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1Preliminary matters

1 February 8, 20112 Vancouver, B.C.34 (DAY 31)5 (PROCEEDINGS COMMENCED AT 10:00 A.M.)67 THE CLERK: In the Supreme Court of British Columbia at8 Vancouver on this 8th day of February, 2011,9 regarding the matter concerning the

10 constitutionality of section 293 of the Criminal11 Code, My Lord.12 THE COURT: Counsel, I want to talk about argument13 because I know I had given you a heads up that I14 had some commitments in the second week. They're15 a bit longer than I realized and I'm getting a bit16 concerned about where we are.17 I have to be in Ottawa from April 5th to the18 8th. That's the Tuesday to the Friday inclusive.19 And as well I have a meeting I would like to make20 on April 14th. So have you given any idea, any21 further consideration to the actually number of22 days we're going to need?23 MR. JONES: We haven't had any all-participant24 discussions on topic, My Lord. I think we're25 probably looking at a written argument in the26 length of sort of 100 to 120 pages, perhaps a

27 little bit longer. We've been working quite28 closely with Canada to ensure that both the29 written and oral submissions aren't unnecessarily30 duplicative, so we are confident that we can split31 AG time between us. How long that is, I mean, I32 think we could probably do our oral submissions in33 two days if we needed to. We could also probably34 take three or four if it were available.35 Now, the 28th, is that a Thursday?36 THE COURT: No, March 28th is the Monday.37 MR. JONES: Okay.38 THE COURT: I'm here all that week and then I'm here on39 the Monday of the following week and then I'm away40 in Ottawa.41 MR. JONES: So we've got six days straight.42 THE COURT: We've got six days straight. So what I'm43 saying I guess we better block out those three44 weeks if we haven't already.45 MR. JONES: Yes, I think we've reserved them but we46 hadn't committed to them.47 THE COURT: Okay. So all I would ask -- there is the



2Brent Munro (for AGBC)In chief by Ms. Greathead

1 heads up, if you like, and if counsel could get2 together and try to figure out the best way of3 dividing up that time so that everyone -- no one4 is inconvenienced.5 MR. JONES: Thank you, My Lord.6 MR. DICKSON: So, My Lord, it sounds like we have ten7 days?8 THE COURT: Well, we have as many days as we need but9 it's just when.

10 MR. DICKSON: But on the three weeks we have blocked11 off.12 THE COURT: Yes, there's ten days in that three weeks.

13 MR. JONES: I'm sorry, I would have counted 11,14 My Lord, because we got one day in the second15 week.16 THE COURT: But not the 14th.17 MR. JONES: I see. I see.18 THE COURT: Not the 14th.19 MR. DICKSON: I would expect that that's going to be20 pretty close to what we need.21 THE COURT: Okay. I was just concerned about that22 third week and dividing you up into the four days.23 I know I've told you three days and then I24 realized it was actually four. Thank you. So25 we'll come back to this then. Maybe if we can do26 by memo.27 MR. JONES: Thank you, My Lord. We'll do that.28 THE COURT: Thank you. Ms. Greathead.29 MS. GREATHEAD: My Lord, the Attorney General is30 calling two witnesses today. And the first31 witness will be Mr. Brent Munro. And he's32 speaking to his affidavit, My Lord, which is33 affidavit Exhibit 17 in these proceedings.34 THE COURT: Thank you.35 Brent Munro, a witness,36 called by the AGBC, sworn.3738 THE CLERK: Please state your full name and state your39 last name for the record.40 THE WITNESS: Brent Douglas Munro M-u-n-r-o.41 THE COURT: Please have a seat, sir.42 MS. GREATHEAD: And I'm just going to give the witness43 a copy of his affidavit, My Lord.44 THE COURT: Thank you.4546 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MS. GREATHEAD:47 Q So, Mr. Munro can you just confirm that the




1 A Sure. It's a personal education number. Every2 student attending a BC school is assigned a number3 and it stays with them throughout their time in4 the education system. So through an early5 learning or K to 12 or public post secondary.6 It's a student identifier number.7 Q And where does the information come that makes up8 the individual student information on the9 database. Where does it come from?

10 A There's certain data collection points over the11 course of a year and we have a form 1701, it's an12 administrative form. And that information comes

13 in and it includes the student's personal14 education number, things like their name, birth15 date, gender, the school that they're at, their16 grade that they're in.17 Q And so is it the school or school districts that18 are collecting this information on the student and19 sending it to the Ministry?20 A That's correct. It comes in that way.21 Q Now, do you also obtain information on student22 achievement?23 A Yes, we do. We have standardized test information24 such as provincial examinations. That information25 is also provided to the Ministry and then sent26 through to my branch.27 Q Now, I think you mentioned that there were two28 data points for collection, September and29 February.30 A Yeah, September 30th has been the ongoing one and31 February 1st was added a few years ago. So those32 are the two points over the course of the year33 where schools will send in the form 1701. There34 is a third point that comes in May for continuing35 education centres and things like that.36 Q What's a continuing education centre?37 A That would be where students can go and take a38 course outside of what a normal school would be.39 Q So generally for the most part the school40 districts send information on students to the41 Ministry in September and February of each year?42 A That's correct.43 Q And how long has the Ministry been collecting data44 on the basis of a personal education number?45 A Since around 1991. That's when the personal46 education number came into effect.47 Q Now, I'm going to ask you -- I'm going to get into




1 more details and take you to your exhibits and get2 you to explain to His Lordship what the exhibits3 are about. But before I do that could you just4 explain in very brief, general terms how you use5 the database to gather information for the6 purposes of swearing your affidavit in these7 proceedings.8 A Sure. Well, we started by looking for students9 who had ever attended their Bountiful

10 Elementary-Secondary School or Mormon Hills and11 then once we had that list of students we then12 looked to see the grades they were in and some

13 graduation information.14 Q And when you were looking to see the grades that15 they were in, were you looking to see whether they16 were present in the educational system?17 A That's correct.18 Q And you also looked at information on graduation19 rates?20 A Yes.21 Q Now, I'm going to refer you to paragraphs 6 and 722 of your affidavit and Exhibit A in particular. So23 you see the heading there above paragraph 6 and 724 "Enrolment at Bountiful Elementary-Secondary25 School and Mormon Hills after Grade 8"?26 A Yes.27 Q And if I could have you turn to Exhibit A of your28 affidavit. Could you explain for the court what29 this exhibit is about and how you read it.30 A Sure. So what we started with for this one is31 looking at students who were enrolled at either of32 those two schools in their Grade 8 year and then33 we looked over the course of the next five years,34 so six years in total, to see if they were still35 in the education system in BC. So in any school,36 not just -- not necessarily Bountiful37 Elementary-Secondary or Mormon Hills. So just to38 use an example, go through the first line. The39 first column shows just -- it's the school code.40 Unique code assigned to the school. We have the41 name of the school and then we've got the school42 year that we're talking about. And then we have a43 breakdown for male, female and then a total, and44 then we're looking at some counts. So if we look45 at that first year in Grade 8 for that first line46 of Bountiful Elementary-Secondary in the 2004/200547 school year for females we see that there were




1 seven female students in Grade 8 for the first2 time in that year. If you go to year 2 you will3 see there's five and then year 3 there's -- we're4 back to six. Year 4 six and then the fifth year,5 we're at 1 and the sixth year we're at one.6 Q And over in the next set of columns?7 A The next set of columns is those numbers that we8 just went through reported as a percentage. So9 the first, the Grade 8 year, if we're starting

10 with 100 percent of the students and then we see11 how many are remaining in the system two, three,12 four, five and six years later. So the second

13 year we're down to 71 percent.14 Q And so if the student in the column that you did15 for us was in Grade 8 in the 2004/2005 school year16 and they completed each grade consecutively after17 that which of these columns represents when they18 would have completed year 12?19 A If they went lockstep through all the grades in20 progression that would be the fifth year.21 Q And why do you do it on six-year basis?22 A We included six years just to account for any sort23 of issues that come up in a system; scheduling of24 classes, courses, course availability. It's also25 a common measure that the Ministry puts out is a26 six-year completion rate.27 Q And you've indicated that the numbers as they're28 reported for each year they're recording whether29 the student is enrolled in any school in British30 Columbia?31 A That's correct.32 Q So if they move from Bountiful secondary --33 elementary secondary school to Mormon Hills they34 would be captured in these numbers?35 A That's correct.36 Q But if they move from Bountiful elementary school37 to a school in Alberta would they be captured by38 the numbers?39 A No, they would not.40 Q Now, can you -- and over on the following pages,41 if you could just describe what the following42 pages are with respect to Exhibit A starting on43 page -- running from page 3 and 4.44 THE COURT: Sorry, the pages aren't numbered.45 MS. GREATHEAD: They're not numbered on the top?46 THE COURT: Okay. Sorry they are.47 THE WITNESS: Pages 3 and, 4 and 5 are just a graphical




1 representation of the data for Exhibit A.2 MS. GREATHEAD:3 Q Now, Exhibit B, the following page at page 6, what4 does this spreadsheet tell us?5 A This spreadsheet we looked at just counts of6 students in Bountiful Elementary-Secondary and7 Mormon Hills. We started in 2002/2003 and went up8 to the 2009/10 school year and we just looked at9 Grades 10, 11, 12 and then the secondary ungraded

10 grade. And it's just counts of students.11 Q What does secondary ungraded mean?12 A Secondary ungraded is a grade that students can be

13 placed in if they're not working at a particular14 grade level.15 Q Would it capture students working both above grade16 level and below grade level?17 A Yes, it could.18 Q And these are the grades that the school reports19 the students to the Ministry to be present in that20 time; is that correct?21 A That's correct.22 Q And why does the data begin at the 2002/200323 school year?24 A We started with the 2003 -- or 2002/2003, excuse25 me, school year based on the information that I26 started with which was an affidavit provided to me27 of Merrill Palmer who stated starting in 2002/200328 school year. There was some numbers in that one.29 So we started with the same year.30 Q So you were responding to Mr. Palmer's affidavit31 and assertions made in that affidavit?32 A Yes, that was the information I provided.33 Q And 2003/2004 for Mormon Hills, is that the first34 year that Mormon Hills -- for which data was35 available for Mormon Hills?36 A That's correct. That was the first year we have37 information.38 Q And when there are blanks on this spreadsheet what39 does that mean?40 A It means there was no one reported in that grade41 for that year.42 Q And once again, if these students were attending43 any school in British Columbia they would show up44 in the counts on this spreadsheet?45 A This is just a count of the students in the grade46 in the year for those two particular schools.47 Q Now, Exhibit C. This is the -- in relation to




1 students who were home schooled?2 A That's correct.3 Q And what was the purpose of this exhibit?4 A We provided a list of all the students that were5 home schooled because they wouldn't be captured as6 a grade in the school. Home schooling is reported7 to the Ministry as a grade and students who are8 home schooled, the parents are required to9 register them with a school.

10 Q And if these students went on to receive a11 provincial credential such as the dogwood would12 they be captured in the data later in your

13 affidavit?14 A Yes, they would.15 Q And Exhibit D, a list of students who have ever16 attended BESS and who have ever received a17 dogwood. What is this about?18 A So this was our look at some of the graduation19 information. We took a list of any and all20 students who had ever attended either of the two21 schools and reported which school they would have22 received their credential in if they received one.23 Q So if you count the lines there you would have the24 number of students that received -- in the first25 box, that would be who have ever received a26 dogwood?27 A That's correct.28 Q That have ever attended Bountiful Elementary or29 Secondary School?30 A That's correct.31 Q And what is a dogwood?32 A A dogwood is a BC certificate of graduation.33 Q What about the BC adult graduation diploma that34 you referred to in the two bottom boxes on35 Exhibit D, what is that?36 A It is another one of the official BC graduation37 credentials. It has a different set of38 requirements than the regular dogwood, one of them39 being you have to be an adult.40 Q And again so with each box and going on the title41 of the box, if you count the lines there you'd42 have the number of students who ever attended,43 looking at the second box here, Mormon Hills and44 received a dogwood?45 A That's correct. So you would see that there were46 six students who had ever attended that school who47 received dogwoods, and if you go over to the




1 furthest column on the right-hand side you see the2 school that they received it through.3 Q And back up one question. Back up to the top box4 we see that in the '93/94 school years and the5 '91/92 school years that there were dogwoods6 issued by Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School?7 A That's correct.8 Q And were there any issued after the '93/94 school9 year?

10 A Not that I have in the database.11 Q And do you know why it is they were issuing them12 in the '91/92, '93/94 school years?

13 A My understanding is they were authorized to issue14 them in those years.15 Q Now, turning to Exhibit E can you please explain16 this spreadsheet for the court.17 A Sure. We looked at the number of students. We18 started in Grade 7 and just picked a span of19 school years, so any time between 1994, '95 and20 2003/2004, and we got that count of students, and21 we looked at how many of those had ever received22 either the dogwood credential or the adult dogwood23 credential.24 Q And you were looking at the province, Bountiful25 Elementary-Secondary School, Mormon Hills26 Elementary School, Bowen Island Community School.27 Alert Bay Elementary and Canyon Lister Elementary?28 A That's correct.29 Q So this spreadsheet at Exhibit E was designed to30 provide some comparative data?31 A Yes, we provided some other information aside from32 the two schools, and just providing a provincial33 number we looked at for two other communities that34 had some sort of a geographical restriction to35 them where students would have to leave the36 community to graduate, and then we picked the37 closest geographical school being Canyon Lister.38 Q So you picked Canyon Lister as a comparison school39 because it was geographically close to Mormon40 Hills and Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School?41 A That's correct.42 Q And the other two, Bowen Island Community School43 and Alert Bay, are those the two schools you are44 referring to when you said you picked schools45 where students would have to leave in order to46 complete their graduation?47 A That's correct.




