1883.

VICTORIA.

BALLAARAT WEST ELECTION.

REPORT FROM

THE COMlHTTEE OF ELECTIONS AND QU ALI]'ICATIONS,

UPON THE

PETITION OF CHARLES EDWIN JONES, AGAINST THE RETURN OF

GEORGE RANDALL FINCHAM, FOR THE

ELECTORAij DISTRICT OF BALLAAR.AT vVEST, TOGETHER WITH THE

PROCEEDINGS OF THE CO:MMITTEE AND MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Ordered by tloe Legislative Assembly to be printed, 28th August, 1883.

)J~ autl)or{tp : JOHN FERRES, GOVERNMENT PRINTER, MELBOURNE.

2 S.-D.-No 3,

EXTRACTED FROM THE VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS.

WEDNESDAY, 18TH JULY, 1883.

'2. THF. Colllli!ITTEE OF ELECTIONS AND QUALIFICATIO~<s.-Tbe followim; 'V arrant appointing" The Committee of Elections and Qualifications" was laid upon the Table of the Assembly by Mr. Speaker, VIZ.:-

VICTORIA.

Pursuant to the provisions of the Act of the Legislative Council of Victoria, passed in the ninetef)nth year of Her pre~ent Majesty's reign, intituled "An Act to prmJide for the election of liJemoers to serve in the Legislative Council "and Legi•lative Assend.dy cif Victoria respect.velg," I do hereby appoint-

Geor~e Selth Coppin, Esquire, The Honorable Alfred Deakin, The Honorable Waiter ~Madden, .Tohn Mclntyrt>, :Esquire, Thompson ::\lom·e, Esquire, The Honomhle Jarnes l~rown Patterson, James Henry Wheeler, Esquire,

to be members of a Committee to be called "The Committee of Elections and Qualifications." Given under my hnnd this eighteenth day of July, One thousand eight hundred and eighty-three.

THURSDAY, 26TH JULY, 1883.

PETER LALOR, Speaker,

"2. THE ColDIITTEE OF ELECTIONS AND QUALIFICATJOr<s -George Selth Coppin, Esquire, the Honorable Alfred Deakin, the Honorable 'Waiter Madden, Thompson Moore, Esquire, the Honornble James Brown I>atterson. and James Henry 'Vheeler, Esquire, who had been appointed members of "The Committee of Elections and Qualifications," took the oath required by Act 19 Victoria, No. 12, at the Table of the Assembly, before the Clerk ; and then Mr. 8J>en.ker appointed Tuesday next, at Three o'clock as the time, ami the North Lobby in the Parliament House as the place, of the first meeting of the said Committee.

3. THE CmmiTTER OF :ELECTioNs AND Qu,\LIFICATIONS.-,rr. Service moved, That the Petitions complaining of the return of .Tames Shaekell and of George Handall Fincham, which were presented to tbe House b.v Mr. Speaker during the last session of Parliament, be referred to "The Committee of Elections and Qualifications."

Question--put and resolved in the affirmative.

8. TnE Co~DUTTEE Ol!' ELECTIONS AND QuALIFICATIONs.-John Mclntyre, Esquire, who had been appointed a member of "The Committee of Elections and Qualifications," took the oath required by Act 19 Victoria, No.l2, at the Table of the Assembly, before the Clerk.

p,.,.j\llmtlon •• Prmtmg (760 copies)

APPROXt:\IATE COST OF REPORT.

Total

£ P. d. 6 6 0

43 0 0

£49 6 0

REPORT.

THE CoMMITTEE OF ELECTIONS AND QuALIFICATIONS have the honour t(}

report that they have determined-

1. That George Randall Fincham, Esq., is duly elected a Member to serve

in this present Parliament for the Electoral District of Eallaarat 'V est.

Legislative Assembly,

Committee-room, 28th August, 1883.

V

PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE.

TUESDAY, 31ST JULY 1883 •

"Mr. Deakin, :3-i"r. Coppin, Xr. W. Madden, 1\Ir. Mcintyre,

.At embers present: Mr. Moore, Mr. Patterson, Mr. Wheeler.

The extract from the Votes and Proceedings of the 18th July instant, appointing the Committee of Elections and 'Qualifications, was read by the Clerk.

Mr. Deakin wllS called to the chair. The Petitions complaining of the return of James Shackell for the Electoral District of Rodney, and of George

Ra.nda.ll Fiucham for the Electoral District of Ballarat West, were laid before the Committee and read. The following appearances were laid before the Committee and read :-

In the matter of the Petition of \Villiam Telford \V ebb against the return of Mr. James Shackell for the Electoral District of Rouney.

To the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly.

SIR, I beg to inform you that I am instructed by l\fr. W. T. Webb, the Petitioner, to appear as agent

in support of the above-mentioned Petition before the Election and Qualifications Committee. I have the honour to be, Sir,

Yours obediently, THEODORE FINK,

45 Collins-street west, Melbourne. Solicitor and Parliamentary Agent.

SIR, 46 Elizabeth-street, Melbourne, lOth July, 1883,

In the matter of the Petition of W. T. Webb against Jas. Shackell. I beg to inform you that I am instructed by Mr .• Tames Shackell, of Echuca, Y.P.for Rodney, to appear

to oppose the Petition lodged herein, and that Mr. \V ebb, Q.C., and :3-fr. Box will appear before the Election and Qualification Committee as counsel on behalf of tbe said James Shackell.

I remain, Sir,

G. Il. Jenkins, Esq., Clerk of the Legislative Assembly, l'arliament House, t:lpring-street, Melbourne.

Your obedient servant,

T. J. WYBURN.

IN r ~\.HLIAME~T: SESSIO:)f 1883.-LEGISLATIVE ASSE"jfBLY.

Re BALLARAT WEST ELECTION P.E'UTION. SIR,

I have the honour t.o notify you hereby that the undermentioned will appear as counsel anu agent for the Petitioner, Charles Edwin Jones, Esq., before the Committee of Elections and Qualifications.

Counsel: Alexander Grant Mc[ntyre, Esq.,l3arrister-at-law. Agent: William Davies, certified l'<lrliam<:ntary Agent, 59 Quec>n-street, Melbourne.

To the Clerk of the Legislntive A•semhly attending the Elections and Qualifications Committee.

Dated this 30th day of J11ly, 1883.

I am, Sir, Your obedient servant,

\Y).I. DA VIES.

Ordered-That the consideration of the Petitions be proceeled with in the oruer in which they were laid before the Rouse by Mr. Speaker.

The Committee agreed to the following preliminary resolutions:-1. That counsel will not b~ nllowed to go into matters not referre<l to in their opening statement without a

spech<l application to the Committee for permission to do so. 2. That, if costs be ucmand••d by either p:trty, the question must be raiscl immediately after the decision on that

particular ease, unless the Committee shall otherwise decide. 3. That the Committee expect that, with respect to cases of bribery, or off<Jrs or promises of money or other

valuable consideration which it is intended to bring home to the sitting member or his agents, the counsel for the Petitioner will now state the names of the electors bribed, or to whom such offers were so made, and those of the persons who actun.lly gave the bribes, or offered so to uo.

4. The Committee, however, reserve to themselves a power, upon the special >tpplication of counsel, to proceed with any case which tenus to inculpate any principal or agent, the lnmwledgc of which case has been brought ont before the Committee in the progress of the investigation, with the circumstances of which the parties could not he rcasonnbly suppo.sed to have hecn previously cognizant.

5. That with respect to treating, the Committee will expect counsd to state the times and plttces where sneh trenting is alleged to haYe taken place.

6. That with re,pect to undue inllneuce, the Committee will require to be furnished with n list of the persons who arc alleged to have been su!Jjcctcd to such undue influence, and aloo with tt list of those who n.rc alleged to h:we cxereiscd it.

7. The Committee, however, t•cscrYe to themselves 11. uiscrctionnry power, as in C!lSCS of bribery. 8. That no person shnll he examined as a witness who slmll have hc.-n in the room during any part of the

proeeeuin14s with the exception of the agents, whcse names shall be handed in, without the special leave ot' the Committee.

9. Thnt the Committee will only allnw one counsel to address them on opening the case, and one couns~l on the summing·up.

vi

10. That if any point of law should arise requiring argument, the Committee reserve to themselves the power­of hearing only one counsel on each side.

ll. That, if the leading counsel be not prepared to sum up the ease on either side when the eviuenee is terminated, the Committee will not protract the proceedings for the convenience of counsel who may be­absent.

12. That the practice of courts of law as to speeches be followed in this case. 13. That, with respect to objected votes, the Committee expect counsel to exhaust one class of objections before­

proceeding to another. 14. That the p~titioners or their counsel shall, before the Committee enter upon the inqniry, state the names

of the witnesses they purpose calling, but, if during the investigation the Committee should consider further evidence necessary, such other witnesse:> aa the Committee may deem requisite may be examined.

Parties called in and informed thereof. ,

The Cilairman stated that if the proceed with the inquiry to-morrow.

RODNEY ELECTION PETITION. Petitioner against tile return of Mr. Slmckell was ready, the Committee would

Mr. T. Jl'ink, wilo appeareu as agent for the Petitioner, objected to proceeding with the case to-morrow, as he­required further time to secure the attendance of witnesses and the production of certain documents.

Mr. Wyburn, who appeareu as agent for the sitting member, objected to the request of Mr. Fink, and urged the Committee to proceed with the inquiry to-morrow.

After hearing further arguments, Room cleared. The Committee deliberated. Resolved~ That the Committee would proceed with the hearing of the Rodney Election Petition on 'l'ilursday nex:t~

at one o'clock. Parties called in and informed thereof. Mr. ~·. Fink applied for subprenas to secure the attendance of certain witnesses. The Chairman stated that ::\[r. l''ink's request would be complied with on his handing in to the Clerk a list of the

witnesses whom he wished to have summoned.

B.\LLA.\R.\T WEST ELECTIOX PETITION.

Mr. A. G. Melntyre, who appeared as counsel for the Petitioner, requested that the Committee would not proceed with the hearing of the Ballarat West J;~lection Petition until next Wednesday week.

Mr. G.lt. Fincham, the sitting member, who appeared in person, objected to the delay asked for by )Ir. A. G. )lcintyre. After deliberating, the Chairman informed parties that the Committee would proceed with the hearing of this case

on Tuesday next, at eleven o'clock. Mr. A. G. Mclntyrc applied for subpnmas to secure the attendance of certain witnesses. The Chairman stated that Mr. A. G. Mcintyre's request would be complied with on his handing in to the Clerk a list.

of the witnesses whom he wished to have summoned. Ordered-That the Chairman be empowered to send for persons, p!!pers, and records.

Committee adjourned until to-morrow, at half-past three o'clock.

TUESDAY, 7TII AUGUST, 1883.

111 embers present:

Mr. Coppin, MR. DEAKI:!',

1

in the Chair; Mr. \Y. ~Iadden, Mr. ~Iclntyre, Mr. ~Ioore, )1r. Patterson, Mr. \V'heeler.

The Petition of Char1cs Edwin Joncs against the return of Georgc Ranuall Fincham was read, and is as follows:­To the Honorable Peter Lalor, Spealter of the Legislative Assemb'y of Victoria.

The Petition of Charles Edwin Jones, of the Quarries, Abbotsforu, near 1\felbourne, in the colour of Victoria, lecturer,

RESPECTFGLLY Sl!EWETU~ That on the twenty-second day of February last past an election was held for three 1\Iembers to serve in this,

present Parliament, in the Legislative Assembly, for the Electoral District of Ballamt West. That vour Petitioner was a candidate nt the said election. That as the resu1t of the saiil election the Returning Officer publicly ueclared that William Collard Smith,

Henry Bell, and George Ruuuall J!'incham, Esquires, had received the majority of votes and were duly elected as Members as aforesaid, anJ made his return accordingly.

That on ttw taking of the poll for the said election divers votes for the said George Randall Fincham were improperly admitted anu counted therent, and divers votes for your Petitioner were improperly rejected, set aside,, anu not conntetl at all.

TlHtt at the said election divers electors were personated anu their votes reeordeu or counted for the said George Handull Fincham, and that divers electors so personated subsequently applieu to the deputy retnrning officers, in their respective polling booths, to be permitted to poll, being desirou,, as your Petitiouer is informed and believes, to vote for your Petitioner, and that saicl voters were refuseu ballot, papers, or, being allowed ballot-papers'" anu having voted for your l'etitioner, their said votes were not counted in the final computation wherefrom the returning: officer aforesaid declared that the said George Uandall Fincham had polled the same number of votes with yonr Petitioner, anu thereupon, under a misapprehension, wrongfully ga.ve his casting vote to the said Georgc Hanrlall Fincham, whereby the s:tiu George Handall Fincham is wrongfully returneu as one of the Members for the said Electoral District of Ballarat \Vest to the exclusion of your Petitioner, for whom the largest number of votes had be<:n truly polled.

That, in the taking of the said poll of the electors of Ballarat \Vest, divers bnllot-papers which were polled on behalf of your Petitioner were wrongfully declared informal, and were not counted in the computation of votes polled on behalf of your Petitioner, whereby the actu.'tl vote polleu on behalf of your Petitioner was under­estimatc<1, anu so many votes omitted from the count in his behalf as would, if the count were now fairly made, result in giving the return for the Electoral District of Ballarat \Vest to your Petitioner, setting nside the colomble· majority on ,vhich the said Gcorge Handalll<'incharu has been wrongfully declared one of the Members elcet for the sail! electoral district.

'l'lmt at the sail! election divers electors were personated and. votes eolorab1y given at the said poll for the said Gcorgc Handall Fincham, some of the persons falsely represented as being present and voting being absent, and others <lctt<l; and that sucil votes should for such reasons be dcclareu null and voiu and struck from the said poll for the sai<l electoral district.

Timt divers votes were given at the said election by persons not of age, and therefore not entitled to vote in the, said Electonll District of Hallarat \Vest at the time indicated, and that ui vers votes were wrongfully given by persons by ''irt.ne of electors' rights which were obtained by or for them before they had attained the age of twenty-one, whereby the s~id George Randall Finclmm obtained an apparent and colorable majority only, whereas in truth and in fact your l:'~titione1·l!ad a majority of the votes of the electors truly voted in the sail! Electoral District of Ballarat '\Vest at the said election over the said Gcorge Randall ~'incham, and was dnly elected as o. 1\Iembcr to serve in. J>arJiament for tile saki district, and ought to have been returned as such 2\Iember.

vii

That divers votes, which your Petitioner is informed and believes were properly tendered on behalf of your Petitioner in the polling booths m•arest to the residences of the voters so voting for your Petitioner in the said election for Ballarat "West, were afterwards voted a second and in some cases n third time for the said George Handall Fincham during the said election iu other poiling booths in the same division, and were wrongfully counted to the detriment of your Petitioner.

Thnt divers Yotes were tendered and received in favour of the said Gcorge Randall Fiucham, from persons not resident within the division or divisions wherein such votes were so tendered and received, ami th:~t such votes were wrongfully counted in favour of the said Gem·ge Randall Fincham, thereby giving him a colorable majority, whereas the actual majority of votes truly polled will be found to be in favour of your Petitioner.

Tl1at divers votes were teudered by and received from aliens not naturalized ~ubjects of Her Majesty during the said eleetion, and wrongfully cour1ted on behalf of the said George Handall J!'incham, thereby giving him a. colorahle majority, whereas the aetual majoricy of votes truly polled was in favour of your Petitioner.

That error• in computation wero made in divers polling booths, whereby votes properly temlererl and rluly received on behalf of your Petitioner were not properly counted, whereby the said George Hand(~ll l'iucham wall' made to appear to have receil·ed a larger number of votes than your l'etitioncr, for whom in reality the larger number of votes was polled.

Your Petitioner therefore respectfully prays that you will communicate the matter of this Petition to the I,egislative Assembly, in order that the same be referred to the Committee of I<~lections and Qualifications, and prays that all and every the ballot papers used, not used, and set aside at the taking of the poll at such election for Ballarat West may be again respectivdy examined and tallied 'vith the poll books used thereM; and that the votes in such ballot papers be again counted and that those improperly admitted in such taking of the poll be now rejected and struck out. and that those erroneously rejected or set aside at such taking of the poll !Je also now admitted and counted as good votes; and that all sueh electors as were refused ballot-papers during the said election in consequence of their vot<>s having been polled by personation may now be admitted to vote according to their intention, and that the votes given colorably for the electors who were so personated or were otherwise wrongfully given be struck out; and that it may be declared that the said George Randall Fincham was not duly elected, and that your Petitioner may be declared to have been duly elected at such election and to be the person that ought to have been returned, and that the said return to said writ may be amended accordingly; and that your Petitioner may have such further and other relief as the circumstances of the case may require or as to the said Committee may seem meet.

And your I>etitioner will ever pray, &c., &c. CHARLES EDWIN JONES.

Dated ut l\felboume this thirteenth day of March, Eighteen lmndreil and eighty-three. \Vitness-C. T. Jo:-ms, Tur Paving Works, the Quarries, Abbotsford,

Mr. A. G. Mclntyre appeared as counsel, and Mr. ·w. Davies as agent, for the Petitioner. Mr. G. R. l!'incham, the sitting member, appeared in person. Mr. A. G. l'rlclntyre then made his opening statement, and concluded by asking- that the Committee w'ouhl permit the

ilvidence of certain witnesses whom he would uame to be taken by declaration before justices of the peace at Ballaarat. Mr. J!'incham addressed the Committee in reply to the request of Mr. A. G. Mcintyre. Hoom cleared. The Committee deliberated. Parties called in. The Chairman stated that the Committee had <lecided that the evidence of all witnesses in this case must be taken

before the Committee, at the Parliament House, Melbourne. George Henry J;mkins, Clerk of the Legislative Assembly, sworn, examined by Mr. A. G. Mcintyre,and produced the

writ he had received from His Excellency the Governor, commanding the returning officer for the Electoral District of Ballaarat ·west to proceed to the election of three members for the said district in l!'ehTuary last.

The Chairman then informed Mr. A. G. Mcintyre that it would be necessary for him to hand in to the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly a list of the witnesses to be summoned, and n list of the votes to be objected to by the Petitioner,

Committee adjourned until Tuesday next, at eleven o'clock.

TUESDAY, 14Tu AL"GIIST, 1883 •

• !11 embers present :

:Mr. Coppin, Mr. J\klntyre, J\ir. l'atterson,

Mn. DEAKIS, in the Chair;

J\fr" W. Madden, ~Ir. Moore, J\fr. Wheeler.

Mr. Webb, Q.C., and Mr. Vale with him, appeared as counsel for the sitting member, and Messrs. :Madden and nu tier appeared as agents.

Mr. A. G. J\fcintyre appeared as counsel, and ::\fr. \Vm. Davies as agent, for the Petitinm·r. The Clerk of the Legislative Assembly informccl the Committee that the agent for the l'ditioner had, pursuant to the

directions of the Clutirman, handed in on the itb August instant a list of witnesses to be summoned, together with a list of the votes objected to. Un the day following, the agent had handecl in a second li8t of witnesses, an< I a second Ji8t of votes objected to, shmving the grounds of objection to each vote. lu the list of witnesses handed in on the 8th Auo-ust instant; -<lne of the names had been altered as regards the spelling. In _the list of votes objected to handed in on the smn~ day, a new· name, that of I. J. Jones. had been inserted.

The lists are as follow :-

llanded in on the 7th August, 1883. G. H. JE~KINS,

Clerk of the Legislative Assembly.

IN PAHLIAMEXT-SESSION 1883.

LEGlSLATI VE AssEnnL Y. Before the Elections and Qualifications Committee.

BALLARAT WEST ELECTIO:ll, I,ist of witnesses to be e:xamined in support of l"'elition of Mr. C. E. Jones:-

G. H .• Jcnkins, Esq., Clerk of the Legislative Assembly,

The Under Secretary, C. E. .Joncs, Jnmes Vallins, Charles D. Milne, John Gibb, John C. Gibb, Thomas Mitchell, .lames Shananhan, Hichard Williams, D. Christie, - Honaldson,

Dated this 7th day of August, 1883.

Christopher Bailey, K H. L. Swift, W. Shaw, Oswald Tode, John ;Johnson (alias Dufrccs), John Hremer, Peter Hcim;, Carl Ilartmann, Hobert Swttn, - KinmH•, Alexander Grny, ·waiter Williams, I. J. Joncs.

W::IL DAVIES, Agent for the Petitioner.

viii

Handed in on the ith August, 1883. G. H. ,TE~KINS,

Clerk of the I"egislath·e Assembly. BALLARAT WEST ELECTION.

J"IST Oll' VOTES OBJECTED TO DY TilE PETITIONER.

Name of Voter.

• Tohu Gibb Richard Williams .Tames Shanahan C. Bailey E. H. L. Swifte Oswald Tode ••• .Tohn ,Johnson (alias Dnfrees) John Bremer ... Peter Heinz Car! Hartmann

Division in which Vote recorded •

Ballarat West Proper

" " " 1J " H

·western Road Division

"' " " Ballarat West Proper· Little Beniligo, Ballarut West Proper ... Winters Division Ballamt West Proper

" ,.

"

I No. on Roll.

1335 3837 3379

3408 1730

46 1698 1437

WM. DAVIES, Agentfor C. E. J ones.

Handed in on the 8th August, 1883.

G. H. ,JENIGNS, Clerk of the Legislative Assembly.

IN PARUAMENT-SESSION 1883.

LEGISI.ATIVE AssEMBLY.

Before the Elections and Qualifications Committee. BALLARAT WEST ELECTION,

List of witnesRes to be examined in support of Petition of Mr. C. E. Jones :-G. Il. Jenkins, Esq., Clerk of the Legislative

Assembly, The Under Secretary, C. E. Jones, James Vallin•, Charles D. Milne, John Gibb, John C. Gibb, Thomas Mitehell, James Shananhan, Hichard Williams, D. Christie,

Honaldson, Christopher Bailey,

E. H. L. Swift, "\V. Shaw, Oswald 'I'ode, John Johnson (alias Dufrees), John Bremer, Peter Heinz, Car! Ilartrmmn, Hobert Swan, - Kinane, Alexander Gray, Waiter Williams, I .. J. Jones. William Henry Wooldridge.

Dated this 7th day of August, 1883. WM. DAVIES, Agent for the Petitioner.

Handed in on the 8th August, 1883. G. H .• TENKIKS,

Clerk of the Legisbtive Assembly.

IN P ARLIA:MEKT.-SESSION 1883.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

Before the Elections and Qualifications Committee. DALLARAT WBST ELECTION,

In the matt<>r of the Petition of C. E. ,Jones, complaining of the election of and return of George Randalf Fincbam, J<:squh·e, for Ballarat \Vest.

The following is the List of Voters intended to be objected to, with the several heads of objection distinguished against the names of the V otcrs excepted to, by and on behalf of the Petitioner :-

No.ou Roll.

...

... 3408 1730

46 1698 1437 ...

:H42

No. I.-LisT OF PERSONS WHOSE VOTES WERE !)!PROPERLY ADliiTTED.

Numc of Voter. I Jn what Division. Head of Objection.

