Branding from the Inside Out – Malcolm Levene

Oge: Hi, everyone; and a warm welcome to our personal branding tele-summit with myself, Oge Okosieme, and my co-host, Nick Williams. Hi, Nick.

Nick: Hi, hi. So good to be here.

Oge: Yep, again, this is cool. Today we have got Malcolm Levene on the line with us. Malcolm is a personal branding expert. Hi, Malcolm.

Malcolm: Hello.

Oge: And welcome, and thank you for taking time out to spend time with us today.

Malcolm: Pleasure. Well, it better be. No, I’m just joking.

Oge: Malcolm – no, it’s alright. My first question to you, Malcolm, is why do you think personal branding is so important in today’s world.

Malcolm: There’s a quote that was from Jeff Bezos, I think that’s how you pronounce his name, the founder of Amazon; and the quote is, “your personal brand is what others say about you when you’re not in the room”. And if we use that as an underpinning for this conversation, I think what he’s referring to, and what I’m referring to is our reputation. And therefore, in these days, reputation is to be stellar, shiny, reliable, full of all the things that we want it to be; and therefore, personal branding is probably more important than it ever has been. Does that answer your question?

Oge: Yeah.

Nick: Yeah, and I wonder if you had any thoughts on what were the kind of forces and a way that are making it even more important. Do you have a perspective on that? I guess those things have always been important, but why today more than ever?

Malcolm: I think the last three or four years, Nick, of the shenanigans that’s been going on in the business world, and the world, culturally, have brought to surface how important it is that we, as human beings, act and behave as such; and that we give ourselves, all of ourselves to what we do, not just the one side, i.e. our left or our right brain. Or as I put, in a number of workshops I run, a lot of business people at the top end of the business are working within what I call the “Jekyll and Hyde” context. So they’re one person at work, another person at home; and to try and answer your question more specifically, I think if we are less of ourselves, fully who we are, we can’t succeed as we could or should, and therefore – I don’t know, does that kind of make sense?

Nick: Yeah.

Malcolm: I’m saying let’s have it all on display; not the bad things, all the best bits.

Nick: Two words are coming to mind from what you’re sharing, from the business context of what you’re sharing; I’m wondering if the world is hungry to know who they can trust. So is personal branding like a trust mechanism, in a way?

Malcolm: Well, yes. The interpretation, the meaning in the dictionary meaning – there’s a lot of dictionary meanings; honest, real, and the one I like the best is: undisputed integrity. So branding is about establishing trust and integrity, and about being authentic, by the sound of it. So authenticity is important, but I think it’s become too much of a catch word, and a bit too fashionable in terms of what a lot of people consider what authentic is. A lot of people would say, in the business world, it’s just me being me. Well it isn’t. It’s you being your best you, the you you are most proud of. The aspect of you that you know has universal appeal, not just appeal for you.

Nick: Great. In some of the conversations we’ve been having with other people, and I wondered what you thought about this; it seems to be emerging that a lot of people are saying to really create a fantastic brand for yourself, you really got to develop a level of self-awareness, and self-knowledge, you really got to know yourself. Would you agree with that?

Malcolm: I agree with that, but I think for a lot of people who are perhaps more left brain thinking than right brain, in that they are very ordered, very calculated, very scientifically based, that would be something that they wouldn’t consider to be important, and would be more challenging for them.

Nick: Yeah.

Malcolm: So, the right brain people, I don’t know if you’re right brain or left brain; in fact, why don’t we do an exercise now to figure out if either of you are right brain or left brain, and the listeners can do the same exercise. It will help enormously to understand where your preference is in terms of how you like to think.

Oge: Ok.

Malcolm: Are you holding phones?

Nick: Yeah.

Oge: I’m not.

Malcolm: Ok, for you who are not, just lace your fingers together.

Oge: Ok.

Malcolm: Is your left thumb residing over your right thumb? Or is your right thumb residing over your left thumb?

Oge: My right thumb is residing over my left thumb.

Malcolm: So that would indicate, this is an exercise devised by professor Wiseman at the University of Hertfordshire; it would indicate strongly that you’re more left brain.

Oge: Ok, and what does that mean?

