11–15 july 2005

16
EDUCATION AND TRAINING AT VARIOUS ADMINISTRATION LEVELS: ASSESSING NEEDS, ENSURING QUALITY Annual Conference of the International Association of Schools and Institutes of Administration July 11-15, 2005 Como (Italy) PROGRAMME Hosted by Lombardy Region Institute for Education and Training of Public Administration (I.Re.F.) Milan, Italy

Upload: others

Post on 03-Feb-2022

3 views

Category:

Documents


0 download

TRANSCRIPT

Page 1: 11–15 JULY 2005

EDUCATION AND TRAINING AT VARIOUS ADMINISTRATION LEVELS: ASSESSING NEEDS, ENSURING QUALITY

Annual Conference of the International Association of Schools and Institutes

of Administration

July 11-15, 2005 Como (Italy)

PROGRAMME

Hosted by Lombardy Region Institute for Education and Training of Public

Administration (I.Re.F.) Milan, Italy

Page 2: 11–15 JULY 2005

IASIA ANNUAL CONFERENCE 2005 11–15 JULY 2005

COMO (ITALY)

In collaboration with:

Lombardy Region

Como Municipality

Dipartimento di funzione pubblica – Department for Public Administration

CNR – Consiglio Nazionale delle Ricerche Italian National Research Council

Politecnico di Milano – Polo Regionale di Como

SDA Bocconi School of Management

Como Chamber of Commerce

Farmindustria - Italian pharmaceutical companies association

SEA Milan Airports Commissione Europea

Rappresentanza a Milano

1

Page 3: 11–15 JULY 2005

CONFERENCE THEME

Education and Training at Various Administration Levels: Assessing Needs, Ensuring Quality

General Rapporteur: Michael Brintnall, Executive Director of the American Political Science Association (APSA), Washington, USA

WORKING GROUPS

I. Education and Training Programme: aligning missions and quality President : ElianeCHEMLA (France) Co-project Directors: John GREENWOOD & Lynton ROBINS (UK) II. State-Market Partnerships and Enterprise Management President : R.K. MISHRA (India) Project Director : Paul Collins (UK) III. Public Sector reform: People in the public service President : Pan Suk KIM (South Korea) Co-project Directors: Mohamed CHARIH (Canada) & Dele OLOWU (Netherlands) IV. Local Governance and Development President : E.H. VALSAN (Egypt) Project Director: P.S. REDDY (South Africa) V. Accountability, Culture & Trust President : Margaret GORDON (USA)

Project Director: O.P. DWIVEDI (Canada)

VI. New Tools for Public Financial Management President : Ximena NÚÑEZ VEGA (Chile)

Project Director: Thomas LAUTH (USA) FORUMS 2. permanent Forum for Heads of Schools and Institutes of Administration President: M. Marcel PROULX, Directeur général, Ecole nationale d'Administration publique

(ENAP), Canada Vice-President: M. Mohamed CHARIH, Professeur et Directeur des études, Ecole nationale

d'Administration publique (ENAP), Canada

2

Page 4: 11–15 JULY 2005

GENERAL PROGRAMME

Detailed programmes for each of the Working Groups follow this General Programme Monday, 11 July 2005 02.00 pm – 06.00 pm Registration (Atrio Aula Magna) 10.00 am – 11.30 am Publication Committee 11.30 am – 01.00 pm Working Groups’ Steering Committee (Sala Via Anzani) 03.00 pm – 06.30 pm Board of Management meeting (Sala Via Anzani) Tuesday, 12 July 2005 09.00 am – 06.00 pm Registration (Atrio Aula Magna) 09.00 am - 10.30 am Opening Ceremony (aula Magna) Speeches by: - Prof. Lorenzo CANTONI; President of I.Re.F. - Prof. Turgay ERGUN; President of IASIA - Dr. Michael DUGGETT; Director General of IIAS - Onorevole Roberto FORMIGONI; the President of

Regione Lombardia - Senatore Learco SAPORITO; Sottosegretario del

Ministero della Funzione Pubblica - Stefano BRUNI; Mayor of the city of Como - Roberto NEGRINI; Vice-Rector of the Politecnico di

Milano Como Campus - Guido BERTUCCI; Director DPADM/UNDESA,

DESA - Department of Economic and Social Affairs Division of Public Administration and Development Management, United Nations