-Bailey, Christopher ... \V cstern Road . .. Not upon roll; also disentitled as deputy returning

officer. Swift, E. H. L. ... ... Do . . .. .. . Not upon roll; also disentitled as poll clerk. Tode, Oswald ... ... Ballarat West Proper ... Non-naturalization. • Johnson,.John (alias Dufrees) Do. ... ... Do. Bremer. John ... ... Do. ... ... Do. IIeinz, Peter ... ... llo. ... .. . Do. Hartmann, Car! ... ... Do. ... . .. Do. Joncs, I. J . ... ... ... ... . .. Returning officer's casting vote.

:t\0. 2,-LIST Ol!' PERSONS WHO VOTED OUT OF TIIEHt PROPER D{VISION.

Swifte, E. H. L. ... Ballarat "\Vest Proper •••

Bailey, Cllristopber Ballarat West Proper •••

:1 Not entitled for the ·western Road division, if at all ; but it is objected that, as poll elerk, not entitled to vote.

! Not entitled for the Western Road division, if at all; but it is objected that, as deputy, not entitled to vote.

ix

No, 3.-LlST OF PERSONATED VoTES.

No. on Roll. Name of Voter. In what Division.

1335 Gibb, John ... Ballarat West Proper ... Williams, Richard 3837 ... Do.

3379 1

Shananhan, James ... Do .

'To the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly attending " The Elections and {lualifications Committee."

Dated this 7th day of August, 1883. Hoom cleared. The Committee deliberated. Parties called in.

...

...

By whom personated.

.fohn. G. Gibb . Name at present unknown • James Shananhan, junior.

Yours, &c., WM. DAVillS,

Agent for the Petitioner.

The Chairman stated as follows:-The Committee deliberated upon the points raised upon these documents which .have been handed in by the Petitioner; and it might be as well if he were to point out to the parties that the point involved in the question of lists is a very serious point indeed. The Petitioner hands in on the proper day a list, which is informal, which is not in accordance with the Act ; and it is only on the next day-a day late-that he hauds in a list complying witll the provisions of the Act. It would therefore be in the power of the Committee, if it were acting simply as a court of law, .and judging by the strict letter of the law, to reject the second list altogether ; and, as the first list handed in is informal, that would very seriously prejudice, if it did not altogether overthrow, the case of the Petitioner. llnt the Committee, having deliberated carefully upon the matter, do not desire to judge the case merely upon its technicalities, and have there­fore resoh'ed, after pointing out this matter most emphatically and clearly, to accept the sceond list. In uccepting the second list, however, they noticed two alterations material to the case. The first is the spelling of the name James Shanahan, but misspelt Shauanahan, but, as it is clearly the same person, the Committee have decided to aocept that list. :But the second case is the name of I. J. Jones, returning officer. That is an entirely new name, not in the first list ; and the Committee have decided to strike out the name.

Mr. A. G .lfclntyre wns heard to address the Committee, to contend that the list of names of witnesses was quite sufficient. The Chairman replied that it was the invariable and strict practice in this colony that the lists of all votes upon the

matter for this reason objected to should be hrmded in before the Committee commenced its investigations. Mr. A. G. :Mclntyre stated that he was instructed that Mr. I. J. Jones's name was included in the first list, and

pointed out that :Mr. \Vooldridge's name had been added. The Chairman stated that Mr. Jones's name not being in the first list of persons whose r1ames were objected to, it

eould not now be admitted. Mr. A. G. liclntyre submitted that the sitting member should be now called upon to put in a list of votes to which

.~e objected. Mr. V ale was heard to address the Committee against the application. The Chairman intimated that the Committee considered that the Petitioner should show that he had a case without

.calling upon the other side to band in a. list of witnesses. 1\lr. A. G. Mclntyre then informed the Committee that he proposed to proceed first with the cases of those persons

who voted out of their proper divisions.

No. 2.-LISTS OF PERSO:SS WHO VOTED OUT OF TIIEIR PROP&R DIVISION,

3142 Swifte, I~. H. L .••• Ballarat West Proper ... Not entitled for the \Vestern Road division, if at all; but it is objected that, as poll clerk, not entitled to vote.

Bailey, Christopber Ballarat \Vest Proper ... K ot entitled for the \Vestern Ro~td division, if at all; but it is objected that, as deputy, not entitled to vote.

Isaac Jaques Jones ~worn, examined by Mr. A. G. Mclntyre, produced and handed in-1. A Bill containing information for the guidance of electors of llallarat \Vest.

Robert Swan sworn, examined by Mr. A. G. Mcintyre. Cross-examined by Mr. Vale. :Further examined by Mr. A. G. Mclntyre. Further cross-examined by J\lr. Vale. Alexander Alfr<cd Gray sworn, examined by :Mr. A. G. Mclntyre. Cross-examined by Mr. Vale . • Tames Vallins sworn, examined by Mr. A. G. Mclntyre. Cross-examined bv Mr. Vale. ]'urther examined by Mr. A. G. Mclntyre. Further cross-examined by Mr. Vale. 1\{r. A. G. Mcintyre then applied that the ballot-papers might now be produced. Mr. Webb objected to the application, and requested that Messrs. Bailey and ~wifte might be called and examir:e3.

before the point was decided. Unom cleared. The Committee deliberatcc1. Parties called in. The Chairman stated that the Committee were of opinion that, taking into consideration the fact that the tw()

witnesses whom the reRpondent relied upon to prove his case were in the list of witnesses for the Petitioner, and were not ·summoned by him, and that the respondent's counsel. assE:rted that their evidence was material to the decision of the Committee on those points, the Committee would give the counsel the benefit of that point, on the understanding that the witnesses would be in attendance to-morrow.

Isaac JaquesJones, again cnlled in and further examined by Mr. A. G. Mclntyre. Cross-exnmined by 1\Ir. \Vebb. Further examined by Mr. A. G. Mclntyre. Examined by the Committee. Mr. A. G. :11clntyre then informed the Committee that he now proposed to proceed with the eases of those persons

·whose votes were improperly admitted.

No. 1.-LIST OF PERSONS WHOSE VOTES WERE l:MPROPERLY AmnrTED.

.No. on Roll. Name of Voter. In what Division. Head of Objection •

... Bailey, Chr;stopher ... \Vestern Road . .. Not upon roll; also disentitled as deputy returning officer ... Swift, E. II. L. ... .. . Do. .. . Not upon roll ; also disentitled as poll clerk.

3408 Tode, Oswald ... ... Ballarat West Proper ... Kon-natumlization. 1730 Johnson, .John (alias Do. ... Do.

46 Bremer, ,John ... ... Do. ... Do. 169~ IIeinz, Peter ... ... JJo. ... Do. 1437 Hartmaun, Car! ... . .. Do. ... Do. ... Jones, I. .J. ... . .. ... .. . Ueturning officer's casting vote

2 8.-D.-::-To. 3, B

--··---- -----------------------------------

X

:Mr. A. G. Mcintyre called Car! liartmann. Mr. "'ebb objected that the class of votes objected to for non-naturalization need not now be investigated, as the­

proper place to settle the matter was at the place of polling, and that he did not admit the assertion tlmt those persons were not naturalized, as he was instructed that some of them were so ; and was heard to address the Committee in support of his contention that the mere fact of the names of persons being upon the roll gave them a right to vote, and that the Committee· had not the power to inquire into the conectness of any roll.

Mr. A. G. Mclntyre was heard in reply. Room cleared. The Committee deliberated. Parties called in. The Chairman stated the Committee considered that in the face of the express language of the Statute conferring and

defining their powers, it was impossible for them to go behind the roll ; those votes therefore could not be questioned. =:::::: Mr. A. G.Mclntyre then informed the Committee thl>t he would now proceed with the allegations contained in clause

6 of the petition, viz., that divers ballot-papers which were polled on behalf of your Petitioner were wrongfully declared informal.

Mr. Webb informed the Committee that the agents for the sitting member had not been furnished with a list of votes objected to.

Mr. A. G. Meintyre applied for a scrutiny as to certain informal papers. The Chairman suggested that the evidence might be first taken upon this point, and Mr. A. G. ::\felntyre should then,

apply for a scrutiny. David Christy sworn examined .bY Mr. A. G. Mcintyre. Cross-examined by ::\fr. Webb. }~xaminetl by the Committee. Wi!Iiam Shaw sworn, examined by Mr. A. G. Mcintyre. Cross-examined bv Mr. Webb. Examined by the· Committee. l<'urther examined by Mr. A. G. Mclutyre. Further cross-examined by Mr. W ebb. Mr. A. G. Mcintyre then applied for a scrutiny of the ballot-papers, as he submitted he had made out a case. Mr. \V ebb ojeeted to the request of Mr. A. G. Mcintyre. Room cleared. 'fhe Committee deliberated. Parties called in. The Chairman stated that the Committee had decided to allow the partial scrutiny applied for by Mr. A. G.

Mcintyre. Charles Gavan Duffy, in the absence of the Clerk of Papers through illness, sworn, and produced the ballot-papers of

the llallaarat West election. The Chairman directed the witness to hand in the parcel containing the ballot-papers set aside. Mr. A. G. Mcintyre applied that the parcel might be opened, and the ballot-papers set aside at No. 8 booth be·

examined. The pn.rcel was then opened by the Chairman, and the ballot-papers examined. The Chairman stated that four of the ballot· papers had each four names not erased upon them ; that two others had

the names of 1\Ir. }'incham and Mr .• Tones erased; and that the remaining paper had Mr. Jones's name unerased, but a. cross had beenma,le between the christiau names, and that the christian name of Mr. Charles Salter had been erased.

Mr. ll.. G. 1\lclntyre then addressed the Committee, and submitted that the ballot-paper should be received, and the Tote recorded for Mr. Jones.

::\Ir. Webb addressed the Committee in reply, and contended that the ballot·paper was a bad one, and that the votfr could not therefore be allowed to Mr. Joncs.

Room deared. The Committee deliberated. 1'arties called in. The Chairman stated that the Committee had decided that the vote should be allowed to count for ::\fr .• Tones. ::\Ir. A. G. ::vrcintyre then applied that the casting vote of the returning officer given in favour of Mr. Fincham

should be disallowed, as there was no longer a tie. Mr. Webb addressed the Committee in reply, and urged that the proper time to deal with the returning officer's.

vote was :ot the couclusion of the inquiry. The Chairman stated that, in the opinion of the Committee, the time had not arrived to determine the question of

the returning officer'R casting vote. Mr. A. G. ::\Iclntyre then informed the Committee that he now proposed to proceed with the personated votes.

No. 3.-J~rsT OF PERSONATED VoTES.

No. on Roll. Name of Voter. In what Division. I By whom personated.

----1·~-~---·------ ~ .. ---------1-------------------Ballarat West Proper ... ~ John G. Gibb. 1335

3S3i 3379

Gihh, John Willimns, Hieh:trd Shannnlmn, .Tames

Do. . ..

1

, Name at present unknown. Do. ... ,Tames Slumanhan, junior.

Richard Wi!liams sworn, examined by Mr. A. G. Mclntyre. Cross-examined by ::Vir. 'Nebb. Mr. A. G. Mcintyre then called Mr. \Yooldridge. 'l'he Chairman called }fr. A. G. Mcintyre's attention to the fact that the name of Mr. Wooldridge was not in the first

list of witnesses handed in. · Mr. A. G. ::\fciutyre said that this was the person he had referred to in his opening statement whom he would apply

to add to the list. The Committee decided to allow the witness to be called. \Yilliam Jlenry vYooldridge sworn, examined by }fr. A. G. )fclntyre. Cross-examined hy Mr. \V ebb. Examined by the Committee. Further examined by Mr. A. G. Mclntyre. Further cross-examined by Mr. W ebb. James Va\lius again called and further examined by :Mr. A. G. Mcintyre. Hichard \Villiams agnin called and further examined by Mr. A. G. l\ieintyre. Fmther examined by ::\fr. \V ebb. M:r. A. G. :Ylcintvrc then asked that the vote of Richard \Villiams should be recorded in til.vour of :Mr. Joues. Mr. \V ebb addressed the Committee in objection to the request of Mr. Mcintyre. The Cllairman iuformed counsel that the Committee would consider this question and give a decision to-morrow morning.

Committee adjourned until to-morrow, at half-past eleven o'clock.

xi

WED.YESDAY, 15Tu AUGUST, 1883.

~Ir. Coppin, :\Ir. Tltompwn Moore, ~Jr. W. 2.fadden,

Room cleared. The Committee delibcratrd. l'm·tics cnl!ed in.

Jlfember11 present:

~In. DJuKrx, in the Chair ;

:\fr. Melntyre, l\Ir. l'atterson, Mr. Wheeler.

The Chairman sttLtccl that the Committee l1acl decided not to accept the vote of Richard CVVillinms. ,John Gibb sworn, exallliJJcd by :Mr. A. G. :\Iclntyre. Cross-examined bv l\Ir. \Vehb, .Tames Val\ins swO'rn, cxamincu by Mr. A. G. :\Icintyrc. Cross-examiueu by :\Ir. Wcbb. Examined by the Committee. Further examine<! by 1\!r. A. G. Mcintyre. :\fr. A. G. :\Iclntyrc appliecl for the prodncti(lll of a ballot-paper tendered by John Gihb, anu asked that the vote

should be added to the poll for 1\Ir. Joncs. Charles Gavan Duffy, in the absence of the Clerk of the Papers through illness, sworn, aud produced the ballot-papers

·Of No, 3 booth in Jlallaamt West l'roper division. The witness hande<l three parcels to the Chairman, who thereupon opened one of them • • Tames Vallins again callec1 and further examined by :Mr. A. G. :Mcintyre. Further cxamincu by the Committee. The Chairman then opened the other two parcels handed in by :\Ir. Duffy. The ballot-paper, No. 1:>35, having been foum1 anc1 cxamin.;a by the Committee, the Chairman informed counsel that

the vote recorded Ji<l not affect either :\Ir. Fincham or 2.Ir. ,)ones. J\fr. A. U. ~Iclntyrc tlwn asked that tiJC ballot-paper of John Gibb, which had been rejected, should be admitted as a

good vote. ClmrlcB Gavan Dnfl)' again called aml examine•ll•y l\Ir. A. G. Mcintyre. The witm'ss handed in a parcel containing the ballot-papers that hna been set aside. The Chairman opened the parcel, and stated that the ballot-paper showed that :\fr. ,John Gihb had voted for

Mr. Finclmm and ~fr .• Tones. Mr. A. G. ::ilcfutyre then informed the Committee that he did not intend to proceed with the case of James

Shanahan. The Committeo ordercll t:1at the vote of J. C. Gibb be disallowed and the vote of J. Gibb be recorded. ~1:r. A. G. 1\fclntyrc applied that the votes of E. H. I ... Swifte and C. Bailey he disallowed, ana audrcsscd the

·Committee in support of his application. 1Ir. Webb starca that he would call eviilenec heforc addressing the Committee upon the subject. Christopher Bailey sworn, examined by Mr. Webh. Cross-examined by ~fr. A. G. 2.fcTntyre. Examined hy the Committee. Edmund Lentlml Swifte S\vorn, examined by li.Ir. Vale. ,ross-ex:amm<:u hy ~fr. A. G. ::iicintyre.

Mr. Webh then informed the Committee that he did not propose to call any additional evidence the valiriity of the votes of :llessrs. Swiftc and Bailey, and addressed the Committee upon that branch

Mr. A. G. Mclt•tyrc wus heard in reply. Hoom cleared. The Committee deli!.:cmtcd. l'artics calleJ in.

the question of case.

The Chairman s:atell tlwt the Committee hacl •lecidea to nllow 1\fcssrs. Swiftc ana Ilniley's votes to stand. ~Ir. A. G. ::lfdntyrc stateu that there w~ro several otheT cases in which he could proYe th:tt ckpnty returning officers

had not recorclccl thei1· votes, l>ccanse they were toid hy the registrar that tlwy could not vote. He therdorc applied that their votes should now be rc>cordccl, and mentimH'cl the case of :IIr. Urcn, a <lepnty returning oflicer, who w!ls thu~ debarred from voting, am! tltat if this application could not he acecucd to, the election should be declarer! void.

The Chairman intimat<·<l tll i\Ir .. A.(;.. ~felntyrc that the Comrnit1cc found he had exhausted the list of cases of which he had gin•n notke, and were, dioinclincd to allow him to travel further with the case, unless he could show Yery strong rcasonf'.

Mr.~'-. G :\fclnt.vre intima.tcd that the evidence he now asked ieave to add nee would invalidate the election altogether and related to the case'of :\fr. TJrcn. .

The Chairman intimated t.hat. the opinion of the Committee was that, as the votes were not. tendered at the time. and therefore no were prodncihlc in accordance with the previous decision in the case of '\Villiams, the Committee could not enter into matter.

:'\Ir, A. G. :\fcintyre suhmittc,J that, l>y the striking o£: of one YOte the tie had ecas.2d to exist, and therefore the Yote of l>Ir .• Tone,, the returning ofliccr, was Lad, mhl should uow he struck off.

Mr. \\'clJIJ ol>jc'ctccl that the Committee it:J<l deddcd tllnt, as ~.rr. Jones's 11ame was introduced into the second list improperly, the ol,jeetion to I he vote lmd been out.

Mr. A. U. ::l!clntyre snlJmittcd that though at that •tage of the proceedings that step might be proper, yet 11ow that a vote hac! been struck off the application was proper.

The Ch:tirman suggested that the application might stand over till the Committee had heard the case for the sitting member .

. Mr '\Vcbh was fnrthcr heard to oppose the applica.tion. The ChRirman asked 1\Ir. A. G. ~Iclntyre whetiKr this was the last point in his case, and whether it concluded

the case. :\1r. A. G. The Chairman that the ConmJlttec hml dceirlet1 to take into consideration the question of the returning

officer's vote at the termination of the sitting m<emher's case. )lr. \V ch0 a;lpliecl for an a<ljonrumcnt to Tncstby week to enable the sitting mcml.Jcr to prepare his case, and pro­

miseu to hall(! in a het of Yotcs ohjcctul to, if :my sueh wonl<l form part of his case. ,\lr. A. G. 111<-lntyre 'ras heard to object to so long an adjournment, aml statcu that he wonlU require a week to

examine lists, if nny were sent in by the other sic!t:. The Connllittee dl'li!Jcrate<l, and the Chair111an then informeu counsel that the list of votes to be questioned by the

·sitting member must ];t• h·JtHle<l to the Clerk of the Legislatirc As>cmhly not l•ttc-r than Thursuay, 2:\rd August inotant, and that the Comwitt0e 1\oultlproeeed with the furthet· he:lrillg of the CaEe on Tuesday, 28th August instant.

Committee rcdjourncd until Tuesday next, at half-past three o'clock.

T'GESDAY, 21sT A'GG'GST 1883.

Jicmber pre.<ent:

Mr. Dcakin. No quorum.

Adjourned until Tuesday next, at eleven o'clock.

xii

TUESDAY, 28TH AUGUST, 1883. Members present:

:Mr. DEAKIN in the Chair ;

Mr. Coppin, I Mr. W. Madden, Mr. l'atterson, ::\-1r. Mclntyre, Mr. \Vheeler, Mr. ~1oore.

The Clerk of the Legislative Assembly laid before the Committee the follo,ving lists that had been handed in on the-23rd August instant :-

Handed in on the 23rd August, 1883. G. H. JEXKIXS,

Clerk of the Legislative Assembly.

IN PARLIAMENT.-8ESSION 1883. LEGISLATIYE AssEMBLY,

Before the Elections and Qualifications Committee. BALLARAT WEST ELECTION.

List of \Yitncsses to be examined on behalf of :Mr. G. R. Fincham against the Petition of Mr. C. E. Jones. G. H. Jenkins, Esq., Clerk of the Legislative David Christy,

Assembly, .John Ferres, G. R. Fincham, :Edmund Wm. Spain, Isaac Jacques Jones, T. \V. Purdne, Richard H. Caselli, ]~obert J ones, junr., Wm. Henry Barnard, ]~obert Jones, senr., Henry Price, J. H. Were, James Vallins, James Leckie, junr. J. Marshall,

Dated this 2Jr1t day of August, 1883. FRA~'K :31ADDEN,

Parliamentary Agent.

Handed in on the 23rd August, 1883. G. H. JEXKINS,

Clerk of the Legislative Assembly.

IN P ARLJAl'.fENT.-SESSION 1883. LEGISLATIVE .AssEMBLY.

Before the Elections and Qualifications Committee. llALLARA.T WEST ELECTION.

In the matter of the Petition of C. E .• Tones, complaining of the election and return of George Randall Fincham, Esquire, for Ballarat \Vest.

The following is the List of Voters intended to be objected to, with the several heads of objection distinguished against the names of the voters objected to, by and on behalf of Mr. G. R. .Fincham

No. I.-LIST OF PERSONATED VOTES.

No~ on Roll. !

(Ratepayers' HollJ. -~~-----~- -- .

~---~---a,_n_•_o_!V~ot_•_r. ____ ~---~---~------rn __ w_h_at_D_,_·v_i•_io_n_. ________ I--~---U·y··--w-·_l_>o_n_'_Pe_r_so_n_n_te __ u ____ • _____ ___

1751 Robert Jones, junr. Ballarat West l'roper ... Robert Jones, senr.

No. 2.-LIST OF VoTES U1PROPERLY SET ASIDE,

i No. on Roll. I Name of Voter. In what Division. Head of Objection.

--

Two -votes by persons at pre- Ballarat West Proper (at No. I, or C booth)

Improperly rejected for alleged informality. sent unknown.

No. 3.-LIST OF VOTES DIPROPERJ,Y ltECEIYED.

No. on Roll. Kame of Voter. In wlll1t Division. Head of Objection.

Name at present unknown Sebastopol Division, llooth No. I Improperly received and allowed,. as the names of all the candidates were cancelled.

' 'l'o the ClC>rk of the Legislative Assembly attending

"The l~lections and Qnalifications Committee." Dated this twenty-third day of .Angust, 1883.

Mr. Wehb, Q.C., made his opening statement on behalf of the sitting Member.

FRANK MADDEN, Parliamentary Agent.

Mr. A. H. Mclntyre asked that the cn.se of Hichard Williams should be again opened in order that he might be allowed to reply to the arguments of Mr. Web b.

Mr. W ebb addressed the Committee. The Ch:lir:man informed connsel that the Committee would not re-open this case. Mr. Webb then informed the Committee that he l'roposed to proceed first with the personated votes.

xiii

No. I.-LIST OF PERSONATED VOTES.

No. on Roll. Name of Voter. In what Division. (Rat•payers' lMJ).

1751 ... Robert Jones, junr. ... . .. Ballarnt West Proper •• ,

Terence iVilliam Purdne sworn, examined by Mr. Vale. :Examined by the Committee. Cross-exnminetl by Mr A. G. ~fcintyrc. ,Tames Vallins sworn, examined by Mr. iVebb. Cross-exnmined by ::VIr. A. G. :l\iclntyre. :Examined by the Committee. Further examined by Mr. W ebb. William :l\farshall s,;orn, examined by ::V[r. Vale.

By whom personated.

. .. Robert Jones, senr.

