report to convocation september 28, 2017 strategic … · 2018-11-26 · hiring a lawyer or...

TAB 4

Report to Convocation September 28, 2017

Strategic Communications Steering Group

Julian Falconer, ChairRobert Burd

Teresa Donnelly Joseph Groia,

Sandra Nishikawa, Baljit Sikand

Tanya Walker

Purpose of Report: Decision

Prepared by: External Relations and Communications

Convocation - Strategic Communications Steering Group Report

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TABLE OF CONTENTS

For Decision

Renaming the Law Society of Upper Canada.……….……………………………....TAB 4.1


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COMMITTEE PROCESS

1. The Strategic Communications Steering Group met on September 5, 2017. Julian Falconer (Chair), Joseph Groia, and Baljit Sikand attended in person, with Robert Burd, Teresa Donnelly, Sandra Nishikawa, and Tanya Walker participating by telephone.

2. Staff members Sheena Weir, Diana Miles, and Alastair Harris-Cartwright were present.


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Tab 4.1

FOR DECISION

RENAMING THE LAW SOCIETY OF UPPER CANADA

Motion

3. That the Law Society of Upper Canada / Barreau du Haut-Canada change its name to the Law Society of Ontario / Barreau de l’Ontario effective January 1, 2018, and request that the Government of Ontario make the required amendments to the Law Society Act.

Issue for Consideration

4. The Strategic Communications Steering Group was established in February 2017 to examine how best to meet the Law Society’s strategic priority to ‘Engage stakeholders and the public with responsive communications’.

5. As part of this work, the Steering Group appointed an external consultant to undertake research with the general public and licensees. The findings will aid the development of an overall strategic communications plan for the organization.

6. An executive summary of the relevant research findings is attached at Tab 4.1.1.

7. Among other things, the research findings pointed to the organization’s name, particularly ‘Upper Canada’ as a barrier to connecting with the general public.

8. The consultant recommended to the Strategic Communications Steering Group that a name change from the Law Society of Upper Canada to the Law Society of Ontario be considered.

9. The Strategic Communications Steering Group considered and unanimously agreed with the recommendation.


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Rationale

10. A name change to the Law Society of Ontario is recommended for several reasons:a. The general public do not know that the Law Society is the regulator for

the legal professions in Ontario;b. The public do not know what ‘Upper Canada’ is, and those who do are

confused by its use in the Law Society’s name;c. ‘Upper Canada’ does not reflect the geographic area the Law Society

represents;d. ‘Upper Canada’ is a non-inclusive phrase, which is also offensive to

some;e. The ‘Upper Canada’ portion of the name is an anachronism, is viewed as

elitist by some, and is inconsistent with the image the Law Society wishes to portray of a modern and inclusive regulator;

f. The proposed name change would achieve consistency with the names of other law societies across Canada and internationally, and therefore be more recognizable;

g. A name change will help the Law Society connect with the public, making the proposed communications strategy more effective; and

h. A name change is also reflective of the organization’s wider efforts to engage with Indigenous peoples as part of its Indigenous Framework developed in response to the Calls for Action in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada’s report.

Key Issues and Considerations

11. The development of a comprehensive awareness campaign, pursuant to the Law Society’s strategic priorities, is underway and will come to Convocation this fall.

12. The communications plan aims to increase engagement with the general public, while raising awareness of the Law Society’s role in helping to promote access to justice in Ontario. Communications efforts will enable the organization to more effectively engage with the public and fulfill its statutory mandate of serving the public need. Efforts will focus on informing the public on how to access licensed legal professionals and legal resources, and how to register complaints when poorly served. In addition, communications will also help promote the use of legal professionals as a whole and highlight the critical work they undertake.

13. A name change will positively impact the awareness campaign, planned for the new year, by providing added leverage to secure media coverage.


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14. The name change will be phased in over 12 months. This allows for a transition period and ensures utilization of any materials with the ‘Upper Canada’ name, both reducing cost implications of a name change, and allowing for a gradual adoption of a new name throughout the organization.

15. A request for an amendment to the Law Society Act to reflect a name change will be submitted immediately upon a positive decision by Convocation.

16. The organization will begin to operate as the Law Society of Ontario on January 1, 2018, while the legal name of the organization will remain as the Law Society of Upper Canada until an amendment is made to the Act.

17. There will be no immediate requirement for licensees to update their stationery or websites indicating they are a member of the Law Society of Ontario. A reference to the Law Society of Upper Canada will be interpreted as Law Society of Ontario.

18. Much of the work associated with the name change will be completed by existing staff in their individual areas at no incremental cost. Costs of the name change are also separate from the outreach costs to publicize the name change and raise the profile of the organization with the public which is part of the larger Communications Plan to support the strategic priority to raise awareness with the public. An amount of $150,000 has been allocated in the 2018 budget for the purposes of phasing in the formal name change requirements over 2018, including for example, updating stationery, signage, website references, and logo update. This cost is included in the draft communications budget as part of the awareness campaign considered by the Audit and Finance Committee as part of the 2018 budget process.


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Tab: 4.1.1

Executive Summary Law Society of Upper Canada Research Project

The Law Society of Upper Canada commissioned qualitative and quantitative research in 2016/17 to better understand Ontarians’ views on legal services in the Province and obtain member feedback on the Society’s communications efforts and preferences for communications channels and media. The following is a summary of these findings.

Ontarians’ views on legal services

Hiring a lawyer or paralegalA large majority of Ontarians, 75% have hired a lawyer in the past and of those who did, 81% were satisfied with their experience. Of 19% who were not satisfied, the key reasons given were cost and timing. Only 29% of the people are familiar with the services that lawyers provide. Most Ontarians 90% understand lawyers need a license to practice and they are regulated in Ontario 80%.

One in 10 Ontarians have hired a paralegal in the past. Of the few who had hired a paralegal, 73% were satisfied with their experience. The key reasons with hiring a paralegal were largely based on it being less expensive. Very few Ontarians, only 10%, are familiar with the services that paralegals provide and most do not know that they are licensed.

How to find a lawyer or paralegalMost Ontarians would “ask a friend or family member” or go online if they were trying to find a lawyer or paralegal. 81% of Ontarians would ask friend/family if they were trying to find a lawyer, 69% to find a paralegal. In terms of searching online, 73% of Ontarians would search online to find a paralegal, 72% would search online to find a lawyer.

Key Drivers – Trust and HonestyOntarians were asked what is most important to you when choosing legal help and the top two drivers were trust 76% and honesty 72%. Other things that were important were expertise 70%, value for money 69% and competency 67%. Trust and honesty were also highly correlated with satisfaction of hiring for both lawyers and paralegals. The key barriers to choosing legal help are largely cost at 72%, and concern over competency of hired legal help at 36%.


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Want to learn how to find legal help and what to doOntarians want to learn how to find legal help, what to do when they need legal help and more about the services lawyers and paralegals provide. When informed about the Law Society Referral Service, most Ontarians were not aware of the service but were quite interested in hearing more about the “30 minutes of free legal consultation from the Law Society Referral Service.”

Impressions of Law Society of Upper CanadaOntarians were not very familiar with the Law Society of Upper Canada. Less than half of Ontarians 46% believe that it represents the province of Ontario, 20% believe it represents Canada, and 25% do not know. Ontarians also provided feedback as to what disliked about the name. These comments mainly focused on “Upper Canada” and verbatim comments included “out of touch”, “unclear”, “too colonial”, “not inclusive” and “don’t know what Upper Canada is?”

Research Sample – Ontario AdultsThe Ontario population research study was conducted with 1000 Adults 18+, evenly split male/female. The sample size was regionally representative of the population across the Province; 51% completed a college or university degree; 12% completed high school; 50% were employed full time; 16% retired; 74% white and 18% racialized. The sample size was statistically significant [stat].

Members’ views on communications

Impressions of the Law SocietyWhile members see the Law Society as the legal regulator and governing body, it was also described as “bureaucratic,” “antiquated” and “old”. 53% have positive impressions of the Law Society, 26% are neutral and 21% have negative impressions.

Law Society should be an agent of change for the professionsMembers were asked to best describe their views on the approach the Law Society should take on the future. Only 24% of members believe the Law Society should maintain the status quo. 49% came out strongly in favour of the Law Society being be an agent of change for the professions.

Law Society communicationsMember awareness of Law Society communications is greatest for Ontario Reports 95%, followed by the Member Portal 92%, CPD program information 88%, and the Law Society Website 85%. When asked what do members want to hear more about rule changes topped the list. Members would also like improvements to communications including better targeted and less frequent emails, and a better portal experience.

