VEGAN PETFOOD MYTHS DEBUNKED.Many do not realise there ARE VEGAN PETFOODS ! so let us debunk that myth at once for starters lol.as at 10th June 2018...VEGAN CAT AND DOG FOODS have existed for YEARS !

EEEK ! news to many hey ! now COMMERCIAL vegan dog and cat foods have been provided for decades even now. The major Petfood suppliers like Royal Canin have been doing a Vegan Petfood for years ! for pets who got SICK on animal content foods ! another term  often for these plant based petfoods has been hypoallergenic. Dalmations, Pancreas sick dogs...all sorts of allergies to animal content pets have been fed plant based petfoods for years. Living long lives after the change much healthier than they had been on non vegan. Then the Organic high quality gmo free Vegan petfoods arrived.

BEFORE THAT ? even now…peasant hunting high energy dogs such as Laikas ( Laikas are a much more extreme breed of primitive dog than huskies that people parade around with on leads as unsafe off leads in urban not natural to them environments btw) were fed VEGGIE SLOPS always as STANDARD as MEAT was considered too EXPENSIVE to waste on dogs lol. Cats ? people did not buy cats any PETFOOD lol...cats are an invasive species to UK and USA and Australia etc cats petfoods ! it is “unnatural”...for humans to feed other animals.

THIS and others like her.are who we are talking about now btw…Christmas, a turkey hen born bred by HUMANS to suffer and be killed. For for whom ? her life ? how MANY of her for 1 "pet" ?

Petfoods. Cat Dog Ferret Petfood issues and supplies of Vegan Petfood. 10 th June 2018.

The average non vegan human over a lifetime consumes about 22 thousand animals for food. Dogs and cats have much shorter lives…but still if fed non vegan can cause the deaths of thousands of animals each, most of which are decisions that humans make for them nothing to do with any choice of theirs since they have no choices about where they live go out etc.

How 1 pet fed vegan can save the lives of 3000 animals over it’s lifetime if not fed RAW

or 900 animals if not fed standard non vegan but 80 percent veggies and 20 percent animal flesh kibble or wetfood.

COMMON MYTHS DEBUNKED explained about Vegan Petfoods: see below in file doc.

Here are some hard facts. And please someone explain if possible …why a so called VEGAN would believe in defiance of the world vet organisations advice…that feeding as some boast they do…RAW to their dogs and cats is ethically justifiable ? or even nutritionally justifiable ? well that last question should be addressed not to me I suggest but the world vet organisations who make such strong criticisms of all raw petfood diets !

In short…3000 animals over the lifetime of 1 PET would be killed to feed RAW. USING the provided link on quantities etc to feed an average pet by the raw petfood promoters websites clearly publically visible.

900 animals bred and killed to feed a pet if fed the 80 percent veggies and 20 percent flesh or crap ground bones content kibble and wet non vegan standard foods.

Can any “vegan” explain how this can be justified morally ? It is HUMANS who make the decisions…about everything about the life of a PET…where they live…how they live…what they eat…so ? explain how one can call oneself VEGAN if one is choosing to take the lives of so many animals for just 1 PET animal that has been proven to have no need to live off other animals’ lives ?

I am an accountant. Numbers matter to me. I see no logic in killing an animal to feed another animal when I know that is not necessary…let alone thousands of animals over 1 pet’s lifetime.

Some more WORLD VET ORGANISATIONS views links and quotes provided in file attached doc.

If I had found any making statements AGAINST VEGAN DIETS I would have included those links…they have had PLENTY TIME to have done so by now.

And not all links to information found but many here listed also…

http://vegan-information.com/Vegan_Dogs_and_Cats.html

I and many do not call ourselves VEGANS unless we practice the principles of veganism…which includes not feeding our “PETS” non vegan as that means causing the deaths of other animals unnecessarily and involves BREEDING animals and KILLING MORE than 1 of them for 1 “Pet”. Being VEGAN means causing the LEAST harm possible. Meaning numbers killed matter.

100 percent Vegan and 100 percent British dog and cat and ferret vegan petfoods that have passed petfood standard requirements.

Benevo Organic. https://www.veggiepets.com/

Great news is the Benevo is now being offered to the range in Canada !

6 Main 100 percent Vegan Company Manufacturers....EVOLUTION (USA) AMI (Italy) BENEVO (Britain) V-DOG (USA) KETUN (USA) as at end of 2017. Veggieanimals (Spain)

KIBBLES/Wet Tinned ready made commercial petfood...NO SUPPLEMENTS needed other than occasional Dental cleaning Plaque off and / or Dorwest Seaweeds.

only 1 manufacturer however does specific for KITTENS kibble/wetfood...EVOLUTION of the USA

http://vegan-information.com/Vegan_Cat_and_Dog_Food_Brands_and_Suppliers_Worldwide.xlsx summary of who does dog, cat, puppy or kitten commercial food.

Evolution Diet - http://www.petfoodshop.com ADULT CATS, ADULT DOGS, PUPPIES, KITTENS (USA)

V-Dog - https://v-dog.com ADULT DOGS

Ami - http://www.amipetfood.com/en ADULT CATS AND ADULT DOGS and PUPPIES (ITALY)

Benevo - http://www.benevo.com ADULT DOGS AND CATS and PUPPIES. (not kittens) (Britain)

Ketun - http://ketunpet.com/ ADULT DOGS and PUPPIES USA online sales.

Veggieanimals - https://www.veggieanimals.com/ ADULT CATS AND ADULT DOGS...SPAIN ! distributors/sellers in SPAIN and online sales.

Vegan Brands of Cat and Dog Foods Simple Product List According to Category of Companion Animal. https://www.compassioncircle.com/ does ALL lifestages for HOME MADE with RECIPES. Adult and Young Dogs and Cats.

Brand Name Origin Website Link

1 Ami Italy http://www.amipetfood.com/en

2 V-Dog USA https://v-dog.com

3 Evolution USA http://www.petfoodshop.com/

4 Benevo Britain http://www.benevo.com

5 Ketun USA http://ketunpet.com/

6 Veggieanimals Spain https://www.veggieanimals.com/

ADULT DOGS:

1 Ami Italy http://www.amipetfood.com/en

2 V-Dog USA https://v-dog.com

3 Evolution USA http://www.petfoodshop.com/

4 Benevo Britain http://www.benevo.com

5 Ketun USA http://ketunpet.com/

6 Veggieanimals Spain https://www.veggieanimals.com/

PUPPIES:

1 Ami Italy http://www.amipetfood.com/en

2 Evolution USA http://www.petfoodshop.com/

3 Benevo Britain http://www.benevo.com

4 Ketun USA http://ketunpet.com/

ADULT CATS:

1 Ami Italy http://www.amipetfood.com/en

2 Evolution USA http://www.petfoodshop.com/

3 Benevo Britain http://www.benevo.com

4 Veggieanimals Spain https://www.veggieanimals.com/

KITTENS:

1 Evolution USA http://www.petfoodshop.com/

(Evolution not found on sale in Europe 2018)

FERRETS:

Evolution of the USA produces vegan petfoods suitable for ferrets.AMI of Italy also produces vegan petfoods suitable for ferrets.Compassion Circle, Vegepets provide the supplements and home made recipes suitable for ferrets.

Links to the companies / suppliers already provided in the cat/dog/puppy/kitten links above and easy to contact the vets suppliers of the foods contact details on the links of their websites to ask more details. Things change over time…more may provide or state suitable later or cease doing their products companies get taken over etc etc reasons. As pet ownership declines..as is the objective of a truly vegan world…there will one day in the ideal be NO “petfood” suppliers.

