stephen hawking's resolution of firewall paradox was offered by abhas mitra on aug 15, 2013 in ny...

8/13/2019 Stephen Hawking's Resolution of Firewall Paradox Was Offered By Abhas Mitra On Aug 15, 2013 in NY Times

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On August 12, 2013, NY Times Online Edition Published The FollowingCommenty:

A Black Hole Mystery Wrapped in aFirewall ParadoxByDENNIS OVERBYE

Published: August 12, 2013372 Comments

And The Following Comment By Abhas Mitra Pointed Out That The Only Real Resolution of the ``Firewall

Paradox Was That There Were No Exact Black Holes or Event Horizons. And on January 22, 2014, Stephen

Hawking Arrived At the Same Conclusion From Tentative Arguments. In Contrast the Results By Mitra Are

Definite & Based On Exact Calculations Published in Series of Peer Reviewed Papers Over 13 Years (2000-

2013)

Abhas Mitra

Mumbai, India August 15, 2013

Einsteins intuition was CORRECT contrary to what is believed. This is so because it has been shown that

though the BH solutions are exact they involve integration constants whose values are zero. Precisely, it

has been shown that the Schwarzschild BHs correspond to unique gravitational mass M=0 (Mitra, J Mat

Phys, 50, I 042502 2009). Similarly Kerr BHs too correspond to M=0 and rotation parameter a=0 (Mitra

astro-ph/0409049, 0407501). This means that the static BH solutions correspond to the asymptotic final

states of physical gravitational collapse where entire mass-energy and angular momentum are radiated

away. Thus so-called BH Candidates must be Quasi- BHs rather than true BHs. Further it has been shown

that the natural form of the quasi-BHs are quasi-static hot balls of plasma /fire (Eternally Collapsing

Objects) where outward radiation pressure balances the inward pull of gravity: i.e., ECOs radiate at their

GR Eddington Luminosity. (Mitra , MNRASL ,404, L50, 2010; MNRAS 367, L66, 2006; 369, 492, 2006).

Since there is no true BH, there is no ``Information Paradox, no need to inconsistently picture the

VACUUM Event Horizon as a FIREBALL or Brick Wall or Membrane. But ECO is being ball of

Fire/Plasma, ECO surface is indeed a FIREWALL. So BH Information paradox is already solved without

resorting to self-contradictory pictures:http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v73/p615/p615.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-

paradox.html?pagewanted=all#commentsContainer

This time, they say, Einstein might really be wrong.

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Jim Wilson/The New York Times

Raphael Bousso.

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Jim Wilson/The New York Times

Leonard Susskind.

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A high-octane debate has broken out among the worlds physicists about what would

happen if you jumped into a black hole, a fearsome gravitational monster that can swallow

matter, energy and even light. You would die, of course, but how? Crushed smaller than a

dust mote by monstrous gravity, as astronomers and science fiction writers have been

telling us for decades? Or flash-fried by a firewall of energy, as an alarming new calculationseems to indicate?

This dire-sounding debate has spawned a profusion of papers, blog posts and workshops

over the last year. At stake is not Einsteins reputation, which is after all secure, or even the

efficacy of our iPhones, but perhaps the basis of his general theory of relativity, the theory of

gravity, on which our understanding of the universe is based. Or some other fundamental

long-established principle of nature might have to be abandoned, but physicists dont agree

on which one, and they have been flip-flopping and changing positions almost weekly, with

no resolution in sight.

Iwas a yo-yo on this, said one of the more prolific authors in the field,Leonard

Susskindof Stanford. He paused and added, I havent changed my mind in a few months

now.
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Raphael Bousso,a theorist at the University of California, Berkeley, said, Ive never been so

surprised. I dont know what to expect.

You might wonder who cares, especially if encountering a black hole is not on your calendar.

But some of the basic tenets of modern science and of Einsteins theory are at stake in thefirewall paradox, as it is known.

It points to something missing in our understanding of gravity, said Joseph Polchinski, of

the Kavli Institute for Theoretical Physics in Santa Barbara, Calif., one of thetheorists who

set off this confusion.

Down this rabbit hole are many of the jazzy magical mysteries of modern physics: Black

holes. The shortcuts through space and time called wormholes. Quantum entanglement,

also known as spooky action at a distance, in which particles separated by light-years can

still instantaneously appear to remain connected. The reward for going down this hole could

be a new understanding of why we think we live in a universe with space and time at all,

with suitably unpredictable consequences. After all, if Einstein hadnt been troubled a

century ago by logical inconsistencies in the Newtonian universe, we might not have GPS

systems, which rely on his theory of general relativity to keep time, in our pockets today.