Mr. A. U. ::VIclntyre objected to this witness being examined, as his name was entered as J. Marshall on the list of witnesses handed in.

The Committee decided that the witness should be examined. The witness handed in-

1. Valuer's Book. 2. Rate Book.

Examined by the Committee. Cross-examined by :\fr. A. G. ::Vfeintyre. ])avid Christy sworn, examint:d by Mr. Webb • • Tohn Ferres sworn, examined by Mr. iVebb. The witness handed in-

1. Copy ot' the Ballarat Y\Tcst Electoral Roll for the year 1882. Cross-examine(\ hy Mr. A. G. :Mclntyre. Examination of l>avid ChriRty continued. Examined bv the Committee. Cross-examiiJCd h.'· Mr. A. G. :Mcintyre. Jonathan Henry Were sworn, examined by 1\{r. Vale. Cross-examined by Mr. A. G. Mclntyre. Further examined by Mr. Vale. William Henry Barnard sworn, examined by Mr. iVebb. F;xamined by the Committee. Cro•s-ex. .. mined by l\Ir. A. G. i\'lcintyre. Mr. Webb handed in-

1. Copy cf Holl of Ratepaying Electors or the Electoral District of Ballaarat West-Balhw.rat West Proper Division. ·

Further examined by the Committee. Further examin"d by Mr. Webb. Jsrute .Taqnes Jones sworn, examined by Mr. Webb. Mr. Webb then applied for the produetion of the voting-]mper of Robert Jones. Mr. A. G. Mcintyre applied for an adjournment, so that he might have an opportunity of calling as witnesses Robcrt

J ones, senior, and ]{obert J om~s, junior. Room cleared. The Committee deliberated. ]>arties called in. The Chairman stated that if Mr. A. G. ~Iclutyrc desire:l to call Messrs Robert .Tones, s€'nior and junior, as evidence

in support of his case, the Committee, without passing any opinion as to whether that c'fidence would be of any use or not, considered that he hncl a right to.

Mr. W ebb asked the Committee to a<ljourn to enable this witness to be called. The Chairman suggested that Mr. iV ebb should proceed with another case, and inquired of Mr. A. G. :!\feintyre when

he would be prepared to produce :\.fr .• Joncs. senior. l\Ir. A. G. Mcintyre stated that Mr. Jones, .enior, was in Melbourne lately, and that he would send to 13alla.rat and

obtain the witness's presence to-morrow. Mr. W ebb said he would now proceed with the Yotes improperly set aside.

No. 2.-LIST OF VOTES DIPROI'ERLY SET ASIDE.

No. on I:oll. Same of Yotcr.

Two votes by persons at present unknown

Henry Price sworn, examined by Mr. Webb. Examined by the Committee.

' In wlmt DiYision.

Ballarat West I>roper (at No. or C booth)

Cross-examined by Mr. A. G. Mclntyre. ,

Head of Objection.

I, I Improperly rejected for informality.

alleged

Charles Gnnm Duffy, junior, in the absence of the Clerk of the Papers through illness, sworn; examined by Mr. Webb.

The witness prmlnceil the ballot-papers of the Ballaarat West election. The Chairman directed the witness to hand in the parcel containing the set-aside ballot-papers. 'l'he Chainnan opeued the parcel and examined the envelopes therein contained, and having opened the envelopes

referred to in :\1r. Price's eYidcncc, examined the brtllot-papers therein contained, The Chairman mid-'I'here are four papers here, but there are no papers answering to the description. It is just

possible that they may have done in this case as they did in the preceding, where iu a small red tape thing inside the other we founrl the set-aside papers we were in doubt about.

Mr. 1Vehb stated that the witness snid they were pnt into what he called an informal paper. If Mr. Price were asked if they are the papers, that would settle it at once.

Hfm·y Price again called in and further examined b.v the Committee. Henry Hichart! Caselli sworn, examined by Mr. iVebb. Examined by the Committee. Cross-examined by Mr. A. G. l\1clntyre. Room cleared. 'fhe Committee deliberated. Parties called in. The Chairman stated that the Committee, after examining the ballot-paper No. 548, had decided that the vote had

been given f(\r Fincham ancl Kelly, and harl therefore directed that the vote should count for Fincham and Kelly. Mr. \V ebb then asked the Committee to declare :\Ir. Fincham duly elected, and addressed the Committee in support

of his applic:ttion.

xiv

:-.1r. A. G. Mclntyre addressed the Committee in reply. Room e\enred. The Committee deliberated. J>arties called in. The Chairman stated that the Committee would now hear counsel on the question as to allowing the vote of the

returning officer. Mr. A. G. Mcintvre then addre~sed the Committee. Mr. Webb w:ts heard in reply. lloom cleared. 'The Committee tleliberated. Resolved-That the vote of the Returning Officer be allowed. Mr. Moore moved-That George R&.ndall :Fincham is duly elected a member to serve in this present Parliament for

the Electoral District of Eal!aarat West. Question-put and re&olved in the affirmative. Parties called in. The Chairman stated tlmt the Committee considered that the same state of affairs existed now as at the close of the

poll for the Ballaamt \V est election. and had therefore decide<l that the vote of the returning officer must stand. The Clerk then read the following resolution that had heen agreed to :-"That George Randalll;'incham is duly

elected a member to serve in this present Parliament for the Electoral District of Ballaarat West." Ordered-That the said resolution be reported to the House.

Mr. \V ebb applied for costs ou the ground that the petition was both frivolous and vexatious. The Chairm'm informed counsel that the Committee had already considered this point, 1md had determined that the

petition was neither frivolous nor vexatious. Committee adjourned,

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

LIST OF vVITNESSES.

George Henry J enkins, Clerk of the Legislative Assembly Isaac Jaques Jones Robert Swan Alexander Alfred Gray J ames Y allins David Christy \Villiam Shaw Charles Gavan Duffy, junior Richard Williams William Henry W ooldridge JohnGibb Christopher Bailey Edmund Henry Lenthal Swifte Terence William Purdue William Marshall John Ferres J onathan Henry Were William Henry Barnard Henry Price Henry Richards Caselli

Page

1 2, G, 27

3 4

4. 13, 14, 15, 21 'l, 24

8 9, 15,28

10 11 13 16 18 2()

23 24

25 26

27,28 28

MINU'rES OF EVIDENCE.

BALLAARAT "\VEST ELECTION PETITION.

TUESDAY, 7TH AUGUST, 1883.

Mr. Coppin, Mr. Thompson Moore, Mr. W. Madden,

Members present: MR. DEAKIN, in the Chair;

Mr. l\lcintyre, Mr. Patterson, Mr. Wheeler.

The petition of Mr. C. E. J.ones against the return of Mr. G. R. l!'incham was taken as read. Mr. A. G. lticintyre appeared as counsel for Mr. Jones. Mr. William Davies appeared as agent. Th,e sitting member appeared in person. illr. A. G. Mcintyre handed in a list of witnesses, and applied that the evidence of certain witnesses

might be taken on declaration before justices of the peace, and was heard to address the Committee in support of the request.

Mr. Fincham was heard against the granting of the application. The Chairman intimated that the Committee were of opinion that Mr. A. G. Mclntyre should first open

his case, and then make the application already laid before the Committee. Mr. A. G. Mcintyre was heard to address the Committee in support of the petition, and handed in

a roll of the electors in Ballarat West Proper, said to be signed by the electoral registrar, and handed in a list of witnesses, and the votes to be objected to.

The Chairman inquired whether Mr. A. G. Mcintyre's application to have witnesses examined at Ballarat extended to all the witnesses whose names have been handed in.

Mr. A. G. lli'cintyre replied m the affirmative, except as to the Clerk of the Assembly, the Under Secretary, Mr. C. E. Jones, and the electoral registrar.

ll:lr. Fincham was further heard to object to the taking of evidence at Ballarat. The Committee-room was cleared.

The Committee deliberated.

After a short time the counsel and parties were again called in, and informed by the Chairman that the Committee had decided to have the evidence taken in the presence of the Committee.

:Jfr. A. G. Mcintyre was heard further to address the Committee upon the allegations in the, petition.

George Henry Jenkins, Clerk of theLegislative Assembly, sworn.-Examined by Mr. A. G.l.fcintyre.

1. Do you produce the writ ?-I produce the writ that I have received from His Excellency the· G. H. Jenklns, Governor, commanding the returning officer for the electoral district of Ballarat ·west to proceed 7tb. Anguat ISU..

according to law to the election of three members to serve for the district, in February last, and by the endorsement it appears that Willinm Collard Smith, Henry Bell, and George Randall Fincham, were duly: elected.

The witness withdrew.

Adjourned to Tuesday next, at Eleven o'clock.

TUESDAY, 14Trr AUGUST, 1883.

Mr. Coppin, Mr. Thompson 1\Ioore, Mr. W. :Madden,

Members present: MR. DEAKIX, in the Chair ;

The counsel and parties were called in. Mr. A. G. Mcintyre appeared as counsel for the petitioner. ltfr. W. Davies appeared as agent.

Mr. Mclntyre, :Mr. Patterson, Mr. Wheeler.

Mr. Webb, Q.C., and ~Jtr. Vale with him, appeared for the sitting member. "lfessrs. Madden and Butler appeared as agents. The Clerk made a statement regarding the lists of witnesses and votes objected to, handed to him by

the agent for the petitioner. The Committee-room was cleared.

The Committee deliberated. 2 S.-D.-No. 3. 0

2

After a short time the counsel and parties were again called in. The Cltairman.-The Committee have deliberated upon the points raised upon these documents

which have been handed in by the petitioner; and it might be as well if I were to point out to the parties that the point involved in the question of lists is a very serious point indeed. The petitioner hands in on the proper dny a list, which is informal, which is not in accordance with the Act; and it is only on the next day-a day late-that he hands in a. list complying with the provisio:1s of the Act. It would there­fore be in the power of the Committee, if it were acting simply as a court of law, and judging by the strict letter of tlJC law, to reject the second list altogether; and, as the first list handed in is informal, that would very seriously prejudice, if it did not altogether overthrow the case of the petitioner. But the Committee, having deliberated carefully upon the matter, do not desire to judge the case merely upon its technicalities, and have therefore resolved, after pointing out this matter most emphatically and clearly, to accept the second list. In accepting the second list, howeYer, they noticed two alterations material to the case. The first is the spelling of the name James Shanahan, but misspelt Shanannlmn, bnt, as it is clearly the same person, the Committee have decided to accept that list. But the second case is the name of I. ,J. Jones, returning officer. That is an entirely new name, not in the first list; and the Committee have decided to strike out the name.

Mr. A. G. Mcinty1·e was heard to address the Committee, to contend that the list of names of witnesses was quite sufficient.

The Chairman replied that it was the invariable and strict practice in this colony that the lists of all votes upon the matter for this reason objected to, should be handed in before the Committee commenced its investigations.

jJfr. A. G. 3fcintyre stated that he was instructed that Mr. I. J. Jones's name was included in the first list, and pointed out that Mr. Wooldridge's name had been added.

The Chai1·man stated that Mr. Jones's name not being in the first list of persons whose names were objected to, it could not now be admitted.

Jlfr. A. G. Mcintyre submitted that the sitting member should be now called upon to put in a list of votes to which he objected.

· 1Jf1'. Vale was heard to address the Committee against the application. The Cltairman intimated that the Committee considered that the petitioner should show that he had

a case without calling upon the other side to hand in a list of wituesses . .Mr. A. G. Mcintyre applied that the Clerk of the Papers might be authorized by the Committee to

produce all parcels of used ballot-papers, all parcels of unused ballot-papers, all parcels of ballot-papers set aside, and all parcels of rolls, books, or other papers used at the said election.

JJ1r. Vale was heard to oppose the applieation Leing granted at this stage.

Isaac Jaques Jones sworn.-Examined Ly ""lfr. A. G. ~lfcintyre.

Isaae J. Jones, 1 A. vVhat are you ?-I am a bank manager. 14th Auguatl883 2. Do you hold any official position ?-Returning officer.

3. For the electoral district of what ?-Ballarat West. 4. Did yon act as such at the last eleetion ?-I did. 5. When was it held ?-In Febrllary last. 6. Do you recollect the date ?-I think it was the 22nll. 7. The 22nd ?-I think so. 8. Was there a writ received Ly you ?-Tht>re was. 9. On whnt date, do you recollect ?-The lOth. 10. I suppose you gave proper notices, or caused proper notices to be given, of the several

requirements ?-I did. 11. Is that your notice-[ showing a newspaper to the witness] ?-Yes; these appear in the Star of

Saturday, February lOth. 12. And the notice of the day of polling; the nomination took place on the 15th ?-Yes. 13. Dld you cause that nomination-the candidates' names nominated-to Le published in aecordance

with the Act? --I dill. 14. Is this the nomination in the Star of the 16th February, 1883 ?-That is an advertisement

from one of the candi(\ates, that is not mine. 15. This is at Ballnrat West-is that the advertisement you caused to be inserted ?-It is. 16. What names are down there, please, Mr. Jones ?-The different booths? 17. The different candidates-what are they ?-William CollarJ Smith, Henry Bell, .Richard

T. Vale, ""illiam Trench Clifforll Kelly, Charles Edwin Jones, Charles Salter, George Randall Fincham. 18. When did the election take place ?-Ou the 22'nd, I think it is. ]9. On the 23nl the numbers were published in tbe papers-are those munLers correct. Star, 23rd

February. vVill you kindly read out the names and numbers-Smith, 2,770, the next number ?-Fineham is 1,742.

20. Bell ?-2,565; Fincham, 1,742; Jones, 1,742. That is not eorreet, they made a mistake at the printer's. I had to get it altered afterwards ; they took and reYersed them.

21. How do you mean ?-Oh yes ; }fr. Fincham had oue vote more than the other. 22. At this stage had he one vote more than the other ?-He had at that stage. 23. You had not given your casting vote then ?-I had. I gave my casting vote, and that was

when all the returns came in as finished, and Mr. Fincham and Mr. J ones had polled alike ; and I recorded my vote in accordance with the Act.

24. You found they had polled alike ?-I fou.nd they had polled alike. I compared the manuscript with that, and I showed them that they made a mtstake. They made them both the same on account of hearing it that night ..

25. I think it is all right ; you know the next day you find your official declaration of the poll-it was only in the Cour1:er the numbers were wrong. In the Ballarat Star the official declaration of the poll--?-Yes, there it is correct.

26. But that evening, before you had given your casting vote, they were equal, were they not?­Before I gave my casting vote they were equal.

3

27. Do you recollect the divisions of the clcC',toral district of Ballarat West ?-There are twenty- rsaac.J.Jones, h CQ!Itinued,

one boot s ; I really cannot carry them in my mind. 14th August 1sss 28. But the divisions under the Act ?-In the advertisement you will find them. 29. How many divisions are there-are those the divisious-[hwnding a paper to the witness] ?­

I cannot say. 30. Ballarat vYest-snrely you can tell the divisions ?-There is a lot of things there. 31. Is that correct-[l<anding another paper to tlw witness] ?-That will be correct. There is the

City Hall Police Court. 32. We want the divisions first, please ?-Ballarat West Proper, vVestern Road, and Winter's. 33. There are three divisions then ?-Yes. 34. Is that published with your sanction- the bill ?-Yes, it is a copy of the advertisement or bill

that my predecessor had. 35. And it is quite correct?-Yes, it is quite correct. I have not been called to account for it.

I believe it to be correct. 36. We hand that in-[ handing in the same]. Was there a deputy and poll clerk appointed at each

booth-a deputy returning officer ?-A deputy returning officer and poll clerk. 37. Do you remember the names of the deputy and poll clerk respectively, at No. 8 booth, Ballarat

West Proper division ?-No, not from memory. 38. Were their names Mr. Christy and Mr. Shaw ?-1-Ir. Christy and ~fr. Shaw were both employed,

but I do not remember at what booth of the twenty-one they were employed. 39. They were employed?-Yes. 40. Do you remember if Mr. Christopher Bailey and Mr. E. H. L. Swifte were employed ?-I do. 41. Do you remembee at what division they were employed ?-I think at vVindermere. 42. Who was your substitute returning officer ?-Mr. James Vallins.

The witness withdrew.

Robert Swan sworn.-Examined by Mr. A. G. Mclntyre. 43. ·what are you ?-Farmer. Rooort swan, 44. Did you act as scrntineer at the last election for Ballarat West?-I did. 14thJ.uguatl88S

45. Fo1· whom ?-Mr. Salter. 4G. Who was Mr. Salter ?-He was a candidate at the last election there. '17. Where did you act ?-At Windermere booth, \Vestern Road. 48. Western Road division ?-Yes. 49. Is this the roll of ratepaying electors for that division-[ltanding a roll to the witness]?-Yes,

that is the roll. · 50. Do you recognise that signature ?-Yes. 51. David Christy, Registrar ?-Y cs. 52. Those arc the rolls certified as correct by the registrar. Do you recollect a man named

Christopher Bailey having voted at that division?-Y cs, I do. 53. Is his name upon this roll?-No, it is not. 54. His name is not upon that roll ?-No, it is not npon that roll. I did mention at the time that

I thought it was illegal. 55. When making np the papers, did you find any error in the number of votes polled, at least the

number of voting-papers put in, compared with the number of votes marked off upon the list. You know it is usual to mark off the names as they vote ?-Yes, I understand. There were two more than what were upon this roll.

5G. Do you recollect Mr. E. H. L. Swifte having voted at that booth ?-I do. 57. Does his name appear upon this roll ?-It does not. 58. Did you see him put a ballot-paper into the box ?-Yes, they both put them in. 59. Both of them?-Yes. Jl:lr. A. G. Mclntyrf! tendered the roll in evidence, and suggested that the other roll for the vVestern

Road division should be prouuced, which had been marked off by the deputy returning officer, he having now proved that two persons had voted whose names had not been upon the roll.

Jf1·. Vate was heard to object that the roll would not be e\·idence until the person who marked it was present, and that this witness could not prove anything upon it.

llfr. A. G. llfclntyre submitted that under section 124 the roll was made evidence by Statute.

Cross-examined by 1.l:lr. Vale.

60. You were scrutineer, were you uot ?-Yes. G 1. There were a number of other scrntineees present, were there not ?-Yes. 62. Will you mention their names ?-Mr. I<raser and Mr. Gray. 63. Mr. John Fraser ?-Alexander Fraser. 64. And Alexander Gray ?-And Alexander Gray. 65. You say you objected to the vote?-Yes. 66. Of the returning officer?-Yes. 67. In what way did you object ?-I was not at all clear upon the subject, and I said, "Can' you

vote here, sir;" and I said, " Your name is not upon this roll." 68. What answer?-His answer was, "We were in doubt of it, and I was told to get a certified

general roll, and then I conl<l vote anywhere." And he brought this general roll out with him, and showed me there his name was upon the roll of the general roll.

69. And that was a certified roll ?-That was a certified roll. Of course I was not aware that I could go any further, and I dropped it.

70. And when he had produced a copy of a certified roll you took a record of his vote, did not you ? -Yes, I noted that he had voted.

71. And all the other scrutineers took a note that he voted ?-There was only one other there. 72. He was all that was present?-Yes, he was all that was present.

Rob&r~ Swan, ~ued,

'Hth August 1€83

A. A. Grny, Uth August 1883

4

78. He took a note?-He did not take a note, but he heard all that passed between us. 74. Now did Mr. Swifte openly call your attention to the fact that he was going to vote ?-He did, 7 5. And Mr. Bailey also?-Yes. 76. And at the counting up at night you counted those two votes?-Yes. 77. Without any further remark ?-Without any further remark. 78. By ltfr. A. G. J}fcin~IJre.-How did the general roll happen to be there ?-Mr. Bailey or Mr.

Swifte, I do not know which of them, brought it-they brought it with them. 79. Was it in use at the time of the election ?-Only for those two votes. 80. The general roll was not in use at that booth ?-No, that was the roll. 81. By tlte Committee.-Were the names of those two men, Bailey and Swifte, on the general roll?

-Yes, they were. 82. By Mr. A. G. ltfcintyre.-Were they on the roll for that division ?-They were not upon this

roll. 88. That is the roll for the Western division ?-For the Western division. 84. And was attention called to the fact after the numbers were counted that there were two votes

extra?-Yes, as far as I remember there was ; of course, they were bound to. 85. By Mr. Vale.-I should like to ask the witness one question. He said he made no further

complaint, distinctly, after the morning ?-No. 86. In the evening you counted the numbers ?-Yes; any further than when the numbers were

made up we saw those two papers were extra. 87. When you counted them, did not you include the vote of :Mr. Swifte and the vote of the

returning officer ?-Yes. 88. And made no protest that night ?-No, no protest whatsoever.

The witness withdrew.

Alexander Alfred Gray sworn.-Examined by ~fr • .A. G. Jfcintyre.

89. What are you ?-A farmer. 90. Did you act as scrutineer at the last election for Ballarat 'Vest ?-Ye~. 91. :For whom and in what division ?-Western Road division, for Mr. Kelly. 92. At Windermere booth ?-Yes. 93. VVho was }fr. Kelly ?-He was one of the candidates. 94. Do you recollect a person called Christopher Bailey having voted at that booth?-Yes. 95. Was his name upon the roll of ratepaying electors ?-No. 9G. Do you recollect a person calleu Edward H. L. Swifte having voted in that division ?-Yes. 97. Was his name upon the roll of the Western Ho ad division ?-No. 98. Is that a correct copy or do you know the signature at the end there-[pointing to tlte roll]?­

I could not tell whether it is his signature. 99. Do you know Mr. Christy, the registrar-do you know his writing ?-No, I do not know his

writing. 100. Did you protest at the time against those votes being admitted ?-No, I did not protest. 101. Did you hear any protest being offered?-What I heard was, l.ir. Swan asked him, as far as

I can remember if he could vote on the genernl roll-his name was not upon the divisional roll-and he said, from what I can remember, "Yes."

102. He said" Yes." You saw him vote ?-I saw him vote at Ballarat Proper, in the box. 108. Did you see :Mr. Swifte put his ballot-paper in also?--Yes. 104. When the numbers were counted at the end did you notice anything peculiar about it?­

I noticed two ballot-papers more were used than there were names scratched off my roll.

Cross-examined by Mr. Vale. 105. ·when Mr. Bailey offered to vote you made no objection ?-No, I made no objection. 106. What did he do or say ?-Mr. Bailey? 107. Yes ?-As far as I can remember, he said that their name was not on the division roll, but they

1had a general roll with them, and they would vote on that. 108. Did not he tell you that, in accordance with the custom, he had had prepared a certified roll ?

-a,do not remember him saying that. 109. Did he not produce a general roll ?-Yes, he pwduced a general roll. 110. And you made no objection to his voting ?-No, I made no objection. 111. Nor to Mr. Swifte ?-No. 112. Did you raise any objection in the evening when the numbers were totted up ?-No, I did not

·raise any objection, but .Mr. Swan said, as far as I can remember, "There arc two more ballot-papers used than the names scratched oft the division roll." Then he said, "That is our two votes."

