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    (http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/)

    ‘SACRIFICES OF

    ANDREI

    TARKOVSKY’: A

    PRECIOUS INSIGHT

    INTO THE LIFE OF

    THE MAN TO WHOM

    WE OWE SO DAMN

    MUCH

    http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/

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    Had he lived, Andrei Tarkovsky would have celebrated

    his 84th birthday two days ago. One of the greatestpoets of the silver screen and our eternal hero we’ll

    continue to worship until he draw our last filmloving

    breaths, Tarkovsky died young, in exile, but was turned into

    a myth through the love of his art, the mystery of his

    character and the intrigue and tragedy of his life. The

    filmmaker to whom film scholars often attribute “the

    invention of a new cinematic language” made only seven

    feature films through the course of his career, but practically all of them became classics you simply can’t avoid in your

    personal quest of exploring the incredible depths and scope

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    of the world of film. The legacy, influence and sheer power

    of his films continue to mesmerize today, more than a half 

    of century after his feature film debut, Ivan’s Childhood , was

    made. For those of you who want to learn more about the

    Russian master, who’d like to explore both his work and life

    in more detail, the 2012 documentary called Sacrifices of 

     Andrei Tarkovsky  is a legitimate, even highly recommendedoption. This 54-minute-long film was made in 2012

    specifically for the 80th anniversary of Tarkovsky’s birth.

    The author is Denis Trofimov, and his work is distinguished

    by his use of rather unique materials providing a precious

    insight into the years Tarkovsky spent in Florence, Italy. The

    documentary is further elevated by the personal accounts of 

    friends and professionals who had the privilege of working

     with him, like actor Oleg Yankovsky and screenwriter

    Tonino Guerra. Moreover, Sacrifices of Andrei Tarkovsky 

    allows the viewers access to the shooting locations of 

    masterpieces such as Stalker , Nostalghia  andThe Sacrifice ,

    at the same time examining his relationship with his crew,

    the meaning of Solaris  and to what degreeMirror  reflects

    Tarkovsky’s personal life. There are plenty of treats here that we simply don’t want to spoil in the introduction: the house

    in which Nostalgia  was made, parts of the cultTime of 

    Travel  documentary, even images of young Tarkovsky on

    set… The documentary is a must-watch, as it seemingly 

    effortlessly brings us closer to the man to whom

    contemporary filmmaking owes so damn much. As always,

    thanks to Charles

    M(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnWhoZnGUmDsE6WHZJOJoCw/videos) ,a fantastic YouTube account dedicated to Andrei Tarkovsky 

    related materials.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnWhoZnGUmDsE6WHZJOJoCw/videos

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    The following interview with Andrei Tarkovsky was

    conducted by Aleksandr Lipkov on February 1, 1967. It

    originally appeared in Literaturnoe obozrenie 1988: 74–80. It

    is published atnostalghia.com(https://people.ucalgary.ca/~tstronds/nostalghia.com/)

    for the first time in English. Translation copyright by Robert

    Bird (University of Chicago, Slavic Languages and

    Literatures).

    THE PASSION ACCORDING TO ANDREI:

    AN UNPUBLISHED INTERVIEW WITH

    ANDREI TARKOVSKY

    When I am asked: “How did you approach the historical

    Sacri⌁ces of Andrei Tarkovsky (2012) / Жертвоприно  

    00:00 / 00:00

    https://people.ucalgary.ca/~tstronds/nostalghia.com/

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    theme in your film; what were your ideas of a historical

    film; what conception of history did you profess?” I become

    uncomfortable. I don’t want to divide cinema up into genres

    for it has so merged with viewer experience that, like this

    experience, it cannot be fragmented. The meaning of cinema

    and its colossal popularity is based on the fact that the

     viewer approaches it in search of his own un-accumulatedexperience, so to speak. I am not speaking of inexperience in

    life, but of the fact that our age offers one such a large

    amount of information and people are so busy that they do

    not have time sometimes even to find out what is

    surrounding them on a day-to-day basis. Cinema’s task is to

    substitute for this lacking experience. It stands before the

     very serious and profound task of speaking truthfully andsincerely, never deceiving the viewer. And if this viewer goes

    to see even wholly commercial films, this doesn’t mean that

    he likes them. Perhaps he doesn’t even know himself what

    draws him to the cinema. I think that he is drawn by the

    need for knowledge, the desire to hear questions that arise

    for his contemporaries, and the aspiration to participate in

    the solving of problems which he has no time for in life.

     As far as our film is concerned, as contemporary artist we

    naturally made the film about issues that relate to us as

     well.

    I don’t know a single artist, regardless of whether he paints

    canvasses or makes films, writes poetry or casts sculpture,

     who would aspire only to restore the past and remain within

    the limits of historiography. Take Shakespeare, Pushkin, orTolstoy. All of them were concerned with wholly 

    contemporary issues when they wrote about Julius Caesar,

    Boris Godunov, or the war of 1812. The same goes for us. Of 

    course we collected material, read sources and historical and

    historiographical works, based ourselves on chronicles, on

    the studies of art historians dedicated to Rublev and his

    contemporaries, and on everything that we could read about

    the epoch. And yet we were concerned with other issues.

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    (http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/wp-

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    The first is the role of the artist in society. We wanted the

     viewer to leave the film with the idea that the artist is

    society’s conscience as its most sensitive organ who is most

    perceptive to what occurs around it. A great artist is able to

    make masterpieces because he is capable of seeing othersclearer and to perceive the world with joy or exaggerated

    pain. For us Rublev was such an artist.

