1 city of pontiac planning commission meeting june 3
TRANSCRIPT
1 CITY OF PONTIAC
2 PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING
3 JUNE 3, 2015
4 6:30 p.m.
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6 Meeting before The Pontiac
7 Planning Commission at 47450 Woodward Avenue, Pontiac,
8 Michigan, on Wednesday, June 3, 2015.
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11 PRESENT FROM THE CITY:
12 C. James Sabo, Planner Gordon Bowdell, Associate Planner
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14 PRESENT FROM THE BOARD
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Dayne Thomas - Chairperson Ashley Fegley - Vice Chairperson Mona Parlove Lucy Payne Mayor Deirdre Waterman Hazel Cadd Christopher Northcross
20 OTHERS PRESENT:
21 Jesus Saucedo
22 Ryan and Gary Ignasiak Juston Yono
23 Jeffrey J. Huhta
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25 REPORTED BY: Mona Storm, CSR# 4460
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INDEX
ACTION
Call to Order
Roll Call
Communications
Minutes For Review (5-6-15)
Approved
Public Hearings and Site Plan Reviews
PF-15-31
Motion approved
PF-15-33
Motion carries
PF-14-34
Motion carries
PF-15-36
Motion carries
PF-15-37
Motion carries
New Business
Ordinance Amendments Approved
Unfinished Business
Other Items
Public Comments
Adjournment
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1 Pontiac, Michigan
2 Wednesday, June 3, 2015
3 6:36p.m.
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THE CHAIRPERSON: So welcome to this
evening's Pontiac Planning Commission Meeting for
Wednesday, June 3, 2015. We don't have a lot of items
on the agenda but we have five, two of which are public
hearings, which, on average, take little bit longer.
Procedurally, we'll try to move through as
quickly as possible. But, to public speakers, if there
are any that are coming, and a friendly reminder to my
fellow commissioners and to myself to try to capsulize
our -- our comments and questions, think through before
we get it so that we're in the interest of our
petitioners moving through as quickly and --
procedurally as quickly as possible.
So just quickly, to my far left I'll
introduce Commissioner Christopher Northcross. To my
immediate left is City Planner James Sabo. My far
right is Associate Planner Gordon Bowdell. Then, next
to him, is Commissioner Mona Parlove and then
Commissioner Lucy Payne and then I'm Chairman
Dayne Thomas.
Mr. Sabo, may we have roll call, please.
MR. SABO: Commissioner Parlove?
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MS. PARLOVE: Here.
MR. SABO: Commissioner Payne?
MS. PAYNE: Here, present.
MR. SABO: Mayor Waterman. Not here yet.
Commissioner Northcross?
MR. NORTHCROSS: Present.
MR. SABO: Commissioner Fegley will be here
shortly.
Commissioner Cadd?
Chair Thomas?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Present.
MR. SABO: We have a quorum.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. Do we
have any communications?
MR. SABO: I do not.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Looking left and right, no
questions. So that moves us to Minutes for review.
For those of you who have had a chance to
look at this, we --this is a full transcript so it's
38 pages. And so, if you have -- I'm going to go to
each one of you for any comments or clarification.
it is a transcript, which means that it's basically
word-for-word. It is certified by our recorder. So
I haven't, personally, had a chance to review it in
detail. Frankly, it put my printer into overload so
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But
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but, anyhow, Commissioner Northcross, any comments with
regard to the minutes?
MR. NORTHCROSS: Yes, it's word-for-word. I
thought it captured our words exactly as said. In
terms of its content, I don't have any objections,
except for it seems rather long. I'm not sure we
require a word-for-word item for -- a word-for-word
recount of what we said for our minutes. Is there any
benefit of just capturing the significant items that
we -- we say --
MR. SABO: Yeah, we're--
MR. NORTHCROSS: -- the motions
MR. SABO: Commissioner Northcross.
MR. NORTHCROSS: -- and the actual votes?
MR. SABO: Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yeah?
MR. SABO: Yeah. We're working on that. A
transcript is not required under State statute.
Ms. Storm is trying to locate a minute-taker
for us so in the interim, we have to have something.
So Ms. Storm has done a great job.
Thank you very much.
THE CHAIRPERSON: That will work.
MR. NORTHCROSS: So, I mean, it captured the
meeting word-for-word and it was fantastic to read.
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THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR. NORTHCROSS: So -- in terms of its
content, I have no objections against what was in
there.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR. NORTHCROSS: Just a question of do we
need that much.
THE CHAIRPERSON: No, that's a fair question,
a fair question.
Commissioner Parlove, please.
MS. PARLOVE: No comments.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Commissioner Payne?
MS. PAYNE: No comments.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. And to me, once
again, I'm taking it on that it's a full transcript,
basically almost word-for-word. It is what we said
what we said, so I approve it as is.
Okay. That takes care of the minutes.
That's one of the faster review of the minutes that
we've had.
MR. SABO: We need a motion.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I mean, that's pretty good.
MR. SABO: We need a motion.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh. I'm sorry.
have a motion to approve.
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May we
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MR. NORTHCROSS: So move.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Second?
MS. PAYNE: Second.
THE CHAIRPERSON: A second. Any comments
before we take roll call?
Mr. Sabo.
MR. SABO: Mr. Northcross?
MR. NORTHCROSS: Yes.
MR. SABO: Ms. Parlove?
MS. PARLOVE: Yes.
MR. SABO: Ms. Payne?
MS. PAYNE: Yes.
MR. SABO: Mr. Chair?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
Motion carries unanimous.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. First up
on the public hearings on our agenda is Item P
PF-15-31. It is a lot split request at 824 Saint
Claire Street.
And Mr. Bowdell.
Mr. Bowdell will represent.
MR. BOWDELL: Thank you. It's PF-15-31.
It's a lot split request for 824 Saint Claire Street.
Zoning is M-2, General Industrial District. This is
the site here. This is Saint Claire Street. This is
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Montcalm. The lot split request by RACER property
to -- and the purpose is to split it to -- for the sale
to the adjacent property owner. This is the existing
lot and this is zoomed in. I'll zoom out in a second.
And, essentially, the lots will become like this. So
this is existing and that is what is proposed. Zoning
is M-2. It's industrial property and a tire repair
shop and the proposed land use for the combination
would be just for the tire repair shop.
The setbacks all -- all comply. In
accordance with the City of Pontiac subdivision
ordinances, a lot split must meet the minimum. Zoning
ordinance standards, in this case, the requirements for
a site plan review are not applicable but all the bulk
area and parking requirements must be met. The
proposed lots conform to all those requirements and, as
I stated, the proposal is for the request for a RACER
property, to split a portion of their lot and convey it
to the adjacent property owner.
Based on that, the recommendation is to
approve both lot splits for the RACER property, subject
to providing and recording all necessary public
utilities and public easements.
That's my report and I believe the adjacent
property owner is here.
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MR. SAUCEDO: No, he couldn't make it.
Mr. Humerez, the purchaser?
MR. BOWDELL: Yes.
MR. SAUCEDO: No, no.
MR. BOWDELL: Okay. I can answer any
questions. Pretty straightforward.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So just a question.
You're not speaking on behalf of the Petitioner or the
owner or are you planning to field questions?
MR. SAUCEDO: Well, if there was any
question, yeah, that's what I'm here for.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Would you mind going to the
podium, then, and giving us your name and your address
and any questions that you can't answer, then perhaps
Mr. Bowdell can fill in for us.
Your name and address, please.
MR. SAUCEDO: Yeah, my name is Jesus Saucedo.
My address is 27665 Doreen Street, Farmington Hills.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. And
anything that you'd like to add to or modify or any
questions with regard to Mr. Bowdell's presentation?
MR. SAUCEDO: Well, Mr. Humerez's purpose of
buying those four lots is to tent them in and store the
vehicles because some vehicles have been stolen off of
his open lot and that's what he's trying to avoid.
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THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Okay.
MR. SAUCEDO: He wants to lock them in there
on the people that -- when they don't finish the
vehicles on the repairs overnight. So that -- that's
his main thing.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Fair enough. Fair
enough. In that regard, then, I'm going to go to my
fellow Commissioners for their comments and questions.
I'd also like to welcome in Vice-Chair
Commissioner Fegley and Commissioner Hazel Cadd. But
to Mr. Christopher -- Commissioner Northcross we shall
go.
MR. NORTHCROSS: I don't have any questions
at this time.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR. NORTHCROSS: No questions.
THE CHAIRPERSON: All right.
Commissioner Cadd, have you settled in enough to kind
of jump
right.
please.
MS. CADD: I'll pass right now, if that's all
Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: To Commissioner Parlove,
MS. PARLOVE: No questions.
THE CHAIRPERSON: To Commissioner Payne,
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please.
MS. PAYNE: No questions.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Fegley.
MS. FEGLEY: I have no questions.
THE CHAIRPERSON: You know, that's my boyhood
neighborhood and that's where I moved back into. It 1 s
not exactly in my backyard but it's only kind of a
couple football passes away so -- I know the business,
he seems to do a pretty good job there and, in my mind,
I'm pretty much amenable to what he's trying to get
done. So that's my question.
Commissioner Cadd -- or anything further that
you'd like to add?
MS. CADD: I just wanted to say welcome and
thank you and it's good to see the improvement. I am a
regular customer down there and I think a lot, highly
of the business. That's all I have to say.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. All right. Okay.
May we have a motion?
MS. PARLOVE: I make motion to approve the
proposed lot split request, PF-15-31 for RACER
properties, LLC, subject to the following condition:
To provide and record all necessary public utility and
public access easements.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
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MS. FEGLEY: Second.
THE CHAIRPERSON: We have a move and a
second. Any further comments or question before we go
to roll call?
Okay. To roll call, please.
MR. BOWDELL: Commissioner Parlove?
MS. PARLOVE: Approved.
MR. BOWDELL: Commissioner Fegley?
MS. FEGLEY: Yes.
MR. BOWDELL: Commissioner Payne?
MS. PAYNE: Yes.
MR. BOWDELL: Commissioner Northcross?
MR. NORTHCROSS: Yes.
MR. BOWDELL: Commissioner Cadd?
MS. CADD: Yes.
MR. BOWDELL: Chair Thomas?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR. BOWDELL: Motion carries.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Congratulations.
MR. SAUCEDO: Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Good luck. Let us know how
we can help.
work.
MR. SAUCEDO: Okay.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Tell him keep up the good
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MR. SAUCEDO: Okay.
MR. BOWDELL: I'll talk to you tomorrow.
MR. SAUCEDO: Okay. Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yep.
MR. SAUCEDO: Okay.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, again.
MR. SAUCEDO: Okay. Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Next item is PF-15-33.
This is a public hearing. It's a site plan
review/special exception permit and -- at
1525 Baldwin Avenue.
And Mr. Bowdell will present again.
MR. BOWDELL: Thank you. PF-15-33 Site Plan
Review and Special Exception Permit for drive-through
facility at 1525 Baldwin Avenue. The Zoning is C-1,
Local Business District.
This is the site here. It's a Dairy Queen.
West Chicago Avenue and West New York Avenue here.
Site plan review to construct a new 2,211 square foot
Dairy Queen, a parking area and landscape area. And
the site -- and the special exception permit is to,
essentially, continue that drive-through element of the
establishment.
This is the existing site. This is the
building here. They do have an outbuilding
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currently -- or a different building. This is Baldwin.
This is the proposed site plan, new
construction here, dumpster enclosure back here.
These are elevations. This is off of Baldwin
and this is the south elevation, facing West New York.
Zoning is C-1, Local Business District. It's
a permitted use except for that drive-through element.
A Dairy Queen and it's going to be a Dairy Queen as
well.
Proposed structures, 2,211 square foot
building, exterior is a brick veneer EFIS, metal
panels, new signage. They're doing a 28-space parking
lot and new landscaping and dumpster enclosure.
The placement and area of the building
conform to all setback requirements and height
requirements. It's a one-story building, brick veneer
EFIS, metal panels, eyebrow canopy and fabric awning.
Proposed EFIS does exceed the ten percent
maximum area for a building facade. He is,
essentially, asking for a modification from this
request. The Planning Department does believe that a
modification should be granted based on the design of
the building.
The design complies with the transparency
requirements, as it's on West New York. Again, this is
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off of Baldwin on the top and West New York is on the
bottom.
All signage must be approved through an
actual sign permit. There are some nonconformities as
relates to signs. I think there are two existing pole
signs on the property, only one is allowed. And it --
currently they have a new one proposed in the
right-of-way, which must be removed from that
right-of-way. They also exceed the maximum area and
height requirements.
A tree survey is not required. Exterior
lighting is not proposed. Landscaping and I
apologize. The applicant did submit a revised
landscape plan and that's not included in your
report --or my report but it's included in this
PowerPoint.
There are still some nonconformities related
to landscaping, specifically a parking lot which abuts
the right-of-way, where there -- the actual buffer
width and number of trees, the applicant is seeking to
modify it and propose some shrubs instead of those
trees; that's in the parking lot abutting the
right-of-way.
Also, street frontage landscaping, which is
in the actual right-of-way, they don't have any trees
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proposed along Baldwin or West Chicago. There are two
existing trees on West New York. They're required
three at West Chicago, three on West New York and five
on Baldwin.
Also, parking lot which abuts the residential
zonlng district to the west, they're required a
ten-foot buffer, 25 trees with at least 13 to be
Evergreen. They have a 30-foot buffer and 50
arborvitaes proposed.
These are the trees. The top is the actual
trees they are proposing to the north of the property.
These two are shrubs that they're proposing as a hedge
around the parking lot, abutting the right-of-way. And
there are 50 arborvitaes proposed in that three-foot
buffer adjacent to the residential zoning district.
They've also proposed several perennial
flowers on the property. Again, this is where the
seven trees are proposed on the north. The 50
arborvitaes are proposed in this area here and this is
all the shrubs that are acting as a hedge surrounding
the entire property.
Parking, they're required 28 spaces, they
have 28 proposed. They are required to have double
striping as well as bicycle parking, they must conform
with that requirement.
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Special exception for drive-through
facilities. Drive-through facilities must be located
on an A or B street, which meets that standard.
Drive-throughs must be built as part of the primary
structure, which it is and it meets that standard.
Building location and orientation. The
principal building to which the drive-through uses,
accessories should be located at or near setback lines.
Any building with a drive-through use shall have a
prominent pedestrian entrance facing the principal
street upon which it has frontage; it meets that
standard. Although the building is set back from the
property line, the Applicant has provided a pedestrian
walkway from the sidewalk to the entrance of the
building.
The drive through setback. Physical elements
of the drive-through use that are visible from the
exterior; canopies, ordering stations, must be set back
a minimum of ten feet from any street-facing building
wall of the primary structure, it may meet that
standard.
