2013-12-17 transcript of vleisides show cause hearing
TRANSCRIPT
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURTWESTERN DISTRICT OF MISSOURI
WESTERN DIVISION
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) Case No. 4:11-CR-00125-DKG-1)
Plaintiff, ))
VS. ))
SONNY CHRIS VLEISIDES, )) December 17, 2013
Defendant. ) Kansas City, Missouri
*****************************************
TRANSCRIPT OF SHOW CAUSE HEARINGBEFORE GREG KAYS
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
*****************************************
APPEARANCES:For United States: Kathleen D. Mahoney
U.S. Attorney's Office400 East 9th StreetSuite 5510Kansas City, Missouri 64106
For Defendant: Jeffrey D. Morris[Defendant present.] Shazzie Naseem
Berkowitz, Oliver, Williams,Shaw & Eisenbrandt, LLP
2600 Grand BoulevardSuite 1200Kansas City, Missouri 64108
Regina A. McBride, RDR, CRROfficial Court Reporter
400 East 9th Street, Room 8652Kansas City, MO 64106
816.512.5623
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, transcriptproduced by computer.
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I N D E X
Reporter Certificate - Page 22
WITNESSES:
COURTNEY PIERCEDirect Examination by Ms. Mahoney - Page 5Cross-Examination by Mr. Morris - Page 18
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(Begin proceedings in open court at 2:03 p.m.)
THE COURT: Calling Case 11-125-01, United States of
America versus Sonny Chris, is it Vleisides?
THE DEFENDANT: Vleisides.
THE COURT: Vleisides. Mr. Vleisides appears here
today with his attorneys, Mr. Shazzie Naseem.
Nice to see you again, Mr. Naseem.
MR. NASEEM: Good morning, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And also attorney Mr. Jeff Morris.
MR. MORRIS: Good afternoon, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Good afternoon, sir.
Also appearing today is Assistant United States
Attorney, Kathleen Mahoney, and United States probation
officer, Ms. Courtney Pierce. Welcome to all of you.
This cased is called today for a hearing related to
a violation report filed September 3rd, 2013. And so this
Court is going to conduct a hearing to determine whether or
not Mr. Vleisides is in violation of his supervised release.
Mr. -- who will -- who's leading the charge here for
Mr. Vleisides? Mr. Naseem or Mr. Morris?
MR. MORRIS: Your Honor, I will.
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
MR. MORRIS: Jeff Morris.
THE COURT: Mr. Morris, would you like us to
formally advise him of the allegations in the September 3rd
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violation report, sir?
MR. MORRIS: Your Honor, we'll waive a reading of
the formal allegations. We've been through that report a
number of times with Mr. Vleisides and the Court is aware that
we filed an opposition as well as a supplemental pleading
today.
THE COURT: Yes, sir. I have reviewed all the
filings in this case, including the filing today, which is
document 23. I've reviewed all that.
Very well then. Ms. Mahoney, do you wish to present
evidence?
MS. MAHONEY: Yes, Your Honor. Call Courtney
Pierce.
THE COURT: Ms. Pierce, would you please come
forward, face our clerk, and raise your right hand and be
sworn?
COURTNEY PIERCE, GOVERNMENT WITNESS, SWORN
THE COURT: And Ms. Pierce, if you'll come forward
and sit over here in the witness chair, please. Good
afternoon, Ms. Pierce.
THE WITNESS: Hello. Good afternoon.
THE COURT: Would you please begin by speaking your
full name and spelling your last name for us?
THE WITNESS: Yes. It's Courtney Pierce.
P-I-E-R-C-E.
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THE COURT: Thank you, Ms. Pierce.
Ms. Mahoney?
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. MAHONEY:
Q. Ms. Pierce, how long have you been supervising
Mr. Vleisides?
A. I have been supervising him throughout the duration of the
supervision of September 2010 is when it began.
Q. And it was transferred here from the Central District of
California?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. All right. And so that was in 2010 that it was
transferred here?
