15 October 2019

Trial Day 1

Williams J

10.50am

Arraigned

Jury empanelled

12.00pm

Morning tea break

12.30pm

HH opening remarks

2.20pm

Crown opening address

MFI 1 – Indictment

3.20pm

Defence opening address

Issues with Indictment

Count 6 = Should be Birrong

Count 3 = Should be Yagoona

3.40pm

Ziyad Ali – Sworn in

- Name- DOB- 37 yo

- Borno Bankstown Hoispital

- Where you lived as a child o Initially lived in unit in Belmore, before parents purchased house in Lidcombe

- Year Lidcombeo 1985, when 2 or 3 years old

- Names of parents- Siblings

o 7 siblings, oldest Rayed, Emad, I am third, after me there are three girls, after that there is a boy and girl, girl is the youngest

- How many bedroomso 5 bedrooms

- Who you share bedroom witho Growing up I shared bedroom with two older brothers, then with one of the

brothers- How long live in house for

o Lived there until I was married at the age of 26, and for a short time in that, there was a time I spent out of the house

- When was thato 1998 until just before or just after my HSC, I moved back into my house just after the

HSC, to year 2000o In 1998, 2 to 3 nights a week resided with Mrs Smith in Pananiao In 1999, increased to 3 to 4 nights a week, to the point where living there more

often then Lidcombe - When schooling

o Primary school Lidcombe, finished there in year 6- What high school

o BBHS in 1994- Year 7 in 1994

o Correct- Stay there for secondary schooling

o Yes- What year in in 1997

o Year 10- Show you a series of five photographs- No objection to photographs, tendered as Exhibit 1 – 5 photographs of BBHS- Take you to first photograph, can you identify

o Yes that is my year 10 year photo in 1997- Second page

o Yes- Are you in second page

o No- Third page

o Yes I am in that photograph- Where

o Second row down from the top, third in from the left - Fourth photo

o Staff photograph of that same year- Last page, close up

o Accused is middle row in between two gentleman- Where live in 1997

o Lidcombe address- How far from BBHS

o I would walk from my house to Lidcombe Station. 5 minute work. Catch train from Lidcombe to Birrong Train Station, between them three stops, would roughly take between 20 minutes and half an hour to get to school

- Door to door 20 to 30 minuteso Roughly yes

- What time get to schoolo Between 8am and 8.15am

- School start?o 8.45am

- Why get to school earlyo Meet up with best friend at the time, Ali Mardli

- Meet him at the schoolo No every morning but most mornings

- Bets friendo Yes

- Only friendo No

- How many best friendso I was close to at least 10 of those students in that year

- Where would you meet Ali when get to schoolo Out front of BBHS, on Watt Street

- Once inside school, what do with Ali or by selfo Walk in, walk around the entrance or admin office, we would get to quadrangle with

silver seats, out designated area where we sat, outside English Staff room, couple of mornings a week we would go up the corridor to English Staff room

- How close in metreso Roughly between 2 and 3 metres

- You say we would go, who meano Generally go with Ali, sometimes would go with myself

- Whyo Was quite close with my English teacher and other teachers in staff room, built up

relationship with them- Who was your teacher

o Julie Van Reyk - You said other teachers, names

o Miss Abazeid, and Miss Valmous- When you would go there, what do

o Generally stand at door or near door, or sometimes walk in just inside staffroom, friendly chat, talk about things happening inside the school

- Talk abouto School work, school events, activities going on in school

- How long chats went foro 10 to 15 minutes

- Any other teachers or spoke to in that staff roomo Yes

- Whoo Met Mrs Smith

- Accusedo Yes

- Remember when first introduced to hero Yes I do, that was early on in year 10, early on in 1997

- Term of schoolo Early term 1, February

- Describe staffroomo L shaped, desks from front of room. LHS kitchen

- Next to staff room, any pother roomso Yes, storeroom next door

- How close the door was in relation to staffroomo Between 1 and 2 metres

- Remember first time meetingo Yes I have recollections

- Recall a conversationo I don’t think there was conversation ebwteen myself and Mrs Smith, but Mrs Van

Reyk said this is Ziyad and Ali, two bets students- Remember anything else

o No I don’t

16 October 2019

Trial Day 2

Williams J

Indictment amended before HH

Leave granted

HH: I want to make sure each juries copy of the indictment is exact, ask instructing solicitor to make copies for jury

C: Perhaps go through the exercise with the jury and advise them at some point they will be given an amended indictment

Indictment amendments made before jury

Ziyad Ali – Examination in chief continued

Finished yesterday with q in relation to first conversation with accused, you said more of introduction

o Yes In relation to further conversations, remember when had conversations with accused

o Second hald of 97, in yr 10, more conversations with GS, in staff room or in playground

Conversations went on in second half of yearo Yes

Tpoicso She would ask about my performance in classes, hear about academic marks I

achieved, compliment me on those achievements What were they

o I was quite a high achiever through high school, yr 7 to 9 dux, in year 10 was in line to be one of top students in the grade

Conversations, contents, specific o No I don’t

How did they come abouto If I was walking into the staff room as I would in mornings to have a chat to other

teahcers, most on convos prolonged would be in playground, or whether I was out there in recess or lunch

Did they only ever centre on academic achievementso No,sporting achievements, active member of debating team, English dept rove

debating team, she knew a lot about it. Those conversations became more personal, she would ask about family, friends

What asko How many brothers and sisters, where I live, I really can’t remember but I would

answer what she asked Family life

o Yes What was it like

o Was good, tough growing up with 7 other siblings, it was a struggle. Very noisy household, trying to be a high achiever with that many siblings, focus on schooling

Did it only stay at those topicso No, it became more personal as time went on

How longo Within a matter of weeks

In second half of 97o Correct

What mean by thato Make comments like she said youre looking very handsome today, she also said

another time you’re really cute. Another point asked whether I had a gf, I said no, she said why not if I was in school I would snap you up real quick

Did you respondo I was quite shy in nature, with the complements I would just say thank you

How frequent conversationso Could of times a week at least

Overtime how respond

o Over time I thought it was making me feel good, boosting self esteem from being such an introvert and shy natured. Began to look forward to those conversations, I grew fond of her

Couple of weeks or monthso Occurred over a couple of months

Increase in durationo Yes they did

Ever remember where there was a time not about schoolo In 97?

Yes. o No answer

Ever asked to assist her o She asked me to carry books to staff room, took them. o Another time where she asked me to take down some booklets from upstairs, we

wlaked from upstairs downstairs to the staff room. On that occasion stayed talking for half the lesson, 20 minutes, she made some comments which were even more flirtatious than before

You said asked to assist, given two times, any other occasionso Yes, another point I was aked to assist carrying a crate of books from staff room to

store room, it was upstairs cant recall where located Back to conversations, comments flirtatious, what you mena

o She said to me, we were alone in the duration of the conversation, at one point she said “aren’t we a sexy man today”. I would wear shorts to school, she made a comment about my, she used the words “hot legs”.

o I remember he saying you have really cute eyes, you have deep eyes. o I was very shy, didn’t know how to respond other than to smile and say thank you

Carrying crate of books, was that after or before this convoo After

How long aftero I don’t remember

Can you provide some detail to the courto That occasion I took the crate and followed her up to the storeroom, I remember

she opened door, we walked in, she closed the dooro I cant remember if shut entirely or adjar. o I put crates down, I remember her fanning her face and chest and saying “geez isn’t

it a hot day today”, she unbuttoned blouse, revealed her cleavage Were you looking

o There was a point where I did look at her cleavage Was that before or after unbuttoned

o After Anything happen after that

o I was embarrassed, I did have an erection at that point Conversation

o Yes, she said “do you find me attractive” What you say

o Yes Do you like my breasts, think they are too big

o I said no You said erection

o Yes Conversation around that

o She noticed quite embarrassed, she said don’t worry totally normal What mean by embarrassed

o Wasn’t making eye contact, trying to adjust myself What she say

o Don’t worry, totally normal, making me feel good that you find me attractive After this, anything happen

o I went to boys toilets just long enough for erection to pass Take you to, ever a time where you, September 97, recall recess or lunch

o Yes First time

o Yes, I can’t remember whether recess or lunch but I remember it must have been the start, GS came up to me hallway near staffroom, she said want to come down with me to the shops to get a drink

What you sayo Yes or yeha ok

How long recesso I hink about 20 min, lunch around 40 min

When you said in relation to meeting, arrangemento Walk out the front down a few houses, I asked when going to leave, she said now go

now and I will meet you out there in a few minutes Rodd St few houses down

o Correcto School entrance on sharp bend, train line on left, as you walk out can only go

straight or right. I walked out and went right How far

o 50 or 60 m Why do that

o I don’t know

HH

At that time, allowed ot leave school groundso No

If were to leave, how go abou thato Signed out by parent or organised activity

When go to area away from school, how long waito About 5 minutes

Then what happened

o Noticed a green mazda 121, which I knew to be GS car saw her park it there previously. She drove it down in front of me on other side of road, sat in passenger seat

When got in, what happened theno She drove down end of Rodd St, turned left on Cooper road, followed that to regent

park shops. She asked if I wanted anything, I said no. She said wait here. She returned and bought a drink for herself and bought me a chocolate moove. Then drove to Guilfoyle Park in Regents Park. Once there she offered me cigarette, I said no thank you

Did you smoke at that pointo Spoke for 5 mins then back to school

When got into car, sat in passenger seat o Yes

How sittingo Ahh at that point was upright

When left Regents Park to go back to school how that came abouto Drove back along Cooper Rd, she said make sure you don’t say anything to anyone

that I took you out. I said I wouldn’t tell anyone Tone

o Definite caution, it was a warnoing not to say anything Where dropped off

o She said have to drop you off at back of school because less chance of anyone seeing you cme back in. Recess or lunch so teachers and students in playground. Dropped me off at back gate

Any students or teachers thereo At back there was a school hall, no one in that area. Hopped over a steel fence we

had at the time What happened when out of car

o Out of car, across road, over steel fence and into school grounds See anything in relation to where parked

o No I cant remember You indicated this occurred on a few occasions

o Yes Next occasion

o Yeah, another student by name of MH, came up, also in my grade. o He came up to me and said GS asked if you and I want to go for a drive. I agreed.

