgeoef en nie. Hy het

sy samewerking aan my gegee reg van die begi n af .

Deur al die ondervragings? -- Deur al di e ondervra­

gings .

My Geleerde Vriend het aan Sy Edele ' u skets getoon

wat na bewering deur beskuldigde nr . 5 gemaak sou gewees

het . Kan u onthou op watter stadium die skets gemaak (1 0

is? - - Die skets is op 9 Februarie aan my gemaak .

Waar? -- By Kompolgebou hier in Pretoria .

In watter kantoor? -- In my kantoor .

Is daar eni ge dwang op di e beskuldigd e uitgeoefen om

die skets t e maak? -- Nee.

Wie was teenwoordig g ewees toe hy die sket s g emaak

het ? - - Speurder-sersant Terblanche was teenwoordig gewees .

Hy was saam met my in die kantoor gewees .

Enigiemand anders? - - Nee .

Watter taal het u met beskuldig de nr. 5 gepraat? -- (20

Eng els .

KRill SONDERVRAGING DEUR MNR . BROWTIE ': Is di t moontlik dat

daar In misverstand tussen jou en beskuldigde nr . 5 ont­

staan het deur die gebruik van Engels? -- Beskuldigde nr . 5

praat redelik vlot Engels.

En u? -- Ek praat redelik vlot Engels .

Then I t ake it you would not mind if I cross- examine

you in Engli sh? -- You may .

If you wish to, you can answer in Afri kaans, i f you

f eel more a t home. How long hav e you b een in the police (3 0

f orce? -- I am i n t he police f orce since 1969 .

'0 ' / I n

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- 754 - VAN DER WESTHUI ZEN

In what br anch? -- I am at tached t o t he securi ty ,

br anch since 1971.

And since when have you been charged with the i nterro­

gation of people who are suspected of crimes? -- Si nce 1 978 .

Have you given evidence before in Court as to the

result of your interrogations? -- That is correct .

Has it been suggested before that you used force t o

extract inadmissible statements? -- No,

You know, of course, that that would be illegal to

do that sort of thing? -- That is correct. (10

When you first met accused no. 5 was on 29 January?

That is correct.

Where was that? - - At the Pretoria Central Prison.

Have you given evidence in the Supreme Court before?

No .

What Courts have you gi ven evi denc e i n? -- In the l ower

Cour ts.

And when you met a ccused no . 5 on 29 J anuar y , under

what Section was he being held? -- When I met him where?

At the pris on? ( 20

Well , on 29 J anuary you me t him at the Pretori a Central

Prison? -- He was held for motor t heft.

And di d you i n terrogate him? -- On that day , ye s .

About t he mo t or t he ft? -- No.

For how l ong did you i nterrogate him? -- On t hat

speci f i c day approxi mately one t o t wo hour s, may be more.

Ab out what? -- I i nt errogated him about bases t hat

were us ed by him and member s of hi s group .

And di d he give you all the i nformat ion you want ed ,

r ead i ly and fr eely? -- That i s co r r ect .

And you conducted an interrogation f or tw o hours or

. .. / more

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- 755 - VAN DER WE STHUI ZEN

more? -- That i s correct .

Did you make not es of what he said? -- Yes .

Have you got those notes? -- The not es are available.

May I see them? -- (Notes are handed to Mr . Browde )

As a re sult of this interrogation, did you get infor-

mation about these bases? -- That is correct.

By that time, of course, had Silverton taken place?

That is correct.

We know that accused no. 5 was arrested on 14 January .

- - I do not know. (10

Well, we know that. When was Silverton? -- 25 January .

So, he was in jail for about eleven days prior to the

event? - - It may be.

What happened to the accused after you interrogated

hi m on the 29th? Was he l eft i n the Pr etor i a Cent r al

Pri s on? I di d not i nt errogat e him at the Pre t oria Central

Pris on .

Where did you i nterrogate him? -- I i nt errogat ed him

at my office, Compol Building .