SUPPLEMENTS FOR HOME MADE COMPANION ANIMAL FOODS

Vegedog https://www.compassioncircle.com/

Vegecat https://www.compassioncircle.com/

VEGEPUP for PUPPIES https://www.compassioncircle.com/

Vegekit™ https://www.compassioncircle.com/is a supplement used by caretakers to cook nutritionally complete home-made meals for kittens and pregnant/lactating cats.

Vegecat™ https://www.compassioncircle.com/ is a supplement used by caretakers to cook nutritionally complete home-made meals for their cats. Adding Vegecat™ ensures that the home-made cat food contains all of the essential nutrients, vitamins and minerals.

Kittens. http://mail.vegepet.com/vegetarian_cats/vegekit_for_kittens.html

Kittens (up to 12 months old) need Vegekit™ supplement, formulated for growth.

Vegecat™ or Vegecat phi™? http://mail.vegepet.com/vegetarian_cats/vegecat_kibblemix.html

Most adult cats thrive on Vegecat™. Furthermore, Vegecat™ is the preferred product for older cats with weaker kidneys, unless they have a known urinary issue, in which case Vegecat phi™ would be a better option.

ps the favorite home made recipy using Compassion Circle vegeyeast, vegedog and green mush supplements now available from uk veggiepets is the lentils recipy. darned expensive to buy ORGANIC LENTILS from wholefoods uk is my only gripe ! 4. Lentil2-1/2 DAYS FOOD

Protein 29% • Fat 8.5% • Calories 2962

10-1/4 cups of cooked lentils (2kg/2.4L). Start with3-1/2 cups uncooked lentils (700g).2-2/3 tbsp. VegeYeast or yeast powder (24g)3-1/2 tbsp. sunflower oil (49g/52mL)2-1/2 tbsp. ground flaxseed (17.5g)4-1/2 tsp. Vegedog™ (20g)1/3 tsp. salt (1.4g) OR 1/2 tbsp. soy sauce (10g/7.4mL)</span line-height: 20px>Optional: Seasonings such as parsley, basil, spirulina, Green Mush,™ AND/OR up to 1 cup steamed or chopped veggies (150g).

Soak lentils in cold water for two hours. Drain, cover with water, and cook until soft, or sprout for one day. Sprouted lentils need to be broken up in a food processor or blender for dogs. Drain before using. ps grind flaxseed/linseed FRESH and use at once as once ground and in contact with air goes off and loses omegas. I do not understand why wholefoods sell "ground" linseed ...made a mistake and now buy the seeds themselves.Manage

COMMON MYTHS DEBUNKED explained about Vegan Petfoods:

Some people feel it is OK even FINE to feed their pet dog or cat non vegan RAW FLESH BARF often called diets or NON VEGAN commercial petfoods (which btw are 80 percent veggies on average only 20 percent cancerous etc animal flesh or ground up bones content called meal) because people believe that only BYPRODUCTS of animals killed for HUMAN consumption or leather carseats etc etc are used in petfoods such as ground up beaks, feet, cancerous bone marrow, offal that actually can have the highest concentration of cancerous flesh as that is where toxins are dealt with in such animal organs…etc etc

I provide some figures...to again say it is a myth to believe only byproducts of animals bred and killed primarily for humans is only in petfood or mainly in petfood. even if this were true...by paying the huge money those products make the businesses it supports that killing business and makes the human meat therefore cheaper so actually supporting bigtime the animal agriculture breeding and killing animals industries...these by products are not given FREE to the petfood industry ! they make the animal agriculture business big money ! makes it easier to sell the HUMAN grade dead flesh ! logical.

However....it is a myth to think animals are not bred specifically in huge numbers of millions just for uk petfoods specifically. i give now...the figure of the least common animal to show how many are killed...it is easily verifiable...and i was in this industry...rabbits...300 thousand per year are bred and killed for uk petfood consumption alone. fact. 300 000. think about it. huge numbers. are those the only animals ? ooh no. lambs cows chickens etc are also bred specifically for petfood sales in the uk. here are some more figures and names...and i do not say boycott the few i do name because they are the tip of the iceberg of Animals killed for UK Petfoods.

300 000 rabbits per year and those are the least common petfood animal used hey.

According to commercial suppliers, the raw food market has exploded in the last three to four years.22 per cent year-on-year growth

Quote from a June 2018 public website of a petfood uk supplier…”Our recipes are made from a single British meat source (lamb, beef, chicken, turkey, venison or rabbit), fresh chicken bone (except for our chicken-free recipe), fresh organ meat, seasonal, fresh vegetables and herbs. There is absolutely nothing else in there.The Turkey range details:

Our food contains nothing but the finest, freshest, human grade ingredients. 80% raw meat and bone, 20%”NO BYPRODUCTS NO OFFAL PURE MEAT OF HUMAN GRADE. bred to be killed for petfood.https://www.cotswoldraw.com/active-80-20/Turkey-sausage-active-500g

82 per cent of beef and 65 per cent of lamb. And 20 per cent of the raw materials used in UK pet-food production come from outside the UK.

Burns a uk petood producer of kibbles etc…raises ALL the chickens bred and killed specifically for petfood on their farm and buy in MORE chickens lamb beef etc specifically for petfood. Clear on their website. however others use also specifically bred to be killed for petfood animals. do NOT be comforted by MYTHS when facts are there to show the truths is what i say finally on this matter of "comforting lies" spread around to make people feel better about feeding pets non vegan. It is as bad as the "comforting lies" non vegans tell themselves about "happy cows" labels seen again i add today in Tesco wrexham...HAPPY COWS ...for cheese dairy adverts. huge banners. not mentioning yearly taking babies away and killing them.

Veterinary associations such as the American Veterinary Medical Association, British Veterinary Association and Canadian Veterinary Medical Association have warned of the animal and public health risk that could arise from feeding raw meat to pets and have stated that there is no scientific evidence to support the claimed benefits of raw feeding.NONE have made such statements against VEGAN PETFOODS which pass the aafco nutrients standards and often exceed them and have never had a recall unlike non vegan petfoods often have.

………………

Other MYTHS ?

That Vegan Petfoods have not passed any valid nutrition for pets standards.

1. No world vet organisation has made any statements AGAINST vegan diets for pets. ALL have made statements AGAINST RAW FLESH FED DIETS for pets.

2. No vegan petfoods on the market have had any RECALLS. PLENTY non vegan and raw flesh petfoods have had recalls. Too many to list all the links of here now.

3. Cats will die on vegan diets myth. Cats have lived YEARS on vegan diets already to date…thousands of them. It is logical that if nutrition were inadequate serious problems would manifest themselves fast…some of course take years to develop like cancers for example but since non vegan fed pets get cancers etc often due to their petfoods people know since many toxins and cancerous animal parts are in non vegan petfoods …how come no balanced diets vegan cats have been dying en masse proven to be due to their vegan diets ?

4. Surviving is not Thriving myth. The idea that cats or dogs are simply surviving but not as energetic or healthy as they should be on vegan diets is a myth. Vet tests exist …cat and dog owners can do urine tests and blood tests which show no issues with known health problems that such tests are designed to show. Plenty videos of hyper active dogs and cats around to see them running and energetic with shiney coats etc on their vegan diets.

5. Myth that no scientific evidence exits to support vegan petfoods. 1stly. Petfoods have to pass standards to be allowed to be sold generally. These commercial sold vegan petfoods HAVE passed these standards. 2ndly. Highly qualified scientists and vets have published articles based on studies for both dogs and cats…the working huskeys example being imho the most impressive…the vegan fed working huskies had better health tests than the non vegan fed ones. Cats too were scientifically tested and positive results too. Links to such studies easily findable on the links page provided.