What happened theno Walked out front of school with MH. GS was in drivers seat parked out on road. Both

got into the car You indicated best friend Ali Mardle, who was MH to you

o A friend, wouldn’t call him best friend but he was a close friend Maintain over the years

o No Friends at school

o Yeah Friendship with MH

o Only had contact while in school, school hours, not much other than that

Conversationso Yeah, weren’t in many of same classes together

More infoo MH into front passenger seat, I got into back seat. Droive over train bridge, she

offered us a cigarette, both accepted. o Drove until house at picnic point on ramsey road. She parked the car and MH left the

car, GS exited and I remained in the back seat How long in car for

o 15 minutes, maybe 20 Conversation before they got out

o I don’t remember Who got out first

o I remember, no I don’t Address on Ramsey Rd, ever seen house before

o No See it after

o Yes I did Ever go inside

o Yes, resident of GS and I believe at the time her husband Tell court what happened after 15 mins

o I was in car for that period, and then I don’t recall if I saw them walk out together, I just remember them walking and getting into the car

What happened theno Parked in front carpark, walked back into school ground

Notice anything different when they got back ino No I don’t remember

Another occ went for drive in caro Yes, I remember next occ definitely a lunch time. GS walked up to me at some point

before lunch. Said want to go for a drive. I said yes Why

o I was very fond of her, she paid be a lot of attention, I was kind of student who would do most things teachers ask or say. I was just growing more fond, use the word crush

Told anyone about driveso No

Why noto Knew wasn’t allowedo Knew from what she told me about not telling anyone, didn’t know what kind of

trouble we could get in to How many times told that

o At least twice Where were when convo had

o Can’t recall where, but remember meeting her, where she dropped me off last time. I knew that was where I entered school grounds

This arrangement was made, when lunch happened what do

o Lunch began, walked to back of school, exited by that exit, waited. I waited there for a few minutes, probably between, less than 5 minutes before I saw GS car pull out of Cooper Rd carpark

Got ino Yes. I thought we were going back to regents park, same shops as before. Drove past

Rodd St, turned left, followed it and avoided going past front of school Convo in car

o I cant recall How long drive take

o Only few minutes, drive to Birrong shops, only few streets awayo Parked in Stephens Street. Asked if I wanted anything, I said yeah just a drinko She returned and drove to a park down in Birrong

While journey taking place, were you drinking drinkso During convo

Did you have convoo Yes, had convo at park, had drinks

Car stops whereo Carpark out front of park

Whereo Seated in caro Talkingo Complaining or venting about other English teachers in staff room, she was upset

about something, I cant remember what it is. She said I know you like them but they are not what you think they are, they are really bitchy

After this, consuming drinko Yes

Then what happenedo Returned to school

How long parkedo Wasn’t long, 10 minutes

What happenedo Dropped me off in same spoto Near corner of Cooper Rd and Rodd St, toward back of school

When you got back to school was lunch in progresso Towards end of it

When walking run into anyoneo No

Morning tea adjournment

1 Sports day incident

2 Grabbing crotch in carpark

3 Yagnoona Park incident

4 Yagoona Park

5 Yagoona Park

6 Store room incident

7 Sports day incident 2

8 Sports day incident 2

9 Sports day incident 2

10 Panania

11 Panania

12 Wollongong Beach

13 Wollongong Beach

14 Wollongong Car

15 Wollongong Car

16 Basketball lift

17 Lift to park

18 Beach South Coast

19 Beach South Coast

20 Beach South Coast

21 Ryde area incident

Ziyad Ali – Examination in chief continued

Before break talking about episode where returned to the school after being in park, talking with accused

o Correct Further occasion where you accompanied GS in car

o Yes, few occasionso Next occasion was GS came up to me at school, at some point in day, sports day,

Tuesday Can you place month of year

o Nov 97 Sports day

o Yes What mean

o A shortened day in that they don’t have as many classes as normally scheduled. Sport would normally start at 12pm, groups go off to leave school, or sports intraschool sport which would remain on school grounds

Not all goo Yes, 50/50 split. Some stay some go

If stay what doo Structured activities using whatever facilities were available

What dayo Tuesday

Can you tell us when approached o I know it was before the bell went for sport, she asked me, during sport, want to

come to my place to pick something upo I said yes

Did you not have sport that dayo I did but I don’t remember going to sport

An arrangement made about meetingo I cant remember what we arranged but met her in same location againo Remember standing more on Rodd Street side o Standing close to corner but on Rodd Street

Waiting longo Not too long, around 5 minutes

Any students or teacherso There were, at that point no, I don’t recall

After 5 mins what happenedo I remember seeing GS car pull out of Rodd St carpark. Drove her car to where I was

standing, crossed road got in passenger seat. She said to put seat down so no one could see us as we drove past school

What take that meano Recline seat all the way back

Did youo Reclined it all the way back

HH: What angle was ito Almost a 180 degree

After you did this what happenedo Car moving, believe turned right into Cooper Rd, drove past the school

Remain in recline positiono No after 5 to 10 minutes said right to put seat back up

Where goo Same house Ramsey Rd PP

Number of houseo No

Knew it to be GSo Yes

Another time where waiting in parked caro Yes

Was this second timeo Yes

When got there, tell us what happenedo She stopped car in drivewayo Asked me do you want to come in. I said yeso I remember on way she said she wanted to check on her dog and pick something up

from her placeo Walked ino Don’t remember inside of house too wello She walked to back of house and assume checked on dogo I was standing inside house. She said to me take seat on lounge while get drinks

Any recollection of loungeroomo No clear

Sit on loungeo Yes

What happenedo Came back in holding two glass bottleso Not seen them before

Whato Read label vodka lemon ruski, lemon squash

What happenedo Sat on right hand side, propped legs onto lounge facing me

How closeo Legs touching mine

Say anythingo Yeso Chattting for a bit, then she said I really get along with you, I find, I think youre really

good looking or sexy, and then she asked me do you find me attractiveo I said yes

In school uniformo Yes

What GS wearingo Sand shoeso Short skirt, don’t remember colour, above the knees by quite a bit, and white blouse

and that blouse had buttons undone to point where could see cleavage What happened after

o She slid her right hand onto my right thigh, at that point I um formed an erection and we continued chatting

What chatted abouto Don’t remember

You said you had erectiono Yes

Noticeableo I cant remember, but I do remember she slid right hand on top of my crotch on top

of my erection What you do

o I was quite frozen at the time, I didn’t really know how to react

Was anything saido Yeah when she grabbed my crotch she said that is so hot

Any other phys interactiono She lent in and kissed me on moutho She said to me just relax and enjoy the feelingo She said let me relax youo She knelt down in front of me, pulled shorts and underwear down, placed penis into

her mouth and performed oral sex until ejaculated When you say, can you describe what doing

o Moving her mouth in downward and upward motion How long

o Couple of minutes How finish

o I ejaculated Where

o In moutho And she swallowed semen and she said you taste so goodo I remember her leaning across and taking sip of her drink

What she doo I remember pulling up shorts and underwear and fixing myself up

Was there convo o Not in the house but there was in the way, or I cant remember if it was in the house,

but she said make sure you don’t tell a single person about any of this otherwise we will both be in trouble and we will both be in shit

How sayo Stern, not aggressive but pretty stern

Cant remember if in house or caro Yes

What happened theno Drove back to school, I remember pulling up in front carpark o She parked with front of car facing fence which went to railway lineo We were quite sheltered from front of school

What meano Overhanging trees and along the fence on LHS and cars either side

Can you tell the court how long away foro I would say at least 1.5 to 2 hours

How long car ride waso Roughly 20 to 30 minutes

When in car spot, any more interactiono Yes, she asked, I might of, I don’t remember what I was oding or saying but she

asked if I was alrighto I said I was, I was oko She lent over and with her right hand grabbed my groin area

Still in drivers seato Yes

How sitting in drivers seato As drive normally, but at that point lent most of her body over towards me

How long grabbed crotch foro Don’t remember

Anything saido That is so hoto She looked around into carpark, she said no ones around at the moment you go

back in first and I will follow you in after What happened

o I got out, walked back into schoolo Don’t remember what happened after that

This was in Nov 97o Correct

Back to Nov 97, following on from this any further discussiono Yes there waso There was another time when we organised during the day at school to meet up on

the corner o On that occ I don’t remember how organised, but she picked me up from corner of

Rodd and Cooper Road Was this a sports day

o I don’t remember Remember how left school

o I don’t recall whether front or back, but remember meeting her near corner of those two streets

Speak to teacher to be excusedo Yes there was on that occ she had written a note for class I had at the time.

Remember noteo Please excuse ZA he is helping me during this period

What happenedo Teacher read, I was excused, exited school

What entranceo No

How meet GSo I remember that she she drove out of front carpark, getting into her car, driving

down to a carpark at back of Franklins What happened then

o Asked if I wanted anythingo Came back with couple of drinkso Left carpark drove down Hume Hwy, turned into street led to big park in Yagoona

Name of parko O’Neil Park

What happenedo Parked behind clubhouse or amenities blocko Got out of car, sat of steps which faced the ovalo We consumed our drinks, had a chat for 10 minuteso Then we got up from those steps, walked to a ameneties block, looked like it was

locked What mean

o Similar to change room, multi purpose, toilets attached to it

Been there beforeo School sport for cricket

Knew of buildingo Yes been in there before o We stopped near the building

What wearingo School uniformo Don’t remember her top, but skirto She initiated the kissing

Did you kiss her backo I dido She then lifted up her skirt and grabbed my right hand

Indicate how that happenedo With her left hand she grabbed my right hand

Grab by hando By wrist

Right wristo Correct

What happenedo Grabbed right wrist and guided my hand as she lifted her skirt inside her underwear

so that my hand was touching her vaginao She asked can you feel how wet I am

How soon after did she say thato Few moments

How standingo My back against a wall, she was pressed up, her front facing my fronto Her back away from amentieis block

What happenedo She asked, she said put your finger in and I remember trying to put my finger in

Before dinger when in, where touched vaginao Just on outside of vagina

Then told you to put a finger ino Yes

What happened theno After trying for few moments middle finger did penetrate vagina, could feel wet,

remember her moaning How long for

o Wouldn’t have been longer than 5 minutes Extent of penetration

o I cant remember You said the accused used her left hand to grab right wrist, was hand still on wrist

o Her left handstill on right wrist, and she was using that hand to guide my hand further upward while finger upward

Doing anything with right hando Initially on outside of my shorts

When was on crotcho After grabbed my hand, a few moments after she grabbed my crotch

What hand doingo Rubbing crotch on outside of my pants

What happened theno Slid hand into my shorts so stroking penis directly, after a few moments I remember

her letting go of my penis and her kneeling down and placing my penis into her mouth

Just to clarify, inside clothingo She pulled my shorts down a little bit so penis exposed

Whereo Just above my knees

What do after she knelto Placed penis into her mouth, performed oral sex on me until I ejaculated in her

mouth What happened to it

o Swallowed After this, what happened

o Pulled shorts back up, she fixed herself up, she pulled skirt down, we were having a chat for a couple of minutes

Remember what spoke abouto Noo Then returned to her car

When returned, where go o I sat in passenger seat, she drove me back to same spot where picked me upo I remember getting out of the car but I don’t remember anything after that

Remember anything about fingero It had an unusual smell

Montho Definitely in Nov 97

How remember o Because I remember it was just before another time, that I went to visit her house in

December Was there any physical interaction between you and the accused at school

o Yes What Where on school grounds

o Don’t remember where, but she came up to me and said can you see me after school but don’t come down straight after, wait a few minutes

