ramzi yousef trial transcript part3

936

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 ------------------------------x UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 v. S1293CR.180(KTD) 4 RAMZI AHMED YOUSEF, 5 ABDUL HAKIM MURAD, WALI KHAN AMIN SHAH, 6 Defendants. 7 ------------------------------x

8 June 19, 1996 10:00 a.m. 9 Before: 10 HON. KEVIN THOMAS DUFFY, 11 District Judge 12 APPEARANCES 13 MARY JO WHITE, 14 United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York 15 DIETRICH SNELL, MICHAEL GARCIA, 16 Assistant United States Attorney

17 ROY KULCSAR, Legal Advisor for Defendant Yousef 18 CLOVER BARRETT, 19 BERNARD UDELL, Attorney for defendant Murad 20 DAVID GREENFIELD, 21 Attorney for Defendant Shah

22 ALSO PRESENT: Lillie Grant, Paralegal, U.S. Attorney's Office 23 INTERPRETERS: AZIA ISMAIL, HASSAM MOAWAD,

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937

1 (In open court; jury not present)

2 THE COURT: All right, be seated, please. A

3 couple of things that need to be mentioned. One, I have the

4 passports turned over to me and as I suspected they're brand

5 new passports.

6 Anyway, the suggestion was made to me by someone

7 much smarter than I am, that I permit the participants and

8 the jury to have July 8th off, a Monday. The reasons for

9 this, according to the person making the suggestion, was

10 that this would give the jury a nice really long weekend in

11 the summer time. The way things are going I fear that they

12 may not have another long weekend and another period to go

13 to the beach. I allowed that made sense, and I went along

14 with it. So be apprised we will not be sitting July 8th.

15 The third thing of interest, we are missing one

16 guy on the jury which is just a pain. He never shows up and

17 we have to make special arrangements on a daily basis and so

18 on and so forth. I will give him another five minutes or so

19 to see if he shows, but if he doesn't show, then we'll just

20 go without one of the alternates, alternate number two.

21 I'll tell you if he doesn't show I'm just going to go ahead

22 without him. I am almost convinced that he has been working

23 at his night job and since he has been working at his night

24 job and trying to do the day job at the same time. The guy

25 I've caught him a couple of times dozing off. Now I must

938

1 admit some of the direction examinations I've seen can make

2 you sleepy. Does anybody else have any problems they care

3 about?

4 I'll give alternate number 2 another couple of

5 minutes and we'll get rolling.

6 (Recess).


8 THE COURT: He showed up. You want to get David.

9 Alternate number 2 showed up. I must say I discover more

10 and more things I didn't even know, soul food takeout place.

11 So the jury is having soul food today.

12 (Continued on next page)

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939 1 RAMON MARIANO, resumed, through the interpreter.

2 (Jury present)

3 THE COURT: Mr. Yousef.

4 CROSS-EXAMINATION

5 BY DEFENDANT YOUSEF:

6 Q. Good morning, sir.

7 A. Good morning as well.

8 Q. Sir, for how long have you been working as a

9 security guard?

10 A. For quite sometime, sir.

11 Q. How many years if you can tell us, sir?

12 A. I don't remember for how long. I've been a

13 security guard for quite sometime.

14 Q. Now, in connection with your job as a security

15 guard did you receive any specific training?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. Would you tell us, please, what type of training

18 you got?

19 A. I can not tell you that.

20 Q. I'm sorry?

21 A. I can't tell you that.

22 Q. Sir, what year did you start working as a

23 security guard?

24 A. I don't remember what year.

25 Q. And were you employed by any security service

940 1 agency?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could you repeat that for the

3 interpreter, please?

4 Q. Were you employed by any security service agency?

5 A. Yes, I am.

6 Q. Could you tell us, please?

7 A. I can not tell you that, sir.

8 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, could the Court

9 instruct the witness?

10 THE COURT: Mr. Mariano, isn't it true that

11 you're employed by Interisland Security Services, Inc?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

13 Q. Sir, by which agency did you receive the

14 training?

15 A. I don't remember what agency that was, sir.

16 Q. Sir, when you were interviewed by the FBI did

17 they ask you by whose service, by which security service you

18 were employed?

19 A. No, sir.

20 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, could I have the

21 witness be handed over what has been marked for

22 identification as Government Exhibit 3520A?

23 THE COURT: Sure. Mr. Interpreter, read the

24 second paragraph there to him, please.

25 (Interpreter read to the witness)

941 1 A. Where did this come from?

2 Q. Now, sir --

3 MR. KULCSAR: There was no question --

4 THE COURT: There was no question asked. There

5 was no question posed. He was given the document. Now ask

6 the question.

7 Q. Sir, having read the document did you tell the

8 FBI that you were employed by Interisland Security Service

9 Incorporated?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Would you tell us if this is a private agency or

12 a government agency?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Would you tell us, please?

15 THE COURT: Which one, private or government?

16 THE WITNESS: It's a private company.

17 Q. Would you tell us what kind of instruction you

18 received specifically for being a security guard?

19 A. Yes, I can.

20 Q. Would you, please?

21 A. I am instructed to do my guard duties, to do it

22 as quietly and as properly as possible.

23 Q. Sir, what kind of instruction did you receive in

24 in regard to the guard course?

25 A. Could you repeat that once again?

942 1 Q. What kind of instructions did you receive

2 regarding guard course?

3 A. What kind?

4 Q. Yes, sir.

5 A. Just what I told you, sir.

6 Q. Can you tell us more, please?

7 A. There is nothing else, sir. That's what I told

8 you.

9 Q. Sir, was it your testimony yesterday that on

10 January 6th of 1995, you were in the process of writing the

11 report during the events which took place on that night?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. And did that report pertain to the incident which

14 happened in that night?

15 A. Yes, about the evening of January 6th.

16 Q. And do you have this report with you?

17 A. No, sir.

18 Q. Do you know who has the report, sir?

19 A. We turned that over to the management of the

20 Josefa.

21 Q. When you were interviewed by the FBI did you show

22 them this report?

23 A. No, sir.

24 Q. Now, there was a time that you were told you were

25 going to the United States to testify in court. Am I

943 1 correct, sir?

2 A. Yes, sir, they told me.

3 Q. And did you bring with you any notes or any

4 documents which relates to the incident which you are going

5 to testify about?

6 A. Yes, sir, just my own personal papers.

7 Q. And you didn't bring that report did you?

8 A. No, sir, I didn't. These reports were for the

9 use of the Josefa, and myself.

10 Q. Sir, did you keep a copy for yourself of this

11 report?

12 A. No, sir, I turned it all over.

13 Q. And did you review that report before testifying

14 yesterday?

15 A. No, sir.

16 Q. When was the last time in which you saw this

17 report, sir?

18 A. When I was still performing my duties at the

19 Josefa.

20 Q. Now, sir, one of your duties as security guard in

21 the Josefa building was to write down the time of entering

22 and exiting of persons from the building, am I correct, sir?

23 A. That is correct, sir.

24 Q. And note keeping was one of the important

25 functions of your duty. Am I correct, sir?

944 1 A. That is correct, sir.

2 Q. Now, when a person goes into the building or

3 leaves the building you write a notation in the notebook; is

4 that correct, sir?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Do you look at your watch before writing the time

7 in or out for the person?

8 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.

9 Q. And were you instructed to be as accurate as

10 possible in writing the time down?

11 A. How do you mean that someone gave me

12 instructions?

13 Q. Sir, did you receive any instruction in working

14 as a security guard in the Josefa apartment?

15 A. It is part of my duty to do the log book.

16 Q. You were instructed how to write the log book, am

17 I correct, sir?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. And when you were -- withdrawn. And when you

20 were instructed to write the log book were you also

21 instructed to be accurate in writing the times of going in

22 and out?

23 THE INTERPRETER: He's trying to clarify what you

24 mean by how accurate.

25 Q. To be accurate in writing the time of the person

945 1 who is entering the building or exiting from the building.

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. And to be accurate in regard with everything that

4 you write in the log book, am I correct, sir?

5 A. I don't think that there is such thing as a

6 perfection, because, you know, I am only human.

7 Q. When I say accurate, sir, I mean as accurate as

8 you could.

9 A. As far as my definition of what accurate is that

10 is within the realms of what I did as accurate.

11 Q. Now, sir, am I correct that whoever was employed

12 as a security guard in the Josefa building, whether yourself

13 or anyone else, was responsible for keeping accurate records

14 for the people going in and out of the building?

15 A. What is allowable and is possible, that's what we

16 do.

17 Q. I'm sorry, would you repeat the answer, please?

18 (Record read)

19 Sir, when you write a specific time for a person

20 going in or out, for example, 3:45, you look at your watch

21 before writing this, am I correct, sir?

22 A. Naturally I look at my watch.

23 Q. And when you look at your watch you write down

24 the time in which you see your watch. You don't try to

25 write down anything else, am I correct, sir?

946 1 A. That is correct, sir.

2 Q. And am I also correct, sir, that a security guard

3 in the Josefa, whoever was there, whether yourself or anyone

4 else, was also responsible for keeping accurate records

5 pertaining to any packages going in or out of the building?

6 A. Sir, that all depends on how much we can do.

7 There is only one person working and if we log it in, then

8 it is there.

9 Q. Were you instructed as security guard in the

10 Josefa building to write notations about the packages going

11 in or out from the building, sir?

12 A. We didn't receive any specific instructions from

13 the management of the Josefa.

14 Q. If you see a person going into the building with

15 a large package would you write that in into the log book?

16 A. We would write down that a person has come in,

17 but we would not write down anything about that package.