10.30 am - 11.00 am Break 11.00 am - 01.00 pm Plenary Session (Aula Magna) Keynote Addresses: - Fabio RUGGE; University of Pavia (Italy) - Michael BRINTNALL; Rapporteur General Cocktail Reception 01.00 pm - 02.00 pm Lunch 02.00 pm - 03.30 pm Workshops on the Conference Theme 1. Development of Senior Administration: Assessing Needs, Ensuring Quality (Aula Magna) Chaired by: Marie Christine MEININGER, ENA (France) 2. Development of Public Administration Education and Degree Process: Assessing Needs, Ensuring Quality (Aula VS7) Chaired by: R.K. MISHRA, Institute of Public Enterprise (India) 03.30 pm – 04.00 pm Break 04.00 pm - 06.00 pm Working groups I. Education and Training Programme: aligning missions and quality (Aula Magna)

III. Public Sector Reform: people in the public service (Aula VS7) IV. Local Governance and Development (Aula VS8) V. Accountability, Culture and Trust (Aula VS9)

3

Page 5: 11–15 JULY 2005

Wednesday, 13 July 2005 08.30 am - 10.30 am Working groups I. Education and Training Programme: aligning missions and quality (Aula Magna) II. State-Market Partnerships and Enterprise Management (Aula VS7) V. Accountability, Culture and Trust (Aula VS9) VI. New Tools for Public Financial Management (Aula VS8) 10.30 am – 11.00 am Break 11.00 am - 01.00 pm Working groups II. State-Market Partnerships and Enterprise Management (Aula Magna) III. Public Sector Reform: people in the public service (Aula VS7) IV. Local Governance and Development (Aula VS9) VI. New Tools for Public Financial Management (Aula VS8) 01.00 pm – 02.00 pm Lunch 02.00 pm - 04.00 pm Meeting for regional and national organizations (Aula Magna) Chaired by: Ioannis CHRISOULAKIS, TEIAH (Greece) 04.00 pm – 04.30 pm Break 04.30pm – 06.30 pm Meeting of the UN/IASIA Task force (Aula magna)

Speech by Alberto Guglielmo, Councillor for Work and Training of Lombardy Region

Cocktail Reception

Thursday, 14 July 2005 08.30 am - 10.30 am Working groups III. Public Sector Reform: people in the public service (Aula VS7) IV. Local Governance and Development (Aula VS8) V. Accountability, Culture and Trust (Aula Magna) 10.30 am – 11.00 am Break 11.00 am - 01.00 pm Joint United Nations/IASIA Initiative (Aula Magna) Chaired by: Guido BERTUCCI, UN, New York (USA) Allan ROSENBAUM, IASIA 01.00 pm – 02.00 pm Lunch 02.00 pm - 04.00 pm Working groups I. Education and Training Programme: aligning missions and quality (Aula VS8) II. State-Market Partnerships and Enterprise Management (Aula VS7) VI. New Tools for Public Financial Management (Aula Magna) 03.30 pm – 04.00 pm Break 04.00 pm – 06.00 pm Permanent Forum for Heads of Schools and Institutes (Aula Magna) Chaired by Marcel PROULX, ENAP (Canada) 06.00 pm – 06.30 pm Cocktail Reception 09.00 pm – 11.00 pm Dinner offered to all participants and accompanying persons at Como Brewery (transfer service included)

4

Page 6: 11–15 JULY 2005

Friday, 15 July 2005 09.00 am – 11.00 am Annual General Assembly - Reports of the working groups (Aula Magna) 11.00 am – 11.30 am Break 11.30 am - 12.30 am Closing Ceremony – General Rapporteur’s conclusions (Aula Magna)

Speech by Avv. Attilio Fontana, President of Lombardy Region Council

01.30 pm – Board of Management 02.00 pm – 06.00 pm LAKE COMO CRUISE for conference participants and accompanying

persons who already registered with the booking form. Meeting point: 2.00 pm Piazza Cavour Imbarcadero Tassel

5

Page 7: 11–15 JULY 2005

PROGRAMME OF WORKING GROUP I

« Education and Training Programme: aligning missions and quality »

I. WORKING GROUP LEADERS: Eliane CHEMLA, Chairperson (France) John GREENWOOD, Co-Project Director (United Kingdom) Lynton ROBINS, Co-Project Director (United Kingdom) II. MEETING PLAN