113. And thereupon you agreed to the number ?-Yes. 114. And one was the returning officer, Mr. Bailey, was he not ?-Yes. 115. That is to say the deputy returning officer for that booth ?-Yes. 116. And the other, what-poll clerk, was he not?-Yes.

The witness withdre'W.

James Vallins sworn.-Examined by Mr. A. G. Mcintyre .

.Tames Vallln• 117. \V hat are you ?-My business? l4tn August 18S3 118. Yes ?-I am occupied as valuer in Ballarat,

119. City valuer for Ballarat West ?-Yes. 120. What position did yon occupy at the last general election for Ballarat West ?-Substitute

returning officer. 121. Among your duties as substitute returning officer, I believe, is one handing in to each deputy

l'eturning officer ce;pies of the rolls to be used at the election ?-Yes.

5

122. Do you recollect who was the deputy returning officer at the Windermere booth of the Western James Vallin•,

Road diviBion ?-Mr. Christopher Bailey. . l4th'"I~';,~:tissa 123. What did you hand him ?-Two copies of each roll for the Western Road division, and a book •

of instructions, and some other documents necessary to carry out the election. 124. What did the retnrning- officer do, did he sig-n it ?-He signed it. 125. They were all signed by the returning officer ?-By the deputy returning officer. 126. Bnt in the first place were they not signed by the returning officer ?-They were signed by

myself-the rolls. 127. Did the Jeputy you a receipt for those documents ?-Yes. 128. In the receipt was there included a general roll ?-For where? 129. For Ballarat West-did you give him a general roll for Ballarat West ?-Yes. 130. You did, among the papers ?-No. 131. And he did not you a receipt ?-I did not give him the general roll till some time after-

wards. 132. And gave you a receipt ?-And gave me a receipt. 133. The general roll was not included in the receipt ?-It was not. 13±. Have you got the ?-No, it is with the documents. 136. Where is it ?-I cannot tell you. It was sent down with the rest of the papers. 136. But which roll did you give him to vote-a divisional roll ?-The Western Road division. 137. Did he apply for a certified copy of the general roll ?-Yes, he returned in company with his

poll clerk and applied for it. 138. When ?-Some time after he had obtained his papers. 139. You gave him a certified copy?-Yes, he asked for it for purposes of reference, and I gave him it. 140. Not to vote on ?-Not to vote on. 141. Did you tell him he was not to vote on it ?-I did, distinctly. 142. The Committee.-Told whom? 143. By l~Jr. A. G. ftlcintyre.-That no votes were to be taken on the general roll, all the votes

were to be taken on the divisional roll. What did you hand him a general roll for?-For purposes of reference.

144. Simply for purposes of reference ?-Yes. 145. But not for the purpose of voting ?-No. 146. Did Mr. Christopher Bailey ask if he might vote in that division ?-Yes, both himself and his

poll clerk asked for instructions how they were to record their vote, and they were informed it was illegal to vote out of the division in which their qualification rested; they could not vote there, and they must not vote. That applied to all others who were out of their di,,isions as well as those two.

146a. You gave a definite instruction to them?-Yes, a definite instruction.

Cross-examined by N.r. Vale. 147. Did you tell Mr. Bailey that he was not to vote at the Western Road ?-I did. 148. Positively ?-Distinctly. 149. He did not apply to you for that roll for the purpose of voting and t ,ld you so ?-Oh no, he

applied firs~ for instructions how to record his vote, knowing he was out of his division, and neither the returning officer nor myself could permit them to vote, they were both told.

150. You speak of the returning officer, were you present with the returning officer ?-I was, we were all together, and the question was then put and they found they could not get any permission to vote, and they asked for a copy of the general roll for Ballarat ·west Proper, and I gave them a copy of that roll stating, at the same time, "If you want that for the purpose of voting I will not it to you, but if you want it for purposes of reference I will it to you, as I have some spare ones " and they said they wanted it for purposes of reference.

151. By Mr Webb.-Have you never voted out of your division as deputy returning officer?­Never; I always protested against it.

152. I do not ask about protesting-I ask if you did it yourself?-Never. 153. By the Committee.-How did those two men receive those two ballot-papers that Jay ?-They

obtained all the ballot-papers in one parcel, the whole of the ballot-papers anJ books received from me. The papers were counted, and the books and the papers were counted to see that they tallied with the books and the papers upon the form, the list, and they took them away, and I know nothing of them after they left the office.

154. If you had been acting as deputy returning officer would you lmve given either of those men a paper to vote '?-No.

155. They were deputies-officials ?-One was deputy, and the other a poll clerk. 16H. Did the deputy give the clerk a paper? -I do not know. I know nothing ont of the office. U57. ·what is the practice at the polling-booths ?-It varies. I have been rnixed up in many

elections in Ballarat, and I have always opposed the practice, still it has been done occasionally. 1.'58. What practice ?-Voting out of the division. 159. Who gives out the ballot-papers ?-The deputy returning officer. 160. In this case it was ).fr. Bailey?-Yes. 161. He must have given a ballot-paper to himself?-Yes. 162. By the usual custom ?-I say it is not the usual custom. 163. The usual custom is for the depnty returning officer to hand the paper to the voter

he must have done it. 164. Did he give it to Swifte also it must be initialled by the deputy returning officer,

and the number placed upon it before it mm be issued at all. It c·u1 be only done by the deput.y returning officer.

165. -were the names upon the divisional roll in Ballarat ·west Proper. 166. You say you know cases where deputies and poll clerks have voted out of their divisions?

-I do not know cases where deputies and poll clerks have voted out of their divisions, but I have known cases where scrutineers have demanded and done it. I heard of it, that is to say; and I have uo doubt it is correct.

•

6

Jnmesya.~uns, 167. You heard of it; you do not know it of your own knowledge?-Ko. Hth'':~'~,'::iss3 168. By JJb·. A. G 1l1c!ntyre.-Did Mr. Swifte toll you afterwards that he had voted ?-:VIr. Swifte 8

made no secret of it. I discussed the matter with himself nml othcrR, in his office, several times. Allow me, in connexion with that, to say that Mr. Swi.fte always claimetl it as a right, at all times, whenever be spoke about it.

Ieaac J. J ones, 14tll August 1883

169. Did he say anything about that vote being struck off if there was any scrutiny; did he think that the vote would be objected to?--

11-fr. Vale objected. 170. By Mr. A. G. lrfclntyre.-Mr. J ones has already identified that paper, do you identify it also

as a correct list of the divisions ?-Yes. 171. \Vhat is that written at the bottom of it?-" No vote can be taken excepting at the place and

in the booth on which is affixed the initial letter of the elector's surname.'' 172. That is, no vote can be taken except at that place, and in the booth upon which is affixed the

initial letter of the elector's surname?-Yes. 173. By tlw Committee.-You said just now that :VIr. Bailey has always claimed the right to vote?

-No, that is Mr. Swifte, the poll clerk. 174. He has always claimed the right to vote outsille of his division ?-That iB in discussing it since, 17 5. Do you know whether, as a matter of fact, he has done it before ?-I think you slightly

misunderstand me; in every case Mr. Swifte, in discussing that with me, has claimed that he did right in voting on this occasion out at \Vindennere.

Mr. Vale objected to the notice at the foot of the bill put in as establishing a practice not enforceable by law.

M1'. A. G. llfcintyre referred the Committee to section 17 of the Electoral Act of 1865, and also section 101, in support of the practice referred to.

Tlte witness witl<drew.

Mr. A. G. Mcintyre applied that the ballot-papers might now be produced. ltfr. Webb was heard to object that before the ballot-paper,; were produced, it was necessary for the

Committee to determine that the votes objected to were improperly taken, and applied that Mr. Bailey and Mr. Swlfte should be called and examined before the point was decided,

}rfr. A. G. Mcintyre was heard in reply. Tlte Chairman suggested that the witnesses should be called. Mr. A. G. J}fcintyre stated that they were not in attendance, and was heard to argue that even were

they examined their evidence would be entirely irrelevant. Tl~e Committee-room was clem·ed.

The Committee deliberated.

After some time the counsel and parties were again called in and informed by the Chairman that the Committee were of opinion that, taking into consideration the fact that the two witnesses whom the respondent relied upon to prove his case were in the list of witnesses for the petitioner, and were not sum­moned by him, and that the respondent's counsel asserted that their evidence was material to the decision of the Committee on those points, the Committee would give the counsel the benefit of that point, on the understandin~ that the witnesses were here to-morrow.

""h. TVebb stated that the witnesses ·would be telegraphed for to-night, but that there was no power to compel their attendance, and applied that the Chairman should sign an order for their attendance.

me.

Isaac Jaques Jones again called.-Further examined by 1l1r. A. G. Mcintyre. 176-7. Do you know Mr. Christopher Bailey and Mr. E. H. L. Swifte ?-I do; I know them both. 178. Did they ask your pennission ?---Mr. Webb objected. 179. By Mr. A. G. lllcintyre.-Did you give pennission to them to vote ?-No. 180. You did not?~No. 181. Did they ask your permission ?-No. 182. Did they apply to you for a register for the purpose of voting out of the division ?-Not to

183. Did they apply to anybody ?-If that is desired, I will give my opinion. I believe--184. \V e do not want that. Did not you tell them they were not to vote ?-:No, I never spoke to

them at all upon the subject ; that is, I did not tell them they were not to vote. Of course I was giving them instructions going out-the same as we do all deputy returning officers-showing them how to make up the parcels aud return them as you have them here now, but I never gave them liberty to vote out of their district, certainly.

Cross-examined by Mr. Webb.

185. Is it correct tlmt you instructed them that they could not vote out of their district, and were not to do so ?-Is it true that what?

186. That you told them they were not to vote out of their district ?-I did not tell them so. 187. Or anything to that effect ?-No, I heard from my deputy. 188. Never mind what you heard from your deputy-it is not that ?-I did not speak to them upon

the subject. 189. Or were they told in your presence not to vote out of their district ?-As well as my memory

serves me, I heard Mr. Vallins say that they should, by right, vote in their district-something to that effect but I did not speak to them at all upon the subject.

' 190. Then as far as you heard, neither you nor Mr. Vallins told him not to vote ?-I did not ; I cannot account for the deputy.

191. By Mr. A. G. Mclntyre.-But Mr. Vallins told them in your presence, did he not ?-Told them to vote ? .

192. No, that they had no right to vote out of their division ?-As well as my memory serves me, I heard him say, "You can only vote in your division "-something to that effect.

7

193. By tlte Committte.-Where did that conversation take place ?-I think at my office. Ul4. Before the poll ?-Before. 195. Was it the day of the poll ?-No, the day previous, in giving their instructions. 196. ~What led np to this conversation ?-As well as I can remember, the deputy said that they

asked him for a general roll-the general roll was not the roll they had received to go to 'Vindermere with, which is between four and five miles ~from the city, and it was on that account that I heard that they got this roll for the pnrp se of voting there, as they could not come in to where they were upJn the regular liEt, which was four miles away to come into town. They could not possibly come in there to vote a second time.

197. 'Vho has the appointment of these men ?-The returning officer appoints. 198. Did you appoint these men ?-Yes. 199. That is Bailey?-Yes, in conjunction. They are appointed, and make a declaration. 200. At the time you appointed them did you know he had not a vote in the division in which he

was going to act as returning officer ?-I did not. 201. Did he make any remark in regard to it then ?-No. 202. Then the only notice you knew he had not a vote then was in consequence of James

Vallins-- ?-Yes, hearing him ask for the general roll ; and, as well as my memory serves me, he said, "You do not want that"-or words to that effect-" you do not require that, you are not in it, you are at Windermere ;" and they got it, and I think that they said that they would vote, as well as I can remember.

203. You have been a returning officer for some time, have you not ?-No, this is the first time I had the honour to fill such a position.

204. Then you do not know the practice of returning officers voting out of their division, when they act as deputies ?-The Act says, I think, that they are to vote in their division under the letter, but I read it to that effect. It is to prevent a party from going a second time and voting ; they certainly did not vote a second time.

205. Never mind that; it is the law of the matter. As a matter of fact, you do not know that the returning officer is in the habit of voting out of his division ?-I cannot say.

The witness withdrew.

11-fr. A. G. 1tlclntyre proposed to call Carl Hartmann. Mr. Webb objected that the class of votes objected to for non-naturalization need not now be inves­

tigated, as the proper place to settle the matter was at the place of polling, and stated that he did not admit the assertion that those persons were not naturalized, as he was instructed that some of them were so; and was heard to address the Committee in support of his contention that the mere fact of the names of persons being upon the roll gave them a right to vote, and that the Committee had not the power to inquire into the correctness of any roll.

];h. A. G. lJfclntyre was heard in reply. Mr. Webb rose to reply. The Chairman pointed out that it was not usual to hear counsel a second time, and that the rules of

procedure stated that only one counsel would be heard on each side. 1l1r. Webb submitted that that rule did not exclude him from reply, and was heard in reply to Mr.

Mcintyre accordingly. The Committee-room was cleared.

The Committee deliberated.

After some time the counsel and parties were again called in and informed by the Chairman that the Committee considered that in the face of the express language of the Statute conferring and defining their powers, it was impossible for them to go behind the roll ; those votes therefore could not be questioned.

Jl1r. A. G. Mclnt!1re intimated that he would now proceed with the part of the case set out in the 6th clause of the petition, which sets forth "that divers ballot-papers polled on behalf of your petitioner were wrongfully declared informal." ·

Mr. Webb objected that no list of the votes objected to under this clause had been furnished. lJJr. A. G. Mclntyre prayed a scrutiny as to certain informal papers, and submitted that it was both

impossible to describe the informalities, and unnecessary to specify the actual papers which were declared informal, and mentioned the cases of Ronaldson, a voter, and another case of a voter, name unknown, whose votes had been improperly rejected.

Mr. Webb asked under what section this application was made. Mr. A. G. Mclntyre replied that votes were improperly rejected at the election, and cited the

Cambridge case, W olfeston and Dewhurst, p. 58, and section G 6 of the Act, under which the Committee had power to inquire whether votes had been improperly admitted or rejected.

The Chairman pointed out that it was requisite that lists should be handed in of votes proposed to be added.

Mr. A. G. Mclntyrc quoted Rogers 571, and the Cambridge case, and was heard to argue that the list could not possibly be supplied, since it was not known what electors' votes were required to be added.

11h. A. G. Mclntyre stated that all the cases occurred in Ballarat West, No. 8 booth, that the requirement of the list was a statutory requirement in England, but that the Act making it obligatory did not exist here.

The Chairman suggested that Mr. Mcintyre might take the evidence first upon this point, and then apply for a scrutiny.

David Christy sworn.-Examined by Mr. A. G. lJlclntyre.

206. What are you ?-I am a mining registrar at Ballarat. 207. Did you act as a deputy returning officer at the last election ?·-I did. 208. In what booth ?-In No. 8, I think it was, or No. 9. 209. By the Committee.-What division was that ?-I think it was No. 8 booth; it wasP, Q, and R. 210. By Mr. A. G. Mclntyre.-Do you recollect the circumstance of tallying the votes at the end,

counting the votes at the end ?-Yes, I do.

Isaac J. Jonee, continutd,

14th August 1883

Davld Chrlsty, 14th AUI[USt 188a

8

D Yill Ohrlsty, 211. Did you set aside any ballot-papers?-Ye&. 14thco;~;;t~fissa 212. On what ground ?-I can re1nember four vt'"elL I think there 1vere five or six altogether, and

the four I refer to in the one instance they loft the four nnmes on instead of three, that was ono. There were seven candidates altogether in the field, and instead of leaving on three they left on four, that was one. The other again, there werfl two crosses opposite the name of Mr. C. E. Joues, in this fashion­[ illustrating upon a piece ofpaper]-and there was C. E. Jones written along here.

213. And all the other names scratched out?-Yes, that was the only thing; and I believe there was a second one, another again upon the paper. There was a big cross between ''Charles Ed win Jones," after the word "Charles" a big cross was put between "Charles" and "Edwin," in those two, I remember.

21·i. B;lj the Committee.-And all the other names scratched out on that ?-Yes; and in others again it was all regular, but in pencil, "No Major."

215. By Mr . .A. G. llfciniJjre.-" No Major" ?-Something of that kind ; and another one, Ronson, I think it was, had written his name opposite the candidate. That is all I remember.

216. He signed his name ?-I think so. 217. And you set aside this voting-paper in the informal ones, among them ?-Yes. 218. And they were not reckoned in the count ?-No, they were not.

Cross-examined by J.l:fr. Webb. 219. Under what clause in the Act did you do this ?-Which? 220. Under what provision in the Act did you do this ?-Those votes I refer to were considered

illegal by the scrutineers as well. 221. But you were going through the votes that were given, tts I understand ?-Yes, and there

were four left instead of three in one. 222. Can you tell me what clause it was, or where it is you got the power to set aside those votes ?'

-I have not the Act with me now, but I know we considered them illegal, or rather, informal, at the time as being defaced ; I showed them to the scrutineers at the same time.

223. Did they all agree that they were informal?-Yes. 224. And you set them aside?-Yes. 225. By the Committee.-Did Mr. Jones's scrutineers agree to their being set aside?-Yes, they all

agreed to that. 226. By Ab·. Webb.-Nobody objected to that, they all considered them informal ?-They did. 227. What did you do with them ?-Put them in a packet by themselves. 228. And sent them up to the House, I suppose ?-No, to the court house. 229. You are a deputy, you sent them to the returning officer?-Yes, Mr. J ones. 230. Did you seal them up?-Yes. 231. What did you mark them ?-There were seven packages, some marked informal papers,.

informal, others were correct. Then there was a bundle of rolls. 232. But this particular bundle ?-They were marked "Informal votes.'' 233. And the number ?-And the booths as well. 234. And the number of your booth ?-Yes. 235. And you sent them on to the returning officer ?-Yes, Mr. J ones. 236. B,y the Committee.-Sealed up ?-Yes, sealed up. 237. Are those informal papers tied up by themselves separate from all other papers at that

election and placed in a ballot-box ?-No, into a package. 238. You tied them into a package and sent the package on to the head returning officer?-Yes,.

sealed up. 239. But those particular papers, seven, you say, in all, were duly sealed ?-Separate from the others. 240. And marked " Informal "?-Yes, they were. 241. Seven in number ?-I think either six or seven. 242. And during the time that this was going on was there no protest or objection at all by any

member of the scrutineers ?-No, none at all. 243. They all agreed ?-Yes, they did. 244. That they should be placed on one side ?-Yes, they did.

The witness withdrew.

William Shaw sworn.-Examined by 1J.fr. A. G • .fricintyre.

William Sllaw, 245. What are you ?-Assistant county court bailiff. 14thAugusttsss 246. Did you act as poll clerk at the late election in Ballarat West ?-Yes.

247. In what booth did you act ?-No. 8, I think. 248. For Ballarat West Proper, that is ?-Yes. 249. Do you recollect the circumstance of adding up the votes at the end of the election ?-Yes. 250. Do you recollect whether any ballot-paper was set aside?-Yes. 251. On what ground ?-There was one ballot-paper, it said "No more majors." Another had two

names " Ronaldson '' wrote slanting that way-[ the witness illustrated tlte same ]-at the end of the names. Another one was a cross right in the centre from the christian names to the surname, touching each of them. There was another one that l1ad some marks at the end, but I could not say exactly what. I have not a distinct remembrance of that, but another one voted for four.

252. However, all those ba1lot-papers were set aside as informal ?-Yes. 253. They were not reckoned in the computation of the votes ?-They were not. 254. Not for any candidate ?-No. 255. Were those ballot-papers tied up in a separate parcel ?-Yes. 256. And forwarded, I suppose ?-In the usual way. I saw them sealed, tied, and everything. 257. By Air. Webb.~'~Nere the scrutineers all present at this time ?-The scrutineers were all there. 258. Did they agree that they were informal ?-They did. 25D. All of them ?-Yes. 260. By tlte Committee.-How many papers altogether were there ?-There were five scrutineers

but one man was the cause of it. He came and looked at it .and the others looked at it, and then they all saw the papers after that.

9

261. Had all the candidates scrutineers there ?-There were five scrutineers there. 262. How many candidates were there ?-Seven. 263. Seven candidates and five scrutineers ?-Yes. 264. Then two camlidates had no scrutineers ?-I could not say whether they were acting for two

at a time, I only know one of the men ; I did know him by name personally, the others were strangers to me, any more than knowing one of them by sight.

265. Was the question of allowing these informal votes debated at all by you?-No, it was decided by the deputy returning officer that it was an informal vote, and they concurred in the same thing that it was informal.

266. No demnr to a ballot-paper with a cross in front of the name ?-Yes. It was this way, it was showed bus and they looked at it, and they all decided it was an informal paper.

267. By 1Wr. A. G. Mcintyre.-Was there one put aside for debate afterwards?-Yes, there was. 268. And in the hurry what became of it ?-It was one that was marked "Ronaldson '' at two ends

of the name. 269. It was put aside-was it afterwards considered ?-It was so late we had to get candles, we had

about 150 more votes than anybody else, and it was put in with the defaulting papers, I think, without looking at it again.

270. It was put aside purposely for consideration, and yet in consideration of the lateness of the hour and the scarcity of candles it was not looked at again ?-I may mention it was one of the earliest papers.

271. By 1f1r. TJ'ebb.-That was one with the name Ronaldson upon it?-Yes.

The witness witl1drew.

Mr. A. G. Mclntyre submitted that he had made out a case for a scrutiny of these papers. Mr. Webb was heard to object to the scrutiny. At the request of the Committee the Shorthand Writer read from the evidence of Mr. Christy the

following question and answer, "Did Mr. Jones's scrutineer agree to their being set aside?-Yes, they all agreed to that."

The Committee-room was cleared.

The Committee deliberated.

After some time, the counsel and parties were again called in and informed by the Chairman that the Committee had decided to allow the partial scrutiny of the informal papers applied for.

Charles Gavan Duffy, junior, sworn.-Examined by Jir, A. G. _lfclntyre.

Wllllam Sbaw, contintud,

14tb Augnst 1883

272. Do you produce the papers ?-I produce the papers set aside at the Ballarat West election. Cllarles G.Dllfi1, 273. At No. 8 booth ?-This, I presume, contains all of them. It is marked simply" 21 parcels set l4tb l~~:hssa

aside ballot-papers." The witness withdrew.

Mr. A. G. ~lfclntyre applied that the parcel might be opened, and the papers set aside at No. 8 booth be separated.

jlfr. Webb was heard to ask that the evidence be completed before the packet was opened. The parcel was opened by the Chairman, and the sealed packets therein were examined, and packet

"P, Q, R," for the Ballarat 'Vest division, was removed therefrom. The packet selected was opened by the Chairman, who read the endorsement thereon.

The voting-papers contained in the packet were counted by the Chairman, and found to be seven in number.

Jfr. A. G. Mcintyre applied that the votes might be taken one by one. The Chairman, having examined the papers, found that four of them had each four names upon

them, and those were set aside as informal. The other three papers were then examined. The Chairman pointed out that, as to two of the papers, neither the petitioner nor the sittina

member was interested, as both names were crossed out on both of them, and that one paper hau :Mr. J ones'~ name unerased, it having a small cross between the christian names, and another name being partially erased.