No ordering station or canopy is identified
on the site plan. And, should the applicant seek to
install these elements, they must ensure compliance
with this standard.
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E, the number of spaces for this use -- and
these are stacking spaces for that drive-through -- is
eight, it meets that standard.
F is not applicable.
G, stacking space dimension. Each stacking
space is 9 by 18, meets that standard.
The location of that stacking lane for that
drive-through shall not be located between the building
and a street and may not be located in a required front
yard, it does not meet that standard. The property
actually abuts three streets so it would be near
impossible to comply with that. The applicant would
have to obtain a variance, should the Planning
Commission approve the site plan to not meet that
standard.
I, Headlight glare. The landscaping that is
proposed now should help with headlight glare for the
drive-through from adjacent residential properties and
the right-of-way. So it may meet that standard now
with that updated landscape plan.
An escape lane for the drive-through is
proposed. These -- this is the standards for approval,
a discretionary approval for the Planning Commission,
that they must determine that the proposed use will be
harmonious with and in accordance with the general
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principals and objectives of the comprehensive master
plan, meets that standard. It was a Dairy Queen
before, it's going to be a Dairy Queen and the master
plan identifies it as neighborhood commercial.
To be designed, constructed, operated and
maintained so as to be harmonious and appropriate in
appearance with the existing or intended character of
the general the vicinity, it meets that standard.
The building design and orientation is to be
constructed in a way that is appropriate in appearance.
3. Not change essential character of the
area, meets that standard. As I stated, it is a Dairy
Queen currently and they're going to continue that use.
4, not be hazardous or disturbing to existing
or future uses in the same general vicinity, meets that
standard.
5, be adequately serve -- be served
adequately by essential public facilities and services,
meets the standard.
6, not involved uses, activities, processes
and materials or equipment or conditions of operation
that will be detrimental to any person, property or
general welfare, it may meet the standard at the
Planning Commission's discretion for that landscape
plan, if they choose to modify it. There is a concern
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with headlight glare for any drive-through facility.
7, maintain all proposed structures,
equipment or materials in a readily accessible manner
for police and fire protection, it meets that standard.
A planning analysis, as I stated, they're
building a 2,211 square foot building. They are
requesting a modification for the EFIS to exceed that
ten percent -- maximum ten percent requirement. The
Applicant's also seeking that special exception permit
for that drive-through facility.
The proposed building complies with all the
area placement and bulk requirements for that C-1 local
business district. All proposed signs must meet -- or
must be submitted and reviewed under a sign permit.
There are some nonconformities but those can be
resolved administratively when they submit their
application.
The revised site -- landscape plan still does
not conform to the landscape regulations. Should the
Planning Commission feel that the Applicant provided an
appropriate landscape plan, they may modify it to what
is proposed but they should consider headlight glare in
adjacent residential properties.
The proposed parking lot complies with the
numeral parking space requirement. They must have
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double striping and bicycle parking on site as well,
though.
Drive-through facilities do restrict the
stacking lanes between the building and the street. A
dimensional must be obtained. The proposed use appears
to be compliant with the discretionary approval
standards, as the use and business was operating prior.
The use is not changing, the only change is the new
construction and placement of the building.
Based on that, there is two recommendations,
there -- the first recommendation is to approve with
compliance with everything listed in the report,
including compliance with landscaping, based on our
zoning ordinance.
The second recommendation is to approve with
modification of the landscaping, to allow the
applicant -- to allow what the Applicant's proposed as
the revised landscape plan.
I can answer any questions you have and the
applicant is here as well.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you very much.
And I'd like to welcome the Honorable Mayor Waterman.
Good evening.
MAYOR WATERMAN: Good evening.
THE CHAIRPERSON: And will the Petitioner
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please come forward and please state your name and
address for the record, please.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Hello. Ryan Ignasiak,
3743 Rutherford Court, Waterford.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Good evening, Ryan. How
are you?
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Good evening.
THE CHAIRPERSON: You heard Mr. Bowdell's
presentation of your -- of your case?
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Yes, sir.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Anything you'd like to add
or modify or change?
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: No, not at this time.
Everything seems to be pretty much in order. If it
matters, at this time, about the signage, we do have
two pole signs at this time. We are planning on
removing one of them on the north end. The south
existing one sits in a spot where it shouldn't hinder
traffic flow or parking and we'd like to keep that up
with our LED reader board and signage on there as well.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. With that being
said, this is a public hearing but we'll go to my
fellow commissioners first. And then we'll follow up
with the public hearing. We'll collect all the
questions and we'll go from there.
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So to Commissioner Northcross, please.
MR. NORTHCROSS: Good afternoon. And thank
you for coming before this Planning Commission with
your plans and I'm looking over the plans and it looks
like it's going to be a major, major expansion of the
current facility that's there.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Correct.
MR. NORTHCROSS: How many seats will you have
inside of this facility?
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: We're proposing just a
walk-in vestibule.
MR. NORTHCROSS: Just a walk-in?
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: We will have room for
possibly a couple stools maybe along the window, facing
Baldwin with a view. There may be potential, maybe, in
the winter months for a table or two, just to help, you
know, those that can't sit outside to eat. But we will
have a picnic table-- I'd say maybe four or five right
out front, on the south side of the building where our
patio area will be.
MR. NORTHCROSS: Okay. That's very nice. I
guess the one concern, along with headlights -- and
this is not something that, I guess, is currently part
of the standards but I would suggest that we start to
review that for some of the drive-in facilities -- is
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that of sound or noise that would come from the
exchange of ordering and confirming the order as
customers drive through.
I'm not sure exactly where that transaction
will happen, you know, the actual placement of the loud
speaker. But I would see, along with headlights,
anything that can help to dampen light would also help
to somewhat dampen sound. Although I would see
headlights as being the primary thing to focus on. And
that would be my only -- that would be my only concern
about this the plans that you presented.
I think excellent plans with just the issues
of the landscaping. Personally, I'd like to see the
full landscaping plan there. Other than that, I think
you have some excellent plans.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Thank you.
MR. NORTHCROSS: And glad to see that you're
expanding here in Pontiac.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Yes. No, we're excited.
We've been here 40 years.
questions.
MR. NORTHCROSS: Yeah.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: And no rush to leave.
MR. NORTHCROSS: Great. Great. That ends my
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you.
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Commissioner Cadd, please.
MS. CADD: Hi and welcome. I'm a regular
customer here as well. It's good to see it expanding.
So it's going to-- the fence side is going to be
towards Baldwin?
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Yes, ma'am.
MS. CADO: Okay. I think that's nice. I
like how you have the picnic area.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Thank you.
MS. CADO: And I think that's a great
opportunity. I -- I like the shrubs that you're
suggesting instead.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Thank you.
MS. CADO: I think that would be nice to have
it set up with the laundry mat on the one side. And I
know the one house and the people that live in that
house on that side and that sits back away from where
your order is. Is that going to stay the same, where
we normally place our orders?
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: No, ma'am. Right now
that's on the west side.
MS. CADO: Okay.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: And the direction of our
voices would head due west. Now we're proposing more
on the north, possibly northeast, corner of the
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building.
MS. CADD: So the Chicago side?
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: So there would be no
residential people whatsoever affected by it.
MS. CADD: Okay.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: And I'm fairly close with
a lot of my neighbors directly behind. And over the
years we've never had any complaints. I'm hoping the
reason they're not here tonight is because no one has
any objections. So that's a good thing.
MS. CADD: I think, with that expansion,
you're going to really multiply your business and
that's a good thing --
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: It's time to grow.
MS. CADD: -- with the City. And I have no
other questions.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: We have a hard time
offering a lot of the products available to us because
of the size of our building. I have no room for cake
sales and other materials they're bringing in.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Very good.
To Mayor Waterman, please.
MAYOR WATERMAN: Thank you. I'm interested
in how long you had been in this facility, at this
space.
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MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: It will be 40 years in
2016.
MAYOR WATERMAN: All right. And when you
start, what is the expected time of completion? And I
know that the summer months are coming on. So are you
going to be continuing to service patrons --
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Yes. Our goal
MAYOR WATERMAN: during this time?
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: -- is to put up a
temporary fence, probably right in the center of the
property, keep the existing store up and running
through the fall and winter while we build on the north
side of the building -- or the lot.
MAYOR WATERMAN: All right.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: And if all things go
right, hopefully break ground in September, if we
could, all of our ducks in the row, we'd like to get
through the busy months of the summer and then proceed
in the fall.
MAYOR WATERMAN: Okay. All right. And
Commissioner Northcross did talk about the noise
element with the setback meeting the zoning
requirements. That's why that number of feet was
required, in order to prevent any kind of disturbance
between a residential abutment there.
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MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Okay.
MAYOR WATERMAN: So I think that completes.
I like the renderings, yes.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
To Commissioner Parlove, please.
MS. PARLOVE: Ryan, welcome.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Thank you.
MS. PARLOVE: And congratulations on your
long success with the City.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Appreciate it.
MS. PARLOVE: A couple of questions. First
of all, the landscape that's proposed, I am in full
support of it. I think the bushes that you suggested
along the street, the fact that you've got some yellow
perennials on site will help keep the area cheerful and
inviting. But I'm assuming that this plan is something
that is required by Dairy Queen as part of the
franchise. Is this their package that they ask you to
adhere to or is this your own undertaking?
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: A little bit of both.
You know, we've used a lot of their recommendations, as
far as the exterior look of the building, you know,
blueprints, models of what they're introducing or
bringing out nowadays for remodels or new stores.
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You know, our exterior is very close to what
they're offering. You know, we made a few adjustments
with, you know, more brick on the bottom, let's say,
because of our northern weather as opposed to, you
know, the materials they would use down south.
But yes, to answer your question, it's pretty
much a very good rendering or -- you know, 90 percent,
maybe, of what Dairy Queen would recommend for their
exterior look.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay. A question for
Mr. Bowdell. What's the percentage of the EFIS right
now that they're using?
MR. BOWDELL: I don't know the exact
percentage. They're only allowed ten percent --
MS. PARLOVE: Right.
MR. BOWDELL: -- of a building wall. This is
all EFIS, from this all the way down, essentially, the
middle section. This is a brick veneer and this is
metal paneling. I would not know the exact percentage.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay.
MR. GARY IGNASIAK: May I -- may I answer
that? I am Ryan's father, Gary Ignasiak. That EFIS
second.
comments.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Please hold on just a
Thank you. We're looking to have your
Please identify your name --
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MR. GARY IGNASIAK: Gary Ignasiak. I'm
Ryan's father.
THE CHAIRPERSON: -- and address, please.
MR. GARY IGNASIAK: 167 9 South Riverside,
St. Clair, Michigan.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR. GARY IGNASIAK: It's probably about
28 percent --
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR. GARY IGNASIAK: -- of the outside
exterior, the EFIS.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay. The reason I ask is
because we have another petitioner here tonight who's
also trying to request a variance on the amount of EFIS
used on his petition. And there's a reason that we
have this standard for the City and people keep asking
for the variance and I have a -- I personally have a
problem with it. The renderings are beautiful; there's
no question about it. But it's less than the ten
percent so is it possible to get it to ten percent?
MR. GARY IGNASIAK: Anything is possible.
Again, this is -- Ryan misspoke. This is Dairy Queen's
plan --
MS. PARLOVE: Right.
MR. GARY IGNASIAK: period.
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MS. PARLOVE: Right.
MR. GARY IGNASIAK: We have a little
flexibility, only because we've been in the system for
56 years. I would like to stay with it. And one of
the reasons we'd like to stay with it is it gives us an
opportunity, with the EFIS, to make a change in the
color scheme five years, ten years down the road,
financially with the least amount of money being spent.
It could be repainted.
Before, Dairy Queen was red, white and blue.
Today they're blue with an orange and red and we're
going to say a butterscotch color. The EFIS will be
butterscotch, a very light butterscotch. What that
does is gives us the opportunity, down the road,
instead of doing a complete remodel on the outside, to
take that EFIS and maybe paint it their existing
requirements ten years down the road.
Dairy Queen, every year, more and more, ties
our hands on what we can do as a franchisee. Because
we are a franchise, we have to adhere to Dairy Queen's
requirements -- Ryan said 90 -- probably 99 percent of
the time.
We can make some of the EFIS brick. This was
our original plan, coming forward. We can probably add
more brick. The expense is a little bit more but I
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would hate to have to paint brick down the road a
different color if Dairy Queen so deems it. The EFIS
just offers us greater flexibility.
MS. PARLOVE: Right. I understand. I know
that's why the product is used, for that flexibility.
Even if you were -- well, I don't know if you'd bring
the metal further down, it would be easier, probably,
to bring the brick up. But that would be my request is
to increase the amount of brick used and reduce the
amount of EFIS. If it's more than 10 percent,
something in the middle, between 10 and 28, would make
me more comfortable.
MR. GARY IGNASIAK: I understand.
MS. PARLOVE: But other than that, it looks
great to me.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
To Commissioner Payne, please.
MS. PAYNE: Good evening. And I'd just like
to compliment you on the appearance of your business.
It -- you know, each time I've gone by, you know, it's
really -- the upkeep, I cannot expound upon how great
that it is. So we definitely appreciate that.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Thank you.
MS. PAYNE: One of the other things that I
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wanted to ask, if you had surveyed your surrounding
neighbors in that area, just to see what their thoughts
are on, you know, perhaps a little bit more noise with
the speaker or --
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: I have.
MS. PAYNE: Okay.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: I've had two or three
individuals approach me when they got their notice in
the mail and just some kind of, you know, wondered what
was going on and I asked a few of them their thoughts
on it leading up to submitting everything.
MS. PAYNE: Okay.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: And everyone seemed to
have a positive aspect. Again, I asked them, you know,
has the noise level been an issue, you know, would you
like to see, you know, better -- you know, the
structure facing a certain way or the drive-through
facing a certain way, the speaker.
And at this time, no one's complained or said
anything over the years. Our drive-through speaker has
been in that same place since we installed it probably
25 years ago
MR. GARY IGNASIAK: 30.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: 30. And having -- moving
it now so it's facing towards the road almost, a little
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bit, or the side street is even better because now it's
not in a direct line with any residential homes.
MS. PAYNE: Great. Super. And so you are in
agreement with the recommendations of the Department,
Planning.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: The recommendation for
what?
MS. PAYNE: Are you in agreement with the
recommendation?
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: For the drive-through?
MS. PAYNE: Here, yes.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Yes, yeah.
MS. PAYNE: Okay. That's all I have.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
To Commissioner Fegley, please.
MS. FEGLEY: Hi.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Hello.
MS. FEGLEY: How are you? With one of the
recommendations, it says a ground sign must be removed
from the right-of-way. Is that something that you're
planning on doing or is that the one sign that you
wanted to keep; which sign is that?