What doo After bell waited 5 minutes

Where wento Don’t recall

What do after 5 minuteso Staff roomo Other teahcers

Whoo Don’t recall

What happened

o GS whispered can you come back What do

o Walked away, to opposite end of school down near ovalo I walked back and by that point at least 10 minutes had passed

Walked about school groundso Yes

What happenedo Returned to staffroom, other teachers had gone

How knowo Couldn’t see themo Stood at door of staffroom

Could see entire roomo Yes

When stood there, what seeo GS came up to the door, grabbed me by the hand, gestured with index finger over

mouth and said shh Where go

o Store room next to staff room How far

o Literally next door, one or two metres away Once got to door, what happened

o She opened the storeroom, wlaked ino I remember the storeroom was quite narrow, it was dark

Could you see anythingo Yes, no lights but there was a windowo She closed the dooro I remember on this occasion she was more forceful in that she immediately got

down to her knees and pulled my shorts down, I don’t know how far she pulled them down

After what happenedo She placed penis into her mouth and performed oral sex on me until ejaculated in

her mouth How long lasted

o I don’t remember Inside

o Yes What happened

o She swallowed After what do

o She stood up and she tried to kiss meo And I kind of moved away to avoid it

Whyo I was a bit disgusted because my semen in her moutho She managed to kiss me on lipso She said to me don’t worry it doesn’t taste that bad

Where were your clotheso Shorts still on my legs but cant remember how far

Put pants back ono Yes

Wheno Just after she tried to kiss me

Just after, what happenedo She opened the door and she had a look outside the door

What mean o She put one foot outside the door and poked half her body outside doorway,

scanned left and righto Then she gestured to me with her hand to come this way

After what happenedo She said goodbye see you tomorrow

What you doo I left store room and wlaked out of school

Whrere wento I would normally catch train home from Birrong Station

When left storeroom did you look aroundo Don’t remember making conscious effort to look around

Where accused waso I don’t remember looking back

HH did you go home theno Yes

HH catch a train homeo Yes

This happened a week or so after Yagoona incidento Yes

In Novo Yes

Next time happenedo Dec

How remember o I remember it was the last few weeks of our sports competition o Last few weeks we had some scheduled games on

What time of weeko Sports days Tuesdays

What remembero I remember GS came to me some point in the day before sports time, and she said

to me um “do you want to come to my place” and I said yes. o And I said “what about sports” and she said don’t worry about it we will just skip it

When said her house you took that to mean PP addresso Yes

Arrange to meeto Yes she said to meet her out the front after the last period

Did you meeto Yeah I remember exiting, meeting at the front of the schoolo Closer to the corner where I would meet her

HH the left hand corner that didn’t go anywhere

o No the right hand corner near cooper road Do you remember getting to this particular place you had been before

o I cant remember whether exited by rear or front How long waited

o Wasn’t long, 5 minutes How see GS

o Reemember her car pulling in from Cooper rdo Pulled up in front of meo Passenger seato She asked me to put the seat all the way back

Recline seato Correct

What angle o Close to 180 degree

Did car remain in that positiono No, we drove away from there, she drove car away from there

Remain in that positiono Yes until she told me I was right to sit up

How longo 10 minutes

How long car rideo 20 mins to half an hour

Where end upo Her house PP

HH: One thing that occurred to me, do you have any maps of general area.

C: Google map of corner section birds eye view of school

HH: Wouldn’t be helpful to jury, mention of counts 3 4 5 happened in a park, park in relation to the school. May be useful to jury

C: Will do after lunch adj

Lunch adjournment

Ziyad Ali – Examination in chief continued

In the car of accused drive to PP to her houseo Correct

Got out of the caro Yes

Where car parkedo In driveway

Did you both get outo Yes

What happened theno Followed to front door, I followed her. o She said come in here for a sec, I just need to …o I was standing with back facing dooro Door was behind meo She removed her white topo And she was wearing a white sports bra underneath

How far from hero About a metre

What happened theno I remember her walking towards me, placing both hands on my waist and pressing

herself up against me Was she facing me

o Yes Where were hands

o Down on my waist Pointing to your pelvis

o Yes Both hands either side

o Yes Pressed up against you

o Her abdomen was touching mine, breasts pressed up against my chest What happened then

o She whispered to me I want to give you a present Respond

o I didn’t know what she meant What did you take that to mean

o Assumed it was something sexual but I didn’t know exactly what she meanto With both hands on waist, turned me around so that my back was, so that the bed

was behind me Any recollection of the bedroom and what was inside it

o Um, not a very clear recollection of furniture, just the bed What direction the bed was in

o The end of the bed was closer to where the door was and the bedhead was pressed up against the wall

So open the door, was bed in front of youo Diagnonally yes, bed was in front on right side

So if someone laying on bed their body would be perpendicular to youo Yes

What theno Pushed me down on bedo I landed back on bedo I laid flat on bed

Where was accused o Standing near my knees or legs

What happenedo She leant over and removed my shorts and my underwear

Howo Pulled them down with her hands

What kind of shortso School shortso They were regular school shorts button and zipper

Howo She unbuttoned the shorts

After what happenedo She climbed on top of me and she straddled my waist with her legs, she was sitting

on my abdomen What was she wearing

o White sports bra, a skirt Length of skirt

o Short, not a long skirto Above the knee

On abdomeno Yes

What theno She leant down forward and kissed meo And while she was kissing me she was stroking my penis with her right hand

How remember right hando Because she had left arm near right shoulder

How strokingo In a back and forth motion

How longo Maybe about 30 seconds

Frequency of strokingo No I cant

What happened o I became erect, she sat up and removed her brao She moved waist so over penis, lifted up skirt, noticed wearing underwear o And then the next thing I felt was my penis entering her vagina

Cupping breast and moved further down bodyo Just moved her waist a little bit further down

Remained uprighto Yeso Was leant forward slightlyo Between 45 and 90 degrees

What happenedo She grabbed my penis, next thing I felt was my penis entering her vagina

See her hold penis or felto Saw her underwear and saw her holding penis, but didn’t see penis enter vagina

What occurred after thato Only lasted a couple of minutes, she was quite vocal, she was moaning, at one point

she said “come on baby I want to feel you come inside me”

How endo It ended by me ejaculating inside her vagina

What happenedo She got off me and gave me tissues to clean myself up

What meano Clean the fluid that was on my penis and groin areao And then she said wait here, just wait here I’m going to get a drinko While gone pulled shorts up and sat on end of bed o Waited for her to returno She came back with two vodka drinks

What meano She was holding vodka lemon ruski drinks, the same bottles we had consumed

beforeo She also had an ashtray and cigarettes

What happened with the, did you smoke at allo Yeah she sat next to meo 5 minutes

Consume alcohol and cigaretteso Yes

What happenedo Left house, into car, drove me back to school, dropped me off at the back of the

school and I entered the school grounds via that entryo Remember sports group on the oval playing volleyballo And I wasn’t part of that sports group because I had chosen not to go with my group

on the buso I asked teacher if I could join in and she said why not on the bus and I said I missed

my bus that day How long

o An hour and a half to two hours Other occasions had intercourse

o Yes Occur anywhere else

o Other locations Another occasion after this

o Next occasion was an afternoon, a school dayo I don’t remember how we organised to leave or what time it was but I remember

driving or getting into her car and her asking me to put the seat back for a whileo After 5 or 10 minutes she said you’re right to put your seat up

Reclineo Yes

Car movingo Correct

Know where goingo She said we cant go home to my house because Graeme is home with my daughter

Whoo Husband

Know had daughter

o Yes Indicate where going

o She said go to mums house no ones at home Tell you where her mothers house was

o Yes in Panania Know address

o Yes o 52 Milford Av

Been there beforeo No

How long car rideo Over half an hour, 30 to 40 minutes

When got there, what house look likeo Old style house, it was elevated house off the ground, the land sloped from left to

right, drive way down right, steps on left, driveway led down to carport Get out of car

o Yes Where walk

o Walked down the driveway and underneath the carport and I remember we were met at the steel gate by a dog, we walked through the gate and followed the path to a granny flat that was at the rear of the property

o Disconnected How far from main home

o 10 to 12 metres, could be a bit less than that Walked past gate, path

o I don’t remember direct path to granny flat, there was a path up to the back stairs and from stairs there was another path that led to granny flat

Got to granny flato Correct

What happened theno GS opened door, sliding door, pulled curtain openo Walked in, remember strong smell of smoke or cigaretteso Made comment that reakso She said sorry brother Scott smokes down here all the time

Describeo One large room, misceallaneous items in thereo Didn’t look like any one living in thereo Loungeo Cant remember if there was a bedo Kitchenetteo Shower in left hand corner

Where you were when enteredo Couple of steps inside the door

Where GSo She then stood in front of me inside the door

Anything happen

o Yes she again placed her hands on my waist, began kissing me, I kissed her back and then she said to me I want to taste you again

o She knelt down in front of me and pulled my shorts down to my ankleso And she placed my penis in her mouth

Penis erecto Initially no, but then very soon after yes

How long penis in moutho Couple of minuteso I said stop stopo She said whyo I said going to comeo I was a bit embarrassed of ejaculating too quicklyo She said don’t worry and then she stood up, we kissed a little further for a few more

moments Knelt down, what your position

o Still standing She got up

o Yes, she stood up Kissing

o We continued kissingo Then she told me to lay down on the groundo I did as she said I laid down

Where were your shortso Around my ankles

Stay thereo I cant remember

What happenedo I remember GS removed whatever clothing she had on her waist

What wearingo Can’t recallo Then she lowered her body until her waist was on top of me on top of my groin area

and she inserted my penis into her vagina Walk us through that

o Laying flat on ground Don’t know where shorts and underwear were

o Cant remember Lowered waist

o Yes Where were legs

o Feet just above waist line How inserted

o She assumed a crouching position above my groin and she grabbed my penis with one hand and guided it into her vagina

So you saw her do thiso Yes

What happened o We had intercourse for a couple of minutes until I ejaculated inside her

What happenedo Asking her whether she could get pregnant

Why asko It was a thought that just poppsed into my head at that moment for this reason

Not thought of it beforeo I had but didn’t have courage

Did she answero Yes, pill

Any other conversationo Yes, after that we, she explained to me that she was separating from her husband

and that she was planning on moving into the granny flat, would be moving in once her dad fixed the shower and tidied the place up

How long after Dec 97 incidento Less than a week

Still in Deco Correct

Still undressed o No

When dressedo After I asked about pregnant

What happened aftero Asked her if, I needed to go to the toileto She led me out of the granny flat up the back stairs and opened the door to the main

houseo Once you open back door to main house the toilet was on the rhs

Hawkebury rivero 30 or 50 studentso Don’t recall how we got there, but activities unstructuredo Fishing, bush walkso That’s the most I remember about acitivites that day

Remember what you were doingo With GS most of the dayo Whatever activities she was ono Don’t remember fishing, I remember walking along river and up hills

Just you twoo Other students in groupo At least 10 other students

When say with her, you were with the group she was leadingo Correct

Ever occasion when it was just you twoo Yes, there was a time towards end of day where we walked off and we were alone.