Falling Bodies

Black holes are the most extreme predictions of Einsteins theory, which describes how

matter and energy warp the geometry of space and time the way a heavy sleeper causes a

mattress to sag. Too much matter and energy in one place could cause space to sag so far

that the matter inside it would disappear as if behind a magicians cloak, collapsing

endlessly to a point of infinite density known as a singularity. Einstein thought that idea was

ridiculous when it was pointed out to him at the time, in 1916, but today astronomers agree

that the universe is speckled with such dark monsters, including beasts lurking in the hearts

of most galaxies that are millions and billions of time more massive than the Sun. Many of

them resulted from the collapse of dead stars.

General relativity is based on what Einstein later called his happiest thought, that a freely

falling person would not feel his weight. It is known simply as the equivalence principle; it

says that empty space looks the same everywhere and to everyone.

One consequence of this principle is that an astronaut would not feel anything special

happening when he fell through the point of no return, known as the event horizon, into a

black hole. Like a bungee jumper, he would feel weightless then and all the way until he hit
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the bottom, which could take seconds or years depending on how big the hole was, and he

would be stretched like a noodle by tidal forces and then crushed into a speck. At the event

horizon there would be no drama, in the lexicon at least in the physical sense, as

opposed to the intellectual trauma of knowing you were not ever going home. Things or

people went in, they got crushed to infinite density and disappeared. That was thetraditional view of black holes.

Things got more interesting, however, in 1974 whenStephen Hawking,the British

cosmologist, stunned the world by showing that when the paradoxical quantum laws that

describe subatomic behavior were taken into account, black holes would leak particles and

radiation, and in fact eventually explode, although for a hole the mass of a star it would take

longer than the age of the universe.

This was a breakthrough in combining general relativity, the gravity that curves the cosmos,with quantum theory, which describes the microscopic quirkiness inside it, but there was a

big hitch. Dr. Hawking concluded that the radiation coming from a black hole would be

completely random, conveying no information about what had fallen into it. When the black

hole finally exploded, all that information would be erased from the universe forever. God

not only plays dice with the universe, Dr. Hawking said in 1976 in a riposte to Einsteins

famous doubts about the randomness of quantum theory, he sometimes throws them

where they cant be seen.

Particle physicists cried foul, saying that this violated a basic tenet of modern science and ofquantum theory, that information is always preserved. From the material in the smoke and

flames of a burning book, for example, one could figure out whether it was the Bible or the

Kama Sutra; the same should be true of the fizz and pop of black holes, these physicists

argued. A 30-year controversy ensued.

It was front-page news in 2004 when Dr. Hawking finallysaid that he had been wrong,and

paid off a bet.

The Firewall Paradox

Now, however, some physicists say that Dr. Hawking might have conceded too soon. He

had good reason, said Dr. Polchinski, but he gave up for the wrong reason. Nobody, he

explained, had yet figured out exactly how information does get out of a black hole.

That was the task that four researchers based in Santa Barbara Ahmed Almheiri, Donald

Marolf, and James Sully, all from the University of California, Santa Barbara, and Dr.
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Polchinski of the Kavli Institute set themselves a year ago. The team (called AMPS, after

their initials) found, to their surprise, that following the known laws of physics would lead

to a contradiction, the firewall paradox.

Their calculations showed that having information flowing out of a black hole wasincompatible with having an otherwise smooth Einsteinian space-time at its boundary, the

event horizon. In its place would be a discontinuity in the vacuum that would manifest itself

as energetic particles a firewall lurking just inside the black hole.

Being incinerated asyou entered a black hole would certainly contradict Einsteins dictum

of no drama. If this were true, you would in fact die long before the bungee-jumping ride

ever got anywhere close to the bottom. The existence of a firewall would mean that the

horizon, which according to general relativity is just empty space, is a special place, pulling

the rug out from under Einsteins principle, his theory of gravity, and modern cosmology,which is based on general relativity. This presented the scientists with what Dr. Bousso calls

the menu from hell. If the firewall argument was right, one of three ideas that lie at the

heart and soul of modern physics, had to be wrong. Either information can be lost after all;

Einsteins principle of equivalence is wrong; or quantum field theory, which describes how

elementary particles and forces interact, is wrong and needs fixing. Abandoning any one of

these would be revolutionary or appalling or both.

Dr. Polchinski was very surprised by the result. It seemed like such a simple argument that

it must have been considered and resolved earlier, he said. After trying to kill it by talkingto colleagues in Santa Barbara, he e-mailed Dr. Susskind of Stanford, an old hand at black

holes and information, expecting that Dr. Susskind would point out the error.

But after a week or two of disbelief, Dr. Polchinski said, he was as confused as we were.

Dr. Susskind said: The arguments are very clear. Nobody knew what to make of them.

