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Rineke Dijkstra, Golani Brigade, Orevnit, Elyacim, Israel. May 28, 1999, 1999. Color photograph, 70"8" x 59'!e'.

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Jan Estep: How did you first get started inphotography?

Rineke Dijkstra: I was studying to be ateacher for secondary education.

JE: As an art teacher?

RD: Yes. I had a friend who was a photog-rapher (that's how most things work, isn'tit?) and after he showed me what he wasdoing I thought that it would be interestingfor me to try it myself. In the beginningit was very hard for me, as I think it isfor everybody, to ask people to let me takepictures of them. People have reservations.At first I didn't know whether to ask themor not.

JE: When did you get more comfortabletaking pictures?

RD: It just took time. In 1984, when I was25 1 went to this club in Holland. I pho-tographed there, and found it was hard toask people if they would like to pose for me.Because I was so uncertain, people would

you ask five or ten people on the streetwhich person they find interesting, you'll getfive or ten different responses. Beyond that,I always find myself more interested in thequiet ones than in the flamboyant ones.JE: Are the quiet ones more difficult, to getto pose for you?

RD: Yes. It's really difficult sometimes.

JE: By "quiet" do you mean they are moreself-conscious?

RD: They are very shy. One of the firstbeach photos that I took in 1992 was thegirl in the green bathing suit (Kolobrzeg,Poland, 1992; the one that looks like aBotticelli painting). It was very strangebecause it is the only time in my wholecareer that I saw somebody in the dis-tance and thought immediately to myself,"I really need to photograph her."

JE: That picture is part of a series of pho-tographs of people at the beach. At whatpoint in the series did you see her?

coming out of her head. Everything fits.JE: HoW many images of her did you shooto get this one?RD: Only four.

JE: Really? Why so few: because you knewyou had the perfect shot or was that all thfilm you had?RD: I didn't have so much money, andworking with a four-by-five is very expensive, different than a small camera that youcan shoot and shoot and shoot. I juswatched her very carefully. In the beginning it was awful because she was standingall slouched over and then I said. "You havto move your head just slightly." Then shhad it.

JE: During the last two years you have beetraveling to Israel and photographing younmen and women in the army there, botduring their training and induction and during their civilian off-hours. In situations likthis, do you usually shoot so few images?

I STILL FIND ITDIFFICULT SOMETIMES. YOU ARE INTERRUPTINGSOMEBODY'S LIFE AND YOU HAVE TO EXPLAIN WHAT YOU ARE DOINGkind of back away and say, "No, I'm sorry,"shaking their heads.JE: If you're not confident. how will youmake a good picture?RD: I still find if difficult sometimes. Youare interrupting somebody's life and youhave to explain what you are doing.JE: You carry all of your equipment withyou, so you're announcing yourself as aphotographer from the get-go.RD: Yes, I always work on location, and Ihave a big camera, a four-by-five-inch for-mat, and a tripod.JE: What attracts you to someone to wantto photograph them?

RD: It's difficult to explain, but I think it'sthe same for everybody. When you picksomebody out on the street, you think, oh,well, that person has an interesting face. If

RD: The first part of the series was shot inHilton hlead. This was during the secondphase in Poland. It was really strange,because I thought that this would be mybest photo ever. I knew it.JE: Do you still feel that's the case?RD: Yes (laughing).JE: What about that photograph makes itso special?

RD: She is so shy, and at the same timeshe's unconsciously taking the pose from[Sandrol Botticelli's Birth of Venus [from thefifteenth centuryl. It was also unconsciousfor me, because I didn't recognize it at thetime I was making the photo. When I camehome I thought that it reminded me ofsomething. I looked in my history books,and, wow, it's exactly the same pose. That'swhat makes it very special. Also, all ofthe elements in the photo work together:her hair, and the clouds that appear to be

RD: When I'm on location. yes. With thsoldiers in Israel, I shot two or three takessometimes only one, because I don't havmuch time. For the level of concentrationI want from them, after five photos they'vhad enough. They become impatient. Thmoment is always very short-lived. Everything in the shoot comes to that momenand then you lose it again. Sometimes I seit in the camera but very often I see it aftethe film has been developed.