    One might think that the scope of his art and its influence

    on those around him were quite limited. One might think 

    that, living in the time he was fated to live in, he could see

    nothing but tragedy. This was a tough and blood-drenched

    epoch for Rus, which had not yet coalesced as a nation and was gripped by internecine conflict and suffered annual

    raids by the Tatars. One might think that Rublev had

    nothing to lean on in his environment in order to create any 

    radiant images. And yet he did not carry the terrifying

    images of his time over onto his boards. As if in protest, in

    opposition to what surrounded him and to the reigning

    political atmosphere in Rus, in literally all of his works this

    artist bore forth the idea of brotherhood, cooperation, andmutual love. He incarnates the ethical ideal of his time.

    I know no great work of art in all of world culture that

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     would not be linked to an ethical ideal, that is based on

    some other motives such as on the dark aspects of life. There

    some talented works of such a nature, but no masterpieces.

    (http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/wp-

    content/uploads/2016/04/21848_original.jpg?e51333)

    What about Picasso’s Guernica? 

    I will address that. An artist’s oeuvre is always composed of 

     various works, especially for such a tireless seeker as

    Picasso, who has painted hundreds or even thousands of 

    sheets and pages. He never stops at what he has achieved,

    although he has always spoken of the same things. Compare

    him to Tolstoy, let’s say, with his most profound work Warand Peace: here you will see on one hand a furious protest

    against everything dark in life, and on the other hand an

    affirmation of joy, love for man, faith in him and in the

    power of his soul, in the ability of his reason to work out the

    most complex problems, and a readiness to stand firm in the

    face of severe examination. This is only natural. Life is

     varied, it is composed of contrasting planes, and by focusing

    on only one of them an artist will illuminate it one-sidedly,failing to give his word, the screen or the painted canvas a

    complete image of the world and to comprehend the true

    profundity of phenomena.

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    Take for example Raphael’s Sistine Madonna. She is

    beautiful and humane precisely because of the tragic plot

    that lies at her base. A plot that is commonly known and is

    taken from the Gospels: Mary must sacrifice her son to

    people. But the artist humanized the Mother of God;

    although from the religious point of view she was not even a

    person, in a certain sense, he depicts her precisely as aperson. The power of the work’s effect is due to the fact that

    Mary is afraid and suffers in the face of events which await

    her son. She knows that everything is foreordained, that the

    infant was born for torments, and that she is obliged to give

    him up, but on her face one reads not only fear but also a

    question for people and hope that what is foreordained will

    not occur. This precise balance between preordination andhope is what creates that deeply human image, which is

    turned towards us and raises the work to the height of a

    masterpiece.

    One may cite a multitude of other examples. All of Chaplin

    is based on the tragic content of plots in which a small and

    cowed man, abused by the capitalist city, tries in some way 

    to preserve himself and to oppose to the oppressivecircumstances: his individuality, some kind of craftiness, or

    complexity of character. In a word, the essence of Chaplin’s

    character, borne by the artist through numerous pictures, is

    the combination of a profoundly tragic content and comic

    form, which is disarmingly humane, full of love for people,

    goodness, and sympathy.

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    (http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/wp-

    content/uploads/2016/04/tczNokN.jpg?e51333)

    I think that by concealing the shadowy aspects of life it is

    impossible to reveal deeply and fully what is beautiful in

    life. All the processes occurring in the world are born from

    the battle between old and new, between what has died and

     what is accumulating strength for life. And the cinema, like

    any other art, is mostly interested in this process: life in its

    movement. All great works are based on this. Rublev is a

    genius because his work is oriented towards the future: in

    difficult times, when the nation could only dream of a life

     without war, without violence, and of the most elementary 

    happiness and calm, when it was not allowed even to open

    its mouth to cry out in protest, precisely at this time Rublev 

    created his Trinity, all of which cries out, thirsts goodness,calm, and harmony in people’s interrelations.

    We wanted to show that Andrei Rublev’s art was a protest

    against the order that reigned at that time, against the

    blood, the betrayal, the oppression. Living at a terrifying

    time, he eventually arrives at the necessity of creating and

    carries through all of his life the idea of brotherhood, love

    for peace, a radiant worldview, and the idea of Rus’sunification in the face of the Tatar yoke. We found it

    extremely important, both from the historical and the

    contemporary viewpoints, to express these thoughts.

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    Unfortunately we succeeded in relating only a portion of 

     what has been written about the epoch in historical sources.

    It was so blood-drenched that literally every page of the

    chronicles and of historical studies tells us about betrayal,

    desertion, treason, blood, arson, Tatar raids, destruction,

    death and so on and so forth. In our picture we were able to

    show not even half of that for our story was also about a lotof other things and it is necessary to preserve a certain

    proportion in order to avoid distorting the truth. Our

    historical consultants who read the screenplay did not find

    any departures from the historiography.