Awareness of key law society initiatives is lowMember awareness of key law society initiatives was low between 12 – 32%. Lawyer licensing 32%, advertising 28%, racialized licensees 28%, alternative business structures 21%, The Access Group (TAG) 21%, Coach and Advisor Network 19%, Mental Health Framework 15%, and Compliance-based Entity regulation 12%.


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Public Awareness Members would like any public awareness initiatives from the Society to focus on what to do when you need legal help 38%, benefits of using a lawyer or paralegal 37% and how to find a lawyer or paralegal 35%.

Members views on the name Half of members believe the name the Law Society of Upper Canada is suitable at 50%, while the other half thought the name not suitable or somewhat suitable. Reasons for not being suitable centred on Upper Canada in the name.

Analysis & Insight

ß While a large portion of Ontarians have hired legal services in the past they are not very familiar with what services are provided by lawyers and paralegals.

ß Ontarians views and member views on the key elements of a public awareness program are fairly aligned. They focus on what to do when you need legal help and how to find a lawyer and paralegal.

ß Many Ontarians are confused about the name the Law Society of Upper Canada as most do not know what it represents or do not like the words Upper Canada.

ß Many members do not feel connected to the Society as they are not familiar withwhat the Society does and they are not aware of many of the key initiatives undertaken by the Society.

ß Members would like the Society to play a larger role in advancing the professions and be an agent of change.

Methodology

The Ontario population research study was conducted with 1007 Adults 18+, evenly split male/female. The sample size was regionally representative of the population across the Province; 51% completed a college or university degree; 12% completed high school; 50% were employed full time; 16% retired; 74% white and 18% racialized. The sample was robust and the data was statistically significant (stat tested at 95% CI).

The member research study was conducted with N=2312 licensed members (1936 lawyers, and 376 paralegals), evenly split male/female. The sample size was representative of the member population across the Province; 51% were ages 35-64; 45% were private practice, soles or smalls, and 29% were in-house or government; 17% were racialized; 54% were from Toronto, 17% from the East and 29% from rest of province. The sample was robust and the data was statistically significant (stat tested at 95% CI).

Research conducted by Colbourne Consulting Inc. 2017.


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1400-85, rue Albert Ottawa (Ontario) K1P 6A4 T (613) 842-7462 F (613) 842-8389 [email protected] www.ajefo.ca

Me Paul Schabas

Trésorier

Barreau du Haut-Canada

Osgoode Hall

130, rue Queen ouest

Toronto (Ontario) M5H 2N6

Ottawa, le 27 septembre 2017

Objet : Lettre d’appui au changement de nom proposé du Barreau du Haut-Canada à Barreau

de l’Ontario

Trésorier Schabas,

L’Association des juristes d’expression française de l’Ontario (AJEFO) appuie favorablement le

changement de nom du Barreau du Haut-Canada à Barreau de l’Ontario.

L’AJEFO estime qu’il est dans son mandat d’appuyer cette initiative du Barreau de prendre un

nom qui est plus moderne, inclusif et reflète les avancées des divers groupes qui composent la

membriété du Barreau. L’AJEFO souhaite par la présente mettre en valeur les raisons qui

motivent son appui.

1. Un changement qui reflète le statut du français au Barreau

Premièrement, le terme « Haut-Canada » évoque les temps de la colonisation anglaise et ne

reflète pas la présente inclusion des membres de la profession juridique d’expression française

de l’Ontario. En effet, la proposition de changement de nom à « Barreau de l’Ontario » tiendra

en compte les réalités de la profession juridique d’expression française de l’Ontario et favorisera

le sentiment d’appartenance de la communauté francophone au Barreau. Ce changement de

nom démontrera l’évolution du Barreau et de sa membriété diverse. De plus, ce nom permettra

de reconnaître plus formellement le statut du français au Barreau en s’assurant de ne pas utiliser

des références colonisatrices désuètes tout en reconnaissant les contributions et les

développements très importants du Barreau d’être inclusif.

Convocation - Letter from AJEFO (French) - Law Society Name Change

646

mailto:[email protected]

http://www.ajefo.ca/

1400-85, rue Albert Ottawa (Ontario) K1P 6A4 T (613) 842-7462 F (613) 842-8389 [email protected] www.ajefo.ca

2. Un nom vulgarisé et clair

Deuxièmement, le Barreau règlemente les activités des avocats, avocates et parajuristes de

l’Ontario dans l’intérêt du public. Dans cette optique, l’utilisation de la terminologie « Haut-

Canada » n’est plus représentative parce que ce terme n’est plus d’usage pour identifier notre

province. Ce terme n’est pas accessible pour le public. Cette terminologie entrave également le

sentiment identitaire que devrait avoir le public envers le Barreau. L’utilisation du mot

« Ontario » sera ainsi davantage claire et accessible pour le public.

3. Un nom moderne en 2017

Puisque nous sommes en 2017, le changement proposé modernisera l’image de marque du

Barreau et reflètera la diversité de ses membres, particulièrement pour ses plus jeunes avocats,

avocates et parajuristes.

Enfin, l’AJEFO réitère que cette initiative constitue un pas dans la bonne direction vers la

reconnaissance plus formellement du statut du français au Barreau. Toutefois, nous rappelons

que l’AJEFO a encore plusieurs préoccupations quant aux réalités et aux difficultés de la

profession juridique d’expression française de l’Ontario telles qu’identifiées dans son mémoire

soumis au Barreau le 31 juillet 2017 dans le cadre du dialogue sur l’accès à la profession.

En espérant que notre appui aura une suite positive, nous vous prions de recevoir l’expression

de nos sentiments les meilleurs.

Me Sonia Ouellet Présidente, AJEFO

Me Andrée-Anne Martel Directrice générale, AJEFO

C.c. : Mme Suzanne Clément, Conseillère, BHC

Mme Sheena Weir, Directrice générale, External Relations and Communications, BHC


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mailto:[email protected]


Mr. Paul SchabasTreasurerLaw Society of UpperCanadaOsgoode Hall130, Queen Street WestToronto, ON M5H 2N6

Ottawa - September 27, 2017

Re: Letter of support for the proposed name change from Law Society of Upper Canada to Law Society of Ontario

Dear Treasurer,

The Association des juristes d’expression française de l’Ontario (AJEFO) supports the name change from Law Society of Upper Canada to Law Society of Ontario.

AJEFO considers it within its mandate to support this initiative by the Law Society to adopt a name which is more modern and inclusive and which reflects the advancements of the many groups that make up the Law Society’s membership. AJEFO wishes to underline the reasons for its support for this initiative.

1. A change that reflects the status of the French language at the Law Society

First, the phrase « Upper Canada » harks back to the days of English colonisation and does not reflect the current inclusion of French-speaking members of the legal profession in Ontario. Indeed, the proposed name change to “Law Society of Ontario” will take into consideration the realities of the French-speaking members of the legal profession in Ontario and will foster the feeling that they belong at the Law Society. This name change will demonstrate the evolution of the Law Society and of its diverse membership. Furthermore, this name will allow for a more formal recognition of the status of French at the Law Society by avoiding the use of obsolete colonial references and recognizing the very important contributions and developments of the Law Society towards inclusiveness.

1400-85, rue AlbertOttawa (Ontario) K1P 6A4T (613) 842-7462F (613) [email protected]


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2. A more approachable, clearer name

Second, the Law Society regulates lawyers and paralegals of Ontario in the public interest. With this in mind, the use of the phrase “Upper Canada” is no longer representative because thisphrase is no longer used to refer to our province. It is no longer accessible by the public. This terminology is also a barrier to the public identifying with the Law Society. The use of the word “Ontario” will therefore be much clearer and accessible for the public.

3. A modern name in 2017

Because it is 2017, the proposed change will modernise the Law Society’s image and reflect the diversity of its members, particularly its younger lawyers and paralegals.

Finally, AJEFO reiterates that this initiative is a step in the right direction towards greater formal recognition of the French language at the Law Society. However, we would like to remind you that AJEFO still has a number of concerns regarding the realities and difficulties faced by the French-speaking members of the legal profession in Ontario and which it has outlined in its submission to the Law Society on July 31, 2017, within the context of the Dialogue on Licensing.

We hope that our support will contribute towards a positive result.

Best regards,

Me Sonia OuelletPresident, AJEFO

Me Andrée-Anne MartelCEO, AJEFO

C.c. : Mme Suzanne Clément, Conseillère, BHCMme Sheena Weir, Directrice générale, External Relations and Communications, BHC

1400-85, rue AlbertOttawa (Ontario) K1P 6A4T (613) 842-7462F (613) [email protected]


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THE LAW SOCIETY OF UPPER CANADA

CONVOCATION

FRIDAY. JANUARY 29TH. 1993

OPEN SESSION

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ATCHISON & DENMAN COURT REPORTING SERVICES LTD.