Malcolm: It means that you like order, you like things to be in a particular way, your imagination is not limited, but perhaps restricted to knowing how we’re going to get to that outcome rather than believing that we’ll get there just because we will.

Oge: Ok, ok.

Malcolm: Does that make sense?

Oge: Some of it does, some of it does, yeah.

Malcolm: Tell me which part doesn’t.

Oge: Well, the bit that doesn’t is the imagination, because one of my things that my imagination does tend to run wild, so I tend to use the, what you described, the control bit to bring it back into order. So the order resonates, but my imagination does run wild.

Malcolm: But you say that you do bring it back into order? So that’s your left brain activating and working in a way that a lot of people; my for instance is my right brain is very, very active, my left brain is less active than I’d like it to be, so I have to work harder to bring it to order, for instance, my diary mess-up this morning.

Oge: Ok.

Malcolm: That’s a typical right brain thing.

Oge: Ok.

Malcolm: Does that make sense?

Oge: Yes it does.

Malcolm: A left brain person would have less of a challenge than that with me, and wouldn’t understand, depending on how left brain you are, by the way, there’s not one side fits all, so depending on your level of left brain or right brain-ness, you will have a challenge understanding how the other person thinks. But if we understand, now I understand that you are more left brain

than right brain, I would understand and would be able to speak to you in a way that would connect with that part of your brain. Does that make sense?

Oge: Yes it does.

Malcolm: So, when we met originally, you were asking about how we make a first impressing within the first ten seconds, you wanted to have some evidence to support that. That’s a very, with respect, left brain way to see that. Does that make sense?

Oge: It does.

Malcolm: I don’t suggest you didn’t believe me, but you just needed some evidence. And what I’m saying is, Nick, Oge, once we understand where our brain is veering toward, or its preference, we can work on the other side to make sure that there’s a little bit of evenness between both sides of our brain. So the point of your awareness, Nick, the point about awareness, it’s a right brain function.

Oge: Ok. And interestingly, as we’ve been speaking, I’ve noticed that my thumb has changed position, so, I just thought I would say that. Just looked down now, and my thumb has changed position, so perhaps there is also something to do there about the circumstances you’re in tapping into those different sides.

Malcolm: That could be. I do know over the years, after I’ve done this exercise, I do it three or four times a year just to check, I’m becoming more comfortable with my right thumb over my left thumb because I’ve worked very hard to develop my left and right brains because I need to for business reasons, and for my own, personal satisfaction.

Oge: Ok. Interesting exercise. Nick?

Nick: Yeah?

Oge: Any questions? Any follow-up questions on that?

Nick: Not particularly on that, no. I’d kind of like to get into more the idea of brand and how we create it. So, what’s, just so people know, Malcolm, what’s the kind of major thrust of your work? You do a lot of kind of corporate and organizational stuff, and you work with individuals?

Malcolm: I do, I work with ___ large corporations, I now am working with SMEs, small to medium enterprises, and a lot of private clients come in to me; not a lot, a lot more private clients are coming to me for a personal branding coaching session. In fact, this morning I was with a local estate agents, who are very successful by the way, they’re based in Hampstead, who, and I’m running a personal branding workshop for them tomorrow morning; and I asked the director, who’s a pretty hard-hitting – you know what they’re like in the property business, it’s all about the money, and all about getting it quickly, and it’s aggressive, and assertive, and it’s all the things I don’t believe are the way to go to enjoy a personal brand, or to help a personal brand –

and I said to him “what is it that you want to, as an outcome tomorrow, with these twelve people that are invited to this personal branding workshop?”, and he said, “Malcolm, I want them to be more human. I want them to be nicer to each other. I want them to be more empathetic. I want them to be more like human beings.” And I thought that was interesting for a business like that. And I think, Nick, that that’s the direction that the world is going. I think we’re going towards the direction where we need to be kinder, to be more empathetic, to be more communicative in terms of human beings, and to not have what I call a “Jekyll and Hyde” syndrome running our lives because one or the other will show up. Which one, Nick, was the bad one? Mr. Hyde, wasn’t it?

Nick: I think so. I don’t know the answer.