    (http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/wp-

    content/uploads/2016/04/PAR279283.jpg?e51333)

    The recreated epoch interested us not only in our search foran answer to the question concerning the meaning of true

    art. Our Andrei Rublev passes through the narrative not as

    the main protagonist. For us he provided the occasion and

    ground for speaking about what is most important: the

    spiritual and ethical power of the Russian nation which,

    even in a state of absolute oppression, proved itself capable

    of creating hugely spiritual values. Confirmation of this is

    given both by Andrei Rublev and by the architects who areblinded on the prince’s order, and the young craftsman

    Boriska who casts a bell at the end of our picture. We set

    ourselves the task of seeing and revealing the sources of the

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    Russian nation’s indestructible creative energy in that

    distant epoch, of its strength, and therefore also of our

    authorial faith in this strength. And at the same time we

     wanted in a way to tell our viewers about themselves, so to

    speak, to knock on their door and tell them: “Each of you is

    capable of a moral labor,” to awaken in them the desire to

    create—in the broadest meaning of this word. It is notnecessary to paint icons or cast bells (after all our film is

    historical, and is therefore to some degree a trope), but, for

    example, to build homes or do some other necessary work.

    We made our picture with the greatest love for the people

     whose stories we were telling. It was they who bore on their

    shoulders the future of our culture and of all our life.

     As an example of a man from the people who incarnates the

    principle of creativity we drew the bell-founder Boriska,

    played by Nikolai Burliaev. His vivacity, his self-confidence,

    his unshakeable desire to work, to create almost to the point

    of emaciation, until exhaustion knocks him from his feet and

    makes him fall asleep literally right there in the mud and

    clay, all of this makes him a kind of harbinger of great

    historical events. For us this was practically a young Peter

    the Great (naturally on a very limited scale) who will

    awaken Russia, shake it to its foundations, and change its

    face.

     Another important problem of the picture is the so-called

     vow of silence which Andrei Rublev gives in response to the

    terrifying events of surrounding life.

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    (http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/wp-

    content/uploads/2016/04/30053_original.jpg?e51333)

    We, the authors of the film, make Andrei fall silent. But that

    doesn’t mean that we share his position. On the contrary,

    the subsequent episodes were intended to persuade the

     viewer that Rublev’s vow of silence was ridiculous and

    insignificant in the face of impending events, which Andreias an artist is no longer able to respond to in any way, in

     which he is incapable of interfering in. For us this silence is

    filled with the broadest, most abstract, and even symbolic

    meaning. The very episode during which he is silent sees the

    main events connected to the denouement.

    The film has a character of the village idiot girl, the blessed

    girl [blazhennaia], who suddenly departs with the Tatars.She simply takes a liking to one of them and takes off with

    him. Only a madman at that time could see something

    radiant and joyful in these conquerors. And the fact that she

    is retarded was intended to underscore the ridiculous nature

    of the situation: no normal man could have acted in this

    fashion. And Andrei should have interfered and prevented

    his ward from being harmed (after all in Rus the blessed

     were revered as saints: harming a blessed one or holy fool

    [iurodivyi] was at that time horribly sinful), but he doesn’t

    interfere; he gave his vow and cannot say a word. Andrei

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    not only fails to step in for his neighbor, but is even

    incapable of standing up for himself. The jester

    [skomorokh], played by Rolan Bykov, thinks that Andrei

     was the one who denounced him to the guards because he

    noticed Andrei among the spectators for whom he danced

    and sang those rather frivolous but socially risqué songs

    about a boyar. And much later, after returning from exile,beaten and having suffered many torments, the buffoon

    accuses Rublev of betrayal amongst a crowd of people, and

    he can’t defend himself and explain his innocence; he is

    mute. People come to him and call him to paint the walls of 

    the Trinity Cathedral, but again he is silent. He is shut up in

    himself, has buried his talent in the ground, and behaves

    like a madman. Everything is upside-down. Rublev not only acts in a manner unbecoming to a normal man, but also in a

    manner unbecoming to an honest man who loves his nation,

    to a citizen. And it is only Boriska who, with the force of his

    conviction, with his faith, the obsession with which he puts

    all of himself into the casting of the bell, wakes Andrei from

    his silence. The strength, the visible strength of human

    creativity, resilience, and faith in one’s calling makes Rublev 

    break his sinful vow.

    In this manner we wanted to express the human ideas that

    our own day needs. We tried never to depart from facts in

    our depiction of Russia as she was in that epoch, but at the

    same time to illuminate what we depicted with a new

    ideological attitude. Naturally we understand that the reality 

     was somewhat different, that we do not command sufficient

    knowledge to reconstruct everything as it actually was inhistory, and that if we suddenly got such an opportunity 

    then the ideas which emerge from our story would not be

    the same. But as contemporary artists we consider ourselves

    empowered to express our own view of Rublev and his time

    and to tell of our own issues. We wanted the protagonist’s

    character and the atmosphere of his epoch to express our

    demands from contemporary artists, our faith in the Russian

    nation, and our belief in its creative power. It seemedextremely important to speak of this today.

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    (http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/wp-

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    In your view how is it possible to reconcile the historical

    truth with the tendentiousness of contemporary artists? There is no need to reconcile them. It will work out in any 

    case, even if you only set yourself the task of reconstructing

    reality on the basis of historical materials. Artists are

    tendentious and are obliged to be so. Whether they want to

    be so or not, they are tendentious. If they speak up on

    something they are already expressing some kind of opinion,

    some kind of attitude.

    In the film we are speaking about Andrei’s character, about

    the meaning of his art, and about his perception of his

    surroundings. And no historiographer can tell us that things

     were different. After all nothing is known about this.

     Violence against the material is not only admissible, but

    even necessary. Any events which the artist describes will

    always be deformed according to the ideas he professes.

    To what extent did you concern yourself with the precise

    reconstruction of everyday objects and cultural monuments? 