JE: In 1994 you created a series of threphotographs of women who had jusgiven birth: they're shot holding threddish newborn babies tightly againstheir naked bodies standing against nondescript white walls. Ahat was it like to makthese photographs?

RD: With the first one. Julie, Den Haag, ThNetherlands, February 29, 1994, 1 didnknow exactly what was going to happen oif I would be able to take the photograph aall. This photograph was taken right afte

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she gave birth. one hour after. I didn'treally know her: she was a friend of afriend. I was supposed to visit her before[I came to photograph her] but I was calleda few days before my first appointment andwas told that the baby had started to come.JE: She went into labor early?RD: Yes and [once I was at her housel. sit-ting on the couch. I heard her screaming. Ithought. oh no, I can't ask her to do this.JE: Did she know you were there to take aphotograph or her?RD: Yes, but she wras ...JE: ... not thinking of you.RD: No (laughing). It was such a privatemoment. I felt really uncomfortable, but

JE: How did you get the idea for the series?It is such a private event for most people;there are the doctors, nurses, and family,but other than that, few others witness it.RD: In the Netherlands women always givebirth at home, so it's even more private. Afriend of mine gave birth a couple of yearsbefore I started this series, and that's whenI came up with the idea. Following thewhole process of giving birth I saw that themother becomes very introverted.JE: During pregnancy?RD: Yes, but especially during the momentof giving birth, when the baby is coming.I want to show that there are many emo-tions at one moment: so much pain andeffort, then the relief and the happinesscome after that. I think Julie is reallythe best one: she looks like a wild animal,

RD: And full portraits. all kinds of picturesI also photographed writers and artistsBut I always had this problem ...JE: WVas this freelance work?RD: Yes, fo r magazines and Dutch news-papers. For me it was a good school inwhich to learn everything. But I found ivery difficult that my subjects were alwaysso conscious of being photographed. Theyknew exactly how they wanted to be seenwith a specific stance, a certain look.JE: They feel a need to project a certainimage.RD: Exactly. Sometimes I saw them in anunconscious moment and I found it muchmore interesting. But it is very hard to getit for the camera. I did this for six years andI really felt like I wanted to do something

BECAUSE THE CULTURE IS SATURATED WITH SO MANY FASHION ANDADVERTISING IMAGES PEOPLE H''AV'E SUCH AN IMAGE OF HOW THEY WANTTO LOOK. IFM NOT AGAINS THAT, I'M JUST LOOKING FOR SOMETHINGELSE, SOMETHING MORE PERSONAL.the nurse who was there helped me. Italked to her after the baby was born andasked her opinion. I didn't think I couldtake the photo. But she said, "Oh, it's okay.First we'll have coffee, and then we'll takethe photograph, and then we will wash thebaby." This provided some structure, andthat really helped the mother. We did it intw o minutes. In the first take the baby wastoo exposed to the flash, so in the secondone the mother is covering the baby's headwith her hand. protecting it from the light.That's the one I chose as the final image.JE: Ho w did the other tWo photos in theseries go?RD: Saskia [Saskia, Harderwgk, TheNethterlands, March 16, 19941 1 pho-tographed one week after she had her baby.She had a Cesarian section. And Tecla[Tecla, Arnsterdam, The Netherlarnds, May16, 19941 was taken after one day, thoughit was the first time she got out of bed afterhaving her baby. But even after one day itwas quite different for the mother.