She handed me a card or paper with her mobile on ito She said im not going to see you for a bit after today give me a call next week and

we will definitely be able to meet up when you call What take that to mean

o Last day of school year so wasn’t going to be able to see her at school

Short adjournment

Making callo Walked up to payphone near Lidcombe railway stationo She answeredo She seemed happy to hear from meo Tone of voiceo Conversation then went on to time to meet up

Speak abouto Family, a lot of information back and fortho She knew I was living at home, one of 8o She shared complaints about staff, issues with husbando Way she explained it they were living together but beginning of a separation process

When convos occurredo Cant recall exactly

Before last day of schoolo Definitely yes

After Franklins shift meeto Walked to back carpark, spotted her Mazda 121

How far seat reclinedo Maximum, 180 degree angle

How long reclined foro Approx 20 minutes o Could have been a bit longer o When she said you’re right to put seat up, realised we were driving through Menai

areao Through convo in car found out driving to Wollongong o Got out of car to beacho Not been to carpark before

Been to W beforeo Quite possibly but I do not recall

What happenedo Got out of the caro GS grabbed vodka lemon ruski’s out of caro Walked down to beacho Consuming drinkso Pretty sure we shared a cigarette

What time of day was ito At this stage it was I’d say getting close to sunseto Sitting on sand, very affectionate, kissing my necko Went for short walk on beach then returned to car

Go anywhere in caro No, I didn’t get back in car. o GS opened the car, cant recall what she did but we walked away from the car

o Walked to a little café on the cornero I remember beign embarrassed because still wearing Frankflins uniformo Black trousers and white button up shirt

Any suggestion is was connected ot Franklinso No logo, but felt embarrassed going straight from work, she said “don’t worry it is

only a little place” What next

o Sat down, ordered dinnero GS ordered couple of alcohol drinks in a glass not a bottle

What happened after consumed alcoholo I remember that drink had a strong taste to it, don’t recall what it was. Stood up and

feeling what I now know to be tipsy What was it you felt

o Disorientated, unsteady on feet Where walk to

o Back to car GS opened rear car dooro Remember her taking out more vodka lemon ruski’s and a towel or blanket

Go somewhereo It was pretty dark, we walked down to the beach which was in front of the carpark,

then we walked on the beach to the rh direction, couple of hundred metres down the beach, water on left

o In distance saw flames coming up chimney or factory What happens then

o Sit down, few cigarettes, laying on back and GS laying on top of me What happened between two of you

o Kissing me What happened after that

o She pulled my trousers down to my legs ankles How

o Unbuttoned top button and unzipped trousers and pulled them down o Then she placed my penis into her mouth and performed oral sex on me

How longo Couple of minutes

And then, what happened o After that GS, remember her placing herself on top of me so that her waist was

sitting on her crouch. Wearing a skirt at the time. I remember we had sexual intercourse for approx. 5 minutes

o I ejaculated inside hero After we were finished she was complaining about some pain inside her vagina

Did she say anythingo Cant remember her exacts words, but she was in a bit of pain and she said that’s

where it was coming fromo We figured out or she figured out that sand must have worked its way in that region

What happenedo Walked to toilet block near carparko She went inside, I stood outsideo When she came out I asked if she was alright and she said that she was

What happenedo Returned to the car then used payphone to call father

Whyo Because quite late, i hadn’t stayed out at a late time before that period in my life

How lateo It was pitch black, couldn’t put a time on it

Convo with fathero He was pretty furious, quite upset

Whyo I said to him, I made up some lie that spending night at mates and not coming home

until next morning Ever done that before

o No What happened then

o Got back in car, spoken for about 2 hours, just sitting in car Remember what talking about

o No Feeling disoriented, when subsided or if it did

o I cant recall, but it subsided towards end of night Remain in car for 2 hours

o Yes Remain after convo

o Drove back to Sydney o Organised to meet up some time in next week, pick me up from that location

After worko Not after work, but for her to pick me up around corner from parents place

Any other discussiono No not that I can recall

How many days after did you meet

Bankstown shopping centre Time

o I think that was early in 1998, in January What was the arrangement

o To meet in shopping centre in Bankstown squareo She asked me to locate perfume storeo Once I located store asked me to walk in but not talk to her until customers had

exited the store How soon after making arrangements did you do that

o I cant recall What was purpose

o No, she said she wanted to do some shoppingo More to go to that shop to meet her friend

Who friend waso Megan Quinn

o She purchased for me a Nokia mobileo Present, don’t need to worry about the bills

How often call each othero On almost a daily basis

During these conversation that youwould arrange to meet o Correct

Go to her houseo Once moved to granny flat, still very secretiveo Her family didn’t know o At night would sneak me down side, or make sure no one home

17 October 2019

Trial Day 3

Williams J

10.15am

Ziyad Ali – examination in chief continued

Yesterday talked about an event at Bankstown Square, trailing behind the accused

o Few conversations about MH, initially denied, eventually admitted she slept with him but I don’t think we discussed a timeframe

Principalo Can’t remember time, but recall asked to come to Principal. Went to office. Two

representatives came in and said they were from the Dept of Education Conference room

o Yes Who was in the room

o There might have been the Principal, can’t remember for sure. Very sure there was another representative from the school, either Principal or Deputy, and two reps from Dept

What unfoldedo Q me about GS, asked me Q’s about whether I had seen any inappropriate

behaviour towards me or any other students, sexual innuendo Was the meeting such that you had to answer them

o I don’t think I really understood whether I had to answer or not at the time Aware of meeting before

o First I found out about it was when I met Principal at front office, I think he explained what was about to happen, that was the only notice I had

Questions they asked Document shown to ZA. Seen document before

o I cant remember Your signature

o Yes 3 June 98

o Correct Handwriting

o No Fourth page

o I think that is Fifth page

o I think that is Questionairre written account what occurred between you and the two reps

o Yes MFI 3 What tell reps

o I denied any of her behaviour being inappropriate Why not

o She told me I would be in trouble, she made threats that my family would disown me if they found out, that I would be a laughing stock in front of my friends

Shown MFI 3 again, fourth page, read out answer Did you know there was something between MH and GS

o Yes Why give that answer

o I thought I was protecting her, she put that much pressure on me not to say anything, and she said that there would be serious consequences so I believed that

How long interview tooko No

During school periodo Correct

After o Believe I was returned to class

When finished school did you see GS againo I recall speaking to her

Talk about her dayo I spoke about what happened during the day, notified that I was interviewed, she

was horrified When you say horrified, did you say anything to you

o I cant remember exactly what she said, but all she was concerned with was asking questions about what I said to the reps and what they asked, and concerned that I denied everything they asked

More convoso High chance more convos but cant recall

What GS asked youo No I can’t recall

Did the relationship continueo Yes it did

Continue into 1999o Yes

What year

o 12 How conduct relationship in 1999

o Spending close to 4 or 5 nights a week at hero Quiet place to study, no distractions, quiet place to focus

Period where actually lived at Pananiao I wouldn’t say, no I didn’t live there permanently

Introduced with accused familyo Definitely 1999, closer to the beginning of that year

Whoo Mother, she introduced me as a uni student

Anyone elseo Brother and fathero Her father wasn’t living at Paniana, her parents separated

Relationship with mothero Good relationship, we got along, initially not much contact but over time would go

to main house and sit with her, have dinner 1999

o Yes Brother relationship

o Wasn’t good relationship, he didn’t have good relationship with mother or GS, or other members of family

o He was a heavy drug user, he had stolen a lot of things

Object

C: ZA was asking about relationship with brother, I intend on calling brother, he says there was a significant incident between Scott and ZA, pushing into wall. Not in his statement.

HH: Not something would have taken LJ by surprise

C: Not the pushing, but drug everyone by surprise. My friend opened on relationships, ZA moved into the bosom of the GS family, been made relevant by opening. Family dynamics not come into it due to D opening. Want to go into dynamics

D: The defence should not be hearing anything for the first time in the witness box, not raised character, how his drug use is relevant

HH: In opening you did comment on situation that there was a very well known relationship between GS and complainant, he was treated as her partner

HH: Need to steer well of drug use, criminal antecents or drugs supplier. My view is that you did make much of the relationship, I don’t see any necessary unfairness on C asking those questions. Not permitting that

D: Jury should be told

HH: We need to approach that with care and delicate approach, not sledge hammer. How do parties suggest going about his evidence

D: Should be disregarded, struck and put out of their mind

D: Not only not relevant, not true. Leaves us in a difficult situation with how we deal with it, whether it will need to be raised by him

HH: Can’t explore it with him because disregarded

D: Yes, that’s the issue. If disregarded doesn’t address whether it is true or otherwise, they may still accept it is true but not relevant. Best way to deal with it

C: It is out now, however the C would say that jury does listen to direction, the jury would accept that

D: Untested, unexpected, irrelevant, put it out of your mind, untested suggestion and not going to be allow it to be tested because need to put it out of your mind

Note from jury

1. Were parents informed by education department that Ziyad was to be questioned, if so did it detail purpose and content? Outcome. Was Gaye questioned? Can we see MFI 3?

a. There is a conversation where John Malins spoke with family. Seeking to tender it because it is a filenote by John Malins, if rejected for hearsay will be relied upon for a non hearsay purpose

2. What has prompted investigation in 2019, when Gaye has remained working since 1998

HH: Will be some evidence about parents being informed. There will be evidence with respect to that. Outcome?