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: The ground sign, I
believe that's a misprint. We don't have any ground
sign proposed.
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MS. FEGLEY: Okay.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: We show two existing pole
signs. The one on the north will be removed. Yes,
right there. And the southern one we'd like to keep.
MR. BOWDELL: Yeah, I'm guessing this is
misprint, then.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Yes.
MS. FEGLEY: Okay. So it's not --
MR. GARY IGNASIAK: The existing signs are
here and here. This was for the Blind Recreational
Society and we just utilized it when we acquired that
property years ago. That proposed -- that pole will
come down. Our original Dairy Queen sign, which sits
right here, with it not in the right-of-way but on our
property, we would like to maintain and that will be
the only sign.
MS. FEGLEY: Okay. With the new landscaping
plan, does it not meet all of the street trees, then,
Gordon?
MR. BOWDELL: It is required to have street
trees by -- by the zoning ordinance and none are
proposed. These are two existing street trees.
MS. FEGLEY: Okay.
MR. BOWDELL: I think there's -- I have to
check the report but I think there's five required on
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Baldwin and three required on Chicago and three
required on West New York.
MS. FEGLEY: Okay. So there's no trees at
the top there? What are -- are
MR. BOWDELL: This is -- these are the seven
trees that are proposed on the private property.
MS. FEGLEY: Okay.
MR. BOWDELL: In addition to that, the zoning
ordinance requires three in the actual right-of-way --
MS. FEGLEY: Okay.
MR. BOWDELL: -- between the sidewalk and the
street.
MS. FEGLEY: Would you have any objection to
planting a couple street trees on Baldwin or one of the
two secondary streets?
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: On the north side, those
seven trees, again, it was -- it was our initial
rendering. If we need to have them on the -- I'm
sorry. What's the terminology for the
MR. BOWDELL: Yeah, in the right-of-way.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: right-of-way, I'd be
more than happy to put as many as we need to out there
on that north side. Maybe we could stagger them
MS. FEGLEY: Okay.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: -- you know, some on the
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private property, some on the right-of-way.
The south side, those trees that we have
existing are good, old trees, they're huge, huge. You
know, we maintain them, trim them. But to put any on
the private property or along there, there's really no
room for it.
MS. FEGLEY: Okay.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: We've had some people
look, take some measurements and we couldn't put any
new trees there without removing those.
MS. FEGLEY: Okay.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: And on the Baldwin side,
we proposed plenty of shrubbery and greenery. The
shrubs would be deciduous, you know, shedding their
leaves in the off season.
MS. FEGLEY: Yeah, I definitely like the
arborvitae along the residential; that works well.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Correct.
MS. FEGLEY: I'd just like to see maybe the
street trees that are required just to add some more
shade and a little more buffer between the people
coming out and enjoying their ice cream.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Okay. Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, I'd personally like
to compliment you.
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MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: You run a very
smart-looking business, orderly, neat, clean. This
City could benefit greatly by having -- I went by any
number of businesses today, I always get a last minute
snapshot. And litter populates is one of the dreaded
issues of this City. But so your business is clean,
it's neat, it's orderly. So my compliments to that.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: And the points with regard
to building materials are good ones but I would have to
say that, most importantly, we're looking for
businesses that are well run, that looks smart and, to
me, I think it looks proper, I think it looks smart.
take on board your comments with regard to a
franchisee's later necessity to change, modify. You
know, there are a lot of businesses. Those that are
successful are able to navigate the course by changing
courses as needed. So I concur with what you're
saying.
With regard to Baldwin and the right-of-way,
I notice that Baldwin, unfortunately, is devoid of
of trees, not only in your property but kind of up and
down. So in the -- I
Gordon, what do they have there, one, two,
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three -- at least my photo shows one, two, three,
four -- not -- not up there, along Baldwin at the
corner there, there, that angle right there, that's a
right-of-way, right?
MR. BOWDELL: Correct.
THE CHAIRPERSON: And then moving up, then,
the number two right there, then three and then four,
right?
So, to the best of our ability, to put trees
in or shrubbery in there, I just -- you know, it's not
only visual but it's also with regard to water
retention and runoff and that sort of thing. So but
I'd like to compliment you. I think your business
looks very --
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I like to use that word
"smart". It looks very smart. And so those are my
comments. This is a public hearing. I'm going to open
the public hearing and anyone that has any comments,
please come forward.
It doesn't look like we have a stampede. So
I'm-- without further ado, I'm going to close Public
Hearing. And any further comments or questions before
we go to a motion?
MS. PARLOVE: May I?
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Are you willing to add -- again, for my
personal edification, is it -- is it possible to add
more brick to your facade?
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Yes, it's not a problem.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Like my father had said,
we had originally thought to put extra brick, whether
it be higher, on certain sides of the building.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: And just seeing the
blueprints we had to work with and, you know, our
initial thoughts, this is what we submitted. But I --
we have no -- I have no problem adding more brick to
it.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: We have that availability
to us.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay. I don't know if that's
something that we need to put into the response today
or if it's something that we can take--
MR. BOWDELL: If that's -- if the Planning
Commission would like more brick, I would ask that they
tie it into their motion.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay. Thank you.
only question.
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That's my
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THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Any further comments
or questions before we go to a motion?
MS. PAYNE: I guess my question would be, in
regards to the parking, and I guess I'll trust Gordon
with that, you say 28 spaces for the-- that's
MR. BOWDELL: Correct.
MS. PAYNE: That's --
MR. BOWDELL: Yeah, 28 spaces are required.
MS. PAYNE: Okay. I guess that's a pretty
busy place in the summer. Okay. Okay. That's all I
have.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. May we have a
motion, please?
MS. CADD: I have one other question. Do we
have a picture that you can put up, please? Thank you.
The color one. Okay. My only question is that's
Baldwin going up and down and I -- I -- where they have
their outdoor patio, that works great all year-round.
And the way I understand the way the building is now,
it's going to be going-- the widest part is going to
be facing up and down, like parallel to Baldwin,
correct?
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Yes.
MS. CADD: Okay. You have the green area
there, the land that doesn't have parking.
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doing anything with that or is that going to be as is?
That part, yes.
MR. BOWDELL: This? This is all going to be,
essentially, paved. Part of their parking lot, as
they're building, basically, goes almost to this
section here.
MS. CADD: Okay.
MR. BOWDELL: And so that's going to be the
drive-through with that landscaping they had proposed
on the north end.
MS. CADD: Okay. And those front parts of
Baldwin where we want them to plant trees, my only
suggestion and the reason I thought the shrubs might be
better in certain areas than the trees is because those
trees are going to get larger every year and, at some
point, then it's going to create a problem when you're
trying to drive out on Baldwin. I think the little
shrubs would be more suitable; that's my opinion.
And maybe if the trees are down towards the
larger area where Chicago and Baldwin meet. That part,
uh-huh. But I think the part that's wider, the shrubs
that you suggest, I thought, would look great there.
Am I does that make sense or --
MS. FEGLEY: I think that top curb cut's
going to be eliminated in the new plan, correct?
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MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Correct.
MS. FEGLEY: So that's all going to be green
space in there?
MR. BOWDELL: And just for clarification, the
shrubs are proposed on the Applicant's property. The
street trees that I believe we were referencing are,
actually, the applicant maintains but they're in-- on
City property or in the City right-of-way. And those
are, typically, if -- if they are required by the
Planning Commission, those are typically trees, not
shrubs, in the right-of-way.
MS. CADD: Okay.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MAYOR WATERMAN: Yes. I'd like to make a
comment, just a point of clarification as we prepare to
make this motion. I've heard that the owners state
that willing to put in more brick. But I would suggest
that this be left pretty -- pretty vague so that the
amount of brick can be to the specifications of the
design plan. The design plan here looks like it has a
certain division, based upon the window, as I see.
So rather than tie them down to any specific
amount, I would like to leave some architectural leeway
here so that they can do that.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Great.
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MAYOR WATERMAN: And also the fact that, even
though the EFIS is a little bit more than is
conformity, still this isn't just solid EFIS here, this
EFIS is broken up by a pretty large bank of windows
there. So I think this nonconformity is a little
different than if it were solid EFIS altogether.
So I would suggest that, if we're going to do
that, that we, you know, just leave it up to the design
plan to come up with the most esthetically pleasing way
to increase the brick.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any further
comments?
May we have a motion?
MS. PARLOVE: I would question, how are we
going to address the trees, then, based on what's
written here?
MR. BOWDELL: If the Commission likes the
Applicant's plan-- I apologize -- it would be this
recommendation to -- with these five conditions if they
want them to comply with all the zoning ordinance
requirements. It's essentially what is in your packet.
If they want the landscape plan that the Applicant
proposed and street trees, they would just add that to
these five conditions.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Gordon, you would have
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oversight, right, and further discussion with them with
regard to if they agree to landscaping requirements,
right?
In other words, they're not specifying,
''We're putting this here, we're putting that there''?
MR. BOWDELL: Correct, we would do that
administratively.
THE CHAIRPERSON: So what I'm trying to get
to is, in a motion, can we put it that Petitioner will
work with you to meet specifications?
MR. BOWDELL: As long as the Planning
Commission decides what those specifications are.
MS. FEGLEY: Yeah. Because one of them's 25
trees. I think that's a little much to fit in that
site.
I'm okay with a landscape plan with the trees
on both the secondary, I would just maybe like to see
two more street trees on Baldwin, just to -- that's --
that would be sufficient with the landscaping that they
have now.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay. I'd like to make a
motion, then, to approve the proposed site plan review
and a special exception permit, PF-15-33 for
1525 Baldwin Avenue, Dairy Queen, an accessory
drive-through establishment, with a modification of
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required building materials to allow the Applicant to
utilize the proposed rendering with an additional
amount of brick to replace the EFIS portion of the
exterior and subject to the following conditions of
Recommendation 2, which is on the screen, right?
With two additional street trees on Baldwin.
MS. FEGLEY: Second.
MR. BOWDELL: And just for a point of
reference for the Commission, if I may, Chair, this
motion-- the motion that Ms. Parlove made is not in
your packet. This is the based off of the revised
site plan that was submitted after these packets were
generated.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
compliance with what was proposed? Because we're in
a -- because I don't
MR. BOWDELL: Correct. It's with their
with their land-- with what Ms. Parlove's motion was
their landscape plan with the modification of the brick
and two additional street trees on Baldwin?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Correct.
MR. SABO: Correct.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. We have a move and a
second, I guess.
MS. PAYNE: Yeah, there was a second.
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did.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Any comments or questions
before we go to roll call, please?
MR. NORTHCROSS: Just a question. This
Recommendation 2 differs from the current
recommendation, only in the -- the landscape plan? I
see eight items on the recommendation we have in our
package and I see five
MR. BOWDELL: All the landscape conditions
were removed.
MR. NORTHCROSS: Okay. Thank you. Thank you
for that clarification.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. We'll wait for
further comments or question before we go to roll call.
Okay. Roll call, please.
MR. BOWDELL: Commissioner Parlove?
MS. PARLOVE: Yes.
MR. BOWDELL: Commissioner Fegley?
MS. FEGLEY: Yes.
MR. BOWDELL: Commissioner Payne?
MS. PAYNE: Yes.
MR. BOWDELL: Commissioner Northcross?
MR. NORTHCROSS: Yes.
MR. BOWDELL: Commissioner Cadd?
MS. CADD: Yes.
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MR. BOWDELL: Mayor Waterman?
MAYOR WATERMAN: Yes.
MR. BOWDELL: Chair Thomas?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR. BOWDELL: Motion carries.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Thank you very much.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Congratulations.
MS. PAYNE: Congratulations.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Appreciate it. Thank
you. Look forward to seeing you all. Thank you,
Ladies, and thank you, Gentlemen.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MS. PAYNE: Good luck.
MR. RYAN IGNASIAK: Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Item Number 3 is
PF-14-34, it is a site plan review, facade modification
request at 441 North Perry Street and Mr. Bowdell will
present.
MR. BOWDELL: Thank you. A PF-15-34 facade
modification request for 441 North Perry, Perry's
Palace. Zoning is C-1, local business district. This
is the site here, perry and Chamberlain Street. Site
plan review to permit a modification of required
building design standards, essentially, to exceed the
maximum percentage of EFIS allowed on the building.
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This is the existing building. This is a CMU
block, an awning. And this is a -- I think it's called
Tl-11 that vertical wood siding. The applicant has
proposed two options. This is a first option. This is
EFIS, a cornice and, essentially, roughly three foot of
brick veneer at the base.
And option two is roughly six feet of brick
veneer at the base with that EFIS and cornice.
Zoning is C-1, local business district. It
is Perry's Palace and will continue that use. Proposed
EFIS exceeds the required -- the ten percent brick
veneer base is proposed, new awnings are proposed and
that architectural detail at the top of the building is
proposed.
Meets all the requirements for height
requirements and placement is existing. As I stated,
the building materials is nonconforming. The primary
building material essentially shall be used on a
minimum of 60 percent of the facade, which is supposed
to be a natural or natural-appearing stone, brick or
wood.
Accent materials may be used up to 40 percent
of the facade with no more than ten percent being EFIS.
The Applicant is, obviously, seeking a
request -- a modification from that ten percent.
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Base, middle cap, it meets that standard with
the brick base, if they permit EFIS as that middle,
that would comply and that cap, for that cornice or
architectural detail.
Building transparency, 40 percent of the
front facade is posed to be transparent. Due to the
layout of the interior of the store, the Applicant is
seeking to remove two windows. The intent of the
transparency requirement is to create a more
store-front appearance. The existing windows do not
necessarily appear to meet the intent of this
requirement and the Applicant is essentially seeking a
modification for this requirement as well.
Ground story design, it meets that standard.
Mechanical equipment and service area, it
meets that standard as well.
Modification requirements, the Planning
Commission shall take these into account when granting
a modification. Approval of a modification will not
result in a development that lS incompatible with or
will negatively impact existing or potential future
development in the vicinity of the subject property.
2, the requested modification is consistent
with the intent and purpose of the zoning ordinance.
3, the modification will result in a superior
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development when compared with what could be achieved
through a strict application of the design and esthetic
requirements of the zoning ordinance.
And 4, a lesser modification will not
accomplish the same purpose as the requested
modifications.
No sign, tree survey, exterior lighting,
landscaping or parking is proposed.
The planning analysis does exceed the maximum
percentage of EFIS. The Applicant has provided two
options for -- for the proposed facade modification,
one with that three foot of face brick, two, with that
six foot of face brick at the bottom. The Applicant
has stated that they would prefer that second option,
which is that more brick facade.
The interior layout of the building appeared
to be an impediment to the design of the front of the
building. Due you to the location of their coolers,
there is a bump out on the front. That bump out
creates a unique building appearance, which appears to
prevent the Applicant from complying with that -- those
transparency requirements.