protecting the baby. The gesture came verynaturally to her.JE: Do you find that people are lessself-conscious immediately after they'veexperienced something so dranmatic andexhausting? They are swept up in the expe-rience and can't quite control the imagethey're projecting to the camera. Manyof your projects follov this model: thebullfighters photographed post-fight inPortugal: the dancers at the Buzzelub inLiverpool and Mystery World in TheNetherlands: the swimmers on the beachesof Hilton Hlead, Long Island, Odessa, andBelgium: the soldiers in Israel and theFrench Foreign Legion.RD: Yes, it's a process that took years forme to figure out. For many years I workedas a commercial photographer photograph-ing a lot of business men. Business menwere my specialty (laughing).JE: Head shots?

different, to think about how I was usingthe camera. I took two months off, anddidn't think about anything during thewhole time. It was sum.mer so I just had agood rest. But on the last day of these tw omonths I broke my hip in a bicycle acci-dent, Then I had to lay in bed for fivemonths and I couldn't do anything. Life isso fragile, like a thin strip. Something canhappen to you and your whole life canchange. To recover fo r my hip I was swim-ming everyday and then I decided to take aphoto of myself after swimming. That ismore or less the same moment you find innmy other photos. Taking a picture just afterphysical or emotional experience allowsyou to capture a more natural pose. It's notthat I want to get something from some-one they don't want to give or show.It's just more interesting if they are morethemselves, if they don't think about beingphotographed. When you point a camera atsomebody they don't know how to pose orwhat to do with their hands, where tostand. They feel uncomfortable becausethey're thinking about the camera. It's this

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oversize camera I use; it makes everybodyfeel uncomfortable. And these days every-body has a camera. I think for AugustSander, for instance, it was much easier forhim to get this, you know, I don't know theword....

JE: Do you mean authenticity, honesty, ortruth?RD: It's more like being open. But now,because the culture is saturated with somany fashion and advertising images, peoplehave such an image of how they wantto look. I'm not against that, I'm just look-ing for something else, something morepersonal.

JE: You took two group portraits of youngwomen from a high school in Israel taken ayear and a half apart when they are 14 andthen 16 [Danyel, Adi, Shira, Keren, ZeevJunior High School, Herzliya, Israel, April11, 1999 and Danyel, Adi, Shira. Keren,Rishonim High School. Herzliya, Israel,December 17, 20001. Were they critical ofthose images of themselves?RD: This group primarily liked it. But mostof the time people don't like the way theylook in my portraits.JE: Do they tell you?

RD: Yes.

JE: Many of your photographs are of children and teenagers: the swimmers, theclub dancers, and the soldiers. The sol-diers, for instance-the women are pho-tographed on the first day of induction andthe men immediately after a military exercise out in the field-look very young to bein uniforms. What is it about children oradolescents that you like to photograph?Are they less self-conscious than adults?

RD: Yes. Their appearance is more abstracto me.

JE: Abstract?RD: When somebody becomes older they

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CLOCKWISFEROMUPPERE[T Rineke DijkstraMaya, Tel-Hashomer,srael, April 12, 1999, 1999. Color photograph.

Golani Brigade, Orev Unit, Elyacim, Israel, May 26, 1999, 1999. Color photograph.Induction Center,Tel-Iashomer, Israel, April 12, 1999, 1999.Color photograph.

Golani Brigade, Orev Unit, Elyacim, Israel, May 26, 1999, 1999. Color photograph.

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CLOCKWISEFROM UPPERLEFT: ineke DijkstraInduction Center,Tel-Hashomer,srael, April 12, 1999,1999. Color photograph.

Golani Brigade, Orev Unit, Elyacim, Israel, May 26, 1999, 1999. Color photograph.Induction Center,Tel-Hashomer, Israel, April 12, 1999,1999. Color photograph.

Golani Brigade, Orev Unit, Elyacim, Israel, May 26, 1999,1999. Color photograph.

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Rineke Dijkstra, OmriKiryat, Shmonah, Israel, September 25,2000. 2000. Color photograph, 49 /i" x 42'.2".

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have a personality that distinguishes themfrom others, but with teenagers it's muchmore ...JE: They're not sure yet who they're goingto become?