C: Letter osught to be tendered indicating that enquiry led to unsubstantiated

HH: Was Gaye questioned

C: Will be leading evidence from Malins

HH: Will it extend to that

C: She wasn’t told until told unsubstantiated

HH: Copy of MFI 3

C: Yes through Malins

HH: Object to that

D: Part of legal arguments

HH: Will tell them that not sure yet

HH: 2019

C: This material was served

HH: Answering last question

D: They will hear evidence in relation to it, complaint wasn’t made until 2017

HH: Will hear ev in 2017 and that prompted the investigation

HH: Still working for Dept

D: Yes, but since charge in different role

Jury returned

HH: ZA excused straight away

Also reference to SM, going to give you directions, that evidence will not form part of trial, not relevant, not tested, struck from the record and directing you to put it out of your mind. Doesn’t touch upon the issues which you have to decide

Questions:

Parents informed? Will be some evidence with respect to that

Purpose and content? Answered later

Outcome? Answered

Gaye questioned? Answered

MFI 3? Can’t at the moment, remains an MFI, only when becomes an exhibit. Don’t know, it may or may not

What prompted indictments? Evidence will show has remained working. Prompted this indictment in 2019, ZA went to police and made statement in January 2017, result of that investigation

Ziyad Ali – examination in chief continued

Take you back to nature of relationship with mother o Good relationship

Nature of relationship with SMo Describe relationship as up and down, sometimes good and sometimes bad

Fathero Quite a good relationship

Socialise with familyo Yes, on many occasions

What typeo Dinner, breakfast

Any socialising outside family homeo Wedding, cousin in Canberra

In 1999 spent 4 or 5 nights at the granny flat, anytimes moreo Quite likely there way, can’t recall exactly

You finished year 12 at BBHSo Correct

Uni

o Correcto BA applied science UNSW

Commenceo 2000

Finisho No

Why noto Attended first few weeks, I was suffering from anxiety and depression

At beginning of 2000 or earliero Started sometime in 1999, and then that progressively got worse

Whyo I think I became anxious from the secrecy that surrounded my life, having to hide

everything from family and friends about GS Why from family

o My family was quite a strict family, having gf or pre martial sex no accepted, especially with older woman

Strict familyo Religion

What religiono Islam

Ever tell any members of family relationship as at 1999o Might have mentioned to brothers I had a gf but wouldn’t have disclosed any details

How did anxious and depressed manifesto From 1998 onwards my weight slowly increased in 1998, rapidly put on weight 1999

and years following. In excess of 40kgs in those couple of years. By year 2000 was clinically obese. Very withdrawn from social circles, wouldn’t hang out with friends

Friendso During relationship with GS relationship with friends was very minimal

What happened with uni o Ending up deferring that course before census date, date before having to pay for

HECSo Window to withdraw o Couldn’t concerntrare on content in lectures, struggling to attend, felt I wasn’t ready

to cope with that pressure Still in relationship with GS

o Yes Talk about this with GS

o Yes, early part of 2000 where tried to end relationship but every time I tried to end relationship she would say things to make me feel guilty

What things o She would say you’re going to do this after all that I’ve done for you, she would say

your family is going to disown you, she would say that no one is ever going to believe you if you tell anyone

Had you told family, what would have happenedo I don’t know

How strict were parents

o They were relatively strict in the sense that up until I was in year 10 I wasn’t really allowed to spend nights out of the house, strict guidelines when to be home, quite normal expectations

What do after dropped outo Continued attending campus for another month or two. Would walk around, I didn’t

want to tell parents deferred Why not

o Shame and failure o Their dream, education high on their priority list

After you stopped all contact with uni, did you seek any employmento I commenced employment with IT company in Glebe, ipex, was successful in gaining

position in their office, I commenced that role after a month I resigned Why

o Wasn’t coping from the effects of my anxiety issues and my depression Seek help

o No Tried to end

o Yes Time when you did

o After the Olympics in 2000, went away for a couple of nightso That experience, having not had that for previous few years, was very positive

experience. I was socialising with people my age. Having fun. No secrecy Who was relationship secret to

o Everyone except accused familyo The only other person was another student and GS had a good relationship with that

person, Sameh Moussa Was it you who told him

o No, GS told him in 1999 Were you there for convo

o Can’t recall, I was there for at least one meeting with had with SM How soon after trip speak with GS

o During that weekend was thinking of ending relationship for good, as soon as we got back I built up courage to call GS, told her I’m not happy, depressed for some time now. This whole fantasy of getting married and having kids, it’s not realistic. I didn’t want to continue the relationship

Discussions about marriageo Yes

Who initiated o GS

You said family practised Islamic religiono Yes

Did youo At that stage not practising but still followed faith

Anything to do with marriage issueo No

She say anything in responseo Can’t believe going to do this to me, done so much and supported you

o I said that the relationship was obviously satisfying her needs but she wasn’t acknowledging my needs or feelings

Did she support you in any wayo Other than providing a place to sleep, resided a few nights a week or 4 or 5 nights a

week, purchased me mobile, making repayments on ito She would pay for occasions when we went out for dinner

She was a teacher at the timeo Yes

Student at different schoolo Yes

Support in relation to thato She would help me with English school work through yr 11 and 12

Morning tea adjournment

Ziyad Ali – examination in chief continued

Conversation with GS after weekend away, end relationshipo Correct

Did relationship endo Yes

Any further contacto Yeso Couple of times she contacted me, wanted to meet upo I did meet up a couple of time

Times you contacted hero No

How ofteno Two times

Remember them distinctlyo Yes

First occasion o On both occasions, the first occasion I don’t remember what we spoke about but I

do remember we ended up having sexual intercourse Where

o Cant recall if at granny flat or if at for a short time in the early 2000 she had a cousin staying at a residence in Pastow

Name of cousin o Sharon

Been to house beforeo Yes

What contexto When cousin moved in to that residence and after HSC completed, GS suggested

that I could stay with her cousin

o I cant remember how many nights a week I would stay there, but I would sleep over and stay with GS at that residence

How many times been thereo It was over a couple of months, I cant recall frequency per week but it was a regular

basis What was relationship like with Sharon

o Good relationship Any further contact

o There wasn’t any further contact until 2005 Worked at Glebe, how long there for

o Cant recall exactly, estimate a month or two months at most Anything after

o Applied and entry to USYD for excersize and sport scienceo Commenced that course in 2001

Finisho Noo Completed first semester of first yearo Struggled in completing that semestero Struggled with anxiety and depression

How sturgllingo I would experience very low moodso Withdrawal from social settingso Keep to myself a lot of the timeo I began to have some very serious thoughts about suicide

How long did that go on foro I would often have suicidal thoughts, lasted a number of yearso Never tried to act on those thoughts which I am very thankful for

Did the thoughts affect the way you actedo Definitely

How as thato Affected my personality quite significantlyo Wasn’t a very happy persono Very low self esteemo Trouble completing tasks my peers would complete quite easilyo I really struggled through the basics

Ever medicatedo Saw GP about weighto Spoke to GP about anxiety and depressiono He recommended seeing psycho Got medication for weight losso He never gave me medication for anxiety or depression o Best memory was that I said I didn’t want to take medication and I couldn’t speak to,

or take suggestion and speak to psych, I was afraid that psych would report what had gone on, the relationship with myself and GS

What mean

o If I described relationship and explained what had happened, being so young, they would have a responsibility to report to higher authority

Self medicateo I used a variety of illicit substances, I guess that was my way of self medicating

What substanceso Marijuana, ecstasy, cocaine

When was first time used marijuanao Early in year 2000o With GSo I remember sharing a joint with GS, I cant remember where we were

Just drugso Binge drink

Got under control o Yes

When o Under control when met my wife o Before meeting her I struggled to hold down a relationship,long term intimate

relationships and for some reason when met wife she became a reason why I gave up a lot of those habits

What year met hero 2006

Pursue any further academic paths o Looking for a course to assist with healthy lifestyle

BBHS 3 years Why stop after 3 years

o Brought up a lot of negative feelings or experiences, so I thought it was best to change schools

Transfero Resgined from my school and applied to a private school

Why leaveo Couldn’t cope anymore

Why go there in the first placeo From what I understand, what I did by going back to the same school where to

trauma had occurred for me, was a way for me to re-write and re-live what had been taken away from me. Trying to fill that void with positive experiences

How that turn outo Not very well

Went to independent school aftero Yes

What schoolo Malek Fahad

What teachero PE full time

After thato Another independent school

Then where go

o I then worked for one term for special education school Chamlmers Rd, then after that I started at Bass HS

Where currently employedo That’s correct

Relationship with you and GS, how describe ito When relationship began I thought good relationship, enjoyable, paid me a lot of

attention, made me feel good about myselfo As relationship progressed, a lot of unhealthy affects of relationshipo Gaining a lot of weighto I was starting to miss out on a lot of schoolo Skip school to spend time with hero My grades started deteriorating

Skipped school, she was at different school, how spend timeo Days she wouldn’t go to work, I wouldn’t go to school, spend time togethero As relationship progressed, realised unhealthy. Disconnected from family and

friendso Couldn’t talk to anyone about how I was feelingo I couldn’t share any experiences with anyone

More contacto Yes

Wheno In 2005, lowest point I was feeling

23 yo, want to get answers from accusedo Yes

How do thato Called mobile number I had o No answer o Can’t recall no answer or disconnectedo Driving to her residence o No one home, no cars in driveway

Day or night timeo It was, I cant be sure

Recollection of leaving noteo Yes

Wat sayo Please call me, you know what it’s about. Left my name and phone number

Go back to course studied as teacher, subjects you learnt in 2002o Cover many core subjects that relate to specialisation, cover other subjects which

are generl in terms of teaching practiceo Child protection

Anything to do with you not talking to anyoneo Afraid of the aftermath of what could be if I told anyone about it

Where left noteo On landing of the entry to the main house, up the flight of stairs to the main house

Any contacto Yes

Where

o Don’t remember if that night, it was soon after, that night or night after. I remember working at a shift at a golf driving range working at at the time

o My phone rango GSo She said to me, the first thing she said “what did I want”o There was a conversation where I remember walking away, having conversation

with her, I explained to her I wanted to understand what had gone one back in year 10, I asked her a few questions to try and get some answers to explain actions

What mean by her actionso Specifically why she had a sexual relationship with me

Did she say anything to youo Yeah she said hwy are you contacting me, you know what can happen if this gets

out, I would lose my job, my daughter, I will lose everything Did you say anything to her in your questions, can you tell the court what questions you

asked hero I said to her that I wanted to understand why she had singled me out as a studento I remember saying to her I needed answers, that I need to speak to someoneo Explaining to her I was struggling with mental health issues and I wanted to speak to

someoneo I remember mentioning speaking to psych or getting help, she didn’t want me to do

thato She wanted to meet up, when can you see me and we will discuss this

What tone you usedo I was quite upset, I was upset, I was a bit emotional. I was explaining that I was

struggling and I wanted her to understand how I was feeling at the timeo I didn’t get much response

When she responded, what toneo She was angry

What make you say she was angryo Tone of her voice, the way she said those words, she spoke quickly, very sharply, and

I sensed that anger in the tone of her voice In relation to her saying lose my daughter lose my job, did you say anything

o I said to her that I just needed ot talk to someone about it, I needed to deal with those issues

o She kept saying don’t talk to anyone, come and talk to me, we will meet up When meet up

o Days or weeks When making phone call, remember where you were

o I was at work What doing there

o Customer service assistant Where were you

o Behind reception desk then walked away as having convo

Lunch adjournment

Ziyad Ali – examination in chief continued

Before lunch adj, talking about phone convo where accused contacted you as response to note you left

o Yes Arrangement to meet

o Yes When to meet?

o At her house, her mothers house Few weeks after?

o Either that night or the night after Evening?

o I recall meeting up with her and it was dark, don’t recall time When get there, what do

o She said to call when I got there, I called when outside, she came out the front and we stood outside the house and had a conversation

Whereo On median strip on grass

With anyoneo Alone

Talkingo Convo about issues dealing with o Struggling mentally, struggling to make sense of our relationship back to 1997,

sexual relationship and the relationship that grew from thereo Why had it happened, why she had chosen me to pay attention to

Provide answerso Not really, she said something alone the lines of I was going through a bad time

How were youo Relaxed in terms of my demeaner, leaning on car at the timeo I was emotional in the sense of explaining what I was going through