18 Q. And does that also apply for the other security

19 guard? Is that the general rule in the building not to

20 write down the packages?

21 A. Perhaps some of them do it that way.

22 Q. Sir, if you don't record the fact that the person

23 walked in with a package with him you would recall later

24 that the person delivered the package to the building, am I

25 correct, sir?

947 1 THE INTERPRETER: Could you repeat that for the


3 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, I object to the question.

4 THE COURT: Yes, sustained.

5 Q. Sir, now, when you say you are not instructed by

6 the management to write down the packages -- withdrawn.

7 Sir, did you only write down in this log book

8 what you are instructed by the management to write?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. So what's in this log book is written according

11 to the instructions you received from the management, am I

12 correct, sir?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, I would like the

15 witness to be handed over the notebook of December 9. I

16 believe that's been marked, it's in evidence as Government

17 Exhibit 23.

18 Your Honor, can I show --

19 (Pause)

20 Q. Sir, would you tell us the name of the person who

21 was working on that shift from the page in front of you?

22 A. Which portion of this page?

23 Q. The end of the page where it shows the person's

24 name and the shift in which he started his work?

25 A. Liaga, R. A.

948 1 Q. Was it the other security guard who was working

2 at the Josefa building?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Would it be fair to say that he received the same

5 instructions as you received for security guard at the

6 Josefa building?

7 MR. SNELL: Objection.

8 THE COURT: Sustained.

9 Q. Sir, do you know if this person also received a

10 training course in being a security guard for the Josefa

11 building?

12 A. I don't know anything about what he had, sir.

13 Q. Sir, before working as a security guard in the

14 building, you would receive instructions from the

15 management, am I correct, sir?

16 A. For myself I received, yes.

17 Q. And that's the normal procedure of the management

18 to give instructions to the security guards before they

19 start working?


21 Q. If you know, sir.

22 THE COURT: He's not going to be able to answer

23 that. It may be an argument to raise another point. He's

24 not going to answer. Sustained. Let's go.

25 Q. Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to the

949 1 bottom of the page where it shows 603. Can you see that,

2 sir?

3 A. Are you talking about the top of the page?

4 Q. The bottom of the page where it shows room number

5 603.

6 A. Yes, there are, sir.

7 Q. Could you read this line, please?

8 A. This is someone else's handwriting and I can't

9 decipher the way he has written this.

10 Q. You can not read the line?

11 A. I don't understand his handwriting.

12 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, could I take a

13 look at the Government Exhibit, please?

14 THE COURT: Sure.

15 Q. Sir, directing your attention again to room

16 number 603 the last part of the page, sir, does it say that

17 a person named Mr. Nick went out of the room number 603 with

18 a small bag?

19 A. I don't know anything about this, sir. That was

20 not within the time of my duty.


22 Government Exhibit be passed to the jury, please?

23 THE COURT: Sure.

24 (Government Exhibit 22 passed to the jury)

25 (Pause)

950 1 Q. Sir, I'd like to direct your attention again to

2 the bottom where it shows room number 603 at the bottom of

3 the page.

4 Sir, did you write down in this log book in

5 English?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. You read, write and speak in English?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Can you hold this notebook in front of you by

10 yourself so that you can see the line which I'm pointing to,

11 sir.



14 Q. Would you hold this log book in front of you and

15 read the line by yourself?

16 A. I don't think so, sir. I can read my own

17 handwriting in this book, but the writings of other people I

18 can't.

19 Q. Sir, can you read the number 603?

20 A. In my handwriting I can read what is notated.

21 Q. Can you read the ones that is shown in front of

22 you in this log book?


24 interpreter?

25 Q. Can you read number 603 which is shown at the

951 1 bottom of this log book in front of you?

2 A. Yes, sir, in my own handwriting I can read it.

3 Q. Sir, the one which is in front of you, can you

4 read it or no?

5 A. As I have told you if it is my handwriting I can

6 read it. If it's not my handwriting I can not read it.

7 Q. Sir, do you remember yesterday being asked by

8 Mr. Snell on the direct examination about Government Exhibit

9 24B --

10 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, could the witness

11 be shown --

12 Sir, can you tell us the name of the person who

13 started the shift on this page as shown in the middle of the

14 page?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Can you read that, please?

17 A. Morales.

18 Q. And there is a line highlighted under that, am I

19 correct, sir?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And when you were asked on direct examination

22 yesterday you were able to read this line, am I correct,

23 sir?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. And this line is not written in your handwriting,

952 1 am I correct, sir?

2 A. Yes, sir, this is not my handwriting but the fact

3 that this handwriting is quite clear I am able to understand

4 it.

5 Q. So the line which you are asked by the government

6 to read they are clear?



9 Q. Sir, was it your testimony yesterday --

10 Sir, do you remember testifying yesterday that

11 you saw the person who you referred to as Mr. Haddad

12 everyday when you were on duty on the Josefa apartment

13 building?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. And that you always saw him clean shaven, am I

16 correct, sir?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. So would it be fair to say that during your

19 entire period of time in which you say Mr. Haddad was in the

20 building you never saw him with any facial hair?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Did you ever see him with a beard?

23 A. No, sir.

24 Q. Did you ever see him with a moustache?

25 A. No, sir.

953 1 Q. And the first time in which you saw him was on

2 December 8th, am I correct, sir?

3 A. I don't remember, sir.

4 Q. Sir, do you remember testifying yesterday that

5 the first time in which you saw the person you referred to

6 as Mr. Haddad was on December 8th of 1994?

7 A. Yes, now I remember that.

8 Q. Is it your testimony now that you never saw Mr.

9 Haddad with a moustache during the entire period of time in

10 which he stayed in the Josefa apartment building starting

11 from December 8th of 1994?

12 A. That's right, sir.

13 Q. Sir, I would like to direct your attention again

14 to Government Exhibit 23 to the page where it shows December

15 10th of 1994.

16 THE COURT: I'll tell you what, why don't you

17 give Mr. Yousef that book.

18 Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to take an early

19 break today. There is a reason for it, okay? You have to

20 order your lunch.


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954 1 (Jury not present; witness and interpreter not

2 present)

3 THE COURT: You guys think I'm fooling, I'm not.

4 Somehow we have to get the lunch orders in. We have to get

5 them in by 11:15, or else we won't have food for the jury.

6 MR. GREENFIELD: I thought you said lunch was

7 here already.

8 THE COURT: No.

9 (Recess)


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955 1 (In open court; jury present)

2 RAMON MARIANO, resumed, through the

3 interpreter.

4 CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued)


6 Q. Sir, I would like to direct your attention to

7 what has been received as Government Exhibit 24. Sir, could

8 you tell us the name of the person who had started the shift

9 on this page?

10 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, for the record could we

11 have a page reference?

12 THE COURT: Yes. You've got to give us a clue as

13 to what the page is.

14 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Page that shows December 10th

15 of 1994.

16 THE COURT: Okay.

17 Q. Could you tell us the name of the person who

18 started the shift on this page?

19 A. Which part of this?

20 Q. The first part at the top of the page.

21 A. What date is that?

22 Q. December 10, 1994.

23 A. Morales.

24 Q. Now, can you see at the bottom of the page where

25 it shows room number 603?

956 1 A. 603, yes.

2 Q. Sir, can you tell us what this line says?

3 A. I am not sure what is written in here. This is

4 not my handwriting.

5 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that the first word

6 there says Mr.?

7 A. I don't know if this word means Mr. This is not

8 my handwriting.

9 Q. Can you take a look at the second word and would

10 you agree that the second word is Naji?

11 A. I'm not sure, sir.

12 Q. Can you take a look at the third word and it says

13 Haddad?

14 A. I am not sure whether it says Haddad.

15 Q. Can you take a look and tell us what's the time

16 which is shown in the space for this line, please?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. Can you read that, please?

19 A. 2140, sir.

20 Q. That's the time in for the person whose name is

21 shown in this line, am I correct, sir?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, could I ask that

24 the exhibit be passed to the jury for the specific line?

25 THE COURT: Sure.

957 1 (Government Exhibit 24 passed to the jury)

2 (Pause)


4 Q. Sir, directing your attention again to the same

5 line, does it show when the person left the room?

6 A. He didn't.

7 Q. Sir, when a person is working on a shift and he

8 makes an entry for a visitor or a tenant of the building for

9 the time in and he don't make an entry for the time out, can

10 you explain what does that mean, please?



13 Q. Sir, would you turn to the next page, please.

14 Would you read the name of the person who started the shift

15 on the top of the page?

16 A. Liaga.

17 Q. What was the name of the person who started the

18 shift on the previous page?

19 A. Roy.

20 Q. Are those two different individuals working in

21 the Josefa building as security guards?

22 A. Only one.

23 Q. So who is the second person, sir?

24 A. That is working as a security guard?

25 Q. Who is the name of the person on the previous

958 1 page, does he work as a security guard, also?

2 A. Yes, they work with me as a security guard.

3 Q. So both of the individuals who their names appear

4 on these pages work as security guards in the Josefa

5 building, am I correct, sir?

6 A. Yes, that's correct, sir.

7 Q. And that's in addition to yourself, am I correct,

8 sir?

9 A. Could you repeat that?

10 Q. In addition to yourself there are two other

11 security guards who worked at the Josefa building during the

12 period of time of December, 1994, am I correct, sir?


14 Q. Sir, do you remember testifying yesterday that

15 there was only two security guards who were working on the

16 Josefa building?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So is it two persons who used to work as security

19 guards, or is it three now?