TUESDAY, 12 JULY 04.00 PM - 06.00 PM

• R. Cameron: South African Public Administration Debate: Academic vs Consulting research? • Hendri Kroukamp : Public sector education and training in South Africa: assessing needs and ensuring

quality • Jerry O. Kuye: “The State of Research and Scholarship in Public Administration: The Interdependence

of Theory and Applied Research Perspectives for the 21st Century” • SINDANE AM: Teaching the practice of Public Administration: Transforming classroom learning into

work related knowledge. • Christopher Williams: Establishing a multi-disciplinary public policy education and research institute

in a university – an Australian case study Listed papers :

• CHENG Ping: From Instruction-oriented Training to Participation-oriented Training • SURIN Alexey V & MOLCHANOVA Olga P: Strategic approach to distance learning in Public

Administration • Shu-Hsiao Tsen: Coping with the trendy of the Knowledge-Based Economic, to build up

Organizational Competitive Strategy with the Intellectual capital • Naci KARKIN: The visuality content analysis of textbooks used in undergraduate study of public

administration departments

WEDNESDAY, 13 JULY 08.30 AM - 10.30 AM

• Dr Dayang Hajah Sainah binti Haji Saim: Development Programmes for Government Officers in Brunei Darussalam

• César Madureira : La formation Comportementale des Cadres Supérieurs de l’Administration Publique Portugaise dans le contexte de réforme administrative

• Anne Riffaud : Évaluer les besoins de formation communs aux médecins de santé publique, un enjeu de qualité pour la formation et l’activité professionnelle

• Abdelkader TAIBI : Les effets de la gestion prévisionnelle de l’encadrement pédagogique- « GPEP » sur les compétences indispensables à la traduction et la transmission du savoir. Quelques réflexions à travers l’expérience de l’université algérienne.

• Nataša M.Tomić: People in the public service: Training and Ethics in Serbia

6

Page 8: 11–15 JULY 2005

Listed papers:

• L du Toit: Comprehensive Evaluation: Grade 10 and 12 Learner Study Baseline 2004 • Li Qi & Qian Gang: Study on optimizing of training for senior civil servant Shanghai Administration

Institute • Mohamed HARAKAT : L’enseignement de la Gouvernance globale dans les pays en voie de

développement : Enjeux scientifiques et apports pratiques : cas du Maroc • Luciano Pilotti & Silvia Rita Sedita: Human Capital Development in a Complex Learning System: the

virtuous interaction between individuals, organizations and communities • Howard R. Balanoff: The National Certified Public Manager (CPM) Program: Impact on Educational

Change in the US and Potential for Use as an International Certification for Public Managers in Other Countries

THURSDAY, 14 JULY 02.00 PM - 04.00 PM

• Donald J. Calista: The Transformational Nature of Web-Based Instructional Mediation: Issues Involved for In-Service Public Administration Students

• Luni Marais: The application and perceived usefulness of web tools in the training of future public service officials

• Hestelle van Heyningen: The use of Service Learning improve the quality of education for job entrants to the Private and Public sector

• Blue Wooldridge: Competency Modelling: The Basis of Quality Training and Management Development needs Assessment

Listed Papers:

• Wu Conghuan: The Investigation of Competence Training Methods of China Enterprise Middle-level Manager

• Mingfa Dong: Comments on the theoretical establishment of the evaluating system of the public official training

• Wang yaodong: Content and form of Chinese administration and supervision authorities' training • M. Ford: Assesment of Training Needs in the Public Sector.

7

Page 9: 11–15 JULY 2005

PROGRAMME OF WORKING GROUP II

« State-Market Partnerships and Enterprise Management » I. WORKING GROUP LEADERS: R.K. MISHRA, Chairperson (India) Paul COLLINS, Project Director (United Kingdom) II. MEETING PLAN

WEDNESDAY, 13 JULY 08.30 AM - 10.30 AM Topic: Training for Waste Management and Sustainable Development

• Juraj Nemec, Luboslava Majlingova, Vladimir Sagat & Marketa Sumpikova: Current problems of

delivery of waste collections services in Slovakia: can training improve the management of the public-private interface?

