ASSESSMENT OF UNESCO'S IMAGE WITHIN THE NATIONAL CONGRESS

FIN A l REP 0 R T

Sample Opinion Survey

BRASIllA, AUGUST 2001

Introduction

Objective of the Survey

In May 2001 Unesco's Office in Brazil contracted a specialised consultant to plan,coordinate, and implement a Qualitative Opinion Survey with senators and federalrepresentatives. The objective was to assess Unesco's institutional image with thistarget aUdience, and also to prepare recommendations of strategic actions inpartnership with the National Congress in order to improve its performancein the country.

Methodology

Since this is a qualitative opinion survey, the methodological procedure consistedin open interviews lasting 30 minutes on average. The intenriewed congressmenwere asked to answer freely and spontaneously with whatever came to theirminds. They were reassured that the contents of their answers would be keptwithin Unesco's premises exclusively for internal use. All of the intenriewees weregiven a partly structured intenriew model in which they could express theiropinions, value jUdgements, and suggestions.

The basic script for the intenriews was based on nine key questions, some ofwhich intentionally overlapped to encourage interviewees to express themselves.Depending on each person's performance the script was slightly changed in formand content. However, in essence it was applied to the interviewed target pUblicas follows:

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I) What image do you have of Unesco in general and what is yourperception of its activities in Brazil?

2) Do you think that Unesco works in Brazil to eradicate povertyand to support social development?

3) Among Unesco's themes of concern - Education, Science, Culture,Social Communication and Informatics, Environment, Human Rights, HistoricHeritage, Culture of Peace, Youth, Drugs, Aids - which, in your opinion,are most relevant in Brazil and which deserve more efforts?

4) How do you assess Unesco's work in partnership with the government atfederal, state, and municipal levels?

5) What about Unesco's relationship with civil society organisations ingeneral and with NGOs and Third Sector organisations in particular?

6) How would you assess Unesco's performance compared to that ofother agencies of the United Nations system in Brazil, such as UNDP, Unicef,WHO/Opas, Fao, and others?

7) How do you assess Unesco's relationship with the National Congress ingeneral and with the Committees of the House of Representatives and the Senatein particular?

8) Do you have any suggestions as to how Unesco could intensify itsrelations with the congressmen?

9) In short, what is your opinion about Unesco's contribution to thecountry, and how do you assess the performance of Unesco's Office in Brazil?

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ActivitiesUp to 18 July, 26 interviews were carried out, transcribed, analysed, andinterpreted. They involved seven senators (9% of the total) and 19 federalrepresentatives (4% of the total), out of a group of 40 congressmen selectedamong the benches of the main parties from both government and opposition.They also involved presidents and members of the Permanent Commissionsfrom the two Houses, whose concerns are connected with Unesco's mandate.The interviews lasted about 30 minutes and were carried out and recorded inBrasilia at the National Congress, at the offices of the respective congressmen.There were only four exceptions to that: an interview carried out througha long distance call, two others answered by fax, and one through e-mail.

The following letter was sent by fax to the selected group of 40 congressmen:

Mr Senator / Mr Representative,

I present to you our consultant, who "ill plan, coordinate, and implement a Qualitative

Opinion Survey to Assess the Institutional Image of Unesco in Brazil. The assessment will be

based on the statements of Senators and Federal Representatives, in particular those who develop

activities connected to the

issues under the scope of our organisation.

I thank you in advance for the attention given to him, and request your time for

a 30-minute interview. The contents will be kept solely within the premises of our organisation for

the purposes of the survey. I will be at your service if you need further information.

My earnest regards and renewed personal consideration.

Sincerely yours,

Jorge Werthein

Director of UNESCO Office in Brazil

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Problems encountered

The main problems had to do with the congressmen's lack of time to answerintenriew requests. Congressmen are known to spend only three days a week inBrasilia, particularly Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays, when major votingsand important debates mostly occur. On the other days, they are usually bUsywith their constituencies in their original states.

It is then a hard to reach target pUblic, especially when it comes to taking theirtime for thirty minutes consecutively to collect perceptions that require a certainamount of reflection. Both federal representatives and senators are more prone torespond and/or react to the demands of the ever changing political-economic agenda- giving priority to those issues raised by the media - and less willing to discourseon issues pertaining to long-term social processes. Hence the difficulty to schedulesuch interviews. Many times they had to be rescheduled or simply cancelled.

To make it a little more complicated, the period chosen for the survey (.May andJune) was full of denunciations and political scandals in the media, involving boththe Senate and the House of Representatives, besides announcements of the energycrisis and the threat of economic instability. This ended up pushing the surveyinto the constitutional congress recess period (July).

Results achieved

A final report of the activities carried out, comprising full interviews, summary ofmain topics, final conclusions, and recommendations of strategic actions in tunewith the survey conclusions.

congressmen intenriewed

1. Senator Ricardo Santos (PSDB-ES)

2. Senator LUcio Alcantara (PSDB-CE)

3. Senator Hugo Napoleao (PFL-PI)

4. Representative Rita Camata (P.MDB-ES)

5. Representative Father Roque (PT-PR)

6. Representative Leo Alcantara (PSDB-CE)

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7. Representative Geraldo Magela (PT-DF)

8. Representative Feu Rosa (PSDB-ES)

9. Representative Esther Grossi (PT-RS)

10. Representative Maria Elvira (PMDB-MG)

11. Representative Laura Carneiro (PFL-RJ)

12. Representative Nelson Marchesan (PSDB-RS)

13. Representative Marisa Serrano (PSDB-MS)

14. Representative Fernando Gabeira (recently left the PV and joined the PT-RJ)

15. Representative Dr Helio (PDT-SP)

16. Representative Osmar Terra (PMDB-RS)

17. Representative Marcos Rolim (PT-RS)

18. Senator Pedro Simon (PMDB-RS)

19. Representative Eduardo Jorge (PT-SP)

20. Representative Atila Lins (PFL-AM)

21. Representative Ivan Paixao (PPS-SE)

22. Senator Emilia Fernandes (PT-RS)

23. Senator Luiz Otavio (No party-PA)

24. Representative Nelson Pellegrino (PT-BA)

25. Representative Inocencio Oliveira (PFL-PE)

26. Senator Eduardo Suplicy (PT-SP)

According to the party political and ideological orientation of the above listed 26congressmen, 15 integrate the government support basis (right, centre-right, andcentre-left) and 11 compose the opposition (left and centre-left). As to theiroriginal regions, the interviewed congressmen are distributed as follows:Southeast, nine; South, eight; Northeast, six; Midwest, two; North, two.Regarding gender, there are six women in the group.

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Analysisand transcriptionof the interviews

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I El Senator Ricardo Santos

Republic Senator since June of 2000 for the State of Espirito Santo, he is amember of the Brazilian Social Democracy Party (PSDB). President of theCommission of Education of the Federal Senate, he is also a member of thecommissions of Infrastructure, Social Matters, Foreign Affairs, and Surveillance

and Control. He was three times part of the first team of the state of EspiritoSanto government as a state secretary of Planning, Agriculture, and Finances.

Analysis of the interview

The senator presents a high knowledge of Unesco's work. His references are highlypraising and well based. He is a strategic partner as president of the Commissionof Education, where the possibilities of joint work with Unesco are broad, as hehimself proposes. It should be pointed out that his information on Unesco inBrazil concern mainly the partnerships with the state of Espirito Santo, that is,they are based on his personal experience. He is an ally with whom Unescoshould keep a good relationship and explore new possibilities of partnershipwork, such as social mobilisation projects to which the Senate's communicationinfrastructure can be applied.

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- I consider Unesco a highly trustworthy institution due to the work that has beencarried out along decades with the United Nations Organisation in the fields ofeducation, culture, science, technology, and others. I am acquainted with Unesco'swork in partnership with Third World countries and mainly with some states inBrazil. In Espirito Santo, my state, in particular, Unesco has a very interestingperformance in articulation with the Secretariat of Education in significantprograms: grade acceleration and elaboration of educational plans.

- Recently we, the state government and Unesco, developed a joint work towardsestablishing a policy for the prevention of violence against youths at social risk.Today, when we talk about a culture of peace, prevention of violence, and combatof poverty by using its mechanisms, Unesco has been an important partner asconsultant and process generator. In this sense I consider it a highly trustworthyentity, mostly when we want to build a more democrat and socially just country.- I assess Unesco's activities as extremely positive, and I think the same of all theactions supported by them. In specific regard to the assistance to youths andadolescents, the Map of Violence draws our attention to the seriousness of this

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Brazilian problem. Unfortunately, it takes part of our youth, especially in the 15to 24-year range. I consider it to be a highly relevant work. Unesco's work isdefinitely more visible to me in the social area.

- I have participated in meetings with Unesco in the fields of education, agrarianreform, and qualification of personnel to work in settlements. I participated inmeetings with Unesco concerning the professionalisation of youths at social risk.Therefore, based on the activities in which I participated as a pUblic person,either as congressman or as director in the state of Espirito Santo, the most visibleconnection with Unesco's work is that focused on improving living conditions,helping democracy develop, and spreading the culture of peace and non-violence.

- I think Unesco's presence is indispensable in developing countries like Brazil,given the enormous problems they face. Due to its actions around the world,Unesco comes across successful experiences that are being developed in othercountries. Thus, the assessorship work and the divulging of significant experiencesin progress in other countries are very important. Ideas are spread concerning theimprovement of living conditions, the combat of poverty and violence, and thereduction of social and income inequalities in Brazil.

- The attention given by Unesco to issues like education and prevention ofviolence against youths at social risk is an efficacious action to combat poverty.The visibility given by Unesco to the Programa Bolsa-Escola (the Brazilian schoolallowance program) is almost directly connected with the programs to eradicatepoverty. It has helped to disseminate it as a very well conceived idea, which tiesthe compensatory measure of a direct transfer of financial resources to poorfamilies to the child's attendance at school.

- I understand that Unesco and Unicef have a high quality performance with theobjectives under their mandates. Unicef works with children and Unesco acts inthe broader field of education, culture, science, and combat of violence. I see thatin recent years, since the 90s decade, other multilateral bodies, such as the BIDand the Bird, have been approaching these social issues not only through fundingand investments, but also through new strategies such as understanding povertyand stimulating more efficacious strategies to combat poverty. Within this context,how can we fight corruption? Corruption is proving to be an obstacle to povertycombat strategies.- I am the president of the Commission of Education of the Senate. And sinceUnesco's attributions and those of the Commission of Education are almostoverlapped, I proposed a closer association between the Commission and Unesco

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that would bring clear benefits to all. Unesco has a wide experience in this field,and we from the Commission of Education have the power to make legislativedecisions and allocate pUblic resources that perhaps will help bring about manynew alternatives to reduce social unbalances and violence.

- We requested Unesco's support on a work program of the Commission ofEducation. It would not only receive law projects from the Executive Power andfrom general initiatives by the senators, but would also play an institutional roleso as to generate outcomes for the country's educational system, more investmentsin science and technology, and new mechanisms to promote culture.

- Unesco has acquired a competence from its international experience. It knowsabout experiences around the world, successful experiences, and even regionalexperiences in Brazil. But it is also necessary to turn these experiences intopUblic policies.

- The performance of the present Unesco representation in Brazil is positivelyaggressive. For instance, Unesco went to the state of Espirito Santo and requesteda meeting with the state government secretaries. They wanted to launch theCulture of Peace campaign, sign an agreement in the education field, and discusswith them the issue of violence. In the map of violence we were classified as oneof the states with highest violence rates, especially among youths. So, initiativeslike this from Unesco are very important to cause actions by state and citygovernments.

- I did not have a close contact with other administrations of Unesco in Brazil.But I would say it now has a quite proactive performance.

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2. Senator Lucio Alcantara

He is in his first mandate as a Republic senator representing the state of Ceara.He is a member of the Brazilian Social Democracy Party (PSDB) and was a federalrepresentative twice. A doctor of medicine, he was also the mayor of Fortalezaand three times the state secretary of Health. He is the president of theCommission of Economic Affairs of the Federal Senate and is an effectivemember of the commissions of Education and Social Matters, among others.

Analysis of the interview

The senator is another important Unesco ally at the National Congress. Unesco'simage with him is highly positive. He demonstrates general acquaintance withUnesco's mandate, but does not comment on any specific relevant activity. He istherefore a strategic partner on whom Unesco can count to obtain prestige andsupport.

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- The image I have of Unesco is highly positive. It is an agency committed to thebest causes, targeting the dissemination of culture, the defence of human rights,and the preservation of cultural and political pluralism. In short, my image ofUnesco is that of an international body committed to values concerning theguarantee of rights and aspirations to the population in the cultural, political,and human spheres.

- My assessment of Unesco's activities in Brazil is highly satisfactory. Unesco isactively involved in social movements, peace mobilisations, registration of citiesthat can be turned into human, environmental issues, education, human rights,combat of violence, and other kinds of plagues that affect the population, such asaids. In short, I have a positive assessment that Unesco's performance in Brazilaims at putting into place all its principles and the basis of its creation.

- I think Unesco carries out a work that is not antagonistic to the government.It joins the government in some efforts to accomplish its goals. Likewise, whencarrying out researches, surveys, and assessments, it also points out gaps orinsufficiencies in certain government policies. This does not mean it is hostile tothe government or governments, but it develops a synergetic role with themwithout giving up its analytical stand regarding the execution of pUblic policies.

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- Unesco's partnership with civil entities takes place on a very constructive level.

- In a certain way, Unesco acts as a catalyst to mobilise these institutions andthese sectors. It is necessary to coordinate the role and work of the governmentwith that of society and all these institutions in search of solutions to the severeproblems that we encounter.

- Unesco presents proposals to eradicate poverty in Brazil. It needs to be under­stood - I am not sure this is clearly perceived by the popUlation - that Unescoitself does not have a direct executive action. The institution by itself does notcarry out actions in this direction. It brings up the debate, stimulates discussions,presents proposals, mobilises society, and summons pUblic and private organisationsto get involved in these matters. This is the effective action developed by Unesco.

- Unesco gives capitalism or economic development a human perspective. Unescostrives for that. It provokes, brings up these issues very strongly and frequently,to try and change paradigms that unfortunately are still very orthodox regardingeconomic and financial matters.

- I believe Unesco has much more visibility than some other bodies. Moreover, itis seen as an organisation that has a humanist approach to development. It iswary of the minorities issue and others of cultural and social nature. It is an insti­tution that echoes this feeling of social injustice, cultural marginality, and combatof violence that permeates society today.

- A partnership between Unesco and congressmen is always highly necessary andpositive.

- I consider the present Unesco representative very dynamic and active.

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3. Senator Hugo Napoleao

He is in his fourth mandate as a Republic senator representing the state of Piaui.A member of the Liberal Front Party (PFL), he was federal representative twice.He was also governor of the state of Piau!, minister of Education and Culture, andminister of Communications. Presently, he is the leader of the PFL in the FederalSenate, where he also integrates the Commission of Education, among others.

Analysis of the interview

Although his perception of the institutional image is generally good, the senatorindirectly endorses criticisms that Unesco does little for education, while doingmuch to grant cultural or natural heritage titles. It should also be pointed outthat he considers Unesco to be 'elitist'. However, his kind availability for theinterview and his frankness and good will in presenting suggestions recommendgreater attention to this congressman, given his importance in the party politicalcontext.

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- Indeed, Unesco plays a very important role in its many programs. I have hadmany contacts with Unesco and its work around the world. However, curiously,last week in Teresina, state of Piau!, as I was giving a lecture on the ThirdSummit Meeting of the Americas - which I was pleased to participate withPresident Fernando Henrique's committee, in Quebec - one of the participantsasked about this. He was a university professor and he said, 'While Unescodistributes humanity heritage titles, education is still having problems, and thesocial sector is still in deficit'. It was the first time I heard this. 'Unesco is not tobe blamed, but there is a paradox, an exaggeration in the distribution of thehumanity heritage title', said the professor. Nonetheless, this does not take themerit of Unesco's historic value as a UN Organisation for Education, Science, andCulture.

- Education always and, nowadays, environment, because everything that is donetoday is closely related to the environment issue. Not that other issues are lessimportant. Research, for instance, is essential for the sciences, and so on. Buttake a look at what has recently happened at the Kyoto Convention. The UnitedStates did not sign or ratify it. And why is that? To protect their greatest industries,which continue to release pollutants etc. So, this is an extremely critical issue. It

is proved that many things depend on the ecological equilibrium. The fauna and

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the flora need to be preserved. Also, this very recent issue of the holes in theozone layer and global warming; I think this has to do with health primarily.I think Unesco should pedal on this.

- I am not sure we should mention the international funding institutions. TheBID and the Bird are both essential for the world and for the Americas. Unicef isundoubtedly a significant presence, carrying out direct campaigns even in homes.Independently, Fao also has a remarkable international performance. But Unescohas always been a respected name.

- There should also be a good relationship with the governments. The diffusionof occasionally antagonistic or government unfavourable surveys is obviously notpleasant, although it is natural. Nobody likes being talked down. Unfortunately,surveys are sometimes rude, but they have to exist in order to provide a counter­balance. A few days ago in Brazil the newspapers analysed the Brazilian socialissue. Although there has been an increase in the living quality levels and evenin income, social problems are still great, and the gap between social classes isenormous.

- There are just too many NGOs. The proliferation of NGOs should be looked atclosely, because many of them have only a yuppie, fussy, and noisy approach;others have merely and clearly an ideological contesting bias. But others areactually qualified and transparent non-governmental representations of civilsociety. This should be minutely examined, especially in the ministry of mycoreligionist Sarney Filho. A filtering should be done. It is not hard to assess.I think they have their participation, their value, and their contribution.But some lines should be drawn.

- Unesco's image is elitist. It is not an institution that has much penetration intothe pUblic. It is very hidden.

- By using its communication potential. Only through this could it be possible,by clearly demonstrating what has effectively been done to fully reach the socialarea. Honestly, at first sight, this is not passed on to the population.

- I have absolutely no acquaintance with Unesco's actions in partnership with theNational Congress. If they do exist, I was unaware of that. with the Senate andthe House of Representatives? I have been in the National Congress for twenty-sixyears and, frankly, I have never heard of it. I have been in the Senate for fourteenyears and it has been twenty-six since I got here. But this would be very important.

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Unesco is a global centre for the expansion of culture and information, that is,of science, technology, and other issues dealt with, such as communications,environment, historic heritage etc. But this would be highly interesting.

- First, if Unesco is to have a clearer penetration in the Congress houses,the commissions of Foreign Affairs, National Defence, and Education are mostindicated. There is a commission in the House of Representatives and anotherone that are also closely related. It is the Commission of Science, Technology,Communication, and Computing. The commissions in the House of Representativesare in greater number. We only have seven in the Senate. In the House ofRepresentatives, I think there are nineteen. I think this is the right representa­tiveness. Thus, Unesco should get together with the presidents of thesecommissions for a joint work. Moreover, there are discussions in progressat the National Congress that can be of interest to Unesco.

- I do not know. Does Unesco have a congress assessorship? There is thepossibility of registration. I cannot tell you. From international bodies?I am not aware of. I cannot even tell you if the internal regUlations of bothhouses will allow for that. But a follow-up is perfectly possible. In Brazilian law,in the Constitution, they are called pressure groups. In the United States theycall it lobby, but in Brazil, out of a complete misunderstanding, the word is usedpejoratively. But the Congress is full of them. All the ministries have a presencehere, the confederations and federations, workers unions etc. Why not to followup? This is something that should be considered. Congressmen receive them, takethem, and bring them back.