20 A. Yes. Regularly there would be three security

21 guards assigned for the three shifts, but if somebody had

22 gotten sick, or if there was something that was needed from

23 our office to perform other duties, then I don't know, maybe

24 in the course of time there would just be two of us. Some

25 nights there will just be one of us.

959 1 Q. So the number two which you gave yesterday is not

2 an accurate number, am I correct, sir?



5 Q. Sir, would you look at the page of December 10 of

6 Mr. Liaga. Do you see where it shows room number 603?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Could you read what's written in this line, sir?

9 A. I can try to read this. The writing is a little

10 bit clearer.

11 Q. Would you read it, please?

12 A. Yes, sir. (In English) Room 603, Mr. Nick Arab

13 National visit waited three, four hours. Out, 014 hour.

14 Q. Is there any mention in this line of Mr. Haddad

15 leaving room 603?

16 A. No, sir.

17 Q. Sir, the person whose name is shown here,

18 Mr. Nick, do you know who this person is?

19 A. I don't know that person.

20 Q. Sir, was it your testimony yesterday that there

21 was only one visitor to room 603 who you referred to as

22 Mr. Ahmed other than Mr. Haddad himself?


24 THE COURT: No, I'll permit it, go ahead.

25 A. I didn't say anything like that yesterday.

960 1 Q. Sir, directing your attention to the middle of

2 the page does it show a name of a person who started a new

3 shift?

4 A. In the middle of the page?

5 Q. Yes, sir.

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Would you tell us who this person is?

8 A. This is me.

9 Q. And would you tell us the date of this entry,

10 please?

11 A. December 11, 1994.

12 Q. And would you tell us the time in which you

13 started shift and you finish the shift on that day, please?

14 A. Yes, sir.


16 A. 7 a.m. to 3 p.m.

17 Q. Now, I would like to direct your attention to the

18 next page?

19 A. Should I turn this page?

20 Q. Yes, please, sir. Sir, do you see where it says

21 603?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would you read the line for us, please?

24 A. Yes, sir. (In English) Room 603, Mr. Naji Haddad

25 out, 1 p.m.

961 1 Q. And was that on December 11th of 1994?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Is that 1 p.m. is 1 in the afternoon of December,

4 1994?


6 Q. Now, would you tell us when was the previous

7 entry of Mr. Haddad of entering room 603?


9 interpreter?

10 Q. Would you show us, please, when Mr. Haddad

11 entered the room 603 before he exited on December 11, 1994

12 at 1 p.m?

13 A. In my particular shift there is no entry for the

14 coming of Mr. Haddad. I don't know about the other security

15 that was working.

16 Q. So when you started your shift on 7 o'clock in

17 the morning would it be fair to say that Mr. Haddad was in

18 the building?


20 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained.

21 Q. Sir, is there an entry showing Mr. Haddad

22 entering the room 603 on 7 a.m. when you started your shift

23 until 1 p.m. when it shows he left the building?

24 A. No, sir.

25 Q. So according to the log book, Mr. Haddad was in

962 1 the building when you started your shift?



4 Q. Sir, I would like to direct your attention to the

5 page of December 12th of 1994.

6 THE WITNESS: May I touch this document?

7 Q. Sure. Sir, do you see an entry where it shows

8 your name on December 12th of 1994?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. And what time did you start your shift on that

11 day?

12 A. (In English) 7 a.m. to 3 p.m.

13 Q. Sir, I'm sorry. I want to direct your attention

14 to the page where it shows December 17 of 1994.

15 A. May I touch this document?

16 Q. Sure, sir.

17 A. Did you say December 17th?

18 Q. Yes, sir. Would you tell us what time you

19 started your shift on December 17, 1994?

20 A. Yes, sir.


22 A. 3 p.m. to 11 p.m.

23 Q. So that's 3 p.m. on December 17th until 11 p.m.

24 of December 17, 1994, am I correct, sir?


963 1 Q. Now, I would like to direct your attention to the

2 next page. Do you see where it shows room number 603?

3 A. Where in this page?

4 Q. I'm sorry, sir?

5 A. Where in this page?

6 Q. At the top of the page.

7 A. This page?

8 Q. Yes, at the top of the page. Do you see where it

9 shows room 603?

10 A. There is one 603.

11 Q. Would you read this line for us, please?

12 A. Yes, sir. Room 603 Mr. Haddad in 3:30 p.m. 10:30

13 p.m.

14 Q. That's 10:30 p.m. of December 17, 1994, am I

15 correct, sir?


17 Q. Does it show when Mr. Haddad exited the building?

18 A. No, sir.

19 Q. Sir, would you tell us what the next time after

20 Mr. Haddad went into the building at 10:30 p.m. where when

21 was the next time when he left the building?


23 THE COURT: No, sustained.

24 Q. Sir, would you tell us the name of the person who

25 started a new shift in the middle of the page?

964 1 A. Yes, sir, Morales.

2 Q. And what was the date which he started the shift?

3 A. You're talking about the date?

4 Q. Yes, sir.

5 A. The same, December 17, 1994.

6 Q. And what time did he start the shift?

7 A. 11 in the evening until 7 in the morning.

8 Q. Now, will you turn to the next page, please.

9 A. May I touch the document, sir?

10 Q. Sure. Will you tell us the name of the person

11 who started the shift on the top of the page, sir?

12 A. Liaga, sir.

13 Q. What is the date? Tell me the date, please?

14 A. December 18, 1994.

15 Q. Now, do you see where it shows room number 603 at

16 the bottom of the page?

17 A. Yes, there is, sir.


19 A. I am not sure of what is written here since this

20 is not my handwriting.

21 Q. Sir, can you tell us anything that you can read

22 from this line?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would you tell us, please, sir?

25 A. Naji Haddad out 2130.

965 1 Q. And that's December 18 of 1994, am I correct,

2 sir?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Now, according to this log book from the previous

5 page of December 17, 1994, 10:30 p.m. when Mr. Haddad exited

6 the room, is there any other entry showing that he left the

7 room between 10 December, 1994 --


9 THE COURT: The question is, is there an entry

10 that shows that? The answer is yes or no.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could you repeat the question

12 for the interpreter?

13 Q. Now, from the previous page where it shows Mr.

14 Haddad entered the building during your shift when you were

15 working there at 10:30 p.m., is there any other entry that

16 showed Mr. Haddad exited, left the building before 2150 p.m.

17 of December 18, 1994?

18 A. I don't know, sir.

19 Q. Sir, do you see anywhere, from where it says 603,

20 Mr. Haddad entered the building 10 p.m. on December 17th of

21 1994, do you see any other indication of room number 603

22 between that time and 2150 p.m. of December 18, 1994?


24 Q. Sir, I would like to direct your attention to the

25 page where it shows December 19, '94.

966 1 A. May I touch the document?

2 Q. Sure, sir. Sir, will you tell us the name of the

3 person that's shown on the top of the page who started the

4 shift on that day?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Would you read that for us, please?

7 A. This is me, sir.

8 Q. Would you tell us what time your shift was on

9 December 19, '94?

10 A. 7 a.m. to 11 p.m.

11 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to direct your attention to

12 the next page. Do you see in the middle of the page where

13 it shows room number 603?

14 A. Yes, sir.


16 A. Which one of these, sir?

17 Q. Would you read both of them, please.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could you repeat?

19 THE COURT: Read both.

20 A. Room 603 Mr. Haddad, room 603, Mr. Haddad in 5:03

21 p.m. Out 5:45 p.m.

22 Q. Would you read the next line, please, where it

23 shows room number 603?

24 A. Room 603 Mr. Haddad in 6:05 p.m. Out, 7:30 p.m.

25 (6:05)

967 1 Q. Now, sir, I would like to direct your attention

2 to the page where it shows December 27th of 1994?

3 A. May I touch the document?

4 THE COURT: Yes, sure, go ahead.

5 A. Did you say the 27th?

6 Q. Yes, sir.

7 Would you tell us the name of the person who

8 started the shift as shown in this page?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Would you tell us the time in which the shift

11 started and the name of the person?

12 A. This is me, sir. 7 p.m. to 7 a.m.

13 Q. Now, sir, do you see where it shows room number

14 603?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Would you read the sentence for us, please the

17 entry for us, please, sir?

18 A. Yes, sir. Room 603 out 9:10 p.m.

19 Q. Would you read the next entry where it shows room

20 number 603, sir?

21 A. Yes, sir. Room 603 Mr. Haddad with 1 co out 9:40

22 p.m.

23 Q. I'm sorry, sir, would you repeat this line,

24 please?

25 A. Room 603 Mr. Haddad with 1 co out 9:40 p.m.

968 1 Q. And would you read the next entry of room number

2 603 on the same page, sir?

3 A. Yes, sir. Room 603 Mr. Haddad with 1 co in 2

4 a.m.

5 Q. And what's the date where it shows Mr. Haddad was

6 in 2 a.m.

7 A. December, that is December 27 in the early

8 morning hours.

9 Q. Sir, did you start your shift on December 27?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. And did you start your shift on the evening of

12 December 27?

13 A. Correct, sir.

14 Q. And was your shift from the evening of December

15 27 until the morning of December 28?

16 A. Could you repeat that for me, please?

17 Q. Would you tell us what was the time in which you

18 started your shift and ended your shift as is shown in the

19 issue of this page?

20 A. I started from 7 in the evening until 7 in the

21 morning.

22 Q. And what was the date of 7 in the evening of that

23 day?

24 A. December 27, 1994.

25 Q. And what was the date in which you finished your

969 1 shift at 7 a.m.