    We shot our film in Vladimir, Suzdal’, on the Nerl river, in

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    Pskov, Izborsk, Pechery, and among architectural

    monuments from that era of the fourteenth-fifteenth

    centuries. But at the same time we always tried to avoid a

    museum-like attitude towards history. That is to say we did

    not seek to present these architectural monuments in any 

    special way, we treated them in the manner in which, if we

     were shooting a film about modern life, we would treatregular buildings like those on the street. It was the same

     way with everyday objects; we wanted to avoid treating

    them as props or something exotic; we wanted the objects of 

    material culture to be perceived from the screen just as the

    things that surround us in daily life are perceived. In this

    respect everything in the film is absolutely precise. The main

    thing for us was always the events themselves, the peoplethat acted in them, and the characters of these people.

    (http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/wp-

    content/uploads/2016/04/30605_original.jpg?e51333)

    One could probably say the same about the language of the

    film? 

     Yes, about the language, about the montage, and about our

     working method with actors: everything was in this way. We

     wanted to make a picture that would be comprehensible tothe modern viewer without departing from the truth,

     without resorting to some special plastic expressivity that

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    underscores the theme’s historicism and raises the story onto

    the “buskins of eternity,” which removes the protagonists

    from the real earth. In this respect Eisenstein’s historical

    films, for example, demonstrate the opposite tendency. In

    his films if he shows a chair, for example, then it looks like a

    palace. He plays on it as if it was the most unique relic from

    the Kremlin Armoury. We thought that such an attitude

    distracts viewers and obscures his perception of what is

    most important, while we tried to concentrate all attention

    on the problems, on the psychology of actions, and on

    human characters. We wanted the screen to provide, so to

    speak, a chronicle of the fifteenth century, to make the

    distance in time as unnoticeable and as shortened as

    possible. We tried not to shock and not to surprise, but tomake the viewer feel all of it as flesh of the flesh, blood of 

    the blood of Russia.

    But the cruelty in the film is shown precisely to shock and

    stun the viewers. And this may even repel them. 

    No, I don’t agree. This does not hinder viewer perception.

    Moreover we did all this quite sensitively. I can name films

    that show much more cruel things, compared to which ourslooks quite modest. True, we showed this aspect of life in

    concentrated fashion, but at the same time with reserve.

    Moreover, as I have said, the time was so cruel that in this

    manner, increasing the tension in individual parts, we were

    able to preserve the necessary balance between the dark and

    light aspects of the time, a balance that was required by our

    fidelity to historical truth.

    God, look at the chronicles. At that very same time in the

    fifteenth century Dmitrii, the prince of Smolensk, started

    eying the wife of one of his neighboring princes. Note that

    there were no social reasons for hostility, he simply “coveted

    his neighbor’s wife.” So what did he do? He attacked his

    neighbor, killed him, burnt his lands, sacked the city, killed

    a mass of people, and captured the prince’s wife. However,

    despite her reputation as a somewhat frivolous woman, sherefused to go to him. Then he ordered her quartered on the

    square and thrown into the river Tver’. And our chronicles

    are filled with such events. One can’t simply be silent about

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    it. Otherwise we would violate the truth of history.

    (http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/wp-

    content/uploads/2016/04/456.jpg?e51333)

    I know why you mention this. It’s all because of those

    rumors… We didn’t burn the cow: she was covered in

    asbestos. And we took the horse from the slaughterhouse. If 

     we didn’t kill her that day, she would have been killed the

    next day in the same way. We did not think up any special

    torments, so to speak, for the horse.

    When The Battleship Potemkin was released Eisenstein was

    accused of all manner of things. They couldn’t forgive him

    the maggots in the meat, the woman’s runny eye, or the

    invalid who jumps around on his stumps, nor the famous

    pram that rolls down the staircase. It’s easy to say now: “Oh,

    Potemkin!” But what didn’t the director have to put up with

    at the time? Talk to people who witnessed all of this. They 

    can tell you more. It’s always the same, this isn’t the first

    time. We are judged not by what we did or wanted to do,

    but we are judged by people who don’t want to understand

    the work as a whole or even to look at it. Instead they 

    isolate individual fragments and details, clutching to themand trying to prove that there is some special, main point in

    them. This is delirium, it’s metaphysics that has nothing to

    do with an analysis of the work. And this occurs not only 

    http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/456.jpg?e51333

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     with respect to my picture. You see the same thing left and

    right. I want you to keep that in the interview.

    Compare it to a mosaic. You can stick your nose into some

    fragment, beat it with your fist, and yell: “Why is it black 

    here? It shouldn’t be black here! I don’t like looking at

    black!” But you have to look at a mosaic from afar and onthe whole, and if you change one color the whole thing falls

    apart.

    (http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/wp-

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    Too often we judge things by the details. We criticize a

     work, taking some detail out of it, not wanting tounderstand the function it performs in the whole. If we

    didn’t say anything about the cruelty of the epoch I am sure

    that the novella about the bell would never have attained

    such power, and the music and Rublev’s painting that is shot

    in color would not sound the same. Only here, together with

    the last shot, perhaps, does the general idea of the film

    develop. Unless we take pains about the separate details

     without contemplating the functional significance they havefor the whole, we are not artists. And critics who judge us in

    this way are not critics. As far as the general idea of the film

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    is concerned, I do not doubt it for an instant and am totally 

    convinced that I am right, as is everyone else in fact. But we

    are pecked at for trifles…

    How do you view other directors who have worked in the

    genre of historical films? Eisenstein in particular. 