1 Q And what was the significance of picking schools2 where students have to leave to obtain a Ministry3 credential or BC graduation diploma?4 A My understanding is that the Bountiful5 Elementary-Secondary School and Mormon Hills are6 not certified for the senior grades to award the7 credentials, so the students who get the8 credentials would have to get it via another9 school, leaving either physically or virtually,

10 taking it through a distance education or online11 program. So we looked for a couple of other12 schools where -- a similar situation.

13 Q And your chart here has five columns, and so the14 last two columns -- the second-last column is just15 the numbers who obtained the dogwood or BC adult16 graduation diploma out of the total number; is17 that correct?18 A Yes, we picked the number of students again who19 were in Grade 7 any time between those years and20 then, giving them enough time to have graduated,21 how many of those did. So we'll see that if we go22 down to the fourth line, the first line for23 Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School, female24 students, there was four had been awarded during25 that time period.26 Q And the next column over says -- that would be the27 percentage of the students of the student body28 there?29 A Yes, so out of the 60 students who met the30 criteria for this we had four of them meet, so we31 got 7 percent.32 Q And why was Grade 7 selected as a starting grade?33 A We started with Grade 7 because that was the34 common grade across all of the schools. Not all35 of the schools, like the Bowen Island Community36 School didn't have Grade 8.37 Q Sorry, when you say the common grade across all of38 the schools you're referring to your comparators,39 Bowen Island, Alert Bay and Canyon Lister?40 A That's correct.41 Q Now, Exhibit F, what were you looking at in42 Exhibit F?43 A So for Exhibit F we started again with our Grade 744 students for the first time just in the '94/9545 school year and then we looked over six years to46 see how many of those students were still in the47 system at any school. And then we did some other




1 information say, okay, are they still in the2 system, have they reached Grade 12 and did they3 get a credential.4 So if I walk through the first line for5 Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School, fourth line6 down of the first table. So there was for female7 students, Grade 7 for the first time in 1994/958 there was four of them, and then we go to the next9 column is the 95/96 school year we still have

10 four, and we go all the way across to the11 2000/2001 school year where we have zero of those12 four female students still in any BC school.

13 Q And again if they had gone lockstep completing14 each -- one grade after the other they would have15 completed Grade 12 in the '99/2000 school year; is16 that correct?17 A That's correct.18 Q And therefore they would have been under that same19 analysis if they were going lockstep grade by20 grade in Grade 11 in '98/99 school year?21 A That's correct.22 Q So we're seeing three female students in the23 '97/98 school year in Grade 10 and by Grade 11 in24 the '98/99 zero?25 A Correct.26 Q And there is on here -- you have your comparators,27 the province, Bountiful elementary school and28 Alert Bay Elementary School. Why is Canyon Lister29 Elementary and Bowen Island not on this30 spreadsheet?31 A They had no Grade 7 students in that 1994/9532 school year.33 Q And --34 A The second table that's also on this page is the35 same figures as above, just represented as a36 percentage.37 Q And then over the page to Exhibit G, and we have a38 series of these tables running from Exhibit G,39 Exhibit H, I, J, K, L, M, N and O. Can you40 explain what is happening in these series of41 spreadsheets?42 A Sure. All of the exhibits that are following that43 you just mentioned follow the same methodology,44 it's just for a different school year. So in45 Exhibit G when we've got the 1995/96 school year46 you see -- it's Exhibit H -- you'll see it's the47 '96/97 school year and so on for the rest of the




1 exhibits.2 Q Chronologically?3 A Correct.4 Q And we see then at Exhibit H Canyon Lister5 Elementary is being added for the first time, and6 that would be the first year that information was7 available on the Grade 7 cohort?8 A That's correct.9 Q And we see that Bowen Island is added at

10 Exhibit J?11 A Correct.12 Q And now, when you're talking about the retention

13 rates from grade to grade, again this is for14 students that are enrolled in any school in15 British Columbia?16 A That's correct.17 Q But doesn't cover students who might go outside of18 the province to Alberta or another jurisdiction?19 A That's correct.20 Q And that would be the same -- the same analysis or21 the same point with respect to Bountiful22 Elementary School and all of the schools you've23 collected data on?24 A That's correct.25 Q Now, do you at the Ministry also collect26 information on post secondary institutions?27 A We do. There's a collaboration that's been in28 effect for a few years now between the Ministry of29 Education and what was formerly advanced education30 that's now split into two ministries, and every31 public post secondary institution within BC to32 exchange information to look at the transitions of33 students from the K to 12 to post secondary34 sector.35 Q And can I have you look at Exhibit P to your36 affidavit.37 A Yes.38 Q And what is -- what information is to be gleaned39 from Exhibit P?40 A So using the information that -- from that41 collaboration we pulled a list of all enrolments42 at any BC public post secondary institution from43 students who had ever had an enrolment at44 Bountiful elementary school and at Mormon Hills as45 well.46 Q So Mormon Hills. Bountiful is pages 23 through?47 A Through 27. And then page 28 is the same for



13Brent Munro (for AGBC)In chief by Ms. GreatheadCross-exam by Mr. Siren

1 Mormon Hills.2 Q When you say BC public post secondary institutions3 what do you mean?4 A In BC there's private and public post secondary5 institutions, so this only covers the public ones.6 So it would be the universities such as University7 of British Columbia, Simon Fraser, UVIC, all the8 other ones. And the public colleges or institutes9 such as Capilano College, Camosun, BCIT. It does

10 not include the private training institution.

11 Q And what is an example of a private training12 institution?13 A One like a Sprott Shaw College.14 Q And now, on -- back to page 23. Does each line15 here represent a single student?16 A No, it does not. This is actually all of their17 enrolments. So as one example, if we can go down18 to the fourth line you see the 2006/2007 post19 secondary school year, we've got a student at the20 College at the Rockies in apprenticeship program.21 If we go to the next one to look at little more22 information on that type of provincial program,23 it's carpentry apprenticeship year one and then24 you'll see the date that that institution awarded25 them the completion of that. The following two26 lines are actually the same student. You'll see27 year one, year two and year three completed in28 that apprenticeship program.29 So out of this complete list of 370ish there's30 about half of those would be students, in the 164,31 65 range of students.32 MS. GREATHEAD: Those are my questions for Mr. Munro,33 My Lord.34 THE COURT: Thank you. Cross.35 MS. TRASK: We have no questions.36 MR. SIREN: Thank you, Your Lordship. For the record37 it's Siren, S-i-r-e-n, first initial N., counsel38 for the FLDS.39 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Siren.4041 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SIREN:42 Q Mr. Munro, at paragraph 2 of your affidavit you43 indicate that there's a computer database and you44 collected information, and this information can45 include graduation rates, provincial exam scores46 and the foundation skills assessments; is that47 correct?



14Brent Munro (for AGBC)Cross-exam by Mr. Siren

1 A That's correct.2 Q And I want to briefly canvass a few generalities3 before we begin4 In regard to graduation you've said that a5 dogwood certificate is issued by the Ministry; is6 that correct?7 A That's my understanding, yes.8 Q And thus BESS is unable, and when I say BESS I9 mean Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School, is

10 unable to issue a dogwood certificate; is that11 correct?12 A That's my understand.

13 Q And they're unable to because they're a group 314 school; is that right?15 A I believe so.16 Q Are you able to explain what a group 3 school is17 or no?18 A I'm not.19 Q Pardon me?20 A I am not able to explain what a group 3 school is.21 Q In regard to provincial exams, the provincial22 exams are created by the Ministry of Education; is23 that right?24 A They're organized through the Ministry of25 Education. They're actually created by BC26 teachers.27 Q Okay. And are these standardized tests?28 A Yes, that's my understanding.29 Q And do you know who marks the provincial exams?30 A Teachers.31 THE COURT: Who does?32 THE WITNESS: BC teachers.33 MR. SIREN:34 Q From where?35 A My understanding is that they're marked in one of36 two places, either locally at the school by37 teachers or there's some central marking done38 where they're sent off somewhere.39 Q And provincial exams are designed to determine40 whether students have met the provincial41 graduation requirements?42 A That's my understanding, yes.43 Q And are you aware of what provincial exam students44 must write in order to obtain a dogwood?45 A No, I'm not.46 Q Now, I did a little bit of internet searching last47 night. I want to hand you a copy of the handbook




1 of procedures for the graduation program. It's2 from the Ministry of Education website. I have3 one copy for the witness and one copy for4 His Lordship. Now, this is chapter 1 of a rather5 lengthy document. Have you ever seen this before?6 A I have seen it in parts before, yes.7 Q Okay. And I just want to refer your attention8 to -- it's number 2. And I'll read it. It says:9

10 Graduation program examinations.11 Examinations that must be taken by students12 in a 2004 graduation program. During credit

13 in specific courses students must take five14 course-based provincial examinations.15 Language Arts 10 and 12, Science 10,16 Mathematics 10 and Social Studies 11 or 12.17 Students may also elect to take additional18 Grade 12 level examinations.1920 Do you see that?21 A Yes.22 Q Is that your understanding of what the graduation23 requirements are?24 A If that's what the procedure -- handbook of25 procedures says then, yes.26 Q You don't have personal knowledge of that?27 A I do not. That is another area that deals with28 that.29 MR. SIREN: All right. Perhaps we could have that30 marked for identification purposes, the handbook.31 THE COURT: Thank you.32 THE CLERK: Exhibit U for identification.33 THE COURT: I beg your pardon?34 THE CLERK: U.3536 EXHIBIT U: 30 p/c excerpt from Handbook of37 Procedures for the Graduation Program; first page38 is headed Chapter 1 Provincial Examinations,39 undated4041 MR. SIREN:42 Q You want to turn your attention to Exhibit B of43 your affidavit, sir. And you discussed this in44 direct, and again just for my clarification, the45 graph shows student head counts at BESS for the46 years indicated, going from 2002 to 2010 and47 includes Grades 10, 11,12; is that right?




1 A That's right, and secondary ungraded.2 Q And secondary ungraded. And this graph3 demonstrates or at least shows that there are4 fewer students attending higher grades?5 A Which graph are you referring to?6 Q I'm referring to Exhibit B, student head counts at7 Mormon Hills. If you look at Grade 10, and I8 believe in your affidavit you've added up how many9 students are in Grade 10 and then if you look at

10 Grade 11 and you've added up how many students are11 in Grade 11, and then in Grade 12 you've added up12 and there were fewer --

13 A This table?14 Q Yes, Exhibit B.15 A Yes, thank you.16 Q Do you see that, sir?17 A Yes.18 Q And you don't have any personal knowledge as to19 why there were fewer students in the successive20 years; right?21 A I do not.22 Q But there are a number of different possibilities23 of why there are changes in these numbers;24 correct?25 A I couldn't speculate on that.26 Q Well, if you had a student who dropped out between27 Grade 10 and Grade 11 they would not be reflected28 in this graph; is that correct?29 A If they dropped out between Grade 10 and 11?30 Q Yes.31 A If they were present in the system in Grade 1032 they would be included here. If they're not33 present in the system then we have no information34 on them.35 Q So for instance, if you looked at 2006/2007 and36 you see you have ten students in Grade 10; right?37 A Yeah.38 Q And I suppose if they went the following year,39 which would be Grade 11, it would be 2007/2008 in40 Grade 11; is that right?41 A If they went lockstep, yes.42 Q Yes. And so if a student dropped out there would43 be one less; is that right?44 A That's correct.45 Q Okay. But if a student transferred in from46 another school there would be one more; correct?47 A That's correct.




1 Q And if a student transferred out from BESS to any2 other school in the province there would be one3 less in this graph; is that right?4 A That's correct.5 Q And if a student, let's say, graduated early after6 Grade 11 they would then not appear in Grade 12;7 is that right?8 A That is correct.9 Q And if a student unfortunately died they would not

10 be represented in the following year; is that11 correct?12 A That's correct.

13 Q And looking at this graph, Exhibit B, you can't14 determine which of these reasons we've just15 canvassed is the cause for the change in these16 numbers; is that right?17 A Not with this exhibit, no.18 THE COURT: Sorry?19 THE WITNESS: No.20 MR. SIREN:21 Q And you've also discussed in direct the secondary22 ungraded students?23 A Yes.24 Q And we see that there are five secondary ungraded25 students in the far right column; correct?26 A That's correct.27 Q And why would a student be marked as secondary28 ungraded?29 A I can't give you the explicit. That would be in30 the instructions for the form, but my31 understanding is that they're not working at a32 level. They could be working above or below it,33 so they're at multiple grade levels.34 Q Okay. Secondary ungraded students can and do35 graduate; is that right?36 A That's correct.37 Q And so if the five secondary ungraded students in38 this graph graduated it wouldn't be reflected in39 here?40 A This table has no graduation information on it.41 Q So they could have graduated and it wouldn't be42 reflected?43 A No, this table has no graduation information on44 it.45 Q I want to turn your attention to Exhibit A of your46 affidavit, sir. Again, you discussed this in47 direct. What this chart does, as I understand it,




1 it takes a base year in Grade 8 for a variety of2 different years then tracks these students3 throughout the British Columbia school system for4 the following years?5 A That's correct.6 Q And I think you mentioned that this data is7 collected from form 1701 reports?8 A That's correct.9 Q Okay. And this is an internal sort of accounting

10 the school does twice a year and sends off the11 information to the Ministry; is that right?12 A Yes, they send the information to the Ministry.