2 A. Yes, that would have been the 28th of December in

3 the early morning.

4 Q. Now, sir, would you again read the last entry of

5 603 as shown on this page?

6 A. Yes, sir. Room 603 Mr. Haddad with 1 co in 2

7 a.m.

8 Q. What was the date of the morning on which Mr.

9 Haddad entered his room?

10 A. Yes, sir. My duty was designated as 7 in the

11 evening of the 27th until in the morning of the 28th. When

12 I wrote this down I considered this as being a shift that

13 was covered by the date the 27th the shift that I was

14 working for that particular day.

15 Q. Sir, the 2 a.m. where it shows Mr. Haddad entered

16 to his room, what date was that?

17 A. Yes, that would be December 28 early morning, but

18 that is covered within the shift that I worked.

19 Q. Now, sir, will you turn to the next page, please.

20 Do you see an entry where it shows room number 603 on this

21 page?

22 A. This page? Could you repeat it?

23 Q. Do you see an entry of room number 603 on this

24 page?

25 A. What date are you talking about? Can you explain

970 1 that to me?

2 Q. That's December 18, 1994, sir.

3 I'm sorry, sir, that's December 28, 1994.

4 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, I think the witness was

5 trying to make an answer to the last question. Can we have

6 that, please?

7 THE COURT: He said something.

8 A. Yes. I don't know what you are referring to,

9 sir. We are here on a page that says December 27, and the

10 following page says December 28. I am confused.

11 Q. I apologize, sir, that's December 28 of 1994.

12 Sir, do you see any mention in this page to room number 603?

13 A. I don't know if there are any entries here for

14 that particular room that you're talking about. This

15 handwriting is not quite easy to decipher for me.

16 Q. Can you read the numbers of the rooms that are on

17 this page?

18 A. Some of them, not all of them. These are not my

19 handwriting, sir.

20 Q. Do you see the number 603 on this page anywhere?

21 A. I can not distinctly tell you because, you know,

22 the handwriting here is quite confusing. There may be a

23 603.

24 Q. Sir, I want to direct your attention to the next

25 page?

971 1 A. May I ask permission to turn it?

2 THE COURT: Sure.

3 Q. Would you tell us the name of the person who

4 started the shift?

5 A. This is me, sir.

6 Q. Would you tell us the date to which you started

7 the shift?

8 A. December 8, 1994.

9 Q. December 8, 1994 --

10 A. December 28, 1994.

11 Q. Can you tell us the time of the shift on that

12 date?

13 A. 7 p.m. to 7 a.m.

14 Q. Now, do you see an entry to room number 603 on

15 this page?

16 A. Yes, sir, there is.

17 Q. Would you read that, please?

18 A. Yes, sir. Room 603 Mr. Haddad with 1 co in 9:40

19 p.m., out 1 a.m.

20 Q. Sir, where it shows 9:40 would you take a look at

21 the top of the page. Would you read that for us, please?

22 A. Which one?

23 Q. At the top of the page the section which shows

24 9:40 p.m.

25 A. Yes, sir. (In English) 9:30 p.m.

972 1 Q. Sir, the very first line in the page on the

2 section that shows 9:40 p.m. The very first line from the

3 page on the same section. Would you read that, please?

4 A. I'm confused, sir. The top of the page, the

5 line?

6 Q. Yes, sir.

7 A. I don't understand what you're referring to.

8 Q. Sir, do you see where your name is written on the

9 top of the page?

10 A. Yes, I see that, sir.

11 Q. Above your name do you see where it says room

12 number?

13 A. Yes, there is that.

14 Q. What's written at the end of this line where it

15 says room number?

16 A. Which of the writings are you referring to?

17 Q. Can you read what's written on the line where it

18 shows room number, can you show us what's written, if

19 anything, else?

20 A. Major Aquino was written on top. On the next

21 line TNN127 Amson Taxi.

22 Q. Sir, would you direct your attention to the same

23 line where it says room number, and look at the far end of

24 that line?

25 THE COURT: These two words.

973 1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Would you read it, please?

3 A. Out in.

4 Q. The first entry is out, am I correct, sir?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Now, would you tell us what's the entry under

7 this section for room number 603?

8 A. Are you talking about the first entry?

9 Q. Yes, as to room number 603?

10 A. 1 a.m.

11 Q. Is that in or out?

12 A. That is probably the in portion of it. I

13 probably did make a mistake on identifying in and out. Just

14 on this particular line I had probably reversed it.

15 Q. So would you tell us what the correct time of in

16 and out of Mr. Haddad on this line?

17 A. Yes, sir. Room 603 Mr. Haddad with 1 co in 9:40

18 p.m., out 9:40 a.m., in 9:40 a.m. out 1 a.m.

19 Q. Did you record this mistake right now when

20 whether it's in?

21 A. Yes, sir. It is only now that I realize that I

22 probably did make a mistake. It's only now that I see this

23 when you read it to me that I had probably reversed the

24 heading of the in and the out.

25 Q. Now, when you say you probably reversed them,

974 1 does it also mean that you probably wrote them right?

2 A. The times are correct. It's just the in and the

3 out heading are wrong.

4 Q. Now, sir, when you said the in and out were

5 probably wrong, does it also mean that they were probably

6 right?



9 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, could I have

10 the --

11 THE COURT: Tell me, Mr. Mariano, when you put in

12 somebody with 1 co, does that mean one companion?

13 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, sir?

14 THE COURT: When you put in the notation someone

15 with 1 co, does that mean one companion?


17 THE COURT: There is only one guard on duty at

18 any time; is that correct?

19 THE WITNESS: That is correct, sir.

20 THE COURT: And your duties involve other things

21 than just sitting outside checking on people, right?


23 THE COURT: You have you have to go and do what's

24 called roving?


975 1 THE COURT: You go from floor to floor checking

2 on the building; is that correct?


4 THE COURT: Do you lock the doors so the people

5 can't get in and out while you go roving?

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, the fire exits.

7 THE COURT: The fire exits you do. But the front

8 door, is that left open?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, in the night time the

10 doors are locked and in the daytime the doors are left

11 unlocked, so that they could just pull and pull out.

12 THE COURT: During the daytime, also, I assume,

13 how long are your shifts? I thought I heard one was 12

14 hours; is that correct?

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, particularly we normally

16 work an eight hour shift, but there are times that it occurs

17 that there are some problems with staffing, and other

18 problems that I will have to work a 12 hour shift or a

19 straight shift.

20 THE COURT: You wear a uniform for this?


22 THE COURT: It gets warm?

23 THE WITNESS: Get warm what, sir?

24 THE COURT: Are you warm ever while you're

25 working?

976 1 THE WITNESS: Not really, sir.

2 THE COURT: You never work up a sweat?

3 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, that happens sometimes,

4 especially when the temperature is warm.

5 THE COURT: And your other normal bodily

6 functions just work the same way everyday?


8 THE COURT: You lock the door when you take care

9 of those things? The front door.

10 THE WITNESS: Yes, when we do our roving in the

11 evening, sir, we do.

12 THE COURT: But during the daytime do you lock

13 the door?

14 THE WITNESS: No, sir. They are not in the

15 morning.

16 THE COURT: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll

17 take our lunch break.


19

20

21

22

23

24

25


2 present)

3 THE COURT: Mr. Yousef, since you're acting pro

4 se I've given you tremendous leeway. I have absolutely no

5 clue as to where you are going with that cross-examination;

6 none whatsoever. What you think it proves is beyond me.

7 Your opening statement has you out of Manilla,

8 not in Manilla at all during any of this time. You almost

9 argued with him whether or not you were wearing a moustache

10 at the time. And then you wanted to talk about this whether

11 it was evening or morning or what day it was, and so on.

12 What does those prove, that the guy isn't a rocket

13 scientist? So what?

14 I have no clue as to where you are going, but

15 hopefully over the lunch hour you will get some focus on

16 where you're going, because if you go no place I'm just

17 going to end it. 2 o'clock.

18 (Luncheon recess)


20

21

22

23

24

25

980 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N

2 2:00 p.m.

3 (Pages 978-979 sealed)

4 (In open court; jury present)

5 RAMON MARIANO, resumed, through the interpreter

6 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Yousef.

7 CROSS-EXAMINATION (continued)


9 Q. Sir, I direct your attention to the January of

10 1995 log book. Will you turn to the page of January 6th of

11 1995, sir.

12 A. May I touch it?

13 THE COURT: Sure, pick it up.

14 Q. Sir, will you tell us what the person was working

15 on January 6, 1995 at the shift from 7 p.m.

16 A. That is me, sir.

17 Q. And your shift started at 7 p.m. on January 6,

18 1995?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Now, sir, did you see the entry where it shows

21 room number 603?

22 A. Yes, sir.


24 A. Yes, sir. (In English) Room 603 Mr. Naji with 1

25 co in 7:45 p.m., out 10:35 p.m.

981 1 Q. So how many persons left the apartment at 10:35

2 p.m?

3 A. Two, sir.

4 Q. Who were those two persons if you know, sir?

5 A. (In English ) Mr. Naji and 1 co.

6 Q. Is that Mr. Naji and one companion?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Now, would you turn to the next page, please. Do

9 you see where it says note room 603?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Would you read this note for us, please?

12 A. Yes, sir. Note. Room 603 at around 10:45 p.m. so

13 many smoke at this room, proceed room 603. There is

14 according to the tenant there is firecracker and loose

15 connection.