A. He actually immediately came here, because this is where
his ties were. It was eventually transferred here --
Q. Okay.
A. -- to our jurisdiction.
Q. And you have been the officer on the case for that
duration then?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Let me ask you about a -- Mr. Vleisides has a
company called Butterfly Labs of which he is a partial owner;
is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that his primary source of income that you are
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aware of?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. All right. And have you talked to somebody at PayPal
about complaints involving that company?
A. Yes, ma'am. Chad Williams, who is -- he's in global asset
protection there.
Q. And could you tell Judge Kays something about that
discussion and what PayPal has said and what their reaction to
it is?
A. PayPal is basically a third party vendor, is the best I
can explain it, where customers can make transactions without
giving up their credit card number to different merchants. I
spoke to Chad Williams this morning. He re --
THE COURT: Who's Chad Williams again?
THE WITNESS: He is an employee there at PayPal. He
is a global asset protection officer.
THE COURT: Thank you.
A. This morning he reported that over the course of at least
the past year that PayPal has had a number of complaints
regarding materials purchased by Butterfly -- from Butterfly
Labs to the point where PayPal froze the account that is used
by Butterfly Labs. Reported that they're a huge risk to the
company because the way that they're doing business with
preorders gets outside of PayPal's protection. PayPal
protects the customer's money for 45 days and allows them to
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be able to receive a refund. But he said that the complaints
are coming in months later from people who had purchased
equipment from Butterfly Labs. They originally froze the
account in September 2013. At that time there was
approximately $11 million in -- in the account.
THE COURT: There's 11 -- they have $11 million
frozen in that account?
THE WITNESS: At that time they did. Now he said
that they can only freeze it for so long, and slowly they are
releasing money to -- so that Butterfly Labs can access it.
As of today there's approximately 7 million, because as PayPal
releases the money Butterfly Labs comes and is able to take it
out of their account.
THE COURT: Okay. I have a couple questions about
that. So if there was 11 million, now there's $7 million in
that account?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And so Butterfly Labs -- how do they
access that account? Do they -- is it because the 45 days has
ran, or does Butterfly Labs say, hey, listen, we made customer
John Doe -- we've satisfied him, and so we want to release
that money that John Doe paid in? Or how does that work?
THE WITNESS: Yes. I asked that specific question.
Now the 45 days that is not relevant to the releasing of the
money.
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THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: The 45 days is the customer window to
-- for eBay -- or PayPal to protect their money.
THE COURT: To complain?
THE WITNESS: Yes. But these complaints were coming
in later. He said that they can't hold the money forever and
that they've been in contact with someone at Butterfly Labs,
and as they make the customers whole PayPal is releasing the
money.
THE COURT: Did they suggest to you how they make
the customers whole? Is it a refund of money? What is it?
THE WITNESS: He was not aware.
THE COURT: Okay. I'm sorry.
Q. Okay. And you had initially brought this report and
recommended revocation or extension of supervision in
September, and you spoke with Mr. Williams today. Have the
complaints continued or have they been resolved since
September?
A. He said that the complaints have continued to come in. He
specifically noted that, at the time we talked, which was
10:30 this morning, three complaints had come in regarding
Butterfly.
THE COURT: Three additional complaints?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. Today?
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A. Yes. He wasn't able to look at everything, but there's
been a total of over 6,000 complaints, and between November
11th and today, it was more than 200. So they continue to
come in.
Q. And what is PayPal's course of action that they are going
to take with Butterfly Labs? You talked about the freezing of
the account. Are they going to do business with Butterfly
Labs in the future?
A. No. Butterfly Labs is permanently barred from accepting
PayPal as payment for their products.
Q. Why is that?
A. He said that it's too risky. It poses a risk to them,
PayPal, and they're just not willing to -- to take it.
Q. Is that because of this model of this preorder without
shipping date and --
A. That coupled with the volume of complaints.
Q. Okay. Now, when this hearing was set over the last time,
and the parties had agreed that we would set it over in an
attempt to resolve it. And you had requested some documents
from Mr. Vleisides and had asked some questions through his
attorney; is that right?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. All right. And I believe that list of questions and the
documents sought were attached to the suggestions filed today
by Mr. Vleisides' attorneys. Did you receive a -- what had
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been a recently filed tax return from 2012 of Mr. Vleisides?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. And did those tax returns, both the personal and
business, reflect that Mr. Vleisides had made approximately
$26,000 a year or something like that?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And yet he had lived in what you described as a very nice
house and drove a nice car; was that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. So how -- how was the car and the house and
the furnishings of the house provided?