• Michel Casteigts: La formation des agents publics face aux enjeux du développement durable

11.00 AM - 01.00 PM Topic: Public Private Partnership

• Dr. B. Navin & Dr. P. Geeta: Assessing capacity enhancement needs for public-private partnership in

local government: A case of urban local bodies in Andhra Pradesh, India • Dr.Pradeep K. Saxena: State Market Partnership and Enterprise Management: A Study of Banking

Sector in India THURSDAY, 14 JULY

02.00 PM – 04.00 PM Topic: Training and Public Policy Management

• Dr. Asha Gupta: Role of Consultants in Public Policy Process • R.K.Mishra: Training Requirements for Effective Policy Management in Public Enterprises in India

8

Page 10: 11–15 JULY 2005

PROGRAMME OF WORKING GROUP III

« Public Sector Reform: people in the public service »

I. WORKING GROUP LEADERS: Pan Suk KIM, President (South Korea) Mohamed CHARIH, Co-Project Director (Canada) Dele OLOWU, Co-Project Director (The Netherlands) All sessions of the working group will be chaired by Mr Erwin SCHWELLA (South Africa) and Mr Gelase MUTAHBA (Tanzania) II. MEETING PLAN

TUESDAY, 13 JULY 04.00 PM - 06.00 PM Topic: Understanding, Design and Implementation of Reforms

• Ioana Vasiu & Lucian Vasiu: A Model for Discouraging Corruption in Public Organizations • Shih-Hsien Chang: The Establishment of Non-Departmental Public Body: Comparison between

Japan and Taiwan • Erwin Schwella: Public Leadership: Context, Challenges, and Competencies • Song ShiMing: The Institution Innovation in the Legislation course of "Civil Service Law of the

People's Republic of China • Li Qi: Urbanization and Governmental Revolution • Ulvi Saran & Naim Kapucu: Turkish Public Administration Reforms: Expectations and

Challenges before the European Union Membership WEDNESDAY, 14 JULY 11.00 AM - 01.00 PM Topic: Skills & Training Demanded by Reforms

• Gelase Mutahaba: Installation of Performance Management Systems in Tanzania’s Public Service: The Need to Focus on Individual Performance

• Eugenijus Chlivickas: Human Resource Development in the Public Sector of Central and Eastern Europe

• Robert D. Larsen & Ronald J. Stephenson: Keeping Up with Increasing Demands and Resource Constraints in the Public Service Sector – A Proven Alternative to Traditional Education of Public Sector Employees

• Londoloza L. Luvuno: South African Public Sector Reform and the Re-legitimization of the Historically Disadvantaged Group: Beauty as well as Bread.

• Nweke Eugene N: Tackling Cost of Governance in Public Service: The burden of Monetisation Policy in Nigeria.

• Yogi Penceliah: Integration of Women in Management: The South African Public Service as a Case Study

• Bianor Scelza Cavalcanti: The Equalizer Manager: Strategies in the Public Sector

9

Page 11: 11–15 JULY 2005

02.00 PM – 04.00 PM Topic: Consequences of Reform

• Donald J. Calista & James Melitski: The E-Gov Reform: Negative Consequences of Revisiting the Politics-Administration Dichotomy

• Muhammad Idrus & Johanes Basuki: Civil Service Reform In Indonesia: A Success or Failure Story?

• Natasja Holtzhausen: An overview of local level community participation in a ten year South African democracy: Reason to celebrate?

• Chung-Yuang Jan: The Study of Public Sector Reform and Citizen Participation: The Role of Information and Communication Technology�ICT�in Taiwan

• Valentina Mele: E-Government and Innovation Policy in Italy: The Importance of Being Invisible

10

Page 12: 11–15 JULY 2005

PROGRAMME OF WORKING GROUP IV

« Local Governance and Development » I. WORKING GROUP LEADERS: E.H. VALSAN, Chairperson (Egypt) P.S. REDDY, Project Director (South Africa) II. MEETING PLAN: TUESDAY, 12 JULY 04.00PM - 06.00PM Topic : Local Government Democratisation, Decentralisation and Development

• Bekker, K : Five Pillars of Local Democracy in Developing Countries • ELICIN – ARIKAN Yeserin : Local Politics and Performance : Critical Analysis of Urban Governance in