According to the zoning ordinance, due to the
uniqueness of the interior layout, a modification seems
to be appropriate for those transparency requirements.
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In order to comply with the transparency requirement,
the interior of the building would have to be
redesigned.
Both facade renovation options appear to be
an improvement to the building. The Planning
Commission may approve with conditions or deny the
modification request. The Planning Department believes
that some type of modification should be granted for
this property.
The recommendation is -- there's two. One is
to approve with that Option 1, which is the three foot
of brick and the rest EFIS. And the second option is
to approve with the six foot of brick and the rest
EFIS.
I can answer any questions you may have and
the applicant is here as well.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Bowdell.
Petitioner, please come forward and state
your name and address for the record, please.
MR. YONO: Justin Yono, 31214 Kingsley Court
in Novi.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Good evening, Justin. You
heard Mr. Bowdell's presentation of your case.
Anything you'd like to add or change?
MR. YONO: I mean, just other than trying to
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beautify the building. It's getting old. Me and
Mr. Bowdell have been going back probably two years
now, back and forth, trying to figure out the best way
to do it. Because of that bump out, I can't put too
much brick because it won't hold back into the
foundation. I finally found somebody that's willing to
do six feet and that's why I wanted to go with Proposal
2.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Anything else you'd like
to --
MR. YONO: I mean, I've been there for 13
years, going on 14 in October. I got no violations.
I've been cooperating with the City anytime they need,
anything. I'm there and don't plan on going nowhere
for a while.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. All right. Thank
you. This is not a public hearing. So, without
further ado, I'm going to go to Commissioner
Northcross, please.
MR. NORTHCROSS: Wow. I guess what's the
result in Recommendation 1 versus Recommendation 2 in
terms of coverage and everything?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Bowdell?
MR. NORTHCROSS: I guess there's a question
about being greater than ten percent and then also a
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40 percent requirement, I guess, for what, transparency
or
MR. BOWDELL: Correct. Yeah, the -- there
essentially, there's two -- these are the existing
windows. The two windows that they're looking to
remove are, essentially, here, where their coolers are
existing.
And the first option -- the first option is
to reduce -- or to increase the amount of EFIS allowed
and only have a base of brick at three feet and modify
the transparency requirement to, essentially, what's
existing, minus two windows.
The second option is to increase that brick
veneer to six feet and still modify the transparency
requirement to what is already existing on the
building.
I will say -- the only thing I will say, the
reason EFIS is -- is limited to ten percent is,
typically, it's -- it doesn't have the longevity of a
durable material, like brick or stone. And, obviously,
the more durable materials you have on the exterior of
the building for longevity purposes, it will maintain a
nicer appearance in the long run.
MR. NORTHCROSS: So with -- with the six foot
of brick, are we now meeting the ten percent?
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MR. BOWDELL: No.
MR. NORTHCROSS: Or would
MR. BOWDELL: I would say they still probably
have 55 percent EFIS or 60 percent EFIS.
MR. NORTHCROSS: And neither -- neither
option would meet the transparency requirements?
MR. BOWDELL: Correct. But to note that
there could -- it, basically, would be impossible for
them, unless they reconfigured the interior of their
building to remove this bump out. Their coolers are
located here and, essentially, if you wanted them to
met that transparency requirement, expand the windows,
they'd have to design that -- redesign the interior of
their building.
MR. NORTHCROSS: And the issue with the brick
being any higher than six feet, is that of the support
of the brick at the base?
MR. YONO: Correct.
MR. NORTHCROSS: Hmm. Okay. Yeah, but I see
that -- and I concur that either design is a step
forward from what will be an improvement than what we
have today -- a continued improvement.
MR. YONO: Yeah.
MR. NORTHCROSS: Not that what we have today
is inadequate but this would be an improvement over and
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above that.
MR. YONO: I'm right next door to
Little Caesars and there's -- he has a picket fence in
between my lot and his lot and I've spoken to him. He
said if I was to go through with this project and you
guys approved it, he's willing to sit down and talk
about me moving that landscaping, also, so that way, on
Perry, you'll have no blockage, it will be a straight
shot.
MR. NORTHCROSS: Oh, okay. Well, thank you.
No further questions.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you.
To Commissioner Cadd, please.
MS. CADD: Thank you and welcome. I agree
that I like the Option 2 as a preference to the one
with the more brick, even though it doesn't, you know,
create less edifice as we would like.
I'm just kind of reminded there's some new
buildings out in Rochester by the Meijer's that looks
similar to that and it looks very esthetically-pleasing
to me.
I don't really want to, for the exterior of
the building, make them rearrange the whole inside; I
think that's an expense that we shouldn't put upon
them. They're an existing business. We want to create
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more business and that's my opinion. Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you.
Mayor Waterman?
MAYOR WATERMAN: I agree with the preference
for Option 2 that has more brick. I think the main
point here is that it's beautifying and upgrading and
existing building with existing structural
particularities. And so the idea is to encourage and
abet new buildings to beautify that building for the
purpose of the community and for your patrons without
incurring undue changes to an already existing facade.
So I think that's the basis on which I would,
you know, make a decision in voting on this. In
addition to the fact that I like the fact that you are
not only talking about your own individual property but
are working out, regionally, with a business partner,
in terms of making it -- an aid and beautification of
that -- of that area. So I commend you for that as
well and for having a longstanding business there that
you want to continue to supplant and to beautify for
the community.
MR. YONO: Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
To Commissioner Parlove, please.
MS. PARLOVE: Good evening, Justin, and
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welcome.
MR. YONO: Thank you.
MS. PARLOVE: And congratulations on your
longevity of your business.
MR. YONO: Thank you.
MS. PARLOVE: I did drive by it the other day
and it needs a little freshening for sure so thank you
for bringing these plans. They certainly are a
beautiful step in the right direction and I'm sure you
were listening to me say earlier that EFIS is a little
bit of a concern for me when it's used as a majority or
a portion of the elevation that's in excess of what the
City requests.
If you were to add more brick, and it's going
to effect the foundation of the building, I can
understand your hesitancy to add more brick. However,
there are other products that are natural or in the
case of the Petitioner that was here just before, they
had some metal that they were proposing that they were
using, which is not EFIS. Is there another option that
we can possibly explore with you?
MR. YONO: I mean, we've -- within the budget
that we're working with, this was what we can come up
with as best as we could without going with the brick.
I mean, we tried metal. Metal is getting expensive and
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it starts rusting over time and it's hard to upkeep,
where EFIS, you can paint it and you can go back and
repair it.
And that was one of the reasons why we went
with the six foot because everybody suggested, if I'm
going to go with three feet, people walking up to the
store, they're going to put their cigarette out right
there where you can go out with a power washer and
clean it on brick, which you can't do that on EFIS.
MS. PARLOVE: Sure. I understand. And also,
I don't have any problem with the facade being the
configuration that it is. I don't think you need any
more transparency as far as adding windows or changing
that.
In my travels, I notice that when EFIS has
not been painted, it looks just a little bit tired and
that's about the only option, at this point. If the
budget is such that this is what you need to do in
order to move forward, I can sympathize with that.
But, at the same time, we're trying to move everything
forward in the City. We've got a lot of people
interested that are doing things that are bringing
businesses in. They're also improving what they have.
And so what you're doing is you're drawing
attention to yourself in a very positive way by
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improving your business at the same time as you're
going to be an example for your neighbor at Little
Caesars, he's going to start to improve as well. We're
looking to you to continue doing what you've done at
this point with this improvement, if you can continue
to maintain that exterior, if it is the EFIS.
MR. YONO: I mean, after spending the money I
plan on spending, I have no choice but to keep it up.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay. Good. All right. Those
are all my questions. Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
Commissioner Payne, please.
MS. PAYNE: I'd just like to say good evening
and thank you so very much for your interest in -- in
doing some improvements on your building. And so I
really do appreciate that. One of the things that --
questions that I had was windows. But I guess -- now,
that looks like -- is that, like, a two-story or is
that
MR. YONO: It is a two-story building. It
used to be apartments up there but they're just empty,
so --
MS. PAYNE: Okay. So what --
MR. YONO: That's one of the reasons why it
costs so much and so much EFIS, is because it's a
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two-story building.
MS. PAYNE: Okay. So what are you putting up
there now?
MR. YONO: It's just going to stay like it
is. We'll be changing the windows and leaving it.
MS. PAYNE: No apartments?
MR. YONO: No.
MS. PAYNE: Okay. So are there any plans for
signage? You said their
MR. YONO: Not right now. If we do, only
suggestion we were thinking about doing is just putting
''Perry's Palace'' on the tower, if that was an option.
MS. PAYNE: Okay.
MR. YONO: In that area.
MS. PAYNE: Okay. And, then, sir --
MR. YONO: It would be more like an EFIS
bubbled out, painted a different color.
MS. PAYNE: Is there like a -- did I see an
enclosed dumpster anywhere?
MR. YONO: No, there's not an enclosed
dumpster.
MS. PAYNE: So
MR. YONO: But that -- that could be an
option, right, where the dumpster is on the side.
MS. PAYNE: That would be great, if that's
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I mean, I don't know if it's possible.
MR. YONO: That would be one of the options
when Little Caesars removes that landscaping because
there's landscaping behind it and we would be fencing
it off between my dumpster and his dumpster where it
would be sitting back there.
MS. PAYNE: Okay. And parking. With the new
improvement, I'm sure you're going to have an increase
in customers.
MR. YONO: That's one of the reasons why
we're trying to get the landscaping taken out with
Little Caesars so we can share parking.
MS. PAYNE: Okay, great. Smart. Okay. And
project timeline, beginning and end?
MR. YONO: As soon as I can get approval.
MS. PAYNE: Okay.
MR. YONO: My contractor said probably within
a month we should be complete.
please.
MS. PAYNE: In a month?
MR. YONO: Yeah.
MS. PAYNE: Wow. Okay. Well, thank you.
MR. YONO: Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Fegley,
MS. FEGLEY: I don't have any comments.
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THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Yes, Justin,
actually, this is kind of in my front yard or my
backyard, one way or the other. I'm on Oliver Street.
I remember that market when it was Giglio's Market.
Did it show up on the title?
MR. YONO: Yeah, they're on the title.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, the good news is
you're doing a facade and I want to be kind here but
you're overdue. It needs it. And what are your plans
for the parking lot; are you going to repave the
parking lot?
MR. YONO: Yes.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. We need your help.
You mentioned Little Caesars and I do business with
them but I know you've been there for 13 years or
thereabouts but you have had a couple altercations.
MR. YONO: We had one incident two years ago
the 4th of July and that was the only problem I've had
there in 13 years.
major one.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. It was a pretty
MR. YONO: Yeah.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR. YONO: Unfortunately.
THE CHAIRPERSON: So we need you as a
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neighbor to help us.
MR. YONO: Oh, I'm in contact with the
Captain all the time. I speak to the Captain all the
time.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. You know, just kind
of-- and I'm a citizen and I happen to be on this
Commission and you're in my neighborhood and we want
business and we want good business and I hope you do
your business continues to grow but, you know,
cleanliness and litter is -- you know, equals
orderliness and that equals safety. And if you'll pull
with Little Caesars to do your best, that area does
get -- I mean, I don't canvas it every day but there's
some litter that populates there, right? I mean --
MR. YONO: Yeah, I got people that go out
there and I go out there myself to try to clean up as
much as I could. And I'll stand out there and a guy
will take his ashtray and dump it right in front of me.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I know. It happens out in
front of my house. So I'm not standing in front of
this. I just -- you know, I'm in your neighborhood,
you're in my neighborhood. We want you to succeed and
I like you're doing-- you know, you're putting a
new facade, it's an improvement because I don't think,
since Giglio's opened in, I don't know, 1948, I don't
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think much has happened. But -- so anyhow, I wish you
the best. This is not a public hearing. So any
further comments or question before we seek a motion?
May we have a motion, please?
MAYOR WATERMAN: I'll do it. A motion that
we approve the site plan PF-15-35 at 441 North Perry
Street for a modification of building design standards,
consistent with Option 2 elevations, subject to
obtaining all permits and reviews from the Department
of Building and Safety.
MS. CADD: I support.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that a second?
MS. CADD: Yeah, I support that.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So we have a move
and a second. Any further comments or questions before
we go to roll call?
May we have roll call, please.
MR. BOWDELL: Mayor Waterman?
MAYOR WATERMAN: Yes.
MR. BOWDELL: Commissioner Cadd?
MS. CADD: Yes.
MR. BOWDELL: Commissioner Parlove?
MS. PARLOVE: Yes.
MR. BOWDELL: Commissioner Payne?
MS. PAYNE: Yes.
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MR. BOWDELL: Commissioner Northcross?
MR. NORTHCROSS: Yes.
MR. BOWDELL: Commissioner Fegley?
MS. FEGLEY: Yes.
MR. BOWDELL: And Chair Thomas?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR. BOWDELL: Motion carries.
MR. YONO: Thank you, guys.
MS. PAYNE: Congratulations.
THE CHAIRPERSON: We wish you the best.
Thank you. Okay. To Item PF-15-36. This is a site
plan review, building addition, 260 Beverly Avenue and
Mr. Sabo will present.
MR. SABO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is
the site here. 260 East Beverly. It's a GM stamping
plant. Site plan review for an expansion at Plant 14,
a single large building addition. That's the north
elevation. It's about 92-, 93,000 square feet.
Last year the Commission approved two other
building additions for truck logistics. This is the
area of the expansion here. This is Beverly and
Highland -- Highwood. Excuse me. This is a close-up.
92,000 square feet. The elevation's pretty straight
forward. It's an industrial building. This is the
front door. This is the exterior front of the factory.
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It's very, very large. Those are -- those two dots are
people so it's a big facility.
Zoning's M-2, general industrial. Future
land use map, entrepreneurial, commercial, industrial
and green. It complies with all the standards of the
2014 master plan.
Update: Planning Commission can consider
this in its review. New construction; building
addition at the north elevation; pre-finished,
insulated metal panels; new front entry area is
reconfigured; new pavement area to replace a
construction removal and they're going to reconfigure
that berm on the east property line with the
construction soil.
The existing building's about 52 feet in
height. They're proposing a building here at 67 feet.
So they need a variance from the Zoning Board for
height.
height.
site.
They are expanding an existing, nonconforming
Everything else complies in this section.
Tree survey, site's completely developed.
Exterior lighting, no changes.
Trash receptacle is taken care of on the
Landscaping all complies.
It's a large site. We allow the landscaping.
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The Planning Commission did adjust that landscape from
for 40 deciduous trees back in 2014 as part of that
other -- all the other two approvals.