13 Q And are these students present as of14 September 30th? Is that what the Ministry is15 using here?16 A Yes.17 Q Okay. Now, you looked at the first row, or the18 first three rows and we'll stick with that for19 now. And this is the 2004/2005 year. The Grade 820 base year; do you see that?21 A Correct.22 Q Okay. And in this year there are 16 students. Do23 you see that?24 A Yes.25 Q Okay. And then the following year there are 14;26 correct?27 A Correct.28 Q And then you have a corresponding percentage a few29 columns down which indicates that that's 8830 percent and that's just 14 divided by 16; is that31 right?32 A Yes.33 Q And then it continues on until the fifth year34 which would be, as you said earlier, presumably35 Grade 12 if you went through lockstep; right?36 A That's correct.37 Q And you only have three.38 A M'mm-hmm.39 Q And you've indicated that's 19 percent, and again40 that's just three divided by 16; is that right?41 A Yes.42 Q This graph will not indicate if new students43 arrive at the BESS school; is that right?44 A That is correct. It's a cohort.45 Q So again sticking with 2004/2005, if two new46 students came in the second year, which would47 presumably be Grade 9, this graph wouldn't




1 indicate that; is that right?2 A That's correct.3 Q Now, if a student that was originally in the4 Grade 8 class, and again let's stick with5 2004/2005 as an example, isn't represented in the6 next year or the year after that there could be a7 variety of reasons for that; is that right?8 A Yes. They don't tell us why.9 Q Well, it could be that the students stopped

10 attending school altogether; is that right?11 A Possible. I can't speculate on why they're not12 there.

13 Q But it's possible?14 A Okay. Yeah.15 Q It could be that the student transferred to16 another school outside of British Columbia? If a17 student, for instance, let's use Grade 8,18 2004/2005 going into Grade 9 or the second year,19 and you have 16 students and then you have 14 the20 following year. If one of those students or two21 of those students transferred to a school in22 Alberta and continued on with their education it23 wouldn't be reflected in this chart?24 A That's correct. We only have information on the25 BC schools.26 Q It would show that there were two less students?27 A Yes.28 Q Okay. And of course if a student unfortunately29 died that would indicate that they were no longer30 attending?31 A Yes.32 Q And for instance if we looked at the fourth year,33 again sticking with 2004/2005, we see 11 students34 presumably in Grade 11. If any of these students35 graduate early it would look as if they stopped36 attending school after four years; correct?37 A On this chart, yes, it would.38 Q Our offices have been in communication and you39 provided a few new documents to us. I'm going to40 put a few of those to you right now.41 The first is entitled "Tracking students42 enrolled in any British Columbia school in the43 five years following the first Grade 8 enrolment44 at either BESS or Mormon Hills." One for the45 witness and one for His Lordship. Can you please46 identify and explain what this document indicates.47 A Yes. We provided a list of student personal




1 education numbers and asked for the registration2 records on them. So we compiled the list based on3 those PEN numbers, all of the years that they're4 present in.5 Q And if I could draw your attention to the6 2004/2005. So if you look at the columns it says7 "first Grade 8 school year" and you look two major8 rows down and you'll see 2004/2005; do you see9 that, sir?

10 A Yes.11 Q And I counted it and if you like you can count it12 too. There appear to be 16 students in the

13 2004/2005 Grade 8 class.14 A Okay.15 Q And we have corresponding PEN numbers beside each16 one of these students; do you see that?17 A Yes.18 Q And what this is is a breakdown of Exhibit A; is19 that right?20 A This was supplemental information that was21 requested, yes.22 Q So if we look at Exhibit A for a brief moment23 again we see, for instance, we look again at the24 top row, 2004/2005, and we see for base year25 Grade 8, 16 students; do you see that?26 A Yes.27 Q Okay. So when I refer to this new document I've28 just handed you, those are the 16 students for29 2004/2005; is that correct?30 A That's my understanding, yes.31 Q All right. And so for instance if you move along32 the different columns and you go to the fifth33 year, again I'm looking at the new document I have34 just handed to you. Presumably Grade 12 you see35 there are three students that are present there on36 September 30th; do you see that, sir?37 A Yes.38 Q And that corresponds with Exhibit A where you have39 the fifth year three students; correct?40 A Yes.41 Q Okay. Your office also provided a second document42 and this document is entitled "List of all exam43 marks in BC schools provided for or for provided44 list of students."45 MR. SIREN: Can we have this --46 THE COURT: Marked as an exhibit proper?47 MR. SIREN: Yes, marked as an exhibit proper.




1 THE CLERK: Exhibit 136, My Lord.23 EXHIBIT 136: 1 page p/c spreadsheet titled4 "Tracking Students Enrolled in Any BC Schools...";5 first entry for First Grade 8 School Year6 2002/200378 MR. SIREN:9 Q And I've taken the liberty of highlighting certain

10 portions of this document and putting a number in11 the left-hand column; do you see that?12 A Yes, I do.

13 Q All right. And can you identify and explain to14 the court what this document is.15 A Again this was the list of personal identification16 numbers that you provided to us and asked for17 provincial exam information.18 THE COURT: Sorry, this is provincial exam information19 for the PENs they provided?20 THE WITNESS: Correct.21 MR. SIREN:22 Q And so you notice there are 14 different PEN23 numbers indicated on this form. And again I've24 just put a number beside each new one that25 appears; do you see that?26 A Yes.27 Q And these PENs are the same PEN numbers that I --28 that are indicated in Exhibit 136 that we just29 looked at a moment ago, and I'll take you through30 an example for instance. If you look at number 4.31 Do you see number 4?32 A Yes.33 Q And the PEN there is 109021659. Do you see that?34 A Yes.35 Q Okay. Now, go to Exhibit 136, the first document.36 And you will see -- at the very top of the37 2004/2005 Grade 8 base year you see the 659 PEN38 number.39 A Yes.40 Q Okay. And you'll notice that this student is41 present for the first four years and then not42 present for the fifth year; yes?43 A Yes.44 MR. SIREN: Now, if you go back -- perhaps we can mark45 this as an exhibit as well so I can refer to it.46 THE COURT: 137.47 THE CLERK: Exhibit 137, My Lord.




12 EXHIBIT 137: 2 page colour copy spreadsheet3 titled "List of All Exam Marks in BC Schools for4 Provided List of Students"; first entry for School5 Year 2005/200667 MR. SIREN:8 Q So this Exhibit shows -- again 137 shows the9 different exam scores? And for 659, which is

10 number 4, if you scroll right across, and this is

11 the highlighted portion, you will see there's a12 science 10 grade and that she scored an 89; do you13 see that?14 A Yes.15 Q And then if you go down four rows you will see16 English 12; do you see that?17 A Yes.18 Q And then if you go over two columns it appears19 that she scored 87 percent on the English 12 exam?20 A Yes.21 Q And perhaps briefly let's just go through a few of22 these, all right, and see how many of these23 different students have written a provincial -- a24 Grade 12 provincial exam. If you look at25 number 1, about five -- four columns down -- or26 four rows down you will see Communications 12.27 A Yes.28 Q Yes. And for student number 2, again look down29 three rows you will see Communications 12?30 A Yes.31 Q And then for student number 3 look down at32 approximately four rows and you will see33 Communications 12?34 A Yes.35 Q And we've already looked at 4. 5, if you look36 down four rows you will see English 12; yes?37 A Yes.38 Q Now for 6 it appears this student only wrote one39 provincial exam, Science 10, and no Grade 1240 provincial exam. But if you look at 7 it appears41 that English 12 was written and if you look four42 rows down from 7 you will see that.43 A Yes.44 Q And that's the same with 8. Again, look down four45 rows and you see English 12; correct?46 A Correct.47 Q And same with 9, the very last row, again




1 English 12?2 A Yes.3 Q So the majority of these students who are the4 students who are indicated in Exhibit A, the5 majority of these students have written at least6 one provincial 12 exam; correct?7 A Correct.8 Q So although they don't show up in Exhibit A as9 attending Grade 12 or graduating we know, in fact,

10 the majority of them are at least writing Grade 1211 provincial exams?12 A Of this list, yes, it looks like.

13 Q And in regard to the students who haven't written14 a Grade 12 provincial exam on this list we don't15 know whether these students have left the province16 and attended educational facilities elsewhere; is17 that right?18 A That's correct.19 Q And of course they could have died?20 A Correct.21 Q I want to turn your attention to the comparative22 tables you created with respect to the other23 schools. In your affidavit from page 5 onwards24 you make a comparison between BESS and three other25 schools, and these three other schools are Bowen26 Island, Alert Bay and Canyon Elementary; correct?27 A Canyon Lister Elementary, yes.28 Q Who told you to select these schools?29 A One of them came up in discussion with counsel and30 the other one was selected by my staff.31 Q Which two were selected by your staff?32 A Alert Bay and Canyon Lister.33 Q And what were you looking for in selecting these34 schools?35 A We were looking for a school that does not have36 all of the grades. So something that stops in the37 Grade 7, 8, 9 range and one that was in a38 geographic region where you would have to39 physically leave. Or of course you could always40 do distance education, online education.41 Q So schools where they didn't have all the grades42 up to and including Grade 12?43 A Correct.44 Q And in a place that is isolated?45 A Yeah.46 Q All right. What was the purpose in doing so?47 A Well, isolated meaning you have to leave your




1 community to go to another school.2 Q But what was the purpose of you compiling this3 data with these comparable schools?4 A To provide something else to look at, at schools5 that you would have to leave to go get a BC6 credential.7 Q You are not a statistician; is that correct?8 A I am not a statistician, no.9 Q And you concede that this isn't any scientific

10 comparison; is that right?11 A No, they're just straight cohort comparisons.12 Q Okay. Now, in paragraph 16 of your affidavit you

13 indicate that a very low percentage of the14 students from BESS obtained dogwoods and then you15 compare it to the three other comparable schools,16 which have higher rates.17 A Yes. And Mormon Hills as well.18 Q Yes. And as you know BESS is unable to issue19 dogwood certificates; is that correct?20 A That's correct. That's my understanding.21 Q And so even if students -- and I know you don't22 know. We went over the provincial exam23 requirements and the requirements for graduation24 and you don't -- you're not sure exactly what25 those are?26 A I don't set the graduation requirements so I don't27 know what they are.28 Q Yes. But even if students met all of these29 graduation requirements and attended BESS they30 wouldn't be able to receive a dogwood certificate?31 A Okay.32 Q For Bowen Island and Alert Bay specifically, each33 of those areas only offer school up to Grade 7; is34 that right?35 A That was my understanding, yes. Up to Grade 7.36 Q And after Grade 7 the children have three choices37 I suppose, one is distance learning, the second is38 to travel off the island to another school and39 third is to stop attending school?40 A That sounds reasonable, yes.41 Q And these students, in either Alert Bay or Bowen42 Island, don't have the option of attending an43 independent school or an independent group 344 school in their area; is that right?45 A I don't know.46 Q So you didn't look at that when you were compiling47 these statistics?




1 A Look at what?2 Q Well, you didn't look at -- you didn't determine3 whether there were other schools available for4 these students in either Bowen Island or Alert Bay5 to attend?6 A No, we just looked at this school and found one7 that the students had to leave.8 Q But you don't know, for instance, for Bowen Island

9 whether there's a group 3 school on the island?10 A I don't know that off the top of my head, no.11 Q And just sticking with Bowen Island for a moment,12 if these students decide to continue going to13 school rather than doing distance learning they14 would have to attend a school in West Vancouver;15 is that right?16 A I don't know.17 Q Do you know what schools they would attend?18 A No, I do not.19 Q So you're not sure whether the schools that they20 would have to attend are public schools or not?21 A I don't know which schools would be close for them22 to attend.23 Q Now, Bountiful is a Mormon community. That's your24 understanding?25 A Yes.26 Q And the students from BESS come from Mormon27 families; correct?28 A You would assume that, yes.29 Q Okay. The comparative schools, and when I say30 comparative schools I mean Bowen Island, Alert31 Bay, Canyon, they're not Mormon communities; is32 that right?33 A I have no idea.34 Q And you don't know if any of those communities are35 primarily religious communities, do you?36 A I have no idea.37 Q So you didn't take that into account when38 compiling similar schools?39 A We don't have that type of information so we40 couldn't take it into account.41 Q Now, I'm making an assumption -- you can correct42 me if I'm wrong, but you didn't look at any43 socioeconomic indicators when creating these44 comparative schools; is that right?45 A We don't have that type of information so, no, we



46 couldn't include it.47 Q So you wouldn't know a family's income or average




1 income level for any of these different areas; is2 that right?3 A No, we would not know that.4 Q And you wouldn't know a family's education level5 from any of these different areas; is that right?6 A That's correct.7 Q And same with occupation?8 A Correct.9 Q So you're unable to say what effect if any

10 socioeconomic levels or status has on education;11 is that right?12 A That's correct. I can't say that.