What happened to hi m aft er that? -- I s ent hi m to (20

a judge aft er I i nterrogat ed hi m. He made certai n reports

t o me and I s ent him to a j udge.

A judge ? What judge? At the l ower Court.

What di d you s end him to a judge f or?

HOF As u ni e die woord in Engels verstaan nie, se dit

in Afrikaans . He t u hom na In Regt er g es tuur? -- Nee, hom

na n Landdro s gestuur.

Ja .

Kyk , d i e advokaat het gevr a dat hy Engels pr aat. --

Eng els is blykbaar u t weede taal? -- Nee.

Wat i s u eerste taal? -- My eerst e taal i s Afrikaans .

. .. / Engels

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- 756 - VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

Engels is u tweede taal . As u probleme het, die

advokaat het vir u gese, gebru i k dan die Afrikaanse woord

as u nie die woord weet nie. Verstaan u? -- Goed.

MR . BROWDE ~ Did you go with him to the Magistrate?

No, I did not.

Why not? -- No, I instructed Constable De Villiers to

take him to the Magistrate. May I please just answer

your previous question when you asked me why did I send

him to a Landdros? Ek het hom gestuur om In bekentenis af

t e l~. (10

Do you know that he complained to the Magistrate that

he was in fear of being assaulted? -- No.

Have you never had a look at what he said to the

Magistrate? -- I read his statement, but he did not say

that he was threatened.

Have you read the statement that he made to the Magis-

trate?-- Yes.

Do you say that he did not tell the Magistrate that

he was in fear of being assaulted? -- He was in fear, but

he was not threatened . (20

What do you think instil~that fear in him? -- I do not

know .

You for your part were friendly towards him?-- Yes,

because he co-operated with me right from the beginning .

He told you everything yo~ wanted to know about the

bases? -- That is correct .

And then was he held still as an ordinary prisoner

at the Central Jail after that? No . as

What was he held there thereafter? -- I think he was "

put under Section 6 . (30

So, His Lordship can assume that he was under Section 6

... / thereafter

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- 757 - VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

thereafter? -- From the following day.

COURT ~ You are talking about the following day and there­

after. Can you tell me, thereafter what?

MR. BROWDE! After the 29th? -- That is correct.

So, all the other interrogations were while he was

under Section 6? -- That is correct.

Did you not see him again until when? -- From which

date?

After 29 January? -- I saw him on previous occasions .

On previous occasions? Yes. (10

Or subsequent occasions? Voor dit of na dit? -- Na

die 29ste.

On I February? -- That is correct.

And did you interrogate him again? -- That is correct.

For how long? -- That interrogation did not last long.

How long? -- About 15, 20 minutes.

Have you a memory of that, that on 1 February you

interrogated him for 15 to 20 minutes only? - - Because

we did not interrogate him long on that day .

What did you interrogate him about? -- I interroga- (20

ted him about t arget assaults.

Well, do let us not get any mistake as a result of

use of language. You mean attacks on targets? -- That is

correct, yes.

And did he co- operate with you again? -- That is cor-

rect o

Is that the first time that targets were mentioned

between you and accused no. 5? - - That is correct .

And did he give you all the information you wanted

to know? -- Firstly, he only gave me one target that had(30

to be attacked.

. .. / And

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758 VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

And t hen? When did you s ee him after that ? - - After

t hat I saw him agai n on 9 Febr uar y .

To interrogate him about what? -- On the Silverton

siege.

And did he co-operate with you again? -- That is cor-

rect o

No problems whatsoever? -- No problems .

Was that the day the diagram~as done? -- The plan

was drawn, yes •

And did he immediately, when you got onto the Silver-(IO

ton siege, concede that he knew something about the Silver­

ton siege? -- I firstly questioned him about the Silverton

siege and then he came with information about it.

Voluntarily? - - Yes.

He told you he knows about the Silverton siege? -- That

is correct .