Quantum Vows

The firewall argument hinges on one of the weirder aspects of quantum physics, the actioncalled entanglement. As Einstein, Boris Podolsky and Nathan Rosenpointed out in 1935,

quantum theory predicts that a pair of particles can be connected in such a way that

measuring a property of one its direction of spin, say will immediately affect the results

of measuring the other one, even if it is light-years away.
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Einstein used this spooky action at a distance to suggest the absurdity of quantum

mechanics, but such experiments are now done in labs every day. You cant use it to send a

message faster than light, because the correlation shows up only when the two

experimenters get together and compare their respective results. But it plays a crucial role in

quantum computing and cryptography and, it turns out, in explaining how informationencoded in the Hawking radiation gets out of a black hole.

Consider two particles (lets call them Bob and Alice) that have been radiated by a black

hole. Bob left it eons ago, as it began leaking radiation; quantum entanglement theory

dictates that in order for the black hole to keep track of what information it has been

transmitting, Bob out there has to be entangled with Alice, who just left.

But that scenario competes with another kind of entanglement, between particles on either

side of the event horizon, the black holes boundary. If space is indeed smooth, as Einsteinpostulated, and if quantum field theory is correct, Alice must be entangled with another

particle, Ted, who is just inside the black hole.

But quantum theory forbids promiscuous entanglements. In the language of quantum

information, Alice can marry either Bob or Ted, but not both, even if the second marriage

happens inside the black hole where most of us cant see it.

Alice should have a consistent explanation of the universe, Dr. Polchinski explained, just as

we ourselves must, even though we are inside the cosmic horizon.

And so smoke pours from the AMPS groups computers and has continued to pour from the

particle accelerators of the mind, fueled by coffee and blackboard chalk this last year.

Firewall or not? Does information live or die? Is Einstein at last wrong? Experiments would

not help, even if we had a black hole in a laboratory, because the putative firewall, if it exists,

would be just inside where it cant be seen safely.

At a firewall workshop this winter, John Preskill, a Caltech theorist who won a bet with Dr.

Hawking on the randomness of information from a black hole, declared that physicists were

back where they had been 40 years ago.

The Menu From Hell

Dr. Bousso said his first response to the AMPS paper was, Come on, you gotta be kidding

me. He added, Everybody goes through their stages of grief.


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About 40 papers have been devoted to firewalls in the last year, and more are on the way.

Daniel Harlow of Princeton and Patrick Hayden of McGill University suggested that the

issue might be moot; the computation necessary to verify that Alice and Bob are entangled

could take longer than the age of the universe and the black hole would evaporate in the

meantime, making it impossible ever to go inside and experience the contradiction.

Failing that, which of the items on Dr. Boussos menu from hell might have to go depends

on who is speaking.

In some ways, it would be easiest to give up quantum field theory, which describes what

empty space should look like, in the case of someone who is being accelerated, perhaps by

gravity pulling him down a black hole. After all, quantum theory, with virtual particles

flitting in and out of existence and spooky entanglements is already strange. On the other

hand, asEd Wittenof the Institute for Advanced Study, who has so far watched the firewalldebate from a distance, said, Quantum field theory is how the world works. It had a major

triumph just a year ago, when theHiggs boson,a subatomic particle responsible for the

mass of other subatomic particles, was discovered after a 40-year search, at theLarge

Hadron Colliderat CERN.

Meanwhile, physicists have more reason than ever to think that information cannot be lost.

A celebrated 1997 paper by Juan M. Maldacena of the Institute for Advanced Study

describes nature as a kind of hologram, in which the information about what happens inside

a volume of three-dimensional space, for example, is encoded in quantum equations on itstwo-dimensional boundary, the way a 3-D image is encoded on the face of your bank card.

Mark Van Raamsdonk, a young theorist at the University of British Columbia, likes to use a

spookier analogy to describe this, namely the chip that controls a Matrix-like video game.

(Feel free to insert your own woo-woo music here.)

The discovery that the information needed to describe what happens in some volume is

proportional to the area enclosing that volume is the strangest and most far-reaching

consequence ofDr. Hawkings discovery that black holes explode,and is still wreathed in

mystery.

Dr. Maldacenas universe is often portrayed like a can of soup, in which galaxies, black

holes, gravity, stars and so forth, including us, are the soup inside, while the information to

describe them resides, like a label, on the outside. Think of it as gravity in a can. The
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equations that represent the label are deterministic and there is no room in them for

information to be lost, implying that information in the universe inside is also preserved.

Which leaves the firewall as the only way to stop the illegal marriage of Alice and Ted, Dr.

Polchinski said an odious solution because it contravenes the basic principle of generalrelativity.

He pointed out, however, that in a sense physicists had already thrown Einstein under the

bus. In Dr. Maldacenas holographic universe, considered to be the last word on quantum

gravity, the dimensions of space-time do not seem to matter. Weve known for years that

space-time is not fundamental, Dr. Polchinski said. General relativity isnot fundamental.