Her demeanouro She seemed ot be showing, she was listeningo She didn’t really say much that showed that she cared too much about the issueso She kept redirecting our convo to making sure I didn’t tell anyone about the

relationship During this conversation, was it just about relationship

o Spoke about family, she asked about my familyo At time year before father suffered aneurism and strokeo I was carer along with my mother

What meano Managing his affairs with the office of the public guardian, paperworko Oversee modifications to family homeo In hospital for at least 6 months

After he discharged, was he good to goo He needed medical careo 24 hour assistance

GS asked about familyo Yes, explained what had happened with father, mother had been struggling with

loss, and all the issues that came along with that Who was main breadwinner

o Both were pensioners o We provided them with assistance through whatever employment we hado She was listening, and then she said to me how about I give your family some money

and you assure you don’t tell anyone what happened between us o After I finished explaining my family and we got back onto topic of my struggle and

answers, then she brought up the topic of money by saying “how about I give your family some money and you assure me that you don’t disclose this to anyone” I took this to mean for me not to talk about the relationship to anyone

When she said this how did you respond o I was very surprised, I didn’t expect her to say anything like thato I remember agreeing to that

Why agreeo At the time I wasn’t in the best state of mind, was a very poor choice to agree to it

but I was feeling the pressure, I felt the money could go to assisting my parents and that could make up for the hardship I put them through through my years out of the home through 98 and 99

What mean by thato Up until 97 I was a very good son, wouldn’t break any rules, doing very well at

school, then there came a time where I changed very quickly in a short space of time, rebellious, deceive them and lie all so I could spend time with GS

o This put them through an immense about of emotional turmoil, took a toll on them, that’s where my mind was at

When you agreed to it, what happened after thato She said wait here, as she turned to walk away she said I will give you what I can

affordo She walked into main house, she was gone for about 15 minutes

Front door open or closedo Don’t recallo Recall her going in

What theno She returned, handed me a cheque, I believe the amount was for $29,000. Had her

mothers name on that chequeo I said to her this is not your money its in your mothers name, she said don’t worry

about that it’s a loan for my mum o We spoke for a couple more minuteso As best as I can recall she made me promise I wouldn’t say anything to anyone

Agree to thato I did

Demeanour change with topic of moneyo GS tone became more serious, she wanted assurance I wouldn’t disclose

relationship, her tone was reflective of that o Multiple times she asked me not to say anything

What did with money

o Yes I doo I cashed cheque into my bank account, and I used the majority of that money to

purchase a car for my parents In 2005

o Correct Worked in number of schools

o Correct January 2017, did you do anything in relation to these allegations

o Yes, I remember looking, searching for legal advice In relation to what

o To see what would happen if I reported this matter to police and process What do

o Simple google searcho First one comes up Gerard Malouf and Partners o Contacting leaving message at their office o A lady called me back, Rochelle Nelsono Made appointment with her, to have a discussion o Explained to her what had occurred to me in 1997, I asked her for some advice

about what process would be and what would happen after that because I was concerned if I reported it it would become public knowledge, and my name being released, my employment

o Different levelso Embarrasment and shame from friends I went to school with o Felt a lot of embarrassment and shame if family found outo I feel still today that if my students found out, would make my job extremely difficult

Any friends knowo No

Familyo No, except for my wife

What did you doo Few days after or a week after, I went to Campsie PS and I walked in and asked to

speak to a Constable and I told them what it was in relation too Interview room, short interview with female constable o Lamperelli o That interview didn’t go for very long, was in there for about half an houro She explained to me that because these matters occurred in Bankstown area,

someone from Bankstown would contact me When contacted

o In Jan or Fed contacted by another officer, female, she explained have to go in, organised for a detective to meet me there

o In Feb, could have been March, couple of days in March I went in to speak with the Detective

o Made couple of corrections recently Gerard Malouf, was it she who told you to speak to police

o My decision to go to police, she just gave me advice on what to expect How long sat with police officer for

o Approx 2 to 3 hours each time

Process to between 6 and 9 hourso No more than 9, at least 5 or 6

As part of investigation did you speak to Det Rob Jones about convo with GSo Yes I was

Who approached whoo Det Rob Jones contacted me and asked if I was willing to make a phone call that was

going to be recorded to GSo I agreed to that

In relation to this phone call, were you by yourself Prompted by anyone

o No Wish to have that conversation played

o

Tender CD of pre text call

Conversation between you and GS threaten her, had you ever done thato Absolutely not

Threatened her with her lifeo Absolutely not

Know worked in Mac Fieldnso No

Know where worked after 2005o No

After BBHSo Not sure now

Ever contact her at workplaceo No

Convert hero That was the first time I’ve heard that, so it is a lie

Were you religious back theno No

Ringo Silver ring, GS gave it to me at some point, can’t remember the year, but between

1997 and year 2000 She had a ring on

o She had worn a ring in 1997 but after separated as best as I can recall she took off that ring

Convo took place on 18 Aug 2017o Yes

Any convo after thiso No

Between convo at house with money and 2017, any convoo No

Trial Day 4

21 October 2019

Williams J

HH: I understand the pressures of coming to Parra with family, we can accommodate that. Other thing I understand is there are some personal difficulties with the Crown

C: Mother discharged, think it will be fine

D: Accused indicated uncle passed away yesterday, expect funeral later this week or next week.

HH: Don’t expect her to face her trial if she has had a bereavement, whole day off

HH: How go with resolving the issues

D: Not able to resolve this issue. 5.55am this morning different list of documents. Subpoena issues, file produced, file has a lot of material not ordinarily admissible. We are trying to work through. Don’t expect to get to that argument today.

HH: Ok, some documents you object to on discreet documents

D: And portions of the documents

C: Can talk about later. More than happy to hand up material, has it informally on voir dire basis.

HH: Very well. Absent that, anything else required to rule on.

C: ERISP already resolved.

Adjourned to 11am

Ziyad Ali – cross-examination

Background ev, one of 8 o Correct

Lived at home until marriedo Correct with the exception of a couple of years

While at house, shared bedroom with brotherso Yes

One brother lefto Reconfigured after he left, but yes with one brother

Number of kids, high achievero Yes

Disagree bad relationship with brotherso Sometimes

Disagree subject to violence o Fights, diagreements

Cause you stresso Whenever we had fights, stressful, but being brothers made up quite quickly

Violence made me unhappy at homeo Disagree, made me unhappy with my brothers at different points at time

Stayed away from house as a resulto Would need break, stay with family

And friendso Can’t recall staying with friends

One particular end of 1997, scar on foreheado Correct

Older brother had thrown an iron at mothero Disagree

You got in the wayo No disagree

One example of vilenceo Disagree

Family religiouso Yes

You weren’t, but began practicsing latero More practicing now

BBHS for high schoolo Yes

In year 12 school captaino Yes

Captain of rugby teamo Yes

Zone team rugby teamo Yes

First or second in all subjects to year 12 except year 12o I was dux 7 8 and 9, I wasn’t first in year 10, I maintained my grades for the most

part but they did slip in year 12 Weren’t first in year 12

o Not in all subjects First in 2 and 3 unit English

o Yes, but not all All but year 12

o I would say yeso Would say dropped grades, for example in year 11 started 3 units maths, but

couldn’t handle it so had to drop Ali Mardli friendship

o Not as close now but are in contact still today Direct contact or social media

o There would be times where have telephone convo’s, over the last 10 or 15 years we wouldn’t see each other in person as much

Every 6 months or soo Not often, couldn’t put a time on it

Keep up via social mediao Occasionally yes

Gorup of about 10 friendso Yes

Similar backgrounds to you

o No not all of them, but at least half would be One of the MH

o That’s correct Good friends with him at school

o Would call him a friend Part of group

o If I had to count friends, wouldn’t be in top 10 friends but was a friend MH got in trouble at school

o No I don’t recall Involved in fights

o I remember one occasion he was involved in a very serious fight Prior to that, involved in other fights

o Cant recall Suspended on number of occasions

o Cant recall Feb 1998

o Can’t recall, but remember it happened in year 11 Fight occurred at school

o Yes Two instances of violence on the same day

o Not able to say, remember there being one incident Home room and then later confrontation

o No I don’t know about that, I wasn’t there at time or place Seriously injured

o Yes Stabbed several times

o Aware he was stabbed Hospitalised

o More than a week Came back to school one day and never agin

o Don’t remember him coming back for too many days Friendship group also included SM

o Correct Close friends with him

o Closer with Sameh in 1999, year 12 Closer with him in year 12 saw him regularly in and out of school

o Correct Throughout uni

o There were times I would catch up with him with other friends Close when in relationship with GS

o Closer with SM when in relationship Dinner with SM

o Don’t recall that And with Megan

o Don’t recall going to dinner with those people SM also close with Megab

o I don’t recall he was close with Mgean

Relationship grew in 1999 and continued after school Stopped when you stopped seeing Gaye

o I don’t recall when it stopped, relationship stopped 2001

o Can’t put a year when stopped speaking with SM He knew of relationship with GS

o She told him You spoke to him

o After she told him Three teachers close to

o English staff members JV

o Yes Valmous

o Yes Abazeid

o Yes JVR your teacher

o Yes Year 10

o Yes Continue to be your teacher

o Yes Your enlgihs teacher in year 10, 11 and 12

o Yes She ran debating team

o Cant recall You were on debating team

o I don’t think debating continued after 1997o Don’t remember JVR coordinating it

Those three teachers were permanent teacherso JVR was permanent, don’t recall if others were

Abazeid still works thereo To best of my knowledge

Worked there continuouslyo To best of my knowledge

Worked with hero Yes

Casual teacher BBHSo Yes

Accepted FT roleo Yes

Taught at school with hero Yes

PZo Yes

Head of English

o Yes Close contact with

o No He in 1997 and then throughout your school was head of Enlgihs

o I am pretty sure he was there until I was in year 12 John Lucas

o Yes Wrote you a reference at end of year 12

o Yes he did English club, silver seats

o I didn’t describe it as an English club, I said I would sit in area outside English staffroom, quadrangle, my friends would sit there

Said would attend every dayo Yes

Speak with teacherso Couple of times a week

Allowed freely ino Wouldn’t say freely, the mornings I would attend, if they were not busy they would

have a chat with us Inside or outside

o Most of time at door Only ever did with AM or other friends

o No it was with AM, or by myself Regular basis

o Couple of times a week Only in 1997 or continue

o Would have continued Only in mornings

o Yes School stuff or personal stuff

o Discuss things happening in school You said to us it was one of those mornigns first met GS

o Correct One year placement

o I don’t recall what basis she was employed as First year at school

o Best of my knowledge yes JVR

o Yes Remmeber precisely those words

o Yes In staff room

o Yes Anyone else there

o Valmous, Aba, may have been others Was that the extend of convo

o There was some convo, but don’t recall exactly what

o Remember being introduced with those words At time, school had multi cultural backgrounds

o Yes Kids segregated

o What mean Didn’t interact

o Disagree with that In 1997 or throughout

o My relationships, the people from what I could see, number of different backgrounds, for the most part we all got along