- Usually, all of us leave on Thursday evening and come back on Monday eveningor Tuesday morning. What we do? The other day one newspaper wrote, 'Whiletaking some rest in Teresina, the senator... ' I was not resting at all. I get there atnight and the next morning I am at my office to work the whole day. If I am inTeresina on Saturday I also work, go to a lecture, like I have just done, or go tothe interior of the state. I get back on Sunday evening to be in my office againon Monday. In short, it is a permanent job. You never stop.

- Unesco could help the states through the congressmen by consulting withthem here and making the connection there. I, for one, have a house and anoffice there, and my office is open everyday of the week.

- The Senate works differently. In the House of Representatives they get anallowance to employ a given number of people. That does not happen here. The

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Senate has its own staff plus a few workers under the CLT (Consolidation ofLabour Law) system. But in the states, for example, congressmen are responsiblefor setting up and running their offices. Just take the Federal Senate logbook, theSenators' Addresses, and check out the entries for Brasilia and the states.

- Suggestion 1. Meetings with the presidents of the commissions; 2. Find theiraddresses in the states, because participation is very dispersed in the states. Incertain states, representatives have bases in different cities. Some of them arebased in Sao Paulo, for instance, others in Ribeirao Preto, Americana, BaufU,and so on. Unesco in Brasilia should have access to their addresses in the states.It could also reach the Legislative Assemblies, and so on.

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4. Representative Rita Camata

Federal representative for the Brazilian Democratic Movement Party (PMDB)of the state of Espirito Santo, she is in her fourth mandate at the House ofRepresentatives. She entered the Congress in 1987 in the National ConstitutionalAssembly. Considered by the media and by her congress colleagues as a 'breathof renovation' in the Brazilian Congress, she became renown for her work as thewriter of the Child and Adolescent Statute. A member of several permanentcommissions in the House of Representatives, her actions stand out inthe defence and promotion of human and social rights.

Analysis of the interview

Since she is a congresswoman connected with the defence and promotion of therights of children, adolescents, and women, as well as with human rights in general,the representative demonstrates average acquaintance with Unesco's work. Shewas very laconic as to specific references to practical actions. It should be pointedout, however, that her perception of the institutional image of Unesco is generallygood. Greater attention to the relationship with this representative is recommended,given her proven mobilisation capacity within and outside the Congress.

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- My assessment is that, as an international organisation, Unesco hasprovided great contributions to the fields of youth and promotion and defenceof the rights of children and adolescents in Brazil. It has supported socialmovements and has also acted jointly with the government in order to achievea more just and fraternal society.

- Regarding the historic heritage, Unesco's work is very important. In the field ofhuman rights too, I emphasise the combat of violence, an area which I am closelyrelated to and in which I have performed. The contribution received from Unescoreally makes a difference.

- For the past ten years I have seen Unesco develop consistent and stableactions. Nowadays, it has been much more aggressive dealing with the youth issue.We have the perception that this work is extremely important. The demands inthis sector are great. It is our responsibility to approach the youth segment as thefuture governors of this country.

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- Unicef has had a strong performance, but I think presently it is rather weak. Ihave already made this pUblic. But there is also the International Amnesty. Weconsider these two international bodies as having a similar performance to thatof Unesco in our country. These bodies bring great contributions to the fight forhuman and social rights in Brazil.

- I think these partnerships are important for the issues of education, historicheritage, and human rights. These are areas that must have pUblic policies.Therefore, I think these actions become very significant at the city, state,and federal levels when it comes to areas in which Unesco itself performs.

- I think there are very serious organisations in the country and they resentthe lack of support to their actions and to the development of policies for thosesectors. UndOUbtedly, it would be very important in critical moments, even asregards the technical and financial issues of these bodies. I work intensively bothin the areas of children and human rights, and also in the defence of minorities.And the NGOs resent the unavailability of a technical structure or financialsupport for research. I think it would be extremely important if this couldactually take place more often.

- We have received great contributions in the areas of human rights, violenceagainst youths. And it seems there are also partnerships with the Ministry ofHealth in this area and also in education. But this is an area to whichI have been giving less attention during my latest mandate. I know therehas been a lot of interesting work in development in the past, but I do not haveenough updated information to tell how things are at the moment.

- I think partnerships are always welcome. Regarding data, surveys, and politicalindicators, we definitely miss that. Sometimes we lack elements to act and definepUblic policies. Therefore, I think there should be a strategy or a plan in thisdirection. This partnership support would be extremely rich. I do not have anycriticisms regarding Unesco's work. My recommendation is that it should seekmore closeness with us. It is very constructive having Unesco close to theLegislative Power.

- I think it is feasible and important. As a matter of fact, when an internationalorganisation comes to the state, there is a whole appeal that is very important.And in the areas in which Unesco performs it is essential to seek partnershipsalso and mainly at the Legislative Assemblies. This is because sometimes thevery representatives of the people are not that sensitive.

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- In Brazil, in a general manner and also in the private sector, we do not have thesensitivity towards supportive actions or more aggressive participation in thesocial area aimed at social equality. I think we are still at a very incipient processof solving social problems. Undoubtedly, the contribution of international organi­sations continues to be very important and crucial.

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~ Representative Father Roque

Federal representative for the Workers Party (PT) of the state of Paraml, he isin his second mandate in the House of Representatives. A member of severalpermanent commissions of that House, his performance in the congress istargeted to the defence of human and social rights, as well as to the representationof interests connected with social movements, agriculture, rural policy, education,and rural unions.

Analysis of the interview

Being a left representative, it should be pointed out that he does not see Unescoas being elitist. Rather, he considers it a pluralist and democratic organisation,and recommends greater involvement in community projects and more actionstowards the interior. Although his level of specific knowledge is low, his perception ofthe institutional image of Unesco is good. The representative takes the opportunityto indirectly request Unesco's support on a meeting of community radio stationsin October, an educational experiment, and the construction of houses andcitizenship. He is a serious and devoted congressman, with whom Unesco canstrengthen bonds in view of his verbal willingness and little acquaintance withUnesco's work at the Congress.

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- To date, among all the bodies of the United Nations, I have one of the bestimpressions about Unesco. Perhaps the WHO and the FAO, and in third place,Unesco. I have great appreciation for Unesco's work. And I greatly use the dataprovided by Unesco pertaining to issues connected with education and, inparticular, human development in our country.

- I have much interest in the data on education, human rights, and environment.I vehemently congratulated this latest campaign for peace and against violence.However, I do not believe we are going to solve the problem of violence withcampaigns, but with social justice. Either we achieve social justice or we will nothave peace. I recall dearest Paul VI's saying that development is the new name forpeace in his famous letter.

- I cannot say it has been working to eradicate poverty and promote socialdevelopment. I honestly do not see how it has achieved anything. I think Unescois an important source for us. I believe we could make even better partnerships

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with Unesco, so that it could embrace certain causes we have in Brazil. But thiswould require much more personal contact with Unesco's staff. This way, I thinkit could help reduce poverty and inequalities. It could, for instance, bring successfulprojects and programs in education, especially of the masses, into this new issuewith which I am very much involved, social communication for the people. Thegoal is to make the people an agent of communication, an opinion-maker, and togive them command and acquaintance with social communication media.

- We are trying to host - we might even invite Unesco, should it accept it ­during the second semester of this year a Latin American seminar on freecommunication or community-interest radio stations. We are beginning toorganise it, and we could even establish a partnership with Unesco, because Ibelieve this matter will draw the attention of the whole Latin America. We haverepresentatives from all Latin America, and since the idea was launched lastweek, it has been drawing a lot of attention. I believe one of the greatest reformswe have to do in the country today is the reform of social communication. In thisregard, community radio stations are essential, since commercial or governmentalones do not serve the people. The people do not have access to broadcastings orto the operation of radio stations. And we want both. We want the people to havea word and to learn how to operate on this social communication medium. So, wewill try to get in contact with Unesco to request support on this meeting duringthe second semester. It should happen in October.

- I think Unesco's presence here is still very little known of. Also, I have not seengreat participation of Unesco in the House of Representatives. Not even in the ofCommission of Human Rights, where I have always seen their representatives. Inthe Commission of Education I hear very little about it, although lately I have notbeen very present in the commissions. But I would say we do not have muchacquaintance with it nowadays. I think the first thing it should do is to becomemore popular, to do what they are doing now, and to get in touch with us, becausewe are always very busy with things. I do not have the time to do this, except veryoccasionally on Thursday afternoons for a couple of hours. So, we do not havemuch time. Whenever a representative is contacted he responds. I did not know,for example, that Unesco Paris had a department on community radio stations.This is very good for us, and we will take advantage of it.

- I think we could have a permanent, more effective communication. I have anextraordinary assessor here in the area of education. He is constantly looking fornew data. If he could get information on Unesco's production, and if he could usethese data also in our advertisement material, electronic bulletin, or in any other

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media, we would be aware of Unesco's actions and its partnership possibilities. Inmy opinion, Unesco should function extraordinarily as an assessor, and provide uswith data and information on the most diverse fields and areas. Thus, we couldsurely work more efficiently on the issues approached by Unesco.

- I do not see any obstacles. I believe Unesco is a source. It is pluralist andencompasses all trends and ideologies. I have just written to CNBB (the NationalConfederation of Brazilian Bishops) and I will say the same to Unesco. Once in awhile we need a stronger stand in face of the great national problems or pressingsituations. It would not be a political or ideological stand, far from that. I do notwant that. But when there is a real problem, I would like Unesco to take a standand join us in search of solutions for that problem. I do not see any obstacles. Ithink its participation is even necessary. Unesco itself will gradually get to knowwhere the earth is fertile and results can be achieved. You will no longer behammering on cold iron.

- I wish, for instance, you could inform Unesco of a new educational experiencebeing carried out by the MST (the Brazilian Landless Movement). I think itdeserves a closer look. I wish you could carry out a study, an evaluation, or afollow-up and eventually support it, because this new educational method theyare implanting is a fully popular achievement. It is a unique experience in theworld. I have not seen anything like it so far. I have not heard of another, say,with the same dimension, depth, or novelty. They can do wonderful things.Another program being carried out in Porto Alegre is the ninety-day literacymethod. You could perhaps help all these literacy groups to get ahead. This waywe would have many things to develop.

- I think there are a thousand ways. Nowadays what we need most is a youthgroup, a more committed youth. Today, there is a problem in the Catholic Churchin Brazil. Practically everything falls into the 'ditch' of the Charismatic Movement.And this is not only in terms of the show. I think it alienates. Thus, we see religionserving as real opium for the people.

- I think you should really do what I call 'to set foot on the road'. You shouldspend at least 16 to 17 hours a day, like I do too. If you start off in a directionyou can get there. There are many secretariats of education with which you canwork, whether municipal or state, organisations such as Undime and themunicipal education secretariats.

- I do not see elitism at Unesco. But it definitely does not have its feet on the

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ground. I think it has the same virtues and vices of all UN agencies. All of themhave a lot of merits, but they also have flaws. What are the flaws? Usually theyturn local problems into global ones. Or different problems are treated the sameway, when there are countless factors leading things in one or another direction.This is the biggest problem. But at least they have the merit of acting. If you wantin-depth information on agriculture, hunger, or food, you refer to Fao; on globaleducation, you get Unesco; on children, there is Unicef; if I want data on health,I go to the WHO.

- Here is the question worldwide, either you openly take a critical standregarding neo-liberalism, and then you start thinking from a different perspective,or you naturally fall into it. Presently, there is no third way. Third way is in factan empty expression, is it not? It does not exist. It is an abstract concept yet tobe made concrete. I think Unesco, due to its worldwide scope and to the qualityof its technicians, could carry out pilot experiences and establish partnershipswith agencies that are trying to abandon this old model and seek other alternatives.For instance, one of the greatest problems here that is also a global problemcombines housing and education. You could turn the very construction of yourhouse a phenomenon, an educational fact in which you follow up the processyourself. I have an interesting experience to share. Since 1972 I have beenpermanently building houses, helping people acquire their houses, their residence.But this is carried out as a whole development process for the family, from theselection and first contacts and meetings to the definitive residence. And note thatwe have obtained interesting results on this. More than 1,500 houses were built inabout thirty years, especially in the states of Rio Grande do SuI and Parana. Wehave accomplished many things. I would not say 100%, because it is not real. Butthere has been a process of citizenship recovery. So, this would be the constructionof citizenship. I use this term precisely. It is the construction of citizenship, notsimply of a house.

- Education for citizenship. I think the culture of peace, ecology, and environmentare relevant issues today. I think you should put your feet on the ground. I wouldalso recommend a closer, more direct, and permanent relationship with congressmen.I have very little contact with Unesco's personnel.

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11 Representative Leo Alcantara

Elected federal representative of the Brazilian Social Democracy Party (PSDB) forthe state of Ceani, he is a businessman and a lawyer. He is in his first congressmandate and has an outstanding performance defending the improvement of thecountry's educational system, and also promoting initiatives to mobilise youths forthe prevention and combat of violence.

Analysis of the interview

The representative makes highly positive comments based on recent examples ofUnesco's actions, some of which he followed up closely. However, his perceptionof the institutional image is associated with an elitist concept of an organisation,distant from the priority of eradicating poverty. As a new generation congressman,he is undoubtedly an ally of Unesco's. Unesco should maintain a good relationshipwith him and obtain more circumstantial information about the social developmentprojects, especially because his constituency is located in one of the poorest statesin the country and is probably a young one.

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- Unesco has carried out several significant stUdies. I mention the case of theunderage, which I followed up, in the Federal District outskirts and in two otherstates. I followed up closely the stUdy about violence against youth because of myfriendship with Dr. Jorge Werthein and because it is an area in which I act verymUCh. I congratUlated Jorge for the wonderful work. It was also very well finishedup. The result of the study was turned into a book. It was perfect. I followed upthis work step by step, all along its development, and Unesco should really becongratulated.

- The culture of peace is comprehensive. It involves a great number of issues,and this is the main one. After that come human rights - which are includedsince in a state of peace nobody's rights will be violated - and violence in youth.These will all be encompassed by the culture of peace. The aids issue is alsobecoming prominent. It is being extensively debated nowadays. It is in thenewspapers almost everyday.

- The one I hear most about and that is most active is really Unesco. We also hearmuch about Unicef, but I think it acts in a different area. Unicef works more withchildren, and Unesco does not. It is a body whose scope is more comprehensive.

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And Dr. Jorge's dynamism, Unesco's representative in Brazil, has made itoutstanding. I do not know if this is because I have seen him here at the Houseof Representatives several times acting mainly in the area of human rights.He has always been present in the Commission of Human Rights. And I think thisinteraction has drawn attention to Unesco's work. But when we look at the areasof human rights and youth violence, the media is always highlighting Unesco's work.

- This partnership is important because the pUblic power needs to be warned onthe existing problems. And there is no better way than participating, by means ofpartnerships, research, and development. The research generates actions. Most ofthe times, pUblic power actions are appropriate and not Unesco's. It is Unesco'srole to advise, to do research, and to detect problems. And it is the pUblic power'srole to take action. Therefore, this is a necessary partnership.

- Constructive criticism, when it is not mere criticism, is very important. All thegovernments, and not only the Brazilian one, make mistakes mostly because theydo not know the problems. A government structure is such a heavy, complexthing that sometimes makes it difficult to locate where problems are. Hence theimportance of actions from bodies such as Unesco to draw attention and advise onproblems, so that the government can take action. When it is constructive,criticism is perfectly acceptable.

- This study on youth violence was carried out with the Ayrton Senna Instituteand, if I am not mistaken, with Getulio Vargas Foundation. It was an importantpartnership, because in a work like this the costs are very high. Thus, it isnecessary to share these costs with non-governmental bodies that have interest inhelping Brazil develop. In youth's case, it should be prepared in such a way that,by the time they go past this stage, they will have participated and will be ableto choose better living conditions. It is important to combine the efforts of theorganisations that work in the same area. Today, because of their broad penetra­tion, the NGOs work in different areas. This way, when Unesco begins to work ina given sector, human rights, for instance, it will encounter several NGOs workingin that sector with which it should make partnerships. I think this is valid.

- My assessment is that today it has more of an elitist work. I do not associateUnesco with the eradication of poverty. This could be my fault, since I have notbeen participating in all the processes. But Unesco works in another direction,and not with issues like poverty or eradication of poverty. After all, where doespoverty originate? Lack of education, health, and work, and increasing violence,this all leads to poverty. Therefore, it will eventually reach the eradication of

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poverty. But it is more connected with work lines towards future eradication ofpoverty. Today, I do not identify Unesco's work with poverty in particUlar.

- J can identify several congressmen participating in Unesco's work. This isimportant because we represent the people. So, we deal with many segments.Thus, we can bring the difficulties we have and take Unesco's actions to theseentities or to the population in general.

- It would be good. I do not know how Unesco could implement this. Perhapsnow with the help of congressmen. I believe it can. But how? By identifyingcongressmen who act in certain sectors. There are congressmen here who workin the area of education, others in the area of health, others in human rights, andothers with youth. So, all of this helps Unesco. If it could do this work - and I donot know how - it would be important even for us congressmen. 'Ye would bringwhat we do outside the legislative-congress activity. Outside the National Congresswe help the population in general, and particularly the poor, to have better days.This would be important for congressmen and also for Unesco, which could betterdivulge its name. But how do you do this? I believe yes, it would be worthwhile.I would surely endorse this. This partnership with Unesco would be done withbetter interChange, on a two-way road. The information both goes to Unesco andis brought to congressmen. It would be very important, either through e-mail orthrough personal contacts. Whatever the manner, it would be very interesting.

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7. Representative Geraldo Magela

A member of the Workers Party (PT), he is in his first mandate as federalrepresentative of the Federal District in the House of Representatives. He wasalso a district representative twice, and was elected president of the LegislativeAssembly. He was also deputy-governor in the Federal District and secretary ofHousing and Urban Development. He was recently chosen by his party torepresent it as candidate in the next elections (2002) for governor of the FederalDistrict. He is also the president of the Parliamentary Conference of the Americas .

Analysis of the interview

Although he admits having little specific acquaintance with Unesco's actions,the representative associates Unesco to the combat of poverty, and he identifiesactions connected with education and the historic-cultural heritage. His perceptionof the institutional image is excellent. As current president of the ParliamentaryConference of the Americas, a new partnership possibility with Unesco is open.Moreover, due to his availability and expressed interest, greater attention to himis recommended, especially because he is a potential next governor of the FederalDistrict.

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- The image I have is positive; it is the image of an institution that actually seeksto find a solution and not only to study the matters. So, in my opinion, there is acombination of intellectual work and practical work in order to overcome povertyat first, but also other difficulties encountered along the way. Therefore, in mypoint of view, it has a very positive image.

- I would not know how to do a comparative assessment, because I admit I havelittle information on Unesco's work in the rest of the world, in each country. So, Icannot make a comparison.

- My idea is of a work to eradicate poverty. That is the first idea I get. Unesco isconnected with the combat of poverty.

- What shows most is education and historic-cultural heritage. These two areasseem very prominent or more evident to me. Although I have some acquaintanceof actions in other areas, as a spectator I see the issues of education andpreservation of historic heritage as being more associated with Unesco's work.

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- I also have a positive assessment of the WHO. And since I am not an expert inthese areas, I am only going to express the notions I have. I think the WHO isvery much associated with the issue of health as a profession, but not in terms ofactions or global policies. UNDP also seems to me a distant, very technical, andlittle practical organisation. Now, Unicef is very present, at least to me, in myperception, just like Unesco. If you asked me about their magnitudes, I wouldsay Unicef and Unesco are at the same level. And the others are at a lower,smaller-scale level.