Parking as well, it's going to cut into some
of their parking but the Planning Commission adjusted
that parking last year to 1,115 spaces. The rest
complies.
Proposed use and expansion is a combatable
use in an M-2 zone. Site appears to be clear regarding
the building addition. The site's large, should easily
blend in with the facade, single compliance issue is
that height at 67 feet. It's an expansion of an
existing legal nonconforming use but they do need the
height to expand that existing nonconformity.
The rest is pretty straightforward. Proposed
building complies with nearly all those except that
height variance.
Recommendation here is to approve
260 East Beverly with those recommendations, standards,
the 22-foot height variance from the ZBA and the rest
are straightforward.
It's a large industrial site so there's
engineering standards, building construction standards,
fire code standards, et cetera. I'll entertain any
questions. The Petitioner is here as well.
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THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Sabo. Will
the Petitioner come forward, please.
Mr. Huhta, please state your name and address
for the record.
MR. HUHTA: Sure. Thank you for the
opportunity to be here tonight. I'm Jeff Huhta with
Nowak & Fraus Engineering and we're representing the
applicant here tonight, General Motors.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Always good to see you,
Jeff.
MR. HUHTA: Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: With Mr. Saba's
presentation of the case, anything you'd like to add or
change or modify?
MR. HUHTA: No, I think, in general, as
usual, Mr. Sabo does a very thorough job in the overall
presentation and we'd be happy to answer any questions
that you guys might have.
THE CHAIRPERSON: I actually did the
presentation -- I didn't read it but I -- you know.
MR. SABO: He wrote it for me.
MR. HUHTA: All right.
MR. SABO: Very kind.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you for that.
This is not a public hearing so, without further ado,
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I'm going to go to Commissioner Northcross, please.
MR. NORTHCROSS: The height item, I was just
trying to find that elevation that would give a picture
of the height. Is that the last one in our package
that says ''Building elevation"?
MR. SABO: Yes, right there.
MR. NORTHCROSS: And that is the 67 -- what
is that? That is --
MR. SABO: 67 feet.
MR. NORTHCROSS: 67 feet?
MR. SABO: Correct.
MR. NORTHCROSS: And that is -- that would
cover everything, even items on top of the building,
like if they were to put any type of cooling or other
items on top. That would be the maximum height of the
building, period, with nothing higher, exceeding --
MR. HUHTA: That's correct.
MR. NORTHCROSS: -- going above that?
Okay. I -- I was looking at -- this looks
like it was just the building. I didn't know if it was
the building and there can be additional things on top
of that.
MR. HUHTA: Yeah, there's not a parapet or
anything like that or mechanical equipment that's going
to be up on the roof.
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MR. NORTHCROSS: Oh, okay.
MR. HUHTA: Everything is below or on grade.
MR. NORTHCROSS: No further questions.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you.
Commissioner Cadd, please.
MS. CADD: Thank you and welcome. I just
have a quick question for observance. 67 feet, that's
what, another two stories that you're adding for
production?
MR. HUHTA: Well, if you look at the
elevation that you see right there where the ladder
is --
MS. CADD: Yes.
MR. HUHTA: -- that's the height. That, I
believe, is what was referenced, the existing building.
So you're looking at another story on top of that.
MS. CADD: Okay.
MR. HUHTA: That the -- the brick portion of
the building there, it is a little bit higher in
elevation than a standard two-story but that's
basically two stories that you're looking at there.
MS. CADD: Okay. And I drive that way every
morning about 5:00, heading off to work.
MR. HUHTA: Sounds like you get around.
MS. CADD: And I noticed that U.S. Mail comes
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out on Saginaw quite a bit and I see that -- will they
still be sharing-- exiting that way that's
highlighted? If you could show that column, that
little -- right there on the --
MR. HUHTA: The lower left corner, yes.
MS. CADD: Yeah, right there.
MR. HUHTA: Yeah, that is the main access
point for all truck traffic coming into the facility.
MS. CADD: So that wouldn't change?
MR. HUHTA: No.
MS. CADD: Okay. And, just upon curiosity, I
noticed on the other side is where Jimenez Tires is.
And this might be a question for Mr. Sabo, I'm not
sure. And this is your proposal. But there used to be
a railroad track down there. It looked like they
dismantled some of it; is that correct?
MR. HUHTA: Yeah, that old railway
right-of-way has been abandoned.
MS. CADD: It's been abandoned. Because I
know when I lived in California and worked in real
estate, a lot of times, you know, if the railroad
wasn't utilizing that anymore, they would grant it to
you for, like, a dollar.
MR. HUHTA: Yeah, I believe --
MS. CADD: Has anybody approached them to do
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that?
MR. HUHTA: Yeah. I think, for the most
part, most of that railroad right-of-way has been
disposed of over the years.
MS. CADD: Okay.
MR. HUHTA: I know that other property owners
south of this location have already gained title to a
lot of those properties.
MS. CADD: Okay. Leave no ground unturned.
That was just my curiosity. Thank you.
MR. HUHTA: You're
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
To Mayor Waterman, please.
MAYOR WATERMAN: Yes. You're here again. So
just last year we approved the other expansion in the
Planning Commission for truck operations and logistics.
So this is the next expansion. And it was just a month
ago that I was invited to be there along with
Councilman Carter at GM's Plant 14 toward the
General Motors announcement that they were going to do
$5.4 billion of expansion worldwide, 124 million which
has been brought right here to Pontiac. So I was very
pleased to be part of that announcement.
And so, soon after, just with your
proficiency and efficiency here, you're here with the
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site plans already so-- for a 92,000 square foot
expansion. We just got a few pages here which
indicates the technical expertise that you have.
Everything is there's not much that Building and
Safety had to do to add to it, other than to -- very
detailed plans here, as well, as you always do.
MR. HUHTA: Thank you.
MAYOR WATERMAN: So this is good news for the
City of Pontiac and I see that you are ready to go and
so are we. Okay.
MR. HUHTA: We share in that good news.
Thank you.
MAYOR WATERMAN: All right.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
To Commissioner Parlove, please.
MS. PARLOVE: Welcome, good evening.
MR. HUHTA: Good evening.
MS. PARLOVE: Thank you for your beautiful
work. I have no questions.
MR. HUHTA: Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: All right. Thank you.
Commissioner Payne, please.
MS. PAYNE: Good evening and thank you for
your interest in Pontiac --
MR. HUHTA: I'm so
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MS. PAYNE: -- and your support, also. One
of the questions. This is kind of
260 Beverly Avenue, am I correct?
MR. HUHTA: The address? Yes.
MS. PAYNE: Okay. Because GPS system, I did
that yesterday and I'm going wow, I certainly hope that
everyone else is finding the building.
MR. HUHTA: Oh.
MS. PAYNE: Because it takes you right smack
down Beverly, that East Beverly and two houses on the
end and then there's, like, that division of a metal
bar that goes across and I'm going, ''Well, that must be
the place over there.'' So your address is-- I mean,
if anyone Googles that, you're --
MR. HUHTA: We'll have to double check that.
I'm sure our address is what the City tells us it is.
So --
MR. SABO: The -- I have -- Mr. Huhta may
already know this. But I've worked with a GM rep on
addressing some of the address issues related to the
property. So with the -- with this expansion and with
the expansion at 777 Joslyn, they do require additional
addresses and I have been working with GM and their rep
on getting correct addresses.
Now, with that said, I have a GPS, too, and
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sometimes it just can't figure out, just can't figure
it out. Because the sites are large and they're not
specific. They have an address but they're not
necessarily specific to that address, so -- yeah,
occasionally they get
MS. PAYNE: Hey, let's just blame Google.
Oh. I'm done. Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Fegley,
please.
MS. FEGLEY: I don't have any comments.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Well, I really don't
have any questions either, really. I -- I'm pleased
with this. Of course, I remember- you know, I'm old
enough to remember some of this history. But when
Pontiac Motor was there, a totally self-contained and
Fisher Body, all the way from Joslyn to Baldwin and
Montcalm, the foundry started then Tooling, Final
Assembly, Engineering, everything, anyhow, up to Drive
Away.
So but anyway, today we still have
Stamping and we still have Power Train as major
components. So pleased that GM has a major footprint
here, is a great citizen. As I mentioned to you
earlier, Power Train is one of the great treasured,
frankly, research facilities in the world and it just
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quietly operates up there. Almost no one really
realizes that it's there. So it's a true treasure.
We're grateful for the work. I'm grateful for the work
that you provide for GM. I'm personally grateful that
they're here.
And those are my comments. I just want to
let you know that I'm appreciative and that's in my
neighborhood as well.
MR. HUHTA: Very near.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MAYOR WATERMAN: I have one more comment, if
I may, Mr. Chairman. I'd also to just, while we're
talking about the GM Plant 14, just to give a shout out
to the UAW workers over there who were very much the
cheerleaders as that announcement was made about a
month ago. They fancied themselves the small car group
but, as I said in my remarks, they have a big effect.
So just a shout out and good neighbors and
there will be more jobs, too, as a result of this
expansion.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Very good. Thank you.
Any further comments or questions?
May we have a motion, please?
MS. PARLOVE: I make a motion to approve the
proposed site plan review for 260 East Beverly/220.
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East Columbia, PF-15-36, General Motors, LLC, Global
Facilities Plant 14 stamping facility subject to
compliance conditions listed here.
Number one, obtain a building height variance
of 22 feet from the ZBA for Section 2.315 of the zoning
ordinance in the M-2 general industrial district.
Number two, compliance with Engineering
Department conditions for construction plan review
related to on-site water detention and site drainage
standard.
Three, compliance with all building
construction codes and water resources commissioner
requirements.
Four, compliance with all fire code standards
and requirements.
And finally, number five, compliance with all
City of Pontiac's business licensing requirements.
a second.
call?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Very good. Thank you.
May we have a second, please?
MAYOR WATERMAN: Second.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. We have a motion and
Any further comments or question before roll
Mr. Sabo, roll call, please.
MR. SABO: Commissioner Parlove?
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MS. PARLOVE: Yes.
MR. SABO: Mayor Waterman?
MAYOR WATERMAN: Yes.
MR. SABO: Commissioner Northcross?
MR. NORTHCROSS: Yes.
MR. SABO: Commissioner Cadd?
MS. CADD: Yes.
MR. SABO: Commissioner Fegley?
MS. FEGLEY: Yes.
MR. SABO: Commissioner Payne?
MS. PAYNE: Yes.
MR. SABO: Chairman Thomas?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR. SABO: Motion carries unanimously.
Congratulations.
MR. HUHTA: Thank you very much for your
help.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Congratulations, Jeff.
MR. HUHTA: I appreciate it.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Always good to see you.
Let us know how we can help. Thank you very much.
Okay. To the last item on the agenda we
shall go. This is a public hearing. It's PF-15-37,
site plan review, special exception permit for
45905 Woodward Avenue. Mr. Sabo will present.
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MR. SABO: Thank you, Mr. Chair,
Commissioners. This is Oakland Auto Repair site on --
just south of the loop, right-hand side going south.
An aerial view of the site here.
Special exception permit for Class B used
vehicle dealer license at this location classified as
unlimited outdoor retail sales in the C-3 zone
district.
This is a site plan, proposed site plan of
their site. The cars organized at the front and the
side and the center there and then some customer
parking in the rear, pretty straightforward.
This is the existing site as it is today.
Left side, they do share the dumpster in this location
with the carwash next door. And this is from the south
looking north at the site right-of-way there. And then
sort of overall of the site. C-3 commercial future
land use map is the same as the GM parcel,
entrepreneurial, industrial, commercial and green.
Essentially, automobile services was there now. This
is compatible with the 2014 master plan, allows a lot
of flexibility here, light industrial uses, et cetera.
Planning Commission may wish to consider the
master plan when making a decision. No new
construction proposed, new used vehicle sales lot at
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the existing site.
Compliant with all the existing and proposed
setback area bulk requirements and all existing-- it's
a pretty large parcel.
No new signs proposed. However, State does
require a Class B license to have a sign so they'll
have to do that and comply with the sign ordinance.
No trees, no landmark trees, no exterior
lighting changes.
Landscaping, they need 1,346 square feet of
landscaping, they're proposing 1,152, that's
nonconforming. And they need four deciduous trees at
the site.
Applicant's requesting consideration of
section 4.413. And again, that information about the
dumpster just came so this -- it does not apply,
they're in nonconformity for the dumpster enclosure.
He said to me yesterday that he would double
stripe, it's not an issue but it is nonconforming so
they'll have to comply there.
Special Exception Permit Standards:
1, the lot requirement size, it meets that
standards, 27,000 square feet, 173 feet of frontage.
Setback, meets that standard. Woodward Avenue is
really the only frontage and he does meet that
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standard.
2, no adjacent residentially zoned property
here. So site is otherwise organized and neat -- this
is actually kind of the best place you want a used
vehicle dealer license. It back -- or dealer. It
backs up to industrial light industrial property and
fronts on a major commercial corridor, Woodward Avenue.
Vehicle sales lots shall be paved, it meets
this standard. However they need to pave the small
gravel area of their parking lot. That was an
engineering requirement.
Special exception permit standards, these are
all pretty straightforward. I won't belabor these.
Harmonious in accordance with the master
plan, it meets that standard.
Design constructed, operated, meets that
standard.
It's an industrial auto service use, not
change the character, meets that standard. It's been a
commercial building for some time.
Not hazardous or disturbing, may meet that
standard. Some people don't like used vehicle car lots
but I don't think it will change the nature of that
vicinity.
Served adequately by public utilities, meets
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the standards for materials, equipment or operations
that are detrimental. Planning Commission's authorized
to propose conditions of operation.
And meets standard 7 as well.
Planning analysis, in summary here, it's a
sales and service use, reasonably consistent with the
intent of the special exception permit standard and the
C-3 corridor commercial zoned district, a lot appears
to be reasonable.
Consistent with the character of the
neighborhood, master plan calls for height flexibility
and it's not abutting a residential zone district on
any side.
Some ordinance compliance issues, as you
mentioned, 4.413 is asking for modification of those
landscape requirements; I've included those in the
recommendation.
Existing building site is generally a paved
automotive use, pretty straightforward here.
Recommendation is, one, to approve special
exception permit and site plan review for 15-37 subject
to those standards. I won't read them all. But first
is 4.413, changing the landscape from 1,346 to-- I
forget what the number was existing. And then the
other is double striping, five trees, modification of
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the five street trees to the number the Planning
Commission may wish to provide. And then the rest
are -- 4 is not applicable because he does share the
dumpster. And then the Department of Engineering's
standard for paving the gravel portion of the lot.
That's my report. The applicant is not here
this evening. He has a family member, a father-in-law,
in the hospital and cannot be here. He asked me to
convey that to you and he gave me some information that
I may be able to answer some of the questions for him
but I told him I would present his case and he asked
for your consideration in his absence.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Sabo. Would
you take the podium, please.