Mr. Mclntyre submitted that the vote should be recorded for Mr. Jones, inasmuch as the voting­paper showed the intention of the voter to record his vote, and was heard to address the Committee in sup­port of his contention.

Jtr. Webb was heard to argue that the ballot-paper being upon the face of it a bad one, the intention of the voter to vote for Mr. J ones could not be entertained.

The Committee-room was cleared.

The Committee deliberated.

After a short time the counsel and parties were called in and informed by the Chairman that the Committee had decided that the vote should be allowed to count for Mr. Jones.

Jfr. A. G. J1cintyre applied under section 122 of The Electoral Act 1865 that the castincr vote of the returning officer, given in favour of Mr. Fincham, should be disallowed, as there was no longer"' a tie.

Mr. Webb was heard to argue that the vote had been this morning struck out of the list of votes objected to, and further that the Committee had not arrived at the conclusion of the case; and that if, at the conclusion of the sitting member's case, it was found that the vote struck off at his instance still left him equal with Mr. Jones, it would then be the time to ask for the striking off of the returning officer's vote.

The Chairman intimated that the Committee were of an opinion that the present was not the time to consider the objection to the returning officer's vote.

2 8.-D.-No. 3. D

R. Wi!l!tlills, 14th August 1813

10

Richard Williams sworn.-Ex:amined by Jfr • .A. G. }fcinl!Jre.

274. What are you ?-Wheelwright. 275. Where do you residP, ?-Skipton-street. 276. Skipton-street-where ?-No. 41. 277. Skipton-street, Ballarat West?-Yes. 278. Are you a ratepayer ?-I am a ratepayer. 279. Does your name appear on the ratepayers' roll ?-Yes. 280. Is that your name, No. 38:~7, Richard Williams, Skipton-street, wheelwright-is that your

name and description ?-That is my name and description. 281. Is there any other Richard Williams in the same street, a wheelwright? -I do not think so. 282. Are you not sure-it is not a large street, is it ?-It is a pretty long street. I do not know of

one in Ballarat. 283. Did you attend to vote at your proper booth on the occasion of the last general election at

Ballarat ?-I did. 284. Where did you intend to vote-which booth ?-I could not tell the number of the booth. 28.5. Was it in Ballarat West Proper ?-In Ballarat West, the State school No. 33. 286. What happened when you attended to vote-did you ask the returning officer for a ballot~

paper?-Yes, and he refused me it.

street. 287. What street was the booth ?-Dana-street. I went to State school No. 33, in Dana-

288. Which number did you vote at out of those?-[ showing the witness a placard already put in. J Mr. Webb objected. 289. By Mr. A. G.Mcintyre.-You attended in the Ballarat West division ?-In the Ballarat West

division. 290. In the State school, Dana-street ?-In the State school, Dana-street. 291. Now what happened when you asked for a ballot-paper?-They refused it tome. 292. Whom did you ask ?-I do not know the name of the person at the table. 293. Was it the officer at the head of the table, the deputy returning-officer ?-He was at the head

of the table. 294. He generally sits there, I believe. What reason was assigned for the refusal of the ballot-

paper ?-He first said--29.5. Who refused you ?-The man at the head of the table. I do not know his name. 296. What did he say ?-He refused me the paper, saying I had already recorded my vote. 297. Had you reccrded your vote ?-I had not, and I told him I had not. 29R. You wished to vote for whom ?-I was going to vote for Mr. Jones. I did not tell him that.

Cross-examined by ~'tlr. Webb. 299. You do not know who the gentleman was ?-I do not, sir. 300. He told you you had voted already ?-Yes, that was the reply he made to me. 301. Who else were you going to vote for beside Mr. Jones-l1ad you made up your mind ?-Yes,

I had. I intended to vote for Major Smith and Mr. Bell. 302. Major Smith, Mr. Bell, and Mr. Jones ?-Yes. 303. You do not know what particular booth you went to ?-I do not know the number of the booth

I went to. 304. You do not know the gentleman you spoke to ?-Ko, I do not know him either. 305. Do you know anybody that was there ?-Yes. 306. Who was there ?-One of tile scrutineers. 307. Who was he ?-Christopher W alton. 308. And did you ask for a ballot-paper ?-Yes. 309. What did they tell you ?-They told me first I had already voted. 310. What did they tell you afterwards ?-Afterwards they said, if I had not, somebody else had. 311. Did you still ask for a ballot-paper ?-Yes. 312. Did they give you one ?-No. 313. Did you insist upon getting one ?-They told me they could not give me one unless I applied

to the returning officer, Mr. J one~, and he would give me an order for a ballot-paper. 314. They do not seem to have known their duty. Did you tender your vote then ?-No, I did not. 315. You did not know, I suppose, that there was a provision in the Act iu such a ease that you

should give your vote, and it should be put on one side?-They told me that if I applied to Mr. J ones, the returning officer, for the ballot-paper, he would give me a ballot-paper, and I could Yote upon it, but it would not enter the ballot-box.

316. Did you do so ?-No. 317. Why not-you were told what to do ?-I did not think it worth the trouble, if it was not going

to be recorded, it really would not be worth the trouble. 318. But it might have been recorded, it would be some use your putting it in, it is of course pointed

out in the Act, you know ?-Yes, that is right enough. 3Hl. It was not worth the trouble of going to the returning officer to get the paper ?-I did not do so. 320. Did you tell him what your business was ?-Yes. 321. Did you say a wheelwrigllt or a miner ?-I said a wheelwright. 322. Do you know that there is a Mr. Richard Williams, a miner ?-There is a Richard Williams,

miner, living in Armstrong-street, I do not know him. 323. Two above you on the roll, 3834 ?-He lives in Armstrong-street, if I make no mistake. 324. Polls at the same booth ?-I expect so, I did not see him. 325. Do you know him ?-I do not. 326. By .Mr. A. G. 11fclntyre.-Do you know Mr. Jones, the returning officer ?-I could not say

that I do ; I think not. 327. But this person at the head of the table refused your vote?-Yes.

11

328. And then you thought you could not vote ?-I thought I could not vote to be of any service. 329. Was the returning officer in that booth-l.\Jr. Jones ?-No. 330. Did he tell you where to go ?-He told me to go to the bank to see him.

The witness withdrew. Mr . .A. G. Mcintyre called Mr. Wooldridge. The Ghairman.-}l!r. 'Vooldridge was not in your first list of witnesses . .Afr . .A. G. Mcintyre stated that it was this person whom, in his opening statement he said he

would ask leave to add to the list, and was heard in support of his application.

William Henry Wooldridge sworn.-Examined by Mr . .A. G. Mcintyre.

R. Wlllia.ms, conliftued

14th August '1883

331. What are you ?-A mining manager. Wllllam lteJU7 332. Did you act as scrutineer at the last election at Ballarat West for the Legislative Assembly?- Wooldrldge

1•88 14th August 3

Yes. 333. At what division did you act ?-It is in the central, I think. 334. At what booth-do you recollect the booth ?-In the large school. 335. The State school Dana-street, I suppose?-Yes. 336. By the Committee.-Do you recollect the letters at the booth-who was the returning officer?

-Mr. Batten. 1l1r • .A. G. Mcintyre.-That is No. 11 booth. The Chairman.-Yes, that is correct according to what is written on this. 337. By Mr . .A. G. Mcintyre.-For whom were you scrutineer at that election ?-Mr. Jones. 338. Do you know Richard Williams ?-Yes. 339. Of Skipton-street, wheelwright ?-I know him by seeing him to-day ; I did not know him at

the time. 340. Do you recognise him as the person who presented himself?-Yes. 341. Where did you see him P-At the booth. 342. What was he doiJJg there ?-Came there to vote. 343. Did he vote ?-No. 344. Why did not he vote ?-Another Richard Williams, of Skipton-street, had voted just before

he came in. 345. And he was not allowed to vote ?-And he was not allowed to vote. 346. And this is the person whose name appears upon the roll ?-That is the man that claimed the

vote. 347. That is the man that applied for a ballot-paper, and the deputy did not give him a ballot­

paper ?-He did not give him a ballot-paper on account of the other man voting. 348. Did he ask for a ballot-paper ?-Yes, he came in the usual way asking to vote. 349. Did the deputy put to him any questions ?-Asked him where he lived. He said he had been

living in Skipton-street, and then he referred to one of the scrutineers sitting by my side, and, of course, he confirmed what he said, that he knew him, and knew him to be living in Skipton-street, and said the other Richard Williams-he knew the other Richard WilliamR, and knew he had been living in Skipton· street, hut did not know he had left just at the time, and never doubted but that the one that voted was the right Richard Williams.

350. Was the one who voted a wheelwright ?-No, a miner. 351. Then he could not possibly have been the right man ?-1 am doubtful about his mention of a

wheelwright; I would not be positive as to that. Cross-examined by Mr. Webb.

352. You knew the other Mr. Williams that voted ?-Knew him well. 353. You knew he was not a wheelwright ?-1 have said that. 354. Do you say that, knowing hi.m well, and knowing he was not a wheelwright, you allowed him

to vote as the wheelwright, and you were Mr. Jones's scrutineer, is that it ?-We did not doubt for a moment.

355. But you knew he was nota wheelwright ?-He was one Richard Jones, of Skipton-street. 356. By the Gommittee.-J ones is not the name ?-Richard Williams. 357. By ~1fr. Webb.-A man comes in to vote; what did the first one say when he came in to vote?

-He just came in the usual way; we asked his name-" Richard Williams.'' ")Vhere ?''-" Skipton­street."

358. You knew he was a miner?-Yes. 359. And so you gave him a paper to vote as a wheelwright ?-I do not think there was anything

said about a wheelwright at all, by any one. 360. You had it ::;taring you iu the face there, if you had a list, had not you-bad you your poll-hook

with you ?-Yes. 361. Did not you see there were two Richard Williamses, one a miner and the other a wheelwright.

This one that came up yon knew to be a miner, and you allowed him to vote, and I suppose you struck out the wrong one here, ami when the right man came he had voted, when, in fact, neither he nor any one had voted for him. Two lines above this is Richard )Villiams, a miner, whose name does not appear to be struck out in the scrutineers' book at all. You had one of those lists before you, had not you?-Yes.

362. And you could see ''Richard Williams, Skipton-street, wheelwright," a man came up that you knew not to be a wheelwright, and you allow him to vote as a wheelwright. Did you know how he was going to vote ?-Eh?

363. You knew tl.is man, did you know how be was going to vote ?-No. 364. Not at all ?-No. 365. Not the one that came first ?-No. 366. The miner ?-No. 367. Do you know how he did vote?-No. 368. Do you know how the second one was going to vote ?-No. 369. Not an idea of that either ?-No; I do not know that I ever saw the man before. 370. You did not know the second ?-No.

12

Wlllia.m .Henry 371. Then the one you did know, and knew was not the wheelwright, you allowed to vote as the w:_::~~~' wheelwright, and the one you did not know you thought bad come before?-We did not say he was a

14th .6.ngusnssa wheelwright-we said nothiug alJout a wheelwright; we noticed a Richard Williams, a miner, there. 372. You knew Richard Williams, miner ?-Yes. 373. He came up to vote?-Yes. 374. You knew the man very well?-Yes. 375. You knew he was on the roll?-I knew he was on the roll; I believe I was under that

impression. 376. And he voted?-Yes. 377. Then by some blunder you struck out "Richard "Williams, wheelwright," and leave" Richard

Williams, miner," as not having voted at all ?-[No answer.] 378. The man you did know, and knew to be upon the roll, you gave a paper to, and he voted?­

yes, Skipton-street. 379. Now what is the objection to his vote; he was on the roll, you knew him, and knew he was

the right man-what is the objection to his vote ?-Which; the first one? 380. Yes ?-There was no objection, believing that was his vote there, Richard Williams, Skipton­

street, knowing the man lived in Skipton-street, had been in Skipton-street. 381. How do you know he was not the man that was on the roll. You know we have not got any

photographs of men on the roll-how do you know that the one you let vote was not the one on the roll, and that the one that was here this morning was off; they are both the same name?-Yes.

382. How do you know-do you undertake to say that the one that did vote was not on the roll ?­I believe he voted honestly and came in with the impression.

383. Then you do not believe he came meaning to vote for somebody else ?-No. 384. By Mr. A. G. ~lfcintyre.-What did this Mr. Richard Williams say when he came to the booth

-what did he say ?-He came in just for his paper to vote. 385. What did you ask him ?-He said he lived in Skipton-street. 386. What did Mr. Williams say-did he state that ?-We knew he had been living in Skipton­

street, he did not say he was living there. 387. When he presented himself for a ballot-paper what did he say ?-"Richard Williams," he

called out, " Skipton-street." 388. Exactly. He called out "Richard Williams, Skipton-street," and you did not ask him what

his occupation was ?-No. 389. You did not look, I suppose, to the occupation column ?-No, we dill not; we knew the man

was concct, we knew be was in Skipton-street. 390. There is no other Richard Williams in Skipton-street but this gentleman, the wheelwright ?­

We knew but that one. 391. The miner stays in Armstrong-street ?-Yes, but we did not look at Armstrong-street. 392. This is the miner who came to vote, saying he stayed in Skipton-street ?-He said he was

staying in Skipton-street. 393. By the Committee.-Was the miner crossed off the roll ? ]~fr. Webb.-No, he is on now; the wheelwright is crossed off, the miuer is not. The miner has not

voted according to that. 394. By the Committee.-Will you explain to the Committee how it is that in the face of this man

Richard Williams that you spoke about you refused to take his vote, seeing this name at the top here standing unseratched on the roll, will you explain how it is that you did not give him a ballot-paper?­Believing that the other Richard Williams had taken the vote in mistake, I thought there was some mistake, and we advised the man to go to Mr. Jones, the returning officer, as fast as he could go, and rectify it as fast as he could.

395. Then it is the fault of the returning officer and the scrutineers that they gave the ballot­paper to the wrong man, and scratched out the other ?-Yes.

396. But in face of the fact that this Richard Williams is still remaining upon the list, how do you get over it ?-[No answer.]

397. By Mr. Webb.~I believe Skipton-street and Armstrong-street are all a continuation of the same street, are they not ?-Yes.

398. Can you or anybody else tell where Skipton-street ends and Armstrong-street begins ?-Well, I am sure, I cannot.

3~19. So that that would not assist very much. You might have thought he lived in Skipton-street, and technically he might have lived in Armst.rong-street ; it is all one street, aml nobody-you at any rate cannot tell where one ends and the other begins ?-No.

~00. lJy the Committee.- ""''V ore any questions put by the returning officer, or \vas there any conver­sation at all with the Richard '\Villiams you saw this morning-any conversation in regard to ballot-papers being given to him ? -Yes.

401. What was it ?-Finding out, as we supposed, when he came in, we sr.w, or thought we saw, there was an error as he came in and claimed his ,·ote, and seemed very muel1 annoyed about it, and know­ing the other Uichard Williams, and seeing only one in Skipton-street, we advised him to go straight off and see what he could do with t.he returning officer to rectify it. I did not see anything at all about Richard '\Villiarns in Armstrong-street ; it was altogether out of the question-never dreameu of it, knowing he lived down in Skipton-street.

402. Then the returning officer did not offer this Richard Williams a ballot-paper to take under protest ?-He Haid he could not, he advised him to go straight off to 1fr. Jones, to see what he should do.

403. Mr. J ones, the returning officer ?-Yes. 40-1. What time in the day would this vote be recorded; do you remember ?-I think it would be

after four o'clock. 405. How far did the officer stay from the booth ?-I suppose the man could go there in five

minutes at the most .. J06. Did he say anything to you as to the reason he would not go there to speak to him ?-We

were under the impression he was gone there, but he never returned to us again.

The witness withdrew.

13

James Vallins again called.-Further examined by ~Yr. A. G •• Yclntyre.

Richard Williams, who had already been examined, was called in. 407. Do you recognise this gentleman ?-I do. James VaUlns,

408. What is he ?-Wheelwright, I have seen him working. l4th August 1883

409. Where does he stay ?-I believe in Skipton-street, but I have never seen him in his own house. 410. Skipton-street, Ballarat West. What are you ?-Valuer. 411. You value, I suppose, the city rates ?-I obtain all the information from which the rolls are

made up. 412. Do you compile them .?-I do not compile them myself. 413. You know this gentleman as Richard Williams, wheelwright ?-I know he is Richard

Williams. I know I have seen him working as a wheelwright. 414. Is there another Richard Williams in Skipton-street ?-Not a wheelwright. 415. By Mr. Webb.-What is the other Richard Williams ?-A miner. 416. He lives in Skipton-street also ?-He does. 417. Or in Armstrong-street ?-There is some little confusion, he lives in Skipton-street. 418. The other one, the miner ?-The miner lives in Skipton-street. 419. And the wheelwright lives in Skipton-street ?-And the wheelwright lived in Skipton-street at

the time the information was obtained. 420. Where does Skipton-street leave off and Armstrong-street begin ?-The one intersects the

other. 421. I thought thcywere a continuation of each other, so the last witness told us ?-No, they inter­

sect one another, but not at right angles. 422. By Mr. A. G. Jffclntyre.-At the time Richard Williams was put upon the roll-Richard

Williams, the miner--did he stay in Armstrong-strect or Skipton-street ? Mr. Webb objected. The Witness.-He lived in Skipton-street. 423. When the roll was prepared ?-Yes. 424. How is it be appears in Armstrong-street ?-I cannot tell how it is. It is evident one of the

two names has been rubbed off. This Richard Williams did live in Armstrong-street, but not at the time the roll was made up. It is not an uncommon thing for a man's occupation, and his address too, to be wrong upon the roll.

The witness withdrew. Richard Williams withdrew.

Mr. A. G. lffclntyre tendered the vote to the Committee as a vote to be recorded in favour of his client.

Mr. Webb objected that the charge was one of personation, and submitted that there was no proof of any attempt to personate the voter.

The Chairman intimated that the Committee would consider the question in the wider aspect, as to whether this was a vote improperly rejected.

Adjourned to to-morrow, at half-past Eleven o'clock.

WEDNESDAY, 15TH AUGUST, 1883.

Mr. Coppin, Mr. Mclntyre, Mr. W. Madden,

Members present:

Mr. DEAKIN1 in the Chair;

Mr. Thompson Moc::re, Mr. Patterson, Mr. Wheeler,

Mr. A. G. Mclntyre applied that the vote of Richard Williams might be added to the number polled for his client, on the ground that that vote had been improperly rejected, and was heard to address the Committee in support of his request.

Mr. Webb submitted that the Committee had no jurisdiction to take the vote, iuasmuch as the vote had not been given and improperly rejected, and that the present application was not to add a vote already given, but to allow Mr. Williams to give a vote.

The Committee-room was cleared. The Committee deliberated.

After a short time the counsel and parties were again called in and informed by the Chairman that the Committee had decided not to accept the vote.

John Gibb sworn.-Examined by 1llr. A. G. Mclntyre. 425. What arc you ?-An engineer. John Glob,

426. Do you recollect the fact of the last Ballarat election?-Yes. 15th Augost 1883

427. Are you on the roll of ratepayers for that district?-Yes. 428. Which division ?-I could not tell you the number of the division. 429. I do not want the number, I want the name of the division-is it Ballarat West Proper ?-Yes. 430. Is that your name, 1335-[ handing a 1·oll to the witness] ?-Yes, there is my name, W ebster-

street. ill'\1. Did you attend on the day of the election?·-Yes.

14

.rohn. Glbb, 432. Did you vote ?-I asked for my paper and they refused it to me; and I demanded it, and the uu:O.:::;~::f'u!SS returning officer told me that I could not put it in the ballot-box, but I could vote.

433. Why did he refuse you ?-Because John Gibb had voted before me ; some person had personated my name and number, and I demanded a voting-paper. The returning officer told me I could vote, but I would not be allowed to put it in the ballot-box, it would be sent down to the Attorney­General.

434. Your ballot-paper was not placed in the ballot-box ?-No. 435. How long have you lived in Ballarat ?-Twenty-three years. 436. Do you know any other John Gibb staying in Ballarat ?-~o.

Cross-examined by Mr. Webb. ,, 43·7. Where do you live in Ballarat ?-35 Webster-street. 438. And you are an engineer?-Yes. 439. Have you voted at previous elections?-Yes. 440. On the same qualification ?-Yes. 441. And you say you do not know any other John Gibb ?-No, I do not. 442. Do you know a Mr. John G. Gibb ?-No. 443. Did you never hear of him ?-No. 444. It is stated here that you were personated by a Mr. John G. Gibb-do you know who that

is ?-No, I do not. 445. All you know is that you went to vote and were told that somebody had voted before?­

Just so. 446. And as far as you know there is no other Mr. Gibb living in Webster-street?-No, not to my

knowledge. The witness withdrew.

James Vallins sworn.-Examined by Mr. A. G. Mclntyre.

James va~uns, 447. You acted as substitute returning officer at the last Ballarat election ?-Yes. Utll Aagust 1883 448. In that capacity did you visit the sevt'lral booths at the election ?-I did.

449. Do you recollect at Ballarat '\Vest Proper, in the booth, a person named John Gibb presenting himself for a ballot-paper ?-I visited the booth at the time he was there, and was told by the returning officer in charge of the booth that Mr. Gibb had been impersonated.

450. By the Committee.-Told by the officers ?-Yes. 451. By .Mr. A. G . .L}fcintyre.-The deputy returning officer ?-The deputy returning officer. -452. By Mr. Webb.-I understood Mr. Vallins was there at the time Mr. Gibb was there?-No. 453. I understood you were ?-No. 454. By the Committee.-You were not there ?-Yes, Mr. Gibb was there at the time, but he was

not there at the time I came in ; his vote was refused him before I entered the booth, but he was there claiming his vote at the time I was there.

well.

ltfr. Webb objected to second-hand evidence of what the returning officer said to the voter. 455. By "lfr. A. G .. Maintyre.-Do you know this Mr. ,John Gibb P-Yes. 456. Do you know any other Mr .• Tohn Gibb ?-I know Mr. John Cook Gibb. 457. But not upon the roll ?-No, he was out of the country at the time that roll was made up. 458. Were you informed that the ballot-paper had been received. Mr Webb objected.

Cross-examined by Mr. Webb.

459. Do you know a }Ir. John G. Gibb ?-That is a mistake, it is John C. Gibb, I know the man

460. You say he was out of the country at the time ?-He was out of the country at the time. 461. At the time of the election ?-No, at the time the roll was made out, he had returned before

the election and then purchased property again. 462. Was he on the ratepayers' roll ?-No. 463. Was he a ratepayer ?-No, not then. 464. He had been for a good many years ?-Yes, till he went home. 465. Where did he live ?-Part of the time, for some years, he lived in Windermere-street, and later

still in Urquhart-street. He is now living in Ascot-street. -166. And he was a very old resident of Ballarat ?-A very olJ. resident, always entitled to a vote till

that year. 467. I suppose the poll clerk and scrutineers wonlil all know this man ?-No, he is a retiring man, a

man of retiring disposition, but the last man I think to do a wrong. 468. Do you think he meant to personate this man ?-No, I am quite sure he did not. From what I

know of the man for many years I am quite sure be did not. 469. He went to vote as John Gibb ?-Yes. 470. And he voted as John Gibb, I suppose ?-Ami he voted as John Gibb, I suppose. 471. And he went to vote for himself and not for some one else?-Yes, I have not a doubt about it. 472. By the Committee.-IIe thought he was upon the roll ?-Yes. 473. By .illr. A. G. llfcintyre.-When did J. C. Gibb go home ?-He left Ballarat probably six

montbs before the roll was made up. 474. And therefore he did not appear upon the roll ?-That is why he did not appear upon the roll

-yes. The witness withdrew.

lrfr. A. G. lrlclntyre applied for the production of the ballot-paper tendered by John Gibb at booth No. 3, at the State school, Dana-street, and ask ell that the vote should be added to the poll for the petitioner

Mr. Webb submitted that the evidence did not disclose any personation.