6. Pets do not cause the deaths for their non vegan petfoods of any other animals myth debunked…how MANY deaths do their non vegan diets actually cause over their lifetimes ? Besides the killed by invasive not natural domestic cat species outside hunting 30 percent of the birds etc wildlife numbers reduction caused…

Here are some hard facts. And please someone explain …why a so called VEGAN believes in defiance of the world vet organisations advice…that feeding as some boast they do…RAW to their dogs and cats is ethically justifiable ? or even nutritionally justifiable ? well that last question should be addressed not to me I suggest but the world vet organisations who make such strong criticisms of all raw petfood diets !

In short…3000 animals over the lifetime of 1 PET would be killed to feed RAW.

900 animals bred and killed if fed the 80 percent veggies and 20 percent flesh or crap ground bones content kibble and wet non vegan standard foods.

The UK has under 20 million pet dogs and cats in total so to feed those for their lifetimes would mean breeding and killing 60 billion animals if fed RAW/BARF over 15 years total lifetimes. 4 billion animals per year if all fed RAW. 3000 animals eaten per 1 pet 15 year lifetime if fed RAW. 200 animals per pet per year if fed RAW.

Compared to 18 billion animals if they were all fed only 30 percent flesh based kibble for their 15 year lifetimes. 1 billion per year on mix kibble. 60 animals per pet per year on mix kibble.

The USA has about 200 million pet dogs and cats in total so to feed those for their lifetimes would mean breeding and killing 600 billion animals if fed RAW/BARF over 15 years. 40 billion animals per year if all fed RAW. 3000 animals eaten per 1 pet lifetime if fed RAW.  200 animals per pet per year if fed RAW.

Compared to 180 billion animals if they were all fed only 30 percent flesh based kibble   for their 15 year lifetimes. 12 billion per year on mix kibble. 60 animals per pet per year.

The average non vegan kibble petfood is about 30 percent dead animal content...so ? assuming 80 percent of pets (160 million pets) are fed kibble not RAW that means ? less dead other animals killed to feed pets compared to RAW feeding...would be maybe 144 BILLION ANIMALS BRED and killed to feed the kibble fed PETS in the USA and if 20 percent of the 200 million pets (40 million pets) are fed RAW an additional 120 BILLION ANIMALS BRED and killed to feed the RAW FED PETS in the USA over a 15 year period/lifetime of the 200 million usa pets dogs and cats.

Total currently being therefore 264 BILLION ANIMALS BRED AND KILLED to feed 200 million current level of home owned USA PET OWNED DOGS AND CATS. Based on 20 percent fed RAW and 80 percent fed KIBBLE mix. (over average pets lifetimes of 15 years basis) 18 billion animals per year. (200 animals per year on RAW/BARF per pet and 60 animals per year on 30 percent flesh kibble per pet)

Britain PETFOOD deaths of other animals involved based on the same split of kibble / RAW fed as 80/20 would mean the 20 million current levels of British Pet dogs and cats on average currently cause the breeding and killing of  26 BILLION animals size/weight of rabbits/chickens over their average pet lifetime of 15 years basis. 2 billion animals per year. RAW pet consumes 3000 animals Kibble fed pet consumes 900 in a pet lifetime.

Average number of Killed for pet food animals in an average 15 year lifetime for a RAW fed pet is 3000 animals(200 animals per year)...and for a Kibble mix fed pet is 900 (60 animals per year). Based on rabbit/chicken sized animals. (If fish many more lives of course) but lets stick with general averages based on rabbits and chickens common petfood animals.

7. Pets are part of a natural ecosystem. Now I do not think most sane people actually believe that pets are part of the ecosystem..natural…but just in case ! I remind us…that humans have bred pets as they have bred farm breed animals to design of what HUMANS wanted not a natural evolution process to arrive at the peculiar squashed faced short legs long haired or short haired ears this and that aspects of dogs and cats ! Farm animals like pigs bear only passing resemblance to a wild hog ! and like our pet dogs and cats look and walk etc totally differently. Cats are an invasive species In Europe and the USA and Australia…the DOMESTIC cat species that is…who cause at LEAST proven 30 percent reduction of REAL WILDLIFE ! African domestic dogs cause devastating illnesses and reductions to the real wild canine species by transmiting diseases to them. Etc etc.

What is the EFFECT on MEAT PRODUCTION caused by PETS fed non vegan ? minimal you think ? think again. MASSIVE !

Here is the scientific analysis of what that huge quantity of animal production by HUMANS is for PETFOODS that are non vegan…

And using COMMON SENSE…think about it…350 million humans in the USA…and 200 million dogs and cats. Dogs and cats need HIGHER protein levels in their food than humans despite their smaller sizes. So ? obviously if getting their protein from bred to be killed animal flesh they are HUGE meat consumers causing deaths of many bred by humans to be killed animals.

How many animals does 1 cat or dog cause the deaths of in a lifetime if fed non vegan ? if fed RAW then about

Cats, dogs responsible for up to 30% of meat environmental impact in USDuring his research – which was published in the journal PLOS One – Okin discovered that cats and dogs are responsible for 25 to 30 percent of the environmental impact of meat consumption in the United States. Alison Hewitt writes for UCLA:

If Americans' 163 million Fidos and Felixes comprised a separate country, their fluffy nation would rank fifth in global meat consumption, Okin calculated, behind only Russia, Brazil, the United States and China. And it all has to go somewhere – America's pets produce about 5.1 million tons of feces in a year, as much as 90 million Americans. If all that were thrown in the trash, it would rival the total trash production of Massachusetts – from the humans, at least.As we've written about extensively, meat requires more energy, land and water to produce than that required by a plant-based diet. Okin cites previous studies that found that the American diet "produces the equivalent of 260 million tons of carbon dioxide from livestock production. By calculating and comparing how much meat 163 million cats and dogs eat compared to 321 million Americans, Okin determined how many tons of greenhouse gases are tied to pet food," notes Hewitt.

In his research, Okin found that American cats and dogs consume a surprising 19 percent as many calories as do American people – our pets eat the same amount of calories as the entire population of France eats in a year. And since cats and dogs don't eat salad and fries – but mostly meat – they eat about 25 percent of the total calories that comes from animals in the U.S.One of the more interesting takeaways, for me at least, is what this could mean for pet food. Traditionally there have been a lot of bits and pieces in pet food that humans would not eat – but as pet pampering reaches astronomical proportions, people are increasingly buying premium pet foods comprised of quality meat suitable for human consumption. Although it's easy to anthropomorphize our pets and think that nothing short of human-grade meat is acceptable for them, a switch in that thinking would make an impact."A dog doesn't need to eat steak," Okin says. "A dog can eat things a human sincerely can't. So what if we could turn some of that pet food into people chow?"Okin says that if 25 percent of the meat in pet food was eaten by humans instead, it would be around the same amount of meat consumed by 26 million Americans.