He went on, space-time is emergent. Gravity is emergent. Maybe sometimes it doesnt

always emerge.

Einsteins Revenge

But if space and time and gravity are not fundamental, what is?

Recently a new way of solving the firewall conundrum and of answering that haunting

question has attracted a lot of attention, although no consensus. Dr. Maldacena and Dr.

Susskind have proposed that Einstein could come to his own rescue via one more far-out

notion in modern physics: wormholes.

In 1935 Einstein and Rosen found that, mathematically anyway, black holes could come in

pairs connected by shortcuts through space then known as Einstein-Rosen bridges, now

known as wormholes. A wormhole would not be traversable by any means we now know

about, ruling out time travel and other violations of relativity, despite the dreams of science

fiction writers and interstellar pioneers.

In 2010, Dr. Van Raamsdonk of British Columbia suggested that such wormholes were

thegeometric manifestations of quantum entanglement.After all, neither of these

phenomena, which seemed to transcend local space, could be used for sending direct

messages.Brian Swingleat M.I.T. hadmade a similar suggestiona year earlier.

In effect, what these theorists were saying was that without the phenomenon of

entanglement, space-time would have no structure at all. Or as Dr. Maldacena put it,

Spooky action at a distance creates space-time. If true, this insight would be a step toward

a longtime dream of theorists of explaining how space and time emerge from some more
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basic property of reality, in this case, bits of quantum information. The theoristJohn

Wheeler,of Princeton, who had coined the term black hole, called this concept it from

bit.

Taking this idea seriously, Dr. Maldacena and Dr. Susskind proposed that a similar kind ofwormhole arrangement existed between the black hole in the AMPS case and its Hawking

radiation. Instead of a tunnel snaking through hyperspace and opening at the maw of

another black hole, the wormhole would split into a zillion spaghetti-like strands ending on

each of the pieces of Hawking radiation. That would mean that Bob, the Hawking particle in

the cartoon version of the theory mentioned above, might be light years away from the event

horizon, but he would still be connected to the interior of the black hole, as if there were a

doorway in New Jersey that opened up into a basement in Manhattan.

Because of this wormhole connection, Dr. Maldacena explained, Ted and Bob are thesame. So the result is sort of like the happy ending of one of those screwball romantic

comedies that involve mistaken identity and the handsome vagabond turns out to be the

prince in disguise; Alice can marry Ted who is really Bob and the bonds of matrimony

extend smoothly across the edge of the black hole.

In that case, then, there is no firewall, no contradiction in the laws of physics. And Einstein

survives to fight another day.

If right, this is clearly a major insight into gravity and quantum mechanics, an enthusiastic

Dr. Susskind said. I think of it as a very dramatic thing, he said, noting that long after

Einsteins career was presumed to be over, at 56, he produced these ideas of entanglement

and wormholes having no idea they were connected.

The man keeps giving.

But Einstein is not safe yet.

At first whiff, Dr. Preskill wrotein a recent blog post,the Maldacena-Susskind conjecture

may smell fresh and sweet, but it will have to ripen on the shelf for a while. He added, Fornow, wormhole lovers can relish the possibilities.

Entangled Theories

Dr. Maldacena and Dr. Susskind admit that the wormhole hypothesis is still a work in

progress. Few of their colleagues are convinced yet that it has been formulated in sufficient
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/14/science/14wheeler.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/14/science/14wheeler.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/14/science/14wheeler.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/14/science/14wheeler.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0http://quantumfrontiers.com/2013/06/07/entanglement-wormholes/http://quantumfrontiers.com/2013/06/07/entanglement-wormholes/http://quantumfrontiers.com/2013/06/07/entanglement-wormholes/http://quantumfrontiers.com/2013/06/07/entanglement-wormholes/http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/14/science/14wheeler.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/14/science/14wheeler.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


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detail, let alone that it can solve the firewall paradox. All I can say, Dr. Susskind said in an

e-mail on the eve of a firewall workshop next week at the Kavli Institute where wormholes

and everything else will surely be scrutinized, is that no one has a completely solid case and

that certainly includes me. Time will tell.

Dr. Polchinski said, My current thinking is that all the arguments that we are having are

the kind of arguments that you make when you dont have a theory. We need a more

complete theory of gravity, he concluded.

Maybe space-time from entanglement is the right place to start, he wrote. I am not

sure.

Dr. Bousso, who has been e-mailing with Dr. Maldacena, is skeptical that the wormholes

will eliminate firewalls. My own view is that its time to move on, accept, and actually

understand firewalls, he said. Afterall, he added, theres no principle of nonviolence in the

universe, except for Einsteins equivalence principle, which says the black holes horizon is

not a special place. But maybe it is, after all.