MR. SABO: I --
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. We -- not required.
Thank you for that. So I'm sure there's still going to
be some questions. So let's go, as per normal, to
Commissioner Northcross, please.
MR. NORTHCROSS: Okay. Yes. The -- I
thought the current facility includes auto repair and
U-Haul rental. Is the proposed plan to stop the U-Haul
rental or will that still be part of the operation?
MR. SABO: I believe he is not enamored with
U-Haul; he did that for a couple years. And there are
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no U-Haul trucks there currently. And I think he's
wishing to change out that -- any of this U-Haul use to
used vehicle sales.
MR. NORTHCROSS: Okay. There are now U-Haul
trucks that are parked about two blocks south on
Woodward, right across from -- what is that, Rockwell,
I believe it is? And I was just wondering if that's
the same operation.
MR. SABO: I don't -- I don't think so.
MR. NORTHCROSS: Okay. But, in terms of the
site plans, getting back to the site plans, I don't
have any problems with what's being proposed here.
THE CHAIRPERSON: All set.
Commissioner Cadd, please.
MS. CADD: Thank you. I'm one of their
customers as well. I firmly believe that --
THE CHAIRPERSON: Are you setting up this
agenda; is that --
MS. CADD: No.
THE CHAIRPERSON: My goodness.
MS. CADD: I just am a firm believer, if you
have a business in Pontiac and you live in Pontiac, we
should patronize those businesses
THE CHAIRPERSON: Sure.
MS. CADD: -- so that our tax dollars --
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THE CHAIRPERSON: Sure.
MS. CADD: -- can be used here.
THE CHAIRPERSON: You're doing your share,
right?
MS. CADD: I am. I am. And I'll take over
the U-Haul when I get my business.
I have a question. On the gravel that needs
to be paved, are you going to give them a time limit on
it or is it something has to be done immediately?
MR. SABO: I suggested to him that the
year-end or within a year.
MS. CADD: Within a year, so about 12 months?
MR. SABO: (Nods head.)
MS. CADD: Good to know.
THE CHAIRPERSON: All set?
MS. CADD: That's it. Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
Mayor Waterman, please.
MAYOR WATERMAN: Yes. I guess I'll address
Mr. Sabo as well, since you're serving the place of the
Respondent. The -- they're requesting relief from the
usual landscaping requirements. Why is that relief
being asked for?
MR. SABO: The site is all asphalt. I don't
know if you can kind of see there, he's got -- he does
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some landscape and this could be -- he has not proposed
it but, certainly, he can dress that up a bit with
low -- low shrubs and things of that nature. It's a
display area so I imagine he wants, you know, people to
see his -- his vehicles for sale.
But landscaping available in this area here.
And I don't think I got the north -- yeah. Behind me
in this photo is an area of grass and shrubs as well on
the northeast corner of the site. But mostly it's
because the -- the site is pretty much completely
paved.
I did mention to him, Mr. Holder, that the
Planning Commission may want some flower planting -- or
flower pots or something of that nature to sort of
dress up the -- the front of his facade. So I prepared
him for that.
MAYOR WATERMAN: Okay. Thank you for the
answer to that. And so if it's-- if it's mostly a
matter of just not having the landscaping area to
plant, although you did point out one area that could
increase the landscaping.
MR. SABO: Correct.
MAYOR WATERMAN: I don't know whether that
would increase it the whole 1,000 feet; that is looking
from the conformity but, particularly, because this is
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where it is, this business located along a major
corridor, leading right up into the downtown civic
campus area. I think whereas in some instances we do
grant variances where it becomes difficult to just
logistically to plant, in this case, it's not. And I
would like to see a closer adherence to the
landscaping, given the particular location and the fact
that this is the avenue where there is -- Pontiac is on
showcase and, certainly, the transit hub as it is
perceived for future times. So I think we should
adhere more closely to our conformity in this case.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mayor.
Commissioner Parlove, please.
MS. PARLOVE: I agree with everything the
Mayor has said. I think it's a critical time right
now, especially in that location with M-1 breaking
ground in just a couple weeks, finally -- yeah about
that -- and then the carwash right next door, which is
certainly presenting itself very well.
I think it is critical that this business
also be in harmony with what's going on and because
it's such a sea of asphalt there, I think it's just
that much more important that we get something that's a
softer surface, meaning the landscape in that treelawn,
right there, if it's something that's low, that's
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great. You know, there's always the potential to open
up some of that asphalt, if need be, not that he needs
to do that for -- necessarily but that's an option.
Just because there's asphalt there doesn't prohibit
things from being planted.
The other thing that I noticed, which is part
of what I mentioned earlier is the side of his
building, if you can put up one of the pictures there
where you get the -- either the the gable there.
Both the north and south gables that are brown wood,
they're looking pretty shoddy. They need some
attention and if --
MR. SABO: Okay.
MS. PARLOVE: we can get something done
those at this point in time? They need paint. They
need repair, for sure. And other than that, I don't
have any questions.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you.
Commissioner Payne, please.
MS. PAYNE: Well, first of all, to the
applicant, best wishes to his family and a speedy
recovery. I, too, had concerns about it just seems
like there's just a lot of pavement going on there.
And I -- are those trees the property line; is that
does that serve --
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MR. SABO: Correct.
MS. PAYNE: -- as the property line?
MR. SABO: That's the
MS. PAYNE: And --
MR. SABO: You can see the change in asphalt
there.
MS. PAYNE: Really. Because coming out of
there, I'm wondering, you know, sometimes when you're
looking in there, are these two of the same businesses,
the carwash and -- but it really needs something there
to divide that and those trees coming out a little bit
further toward the street to help to break up that
it's just too much asphalt, you know. So that would be
my concern.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MS. PAYNE: Because it does represent --
THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Fegley,
please.
MS. FEGLEY: So, James, right now, they have
1,152 square feet of landscaping and they need 1,346?
MR. SABO: Right, they're 194 square feet
short.
MS. FEGLEY: Now, is that including all the
grass areas in that 1,152?
MR. SABO: Correct, correct.
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MS. FEGLEY: Okay. So they would, in order
to meet that requirement, have to remove some of the
pavement, then?
MR. SABO: Correct.
MS. FEGLEY: I guess I -- I don't really --
what's there is mostly grass. I would be willing to
reduce the requirement if what is there is dressed up
with more plant -- planting material, perennial flowers
or something, to dress up the front of that. And five
street trees is a lot to try and fit in that one little
patch.
MR. SABO: Yeah.
MS. FEGLEY: I would be willing to reduce it
maybe by one. But other than that, and maybe, you
know, give and take, if they're willing to landscape
and do, like Mona said, fix the gables on the building
and do a little bit of repair to freshen up the facade,
I would not have a problem with reducing the street
trees by maybe one and reducing the landscape
requirements.
MR. SABO: Okay.
MS. FEGLEY: As long as more --more plants
are planted within the grass area.
MR. SABO: Right. I agree.
MS. FEGLEY: And those are just my thoughts.
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THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I agree with the
Mayor and with Mona and Commissioner Parlove, as I'm
referring to the proper last name.
But a gateway into Pontiac. But I am
pleasantly not surprised but I am pleased that, for an
automotive commercial, you know, from what is now an
auto repair but is looking for an auto sales, then
moving to a carwash and then moving to a tire store,
they're pretty well maintained so that's a pleasant
you know, that's the good good news in my mind.
But it is a sea of asphalt and it melds one
to another. I don't know that -- unfortunately,
they're not here to talk about it. It would be
interesting if there could be some sort of curbing,
dividing in between, but I'm not going to dictate on
that.
My only comment would be with regard to the
frontage, you know, moving to the west side toward the
cars, between the walk and the cars, you know, some low
profile shrubs.
And then, on the right-of-way -- if you go
back to that previous photo. And then on the
right-of-way, you know, they could do some smart
ornamental trees in there that don't obstruct the site
from a sales perspective but add some -- you know, they
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could be -- you know, there's flowering -- and again,
I'm not dictating but it's just there are flowering
fruit trees now that don't produce fruit. So you don't
have the mess of fruit falling down but they produce a
nice -- you know, and they're kind of semi dwarf so
they don't grow huge and what have you.
So, again, they're not here, we can't
dialogue that with them. So I would trust that to you
for your, you know, discussion with them. But it is
kind of -- and my last statement is, for an auto
commercial centric strip there, from their business to
the auto wash to the tire store, they're really quite
well maintained from litter and that perspective.
So those are my comments. Any further
comments before we go to a motion?
MR. NORTHCROSS: Let me just say that --
THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I'm sorry.
MR. NORTHCROSS: I guess the question I would
have is, if we do require the addition of landscape
area, do we also specify where that addition of
landscape area should occur? Thinking that he has,
really, four sides or three sides that he could put
landscape, landscaping on.
But I'm sensing our requirement is more
toward the esthetic value that one would pick up
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driving along Woodward, that if we were to landscape,
we would want it along the front of his building. We
would want it along the front of his building. And I
don't know about just tearing up asphalt to do that.
If there would be some compromise that could occur that
could, one, give that boost in esthetics that we're
looking for but, at the same time, if he has to tear up
asphalt, I guess. I'm not sure.
I've seen that facility there for so long
that I welcome fresh eyes to point out these additional
things that can occur.
At the same time, I'm saying, "Hmm. Yeah,
that has been a pretty well-maintained area there.''
And if we are asking for additional landscaping or some
other changes, I think, the more specific we can be,
the better for everyone involved. And -- and maybe
there's some options they can give us that boost that
we want in appearance.
know --
line.
MR. SABO: Sure.
MR. NORTHCROSS: And at the same time, you
MR. SABO: Yeah, we can -- we can --
MR. NORTHCROSS: keep the costs within
MR. SABO: Absolutely. We can work on that.
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Mr. Chairman, it is public hearing.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yeah, let's hear from the
public.
Okay. Public hearing is open.
MR. SABO: All right. Just during the public
hearing, if I can mention the State of Michigan
requires him to either contract for an automobile
mechanic within ten miles or to have one on site. And
he told me that he was able to hire a Pontiac resident
for that mechanic position and he's currently on staff
now.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So public hearing is
closed. A formality but it is what it is. Any further
comments or questions?
It is a little difficult without the
petitioner being here but it is what it is.
MS. PARLOVE: I have something -- I have two
things. It was noted in our packet about the parking
under -- there was letter A and then letter B setbacks.
It mentions here display vehicles must be organized,
must meet the retail auto sales display area minimum
setback. Is that that something that's already
incorporated into what this gentleman will be doing
based on the rendering that was given to us --
MR. SABO: Correct.
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MS. PARLOVE: -- with the --
MR. SABO: Correct.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay. I just wanted to make
sure that was part of it. The other thing is, looking
at this aerial, he's got the gravel that he's going to
be paving over. Can he not necessarily pave over part
of the gravel and that can then take some of the
landscape that's required?
MR. SABO: That's possible. The landscapes
are in the front and side yard and that really is
behind the building facade so that's really kind of the
rear yard.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay.
MR. SABO: So I mean, I can -- I can talk to
him.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay.
MR. SABO: But the engineer wants it paved.
MS. PARLOVE: All of it?
MR. SABO: Yeah.
MS. PARLOVE: We need some asphalt there. We
don't have enough.
MR. SABO: I'm not the engineer.
MS. PARLOVE: I'm just saying. Okay.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Any further comments
or questions?
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May we have a motion, please?
MS. PARLOVE: Okay. I'll make a motion to
approve the special exception permit and site plan
review for 45905 Woodward Avenue PF-15-37, Capital Auto
Sales, Incorporated, subject to the following
conditions listed:
In accordance with Section 4.413, Planning
Commission modification of Section 4.404 general site
landscaping to maintain the materials, landscape
materials, to 1,346 square feet; compliance with
Section 4.305 standards for double striping; compliance
with Section 4.407, street frontage trees, landscaping
for four additional trees; compliance with Section
4.408, service area screening requirements for dumpster
enclosure screening; compliance with Engineering
Department for paving of gravel lot portion of site;
and compliance with all building code, fire code and
City of Pontiac business licensing requirements.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. May we have a
second?
MS. FEGLEY: With that motion, then, that's
going to increase the soft scape to 200 square feet,
then, so he'd have to remove some of the asphalt.
MR. SABO: Yeah. With that motion, he has to
remove asphalt.
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MS. PARLOVE: Or not pave over all the
gravel?
MR. SABO: Well, yeah, I imagine. I don't
know how close the gravel is.
MS. PARLOVE: I mean, when you look at the
aerial, there's green -- there's grass right by that
gravel.
THE CHAIRPERSON: It looks like we're back to
this other -- no, that other -- back. Right there.
MS. PARLOVE: It's hard to see.
THE CHAIRPERSON: It looks like it's starting
about right there.
MS. CADD: Yeah, I've seen the U-Hauls there.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Right.
MR. NORTHCROSS: In fact, the aerial view
might be a better shot, going back to the original
aerial view.
MS. FEGLEY: Does he want to park cars there;
is that why the engineer told him it had to be paved?
MR. SABO: Yes.
MS. FEGLEY: Hmm.
MR. SABO: But he
MS. PARLOVE: There it is. See where -- to
the north side of the yellow line there, you know,
there's that grass right there. If there's a tree line
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that's extended back, it doesn't have to be super wide,
he still could park cars there.
MR. SABO: Okay. So you're saying to leave
the other -- the other 200 square feet open here and
just increase landscaping there?
MS. PARLOVE: Sure.
MR. SABO: Okay.
MS. PARLOVE: That would be easiest for him.
MR. SABO: Just clarifying.
MS. PARLOVE: It accomplishes the
requirement.
MS. CADD: Out front.
MS. PAYNE: What's that related view, would
that show up for passing cars?
MS. PARLOVE: Well, it will still soften the
space. I mean, he's struggling to work with what he
has there. And if there's trees in the front, which is
the ideal location for them, for whatever else he needs
to comply with, he can put it off to the side and he
meets the requirements.
then.
as much.
He doesn't have to break up his asphalt,
MR. SABO: Yeah. And he doesn't have to pave
MS. PARLOVE: Right.
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MS. FEGLEY: Second?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Second?
MR. NORTHCROSS: Second.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So we have a move
and a second. Any further comments or question before
we go to roll call?
Mr. Sabo, roll call, please.
MR. SABO: Commissioner Parlove?
MS. PARLOVE: Yes.
MR. SABO: Commissioner Fegley?
MS. FEGLEY: Yes.
MR. SABO: Commissioner Cadd?
MS. CADD: Yes.
MR. SABO: Mayor Waterman?
MAYOR WATERMAN: Yes.
MR. SABO: Commissioner Payne?
MS. PAYNE: Yes.