APPENDICES:1. Links to RECALLS of non vegan petfoods…too numerous to list

here but easily findable on the web.Non vegan standard 80 percent veggies and 20 percent flesh based kibbles and wetfoods have been subject to many recalls in the petfood industry. NONE of the vegan petfoods have.RAW flesh based petfoods have also been subject to many recalls.

https://petsci.co.uk/tag/pet-food/ and guess what ? the tests done proved 10 out of 12 of so called devoid of animal products hypoallergenic petfoods had the very animal products in them that were giving the pets allergies ! There are so many cases...official and unofficial of such health problems caused not just by recalls but poor non vegan ingredients. https://www.pets4homes.co.uk/pet-advice/will-changing-my-dogs-food-stop-their-itching.html "The Study's Findings: The study was carried out by veterinary nutritionists at the Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine, Massachusetts and they found that many of the claims made by pet food manufacturers could not be substantiated.  In fact, researchers found that many of the pet foods claiming to promote healthier skin and coat conditions contained ingredients that were known to be the triggers of many skin disorders seen in dogs and which were typically caused by CARFs. Vets have found the foods that tend

to be the triggers include the following: Beef, Dairy, Wheat, Egg, Chicken" LAMB is a common Epilepsy trigger also.

Oh just 2 extras for CATS…COWS MILK..ANY ANIMALS MILK is BAD FOR CATS. I really am not listing all the expert easy to find references on this.

AND FISH is BAD FOR CATS. I am not listing again the MANY expert references on this.

THEY EXIST ! so MANY NON VEGAN CATFOODS contain FISH and DAIRY is given to cats hey. Just one excerpt then…

“Why Fish is Dangerous for Catsby Jean Hofve DVM • December 13, 2016 

A lot of cats have learned to love fish, but it’s not a natural feline food; and it’s really not a good idea to feed it to your cat. Why not? Because it is simply not safe to feed fish to cats (and humans should be very careful about eating it themselves, and especially about feeding it to their children!). Here’s why:

Quality

Most fish used in canned pet foods comes from the decaying leftovers of the seafood industry around the world. It is a mishmash that’s high in phosphorus and magnesium, which can be a serious problem in cats with a history of urinary tract disorders or kidney disease. In practice, I have seen many cats develop urinary tract infections and blockages if they eat fish—even canned tuna. After I shared one meal of halibut with my three cats, within hours two of them had urinary tract flare-ups, and by 6 a.m. I had my boy kitty on the surgery table while I inserted a catheter. It’s even worse if, as is most common, the fish are simply ground up, bones and all. Excess phosphorus is dangerous for kitties with kidney disfunction; there is as much phosphorus as calcium in bones.

Feline-Specific Concerns

Many cats are sensitive or even allergic to fish; it is one of the top three most common feline food allergens.

Fish-based foods contain high levels of histamine, a protein involved in allergic reactions.” Etc etc.

HERE IS 1 OF SEVERAL scientific studies based on Autopsies at end of lives of Wild Species Cats Lions etc...links one research of the wild cat lions tested on autopsies to have 74 percent uti and kidney health problems on their of course flesh diets lol...STOP ! HALT ! "Renal lesions were present in 52 cats (74%)" so contrary to claims of domestic cat RAW feeding advisors...the CAT SPECIES on Raw diets has a HUGE problem with uti and kidneys on flesh diets. http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0300985810382089 STOP ! too much info. SIMPLE

IS...IT IS ABOUT NUMBERS...HOW MANY ? will I harm or kill or be the cause of harming and killing ? ...do the LEAST harm possible to live morally or if one wants a word like "vegan" label.

2. Links to scientific studies published on vegan petfoods… not all listed here more do exist in various languages so I just put some of the English language ones here as examples.

Most vegan cat owners have done blood tests and urine tests on their vegan cats. Cats as a species are prone to different specific health problems…UTI (urinary crystals) ad Kidney problems being the most prevalent different to Dogs, Canines. It has been proven scientifically several times by research that WILD CATS like lions tigers etc based on AUTOPSIES post mortums have 74 percent evidence of UTI/Kidney health problems and those as we know live on flesh diets. These health problems are NOT simply as some raw feeders claim caused by modern commercial petfood diets. They are primarily a genetic weakness of the cat species, that domestic cats fed raw diets also get urinary crystals etc is also a fact.

Most vegan dog owners also have regular vet health tests done on their dogs. Less important than for cats as not a canine species high weakness but possible are urinary simple tests done but also blood tests.

Some scientific studies...suggest whilst useful to do more studies and monitoring...there are studies ! listed here..

CATS:

.http://www.vegepets.info /diets/veg-feline.html#a-population-study  

1. quote..."Based on his experiences with thousands of vegan cats Gillen (2003) states that 85-90% of vegetarian cats do not require attention to dietary content; however, for the remaining 10-15%, urinary pH and dietary magnesium concentrations (see following) require monitoring" .

2. Wakefield LA, Shofer FS, MIchel KE. Evaluation of cats fed vegetarian diets and attitudes of their caregivers. J Amer Vet Med Assoc 2006; 229(1): 70-73.

3. Leon A, Bain SA, Levick WR. Hypokalaemic episodic polymyopathy in cats fed a vegetarian diet. Aust Vet J 1992; 69(10): 249-254.

4. Eric Weisman, Evolution Diet CEO (2004) stated, “We have ten to twenty thousand healthy and long living dogs, cats and ferrets living on the Evolution Diet

5. In 2006 veterinarians Dr Lorelei Wakefield and colleagues published the following study comparing the health status of 34 cats maintained on vegetarian diets, and 52 maintained on conventional diets, for at least one year. No significant differences existed in age, sex, body condition, housing, or perceived health status between the two groups. Most of the caregivers in both groups described their cats as healthy or generally healthy. To my knowledge, this is the only study published to date of the health status of cats maintained on nutritionally sound vegetarian diets.

6. Little Tyke Lioness quoted example BIRTH 2 Sep 1946Tacoma, Pierce County, Washington, USADEATH 20 Jul 1955 (aged 8)Auburn, King County, Washington, USABURIAL Pet Haven CemeteryKent, King County, Washington, USAMEMORIAL ID 79765238 · View Source https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/79765238/little_tyke-westbeauDOGS:

http://www.vegepets.info/diets/veg-canine.html#references1. Sprint-racing huskies

Very few dogs have greater energy needs than sprint-racing huskies. Accordingly, a 2009 study published in the British Journal of Nutrition compared the health, and in particular, the haematological

parameters (focusing on red blood cell counts) of six such dogs with six others maintained on a commercial meat-based diet for 16 weeks, including 10 weeks of competitive racing. Haematology results for all dogs were within the normal range throughout the study and the consulting veterinarian assessed all dogs to be in excellent physical condition. No dogs developed anaemia. On the contrary, red blood cell counts and haemoglobin values increased significantly over time in both groups.

Brown WY et al. An experimental meat-free diet maintained haematological characteristics in sprint-racing sled dogs. Brit J Nutr 2009; 102: 1318–1323.Download (98 kb).

A dog’s nutrient requirements can theoretically be met from a properly balanced meat-free diet; however, proof for this is lacking. Exercise places additional demands on the body, and dogs fed a meat-free diet may be at increased risk of developing sports anaemia. We hypothesised that exercising dogs would remain in good health and not develop anaemia when fed a nutritionally balanced meat-free diet. To this end, twelve sprint-racing Siberian huskies were fed either a commercial diet recommended for active dogs (n 6), or a meat-free diet formulated to the same nutrient specifications (n 6). The commercial diet contained 43% poultry meal, whereas soyabean meal and maize gluten made up 43% of the meat-free diet, as the main protein ingredients. Dogs were fed these diets as their sole nutrient intake for 16 weeks, including 10 weeks of competitive racing. Blood samples were collected at weeks 0, 3, 8 and 16, and veterinary health checks were conducted at weeks 0, 8 and 16. Haematology results for all dogs, irrespective of diet, were within normal range throughout the study and the consulting veterinarian assessed all dogs to be in excellent physical condition. No dogs in the present study developed anaemia. On the contrary, erythrocyte counts and Hb values increased significantly over time (P,0·01) in both groups of dogs. The present study is the first to demonstrate that a carefully balanced meat-free diet can maintain normal haematological values in exercising dogs.