    It is difficult for me to speak about him because I am afraidof being misunderstood. Beyond a doubt, I consider

    Eisenstein a great director and regard him highly. I really 

    love Strike, The Battleship Potemkin, and The Old and the

    New, but I cannot accept his historical pictures. I think they 

    are unusually theatrical. Incidentally, Dovzhenko spoke

    exhaustively about this; perhaps they had some kind of 

    problem with each other. Major artists often have sharp

    conflicts amongst themselves, but in any case his words “A 

    daytime opera” seem correct. Because everything is flimsy.

    Cinema should capture life in the forms in which it exists

    and use images of life itself. It is the most realistic art form

    in terms of form. The form in which the cinematic shot

    exists should be a reflection of the forms of real life. The

    director has only to choose the moments he will capture and

    to construct a whole out of them.

    In other words cinema cannot adopt the degree of

    convention that Eisenstein used in Ivan the Terrible? 

    It should not, in my view. Moreover I have information that

    in the last days of his life Eisenstein himself arrived at

    completely different positions on this matter, which he

    mentions in one of his letters. The point is that the mis-en-

    scene, which up to that point had been conventional in hisfilms and expressed some general idea, was supposed to

    stop being like this. It was supposed to be a finished slice of 

    life, and not to be subordinated to some exterior dramaturgy 

    that always shows the viewer the ceiling against which he

    keeps hitting his head, and in the best case the viewer sees

    no further than the idea he is assigned. He feels as if he’s in

    a good theatre, but doesn’t see life in what is shown to him

    on the screen.

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    Let’s take Alexander Nevsky  for example. There is the scene

    of the battle on ice, which is edited perfectly like the entire

    film. But Eisenstein ignored the truth of the instant and the

    truth of the very life he was filming. The characters wave

    their swords in a fake and forced manner, slowly and

    ridiculously. You can see it is staged, and staged badly. And

    all of it is edited in a particular rhythm to create the rhythm

    of the battle which the director needs. This lack of 

    correspondence fragments the episode into disconnected

    parts. Moreover there are these wooden ice-floes whichbreak up in a swimming pool according to an obviously 

    intentional pattern. It’s impossible to watch. Cinema is an

    absolute art that cannot bear falsity in its movement.

    Therefore the film falls apart. The inner rhythm of its shots

    does not agree with the principle of montage. No matter

    how wonderful Prokofiev’s music is, no matter how

    masterfully Eisenstein edited it, it doesn’t save the picture.

    In the artistic sense I consider it a failure.

    Did you use anything from Eisenstein’s work on historical

    film? 

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    No, nothing. Moreover, we wanted to do everything

    differently. If the action of Eisenstein’s films occurs in a kind

    of sterile, museum-like, almost artificial environment, we

     wanted the characters in our film to breathe the same air as

    today’s viewers, so that the events of the film were life itself,

    so that all of it was not spectacle, but human experience. Of 

    course, Eisenstein uttered profound ideas in his pictures. But

     we would like to work in a totally different manner than

    Eisenstein with respect to plastics. That’s just natural. No

    self-respecting artist would adopt an alien creative

    conception. One should have one’s own.

    And how do you feel about historical costume thrillers such

    as

    Cleopatra

    What can I say about that? That’s a commercial spectacle

    intended to impress the imagination of simple people. And

    even then Cleopatra, I understand, was a fiasco. Viewers are

    no longer interested in such pictures. Historical pictures

    must not be staged as costume dramas. That’s a mistake.

    Take, for example, The Tale of Tsar Sultan, although that’s a

    somewhat different genre, a fairy-tale [1]. Everything there

    is fake, bad theatre, tasteless. It’s so monstrous that it’s noteven worth talking about this film. But one could make such

    a grandiose film of it!

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    Which other directors in the area of historical film appears

    most significant to you? 

    I love Kurosawa, although I don’t like his Throne of Blood ,

    for example. I think he copied Shakespeare’s plot in a

    superficial manner and transferred it to Japanese history, without really succeeding. Shakespeare’s Macbeth  is much

    more profound, both in the character of its protagonist and

    in the tragedy that penetrates the action. I love The Seven 

    Samurai  andSanjuro . Remarkable pictures. Remarkable

    director. One of the best in the world, what can I say.

    Your opinion of

    Throne of lood

     surprises me. 

    It has some remarkable scenes. For instance the beginning, where the protagonists are lost in the fog, is shot incredibly.

    But the finale didn’t impress me at all. The arrow that

    penetrates his throat is badly done. You can see it’s glued on

    from both sides. It ruins the impression. Cinema doesn’t

    permit any such faults. But I still love Kurosawa a lot: in the

    historical genre he has achieved more than anyone.

    What in your opinion is Kurosawa’s greatest achievement? The main thing is his modern characters, modern problems,

    and the modern method of studying life. That’s self-evident.

    He never set himself the task of copying the life of samurai

    of a certain historical period. One perceives his Middle Ages

     without any exoticism. He is such a profound artist, he

    shows such psychological connections, such a development

    of characters and plot-lines, such a vision of the world, that

    his narrative about the Middle Ages constantly makes you

    think about today’s world. You feel that you somehow

    already know all of this. It’s the principle of recognition.

    That’s the greatest quality of art according to Aristotle.