..

15

The Chairman inquired whether Mr. A. G. Mclntyre claimed that the vote of J. C. Gibb should be struck off.

flfr. A. G. Mclntyre replied that he did not at present make that claim . .flfr. Webb submitted that the objection, as furnished by the agents for the petitioner to the coumel

for the sitting member, really was to remove the vote alre~tdy recorded, and objected to the vote of John Gibb being added until the vote of J. C. Gibb was removed.

The Chairman inquired of Mr. Webb whether he asked the Committee to deal with the vote of J. C. Gibb.

Mr. TFebb replied in the affirmative, but stated that he understood Mr. A. G. Mclntyre asked for the addition of John Gibb's vote in the first instance.

Charles Gavan Duffy, junior, sworn.-E.x:amined by .. 'tlr. A. G. Mcintyre.

475. Do you produce the ballot-papers of No. 3 booth, in Ballarat West Proper division ?-There Charl!li!G.Dull)',

are three packages of used ballot-papers here. They are not marked in divisions. They are marked 15th r.:'~!t 188&

"Used ballot-papers, Ballarat West." They are made up in separate parcels-six parcels together in one large parcel, and five parcels in another.

The Witness produced three parcels, which were handed to the Chairman, and one of the parcels was opened by him.

The witness withdrew.

James Vallins again called.-Examined by Mr. A. G. llfcintyre.

476. What are the names of the poll clerk, do you recollect, or of the deputy returning officer and JamesValllos, poll clerk on No. 3, Ballarat West Proper-the State school, where Mr. Gibb would vote. Do you recol- lSthA.ugusttaas

lect the name ?-[No answer.] 477. By tlte Committee.-Or the place ?-The place was No. 33 State school. 478. Little Bendigo ?-No, Ballarat West Proper. The deputy returning officer would be Mr.

Towers, if I recollect properly. The witness withdrew.

The Chairman having examined the endorsements upon the packets contained in the parcel already opened, proceeded to open a second parcel, and examined the endorsements upon the packets therein contained. The third packet was then opened, and the packet endorsed by Mr. Towers, returning officer, and Mr. Clark, poll clerk, was selected therefrom, and opened by the Chairman, who, assisted by other members of the Committee, made search for the voting-paper numbered 1335, which, being found, the Chairman stated that the vote did not affect either of the parties interested.

Mr. A. G. lJlcint.IJre applied that the ballot-paper of John Gibh, which had been tendered and rejected, should be admitted as a vote.

JJJr. Webb asked that a separate parcel in which, according to the Act, papers set aside were to be placed, should be produced and identified, and referred the Committee to section 123 of the Act which defined the duties of the returning officer.

Mr. A. G. Mcintyre was heard to contend that the packets already produced showed that the law had been complied with.

Charles Gavan Duffy, junior, again called.-Examined by Mr. A. G. Mcintyre.

The Witness produced a parcel. 479. Are those the set aside papers ?-Those are the set aside papers.

The witness withdrew.

The Chairman having opened the parcel and selected a packet marked "One set aside ballot-paper from the poll taken at booth No. 3, Dana-street State school,'' :l\-Ir. Towers, returning officer, and Mr. Clarke, poll clerk, opened the packet and produced the ballot-paper.

The Chairman.-This is a vote both for Mr. Fineham and for Mr. Jones. Mr. A. G. Mcintyre stated that he did not intend to proceed with the case of Jamcs Shanahan, on

the ground that Mr. Shanahan, junior, had voted for both parties, and therefore it would not affect the result.

Resolved-That the vote of J. C. Gibh be disallowed. Resolved-That ,John Gibb's vote be recorded. Mr. A. G. Mclntyre was heard t:> ask that the votes of E. H. L. Swifte and Christopher Bailey

might be removed on tbe grounds first, that they voted in a division upon t.he roll for which their names did not appear, reserving his case first as to whether persons voted out of their division or not, and reserving also the point whether persons voted who had no right to vote at all.

1l1r. Webb was heard to object to any decision until all the gl'ounds of objection by Mr. A. G. :Mclntyre had been heard.

Mr . .A. G. Mcintyre was heard to object to the votes, first upon the grounds that the voters were not upon the roll for that division, and that the onus of showiog they were upon the roll would lie upon the other side.

The Chairman intimated to Mr. A. G. :Mcintyre that the Committee would prefer to hear all his objections at once.

~wr . .A. G. Mcintyre was heard further to object to the votes of .Mr. S·wifte and Mr. Bailey on the grounds, first, that the votes of those gentlemen were wrongly received in the division in which they were taken; second, that those gentlemen voted out of their right division ; third, that the returning officer and poll clerk were, from their very office, incapacitated from voting at all.

Mr. Webb stated that, before addressing the Committee upon the subject, he would call evidence.

Charles G. Dull)', junior,

15th August 1883

c. E&ilP:V, 15Lh Augnst. lASS

16

Christopher Bailey sworn.-Examined by Mr. Webb. 480. You were deputy returning officer at the last election for Ballarat West ?-Yes. 481. At what booth were you acting?-The Western Road-the Windermere. 482. Will you look at this electoral roll-[ handing the same to the witness ]-where do you reside?-

Ballarat West. 483. Where ?-Soldiers' hill. 484. Sturt-street ?-Lydiard-street; I have property in Sturt-street-all about Ballarat. 485. I only want to identify the gentleman here. Y on have property in Sturt-street ?-Yes. 486. What are you by profession ?-I have a business, but I do not engage myself in any business. 487. You have a business as a photographer, I believe?-Yes. 488. Look at the roll-is that your name and description, "No. 175, Christophcr Bailey, Sturt­

street, photographer"?-Y cs, I believe that is my name ; there is no other Christopher Bailey in Ballarat but myself.

489. On the day before the election did you obtain a general roll from the returning officer ?-Y cs. 490. Did you tell him what you wanted it for ?-Yes. 491. Was Mr. Vallins present also ?-He was. 492. That is Mr. Jones, Mr. Vallins, and yourself were present ?-And Mr. Swifte m Mr. Jones's

room at the bank. 493. Mr. Jones, Mr. Vallins, Mr. Swifte and yourself were present at Mr. Jones's room at the

bank ?-Yes. 494. And you say you asked for a general roll ?-Mr. Swifte procured one from Mr. Christy, the

registrar, and got him to sign it to certify to the correctness of it, and then brought it over to Mr. Jones's, and Mr. Vallins then signed it and certified to it.

495. As correct ?-As correct. 496. Did you tell him what it was wanted for ?-Yes. 497. ·what ?-I told him we were going out, and we wanted to record our votes. -498. \Vhat did he say ?-He asked Mr. J ones's opinion, and Mr. Jones said he would give no opinion

decidedly-! might use my own judgment. Mr. Vallins did not say one thing or the other. It seemed to me that he was inclined to think it was correct, but he did not give a decided opinion.

499. He did not give a decided opinion at all. Did he tell you that you must not vote?-Certainly not.

500. Did he tell you that he had given you the roll for the purpose of reference, but that it must ~ not be voted on ?-Oh no. He knew what I was going to do with the roll ; he knew the purpose for which I obtained the roll, and had it certified.

501. Did you or Mr. Swifte-either of you-ask him whether you could vote out of your division ? -I think the question was put to him.

502. Did he tell you positively that you could not ?-Certainly not; he did not say positively. 503. Did he tell you that you could not, without saying it positively ?-I think he did not say that

we could not, speaking from memory-! think he made no reply. He did not say positively that I could not vote, or that we could not vote.

504. Did he give you any instructions not to vote none whatever. 505. And you say it was stated the purpose for which you were getting the roll certified ?-Yes. 506. And Mr. Vallins himself certified to the roll?-Yes, I think so-l am almost positive he did

-and Mr. Christy, the registrar. 507. Did you express an opinion that you could vote ?-I did. 508. You did ?-Oh yes. I might state that the day before I asked a solicitor if he thought it

would be correct, and he said it would. I was uneasy about it for some days before. 509. If you had been told that you could not vote there, would you have accepted the position of

returning officer ?-Certainly not, I told him I would not go if I could not vote. 510. And Mr. Swifte was present at this, or was it when he was there ?-I think he was present. 511. Now what did Mr. Swifte say about it ?-He was of the same opinion that we were quite

justified in voting. 512. At this interview I speak of?-Yes. 513. He said he thought you were both justified in voting?-Yes. 514. Did Mr. Vallins tell Mr. Swifte that he could not vote, or instruct him not to do so ?-Not in

my presence. 515. On the next day you went out ?-On the next day I went out. 516. Did you remain there at the polling-booth?-Yes, till the polling was over. 517. And you took this certified roll out with you ?-The certified roll with us. 518. Will you tell the Committee what you did when you were going to vote ?-I think, speaking •·

from memory, about half-an-hour after the polling opened ; we were a few minutes late in opening the poll, we could not get the key of the room for five or ten minutes, and half-an-hour after opening the poll we told the scrutineers what we were going to do, to record our vote upon this roll we took out with us. 1 11

519. How manv scrutineers were there ?-I am not sure; one of them was a little late. I am not sure whether the third :Was present at the time or not.

520. You made no secret of it that you were going to vote ?-No, told them all. 521. Did you point out your names upon the certified roll ?-Yes, showed them the roll. 522. Did anybody object ?-None whatever, not the least objection. 523. And you and Mr. Swifte did vote?-Yes, at that time, about half-an-hour after the polling had

opened. 524. Did you then believe that you had a perfect right to vote ?-Yes, certainly. 525. You say you had fortified yourselves with a solicitor's opinion before ?-1 did.

Cross-examined by Mr . .A. G. ~~Icintyre. 526. You say your business is, what ?-I have not been in business this last-between two or three

years. 527. Are you a photographer ?-I have a photographer's place. I

17

528. Are you a photographer ?-No, I have a managing man. c. Ba.Uey,

529. This name appears on the roll as Mr. Christopher Bailey, photographer, and you are not a 15thco;:::;::·l883 photographer ?-I am not a photographer, the business premises are mine, and the business is mine.

530. You say that you asked Mr. J ones for a general roll ?-I think it was Mr. Christy that was asked. Mr. Swifte got the roll, I think, from Mr. Christy; it was either from Mr. Jones or Mr. Christy.

531. Who got it ?-Mr. Swifte. 532. You did not get it ?-No, but he brought it. 533. You said to my friend that you obtained a general roll ?-I meant to say we obtained-Mr.

Swifte and I. I think he must have gone over and got it. 534. Did you tell the returning officer at the time what you wanted it for ?-Certainly. 535. You got it from Mr. Christy ?-I got it from Mr. Christy, the registrar. 536. You did not get it from the returning officer then ?-I think not. 537. What did you get from the returning officer ?-I got nothing; Mr. Swifte was the poll clerk,

and he got the roll. 538. Were not you deputy returning officer?-Yes. 539. Did not you receive anything from the returning officer ?-I received all the papers. 540. What were the papers ?-The voting papers and the roll for the district. 541. The division of the district, I suppose ?-Yes. 542. Did you receive instructions similar to that?-Yes. 543. Will you be kind enough to read No. 17 over ?-I did read that clause over, but I was under

the impression that we coulu vote, notwithstanding that, so long as we voted in our electoral district. 544. Will you read the part commencing "No elector" ?-[The witness perused the same.] Yes,

I think I saw it. 545. In the face of that you voted ?-Yes . • 546. Would you read the margin there-what is the margin section ?-Section 90. 54 7. That is of the Act ?-Yes. 548. Y on say you had your doubts that you could vote-Yes. 549. Whom did you express those doubts to ?-To Mr. Jones. 550. Mr. J ones?-Yes. 551. When did you express the doubts ?-It was some days previous. On the same day--552. Before you were appointed?-Yes, at the time he mentioned the matter to me . • 553. When were you appointed ?-Some days before (of course) I acted. 554. Some days before he asked you ?-I was appointed some days before I acted, and then I asked

him if he thought I could vote, and he said he would give no opinion. I was doubtful, and I asked him before.

555. Before what ?-Before I was appointed. 556. When did you apply for that roll ?-We applied for the roll a day before we went out. 557. After you were appointed ?-After I was appointed, but I may mention that Mr. Jones supplied

me with a book some week or ten days before I went out-supplied me with instructions. 558. When did you vote ?-The day of the polling. 559. But what time ?-The 21st or 22nd of February. 560. But what time of the day ?-I think the poll opened at ten, I think half-past ten, about half an

hour after the opening. 561. You say ten ?-I think it was ten. 562. The Act says the polling commences at nine ?-Then it would be nine, certainly. Of course I

am speaking from memory; I thought it was ten, but it is nine according to the Act. 563. You say you were late in opening the poll ?-There was a difficulty in getting the key ; a

policeman had to--564. The poll was not open exactly at nine o'clock then ?-It was not open exactly at nine o'clock. 565. If Mr. Vallins swears that he told you positively that you could not vote out of your division

would that be stating what was not correct ?-I think so, stating from memory. 566. What did he say to you when he asked Mr. Vallins. If the returning officer also said he

was present, and heard Mr. Vallins say that to you, would he be swearing what is not correct ?-I think so, speaking from memory. I think I understood from Mr. Vallins, by his manner, that he was in favour -that we coulcl vote-he had known parties that voted, but I could not exactly say the words.

567. What did he say to you ?-I could not say exactly. 568. What did you say to him ?-I said to Mr. J ones, "'What do you think-do you think we are

correct in voting?" and he said, "I will give you no opinion, Mr. Bailey, act as you think proper.'' 569. He did not hint that you could not vote ?-Certainly not. 570. By the Committee.-Supposing an elector from any other division had asked you for a ballot­

paper, desiring to vote in the division in which you were deputy returning officer, and his name was not on the roll of your division, would you have allowed him to vote ?-Certainly not.

571. That is to say, you would allow no one to vote at your uivision whose name was not upon the roll, where you were returning officer ?-Certainly nJt ; he might have voted at another place, but there was no danger of my voting in two places.

572. That is your rea<ling of it ?-That is my reading of it. 573. As a matter of fact did you vote elsewhere ?-Cerlainly not. 574. Do you know of any one else voting in your name ?-No. 575. By Mr. A. G. Mclntyre.-Would it not be possible for some one to go and vote in your

name ?-Not the least possibility; I am one of the oldest residents in Ballarat. 576. But supposing you had been somebody else-supposing it had been another returning officer,

not so well known, who had just arrived in Ballarat a few days previously ?-He would not have been made returning officer.

577. A few months previously ?-If he had not been so well known as myself.

The witness withdrew. 2 8.-D.-No. 3, E

E. B. L. Swlfte, 16th August 1883

18

Edmund Henry Lenthal Swifte swom.-Examined by Mr Vale.

578. What are you ?-An accountant. 579. Residing in Ballarat ?-Yes. 580. Are you on the electoral roll for Ballarat ?-Yes. 581. Do you know your number?-No, I do not. 582. Where do you reside ?-Ballarat West. 583. Where in Ballarat West ?-I reside near the cattle-yards. 584. Where is your office ?-Lydiard-street. 5ti5. Look at 3142 in that r..Jll-[handing the same to the witness]. Are you the party there

described?-Yes. 586. Do you recollect the last election?-Yes. 587. Were you appointed poll clerk ?-Yes. 58ti. By Mr. Jones ?-By Mr. Vallins. 589. Did you raise the question of your right to vote in the Windermere division-you were poll

clerk at the Windermere division?-Yes, the Windermere division. 590. Did you raise the question of your right to vote at the division of which you were to be poll

clerk ?-I did. 591. In conversation with whom ?-Mr. Vallins first. 592. Can you tell the Committee the nature of the conversation ?-I spoke to him on the subject of

how I should be able to give my vote, and he said that there was no provision in the Act about it ; and I said I thought I should be entitled to vote as I was on the roll at the booth where I was going to.

593. By tlte Committee.-That you were upon the roll at the booth you were going to ?-No; as I was an elector upon the roll I should be entitled to vote at the booth to which I was going .

.-594. By Afr. Vale.-What did Mr. Vallins say to you ?-He told me that there was no pmvision. in the Act for it, that is all.

595. That is all ?-Yes. 596. Did you have any conversation with .Mr. Jones ?-Yes; I asked )fr. Jones in his office about

it, and be declined to give any advice. 597. Did you take any steps with a view of voting?-Y cs ; I asked for and obtained the general

roll for Ballarat West Proper. It was signed by the electoral registrar and by the substitute returning officer.

598. Did you tell the electoral registrar what you required ?-No, I did not tell the electoral registrar.

599. That is Mr. Christy, is it not?-Yes. 600. And the returning officer's substitute is Mr. Vallins ?-Y cs. 601. Did you tell him what you wished the certified roll for ?-Yes, I told him. 602. And he certified it afterwards ?-I presume he must have done. 603. He did certify it ?-He did certify it anyway. 604. Did he ask you for it back at any time ?-No. 605. Did you vote ?-I did. 60G. At Windermere ?-At Windermere. 607. Will you tell the Committee any circumstances in connexion with your voting ?-About half­

an-hour, I think, after the poll was opened the deputy returning officer said, ·'It is a quiet time now, I think we had better record our votes;" so I called the attention of the scrutineers then present to the fact that we intended to vote, and produced the roll, and turned it over, showing the signatures of the two officers to it-that it was a genuine roll, and they scored the names through just the same as the other roll.

608. How many scrutineers were present ?-Two, I am certain, I think three; two I know. 609. Did they raise any objection ?-They did not, nor any challenge. 610. Haised no objection or challenge. 'When the votes were counted at night how many scrutineers

were present ?-Four then. 611. Four?-Yes, four, I think, at the finish. There was one scrutineer came very late. I think he

lost his way or something. He was rather late getting to the poll. 612. Was any question raised about those two votes at night ?-None whatever. G13. \Vas any explanation offered about them ?-There was no question raised afterwards at all. 614. But they would not have been upon the roll for the 'Vestcrn Road division, would they ?-No,

they were not upon any of those rolls. 615. Was no question raised by either of the scrutineers when they were mentioned ?-No, I never

heard of any. 616. And they were reckoned in the count ?-And they were reckoned in the count. 61':". 'Tould you have accepted the position of poll clerk, if you had known it would debar you from

voting ?-No, I said so at the time in my first conversation with Mr. Vallins. 618. 1:; it correct if Mr. Vallins has said that he told }fr. Bailey and you that they could not vote

out of their division ?-Yes, he said that. 619. He said you could not ?-He said you could not vote out of your divisions, or you ought not.

I do not know what words he used. I think he said "ought not." 620. Was Mr. Swan present when you voted ?-Yes, he was. 621. Robert Swan, a farmer ?-I do not know his christian name. I know he was scrutineer for

Mr. Salter. 622. Did he protest ?-He did not. 623. Against your voting ?-No. 624. Did he protest against Mr. Bailey voting ?-No. 625. Was he present when you did vote ?-Yes, he was there.

Cross-examined by Mr. A. G. Mcintyre. 626. When did you have this conversation with Mr. Vallins ?-Several days before the election first. 627. When were you appointed poll clerk ?-I could not say.

19

628. Was it after or before ?-After. E. B. L. Bwlfta, 1 k ~ 629. After you were appointed pol cler you had a conversation ?-Yes. 1StllAugustl883

630. Then it was after you were appointed polling clerk that you made inquiries as to your right to vote?-Yes.

631. Do you recollect saying to Mr. Vallins after the election that if there was a scrutiny you knew your vote would be struck off ?-No, I am not likely to say so.

632. You did not say that ?-No. 633. If he states that you did, would that be correct ?-I do not think it is at all likely Mr. Vallins

would make such a remark. 634. From whom did you obtain this roll upon which you voted ?-I obtained it from the electoral

registrar, Mr. Christy, in the first place, and took it over to the returning officer's office. Mr. Vallins signed it there.

635. He signed it. Did you tell him what you wanted it for ?-I had told him. 636. But did you tell him, at the time he signed it, what you wanted it for?-Yes. 637. What did you say ?-That I wanted it to vote 011; I wanted to take it out there to prove that

I was entitled to vote. 638. What did he say ?-He still said, "You ought not to vote." 639. He told you you ought not to vote?-Yes. 640. I suppose you are paid for being poll clerk, are you not?--Yes.

The witness withdrew.

1~/r. Webb stated that this was all the evidence he proposed to give upon this point, and was heard to address the Committee, to submit that these votes should not be rejected.

Mr. A. G. lf'Iclntyre was heard in reply.

The Committee-room was cleared.

The Committee deliberated.

After some time the counsel and parties were again called in, and informed by the Chairman that the Committee had decided to allow the votes to remain.

Mr. A. G. Mcintyre stated that there were fleveral other cases in which he could prvve that deputy returning officers had not reccrded their vote~, because-they were told by the registrar that they could not vote. He therefore applied that their votes should now be recorded, and mentioned the case of Mr. Uren, a deputy returning officer, who was thus dehar:red from voting, a11d that if this application could not be acceded to, the election should be declared void.

The Chl'lirman intimated to Mr. Mclntyre that the Committee found he had exhausted the list of cases of which he had given notice, and were disinclined to allow him to travel further with the case, unless he could show very strong reasous.

ii'Ir. A. G. 1~1ciutyre intimated that the evidence he now asked leave to adduce would invalidate the election altogether, and related to the case of Mr. Uren.

The Chairman intimated that the opinion of the Committee was that, as the votes were not tendered at the time, and therefore no ballot-papers were producible in accordance with the previous decision in the case of "\Villiams, the Committee could not enter into the matter .

.llir. A. G. 11fcintyre submitted that, by the striking off of one vote the tie had ceased to exist, and therefore the vote of Mr. Jones, the remrning officer, was bad, and should now be struck off.

Mr. "!V ebb objected that the Committee had already deciUed that, as Mr. J ones's name was introduced into the second li8t improperly, the objection to the Yote had been struck out.

1lh. A. G. llfcintyre submitted that though at that stage of the proceedings that step might be proper, yet now that a vote h<td been struck off the application was proper.

Tlte Chai1·man suggested that the application might stand over till the Committee had heard the ease for the sitting member.