A. They were all company provided. The -- the residence, I
believe, is valued at approximately $380,000, along with the
furnishings and the car.
Q. Okay. So the company bought Mr. Vleisides's house, car
and furnishings?
A. That is my understanding.
Q. And they own it?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you aware of anybody else using these except him?
A. My belief is that Mr. Vleisides is the sole occupant. He
has reported to me in the past that if business partners come
into town that they may stay there --
Q. Okay.
A. -- on overnights.
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Q. Okay. But he -- in any case, he did not declare any of
that as his personal income?
A. I do not believe so, no.
Q. And the business sustained a loss, was that right, in
2012?
A. Yes.
Q. According to their own tax return and financial statement?
A. Yes. I believe the tax return company loss was around
$800,000.
Q. Okay. And is that another concern that you had was the
financial statement versus the tax return?
A. Yes. Mr. Vleisides provides periodic financial statements
to me, and the one he provided -- the last one he provided
regarding the company loss I believe he reported it at
approximately $140,000.
Q. And what did the loss amount reflect for the tax return?
A. $863,000.
Q. And are -- do you understand why there's that large
discrepancy --
A. I do not.
Q. -- over $600,000?
A. I do not.
Q. Okay. Were you also made aware that the company, although
losing money, had loaned money to shareholders?
A. I was.
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Q. And -- and Mr. Vleisides is one of those shareholders?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And did you ask for documentation on that?
A. On the loan?
Q. Right.
A. I do not believe there was any documentation available.
Q. So -- and the loans were -- when were those made, if you
know?
A. I don't know.
Q. Okay. But they were undocumented loans?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. All right. And what was the reason given of loaning money
to shareholders?
A. I believe it was based on future profitability.
Q. Okay. So the company was losing money and yet loaning
money to its shareholder at future profitability?
A. That is my understanding.
Q. Okay. And this was during the time where they had these
thousands and thousands of complaints?
A. Yes.
Q. Through just one vendor?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Or one payment acceptance. What is your understanding on
the rate of interest? Was it a market rate or below market?
A. My understanding is that it was below.
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Q. Was it less than one percent?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And, again, was this declared as income on
Mr. Vleisides' tax returns?
A. No. And on his financial statements he provided to me, I
do not recall ever seeing where he received $65,000.
Q. Okay. So he's supposed to report to you because he's on
supervision for financial crimes; is that right?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Okay. So he was supposed to report to you whether he
received loans?
A. Well, I periodically ask for documents where it would have
been included.
Q. And you --
THE COURT: So we're clear, there's a condition of
supervised release. What condition is that where he has to
provide some transparency as to his financial dealings?
THE WITNESS: Well, especially as related to
business. He has to make the probation office aware. I'll
get the exact for you.
THE COURT: And the reason I'm asking this, it says
on the one that we're on, September 3rd, 2013, we're
proceeding on a violation of a condition. The last part of
that condition relates to giving you access upon your request,
it sounds like. Is there a special condition where he has to
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provide you information without you requesting it?
THE WITNESS: Not -- not without me requesting.
However, I did request from him.
THE COURT: Okay.
Q. Okay. Is there also -- did you request information about
business ownership interest he had?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And then did you see in the recently filed tax return that
he had ownership interest in a Bahamas corporation?
A. That is what I believe I saw, yes.
Q. Okay. And could you just tell Judge Kays a little bit
about that, please?
A. The -- one of the documents requested from Mr. Vleisides
was a copy of his 2012 tax returns. He filed those and then
provided me a copy. On one page I noticed a report, or at
least a reference to a business named Future Engineering, and
then it has international in parentheses.
Q. And what -- what part of the tax return is that,
Ms. Pierce?