    When you recognize something personal in the work,

    something sacred, you experience joy. Kurosawa is also

    interesting for his social analysis of history. If you compare

    The Seven Samurai  andThe Magnificent Seven , which sharethe same plot, it is especially visible. Kurosawa’s historicism

    is based on characters. Moreover these are not conventional

    characters, but ones which issue from the circumstances of 

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    the protagonists’ life. Each samurai has his own individual

    fate, although each possesses nothing except the ability to

    use a sword; and, not wanting to do anything else because

    of his pride, each finds himself serving peasants to defend

    them from the enemy. There is a text of pure genius at the

    end of the film, remember, over the grave, when they plant

    rice: samurai come and go, but the nation remains. That’s

    the idea. They are like the wind, blown this way and that.

    Only the peasants remain on the earth.

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    But The Magnificent Seven  is a typical western with

    everything that issues therefrom. The director remained

    totally within the framework of the genre. Why is Kurosawa

    so good? Because he doesn’t belong to any genre. The

    historical genre? No, this is more likely resurrected history,

    convincingly true, not bearing any relation to the canons of 

    the “historical genre.” On the contrary, in The Magnificent 

    Seven  everything is based on the canons which it is

    impossible to break. Everything is known ahead of time. The

     viewer knows ahead of time what is supposed to happen,

    but he watches because it is all performed so brilliantly 

    according to the generic and stylistic canons of the western.

    This isn’t art. This is a commercial enterprise. No matter

     what good ideas are placed therein, it’s all fake, false,ridiculous. It seems sort of the same thing: the same

    peasants, just as kind, the want to bury the Indian, etc. But

     what a sense of discomfort! It’s all a stretch, accidental, it’s a

    laugh.

    What do you think about the relationship between the

    individual personality and history in a historical film? 

    That was a very important question for us. We want themain protagonist of our film to be the events and the

    people, the nation in its mass. We didn’t even want to

    separate out Rublev as an individual on whom the course of 

    events depends. Usually in historical pictures there is always

    some active character: a tsar, a general, etc., whose will

    determines the course of events, who introduces some

    reforms, in other words, who makes history. I think this is

    the coattails of a tradition that was formed under Stalin. Ican’t explain it any other way. Of course the role of the

    individual in history cannot be denied. The influence it

    exerts on the destiny of the epoch is very significant. But to

    explain everything by the actions of tsars and supermen is,

    in my view, an anti-historical approach. In any case, I’m glad

    that we were able to make do without any such moralizer,

     without a character with a raised index finger, without the

    creator of fates who makes history according to his whim.Even great people are led by events, by history.

    In this light what do you think of a film like

    Peter the Great

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    I don’t remember it very well. It was some kind of 

    gigantomania, there some something inhuman in the

    character. On the contrary, the figure of Chapaev was

    resolved in a manner of genius. Just think, a man who

    doesn’t even know what the International is, who conflicts

     with his commissar, who declares that a commander

    shouldn’t ride ahead on a warrior horse but should remain

    behind his detachment and should die fighting only in his

    underwear! Everything seems backwards compared to the

    ideal cinema protagonist. And only because of this do we see

    him as a normal, everyday man; he becomes immortal in

    our eyes. Chapaev, as played by Babochkin, was a totally 

    unique phenomenon. Of course, all praise is due to the

     Vasiliev brothers who edited down the material of anenormous two-part film into a normal-length film, but the

    result is like a diamond where every facet contrasts with

    another, giving birth to a character.

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    It’s so grandiose! That’s what a real historical picture is!

     And, by the way, remember how many obstacles Chapaev 

    had to overcome, how much discussion there was: “how isthat possible?” “why show that?”. [It was necessary to show

    this] precisely because its hero is a man and therefore

    immortal. For some reason it is thought that historical

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    personages should be placed onto buskins. I don’t know

     why. We, in any case, tried to make our characters

    understandable to our viewers, to make them as close as

    possible to the current day, not in the content of events, not

    in their actions, but in their psychology, in their

    interrelations. They even speak the contemporary language.

    That thundering sound during the finale with shots of icons:

    is that a jet plane? Is that also a way of making the story

    more modern? 

    No, you’re wrong. It’s just thunder, normal thunder. You

    may have felt that, but we did not try for that. In general I

    can’t bear any interpretations, any “fingers hidden the

    pocket”; that’s the worst thing possible. That’s not art. I

    reject that out of hand, I swear! But if it seems similar, then

     what can you do? It really is similar. But there’s no “finger”

    here. In this respect we cleansed the screenplay with all

    possible diligence, and if we found anything that could be

    interpreted as a hint at some contemporary situations we

    purged it mercilessly. The only thing that was important to

    us was to express our idea, our view of the nation, of the

    era, of people, of art. We didn’t want any deviation from thehistoriography. Even without that the limits were sufficiently 

    broad to express everything we needed to.

    Are you planning to continue your work in the realm of

    historical film? 

    Right now I don’t have any such desire. Not now, but after a

    couple of pictures, I would like to shoot the Life of 

     Archpriest Avvakum . He’s a colossal figure. Fascinating.Moreover you don’t have to write any screenplay. It’s

    enough to take the Life and make the picture according to it.

    He’s a remarkable character, deeply Russian, the character

    of an indestructible man. A story where man triumphs. A 

    tragedy equal in strength to Aeschylus. The death of the

    protagonist engenders within us the feeling, we understand

    how great this figure was, how grandiose the power of the

    human spirit can be. This concerns me. I would like to dothis.

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    What are the two films you would like to do first? 

    One plan I am keeping in secret, but the other is Solaris 

    based on Stanislaw Lem.

    A science-fiction film; that’s also a kind of historical film

    only oriented towards the future not the past. 

     Yes, and we know as little about the future as we do about

    the past.