2. There appeared to be a distinct advantage to being a vegan or vegetarian for a larger percentage of one's life—all of the percentages in Figure 1 are greater than for the entire surveyed population.

There also appeared to be a slight health advantage for veganism compared to vegetarianism although this was not tested for statistical significance: 82% of dogs who had been vegan for five years or more were considered to be in good to excellent health, while only 77% of dogs who had been vegetarian for five years or more were considered to be in good to excellent health.

In 1994 People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) conducted a systematic survey of the health of 300 vegetarian dogs sourced from 33 US states and Canada via PETA’s newsletter (PETA 1994). Dogs ranged in age from young puppies to 19 years old. 88.7% (266/300) were spayed or castrated, and, of those who were not, 22 were male and 12 female. 52.7% (158/300) were female and 47.3% (142/300) male. 55.7% (167/300) were mixed breeds and 44.3% (133/300) were purebred, with a wide range of breeds represented, although a larger number of terriers (22), retrievers (22), beagles (7), and dobermans (6) were present. 65.3% (196/300) were vegan (pure vegetarian—diets exclude eggs, milk and other animal products), with the remaining 34.7% (104/300) simply vegetarian (i.e., ovo-lacto-vegetarians).

3. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5035952/

makes reference to 4 scientific studies on vegan dogs…

“This article comprehensively reviews the evidence published to date from four studies that have examined the nutritional adequacy of vegetarian diets for cats and dogs. To obtain additional information, we surveyed 12 pet food companies detailed in the most recent study. We also examined the nutritional soundness of meat-based companion-animal diets, and reviewed the evidence concerning the health status of vegetarian, carnivorous and omnivorous companion animals. Both cats and dogs may thrive on vegetarian diets, but these must be nutritionally complete and reasonably balanced. Owners should also regularly monitor urinary acidity, and should correct urinary alkalinisation through appropriate dietary additives, if necessary.”

4. Some more WORLD VET ORGANISATIONS views links and quotes.

If I had found any making statements AGAINST VEGAN DIETS I would have included those links…they have had PLENTY TIME to have done so by now.

This  world top nutritional organisation https://www.canadianveterinarians.net/science-knowledge/cvj-

current-issue#.UT4qgFcZQwc  Department of Veterinary Clinical and Diagnostic Sciences, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, University of Calgary, 3330 Hospital

Drive NW, Calgary, Alberta T2N 4N1 (Schlesinger); Calgary Animal Referral and Emergency Centre, 7140–12th St SE, Calgary, Alberta T2H 2Y4 (Schlesinger, Joffe) did a report on RAW diets ! and concluded ? not recommended ! like the already provided by me vet top organisations that conclude overall AGAINST

raw/barf pet feeding the organisation states..."https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3003575/ "there is a lack

of large cohort studies to evaluate risk or benefit of raw meat diets fed to pets"

astonishing ! I only discovered this report 3rd June 2017

What do other major Health Professional Organisations to do with Pet Animals say officially ?

What do the experts say about feeding pets raw diets?  Just because wild animals eat raw meats does not imply that these foods are safe! A number of professional associations have condemned the practice of feeding raw food to dogs and cat: 

The American Veterinary Medical Association policy (AVMA) adopted a policy statement addressing the issue in 2012 opposing the feeding of raw foods. The AVMA is a not-for-profit association representing more than 89,000 veterinarians working in private and corporate practice,

government, industry, academia, and uniformed services. The AVMA acts as a collective voice for its membership and for the profession.

AVMA LeadershipAVMA Officers

President 2017-2018 — Michael Topper, DVM, PhD, DACVP President-Elect 2017-2018 — John de Jong, DVM Vice President 2016-2018 — Stacy Pritt, DVM, MS, MBA, CPIA, DACAW Treasurer 2017-2023 — Arnold Goldman, DVM, MPH Immediate Past President 2017-2018 — Thomas Meyer, DVM Board of Directors Chair 2017-2018 — Michael Whitehair, DVM Board of Directors Vice Chair 2017-2018 — Gary Brown, DVM Executive Vice President — Janet Donlin, DVM Assistant Executive Vice President — David E. Granstrom, DVM, PhD,

DACVM

The American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA) approved a policy in August 2012 that discourages feeding raw meat to pets. https://www.aaha.org/professional/resources/raw_protein_diet.aspx

"

Past proponents of raw food diets believed that this was the healthiest food choice for pets. It was also assumed that feeding such a diet would cause no harm to other animals or to humans. There have subsequently been multiple studies showing both these premises to be false. Based on overwhelming scientific evidence, AAHA does not advocate or endorse feeding pets any raw or dehydrated nonsterilized foods, including treats that are of animal origin.

Homemade raw food diets are unsafe because retail meats for human consumption can be contaminated with pathogens. Studies that have been done on both commercially available and homemade raw protein diets have found a high percentage (30–50 percent) of them contaminated with pathogenic organisms, and up to 30 percent of the dogs fed such diets may shed pathogenic organisms in their stool. Many of the pathogens found in raw protein diets can be transmitted to the human population by contact with the food itself, pet, or environmental surfaces. A disturbing number of these organisms have also been shown to be resistant to multiple antimicrobials.

Raw protein diets are now demonstrated to be a health risk for several groups, including:

The pets consuming the diet Other animals in contact with these pets or their feces Human family members The public

People at highest risk of serious disease from the enteric pathogens found in raw diets include those that are very young, old, or immune-compromised. These are the very groups that are the focus of most animal-assisted intervention (AAI) programs. It is especially important that therapy pets involved in AAI not be fed raw protein diets.

AAHA is committed to the human community, the veterinary medical profession, our AAHA hospitals, and the patients we serve in recommending the best known medical practices using evidence-based medicine. We value the relationships between our pets and their families, along with the positive impact that they have on the larger population, such as in AAI programs. Feeding a raw protein diet no longer concerns only each individual pet, but has become a larger community health issue; for this reason, AAHA can no longer support or advocate the feeding of raw protein diets to pets.

The American Association of Feline Practitioners (AAFP) and the National Association of State Public Health Veterinarians (NASPHV) have both endorsed this statement. 

Resources:

1. American Pet Product Association. 2003–2004 APPA National Pet Owners Survey. Greenwich, CT: APPA; 2004.2. American Pet Product Association. Guidelines for the Manufacturing of Natural Part Treats for Pets. http://www.americanpetproducts.org/law/lawlibrary_article.asp?topic=133. Billinghurst I. The BARF Diet (Raw Feeding for Dogs and Cats Using Evolutionary Principles). Bathurst, Australia: Ian Billinghurst; 2001.4. Cantor GH, Nelson S Jr, Vanek JA, et al. Salmonella shedding in racing sled dogs. J Vet Diagn Invest. 1997;9:447–448.5. Caraway CT, Scott AE, Roberts NC, et al. Salmonellosis in sentry dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1959;135:599–602.6. Carter ME, Quinn PJ. Salmonella infections in dogs and cats. In: Wray C, Wray A, eds. Salmonella in Domestic Animals. Wallingford, UK: CABI Publishing; 2000:231–244.7. Chengappa MM, Staats J, Oberst RD, et al. Prevalence of Salmonella in raw meat used in diets of racing greyhounds. J Vet Diagn Invest. 1993;5:372–377.8. Cherry B, Burns A, Johnson GS, et al. Salmonella Typhimurium outbreak