A. It's Form 5471.
Q. Okay. Go ahead. And you said it's listed as the name of
the company?
A. Yes. It says the date of incorporation is 11-2 of 2012,
and the country under whose laws incorporated, it says
Bahamas, which is not something I was aware of.
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Q. Okay. So when you had asked for business interests, this
was not disclosed to you?
A. No, ma'am.
Q. What is it that you're requesting from the Court?
A. I'm requesting 24 months of additional supervision.
Q. Could you explain why that is?
A. Just with the -- the red flags that have been presented
here, coupled with Mr. Vleisides' history, his -- his criminal
history are cause for concern. We didn't get to go into --
the PayPal is not the only place we have received complaints
from. There is Consumer Sentinel is a law enforcement website
where people can get online and submit complaints about
different companies. As of October 18th of this year there
had been 173 complaints submitted online to Consumer Sentinel,
with a total of over $600,000 complained to being losses from
Butterfly Labs.
So when you look at what's going on with PayPal, and
what's going on with Consumer Sentinel, I've taken the
customer list provided to me by Mr. Vleisides and cross
referenced with some of the names that are complaining, and
those people are coming up as customers. It's matching up.
And so when you have these huge losses and so many unknowns,
this business who's loaning cash without documents and putting
him up in a relatively expensive home on a low salary and
still reporting losses, to me those are all red flags that
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show that he needs a little bit more supervision so that the
probation office can determine that Butterfly Labs and
Mr. Vleisides are on par and that everything is -- is legal.
Q. And just to follow-up a little bit, when a customer
complains, what -- part of what Butterfly Labs sells involves
bitcoin mining, something of that nature?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And when somebody preorders, is that an item that
costs $50 or thousands of dollars?
A. My -- my understanding from looking online is that there
is a smaller bitcoin miner that maybe a few hundred dollars,
like in the 200s. But the loss can be -- I mean, some of the
machines might be $5,000. I --
Q. Okay.
A. That's the top one, but don't quote me.
THE COURT: And I note in the affidavit filed by
Ms. Drake, which is document 20-5, she claims that the prices
for the products range anywhere from $274 to $22,484. Are you
aware of any of the -- are any of these complaints related to
the high end units of $22,000, or do you know?
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
THE COURT: Okay.
THE WITNESS: What I remember is a range.
THE COURT: Okay. Please proceed.
MS. MAHONEY: Okay. I don't have any further
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questions, Judge.
THE COURT: I have just a couple questions then I'll
let Mr. Morris cross.
So did Mr. Vleisides request permission from you to
engage in this business of Butterfly Labs?
THE WITNESS: Yes. He -- I was involved all along.
I can remember him talking about it and talking about getting
investors. However, I was not fully informed of the nature
that the orders would come in. That would have caused me
concern.
THE COURT: So you -- you're saying that you gave
him approval then to undertake this Butterfly Labs business,
but you -- you don't -- you feel like you were misled as to
the type of -- how they would raise money? Or what are you
saying?
THE WITNESS: Yeah. He -- he gets his -- in a
normal business where you -- you buy and sell, I would have
been okay with for him. I was not aware that customers would
be paying money and waiting, from what I'm told, six to eight
months or even a year. That puts it into a more gray area.
THE COURT: And this other business, this Bahamas
corporation, Future Engineering, did you -- did he request
from you permission to engage in that business?
THE WITNESS: No, I've never heard of that.
THE COURT: Okay. That's all the questions I have.
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Mr. Morris?
MR. MORRIS: Thanks, Judge.
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. MORRIS:
Q. Ms. Pierce, we met before the hearing, but you and I
haven't met before nor have we talked?
A. No.
Q. Okay. I'm going to try to break this into three kind of
general categories: Some general information, the violation
report, and then some of what you talked about on your direct
examination with government counsel about a conversation you
had today with PayPal. It was kind of hard to prepare for
that because it didn't happen until today.
A. Right.
Q. Fair enough?
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. I believe you said in your direct exam that you
have been supervising, I call him Sonny --
THE COURT: Mr. Morris, let me -- let me stop you
real quick. I'm sorry to interrupt you.