MR. SABO: Commissioner Northcross?
MR. NORTHCROSS: Yes.
MR. SABO: Chairman Thomas?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR. SABO: Motion carries unanimously. I
will convey congratulations.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Congratulations.
Okay. That takes care of the formal agenda or the
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petitions.
MR. SABO: Well, the applicants. We still
have public hearing.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Public hearing. We have
new business.
MR. SABO: New business. But it is a public
hearing.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, public hearing. Okay,
okay. I'm sorry. Thanks. So we have new business.
Mr. Sabo, I guess you probably want to --
MR. SABO: Sure, I will. Okay. In your
packets was a report from me. Mayor and City Council
have been working on ways to potentially regulate the
sale of packaged alcoholic beverages in the City.
October 16th, 2014 was a date that the
proposed ordinance text is related to an enforcement
case we had. It was decided by the Court, the City
prevailed in that case.
City Administrator, as well, requested that
the ordinance text reflect that date for future
enforcement efforts. And the City Counsel requested
the Planning Commission to schedule the public hearing
to review recommended -- to review and recommend text
language for them.
The recommendation here is -- excuse me -- to
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hold public hearing for the ordinance text amendments
and they are here. It's Section 2.515, retail packaged
alcoholic beverage sales. And this is related to some
of the new party store or liquor/lotto stores that we
get; they have to meet this requirement. Many of them
cannot. The one that Commissioner Parlove was
specifically involved with, as a citizen, was
154 South Telegraph. And that was the case that the
City prevailed.
So this is the standard language A, B and C.
These are no more than two properties within a mile, it
can't be within 500 feet of a school or a playground, a
church. There's an exception for businesses that are
over 10,000 square feet. That is the Walgreen,
CVS-type, small grocery store, Spartan store-type
establishments. And then this is the new language in
bold.
Letter D, retail alcoholic beverage sales,
businesses that existed on there before October 16th.
We continue to operate legally subject to these
conditions.
All businesses shall possess a valid
Certificate of Occupancy from the City to operate a
business that was effective on or before October 16th,
2014, a valid, specially-designated merchant or
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specially-designated distributor license from the State
of Michigan, LCC, via the Liquor Control Commission,
with that same October date.
All such retail alcoholic beverage sales
required to obtain a City of Pontiac business license.
All such sales, businesses required to pay the City of
Pontiac income taxes in accordance with Public Act 284
of 1964 and Municipal Code, Chapter 110.
Failure to meet these conditions shall result
in municipal code enforcement action.
And that is the proposed text -- that is
what -- just a point of clarification to the Planning
Commission. That is what we wrote up. That is what
was noticed in the public notice and, if it changes,
which is possible, if you want to change it, if you
have suggestions, that's fine, then we have to
re-notice it and have a different public hearing.
Because this is the language that was -- was in the
public notice.
So it's not a problem but we just have to--
we'd have to do this again.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Any comments or
question before we go to public hearing?
MS. PAYNE: I have one. A question in
regards to the display of signage. Some of the
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signage, like the beer signs, are extremely large, also
displays of cars and horses and things like that, that
would get the attention of young people who are under
age, to come in and to buy alcohol?
I mean --
MR. SABO: Help me with your question. I'm
trying to
MS. PAYNE: Would we be able to add that in
there about the large -- the large signs that are put
throughout the City here?
MR. SABO: Oh.
MS. PAYNE: And -- and not only that, display
of cars that have the big beer signs and the Jeeps and
the --
MR. SABO: I know.
MS. PAYNE: And the horses and--
MR. SABO: Understood. I'm going to --
Commissioner Payne, if I can, I'm going to defer to
Mr. Bowdell for a moment because we have specific
regulations in the sign ordinance already related to
what I think you're talking about.
And Mr. Bowdell, can you elaborate a little
bit, please.
MR. BOWDELL: I believe what you're referring
to are -- or what you're seeing are properties that
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need enforcement action taken on them. There are
regulations on square footage of any wall sign and
window signs, which I'm assuming that's what you're
referring to.
MS. PAYNE: Yes.
MR. BOWDELL: Which are limited in the sign
ordinance to 25 percent of a window. So anything that
exceeds that, they're in violation. As it relates to
the automobile signs, to my knowledge, I don't know
anything in the ordinance that regulates that, except
that the commercial vehicles cannot be stored on -- on
a normal local business parking lot.
So if it's just a car with a sign on it that
they drive in every day and then drive out and park it
somewhere else at night, that would-- it's just
essentially, it's a vehicle. However, to me, it sounds
like what you're referring to are things that need code
enforcement action taken on, not necessarily tied into
this ordinance.
MS. PAYNE: Okay.
MR. SABO: Thank you, Mr. Bowdell. We do
have ordinances in place to limit signs. Forman Mills,
the new Forman Mills store got approval for a -- the
large sign on the top of the building; they had
approval for that. They're temporary signs, their
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grand opening events, things of that nature. But we
don't have any specific regulations to know what kind
of signs they are or -- so I don't know if that answers
your question
MS. PAYNE: Okay.
MR. SABO: or not.
MS. PAYNE: I think so.
MS. CADD: I think the question Ms. Payne's
asking is kind of what the liquor distributors have
for, like, co-op advertising, where they'll have, like,
a car out there that has a giant six pack on it or
something and it sits there for a week. Is that
considered, like, temporary advertising or --
MR. SABO: That --
MS. CADD: They'll have Clydesdale ponies
with, you know, their beers and --
MR. SABO: Those are -- those are illegal
signs, generally. So it's an enforcement issue with
respect to those signs. So if there is -- if you call
our department and you see a car with a big six pack on
it or something like that, we can send Code Enforcement
officers to address that.
The issue we run into with Code
Enforcement -- and this is just the nature of this
particular issue -- is some of the cat and mouse-type
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of issues. So we go out, we tell somebody they can't
park their vehicle there, they move it and then they're
instantly in compliance. And then we're on to the next
issue and, two weeks later, they park it again and it's
there and we get information about it and we go back
and they move it again. So it's -- it's a challenge,
no doubt, but we -- we do our best to stay on top of
that stuff.
MS. PAYNE: Thank you.
MS. PARLOVE: I have a question.
Is this -- is this the public hearing on this
right now?
MR. SABO: Did you open --
THE CHAIRPERSON: I haven't opened it yet.
MS. PARLOVE: But this is the day to talk
about this?
MR. SABO: This is the day to talk about it.
MS. PARLOVE: This is the public is supposed
to be here inputting?
MR. SABO: Correct.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay. Thank you for that
clarification. I -- because this is such a near and
dear situation to me, when I was finding that my
neighbors were supporting the lack of desire to have an
additional packaged liquor store -- or packaged liquor
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seller in the neighborhood, the thing that we carne
across was Item B and Item C regarding no more than two
properties within a mile of another business trying to
be this type of an establishment.
But, more importantly, C became a big issue
for us when we ran into both a Rite Aid and a
Walgreen's that were right across the street from each
other and well within a mile, they were within a
quarter mile of what this attempted business was trying
to do but they're excluded.
So they're selling but they don't have to
comply; and I take exception to that. I don't
understand why they don't have to comply as part of
this model.
And then, also, what we were experiencing
was, within a mile of this Petitioner's request to
start his business or sell that, sell the product from
his business, we were within a mile of packaged liquor
sales outside of our community, within striking
distance, specifically within Waterford.
So this doesn't specifically account for that
and I think those are critical items as we move forth
because we're going to be going through this again.
Even though someone needs to have a
Certificate of Occupancy and whatever, I mean, that's
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helpful but it doesn't really get to the heart of the
problem here of having too many of these businesses
coming into the community where it's oversaturation.
So I want to address these items, if we can.
MR. SABO: Is that a question?
MS. PARLOVE: Can we do that?
MR. SABO: Yes.
MS. PARLOVE: Is that something we do today
or do we kick it back again?
MR. SABO: Well, if you're going to change C,
we have to re-notice and have a different public
hearing. But let me explain, if I can, C.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay.
MR. SABO: I don't know how come C, the
letter C, is in there. And just so people understand
what letter C is, retail packaged alcoholic beverage
sales within a grocery store or pharmacy with a usable
area of no less than 10,000 square feet, within which
no more than 20 percent of that area is devoted to
display, storage or sale of packaged alcoholic
beverages are exempted from the one-mile requirement
and the-- nobody's exempt from the State requirements,
which is A.
But I don't know how come that got in there
or why it is in there but it's -- it's related to, like
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you said, CVS, Walgreen.
MS. PARLOVE: Uh-huh.
MR. SABO: Rite Aid.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, it exists. I mean,
not that it's right or wrong or good or bad.
MR. SABO: Right.
THE CHAIRPERSON: But those full-line
retailers are selling, you know, a variety of products
and, oh, by the way, we're also selling liquor, beer
and wine. And then you have the individual liquor
store that is basically-- well, not basically; that's
what they're in business for is. So it's a
complication, it does -- in a sense it over in a
sense, it -- the regulation over -- allows them to
overpopulate
MS. PARLOVE: Exactly.
THE CHAIRPERSON: -- selling beer, wine and
liquor.
MS. PARLOVE: Exactly.
THE CHAIRPERSON: So I don't know where we go
with that.
MR. SABO: Well, here. I can tell you what
we've experienced since 2011 with all of these -- these
issues.
And this particular ordinance was put in
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place in early 2000s and because of the one-mile
restriction, we haven't had any new approved retail
alcoholic beverage sales because, pretty much, no
property in the City can meet this one-mile
requirement. This, the one that the City prevailed in
court, did not meet it and we did -- we did use the
Waterford location on Voorheis, that was included in
the calculation --
MS. PARLOVE: Okay.
MR. SABO: outside the City.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay.
MR. SABO: We excluded Rite Aid and Walgreen,
obviously, because of letter C. But it still didn't
meet that requirement.
The issue we have is some of the licenses
that are in place or licenses that exist have a legal
right to exist. So the party store up on Walton and
Joslyn has a a valid existing license. And the --
the Michigan State Supreme Court tackled this issue and
is very specific about the legal nonconforming uses and
existing nonconforming uses and, specifically, related
to abandonment of a use. Okay?
So if you have a liquor license at a store
and the store is closed for two years, three years, but
you maintain that license, that license is valid, it's
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paid for, it exists and you are not in that store and
the store is just closed, you didn't tear down the
store, it just happens to be closed, you can open again
in that location.
MS. PARLOVE: Right.
MR. SABO: Legally.
MS. PARLOVE: Right.
MR. SABO: Based on the State Supreme Court's
decision of what an abandonment of a use is.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay.
MR. SABO: Now, if you have that license and
you raze the store --
MS. PARLOVE: Right.
MR. SABO: tear it down --
MS. PARLOVE: Right.
MR. SABO: now the establishment doesn't
exist anymore, that constitutes abandonment of use,
similar to the Clark station here at the end of City
Hall's driveway.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay.
MR. SABO: Had the Clark station never torn
down the pumps, removed the pumps, removed the building
and they just left them there and they were growing
weeds, they could have eventually opened again.
MS. PARLOVE: Sure.
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MR. SABO: As a gas station.
MS. PARLOVE: Sure.
MR. SABO: Because they didn't abandon that
use.
MS. PARLOVE: Right.
MR. SABO: But, since they tore all the pumps
down.
MS. PARLOVE: Right.
MR. SABO: So does that help explain?
MS. PARLOVE: It does. But --
MR. SABO: It doesn't make it easier to deal
with.
MS. PARLOVE: Right.
MR. SABO: But we have to operate within the
parameters of the courts and the law so --
MS. PARLOVE: Sure. For example, one of the
things that we were concerned about is, there is an
establishment within close proximity to where this
Petitioner, at the time, wanted to open his business or
run his business, as he was hoping to. And there were
things that made us wonder, if that store closed, if
they were told to close because they were not operating
as they should and that store would no longer be in
business for whatever time and this particular
Petitioner found that he was now within compliance,
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geographically, within that one mile and the two
businesses that were no longer selling packaged liquor
or packaged beer and wine and that store then reopened
six months or 12 months down the road, they still had
the capacity to do it because they were not an
abandonment but they were not in business.
So here's someone that has, just by a chance
of how things worked out, an opportunity to open a
business and now we're oversaturated again.
We're still dealing with the situation of
this, you know, Rite Aid bigger retailer, not that they
shouldn't be selling beer and wine but I think that
I would prefer that we tighten up this verbiage and
make it crystal clear that it's not going to be any
more than two properties within a mile and I don't
think that these should be excluded. And I think it
also needs to be important that we delineate that other
communities are incorporated within that radius of the
mile and I'd like to see that written in here.
MR. SABO: Well, that's -- outside the
community is already in here just because of the way
it's written.
MS. PARLOVE: Just because it doesn't say?
MR. SABO: Just because it's not, right.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay. All right.
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don't -- I still don't see why the bigger retailer gets
a special pass.
MR. SABO: No, I understand.
MS. CADD: Because that's not their
primary
MS. PARLOVE: Right. That's just like an,
oh, by the way and then the effect.
MR. SABO: Right. Well, that's -- it's up to
you guys.
MS. FEGLEY: The only thing I can say is if a
Kroger ever wanted to come to Pontiac and they wanted
to pick a location that was within a mile of an
existing liquor store and, without this exception, they
would not be able --
MS. PARLOVE: I see what you're saying.
MS. FEGLEY: to have wine or beer and they
might say, ''Well, we're not going to open because that
might -- although that's not our major income, it still
is five to ten percent.'' And--
MS. PARLOVE: I understand.
MS. FEGLEY: I think that's why that
exception is there.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yeah, that's exactly why.
And I think, of course, you know, rules are written
and, you know, whether it's policed or whatever.
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the rules are written and then there's the
interpretation. So, you know, I mean, ultimately, I
mean, we've been successful -- I mean, I do see the
difference between two different businesses, they -- in
my mind, I think that this says, if it's Bob's Party
Store and Bill's Party Store and they can't be within
one mile of each other, right?
MR. SABO: New ones.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. New ones. Well, I
mean, if Bill's is already there and Bob's is proposing
to be there --
MR. SABO: Correct.
THE CHAIRPERSON: they have to be at least
a mile apart?
MR. SABO: Correct.
THE CHAIRPERSON: And so I concur with you
with regard to, you know, Kroger or, you know,
Central Market or --
MR. SABO: Trader Joe's.
THE CHAIRPERSON: -- you know, Trader Joe's
or what have you, they're a different business, it's a
different business model and -- and, you know, they're
really not competing against a liquor store on average.
I mean, you know, they both come with a
different model. So I think we have to address
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my mind, I think we have to address the two entities.
We're delineating the two liquor stores. That, to be
honest, that's kind of where the problematic issue
falls, and it's not with the big box retailers.