16 Q. Now, sir, am I correct that according to this

17 note that you noticed the smoke at 10:45 p.m?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, sir, was it your testimony yesterday that on

20 January 6, 1995, at around 10:45 p.m. you saw the person

21 referred to as Mr. Haddad and the person referred to as

22 Ahmed running out of the building with their shoes in their

23 hand?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But, sir, according to this log book Mr. Haddad

982 1 and another companion had left the apartment at 10:35 p.m.,

2 am I correct, sir?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. So am I correct, sir, that they had left the

5 apartment even before you noticed any smoke there?

6 A. Yes, they probably left, but they had returned to

7 their room.

8 Q. Now, sir, is there an indication in this log book

9 after Mr. Haddad has left at 10:35 p.m. that he went back to

10 his room?

11 A. No, sir. When I made the notation for the room

12 after I had investigated and looked around and I had been

13 informed of what was happening.

14 Q. Sir, is there any indication that Mr. Haddad went

15 back after 10:35 p.m?

16 A. No, sir.

17 Q. Sir, was it your testimony yesterday that after

18 Mr., the person referred to as Mr. Haddad and his friend

19 when they left the building running out with their shoes in

20 their hand they came back after few minutes? Was that your

21 testimony yesterday?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. And was it your testimony yesterday also that

24 there was a time after seeing the smoke you went upstairs to

25 the area where you could see room 603?

983 1 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.

2 Q. And that you saw the person referred to as Mr.

3 Haddad and his friend walking into the room and talking and

4 keeping the door open in order for the smoke to go out?


6 Q. Was it your testimony yesterday that after you

7 saw them walking and talking you approached them and asked

8 them to let you into the apartment and they refused?

9 A. That is right.

10 Q. Now, do you remember what time was that, sir?

11 A. I can not remember what time that was.

12 Q. Was that after you noticed the smoke?

13 A. Yes, that was afterwards.

14 Q. And am I correct that you noticed the smoke at

15 around 10:45 p.m?

16 A. Yes, I noticed the smoke.

17 Q. So am I correct that you went back to the

18 apartment when you tried to talk to them, that it was

19 sometime after 10:45 p.m?

20 A. That is possible, sir.

21 Q. Now, is there any indication in this notebook

22 that Mr. Haddad or anyone else was present in the apartment

23 after 10:45 p.m?

24 A. Yes. It may not be fully indicated here but what

25 I can tell you, sir, is around that time there was a lot of

984 1 confusion and a lot of smoke there. That all I paying

2 attention to is what I needed to do in my guarding work.

3 Q. Sir, it's not indicated anywhere in this notebook

4 that Mr. Haddad or his friend went back after 10:45 p.m. a

5 p.m., am I correct, sir?

6 A. That is correct, sir, but all I can tell you is

7 probably in the confusion and in the shuffle of things I was

8 not able to take note of the entry, but what I can tell you

9 is I was busy at that time thinking of whether I should call

10 the police or call the firemen.

11 Q. But, sir, there was still entries made after

12 10:45 p.m., am I correct, sir?

13 A. Yes, there are some.

14 Q. But none of these entries indicate that Mr.

15 Haddad went back to the building?

16 A. Yes, I can tell you, sir, that I did not write it

17 down probably in the course of my confusion and my concern

18 for the fire, but I know that they came back in.

19 Q. So you wrote the other entries after 10:45. This

20 is the only entry which you did not write?


22 THE COURT: No, I'll permit it. Go ahead.

23 A. Most probably that's possible.

24 Q. Now, sir, when you said you saw smoke at around

25 10:45 p.m. did you see the smoke by yourself or you were

985 1 notified by someone else?

2 A. In my own eyes I saw the smoke was coming out of

3 your window.

4 Q. So the answer is that you were not notified by

5 anyone else?

6 A. No, sir.

7 Q. Now, sir, was it your testimony yesterday on

8 direct that after you saw the smoke there was a time in

9 which you went upstairs so that you could see room number

10 603?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Now, sir, did you make a decision of going

13 upstairs and investigating about room 603, did you make the

14 decision by yourself or you were asked by someone else to go

15 and investigate?

16 A. I investigated on my own.

17 Q. So you were not instructed by anyone else to go

18 there and investigate, am I correct, sir?

19 A. No, sir.

20 Q. Now, sir, was it your testimony yesterday that

21 there was a time in which you entered room number 603 and

22 you noticed a smoke around the sink area, and noticed also

23 salt there, am I correct, sir?

24 A. Yes, that is correct, sir.

25 Q. And what time was that, sir?

986 1 A. I don't remember what time that was, sir.

2 Q. Was that after you noticed the smoke at 10:45

3 p.m?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. And was it your testimony that when you went

6 there for the first time the person who you referred to as

7 Mr. Haddad was in the apartment?

8 A. Yes, you were there.

9 Q. And there is no indication in the log book in

10 front of you that Mr. Haddad was in the apartment after

11 10:45, am I correct, sir?

12 A. No, sir, there is. All I can tell you is I was

13 confused, I was busy and there was a lot of thing happening

14 at that time that I may not have entered it.

15 Q. Sir, will you describe for us what you saw when

16 you entered the apartment regarding the damage? Was there

17 or a fire or anything else?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Will you describe for us, please?

20 A. Yes, sir. When I entered the room there was a

21 little bit of smoke and I saw the sink area that it had some

22 burn marks and there was salt around the sink area as well.

23 Q. Where were you standing when you saw the sink

24 area, sir?

25 A. Right in front of the sink.

987 1 Q. And what else did you see in the apartment other

2 than the smoke which you say you saw around the sink area?

3 A. For that particular time that was what I had

4 focused on.

5 Q. So all what you saw for the first time was the

6 sink; am I correct, sir?


8 Q. Now, sir, was it your testimony also yesterday

9 that there was a time which you called the fire department?


11 Q. And that there was a time in which the firemen

12 arrived at the building?


14 Q. And was it your testimony yesterday that when the

15 firemen arrived the person who you referred to as Mr. Haddad

16 was walking outside of the parking area of the Josefa

17 apartment building and using his cellular phone?


19 Q. And during that period of time you were standing

20 at your post near the entrance to the building, am I

21 correct, sir?

22 A. Yes, I was standing there and after I had focused

23 my attention on you, then I had focused my attention on the

24 firemen that were arriving.

25 Q. Now, sir, am I correct that the parking area in

988 1 which you said you saw the person Mr. Haddad you referred to

2 was walking and using the cellular phone, is that parking

3 area located outside the Josefa building?

4 A. Yes, it is outside.

5 Q. So am I correct, sir, that in order for a person

6 who is inside the building to get outside to the parking

7 area he needs to exit from the building?


9 Q. Now, when the firemen arrived the person referred

10 to as Mr. Haddad was already out of the building and was in

11 the parking area?


13 Q. Now, is there any entry in this log book to show

14 that the person referred to as Mr. Haddad had exited the

15 building at that time?

16 A. No, sir, there is no entry. I was busy with the

17 goings on in this building going up and down and paying

18 attention to the important things that I needed to pay

19 attention to.

20 Q. So basically there is no entry, am I correct,

21 sir?

22 A. Yes, sir, you are right, that is the truth, there

23 is no entry.

24 Q. Now, sir is there an entry to show that the

25 firemen entered the building?

989 1 A. Yes, there is.

2 Q. Would you read that entry for us, please?

3 A. Yes, sir. 11:50 p.m. Paco fire station.

4 Q. So according to this entry the firemen had

5 arrived at 11:50 p.m., am I correct, sir?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Now, on the same line where it shows the firemen

8 entered the building is there an indication in this log book

9 to show which room they were sent or they were supposed to

10 go in?

11 A. No, sir, it is not indicated in the entry, but

12 the firemen were with me and I knew where I needed to go.

13 Q. Now, sir, is there an indication that they had

14 left the room?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Would you point it out, please?

17 A. They left at 12:05 early in the morning.

18 Q. And where does it show that, sir?

19 A. Directly in that entry. I'm sorry, sir, I made a

20 mistake. No, there's no indication of out.

21 Q. So there is no indication to which room they went

22 in, am I correct?

23 A. No, sir, I wasn't mobilized then.

24 Q. And there is no indication as to what time they

25 left the building?

990 1 A. No, sir.

2 Q. Now, sir, by the way, when they entered the

3 building was it your testimony yesterday that you entered

4 with them to room number 603?


6 Q. And in this second time did you see anything else

7 other than the sink area?

8 A. No, sir, I didn't see anything, but Mr. Ahmed

9 pointed to the sink area.

10 Q. Now, sir, is there an indication in this log book

11 of any person being in room number 603 at that time when the

12 firemen arrived?

13 A. No, sir, there is no indication, but what I can

14 tell you is I was the person who was there and I knew

15 exactly what had happened.

16 Q. But there is no indication in this log book, am I

17 correct, sir?

18 A. No, sir.

19 Q. Now, sir, by the way, did anything else happen

20 during that night other than what you say you saw smoke in

21 room number 603?



24 Q. Sir, did you notice anything in room number 603

25 other than the smoke?

991 1 A. Yes, toward the end of the incident, yes, I

2 noticed a lot of things.

3 Q. Sir, did you hear of any explosion taking place

4 in room number 603?

5 A. No, sir, I didn't hear anything.


7 the firemen left the building there was a time when the

8 police officer arrived and his name was Mr. Fernandez, am I

9 correct, sir?


11 Q. Now, sir, is there an entry in this log book to

12 show that a police officer entered the building at that

13 time?

14 A. No, sir, there isn't.


16 after the police officer had arrived in the building you

17 entered with the police officer in room number 603?


19 Q. And, again, in this third time you didn't notice

20 anything other than the sink area. Am I correct, sir?