13 Q You touched on Exhibits F to O earlier and I just14 want to draw your attention to Exhibits F through15 I, and this is page 11 to 14 of your affidavit?16 THE COURT: What page did you say?17 MR. SIREN: 11 to 14, Your Lordship. So Exhibit F is18 11.19 Q And this is similar to Exhibit A insofar as you20 take the base year and you track these students21 through; is that right?22 A Yes, this a cohort, correct.23 Q And in this case you use Grade 7 as a base year?24 A Correct.25 Q And you gave evidence earlier indicating that BESS26 did not have Grades 11 and 12 before 2003; is that27 correct?28 A I can't speak to what they're authorized or29 certified to do, but that's my understanding.30 Q Okay. And so for instance for this year, for31 Exhibit F, you look at the base year and that's32 1994/1995 and then you track them along.33 1999/2000 would be Grade 12; right? Presumably if34 you went lockstep?35 A Which year did you say, sorry?36 Q 1999/2000.37 A That's correct.38 Q Okay. And in this year BESS didn't have a39 Grade 11 or Grade 12; is that right?40 A That's my understanding.41 Q And if you go over to Exhibit G, again look at42 Grade 11 presumably would be 1999/2000 and the43 following year would be 2000/2001 which presumably44 would be Grade 12, BESS didn't have grades 11 or45 12 offered; correct?46 A Again, that's my understanding, yes.47 Q Okay. So we'll move along. But this is the same




1 problem we have with H and the same problem with2 I, is that BESS isn't even offering Grades 11 or3 12 when you're tracking this data through. So4 will you concede that a better comparison would5 have been gleaned from using years where Grades 116 and 12 existed for BESS?7 A Okay. So just -- this chart shows them enrolled8 at any school. So when you're looking at the BESS9 number, that Grade 11 or 12 school year they can

10 be at any BC school.11 Q Yes.12 A So we're starting with the cohort of BES students

13 and saying are they still in the system.14 Q Yes. No, I appreciate that and these students may15 very well have been going through BESS the whole16 way. We don't know from this data; correct?17 A It doesn't list them school by school, that's18 correct.19 Q And these students then, if they went -- if they20 were in BESS in Grade 10 for these years would21 have to choose to go to a different school if they22 wanted to continue on with their education?23 A They can choose to go to a different school.24 Q Yes. They didn't have an option to continue on in25 BESS because Grades 11 and 12 didn't exist?26 A Okay.27 Q And then more generally, for all of the exhibits F28 through O, and this is pages 11 through 20,29 they're just different Grade 7 base years?30 A That's correct.31 Q And you followed the student for the next six32 years as you've indicated?33 A Yes.34 Q These charts have the same frailty that Exhibit A35 has. And when I say "frailty" it doesn't give us36 a reason for why there are changes; is that right?37 A No, we don't get that type of information.38 Q So again if you had students graduating early,39 after Grade 11, it wouldn't indicate that they40 graduated early in any of these charts; is that41 right?42 A Not -- well, in some of them it would if they've43 graduated with one of the BC credentials, then44 yes, because if you go further down the columns it45 shows were they awarded a dogwood ever.46 Q And your understanding is BESS doesn't issue and47 is not allowed to issue dogwood certificates; is




1 that right?2 A That's my understanding, yes.3 Q So if we use -- and I don't want to get clogged4 in semantics, but we use the term "graduation"5 rather loosely to not complying necessarily with6 the Ministry, but going through Grade 12 at BESS.7 That's what we'll call graduation just for these8 purposes; okay?9 A I can only speak to the graduation information we

10 have.11 Q No, I appreciate that. I'm saying for these12 students, just as we went through for Exhibit A,

13 if they had met BESS's graduation requirements14 after Grade 11 it would appear as though they15 stopped attending for Grade 12; correct?16 A If they did not register in the subsequent year17 yes, it would appear that way.18 Q And if these students transferred out of the19 province they would not be represented in this20 graph?21 A That's correct.22 Q And of course if they died?23 A Correct.24 Q In paragraph 2 you mention the foundation skills25 assessment and that the Ministry has the ability26 to track these numbers; is that right?27 A That is some of the information we have, yes.28 Q And the foundation skills assessment is an annual29 province-wide assessment of British Columbia30 students' academic skills; is that right?31 A There are three components to the test, yes.32 Q And what are those three -- sorry to cut you off.33 A Sorry, what are the three components of it?34 Q Yes, components.35 A There's a reading component, a writing component36 and a numeracy component.37 Q And this test is provided to Grade 4 and Grade 738 across the province; is that right?39 A Yes.40 Q And what is the purpose of that test?41 A I can't speak to that. I don't develop the test.42 Q We've spoken briefly about the data repository43 that the Ministry has. And in this data44 repository you would have FSA test scores;45 correct?46 A That's correct.47 Q And you could pull them up?




1 A You could, yes.2 Q Now, recently the Fraser Institute released a3 report. Are you aware of this?4 A I heard it came out, yes.5 Q And they use, as I understand it, FSA tests to6 rank schools?7 A I can't speak to their methodology.8 Q Are you aware that they use the FSA test or no?9 A I'm aware that they do use some of that

10 information, yes.11 Q Okay. Now, I appreciate that you didn't write12 this report and you haven't reviewed it I imagine.

13 The most recent Fraser Institute report, you have14 not reviewed it?15 A I have not seen it yet.16 Q But I am going to pass you a copy of it.17 THE COURT: Even though he hasn't read it, hasn't seen18 it.19 MR. SIREN: I thought I would get the preliminaries out20 of the way.21 THE COURT: Any objections? I take it there are none.22 MR. JONES: I'll wait to see where it goes, My Lord.23 But it is what it is.24 MR. SIREN:25 Q Now, all I'm interested here is the source data.26 I know that -- or as I understand from reading27 some of the report that the Fraser Institute28 doesn't just use F SA reports, they use other29 calculations. But I want to ask you questions30 about the FSA scores.31 A Okay.32 Q And I want to ask you questions about BESS's FSA33 scores and Bowen Island's, because we've spoken of34 Bowen Islands earlier and it's a comparable group.35 Now, if you turn to page -- and it's lengthy, I36 appreciate that. It's page 44. And I want you to37 turn to another page at the same time so we have38 both pages handy. 44 and 63. So on 44 -- are you39 on that page, sir?40 A Yes.41 Q And you'll see that Bowen Island is -- it's four42 rows down in the middle?43 A Okay.44 Q All right. And you will see in Bowen Island's45 graph.46 THE COURT: Okay. I've got 44. Sorry.47 MR. SIREN:




1 Q You'll see that there's a Grade 4 average score2 indicated, and Grade 7 average score; you see3 that?4 A Yes.5 Q And beside each there are three components, the6 three components you mentioned earlier, reading,7 writing and numeracy?8 A Correct.9 Q And then if you scroll along the different columns

10 to 2010, and this is I believe the 2010 FSA score,11 and you have again six corresponding scores for12 each of the different grades and for each of the

13 different components; do you see that?14 A Yes.15 Q Now, you can't tell me off the top of your head16 whether this is accurate or not, can you?17 A No, this is not a Ministry report.18 Q Okay. Hold that page right there and let's just19 turn now to 63. And you will see at the bottom of20 page 63 in the middle you have Bountiful; do you21 see that, sir?22 A Yes.23 Q And again we have the same columns and rows --24 sorry, Grade 4 average score and Grade 7 average25 score with the three different tests for each?26 A M'mm-hmm.27 Q And if you go along to 2011 there's some scores?28 A Yes.29 Q And of course you can't tell me whether those are30 accurate?31 A No, this is not a Ministry report.32 Q All right. Now, I'll put it to you, and you can33 look to verify, that five out of the six scores34 indicated in this report have Bountiful beating35 Bowen Island; okay?36 A Okay.37 Q Now, the Ministry could verify whether this is38 accurate; is that correct?39 A The Ministry can verify what the data is, but they40 can't verify the accuracy of this report. They41 don't produce it.42 Q No, but you could verify, for instance, if we're43 looking at page 44, Grade 4 average score for44 Bowen Island, and let's look at reading for 2010.45 It says 571. The Ministry can find out whether46 that's the actual score.47 A We can tell you what the average score is, yes.




1 Q Okay. I'm going to make a request that on the2 break you call your office and you ask them to3 confirm whether these are accurate so we can tell4 His Lordship whether it is, in fact, true that5 Bountiful has outscored Bowen Island on five out6 of the six FSA tests. Would that be possible?7 A I can put the request forward to have what the8 average scores are for those two schools in9 question, yes.

10 Q Okay.11 A But again this is not a Ministry report.12 Q No, I appreciate that, but the Ministry will be

13 able to confirm whether these scores are the true14 scores?15 A I can provide the average scores, yes.16 MR. SIREN: Can we mark this as an exhibit for17 identification purposes only.18 THE COURT: Thank you. Exhibit.19 THE CLERK: Exhibit V for identification, My Lord.2021 EXHIBIT V: 97 page p/c Report Card on British22 Columbia's Elementary Schools 2011 from the Fraser23 Institute dated February 2011, held with a black24 bulldog clip.2526 MR. SIREN: Your Lordship, those are my questions and27 perhaps we could take the break and give Mr. Munro28 an opportunity.29 THE COURT: Yes. Is there further cross?30 MR. DICKSON: Not from us, My Lord.31 THE COURT: Okay. We'll take the break. Thanks.32 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court is adjourned for33 the morning recess.3435 (WITNESS STOOD DOWN)36 (MORNING RECESS)3738 THE CLERK: Order in court.39 THE COURT: Mr. Siren.4041 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SIREN: (Continued)42 Q We left off, Mr. Munro, discussing some of the43 findings in the Fraser Institute's report, and you44 went back and I understand tried to determine45 whether they were accurate or that the Ministry46 could confirm the different scores listed for47 Bowen Island and Bountiful; is that correct?



32Edward Vanderboom (for AGBC)In chief by Ms. Greathead

1 A That is correct.2 Q And what did your office inform you of?3 A My staff informed me that the numbers were correct4 for those two schools for the reading and the5 numeracy components. We were unable to confirm6 the writing ones because it appears that it has7 been put on a different scale. But reading and8 numeracy were correct.9 MR. SIREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Munro.

10 THE COURT: Thank you. Any redirect?11 MS. GREATHEAD: No redirect, My Lord.12 THE COURT: Thank you, sir, you're excused.

1314 (WITNESS EXCUSED)1516 MS. GREATHEAD: My Lord, the Ministry of Attorney17 General is now calling Mr. Edward Vanderboom.18 THE COURT: Thank you.19 Edward Vanderboom, a20 witness, called by the21 AGBC, sworn.2223 THE CLERK: Please state your full name and spell your24 last name for the record.25 THE WITNESS: Edward Vanderboom V-a-n-d-e-r-b-o-o-m.26 THE COURT: Please have a seat, sir.27 MS. GREATHEAD: I'm handing up Mr. Vanderboom a copy of28 his affidavit, My Lord.2930 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MS. GREATHEAD:31 Q Mr. Vanderboom, can you confirm that the affidavit32 that I've handed you is a copy of the affidavit33 that you swore in these proceedings.34 A Yes, I do.35 Q And you indicate in your affidavit that you are36 the inspector of independent schools, appointed37 under the Independent School Act.38 A Yes.39 Q Can you tell the Court what an independent school40 is.41 A An independent school is a school authorized under42 the Ministry of Education through the Independent43 School Act to offer an educational program. It44 offers a program in schools that are of a variety,45 could be religious schools, it could be special46 schools, Waldorf, Montessori or university prep47 schools, providing choice for parents who don't




1 wish to have their children attend a public2 school. There's about 12 percent of the students3 in British Columbia that attend independent4 schools.5 Q Now, as the inspector of independent schools, can6 you briefly describe what your responsibilities7 are.8 A Under the Independent School Act my responsibility9 are the regulation of independent schools, which

10 includes registering independent schools,11 inspecting them and confirming that they meet the12 requirements of the Independent School Act and

13 therefore classifying them accordingly.14 Q Now, you used a number of terms in there. When15 you talked about registering an independent16 school, what are you referring to there?17 A It would be identifying a school or identifying an18 authority that wishes to establish a school and19 issuing them an interim classification enabling20 them to begin school, and subsequently they could21 become classified as a group 1 or a group 2 school22 or perhaps a group 4 school.23 Q Now, so you've mentioned one of your roles is to24 classify independent schools and you just25 mentioned group 1, group 2, group 4 schools. Can26 you explain what that is all about in the27 independent school context.28 A The Independent School Act recognizes four groups29 of independent schools. One, group 1, 2, 3 and 4.30 Group 1 and 2 schools meet the requirements of the31 educational program as established by the32 educational standards order. They provide -- they33 must have certified -- BC certified teachers34 delivering the program and they are funded at35 either 50 percent for group 1 or 35 percent of the36 per pupil operating a grant that goes to the37 district in which the independent school is found.38 Q Sorry, just to stop you there for a moment. Is it39 fair to say the difference between group 1 and 240 is in the amount of funding they receive from the41 Ministry?42 A Yes.43 Q I'm sorry, now, you were telling us about the44 other groups, 3 and 4?45 A Yes, group 3 schools meet basic requirements46 having to do with safety of students, and that is47 evidenced through compliance with municipal




1 requirements for facilities. It must meet safety2 requirements with respect to supervision of3 students and with respect to teachers having a4 criminal record check satisfactory through the5 PSSG, the Ministry of Public Service and Solicitor6 General's office.7 The group 4 schools are like group 1 and8 group 2 schools in terms of delivering an9 educational program; however, they are not

10 required -- or they do not receive funding from11 the Ministry because these ostensibly serve12 international students whose parents are not

13 resident in British Columbia and therefore not14 taxpayers in British Columbia.15 All of the schools, 1, 2, 3 and 4 must comply16 with schedule 1 of the -- section 1 of the17 schedule of the Independent School Act18 Q And what is involved in that?19 A Which says they do not promote racial20 discrimination, intolerance, sedition -- there's a21 list provided there. I don't think I've been22 exhaustive in describing the list, but at any rate23 all independent schools must comply with that.24 Q So groups 1, 2 and 4 must meet certain educational25 programs; is that correct?26 A Yes.27 Q And what about group 3 on the educational program28 standards?29 A Group 3 provides an educational program of sorts30 to the choosing of the school authority but is not31 required to meet the standards of the educational32 standards order, which is a piece of legislation33 required by group 1, 2 and 4 schools.34 Q And are the group 3 schools funded?35 A No.36 Q And can an individual school have mixed37 classification, so some of the grades would be38 group 1 or 2 and other of the grades would be39 group 3?40 A Yes. Some of the schools can be grouped as a41 group 1 school from 1 through 7 and then group 342 from 8 through 12 for example, yes.43 Q Now, I'm going to ask you some questions about44 Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School and Mormon45 Hills Elementary School. Are you familiar with46 Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School?47 A Yes, I am.