155 University Avenue, Suite 302 Toronto, Ontario M5H 3B7

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29/01/93 OPEN CONVOCATION ===========================================================

CONVOCATION ATTENDANCE - MORNING SESSION

Treasurer - Allan Rock

Allan F. Lawrence Kenneth Howie

Ronald W. Cass Frances Kiteley

G.H.T. Farquharson V. Krishna

Kenneth Jarvis

Laura Legge

Brendan O'Brien

Arthur Scace

James Spence

Stuart Thorn

William Howland

Thomas Bastedo

Rino Bragagnolo

Lloyd Brennan

Colin Campbell

Paul Copeland

Carole Curtis

E. Susan Elliott

Philip Epstein

Abraham Feinstein

Neil Finkelstein

Stephen Goudge

S. Casey Hill

Paul Lamek

Donald Lamont

Netty Graham

Nora Angeles-Richardson

Hope Sealy

Joan Lax

Earl Levy

Colin McKinnon

Fatima Mohideen

Ross Murray

Karen Palmer

Patricia Peters

David Scott

Marc Somerville

Harvey Strosberg

Robert C. Topp

James Wardlaw

Mary Weaver

Roger Yachetti

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1 CONVOCATION ATTENDANCE - AFTERNOON SESSION

2 Treasurer - Allan Rock

3 Ronald W. Cass Kenneth Howie

4 G.H.T. Farquharson v. Krishna

5 Laura Legge Paul Lamek

6 Brendan O'Brien Donald Lamont

7 P.B.C. Pepper Netty Graham

8 Arthur Scace Joan Lax

9 James Spence Earl J. Levy

10 Thomas Bastedo Fatima Mohideen

11 Rino Bragagnolo Ross Murray

12 Lloyd G. Brennan Karen Palmer

13 Paul Copeland Patricia Peters

14 E. Susan Elliott David Scott

15 Philip Epstein Marc Somerville

16 Abraham G. Feinstein Robert Topp

17 Neil Finkelstein James Wardlaw

18 Stephen Goudge Mary Weaver

19 s. Casey Hill

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INDEX

MATTER

Treasurer's Remarks

Motions: Committee Appointments

Call to the Bar

Committee Reports Taken as Read

Items to be Spoken to:

Bicentennial

Discipline Policy

Finance & Administration

Equity in Legal Education & Practice

Insurance

Legal Education

Professional Standards

Research and Planning

County & District Liaison

PAGE NO.

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Insurance

Legal Aid

Reports Spoken to:

Professional Standards

Research & Planning

Clinic Funding

Matters Requiring Debate:

Special Committee on Access to Legal

Serivices

Name Change of Law Society

Special Committee on Court Reform

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1 MR. HOWIE: One of the questions put by

2 Miss Peters was not answered and that is the issue of the

3 financing of the annual deficits and I am prepared to talk

4 to that only in this sense: That the Finance Committee as

5 part of the budget process reviewed the issue of what will

6 happen with respect to recertification.

7 Our November report indicated, Treasurer,

8 that the Finance Committee was prepared to -- is prepared

9 to recommend that we will continue to finance what is an

10 anticipated deficit in certification until 1995. Fiscal

11 year 94-95, not beyond. Not that that's decided, one more

12 fiscal year.

13 MS. PETERS: When will it be decided?

14 MR. HOWIE: That's a budget process.

15 THE TREASURER: Let's move then to the

16 motion to change the name.

17 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, I had a matter

18 drawn to my attention by associate counsel from Timmins,

19 Ontario, Mr. Bragagnolo, who pointed out that there's a

20 misspelling in the report. The addendum report, paragraph

21 one, Civil Litigation, fifth line down should be

22 principal, "A-L."

23 MR. COPELAND: It's been passed already. I

24 don't think we can do that.

25 MR. BRAGAGNOLO: For the record, associate

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1 counsel in Timmins carry their own books to the library.

2 THE TREASURER: The motion for name change

3 was first brought last September I believe and is now

4 before us. Let me first of all set the record straight.

5 The Law Times reported a week or so ago

6 that I had announced that the name of the Law Society

7 would change effective today to the Law Society of

8 Ontario. Now, someone at the Law Times must think this

9 position is a lot more powerful than it is because

10 everybody here knows that no such thing could conceivably

11 happen and no one I hope could conceive that I would have

12 announced it in that way.

13 I wrote to the Law Times and told them that

14 they were in error in that regard and I accepted

15 responsibility if the error fell from anything I said or

16 if I led or caused any misunderstanding, but I asked that

17 a correction be printed. So I didn't say that. But many

18 members of the profession thought that I did, of course,

19 and I've had my share of mail and phone calls which I take

20 as penance for my sins.

21 But I think that -- I think one of the

22 points I'd like to see this afternoon made is that it

23 would be nice if we could deal with this thing today once

24 and for all and move it off our agenda, whether we deal

25 with it by saying we're not going to deal with it or

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1 dealing with it by saying we'll make a decision today or

2 have a plebiscite or referendum.

3 I think that there are many members of the

4 profession who believe that we should be dealing with

5 other more pressing matters and I'd like to see us get

6 this thing out of the way, one way or the other. I expect

7 that people have fixed views one way or the other. I

8 think we should also try to avoid an extended debate that

9 will serve only to provide an exchange of those fixed

10 views. I'm not sure how many minds are going to be

11 changed.

12 I think there are two motions of which I am

13 aware. Or perhaps just one, Mr. Thorn.

14 MR. THOM: Let me first say thank you for

15 what you just said by way of introduction. Also this is

16 not a major matter of significance in the history of our

17 Society and shouldn't occupy too much time, however it's

18 been put on the table and for that if it's going to occupy

19 time that can be better employed, Mr. Topp and I

20 apologize.

21 Let me say secondly, the motion we put

22 before you today is the one that's in your book of reports

23 and that the document put on your chairs is withdrawn or

24 was never presented, let's put it that way.

25 Maybe you thought Mr. Topp and I bend at

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1 every breeze that blows. The motion we ask you to

2 consider this afternoon is the one steps be taken to

3 changing the name to the Law Society of Ontario.

4 THE TREASURER: That's the one at tab

5 two?

6 MR. THOM: Tab two. In that regard I will

7 make my remarks very brief, I trust.

8 Let me first of all give you a little

9 history. The Bureau du Loi Canada changed its name to

10 Barreau du Quebec in 1869; they moved expeditiously

11 (inaudible). The Law Society ---

12 MR. SCOTT: Treasurer, could Mr. Thorn do

13 this from here? The reporter has to get this down and

14 she's really struggling. If you come down a little

15 further the reporter can hear you.

16 MR. THOM: Trouble hearing me?

17 MR. SCOTT: Some people do. I know what

18 you're going to say but the reporter doesn't.

19 MR. SPENCE: Mr. Scott is junior counsel

20 in this case.

21 MR. THOM: Thank you for the

22 instructions. I at this point would like to quote from

23 the opinions expressed by an eminent member of our

24 association of the Society, he can adopt them later as he

25 pleases. But they say what I have to say on this point.

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1 Upper Canada has not existed for a very

2 long time, not, in fact, since 1840. The Law Society now

3 represents the public and lawyers in Ontario and in the

4 profession in Ontario we have the responsibility and the

5 function and the privilege of representing them and acting

6 on their behalf, the lawyers of Ontario. The name causes

7 confusion amongst the public and has become an anachronism.

8 I don't think I need to remark on that particular

9 comment.

10 I believe a change in name would reflect

11 our commitment of change into fresh ideas. I have nothing

12 further to add to the motion Mr. Topp and I have advanced

13 today, but would suggest at this time we recognize that we

14 are the Law Society of Ontario, which we are, no matter

15 what other fancy names we have adopted or used in the

16 past, and it is time we now should recognize and give

17 public expression to our position in this Society.

18 THE TREASURER: Thank you Mr. Thorn. Mr.

19 Topp?

20 MR. TOPP: Thank you, Treasurer. I won't

21 speak very long for a change. There are a litany of

22 reasons why we ought to consider changing the name and I

23 want to list some of them. The Law Society of British

24 Columbia; the Law Society of Alberta; the Law Society of

25 Saskatchewan.

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1 MR. EPSTEIN: We get it. We get it.

2 MR. TOPP: Treasurer, notwithstanding

3 associate counsel's admonitions, for his benefit I want to

4 go on.

5 THE TREASURER: Which direction are you

6 going in?