associated with veterinary clinic. Emerg Infect Dis. 2004;10:2249–2251.9. Clark C, Cunningham J, Ahmed R, et al. Characterization of Salmonella associated with pig ear dog treats in Canada. J Clin Microbiol. 2001;39:3962–3968.10. Finley RL. Salmonella in Commercially Available Pig Ear Treats and Raw Food Diets: Prevalence Survey and Canine Feeding Trial [MSc. thesis]. Guelph, Ontario, Canada: University of Guelph; 2004.11. Finley R, Reid-Smith R, Ribble C. The occurrence and antimicrobial susceptibility of salmonellae isolated from commercially available canine raw food diets in three Canadian cities. Zoonoses Public Health. 2008;55(8–10):462-469.12. Finley R, Reid-Smith R, Weese JS. Human health implications of salmonella-contaminated natural pet treats and raw pet food. Clin Infect Dis. 2006;42:686–691.13. Finley R, Ribble C, Aramini J, et al. The risk of salmonellae shedding by dogs fed salmonella-contaminated commercial raw food diets. Can Vet J. 2007;48:69–75.14. Food and Drug Administration. Guidance for Industry: Manufacture and Labeling of Raw Meat Foods for Companion and Captive Noncompanion Carnivores and Omnivores. http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AnimalVeterinary/GuidanceComplianceEnforcement/GuidanceforIndustry/UCM052662.pdf. Revised November 9, 2004.15. Freeman LM, Michel KE. Evaluation of raw food diets for dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001;218:705–709.16. Galton MM. Humans and pets as sources of salmonellosis. J Am Chem Soc. 1969;46:230–232.17. Galton MM, Harless M, Hardy AV. Salmonella isolation from dehydrated dog meats. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1955;127:57–58.18. Greene CE. Enteric bacterial infections—salmonellosis. In: Infectious Diseases of the Dog and Cat. 2nd ed. CE Greene, ed. Philadelphia, PA: WB Saunders; 1998:235–240.19. Joffe DJ, Schlesinger DP. Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets. Can Vet J. 2002;43:441–442.20. Kahrs RF, Holmes DN, Poppensiek GD. Diseases transmitted from pets to man: an evolving concern for veterinarians. Cornell Vet. 1978;68:442–459.21. Kozak M, Horosova K, Lasanda V, et al. Do dogs and cats present a risk of transmission of salmonellosis to humans? Bratise Lek Listy. 2003;104:323–328.22. Laboratory Centre for Disease Control. Human health risk from exposure to natural dog treats—preliminary report. Can Commun Dis Rep. 2000;26:41–42.23. Lefebvre SL, Reid-Smith R, Boerlin P, et al. Evaluation of the risks of shedding Salmonellae and other potential pathogens by therapy dogs fed raw diets in Ontario and Alberta. Zoonoses Public Health. 2008;55:470–480.24. LeJeune JT, Hancock, D.D. Public health concerns associated with feeding raw meats diets to dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001;219:1222–1225.

25. Lenz J, Joffe D, Kauffman M, et al. Perceptions, practices, and consequences associated with foodborne pathogens and the feeding of raw meat to dogs. Can Vet J. 2009;50:637–643.26. Leonard EK, Pearl DL, Finley RL, et al. Evaluation of pet-related management factors and the risk of Salmonella spp. carriage in pet dogs from volunteer households in Ontario (2005–2006). Zoonoses Public Health. 2011 Mar;58(2):140-149.27. Marks SL, Kather EJ. Bacterial-associated diarrhea in the dog: a critical appraisal. Vet Clin North Am Small Anim Pract. 2003;33:1029–1060.28. Mead PS, Slutsker L, Dietz V, et al. Food-related illness and death in the United States. Emerg Infect Dis. 1999;5:607–625.29. Morse EV, Duncan MA. Canine salmonellosis: prevalence, epizootiology, signs, and public health significance. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1975;167:817–820.30. Morse EV, Duncan MA, Estep DA, et al. Canine salmonellosis: a review and report of dog to child transmission of salmonella enteritidis. Am J Public Health. 1976;66:82–84.31. Murphy CP. Occurrence of Antimicrobial Resistance in Selected Bacteria in Healthy Dogs and Cats Presented to Private Veterinary Clinics in Southern Ontario [MSc. thesis]. Guelph, Ontario, Canada: University of Guelph; 2004.32. Pitout JDD, Reisbig MD, Mulvey M, et al. Association between handling of pet treats and infection with Salmonella enterica serotype Newport expressing the AmpC b-lactamase, CMY-2. J Clin Microbiol. 2003;41:4578–4582.33. Public Health Agency of Canada. Advisory: Salmonella infection in humans linked to natural pet treats, raw food diets for pets. July 2005. http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/media/advisories_avis/salmonella_e.html.34. Sanchez S, Hofacre CL, Lee MD, et al. Animal sources of salmonellosis in humans. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2002;221:492–497.35. Sato Y, Mori T, Koyama T, et al. Salmonella Virchow infection in an infant transmitted by household dogs. J Vet Med Sci. 2000;62:767–769.36. Schlesinger DP, Joffe DJ. Raw food diets in companion animals: A critical review. Can Vet J. 2011;52:50–54.37. Schlultze K. The Ultimate Diet—Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats. Carlsbad, CA: Hay House; 1999.38. Sega, M. K9 Kitchen: Your Dog’s Diet. New Castle, DE: Doggie Diner, Inc.; 2002.39. Stehr-Green JK, Schantz PM. The impact of zoonotic diseases transmitted by pets on human health and the economy. Vet Clin North Am Small Anim Pract. 1987;17:1–15.40. Sokolow SH, Rand C, Marks SL, et al. Epidemiologic evaluation of diarrhea in dogs in an animal shelter. Am J Vet Res. 2005;66:1018–1024.41. Stiver SL, Frazier KS, Mauel MJ, et al. Septicemic salmonellosis in two cats fed a raw-meat diet. J Am Anim Hosp Assoc. 2003;39:538–542.42. Stone GG, Chengappa MM, Oberst RD, et al. Application of polymerase chain reaction for the correlation of Salmonella serovars recovered from greyhound feces

with their diet. J Vet Diagn Invest. 1993;5:378–385.43. Strohmeyer RA, Hyatt DR, Morley PS, et al. Microbiological risk of feeding raw meat diets to canines [abstract 75]. In: Program and Abstracts of the 2004 Conference of Research Workers in Animal Diseases (Chicago). Ames, IA: Blackwell Publishing; 2004.44. Taylor MB, Geiger DA, Saker KE, et al. Diffuse osteopenia and myelopathy in a puppy fed a diet composed of an organic premix and raw ground beef. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2009;234(8)1041–1049.45. Voetsch AC, Van Gilder TJ, Angulo FJ, et al. FoodNet estimate of the burden of illness caused by nontyphoidal Salmonella infections in the United States. Clin Infect Dis. 2004;38(suppl 3):S127–S134.46. Voisard M, Voisard Y. Becoming the Chef Your Dog Thinks You Are: A Nourishing Guide to Feeding Your Dog and Your Soul. New York, NY: Stray Dog Press; 2001.47. Wall PG, Davis S, Threlfall EJ, et al. Chronic carriage of multidrug resistant Salmonella Typhimurium in a cat. J Small Anim Pract. 1995;36:279–281.48. Weese SJ, Rousseau J, Arroyo L. Bacteriological evaluation of commercial canine and feline raw diets. Can Vet J. 2005;46:513–516.49. White DG, Datta A, McDermott P, et al. Antimicrobial susceptibility and genetic relatedness of Salmonella serovars isolated from animal-derived dog treats in the USA. J Antimicrob Chemother. 2003;52:860–863.50. Wright JG, Tengelsen LA, Smith KE, et al. Multidrug-resistant Salmonella Typhimurium in four animal facilities. Emerg Infect Dis. 2005;11:1235–1241.