Jib. Webb was further heard to oppose the application. The C!tairman asked Mr. A. G. Mcintyre whether this was the last point in his case, and whether it

concluded the case. J:fr. A. G. 1Hcintyre replied in the affirmative. The Cha1:rman intimated that the Committee had decided to take into consideration the question of

the returning officer's vote at the termination of the sitting member's case. 1'fir. 1-J'ebb applied for an adjournment to Tuesday week to enable the sitting member to prepare his

case, and promised to hand in a list of votes objected to, if any such would form part of his case. 11'1,·. A. G. 111cintyre was heard to object to so an adjournment, and stated that he would require

a week to examine lists, if any were sent i11 by the other side.

AdJourned to Tuesday week, at Eleven o'clock.

20

TUESDAY, 28TH AUGUST, 1883.

Members present:

MR. DEAKIN, in the Chair;

Mr. Coppin, Mr. Patterson, Mr. Wheeler,

Mr. W. Madden, Mr. Mcintyre, Mr. T. Moore.

Mr. Webb was heard to address the Committee to open the case on behalf of the sitting member. Mr. A. G. hlclntyre applied to be heard by the Committee on the case of Richard Williams. The Chairman intimated that if Mr. A. G. Mcintyre believed himself able to make any statement

which he thought might have an effect in guiding the Committee on future occasions, the Committee would hear him, but that as to the case of Richard Williams Lhe Committee would not re-open it.

Mr. A. G. 1tlclntyre was heard to address the Committee on the subject to contend that the statement that the voter had an action against the returning officer if his vote were improperly rejected was not well founded, and to ask that Mr. ·williams's vote might be now recorded.

lfir. Webb was heard to object, that the case was closed. The Chairman intimated that the Committee would not re-open the case.

Terence William Purdue sworn.-Examined by 1Wr. Vale.

T, w. PIU'dne, 641. What are you ?-A saddler. 28tllAUBDitl883 642. Where ?-At Ballarat.

643. Where in Ballarat ?-Lydiard-street. 644. Do you sublet any of your property ?-Yes. 645. Have you any other property in Ballarat beside that in which you carry on your business ?-Yes. 646. Where ?-In Gre.nville-street. 647. Has your business premises more than one frontage ?-Yes. 648. One frontage to what street ?-Lydiard-street and one to Unicorn-passage. 649. Do you sublet any portions ?-I do. 650. Will you mention the names of your tenants ?-Barker, Hicks, J. H. Were and Company were

originally tenants. 651. When were they tenants ?-Up to two months since, between two and three months since. 652. Up to about June of the present year?-Yes. 653. When did their tenancy commence?--1'"fr. A. G. Mclntyre objected to the evidence as irrelevant. 65,±. By lffr. Vale.-You let the premises to vVere aud Company, and their tenancy expired about two

months ago ?-Yes. 655. When did the tenancy commence ?-Somewhere about two years before. 656. Who was the company ?-His first partner was Mr. Green and afterwards :Mr. Robert Jones,

junior. 657. Mr. Robert J ones and Mr. J. H. Were were tenants of yours ?-Yes. 658. ltlr. A. G. Mcintyre.-Is there anything to prove this partnership. How does he know who is

the partner 1 659. By Mr. Vale.- Was Mr. Robert Jones, junior, a tenant of yours ?-Yes. 660. Was :Mr. Robert J ones, senior, a tenant of yourd at any time ?-No, never. 661. Unicom-passage runs into what street ?-Into Stnrt-stroet. 662. By the Committee.-Any other street ?-Lydiard-street; it fronts on Lydiard-street and Unicorn­

passage.

Cross-examined by Mr. A. G. Mclntyre.

663. Who pays the rent of this lease ?-To me? 664. Yes ?-The cheque was signed by J. H. Were and Company. 665. To whom did you actually let the building ?-Both Mr. Jones and Mr. Were were present when

Mr. Were took it. 666. By tlte Committee.-That means ~fr. Jones, junim· ?-Yes. 667. By Mr. A. G. il'lclntyre.-How old is Mr. Jones, junior, do you know ?-I should think

twenty-three or twenty-four. 668. Do you know if there is any other person in the company besides Mr. Jones ?-No. 669. And Mr. Were ?-And l\fr. Were. 670. Mr. Robert Jones, junior, il,; well known, I suppose, as Robert Jones, junior ?-Yes. 671. By the Committee.-He is your tenant ?-Yes. 672. By 111r. Vale.-Havc you any knowledge when Mr. Robert Jones, senior, returned to the

colony ?-I have not. I do not know. 673. Was he in the colony at the time you made that agreement with Mr. Were and :Mr Jones, junior?

-I am sure he was not. 674. By the Cmnmittee.-Was the agreement between you and Jones, or between you and \V ere and

Jones ?-Between the two and me. 675. Then Were and Joncs were your tenants ?-Yes. 676. By .L11r. A. G . .Jfclnty?·e.-Yon say the agreement was made out for Were and Company?­

There was no agreement. 677. There might have been a dozen in the company, I suppose ?-Both were present. 678. By the Cormnittee.-Wcre they weekly tenants ?-Weekly tenants.

The witness withdrew.

rate.

21

James Vallins swom.-Examined by Mr. Webb.

679. In July, 1882, you were valuer for the city of Ballarat, I believe ?-I was that year, at any Jame& Valllns, 28th August 1883

680. Did you value and make out the list, or did you value and insert in the list, offices occupied by J. H. Were & Co. ?-I have no doubt I did, but I should like to have the book here.

681. You have the book here, have you not ?-I have not got it ; Mr. Marshall has it. 682. That is your writing, I think, is it not-[handing the block of a book to the witness] ?-Yes. 688. That is your block of the valuation, is it not ?-That is it. 684. What names have you got there as the occupiers r-Jonat.han ·were and Co., ·were and J ones;

Robert ,Tones, junior, on the block. Mt. A. G. Mcintyre.-Three entries. 685. By Mr. Webb.-On that block is Were and Co. is it not ?-Were and Co., Jonathan Henry. 686. That is Jonathan Henry Were, is it not ?-Yes. 687. And Robert Jones, junior ?-And Robert Jones, junior-yes. 688. Now will you look at the valuation book-[ the same was produced and handed to the witness,

who referred to the same. J Have you got the en try in that book ?-Of Were and Co. only. 689. How is it entered there ?-Simply Were and Co., Jonathan Henry. 690. Is this the rate book ?-It is the valuation book. The rate book is made from the blocks and

not from this. 691. This is here" '\V ere and Co., Jonathan Henry, and'' "brokers." You have got an" and"

there, but there is nothing following the" and" there ?-No. 692. Was that book made by you ?-Yes. 693. Is that your writing ?-Yes. 694. '\Vhat does that" and" refer to ?-I have no doubt I have received the information from some

one beside )fr. '\V ere, and I have not been able to get the name. The name inserted upon the block there in all probability was entered after the entries were made here.

695. I see. Then you put "J onathan Henry Were," and you had not then ascertained who the " Co." represented. You found it out afterwards and put it on the block ?-That is right.

696. That was the office off Sturt-street, which Mr. I>urdue.is the owner of, is it not ?-[The wit-ness referred again to the valuation book]-Yes. Terence William Purdue, saddler.

697. Terence William Purdue is the owner of that ?-Yes. 698. What is the number of that in the book ?-3577. 699. And that is the same as in the block you referred to, is it not ?-3577 ; the Chairman has it. The Chairman.-3577.

Cross-examined by Mr. A. G. Mcintyre.

700. How do you account for this-what is that meant to be there-[handing a book to the witness J ?-There has been no room, apparently. I may say that before I came to this court I had no knowledge of this number, and I did not know either of the Joneses. I rely entirely upon this book for the information. There has not Le en room evidently in the block of the form for the name of J ones, therefore I put it here. It is a very common practice.

701. You do not know that that is Robert Jones, junior ?-I know nothing more than that book states here--nothing more.

702. You do not know who the Jones is then that is in partnership with lVIr. Were ?-I bave not the remotest idea.

703. What is that book you have there-the rate book ?-Yes. 704. The name of Jones does not appear there ?-It does not. 705. Does it appear for the previous year ?-I think that is the first year that I had the name either

of Robert Jones, senior or junior, at all-Robert Jones at all in my time. 706. 27/2/82-27th February, 1882 ?-Yes. 707. What month was it entered in the rate book ?-It would be entered up shortly afterwards in

the valuation book. I may say you are confounding two things. The rate book is made up from the blocks, and not from the valuation book.

708. Have you got the rate book here ?-It is outside. 709. Will you produce it please The book was produced.) 710. By the Committee.-You copy from the blocks into the rate book ?-Yes, that is done by

another person. · 711. But you appear to have made up your roll from the butts, not from the valuation book. The

process is, the rate book is made up from those blocks, and the rolls from the rate book, altogether inlle­pendent of the other.

712. Then the rate book is an exact copy of your butts ?-That is right. 718. Now take the corresponding valuation and number to that of Were's ?-Were and Jones­

Jonathan Henry and Robert. 714. By Mr. A. G. frlcinlyre.-Not junior?-Not junior. 715. '\Vere and Jones-Jonathan Hanry and Robert-not junior. Is that the gentleman whose

name appears upon the roll there ?-From the description I should be able to tell you. 716. Where is Unicorn-passage ?-Off Sturt-street. It is all placed in Sturt-street-[1'iferring to the

book]-Yes, !hat would be the name. 717. Do you know when Mr. Robert Jones returned to the colony ?-I do not. I do not know

anything about him. 718. By the Committee.-When did you put the name of J ones in the opposite blank to that on

which it should be ?-In all probability, judging from this, it has been done a considerable time after the valuation was made most probably.

719. A considerable time after ?-Y cs, most probably, as it is a difficult matter to get all the names sometimes going round.

720. But when you discover who it should be, do not you get the name ?-No, because the valuation book must be closed at a certain date.

22

James Valllns, 721. But the name was in the block before yon filled up the book ?-Not before the valuation, but 28th~:u~isaa evidently before the rate book, since it appears upon the rate book.

722. How long is it since the rate book was made up ?-The mte book is always being made up as the work progresses, and it is completed afterwards, and any additional names put in, or alterations, are put in before it is signed.

723. Is the name of junior behind that name ?-The name of junior is here upon the block. I am not in a position to say when it was written.

7:24. By the Committee.-0£ course you cannot say when it was put in the rate book, because you did not put it there ?-I did not.

725. If that name is added afterwards, would it not come in a different place from the place it would occupy if it was put in in the ordinary course, writing it from those books ?-No.

726. You keep a blank for it ?-No, it is upon the same line. 727. There is room to put it afterwards ?-Yes. 728. How long is one of these rate-book blocks current-how long is it in your possession ?-Until

the 11th of June. 729. From January till June?-Yes. 730. And in the course of that time, if you discover anything fresh about any particular property,

are you in the habit of making a note in it, opposite that property ?-Yes. 731. So you cannot fix the rating any more than to say it might have been any time after February

to June ?-I really cannot say ; it might have been twelve months afterwards, for the matter of that. In travelling round afterwards, I take these books with me and mark any ch11nges, but I could not, without this, say whether there was a change or was not.

732. I see you make notes continually-notes about change of places, notes about individuals-they seem to have been taken down as you received the information ?-That is right.

733. When would you receive the information-before your calling again ?-Judging from the rate book, it must have been before the 11th of June, or it would not have appeared here.

734. You said the rate book was made up from the block-that is not so, here is Robert Joncs, junior?-You must call some one else to explain why the "junior" is not pnt in the rate book.

735. Y on say the ba~is of the rate book upon which that electoral book is made is this block, and it is not so, for Robert J ones, junior, is here, and it is not in the rate book ?-I did not copy it.

736. How was it when 1\:Ir. A. G. ::VIcintyre asked you the question a few minutes ago-I could not follow it at the time-he said, "There is no junior or senior here, it is simply Robert Jones "?-Yes.

737. By 1lfr.A. G . .1liclntyre-You said it was made up on the 27th February, 1882 ?-Yes. 738. And you say that book is made up on the 11th June ?-At that time I am quite sure the name

Robert Jones was not upon the book. 739. What time ?-27th February. i40. By the Committee-,Vhat makes you sure of that ?-Because it is not in my valuation book,

and I should have put it there. 741. It is in the same ink ?-We always use the same kind of pencil. 742. By .Mr. A. G. llfcintyre-It may have been done any time?-Yes. 743. The mto book is the officiallist?-Yes. 7-.IA-. And there is no "junior'' appended to the name ?-No. 145. By the Committee.-N o. 1751 upon the roll-do you know that the name of Robert Joncs

appears upon the ratepayers electors' roll under that ?-That description is the same as in the rate book.

7 46. It is identical with it ?-Yes. 747. There is no "junior'' P-No, not here. 748. ~othing to direct any one as to whether it is the same ?-No; this book is made up just as if

Robert .Tones had wanted to vote in the name of his father. I do not say he did it, but he did it just as if Robert Jones wanted to vote as Robert J ones, without "junior" or anything else.

Re-examined by Mr. Webh. 749. Do you kuow that seal and signature there at the end of the rate book ?-It is not my

writing-those are the councillors. 7 50. They are other people's signatures that I am asking you if you know ?-Yes. 751. They arc signatures of councillors, are they not ?-Yes; the mayor and councillors. 7 52. And the seal of the corporation?-Yeg, and the seal of the corporation. 7.'53. What is the date of that ?--The 12th day of June. 7 54. Then, of course, no alteration coul,l be made in the rate book after it had been signed by the

council nnd scaled ?-Yes, by the permission of the council. i55. Then, by pcrmiBsion of the council, it might be altered ?-Yes, any alteration that may be

necessary to make. 7 5G. And then the date would be put to it, I suppose?-Yes ; there would be a memorandum. 757. A memorandum opposite stating it had been done with the permission of the council ?-Yes,

stating the date the resolution was passed. 758. Will you look at the one in question, No. 3577 ?-Yes. 759. That Jonathan Henry and Robert has no such memorandum opposite to it ?-None. 760. Then they must have been there before the rate book was signed by the council ?-I have no

doubt about it. 761. Hy tlte Committee.-Do you know this Jones, junior, yourself ?-I do not. 762. You do not know anything about him ?-I do not. 7G3. You do not know Jones, senior ?-I do not. 7G4. How did yon ascertain, how did you obtain your information as to Robcrt J ones, junior?­

I usually call at the place and endeavour to sec the persons if I can. 765. Did not you sec him before ?-I do not know, most likely I did. 76G. You do not know whether you saw him or not ?-No; it is some months ago, and there are

6,000 or 7,000 people to visit. I make all inquiries to satisfy myself that the information is correct.

23

7G7. And since this case started have you made any inquiry whatever to refresh your memory?- Jo.me11V:J.ns, None whatever. I heard the books were coming here, and I thought it would be more satisfactory to this ~su.7:;uatl883 court if I did not do so.

The witness withdrew.

William Marshall sworn.-E:x:amined hy Mr. Vale.

768. You are rate collector for the city of Ballarat, are you not ?-I am. 769. How long have you been rate collector for the city of Ballarat ?--;J:/r. A. G. Mclntyre objected to the witness being examined, as the name upon the list of witnesses

supplied to the Committee was J. Marshal!. 770. By Mr. Vale.-How long have you been rate collector ?-Nineteen years. 771. Will you produce the valuer's book for the rating which took place in June, prior to June last

year ?-This is it here-[referring to the same]. 772. You have nothing to do with the preparation of that book ?-No. 773. Do you prepare the ratepayers' roll ?-Yes, the rate book and the roll also. 774. Have you the rate book also this is it-[rifer1'ing to the same]. 775. How do you get the information for the rate book ?-From the butts, the valuation butts. 776. That is one of the butts-[lwnding the same to the witness J ?-That is one of the butts. 777. Will you look at it and see if 1t is one of the year we are talking about ?-Yes, for the year

1882-83. 778. Will you refer to the case of Were and J ones ?-This is it here. 779. No. 3577 ?-Yes. 780. Do you see that document ?-Yes. 781. Had you that documeut when you prepared the rate book?-Yes, this was the document it was

prepared from. 782. Speaking of that document, do you apply the word "document" to the writing on both sides?

-Yes. 783. That is to say-- ?-The names are often given upon this side where there are more than one,

because there is not room here. 784. When there is not room in the printed form, the necessary information is placed upon the blank.

side of the butt ?-Yes. 785. That is the usual practice?-That is the usual practice. 786. Will you refer to the rate book and tell the Committee what evidence you take to make up the

rate book ?--JI.Ir. A. G. Jlfcintyre objected. The Witness.-1 did not personally write this out ; it was made by another officer of the department,

and the name is down here-W<'re and Jones, Jonathan Henry and Robert; Jonathan Henry referring to Were and Robert to J ones.

787. Do you know Robert Jones ?-Not personally. 788. But by sight ?-No. 789. Or repute ?-No ; I heard of him, I do not know the person. 790. Do you check that book ?-This book is checked in the office. 791. By JI.Ir. A. G. Mclntyre.-Not by you ?-Not necessarily by me. 792. By the Committee.-It may have been by you, you do not know ?-It is very likely by me, but

not necessarily ; there are three officers. 793. By 1Ur. Vale.-Do you prepare the rate roll of electors from that ?-A portion of it. 794. The ratepaying portion of it?-Yes. 795. Is that prepared by you-[ handing a roll to the witness] ?-No; I have a book outside­

fproducing the same]-and copy into this book here those who pay rates and those who default, and the combination of those form the Assembly roll.

796. That is all persons who are liable to pay rates go on the Assembly roll ; only those persons who have paid them go upon the municipal roll ?-That is all.

797. Is Robert ,Jones upon that roll ?-Robert Jones is here. 798. What is his phwe and qualification ?-Broker ; office, Sturt-street. 799. Along with any one else ?-Yes; but, of course, he is put by himself here. Were and Jones

is here, but he is put amongst the J's, and 'V ere amongst the 'V's. 800. Is there no identification ?-Yes, a number. 801. What is it ?-3577. 802. And that applies both to Were and Jones ?-Yes. 803. And that applies to all the books ?-Yes. 804. No. 3577 applies both to Were and J ones?-Yes, and to those two books. 805. When you have prepared that list of both classes of persons, those who have paid rates and

tkose liable to pay them, you forward it to whom ?-The registrar, Mr. Christy.

Cross-examined by JI.Ir. A. G. i'I-Icintyre. 806. In what capacity do you act when you make out this register, the ratepaying roll of electors?

-It is left to the office. 807. Which office ?-To the rate office. 808. The rate office ?-The rate office; and the officers compile it for the town clerk. 809. Then the town clerk is the person who is responsible ?-I presume so by the Act. 810. Then you know nothing about it, really ?-I know that it is compiled in the office by my

brother officers and myself. 811. But you know nothing about it individually, you cannot swear anything about it in your official

capacity ?-I scarcely understand you. 812. Do you know anything about it in your official capacity ?-I know the writing, I know that

ledger there is written by my fellow clerk, I know that perfectly well.

W.MII'Sball, ll8tb August 1883

W4 Mar~ba!l, r.outinued.

28th August 1883

D&v!d Christy, :16th A.ugust 1883

24

813. Who is your brother clerk ?-Mr. Lydiard. 814. Allow me to see that small book?-[ Tile boolt was handed to the lem·ned counsel.] 815. Did you make out that-is that your writing ?-No. 816. What is this meant for, this hieroglyphic ?-It is not a hieroglyphic, it is a cross to mark the

place to save time. 817. ,Just read that please again for the information of myself and the Committee?-" Robel't Jones,

broker, briek ofliee, Sturt-street, one vote." 818. By tile Committee.-Is that eonsidered a proper transcript of the information that that person

who copied that received from this book ?-It wants the "junior." 819. But is that a proper transcript ?-It is short of" junior," that is all I can say. 820. Then the "junior" is not a necessity of description at all ?-It ought to be there, but I am not

responsible at all for his writing. 821. It might be some other Robert J ones ?-No, it could not be that, the number fixes it; we go by

the number in the book. No. 3577 fixes this particular Jones as the Jones. 822. By if'Jr. A. G. Mcintyre.-There may be two Joneses ?-Not Robert in the same office. 823. There might be for all you know ?-I beg your pardon. 824. Do not you think there might be ?-I think it is possible, but it is not likely.

The witness withdrew.

David Christy sworn.-Examiued by Mr. Webb.

825. You are the electral registrar for Ballarat West, I believe?-Yes. 826. As electral registrar do you receive from the corporation a list of ratepayers ?-Yes. 827. Did you receive the list for last year?-Yes. 828. Have you got it here ?-I have not it here; it is in the passage, in the hands of Mr. Ferres, the

Government Printer. 829. What do you do with it when you get it ?-I number them after they are in my possession. 830. And you make up from those lists the electral roll ?-The general roll. 831. The ratepayers' roll ?-Yes. 832. Do you scud on to the printer the same papers that you receive from the town clerk, or do you

make out a fresh list?-I scut half-and-half, I sent a copy to the city hall, and they prepare them them­selves upon my forms.

833. What you send to the printer are the identical papers you get from the town clerk?-Yes, it was left here last December .

.Jir. Webb applied to be allowed to call the Government Printer, as that officer declined to part with the document in question unless he were called and produced it himself.

John Ferres sworn.-Examined by Mr. Webb.

John Ferres. 834. You are the Government Printer ?-I am. 2Sth Auglll!t 1883 835. Do you produce the lists, which were sent to you, of the electoral roll for Ballarat West in the

year 1882 ?-I produce a copy of the roll. 836. Which was sent to you ?-Which was sent to me-[The witness handed in a parcel and

opened the same]. 837. Will you refer to Ballarat West proper ?-Ratepayers, this is the general upon the top. 838. Will you look at No. 1751 ?-Jones? 839. By t!te Committee.-Yes, what is it?-[ The witness separated the paper from the rest.]­

" Jones, Robert, Sturt-street, broker, city of Ballamt, Central ward, office.'' 840. By Mr. Webb.-Is that the manuscript from which the ratepayers' roll was printed ?-This

is it. 841. By Mr. A. G. JJicintyre.-There is no" junior" there, is there ?-No" junior" there. 842. By fffr. Webb (to 11fr. Christy).-Those are the lots you sent up, are they not ?-Yes.

Cross-examined by Mr. A. G. Mcintyre. 843. (To Jlr. Christy.)-By whom were those rolls written-do you know that ?-Yes, some were

written ----844. That particular sheet. [The same was handed to the witness.] ?-It is written by Mr.

Marshall in the city office, a clerk. ~ltr. Ferres withdrew.

David Christy. 845. By Mr. Webb (to Mr. Christy).-That is your signature, I believe, at the foot of the manuscript'! 28th Aug•tst 1883 _yes.

846. That is what you sent to the Government Printer for the copy for the roll ?-Yes. 3,17. Do you know Mr. Robert J ones, senior?-Yes. 848. You recollect his going to England some years ago ?-I do. 849. About how long ago ?-About eleven years ago, I think, just about. 850. And do you recoilect when he returned ?-I am not sure of the month, but I think it was

October. 851. What year ?-Last year. 852. October last year ?-I think there about. 853. By the Committee.-1882 ?-Yes, !tbout. 854. By fffr. Webb.-Do you know Mr. Robert Jones, junior ?-No; I do not know him at all. 855. By the Committee.-Do you know Mr. Were ?-Yes. 856. Is he available ?-I have not seen him the last few weeks; I think he is in Melbourne now. 857. You say you know Robert Jones, junior, also ?-No; I do not know him at all. 858. Do you know whether this boy was at home with his father during the time he was at home ?