Malcolm: I think Mr. Hyde was the wicked one, and what will happen is Mr, or Mrs Hyde will show up when you least expect it to; and I’m saying that incongruency will damage your personal brand, and will have people think less of you than more of you.

Nick: I’m curious, can I just ask one more question Oge?

Oge: Yeah, go on.

Nick: Is just what you find personally fulfilling about being a personal branding expert; what kind of lights you up about it? What do you love about doing the work that you do?

Malcolm: Oh, gosh. What do I love about it? I love what I do, I believe in it entirely, and I really am, I feel a lot of joy when I see somebody making improvements in their lives and being more who they are on the inside out.

Nick: Alright, beautiful.

Oge: Yeah.

Malcolm: I mean, there’s a wonderful video, YouTube video of the actor-comedian, Jim Carrey talking about spiritual intelligence, which is key to my work, by the way – SQ, EQ, and a bit of IQ. And he talked about spiritual intelligence this way; he said, I think maybe, this answers your question, Nick, in ways that I’m not entirely sure are accurate, but feel right, it feels right. He said, for him, healing is what spiritual intelligence means, and I believe that if we heal ourselves, and can do a little bit of that for others, we’re doing a wonderful thing for the world. A wonderful thing for the world, and a wonderful thing for us. Did you know what I mean?

Nick: I totally agree, and I was surprised to hear you say it, given some of your kind of clients –

Malcolm: Right.

Nick: And are those some of the conversations you’d have with your clients, or those maps of the world that you have?

Malcolm: Funny enough, I had a client a year ago, he is, was, and probably is a B listed celebrity, interviewed on BBC, and various other areas of the media, and I taught him about spiritual intelligence, and he looked at me and said, “I don’t do religion.” And I said, “nor do I”. Spiritual intelligence has little or nothing to do with religion, it’s about choosing to do the right thing, even if there’s nothing in it for you, than doing the wrong thing. And he quietened down, nodded, and saw that that aspect of improving oneself is pivotal. So, Nick, the answer to your question is, I think people are – I was at this bank, Deutsch bank actually, maybe I shouldn’t be saying this publicly, but I was at a bank –

Nick: We’ll edit that bit out.

Malcolm: Sorry?

Nick: We’ll edit that bit out.

Malcolm: Ok. And the lady who is a fairly high level banking executive told me that she had been reading books like The Power of Now, ___ book, The Secret, which I haven’t read, and various books; and I was a little bit surprised because it’s not what you’d expect, you might expect them to read Black Swan, or something, or Malcolm Gladwell, and Blink, something of that ilk. But there seems to be a movement towards spiritual intelligence, having more meaning in your life—

Nick: Yeah, I think that’s what I’d say, meaning.

Malcolm: ___ continuing to get, and being able to let go of the material obsessions, or obsession for the material wealth, and have something more richly embedded in you.

Oge: How does that perspective, Malcolm, sit with your business clients?

Malcolm: Better, and better. Because if they’re not willing to go that direction, Oge, I’m not the right person for them.

Oge: Yeah.

Malcolm: ‘Cause my spiritual journey has been in place for many, many years, and I’ve kept it very quiet, because I don’t believe it’s something I should necessarily talk about; but I think the timing is right to talk about it, and to act upon it.

Oge: What does acting upon it mean, how does that present itself?

Malcolm: Personally, or generically?

Oge: It’s just generically, even in terms of the personal branding.

Malcolm: Well, I think it comes back to Nick’s point about awareness; it’s about being aware that the impact that your actions have.

Oge: Yeah, yeah.

Malcolm: It’s about saying things that you would otherwise you would not risk saying because somebody might think that you’re a bit doolally, or a bit fluffy. It’s about being less self-conscious, but being more conscious.

Nick: That’s lovely, yeah.

Oge: Yeah.

Malcolm: And I’m going to an evening this evening, to the Judith Piatkus, who I think Nick knows?

Nick: Oh, yeah. I’m going to be there.

Malcolm: Are you going to be there?

Nick: Yeah.

Malcolm: Oh, well I’ll see you tonight. And it’s about consciousness, and I think spirituality. And I believe that these kind of conversations, these aspects of who we are as human beings are now more to the forefront, I think there’s a less conservative attitude toward talking about them, and I think that they are here in a way that they weren’t three or four years ago; and they are a symptom of what has happened to the world over the last three or four years.