Adopted by the American Animal Hospital Association Board of Directors, October 2011."

The Companion Animal Parasite Council (CAPC) states, “Pets should be fed cooked or prepared food (not raw diets)”

CAPC, an independent council established to create guidelines for the optimal control of internal and external parasites that threaten the health of pets and people, brings together broad expertise in parasitology, internal medicine, public health, veterinary law, private practice and association leadership. Initially convened in 2002, CAPC was formed with the express purpose of changing the way veterinary professionals and pet owners approach parasite management, via best practices that better protect pets from parasitic infections while reducing the risk of zoonotic parasite transmission.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) does not recommend feeding raw foods to a pet because of the risk of food-borne infection to the pet and to household members.

LAST BUT NOT LEAST ! AAFCO DETAILS... All countries have food regulatory organisations that approve or dismiss petfoods. Therefore...once a PETFOOD is on sale in any country that means it has passed those

petfood standards. What kind of DETAILS are used ? the best publically available DETAILS of what

NUTRIENTS need to be in PETFOODS are provided by AAFCO. the USA petfood governing body.

https://www.aafco.org/Portals/0/SiteContent/Regulatory/Committees/Model-Bills- and-Regulations/Reports/MBRC_minutes_Attachment_A.pdf

Now anyone...just going out and buying slabs of animal flesh and bones and shoving that in their pet cat or dog foods...CANNOT know what percentage protein and minerals and vitamins etc that slab of flesh has in it ! cooking DESTROYS TAURINE and FREEZING DESTROYS TAURINE…raw flesh has not got enough taurine in it nowadays to be sufficient without adding SUPPLEMENTARY TAURINE that all the cat raw feeding companies if sensible recommend ! and the news to most is that these Taurine supplements are VEGAN ! why  ? bcause it is too expensive to obtain Taurine from flesh for supplements for petfoods. 50 percent of the world Taurine produced synthetically is in fact produced for PETFOODS.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurine “In 1993, about 5,000–6,000 tons of taurine were produced for commercial purposes: 50% for pet food and 50% in pharmaceutical applications”) And I end on a quote of a major CAT RAW FEEDING company…”The Association of American Feed Control Officials, or AAFCO, recommends the minimum allowance of taurine for wet food to be 0.2% on a dry matter basis. The chance is that this amount might be covered by the natural taurine in meat alone, but due to a significant amount of variability of taurine concentrations in meat, high taurine solubility in water, danger of delay in exhibiting clinical signs of taurine deficiency and the fact that taurine supplementation is relatively safe with no reports of any issues associated with taurine overdose, it might be beneficial to always have a small amount of taurine excess in your cat's diet” FEEDING CATS VEGAN TAURINE IS THE NORM for aiming at healthy cats !

………………………………

COPY OF POST PASTED INTO VEGAN UK 8th June 2018 just before 20.00 hours in their FILES section.

Noelle Obcarskas uploaded a file in the group: Vegan UK.Just now · 

Vegan Petfood Information for UK pet owners. Suppliers in the UK and worldwide for Dogs, Cats, Ferrets.Petfoods. Cat Dog Ferret Petfood issues and supplies of Vegan Petfood.The average non vegan human over a lifetime consumes about 22 thousand animals for food. Dogs and cats have much shorter lives…but still if fed non vegan can cause the deaths of thousands of animals each, most of which are decisions that humans make for them nothing to do with any choice of theirs since they have no choices about where they live go out etc.How 1 pet fed vegan can save the lives of 3000 animals over it’s lifetime if not fed RAW

or 900 animals if not fed standard non vegan but 80 percent veggies and 20 percent animal flesh kibble or wetfood.COMMON MYTHS DEBUNKED explained about Vegan Petfoods: see below in file doc.Here are some hard facts. And please someone explain if possible …why a so called VEGAN would believe in defiance of the world vet organisations advice…that feeding as some boast they do…RAW to their dogs and cats is ethically justifiable ? or even nutritionally justifiable ? well that last question should be addressed not to me I suggest but the world vet organisations who make such strong criticisms of all raw petfood diets !In short…3000 animals over the lifetime of 1 PET would be killed to feed RAW. USING the provided link on quantities etc to feed an average pet by the raw petfood promoters websites clearly publically visible.900 animals bred and killed to feed a pet if fed the 80 percent veggies and 20 percent flesh or crap ground bones content kibble and wet non vegan standard foods.Can any “vegan” explain how this can be justified morally ? It is HUMANS who make the decisions…about everything about the life of a PET…where they live…how they live…what they eat…so ? explain how one can call oneself VEGAN if one is choosing to take the lives of so many animals for just 1 PET animal that has been proven to have no need to live off other animals’ lives ?I am an accountant. Numbers matter to me. I see no logic in killing an animal to feed another animal when I know that is not necessary…let alone thousands of animals over 1 pet’s lifetime.Some more WORLD VET ORGANISATIONS views links and quotes provided in file attached doc.If I had found any making statements AGAINST VEGAN DIETS I would have included those links…they have had PLENTY TIME to have done so by now.And not all links to informations found but many here listed also…http://vegan-information.com/Vegan_Dogs_and_Cats.htmlThere are Facebook groups also for more information and experiences of Vegan Cat, Vegan dog and Vegan Ferret owners. Easy to find in Facebook using those key words.

I do not wish for discussion on why the world top vet organisations ALL strongly criticise Raw Petfoods based on animal flesh here. That discussion i suggest anyone interested take up with those organisations whose links I provide here...the UK Vet Organisation ruling body is included of course in all those world vet organisations who DISAPPROVE of raw feeding of pets and have NOTHING adverse to say about VEGAN PETFOODS approved by UK regulatory food agencies.

This is for INFORMATION purposes as it is clear many people are unaware of the position of the UK Vet and Food agencies governing petfoods position on vegan petfoods or raw flesh animal petfoods.

ps I turned off commenting on this post. It is to share information for people to learn as stated. I have no wish to receive the usual animal abuser incorrect accusations one sometimes gets from ignorant of the legal term animal abuse under UK Laws or need to explain those here. That is not my job. Thank you.Petfoods for vegans dogs cats ferrets etc.docx · version 1

…………………………….. In the minds of people...VEGANS INCLUDED often...PETS and WILDLIFE labelled animals lives are WORTH MORE than FARM ANIMALS. Proven time and time again by the fact

PETS are supported by the killing of masses of other animals to feed them. I saw...several WILDLIFE cooing posts in that group also ...someone petting a WILD SWAN...got 300 odd LIKES and loves...a post on a FARM ANIMAL TURKEY got ? some 30 reactions only in comparison. QED.One of the problems of "cute" pet pictures ...dogs...cats...or Esther the Wonder Pig the Wonder Pig is that peope react by...oooh i want one too ! good for rescues often but in reality as Esther and my post ref my 4 rescued by buying them Christmas, Thanksgiving Turkeyssay...it is impractical to keep a farm breed animal often...harder work than a "payback" practical to walk on leads and have in house housetrained dog or cat. What we want is...for people to STOP buying their dead bodies...for themselves or their pet dogs and cats....by respecting the right to life of those animals and the right to not be brought into existance by humans.

………………………….