- As a matter of fact, I do not have deep knowledge of Unesco's actions. But if Ihad to make a comparison, I would say I perceive Unesco's performance in theprivate sector as more visible than in the pUblic sector. Regarding the preservationof historic heritage, I see a stronger relation with the pUblic sector. This isbecause usually there is a partnership between Unesco and preservation agenciesboth at state and national levels. Then, it becomes more noticeable. But I alsohave the perception that the partnerships with private initiatives are positive, too.Regarding preservation of the historic heritage, Unesco's action in Brazil isextremely important. In my opinion, if it were not for this action, we would havealready lost a great deal of our historic heritage. Thanks to Unesco's action, wehave managed not only to presenre, but also to recover much of our heritage.Therefore, I emphasise the great importance of this partnership.

- I believe that the partnership with the private sector, with the third sector, forthe combat of misery and poverty, for instance, is much more efficacious thanthat with the pUblic sector. I think third sector organisations are much moreefficacious, much more efficient in the combat of poverty than the pUblic power.Usually, there is a very intense and heavy mediation process in the pUblic powerthat does not exist in the third sector, or at least it happens on a lesser degree.Therefore, I consider this segment a very important area in which partnershipsshould be strengthened in order to overcome poverty. Another area in which thiscould be done, although I am not acquainted with it, is education, particularly inregard to illiteracy. There, in my opinion, the third sector can have a moreefficacious action than the pUblic sector.

- In fact, since the Congress is an instance for the elaboration of laws, and notfor execution or for the elaboration of policies, one of the strongest partnershipsto be established is the exchange of experiences, information, and technicalassessorship. In general, Parliaments deal with national issues and do not havean international, continental, or global perspective of the matters. As a rule, thisis what happens. ThUS, Unesco's relation with the Parliaments should allow for

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the exchange of information and assessorship. In some areas, institutions likeUnesco hold much more information, studies, and background than the technicalareas of the Congress. The Congress is very much targeted to the formulation oflaws, and sometimes it does not have a broad perception of the issues. So, thisexchange of information, of technical consultancy, and data is essential.

- Today we have a parliamentary commission in the Mercosul that congregatesparliamentarians from the countries that integrate it. I do not know exactly howthey have been working. But it seems to me that they are still at an initial stageof adapting laws and studying individual realities of member countries. I think itis possible to establish partnerships with the very Parliamentary Conference of theAmericas, just as it is feasible with other institutions.

- If we could have a partnership between the IDB, Mercosur, and Unesco, itwould be essential. The greatest problem with these institutions, the MercosulCommission and Copa, is that there is no funding source. They are very transient,having one or two irregUlar contributions. And then, it is difficult to establishpartnerships precisely because of the lack of financing. There should be a possi­bility for financial institutions to join these partnerships. We are creating parlia­mentary networks in the Copa: network for the combat of drug trafficking,network for studies about the Alca, environment network, health network,network for the eradication of poverty. However, we do not have the resources tofund the research, or to obtain information from all the American countries oneach of these topics, because we do not have the necessary structure. We cannotafford the required structure. Unesco could serve as a bridge in this process.

- Presently, we are discussing a permanent financing, but the decisions will onlybe made in 2002 and 2003. At this moment, the financing sources for Copa areonly occasional, just for the hosting of events. There is an intention to do thisprocess permanently, but it does not exist, yet.

- I think Unesco can join us in this essential exchange of information andexperiences, both in the Congress and in government mandates. Obviously, duringa government mandate it has the possibility of greater interface for generationand cooperation. When the government is deciding, it has the ability to develop amore direct relationship with Unesco. When congressmen are involved there canonly be an exchange of information. I do not have a specific work line here yet. Iam kind of a generalist congressman. I am a general physicist. I do not have aspecific line of action. But due to the presidency of Copa, I am much involved ininternational issues. And in this sense, I am certainly interested in the issues of

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drug trafficking, trade legislation, and economic cooperation. These are the areasin which I will work. Now, in the Federal District, we will basically work withpUblic policies targeted to youth, eradication of poverty, and education. In thefuture, because Brasilia is a historic-cultural heritage of humanity, it will havegreat interface with Unesco.

- In the last conference in Porto Rico the central theme was 'How to overcomepoverty in the Americas', with connections with the combat of traffic, foreigndebt, education, and economic cooperation. The guideline is to try and elaboratelaws in those areas for the countries. The central theme for the next conference isyet to be defined. It could be youth violence in the Americas, a general concern,but it could also be a debate on the implantation of Alca. And since we are notstrongly connected with the implementation of programs, we have to carry outsurveys and discuss theses.

- I think Unesco could establish a great partnership not only with the LegislativeAssembly, but also with its members, who deal with the issue of preservation ofhistoric-cultural heritage. In the specific case of Brasilia, I think Unesco has acritical role, and could establish a partnership for monitoring, legislative follOW-Up,and technical supervision of the registration. But there are other areas, too.Brasilia was the first city to combine efforts towards the eradication of povertywith education. The Programa Bolsa-Escola (school allowance program) is, in myopinion, another area of interface between Unesco and the Federal District wherethe Legislative Assembly can establish some kind of partnership. Regarding theNational Congress, I think Unesco could be very important in a partnership process,especially in this area of the legislation for the cultural heritage. We are nowdiscussing the legislation on this with the whole country; legislation to bring inmore money, more resources for these cities, and for the states that have citiesregistered as historic-cultural heritage. A relationship with Unesco could be ofgreat help.

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8. Representative Feu Rosa

He is now in his second mandate as a federal representative. A member of theBrazilian Social Democracy Party (PSDB), he represents the state of EspiritoSanto, where he was also a state representative. An engineer, university professor,and businessman, he is a member of several permanent commissions in the Houseof Representatives, where he has had an outstanding performance in the areas ofeducation, health, social security, science, and technology.

Analysis of the interview

The representative has an excellent perception of Unesco's institutional image.Part of the content of his statement is dedicated to the issue of micronutrients.He also considers it essential to promote quality education. Therefore, he proposesthat Unesco get engaged in this effort. He is a serious and devoted congressmanwith whom Unesco should strengthen cooperation and exchange bonds. Hisspecific knowledge of Unesco's actions is good, but it could be a lot better.

Partly edited content

- I have the best image possible of Unesco both at national and global levels. It isan organisation that has a lot of respect and whose performance is competent. Itgets engaged in good programs and so far has had no scratches on its image. Ithink its image is very good.

- As far as I know, in the specific case of Brazil, Unesco is more connected witheducation. I do not know if this is because, historically and along the developmentof its projects with the ministries, it is always connected with the Ministry ofEducation. Ever since I heard about Unesco here in Brazil, prominent peoplehave associated it with education and also culture, peace, arts etc. Now regardingthe eradication of poverty, I do not see much of a connection with Unesco. In theareas where I work, Unesco is more involved with education, and on a higherlevel: professors, masters, PhDs, people connected with Pedagogy, and so on.I think Dr. Jorge is new in Brazil, but he has been following up some kind ofagenda with Unesco. I got to know something important when he started to acthere. Unesco is involved in the combat of violence and in programs for cultureand peace at school and ministry levels. Then, I think, among all the issuesapproached by Unesco and not disregarding education and culture, it should asmuch as possible combine education and culture with human rights, the cultureof peace, and the combat of violence, in particular with youths. This is a very

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difficult thing. I think these issues would greatly increase Unesco's respect. Theywould produce a lot more results. Unesco is already seen as being a great mentorin the area of education in Brazil.

- In my understanding, Unesco's performance in the eradication of poverty is notvery visible. People on a higher education level, who have titles, who are mastersor doctors must know of Unesco's existence. But I do not think they have thisperception outside mass media. Now, there is something I have been involved infor a long time - and later on I would like you to take these documents with you.I have been a researcher for a long time, and I think there is a wrong culture inBrazil that says 'Education for all'. I think you should always work for generalisededucation. But in Brazil, governors and businessmen are the ones who most neededucation. And Why is that? Because we have a poor management. There is a lackof knowledge on how to manage programs, including educational ones, that makeseducation much weaker than in more developed countries. I am sure to tell youthis. I have been working for four years on the issue of salt in Brazil. There is anew sickness, the goitre, which is very serious. And it is easy to eradicate this,because 95% of our salt comes from the state of Rio Grande do Norte, and theother 5%, from the state of Rio de Janeiro. All the salt in Brazil comes from thesetwo origins. Well, with all the Brazilian educational apparatus - there are anumber of doctors, and the very Ministry of Health, Minister Sena, is a doctorin Economy - we do not have the educational competence to manage a programto eradicate endemic goitre. What can we expect of the other issues? This is themicronutrients problem. I have got this problem about soil minerals, which is thelatest information from research. I think education in Brazil is extremely important,just like in any other place. But Brazil's efficiency on education is very low,because our population is very weak in biochemical terms to receive all the effortsbeing promoted through education.

- A great part of Unesco's efficacy in education depends on the improvement ofthe biochemical quality of our people. I have this conviction. There is a lot ofinformation regarding this in my work.

- Endemic Goitre, iron, vitamin A. It is ridiculous. Every two months the mediaannounces the lack of vitamin A and iron. And we know how harmful this can be.How can Unesco expect to educate the Brazilian people when they still lackiodine, iron, and vitamin A?

- I think WHO was right on that. It cannot be in the hands of only one or twocountries, in a report produced in 180 or 200 countries around the world.

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It obviously has to adapt to the peculiarities of each country. Now there is onevery important thing that involves Unesco, the WHO/Opas, and also Unicef. Thethree of them are known for their prompt work with the Pastoral da Crianc;a (theBrazilian children shepherding foundation) and with the municipal secretariatsof health. But nowadays Unesco is expanding its line of action with education toencompass violence, peace etc. However, it is more popular among the more elitistlayers of society. Not Unicef, Opas, or WHO, because they deal with basic issuesfor the human being, such as assistance to children, to pregnancy, and in somecases even to the mother. So this makes their work more visible. I would say thatbecause of this basic, elementary work with the Pastoral da Crianc;a, with themunicipal secretariats of health, and poverty-stricken towns, among Opas, Unicef,and WHO, the most famous is Unicef. Opas works more with planning. As I see it,Unicef, in execution, is more prominent in this whole environment than Unesco.

- From what I understand, the culture of Unesco in Brazil cannot have the sameapproach as Unicef. And since it is more connected with education, regardless ofthe level, it should work in two areas: on one side, private organisations and somerelated NGOs. It could intensify and stimulate this area, because it would thenraise its educational-cultural standard. On another side, the Secretariats of Education,in order to at least improve the management of the existing secretariats, both atstate and municipal levels. Without interfering with local peculiarities, Unescocould easily help the process of managing education in Brazil.

- Here at the House of Representatives everything is more complicated, becausewe do not spend much time here. But I think Unesco could try and develop anissue, for instance, within the work being carried out by the representative. Iwould say that today Unesco is quite entangled with the Commission of Education.It has brought good contributions to the Special Commission of Public Securityand to the eradication of violence. It has also helped the Commission of HumanRights on a lesser degree than the two others mentioned. And it has worked onthe general culture of the House regarding the problems of our youths andadolescents. However, since this is a very disorganised environment, wherepractically no representative spends twenty-four net hours a week in the House,Unesco could develop some projects with interested representatives and senators,with the House as an institution. If not with only one congressman, with a groupfrom a certain region as an institution. It would have greater repercussion. Forinstance, we have several colleagues, one from the state of Piaui, another fromAcre, and another from Rondonia etc. You can see that we lead such a routine,yet we cannot convey here the live forces of our mandates. Our mandate is at theconstituency. If Unesco would then contact these regional groups of representatives

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and work with them, its work would have more penetration. It would be essential,and we would all be happy with Unesco's respectability. The new Unesco directoris very dynamic. Dr. Jorge is very dynamic.

- The Legislative Assemblies could also be an alternative. I think the CityCouncils of great towns are also very important. The Assemblies and the Councilscould serve as an instrument for Unesco to perform a great part of its mission ofeducating the Brazilian elites. It would be education not only of children and ofthe country's human basis, but also of the elites. Unesco's way of working is good,we can learn with it.

- There should be education for the leading elites, because in Brazil every goodinfluence is welcome. We are going through a very critical period, with ethical,moral problems etc. And when Unesco's or UN's standards are present in anagreement or partnership with any of these basic bodies - Legislative Assembly,Municipal or State Secretariat - they can guide the conduction of the project.This way, they will be educating those elites that compose the local, state, andnational political framework. Unesco could manage to get into the representatives'constituencies, and use the representatives, the councillors, and municipal secre­taries as instruments with which to develop its policies. This is a medium tolong-term issue. It could help a great deal. Obviously, this also depends on thelevel of investment, but Unesco can foster investments at the very constituencylevel. I am not aware of the amount of investments in these agreements betweenUnesco and the federal government, how much each of them puts in. But thiscould be done with the states and cities more often. Today, at least in EspiritoSanto, I do not hear much about Unesco; and at state and municipal levels,almost nothing. I hear of it more often at the university where I teach.

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9. Representative Esther Grossi

Federal representative for the Workers Party (PT), she is leading a congressmandate for the second time, representing the state of Rio Grande do SuI.A professor and researcher, she was municipal secretary of Education in PortoAlegre. Her performance in the House of Representatives has been characterisedby the promotion of pUblic policies for adult literacy and social rights for theAfrican-Brazilian population.

Analysis of the interview

The representative disagrees with Unesco for having awarded a prize to agovernmental project on adult literacy. This is understandable since it comesfrom an opposition parliamentarian. Despite that, she does not refrain frompraising Unesco and attributing it institutional role and credibility greater thanthose of the very Ministry of Education. However, her advice that Unesco shouldmaintain political independence from the federal government should be taken.Attention should also be given to her warning that Unesco's presence in theHouse commissions might be somewhat innocuous, given the rules of thecongress works.

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- She has a positive image of an organisation that could positively influenceeducation in the world.

- I think we fantasise a little beyond reality. In spite of knowing Unesco, I stillget surprised. I know for instance that the funds are not very large, still I amsurprised. The other day I caught myself referring to Unesco, thinking aboutUnesco. I do not remember what situation it was, but I experienced this feeling:Unesco is really an anchor. Although the resources are not that large, we canperceive the power, the weight when Unesco states something. It has credibility.

- It is even greater in terms of its institutional image than the Ministry ofEducation. It is more important as an opinion-maker in this sense. I have nodoubt about it, hence its enormous responsibility.

- In this sense it commits itself with the policies in force. But I do not thinkit should do this. I think it should also be a power to make pressure over thegovernments. I think that international organisations confuse non-interference

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with party politics for exemption regarding government actions. Then, bothUnesco and Unicef get sterile criticism. Thus, a sunrey is carried out and acomes up: while Unesco says the situation is appalling, it awards prizes to

programs of this government. This one was very tough, because this is an areaI am very acquainted with. So, while this happens, Unesco is a partner in theGempa project, for instance. It has always been willing to collaborate.

- Today this third segment has more chances to change. I think that governmentsare excessively tied to a given policy. Now, Unesco should move out of promptcases. Experience itself is not enough. We need proposals arising from experience,yet underpinned by a solid theoretical framework. They did a work with someNGOs in the interior, I do not know where, which was interesting. But it looks abit like that commercial from the Bamerindus bank, "People who really achieve".They convey the idea that if everyone could do it, we would all be saved. Butindeed artiCUlation, hard and in-depth work, and research are required.We cannot improve education without a really strong investigation basis.

- I have a friendship bond with the people from Unesco. But unfortunately I donot remember. I have not even read Unesco's documents appropriately. Forinstance, the Unesco's document with which I got acquainted in Chile is ananalysis of cultural aspects. It appears to me that when you commission expertstUdies, such as that document in particular, they show interesting and importantthings. But I am not sure. It seems there is a certain discrepancy regarding whatUnesco really does to implement them. For instance, culture and education to meare closely related. And I think Jorge has been perceptive enough to see this. Inour literacy programs Unesco has always helped with the cultural part and withthe travelling. Unesco supported the trip Montevideo of the first group of womenwho went through the literacy program. Perhaps the action should be more significant.Instead of speckled actions, there should be incentives to many other actions.

- And at the same time, I think Unesco can give visibility. It also has this roleof giving visibility to non-prompt and isolated actions, but... There are severalsclerotic universities, but there are some speckles of good actions. So, Unescoshould find the places where interesting things are being done and exhibit themin the press or in the media, in order to inspire many other actions. It could havea chain effect, because good works at universities are already rare. Assessmentssuch as those of MEC's have some kind of distortion. They approach morebureaucratic aspects. Thus, I think Unesco could develop this broader,worldwide perspective of culture.

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- By constantly highlighting the positive side of things. Usually Unesco appearsin the media showing how bad the quality of living, life expectancy, violence,unemployment, and infantile work are. Well, what then? In addition to that, wehave to know the reality about it. But then, how can we transform it? It is notUnesco's role to transform it. But it should be fostering those really broad anddeep movements independently of the government. This is the problem: if it keepsflattering the government, even to a short extent, it will end up compromisingitself with all of it. That episode of the solidarity literacy was terrible. I can say itbecause I was invited. Marcos Rolim would receive the SebastHlo Salgado prize,and I did not know that Solidarity Literacy... I was in shock and I fell intodisgrace, because I knew how much that would slow down the movementof adult literacy in Brazil.

- It seems to me that Unesco undoubtedly plays the best role among the others.But I would not say it is the best, because it can still be better targeted. However,it is better than Unicefs, especially in recent times. I think Unicef has had a moreprominent position. But as of a few years ago, maybe two or three years, I feelUnicef a little under the shade. I do not know what happened. But it does nothave the same force it used to.

- By acting in the area of Education and Culture, it really helps, at least at mediumand long terms, to reduce poverty. But you do not see very clear evidence. Maybethe situation has served that purpose. I do not know. This is the story: I think thegreatest responsibility for this poor distribution lies in the governmental policies,in their orientation. And then, since Unesco does not want to be political, I thinkit should try and find a subtle and intelligent way to do it. Perhaps throughresearches. I do not believe we can tackle the issue at a gut level only throughindirect means. If Unesco could provide elements to lead the way, either throughstUdies, researches, or so, I think it would be more productive than just presentingor pinpointing carried out actions. I think it should do more advertising. And nobetter way than to give people the chance to think about it, obviously upon facts,and then generate solutions. Of course this is difficult. People do it separatelythrough private initiatives. But the basic misguidance of the government leads tothis bad distribution. It is due to the nature of the political-economic orientationadopted by the government.

- One alternative could be not letting it be isolated in Brazil. Unesco couldinterfere precisely above these governments. I mean, it mentions several of them.It should have a really centralised work. It can show this kind of gap to severalgovernments.

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- J have been seeing Unesco in the House of Representatives, particularly inpUblic hearings at the Commission of Education, where I work. I think that is themost innocuous thing in this country. They always choose to give the word to allthe sectors, but this is conditional. In the end, the government's official bodies arealways there. And since those hearings are structured as presentations and not asdebates, with subsequent interventions by order, and no replies allowed, they havevery little penetration, very little effect. Unesco is almost always invited. Perhapsthis is why its performance is so low. I remember a meeting once between Unescoand some congressmen - there were two meetings, I think - to set up a group tobe more connected with Unesco regardless of the commission they belonged to.Perhaps this should go on.