21 A. Yes, that area, sir.

22 Q. Now, sir, was it your testimony that after the

23 police officer inspected the apartment there was a time in

24 which he left the building?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could you repeat for the

992 1 interpreter?

2 Q. Am I correct that after the police officer

3 inspected the apartment room number 603 there was a time in

4 which he left the building?


6 Q. Now, sir, is there any indication in the log book

7 to show that a police officer left the building at that

8 time?

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. Now, sir, was it your testimony yesterday also

11 that there was a time in which a captain and a lieutenant

12 arrived at the Josefa apartment with Mr. Fernandez?

13 A. That is correct,

14 Q. Now, do you remember on what time was that, sir?

15 A. I don't remember any more what time that was.

16 Q. Now, sir, is there any indication in this log

17 book to show that a captain and a lieutenant with

18 Mr. Fernandez arrived at the Josefa apartment in this time

19 at that evening, sir?

20 A. No, sir, it is not in the log book.


22 the lieutenant and the captain entered the building then

23 they entered room number 603?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. And that there was a time in which you entered

993 1 with them into room 603?


3 Q. Now, am I correct, sir, that this time in which

4 you entered with the captain, the lieutenant in room number

5 603 that was the fourth time in which you are entering the

6 building?

7 A. It is the third time.

8 Q. Sir, was the first time which you said was when

9 you entered when you went to see the smoke, and insisted on

10 the person you referred to as Mr. Haddad and his friend to

11 enter the building?

12 A. Could you repeat that, please?

13 Q. Was it your testimony yesterday that when you

14 went to the sixth floor for the first time and you noticed

15 the smoke and you saw the person referred to as Mr. Haddad

16 and his friend walking and talking in room number 603 you

17 asked them to go and see what's inside there?

18 A. Yes, I asked their permission but they did not

19 let me enter at that time, sir.

20 Q. Now, when you asked their permission and they did

21 not allow you to enter you went to the downstairs, am I

22 correct, sir?


24 Q. Now, was it your testimony also yesterday that

25 then you went there and insisted on them allowing you to go

994 1 there --


3 THE COURT: Yes, sustained. Next question.

4 Q. Sir, when was the first time which you entered

5 room number 603?

6 A. The second time that I approached them to ask

7 permission to go inside I was able to get in.

8 Q. So that was the first time in which you went into

9 room number 603, am I correct, sir?

10 A. Yes, that was the first time.

11 Q. And this is the time in which you notice the

12 smoke around the sink area, am I correct, sir?


14 Q. And there is a second time you entered there with

15 the firemen, am I correct, sir?


17 Q. And the third time you entered there with

18 Mr. Fernandez, am I correct, sir?


20 Q. So when you entered the lieutenant, the captain

21 and Mr. Fernandez that was the fourth time, am I correct,

22 sir?


24 Q. Now, sir, will you describe for us what you saw

25 in the apartment at the fourth time?

995 1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Would you please, sir.

3 A. Yes, sir. At this time I saw a large stainless

4 steel pot. There were also some juices that were contained

5 in some bottles. There was a laptop computer. There were

6 cartons that I believe contained some cotton, and other

7 boxes as well that contained some other things. There was

8 also some bag, a bag that contained some wiring and they

9 were scattered in different places.

10 Q. Sir, where did you see the cartons which you say

11 contain cotton?

12 A. Inside the room 603.

13 Q. Which part of room number 603 you saw them, sir?

14 A. I believe it is in by the two rooms.

15 Q. Sir, do you recall being interviewed by the FBI

16 on February of 1995?

17 A. I don't remember that any more. That's quite

18 sometime ago.

19 Q. Do you remember being interviewed by the FBI

20 after the incident?

21 A. Yes, there were some people that spoke to me.

22 Q. Do you recall what their names were, sir?

23 A. I don't remember, sir.

24 Q. Sir, was this interview after the incident?

25 A. After the incident.

996 1 Q. How long after the incident, sir?

2 A. I don't remember how much time had elapsed since

3 the incident.

4 Q. Sir, was it your testimony yesterday that the

5 person who you referred to as the friend of Mr. Haddad you

6 only knew his name on the day of the incident?


8 Q. And you remembered his name yesterday, am I

9 correct, sir?


11 Q. Now, you went to the FBI after the incident, am I

12 correct, sir?

13 A. Yes, you are correct in stating that I went and

14 saw with them, but I could not remember the date of this.

15 It has been quite sometime.

16 Q. And don't you remember that their names, am I

17 correct, sir?


19 Q. But you remembered the name of the person who was

20 a friend of Mr. Haddad even though you learned his name

21 prior to meeting with the FBI?

22 A. Yes, sir. I know that I would not forget the

23 name of your friend because I would not forget that incident

24 for the rest of my life.

25 Q. How many times did you used to meet with the FBI

997 1 in your life, sir?

2 A. One time at the Josefa, sir, and one time at the

3 United States Embassy.

4 Q. Now, sir, are you correct that when you went to

5 see them at the Josefa that was the first time in your life?


7 Q. And that was after the incident?


9 Q. And yet you don't remember their names?

10 A. That is correct, sir. I did not focus on

11 remembering their name. I focused on telling them of the

12 incident that happened that I would not forget for the rest

13 of my life.

14 Q. And would you forget for the rest of your life

15 that you met the FBI agents for the first time in your life

16 in the Josefa building?



19 Q. Sir, I would like to turn your attention to what

20 has been marked as Government Exhibit for identification

21 3520A.

22 Sir, would you turn to the third page.

23 THE INTERPRETER: May I handle this document?

24 THE COURT: Sure.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Third page, you said?

998 1 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Yes, sir.

2 The third paragraph.

3 THE INTERPRETER: The third of all the new

4 paragraphs?

5 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: The second of new paragraphs.


7 Q. Now, sir, according to the document in front of

8 you did you tell the FBI in February of 1995, that you saw a

9 large amount of cotton spread out in the kitchen table?


11 THE COURT: No, go ahead, answer it.

12 A. Sir, I told them that I saw some cotton. I did

13 not tell them that it was spread on the table. I said that

14 it was in cartons, the cashews that are mentioned there I

15 did see.

16 Q. Now, sir, when you were interviewed by the FBI

17 you were telling them about the events which took place on

18 June -- on January 6th of 1995; is that correct, sir?


20 Q. Sir, when you were interviewed by the FBI you

21 were telling them about the events which took place in

22 January 6th of 1995, am I correct, sir?

23 A. That's correct, sir.

24 Q. And you told them what you saw in room number

25 603, am I correct, sir?

999 1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. And you told them whatever you remembered to the

3 best of your recollection, am I correct, sir?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. And you were being truthful?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. So after the FBI agents prepared a report based

8 on what you told them that day and the report does not

9 indicate anything about cottons in boxes, that would be

10 inaccurate, am I correct, sir?


12 THE COURT: No, go ahead.

13 A. The contents in here some of it are correct, some

14 are incorrect.

15 Q. Sir, was it your testimony also that you saw a

16 laptop computer?

17 A. Yes, that is right.

18 Q. Where did you see that computer, sir?

19 A. In the living room area in a small table.

20 Q. And is that the kitchen area, sir?

21 A. Yes, sir, this is the living room, and in this

22 portion you will see the kitchen.

23 Q. Sir, is that table in the kitchen area?

24 A. That area is a one-bedroom area. You would see

25 the table in that part of the kitchen and the living room.

1000 1 Q. So the table was in the kitchen area, am I

2 correct, sir?



5 Q. Sir, how many parts is room number 603 divided

6 into?

7 A. 603 is one bedroom.

8 Q. And how many areas is the bedroom divided into?

9 A. There is a divider that divides it.

10 Q. How many sections are there in room number 603?

11 A. There is a section of a bedroom and there is a

12 section of a living room that has also a kitchen.

13 Q. So the table was in the living room, am I

14 correct, sir?

15 A. That table works for the living room and the

16 kitchen as well.

17 Q. And the computer was on the table which was in

18 the living area, am I correct, sir?

19 A. Yes, that's where I saw it.

20 Q. So you only saw the computer on the fourth time

21 in which you entered room number 603 on that evening?

22 A. Yes, that is correct, sir, I saw it.

23 Q. And you didn't see it for the first three times

24 in which you entered that room?

25 A. It is possible that I didn't see it at that time

1001 1 because it is a smaller object. I had probably had a

2 tendency to see the bigger objects.

3 Q. Sir, would you describe the size of the living

4 area?

5 A. Yes, sir. I can not tell you exactly how large

6 it is. I know that it is enough for one person.

7 Q. Could you tell us approximately how large it is?

8 A. I can not estimate that for you, sir.

9 Q. Sir, for how many years did you work at the

10 Josefa building as a security guard?



13 Q. Sir, was it your testimony also yesterday that

14 you saw some cartons?



17 Q. Was it your testimony yesterday that you saw some

18 boxes in room 603?

19 A. Cartons, correct.

20 Q. And how many cartons did you see?

21 A. I know that there were some boxes there. I

22 didn't count them. I saw them.

23 Q. Would you approximately say how many boxes there

24 were?

25 A. I can not tell you exactly how many there were.

1002 1 I know that there was more than one.

2 Q. Were there a matter of ten or twenties or

3 hundreds?

4 A. That's quite a lot, sir.

5 Q. So would you tell approximately?

6 A. Probably if you are asking me approximation,

7 let's say five to seven.

8 Q. Now, sir, is there any entry in this log book to

9 show that five cartons were brought into the Josefa building

10 for room number 603?

11 A. No, sir. You asked me for an approximation and I

12 gave that to you.

