Socrates and Socrates and PlatoPlato

Socrates (d. 399 BCE)Socrates (d. 399 BCE)

Plato (429-348 BCE)Plato (429-348 BCE)

SocratesSocrates

Socrates questioned fundamental moral Socrates questioned fundamental moral values of Athenian Societyvalues of Athenian Society

What is courage? What is virtue? What What is courage? What is virtue? What is Piety? These are all Socratic is Piety? These are all Socratic questions.questions.

Had many followersHad many followers Critical of democracyCritical of democracy Convicted by an Athenian jury of Convicted by an Athenian jury of

corrupting the youth and heresy in 399.corrupting the youth and heresy in 399.

Socrates wrote nothing. Plato used Socrates wrote nothing. Plato used Socrates as a character in most of his Socrates as a character in most of his dialogues.dialogues.

Plato was Socrates’ most famous followerPlato was Socrates’ most famous follower Almost all of Plato’s work is in dialogue Almost all of Plato’s work is in dialogue

formform Most people think the early dialogues Most people think the early dialogues

give us a picture of the historical give us a picture of the historical SocratesSocrates

Ancient AthensAncient Athens

Athens was the largest Greek city Athens was the largest Greek city statestate

Athens was a pure democracy—all Athens was a pure democracy—all male citizens could take part in the male citizens could take part in the assembly and vote on law and public assembly and vote on law and public policy.policy.

The everyday executive function of The everyday executive function of Government was conducted by a Government was conducted by a council of 500. Chosen by lot.council of 500. Chosen by lot.

The The PhaedoPhaedo

Socrates says that the life of the Socrates says that the life of the philosopher is a preparation for death. philosopher is a preparation for death. What does he mean by this?What does he mean by this?

Death is a good thing for the philosopher. Death is a good thing for the philosopher. After death the philosopher will have an After death the philosopher will have an existence far preferable to earthly lifeexistence far preferable to earthly life

What is so bad about our earthly What is so bad about our earthly existence?existence?

What is so good about the afterlife?What is so good about the afterlife?

Socrates does not mean that life is itself Socrates does not mean that life is itself bad, but that there is something better bad, but that there is something better after death (at least for the philosophers)after death (at least for the philosophers)

Philosophers desire knowledge. But S. Philosophers desire knowledge. But S. thinks that our physical bodies get in the thinks that our physical bodies get in the way of our ability to obtain true way of our ability to obtain true knowledge.knowledge.

Sense perception is deceptive and Sense perception is deceptive and incompleteincomplete

Physical desires confuse us about what Physical desires confuse us about what our true goal in life is.our true goal in life is.

“ “ Then he will do this most perfectly who Then he will do this most perfectly who approaches the object with thought approaches the object with thought alone, without associating any sight with alone, without associating any sight with his thought, or dragging in any sense his thought, or dragging in any sense perception with his reasoning, but who, perception with his reasoning, but who, using pure thought alone, tries to track using pure thought alone, tries to track down each reality purely and by itself down each reality purely and by itself freeing himself as far as possible from freeing himself as far as possible from eyes and ears, and in a word, from the eyes and ears, and in a word, from the whole body.” 66awhole body.” 66a

What is wrong with the What is wrong with the objects of the senses?objects of the senses?

Take a physical drawing of a circle. Take a physical drawing of a circle. The drawing is a circular drawing, The drawing is a circular drawing, but it can never embody a true but it can never embody a true mathematical circle. The true circle, mathematical circle. The true circle, the form of a circle, can be the form of a circle, can be understood only with the mind.understood only with the mind.

A person may be just or beautiful. But A person may be just or beautiful. But they cannot just BE just or beautiful. they cannot just BE just or beautiful. They will only be so from a certain They will only be so from a certain perspective and for a certain time.perspective and for a certain time.

Everything is the physical world is Everything is the physical world is an imperfect approximation of the an imperfect approximation of the form of that—the form which can be form of that—the form which can be grasped not with our senses but with grasped not with our senses but with our mind.our mind.

Beauty, goodness, justice, humanity, Beauty, goodness, justice, humanity, etc. each of these is a form that we etc. each of these is a form that we come to know with reason, not with come to know with reason, not with the senses.the senses.

When we are embodied it is impossible When we are embodied it is impossible to totally ignore the senses or the needs to totally ignore the senses or the needs of the body. It is hard for an embodied of the body. It is hard for an embodied person to grasp the forms.person to grasp the forms.

Thus the lover of knowledge will want to Thus the lover of knowledge will want to die because in death the philosopher will die because in death the philosopher will be able to obtain knowledge uimpeded be able to obtain knowledge uimpeded by the ills and deceptions of the body.by the ills and deceptions of the body.

But is it true that the philosopher, or But is it true that the philosopher, or anyone, really survives death?anyone, really survives death?

The argument from The argument from oppositesopposites

Everything that comes to be comes from Everything that comes to be comes from its opposite; sleeping comes from its opposite; sleeping comes from waking, something becomes cool from waking, something becomes cool from being hot etc.being hot etc.

The opposite of being alive is being deadThe opposite of being alive is being dead Therefore the living come from the dead Therefore the living come from the dead

and the dead come from the livingand the dead come from the living The soul therefore comes from death to The soul therefore comes from death to

life, back to death again and again.life, back to death again and again.

Problems with this Problems with this argumentargument

The argument claims that death is the The argument claims that death is the opposite of life.opposite of life.

But this is not so: the opposite of being But this is not so: the opposite of being alive is not being dead, its being not-alive is not being dead, its being not-alive.alive.

But from the claim “being alive comes But from the claim “being alive comes from being not alive” we do not get “the from being not alive” we do not get “the soul exists before life and after death” soul exists before life and after death” we get: something not alive exists before we get: something not alive exists before birth and after death.birth and after death.

The argument from The argument from recollectionrecollection

If you ask people the right questions, they If you ask people the right questions, they can come up with the correct answers. can come up with the correct answers.

We know that there is such a thing as We know that there is such a thing as equality, but we do not perceive it. Yet equality, but we do not perceive it. Yet when we perceive things that are similar when we perceive things that are similar to the equal, this brings to mind the to the equal, this brings to mind the form of equality—it is the form of form of equality—it is the form of equality that is knowledgeequality that is knowledge

Its like the picture of a Simmias recollects Its like the picture of a Simmias recollects the man, Simmias.the man, Simmias.

But you would not be able to recollect But you would not be able to recollect Simmias, if you did not already know Simmias, if you did not already know him. Likewize, you could not grasp what him. Likewize, you could not grasp what equality was from the somewhat equal equality was from the somewhat equal lines (for example), unless you already lines (for example), unless you already had the knowledge of the form of had the knowledge of the form of equality.equality.

We either have this knowledge at birth We either have this knowledge at birth and know it throughout life, or learning and know it throughout life, or learning is really just recollecting what we used is really just recollecting what we used to know but forgotto know but forgot

Therefore, Socrates concludes, the Therefore, Socrates concludes, the soul must have existed before birth soul must have existed before birth (In order to obtain this knowledge)(In order to obtain this knowledge)