7 MR. TOPP: The Law Society of Manitobai

8 the Law Society of New Brunswicki the Law Society of

9 Newfoundlandi the Law Society of the Northwest

10 Territoriesi Nova Scotia Barristers Societyi the Law

11 Society of Prince Edward Islandi the Law Society of Yukoni

12 and the Law Society of Upper Canada.

13 MR. COPELAND: Sounds good.

14 MR. TOPP: Well, the last matter brings us

15 to the question of where is Upper Canada? Well, I think I

16 have the answer to that question, Treasurer. Upper Canada

17 is a place that is near Queen and University in the City

18 of Toronto. It's on the second floor of one-half of one

19 building. It's in a room about 80 feet by 30 feet and it

20 exists in the minds of some people in this room, but with

21 the greatest of respect, it does not exist in the minds of

22 the average Ontarian.

23 It's my respectful submission that the time

24 has simply arrived to recognize that the people of Ontario

25 ought to have a governing body that governs lawyers with a

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1 recognizable name which reflects Ontario as it is today

2 rather than it was years ago.

3 Recently in the United States Bill Clinton

4 was elected on the image of moving forward. It's time the

5 Law Society gave the image of moving forward and departing

6 from the past.

7 Treasurer, I was about to adopt those

8 wonderful words that you have now denied saying more

9 specifically, sir, of catapulting the Society into the

10 21st century. Now, I can't imagine who would have said

11 those words but had they put those words in my mouth, sir,

12 I would not have denied them.

13 Thank you. I move the adoption.

14 THE TREASURER: I think I'm not in the

15 position to deny those words, Mr. Topp. I denied saying

16 that the name change would occur today. I said that the

17 issue would be on agenda today for discussion and that

18 some people believed that such a change would catapult

19 into the 21st century. That's exactly what I said.

20 MR. TOPP: Thank you, Treasurer. I am

21 delighted to have adopted your words.

22 THE TREASURER: Mr. McKinnon?

23 MR. MCKINNON: Treasurer, I rise in

24 support of the motion brought by Mr. Thorn and Mr. Topp.

25 And I speak as someone who loves history, who is a

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29/01/93 OPEN CONVOCATION 168 ===========================================================

1 director of the Advocates' Society, someone who has some

2 knowledge of the history of our legal profession in this

3 province, who is mindful of the tradition of the words

4 "Upper Canada" and our great tradition since 1970 -- 1797

5 of the Law Society of Upper Canada, but I speak as one

6 also who has chaired the Communications Committee and the

7 French Language Services Committee. And it's very

8 difficult in dealing with our French members to explain Le

9 Barreau du Haut-Canada, the Bar of High Canada - it doesn't

10 sound right - it would be easier I think to deal with the

11 Bar of Ontario, the Barreau du Ontario - it would sound

12 much better to start with and have more relevance to our

13 French members.

14 From the Communications Perspective,

15 frankly there is confusion as Mr. Topp and Mr. Thorn have

16 indicated in the minds of the public as to the Upper

17 Canada Law Society. I think it would be I think it

18 would be more respectful of our citizens to call ourselves

19 what we are, we are the Bar of Ontario. We are the

20 governors of the Law Society of Ontario and I think

21 there's no shame in calling ourselves what we are.

22 I wish to -- to put this in perspective

23 because when we deal with change, we always I think as

24 lawyers should deal with change wisely and put it in

25 context. And I -- I harken to the words of T.S. Eliot

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1 in an essay he wrote after "Strange Gods" in 1934 and let

2 me just read these to you. It speaks of tradition. And

3 he says that:

4 " ... the sound tree will put forth new

5 leaves, and the dry tree should be put

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

to the axe. We are always in danger,

in clinging to an old tradition, or

attempting to re-establish one, of

confusing the vital and the

unessential, the real and the

sentimental. Our second danger is to

associate tradition with the immovable;

to think of it as something hostile to

all change; to aim to return to some

previous condition which we imagined as

having been capable of preservation in

perpetuity, instead of aiming to

stimulate the life which produced that

condition in its own time.

It is not of advantage to us to indulge

in a sentimental attitude toward the

past. For one thing, in even the very

best living tradition there is always a

mixture of good and bad, and much that

deserves criticism; and for another,

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1 tradition is not a matter of feeling

2 alone. Nor can we safely, without very

3 critical examination, dig ourselves in

4 stubbornly to a few dogmatic notions,

5 for what is a healthy belief at one

6 time may, unless it is one of the few

7 fundamental things, be a pernicious

8 prejudice at another ... What we can do

9 is to use our minds, remembering that a

10 tradition without intelligence is not

11 worth having, to discover what is the

12 best life for us not as a political

13 abstraction, but as a particular people

14 in a particular place; what in the past

15 is worth preserving and what should be

16 rejected; and what conditions, within

17 our power to bring about, would foster

18 the society we desire."

19 Now, I cannot think or conceive of a better

20 description or analysis of what true tradition constitutes

21 and taking the lesson of Eliot, I would say he who

22 modernized the idiom that we all used to and rejecting old

23 romantic notions of idiom, I think we can take lessons

24 from Eliot and apply them to our own Society.

25 To suggest that it is a betrayal of

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1 tradition to change the name of our Society with respect I

2 think is a betrayal of the notion of what truly is

3 meritorious in the concept of tradition and I encourage

4 adoption of the motion.

5 THE TREASURER: Thank you, Mr. McKinnon.

6 MR. O'BRIEN: Can I ask is there a second

7 motion on this?

8 THE TREASURER: There is about to be.

9 Thank you, Mr. O'Brien. Mr. Epstein?

10 MR. EPSTEIN: It's hard to follow T.S.

11 Eliot; all I know about T.S. Eliot is he wrote "Cats"

12 and I liked "Cats."

13 Unlike Mr. Thorn, I don't apologize for

14 Convocation having to deal with this matter because I

15 think it is of some significance because I think changing

16 the name represents an important symbol to the Law

17 Society, and while I agree with all of the comments made

18 about the change of the name and if there is a referendum,

19 which I am about to propose, I will vote to change the

20 name.

21 But I think that the members are entitled

22 to be heard and make a decision on this issue. This has

23 been the name of the Society for almost 200 years and it

24 is important that if we are going to discuss and consider

25 changing it, that the members be consulted. There are

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1 many who have a strong and abiding feeling that the Law

2 Society of Upper Canada is now our name, has been our name

3 and ought not to be changed, and there are many of those,

4 the three who have spoken thus far today, who feel

5 strongly that we ought to change the name: I am among

6 them.

7 I do think it represents a symbolic jump

8 into the 21st century and I think we ought to do it. But

9 this is akin to a constitutional change and while it is

10 not the change in the words of our constitution, it is

11 changing a very significant part of it in that it is our

12 name and our name represents something. And in my view,

13 the members ought to be heard on this issue.

14 I think the fact that we have a referendum

15 on this issue will stir interest in the Law Society. I

16 can see various counties and districts having Oxford style

17 debates and hearing both sides of the issue. I think it

18 would be an exciting thing to do and while I do not

19 generally believe that it is our role or obligation or a

20 necessity to consult the membership on each and every

21 issue, I do think that something as fundamental as this

22 ought to go to the membership and therefore I move that

23 the Law Society of Upper Canada membership be polled by

24 way of a referendum to determine whether we ought to

25 change the name to the Law Society of Ontario and the head

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1 of the Law Society -- the head of the Law Society to

2 President.

3 Now, I gather a number of people wish to

4 second that, Mr. Somerville?

5 THE TREASURER: Mr. Somerville is

6 seconding that motion.

7 MR. SOMERVILLE: Yes, I do.

8 MR. EPSTEIN: I initially in my letter

9 indicated to you, Treasurer, that I also propose this be

10 held at the time of the next Bencher election to take

11 place at the bicentennial. I think we ought to deal with

12 that separately, so at the moment I simply move that there

13 be a referendum and then if that passes, I think we ought

14 to have some short debate as to when that referendum ought

15 to take place.

16 I have reconsidered and I think it ought to

17 take place immediately but we can deal with that in due

18 course.

19 THE TREASURER: All right. There are

20 other speakers: Mr. Bragagnolo, Mr. Feinstein, Mr. Howie

21 and Mr. Somerville. Mr. Bragagnolo?