- This Congress is tied to the Executive. But these meetings were held preciselyto find out the kind of interaction Unesco could have with the Congress. We hadone. I remember quite well a meeting at the House of Representatives. I thinkwith Dr. Frederico Mayor. I think he was the General Director. We even haddinner afterwards, but it ended right there. An articulation was taking place rightthere and then. I think it becomes very unilateral when Unesco only comes uponinvitation to a pUblic hearing. Unesco could take the initiative, too. This caseseemed to me the ideal initiative, but it did not last.

- I am not sure about Unesco's capacity. It is not in all the states, is it? Even ifit were global, if it had this approach of presenting broad and efficacious perspec­tives, I am not sure it would be necessary to go to every Legislative Assembly.Perhaps a good Commission on Education and Culture in a Legislative Assembly,having Unesco provide visibility to the work and carry out the appropriate super­vision of the area would be a solution. What is to be supenrised today in the areaof Education? It has to do school efficiency, students being able to learn. Theschool has to teach. The Legislative Power has two functions: to legislate and tocontrol. Let's suppose that a Legislative Assembly is carrying out a good program;and their function has more to do with controlling, because legislation is verycentralised. Giving visibility to this program would be interesting. In general, thecommissions do very little in this area.

- I state that Unesco is greater than MEC in terms of social representativeness.And the fact that it is not a party-oriented institution gives weight to its actionsand statements. I believe that if its scope is Short, it had better concentrate it onEducation and Culture.

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,I O. Representative Maria Elvira

Federal representative for the Brazilian Democratic Movement Party (PMDB),she is in her second mandate at the House of Representatives, representing thestate of Minas Gerais. She was twice a representative for the same state and alsogovernment deputy-leader. Member of several permanent commissions at theHouse, her parliamentary performance is characterised by the defence of human,social, and women's rights, as well as by the improvement of the country'seducational system.

Analysis of the interview

The representative has a good perception of the institutional image of Unescoand demonstrates reasonable acquaintance with specific actions, which couldnonetheless be improved. She is a parliamentarian with good mobilisation skills,with whom keeping a good relationship is recommended. Her opinion that theculture of peace deserves more efforts from Unesco and the same regardingpartnerships with the National Congress and the states should be emphasised.

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- I have a good image of Unesco, because it is concerned with the issues ofeducation, culture, and arts. And it is an important body of the United NationsOrganisation on this global effort to bring countries together and work towardsdemocratic, long-lasting values of great importance for the world and the planet.I met a director from Unesco when I was working as director of the InternationalPublic Relations Association (IPA). He was a Swiss man working in Paris. Butit was through Jorge, here in Brasilia, that I could perceive the consistent,permanent, continuous, deliberate, and planned work, seeking to integrateUnesco with the Brazilian society. In this case, here in the capital of the RepUblic.I attended the award hosted by Unesco, and I found it extremely significant.I could see Unesco's support in the pUblishing of works and in researchesinvolving, for instance, the issue of violence on TV; violence as a form of culturalpressure. The culture of violence in our country and in the world demands fromsociety efforts at schools, in the media, and from the pUblic opinion, in order tocreate a culture of peace. Unesco supported this concern. There is a commissionin the Senate presided by Senator Pedro Simon. I also brought this idea to theCommission of Education in here, of which I was president. I could see Unesco'ssupport to important initiatives. I had the opportunity to make social contacts insome meetings hosted by Unesco's representative in his house. He had important

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groups over, connected to the Itamaraty and segments of the National Congress.I get the impression of a very proactive and dynamic work being carried out byUnesco's office in Brasilia.

- Among all of those around, it seems to me that Unesco is more active, at leasthere in Brasilia. I have participated in meetings in the health area, in events atthe Ministry of Health with the World Health Organization. They even have ahead office here in Brasilia where we have been for events. We had a few contactswith Unifem through Branca Moreira Alves. Just today she sent me a brochurethat said beauty is citizenship too. Meaning women should take care of themselves.I know these bodies are around, but I am closer to Unesco. It appeals more to me.I observe it more. Perhaps that is why my assessment of it is more positive.

- No prejudice. The partnerships are important. The point is that Unesco's badgeor name on any promotion or pUblication gives great credibility, as if it wereofficial. I think this much is already significant. Now picture this combined withsome technical part, with financial resources, and with a lecturer invited byUnesco to give a course or a seminar. I think this is very important.

- I have a less broad view on this one. I do not have many cases to mention, butI think it is extremely important too. Today, the third sector is at the gut level,it is prominent, it means pro citizenship movement, it is society getting involvedwith its problems. It is very important that Unesco also give support and providefunds to these organisations, whether in the areas of women, children,adolescents, health, or culture.

- I think everyone who strives to bring information or light into a debate ordiscussion, information on pUblic policies, on ways, on alternative solutions forBrazilian problems, mainly those connected to poverty and misery and lack ofdevelopment, is always welcome. We cannot give up Unesco's work.

- I see the issue of the culture of peace in partiCUlar. I do not see any otherorganisation concerned with this. If we talk about aids, for instance, there areother organisations taking care of it. If I talk to you about human rights, we willfind other bodies working on that. The culture of non-viOlence, for example, isimplicit in the media or in the culture, in the cultural expressions of the people.This is a throbbing issue. And in my opinion Unesco should embrace it and turnit into an emblem. I also think that issues connected to education and environmentcould simultaneously be dealt with. PresenTation of the environment is basicallya matter of education. Although there are other NGOs concerned with the issue,

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this is a matter survival of the planet. And it has everything to do with educationand the culture of preservation. Cultural issues should be intensified. And thiswould include the culture of peace, of non-violence, environment preservation;quite current, necessary, and expressive issues.

- Regarding the partnerships between Unesco and the National Congress, I thinkthe greater the number, the better. They should continue. The culture of peacerequires a permanent work: events, didactic materials, brochures, interchangewith other countries; whatever can be done to make society reflect, think over,press for, demand authority measures, demand a change of behaviour from themedia, and humanise culture. This seems to be significant, very important forUnesco.

- I think it can bring the issues. For instance, Unesco pays a visit, launches acampaign, invites the states into partnerships, and mobilises efforts in thenational territory. It is hard work, it is tough, and it is a burden. But I think oneof Unesco's roles is to bring issues into discussion, both with society and theCongress, and schedule or reschedule them. If they realise it has not been enough,they should repeat it over and over, until they achieve their goal. It is importantthat it has a guideline.

- I think that with the Parliamentary Fronts, Commissions, and congressmeninterested in specific issues connected to those proposed by Unesco. When youhost an event, you are drawing attention to an issue, to something of interest.You launch the issue and try to penetrate the legislative and social spheres usingthe media. This is all very important. For example: last year we went to theMinistry of Health to propose an event on youth pregnancy. Nobody had donesuch an event in Brazil, yet. We did it, the female bench, the Ministry of Health,and the Opas. There were authorities from all over the world to show how theyare tackling this problem in each country. In Brazil there are pregnant girls attwelve years of age. And the number of pregnancies is increasing in this agerange, putting at risk the lives of the mother and the child. Not to mention theeconomic losses in the country or the damages to the youth's life, who often givesup the studies to take care of the child.

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I I. Representative Laura Carneiro

Current president of the Social Security Commission of the House ofRepresentatives, she is a member of the Liberal Front Party (PFL). She waselected federal representative for the second time, representing the state of Rio deJaneiro. She was also elected councillor of Rio de Janeiro City Council twice.A lawyer, she occupied the positions of municipal secretary of Social Developmentand secretary of Special Projects of Rio de Janeiro City Hall. Her congressperformance emphasises the issues connected to health and social assistance

Analysis of the interview

The perception of the institutional image expressed by the representative isexcellent. In her opinion, the combat of violence, and the promotion of educationshould deserve more efforts from Unesco. Unesco to her is more known by itsactions as a producer of information and reports, but she does not make specificreferences. She agrees that Unesco should participate in the Brazilian pUblic lifewith criticisms and assessments. According to her, by working with federalrepresentatives, Unesco can achieve greater penetration. She criticises Unescofor working too much in the Commission of Education of the House ofRepresentatives, when, in her understanding, it should work more with thecommission over which it presides. She also recommends more advertisingas she considers that there is a 'communication deficiency'.

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- The image I have of Unesco's work in Brazil is the best possible. Undoubtedly,to date we only have good references. The image is good, it is great.

- I think it needs broader advertising. People know about Unesco's work eitherbecause they know Jorge Werthein, or they integrate the Commission of SocialSecurity, or they are somehow connected with the areas of education and socialassistance. But I am not sure this is a general notion in the Congress. I do notthink so.

- In Brazil, two issues are primary to me: the combat of violence, which is anextremely serious social reality, associated to drugs and many other things; andthe specific issue of education, of course. Education and social assistance combinedcould even help the prevention of violence and social eXClusion in the world welive. These are the most important issues to me.

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- I do think it has a communication deficiency. They do not show what they aredoing. I do not know how they could do this: e-mail, or participation in theDisque-Fome (Dial Hunger) line of the Ibase, or partnerships. There are severalcongressmen here promoting discussions and working. I do not quite know howthey do it internally in the organisation. But in view of Unesco's significance, Ithink they should do more advertising on the programs that can be accessed. Wecan include it in the web page of the Commission of Social Security if Unescowills. We are available.

- The agreements between Unesco and the federal government, the states, andcity halls never show up. I think it is good to work with the pUblic sector, but ithas its own investments. And I think there are a lot of serious people workingand willing to produce, but they do not produce due to the lack of resources.The pUblic power has other means of obtaining resources that the assistance,philanthropic, and charity initiatives do not. This is obviously much more difficult.There has to be more control, because there is a great deal of corruption.

- I think it is good to work with civil organisations and NGOs. Now, you have tocheck them out, because even Unesco can develop projects with them. It canchoose this or that body to develop a given project.

- Cicad, which is an agency acting in the area of drugs, is starting to do a good work.We are beginning to establish important partnerships not only with the Congress,but also with the federal government. I think several partnerships can beestablished. I think Cicad is already establishing them, and some other bodies, too.

- Unicef's image is infinitely greater than Unesco's, because their advertising isabsolutely broader. This is not publicity. When they sell Christmas cards at theend of the year, they are also promoting their image. If Unesco opens up a linesuch as the Disque-Fome it will be at once advertising itself and contributing forthe eradication of poverty.

- UNDP has several great programs in progress, partiCUlarly in the area ofenvironment. In the programs of the Ministry of the Environment and of Ibama

(the Brazilian Institute of Environment Protection) the main technicians arefrom UNDP. They also have a significant performance in the area of cities.Their greatest visibility is in this area. Of course, both Opas and WHO haveanother kind of know-how. We use the WHO as an information source. Nobodythinks about programs with WHO in the area of health care. If you want tocheck on WHO's data or resolutions, what does it say? It is another style.

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- I think Unesco is much more recognised for its actions than for the informationit produces.

- It is necessary that international bodies remain in Brazil. The country obviouslyneeds them. Rates of poverty, malnutrition, illiteracy, domestic violence, violenceagainst women, personal violence, homicides, there are five hundred reportsshowing our deficiencies.

- It is good to have criticisms, assessments, and country rankings. It is important,even because Unesco is not a simple organisation. It is connected to the UnitedNations Organisation, of which we are members, right? We are part of them. Sothis is also internal criticism. If you do not have a comparison basis, you do notsee where you stand. The countries are developing, but there are sectors in whichwe are retrograding.

- Unesco works too much in the Commission of Education. I think it couldwork on the web page, or in our journal, if it wishes to. We can think aboutjoint projects, or even seminars in the area of social assistance. Now we havean interesting work going on in a critical area in Brazil: health education.We will carry out this work together with the Education Council. What is the roleof the resident doctor in Brazilian health? To what extent do these professionals,bearing resumes and scholarships, take on the role of a doctor without gettingpaid for it? We have submitted a project on this matter. We have decided tocreate a special subcommission on medical education. Unesco could, forinstance, provide all the financial support for this SUbcommission. It could bringinformation from researches and concrete actions.

- I think Unesco will have more penetration in the country as it establishespartnerships with federal representatives, because they have the contacts.I think it is also important to have a relation with the mandates and with thecommissions. This is a process. If you establish a good connection with theCommission of Security, for instance, or if Unesco is going to work with thisSubcommission of Health Education, it will surely establish a closer relationwith the representatives of that commission, and this will benefit the country.

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12. Representative Nelson Marchesan

Elected five times federal representative for the state of Rio Grande do SuI (RS),he is a member of the Brazilian Social Democracy Party (PSDB). He was alsoelected state representative twice, and also a councillor in the city of Santa Maria(RS). He was president of the House of Representatives and government leader inthe House. He also occupied the positions of state secretary of Work and SocialAction and national secretary of Communications. His congress performance hasbeen prioritising issues connected to health and education.

Analysis of the interview

The representative has a great image of Unesco. He makes several specificreferences, demonstrating to have an ongoing relationship with Unesco, both ineducation and health. He is very convincing in his defence of Unesco's role as thebearer of international experiences that aggregate value to parliamentary debateson pUblic policies for the social field. Regarding the partnership with the NationalCongress, besides praising and endorsing it, he offers his dynamic support and hiscontacts with the new president of the House of Representatives. He is a seriousand devoted congressman, of strategic importance, whom Unesco cannot give up.

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- I had an opportunity, which perhaps other congressmen did not have, to getin touch with ambassador Jorge Werthein. I consulted with him and had hiscooperation in actions in the area of education. I can tell I was positivelysurprised by Unesco's willingness, through its representative, to collaborate andcontribute by means of studies and exchange of experiences with other peoplewho solved their problems regarding some aspects of education. And Unesco'sparticipation allowed for the strengthening of our programs, and encouraged usto remain on the path we were treading. And this surely accelerated the progressof some processes. Unesco's opinion is taken seriously precisely due to thisassessment it does of experiences around the world. My opinion about the wayUnesco carries out its work is very favourable. Certainly there are other equallyimportant aspects.

- In my point of view, Unesco's work is highly significant in that it brings apanoramic view of the world, of the major problems, and of the several successfulways to solve them in one country or another. ThUS, when transmitting andendorsing these evaluations based on its conceptions, capacity, and respectability,

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it stimulates shortcuts in processes that would otherwise demand much more timeto be implanted without the information obtained with Unesco's help. On the otherhand, it also stimulates creative initiatives by reporting on how other countriesare proceeding. Based on this jUdgement, I recommend that Unesco shouldcontribute, on the one hand, with its panoramic view of the world and, on theother, with the high consideration that it enjoys. As a result, the measures it helpsto implement, or advises on and endorses can be expedited. I think this is fantastic.

- I have become a little more concerned with education and health, and haveperformed quite a lot in this field. I see, for instance, that Brazil is makingprogress with the SUS, the Pab, pharmaceutical assistance, and remedy policies.And Unesco also helped on this. I was president of the Parliamentary InvestigationCommission (CPI) on Remedies, and we had a meeting at Unesco's head officewhere we got acquainted with significant experiences around the world. Seeingthis was surely important to me. Also in health, with the Programa Renda Minima(minimum income program), a project of mine that became Law no. 9533, we hada seminar with Unesco's participation. It brought experiences from Argentina andMexico. I could see a fantastic work in these two sectors. I think we still have along way to go, but we definitely took some important steps. We still have a lotto improve in the defence of the environment and in other sectors of Braziliansociety. I would not give up either of these sectors. I could not determine apriority. I am giving priority to health and education at this moment, becauseit is where I can most perform. But there certainly are other sectors still to beprioritised in Brazil.

- We can eradicate poverty by doing a better distribution of wealth and income.We still have a lot of measures in the country that concentrate income. But wecannot possibly achieve an ideal distribution of income if we do not developeducation, a major instrument for better distribution of income. I would say 70%of social inequalities occur because of children and youth exclusion from school,lack of professional qualification, lack of basic education etc. We are implementingprojects in Brazil that aim at distributing part of the income. But they also targetimprovements to and universalisation and democratisation of education. This iscritical. Now, I think there are other important programs and measures, such asthe agrarian reform, the distribution of land, credit to micro and small businessmen,increase and generation of employment, improvement of sanitary conditions,popular housing etc. In my understanding, Unesco is more associated witheducation and health programs. I do not see Unesco getting involved with theagrarian reform. Moreover, until recently it was a politically complex, dense, andemotional issue. Today, thanks to God, this issue is being tackled from a more

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practical approach. It is much easier to buy land than to dispossess it. We used topay a fortune to dispossess land, causing emotional disputes, and involving severalinstitutes. Buying is easier. And we do not necessarily have to renounce the rightto dispossess large unproductive pieces of land, which I think should continue. Incertain areas where unproductivity is not characteristic, we could certainlyacquire land through purchase instead of dispossession. It would be less traumatic,faster, more efficient, more economic, and by all means recommendable.

- What I have found in the partnerships between Unesco and the government,both in the areas of education and health, was a complementary, necessary,requested, and well done participation. Their purpose is to cooperate, to makeavailable experience and knowledge. I would say Brazil had already been seekingto achieve that purpose. And this accelerated it, helped it. Now, regarding theNGOs I have no knowledge. I have no means to assess how this experience can beused. But I have no doubt that in many segments there are significant statementsabout Unesco really transferring experiences to NGOs. This creates what I callshortcuts and promotes in-depth studies to bring information on how othersocieties have been solving these problems.

- In regard to some matters, the European experience is of little use for us. Ithelped with remedies due to Brazil's significance. It is one of the great nationsthat sells and buys remedies, one of the most important. Thus, the Europeanexperience with policies and prices of remedies was useful for us. In the sphereof education, European problems are totally different. They do not have illiteracyor children out of school anymore, the kind of poverty we have. They do nothave much experience on that. But Argentina and Mexico do have someexperience, and other countries such as China, India, Pakistan etc. can sharetheir experiences with us.

- I do not know much about the work of international organisations. I see Unicefacting, but I do know quite know its work. I hear it is very noble and obviouslybeneficial, but I could not go any further. I also see Fao a little distant. It actsmore like a transmitter of information. It certainly has recorded some advances,but I do not see any transmission of technology by them. Perhaps this is not itsfunction. Anyway, it tries to gather data and figures and draw attention to hungerand the ways to eradicate it. I think the issue of hunger is closely related to thedistribution of wealth, and also to education. Countries with high education ratesdo not have many problems connected to hunger and distribution. This is onemore datum. Here in Brazil, Ipea has helped us clearly understand the impor­tance of education. That is why I consider it the priority of priorities. On the

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other hand, UNDp, for instance, is another organisation that develops an interestingresearch and evaluation work. I could not tell by the data collected by UNDp, butI have made use of them, of IDH's, etc.

- As for the World Bank and the BID, I think these banks have evolved a greatdeal. In my understanding, the World Bank had very wrong policies. And there isevidence that some countries have failed. I think the most recent and apparentsuccess is here in Brazil. There are no universal rules. I think these institutionsmake a mistake when they are tied to a formula. washington's consensus, forinstance. You have California with energy problems, and you have the Brazilianproject. I think these organisations have a great responsibility on this: they havenot been humble enough to exchange ideas. In Brazil there were many bodiesdenouncing the lack of energy. I remember the time when Cesar Cals and CamiloPena, from the state of Minas Gerais, announced it. But there was never any helpfrom these banks. Rather, there was privatisation, "Let's do this and that". I thinkthese banks have a lot to learn in terms of the exchange of ideas. They haveformulas and many times, consciously or not, some of them also favour theinterests of sponsors and great investments. I think these banks should do amea culpa in order to help countries get rid of it. Our country definitely has acontribution to give. And although they have little to give, there is no reason tobring in a strange, foreign formula and try to apply it to people who think andreact differently. Of course I am not going to blame the World Bank for ourmiseries. But many times their remedies were bitter and the results were notachieved. If the remedy is bitter and the results are good, it is OK. But when theremedy is bitter and it brings negative effects, there is no use in it.