Don’t recall school having difficultieso Not segregation noo There were incidents at the school but nothing out of ordinary

School had implemented policies to integrateo I cant comment on that because don’t know

Werent part of those dayso I remember multi cultural day, can’t remember any other days targeted at that

Recall one multi dayo Yes

Only one recall in 97, or latero Don’t recall when it waso We had it, they staged that event a couple of timeso Definitely remember it in junior years

One of those days tension overflowedo Don’t recall

One group of kids put dog foodo Don’t recall

Supervision cracked downo Don’t recall that

Relationship with GSo Sure

Clearly had relationship for number of yearso Correct

Relatively seriouso At time I thought it was

At time she thought it waso I don’t know

Spoke about marriageo She spoke about it

You didn’to I never brought it up

Childreno She did

You didn’to Not something I ever brought up

Religion impedimento I don’t recall that was ever an issue we spoke about in terms of marriage

You never asked her to converto Absolyutely not

100% noto Yes

During entire time of relationshipo To best of knowledge

Ever ask her to convert o No

Absolutely noto Yes

Ask you about end of year, o Sure

End of year 10, 97, there was prpgrams for end of yearo Yes

Generally, year 10 finished earliero Cant recall when

Slightly end of termo Can’t recall

Year 10 finished earliero Can’t recall

End of year activity organised by GSo I remember going, don’t remember if organised by her

You gave ev of excusion to Hawkesburyo There may have been others

Only one you went ono May have gone on others, but remember last one was HR

Just year 10 or whole school;o Cant remember, 30 to 50 students

How get thereo Can’t recall

Bus or traino It’s possible, have to be one of those

No memory of how got thereo No

Can’t remember year 10 or other gradeso Don’t recall

Any other teacherso No

Other studentso Cant remember exactly students there

Recall an excursion to Whitlam Centreo No

Homebush Aquatic Parko No

Those were the two activities, organised by GS, attended by years 9 and 11o Don’t recall

Live close to Lidcombe

o Yes You were there independently

o Don’t recall That’s when started speaking to GS

o Don’t recall Npoticed scar

o Don’t recall Shortly after incident with brother

o Don’t recall Began speaking to you because of scar

o I remember having that scar when I attended school it was still covered at that point, speaking to people

After that convo gave numbero Don’t recallo And not caused by brother

Not caused by brothero Football at local park, brother drove me thereo Went to medical centre iN Auburn o Cant recall if stitched up at medical centre or go to hospital, remember being

stitched up and returned home When happened

o Cant recall when that happened In year 10 when it happened

o It is highly likely in year 10, could have been year beforeo I remember going back to school it was still a fresh scar

Could have been 96o Highly likely in 97

Not only convo with GS, but with other teachers and studentso At time it happenedo People asked me what happenedo Principal concerned I got into a fight or bullied, he pulled me into office to reassure

not as a result of a fight Cant tell us when it happened

o No What year

o Most likely 97 Phone number

o I remember her giving it to me at Hawkesbury Never there with GS, wasn’t excursion at that day

o Disagree Happened at Lidcombe station

o Disagree You already finished school

o Disagree Independently

o Disagree Phone number

o Yes Call her

o She said to call her the following week You called her a number of times over next couple of months

o I called her when she asked me to call her to organise times to meet up You spoke about more personal things and stuff happening at home

o Spoke to her about personal things before that point in time Phone calls

o I had discussed more personal things long time before that Called her around birthday upset

o Disgaree After this increased

o No Go for ealks

o Disagree Spoke about things happening at home

o Disagree She spoke some things

o Disagree Developed crush Feb March 98

o I would say developed crush when started speak to me at school on regular basis, crush on her at that point

By Feb March 98 had crusho Had been in a sexual relationship for few months

Not my questions What happened by march, you agreed to meet up

o Repeato Our relaltiponshop continued right through end of 97 and into 98 o There was time before 16th birthday where didn’t have much contact, she was

finalising things with separation from husband, organising yo mobr into granny flat Asked in March

o Met up many times What about March

o Don’t remember but highly likely Time in March drove to Wollongong

o Not specifically in March, dorve to Woll many times Time in march, drove to W with GS

o Don’t recall that That was first time drove to W

o Disagree During that trip spoke for hours

o Disagree first time went down there Dinner at W

o Been there for dinner before that point Very similar to description in your ev that you suggest happened much earlier

o I disagree with specific incident in march In reality, not drinking, smoking or sex, just dinner and talking

o Disagree That time relationship developed

o Disagree By early May, told her you loved her

o Disagree Drove to your house and met uou in a park

o Don’t recall meeting her at parko When she picked me up would always be around the corner

You would leave the house and meet yo at parko

First time you told her loved hero No

She said didn’t recall speaking to you at schoolo Disagree with that

Told you she had feleings by that pointo I don’t recall when she had feleings, but we had a relationship way before that point

This day, you told her loved hero Disagree with that

She told you she had feelings tooo Disagree with that

Convo about ageo At that point disagree, other convo

Toy said it didn’t mattero Don’t recall

You gave exAMPLES, your mother and fathero About 10 year age gap

13o Yes

Prophet o Disagree

Aunt set up uncle 10 years oldero Disagree

That day told love hero Dosagree with that

First kissed hero Disagree with that

Following weekend, drove to Wollongongo As I stated earlier, many times drove to W, but disagree at that time, don’t recall

Don’t recall time in Mayo Don’t recall

Had sex for first timeo Disagree with that, we had sex many many months before that

You went to beach, freezing, went back to the caro I recall having sexual itnerwouse with GS in Dec 97

Simply did not happen in Dec 97o Disagree

First happened May 1998

o Disagree Following meeting in park

o Disagree Relationship developed over the phone and personal meeting over period of time

o Disagree After this, met her gmother

o I remember travelling down there a couple of times, one clear memory of visiting house

Lived thereo Yes

You attended there, met hero One point in time yes

Camped down there togethero Yes

Also met her familyo Yes

Borthero Yes

Her friendso Megan

Megan only friendo No, I met her cousin Sharon

Sharleeno Sharon

Sharleen is her nameo Cant remember her nameo Jenny, visited them

Megan, the same one who also knew SMo I cant recall when met SM, but sure she knew of SM

Touch of Pariseo Correct

And you recall Sharleen, her cousino Yes

Lived with Sharleen fro 6 monthso Stayed there for couple of months

Signed leaseo Don’t recall signing lease

Don’t recall meeting Sharleen at mothers houseo No

Met her at end of 1998o Don’t recall when

Met her at address in Panania, lving there because returned from overseaso I remember she rented a place in Padstow Davies Roado Early in year 2000, it was after I’d moved back home I had a convo with GS, she

suggested I could stay at Sharleen’s place couple of nights a week In 2000

o As best as I can remember

Disagree you first met her in Dec 98o I cant recall when first met her

Do you have memory of her living at GS houseo No

Lived there after returning from oso Cant recall her lving there

Discussion about her moving outo No

You and her agreed to move in togethero Disagree with that

Having further difficulties with brothers didn’t want to be homeo Disagree

Feb 1999 for 6 monthso Disagree, any kind of lease

Living with her o Stayed couple of nights a week, the nights I was there it was with GS

Not case at all, you lived there and GS visited youo D

At that itme, when lived there, working at Woolworthso Disagree living there, I did work at a Wool in Padstow for a period of time

10 min walk from that placeo It’s not far from that address

HSC year Stopped living with her in Aug 1999 when she moved to Aubury with her fiancé

o Disagree Lived with parents

o Disagree Moved into different room, lock room

o D Not a single family member visited you at Padstow house

o D No one visted you

o Do Didn’t live there, sued it as a place to spend time together o Granny flat was small, wasn’t as much privacy, place with cousin allowed us to relax

a bit more, can have time alone You are saying the only time at Padstow address was when with Gaye

o Yes Didn’t stay there independatly with Sharleen

o May have been a few nights GS left to go home and I slept A few times you were there without GS

o Only a few times How many times

o Cant recall Own room

o No, few bags with belongings Cousin Sharleen, remained friends with her after moved to A

o Disagree Didn’t go to her wedding

o GS invoted me to her wedding Went to Sharleen’s wedding

o Did go down to Canberra to wedding Still with GS

o Yes Still in relationship

o Yes Wedding in Jan 2001

o Cant recall Still in relationship, because relaitonshop didn’t end to end of 2001

o Our relationshoip ended before thato Few times we were together, but relationship by that point had fizzled out

At what pointo We didn’t have much of a relationship at that point

Didn’t have relationship at that point?o Not much of oneo Still in sexual relationship, meet up couple of times but relationship

Now saying not in relationshipo We were in a sexual relationship

NYE 97, year finished year 10o Correct

Still friendly with MHo Correct

Saw eachother in holidayso Recall once, maybe couple of times

Agree to spend NYE togethero Donmt recall that

Intention to go to partyo Cant recall

You and MH spend NYE in 97 with his cousin o Cant recall

MH asked to driveo Cant recall

Knew GS had a connection to Wo Cant recall

Knew MH also had GS numbero No I didn’t know that

Picked up togethero I cant recall

With cousin Nabilo Cant recall

Cousin didn’t go to schoolo Cant recall

Plan was to attend party, she would drive you downo Cant recall

This night was first time met Megano Remember meeting her in 98

Don’t remember meeting her NYE 97o No

She was upseto No

There to spend time with GSo I don’t recall

Recall anything about this nighto Don’t recall

They spend night togethero Don’t recall

MH and N went to party, you spent hours thereo Don’t recall

MH and N drinkingo Don’t recall

They got intoxicatedo Don’t recall

So intoxicated they were trying to break into caro Don’t recall

Even though wasn’t plan, drove backo Don’t recall

Don’t recall any of thato No

Don’t recall being with MH while intoxicatedo No

No membero Cant recall

Of course that incident was investigated in 98o Don’t recall

You don’t recall Dept speaking to you about thiso Don’t recall no

No memory of tio Don’t recall

Speaking to Dept 3 June 98o Yes I do

Visitationo Yes I do

By that point MH lefto Don’t recall

GS no longer speaking at shcxoolo No

By that point June 98 relationshop had developed o Yes

Speaking on phoneo Meeting up, speaking on phone

Both had told loved

o No Don’t recall that ever

o At that point no Didn’t know her until last two weeks of school

o I recall lying to them to protect her What abou that bit

o I cant recall what I said, I denied anything they asked about her, anything I said was to protect her

That was the trutho No I disagree

Agree went to Wo Don’t recall that

You told them saw her couple of times at Bankstwon Sqo Dsiagree with that

When you spoke to police, you were of the view she had friends in the Depto Don’t understand

In investigation, they ask you about MHo Don’t recallo I cant recall what they asked me