Meanwhile, Dr. Bousso said, the present debate had raised his estimation, by another few

notches, of the stupendous magnitude of Dr. Hawkings original discovery of the

information paradox.

The firewall paradox, he said, tells us that the conceptual cost of getting information back

out of a black hole is even more revolutionary than most of us had believed.

A version of this article appeared in print on August 13, 2013, on page D1 of the New York edition with the headline: Einstein

and the Black Hole.

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NYT PICKSNewestComments Closed

1.

o baileyhmv2018

o Toledo, OH

This article is about the long going argument about black holes and dark matter. I think it is

amazing that matter can disappear in a matter of seconds. It doesn't just go somewhere, it

disappears and will never exist again.

This argument is obviously not going to end for many years to come and it would be amazing if

we ever did find out what would happen if you fell into a black hole.

Though many physicists would be applied to putting all their research together I think it would

help. If all physicists put their research together we might be one step closer to stopping this

argument.

o Aug. 15, 2013 at 8:42 p.m.

2.

o Abhas Mitra

o Mumbai, India

Einsteins intuition was CORRECT contrary to what is believed. This is so because it has been

shown that though the BH solutions are exact they involve integration constants whose values

are zero. Precisely, it has been shown that the Schwarzschild BHs correspond to unique

gravitational mass M=0 (Mitra, J Mat Phys, 50, I 042502 2009). Similarly Kerr BHs too

correspond to M=0 and rotation parameter a=0 (Mitra astro-ph/0409049, 0407501). This

means that the static BH solutions correspond to the asymptotic final states of physical

gravitational collapse where entire mass-energy and angular momentum are radiated away.

Thus so-called BH Candidates must be Quasi- BHs rather than true BHs. Further it has been

shown that the natural form of the quasi-BHs are quasi-static hot balls of plasma /fire

(Eternally Collapsing Objects) where outward radiation pressure balances the inward pull of

gravity: i.e., ECOs radiate at their GR Eddington Luminosity. (Mitra , MNRASL ,404, L50,

2010; MNRAS 367, L66, 2006; 369, 492, 2006). Since there is no true BH, there is no
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=214http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=214


13/23

``Information Paradox, no need to inconsistently picture the VACUUM Event Horizon as a

FIREBALL or Brick Wall or Membrane. But ECO is being ball of Fire/Plasma, ECO surface is

indeed a FIREWALL. So BH Information paradox is already solved without resorting to self-

contradictory pictures:http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v73/p615/p615.pdf

o Aug. 15, 2013 at 10:07 a.m.

O RECOMMENDED1

3.

o amit chirstain

o now in kathamandu

its true when any body lying in it ,but on some place he will not feel light and also gravity

because gravity here proptional to electromagnetic field and also photn behavior ,and some

place he will feel light and gravity in proptional to electromagenetic field.

so here the story has begun about black hole.photon behviour could change and if phton

behaviour will change light behviour could change ,because on earth paralelely lfie is going on

we see or we cant see ,in my point of view

thanks

"A"

o Aug. 15, 2013 at 10:06 a.m.

O RECOMMENDED1

4.

o Terry McDanel

o St Paul, MN

Reading of this debate and listening to from various sources, i am reminded of Kurt Gdel's

incompleteness theorems. He proved that in an axiomatic system there will be propositions, or

true statements, that cannot be proved. And, if my understanding is correct, there inevitably will

be apparent contradictions or unsolvable problems. The debate makes me wonder if we will not

find physics and its presumed self-consistent and complete description of the our universe to be

similar. If this is true, at the very edges of the description, that is at the greatest extremes of

physical existence, we will find contradictory predictions.

Quantum mechanics and General Relativity describe black holes in very different ways because
http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v73/p615/p615.pdfhttp://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v73/p615/p615.pdfhttp://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v73/p615/p615.pdfhttp://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=213http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=212http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=212http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=213http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v73/p615/p615.pdf


14/23

they looking at the universe from exactly opposite prospectives, the unimaginable structures

that govern the cosmos and the unimaginably small events that govern each microcosm. If there

is a holy grail in physics, for the last century it has been the hope to combine the two into a

complete, consistent, comfortable description. But will Gdel's assertion, by nature of

perspective, mean they will always be at odds?

o Aug. 15, 2013 at 10:06 a.m.

5.

o amit chirstain

o now in kathamandu

photon in black hole no more photons ,they become part of it ,means eaten by charged ions and

elctromagentic ,field ,it means light is not light ,its benting but in stratight ,just we saif when weused blade and see reflection from sharp teeth of blade ,so its is just that kind of ,

there is more is how photn get charge and light get lost ,its two way we could define ,

one prizm that making wavelenght of light week means distrbutuon of light ,and one

elctromagnetic field and chargee ion ,those making dumb photns movement.

so here light has lost ,not as we are thiking ,time to time if we will keep prizm then they light will

lost and its strenght will lost ,and if we will see photn working they are uncharged ,but

electromagentic filed and high density enviornment if we will consider infinty ,then photon

dischrge that we were thiking that all time ,it will not

o Aug. 15, 2013 at 10:06 a.m.