- I think we should talk about this. I think it is positive. I am highly favourableof Unesco's participation with the Legislative Power. The Legislative Power isessentially an institution for debates, studies, and opinion-making. Here in theHouse of Representatives and in the Senate there are commissions that encompassan enormous stock. And Unesco's presence is always important, bringing lecturers,providing support, sharing experiences, and proposing statements. The presenceof Ambassador Jorge Werthein here has been very useful. In my opinion, hisvision is very interesting. This is important. I am willing to help on thisinterchange, and so are the president of the House and the presidents of thecommissions. This is extremely important. I think we still have problems inhealth, education, work, eradication of poverty, and social security. We stillhave a long way to go. We have made a lot of progress on some points. Regardingthe aids issue, we have already made great progress. Today we can even exchangeexperiences. As to the remedies problem, we have also made great advancements.

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And unpretentiously, with the strong support of the CPI, we denounced the opposingcartel. I mean, some multinational companies did not want generic remedies to beproduced here. We denounced that. We had a firm action on this issue.

- I know many times Unesco is limited. It cannot interfere and tell what pathwe should take. Other times it cannot even define policies that can represent thecontrarieties of the economic interests of other countries. I know that theselimitations can exist. But anyhow, these fields have many things about whichwe can exchange ideas. I think the interchange between Unesco and the severalbodies in the House of Representatives is very beneficial in an exchange ofexperiences. We are living in a globalised world. And if we have to deal withthe negative effects of a globalised world, we have to be able to anticipate andneutralise these negative effects. We have to try and enjoy the advantageousaspects of this inexorable process.

- I think it would be extremely positive if these organisations could work withoutcomplying with the interests of the countries. Just as Unesco will not work inArgentina conforming to Brazilian interests, it is important that in Brazil it be nottied to the interests of the United States or Canada. I am not saying it is.Recently, we had a fantastic contention with Canada. What Canada was doing wasabsurd. And right now we are fighting at the World Trade Organisation regardingthe remedies issue. I am sure that the Pan-American Health Organisation andother bodies are closer to the Brazilian position than to the interests of the UnitedStates. And perhaps they are both legitimate. But it seems to me that theBrazilian position is being supported - with a certain respect to the patents ­because in times like this, when a disease threatens to devastate a part of humanity,emergency measures have to be taken. In this case, there cannot simply be aneconomic interest. Because you would have in health the same thing that is hap­pening in California and in Brazil with the energy crisis. So, these issues becomeprominent because they mobilise society. They stand out. But the health problemis just as serious, although many times there are fewer mobilisations. In thisregard, I think we need to focus our attention and exchange experiences. PerhapsUnesco and the UN can help with more independent actions targeted to benefitingthe entire humanity. Eradicating these diseases is undoubtedly an interest of theUnited States. Maybe this is not a concern of some economic organisations, whosegoals are more immediate and target basically profitable investments. But therehas to be a limit to the profit and interests of these companies. Otherwise, wewould be living in the worst of the worlds, in the least human of the worlds, aworld in which power and economic profit would always be above everything else.This cannot happen.

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I 3 .. Representative Marisa Serrano

Member of the Brazilian Social Democracy party (PSDB), she is in her second mandateas a federal representative for the state of Mato Grosso do SuI. She was also a councillorin the city of Campo Grande, and she occupied the position of state secretary ofEducation. Aprofessor and a pedagogue, her performance in the House of Representativegives priority to issues connected to education, culture, and environment.

Analysis of the interview

The representative has a great institutional image of Unesco and demonstratesgood acquaintance with its specific actions and with its partnership work. Sheemphasises the importance of Unesco's name as a potential value aggregator tothe projects in which it participates. She praises Unesco's ability to work withcongressmen from various political-ideological streams and also its performancein the House of Representatives, which is different from other internationalorganisations. She finds it strange that they do not nurture any parliamentaryinterchange. Nonetheless, she also states that Unesco should have a more effectivepresence in the National Congress. She is then a highly available ally.

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- I have observed the work performed by Unesco in the country and the partnershipsit has established. I believe Unesco has never been so visible. Its current visibility ismaybe due to a greater advertising of its actions, but mainly because it has beentrying to meet with its partners. Its partners are especially in the areas that I amconcerned with: culture, education, and the social area as a whole. And in theposition of president of the Latin American Cultural Department of the Mercosul,I want to mention the actions in which Jorge Werthein has been working. He hasbeen working towards strengthening our relations with Argentina, Uruguay, andParaguay. I just received an invitation from Unesco in Paraguay to meet with theMinister of Culture, in Asuncion. This reveals his sensitivity towards our actions.Another example was a meeting with all the cultural attaches of the embassies todiscuss problems pertaining to the culture of the Latin American continent, inparticular the Mercosul. Actions like this stimulate this integration. He has beenan integration channel. It is very important for us to know that there is a capableand reliable international organisation such as Unesco bridging all these domesticactions, actions like the youth games and the projects and programs taken up inthe country, and also external projects promoting Latin American integration.These were the two statements I wished to make.

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- Unesco has been working in my state, Mato Grosso do SUI, a state that is alsorich in terms of ecology and tourism. I think we are beginning to become consciousof the environment preservation issue in some areas of the country. Even thoughthe media states that this is already a national consciousness, it is not yet. So thisis the goal we must be targeting. I think Unesco has been carrying out a very goodwork, and it should keep on doing that. The other stream is culture. AlthoughI have a closer connection with education, I do not dissociate education fromculture. You cannot have educated people without culture. Just as you cannothave cultured people without education. And I see culture in the same way thatUnesco does, from a more anthropologic perspective. Unesco is trying to preservethe roots, the cultural identity of the countries, as we become globalised. Since weare entering a globalisation era, in which people become more and more similararound the world, it is necessary to maintain the roots, the historic heritage, andother important issues for the individual's conscience of his citizenship, his coun­try, and his home land. This cannot be lost. I think the cultural area is critiCal forUnesco's work. These are the two areas I would like to emphasise, environmentand culture.

- I do not know why Unesco has been more present than Unicef in the field whereI work here at the Congress, education and small children. I say that from aninternal perspective. Unicef is rarely with us in the area of education - I integratethe Commission of Education, Culture, and Sports, and I know that - but Unescois. I am not criticising Unicef. I know about its work in the country.I am referring to the National Congress scope, not to Unicefs actions.

- I follow up the work of these two UN organisations mainly on behalf of the Ministryof Education and the Ministry of the Environment. The people in these two areasknow about this work. However, it does not have much repercussion in the Houseof Representatives. In the Commission of Education they say, for instance, 'thisagreement has the support of UNDP', but it is not accounted for as a specific action.And we know it is only a support. But this is not the idea in the House. Whenpeople say that 'these international organisations want to sell Brazil, or they wantthis or that', I wish they would invest a little more and show representatives andsenators their importance in the transformation of the country. These agencies areimportant for us. They are reliable and they do help - I do not know if this isyour line of work, but I want to report on what we have been going through inthis House. They act as transforming agents. They do not simply provide supportor invest money. They are doing this because they believe these actions beingundertaken by the country can really help change the profile of the Braziliancitizen towards more commitment, more culture, and more ethics.

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- Unesco's importance begins with the partnership with a civil body. In the FederalDistrict or in Sao Paulo, for example, in the area of childhood and youth, it beginsby establishing the partnership, and then it follows up, comes along, analysesprojects, and gives suggestions. With the bodies in my state, for example, Unesco'sstamp gives them conditions to open up more spaces, to have more credibility,and be recognised by other bodies or by those who can indirectly help them.

- Unesco's stamp or name itself already represents a guarantee. I have seen thisin all the bodies that ask for support, particularly in Mato Grosso do SuI. 'Let'sdiscuss this with Unesco', they say. 'If they think the project is worthwhile... ' Inthe case of the project Nessa Rua Tern Talento (There's a talent on this street),Unesco's technicians spent a whole day discussing it. It is about to be assessednow. And what do they want? They want Unesco's opinion that the work they arecarrying out is important. This will add such a great value to the work theyintend to do, a work with street kids through theatre, music, dance, and culture.

- Unesco is more to the left. Others can say Unesco is more to the right. Whatwe see around here is a support from the left. It really depends on the pointof view. The other day I heard a conversation about this: "It is supporting leftbodies". And if you ask the left, they will say it is an international organisationthat supports the right. And they are right. This is Unesco's ability to penetrateall the areas. In politics it is the same, it works in cooperation with all the parties,regardless of their orientation. Focus is given to the projects being analysed.

- Regarding the interchange with the Congress, I can tell mostly about last yearand the beginning of this one. There were breakfasts, lunches, and dinners inwhich we were together with Unesco. It came over to the Commission ofEducation to inform about its projects. Unesco joined this House in a big seminarwe held last year on these three areas: Education, Culture, and Sports. Andbesides the presence of all its technicians, Unesco supported and participated inthe elaboration of the seminar. Its presence was extremely important to us, as it isfor the Commission of Security and Health, which works primarily with the rightsof the under aged, children, and adolescents. Therefore, I think this is Unesco'sline of work, to keep on doing what it is doing. It is one of the only, if not theonly, international organisation participating in prompt actions in this House. Itis not merely an institutional role, like paying a visit to the president of theHouse. It is participating in day-by-day activities like, for instance, when MinisterWeffort was here launching the Mercosul cultural stamp. Unesco was present,lecturing, explaining, and providing support. In short, it is important to haveinternal actions with which Unesco has not yet been directly involved.

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But Unesco also performs specific actions like this one, giving personal support toan action of this House. It is very important for congressmen to know that aninternal action of ours, carried out with the Ministry of Culture, is being indirectlysupported by an international organisation. It is present, experiencing our realities.

- I do not think that Unesco has carried out any kind of action with the parlia­mentarians of my state. It would be extremely interesting if we could open upthis path, because all the Legislative Assemblies have a Commission of Education,Culture, and Sports, a Commission of Social Security etc. This is extremelynecessary, yet it is not really done. In my state, for example, this kind of relationhas never been established, and it would be very important if it were. Since weare getting into the pre-elections period, at least for the next two years it wouldbe very interesting if it could go beyond state legislative assemblies and includethe capitals. Many of our capitals have to confront the majority in the LegislativePower who does not favour the capital's city hall. And any capital has a greatpower to disseminate things. I also think that the branches taken by the capitalsinto the interior are important, too. I think about my state, governed by anopposition party, the PT, which has another party in the Campo Grande City Hall.This happens all the time in the country.

- All the actions that I know of and which I have experienced - I cannot talkabout all the actions of Unesco in Brazil, because I do not really have enoughinformation - all of them involve poor children and bodies that work with peoplein need. This has been the guideline.

- I think Unesco is very cautious for an international organisation. Perhaps notto be overexposed. Few people are likely to know the work, as I said in thebeginning, because maybe the international organisation does not want tointerfere with the internal actions of the country.

- Unesco should have a more effective presence at the Congress. There arecongressmen here from all the regions of the country. So, our penetration can beextended to all the Brazilian states and to all the municipalities of the country.And this House is a glass window, maybe too exposed, to the nation. So, maybe, amore effective, ongoing work in this House combined with more effective actionsbeyond those already in progress would be worthwhile. I think it should act moredirectly. And this is not about Unesco alone. Unesco's work is quite good. This isabout all international organisations. I think it could be worth it if the Housecarried out more of these projects, in order to take them to the states. It would bedone throughout the country, and not only in this House.

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I 4 .. Representative Fernando Gabeira

A journalist and a writer, he is in his second mandate as a federal representativefor the state of Rio de Janeiro. A member of the Green Party (PV) until lateJune, he moved to the Workers Party (PT) early last July. His concern in hisperformance in the House of Representatives is the defence of the environment,natural resources, and also human rights and cultural issues.

Analysis of the interview

The representative expresses a good institutional image of Unesco, but demon­strates low level of specific knowledge, only making references to the defenceof the historic-cultural heritage and to the actions targeting youth violence andprevention of aids. Since he is an expressive congressman in the national politicalscene, renown for acting in the areas of environment and human rights, he wasexpected to manifest not only greater acquaintance with Unesco's work, but alsoan interest in joint initiatives. Also surprising is his comment that "Unesco is notvery visible". Greater attention is recommended to this representative.

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- Unesco has a very important work in Brazil. Perhaps even more important thanin other countries because Brazil has countless economic difficulties that directlyaffect children too. The image I have of Unesco is the best possible. I think itis very positive. But I have the impression that not everyone sees Unesco'sperformance in Brazil. Many people do not even know what Unesco means, orwhich segment of activities this UN agency is dedicated to. But I think it issignificant, because it is also popular due to the processes of registration of theBrazilian cultural heritage. As more and more places become recognised ashumanity or cultural heritage, people begin to realise that at least one organisationis concerned with humanity heritage. Nevertheless, on this point of view,we just had a great defeat in Afghanistan.

- Brazil is interested in international organisations, but at the same time it seeksinternational recognition. It is not a completely self-assured country, like Germany,for instance, to have a different relation with Unesco or with the United Statesitself - since they withdrew from the UN Commission of Human Rights, they donot want to invest any more money on anything.

- Regarding the juvenile delinquency issue, Unesco provides good contribution,

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participating in many debates here in the House of Representatives and also inresearches in Brazil, which provided some guidance to people interested infinding the issue. This is an important point. In regard to aids, Brazil is in greatneed of a debate on the issue. At the same time it is developing a pioneer workthat began here in the House of Representatives and in the Senate - one projectby Senator Jose Sarney and another one of mine - to guarantee free remedy foraids patients. It made some progress, and eventually the government accepted it,because it realised that the money spent on remedies was sparing beds in hospitalsand some very expensive remedies to fight opportunist infections. At least Brazilrealised that it could not develop this process if it did not produce generic remedies.And then it made a little more progress. Later on it found out that it had todevelop a popular remedy also based on our biogenetic potential. These areimportant issues in Brazil. They involve Brazil, South Mrica, and India. In fact,it involves questioning the very globalisation process.

- I think Unesco is present in the discussion of aids. But it could be much morepresent if it tried to discuss the issue of popular medicine and another issue thatseems crucial to me, the recognition of the rights of population, the intellectualrights of communities, and the rights of native populations.

- Unicef is a very popUlar agency, because it deals with a very sensitive issue inBrazil, the problem of slave work, and with a number of others matters yet to beresolved. It is well known. The other agencies developing bilateral projects withBrazil are known, but sometimes they are questioned, are they not? For instance,the agencies that bring economic and other resources are responsible not only forthe benefits, but also for the problems that these resources bring with them. Theyare also responsible for the environmental disrespect and some environmentaltragedies. So their image is more vulnerable.

- Now, Unesco, dealing with cultural issues, and Unicef, dealing with a moreuniversally correct theme, do not have any problems with their images. Of coursethere has been an image problem caused by news that, for instance, the accountancywas incorrect. But this is no news in Brazil. Brazilian life is full of these doubtsand questions. And, as evidence shows, this was a process that did not go aheadbecause it was inconsistent. However, this did not scratch its image, since it didnot have much repercussion.

- You must have a relationship with the government and with the NGOs. I am notthe kind of person who says "Let's leave the government completely out and relateonly with the NGOs". This, too, would validate the assumption that the government

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is totally useless. But I think that the work with the government has always raisedgreat concern as to the final destination of the money put in an enterprise. Howmuch of these resources does bureaucracy consume along the way? If the governmentis to achieve reasonable efficacy, I think it should also be the object of work. Ialso think that partnerships could be established with the NGOs and with somecommunities. Now, where should this go? What kind of partnership is desirable?I think there should be a debate on the current cultural situation of the planetand on the guidelines to be developed.

- What are the major problems of the planet? As I see it, there are still a numberof cultural limitations. In Latin countries the gender problem is a cultural issuethat has to be changed. It is a cultural problem. Affirming the equality of sexes isa broad scale cultural problem. Likewise, in countries such as Brazil, prejudiceregarding manual work is still a significant issue that has to be culturally overcome.Relating to the environment, viewing nature as a space to be used at your convenience,with infinite resources to be explored eternally is another large scale culturalmatter. I think these are work lines that can lead to a new cultural process.

- Today in Brazil we live on the threshold of a broad scale cultural movement.Brazil found out late, partly due to government incompetence, that the energymodel is unsustainable. Thus, we are observing in Brazil a major popularmovement to invent ways to save energy. In buildings people discuss, turn off theelevator, change light bulbs, cuts off, and make small technological innovations.This is a major cultural process. If you realise that the planet has limitedresources and that it is necessary to survive, you will have to treat and useresources in another manner. This is a major cultural issue. The biggest countryin the world still does not admit it. With all its magnitude, it still considers itpossible to go on endlessly producing in a predatory and unsustainable manner.

- I know about the presence of people from international organisations partici­pating in one or another pUblic hearing. They bring information, participate inthe Commission of Human Rights, or in some activities and so on, but I am notacquainted with any projects. They were never showed to me. Among the repre­sentatives here, I am one of the most in tune with the cultural issue. But therehas never been any movement towards an aggregation. I think there could be alarger information system. I for one do not know quite well what Unesco has tooffer in terms of partnerships. And no one has ever asked me about what theBrazilian Congress has to offer to Unesco in terms of partnership. Obviously,there is great potential. We have here the Commission of Human Rights, whichbrings a number of questions on gender, like I said, that are critical. We have the

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Commission of Consumer Rights and Environment, where a number of culturalissues essential for development are raised. We have the Commission of Educationthat deals with issues like education and Brazilian culture, historic heritage,Brazilian arts etc. And as far as I know there is no interchange. Let's discuss whatcan possibly be done jointly.

- Unesco is not very visible, you know. This makes it difficult to tell what itspriorities are. Not even the elitist bias is visible, if it ever exists. The priority isnot very visible. I think its relative non-visibility in Brazil also has to be workedout. It is not Unesco's interest to carry out a number of works that are not verypopUlar.

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I 5. Representative Dr Helio

Doctor of medicine and university professor, he is in his first mandate as afederal representative for the state of Sao Paulo. Member of the WorkersDemocratic Party (PDT), he occupied the position of municipal secretary ofhealth twice in the municipalities of HortoHindia and Americana (SP). Hiscongressman performance is characterised by the defence of children andadolescent's rights, and also by issues connected to health.

Analysis of the interview

The representative emphasises the experience accumulated by Unesco in the workwith adolescents at risk and also its collaboration in the Programa Bolsa-Escolain the Federal District and in the culture of peace campaign. He alerts thatUnesco should remain independent from the federal government and should workmore with civil entities and with the National Congress. A competent and devotedcongressman, who has been showing his potential to collaborate with Unesco, hedeserves renewed attention.

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- I would like to raise two essential points that also have to do with my congressmandate and with my professional work. The first point is the experience accumulatedby Unesco and the vigour it has been giving to the work with adolescents at risk.In particular, its concern with the diagnosis of the Brazilian adolescent, its relationwith social equipment such as the school, and the way the existing humanresources at the Brazilian pUblic schools are unprepared to assist this kind ofmarginal, socially excluded adolescent, this should all be emphasised.