1 Q And have you been there?2 A Yes, I have.3 Q And what was the purpose of your visit to that4 school?5 A As the deputy inspector, which was my position6 prior to becoming the inspector of independent7 schools, that's prior to 2009, I went to Bountiful8 Elementary-Secondary School for a program9 evaluation at which time I looked at the Grade 11

10 and 12 program.11 Q Can you describe Bountiful Elementary-Secondary12 School for His Lordship in terms of where it's

13 located and who it serves, those kind of details.14 A It is located near the town of Creston in south15 eastern part of British Columbia. It's a16 community just south of Creston and it serves --17 the community is comprised of members of the FLDS18 church community and the students at the school19 are children of parents within that community.20 Q And is Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School an21 independent school?22 A Yes, it is.23 Q And how is it currently classified?24 A It's currently classified as a group 1 school from25 kindergarten through Grade 10 and identified as a26 group 3 portion within that school for Grades 1127 and 12.28 Q And based on what you have told us then they would29 be required in K through 10 to meet certain30 educational standards?31 A Yes.32 Q But not so for Grades 11 and 12?33 A Yes.34 Q Now, Mr. Vanderboom, can I have you turn to35 paragraph 18 of your affidavit, and it's in this36 paragraph you're talking about the classification37 and certification of Bountiful38 Elementary-Secondary School historically. Are the39 numbers that you've given at paragraph 1840 accurate?41 A Well, no, they're not. The first line of the --42 in 18 says '91/92 to '93/4 it should be '91/2 to43 '94/5.44 Q And that's talking about school years there?45 A That's talking about school years. And at that46 time they were group 1 K through 12.47 Q Up until the '94/95 from -- at least from '91/92




1 they did have to meet the educational programs2 standards for Grade 11 and 12 as well?3 A Yes. And the second line should be also changed.4 So rather than '94/5 to '04/5 it should be '95/65 to '04/5. And in that line it says that Grade 116 and 12 was not offered, so what happened from7 '95/6 -- sorry, '94/5 to the following year, from8 our indication they no longer had students in9 Grade 11 and 12 and therefore dropped their grade

10 offering to include only 10.11 Q Now, and so as you mentioned the current12 classification is as set out on the bottom line

13 there?14 A Yes.15 Q They're a group 1 school for K to 10 and group 316 for 11 to 12?17 A Yes, that's correct.18 Q Are you also familiar with Mormon Hills Elementary19 School?20 A Yes, I am.21 Q Have you attended Mormon Hills Elementary School.22 A Yes, I've been there too.23 Q And can you again, like with Bountiful24 Elementary-Secondary School, explain for the court25 where this school is located and who it serves.26 A It's located in the same community as Bountiful27 Elementary-Secondary. The school is located28 adjacent to the Bountiful Elementary-Secondary29 School.30 Q And is it also --31 A It serves the same kind of community, although32 there may be differences within the Mormon Hills33 community and the Bountiful Elementary-Secondary34 School having to do with their philosophy,35 direction, whatever. There was some disagreement36 in the community which gave rise to the37 establishment of the Mormon Hills elementary38 secondary school.39 Q And is Mormon Hills also an independent school40 governed under the Independent School Act?41 A Yes, it is.42 Q And how is Mormon Hills currently classified?43 A It's currently classified as a group 1 school from44 kindergarten through Grade 12.45 Q And how long has Mormon Hills had the K to 1246 classification in group 1?47 A We sent in an inspector to do a program evaluation




1 in October of 2010 at which time it was determined2 that their Grade 11 and 12 program met the3 requirements of the educational standards order4 and therefore as of September the 1st, 2010, so in5 other words for this current academic year6 2010/11, they are now certified for kindergarten7 through Grade 12.8 Q Now, if I could have you, Mr. Vanderboom, refer to9 paragraph 34 of your affidavit. And in

10 paragraph 34 you are talking about the11 classification and certification of Mormon Hills12 secondary school; is that correct?

13 A Yes.14 Q And did you in preparing to give evidence this15 morning have another look and create a document to16 provide further detail about the past17 certification of Mormon Hills?18 A Yes, we did. We reviewed the matter and found19 that there were some corrections that needed to be20 made with respect to the flow of certification21 from '03 to 2010.22 MS. GREATHEAD: And My Lord, I haven't given my friend23 the amicus, I'm sorry, I talked to my friend24 from -- counsel for the FLDS about Mr. Vanderboom25 has created a chart just to clarify this26 paragraph.27 Q I'm sorry, Mr. Vanderboom -- sorry. Is this a28 copy of the chart that you created with respect to29 the certification and classification of Mormon30 Hills Elementary School?31 A Yes.32 Q And could you explain, please, what it means.33 A Right. So starting in '03/04, which is the first34 year Mormon Hills Elementary School started, it35 was identified as a group 3 school. The following36 year, '04/05, it became a group 1 school in37 kindergarten through 7. Then in -- now, then in38 '05/06 it became -- the kindergarten students in39 '05/06 went elsewhere so they dropped that grade40 and 1 through 7 continued as a group -- a group 141 school.42 The following year, '06/07, the school was43 wanting to add grades. You can see that group 144 was identified for grades 1 through 7, and 8 and 945 continued as a group 3 school. The year after46 that, '07/08, they added another grade to the47 group 3 portion, so they now have 8, 9 and 10 as




1 group 3. The following year, '08/09, they have 12 through 9 certified as group 1. So one of the --3 two of the grades in -- from the group 3 portion4 became a group 1 and the group 3 portion was5 continued as a K as well as 10, 11 and 12.6 Then in '09/10 group 1 is now K to 10, so7 they've added another grade, and group 3 was 11,8 12, and in 2010, this year then, the entire9 school, K to 12, became a group 1 school.

10 Q So the first year that they were classified in11 group 1 for Grades 11 and 12 was this school year?12 A Yes.

13 THE COURT: Exhibit.14 MS. GREATHEAD: I wonder, My Lord, if I might have this15 marked as the next exhibit.16 THE COURT: Thank you.17 THE CLERK: Exhibit 138, My Lord.1819 EXHIBIT 138: 1 page p/c table titled "Mormon20 Hills Elementary-Secondary School"; first entry21 2003/2004, Group 32223 MS. GREATHEAD:24 Q Now, I'm going to ask you a few questions about25 the collection of data and refer you to one of the26 exhibits in your affidavit. We have heard from27 Mr. Munro that school districts provide28 information on an individual basis based on a PEN29 number to the Ministry of Education. Now -- and30 he's referred to a form, form 1701. Are you also31 familiar with the form 1701?32 A Yes, I am.33 Q And if I could have you then turn to Exhibit A in34 your affidavit. And we have A at page 1. What is35 this here? Exhibit A, page 1?36 A It's a report record and data submission order.37 Q And who makes these orders?38 A The minister makes these orders.39 Q It's a ministerial order?40 A Yes.41 Q And this is the one that is setting up the data42 collection based on form 1701?43 A Yes, it is.44 Q And over the page then to page 3. What is this?45 A This is the 1701 student data collection form46 which outlines for what purposes the 1701 is47 collected and what information is provided on




1 that, and it provides also step-by-step2 instructions for the completion of this form.3 Q And those are instructions to who?4 A Those are instructions to independent schools.5 Well, actually all schools, but also independent6 schools in particular and also BC certified7 offshore schools.8 Q So from this form the Ministry will get9 information on where a student is going to school,

10 which school they're in, their gender, their name,11 their age, that kind of information?12 A Yes.

13 Q And both public schools and independent schools14 use this form to --15 A Yes.16 Q -- collect information? And does the Ministry17 collect information about special needs students18 at the independent schools?19 A No, that information is not collected through a20 1701. If a school has students that are enrolled21 that are deemed to be special needs students then22 the school is -- the school may make application23 directly to our office, the office of the24 inspector of independent schools, and if approved25 received funding for 1, 2 or 3 supplementary26 special education grants.27 Q I notice on this one, on page 3 of Exhibit A it28 indicates that the files must arrive at the29 Ministry on or before February 12th, 2010. So30 this is the instruction for the data collection31 that occurs in February?32 A Yes.33 Q And there is one also that occurs?34 A September 30th. Or after September 30th. Based35 on a September 30th count.36 Q Now, I'm going to move on and ask you a few37 questions about the inspection process generally.38 I'm going to first ask about the inspection39 process as it relates to independent schools40 generally and then I'm going move and ask you41 specific questions about Bountiful elementary42 school and Mormon Hills in particular.43 So on the process generally, and maybe I could44 have you look at paragraphs 15 and 16 of your45 affidavit, and you talk there about external46 evaluations and monitoring inspections. Can you47 explain in general terms what an external




1 evaluation is.2 A An external evaluation is an evaluation that is3 identified in the Independent School Act,4 initiated by the inspector of independent schools5 through an external evaluation committee. The6 inspector is authorized to appoint a committee, an7 external evaluation committee, to go into an8 independent school and to review matters9 pertaining to the operation of the school as

10 identified and as required by the Independent11 School Act.12 Those matters include looking at facilities,

13 program, teacher certification, policies,14 procedures, operations, those items, items like15 that. And the external evaluation committee16 writes a report to the inspector and based on that17 report the inspector is able to classify an18 independent school.19 Q And when you say "classify" that's back to the20 groups 1 through 4 that you explained earlier?21 A Right.22 Q And have you been a member of an external23 evaluation committee?24 A Yes, I was.25 Q You --26 A Prior to my role as inspector of independent27 schools, prior to coming to work for the Ministry28 I was seconded over a number of years to lead29 external evaluation committees for independent30 schools.31 Q And then again as the inspector, the current32 inspector of independent schools, have you caused33 external evaluation committees to be formed and to34 do their work?35 A Yes.36 Q And what kind of people or like, what roles -- are37 they teachers or principals, or who is on these38 external evaluation committees?39 A External evaluation committee are comprised of40 teachers, former teachers, current teachers,41 former administrators, current administrators in42 independent schools but also retired43 superintendents from public schools, former44 inspectors of independent schools. Folks who know45 the external evaluation process and who know, are46 fully familiar with the Independent School Act.47 Q Now, in your affidavit you also mentioned




1 monitoring inspections. Is a monitoring2 inspection something different than an external3 evaluation?4 A Monitoring inspections occur between successive5 external evaluations. Monitoring inspections are6 undertaken by Ministry inspectors. That would be7 someone from our office. Could be myself or the8 assistant deputy inspector or the deputy9 inspector. These monitoring inspections take a --

10 review the matters that are identified in a11 checklist for monitoring purposes, and really,12 it's like a mini external evaluation.

13 Q And what's the purpose of a monitoring inspection?14 A To confirm that between external evaluations the15 school continues to comply with the requirements16 of the Independent School Act.17 Q And what about inspections for group 3 schools?18 Do they differ from the external evaluation and19 the monitoring inspection that you've just20 described?21 A Group 3 schools, the requirements for group 322 schools are different than the requirements for23 group 1, 2 and 4 and so the inspection process,24 while similar, focuses on matters pertaining to25 the safety of students, the facilities, to ensure26 that the building is sound and suitable for an27 educational purpose, ensuring that the teachers28 have -- the teachers that they employ are -- have29 suitable criminal record checks, but we do not30 look at the educational program. So it differs31 from a monitoring inspection of the group 1, 2 or32 4 school in terms of its substance and its degree33 of compliance requirement.34 Q So you're only going to look at the educational35 program if the group 3 school is saying they would36 like to become a group 1 or 2 school; is that37 correct?38 A Yes, at which time it would be called a program39 evaluation.40 Q And what happens in a program evaluation?41 A We look at the particular grades under42 consideration and determined that the educational43 program offered in those grades meets the standard44 established by the Independent School Act and its45 supporting regulations vis-a-vis the educational46 standards order.47 Q Now, you've mentioned that an -- and I'll have you




1 turn to paragraph 17 of your affidavit. And2 you're saying here, at paragraph 17 you're talking3 about the different classes of schools, and in4 your second sentence you state:56 As stated in that document the external7 evaluation of group 1, 2 and 4 schools is a8 comprehensive exercise that examines the9 school's program, facilities, curriculum,

10 operations and teacher certification to11 ensure that the school meets the statutory12 requirements including the educational

13 standards order.1415 So when you're talking about that in paragraph 1716 you're talking about the external evaluation that17 you've explained generally --18 A Yes.19 Q -- to the court; is that correct? And just to20 give us a bit more detail, when you talk about the21 curriculum, what are you looking at in regards to22 the curriculum when you're doing these evaluations23 on groups 1, 2 and 4 schools?24 A Okay. When looking at the curriculum we determine25 that the school is meeting the requirements of26 that particular curriculum as identified through27 IRPs, which are integrated resource packages,28 curriculum documents that the Ministry produces,29 confirming that the school in its delivery meets30 the learning outcomes identified in that31 curriculum.32 The learning outcomes -- it would also need to33 confirm that the time requirements are being met34 for the delivery of a four credit course or a two35 credit course, that there was sufficient planning36 to confirm that the learning outcomes were being37 met.38 Q And are learning outcomes something set by the39 Ministry?40 A Yes, they are identified in the IRP.41 Q And again, you said IRP stands for integrated42 resource package?43 A Package.44 Q And that is a curriculum document for the schools45 in British Columbia?46 A Yes. Yes.47 Q And the other one in your paragraph here I would




1 like you to provide more detail on is you say you2 examined the school's program. What is involved3 in examining the school's program?4 A Well, it really is the educational program that5 you're looking at, but the delivery of the6 program, the policies that the school may have7 with regard to assessments, anything to do with8 delivery. We would look at that and call that9 part of the school's program.

10 Q And these two elements, the school's program and11 the curriculum, are they something -- they're not12 covered in inspections for group 3 schools?