13 Q. Sir, is there any indication in the log book in

14 front of you to show that there were any boxes were brought

15 into the Josefa building for room 603?

16 A. No, sir. I gave you an approximation because you

17 asked me.

18 Q. Sir, where did you see these cartons in room

19 number 603?

20 A. Yes, sir, they're in that section, there is a

21 divider that divides that room, and there are areas there

22 where you can store boxes. There were some that were in

23 there and there were some that were below the divider.

24 Q. Did you see them in the living area or the

25 bedroom area, sir?

1003 1 A. In the portion of the living room.

2 Q. And that's the same area where the kitchen is

3 located, am I correct, sir?

4 MR. SNELL: Objection, asked and answered.


6 Q. Now, sir, when you entered the room for the first

7 three times did you see any of these boxes?


9 interpreter?

10 THE COURT: When you entered the room for the

11 first three times did you see any of these boxes?

12 A. I didn't focus or pay attention to these things,

13 sir. My focus was on the sink.

14 Q. So you entered room number 603 for three times

15 and you did not see them in the living area?


17 Q. Sir, was it your testimony also that you saw a

18 bag which contained wire?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. And where did you see that bag, sir?

21 A. Yes, sir. In that divider as you enter through

22 the bedroom area I saw the bag there with the wires and long

23 nose pliers. I think you use them for some electrical work

24 or something.

25 Q. Now, sir, was it your testimony that when you

1004 1 were in room number 603 at the fourth time you heard the

2 phone ringing?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, if a person calls any room from outside the

5 Josefa building does he have to go through the operator or

6 the call would go directly to the room?

7 A. I have no knowledge of that, sir. I am a

8 security guard.

9 Q. Sir, were you a security guard for three years?



12 the person who you referred to as Mr. Haddad was always

13 wearing sun glasses?

14 A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir, in the daytime.

15 Q. And you only saw him once without sun glasses, am

16 I correct, sir?

17 A. Yes, sir, that is correct. I saw him one

18 instance and he wasn't wearing his glasses. It was in the

19 evening.

20 Q. At that time you saw that there was a difference

21 between the two eyes, am I correct, sir?


23 Q. Sir, was that a very distinctive feature of his

24 face?

25 A. Yes, sir.

1005 1 Q. Was that something that you wouldn't forget?

2 A. Yes, sir. That's something that is a feature

3 that I will not forget. The eyes are used for seeing so.

4 Q. So if you are asked by a person to describe that

5 person who you referred to as Mr. Haddad you would describe

6 his eyes, am I correct, sir?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, sir, do you recall when you were interviewed

9 by the FBI in February of 1995, you gave a description of

10 the person who you referred to as Mr. Haddad?

11 A. Correct, sir.

12 Q. And isn't it a fact, sir, that when you described

13 the person referred to as Mr. Haddad you never gave any

14 descriptions concerning his eyes?

15 A. It is probably possible that I did not mention to

16 them about your eye, but when I see you I see you.

17 Q. Sir, did you mention to the FBI about a

18 description of the person who was referred to as Mr. Haddad

19 about his eyes?


21 interpreter.

22 Q. When you described Mr. Haddad to the FBI did you

23 mention anything about his eyes?

24 A. I don't remember if I mentioned this to them.

25 Q. But you just testified here that it is a very

1006 1 distinctive feature of his face. Am I correct, sir?


3 Q. Sir, when you were interviewed by the FBI who

4 else was present?

5 A. Sir, I don't remember who else was there at that

6 time. Years has passed.

7 Q. Sir, was there an interpreter with you during the

8 meeting?

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. Who arranged for that meeting, sir?

11 A. I don't have any knowledge of who arranged it. I

12 was surprised when I was on duty that day and they arrived.

13 Q. When was the first time which you knew that you

14 were going to meet an FBI?

15 THE INTERPRETER: For the interpreter?

16 Q. When was the first time in which you were aware

17 that you were going to meet FBI agents?

18 A. I don't remember the dates or the month. I know

19 that something happened in 1995.

20 Q. Sir, what was your understanding prior to the

21 meeting for the purpose of the interview?

22 A. Yes, I tried to understand them to the best that

23 I can so I tried to understand them even though there was

24 not an interpreter.


1007 1 question?

2 THE COURT: Read the question back.

3 (Record read)

4 A. I had no idea why they were coming. All I did

5 was answer questions with regards to what happened in

6 January the 6th.

7 Q. Sir, did you tell them the same story which you

8 told the jury here yesterday?


10 Q. Did you tell them exactly the same thing which

11 you said here yesterday?

12 A. There may be some additions and deletions. Years

13 have passed.

14 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, could I have one

15 moment?

16 THE COURT: Yes.

17 (Pause)

18 Q. Sir, was it your testimony yesterday that there

19 was a time when the people from the media came into the

20 building?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Sir, if you know, was there any media coverage of

23 the incident that took place in apartment 603?


25 Q. So the incident of what happened in apartment 603

1008 1 was in the TV and the newspapers, am I correct, sir?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. And the photographs of the person referred to as

4 Mr. Haddad was also shown in the TV and newspapers, am I

5 correct, sir?

6 A. That's possible, sir. Some of them I saw. Some

7 of them I didn't.

8 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: I have no further questions,

9 your Honor.

10 THE COURT: We'll take a break.


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2 present)

3 THE COURT: Ms. Barrett, how long do you think

4 you'll be?

5 MS. BARRETT: About an hour and a half maybe, two

6 hours.

7 (Recess)


9 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, I'll renew a prior

10 application made for a mistrial and/or severance. Again,

11 it's not meant as criticism, but it's a fact. As I heard

12 much of the particularly afternoon cross-examination I found

13 it to be unfocused, scattered, scatter gun, no, to me

14 cognizable theory of defense. Particularly to give an

15 example, the series of questions that led to the answers

16 that of course January is rememerable than February because

17 it was the most important thing that I've witnessed or

18 occurred in my presence. I wrote that answer down before

19 the witness gave it because I knew it was coming. He was

20 walking into a right cross.

21 This occurred previously during the course of the

22 trial. And I find that I believe that in many ways based on

23 the opening given by Mr. Yousef and now his

24 cross-examination it may well take something away from the

25 defense that I've been trying to put across to the jury that

1010 1 I've been consistent with, and as such I think it becomes a

2 question of either an incompatible or antagonistic or

3 inconsistent defense. As a result I'm moving for relief of

4 either severance or mistrial or both.

5 THE COURT: All right. Get the witness, bring

6 the jury in.

7 MR. GREENFIELD: That was just an example by the

8 way. I didn't want to take up the rest of the afternoon.


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1011 1 ROMAN MARIANO, resumed, through the interpreter.

2 (Jury present)

3 THE COURT: Ms. Barrett.

4 CROSS-EXAMINATION

5 BY MS. BARRETT:

6 Q. Mr. Mariano, in your capacity as the security

7 guard at Dona Josefa with respect to pedestrian traffic your

8 job in keeping the log is to be as detailed as possible,

9 correct?

10 A. As it is possible, yes.

11 Q. Well, take a look at Government Exhibit 24B.

12 That shows a blown up copy of a page from the log book,

13 correct?

14 A. Yes, that is an enlargement of a log book but

15 that is the writing of a company that works with me.

16 Q. Yes, but it's an enlarged page, the writing is

17 enlarged and that's a sample page of the log book?


19 Q. And there is a column there for room number,

20 there is one for in and there is one for out?

21 A. That is correct, ma'am.

22 Q. And the column that is marked in reflects a time

23 that a person enters the building, correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the out reflects the time when a person goes

1012 1 out of the building?

2 A. Yes, ma'am.

3 Q. And the space for room number in that column the

4 room number is entered for any activity that relates to that

5 room, correct?

6 A. The number of the room on the first entry?

7 Q. The column that says room number when you enter

8 the number of the room does that -- withdrawn.

9 When a person enters or leaves the building you

10 also enter the room number of where the person is coming

11 from or where the person is going to?

12 A. Sometimes if we know where they are going then we

13 would put where they are going.

14 Q. Now, the largest space is the space in the

15 middle. Is that an area where a more detailed description

16 of the person entering the building is entered?



19 Q. The larger space, the large column, is that an

20 area where the security guard enters information about the

21 person that is entering or leaving the building?

22 A. Yes, this is possibly, it could possibly be the

23 name of the person that is leaving in living in that room.

24 Q. Is it also an area where if you do not know the

25 name of the person you enter some kind of identifying

1013 1 characteristic about the person?

2 A. What do you mean by that?

3 Q. For example, sir, say Mr. Haddad enters the

4 building and you have Mr. Haddad and company. You enter Mr.

5 Haddad's name because you know Mr. Haddad's name, correct?

6 A. That's correct, ma'am.

7 Q. And you put company. I believe you testified

8 that means companion?


10 Q. And that would be because you don't know the

11 companion's name, correct?

12 A. Yes, ma'am.

13 Q. And sometimes you, if a person comes in alone and

14 you don't know the name of the person, and you recognize the

15 nationality of the person you would also enter that

16 information, for example, one Arab or one Pakistani?


18 Q. And also you would note the number of persons

19 entering at any given time coming into the building or

20 leaving the building?

21 A. Yes, ma'am.

22 Q. Now, the Dona Josefa maintains a fair amount of

23 security, correct?

24 A. As it is possible, yes.

25 Q. In addition to the reception area where a

1014 1 receptionist sits there is always a security guard posted

2 outside the entrance of the building?


4 Q. And in fact you are roving with the inspection of

5 the building to make sure the building is safe from time to

6 time, correct?