- In my opinion, Unesco's role in this diagnosis was essential. In fact, it wentbeyond that. For instance, here in Brasilia, in Pernambuco, and, in partnershipwith the Latin American Centre for Studies on Violence and Health (Claves),in Rio de Janeiro at the Osvaldo Cruz Institute Foundation, it went beyond that.Besides the diagnosis, it presented some proposals that are widely accepted. ThePrograma Bolsa-Escola was based on a work carried out by Unesco here in theFederal District. Unesco's work made it possible for the Osvaldo Cruz InstituteFoundation and the Claves to make the diagnosis and propose actions to assistadolescents at risk. This was also done in Pernambuco.

- The second important point we have in common is the diffusion of the role of

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people, citizens, and civil entities in the search for a culture of peace. In thisparticular sense, I was a partner of Unesco's in 1999 here at the Congress, coordi­nating the implantation of the Parliamentary Front for the Culture of Peace. I wasinspired by Unesco's call that every citizen and all the representations, includingparliamentary ones, would have in the decade of 2000 to 2010 the obligation toestablish a systematic work in their regions and action fields for the culture ofpeace. In this direction, Unesco has an extremely important work established afew years ago with faithful partners. I could see the presence of Unipaz (theuniversity of peace), through Professor Pierre Weil, the Baha'i Community, andothers that joined this effort by Unesco in Brazil. They defined a number ofseminars, meetings, and watch actions for the culture of peace.

- I had the opportunity to promote seminars in my region, Campinas, with theparticipation of representatives of different sectors of civil society. Inspired byUnesco's role, we accomplished watches, held discussion meetings during theInternational Year for the Culture of Peace, 2000, and engendered in the collectiveconsciousness the conception that peace begins with individual consciousness,reinforcement at the community, and hope that this become permanent.

- This recommendation is not criticism, but a statement of fact. Unesco shouldkeep a certain distance from government party policies. It should stay away fromthat. I think it should be closer to civil society and the institutions that representit, to the National Congress, universities, research institutes, bodies representingthe citizen's rights, OAB (the Brazilian Attorneys Order) etc. and away from thegovernment. Experiences with the current government might make Unesco appearto be at the government programs' service. But government actions are not alwayscompatible with ethics, or with an honest search for the truth, particularly inregard to issues related to children and adolescents. Many times the truth onlyshows up at international level, contradicting apparently positive stands in Brazil.

- My experience with international organisations comes from the Pan-AmericanHealth Organisation, an institution technically untied to civil society, and fromUnicef, an institution that has been performing an important role in the analysisissues related to children and adolescents. Perhaps my opinion is somewhat partial.I had the opportunity to have greater contact with Unicef along the 80s, becauseI had founded an organisation to assist children affected by domestic violence.Therefore, it is difficult to compare. I would have to get more acquaintance withthe works carried out by Unesco. It seems to me that Unicef does not have greatvisibility in the government's pUblic policies. It seems much more in line withNGOs and institutions from civil society. And Opas is fUlly official. This is my

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view of the institutions that deal with children and adolescents. Unicers positiontargets the common interests of citizenship, with organisations not committedwith government official programs.

- As a recommendation, if it must have a more direct contact with officialinstitutions, it should be with those that represent substantial parcels of theBrazilian population. The National Congress is one of those. Neither of us hereis representing his personal or doctrinal activity, but a substantial parcel ofthe Brazilian people. So, this contact is plural. Too much closeness with thegovernment may eventually and subconsciously put you in a position of serviceto the government's official programs. And this is not good, since you are aninternational organisation. You should have a pluralist vision, and that you canachieve with the National Congress and with civil entities.

- There are a number of permanent commissions here composed of a great dealof congressmen, from different doctrines, ideologies, and representations. Thesecommissions discuss problems related to education in general. There is even aspecific commission on that, and others that discuss cultural issues, and parlia­mentary fronts that work in this direction. The Congress is very rich in terms ofexperiences and ideas. There is a very pluralist representation. I think that theinstitution has this function.

- Here at the House of Representatives the congressmen are obliged to use theirpenetration system and disseminate throughout the country messages that canproduce positive impacts to education, culture, and to the combat of poverty.This is a role that Unesco could seek to perform in this particular field. I think awork could be started here, but it would have to be a joint work. I do not knowif Unesco has the structure for this. But it should target the regions with highestimpacts, those where opinion makers are concentrated, major universities, andthe greatest organised sectors of civil society. I think it could cause an importantimpact if it were closer to them. Brasilia would concentrate the strategic discussionsof guidelines, so that we could actually produce something consistent in theregions. It should also target the National Congress, because it is more plural.This is more legitimate than to remain under the shade of the official government,which can change its orientation according to internal processes that havenothing to do with an official international institution.

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I 6. Representative OsmarTerra

Member of the Brazilian Democratic Movement Party (PMDB), he is in his firstmandate as a federal representative for the state of Rio Grande do SuI. A doctorof medicine, he was executive secretary of the Programa Comunidade Solidaria(Program Solidarity Community) of the federal government. He was also mayor ofSanta Maria city (RS). Issues connected with health, social security, and childdevelopment are the main focus of his public actions.

Analysis of the interview

Recently egressed from the Programa Comunidade Solidaria, the representativeemphasises the partnerships between Unesco and the federal government.Since he is new to the House, he demonstrates little acquaintance with Unesco'spresence in the Congress. Nonetheless, his potential of collaboration is eVident,particularly in the commissions of Health and Education. An unconditional ally,he needs to be permanently supplied with information. His institutional image ofUnesco is obviously great.

Partly edited content

- I have seen the partnerships between Unesco and the federal government.Particularly, I participated in a partnership with the Comunidade Solidaria tosupport the program Comunidade Ativa (Active Community) in the area ofqualification of human resources. I have been able to observe other agreements,and I am referring to the period previous to my mandate as a representative.

- I see a remarkable presence of Unesco in the great mobilisations throughoutthe country, particularly in the areas of culture, non-violence, and peace. I seethat the main mobilisations, events, and entities working in this direction havehad ample support from Unesco. I consider Unesco's work extremely significant.

- Among the international organisations working in Brazil, I see Unesco'sperformance as being more prominent, because it involves more partnerships.Although my perspective is from within the health area, and not only in the Ministryof Health, I see it acting in several areas. Especially in education and in the socialarea there is a significant presence of Unesco's partnerships on several levels.

- Unesco contributes to the eradication of poverty when it collaborates decisivelyin the programs for the qUalification of human resources. Today, there is a program

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for local sustainable development that is the greatest program ever done inBrazil's history. It includes the greatest qUalification program ever done: qUalificationof qualificators of institutions, universities, and renown non-governmental institutionsin the entire country. This program is already in progress - remote and on thespot qualification of qualificators - and it had the decisive support of Unesco.If it were not for Unesco, this program would probably not exist, or at least itwould not have happened at such a speed and with the current agility.

- In order to give a piece of information that I find important, in the beginningof the year, through the Agency of Education for Development, which has apartnership with Unesco, a thousand people applied for the qualification program.After four months, 400 people had passed the tests and been selected. They wouldhave to go to remote municipalities of Brazil and remain there for a period betweenfour and six months, qualifying community leaders and mobilising the communityfor local integrated and sustained development. Now, there is a group of 1,800people enrolled. This is all happening because Unesco opened up the possibilitywith its partnership. So, I think Unesco's work is essential in the social area andparticularly in the combat of poverty through the generation of development.

-I think Unesco has a very important role in education and culture. I considereducation to be extremely important, from education for development to educationfor peace and infantile education, not disregarding others, I consider this work tobe urgent in today's Brazil.

- I think Unesco has been showing enormous articulation capacity. At least frommy experience in the governmental area, Unesco was notorious for its capacity toarticulate and promptly respond to the partnership needs in the federal sector.Regarding the NGOs, I do not have much information. Now, with the government,I do. Perhaps among the international organisations, it is the institution with thehighest number of partnerships.

- I have been here for a week now, actually four days. I do not have muchinformation on the progress of any work being carried out by Unesco here at theHouse of Representatives. But today, for instance, I participated in a discussionabout drugs at the Commission of Security where non-repression was chosen asthe working approach. To begin with, preventive measures were discussed thathave to do with education and with a number of other associated issues. This isall interconnected. Violence is connected to drugs. I felt that the representativesand congressmen are eager for information.

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- I think Unesco could equip us, participate, or establish some kind of partnership.Somehow it could get into specific issues, have some participation in the commissions,and provide them with updated information. In this area, for instance, there areinsufficient data. Unfortunately, there are a few researches. And the existing onesare questionable to some extent, because people do not want to talk. If they uselicit drugs, they speak. But if the drugs are illicit, they do not. The data areunderstated. Unesco could bring experiences from around the world in this area.It could provide specific commissions in the areas of education, health, and otherswith worldwide experiences. We felt the importance of this when we establishedthese integrated development programs for the early childhood. Therefore, it isimportant to have an idea of what is going on around the world to avoid repeatingmistakes or treading the same paths again. Unesco has a privileged forum in thisarea that can be of great help.

- Jorge Werthein has been an excellent partner. He is a great articulator. His abilityto articulate is unparalleled. He is able to get into the most different areas andprovide help.

- In regard to institutional issues, yes, Unesco should participate in political andelectoral debates. In view of the demand in the areas where it works, Unesco canimprove its structure in order to be really present in all major related proposals. Ihighly regard the issues of education and combat of violence, because they arerelated to everything else.

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17. Representative Marcos Rolim

Federal representative for the first time, he was president of the Commission ofHuman Rights of the House of Representatives. Member of the Workers Party(PT), he represents the state of Rio Grande do SuI, where he was councillor, staterepresentative twice, and president of the Commission of Human Rights of theLegislative Assembly. A journalist and defender of human rights, his congressmanperformance targets this area, and also includes the rights of minorities, prisoners,and bearers of mental diseases.

Analysis of the interview

The representative emphasises Unesco's pUblic credibility and attributes it toits researches and campaigns, as well as to its impartiality regarding party political­ideological conflicts. Hence his positive perception of Unesco's institutional image.Specific references are made to human rights. The representative's defence of astronger intervention by Unesco in the areas of research and social communicationshould be emphasised. However, taking into consideration that the representativereceived a prize from Unesco related to human rights, he was expected to be moreacquainted with specific actions and to make favourable value jUdgements. Inspite of that, he is an excellent strategic ally.

Partly edited content

- I think Unesco's strongest image is that centred or structured upon a highpUblic credibility, based on researches, data, and campaigns. Whenever I seeUnesco's name, the image is of an institution that has pUblic credibility and thatis impartial regarding party political-ideological disputes. A report, a stUdy, or apUblication produced by Unesco is practically an unquestionable reference inBrazil. In my opinion, this assures Unesco a very positive image.

- When Unesco is compared to other international organisations, I do not know.In fact, perhaps it has a lot to do with my work. In my current work with humanrights, the greatest interchange is with Unesco and Ilanud. There is no otheragency with which I have a closer interaction. So maybe my assessment will beinfluenced by the work with human rights, which involves basically children, butalso issues like culture and education through work.

- Among all the agencies working in Brazil, Unesco is perhaps the strongest interms of pUblicity. Its pUblic image is well constructed and respected. The others,

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I think, have seasonal interventions. That is the impression I have. Occasionally,you hear of something produced by Fao or by some other entity. I think Ilanudtoo has a very infrequent presence. It is different with me, because I relate tothem for work purposes only.

- It seems to me that the work with bodies from civil society is perhaps moreproductive from the results standpoint. In the case of governments, regardless ofUnesco's purpose, there will always be great constraint regarding each government'spriorities. We know from our own experience that a left government does notnecessarily have social priorities. ThUS, working with the government may beimportant for Unesco, because it increases its credibility and its presence in theBrazilian political scene. But the results may be lesser than those that could beobtained through works with civil society or with serious entities that have aprominent action in the area of human rights.

- All the issues in Unesco's mandate are very important. In Brazil we have tochoose a priority due to the seriousness of the problems we face. I think thatevery work involving the situation of children in Brazil should be considered apriority. I think this is priority number one in the area of human rights in Brazil.I mean not only the situation of abandoned children, or children at risk, but thegeneral situation of children. For instance, the rights of children do not concernexclusively peripheral segments. They involve all social classes. I think Unescohas carried out an important work in this area, and this should be a top priority.Another point that calls my attention to the work, interest, theoretical production,and researches of Unesco involves social communication. I think this is also apriority issue in Brazil given the inexistence or low incidence of works in thisarea. I would point out these two issues. I think that a discussion on drugs, forinstance, is perhaps very important in Brazil, but it cannot be compared to theseother more urgent issues.

- Regarding Unesco's contribution to eradicate poverty and to promote socialdevelopment, I think its actions are not visible. I do not think so. I am not sure.From the point of view of its pUblic image, these actions are not very visible.Maybe it has to do with what I have mentioned. Actions of this nature can onlyhave a more noticeable effect if they are carried out in partnership with thegovernment. It is very unlikely that concrete results in the combat of povertycan be achieved through actions in solidarity campaigns with entities from civilsociety. This is an issue where the economic policy is central. We know whathappens in Brazil.

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- I think it has an intense participation in the Congress. During the time I waspresident of the Commission of Human Rights, Unesco was always present inseveral joint activities we carried out. Particularly in the Commission of HumanRights it has been highly present. I also obsenred some things. Although I am nota member of the commission, I know about joint initiatives taken by Unesco andthat commission. Perhaps the only thing desenring future consideration is the factthat there are several institutions at the House of Representatives and some inBrazil. There are also private lobbies. In other words, there are corporate groupsthat keep an ongoing work of legislative follow-up. For instance, these groupshave a team to follow up all the projects that come into a given area in whichthey have interest. They offer opinions to the projects and look for relaters towhom they can offer help. I am referring to legitimate lobbies that involveopinions, and not to traditional economic interest lobbies. Perhaps Unesco coulddevelop this activity in a more organic manner, as a constant follow-up of projectswithin the scope of its mandate. It could assist representatives, benches, orparties along the course of significant projects on issues with which Unesco isinvolved. This could be interesting.

- I also think Unesco could collaborate with parliamentarians in the states.According to the issues within its mandate, Unesco could have a kind of parlia­mentary front over the parties to work in these areas. This would be for thefederal benches. As to state ones, I am not sure Unesco has organic conditionsfor that. And it would imply keeping offices in all the states. In short, I think itis more difficult. But I think this is possible with the Federal House. The repre­sentatives, in turn, could have a stronger relationship with Unesco according totheir work in the states.

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I 8. Senator Pedro Simon

A Republic Senator for the fifth time, he represents the state of Rio Grande doSuI, where he was elected governor. He was also four times a state representativeand councillor in Caxias do SuI. A lawyer and university professor, he is amember of the Brazilian Democratic Movement Party (PMDB). Presently,he is trying to win his party's preference as a potential candidate to thePresidency of the Republic in 2002.

Analysis of the interview

Despite making positive generic references to Unesco's work, the truth is thatthe senator was very laconic and evasive in his statements, demonstrating verylow level of acquaintance with specific actions. Besides, he seemed to want toemphasise Unesco's limitations more than its potentials. Since he is apre-candidate to the Presidency of the Republic, he should be provided withmore information and, if possible, greater proximity should be sought with him.

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- I look at Unesco with a lot of sympathy. It is an institution connected withgood causes; it defends the cure for the barber bug fever throughout the world.My idea is that if Unesco could influence the United States, the world would notbe the same. If Unesco could have an opinion on or interfere with the UnitedStates international policy, the world would be better. If it could have part of theUnited States bUdget, the world would be different. Unfortunately, you cannot.You have good purposes, good will, good efforts, but today's reality is very painfUl.

- In Brazil's case, my specific references about Unesco's work are good. They are allpositive. I think that, besides education and health, it could work a little more onthe social issue, on misery, and on classes D and E. But I have a lot of respect for Unesco.

- I think Unesco is contributing to eradicate poverty in Brazil. But poverty existsand is increasing. And I defend the thesis that we, Brazilians and the Congress,have not been competent enough to elaborate a specific plan to tackle the povertyissue. There was a little project to combat poverty, but I think it did not produceany results. We do not have the conditions. Our bureaucracy reaches the bolsa­escola program, the school meal, and even the distribution of food, but it does notreach those living under the bridges, the derelicts, and the unemployed in termsof a plan to transform and not only to maintain circumstances.

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- Unesco should concentrate on the issue of poverty. In this case I think itsactions should be visible. The first strategy would be to denounce the matter,denounce the facts, as it often happens. They should show the figures, show thatin Brazil there is poverty too, there is misery, and social inequality.

- When compared to other international organisations, my impression is thatUnesco is more official. It is one more institution of the UN that has tradition andbackground, that is able to maintain itself, and that has a biography. The othersare more like beginners. If Unesco has inconsistencies, the others have manymore. Compared to other organisations, Unesco is more prominent.

- As to the form of action, Unesco should establish more partnerships with thecommunity, and not only with the pUblic sector. I do not think this is the way. Thisis the year of voluntary work. I think the UN should work a little more with civil entities.

- There should be more partnerships between Unesco and parliamentarians. Itshould also have greater participation in the Congress and in the Senate since itis weak. I think there should be a connection, and this would be highly positiveand interesting for the Congress.

- It is legitimate that international organisations carry out diagnoses of theBrazilian situation, classifying it according to social indicators, and disseminatethem to the whole world. I think this is a positive aspect of globalisation. It isgood to have an impartial body to show our situation. Some things are verydifficult, and we have few references on them. There are journals, institutions,magazines, and universities, but their credibility is very relative. And you shouldbe very careful and maintain your credibility. It is important. Every year I getyour data and take them to the tribune for analysis, debates, and discussions. Ithink this is highly positive.

- Participating in the electoral debate is a complicated thing. If Unesco hasalready chosen a certain candidate it becomes difficult. How could you have allof this if you were partial? Now, bringing data, figures, and reports and distributingthem to all the cities I think is very positive. You must be very careful and impartialin your approach, especially because, as a rule, these figures and issues end upbeing taken by the opposition. And you reply, "But the misery is much greater.There is a whole concentration". This cannot be different. That is why you, asmuch as possible, should be careful when presenting figures. I think it is goodthat they serve as a reference for the campaign, but they should not indicate, forinstance, that Unesco is against the government.

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19. Representative Eduardo Jorge

Member of the Workers party (PT), he is presently on a leave from the House of Repre­sentatives, where he represents the state of Sao Paulo, to occupy for the second timethe position of municipal secretary of Health in the city of Sao Paulo. Elected four times afederal representative, he was also a state representative. Adoctor of medicine, his parlia­mentary performance is targeted to the issues of health, social security, and education.

Analysis of the interview

The representative gave us an interview through e-mail. Therefore, there was nointeraction. However, as can be seen, his references about Unesco are positive,though rather laconic. Nonetheless, he is a congressman in tune with Unesco'smandate, acting in the Sao Paulo City Hall.

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- My image of Unesco is that it is one of the most active agencies connected withthe UN in Brazil.

- I believe Unesco works in Brazil to eradicate poverty and to support our socialdevelopment.

- Among the issues within Unesco's mandate, I think the mobilisation for theCulture of Peace is most important at the moment.

- I think the partnership between Unesco and the government sector is good forUnesco and good for the Brazilian State.

- Unesco, Unicef, and WHO/Opas are the most active and visible internationalorganisations in Brazil.

- Regarding the relationship between Unesco and the National Congress, I wouldsay that in the Social Security Commission, where I worked for several years,Unesco was a very present partner.

- I think Unesco should continue to promote discussions about pUblic policies inother countries for comparative analysis.

- My opinion about Unesco's presence in Brazil is that it is positive, necessary, and active.