Oge: Yeah.

Nick: The word that’s coming out for me, and we’ve touched on it, is “meaning”. That our brand is about what is meaning to us, and helping create meaning, possibly, as well.

Malcolm: Right, right. And what we can give to the world, what can we add? What can we add, what can we bring? And believing that we have within us the ability to bring really good things.

Oge: I think for me, that’s what standing out and becoming more clearer is that belief that we have our own unique gifts to give to the world, and in a sense, that we all do have a purpose, and our brand is encoded within that purpose.

Malcolm: I think that’s very well said. I think that you’re absolutely right.

Nick: Or, our brand is the expression of what’s encoded in us, really, it’s much bigger.

Malcolm: Well, you know, up until about three or four years ago, I was known as a personal development coach, and then everything changed because personal development in the business world became a “nice to have”. And I’m sure both of you know, we all want to be known as a “must have”. And because 99% of my work was in the banking industry, everything fell apart. And although I shouldn’t have taken it personally, I bloody well did.

Oge: Yeah.

Malcolm: Who would knew that an industry would collapse? Anyway, so I had to make some very significant changes to my brand because as I was pitching, as I was speaking to businesses, I was hearing “great, but we don’t have a budget for that”. What I did discover what they had a budget for was personal branding.

Oge: Did they call it personal branding at the time, Malcolm?

Malcolm: They did.

Oge: Ok.

Malcolm: A few of them did, not a lot, but enough to indicate that I would be advised to rebrand myself a personal branding expert; one: to get more business, and two: to be in the game, or back in the game.

Nick: So what did they see the benefit of personal branding as being then? Was it for the organization, or was it for the individuals in the organization?

Malcolm: They saw it as an individual gain, and a gain for the business. Two-pronged requirement. And basically, I’m doing what I’ve been doing for twenty years, I’ve just got a different title. I haven’t changed anything that I’ve done, my coaching practice is exactly the same, my workshops are the same, everything’s the same; but that’s where a personal brand can make you or break you. However, now that I’m known as a personal branding expert, and have been for the past three or four years, I’m more comfortable with that than I was because it’s authentically what I’m doing. If it were not, I wouldn’t be able to do it effectively, and I probably wouldn’t have as many business clients as I have, but because I believe what I’m doing has integrity as the underpinning, authenticity, and I believe that personal branding is pivotal in the days that we’re currently living in, absolutely pivotal.

Oge: Someone listening to this, Malcolm, going “ok, what steps do I take to uncover my brand?”, can you share with us some steps that person can start to take right now to uncover their brand?

Malcolm: Well, I would do my best, uncover your brand; I think you really have to know what your intention, your purpose is in life.

Oge: Yeah.

Malcolm: I think once you know your intention and purpose, what will happen is your goals will emerge as if they were coming from the ether to sit in front of your face. Does that make sense?

Oge: Yes, it does.

Malcolm: A lot of people work with goals, I’ve never worked with goals, I’ve tried, they haven’t worked for me, and I don’t think in the context of my work, they don’t work for my clients. So your intention is, and your purpose. Then you talk—

Nick: Can I just ask another question then, Malcolm?

Malcolm: Sure.

Nick: Would you describe that as getting to the heart of your why, in a way, the why you’re doing things? Because we were chatting earlier about a book called Start with Why. I don’t know if you know it, by Simon Sinek.

Malcolm: I know of the book, yes.

Nick: Yeah. So are you saying that your clients to start looking at why they do what they do before they look at what they do?