Was that the f i rs t t i me that you ever mentioned the

Silvert on sieg e t o hi m? -- That i s correct .

On 9 February? - - That is correct .

Are you s aying, are you going to tell His Lordship (2 0

that he voluntarily drew t his diagram f or you? -- That is

correct. I asked him to draw me the plan of how they would

opera te and he di d it voluntarily .

By t hat t ime, of co urse, you knew all the details

of what had hap pened in Silverton? You yourself? -- No,

I woul d not s ay all the details, but some of the details .

You knew that there were three t errorists in the

bank and people had been killed and the whole story that

we have hear d in t hi s Cour t? -- That is correct.

And you knew the nam es of the t errorists? -- Their (3 0

real names?

. .. / Ye s

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- 759 - VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

Yes? Yes .

And you al so knew that code-names were shown in their

ref erence books? - - No, I did not know their code-names

(Mr . Browde intervenes)

You did not know that? No.

Had nobody shown you that there were reference books

f ound on these people? -- I k~ow that there were ref erence

books, but I did not s ee the names in the books .

Why not? -- Because I did not look at it .

You did not look at it? -- No . Because I knew that(lO

they usually use false reference books .

Just have a look~ this diagram . Is that the original

that you have there? - - That is correct .

What i s J ohn and Zind e written i n there? - - Where?

In the bank? -- That is the name of two of his co­

members .

What i s it supposedto present , this John and Zinde

and Zakai and Matue in this square? You can see h e

put some dot s , actually in the half of the block . He said

that was the counter of t he bank and t hat John and Zindile (2 0

should get behind the counter of the bank . His name you

will see is on this main entrance, on the eastern side .

Wh ose name ? - - Zakhile . That is accused no . 5.

That he personally was to do something here? That

is correct . The other name is Matue . That is on the

north ern side of - the northern entrance of the bank .

And who drew these little people? -- I did it myself .

Why di d you draw t h e little people ? I told h im

the peopl e are in front of t h e bank . He must tell me

what they should do insi de . (30

Why di d you draw t he litt le peo ple? Why did he not

.. . / draw

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- 760 - VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

draw the little people? -- He has also drawn the sketch

and written t he names i nside t he bl ock . I drew t he people

here and I asked hi m "Expl.ain to me what did everybody

do inside the bank" .

I do not follow that. I do not know whether Your

Lordship does . What came first? The dr awi ng of the

li ttle people or the drawing of the square ? -- No, he f irst

drew the square.

And then? Then he wrote in the names .

Yes, John and Zinde and Zakai and Matue? -- That is(IO

correct .

Wher e it appear s in the square ? -- That i s corr ect .

What was the point of drawing the little people?

I told him that I did not und erstand . The people are i n

the bank . How did they get into the bank . I drew the

people on the eastern side. I did it myself and I asked

him "Explain to me where you would go and what you would

do inside" .

Just a moment . He had already shown you, according

to you, that J ohn and Zinde were going to be behind the (20

counter? -- That is correct .

Zakai was going to be in the door? -- That is cor r ect .

And Matue was going to be in the corner? -- That is

correct .

Now, what was the purpose of drawing the little people?

Where they must get into the bank, He had to show me

where these people were going to get into the bank, which

doors they were going to use .

Which doors? -- Which entrances, yes .

How many ent rances are shown on t hi s? Two .

So, why did you draw the li t tle people? Why coul d

... / he

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- 761 - VAN DER WESTHDIZEN

he not just tell you? -- Because I asked them to put

the people to the entrances, where they should enter.

And did he not do that? -- No, he told me that they

all should have gone through the one entrance.

So, then why was it necessary to draw the little

people? -- So that they can divide into the entrances.

He told you they all went through one entrance? -­

After I asked him to tell me which entrance they should

have used.

Have you ever used a wet towel on anybody? -- For (10

what purpose?

For strangling them? -- No.