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,20. Representative Atila Lins

Member of the Liberal Front Party (PFL), representing the state of Amazonas, heis in his third mandate as a federal representative. He was also a state representativethree times consecutively. A lawyer and an economist, he was an auditor at theAudit Office of the State of Amazonas. At the House of Representatives he is amember of the permanent commissions of Amazonia, Regional Development, andForeign Affairs. His parliamentary performance targets the environment and thedevelopment of the Amazon region.

Analysis of the interview

The representative is prolix, diffuse, and evasive. In fact, he demonstratesextremely low level of knowledge about Unesco's work in Brazil. However, hehas positive generic references about it. It should be pointed out that his opinionsabout NGOs and about the development of the Amazon are progressive. Hedemonstrates to have interest in counting on the support of Unesco in a seminaron ecotourism, which can be an interesting way to get into the northern region.

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- Perhaps because I study the matter, I pay close attention to the internationalorganisations acting around the world. I have a definite idea of how organisationssuch as the UN, OMC, OIT, and of course Unesco function. I think Unesco has afantastic image worldwide, much better than in Brazil. This is probably due to agreater pUblicity of Unesco's actions in global terms. At national level, we hearabout Unesco's performance in several programs of areas of the country that havesupport for the registration of historic places. Yet, I think Unesco should givemore pUblicity to its actions in Brazil. I have a very good concept of Unesco dueto my readings about the world. If I had no idea of what goes on in the world andof Unesco's actions world"ide, I would probably consider Unesco's image in Brazilrather weak and incipient. But I know about its reputation around the world. AndI include Brazil in this worldwide context.

- In my opinion, Unesco should go further into the issue of preservation of heritageand environment, and should also give support to the issue of juvenile delinquency,because education and health already have many programs. For instance, I amnot sure this has any connection with Unesco, but the group Medicos SemFronteiras (Doctors with no boundaries) ... Is it from Unesco? Is it an NGO? It isa French NGO. You can see there are several actions in the fields of health and

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education. This program was granted the Nobel Prize for Peace. So, in my opinion,in terms of Brazil, Unesco would be much more prominent if it acted in thepreservation of the environment - because of the Amazon or the Pantanal regions- and also in the registration of historic heritage. The city of Sao Luis seems tohave obtained the registration a short time ago. Ouro Preto has, too. And manyother regions in Brazil are already registered. I think the help in the area ofyouths is very good. To me, the help in these three areas would be fantastic.

- I have a very broad view of this issue. In 1991, when I took on my first mandateas a federal representative, a Parliamentary Investigation Commission (CPI)against the internationalisation of the Amazon was installed and I presided overit. This CPI found out about the existence of hundreds of NGOs, many religiousmissions, basically protestant ones, non-Catholic. We found out that many ofthem carry out a real brain programming regarding the Indians issue. At the time,the problem of the lanomamis tribe was intensified and the crisis was terrible. Todate I am still not convinced of the need for such a big area for them. Moreover,since we come from the northern region, Manaus, Amazonia, we know that theIndian tribes do not move around that much to need big sections of land. Theydo not plant that much. They survive basically from fishing and stuff like that.Suddenly, they concluded that in order to maintain the natural habitat of thelanomamis, they should be given 10 million hectares. Such a terrible thing! TheBrazilian lanomami borderline was then connected with the Venezuelan Reserve,as if there were an lanomami Nation. During the new investigation in 1991,we found out about many actions that we considered an interference with theAmazon region. In a certain way, I was very upset. I even had to call for deposi­tion several of these entities. Many of them showed up; some, forcefully. We foundout there were more than a thousand illegal runways in the region. They werelocated in the very communities and religious missions, only for them. At night,these runways were closed. Nobody could land or takeoff. The airport was onlyused by the mission. So, I do not want to generalise, but I think that a greatnumber of these missions are not in for philanthropic work.

- Strange as it may seem, I have never seen any actions from these officialinternational agencies, such as the UN or Unesco, in Manaus. I even think it isabout time Unesco did something, like registering the Amazonas Theatre, forinstance. This was a construction done by the French during the high times ofrubber extraction, when Amazonas was considered the richest state in Brazil.We built the Amazonas Theatre and the Manaus Customs building. These areunparalleled constructions that should be registered. If Unesco did this, theAmazonian popUlation would definitely feel the presence of these organisations.

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Right now there is a CPI in the Senate investigating this issue: the actions ofNGOs in Amazonia. I have not been following it because it has just started. Itseems that they have started the debates. I worked for a year as president of the1991 CPI. Our report approached various issues. We even found out that about100 missionaries from Los Angeles are allowed to come to Brazil every month.Only from Los Angeles! So you can imagine how many missionaries fromAmerican NGOs are circulating in the Amazon region. And the Embassy's authori­sation is easily obtained. There are many things in that vast region that even usBrazilians do not know.

- I have a good impression of UNDP. Its actions take place mostly in Amazonia.We should get acquainted with some actions from UNDP with the Ministry of theEnvironment. They provide certain resources. The Ministry of the Environmentsends resources to the interior, to the municipalities, and even to sanitary actionsin the igarapes. I admit it is the agency I hear most of.

- I do not like it when they act in partnership with NGOs, pushing away thepUblic power. In my opinion, this is another disguised interference with thecountry's domestic affairs. Look, if you establish a partnership in Amazonia andyou do not relate to environment or to the state government, you give the impressionthat you are entering the citizen's house without asking for it. The state governmentand the federal government itself are highly interested in this partnership. Withthe state government, for instance, I think it is even better than with the Ministry,because the Ministry has a broader scope. Brazil is almost a continent. If youestablish a partnership directly with the state government, it will define theactions to presenre. It will tell you where it is degraded, where it needs reforesting,and where it needs an economic-ecological zoning. Many times they have givenmoney for the economic-ecological zoning, and it has not been finished yet.

- If a partnership had been established directly with the state or with the governorof Amazonas, verifying how much is required for the economic-ecological zoning,or what the state's vocations are, the zoning would already have been concluded.Because this happens here at the Ministry, sometimes things get lost in the way.The country is very large. It is not that resources are deviated, but they deviatefrom the objectives of the program. Suddenly, resources are not applied to thezoning; they are applied to something else, to the Mata AtHintica (AtHlntica'Voods), you know. We need to get out of this line of fire. The region can nolonger stand the fact that everything has to be done for preservation purposes.What about progress? Native people that live in the interior are eager for developmentactions. They are tired. You cannot build a road, for instance! It is always like

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this: "Oh, see that it does not damage the environment". If it will destroy theenvironment, the United States government blocks the resources. They will notallow it. Then, President Fernando Henrique blocks the bUdget. Right now we aretrying to recover Road 319, which connects Manaus to Porto Velho. The governmentdid not consider it a priority. When we went to ask why, we heard that, "the areahas some things about the environment that are not very clear". How come it isnot clear if the road is already open? We just want to recover it. They keep blockingit excused by preservation purposes. But they do not offer an alternative. We wantecotourism; we want a program that we call chimneyless industry. But how can wehave it? Where is the infrastructure? Where are the airports, the well set-up hospitals?Nobody goes up to Amazonia for ecotourism. They want to do tourism inAmazonia in comfortable places.

- I notice that they prevent the government from developing in fear of degradation,in fear of a large scale burning. And we have clearly proven that the Amazonianpeople do not have a tendency for degradation, to the extent that it is the statewith the lowest level of degradation. The problem is in the states of Para andRondonia. In Amazonas preservation is perfect. You flyover Amazonas - and I dothis a lot through the interior - all you see is the forest. Where you do not seeforest you see a river. There is no devastation. According to calCUlations, 98% ofAmazonas is untouched. Perhaps this is due to the Duty Free Zone. Since it has alot of industries, generates jobs, and gives the government a substantial collectionof taxes to be invested in the interior, the native man has not had the need todeplete the forest for sustenance. But you can imagine what we suffer to maintainthe Duty Free Zone. All the time we have to deal with pressure from Silo Pauloand from Minas Gerais, because they think we should not have all those fiscalincentives. It is such a terrible thing.

- I find Unesco's mission in Brazil extremely important, because the country isstill young. It is 500 years old, of course, but it does not have the same culturalheritage as Europe. Since it is considered a leader in Latin America, Unesco'spresence here is important. It draws a lot of attention, especially in view of thediversity of actions that can be developed. For instance, you can develop anaction in Amazonia, another one in Rio Grande do SuI, and another one in MinasGerais with the historical cities, and another one in Rio de Janeiro with its richnatural resources. In my opinion, Unesco only needs one thing: to give morepUblicity to its work. If it could carry out an action in Amazonia, it would haveworldwide impact. I can never forget about the time we had a Japanese business­man called Imori visiting the Amazonas Theatre. He was a pianist. He was 74years old and he said he could not die before he did a concert in the most beautiful

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theatre in the forest. And he did it. They showed it live in Japan. That is why Isay that anything Unesco could do, for instance a registration in Amazonas, wouldhave international repercussion. I think it could do it a little more.

- Ecotourism, perhaps a seminar to discuss what forms of promotion could bedone in that area, are easy products to sell. Any event Unesco can do in Amazoniais easy. Everybody wants to go there, especially under the command of a respectedinternational agency such as Unesco. It would be a big success, and Unesco wouldbe very well positioned. "Unesco has reached that sector, that region with whicheverybody is concerned: Amazonia".

- I think one way to intensify the exchange between Unesco and parliamentarians isto do more visiting to the regions, more meetings, and more events. It should callfor meetings, social gatherings here in Brasilia, debates at the embassy about anissue, for instance Amazonia, inviting all of the representatives from that state. Ifit wishes to deal with a matter in Minas Gerais, it can invite the representativesfrom Minas for a meeting at the embassy or at the office. This would be good.They can host a seminar in Manaus and invite the whole Amazonian region.

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2. I • Representative Ivan Paixao

He is a member of the Popular Socialist Party (PPS) and represents the state ofSergipe in his first mandate as a federal representative. A surgeon-doctor, hewas state secretary of Health. He is on a 1S-month leave from the House ofRepresentatives to occupy the position of state secretary of Education. Hiscongress performance is focused on the defence of public policies in the areaof mother-child health, emphasising the northeastern region.

Analysis of the interview

Although he has little specific knowledge, the representative expresses positivereferences about Unesco's work. It should be pointed out that he takes little noticeof Unesco's presence in the Congress. He is a serious and devoted congressman,whom Unesco can count on for potential partnerships in the Northeast.

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- By the information given to us about Unesco, the first image is that it has aserious, respectable work. I have had the opportunity to meet Unesco's represen­tative twice regarding education, once in a meeting at the Confederation ofIndustry, and another time I was at the presentation of an educational project bySESI. So, I see it as an active and very respected organisation in our country.

- Education is already a mark. In a country like ours, with a tremendousdevelopment strain, educational issues are being targeted. Brazil needs toincrease not only the number of schools, but also the quality of education inorder to provide all children, youths, and Brazilians with a more developedintellectual level. This is a landmark, and Unesco cannot give up this work.Another important issue is aids. Since it is currently a planetary epidemic, it isimportant to have the greatest number possible of institutions and organisationtargeting the situation. In the 21st century, Unesco is involved with the issues ofviolence and human rights. Today, the issue of violence is critical in Brazil. Ithink it is a national epidemic that is rooted in several structures that generate it:unemployment, lack of schools with good quality education, and mainly very littlework, job, and income opportunities. I think Unesco should also be concernedwith violence, because it is an important issue. I think it is important to work onthese three major issues: violence, education, and aids.

- No, it is not that its contribution is decisive. We can make a comparison, say,

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with Unicef, that deals a lot with the issue of children. Unicefs work will notreduce infantile death rates, just as Unesco's will not eradicate poverty. But, as Ihave said, since they are prominent, opinion-making organisations, due to theirtechnical staff, to their connection with international organisations, and to thedata collected here and sent to their head offices, they can build up a significantdiagnosis of the global and national situation. With their works, opinions, andbooks pUblished, they can expose Brazil to the rest of the world, just like Unicefdoes. I think Unesco has a contribution in this sense, to sensitise national authoritiesto give priority to these matters. In other words, Unesco should take a stand inorder to lever governmental measures. It is an important voice that contributes,but it is not a decisive factor in the eradication of poverty.

- For what I see, I think these international institutions and organisationsalready do this. And they have much more to do: to seek the help of civil society'sorganisations. In Brazil, voluntary work in national problems is very little.Brazilians still evade from national problems, placing them under the responsibilityof the government. They think that the government will have a solution foreverything. They often forget that misery, the child at the traffic light, carwatChers, and the derelicts sleeping on the streets are society's problems, eitherbecause it does not take action to try and solve the problem, or because it electsgovernors that are not committed to changing the country into a society whererights and opportunities are equal for everyone. Thus, I believe there is a naturaltendency to act. Unesco should work with official bodies, both state and federal.At these two levels, it should act as a guide or promoter, using technical works,alerting governors and bringing cheaper solutions from other countries similar toBrazil. It should try and associate with non-profit entities from civil society.Today there is a specific law on this, trying to change the NGOs into this kind oforganisation. And I think this should be the natural way towards expansion. AnNGO, a civil society organisation is sometimes more permanent than governmentalpolicies. You could have a governor to embrace the cause of education and anotherone to do something else. If civil society could become organised it would be veryimportant for Brazil.

- I do not see much of Unesco's presence here at the Congress. This is a verycomplex, dynamic house that is very much in tune with the latest news. It has anintense interface with the media, with those things that mostly affect the Brazilianpeople, the scandals, the blackout, Jader Barbalho (the president of the House ofRepresentatives), the kind of thing you know quite well. Unesco's performance isvery little aggressive here. I am a member of the commissions of Health andEducation, and I have seen very few mentions to Unesco or invitations to

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participate in pUblic hearings. Unesco could have a more specific performance. Ido not know if Unesco already has it. It should have a parliamentary assessor herein the House constantly forwarding e-mails to congressmen. If it is going to devoteitself to education or human rights there should be one in the respective commissions.A person from Unesco could follow up the course, the meetings, and hearings andmake suggestions to parliamentarians as to the making of decisions. As I havesaid, it is an opinion-making organisation. I think this is a great work. Unescocould be closer to congressmen, providing them with catalogues, information,clippings, e-mails, that kind of support, so that parliamentarians could begin tobe acquainted with effective actions by Unesco.

- The work I was most involved with was bv Unicef. I see Unicef as an institution,a very active body that has important strategies. You see in children's programsthat Unesco makes famous comedians into its ambassadors. If Daniela Mercury isthe most famous singer in the Northeast, they use her. In the United States, theyuse former 007 agent Roger Moore. It always associates major children issuesaround the world with important personalities. I think this strategy is extremelyimportant. An important issue from Unicef that I followed closely was about theconsultants. We had Mario Glisser here - and I remember this quite well becauseI was state secretary of Health at the time. He went back to Chile. Mario wasalways around, bringing information on homemade serum, or on infantile deathprevention programs. In the UNDp, the issue of populations. Unicef used a strategyof placing specific assessors in the affected regions to provide direct assessorship.That person would remain basically at that state or region's service. I do not seethis with Unesco. I was also state secretary of Education of the state of Sergipe fora shorter time, because I was already a congressman and wanted to come back tothe House. I went to my state to solve some problems. I spent a year and threemonths as secretary of Education and, during that time, I had no contact withUnesco's representatives in the state of Sergipe. Education in Brazil takes a hugeslice of the budget if compared to other administrative structures: 25% of a stateor municipality's budget, inclUding the school meal, and transportation. We have aserious problem in Brazil, repetition and school evasion. Millions and millions ofreais are wasted on students that are not enrolled or that do not finish theircourses. Some repeat. Others simply drop out of school. I think Unesco could bemore present, like Unicef. For what I see, Unesco works more with higher levelpositions, in Brasilia, or in solemnities with President Fernando HenriqueCardoso. I see Jorge Werthein giving interviews. He himself should be in the statesand in important cities or he should send his consultants to help the secretariesof Education of the states and cities.

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2. Senator Emnia Fernandes

The first woman to represent the state of Rio Grande do SuI in the Federal Senate,she integrates the bench of the Workers party (PT). A professor, she was municipalsecretary of Education and a councillor in Santana do Livramento city (RS).

Analysis of the interview

The senator has a great perception of Unesco's institutional image and besidesshe makes positive references about its specific actions. This is not a surprisesince she is a competent parliamentarian that has been demonstrating to be anally to the issues within Unesco's mandate. She points out Unesco's work withyouths, the promotion of quality education, and also the campaign for the cultureof peace.

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- My impression of Unesco's work in Brazil is that it undoubtedly represents anextremely important space for discussion and reaffirmation of human rights,youth participation, women's participation, and mainly the construction of a morejust, humanitarian, and helpful world. I have had great opportunities to attestactions, practices, programs, and worldwide campaigns sponsored by Unesco,always targeted to the construction of positive values for a world that needs torecuperate values, ideas, and solidarity consciousness. I have great respect for thiswork. I believe that this call and all the work carried out throughout the world,and partiCUlarly in Brazil, has brought a significant contribution from Unesco.Despite the great problems related to inequalities, idleness, and disenchantmentfelt by a significant part of our population, especially the Brazilian people, Unescohas been showing that we can construct peace and quality education. We can callonto youths and also onto teachers for an integrated and socialised coexistencebased on their potentials, on the practice of sports, on the use of schools, and ondifferent forms of thinking. I really believe Unesco has a significant role in thisglobal context. And particularly in Brazil, due to the seriousness of those whocarry out and administrate this work in our country, it has provided an essentialcontribution.

- Undoubtedly, the general issue of construction of peace is crucial, because it isanalysed from a broader perspective. Peace is not only the absence of wars, butalso a fraternal coexistence that must begin with the family, involve the school,and reach society. Thus, the spirit of the culture of peace is essential. I believe

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that in a certain way some seeds have already been sown with this worldwidecampaign developed by Unesco. The environment and historical heritage issuesalso seem of great importance. The greatest challenge of our time is to make manrecognise the damages he has caused to nature and try to make up for them. Wehave to clean our rivers, recuperate our forests, our fields, and our air. Thus, it isimportant that the new generation and also adults work as much as possible tocorrect that. And Unesco does this very appropriately. Another issue that I considerimportant is culture. Brazil is a large, culturally rich country that has severalraces. Therefore, anything we can preserve in terms of the historic-cultural heritage,so that society can enjoy in the future is also an affirmation of the education andculture being dealt with. The other aspect that I consider essential and urgent inBrazil is the integration and socialisation of youths. It seems that violence isincreasing at a frightening pace among youths. And we have to find out the causesand present solutions. Unesco has been demonstrating an understanding thatviolence among youths stems from the lack of perspective and from the exclusionthat plague them. They are practically pushed into drugs, alcohol, and physicalviolence. The challenge of understanding youth anxieties and proposing alterna­tives such as culture, music, and sports seems to be extremely urgent, necessary,and helpful. Brazil wants and needs the partnership with Unesco.

- We also understand that, by raising these discussions and calling for partner­ships with the governments and NGOs, Unesco demonstrates that this unbalancecan be corrected. It also guides and alerts, reminding the governments of theirresponsibilities. This work is essential to sensitise private initiatives that can alsobuild something. This partnership work is always positive.

- We understand that it is essential to work in partnership. All these problemsembraced by Unesco are a collective responsibility and should be treated as SUCh.This decentralised approach with the federal, state, and municipal governmentsseems very positive to me. Unesco really does a concrete work more adapted tothe conditions of each city, state, or region. This decentralisation seems essentialto me. And I believe the results are perhaps more concrete, objective, and tangiblewhen the work is carried out in a shorter scope. I believe it is necessary to goahead. And we want Unesco to expand its work more and more in this direction.