22 MR. BRAGAGNOLO: Yes. I'd like to speak

23 against both motions and I think we should continue the

24 name of the Law Society of Upper Canada and the head of

25 the Law Society should be the Treasurer. And I say that

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1 for the following reasons: The public doesn't care

2 whether the name is the Law Society of Upper Canada or the

3 Law Society of Ontario. If they get into any trouble

4 they're going to go see their lawyer and it doesn't matter

5 one way or the other what the name is. They don't even

6 care that our Dial-A-Law and our referral system, there's

7 no problem with the public associating themselves with the

8 Law Society of Upper Canada.

9 Secondly, what about the cost? I am

10 advised by our chief librarian there are 150,000 volumes

11 endorsed with the Law Society of Upper Canada. What about

12 the cost of -- are we going to embellish those 150,000

13 with the new? What about the certificates that have been

14 issued by the Law Society of Upper Canada? Are we going

15 to change that? And what's the cost involved in all

16 that?

17 I say that we have to look at the pragmatic

18 aspect as well. So for historical reasons I say leave it

19 alone, it's been with us for a long time. I don't think

20 the Bar of Ontario have any problems whether they be

21 French or sons of recent immigrants or otherwise in

22 associating the name of the Law Society of Upper Canada

23 with the ruling body governing body of the Ontario Bar.

24 And I would add just to my friend to say

25 that brevity is the soul of wit, so I'm going to be very

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1 witty right now.

2 THE TREASURER: Mr. Feinstein?

3 MR. FEINSTEIN: Through you, Treasurer, to

4 Mr. Topp. Do you think Canadian Tire should change its

5 name?

6 THE TREASURER: Mr. Howie?

7 MR. HOWIE: My nemesis -- one of my

8 nemesis, Treasurer, in the Finance Committee is my former

9 student, that recent son of immigrants, Mr. Bragagnolo.

10 And he refers to something that I would remind Convocation

11 and that is I wrote down exactly the same thing, there is

12 a real cost problem, so that I strongly tell you that if

13 you follow the policy of the Law Society, there's no way

14 we can vote on this issue until there is a budget which

15 has been prepared and it seems to me that the logical

16 thing to do, and I'm only speaking to this and I may give

17 away how I feel about this personally, I don't propose to

18 speak to that issue, I support the issue of the referendum

19 only because I think it will put the issue to rest.

20 Hopefully it will go a certain way but that doesn't

21 matter.

22 It seems to me, though, what needs to be

23 done if we do decide that there's to be a referendum, it

24 would be subject to these things. The appointment of a

25 special committee and that special committee would be

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1 charged with the function of bringing a budget to

2 Convocation, or at least to the Finance Committee for

3 approval; secondly, timing; and third, wording of the

4 referendum.

5 It seems to me there's there's no way

6 Convocation is going to put this issue by way of wording

7 into something we can agree upon.

8 That's my submission of what needs to be

9 done if it goes further or if the motion for referendum is

10 passed.

11 THE TREASURER: Thank you, Mr. Howie. Mr.

12 Somerville?

13 MR. SOMERVILLE: Actually, Treasurer, I

14 put my hand up to second the motion. I'll speak therefore

15 very briefly.

16 I seldom think that a referendum or

17 plebiscite is useful. I think that we're elected to

18 govern the profession and to decide policy issues and we

19 have the ability to hear a great deal of research and work

20 of our committees before making our decision.

21 I think this is an exception, however,

22 because I think it's a matter to which frankly the opinion

23 of every member of the profession carries equal weight. I

24 predict that there will be a large percentage of the

25 profession who will wish to retain the name Law Society of

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1 Upper Canada. Indeed, it may be a majority.

2 If I were forced to vote today, I would

3 vote in favour of the change for some of the reasons that

4 have been expressed by Mr. Thorn and Mr. Topp and Mr.

5 McKinnon. But I think it's a reasonable proposition to

6 invite all members of the Society to express their opinion

7 at this time. I frankly see no down side to that.

8 I think the cost issue is a red hearing. I

9 think we would obviously phase it in over a period of time

10 and I see no reason to change the name on the spine of any

11 book in the Great Library. I predict all of that would be

12 of quite historical interest.

13 But I think that we can do this in a cost

14 effective way should the profession at large feel this is

15 appropriate. I think it's a way in which to engage the

16 profession's interest in the Society and I see no reason

17 why we would not want to ask their opinion in this matter.

18 THE TREASURER: Thank you, Mr.

19 Somerville. Mr. Farquharson?

20 MR. FARQUHARSON: Well, Mr. Somerville

21 said that as a governing body we should have the ability

22 to decide these matters. Surely it was demonstrated

23 recently that governments don't really appreciate the

24 position of the governed and that was very clearly

25 demonstrated in the recent Charlottetown Accord

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1 referendum. The people in this country have an entirely

2 different point of view than the government and all those

3 close to the government.

4 There's no doubt in my mind that throughout

5 the profession in this province, they do not ask for such

6 a change and they wouldn,t support such a change. When

7 these matters are discussed by Convocation, whether it's

8 Q.C. 1 S or the name of the Treasurer or the oath to the

9 Queen, the word anachronism is used from time-to-time.

10 It's trotted out and I take it that means that we,re not

11 up-to-date. Everything,s up-to-date in Kansas City and

12 they,ve gone as far as they can go. Are we to follow

13 suit?

14 Now, they don 1 t have any reason to change

15 the name of the Law Society of Saskatchewan because it was

16 always Saskatchewan or possibly "Pile of Bones." We

17 weren,t always Ontario. In the beginning I understand at

18 one time we were referred to as the Wilderness West of the

19 west boundary of Quebec.

20 MR. SOMERVILLE: Seconded.

21 MR. FARQUHARSON: And what a beautiful

22 wilderness it was. Lakes and streams. We became Upper

23 Canada I think around 1790, some 200 years ago. The first

24 legislative act was to call for an election for a

25 legislative assembly. Shortly thereafter there was an

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1 enactment to abolish slavery in this part of the world and

2 years in advance of such enactment in the rest

3 of the British Commonwealth, some 60 years before the

4 emancipation of the United States.

5 Within a few short years of our beginnings

6 we had to take on the invasion from the United States, we

7 took on the enemy in '10 to '21. And we succeeded. We

8 have a glorious past and it was all under the name of the

9 Upper Canada.

10 Now, I think I am told the oldest

11 corporation in the world is the Hudson's Bay Company and

12 it started back in the early 17th century, adventurers

13 into Hudson Bay. Since then they have branched out and

14 they have taken on different fields of commerce but there

15 doesn't seem to be any movement to change the name from

16 the Hudson's Bay Company. If you look at their letterhead

17 it says, "The Hudson's Bay Company, Established 1630" or

18 thereabouts, "A.D." just in case you get the idea of a

19 B.C.; they're very proud of that. They don't want to

20 change it.

21 When we started, and surely the Law Society

22 of Upper Canada must be probably the oldest corporation in

23 Ontario. And that was the same, and I suggest that

24 there's no reason to change or to turn our backs on that

25 name. It's something to be proud of.

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1 In my county, the first settlers were some

2 28 years after Simcoe came and the first Crown grants were

3 to veterans of the Battle of Waterloo, so that the -- we

4 shouldn't turn our backs on our history.

5 I suggest with respect to -- although

6 someone spoke with admiration of Governor Clinton or

7 President Clinton, some 59 per cent of the people voted

8 against him. And I suggest that if this was put to a

9 referendum, there would be an equal number if we could get

10 them out to vote.

11 THE TREASURER: Thank you, Mr.

12 Farquharson. Mr. Pepper?

13 MR. PEPPER: Treasurer, I feel as equally

14 as Mr. Farquharson about history but one reason I would

15 put forward for maintaining our name is that Canada has a

16 tradition of colourful and mysterious names and Upper

17 Canada is one of them. I find it very dull to change the

18 name to the Law Society of Ontario. If you look at the

19 Toronto phone book under 0 for Ontario, there are 15

20 columns of associations that put Ontario. For your

21 enjoyment I copied down one or two. The Ontario

22 Association of Bakeries, Ontario Association of Billiards,

23 Ontario Association of Bottled Water! Well, I got fed up

24 after B, but the next one starts the Ontario Association

25 of Concrete Blocks!

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1 When I look around this lovely province,

2 names that are magic to me and mysterious to some extent

3 because they're Indian names, like Muskoka, Temiskaming,

4 Kitigan, Kakabeka Falls and in Manitoba names like

5 Minnedosa and Neepawa and the Cree names in Saskatchewan -

6 that's all they have - the Saskatchewan River comes from

7 the Cree which means river. I find that Saskatoon - no

8 doubt Mr. Thorn knows this - is named after a red edible

9 berry that they have in that particular neck of the

10 country. Don't forget that in Saskatchewan they've got a

11 place called Moosejaw and next door in Alberta Medicine

12 Hat and a bit above that Yellowknife and in British

13 Columbia all those K's - Kamloops, Kootenay, Kitimat,

14 Kelowna.

15 A name like Upper Canada - the Lower

16 Mainland, they don't change the Lower Mainland, there are

17 many associations called by that - the Lower Mainland

18 Dairy or the Lower Mainland, this near Vancouver, and on

19 Vancouver Island there's a great lake Esquimalt and the

20 islands. (Inaudible) He came from that wonderful place

21 called Bumblebee Bite, Newfoundland.