RD: It's like an open book or something.Their lives can go in all directions: they arenot completely filled in yet.JE: Giving birth is such a strong demarca-tion of becoming an adult, of what it is tobe human, a major event. And going to waris another major event. Whether these kidsare going to see direct combat or not, evenpreparing for violence must be traumaticfor an adolescent.RD: In Israel, Iserving in the militaryl is nota choice; evervbody goes.JE: Everyone enters the army when theyturn 18: they leave their families and boys

JE: What initially took you to Israel?

RD: I was invited to do an exhibition thereand I was really ready to work with thecamera again. In the beginning I went tothe schools, and visited orthodox Jewishchildren and families. Then I thought, well.everybody has gone through the army.JE: That's the one unifying experience?RD: Yes. A lot of my work deals with thiskind of uniformity. I've always been inter-ested in how you can pick out individualand specific things from people who aremembers of a group, how people distin-guish themselves from each other. TheIsraeli soldiers share a uniform bu t theyare all so very different. The first person Iphotographed had such long hands; hecould be a painter or a musician: he's veryelegant. Another one is very set, strong,and stood like a good soldier. Some of themfit the uniforms; others don't.

RD: He is 18 . He caie when he was 17.

JE: And how receptive was he to beingphotographed? Did he become interestedin your project after a while, to see how hisimage would change?

RD: Yes. but he was very cool aboutit. He wasn't interested at all but hewas always, like, "Me, again?" (laughing).We photographed the whole group oflegionnaires and I really wanted to becareful not to give Olivier the feelingthat he was the most interesting for me.But after a while when I photographedhim at certain points in his training,I focused on him and he felt that attention,of course.

JE : It seems that with some of the peopleyou photograph a relationship developsbecause you are involved in their livesover a period of time. Do you seek out thatkind of association with people? Or is it

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serve for three years and girls for 21months. Looking at the photographs,you're forced to confront what it wouldmean to take a life or to work for yourcountry on that level of commitment.

How do you figure ou t what your nextproject will be? It seems like things justnaturally evolve out of relationships youhave or by chance.RD: I don't like to think about what mynext artwork will be. It really has to comeinto my life, more or less, like the Buzzelubseries. I was photographing school childrenin England and the last day my friend andI wanted to go out. WNesked the cab driverand he took us to the most famous club butthere was a long queue out the door, so hetook us to the Buzzclub instead. I hadnever seen anything like that. I like it whenI am just dropped somewhere and, okay,that's it; this I want to photograph. This ismore or less what happened in Israel, too.

JE: You can see this differentiation veryquickly in the two-minute video Le Coded'Honneur (The Code of Honor). At thebeginning. a group of yotng men are seenfidgeting individually until a call is givenand they all snap to attention. Then yousee them as a group rather than distinctindividuals. After a moment they areprompted by someone off-screen to shoutin unison the French Foreign Legionnaire'scode of honor. In close-ups the men articu-late the words very differently from oneanother.RD: They are not all from France; theycome from all over the world, so for sometheir French is not so good. It's very diffi-cult fo r them to pronounce the words.JE: You also took a series of six photo-graphs over five months of the youngsoldier Olivier Silva who joined the FrenchForeign Legion. Hi e looks so young.

really the photos in the end that you'remost concerned about?RD: I'm interested in the photos, bu t withOlivier, he's my friend now too. And there'sa girl, a refugee from Bosnia, who I'veknown and been periodically photograph-ing since she first came to Hiolland whenshe was six years old and she's now 14 :the whole family have become friends. ButI didn't even have the address of the girl inthe green bathing suit. It's been repro-duced and shown a lot, but I'm not sureshe's even seen it. Most of the people Iphotograph will never become true friends,but I feel that taking care of the photos istaking care of them. *

Jan Estep is an artist and senior editor ofNew Art Examiner.

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COPYRIGHT INFORMATION

TITLE: Being open: interview with Rineke Dijkstra

SOURCE: New Art Examiner 28 no10 Jl/Ag 2001

WN: 0118201521009

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