Malcolm: I think that’s a good way to start, but for me, my intention and purpose changes according to the context of the business or the individual I’m working with. Although the core of my intention is to communicate, and my purpose is to teach; so with those two things in mind, I’m coming from a fairly strong underpinning, and that will inform my behaviour. And the other thing that is important to me, and I think to discover your brand is, what are you passionate about it life? What do you really care about? What things do you love? What things do you not love? Because in the way that I work, we have two brands, we have an inner brand, and an outer brand. Our inner brand, in many ways, is based on our values, our beliefs, what we stand for, what we won’t stand for, and what we believe is absolutely right for human kind. Most people keep those things secret. They’re not comfortable sharing those beliefs, and those ways of thinking. And then their outer brand is how we look, how we communicate verbally, the level of our emotional intelligence, our ability to communicate positively, to be upbeat, and how we show ourselves within those vital ten seconds of meeting somebody for the first time; because so often a outcome of a meeting can be determined by the shake of a hand. So what you’re looking for is something between a wet fish and a vice. And it always surprises me how many people don’t know that that’s absolutely vital.So, to discover your personal brand, is a journey that you take; for me, and for most of my clients, it’s about really, really great books.

Oge: Yeah. Any great books you can recommend, Malcolm?

Malcolm: I do have a reading list, and it’s not in front of me, but the book I’ve just finished reading for the second time, is called – hang on a sec, I’ve got it in front of me, here – is The Four Agreements.

Oge: Oh, I’ve read that, that is absolutely brilliant, I really enjoyed that.

Malcolm: Which I really enjoyed. And I’m actually reading, I think you interviewed John Perkins, didn’t you?

Nick: Well, we’re doing that later.

Oge: We will be, yeah.

Malcolm: I’ve finished his book, which I thought was good, I enjoyed that. Eckhart Tolle’s book, I’ve read that twice, I love that. And a book that I read many, many years ago that started my personal journey, it was by a chap called Scott Peck, The Road Less Travelled.

Oge: Yep.

Malcolm: A wonderful, wonderful book. And there’s a man, who in my opinion, had a pretty good personal brand. So, I think to discover your personal brand, you have to be willing to take risk, to say things you feel strongly about and that you know will have a positive impact and will land well around you. I think you need to adopt a positive body language, to stand up straight, stand up tall, with your head held high, and smile because when you smile, you can’t think of anything negative. It’s physiologically impossible. So if I’m in a bad mood or a mood where I’m feeling a little less well than I’d like to feel, frustrated, I just smile. And when you smile, you can’t think of anything negatively, your state will change. So your personal brand is about taking full responsibility for everything that happens to you, even the stuff that doesn’t please you.

Oge: Yeah. That bit about personal responsibility also really resonates with me, Malcolm, it is about, yeah, saying that everything that happens to me from now onwards, I am fully responsible for it.

Malcolm: You are. And there are a lot of people are not comfortable with that because they’d love it to be somebody else’s fault.

Oge: Yeah, it’s stepping away from blame.

Malcolm: Sorry?

Oge: It’s stepping away from blaming as well.

Malcolm: It is stepping away, but it’s also saying, it’s actually disempowering as well, but you’re saying it’s not something I could have done anything about, or could do anything about, so I don’t have that on my to-do list. Well, you do have it in your to-do list, it’s the most important thing on your to-do list is you.

Oge: Yeah.

Malcolm: To better answer your question, I think there are some pivotal, I don’t know if pivotal is the right word, actually, but absolutely vital ingredients to having a personal brand, are universally accepted, and respected. I’ll tell you what those things are in my opinion.

Oge: Yeah.

Nick: Right.

Malcolm: Loads of empathy, loads and loads of empathy, you need to step in other people’s shoes in order to understand how it feels to be them so that you can communicate with them effectively, and be nicer to yourself. You need to forgive yourself and others as often as you can.

Oge: Yeah.

Malcolm: One of the most difficult things I find in the coaching industry, in my coaching practice is asking people to forgive.

Oge: Yeah, just a comment on that, Malcolm, when I work with people, one of the things I do with everyone I work with, is I get them to do a list of everything and everyone they need to forgive, and we do a process of forgiveness. And half them say “what’s this got to do with anything?” initially, and as we go through the process, they see. Because I agree with you, until you go through that process of forgiveness, which is like having a clean slate, then building those, even new, beliefs to help you move forward with your personal branding process. It’s quite difficult. I completely agree with you there. Yeah.

Malcolm: It dissolves anger, to a degree, and it also enables you to be nicer to you because the most important person for you to forgive is yourself.

Oge: Yes.