22 It takes a dull man to want to change our

23 name. I really can't quote T.S. Eliot, but I can quote

24 another poet who said how "stale, flat and unprofitable

25 are to me all the uses of this life." And for those

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1 reasons, in addition to historic reasons which if there's

2 another debate I'd be glad to talk about, I am opposed to

3 the matter.

4 THE TREASURER: Thank you. Mr. Jarvis?

5 MR. JARVIS: Treasurer, I take a purely

6 aesthetic approach to this following closely on what Barry

7 Pepper has said. Aesthetic judgments aren't subject to

8 critical analysis and they have their own validity, if we

9 were to change the name, just try on in your imagination

10 now there's a special committee has approached the Federal

11 Government to ask for a special issue of a stamp and of a

12 coin, just try out this aesthetic aspect of it. Try on in

13 your mind, imagine the stamp with the proposed name.

14 Imagine the silver coin with the proposed name.

15 Briefly what I think you have is a very

16 valuable piece of intellectual property and you've had it

17 for a long time. Don't change it now.

18 THE TREASURER: Thank you, Mr. Jarvis.

19 Mr. Wardlaw?

20 MR. WARDLAW: Treasurer, I hesitate to

21 speak after Mr. Pepper has spoken because he has said so

22 much better the sentiments that I have, but I think that

23 there is no person in this room who is not able to

24 distinguish the difference between substance and form and

25 I think that we all know that what we are seeking is a

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1 change in form and in the long run it doesn't matter squat

2 what the difference is so far as the public is concerned.

3 But it's often been said that we don't know

4 where we're going if we don't know where we've been and

5 this is just one of those things to destroy a knowledge of

6 where we've been. It's one of those things that is a

7 change for the sake of change. It's not the sake

8 change for the sake of anything of substance.

9 Where is the Law Society of Upper Canada?

10 The statement was made that it's in a geographic

11 position. I suggest that that's wrong. I suggest that

12 the Law Society of Upper Canada is not in a geographic

13 position but rather that it's in the hearts and souls of a

14 great many of our profession and if it comes to it, I'm

15 going to support the referendum but for a completely

16 different reason. It's very hard for a person like me who

17 just barely got into the 19th century to try to catapult

18 into the 21st, but I have a concern about a legislative

19 change or, sorry, a concern about the change because it

20 needs legislative sanction so I suppose if it carries,

21 until we get the legislative change we've got to have on

22 our coins and our stamps and our stationery, "The Law

23 Society of Upper Canada carrying on business as the Law

24 Society of Ontario.

25 II It's pretty obvious that Art Scace makes

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1 all the balls and gets others to fire them because Scace

2 made this particular ball and then disappeared. So he's

3 not here to second what I'm going to suggest. But this is

4 nevertheless one that I haven't lobbied for a seconder,

5 but which I saw Mark Somerville use most effectively in

6 the last Convocation. I'm going to move to table both

7 resolutions.

8 THE TREASURER: Is there a seconder for

9 that motion?

10 MS. WEAVER: I'll second that motion.

11 THE TREASURER: The motion at the table

12 cannot be debated. That's right. So we'll put the

13 question. All if in favour of tabling the motions?

14 Opposed? Lost.

15 THE TREASURER: Mr. Lamek, then Miss

16 Peters, Mr. Copeland and then Mr. Epstein. Mr. Lamek?

17 MR. LAMEK: Thank you, Treasurer. We

18 heard history and sentiment and pride, all the murmur has

19 been on one side of this debate. I share the views of

20 history and sentiment and pride and I am very strongly in

21 favour of traditions that do no harm and if a tradition

22 can be demonstrated to be harmful, then I am as ready as

23 anybody to scratch it and move on to something that is not

24 harmful.

25 What concerns me, Treasurer, is that I have

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1 not heard a case made by the proponents of these motions,

2 Mr. Thorn echoed by Mr. Topp --

3 MR. TOPP: The dull fellow.

4 MR. LAMEK: advanced the proposition

5 that the name that we have causes confusion among the

6 public. I do not need to enlarge upon that. With the

7 utmost of respect, that's exactly what we need to enlarge

8 upon. I have seen no evidence of confusion of the public

9 from the use of this name and I do not know whether Mr.

10 Thorn or his supporters have any empirical evidence of

11 confusion. They've chosen not to make us aware of it and

12 they've asked us to accept it as self-evident truth that

13 the name is confusing. I for one am not ready to accept

14 their assertion as evidencing the truth. I have yet to

15 see a single soul wandering dazingly around Nathan

16 Phillips Square looking a Law Society of Upper Canada -

17 "I've come to the wrong place - I'm looking for something

18 else!" There isn't the confusion or at least there is no

19 evidence of confusion.

20 If there is confusion, it is over the term

21 "Law Society." Have you ever stood, Treasurer, or has

22 any member of Convocation ever stood beside the

23 receptionist who answers the telephone down by the east

24 door of Osgoode Hall? She has no trouble with the Law

25 Society of the Upper Canada. She has people wanting to

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1 have their lawyer's bills assessed, wanting to know if

2 they can get in touch with this department or that

3 service. What we do under the title "Law Society" does

4 not appear to cause confusion and it is a fact that we do

5 it under the name of the what this province used to be.

6 And so in my respectful submission, there

7 is no case made out on the basis of confusion. Mr.

8 McKinnon interestingly enough, although concerned there is

9 confusion, really happily talks about being a member of

10 the Advocate Society which may well itself be sufficiently

11 confusing.

12 MR. MCKINNON: Did I say Advocate? I

13 meant Osgoode. Would you change it, Madame Reporter?

14 MR. LAMEK: The other ground being urged

15 in favour of changing the name is the rush to modernity.

16 It's as though we'll all sitting around like Rocket

17 Richard saying, "Hey, I've got black hair now, I use

18 Grecian Formula!" It doesn't make him skate any better.

19 He's still an old man.

20 Changing the name isn't going to change how

21 we do it or what we do or, essentially, in my respectful

22 submission, how we are perceived by the public. They will

23 perceive us as being fuddy-duddies or modern, open or

24 secretive, high bound or open to change, not because we've

25 changed a name but because of what we do and in my

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1 respectful submission, we've come a very long way in the

2 very recent past to change the imagine that we project to

3 the public, and I have heard nobody say, "Ah, but what you

4 really need to do is change that imagine is change your

5 name. If you ever did that then by God, we'd believe you

6 were serious about being modern and open."

7 If it has to be, Treasurer, I would support

8 a referendum or plebiscite of the profession, but I fear

9 greatly that if this question goes to the profession

10 they'll say what are you people doing? Why are you

11 wasting your time and ours on this when there are far more

12 pressing demands on this profession than this?

13 If I have to vote in favour of one of these

14 motions it will be for a referendum. My preference would

15 be to vote against both of them.

16 THE TREASURER: Thank you, Mr. Lamek.

17 Miss Peters?

18 MS. PETERS: Thank you, Treasurer. As the

19 Chair of the French Language Services Committee for the

20 last year and a half, I must say that I have not received

21 one complaint from one single Francophone complaining

22 about the name of this organization. So I don't know

23 whether my friend Mr. McKinnon has received messages to

24 the contrary, but I certainly have not and I have attended

25 meetings with Francophones from all across Canada.

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1 Obviously this is an emotional issue and

2 the members, in my view, of the Law Society should have a

3 right to indicate to us what their views are.

4 I understand the difference between a

5 plebiscite and a referendum is you have to accept the

6 outcome of a referendum but we do not have to accept the

7 outcome of a plebiscite. If only 30 per cent of the

8 voters vote in a plebiscite, then it may not be

9 representative and we don't have to accept it and we can

10 then go to debate it, but I certainly feel that we

11 should find out what other members are thinking.

12 As a fall-back position and I must say this

13 was not my idea but that of Colin Campbell, with whom I

14 was speaking at lunch, there is also the suggestion that

15 we could consider calling the Law Society is the Law

16 Society of Upper Canada, also known as the Law Society of

17 Ontario, or I was hoping someone who knows about corporate

18 names could tell us as to how we could still keep the name

19 of Law Society of Upper Canada while indicating that we

20 could be referred to as the Law Society of Ontario.