Morning tea adjournment

Ziyad Ali – examination in chief continued

Before break, asking you about Sharleeno Correct

Suggested lived with her Feb 99 and Aug o Stayed at night couple of nights week

If in relationship with GS said you were o Still involved

You said yeso Still involved

Was when I said wedding in Jan 2001 you said weren’to Sexual onlyo Ended it after

Went all the way to Canberra for someone only in sexual relationshipo Been in relationship for 3 yearso Knew all her family

Photoo Recognise me, GS, GS brother

Photo at Sharleen’s weddingo Quite possible

Don’t remember weddingo Don’t recall

Exhibit A

Put on weight June 98 were in relationship Last 2 weeks, that was the truth

o Disagree In interview went to W, truth

o Disagree with that Bankstown Sq,

o Disagree JVR

o Complaint about her sexual innuendo Was that the truth

o Yeah that is the truth Don’t know anything about relationship between GS and MH

o Don’t recall You gave ev MH told you

o Yes that is what he said Early on, at least before term 3

o Yes Can’t recall exact words said to you

o Yes You can remember having a convo with Megan

o Yes Can remember JVR saying, but cant recall what MH said to you

o Yes Suggest to you that convo didn’t happen, with MH

o Disgaree with that When giving us an account of times, there was this instance that MH said GS wants to go for

a driveo Yes

Green Mazda 121o Yes

Went to her houseo Correct

That was only the second time left schoolo Yes

Sat in car for 15 minutes o I don’t recall seeing MH go in

Never spoke to MH about what happened o Yes

Didn’t tell anyone during none of your friends at schoolo Don’t recall

Aftero Don’t recall

Familyo Don’t recall

Friendso Don’t recall

We hear you say that over and over again in pre-text callo Correct

Havent spoken to her, counselloro Correct

Tell that to policeo Correct

The only person was friend Sameho Yes

You hadn’t had a discussedo Initiallu, she told him, we spoke abou tit

You spoke to him aftero Together with GS

He knew about relationship during ito Yes he did

He was the one person who knewo Yes he definitely knew about it

Appt to see a lawyero Yes

GMPo Yes

Said to us, simple internet searcho Yes

Advice on process if reportedo Yes

In order to get advice on criminal processo Correct

When you did a search, leading sydney no win no fee compensation lawyerso I saw no fee

They advertise add value to your claimo

Experience in claims against schools and teacherso I did not know that

That info you knew at the time, that’s why knew at timeo I didn’t know

Including over 20 years agoo No

Specific firm that deals with civil claimso No knowledge of that

You went there to fiule a statement of claimo No

Statement of claim is to sue state and Depto That was in discussion once we had our discussion

This was the first person you tell about relationshipo I wanted to know abou the process involved, because knew when went to police,

would have to go through series of processes o Suffering severe anxiety, to report that took a long time, a lot of courage

This civil lawyer, specialises in claims first person

o Correct One of the things, first step to go and report complaint to police for investigation

o I kknew I had to go to police, didn’t go to them first, because knew if went to police first, once process started couldn’t stop it

Once made complaint, go back to the firmo She contacted me after a couple of weeks

Person by name of Rochelle Nelsono Correct

First toldo C

Jan 17o C

First report matter to police, second written summaryo Don’t recall, first step was to report to police, and think about whether prepared, be

prepared to go through the hardship, whether prepared to go through that physically, emotionally, financially

Civil firmo Didn’t know what they specialise ino She was very helpful

Case you’ve continued with that civil claim 30 Nov 18 3.23pmo Correct

Same firm initial adviceo C

Contact persono C

Claim continued with to this dayo C

As recently as couple of weeks ago lawyers contacting GSo Correct

Names GS as a second defo Yes

Names State of NSW as first defo C

It says State of NSW is responsible, for BBHSo Not sure what it says

You have names as first defo Dept of Ed, yes

Made a claim for between 1997 and 99o Yes

You say relationship began Sept 97 to mid 2000o C

You say the school is responsible for it overlooked sexualised groomingo That was the legal advice yes

Overlooked o Yes

Sexual intercourse on school premises o C

Overlooked cohabitation in 1999o C

For those reason the State, the dept is responsible o That was the legal advice

They were negligent in hiring her because she had a relationship with previous studento C

In relation to succeed in that claim, had to have a connect to schoolo Don’t know

Happened on school groundso Definitely is

Have to show happened on schoolo Not aware of legal obligations

Critical MH had relationship before youo

Had claim against state tooo Aware of that after stabbingo Pnly way knew that was going on, was asked by lawyer if there at time and knew

anything about ito That’s how I knew abou tito After that reported in media

Judgment handed down in 2009, reported by paperso Don’t remember when released

In Aug 2009, teacher at BBHSo Yes

You were teaching at the schoolo I was teaching during 2009

In Aug 2009o Correct

You were aware because of teaching at school, school was found to be negligento Don’t recall, seeing it in meda

You don’t remember when MH was handed out $627,000o Don’t recall discussing it with anyone at the school at the time

Suggest to you that this relationship falsely began in 1997 to ground your claimo Disagree with that

Occcured on school groudns to ground claimo Disagree

Happened in school hours to ground the claimo Disagree

So can sue not only Gaye, but Depto Disagree

Reported incident in Jan 17o Correct

Following meeting with lawyers who still act wfor youo Correct

You told them struggling to accept what happened and childhood taken awayo Cant remember if those words

Online enquiries

o Don’t recall that Attended Campsie PS because didn’t want people knowing abou tit

o No, attended Campsie because closest Didn’t have a family member at Campsie, Det

o Concern later, when transferred at Bankstown Arrangements made to take stmt

o Correct Once took statement, began to speak to other people to oinvestigate

o I assum so Speak to people you mentioned

o No knowledge Applied for warrants to listen to call

o Yes Proactive in investigation

o We had regular contact Almost weekly

o Yes Wanting to know where inv was up to

o Yes I did ask him Wanting copy of stmt for civil lawyer

o Yes Number of occ

o At her request Asked police for that and followed it up

o She request that I asked To give to civil lawyer

o She requested OIC said could have the stmt until G charged

o Correct Shortly after, G charged and stmt given to you

o Yes Statement for 18 months

o Yes Learnt it

o Don’t have to learn it, it is what happened Memorise it

o Can’t forget it, that is what happened All the general convo’s from 20 years ago, remembered in specific detail

o There are memories I can not forget Such as JVR

o Yes very clear memories {recise sreet

o Yes Directions

o I was able to tell yes which streets we took to certain locations Precise drinks

o Yes absolutely

Precise hand movementso Yes

Memorised that sttaemnto Disagree

No independent memory because they didn’t happen as describedo No

Script you have prepared and followed in courto I disagree

Lunch adjournment

C: D asked first time sexual relations in May 1998, extent traverse 293

HH: Understand it was in context of with her. Check transcript tomorrow

Ziyad Ali – cross examination continued

Before lunch break, talking to you about stmto Yes

Had it since Jan 18o Yes

Opportunity to memoriseo I didn’t memorise, I did read it a few times

Had to memorise it because you didn’t have independent memory of those eventso Correct

Didn’t happen as described, you disagreedo Yes

Scripto Yes

Disagreed with thato Yes

Show you copy of your statement Recognise as your stmt

o Yes 26 pages

o Yes Signed on 2 May 2017

o Yes Para 17, page 3, giving ev before us last Wed and Thurs

o Yes Ev on Wednesday

o Yes First day you described these events

o Yes First convo you recall with GS, “you’re very handsome today”

o Correct

Next comment, “you’re really cute”o You are really cute

Remember her asking gf, page 51 line 6o Yes

Shy in nature o Yes correct

Next convo, page 51, L 55. Page 20, what say Next convo, aren’t we a sexy man today

o Aren’t we a sexy man today Hot legs Next thing in quotation, you have really cute eyes

o You’re eyes are cute, you have deep eyes Next convo, page 53, L8 Next thing, do you find me attractive, para 23

o Do you think that I am attractive Next convo, don’t worry it is totally normal Pg 53, L 41 Page 54, L 7 Para 24, Next convo, L 21, you’re going to have to meet me out the front

o Nod Para 24

o Correct We could do this through entire stmt, because almost every single convo is word for work.

Agree or disagreeo I disagree

Reason why is because memorisedo Disagree

Didn’t happeno Had to replay those conv for my life

Pre-text call, prior to that call, discussions with policeo Yes

Updated you on progress of invo Yes

They made appts with you to discuss purpose of pre-text callo Yeah there were some conversations

10 August o Yes

Talk about strategies, Q and Ao Don’t recall exactly what discussed

Role playo Don’t recall

GS surprised to hear from youo Correct

Appears concerned for you HH transcript of convo, he should have it, MFI 5 Front of document

Short adjournment

Jury note

MFI 7: Can we please have a copy of the transcript, can we also have a list of witnesses

Read out names of witnesses, names read out by the Crown

HH: Will have that tomorrow

HH found witnesses, full witnesses read out but not all will be called due to streamlined

Ziyad Ali – cross-examination continued

Questions about pre-text callo Yes

Familiarlise transcript accept copyo Yes

At beginning of call surprised to hear from youo Yes

Genuine concern for your welfare, asks of familyo She did ask if I was alright

Asked about your dad and mumo She did ask about my dad

She said she has a four year old, hear in backgroundo Yes

She continues on call almost an houro Yes

Doesn’t hang up at all when you said goodbyeo Yes

When you agree call another timeo Yes

Not a secret relationshipo Yes

Not been positive for either of you Obj Crown HH opinion of yours injecting into it The only specifics you talk about is at page 28, you took me in your car

o Obj Crown Above, page 28, she says “I don’t have any answers…” “took me in your car”

o Yes I see it Later on page, you don’t remember when you drove me to PP

o I see that Those two are the only specifics. You never say store room

o No You don’t say regularly go to house HH witness should have opportunity to go through transcript

What I am suggesting, your statement sets out very specific allegations of when these things occurred in 1997,

o Correct In that call you don’t outline the allegations

o I agree Talk more in general terms

o I agree More about relationships

o I agree You don’t talk abou them because know she would deny it

o I knew she would hang up She would deny it

o She was already questioning She didn’t specify each of the allegations knew would deny it

o Disagree Didn’t mention MH

o I agree Knew she would deny it

o I knew she would deny any specifics I brought up because she would have hung up and she wouldn’t have answered anything

Suggest to your relationshoip positive at the beginningo In 97?

In 1998, when relationship began it began positively Discussed marriage and children and said she brought it up

o Yes Became more negative

o Had a negative effect on me In 1999 and 2000 regular arguments

o I don’t recall Arguments about religion and relationship

o Disagree any arguments about religiono Can’t recall any arguments specifically

Broke up end of 2001o No

Maintained contact every 6 months or soo Disagree

Show up at granny flato D

Call her at timeso D

Change her number, find out her number and call hero D

Find out what school she worked out and callo D

Leave noteso D

Told us one time

o There was one time I left note More than once

o D After she changed number and couldn’t contact her anymore

oo