-I never heard.

25

859. Could you tell us what date yotl sent this in to the Government Printer ?-Yes. [Thewitness Dav!dChrlsty,

produced and referred to a book. J December the 11th of last year. 860. By .J.lfr. A. G. Mcintyre.-Aud the rolls were printed subsequent to that ?-Yes, that was

continued, 2Stb AugUit 1883.

entered at the time. The witness withdrew.

Jonathan Henry Were sworn.-Examined by Mr. Vale.

861. You are a sharebroker, at present residing in Melbourne ?-At present, yes. J. H. Were, 862. You were resident in Ballarat ?-Yes. 2Stb August 1888

863. Till what time ?-Till about eight weeks ago. 864. Till the end of June last ?-I was there then. 865. And how long before that ?-Two years, I should think. 866. Where do you carry on business ?-Unicorn-passage, an entrance to Lydiard-street and one to

Unicorn-passage. 867. The office had one entrance to Lydiard-street and one to Unicorn-passage, and Unicorn-passage

connects with Sturt-street ?-Yes. 868. You had a partner-what was his name ?-The last partner was a man called J ones-Robert

Jones. 869. Robert Jones ?-Junior. 870. The premises were rented on your joint account?-Yes, after he joined me the rent was paid

by the firm's cheque book. 871. But there was an arrangement that the tenancy was a joint one ?-I had it before he came to

me, and of course when he came to me he had an equal right to it with myself. 872. Were you ever in partnership with Mr. Robert Jones, senior?-Never. 873. Do you know him?-Yes. 8H. Did he ever have any interest in your office ?-None whatever directly, he might have found

the money for his son. I do not know that. 875. But you had no dealings with him ?-No. 876. Robert Jones, senior, had no right in this office ?-None whatever. 877. Do you know the date at which Robert J ones, senior, returned to the colony ?-I cannot tell

exactly, but I think it was about January of this year. 878. When did you cease to occupy those offices ?-About eight or nine weeks ago. 879. Then it was a continuing qualification in you and Mr. Robert Jones at the time of the election

for Ballarat West ?-Yes, he was not my partner at the time of the election. 880. But he still had an interest in the office ?-None whatever, really.

Cross-examined by Mr. A. 0. Mcintyre. 881. Yon say that you had lleen two years in Ballarat prior to June last-do you mean June, 1883,

or June, 1882 ?-1882-about that. 882. How long had you been in the office in Unicorn-passage ?-The whole time. 8tl3. That looks like the roll for 1881, does it not-[ handing a roll to the witness ]-There is a date

on here. Anno Domini 1881 ?-Yes. S8i. Is your name on the roll-I do not think you will find it, but you may as well look-that is in

1881 ?-[The witness examined the roll.] I do not see it. 885. Do you know how it was you were not on the roll ?-No, I do not. I ought to be on one of

the rolls, because I had a house there, but I will not be quite certain about the length of time I was in Ballarat, but I think it was in 1881 I went there. Is that the ratepayers' roll?

886. Yes ?-I think it was very likely I was not, for I do not think I paid my rates in time either of the first two years for my private house.

887. How old is Robert Jones, junior ?-I should think twenty-three or twenty-four. 888. Is he a man of means ?-No, I do not think so. 889. Do you know as a matter of fact that the father did find the money for him to go into business?

-I have every reason to believe he did, or it was found by his agent for him.

Re-examined by Mr. Vale. 890. That rate roll is the rate roll for 1881, it is not the roll we are dealing with-you are on

that roll, are you not, :\Ir. Were-[ handing another roll to the witness J ?-Yes. 891. And turn that over, there is the rate roll for 1882, on the first pages?-Yes. 892. By the Committee.-You said just now that Robert Jones was not your partner at the time of

the election ?-Yes. 893. Was he your partner at the time the valuation was made ?-I do not know what date' that was.

I can tell you the date he ceased to be my partner; he ceased on the 7th of April, 1882. The Chairman.-The valuation was made 27th February. Mr. A. G. Jfcintyl'e.-The roll is finally made up on Deceml1er the 11th. 894. B.IJ the Committee.-Do you know Mr. Vallins ?-By sight. 895. Do you remember his calling to value your place ?-No, I do not think I was present. He

might have seen Mr. Jones, or he might have got it from my landlord. 896. Did y u ever have any conversation with Mr. Jones, senior, in reference to the partnership?­

Yes, since he came out. It did did not terminate very satisfactorily, and he asked for the books to be made up.

897. Then he iuquired into the partnership business ?-He asked me if the books were made up, and I told him the books were lying with Mr. McQnie, the accountant, and that as his son had neglected to make up the hooks properly it would c st about £HO to have them made up, and he asked me to pay half of it.

898. Then actually the father was the partner in that respect ?-I do not see that he ~as. 899. You say you wanted the father to pay half the money ?-I did not. It was the other way ;

he wanted me to pay the money. 2 S.-D. No.-3. F

26

J;!';;!:~~· . . 900. Then, as a matter of fact, Jones, junior, was your partner?-As a matter of fact, Jones, :sth Augnst 18&3 JUntor, was my partner.

901. And not Jones, senior ?-Not Jones, senior. 902. 'Vas the partnership a profit or a loss ?-A loss. 903. Did you claim upon the old man for Jones's share of the loss ?-No. 904. You did not consider he was entitled to pay any share of the loss ?-No. 905. You only dealt with Jones, junior?-Yes. 906. By Mr. A. G. Mcintyre.-But you recognised the authority of the father ?-I recognised it in

no way at all. 907. Why did he ask you then to make up the books ?-Because the son had cleared out somewhere.

I did not know where he was. 908. Were you involved in difficulties at all regarding the business?-Yes. 909. Yourself-I must ask you-I do not like to ask you, but were you insolvent at the time?­

No, not at the time; not while I was his partner. 910. By the Committee.-When did Jones, junior, clear out. You say he went away ?-I do not

know where he went. It was to some station or other. 911. But when ?-Shortly after the partnership was dissolved, and then he would come back for a

day or two or a week. 912. That was before the last election ?-About the time of the last election, to the best of my

recollection. 913. He was coming and going?-Yes. 914. You do not know whether he was away before the election or afterwards ?-I know he went

before the election, but he came back afterwards. 915. Was there a partnership agreement ?-Yes. 916. A distinct agreement ?-A deed. 917. And a dissolution ?-Yes. 918. By Mr. A. G. Mcintyre.-Have you the deed with you ?-I have not. 919. By the Committee.-Was that in the name of Jones, junior?-Yes. 920. Both deeds ?-Yes. 921. Only J ones, junior ?-Only Jones, junior. There is no mention of the father's name in it

at all. Tlte witness withdrew.

William Henry Barnard sworn.-Examined by Mr. Webb.

w. rr. Barnard, 922. You were deputy returning officer for the polling-booth in Dana-street State school, for the llBthAuguansss letters H, I, ,J, K, at the last election for Ballarat \Vest, I believe ?-I was.

923. \Yill you look at the roll. You will see the name No. 1751, Jones, Robert-[lwnding a roll to the witness J ? - Y cs, I do.

924 .. Do you know Mr. Robert Jones, senior ?-I know Mr. Robert Jones. 925. By the Committee.-Senior ?-Yes, I know Mr. Robert Jones, senior. 926. By ~fr. Webb.-About what aged man is he ?-I should think he would be about fifty-three. 927. Did he vote in respect of that number ?-He voted. 928. You took his vote ?-I took his vote. 929. Do you know Mr. Robert Jones, junior ?-No, I do not. I may, but I do not recall him to

mind. 930. The gentleman who voted in respect of that was Mr. Robert Jones, senior-a man about fifty­

three years of age, and whom you know ?-Yes. 931. Did you give him his ballot-paper ?-He demanded a ballot-paper, and I gave it t{) him. 932. And I suppose you put a number upon it ?-I did what was requisite.

Cross-examined by Mr. A. G. Mcintyre. 933. Did you put any questions to him ?-No; I asked him if he demanded a ballot-paper, as I did

ask each one who came to demand a paper. 934. 'Vhat did he say ?-He said, of course, he did demand a ballot-paper, that was all. 935. How did you find his name upon the roll ?-By looking at the roll. I knew Mr. Jones. 936. What did he say. Did he say his name was Robert Jones or William Jones, or what ?-I do

not remember. 937. You recognised him as the Jones referred to in the list ?-I recognised him as Mr. Robert

Jones. I said "Do you demand a ballot-paper.'' 938, Of Sturt-street ?-I cannot say. 939. Was it Robert Jones, Sttut-street, broker.-Yes. 940. And you allowed him to vote under that name and qualification·?-[ Iro answer. J The Committee.-Has that roll been put in ? jl'fr. Tf7ebb.-I only showed the witness the copy I have here. I do not know whether it is the one

that is in. The Clerk stated that no roll had been put in. Mr. TYebb handed in a copy of the roll which was marked and handed to the learned counsel, ~Ir.

A. G. l\Icintyre. 941. By .Mr. A. G. llfcintyre.-You see that mark there, 1751; did this Mr. Robert Jones vote

under that name aud qualification ?-:Mr. Robert Jones voted under that nnme an(l for that number. 9±2. If Mr. Hobert J ones, juninr, had applied, would you have all~Jwcd him to vote if he said his

name was Robert Jones, junior ?-If he demanded a ballot-paper. 9±3. Because you know "junior" is as much part of a man's name as his christian name. If his

father is alive he has no right to call himself-you know that, I suppose ?-Well--9±-L However, this Robert Joncs, Sturt-street, broker, you knew very well at the time he came to

vote, and he came and claimed a ballot-paper, and you gave it to him marked 1701--

27

945. By the Committee-What do mean by saying he" demanded" a ballot-paper. What words W.lf. Barnard,

did he use. If I were a voter and went into you as returning officer : "What is your name-John 2ath"":;,·;~':fis83 Mcintyre. What is your number upon the roll." You may ask those questions if you like; but by demanding a ballot-paper what do you mean; did you dispute the right of this man to have a vote ?-No.

946. What do you mean by saying he "demanded " a ballot-paper ?-I believe it is in the Act that each voter shall demand a ballot-paper.

917. As a matter of fact do any voters demand ballot-papers ?-I do not know; all mine did. 948. By ~Ir. Webb.-I understood the witness to say he asked every voter who came in, "Do you

demand a ballot-paper" ?-Yes. The Gmnmittee.-I want to know why he asked such a question of him. liir. A. G. Mclntyre.-The Act says that after finding his name and number you must give him a

paper. You may ask him questions. 949. By the Committee.-The way you put it involved, to mymind, that there was some dispute

about his right to vote ?-No, there was no dispute. 950. You knew him as Robert Jones ?-Robert Jones I knew. 951. You had no doubt upon your mind that he was the man upon the roll ?-I never thought of

any doubt. I had no doubt at the time. 952. Did you know he had a lad ?-I was not aware of it. 953. How long has this Robert Jones been in Ballarat ?-I suppose twenty years. 954. Were you ever returning officer before ?-No. 955. Never ?-No. 956. You do not know whether he ever voted before at any election ?-No. He had just returned

from England ; he travelled with me in the same train when he returned from England. 957. And notwithstanding that information and knowledge you had of his just returning from

England, you never asked him a question ?-It was some time before that be returned from England. 958. How long ?-I do not rt>member now. 959. Is he a broker ?-I really do not remember. 960. You do not know what he is ?-No, he is a man of means. 961. By Mr. A. (}. Mclntyre.-Here is the post-office directory. Victorian Official Post-office

Directory, 1869, "Robert J ones, a share broker in Ballarat ''-[pointing to an entry]. }Jfr Webb objected. The Witness.-It proves he was a broker in 1869. 962. By the Committee. Do you know he was a broker in 1869 ?-No; I do not think I could say I

know. I am not sure that I knew him at all in 1869. 963. Was he ever a broker in Ballarat ?-I do not know of my own knowledge. A great number

of gentlemen are brokers-or style themselves as brokers-who really do not act. 964. You say he is a man of independent means ?-I believe so; he has the reputation at all events.

If he has not the means he has the reputation, which is next door to it.

Re-examined by .Jfr Webb. 965. At the close of the poll, I suppose you made up the voting-papers into parcels ?-Yes. 966. To whom did you send them ?-I handed them to the returning officer at the town hall. 967. That is Mr. Jones ?-Yes. 968. By Mr. A. G. Mclntyre.-Did any other person present himself to vote in respect of that

qualification at that election ?-No other person. 969. No other Jones ?-No.

The witness with<lrew.

Isaac Jaques Jones sworn.-Examined by Mr. Webb.

970. You were returning officer at the last election for Ballarat West, I believe 7-Yes. 971. Did you receive the voting-papers from Mr. Barnard ?-Yes. 972. For the booth at which he was deputy ?-Yes. 973. What did you do with them ?-Sealed them up, and sent them to town. 974. To the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ?-Yes.

The witness withdrew.

Mr Webb applied for the production of the voting-paper of Robert Jones. Mr. A. G. Mcintyre applied to the Committee for an adjournment for the purpose of calling Messrs.

Robert Jones, senior, and Robert Jones, junior. The Committee-room was cleared.

The Committee deliberated.

After a short time the counsel and parties were again called in, and informed by the Chairman that if Mr. A. G. Meintyre desired to call Messrs. Robert Jones, senior and junior, as evidence in support of his case, the Committee, without passing any opinion as to whether that evidence would be of any use or not, considered that he had a right to.

11fr. Webb asked the Committee to adjourn to enable this witness to be called. The Chairman su.,.gested that Mr. W ebb should proceed with another case, and inquired of Mr. A.

G. Mcintvre when he wo~ld be prepared to produce Mr. Jones, senior. 1lf;. A. G. }IJcintyre statetl that Mr. Jones, senior, was in Melbourne lately, and that he would send

to Ballarat and obtain the witness's presence to-morrow.

Henry Price sworn.-Examined by Mr. Webb. 975. Were you one of the scrutineers at the last Ballarat election ?-1 was. 976. At which booth were you ?-I was at the "C" booth, at the State school, Dam~-street.

ISIIAC J. Joner; 28th August l88a

Henry Price, t8th August 188~

28

Henry Price, 977. Who was the deputy returning officer there ?-Mr. Caselli. 28tn~~":f'1883 978. After the poll was closed were there any voting-papers which were put aside as informal?-

. There were four. 979. Did you object to any of them being put aside ?-I objected to one in particular. 980. What was the nature of the paper?-There were five names struck out-two left standing­

left without any mark on at all with the exception of two like a pencil-mark opposite, as much as to say, "I intended to vote for those."

981. A pencil-mark opposite the names of two?-Yes, a blue pencil-mark. 982. And the five names were struck through the print of the name?-Struck through. 9H3. Did Mr. Caselli say anything about it?-Mr. Caselli said that any marks that were put upon

the ballot-papers would invalidate the papers. 984. By the Committee.-Invalidate the votes ?-Invalidate the votes; he read the Act that there

was no other mark to be put but the mark of striking out the names. 985. By Mr Webb.-Did you make any objection ?-I objected on behalf of Charles Salter to this

ballot-paper. 986. Being put aside?-Being put aside. 987. Did the same thing happen with more than one ballot-paper ?-There was another ballot-paper,

and I think the name, as far as I know-I will not swear exactly to it, but I think in the name Charles Salter, the Charles was touched-! am not exactly sure, but I think it was just the name Charles that was touched. I am not so positive upon that as I am on the other one.

988. Was that set aside also ?-It was. 989. Do you know what was done with those papers?-They were put in a formal envelope. 990. Those papers were put in the" informal" envelope ?-In the informal envelope. 991. Do you know whom they were sent to ?-No, I could not say whom they were sent to, because

as soon as the poll was cleared I wanted to go off.

Cross-examined by .L~:fr. A. G. Mcintyre.

992. Do you recollect the nature of the informality of the other two papers that were put aside?­The other two papers I believe they were--let me see-one I think all the names were scratched out altogether, and the name signed underneath the whole lot, and a name signed underneath.

993. He wanted to vote for himself ?-I do not know whether he wanted to vote for himself; and the other one he left four names on, but this paper we did not take so much notice of; as soon as we saw a paper was informal by leaving one name more on or scratching them all out, we left them, because we did not think them of so much importance.

The witness withdrew.

Charles Gavan Duffy, junior, sworn-Examined by JJ'Ir. Wehb.

Cha.rles o. Duffr, 994. Do you produce the informal ballot papers of booth C ?-The set aside ballot papers-21 tSth ~~;t 1883 parcels here altogether. [The witness produced the same, and handed them to the Chairman. J

The witness withdrew.

Tlte Chairman opened the parcel and examined the envelopes therein contained, and having opened the envelopes referred to in :Mr. Price's evidence, examined the ballot-papers therein contained.

The Chairman.-Thero are four papers here, but there are no parers answering to the description. It is just possible that they may have done in this case as they did in the preceding, where in a small red tape thing inside the other, we found the set aside papers we were in doubt about.

Mr. Webb.-Those are the set aside papers. The Chairman.--These are the set aside. ~~~~~~~~~~~an~~~H~~~~

Price if they are the papers, that would settle it at once. Mr. A. G. JJf.clntyre.-1 have no objection.

Henry Price further examined. IIe!lW'Prlce, 995. By the Cornmittee.-You spoke about certain ballot-papers being marked with a cross. Will

2Sth AugUBt-1883 you tell me if those are they ?-I will tell you if they are put into my hand. I am shortsighted.-[ The same were handed to the witness, who examined tltem.J Those are not the informal ballot-papers that were put aside. -

996. They are not ?-No. The Chairman replaced the papers in the envelope.

Tlu; witness withdrew.

ii'Ir. A. G. JIIcintyre objected to the formal papers being opened unless there was a complete scrutiny.

Henry Richards Caselli sworn.-Examined by Mr. Webb. Relll'y R. casem, 997. Y on were deputy returning officer at the C booth at the last Ballarat election ?-I was. 28th August 1883 998. Do you recollect any papers being rejected as informal ?-I do.

999. Will you describe to the Committee the nature of the inforn1ality ?-I think there were four if I remember rightly ; some were struck across, others were crosses put to them, and I think one ma~ signed his name. I am not sure of the others ; one was partly struck out, and the other two names, as it were, left; but they appear to have changed their mind, and they struck, I believe, a pencil-mark through a part of one, and close up to the other.

1000. Then there were some with two names left not struck out, but with a pencil-mark opposite the names ?-That was so.

29

1001. Now what did you do with those informal papers ?-I placed them in an envelope. The Henry R. caseiU,

instructions are to place the used ballot-papers in one envelope, those which have not been used in the other, 281h~;:tiaaa and the third, I believe, were the informal votes, and they were endorsed on the outside and sealed.

1002. How did you endorse them on the outside ?-So many used, so many not used, and so many informal.

1003. By the Committee.-Is this the paper that you endorsed, on which you put the word "informal "-[handing an envelope to the witness] ?-That is it-four set aside papers.

1004. By Jlfr. JVebb.-Now will you look at these four, and tell us which of them answer the description you have given ?-[The witness took the ballot-papers out of the envelope, and examined them individually.] That is one; that was another; that had four on, and this was the other.

1005. By the Committee.-'Vas no name written on one ?-I thought there was one; I had forgotten, it is so long since, and be~ide in the hurry--

1006. You said there were two names left on, and that the parties evidently changed their minds afterwards, and struck out a portion of them-where is that one ?-This is the one here, "Charles,'' and partly through "Charles'' and "Edward."

1007. You recognise this as the paper ?-Yes. 1008. By Jfr. Webb.-Those are the informal papers, are they ?-Yes. Jfr A. G. -<-wclntyre claimed that the Committee should look at the intention of the voter who

had marked one of the papers with crosses opposite to Mr. J ones's name, and asked that the Committee should take cognizance of the voter's intention, which was to vote for Mr. Jones, it being the method of voting in England and in South Australia to put a cross against the name of the candidate whom the voter desired to vote for.

The Chairman.-\Ve are not in either England or South Australia here. 1009. By the Committee (to the witness).-Are those the papers that you intended to describe in

your evidence ?-Those are the papers. 1010. They do not seem to answer either description . .fl-Ir. Webb.-One, I am instructed, was all struck out except Fincham and Salter, and a mark put

opposite to Fincham and Salter. One of the voting-papers in the hands of the Committee seems to answer the description.

The voting-paper was ltanded to the learned counsel. Mr. Webb.-You can see there are the marks there. However, that is one of the things I must leave

the Committee to decide. Mr. A. G. Mclntyre.-That mark is caused by the folding of the paper. Mr. Webb.-The paper has never been folded. Mr. A. G. Mclntyre.-This is a vote for Fiucham, Jones, Kelly, Salter, and Smith. Mr. Webb.-1 claim that as a vote for Mr. Fincham. Mr. A. G. Mclntyre.-I shall claim it as a vote for Mr. Jones.

'l'he Committee-room was cleared. The Committee deliberated.

After some time the counsel and parties were again called in and informed by the Chairman that the Committee had carefully examined the ballot-paper, and considered that the vote was clearly given for Fincham and Kelly, and should count for Fincham and Kelly accordingly.

Mr. A. G. Jfclntyre.-And there were four names left on the paper. The Chairman.-The Committee are of opinion there were only two names left on . .!fr. A. G. Mclntyre asked that the Committee would examine the second ballot-paper, two having

been set aside for examination. The Clwirman said that the Committee had only set abide one, and asked if Mr. A. G. Mclntyre

made the request. Mr. A. G. Mclntyre said that there was one paper on which Mr. Jones's name was not scratched

out. The Chairman.-There is only one paper, namely, that upon which no name at all is scratched out. Mr. Webb asked the Committee to declare Mr. Fincham duly elected, and was heard to address the

Committee in support of his request, on the ground that the retmning officer's vote decided the election. 1.l'Ir. A. G. Llfcintyre objected that the vote of the returning officer, it had already been decided by

the Committee, would not be considered till the close of the sitting member's case. The Committee·room was cleared.

The Committee deliberated. After a short time the counsel and parties were again called in and informed by the Chairman that

the Committee would hear counsel on each side with reference to the counting of the returning officer's vote. Mr. Webb intimated that, as he had already been heard briefly, he would wait until Mr. A. G.

Mcintyre had spoken, and then, if he considered there was need for him to answer he would ask the Committee to hear him.

Mr. A. G. Jfclntyre was heard to apply that the returning officer's vote might be disallowed. Mr. Webb was heard in reply.

The Committee-room was cleared. The Committee deliberated.

After a short time the counsel and parties were again called in and informed by the Chairman that the Committee considered that the same state of affairs existed now as at the closing of the poll, and, therefore, that the vote of the returning officer must be allowed.

Tlte Clerk read the following resolution-'' That Gcorge Randall Fincham is duly elected a member to serve in this present Parliament for the electoral district of Ballarat ·west.''

Mr. Webb inquired whether the Committee had considered the question of costs. The Cltairrnan-Yes. The Committee do not consider the petition a frivolous one.

Dy .Authority: Joms FERRES, Government Printer, Melbourne.

L:- 2 s.-D.-No. s. G