21 THE TREASURER: Mr. Copeland?

22 MR. COPELAND: I'll be brief, Treasurer.

23 Mr. Lamek has said virtually everything I wanted to say.

24 What I noted down before he spoke is what the movers of

25 this motion are talking about is an appearance of change

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1 rather than reality of change. This vote is going to be

2 progressive and some of us have different views as to how

3 progressive it is - we'll have to do it by our actions and

4 not by changing our name.

5 On the issue of the referendum, I am quite

6 content to let the profession decide this issue. I agree

7 with Mr. Lamek that they may wonder why we are doing it.

8 If there are people around who feel it's appropriate to

9 have an expression from the profession on it, I'm quite

10 content that happen.

11 THE TREASURER: Thank you, Mr. Copeland.

12 Mr. Epstein and then Mr. Bastedo and Mr. O'Brien.

13 MR. EPSTEIN: I just wanted to point out,

14 Treasurer and fellow Benchers, the level of this debate

15 was probably the best level of debate we've had around

16 this table for a very long period of time and I want you

17 to envisage the members of our Society also debating it in

18 the same fashion.

19 I think this discussion is timely, I think

20 there is much to be said on both sides of the argument,

21 but the issue will not go away and it ought to be put to

22 rest and it ought to be put to rest in a fashion that

23 everyone can talk about.

24 Can you imagine the interest that would be

25 generated by having people like Mr. Pepper debate people

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1 on the other side of the issue in a public forum. I think

2 it's a very exciting prospect of the Society and they,

3 too, can get the benefit of this kind of debate.

4 THE TREASURER: Thank you Mr. Epstein.

5 Mr. Bastedo?

6 MR. BASTEDO: Treasurer, like Mr. Copeland

7 I will be very brief. I support the motion by Mr. Thorn

8 and Mr. Topp. In one sentence I believe that the name

9 which we have is exclusionary and does not encompass all

10 of the various aspects which is endemic in our Society

11 today and the Law Society has to reflect that.

12 With respect to whether it should be a

13 referendum or not, I am in favour of making the decision

14 today and getting on with it and if Mr. McKinnon would

15 like to give us his talk on the speech of Edmund Burke

16 before the electorate of Bristol for the fourth time, then

17 I have to defer to that. That is the reason why Edmund

18 Burke said we should decide they things here and we should

19 get on with it!

20 THE TREASURER: Mr. O'Brien?

21 MR. O'BRIEN: This problem has been around

22 for a long time. I was Treasurer in 1966 and there were

23 some letters about it and discussion. It never got very

24 far because anybody that we approached all said "you're

25 silly, don't touch it." This is the way it's been ever

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1 since but a curious thing is at that time, I looked in the

2 telephone book under "Upper Canada," and there were about

3 six organizations using the name: Upper Canada College,

4 Upper Canada Bible Society, the Law Society of Upper

5 Canada.

6 Today there are three columns of "Upper

7 Canada." It's become popular. It's a happening name.

8 It's going places. It's a distinctive name. If we

9 changed it to "Ontario" like the government, they'd look

10 for us in the blue pages at the back of the telephone

11 book.

12 Mr. Pepper has spoken much better than I

13 about some of the fine names in this country but he didn't

14 mention railways, and there was, when I was younger, a

15 railway in Ontario called the Temiskaming and Nothern

16 Ontario Railway. It was world famous. People came from

17 the United States to look at it. This name was great!

18 Similarly in British Columbia there was the Pacific Great

19 Eastern. It bore no relation to British Columbia, but it

20 was a great name. People came from all over the United

21 States to ride on it. The British Columbia government

22 changed it to the British Columbia Railway. We changed it

23 to the Ontario Northland and it is forgotten; they're

24 nothing.

25 Now, we have out in the main lobby of this

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1 building over the doorway of the library a plaster figure

2 and some years ago some American architects came here at a

3 convention and they came up here and one of them said with

4 astonishment, he says, "For heaven's sake, there's the

5 first depiction I've ever seen of the Coat of Arms of

6 Upper Canada!" They were all fascinated by this and it's

7 still there. It's so far as I know the only public

8 display of Upper Canada.

9 If you want to carry this to its logical

10 conclusion, we might as well change this from Osgoode Hall

11 to Dublin Hall or McMurtry Hall. It makes more sense.

12 I think it is necessary to get the

13 sentiment of the profession. If we don't we will be

14 attacked as a lot of old fogies who want to keep this

15 name. I can see both sides of this argument. There isn't

16 any ill will or ill feeling in this body because we

17 respect each other's views. But let's have the profession

18 at large - and I prefer a plebiscite to a referendum

19 because we have don't know the percentage of people going

20 to vote.

21 THE TREASURER: Thank you, Mr. O'Brien.

22 Are there others who wish to speak? Miss Palmer?

23 MS. PALMER: Treasurer, I rise merely on

24 the point that Mr. Lamek had raised whether there is

25 empirical data as to the recognition of our name and I'd

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1 like to remind members of the bench that the survey last

2 year, only 17 per cent of the members of the public

3 surveyed could name our name as being the governing body

4 of the legal profession in this province. 17 per cent.

5 So with respect to the access issue, I

6 would suggest that we should consider changing our name to

7 the Law Society of Ontario. We'll still be found under L

8 in the phone book and for that reason I support the views

9 of Mr. Thorn, Mr. Topp, Mr. McKinnon and Mr. Somerville and

10 Mr. Bastedo.

11 THE TREASURER: I think we're approaching

12 the point where we can put the questions. There are two

13 motions on the floor and let me get the sense of

14 Convocation as to which should go first.

15 MR. EPSTEIN: Point of order. I think in

16 fairness there has to be a third because otherwise people

17 like Mr. Pepper and Mr. Lamek are put in an impossible

18 position because they don't know whether they should vote

19 for a referendum or vote for the name change in fear of

20 what might happen. Perhaps there ought to be a motion as

21 to whether we ought to consider a name change. Otherwise

22 how do people like Mr. Pepper and Mr. Lamek ---

23 THE TREASURER: What I was going to

24 suggest, Mr. Epstein, we first deal with the Thom\Topp

25 motion, which means that those who doesn't want any change

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1 can vote no to that. Those who want a change can vote in

2 favour. If that doesn't pass I guess we could still go to

3 the second motion which has the possibility of a

4 referendum.

5 MR. EPSTEIN: What if it passes? People

6 on the other side have the same problem.

7 MR. THOM: The motion is steps be taken,

8 the first motion passes, then Mr. Epstein's motion will be

9 ready, that will be a step. But first of all is

10 Convocation generally in favour of that change; that is

11 the first motion.

12 THE TREASURER: I think I should put -- I

13 may be in a position where I have to put both motions in

14 any event. If I put the Thom\Topp motion first and

15 whether or not it passes I put the second -- I put the

16 second motion for the referendum. I think that's the

17 position.

18 MR. EPSTEIN: You can vote both for yes

19 and end up with a referendum.

20 THE TREASURER: You can do what you like

21 but I have to put both motions.

22 MR. MCKINNON: Treasurer, I call for a

23 role call on this one but second, I vote for an amendment

24 -- I move an amendment to the second motion or maybe the

25 mover would accept the substitution of the word plebiscite

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1 for the word referendum.

2 MR. EPSTEIN: I certainly won't accept

3 that. I'm opposed to a plebiscite.

4 THE TREASURER: For those of you who are

5 flagging, let me point out at my own point of order the

6 Treasurer's Ad Hoc Committee is meeting immediately after

7 and doubles be will be served. Miss Peters?

8 MS. PETERS: Since we can't persuade the

9 move to change the word, I'd like to move a motion that we

10 have the same motion but that the word "plebiscite" be

11 used.

12 MR. MCKINNON: I'll second that.

13 THE TREASURER: That will be the third

14 motion.

15 Okay. Let's put the motions then. First

16 motion is the motion at tab 2 of the book, moved by Mr.

17 Thorn, seconded by Mr. Topp and it's there to be read and

18 there's a role call vote on that. Mr. Secretary?

19 THE SECRETARY: Mr.

20 THE TREASURER: Mr. Thorn

21 THE SECRETARY: I was going to start in

22 the middle of the alphabet. Mr. Bastedo?

23 MR. BASTEDO: Yes.

24 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Bragagnolo?

25 MR. BRAGAGNOLO: No.

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THE SECRETARY: Mr. Brennan?

MR. BRENNAN: Yes.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Campbell? Mr.

Copeland?

MR. COPELAND: No.

THE SECRETARY: Miss Curtis? Miss

Elliott?

MS. ELLIOTT: Yes.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Epstein? MR.

EPSTEIN: Abstain.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Feinstein?

MR. FEINSTEIN: No.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Finkelstein? MR.