13 A Right.14 Q Now, you mentioned too here about teacher15 certification in paragraph 17. Can you explain16 the types of teacher certifications that are17 recognized by yourself as the inspector of18 independent schools?19 A Right. In the Independent School Act it20 identifies that all teachers in -- teaching in a21 group 1, 2 or 4 independent school must have BC22 certification. All teachers must have BC23 certification. That certification can happen in24 two ways, one, through the BC College of Teachers,25 which if a teacher has a certification issued by26 the -- certificate of qualification issued by the27 BC College of Teachers they can teach either in28 public or in independent schools. There are also29 a number of certificates that are issued by the --30 our office, the office of the inspector of31 independent schools which enable a teacher --32 which authorize a teacher to teach in an33 independent school only.34 Those certification include a professional35 certificate, which under -- which is the same as36 the certificate issued by the BC College of37 Teachers. It also -- we also issue a subject38 restricted certificate, which would be a39 certificate enabling a person to teach only a40 particular subject under certain conditions. If41 they had a math degree or a PhD in math then they42 could ostensibly teach math under such a43 certificate. Or we also issue a system restricted44 certificate which enables a person trained in45 Montessori or Waldorf pedagogy to teach only in46 those kind of schools. Or we have a school and47 subject restricted certificate which enables a




1 person to teach within a particular subject area,2 what we call non-core subject, within an3 independent school under a particular authority4 only.5 Q Sorry, what is a non-core subject?6 A Non-core subject would be subjects other than7 English, social studies, math and science.8 Q And you talked about the system restricted9 certificate and you gave examples of the Waldorf

10 or Montessori pedagogy or approach to teaching.11 Would a system restricted certificate also apply12 to a member of the FLDS or another religious

13 group?14 A No, the only system restricted certificates that15 we currently issue are for Montessori and Waldorf.16 Q Now, what does a teacher need to teach in a public17 school in British Columbia, what kind of18 certificate?19 A They would need a certificate from BC College of20 Teachers.21 Q And so is there a policy rationale behind why22 there is a different certificate required for23 public school teachers as opposed to independent24 school teachers?25 A Well, different -- the decision on offering26 certificates through the office of the inspector27 of independent school was made well before I came28 to government to, as I understand it, provide some29 flexibility and opportunity for small schools,30 perhaps rural schools, to continue to offer an31 educational program, say, within a subject area or32 within a -- under some restriction. And so that33 was identified as an opportunity or an option34 within the Independent School Act sometime ago,35 and the Independent School Act of course has been36 around since 1989, I believe.37 So the exact reason for that, I wasn't there.38 Q Can group 1, 2 and 4 schools, if they have that39 grouping for up to and including Grade 12, issue40 dogwood high school diplomas?41 A Yes, they can.42 Q And what about group 3 schools?43 A No, they can't. A school must have a group 1, 244 or 4 classification in grades 10, 11 and 12 to be45 able to offer a dogwood certificate.46 Q And why can't the group 3 schools issue them?47 A Because we don't look at their educational program




1 and confirm that it meets the requirements of the2 educational standards order.3 Q Now, can I have you turn, Mr. Vanderboom, to4 Exhibit B of your affidavit. And --5 A It's coming.6 Q It begins at page 17.7 A Yes.8 Q Handwritten on the corner. What is this?9 A This lays out -- it's from our website. It lays

10 out the external evaluation inspection process.11 It identifies when frequency of, everything else12 being the same, the frequency of external

13 evaluations and the process by which this is14 undertaken.15 Q Do you use this as a guide in conducting external16 evaluations and inspections?17 A Yes, we do.18 Q And at page 21 of this exhibit, is this a19 checklist used for monitoring inspections of20 group 1 and 2 independent schools?21 A Yes, it is.22 Q And at page 23, this is the checklist in relation23 to group 3 schools; is that right?24 A Yes, it is.25 Q Now, we've heard a bit about provincial exams and26 I'm wondering if you can tell the Court when it is27 that a student can write a Grade 12 provincial28 exam?29 A Students to graduate with a dogwood diploma are30 required to write five provincial examinations,31 three in Grade 10 -- three at the Grade 10 level,32 one at the Grade 11 level and one at the Grade 1233 level. So prior to receiving a dogwood diploma34 from the Ministry they are required to write those35 five exams. When exactly within that three-year36 time period when they write that exam is really37 based on readiness, the readiness of the student38 to write the particular exam.39 Q So it can they write the Grade 12 exam in40 Grade 10?41 A Arguably, if they are ready.42 Q And what about -- does having written a Grade 1243 written exam prove that a student has graduated?44 A Writing a Grade 12 provincial exam will give a45 student a mark for the provincial examination46 only. The graduation requirements for a dogwood47 identify that a portion of the final mark going




1 towards the -- meeting the requirements of the2 dogwood are comprised of a school mark as well as3 an examination mark.4 To take English 12 as an example, the school5 portion of that final mark which appears on a6 dogwood transcript would be -- the school portion7 would be 60 percent and the examination portion8 would be 40 percent. If a school is not9 classified as a group 1, 2 or 4 school for

10 grade 10, 11 and 12 they will not have a school11 mark to blend with an examination mark. So the12 examination mark proves -- if the student passes

13 the examination, proves that they passed the14 examination. The examination is based on the15 learning outcomes of the provincial curriculum.16 Q And does having written a Grade 12 provincial exam17 prove a student attended Grade 12?18 A They could have been in grade 11 when they wrote19 the Grade 12 exam. Do you want me to repeat that?20 Q No, sorry. Excuse me.21 And so in order to write a provincial exam at22 an independent school is it true that that school23 must be a group 1, 2 or 4 school?24 A A student -- a group 3 -- a student in a group 325 portion of a school could write a provincial exam26 even if the school is not certified for that27 grade. But again the school would receive a --28 the school would receive a -- the student would29 receive a transcript for the examination only.30 Q Now, I'm going to move on to questions specific to31 Bountiful Elementary School and in particular32 reference to paragraphs 19 onwards in your33 affidavit under the heading certification and --34 "Classification and Certification of Bountiful35 Elementary-Secondary School"?36 A 19 and 20?37 Q Yeah, beginning essentially at paragraph 19.38 A Yeah.39 Q Now, you've indicated that you've attended BESS in40 an evaluation kind of context and have you also in41 preparing your affidavit reviewed Ministry files42 in relation to Bountiful Elementary-Secondary43 School?44 A Yes, I have.45 Q At paragraph 19 there you refer to eight external46 evaluations, five follow-up visits resulting from47 evaluations, three monitoring visits and one




1 program evaluation. Can you briefly explain what2 was involved in these.3 A Well, these were inspections generated over the4 years on account of -- well, external evaluations,5 we've already discussed that. Those are regular6 inspections. We do follow-up visits. After an7 external evaluation is conducted we visit a school8 and confirm with them that they have met the9 requirements that are identified as requirements

10 in external evaluation. And monitoring visits, we11 do those regularly as well. And the program12 evaluation of course is conducted when the school

13 wishes to add grades.14 Q Add grades or change the classification?15 A Change classification, right.16 Q And has BESS or Bountiful Elementary-Secondary17 School been evaluated more than the average18 independent school in your experience?19 A Yes, it has. Yes, it has.20 Q And why would that be?21 A There were directions that we received -- that our22 office received from the -- from the Ministry23 and -- which indicated that there may be some24 public concerns regarding the educational program25 at BESS and therefore a team, or an inspector was26 sent in to determine whether there was validity to27 the concerns that were raised, et cetera.28 Q And now, we know that BESS is currently -- the29 Grades 11 and 12 are group 3; they're not 1 or 2.30 Does that mean -- what does it mean about issuing31 Ministry-recognized high school diplomas?32 A We as a Ministry would not issue a dogwood diploma33 to a student who was in a group 3 portion -- a34 group 3 Grade 10, 11 or 12 program.35 Q Now, in your affidavit at paragraph 20 you36 indicate that in 2007 Bountiful37 Elementary-Secondary School applied for a group 138 classification. I take it that was for Grades 1139 and 12?40 A Yes.41 Q And is Exhibit C of your affidavit -- is this the42 letter that was starting the ball rolling, so to43 speak, as to a reclassification?44 A Yes, it was.45 Q So what are they seeking in this -- in August of46 2007?47 A They're seeking to -- to have our Ministry -- our




1 offered in the graduation program were able2 to meet the learning outcomes required in the3 educational standards order.45 Q And what is the BAA courses you refer to in the6 second bullet?7 A BAA courses are board/authority-approved courses.8 They are courses recognized as meeting graduation9 requirements through the Ministry either by virtue

10 of a board, board of education, public, having11 authorized those courses and meeting requirements12 of a template, or an authority. An authority

13 being the governing body of the independent school14 in question.15 Q And is there an authority in relation to the16 Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School?17 A There is.18 Q And what is that authority?19 A The authority is and -- the name of the -- it's a20 non-profit society and I believe it's the21 Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School Society but22 I could be wrong on the official name of that.23 It's a non-profit society anyway that is24 identified as the authority for the school.25 Q And do all independent schools -- are they26 required to have an authority?27 A Yes, group 1 and 2 schools are non-profit28 schools -- are operated by non-profit societies.29 Q Now, the -- on page 29 of the report there's some30 reference to the group 1 classification for31 Grade 10 -- in the kindergarten through Grade 1032 program. What are these comments about?33 A Right. So in doing a program review for Grade 1134 and 12 we also looked at Grade 10, any aspects of35 the Grade 10 program, because Grade 10, 11 and 1236 form the graduation program which leads of course37 to the graduation diploma and the dogwood. And so38 in looking at 11 and 12 we also looked at 10 and39 found that there were some concerns with respect40 to course overviews at the Grade 10 level. And we41 identified that for continued -- for continued42 classification of the Grade 10 a number of things43 would have to be attended to.44 Q Now, and what happened with respect to the Grade45 10 program?46 A They received the letter and they attended to the47 matters in hand and their certification -- their




1 classification for Grade 10 remained intact, as it2 was before.3 Q And Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School ever4 apply after 2007 for reclassification of the5 Grades 11 and 12 to a group 1 or 2 school?6 A No, they didn't.7 Q Now --8 THE COURT: Are you going to be awhile yet?9 MS. GREATHEAD: I'm going to move on to Mormon Hills,

10 My Lord, and maybe it's a good time to take the11 lunch break.12 THE CLERK: Order in court. Court is adjourned until

13 2:00 p.m.1415 (WITNESS STOOD DOWN)16 (NOON RECESS)1718 THE CLERK: Order in court.1920 EDWARD VANDERBOOM, a21 witness for the AGBC,22 recalled.2324 THE COURT: Thank you. Ms. Greathead.25 MS. GREATHEAD: My Lord, thank you.2627 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MS. GREATHEAD:28 Q Just a few more questions, Mr. Vanderboom.29 Now, you also in your affidavit refer to30 Mormon Hills Elementary and Secondary School and31 certification and classification of that school.32 And I'm referring in particular to the -- near the33 end of your affidavit beginning at paragraph 34;34 do you see that?35 A Yes.36 Q Now, in preparing your affidavit did you also37 review the Ministry file in relation to Mormon38 Hills Elementary and Secondary School?39 A Yes.40 Q And do you know how many times that Mormons Hills41 has undergone an external evaluation or monitoring42 visit or program evaluation?43 A Not off the top of my head.44 Q You indicate in your affidavit that Mormon Hills45 recently applied for and was granted group 146 certification for its Grade 11 and 12 program.47 Can you explain what happened?




1 A An inspector went in to look at their Grade 11 and2 12 program and that was in October. I believe3 October 12th, or on around October the 12th of4 2010, and reviewed the Grade 11/12 program and5 determined it met the requirements of the6 educational standards order for and as required7 under the graduation program order.8 Q And what was your role with respect to that9 program evaluation, if anything?

10 A Sure. My role was to receive the evaluation11 report and review it and make a final12 determination with respect to clarification for

13 Grade 11 and 12.14 Q And just a few more questions.15 You told us a bit about the teacher16 certificates and the different teacher17 certificates for group 1, 2 and 4 schools versus18 group 3 schools. This court has also heard19 evidence about teachers teaching at Bountiful20 Elementary-Secondary School on a letter of21 permission. Can you tell us what a letter of22 permission is.23 A Letter of permission is granted to the authority24 of an independent school enabling them to employ25 an individual for the purposes of teaching in an26 independent school that is certified. The27 individual in question does not meet the28 requirements of a -- for a professional29 certificate or perhaps another certificate that30 the -- might be issued by the office of the31 inspector of independent schools, but the32 authority deems that person to be a suitable33 candidate for employment and they have been able34 to demonstrate that they could not find -- through35 advertising find somebody with the required36 qualifications for issuing a different type of37 certificate. So it enables the authority to use38 that person for a one-year period.39 Q So is it your office that issues these letters of40 permission?41 A Yes, it is.42 Q And you mentioned that the authority had to show43 that they advertised and couldn't find someone for44 the position --45 A Yes.46 Q -- before a letter of permission will be issued;47 is that right?




1 A Yes.2 Q And is there any other qualifications or3 requirements that must be met before a letter of4 permission will be issued with respect to a person5 teaching in a group 3 school?6 A The -- there are some other requirements, the7 details of which are on our website. I believe --8 well, there's a fee involved. There's an9 application. There's a -- I believe there's a

10 reference letter to show that the person is fit to11 be working with children. There needs to be12 authorization for conducting a criminal record

13 review. And the person must be a resident of14 Canada or able to work in Canada.15 Q And would your office check to see if this person16 had a high school credential recognized by the17 Ministry such as the dogwood or adult dogwood?18 A Again I would have to defer to the website for the19 detail. I'd have to defer to the website.20 Q And we've heard -- my final question here is going21 to be about group 3 schools and graduating22 students from high school.23 So you've already told us that a group 324 cannot issue a dogwood or an adult dogwood.25 That's correct?26 A Yes.27 Q So if I ran a group 3 school and I met the28 requirements of a group 3 -- that the group 329 classification, would it be possible for me to30 issue the Leah Greathead high school diploma to my31 students?32 A Yes.33 Q And could I issue that to my students at any time?34 Could I give them the high school diploma in35 Grade 6. Is there anything stopping me from doing36 that?37 A No.38 Q Or Grade 8 or 10 or 11?39 A No.40 Q Is there any regulation of that? I take it the41 Ministry wouldn't recognize the Leah Greathead42 high school diploma?43 A It would not be deemed equivalent to a dogwood44 diploma.45 Q Is there any regulation of it at all?46 A No.47 MS. GREATHEAD: Those are my questions.