MR. MORRIS: Of course. Absolutely.
THE COURT: But, you know, in fairness to your
client, I didn't know about this PayPal conversation today.
It sounds like it was a follow-up conversation. But if you
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wanted some more time to investigate this, I would continue
this case, at your convenience, so you can follow-up on this
PayPal issue. Because, in fairness, this is a concerning
thing; right?
MR. MORRIS: Sure.
THE COURT: And so -- but I didn't know about this
either, so I'll leave that up to you and your client.
MR. MORRIS: Well, I'm glad that you brought that
up, Judge, and excuse us.
THE COURT: Yeah.
MR. MORRIS: I had intended, based upon what was
said today, to go ahead and examine on some of the things that
were in the violation report.
THE COURT: Sure.
MR. MORRIS: Because there's a -- there's -- there's
a lot to be said about that --
THE COURT: Sure.
MR. MORRIS: -- that I think is very favorable for
my client. With regards to the PayPal issue that was just
brought up today, I -- that is contrary to some of the
information that I've learned, and not from Mr. Vleisides,
from company counsel and others with the company, and I had
intended to ask the judge for the opportunity to have some
time to respond to that and to develop --
THE COURT: Sure.
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MR. MORRIS: -- more additional information. So if
the Court would like me to do that first, and then reconvene
this hearing, I'll do whatever the Court wants.
THE COURT: Well, I -- since you're the one who's
kind of put in a bad place here, I'm going to be -- whatever
you want to do, Mr. Morris. If you want to talk to your
client about that, I'll give you some time. But I'm going to
accommodate your request in that regard. Because it is --
well, and let me go back through here. So -- yeah. That --
that's important information. But there's also other
important information. So do you want some time to talk to
your client about that or?
MR. MORRIS: Just briefly, Judge.
THE COURT: Okay. Sure. Sure. Yes, sir.
MR. MORRIS: My client is very interested in, of
course, explaining the PayPal situation to address questions
of the Court, the Court that's deciding whether his
supervision should end or continue or be revoked.
THE COURT: Sure. Yes, sir.
MR. MORRIS: So we -- we are asking for that
opportunity, Judge. And I'm willing to -- to do this one of
two ways. One, if you're -- if you're willing to give us a
continuance, we're happy to come back --
THE COURT: Yeah.
MR. MORRIS: -- and do whatever you want. If you'd
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like me to conduct some of this examination now, I can, or
just wait. Whatever you want.
THE COURT: I think it would be more beneficial to
you and your client if you would wait, just because the judge
takes good notes.
MR. MORRIS: Okay. That's fine.
THE COURT: But sometimes he forgets.
MR. MORRIS: Then we will wait. And Judge, I will
tell, you we do not need much time to put together responsive
information.
THE COURT: Okay.
MR. MORRIS: And certainly your -- your schedule
will dictate. But I don't think that we need much time.
THE COURT: Okay. Well, Ms. Francis is the keeper
of the --
MR. MORRIS: Okay.
THE COURT: -- docket for me, and I would get in
deep trouble if I tried to set anything now. But we will
accommodate your schedule, of course, the best we can. So at
this time I will show that this case is continued and to
address these issues related to this new information as to
PayPal or any other issues you deem appropriate. And
obviously we want open communication between both sides,
and -- and I will, for the record, say that this is -- given
the nature of the type of case which your client is placed on
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supervision for, it would be very concerning to the Court if
there was this type of millions of dollars of problems; right?
And you -- I think you understand that. So, but yeah, I'd be
very interested to learn more about this. Okay?
MR. MORRIS: Very good.
THE COURT: This case is continued. Thank you.
(Proceedings concluded at 2:29 p.m.)
C E R T I F I C A T E
I CERTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING IS A CORRECT TRANSCRIPT FROM
THE RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS IN THE ABOVE-ENTITLED MATTER.
/s/Regina A. McBride, RDR, CRR December 20, 2013REGINA A. MCBRIDE, RDR, CRR DATEOfficial Court Reporter
Case 4:11-cr-00125-DGK Document 26 Filed 12/20/13 Page 22 of 22