6.

o A.J. Sutter

o Tokyo, Japan

"Information is always preserved" applies at best at the quantum level, not at the macroscopicone. Moreover, "information" refers to strings of symbols, not to their meaning. This article's

claim about the Bible and the Kama Sutra blurs each of these distinctions. Particularly, it

ignores that printed letters aren't encoded at the quantum level. Each letter is a bulk aggregate

of around 10E16 atoms.

Bulk chemistry doesn't always preserve information. Suppose we could distinguish individual
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=211http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=210http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=210http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=211


15/23

burning letters on a page because they use different amounts of ink. Books tend to burn from

their edges inward, and many letters will burn simultaneously; fire would "read" the letters to us

in a jumble. To distinguish two books we'd need both to know a priori the statistical

characteristics of the texts being burnt, and to detect a sufficient sample of distinct burning

letters from each.

Now print out someone's genome but replace the ATGC of the genetic code with p, q, b, and d,

all printed with the same size and shape. Read it in English, Arabic and Japanese styles and the

information will change. Burn it. Detecting amounts of burning ink would tell us nothing about

the correct orientations of each burning symbol or of the book itself.

And simply: once a book's last copy is burnt, it can't be read. Dissenters should kindly restore all

the texts from the ancient library of Alexandria, to prove their point.

o Aug. 15, 2013 at 10:06 a.m.

7.

o amit chirstain

o now in kathamandu

so thats why light is not appearing ,if we will consider ,it is just like zero pinpoint where light

will not be reflect ,means simple making photns so centric in this electro magnetic field ,thats

why in black hole lot of dimensions where light has trapped m,means photons ,or they become

part of ccharge by some great electro magentic field ,so from surface to end black is telling us

how one ,planet convert in it and means when it was palnet there was lot of dimensions with

light ,and same in blackhole but its infinty dimensions ,we cant predict over that .

o Aug. 15, 2013 at 10:06 a.m.

8.

o amit chirstain

o now in kathamandu

i am not in favour too much first its imaginary and second if light is lost and so reason is simple

there is so much gravity field as we know ,lot of elctro magnetic reaction ,by that only one thing

happned a unarged photon become part of chrging numbers over there ,just like neutron they

made up nucleaus part or just become charge


16/23

o Aug. 15, 2013 at 10:06 a.m.

9.

o Retired Veteran

o NH

What of the possibility of Ted and Bob each being half of the other?

There are so many possibilities "The Impossible Is Possible!"

o

Aug. 15, 2013 at 10:05 a.m.

10.

o Ann Paddock

o Dayton, Ohio

Gravitation is a by-product of mass. i can tell you where a car on the freeway is, or how fast it is

traveling, not both. The macro and the micro are of the same stuff. Want to understand theuniverse, understand the function of the human brain. Everything "our there" is in here. Find it.

o Aug. 15, 2013 at 5:52 a.m.

O RECOMMENDED1

11.

o notohp2002

o USA

It is all very very interesting. Not trying to be funny. I was thinking if the particles of the

universe are entangled ( connected forever) does this mean that eventually the universe will

violate the principle of thermodynamics ( cannot recall the right word for it) and contract or go
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17/23

backwords exactly as it expanded but in reverse, because the particles retain information to

guide the collapse.

o Aug. 15, 2013 at 5:52 a.m.

12.

o JeanValJean

o NYC

So- lemme get this right- the newly forming black hole becomes infinitely dense, infinitely

massive, expands at the speed of light and the "firewall" of the black hole contains all the 2-d

coded information for the 3-d universe within. Right? So what's the issue?

o Aug. 15, 2013 at 5:52 a.m.

13.

o Robert L. Oldershaw

o Amherst, MA, USA

It is important to understand the difference between theories of principle (Special or General

Relativity) and model-building (the Standard Model of particle physics, especially Quantum

ChromoDynamics).

Model-building can work moderately well if you start out with assumptions that are empirically

well-motivated.

However, if your model-building has a foundation that contains one or more fundamental

assumptions that are wrong (e.g., Ptolemaic astronomy) then your models get increasinglyweird, complicated, and in need of ever more "epicycles" to "save the phenomenon".

In the early 1900s physicists adopted three dubious and closely related fundamental

assumptions: strict reductionism, absolute scale, and absolute scale invariance for dimensional

"constants" like the gravitational coupling constant, G.