Turkey : A Case – Study of Sisli District Municipality in Istanbul • Goymen, K : Metropolitan Restructuring in Istanbul : Attempts to Create an Integrated City • Game, C : The Miscarriage of Elected English Assemblies : The Future of Democratic Decentralisation

after the North East Shouted No • MA Baocheng,: Macro Perspective on China’s Township Government Reform

WEDNESDAY, 13 JULY 11.00AM – 01.00PM Topic : Government Democratisation, Decentralisation and Development

• Andrews, C W and De Vries, M : High Expectations, Varying Outcomes : Decentralisation and Participation in Brazil, Japan, Russia and Sweden

• Rodriguez - Acosta, C A and Rosenbaum, A : Local Government and the Governance of Metropolitan Areas in Latin America

• de Visser, J : Developmental Local Government - A Case Study of South Africa • Reddy, P S: Metropolitan Unicity Development in South Africa and Canada : A Tale of Three Cities • du Plessis, L M : Creating “New” Municipal Organisations in South Africa : Are we Meeting the Service

Delivery Challenges ? • Geldenhuys, A J : Actions for Excellence in Intergovernmental Relations

Paper Listed :

• Yan – yi Chang and Chun – yuan Wang : The Study of Local Governance and Public Private Partnership : The Case in Taiwan Local Government

11

Page 13: 11–15 JULY 2005

THURSDAY, 14 JULY 08.30PM -10.30PM Topic : Ethics and Integrity/Local Economic Development

• Kroukamp, K : Corruption at the Local Government Level in South Africa : the Evils of all Evils • Hsing – Ti Cheng : Globalisation and Urban Governance In Taiwan – Strategies for Urban Development

and the Roles of Local Government in a Globalised Society;Agora, • Di Falco Germana, Brusoni Manuela, Crugnola Paolo, Vecchi Veronica: PIT : A Systemic Action of

Skills Empowerment for Fostering Local Development • Honmode, J : Education and Training at Various Administrative Levels During Local Governance Under

the “Panchayati Raj System in India” • Sharma, V : Enhancing Efficiency Levels of Local Administration by Raising the Level of Commitment

and Credibility Through the Usage of Information Technology.

12

Page 14: 11–15 JULY 2005

PROGRAMME OF WORKING GROUP V

« Accountability, Culture and Trust »

I. WORKING GROUP LEADERS: Margaret GORDON, Chairperson (United States) O.P. DWIVEDI, Project Director (Canada) II. MEETING PLAN

TUESDAY, 12 JULY 04:00 PM – 06:00 PM Discussant: Frank THOMPSON

• Charles Garofalo: Trust, Moral Agency, and Governance • Maija Hyle: Endogenous Promotion of Good Governance • Dr. Judy Johnston: Public Service, Accountability and Trust at Risk on the Grand Canal? • Hope O’Brien: Strategic Partnerships: The Creation of the National AIDS Response Plan in

Mozambique • Elizabeth Loy: Behind the Lines: The Politics and Cultural Considerations of Global HIV/AIDS

Funding WEDNESDAY, 13 JULY

08:30 AM – 10:30 AM

Discussant: Frank THOMPSON

• ZhuLan: On the historical roots of the Chinese traditional “official standard” idea • Dr. Dolly Mathew & Dr. E Vayunandan: Rebuilding Public Services Accountability and Trust;

Bhagidari in India: Renewing Administrative Culture through Partnership • Jenhei Chen: Trust and Citizens Perceptions toward Public Institutions in Taiwan • Edward T. Jennings, Jr.: Results-Based Governance and Social Equity • Godwin Onu: Building a culture of trust and accountability in governance process through public

service reforms: The Nigerian experience

THURSDAY, 14 JULY

08:30 PM – 10:30 PM

• Jacques Bourgault : L’obligation de rendre compte, la culture et la confiance des citoyens au Canada, en France et en Suède : les rapports de performance présentés au Parlement

• Sindane AM: Trends of a decade in re-building a responsible administrative culture in South Africa: An accountability and ethical consideration.

• Richard Marceau : Les standards et la formation en évaluation de politiques publiques : pour un équilibre entre une conception normée du métier et une approche innovante à la formation

• Michael E.Milakovich: Quality awards as models for improving public administration education and training

13

Page 15: 11–15 JULY 2005

PROGRAMME OF WORKING GROUP VI

« New Tools for Public Financial Management »

I. WORKING GROUP LEADERS: Ximena NÚÑEZ VEGA, Chairperson (Chile) Thomas LAUTH, Project Director (United States) II. MEETING PLAN

WEDNESDAY, 13 JULY 08.30 AM - 10.30 AM

• Kurt Thurmaier & Yu-Che Chen: Financing E-Government Business Transactions: Empirical Estimates of Willingness to Pay.