Added comments AFTER posting this doc and having had it deleted in some Vegan UK Facebook groups. NOT ALL deleted it I add from the FILES section I thought it useful to simply have for information to Vegans and Non Vegans alike.

Maybe ONE DAY…this DOC FILE…which I suggest should be CLOSED for any commenting as soon as posted…WILL be provided as INFORMATION for each person to simply read…research further…ask questions of the authors etc …and MAKE THEIR OWN MINDS UP as to what they wish to believe and practise.

i exited Vegan Uk yesterday...after admin deleted 2 times simply a file with refs on vegan pets nutrition links...i also got several hate private messages on about me being an animal abuser for not killing this turkey to feed my vegan dogs and cats. that is the choice of course...that many make willingly and tell others to make...kill the turkeys...the 300 000 rabbits per year and other animals the uk puts in petfoods bred specifically for that....and keep 1 pet alive on hundreds of deaths...and call yourself a VEGAN as some do who do that and actually feed RAW TURKEYS to their pet dog or cat. 3000 chicken size animals deaths over an average dog life of 15 years are caused by a RAW petfood diet fyi. 900 is fed the standard 80 percent veggies anyway and 20 percent low grade crap not fit for humans animal content kibbles etc.

The definition of being Vegan last i read was...to cause the LEAST harm. so ? it is a NUMBERS issue. HOW MANY DEATHS ? 1 "PET" or 3000 Chickens ? simple enough to understand. And when...someone simply posts links file for INFORMATION needs of those not realising...no world vet organisation approves but strongly disapproves of RAW feeding of pet dogs and cats and no world vet organisation has made any criticism of Vegan diets for dogs and cats pets ...and that file is deleted...one has to realise...Vegan named groups are full of non vegans and admins too are not interested in vegan information.

Maybe ONE DAY…this DOC FILE…which I suggest should be CLOSED for any commenting as soon as posted…WILL be provided as INFORMATION for each person to simply read…research further…ask questions of the authors etc …and MAKE THEIR OWN MINDS UP as to what they wish to believe and practise.

THIS post got 30 likes or so compared to a Wild Swan petting post o 300 Likes. Says it all hey.

Vegan Vegan UK Facebook group turkey post.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/vegangroupuk/permalink/675419942800882/

Noelle Obcarskas is in Chester, Cheshire.

Why nobody loves me. A Farm Animal's thoughts.

1, I am ugly.2. I am not easily house trained.3. I am not easy to have as a handbag accessory on a lead to march alongside a human where they want to go.4. I am defenseless and easy to kill and feed to humans and other unlike me loved pet cats and dogs i am just one of many, not worth their lives to humans.5. I am not "sexy" like big elephants and tigers and lions even hedgehogs and foxes to coo over by humans as a wildlife species.

I am...a Frankenstein unnatural breed of animal...designed by humans...unable to fly as my long ago remote ancesters could...I feel pain in my legs as my body is designed to be too heavy for them to support so that my body has more "flesh" on it to use for humans and their loved pets food.

I have arthritus age 6 months old when i am usually killed or for life if I ever live longer than 6 months. Chickens are killed age 6 weeks old adult size due to human designed breeds and fed fattening fast foods humans have created unnaturally for us with antibiotics etc in them and suffer the same problems too.

I live with a kitten who is 8 months old ! and 2 dogs ages 8 and 7 years old ! they have lived THAT LONG on their vegan diets..how lucky they are...and how lucky I am to have lived also 8 months old ! I think looking at the kitten...you got to live to 8 months old...on a vegan diet...and ME TOO ! aren't we lucky.

It is normal for me to be killed at age 6 months old apparently. Well kitten of 8 months old...you be thankful too that we both have lived so long is all I can say.

Christmas. The ugly turkey. The designed by humans unnatural farm animal. Lying down for a rest after hobbling painfuly on her painful legs under too heavy body.

Let us all be thankful for every day every month that we have lived so far. It is more than we deserved of course.

My life is equal in value to the life of my companion kitten and dogs to the human who feeds us.

I do not get any choice over what i eat of course. The human feeds me. That is why i have lived so long. That is what humans do. They decide how we live and what we eat and when we die.

Christmas. The ugly turkey. The designed by humans unnatural farm animal. I just wish...i had a better label than "Farm Animal" meaning fodder like "pet" or "wildlife" . Then people might love or respect me equally.

speciesism. like racism. i understand we all would instinctively avoid driving over a dog or any animal on the road...that if an animal is in our faces we would not want to harm or kill her or him. however it is so easy to dismiss ugly farm animals as "meant" to be bred and killed for humans or some pet dog or cat in huge numbers.

so often...i have been called an "animal abuser" for feeding my dogs and cat vegan. and those very same people therefore logically think nothing of me killing my turkeys to feed the cat or dog when they are not sick and eating vet approved vegan food ? the other lashout is get a rabbit do not own a cat or dog ...but those too are bred and killed for petfoods...why is it that people think it is ok if we personally do not do the killing or do not see these animals being killed ? walk on the other side of the road...is what i think of those attitudes of get a rabbit not a cat or dog that live fine vegan. i will NOT walk on the other side of the road or pass the responsibility of death to others....

i TAKE that responsibility...i make the choice and will kill..and decide...based on numbers...who lives and who dies is my ultimate response. WHO DO I LOVE MOST AND

WHY ? could be another criteria for me deciding which of my "pets" i would kill and which I would keep alive...

and...THERE is the truth of the matter...a CAT or a DOG is easier to love and more PRACTICAL than a turkey or farm animal. I can walk down the road and people coo and love to make nice comments about my dogs and cat...these turkeys ? they at best LAUGH, at worst say...yum yum makes me think of FOOD. yes i have had those comments. I replied ? EAT YOUR DOG OR CAT the legs will have more meat on than turkey legs flesh.

Then if as happened on youtube the person gets annoyed saying i am nuts it is NORMAL to eat turkeys i end up having to delete the comments and ban them.

It is NOT NORMAL or NATURAL for HUMANS to breed or provide food to ANY other animal

To BREED animals to feed another animal is morally WRONG and to pay someone ELSE to do the killing is morally wrong also. Those are the morals I apply to myself. Other people ? can do as they please. They are not my business. I judge only myself not others and suggest others try to do the same. YOU take responsibility and do not lecture others about who should live and die is my view

I asked my father...Father Change my Name...the one I am using now is covered up with fear and filth and cowardice and shame...(change my name / label from FARM ANIMAL to "PET" or "WILDLIFE" ) https://youtu.be/TQIRVePuCB8

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N.B. Nota Bene...The great news was the INPUT and help from another Vegan group called Vegan Friendly Lithuania...they reminded me to add the AAFCO details link and the TAURINE explanation links. I of COURSE posted my MADE IN LITHUANIA biggest Belgian Shepherd in the WORLD vegan dog SAKALAS meaning FALCON in Lithuania where he was born lol !  what a STAR ! a disgrace to the Belgian Shepherd breed world as 6cm TALLER than the max Breed Standard he is 76cm to the shoulder lol...on a VEGAN DIET ! the Ugly Duckling turned not into a Beautiful Swan but a MONSTER VEGAN lol He is a CESTRIAN now too...that means "Resident of Chester" in Cheshire England near Wales, Gymru/ Cymru pronouned Kimroo. NON NATIVE GONE NATIVE lol. He is entitled...to have the name CESTRIAN as he lives here. i am a bit sad...homesick...contact and thoughts with and of Lietuva, Lithuania...made me sad to realise i am not there to hear the royal racket din of the frogs in my lakes...the birdsong all night as the sun hardly sets in summers there...and my land. our land.