18/23

Increasingly, physics has suffered from these assumptions. Perhaps we are approaching the

point at which the anxiety over the lack of progress in theoretical physics is getting severe

enough for physicists to go back and explore three alternative assumptions: limited

reductionism, relative scale, and self-similar scaling throughout nature. These alternative

assumptions lead naturally to a fully unified paradigm for all of nature based on conformal

geometry and the fundamental symmetry of discrete self-similarity, i.e., a discrete fractal

paradigm for the cosmos.

Robert L. Oldershaw

http://www3.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw

Discrete Scale Relativity/Fractal Cosmology

o Aug. 15, 2013 at 5:52 a.m.

14.

o Norton

o Nevada

Ben Bederson, one of my old NYU. graduate school plasma/atomic physics(his expertise)

professor's comment "This is the closest I have ever seen in NYT to a genuine scientific article in

a peer reviewed physics journal. It was thrilling to read, (capitalizing his words for emphasis)

'EVEN THOUGH I BARELY UNDERSTOOD MUCH OF ITS CONTENT, THE SAME AS WHEN

I READ PEER REVIEWED PHYSICS JOURNALS'". evokes the same awe(s _ _ t) as his

incomprehensible plasma physics lectures. Methinks maybe he was writing this as recent

American Physical Society journals editor-in-chief official to promote physics, but really Ben, if

you barely understood much of its contents, the same as when you read a peer reviewed paper,

then, like Timothy Glennon's first comment yesterday (now deleted it seems) "Articles like this,

although I got through it all, give me a headache... literally.... trying to follow the flow of words

and make sense out of the concepts and conclusions...finally filling me, a well educated,

intelligent, and well-read adult, with wonder at how much I don't know and will never know or

understand about something that so clearly has great relevance and meaning to so many people,

witness the replies here...it's very humbling". Such "jargonial-obfuscation" aka fancy shmancy

lingo to snow the rubes is mere media-hype P.R. spin-doctoring "show-biz".

It's only August, not X-mas, but this snow job is early; "thrilling" maybe, but gibberish in its

meaning which is after all why it exists.

o Aug. 15, 2013 at 5:52 a.m.
http://www3.amherst.edu/~rloldershawhttp://www3.amherst.edu/~rloldershawhttp://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=202http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=201http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=201http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=202http://www3.amherst.edu/~rloldershaw


19/23

15.

o Norton

o Nevada

Jim Baggott's book "Farewell to Reality: How Fairytale(THE CORRECT WORD!!!) Physics

Betrays the Search for Scientific Truth" hits the nail on the head deadon!!! Bravo!!! (It joins

such notables as: Dewedney's "Yes We Have No Neutrons:, Pigliucci's "Nonsense on Stilts",

Pielke and Pielke-Jarvis' "Useless Arithmetic: Why Environmental Scientists Can't Predict the

Future", Parks' "Voodoo Science", Perelman and Correidora's "How Physics and Astronomy Get

Done", Naser and Gruber's "Manifold Destiny",... ad infinitum, ad NAUSEUM!!!). Overblown

Overbye: typical sycophant media-hype P.R. spin-doctoring show-biz!!! "Full of fury, signifying

probably absolutely nothing!!! Lotsa fancy shmancy lingo to snow the rubes, aka "jargonial

obfuscation"!!! Quoting Heinrich Heine "Ich weiss nicht was soll es bedeuten"(I don't know

what to believe). Equally believable is classic oriental "the universe is a kumquat, unless it is a

persimmon" or "you can never sometimes tell what you least expect most".

o Aug. 15, 2013 at 5:52 a.m.

16.

o Dave in Pa

o Pennsylvania

The Universe, and all therein, is an incomprehensibly profound and complex Thought in the

mind of God. I believe we will be ultimately unable to comprehend the "big picture" of the

Universe, instead only understanding some of the facets, as only God can comprehend Himself

or the totality of His creation.

o Aug. 15, 2013 at 5:52 a.m.

17.


20/23

o Paul Johnson

o Helena Montana

What is Dr. Susskind suggesting when he states that "time" will tell?

o Aug. 15, 2013 at 5:51 a.m.

18.

o harry

o michigan

Before I reach the event horizon I hope someone is born who will conceptualize gravity. I stillhope humanity will flourish and survive when the riddle of gravity is finally solved. This article

and the comments are why I still keep my beloved times subscription.

o Aug. 15, 2013 at 5:51 a.m.