You see, because the accused will tell His Lordship

C68 that you had a wet towel which you twisted round his

throat and nearly strangled him and he passed out in fact?

That is a lie. ,

And what are these marks on the side here, 4 AK's?

This written part?

Yes? -- That is what the accused told me they would

have taken into the bank . ( 20

Why was it necessary for him to write it down? Why

could you not write it down? -- I asked him and he started

writing it down .

Oh, come on. Why could you not write it down? You

were taking notes of what he was saying, were you not?

But as you can see I took notes on different papers .

But the object of getting things from the accused

was to find out what arms were to be used in the bank, as

far as he was concerned? -- That is correct.

Why could you not write it down yourself? -- Beca~30

he did it.

. .. / Yes

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- 762 - VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

Yes, I know he did it, but why did you not do it

yourself? -- He wrote it down on his own. I asked him what

type of weapons they would use and he wrote these notes

down on the paper.

Are you suggesting that you asked him what weapons

he used and he quickly wrote down 4 AKl s , grenades , spare

ammunition. We would not use explosives in the bank. Is

that what you are saying? -- That was about what happened .

Why was it necessary fur him to write "We would not

use explosives in the bank"? Why would he write that? (10

Can you explain that to His Lordship? -- He firstly wrote

4 AKls, grenades, spare ammunition and then I asked him

"Would you not use explosives in the bank?" Then he said

"No." Then I said "Well, you must also write it down."

Why? -- Well, he wrote the others down. He could

also write that down.

But why should he write down "We would not use ex­

plosives in the bank"? Why should he write that down? -­

Because he said it.

So, can we take it that everything he said, he (20

wrote down? - - No, not everything that he said .

Why did he write down "We would not use explosives in

the bank?" -- As I explained to you, I asked him if they

would use explosives in the bank .

And he said no? And he said no . So, I told him

"Then you can also write that down ."

Why? What for? -- Because he had already written the

previous parts down .

Let us deal with this properly . Why did he write down

anything on this document? With what object? Wat was (30

die doel? -- Hoe bedoel u wat was die doel? Van die

. .. / neerskryf

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- 763 - VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

neerskryf?

Ja? -- Ek het hom gevra IfWatse wapens gaan julle g ebruik? '~

en hy het vir my hierdie notas neergeskryf .

You asked him "What weapons were you going to use?"

That is correct.

HOF ~ Julle moet of Afrikaans praat of Engels, maar nie

deurmekaar nie.

MR'. BROWDE -: You said to him in English "What weapons

were you going to use?" -- That is correct.

What did he say to that? -- He first said "We will (10

be four people that will go into the bank . So, there will

be 4 AX's."

Yes? -- And he wrote it down.

Why did he write that down? -- Well, I do not know.

You must ask him that.

And then, what else did he say? -- Then he said "We

would also take in hand-grenades."

How many? Did you ask him? No, because he did not

know . He said "We will probably take every hand- grenade

that we have got ." (20

Did you ask him how many? -- He could not tell me the

number.

Mr . Van der Westhuizen, did you ask him how many?

No .

Then, if you did not ask him how many, how do you

know that he did not know the number? -- Because I asked

him "Would you take in hand-grenades" and then he said

"I do not know how many . " That was his answer .

Do you mean you did not ask him how many and he did

not know bow many? -- And he answered that.

Did you make a note of that? -- No, because he then

. .. / wrote

(30

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- 764 - VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

wrote it down.

Just listen to this . He said to you "I do not know

how many grenades are taken in"? -- That is correct .

But you did not ask him how many grenades? -- No,

not specifically how many.

But he said he did not know how many they had? -­

That is correct.

In answer to what was that? -- I asked him how many

grenades were there at the base.

Did you ask him how many grenades he had at the base?(lO

That is correct, at the base.

And how many did he say? -- Well, he did not know the

number .

So, he just wrote down "grenades"? -- Yes, that is

correct.