• Chunhong Cai: E-Government and Chinese Budget Reform • Yang Haiyang: E-Government and Legislation on Open Government Information • Lorenzo Cantoni & Martin J. Eppler: e-Government Education and Training Needed to Ensure

Information Quality

11.00 AM – 01.00 PM

• Yilin Hou: Budgeting to Govern: a Public Budgeting Framework For Improving Governing Capacity in Poor and Transitional Countries

• R.K.Mishra: Financial Management in Public Enterprises: Some Issues and Concerns • David Fourie: The Utilisation of Budgetary Systems to Promote Accountability and Service Delivery:

A south African Experience • Jie XU: Ways to Keep Financial Stability for China’s Central Bank

THURSDAY, 14 JULY 02.00 PM – 04.00 PM

• Juraj Nemec & Peter Bercik & Leos Vitek: Local public finance, decentralisation and fiscal decentralisation in Slovakia

• Claude Beauregard & Denis Proulx : Assurer la qualité de la gestion des approvisionnements par des contrôles différenciés : cas des municipalités québécoises

• Pradeep K.Saxena: New Strategies and Tools of Public Financial Management: Financing the Infrastructure Sector in India

14

Page 16: 11–15 JULY 2005

ACCOMPANYING PERSONS' PROGRAMME Only the registered accompanying persons who have paid their registration fees will be able to participate in this programme, as well as in the social programme proposed to participants. Tuesday, July 12th 2005: DISCOVERING COMO (half day walking) Wednesday, July 13th 2005: THE SILK ROUTE TOUR (half day tour) Thursday, July 14th 2005: PICASSO. THE SEDUCTION OF CLASSIC (Picasso. La seduzione del classico) This programme also covers participation at the Cocktail reception and Conference dinner. PRACTICAL INFORMATION Conference venue All sessions will take place at the Politecnico di Como (Via Castelnuovo, 7 – 22100 Como). For further information please visit: http://www.como.polimi.it Working Languages The official languages of the Conference are English and French. Arrangements are being made to provide some simultaneous interpretation in English and French in one of the conference rooms. Contact persons

1. Organising Committee: ADRIA CONGREX: Via Alessandro Tiarini, 22; 40129 Bologna Tel. +39.051.7457070; Fax +39.051.7457071; [email protected] www.adriacongrex.it/iasia2005

2. IASIA Secretariat: Juan Cabrera-Clerget, Executive Secretary, 1 rue Defacqz, B-1000

Brussels (tel: 32/2-536.08.89, Fax: 32/2-5537.97.02, e-mail: [email protected], web site: http://www.iiasiisa.be)

3. I.Re.F. Lombardy Region Institute for Education and Training of Public Administration, Via

Copernico, 38; 20125 Milano Tel +39.02.67.507.430; or +39.02.67.507.413; fax +39.02.66.711.701, e mail: [email protected] http://www.irefonline.it/

Documents and Badges: Each participant will receive a folder of documents including: the participants list, the papers list and a badge on which the participant’s name is indicated. Badges should be worn at all times. Only those participants and accompanying persons wearing their badge may participate in meetings and receptions. Individual Papers: The list of individual papers will be included in the folder of documents Working Method: Presentation of individual papers. Among the papers accepted, the group directors of sub-topics have selected a limited number of papers to be presented during the sessions. Authors of papers which have not been selected for presentation are kindly invited to participate in the discussions. Excursions - accompanying persons’ programme - post-Conference tours - flight confirmation - transfers: the Local Secretariat ‘Adria Congrex’ will ensure the above mentioned services throughout the duration of the Conference. Currency : Being part of the Euro zone, Italy shares the same currency as its direct European neighbours: the Euro. As of June 2005, 1 EUR=1.22 US Dollars. Excursion for the participants (15 July 2005): An excursion, a cruise on Lake Como and a visit at Villa Carlotta, will be offered to the participants and accompanying persons, who already registered whit the booking form on Friday, 15 July 2005, in the afternoon.

15