    But we try to guess ahead of time. 

    Just the same as when we try to reconstruct in historical

    films the way things were, and we have just as little chance

    of success as with predicting the future. But that’s not

    important, that’s of secondary importance, the main thing is

    the ideas which we express. If a fifteenth-century man

     watched Rublev he would probably be terribly confused and

     wouldn’t recognize anything. It could not be otherwise.

     After all we are speaking of art. That’s what distinguishes it

    from science.

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    And what if people will watch Rublev in the year 2200. How

    will the viewer approach the film then? 

    Well. We tried in 1966 to make a picture as close as possible

    to history, as accurate as possible in terms of costumes and

    other such accessories of the age, with the sole exception of 

    the dialogue. What year did you say? 2200? I hope that

    intelligent and educated people will live then, they will

    understand that this is a work of art, and will not make thekind of demands that we are subjected to today.

    Historical films often rest on some literary source. In this

    case the director faces the task of double interpretation: of

    the literary work and of the historical event. 

    I think our task in making our film on Rublev was simplified

    precisely due to the lack of any firm information about our

    protagonist. His character, his personality are so mysterious,obscure, and encoded, that we were able to construct our

    story freely, to imagine Rublev’s biography without fear of 

    complicating our relationships with historians and art

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    historians. They can’t prove to us their objections to our

    depiction of Andrei. And, by contrast, if the facts of his life

     were known in detail, no one would forgive us the violation

    of historical truth.

    To what degree in your view does the artist have a right to

    make things up? The artist has a right to any fiction; that’s why he’s an artist.

    He does not misrepresent his depiction as the truth of life.

    He battles only for the truth of the problem and the truth of 

    the conclusions which he presents. And the fact that art is

    based on fiction is proven loudly by its entire history, from

    its very sources…

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    It’s easy to make things up with regard to Rublev’s epoch.

    But what about the events for example of the Second

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    World War? 

    It’s still the same. Perhaps the artist even has it slightly 

    easier here. In order to make things up, you have to know

     what you are rejecting. You absolutely must know this. You

    can’t say: “Well, I’m going to shoot a film about the

     Archpriest Avvakum, although I know nothing about him or

    his time.” Nothing will come of this. The more we know, the

    more are our opportunities. But the artist has the right to

    reject something and change something. He has the right to

    his own interpretation of events in the name of the task he

    has set himself.

    What do you think about Pasolini’s

    Gospel according to

    Matthew? That’s also a kind of historical film. 

    Of course. I like the picture. I like it precisely because its

    director did not succumb to the temptation of interpreting

    the Bible. The Bible has been interpreted for two thousand

     years and no one can reach unanimous agreement. So

    Pasolini did not set himself this task, he just left the thing in

    the form in which it was born. Many feel that the image of a

    militant cruel Christ was made up by the author of the film.

    Not true! Read the Gospels and you will see that this was acruel, cantankerous, irreconcilable man. Moreover with

     what genius was it written! On the one hand he’s God and

    the Church has been relying on him for two thousand years,

    but he succumbs to doubt in the garden of Gethsemane.

    What could be simpler than to call for help from his father

    and avoid dying on the cross, but he doesn’t do this. He is all

    back-to-front…

    Would it be possible to film

    Hamlet

     in the same way

    avoiding the temptation of interpreting the source? 

    This is a more serious matter. I have long dreamed of doing

    a production of Hamlet  and I hope to stage it someday in

    the theatre and maybe in the cinema. The thing is that

    Hamlet  does not need interpretation. It is necessary, I think,

    simply to read what Shakespeare said. And insofar as he

    spoke of absolutely eternal problems which are always of principal importance, Hamlet can be staged according to

    Shakespeare’s design, in any age. Such miracles sometimes

    occur with works. The artist sometimes achieves such a

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    profound insight into events, characters and human

    conflicts, that even centuries later what he wrote has

    enormous significance. Only no one knows how to read

    Hamlet  properly.

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    What about Kozintsev’s? 

    I don’t like it.

    Olivier? 

    No again. They both try to modernize Hamlet  in some way.

    Peter Brook? I mean the theatrical staging. 

    No, I don’t like his either.

    You mean there has never been a

    Hamlet

     that… 

     Yes, in my view, there never has been the Hamlet  that

    Shakespeare wrote. Perhaps there was in the Elizabethan

    age, when he personally participated in the Globe theatre.

    Maybe… Hamlet  shouldn’t be interpreted; it shouldn’t be

    stretched onto some contemporary problems like a shirt

     which rips at the seams, and even if it doesn’t rip it hangs asif on a clothes hanger, absolutely formlessly. There are

    enough ideas there which remain immortal to this day. One

    only has to learn to read them… All of this is really 

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    complicated when you deal with such canonical figures…

     You see, there are two kinds of screen adaptation. The first

    is when you use classical works, masterpieces, which are so

    saturated with meaning for millions of years ahead, for ever,

    unto the ages and ages, so that it’s necessary only to

    communicate them. By the means which exist. Cinema

    exists, so you can do it by means of cinema as well. And if 

    no one has succeeded in filming Shakespeare as he wrote, it

    is still necessary to do it.

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    But then there are pieces which merely give the director or

    screenwriter an impulse, material which they can use to

    speak with their own voice and express their own ideas.Incidentally Shakespeare himself, for example, wrote about

    Julius Caesar something different than what corresponds to

    history, to the works of Plutarch and Suetonius. He wrote as

    he saw fit. He said whatever he thought about this issue.