What else did you ask him? -- He said they would take

in 4 .AX's and I said "With what?" and he said "Wi th spare

ammunition . "

With spare ammunition? - - Well, with .AX ammunition

and spare ammunition. (20

And then quickly wrote down "spare ammunition"?

Well, he wrote it down" spare ammunition . "

Out of his own? -- Yes.

Did you think it was strange that he should do that?

-- I did not think it was strange.

You did not think it was strange? No .

Then he w rot e do~n "We would not use explosives in

the bank"? -- As I explained to you why he wrote it down .

Well, I do not know that you have explained it . Would

you just explain it agai n? I asked him would they use(30

explo s ive s in the bank . He answered "No ." Then I told

... / him

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- 76 5 - VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

him "Seeing that you have written this down, you can also

write that down ."

Di d you want to use it subs equently? -- Use what?

This writing of his? -- For what purpo s e?

To show that he knew somethi ng about what went on in

t h e bank? Well , he did know what was goi ng on in the

bank .

I s that why you asked him to writ e this down? Why

did you ask him to w ri t e it down? This last part?

Yes? - - Actually I asked him to wri t e i t down that (10

t hey would not use explosives in the bank .

But what di d that show? Why did you want that writ t en

down? "We are not going to use explos i ves in the bank ."

Why did you want it written down? -- I j us t cannot explain

it now . I just asked him to write it down .

It is now quarter- past- eleven . I am going to ask you

to think abo ut that, because I want you to tell His Lord­

ship why you a sk ed him to write t hat down .

WITNESS STANDS DOWN .

COURT ADJOURNS . COURT RE SUMES. (20

MNR. JANSEN ~ U Edele, ek het na oorweging van my posisie

besluit om nie voort te gaan met my intensie om getui enis

omtrent die betrokke s kets aan te bied nie. So, ek neem

aan die verhoor binne In verhoor sal nou verval .

HOE My a s sessore het ek gese hulle kan gaan tot twaalf-

uur . Ek was van mening dat ons aan sou gaan . Hulle mag

miskien in my kantoor weeS e Ek gaan nou verdaag . As hulle

daar is, kom ek direk terug . Die advokate kan korn kyk

om t e sien of di t die moei te werd sal wees om nou te si t

en of ek heelt emal kan loop tot t waalfuur .

MR . BROWDE ~ My Lord , I am terribl y sorry to interrupt

... / Your

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766

Your Lordship. I am. not absolutely - I understand now

My Learned Fri end says that he is not going on with the

sketch plan. I do not know whether I should deal in any

way with this other aspect of this witness's evidence,

namely as a result of information I got, because I want

to make it clear to the Court that - and I told My Learned

Friend this - it is accused no. 4's attitude as well that

he was subjected to force in order to ... (Court inter- '

venes)

COURT ~ As I understood the situation this morning, (10

there were really two aspects. First, you were not going

to argue because of the provision of Section 218.

MR. BROWDE: That is pointing out. I have got no com­

plaints about that.

COURT ~ The only other aspect would then be this sketch

which depended upon whether i t was done voluntarily etc .

and t hat is now off the record?

MR. BROWDE ~ Yes.

COURT ~ In other words, the question which you are not

arguing, which you can put questions to this witness, of(20

course, as much as you like, will be the force used in

order to, as you say, get them to do the pointing out .

MR. BROWDE ~ Yes.

CCURT ~ But even if that force is there, Section 218 says

that it covers the situation.

MR. BROWDE ~ Yes . Perhaps . . . (C ourt intervenes)

COURT ~ And, of course, you can go and argue - rather,

let me put it this way, let me put it to you this way, still

you can put whatever questions you want to to this witness "

when he gives evidence before the full Court , namely that (30

he belaboured either accused no . 4 or no. 5 or both, but

.. . / the

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- 767 - VAN DER WESTHU1ZEN

the fact that he b elaboured , does not make that evidence

inadmissible because of Section 218.