Malcolm: Because only when you forgive yourself can you really forgive others, and it’s a practice that we need to put into action, as often as we can. I forgive myself perhaps once a day, twice a day, and it’s the habit of doing it that generally builds up this kind of inner strength, self-belief, more confidence; and those are the things that I believe are fundamental in having a proper, strong personal brand.

Nick: It’s kind of liking the self, self-liking, and self-love, and self-acceptance; that core to having a strong personal brand. Is that true?

Malcolm: I think that’s true, and you know, I’ve read Louise Hay’s books, and loads of books in that domain of loving yourself, and Shakti Gawain, and numerous authors over the years, and I still have a personal problem with loving myself. I like who I am, and that to me, builds a bridge to something greater. But if I start with like, I’ve got a really good chance of love.

Oge: Yeah.

Nick: That’s the nursery slopes of love, eh?

Malcolm: Yeah, exactly. I’ve worked with, are you both familiar with NLP?

Nick: Yeah.

Oge: Yes, I am.

Malcolm: Right, I’ve dipped in and out of NLP for a number of years, and I’ve been to Richard Bandler seminars, listened to the tapes, you know, Tony Robbins; I’ve done a lot of that stuff over the years. And the thing that really helped me understand why I’ve never dipped into to it to become practitioner was listening to Richard Wiseman, he’s the person who devised the exercise we just did with the clutching of the hands, and he’s from the University of Hertfordshire, and he’s written and number of books, one which I’ve just picked up called 93 Seconds. And he talks about happiness, and the how-to’s of being a better human being, purely from a scientific place. And he said that he didn’t like, that what he didn’t like about NLP, is you stand in front of the mirror, and you say “I’m a rock star”, “I’m a multi-millionaire”, “I’m hugely famous and successful”, and you employ these so called tactics to build yourself up to who you want to be. And he finds that less comfortable than he would like, and I know including Kelly Holmes, the Olympic gold medalist, was looking at her mirror in her parents’ home in their bedroom, saying to herself at the age of fourteen, “I am a gold medal winner”. And so we know that it has worked for a lot of people. But his point was this, if we look at that as our end goal, “I want to be a very successful, rich human being. I want a house in the Maldives, and I want a flat in Belgrave Square”, or “I have those things”; if we talk ourselves into believing we can have those things, his point is we should look at the first step we’re going to take to get closer to it before we look at the goal. We can look at the goal, but now we have to sit back and say “great, that’s where I want to be. What are the next steps that I’m going to take to get closer to that goal”, and start to visualize, and imagine, and meditate on how we’re going to get there. And I kind of like that. Every morning, there’s an exercise that Marcus ____, who’s the happiness guru at the University of Pennsylvania has put into place, and I would really recommend this exercise to anybody who’s interested in wanting to have a more congruent personal brand. And it’s very simple, and it’s very, very meaningful. Shall I share it with you?

Oge: Yes, please.

Malcolm: Ok, you breathe deeply into your abdomen, so first you breathe consciously, and you are at a place that’s still, that’s quite, relatively relaxed; and you sit in the most meditative position you can muster. It doesn’t have to be perfect, you just sit in the most meditative position that you can. And then you start breathing three times, so you breathe once into your abdomen, 10% more than you would normally, the second breath, 15% more than you would normally, and the third breath, 20% more than you would normally. And on the last out breath, when you’ve got rid of all that rubbish that doesn't need to be in your mind, you think of five things that you are grateful for in your life. And the science behind that is quite robust because what happens is

we release something that’s called dopamine, and dopamine is essentially known as the “happy” hormone. You feel good about your life, you feel as though life treats you well, that life is on your side, and that things are not quite as bad as they were prior to doing this exercise. And I use it with all of my coaching clients, and many of them find it helps them with their sleep, they sleep better, or when they awake, they get to sleep easier by doing this exercise; and generally have a calmer atmosphere about themselves. So in terms of the personal branding question, I think these are the things that we need to do that have the universal things that I believe are absolutely pivotal to help us to create our personal brand that has lasting quality, and that we know because we see it in every part of our body has something about us that’s unique. ‘Cause if you’ve got a personal brand that’s trying to copy somebody else, or considering what they do that’s so special, you’ll lose touch with your core.