O RECOMMENDED1

19.

o Abhas Mitra

o Mumbai, India

Einstein's intuition was right. This is so because it has been shown that though the BH solutions

are exact they involve integration constants whose values are zero. To be precise, it has been

shown that the Schwarzschild BHs correspond to unique gravitational mass M=0 ( Mitra, J

Math Phys 50, 4, 042502, 2009). Similarly Kerr BHs too correspond to M=0 and rotation

parameter a=0 (Mitra; astro-ph/0409049, 0407501). This means that the static BH solutions

correspond to the asymptotic final states of physical gravitational collapse where entire mass-energy and angular momentum are radiated away. Thus the so-called BH Candidates must be

Quasi- BHs rather than true BHs. Further it has been shown that the natural form of the quasi-

BHs are quasi-static hot balls of plasma (Eternally Collapsing Objects) where outward radiation

pressure balances the inward pull of gravity: i.e., ECOs radiate at their GR Eddington

Luminosity. (Mitra MNRAS 404, pp. L50-L54, 2010; MNRAS 367, L66-L68, 2006; 369, 492-

496, 2006). So BH candidate surfaces really have FIREWALLS without the self-contradictory


21/23

mumbo-jumbo: `Èvent Horizon is a vacuum surface with no special property'' and yet ideas

like `ÈH behaves like a MEMBRANE, or BRICK WALL, where quantum gravity effects are

immense... and now EH is a FIREWALL'' . Unfortunately even Nobel laureate physicists are

vying with one another to own a pie of the `BH mystery'' and `Ìnformation Paradox''. There is

no exact BH, and no paradox. But golden goose...

o Aug. 14, 2013 at 8:03 p.m.

20.

o Rob Keyse

o Bethlehem, PA

I can understand why Alice and Bob are entangled, they were created (out of nothing) at the

same place and at the same time, one just inside and the other just outside of the event horizon.

Actually I'm not sure that they were created at the same time because time and space are not

independent - especially at or near a black hole and of course, by definition they were not

created at the same place either. Anyway quantum laws suggest that they were both part of the

same event and are therefore entangled.

As for Ted, like some old uncle from across the other side of the world, I cannot see any reason

at all to suppose that he be entangled with Alice or with Bob - he should have a Susan

somewhere inside the hole. Surely Susan has as much of a connection to Bob as Ted does with

Alice! Besides I really don't see how there is any coherence across the generations; or what kind

of information exists in Susan that must necessarily be endowed to Alice?

o Aug. 14, 2013 at 8:03 p.m.

21.

o Chris

o Indiana

Who cares? What has this got to do with me waking up in the morning, breaking my back at a

dead end job, and repeating it the next day? Birth, life, death, thats what happens. It doesnt


22/23

matter what's inside a black hole!

[email protected]

o Aug. 14, 2013 at 8:03 p.m.

22.

o berchman

o Carlisle, PA

This article is complete gibberish to me. Perhaps that is because the author is translating

mathematical equations, the language of physics, into English.

o Aug. 14, 2013 at 8:03 p.m.

23.

o Arnie Tracey

o Ottawa Ontario Canada

It seems that this science has reached it's logical end, and has transcended into a wormhole of

illogically speculative grasping.

In Information Technology we have the KISS acronym, meaning Keep It Simple, Stupid.

I'd be willing to share KISS with physicists.

o Aug. 14, 2013 at 8:03 p.m.

O RECOMMENDED1

24.

o mreda14

o Calgary AB Canada
mailto:[email protected]:[email protected]://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=194http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=193http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=192http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=192http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=193http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/13/science/space/a-black-hole-mystery-wrapped-in-a-firewall-paradox.html?comments#permid=194mailto:[email protected]


23/23

Mother Nature once upon century creates a gifted person by random mutation of genes

combined with evolution and sure it did when the late Prof. A. Einstein presented his theory of

gravitational force and relativity and late prof. James Clerk Maxwell when he laid the

foundation of mathematical physics. It is well known fact that Prof. Maxwell most prominent

achievement was to formulate a set of equations that united previously unrelated observations,

experiments, and equations of electricity, magnetism, and optics into a consistent theory. His

theory of classical electromagnetism demonstrates that electricity, magnetism and light are all

manifestations of the same phenomenon, namely the electromagnetic field. Maxwell's

achievements concerning electromagnetism have been called the "second great unification in

physics", after the first one realised by Isaac Newton. It is obvious that the studies of black holes

all based on the result of telescope observation. These telescope harvest light that supposed to

come from black holes that are millions of light years away. In fact light has to travel in space

millions of years ago in order to reach the telescope on earth in 2012. Basically what we see in

the telescope is incidents that happen millions or not billions of years ago.

o Aug. 14, 2013 at 8:03 p.m.

25.

o at large

o Paris

Actually: Schroedinger's cat is not even really here - much less dead or alive. We are not actuallyhere. We are just manifestations of our real selves and our true beings located in some place far

far away - or perhaps right next door. It is the height of arrogance to think that this iteration of

our existence is "the existence".

o Aug. 14, 2013 at 7:34 p.m.

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