54Edward Vanderboom (for AGBC)Cross-exam by Ms. Trask

1 here as a personal experience witness. He's2 different than other witnesses we've heard who3 have been in Bountiful, who have left the FLDS.4 He's more like an expert, although not tendered as5 such, and in my respectful submission a direct6 examination of Mr. Vanderboom should remain within7 the confines of his affidavit. And again in my8 respectful submission friendly cross also ought to9 remain within the confines of that affidavit.

10 There can't, in my submission, be much doubt11 that BCTF is taking the same position as the AG of12 BC. This is just a friendly cross. It's another

13 opportunity at direct but without -- without the14 benefit of the notice in the affidavit, and in my15 respectful submission friendly cross ought to16 remain within confines of that except for17 clarification. It ought to touch -- it ought to18 be right on the topics addressed in the affidavit.19 THE COURT: Ms. Trask?20 MS. TRASK: My Lord, as my friend noted this is not an21 expert and Mr. Vanderboom may disagree about22 whether this is a friendly cross or not.23 THE COURT: He may.24 MS. TRASK: And the purpose of what I'm getting at is I25 want to talk about questions regarding the26 inspections and their thoroughness, and I need to27 lay some of the groundwork for that.28 THE COURT: The inspections were covered in the29 affidavit proper.30 MS. TRASK: The inspections were, yes.31 THE COURT: Okay. Well, go ahead and if it appears32 that your friends have been taken by complete33 surprise we can deal with it as we go along.34 MS. TRASK: Thank you.35 Q So you are familiar with the integrated resource36 packages such as this one that I have just given37 to you, which is the Grade 6 social studies IRP?38 A Yes, I am.39 Q And if you can turn to page 14 to 15 of this40 document. This lays out the overview of41 kindergarten to Grade 7, the PLOs for social42 studies. Even though this document is only for43 Grade 6, at the beginning each PLO lays out an44 overview of the elementary school PLOs. And if45 you see here starting in Grade 3 we have -- the46 first skill that's listed under the PLOs is47 critical thinking. That's the same in Grade 4,




1 A Presumably.2 Q Okay. You can put the document aside and I'm3 going to ask you questions sort of based on what4 we just covered.5 THE COURT: Do you want to mark it?6 MS. TRASK: Yes, please. If we can mark that as an7 exhibit.8 THE CLERK: Exhibit 139, My Lord.9

10 EXHIBIT 139: 33 page double-sided p/c Social11 Studies Grade 6 Integrated Resource Package 200612

13 MS. TRASK:14 Q If someone who had completed their Grade 915 education, so that would be they would have16 concluded Grade 6 and three additional years, if17 they told you that when they were in school when18 they learned about the Charter of Rights and19 Freedoms only learned about religious freedom and,20 in fact, they weren't aware that there were any21 other rights in the Charter of Rights and22 Freedoms. Do you think the PLO would have been23 met in that circumstance?24 A Well, I can't -- it's hard for me to comment on25 that whether or not they were taught it and didn't26 remember it or were not taught it. I couldn't27 comment on that.28 MR. DICKSON: I just rise here. I don't -- I don't see29 this in the affidavit and --30 THE COURT: No, it isn't, but it is -- it's building on31 the inspection.32 MS. TRASK: That's right.33 THE COURT: And I don't recall this evidence. Was34 this --35 MS. TRASK: We'll take you to that in our argument. It36 is in evidence.37 THE COURT: Okay.38 MS. TRASK: Truman Oler gave that --39 THE COURT: Right. I had forgotten it. I'm going to40 allow it, but he said it's hard to comment on it41 so he's not able to answer your question.42 MS. TRASK: Okay.43 Q So I would like to ask you some questions about44 the independent school inspections. And you've45 already explained that you appoint the members who46 do the evaluations. You help put together the47 committees; is that correct?




1 A Yes.2 Q And depending on the type of report being written3 there would generally be between one and three4 members?5 A Depending on the size of the school and the extent6 to which the school offers grades we would7 determine how large the team ought to be.8 Q Would it be -- would the team ever be larger than9 three members?

10 A It could be three or four.11 Q And in paragraph 19 of your affidavit you spoke12 about Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School being

13 inspected 17 times in the time period between 199314 and 2010, and I'm not going to take you to all15 those reports but I have reviewed them and I have16 a couple of questions about the process in17 relation to those specific reports. And I18 understand you've reviewed them as well?19 A Yes.20 Q The inspections were between one and two days in21 length?22 A Yes.23 Q And in the majority of these inspections, they24 appear to be planned in advance. In other words,25 the principal would be aware that the inspectors26 were attending the facilities before they arrived?27 A In most cases they likely were not. Most of28 the -- many of the inspections were unannounced.29 Q In the inspection reports that I reviewed I30 only -- of those 17 reports there were only two31 that made a specific mention to the visits being32 unannounced; do you disagree?33 A There could have been more that were unannounced34 but were not identified as unannounced in the35 report. So I could not confirm whether there were36 two. My sense is that there likely were more that37 were unannounced.38 Q In general before an inspection takes place the39 school would fill out an evaluation catalogue for40 independent schools; is that correct?41 A Yes.42 Q I'm just going to provide copies of that document43 as well. If you turn -- this is a double-sided44 document but on the first page on the backside it45 appears it's the principal who fills out this and46 there's a spot for the principal's signature at47 the bottom; that's correct?




1 A Yes.2 Q And I mean, it's a substantial document which it3 seems to me provides you with background4 information before you complete your inspection?5 A Yes.6 Q And if you turn to page 5, you made some reference7 to this this morning. This is the declaration8 that schools need to make that they're in9 compliance with section 1 of the schedule of the

10 Independent School Act, which requires that no11 program is in existence or is proposed at the12 independent school that would in theory or in

13 practice promote or foster doctrines of racial or14 ethnic superiority or persecution, religious15 intolerance or persecution, social change through16 violent action or sedition, and there are other17 requirements there, and at the end that the18 schools establish an educational program for the19 current school year that complies with the20 instructional goals, time and program requirements21 determined by the minister. And similarly at22 page 14, somewhat related to that declaration,23 there's a part there for the school principal to24 fill out how many hours of instruction is25 delivered; that's correct?26 A Yes.27 Q So I take it this document is important for you28 and for the schools to make this declaration29 because, although you go and visit the school and30 do a one- or two-day inspection, you can't be31 there to monitor them every day?32 A Yes.33 Q And so you need a declaration from the school that34 they are complying in this manner?35 A Yes.36 MS. TRASK: Before the lunch break -- sorry, we're done37 with that document. Maybe we can mark that as an38 exhibit as well.39 THE CLERK: Exhibit 140, My Lord.40 THE COURT: Thank you.4142 EXHIBIT 140: 14 page double-sided p/c43 Instructions For Evaluation Catalogue for44 Independent Schools for School Year 2010 - 20114546 MS. TRASK:47 Q Before the lunch break you also spoke about the




1 composition of the inspection committees and you2 mentioned that the individuals who partake can be3 administrators or teachers from the independent4 school system or the public school system?5 A Yes.6 Q And I have only reviewed the -- looking at the 177 inspection reports that are referenced in your8 affidavit, it appears to me that not all of the9 inspectors list their background but many of them

10 do. They say they are principal at a particular11 school. And it appears to me that the majority of12 the inspectors are from the independent school

13 system. Would you agree with that?14 A Likely.15 Q And of the individuals who listed where they come16 from I counted 13 inspectors who were from17 Christian independent schools and three who were18 from public schools. Does that sound correct to19 you?20 A I haven't reviewed it to that detail, but could21 be.22 Q But you would agree that the majority of23 inspectors who you would send to a Christian24 school would also be from a Christian school25 background?26 A Not necessarily.27 Q Is it your recollection with regard to Bountiful28 that that was -- that that is the inspection29 history?30 A No, I probably couldn't speak to that. I can --31 first of all, the 17 visits were not all external32 evaluations in that sense. Some of them were33 follow-up visits, some of them were monitoring34 inspections by the inspector. So there was a35 whole variety within that 17. Many of the -- I've36 been an inspector since 2009. Prior to that time37 I was marginally involved in selecting the teams,38 but the inspectors before me would have been39 people who formulated those teams.40 Q And you were -- before you were an inspector you41 were a deputy inspector?42 A Deputy inspector.43 Q So perhaps just looking at the inspection reports44 that have happened since 2005, because that would45 be what you were most familiar with, there was an46 inspection in 2007 that was conducted by three47 individuals. One was Suzanne Dinwoodie. Are you




1 familiar with her?2 A Yes.3 Q She's an assistant superintendent of human4 resources from Catholic independent schools?5 A Yes.6 Q Gloria Mesdiger [phonetic] who is a Sooke7 assistant superintendent.8 A Yes.9 Q That would be a public school system?

10 A Right.11 Q Tom Elwood is a retired inspector of independent12 schools, and do you know what Tom Elwood's

13 background is?14 A He was a former inspector of independent schools.15 Q What did he come from an independent school?16 A No, he was a Ministry person who came to the17 position at some time in the past.18 Q I see. And in 2008 there was an inspection by19 Wilma Jamieson. Are you familiar with Wilma20 Jamieson?21 A Yes.22 Q And she's from St. Andrews Regional High school23 and that's a Christian school?24 A Catholic school.25 Q Catholic school. And Art Theron who is from the26 Queen of Angels Catholic School?27 A Yes.28 Q And Peter --29 A Froese.30 Q Froese. Thank you. Who is the superintendent of31 the MEI schools, and that's I believe the32 Mennonite?33 A Mennonite Educational Institute.34 Q And the others from 2010 I think they're --35 A Des McKay. Retired superintendent Abbotsford36 school district.37 Q Oh, that's correct. That's the inspection that38 you participated in in 2010 with --39 A No, I did a program evaluation.40 Q Sorry, a program evaluation with --41 A Des McKay was on the same team with Peter Froese I42 believe.43 Q He's not on my list. And the inspection report44 that's attached to your affidavit -- I'm sorry,45 that's not an inspection report. Program46 evaluation, and you participated in that with an47 individual who is from the public school system?




1 A Yes.2 Q And the conclusion of that report was to not3 extend --4 A Yes.5 Q -- the group 1 classification.6 To your knowledge during the various visits to7 the Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School did any8 of the inspectors ever make enquiries regarding9 whether any of the students were married?

10 A I'm not aware of whether they asked that question.11 Q If you were aware that a Grade 9 student was12 married to -- a female Grade 9 student was married

13 to a man in his 40s would that cause you cause for14 concern?15 A It would cause -- give pause for reflection and we16 would likely need to consider what actions we17 would need to take or what further enquiries we18 would need to engage in.19 Q And to your knowledge did any members of the20 evaluation -- any of the evaluation committees21 ever make a report to a child protection worker?22 A I am not aware of whether they did.23 Q So you're not aware of any --24 A Right.25 Q -- that did. Thank you.26 And generally when the inspectors attend at27 the school what I've noticed from the reports is28 that they introduce the principals, they meet with29 the teachers and they may sit in in classes, but30 it doesn't appear that they have much direct31 interaction with students. For instance, they32 wouldn't be spending a lot of time interviewing33 the students while they were doing the inspection;34 is that correct?35 A Some cases there may be some conversation with36 students.37 Q So there may be some conversation in passing?38 A Sure.39 Q But not scheduled interviews?40 A The focus of the inspection is as indicated.41 Q And are you aware that last year at the end of the42 school year public school systems across the43 province laid off a lot of teachers? There were a44 lot of unemployed and underemployed teachers at45 the end of last school year?46 A Yes.47 Q And the letter of permission that your office can




1 grant needs to be reviewed -- or it needs to be2 renewed annually?3 A Yes.4 Q And you've already noted that there -- the5 authority has to demonstrate that they have made6 repeated local and province-wide advertising in a7 publication likely to reach potential candidates8 and has failed to attract a suitable teacher9 holding a valid BC teachers certificate?

10 A Yes.

11 Q And the evidence in this proceeding is that there12 is at least one teacher in Bountiful who is on a13 letter of permission, and are you aware whether14 the authority complied with the obligation to15 advertise for a suitable teacher?16 A They would have.17 Q I'm not sure if you were in the courtroom this18 morning when there was some -- there was some19 questions around the foundation skills20 assessments. You're aware of the foundation21 skills assessments?22 A I am aware of them.23 Q And you're aware generally that there is24 controversy around the foundation skills25 assessments?26 A Yes.27 THE COURT: Well, are we fighting other battles here,28 or potential battles? Out of work public school29 teachers. Controversial --30 MR. JONES: Can you order her to only do friendly31 cross.32 THE COURT: Or controversial FSA issues?33 MS. TRASK: My Lordship, we hadn't given notice to34 cross-examine Mr. Munro this morning and the35 foundation skills assessment information was36 brought into evidence, and Mr. Vanderboom is an37 educator and I thought he might be able to speak38 to it, but I can move on.39 THE COURT: Go ahead. Go ahead.40 MS. TRASK:41 Q So you are -- you're aware generally there's42 controversy around the FSAs and around the results43 and use of the FSAs?44 A Yes.45 Q And that there's controversy around high stakes46 testing in general?47 A Yes.