Oge: Yeah.

Malcolm: And I think that personal branding actually, in many ways, and I have found this both personally and in business, it’s what we are willing to shed. What are we willing to shed?

Oge: What do you say, Malcolm, about somebody who might be listening is thinking “all this personal branding stuff is about me-me-me-me”, and they’re not comfortable with that?

Malcolm: Yeah, I wrote a blog for Huffington post a while ago, and somebody almost echoed those words, and I can’t remember what I said to him, but he was quite aggressive, actually, a bit prickly in the way that he thought it was “all about me”. And the fact of the matter is it is all about you. And be proud of it because if you can be the best version of you that you can be, you will actually be helping others. You will be somebody others look up to, who others want to be around, who others can learn from. You’ll actually, organically, just be helping the world in ways that you don’t understand yet.

Oge: Yeah.

Malcolm: And you will be healing.

Oge: Ok, Ok.

Nick: Ok. Well, gosh. Anymore questions, Oge?

Oge: Yeah, there’s a lot to think about there, but what does the top personal brand look like to you, Malcolm, in your experience?

Malcolm: Emma Thompson, she’s, for me, a top personal brand. I met Emma years ago, she lives quite close to us, so I see her occasionally. She is, in my opinion, a really fine personal brand.

Oge: And what qualities make her that fine personal brand?

Malcolm: She has loads of humility, she is not full of her star quality self, she is on the board of I think thirteen different charities, and active in each of them, she is kind, in my opinion, she’s thoughtful, she is hugely talented, and she has this incredible attitude of positivity, if there’s such a word, even in times when others wouldn’t. And she looks great, I might see her shopping at White Rose, and you can see what she’s done, she’s dressed herself down in a way that she’s almost invisible, do you know what I mean? Kate, my wife and I would recognize her because we’re always looking at people and studying people, and that’s how we live to a degree, so a lot of people would not quite see her as Emma Thompson, but as a nice lady just doing her shopping. So she has, to come back to the next question, she has a lot of emotional intelligence, and awareness. And I think emotional intelligence is pivotal to anybody who wants a personal brand that they can be proud of.

Nick: It sounds like, you know, a fine brand is a fine human being, really.

Malcolm: Yes. Right, it’s somebody you would like to be around, someone you’d like to have a little of in your life, and you’d like to have some of the qualities that they have. Someone that’s almost quietly iconic.

Nick: So in a way, I’m getting a sense, you talking about shedding yourself in a way, it’s less about creating something, and more about uncovering who you already are.

Oge: Yeah.

Malcolm: Yes, I think that of course it is, yes it is. However, if who you are on the inside is basically good, and has a good heart, thinks well of themselves, thinks well of others, and has an understanding that we are here, we are all in this together, you, Oge, I, and millions of others, we are in this together. I think if those underpinnings are in place, you can shed and reveal that part of you, but if those underpinnings are not in place, you need to do some work on yourself to figure out who you really are.

Nick: To discover who you really are.

Malcolm: And discover, yes. And to let go of the desire to be perfect.

Oge: Yeah.

Malcolm: We can’t be perfect. In a way, it’s an unhelpful aspiration ‘cause it can never be.

Nick: But to be your best self is perfectly comfortable.

Malcolm: You just be the best self you can be today. And to know that you did the right thing today, you know, when the financial crisis occurred about, what, three or four years now? I was riding very high with my business, I was extremely busy, I was earning significant amounts of money, and didn’t have time for, how can I say, other people, not really, I was just too busy.

Oge: Yeah.

Malcolm: So, my emotional intelligence at that time was less buoyed than it has become. And I remember getting home from a very, very long coaching session, it was a whole day session, and I got back to the flat, and stormed in as I used to do, threw my coat off, and dumped my day on my wife, does that make sense? ‘Cause what happened is alalalala, and got it all out, and felt great, went in the shower, got dressed in some casual clothes, and felt relieved. What I hadn’t done was considered that I left that rubbish with my wife.

Oge: Yeah, yeah.

Malcolm: And we talked about it that night, and I have to say it was a pivotal time in me changing to be more considerate of people, well, certainly my wife; understanding that dumping is really, really bad manners without any empathy, selfish, and rude.