MR. BROWDE ~ As Your Lordship pleases.

COURT: That is, of course, confined to facts which the

police got or the investigating officer got or pointing

out, because the Section specifically deals with those

two facts.

MR. BROWDE ~ Perhaps, My Lord, as Your Lordship has with

respect correctly said, this is a matter for the full

Court any way it seems to me . (10

COURT ~ I think so, unless you want to take the point, but

I think there is no point in taking the point because of

the Section?

MR. BROWDE ~ No, that is perfectly correct, with respect.

So, perhaps that is what we should do.

COURT ADJOURNS . COURT RESUMES.

JOHANNES ABRAHAM VAN DER WESTHUIZEN, nog onder eed

ONDERVRAGIID DEUR MNR . JANSEN (vervolg) ~ Mnr. Van der

Westhuizen , voor u getuienis onderbreek is, het u die Hof

meegedeel dat op 7 Februarie 1980 u telefoniese rapport (20

gemaak het aan luitenant Botha? -- Dit is korrek .

HOF ~ Sek ere inligting as gevolg van sy ondervraging van

beskuldigde nr . 4 te Krugersdorp op 7 Febr uari e oorgedra

aan luitenant Botha t e Springs .

MNR . JANSEN: U het dit telefonies gedoen? -- Dit is kor­

rek.

Het u die beskuldigde later weer ondervra? -- Ten

opsigte van ... (¥mr . Jansen korn tussenbei)

Hierdie betrokke aspek? -- Dit is korrek .

Wanneer was dit? Dit was 25 Februarie .

HOF Beskuldigde nr . ?

... / MNR . JANSEN

(30

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- 768 - VAN DER WESTRUIZEN

MNR . JANSEN ~ Nr . 4 . Ret u In sekere verso ek aan die

beskuldi gde gerig? Dit is korrek .

Wat het u hom gevra? Ek het hom versoek om my na

die punt t e neem wat hy op In vorige geleentheid aan my

beskryf het.

Ret u daarna kontak gemaak met luitenant Botha? -­

Dit is korrek.

Ret die beskuldigde u toe geneem? --' Die beskuldigde

het my toe na Springs geneem waar hy vir luitenant Botha

ontmoet het. Beskuldigde nr. 4 het luitenant Botha ver-(lO

soek om hom na die eerste depot te neem, waarop luitenant

Botha ons na die eerste depot geneem het.

ROF: Is di t In busdepot? Of watse depot is di t? -- Di t

is wapenopslagplek.

MNR . JANSEN ~ Ja? -- Van die punt waar beskuldigde nr. 4

vir my en lui tenant Botha geneem het en uitgewys het as

die eerste opslagplek, het die beskuldigde 50 tre~ na

regs afgetree . Hy het ges e hy kon nie die tweede depot

vind nie, waarop hy na die depot wat deur luitenant Botha

aan ons uitgewys is, teruggekeer het en 50 tre~ na die (20

linkerkant afgetree het, waar die beskuldigde aan my n punt

uitgewys het.

Wat kon u sien by die punt? -- Dit was duid elik by

hierdie punt gewees dat daar n depot was of In opslagplek .

Wat kon u daar sien? -- Daar was In gat gewees.

U Edele, ek wil nou inhandig n bundel gemerk Springs

foto - album . Dit sal wees BEWYSSTUK AF .

Luitenant, ek wil h~ u moet kyk na foto 15 in BEWY§­

STUK AF . Dit is n foto waarop beskuldigde nr. 4 verskyn.

Dit is korrek .

Is dit die punt wat hy aan u uitgewys het soos so pas

/ deur

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- 769 - VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

deur u beskryf? -- Dit is korrek.

HOF: Is dit die punt 50 passe na links? -- Dit is korrek .

MNR.JANSEN ~ Foto 16, is dit n nader foto waar beskul­

digde dieselfde punt as foto 15 uitwys? -- Dit is korrek.