FINKELSTEIN: Yes.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Goudge?

MR. GOUDGE: Yes.

THE SECRETARY: Ms. Graham?

MS. GRAHAM: I don't know. This has

been the hardest thing to vote on.

Okay then, I'm going to say no.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Hill?

MR. HILL: No.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Howie?

MR. HOWIE: No.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Howland? Mr.

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Krishna?

MR. KRISHNA: No.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Lamek?

MR. LAMEK: No.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Lamont?

MR. LAMONT: No.

THE SECRETARY: Miss Lax?

MS. LAX: Yes.

THE SECRETARY: Mrs. Legge? Mr.

Levy?

MR. LEVY: No.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. McKinnon?

MR. MCKINNON: Yes.

THE SECRETARY: Ms. Mohideen?

MS. MOHIDEEN: Yes.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Murray?

MR. MURRAY: No.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. O'Brien?

MR. O'BRIEN: No.

THE SECRETARY: Miss Palmer?

MS. PALMER: Yes.

THE SECRETARY: Miss Peters?

MS. PETERS: No.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Scott?

MR. SCOTT: No.

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1 THE SECRETARY: Miss Sealy?

2 MS. SEALY: Yes.

3 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Somerville?

4 MR. SOMERVILLE: I changed my mind.

5 No.

6 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Spence?

7 MR. SPENCE: Abstain.

8 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Thorn?

9 MR. THOM: Yes.

10 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Topp?

11 MR. TOPP: Yes.

12 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Wardlaw?

13 MR. WARDLAW: No.

14 THE SECRETARY: Miss Weaver?

15 MS. WEAVER: No.

16 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Yachetti's gone. Is

17 there anybody that I've missed? Okay.

18 The motion is lost.

19 THE TREASURER: Sorry, the motion is lost

20 17 to 12?

21 THE SECRETARY: Yes.

22 THE TREASURER: Now, may I have the views

23 of Convocation whether the other motions do have to be

24 put, the two others?

25 -- Reporter's Note: Various discussion around the room.

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1 THE TREASURER: The motion was that steps

2 be taken and Convocation has said no steps should be

3 taken.

4 MR. MCKINNON: There are many who would

5 vote yes to the referendum.

6 THE TREASURER: I think I have to put the

7 next motion. I said I would. The next motion is that a

8 referendum be held without specifying time or the

9 question. And this was moved by Mr. Epstein, seconded by

10 Mr. Somerville, a referendum to change the name of the Law

11 Society of Upper Canada to the Law Society of Ontario and

12 to change the name of the Treasurer to the President.

13 That's the motion. Referendum on those questions. All

14 those in favour shall --

15 THE SECRETARY: You want a role call

16 vote?

17 THE TREASURER: We're going to call a

18 motion on the plebiscite as well. All three motions will

19 be voted on.

20 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Bastedo?

21 MR. BASTEDO: I'm sorry, would you repeat

22 the motion, please? I'm sorry.

23 THE SECRETARY: That the Law Society of

24 Upper Canada's membership be polled by way of referendum

25 to determine whether the name should be changed to the Law

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1 Society of Ontario and the title of Treasurer to be

2 changed to President.

3 MR. BASTEDO: Is there a request to have

4 another vote as well? I note no for that one.

5 MR. PEPPER: Treasurer, aren't we going to

6 look silly to have this vote after the last vote?

7 THE TREASURER: Mr. Pepper, I indicated to

8 Convocation at the outset that I was going to put all the

9 motions because some people might not want to initiate

10 steps but might want to consult the profession on the

11 subject. And I think the first motion was that the Law

12 Society should not itself initiate steps.

13 Now, we're voting on the question whether

14 we should put to the profession the question of a change

15 and let them decide. I think that's the only fair way of

16 canvassing all the issues that have arisen this

17 afternoon.

18 MR. PEPPER: Forgive me, aren't our

19 electorate going to say, what you people doing? We

20 elected you to make these decisions.

21 THE TREASURER: That was a matter for

22 debate and that point was made. That will be taken into

23 account as people vote on the motion on the merits. Is

24 this a point of order?

25 MR. MCKINNON: Point of procedure,

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1 Treasurer. I thought in terms of gradation the plebiscite

2 question would be the next in order.

3 THE TREASURER: I disagree.

4 MR. MCKINNON: That would reserve to

5 Convocation decision-making process of ---

6 THE TREASURER: I think we should proceed

7 now with the referendum vote. We have a vote in for Mr.

8 Bastedo.

9 MR. BASTEDO: My understanding made on a

10 point of order is a referendum is a decision-making

11 process. I vote no.



14 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Brennan?

15 MR. BRENNAN: On that same understanding,

16 no.

17 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Copeland?

18 MR. COPELAND: Yes.

19 THE TREASURER: Miss Elliott?

20 MS. ELLIOTT: Yes.

21 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Epstein?

22 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes.

23 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Feinstein?

24 MR. FEINSTEIN: No.

25 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Finkelstein?

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MR. FINKELSTEIN: No.


MR. GOUDGE: No.

THE SECRETARY: Ms. Graham?

MS. GRAHAM: No.


MR. HILL: No.


MR. HOWIE: No.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Krishna?

MR. KRISHNA: No.


MR. LAMEK: No.


MR. LAMONT: No.


MS. LAX: No.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Levy?

MR. LEVY: No.


MR. MCKINNON: For the reasons given by

Edmund Burke, no.

THE SECRETARY: Miss Mohideen?

MS. MOHIDEEN: Yes.


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:MR. MURRAY: No.


:MR.. O'BRIEN: No.

THE SECRETARY: Miss Palmer?

MS. PALMER: Yes.

THE SECRETARY: Miss Peters?

MS. PETERS: On the basis of the next

position that is going to put, I vote no.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Scott?

:MR. SCOTT: Yes.

THE SECRETARY: Miss Sealy?

MS. SEALY: Yes.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Somerville?

:MR. SOMERVILLE: No.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Spence?

:MR. SPENCE: Abstain.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Thorn?

:MR.. THOM: No.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Topp?

:MR. TOPP: Yes.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Wardlaw?

:MR. WARDLAW: No.

THE SECRETARY: Miss Weaver?

MS. WEAVER: No.

THE TREASURER: The motion fails 20 to

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1 eight. The last motion, would you read that one, Mr.

2 Secretary, please?

3 THE SECRETARY: It's that the Law Society

4 of Upper Canada's membership be polled by way of

5 plebiscite to determine whether the name should be changed

6 to the Law Society of Ontario and the title Treasurer

7 changed to President.

8 THE TREASURER: Okay. And the role call

9 vote?

10 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Bastedo?

11 MR. BASTEDO: No.



14 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Brennan?

15 MR. BRENNAN: Yes.

16 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Copeland?

17 MR. COPELAND: No.

18 THE SECRETARY: Miss Elliott?

19 MS. ELLIOTT: Yes.

20 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Epstein?

21 MR. EPSTEIN: No.

22 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Feinstein?

23 MR. FEINSTEIN: No.

24 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Finkelstein?

25 MR. FINKELSTEIN: No.

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MR. GOUDGE: No.

THE SECRETARY: Miss Graham?

MS. GRAHAM: No.


MR. HILL: No.


MR. HOWIE: No.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Krishna?

MR. KRISHNA: No.


MR. LAMEK: No.


MR. LAMONT: No.


MS. LAX: Yes.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Levy?

MR. LEVY: No.


MR. MCKINNON: Yes.

THE SECRETARY: Miss Mohideen?

MS. MOHIDEEN: No.


MR. MURRAY: No.


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1 MR. O'BRIEN: No.

2 THE SECRETARY: Miss Palmer?

3 MS. PALMER: Yes.

4 THE SECRETARY: Miss Peters?

5 MS. PETERS: Yes.

6 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Scott?

7 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

8 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Sealy?

9 MS. SEALY: No.

10 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Somerville?

11 MR. SOMERVILLE: No.

12 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Spence?

13 MR. SPENCE: Abstain.

14 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Thorn?

15 MR. THOM: Yes.

16 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Topp?

17 MR. TOPP: Yes.

18 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Wardlaw?

19 MR. WARDLAW: No.

20 THE SECRETARY: Mrs. Weaver?

21 MS. WEAVER: No.

22 THE TREASURER: That motion fails 21 to 9

23 and if history is any judge and the cycles of history

24 repeat themselves, that should buy us five more years

25 before the motion is back. We're adjourned.

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1 -- Convocation adjourned at 3:30.

2 --------

3 This is to certify that

4 the foregoing is a true

5 and accurate transcript

6 of my notes to the best

10 Kim Neeson, C.S.R.

11 Official Court Reporter

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