Oge: Yeah.

Malcolm: So I think that being aware of other people’s behaviours, it’s about being aware of the impact you have on somebody else. And it’s not just about being you, it’s about being your best you. Most of us, I think, don’t really know what our best us is, ‘cause we’re so busy living a life that really isn’t accurate to who we are.

Nick: Brilliant.

Oge: Yeah. What I’m hearing from this is that the whole personal branding is a obvious thing, it's about being a human being, the best human being you can. I’m almost tempted to take the “personal” out of it, and put “human branding” on there.

Malcolm: Yes it is. I think you’re right, actually. I think it’s about taking a very deep breath, standing back from yourself, and looking at what you do, and say “can I do better?” And what exactly can I do better. Can I arrive at meetings, or sessions with loved ones and be more upbeat? Neither of you want to be around people, as I don’t, I’m sure, that are negative, that are miserable, and are complainers. Would that be true for both of you?

Nick: Sure.

Oge: Yeah, energy suckers, yep.

Malcolm: Energy suckers, right. So, that might signal to you “well, I don’t want to be like that; how can I come across to be the person that I am pretty sure would give that other person the pleasure of my company?”. Now some people might say that’s a bit manipulative. And it is, but if you think about the word, manipulative, one of the dictionary meanings is just “shifting”; so I’m just saying, shift from being the person who doesn’t make the right impact to being the person that has a very high ability of making the right impact. You’ll have a better life, you’ll like yourself better, you’ll have more energy, you’ll feel better about your life; and now with

those underpinnings, you can now start to see your personal brand emerging in ways you couldn’t even imagine.

Oge: Yeah. Do you know what I’m hearing you say, the theme of this, Malcolm, is that the whole personal brand thing, is also about your sense of self, and your sense of self-worth; and until you get that sorted, or, basically, you need to get that sorted first, and then everything else flows out from there.

Malcolm: I think that’s absolutely true, and I think that to a degree because, and the Brits, much less myself included, are very self-conscious, and very reserved. I think there’s a place between being over the top, and under the top. And it’s about being present in who you are, and unless you do this work on yourself, whether it be meditation, yoga, Tai-Chi, reading, workshops, it isn’t going to happen. It isn’t going to happen. There’s a workshop I’m running tomorrow morning with a bunch of very, very hard, how can I say, tough estate agents; I’m going to ask them to meditate for the first three or four minutes of our session, and I wouldn’t have done that four or five years ago, ‘cause I was too self-conscious of what they might think of me.

Nick: Yeah.

Malcolm: Well, that’s what I believe in, my personal brand is developed in a way that I now am more comfortable being who I really am, less self-conscious about being concerned of thinking what other people think of me, ‘cause deep in my heart, I want to do good work. And I do do good work. It takes a while for you to believe that, Oge, it takes a while for you to really fully appreciate your worth.

Oge: I think “appreciate” is the word, yeah.

Malcolm: I think we’re going to have to start wrapping up now.

Nick: Fascinating. So thank you, Malcolm, it’s been wonderful. How can people get in touch with you, how can they find out more about you?

Malcolm: My work site’s been a bit funny lately, but they can, if they – www.malcolmlevene.com, remember it’s e-n-e, not i-n-e, happy to answer any questions anybody has, and feel free to contact me via my website which has my email address. Or they can email me at malcolmlevene.com. And if they go to Huffington Post, the American site, they can have a look at my blogs, and check out what I had to say about personal branding.

Nick: Brilliant.

Oge: Thank you, Malcolm, thank you.

Malcolm: Thank you so much for making a valuable contribution I think a lot of people really relate to and be inspired by, and you provoke, so thank you. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to do my thing.

Nick: Thought provoking and heart provoking at the same time.

Malcolm: Sorry?

Nick: Thought provoking and heart provoking.

Malcolm: I think it is, I like the idea of it being equal measure.

Nick: Yeah.

Oge: Left provoking, right provoking. Ok, alright, Malcolm—

Malcolm: You take care.

Oge: Alright, bye.

Nick: Thanks very much, bye.

Malcolm: Bye.

Oge: Bye.