Het u die beskuldigde daarna weer ondervra? -- Dit

is korrek.

Wanneer en waar? -- Dit was 5 Maart. Ek het die

beskuldigde te Kompolgebou ondervra. Die beskuldigde het

sekere rapporte aan my gemaak. Ek het die beskuldigde

versoek om my na sekere punte te neem, wat hy aan my (10

beskryf het of wat hy aan my genoem het tydens die onder­

vraging.

Waaroor het u hom ondervra? -- Ek het die beskuldigde

ondervra ten opsigte van teikens vir aanvalle.

U het die versoek aan die beskuldigde gerig en hy het

toe geneem, s~ u. Waarheen het hy u eerstens geneem? -­

Die beskuldigde het my eerstens geneem na die Pretoria-we s

Suid-Afrikaanse Polisiestasie wat hy aan my uitgewys het

as n teiken wat aangeval moes word .

MR . BROWDE: I am sorry, My Lord. That is not admissible . (20

MNR. JANcEN ~ Ek gee dit toe, U Edele. Dit moet geskrap

word. Hy het die polisiestasie uitgewys .

Daarna? -- Daarna het die beskuldigde my na Villieria

Polisiestasie geneem wat hy aan my uitgewys het .

En daarna? -- Daarna het die beskuldigde .my geneem

na die petrolopgaartenks te Waltloo, Silverton.

Wat het hy daar aan u uitgewys? -- Die beskuldigde

het aan my die petrolopgaartenks uitgewys.

U Edele, ek handig nou weer in n foto-album gemerk

Silverton MR445/01/80 . Dit sal wees BEWYSSTUK AG. (30

Ek wil h~ u moet kyk na foto 16, mnr . Van der Westhuizen .

... / Wat

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,.

..

- 770 - VAN DER WESTHUI ZEN

Wat dui di t aan? - - Foto 16 t oon Pre t oria- Wes Po1isie­

stasie aan.

Met beskuldigde nr. 4? -- Met beskuldigi e nr . 4 .

Foto 17? -- Toon Vi11ieria Polisiestasie aan met

beskuldigd e.

Nr. 4? -- Nr . 4.

Foto nr. 18? Toon die petrolopgaartenks te Waltloo

Silverton aan met die beskuldigde.

En l8(A)? -- Toon ook die petrolopgaartenks met die

beskuldigd e van In ander punt gesien . (10

U het nie die beskuldigde daarna verder ondervra nie?

Dit is korrek.

Beskuldigde nr. 5. U het reeds die Hof meegedeel dat

u hom op 29 Januarie ondervra het. Wanneer het u hom weer

ondervra na die voorval, na die 29ste? - - Op 1 Februarie ,

9 Februarie, 15 Febr uarie, 25 Februar i e weer.

1 Febr uarie, waar het u hom ondervr a? Ek h et hom

t e Kompolgebou , Pre t ori a ondervra .

lnsake wat? - - Ek h et die beskuldigde ondervra ten

opsi gte van t eikens vir aanvalle. (20

En t oe ? Wat het g ebeur ? -- Die beskuldi gde het a an

my In r appor t g emaak , waarop ek hom v ersoek het om my na

die punt e t e neem waarna hy i n sy r apport verwys het ,

waarop hy my na Waltloo, Silvert on geneem het .

Wat het hy daar aan u uitgewys ? -- "Die beskuldig de

het daar aan my die pe t rolopgaar t enks uitgewys , spesif iek

die wat in gebr ui k i s deur Mobil .

Nog iets? -- Die beskuldi gd e het aan my beweer . ..

(Mnr . Jans en kom tussenbei)

Nee , moenie s e wat hy aan u beweer het nie. Het hy(30

enigi ets verd er aan u ui tgewys i n die omg ewi ng? -- Die

... / besku1di gd e

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Collection Number: AD2021

SOUTH AFRICAN INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS, Security trials 1958·1982

PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg ©2012

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