     And this path is not so bad, by the way. If a book is merely 

    material to help you express your ideas, then you can’t avoid

    using contemporary issues, otherwise you are not an artist,

    otherwise your film will be popular science, historiography, without artistic merit. And if you are adapting an immortal

     work you need a completely different approach.

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    They say that great works like

    Hamlet

     need a new reading

    for each generation. 

    With respect to Hamlet that is not correct.

    But history shows that’s the way it has been. 

     Yes, thus it has been, unfortunately. But Shakespeare wrote

    a significantly more profound work than the performances which we have seen, which we know. For how many years,

    for how many decades was Hamlet  portrayed as a languid

     youth with long hair and a black tunic with puff sleeves, in a

    camisole with a golden chain! But it is known for sure that

    Shakespeare envisioned a completely different, thirty-year-

    old man suffering from shortness of breath. To think that

    era was closer to Shakespeare than our own. But they acted

    the role as they liked. It was a fashion. As soon as Hamlet

    becomes such a languid prince, everything is lost.

    Shakespeare’s Hamlet  is dead… I would do it completely 

    differently, and the scenery would be different. But that’s

    not important. It’s my decision as a director how to shoot it.

    But the characters and the idea of the piece should be

    preserved by all means because they are absolutely 

    immortal. The idea of Hamlet is the conflict of a man of thefuture with the present. He overtook his era intellectually 

    but was obliged to live amongst his physical contemporaries.

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    He continually reflects. Why? What’s the problem? What’s

    the main issue?

    The main issue is his inability to act. Perhaps he is unsure of 

    everything or he thinks he’s weak? Nothing of the sort.

    Hamlet understands perfectly well that the conflict is

    insoluble. This is why he says, “To be or not to be?” Theconflict is insoluble, whether he interferes in it or not.

    Hamlet sees the pointlessness of conflict in advance. He is

    fated. And as soon as he begins to act he perishes for himself 

    as well. Imagine by what means he has to fight in this

     world! What a “mousetrap” this must be! What a duel! In

    other words he adopts the position of his enemy. He should

    fight with their weapons in the same base manner as they 

    do. And the result is inevitable death. Because it is

    impossible to change anything. Hamlet has overtaken his

    own time by many years. He understands the world he lives

    in and that only the future times, to which he belongs

    spiritually, will be capable of changing anything.

    How can man act upon time? Or is he helpless? 

    No, he is obliged to act. Hamlet decides correctly. He must

    act even though he understands he will perish. He will

    perish like Giordano Bruno, like many revolutionaries and

    defenders of ideas. After all Hamlet fights for an idea. He

    can’t become a vulgar townsman and accept everything that

    surrounds him, although he knows that he is doomed.

    Hence the greatness of his spirit and his genius. Hamlet

    hesitates because he cannot triumph. How should he be?

    What can he do? He can’t do anything. This will always bethe way. But he must still say his word… And the result is a

    pile of corpses. And four captains carry him out. This is the

    meaning of Hamlet, not “to be or not to be,” “to live or die.”

    Nonsense! It has nothing to do with life and death. It has to

    do with the life of the human spirit, about the ability or

    inability to become acclimatized, about the responsibility of 

    a great man and intellect before society.

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    Man must still act! Hamlet acts although he knows he is

    incapable of breaking this world, this castle. In the best case

    he will himself become its king. It could be done in this way!

     And then the piece would be understandable for all ages.

    Progress exists. But there is a man who has overtaken

    progress. He has come from afar, has studied for a long

    time, and has not participated in all the internecine

    conflicts. He is a member of the intelligentsia, of the highest

    class. Only Russians can understand what that means. Do

     you know what is said about the intelligentsia in the famous

    Britannica Encyclopedia? There are two sections: the

    intelligentsia, and the Russian intelligentsia. And we havealready forgotten about that.

    How do you understand that? 

    http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/PAR279091.jpg?e51333

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    The Russian intelligentsia was always extremely active and

    independent. It was never in the service of the princes of 

    this world, it defended truth, sought, moved forward.

    “Intelligentsia” is a Russian word. The members of the

    intelligentsia suffered privations in the name of its ideas,

    underwent repressions, and were considered idealists. Recall

    the social-democrats: Belinsky, Dobroliubov, Pisarev, all of 

    them stood for an idea and were outcasts. But no matter

    how hostile reality was to them they believed in truth and

    fought for it. And what is the intelligentsia in the West? A 

    private person, uninterested in contact with the masses.

    In other words to be a member of the intelligentsia is a

    profession… 

     Yes, it is a social calling. Lenin, after all, was also

    intelligentsia.

    (http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/wp-

    content/uploads/2016/04/B6GFWoIIQAASPWS.jpg-large.jpg?e51333)

    http://www.cinephiliabeyond.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/B6GFWoIIQAASPWS.jpg-large.jpg?e51333

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    ‘The Man Who Wasn’t There’: A

    Lovely, Artistic Exhibition of 

      •

      — Many

    thanks! I love your site as well.

    It's on my short list of most

     

    ‘Point  Blank’: John Boorman’s

    Har dboiled Classic Elevated by

      •

      — Mother lode is

    right!

    Jean-Pierre Melville: Life and

    Work of a Groundbreaking

     •

      — Oh HELL Yes! I

    discovered your site some time

    ago but forgot. With all this

     

    ‘Close Encounters of the Third

    Kind’: Steven Spielberg’s

     •

     — You missed a

    key part of the Close

    Encounters story. When

     

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