1 THE COURT: High stakes testing?2 MS. TRASK:3 Q Can you describe high stakes testing or I can --4 A Maybe since you asked the question you can5 describe what you mean by that.6 Q High stakes testing meaning testing where there is7 something that rides on the testing such as8 funding, or some people have described the Fraser9 Institute ranking as making the foundation skills

10 testing high stakes testing.11 A So the question is then?12 Q Are you familiar with the controversy around high

13 stakes testing in general, and maybe I can ask you14 something more specific. There has been a lot of15 controversy around high stakes testing and16 cheating on testing where there's a lot riding on17 the results. Are you aware of that?18 A I'm aware that there is public debate around FSA19 results. I'm aware that some schools and parents20 put a lot of weight on FSA scores and others21 don't. Whether that's considered high stakes or22 not, I don't know. I couldn't speak to that. It23 depends on the school. It depends on their24 values. It depends on how important they would25 consider those tests to be. So I couldn't speak26 to that part of it.27 Q Okay. And you said that you became the deputy28 inspector in 2005 and before that you were the29 principal at Credo Christian High School in30 Langley; is that correct?31 A Yes.32 Q From 1981 until 2005?33 A Yes.34 Q Does that sound right? And when you were the35 principal there you oversaw a school newsletter;36 is that correct?37 A Yes.38 Q And you would write a piece of commentary on the39 first page of the newsletter?40 A Frequently.41 Q And that newsletter would go home to parents with42 students?43 A Yes.44 Q And did the newsletter go home in a sealed45 envelope or was it just handed out and students46 would fold it up and put it in their backpacks?47 A It didn't generally wouldn't go home with




1 students. It would be circulated through other2 community networks.3 Q So it wasn't handed out to students?4 A No, actually it wasn't. It went to -- it was5 handed out in church communities where the parents6 of the church communities would be the parents who7 sent their children to the school.8 Q I see. Were students expected to read the9 newsletter?

10 A If they wished to.11 THE COURT: Now, just before we give it to the witness,12 Mr. Dickson's point is getting better and better.

13 MS. TRASK: This is my last area of questioning and it14 goes to credibility, My Lord.15 THE COURT: Oh. Credibility? Okay. Well ...16 MR. DICKSON: I have to say that my friend's point that17 this cross is not so friendly is getting better18 and better as well.19 THE COURT: Everyone is learning something today.20 MR. DICKSON: Very educational.21 THE COURT: I'm learning that I couldn't pass the Grade22 6 social studies. It's tough stuff.23 MS. TRASK: That's why we have that show "Smarter than24 a Fifth Grader"; right?25 Q So do you recognize this as an article that you26 wrote for the school newsletter?27 A Yes.28 Q And you could see this was in February 2005, so I29 guess shortly before you left the school as30 principal. So if you look at the fourth paragraph31 here it says:3233 Some point to the introduction of the Charter34 as the time when things really started to35 fall apart with Canadian society. Perhaps36 they are right. Hindsight has a way of37 bringing the past into focus.3839 And then down below you seem to be talking about40 sexual orientation and the curriculum. So when41 you are talking here about the Canadian society42 falling apart you are referring to case law that43 recognized rights of certain groups, particularly44 sexual orientation case law; is that correct?45 A Probably not case law. I don't avail myself of46 case law generally.47 Q So were you referring to claims that individuals




1 would have made that they had particular Charter2 rights?3 A Maybe you could rephrase or back up -- back me up4 a little bit here.5 Q Sure.6 A Your specific question is?7 Q When are you referring to Canadian society, the8 introduction of the Charter is the time when9 Canadian society started to fall apart, the rest

10 of the article seems to be about sexual11 orientation and curriculum. So when you refer to12 the introduction of the Charter as the time when

13 things really started to fall apart with Canadian14 society are you referring to the assertion of15 rights around sexual orientation?16 A Well, I am saying some point to the introduction17 of the Charter as the time, so I am raising this18 as a point of conversation and discussion.19 Whether -- whether I believe that to be true or20 not is quite another matter.21 Q Right. Although you say "perhaps they are right.22 Hindsight has a way of bringing the past into23 focus"?24 A Sure. Perhaps.25 Q So upon reflection do you think this is an26 appropriate newsletters for an independent school27 principal to be sending out?28 A Well, I would have to read it again to answer this29 yes or no. I wrote this in 2005. Whether I would30 still believe this to be true or whether I would31 write this in a different way is a matter that32 would require further reflection on my part.33 Q So perhaps your view has changed since 2005?34 A Perhaps.35 MS. TRASK: Could we have this marked as an exhibit,36 My Lord.37 THE COURT: Yes.38 THE CLERK: Exhibit 141, My Lord.3940 EXHIBIT 141: 3 page double-sided p/c Newsletter41 of Credo Christian High School dated February 6,42 20054344 MS. TRASK: Those are all of my questions.45 THE COURT: Thank you. Any of the parties that passed46 on cross-examination have the right to pursue it47 if they wish, if there was anything in that that




1 exercised them. No? Thank you. I'm giving the2 opportunity of people who passed on cross to ask3 questions if they wished. Hearing none,4 Ms. Greathead, any redirect?5 MR. JONES: I see --6 THE COURT: I beg your pardon. Mr. Siren?7 MR. SIREN: Yes. There will be further cross. I8 understand there will be further friendly cross9 tomorrow morning so perhaps it's best if I go

10 after that.11 MR. JONES: Well, I'm battling with the definition of12 friendly cross, My Lord, but we expected the BCTF

13 and the Asper Centre to be unfriendly, certainly14 on the issues that they want to cross-examine on.15 I don't think we're on the same side at all.16 Because of counsel scheduling we put17 Mr. Vanderboom to go over into the morning just to18 accommodate the Asper Centre. I honestly don't19 think there's any prejudice to my friends in20 having Mr. Siren proceed today and then just using21 that half an hour in the morning so that we free22 up the rest of the day for Mr. Klette. And23 perhaps they could be given leave to --24 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Siren may not have prepared.25 MR. SIREN: No, I am prepared. I'm under the26 understanding that real cross has gone after the27 friendly cross in this proceeding, although I28 haven't been here. But I'm happy to go now29 although my preference would be probably to go30 after the friendly cross. But I'm in your hands,31 My Lord.32 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Dickson, did you have anything to33 say?34 MR. DICKSON: Well, it may be that the issue could be35 addressed by leave to Mr. Siren to ask further36 questions after, but I do support the notion37 that -- I mean, we know which side people are on38 generally. I don't know what Mr. Olthuis is going39 to ask tomorrow. I didn't know what Ms. Trask was40 going to ask here today clearly. And we did adopt41 the practice that -- sort of partway through we42 adopted the practice that people on the same side43 would have to go before the opposite side.44 THE COURT: Well, in the interests of using the time45 efficiently, though, I would ask, Mr. Siren, if46 you would, and we'll give you the right as47 Mr. Dickson suggested to supplement any cross you



69Edward Vanderboom (for AGBC)Cross-exam by Mr. Siren

1 are learning foundation skills in reading,2 comprehension and numeracy. Sorry, I phrased that3 very poorly. Three skills are reading4 comprehension, writing and numeracy?5 A Yes.6 Q And the main purpose of the assessment is to help7 provide -- or to help province school districts,8 schools and school planning councils evaluate how9 well students are achieving basic skills?

10 A Yes.11 MR. SIREN: My Lord, could we have this marked as the12 next exhibit.

13 THE CLERK: Exhibit 142, My Lord.1415 EXHIBIT 142: 1 page p/c document from the BC16 Ministry of Education titled "Foundation Skills17 Assessment (FSA)" dated 2/8/2011 at bottom right18 corner1920 MR. SIREN:21 Q There's also some talk earlier today about the22 inspections that you participated in, or other23 people at the Ministry have participated in, in24 regard to BESS. And when I say BESS I'm talking25 about Bountiful; correct?26 A Yes.27 Q All right. And in direct you mentioned that BESS28 had undergone more inspections than is required by29 law; is that right?30 A I'm not sure that we said that.31 Q All right.32 A More inspections than other schools might have33 had.34 Q Okay. And there are, as I understand it from35 reading through your affidavit, basic requirements36 for how often the Ministry must inspect37 independent curriculum schools; is that correct?38 A There's a minimum requirement with respect to39 inspections. There's not a maximum requirement.40 Q Correct. And in this case I understood, and I41 could be wrong, that the inspections had far42 exceeded that number; is that right?43 A Yes.44 Q And in the past 18 years of inspections of BESS,45 for both group 1 for the grades that are relevant46 and for group 3 Grades 11 and 12, BESS has47 consistently met the statutory requirements?




1 A It's -- yes. Now, let me -- let me maybe rephrase2 that. When we go in and do an inspection we may3 identify some things that the school needs to do4 to ensure that it remains in compliance and there5 might be a statutory item which the school is6 given some time to address. Usually the statutory7 items are, we say address them by December the8 15th of the current year and then the school9 always does.

10 Q And so in this case BESS has always done that?11 A Yes, yeah.12 Q Are group 3 schools required to have BC certified

13 teachers?14 A No.15 Q And I understand that the instructional -- the16 number of hours that must be provided by schools17 other than group 3 schools is 850; is that right?18 A Yes. Overall.19 Q Now, are group 3 schools required to provide that20 number of hours?21 A No. 850 -- also for seniors -- for a graduation22 program means a minimum of 100 hours per 4 credit23 course.24 Q Okay. In 2007 BESS applied to the Ministry, and25 we have discussed this or you discussed this26 earlier, to have its Grade 11, 12 class classified27 as a group 1 school, and you participated in that28 inspection; is that correct?29 A Yes.30 Q And the visit in this case was unannounced?31 A Yes.32 Q And upon inspection the Ministry learned that all33 of the teachers who would teach in Grades 11 and34 12 were BC certified teachers; is that correct?35 A I believe so. I don't have it in front of me.36 But should I --37 Q Sure. Let's go to your exhibit, sir. Go to38 Exhibit D, page 26.39 A Yes.40 Q And under paragraph 3 it says:4142 There are currently four teachers who43 participate in offering instruction for44 students in Grades 11 and 12. All of the45 teachers are BC certified and have46 satisfactory criminal record checks.47




1 A Yes.2 Q And the provincial exam scores written by BESS3 students in Social Studies 11, Math 10, English 104 were considerably higher than the province5 average; is that correct?6 A I haven't reviewed those.7 Q Perhaps you could turn to page 28 of your8 affidavit. And it's one, two, three, four, five9 paragraphs down and I will read it aloud.

1011 As a group 3 school students have written12 provincial examination in Social Studies 11,

13 Essentials of Math 10, English 10, and14 Principles of Math 10 during the last15 academic year. While group 3 schools are16 unable to award a school mark the inspection17 team noted that average exam scores for all18 of these course were considerably higher than19 the province exam scores.2021 A You're correct. I did view them at that time. My22 question -- your question was in my mind more in23 general terms whether I would have noticed this.24 But indeed I did look at that and did note that at25 that time.26 Q I will take you to page 27, and this has to do27 with the instructional hours. And six down, so28 the second paragraph under "Educational Program."29 It says?3031 Instruction for Grades 10 to 12 at BESS32 starts at 8:25 a.m. and finishes at 3 p.m.33 over a four-day week and continues from the34 beginning of September until the end of May.35 During each day there are seven 55-minute36 periods, there 146 instructional days over37 the year.3839 I have done the math and it looks like there's40 936 hours provided, and if I'm correct in doing41 the math that exceeds the Ministry's requirements;42 is that right?43 A For overall time, yes.44 Q And again, a group 3 school isn't even required to45 meet those requirements; is that right?46 A Right.47 Q Finally I want to turn your attention to




1 paragraph 29 of your affidavit, sir. And in this2 case you're referring to Exhibit I and if you want3 to look at Exhibit I in Mr. Munro's affidavit it's4 the same. Exhibit I is on page 81 and it shows5 the head counts for Bountiful Elementary-Secondary6 School starting in '02 and going to last year.7 And do you have that graph, sir?8 A I have page 81.9 Q All right. And I call it a graph, and it appears

10 as though there are fewer students in each11 successive year. And you have noted the totals in12 paragraph 29 being 59 in Grade 10, 40 in Grade 11

13 and 11 in Grade 12.14 Now you don't have any personal knowledge as15 to why there fewer students?16 A No.17 Q And there are a number of reasons why there may be18 fewer students; correct?19 A Likely.20 Q So a student, of course, could drop out of school?21 A Yes.22 Q And they could transfer in from another school in23 which case it would appear higher the following24 year; is that right?25 A Could.26 Q And if they transferred out of this school and27 attended Mormon Hills it would look like there's28 one less student?29 A Yes.30 Q And if a student were to graduate early after31 attending Grade 11 it would look as though they32 didn't attend Grade 12; is that right?33 A Could, yes.34 Q And you can't determine by looking at this graph35 what the cause is --36 A No.37 Q -- in this reduction. And finally with respect to38 secondary ungraded students you'll notice there39 are five on page 81. We have heard some evidence40 about secondary ungraded students and I understand41 that to be if a student isn't in an actual grade42 itself, he might be taking courses from Grade 1043 and Grade 11 at once for example; is that right?44 A Yes.45 Q And this could be because of cognitive limitations46 or other reasons; is that right?47 A Yes.



74Certification

1 dated Jan 28, 2011]23 MR. JONES: And then the remaining affidavits we'll4 deal with tomorrow, My Lord. There's been one5 thing that I've been discussing with my friends,6 the Isbister 4 affidavit which is supplementary7 Brandeis brief materials.8 THE COURT: Right.9 MR. JONES: My friends have indicated a concern that we

10 were under inclusive with respect to that and so11 they are going to be preparing another affidavit12 tomorrow attaching some additional materials, to

13 which we have no objection. But we'll put all14 that in together tomorrow.15 THE COURT: Thank you. Anything else?16 MR. DICKSON: No, My Lord.17 THE COURT: Thank you very much.18 THE CLERK: Order in court. Court is adjourned to19 Wednesday February 9th, 2011 at 10 a.m.2021 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3 P.M.)2223 I, Spencer J. Charest, Official Reporter24 in the Province of British Columbia, Canada,25 do hereby certify:2627 That the proceedings were taken down by28 me in shorthand at the time and place herein29 set forth and thereafter transcribed, and the30 same is a true and correct and complete31 transcript of said proceedings to the best of32 my skill and ability.3334 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto35 subscribed my name this 1st day of March36 2011.373839

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