So I -- personally, and just personally, I
don't have a problem with the language. Because,
ultimately, they're going to have to appear before us
anyway, right?
MR. SABO: (Nods head.)
THE CHAIRPERSON: So that's just my thoughts,
for whatever it's worth.
MS. PAYNE: And they may sell liquor but
they're not advertising as liquor, they're advertising
as a drugstore.
MS. PARLOVE: No, I understand all that. I
understand all that. It's just how-- how it all
played out geographically, it was it was the
potential was there for something to come in and then,
all of a sudden, that preexisting could start up a
business -- start up again and now we've got more than
what we need in that general vicinity.
And so this doesn't the way it's written,
it doesn't really address how we deal with that because
these people are grandfathered in, so to speak, they're
already-- they're operating and they continue to do
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so, which, you know, makes sense. It's just -- it's
a -- it's a challenge to try and figure out the right
thing to do.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mayor, please.
MAYOR WATERMAN: Yes. I know that there are
peculiar situations and sometimes you can't -- as
tightly as you try to write something, you can't guard
against every possible procured set of circumstances
that happen. And that's what you're talking about.
But I know the -- this has -- particular item
has been addressed for quite a long time with the
Council's Subcommittee on Community Development who
have worked with this. And one of the things that
we're confronted with was that the State of Michigan
Liquor Control Commission changed their rules.
MR. SABO: That's right.
MAYOR WATERMAN: Instead, they used to come
to the cities and, remember, so many liquor licenses
granted in the cities. That changed over the last
couple years. And so now participants can just go and
get their liquor licenses from the State of Michigan
without any review of what the particular
municipality's zoning ordinance are.
So we get that secondhand and we're kind of
reacting to the fact that there had been that change in
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120
the State way of handling these licenses.
So I think the subcommittee wrestled with
this for quite some time and came up with something
that they thought was -- conveyed the spirit of what we
wanted in the community. And the ideas that we
didn't we wanted to discourage the density of purely
packaged liquor sales but we didn't want to discourage
the density of other kinds of businesses in which maybe
they happen to have packages sales as a part, a
component.
And that's something that we thought that
this and Item C best represents the way to control
that. Even though we know there may be exceptions,
there may be exceptions within that particular
situation that you can't foresee and because of the
fact the way the laws are written, you really can't
guard against everyone else.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay.
MAYOR WATERMAN: But this is the best
solution, given the fact of the laws, the harmony with
what the Michigan State Liquor Control Commission is
doing as well as the fact that we do have some
grandfathered liquor licenses in and still wanting to,
you know, have the -- particularly the areas that abut
our communities and neighborhoods, to have this density
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of this packaged liquor license --
MS. PARLOVE: Sure. That makes sense.
MR. SABO: Do you want to -- I know
there's
MS. PAYNE: Open.
MR. SABO: Yeah, open the public hearing.
THE CHAIRPERSON: The public hearing is open.
And public hearing is closed.
Okay. Further comments, questions?
MS. CADD: Right here.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Or -- yes?
MS. CADD: I would just like a clarification
because I can see where that's going to impact where I
live, off of Baldwin. I have a question. Like,
Big Daddy's has been there forever. If he was to sell
or whatever, would the next party be able to keep that
liquor license and operate
MR. SABO: Yes.
MS. CADD: -- without any problem?
MR. SABO: Correct.
MS. CADD: Because there's a church right
across the street.
MR. SABO: That's correct.
MS. CADD: And then we have Jalapeno's that
serves liquor with their restaurant and we have
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Safe Plus and
THE CHAIRPERSON: But Jalapeno's, that not
packaged liquor.
MR. SABO: Correct.
MS. CADD: No, it's not packaged but it's
liquor.
MS. PAYNE: That's a restaurant.
MR. SABO: Right.
THE CHAIRPERSON: That's a different
MR. SABO: Right, restaurants are.
MS. CADD: Are exempt?
MR. SABO: Not exempt. They're not the same.
MS. CADD: Okay. And my other question is
this: Right on the corner of Kennett and Baldwin,
there used to be the Ventura Bar and it was bought at
an auction for 30,000 last year and I believe those
people -- I don't know if they're going to try to bring
it as a bar or a restaurant, and that's right across
the street from the same church. So they would be
unable to, with this, unless it was a restaurant,
correct?
MR. SABO: If it's a restaurant, they're
okay. If it's a party store -- I don't know the
answer, I'd have to find out more.
MS. CADD: So if it was a restaurant, they're
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okay?
MR. SABO: A restaurant, they're okay.
MS. CADD: Okay. Because we're overly
invaded with liquor.
MR. SABO: Yeah.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Further questions or
comments?
Okay. May we have a motion?
MS. CADD: Oh, I do have one other question.
It's kind of off the beaten track here.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MS. CADD: We're bringing this up with
packaged liquors. Is this going to come before us when
marijuana is legal?
MR. SABO: I cannot answer that question. I
have no idea.
THE CHAIRPERSON: What time is it? That
sounds like a question for another --
MS. CADD: I was just curious.
MR. SABO: I can tell you what the approach
to the City is. Our ordinance prohibits anything that
is federally illegal.
next year.
MS. CADD: They expect that to change in the
MR. SABO: That's very possible.
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MS. CADD: Yeah.
MR. SABO: I have no idea what's going to
happen with that --
MS. CADD: Okay. Just curious.
MR. SABO: -- those decisions.
MS. CADD: That was it.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Here we go again.
Any further comments or questions?
Okay. May we have a motion, please?
MS. PARLOVE: I will make the motion, then.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MS. PARLOVE: Where is our motion on here?
MR. SABO: I'm sorry.
MS. PARLOVE: Under Recommendation?
MR. SABO: It's to recommend to the Mayor and
City Council the proposed ordinance changes to Section
2.515 of the zoning ordinance.
MS. PARLOVE: Okay. So the motion is to
recommend to the Mayor and City Council for their
consideration, the proposed changes to Ordinance 2.515.
support.
MR. SABO: Correct.
MR. NORTHCROSS: Support.
MS. PARLOVE: See the attached text language.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. We have a move and
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MR. NORTHCROSS: Support.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Any further comments or
questions before we go to roll call?
Okay. Mr. Sabo, roll call, please.
MR. SABO: Commissioner Parlove?
MS. PARLOVE: Yes.
MR. SABO: Commissioner Northcross?
MR. NORTHCROSS: Yes.
MR. SABO: Mayor Waterman?
MAYOR WATERMAN: Yes.
MR. SABO: Commissioner Payne?
MS. PAYNE: Yes.
MR. SABO: Commissioner Cadd?
MS. CADD: Yes.
MR. SABO: Commissioner Fegley?
MS. FEGLEY: Yes.
MR. SABO: Chairman Thomas?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR. SABO: Motion carries unanimously.
have nothing further.
business?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Any unfinished
Any other items?
MS. CADD: I have one.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Go ahead.
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MS. CADD: I'll be very quick. I just wanted
to say the potholes that have finally been corrected on
Hollywood and Tennyson.
THE CHAIRPERSON: That's a sink hole, not a
pothole.
MS. CADD: Sink holes, three of them. There
was one
THE CHAIRPERSON: Did they lose any houses in
that thing?
MS. CADD: No, but it was almost big enough
to lose a car or a couple of kids. So I wanted to say
thanks.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Good. Okay. Anyone else,
any --
MR. NORTHCROSS: And if I may quickly, if
it's not too much of a change in procedure process, if
you could send out my package as a PDF file as opposed
to on paper, I would request that.
MR. BOWDELL: I normally, we could and we
can do -- definitely have the reports. Any of the
renderings, they come in all different sizes and it's
sort of impossible besides sending multiple attachments
to actually scan a PDF of the entire packet, due to
the --mainly the renderings.
MR. NORTHCROSS: Would it be possible ~o use
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maybe a cloud site that would have access and just go
in that way?
MR. BOWDELL: I
MR. NORTHCROSS: Could you put things up on
the cloud?
MR. BOWDELL: I'm not familiar with that. I
don't know. It's possible.
MR. NORTHCROSS: Something like a One Drive
or a Google Drive or whatever you call it or a Drop Box
or something and go in that way?
MR. SABO: I'll tell you what. We can--
we'll do what we can. We certainly don't want to use
any more paper or cause any more issues to the
environment. So we-- we'll--
MR. NORTHCROSS: Yeah.
MR. SABO: Why don't you
MR. NORTHCROSS: I tend to use I just tend
to use an HDMI device and go in and look at it on my TV
screen
MR. SABO: Sure.
MR. NORTHCROSS: -- which is much larger --
MR. SABO: Yes.
MR. NORTHCROSS: than my actual monitor at
home and it actually eases my eyes.
MR. SABO: I would imagine.
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MR. NORTHCROSS: Have a little mercy on this
old guy. So if it's not too much out of the way, you
know, just go in and create those files maybe using
some type of cloud storage device that has limited
access.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Just to make headway, for
whatever it's worth, I should cast my vote for still
hard package. That doesn't mean you can't but
MS. PAYNE: Second.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Public comments.
I'd like to make a comment and I'll do this
while we don't have too many meetings now before
July 25th. But on July 25th, we are having a vacant
land fair. They are -- roughly speaking, these are not
houses, these are vacant parcels. There are, roughly
speaking, about 1,000 parcels in the City and, you
know, we're looking for buyers. This will be July the
25th. It's going to be at Goldner Walsh. Time is
likely to be in the morning. We haven't quite set that
yet. Commissioner Parlove is a part of this as is
Commissioner Payne. Mayor certainly is involved as
well and so is Commissioner Northcross.
So anyways, you know, there are any number of
ways to re-purpose, it could be a nursery, you know, it
could be a flower plot, you know, it could be an
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orchard, it could be a tree stand. You're only limited
by creativity but these are extraordinarily affordable
City parcels that need new owners. So please, kind of
to the public, please keep that in mind, July 25th.
We're going to have an announcement here in the paper
real soon so-- and we'll keep you posted. But,
anyway, I wanted to make that public comment.
MS. CADD: Are these non-buildable parcels?
THE CHAIRPERSON: No, they're vacant parcels.
MS. CADD: They don't limit the size?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, they're vacant
inasmuch as more than likely, more often than not,
their houses were demolished and they just stand
vacant.
MS. CADD: Is there a list of those
addresses? Because I know there's ones right by me.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, there will be.
MS. CADD: Okay.
THE CHAIRPERSON: But that's what the vacant
land fair is for. I mean, if you're looking for
anything in advance, Garland Doyle is your contact
point. But, for the people up there, if they're
interested in contacting Garland Doyle prior to that
time, they're welcome to.
And so let me know. This vacant land fair is
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set up to facilitate and help people identify the
parcel number on the map, give them the tax overview,
tell them how to go about buying and what they can
re-purpose it for, basically nonstop answer their
questions there.
Whereas if -- if you start to go to Garland,
it's going to be kind of a you know, kind of a
question and answer scenario.
MS. CADD: Do you know the starting price or,
like, if you purchase it within a
THE CHAIRPERSON: No, I don't. Just
extraordinarily affordable.
MS. CADD: -- what the taxable value will be?
THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, that's what this is
about.
MS. CADD: Okay.
THE CHAIRPERSON: We're going to have the
Oakland County Tax Unit there to answer those
questions. So if you see a parcel you like --
MS. CADD: July 25th?
THE CHAIRPERSON: -- then they're going to be
right there to answer that.
MS. CADD: Okay.
THE CHAIRPERSON: And that's why they're
setting it up, to answer all the questions.
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you know, no one single person has all the answers.
MS. CADD: Is that a weekend?
MS. PARLOVE: Saturday.
THE CHAIRPERSON: July the 25th is a
Saturday.
MS. CADD: Saturday. All day?
THE CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, no. I think
we're going to do it 9:00 to 12:00. And so we'll give
you more information as we go forward with it but I
wanted to mention that for the public and for this
Commission.
So anything further?
MAYOR WATERMAN: Thank you. I would like to
add comment to this meeting. One of the things is
that, as we talk about our packets, one of the things
I've asked in line with the City Council members have
asked, that they be apprised of the issues. So we're
going to make it a matter of course and I talked to
Gordon Bowdell about it today, about sending the
agendas to City Council members.
Of course, we don't have access right now,
the capacity, to do packets to everybody online. And
we do want this to be online so it's of ease of
transmission. But that way we'll acquaint all the City
Council members of the things that are happening in
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their districts and throughout the City.
And then there were a couple of just
announcements about things that have happened recently
that we can report on that this Commission has interest
in.
And one of those is that the economic
recovery plan that we've been working on with Oakland
County from the EDA grant now entitled Pontiac Moving
Forward which tells the theme of that particular plan
was submitted to the EDA by the deadline date, in fact,
a couple days early. So that is now a part of
Pontiac's recovery and a part of its revitalization.
So that will the link is available and it
will soon be available on the website as soon as
it's City Council has a chance to formally accept
it. So that has been something that has been long
coming. It establishes a number of principals about
Pontiac's redevelopment pillars of urban reorganization
and highlights some of the priority redevelopment areas
in the City of Pontiac.
So that's well worth reading for anybody
who's interested in any of those. And there's a way
for anybody who wants to participate in that
revitalization to have a part in that with all the
different strategic plans that are listed there.
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And also, this past week, as we've been
talking about, there is an adjunct of the master plan
steering committee, the advisory committee, that has
been working as their project's to benefit the City on
the vacant land campaign. And there was a State group
that came down to work on a day-long seminar and tours.
And they did submit their report about their thoughts
about the blight program as well as what happens
post-blight and that was how we want to get a good
forecast of the various ways that we can use these
vacant properties.
So I hope that will -- report will be used to
structure this vacant land fair that we're talking
about. Because we want to make sure that there are
certain parameters that, as we sell these lots, to make
sure that they get put in the hands that will develop
them in long ways, that will be in accordance with the
kinds of observations that were made as a part of the
study and that's being entertained by this group.
And I thank them for taking the --
undertaking this for the City and resulting in this
very comprehensive study.
Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Excellent. Well said.
Okay. Any further comments, questions?
Okay. May we have a motion for adjournment.
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1 MR. NORTHCROSS: So moved.
2 MS. CADD: Moved.
3 MR. NORTHCROSS: Support.
4 THE CHAIRPERSON: All in favor, ''aye''.
5 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you very much.
7 See you next month.
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(Meeting was concluded at 9:09p.m.)
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C E R T I F I C A T E
I, Mona Storm, do hereby certify that I have
recorded stenographically the proceedings had and
testimony taken in the meeting, at the time and place
hereinbefore set forth, and I do further certify that
the foregoing transcript, consisting of (134) pages, is
a true and correct transcript of my said stenographic
notes.
~ .. ::0$\~ Mona Storm CSR-4460
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