- We know that these organisations also develop an important work in the area ofchildren and women. Now, Unesco stands out for its comprehension, visibility,and credibility. It seems to me that their activities are complementary. Each ofthem performs in a different sector. But Unesco manages to achieve a moregeneral, comprehensive scope.

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- This interchange between the institutions and the National Congress, regardlessof party political orientations, seems essential. The National Congress appears tobe a fertile field in which to work out these issues that require greater sensitivity.And Unesco can provoke that. There are people willing to be partners, disseminateideas, and stimulate projects and exchange of experiences. I believe that thisshould be intensified. I think we need to be constantly informed of Unesco's work,because we have a significant space for advertisement. Today we have the meansof communication of the Congress that can be taken throughout the whole country. Ithink that by means of the exchange of information and periodic meetings, wecan reach those parliamentarians that wish to embrace the causes and spreadthem, thus valuing what is being done.

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23. Senator Luiz Otavio

Republic senator since 1998, representing the state of Para, he was also a councillor,state representative, president of the City Council of BeIem, and president of theLegislative Assembly of Para. Graduated in business administration, he worked onseveral development projects in Amazonia. He was also state secretary ofTransportation. Presently, he has no political party.

Analysis of the interview

The senator is prolix and little consistent. He has positive references aboutUnesco's work, but demonstrates an extremely low level of knowledge about itsactions. He states that Unesco is away from the National Congress, but he believesthat it is important to have it as a partner to congressmen. He can be a mediatorfor actions in the northern region.

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- Unesco's image ranges between good and excellent. We can see that it is anorganisation that has been contributing with support to the country. And thistends to grow and reach an increasing space from now on. Today, the NGOs aretaking more and more space. Organisations such as the UN and its network aregrowing in importance. It has a very good image.

- Education in first place and possibly environment in second. Education isessential. Our view is that in today'S society, the society of information, and thesociety that values the intelligence aggregated to each product - this has beenhistorically demonstrated - the country cannot evolve without education....Besides that, the environment is another important issue being discussed today inthe world together with the very capitalist development model. The world has tothink from another perspective, because in the world of capitalism and consumption,natural resources will eventually be exhausted. There is a research demonstratingthat when a society such as China, India, and Brazil levels with the United Statesand Europe the world will end. There is no way to generate resources.

- My general impression is that Unesco in Brazil is contributing to eradicatepoverty. Certainly, there are few institutions honestly dedicated to creatingconditions for this work. So, naturally, if we were to rate Unesco's work asinsignificant, average, or great, it would be ranked between insignificant andaverage, in view of our necessities. But in face of the absence, or scarcity of

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bodies to work on this, to provide guidelines, and do things, it really makes adifference.

- When compared to other international cooperation organisations working inBrazil, Unesco's image is hard to be told from them. I admit I cannot do that. Ireally do not see any difference in terms of their images. I would classify them allbetween good and excellent. Now, Unesco draws more attention because itperforms in the area of education, which is an essential issue.

- Unesco's future as we see it will require a change in the way it works, indirectlyand with partnerships. Perhaps this is not Unesco's role, but I would like to saythe following. Today, there is a process of decentralisation of the central pUblicpower as it is known, a super powerful state-nation. Power is being graduallytransferred and decentralised. So, some kind of bottom-to-top revolution is emergingin Brazil. There are several communities developed through decentralisationprograms carried out by the government. The privatisation process also caused anevacuation of the federal power. So, what do we see? Today, there is a network, agreat dispersion of communities within Brazil. But maybe Unesco does not havethe structure to carry this out.

- You should definitely penetrate all these communities, perhaps with instrumentssuch as the Internet and others. But this is the way: to strengthen the outer ends,to be close to the outer ends and obtain reinforcement.

- Regarding Unesco's presence here at the Congress, at least at my level and as Isee it, I would say this connection is essential. I think it still leaves a lot to bedesired. And here I am referring to the Congress and the Senate themselves. Let'ssay it is an access door to communities. In fact, ultimately it is a mediationbetween the community and the power. So, it is an important channel for Unesco.It should have a greater presence. Yes, it is very absent.

- For instance, we see that the federal government and the Executive Power actby means of a parliamentary assessorship. So, I suggest the following: you shouldhave a parliamentary assessorship and make pUblicity. You should use theInternet. Today, MEC and other bodies have journals that supply information tothe senators. Since you have such a good image, I mean, since it is relatively easyfor you to penetrate the Senate and several structures in the country's power, youshould use it more. You have a good product that is easy to be transmitted.

- First, through a parliamentary assessorship. Secondly, always thinking about

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something that can be taken to the congressman's constituency. I will make acomment from my own experience here. Our society, at least in our case, the stateof Para, is very disorganised. So, how should a senator perform? Of course we donot have the technical structure in our offices to say, "I will carry out projects inthe area of education and even in health". There is no such thing. So, how shouldit be? In the area of education, the federal university, the councils in the area,and everything else should get together and send suggestions to the senator. Thesame should be done in civil engineering, in basic sanitation, and in several otherareas. Unfortunately, our society does not act like that yet, as opposed to firstworld countries.

- An organisation such as Unesco could help establish an interlocution withthe original constituencies, regions, and states of the congressmen. This wouldcertainly produce spectacular results. You could even verify, for instance, whatthe demand is - in the area where you perform: education, environment, or evenhealth - in these communities. You would organise it and bring suggestions to thecongressman. You know, the congressman is someone strange in our country! As Isaid, the view I used to have before I came here was that this functioned in amore organised manner. There are so many entities, so many societies in Brazil!There are construction workers unions and such. The people fight so much.They do so many marches and mobilisations during the elections and politicalcampaigns. Yet, they do not mobilise to give suggestions. It seems like the oldstory in Brazil where the government is the old daddy organising everything forsociety. Today the message is quite the opposite: society has to do it. Perhaps thiswould be the way for Unesco. You could for instance use one of your technicalteams, on the issues you deal with, and make suggestions for the congressmen.You could even use the Internet and say, "We suggest that congressmen carry outa project in this area. Here is the idea". From then on, there is an excellenttechnical body in the Senate, a consultancy that could add ideas and improve it.

- In specific regard to Amazonia, the challenge is to find a way to take sustainabledevelopment to it, protecting the environment and also fostering human developmentfor the native communities. And education is a way. As I said, education in ouropinion is the basis for everything. Education has to come first. Even in the areaof health, when you come and advise a family - and you have more data than uson that - when you teach them how to make homemade serum you are helping tosolve infantile mortality. Thus, education if the basis of everything. And thisapplies to the development of Amazonia and to the environment. I am not surethis is Unesco's role. But there must be some other organisation or another way todo this mediation. Why? What do we see? On one side, ecologists do not want the

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forest to be touched. On the other, population representatives, people who livein the region say, "l cannot leave it this way. The man will live forever in dependence,in the misery of the region". Take a look at the Human Development Index. Inspite of the great natural resources, all the processes to treat aluminium, the greatindustries, and the great generation of energy in the state, the population is poor.The level of need is tremendous. What is the breakpoint? What guidelines can begiven? We need to get together, and in this sense Unesco has a crucial role amongthe international organisations. I do not know, perhaps a congress or a seminar.

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24. Representative Nelson Pellegrino

Current president of the Commission of Human Rights of the House ofRepresentatives, he is in his first mandate as a federal representative for the stat ofBahia, and he integrates the bench of the Workers Party (PT). He was also a staterepresentative twice consecutively. A lawyer, he was a legal consultant for severalworkers unions. His congress performance is focused on human and social rights.

Analysis of the interview

The interview was given by fax and, therefore, there was no interaction. However,the representative demonstrates to have a good image of Unesco and expresses somegeneric references about its work. He is an active and devoted congressman thatoccupies a strategic function, with whom Unesco should develop a closer relationship.

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- The image I have of Unesco is that of an active international organisation,mainly in the areas of education, human rights, and protection of the historic­cultural heritage. I consider the contribution rendered by Unesco to Brazil verypositive. But I do not have enough elements or criteria to assess the performanceof its office in the country.

- I believe that Unesco works in Brazil to eradicate poverty and support socialdevelopment. I believe yes. You can tell that by the results of surveys commissioned byUnesco on these issues. They are often published and effectively stimulate these actions.

- Obviously, all the issues developed by it are important. But if we are to pointout, say, four of those issues for greater efforts by Unesco, I would choose education,social communication and computers, human rights, and youth.

- At first, I do not see any problems regarding Unesco's work with governmentsand civil entities. I believe that it is important to have definite strategies andguidelines to avoid that the organisation's prestige be used to support or validatepolitical segments in power.

- I believe that each of the international organisations among the UN agenciesperforms its role. I do not have elements to compare.

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- According to the infonnation available to me, Unesco keeps a productive rela­tionship with the National Congress and its commissions. My recommendation isthat it supply all federal representatives and senators with the greatest volumepossible of data and suggestions that can serve as input to parliamentary action.

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25. Representative Inocencio Oliveira

Elected federal representative seven times consecutively for the state ofPernambuco, he integrates the bench of the Liberal Front Party (PFL). He waspresident of the House of Representatives, where he is the leader of his party forthe second time. He is graduated in Medical School.

Analysis of the interview

This interview was sent by fax and, therefore, there was no interaction. Thelaconic result demonstrates that the representative does not pay any attention tothe social area or, otherwise, is totally outdated despite Unesco's strong presencein the Brazilian media. Unesco should supply information especially directed tohim and his assessorship.

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- Unesco is very weak in Brazil. It does not perform well and does not participate.It is always connected to the elites.

- I do not believe that Unesco contributes to poverty eradication or to socialdevelopment in Brazil. It acts more for a small elite that takes notice of itsprograms. Its activity is perhaps more targeted to Africa.

- I think all the issues in Unesco's mandate deserve more efforts.

- I think it is essential that it work in partnership with the government.

- I do not think there are partnerships between Unesco and civil entities.

- All the international organisations are the same. They do not act.

- I do not perceive a relationship between Unesco and the National Congress.There is not one.

- I think Unesco could look for the Congress commissions and congressmen that aredirectly involved with the issues within its mandate, to find out how to provide help.Besides, it could send annual reports on its activities and the schedule for future actions.

- My assessment of Unesco's office in Brazil in not positive. I do not see any contribution.

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26. Senator Eduardo Suplicy

Elected a senator of the Republic in 1991 and re-elected in 1991, he representsthe state of Sao Paulo and integrates the bench of the Workers party (Pr). A professor,economist, and business administrator, he was federal representative, state repre­sentative, councillor, and president of the Sao Paulo City Council. His congressperformance is targeted to the defence of democracy, freedom, and citizen'srights. He works in favour of the control of pUblic expenditures and of actions toeradicate misery such as the programs of basic income connected with education.

Analysis of the interview

The senator has an excellent image of Unesco and demonstrates relative specificknowledge. Besides, he takes the opportunity to indirectly request the support ofUnesco both for his campaign in favour of the unconditional basic income and forthe Programa Bolsa-Escola in progress in the Sao Paulo City Hall. A pre-candidateto the Presidency of the Republic, he is one of the most active and respectedparliamentarians in the National Congress, which emphasises his endorsement ofUnesco's actions and his willingness to participate in joint actions.

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- Unesco's work in Brazil is important to support proposals and projects targetedto human development. It contributes to social justice and equality in conformitywith UN's objectives.

- An important issue from which others stem refers to the quality of democraticinstitutions that provide the population with the necessary means to overcomeproblems usually caused by the market. These can be caused either by the waypower is exerted by those who possess great influence or resources, or by socio­economic inequalities that can also worsen the quality of the environment. It isnecessary freedom of expression and organisation so that the population can fUllyparticipate in democracy.

- Other important issues involving Unesco's engagement are the promotion ofeducation and the support to scientific and technologic development. It has beenuseful also in the area of health. Unesco's collaboration has been very important,providing support in the prevention of aids, in the guarantee of a basic income,and also in the bolsa-escola programs. Unesco's next step should be engage itselfin the implementation of the unconditional basic income, as I describe it in my

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new book "Towards citizenship income", which I am about to finish. In otherwords, we should go past the basic income tied to education and guarantee a newincome to assure everyone the satisfaction of vital needs such as citizenship andpersonal freedom. This has already been the object of debate in the Basic IncomeEuropean Network and in the Basic Income Earth Network, as can be seen in mysite at the Senate.

- Unesco undoubtedly collaborates to provide support to many initiatives by theCongress, through its several commissions, such as on the debates about theeradication of poverty. On several occasions, Jorge Werthein has been present.

- Although I do not know them closely, I think that Unesco's partnerships arevery positive. But Jorge Werthein told me that he would support Marta in theimplementation of the bolsa-escola in Sao Paulo.

- Among the international organisations, I know part of what Unesco does. Butsometimes it is hard to know, for instance, where Unesco and Unicef stand. Theseand other agencies sometimes overlap or seem to crossover.

- Regarding the partnership between Unesco and the Senate, we, congressmen,could know better what fields Unesco works in and how it could intensify its workwith the commissions. I for one have had the chance to attest on that. I am highlyinterested in obtaining Unesco's collaboration, even in view of my pre-candidatureto the Presidency of the Republic. I have an interest in promoting a debate on thebasic universal income, as proposed by Thomas Payne, as well as in everythingthat can be done not only in Brazil, but also in the world. The Alca issue, forinstance, is such an important issue.

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Conclusionsand recommendations

In recent years Unesco has been constantly present in the House of Representativesand in the Senate, particularly in the permanent commissions dedicated to issuespertaining to its institutional mandate, such as education, culture, communication,health, social security, and human rights, among others. By means of a numberof personal contacts with congressmen, and also by hosting events, participatingin pUblic hearings, and other joint initiatives, Unesco has established a productiverelationship with the National Congress. In order to assess the present status ofsuch a relationship, a sample of opinions has been drawn from a group ofrepresentatives and senators selected among those more in tune with Unesco'smandate. The results and conclusions are summed up and transcribed below.

- By developing actions at the National Congress, Unesco stands out from theother international agencies working in Brazil. These agencies do not develop aconstant relationship with congressmen and, therefore, miss an opportunity tointeract with the significant production of the permanent commissions, whoseattributions go far beyond legislative activities.

- The interchange between Unesco's technicians and the congressmen is consideredto be useful for the works of the House of Representatives and the Senate, in thatexperiences with social pUblic policies in other countries are presented, whichcontributes to both legislative production and control over government actions.

- By working in partnership with federal representatives and senators, Unescocan expand its penetration into such a continental country as Brazil. Sincecongressmen have their constituencies spread throughout the whole nationalterritory, they represent potential mUltipliers of Unesco's institutional messagesand technical contents.

- Another benefit of the partnership between Unesco and congressmen stems fromthe political-ideological plurality. Since Unesco works with representatives andsenators regardless of their party memberships, such status makes it the closestpartner of the Brazilian society (through its legitimate representatives), in coun­terpoint with its strong cooperation with the federal government (whose political

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support basis spectrum is less comprehensive). In other words, this partnershiprepresents more of a complementary strategy of cooperation with the country'scitizens than simply with its governors, not excluding the partnerships with civilentities.

- The apparent success of the partnership between Unesco and the NationalCongress calls for the expansion of its interchange with the Brazilian politicalscene. This will allow for joint actions with the main Legislative Assemblies andCity Councils in the country, building up a potential strategy for the dissemina­tion of its programs and projects with the support of congressmen.

- Though restricted to a select and distinct target pUblic, the survey in progressshows that the presence of Unesco as an active agent in the Brazilian publicsphere highlights the value of the interinstitutional debate.

- Due to technical competencies and credibility earned along 55 years of world­wide action, Unesco can both endorse correct national policies and also act as anattentive observer. It can call for possible direction adjustments, based on aconstant international comparative analysis that serves as a compass forcongressmen, civil society, and decision-makers at several government levels.

- For a developing country such as Brazil, in search of international acknowledgement,having Unesco as a partner is essential. For Unesco, in turn, having the NationalCongress as a partner reinforces its worldwide presence as an institution thatpromotes democratic development as an instrument to combat poverty and fostersustainable human development.

- Several spontaneous and always favourable references to Unesco's Representativein Brazil, Jorge Werthein, praising his ability to articulate and his free access tocongressmen from all political streams, besides his proactive role regarding thecommissions at the National Congress should also be mentioned.

- Most congressmen interviewed stated that among the international bodies workingin Brazil, Unesco is UN's agency that enjoys the greatest visibility and highestparticipation in the pUblic sphere. Some positive references have been made toUnicef (negative ones were also made in one instance) and next WHO and UNDPwere also mentioned positively.

- Nonetheless, by and large the congressmen intenriewed are unaware of the UNsystem in Brazil. In this sense, a joint effort of the agencies is recommended in

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order to divulge Unesco's activities to senators and federal representatives, andalso to truly influence pUblic policies in the social field in tune with the worldagenda for human and social rights.

- Unesco's institutional image with most respondents ranged from good to excellent.However, only one third of the surveyed universe was able to clearly identifyspecific actions of Unesco in Brazil. This demonstrates a visible unawareness ofits forms of activity. In this sense, an extra effort is recommended towards thistarget public (members of the Congress and respective offices) with views tobroadening the dissemination of Unesco's actions, as well as to promoting themain issues of its mandate so that forms of cooperation partnership can beencontemplated.

- When encouraged to comment on Unesco's partnerships with the governmentand civil entities, the majority demonstrated approval and appraisal regarding themethod. A significant portion of them recommended that Unesco should workmore in partnership with NGOs so that greater representativeness and closenesswith the communities can be achieved. Only a small number of people expressedprejUdice against civil entities, in particular regarding transparency and technicalcompetence, and also foreign interference with domestic affairs. A small numberof them also showed concern with Unesco's partnerships with the federalgovernment, referring to possible political-constituency exploitation of the goodimage of an international agency when endorsing government actions.

- As to Unesco's presence at the National Congress, only a minority did not knowabout it. And the majority fUlly approve of this strategy. Respondents recommendthat Unesco should intensify this presence by making it more effective andsystematic. Some of them even said that Unesco should register a congressassessorship. They also demonstrate interest in receiving periodic information,including suggestions of legislative proposals. In this particular sense, it can beconcluded that, at least among the target pUblic surveyed, there is a high willingnessto acknowledge initiatives from Unesco in diverse forms, from the hosting ofevents to sensitisation campaigns.

- The analysis of the statements of most congressmen interviewed points out thatUnesco is a legitimate organisation, with the technical competency and pUbliccredibility required to perform the proactive role of informing and sensitisingsenators and federal representatives towards the promotion of social development.It is also clear that both Unesco's mandate issues and its partnership actions areapproved of.

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- Since among the main international agencies that work in Brazil Unesco holdsvirtually exclusive presence with congressmen, it could potentially play a leadingrole in a systematic articulation between them and the Congress, should that beof interest.

- The issue of combating poverty is still unclear, both as a priority and as part ofthe mandate. A few interviewees consider it part of the activities; others see it asbeing indirectly attended to; and a considerable portion does not identify it as oneof Unesco's concerns. In fact, some claim that Unesco has an elitist performance,while others say it should approach the lowest layers of society.

Added to the support to Unesco's actions at the National Congress, there were sev­eral suggestions that it should also act jointly with the Legislative Bodies andMunicipal Assemblies of some capitals as a way of achieving rural areas and cities,expanding the scope of its mandate.

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