8 Q. And that would be for the safety of the tenants

9 in the building?


11 Q. Is it fair to say that would also be to keep out

12 nonresidents, people who are not authorized to be there or

13 who are not paying tenants out of the building?


15 (Record read)

16 A. Yes. We do this if they're bad elements or it's

17 somebody that we knew that would do something that is no

18 good, but if they are friend of theirs, people that are

19 familiar with the tenants there, then we let them in.

20 Q. Now, when a nonresident enters the lobby you have

21 certain duties with respect to that person, correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You ask them who they wish to see, where they

24 want to go, correct?


1015 1 Q. And that visitor is identified in your log book?

2 A. Yes, ma'am.

3 Q. Sir, as a security guard would it be your duty to

4 notify management that a nonresident has moved into an

5 apartment?

6 A. That is not our obligation, ma'am.

7 Q. Well, in maintaining security in the building you

8 try to keep out strangers and people that do not belong

9 there; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, if they're causing a problem or some trouble

11 then we do not let them in.

12 Q. So if you see a stranger in the building that

13 moved into one of the rooms it would be a duty to

14 investigate and to inquire about that, correct?

15 A. Yes, we do that when, at times when it is needed.

16 Q. And did you ever find that a person that is not

17 authorized to be there or a stranger that is not authorized

18 to be there you would report that to management in addition

19 to helping take care of the situation of course?

20 A. Yes, we would probably do that, but first we

21 would probably need to ask the tenant, is this their friend

22 or is this somebody that they know. We don't want to be

23 embarrassed.

24 Q. Now, in the month of December, 1994, did you ever

25 notify anyone at the Dona Josefa, anyone in management that

1016 1 a nonresident had moved in into apartment 603?

2 A. I don't know anything about that.

3 Q. Do you recall -- withdrawn.

4 Do you recall making such a report to management

5 that a nonresident, an unauthorized person, had moved into

6 the Dona Josefa building into an apartment, into any

7 apartment in December of 1994?

8 A. I don't remember anything like that, ma'am.

9 Q. You never made such a report either in January of

10 1995, correct?

11 A. I made my own personal report.

12 Q. A report that a nonresident moved into apartment

13 603 or any other apartment in Dona Josefa?

14 A. No, ma'am. I just made a report that date of

15 January 6, 1993, and I made that report for the owners and

16 the management of the Josefa.

17 Q. Now, you testified that on December 8th a tenant

18 checked into apartment 603; is that correct?


20 Q. And you testified it was one tenant and that his

21 name was Naji Haddad; is that correct?


23 Q. Now, sir, you also testified today that you

24 recall the interview by the FBI but you're not quite sure

25 when?

1017 1 A. That is correct, ma'am.

2 Q. Could this interview be around February 24, 1995,

3 about seven weeks after the incident?

4 A. I don't know, ma'am, if that is the correct date.

5 MS. BARRETT: Your Honor, may I show the witness

6 3528?

7 THE COURT: He's got it.

8 Q. Look at the top of page 2. Does that remind you

9 that it was on February 24th that you were interviewed by

10 the FBI?

11 A. Yes, ma'am.

12 Q. And February 24th just about seven weeks after

13 the incident, you had a good memory of what happened on

14 January 6th; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, that is possible, ma'am.

16 Q. Well, you testified today that you would not

17 forget that incident for the rest of your life; is that

18 correct?


20 Q. And you also testified that you knew exactly what

21 had happened because you were there?


23 Q. So is it fair to say that only seven weeks later

24 that you would still have had a good memory of what had

25 happened at that time?

1018 1 A. That is possible, ma'am.

2 Q. And when you spoke to the FBI you told them the

3 truth, correct?

4 A. Yes, ma'am.

5 Q. You told them the truth to the best of your

6 ability.


8 Q. And when you were talking to them they were

9 taking notes?

10 A. I didn't notice if they were taking down their

11 notes. All I know is I was having a conversation with them.

12 Q. Mr. Mariano, as a security guard you have from

13 time to time occasion to investigate incidents in connection

14 with your job as a security guard, correct?

15 A. Yes, just like this incident that happened on

16 January the 6th. This is the first time that I had

17 investigated something.

18 Q. So you're used to investigating incidents?

19 A. I am not really used to doing investigation.

20 This is the first time that my efforts were needed to do an

21 investigation.

22 Q. But you just testified that like the incident

23 that happened on January 6th that you had occasion to

24 investigate other incidents?


1019 1 THE COURT: That's not what he said. He said it

2 was the first time.

3 Q. Prior to January 6th have you ever had occasion

4 to conduct any kind of investigation regarding --

5 THE COURT: Sustained. He just said it was the

6 first time twice.

7 MS. BARRETT: Your Honor, that's not my

8 recollection.

9 THE COURT: You want it read back to you? Read

10 it back.

11 MS. BARRETT: I'd appreciate that.

12 (Record read)

13 THE COURT: Next question.

14 Q. Now, you knew when you were speaking to the FBI

15 that they were investigating this incident that happened at

16 the Dona Josefa?

17 A. Yes, ma'am.

18 Q. And so you knew the importance of them receiving

19 accurate information as possible about the incident?


21 Q. And so you took care in telling them the truth

22 the way you knew how things happened?


24 THE COURT: Yes, sustained. Next question.

25 Q. Do you remember telling the FBI the early part

1020 1 of, during the early part of December, 1994, that two

2 unidentified Arabs rented apartment 603 and that one was

3 Naji and the other was a person whose name was not known?

4 A. I don't remember anything of that sort.

5 Q. Sir, would you look at paragraph 3 of page 1 of

6 3520A. Would the interpreter please read it to Mr. Mariano.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Page 3, paragraph --

8 THE COURT: Page 1, paragraph 3.


10 Q. Now, sir, does that refresh your memory as to

11 whether or not you told the FBI that in the early part of

12 December two unidentified Arabs rented apartment 603 at the

13 Dona Josefa?

14 A. Yes, I remember.

15 Q. You remember telling them that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, you testified yesterday and today that

18 December 8th one person by the name of Naji Haddad rented

19 apartment 603; is that correct?


21 Q. When did the second person, or when did the two

22 unidentified Arabs rent apartment 603?

23 A. I recognized him, Mr. Naji Haddad, as the renter

24 of the apartment on December 8th.

25 Q. Now, in fact, on December 8th there is an entry

1021 1 in your log book that states that Mr. Naji Haddad checked

2 in; is that correct?


4 Q. Is there any indication on that date that another

5 person checked in with Mr. Haddad?

6 A. No, ma'am.

7 Q. When do you remember the second occupant to be

8 checking in into 603?


10 THE COURT: Yes.

11 Q. You testified that two unidentified Arabs rented

12 apartment 603 in the early part of December. Was one of

13 those Arabs Mr. Naji Haddad?


15 THE COURT: No. He said he said that to the FBI,

16 not testified to that, first of all. Secondly, there are

17 other problems to it. Redo it.

18 Q. The person that you identified as Naji, Naji's

19 friend, Mr. Ahmed, when was the first time that you saw him

20 at the Dona Josefa?

21 A. I don't exactly remember when it was that I first

22 saw him, but I know that I first saw him around the month of

23 December.

24 Q. Do you remember if it was the early part of

25 December?

1022 1 A. Just in the month of December. That's what I

2 remember, just in the month of December.

3 Q. Sir, when you told the FBI that these two people,

4 these two Arabs rented apartment 603 were you telling them

5 the truth?


7 THE COURT: I didn't understand it. I didn't

8 hear it. Go ahead, what's the end of it?

9 MS. BARRETT: Was he telling the FBI the truth

10 when he told them that two Arabs rented the apartment in the

11 early part of December?

12 THE COURT: All right, go ahead, answer it.

13 A. Yes, that is the truth, ma'am.

14 Q. And these two Arabs did you ever later identify

15 them?

16 A. Yes, ma'am.

17 Q. And when you say the early part of December what

18 is the early part of December? Is that before the first 15

19 days?

20 A. I did not mention a time frame that is in the

21 middle, the beginning or the end of December. I said in the

22 month of December.

23 Q. My question to you, sir, when you said to the FBI

24 that these two people rented the apartment the early part of

25 December, when you said the early part of December, what did

1023 1 you mean by the early part of December?

2 A. That's possible that it's before Christmas.

3 Q. So to you the early part of December means before

4 Christmas?


6 THE COURT: I'll let it stand. Go ahead, answer

7 the question.

8 A. I didn't say anything to them, you know middle or

9 around Christmas time of December. What I told them was the


11 Q. That was not my question, sir. My question to

12 you is, does the early part of December mean before

13 Christmas to you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you just stated that you later identified

16 those two people that had moved in apartment 603 that at the

17 time you stated were unidentified Arabs, you said you later

18 identified them?


20 interpreter, please.

21 Q. You later identified those two people that moved

22 into apartment 603; is that correct?

23 A. Could you repeat that?

24 MS. BARRETT: Could the reporter read it.

25 (Record read)

1024 1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. And who are these two people?

3 A. It was the first time the one person that I knew

4 was Mr. Naji Haddad.

5 Q. And who was the other person?

6 A. Yes, I didn't know him the first time that the

7 person moved in there. I only knew Mr. Ahmed at that date

8 of January the 6th when that smoke started to come out of

9 that apartment.

10 Q. But you remember him to be the person that moved

11 into the apartment with Mr. Haddad the early part of

12 December?



15 Q. Now, do you recall if that second person,

16 Mr. Ahmed, if he moved in the same day on December 8th or

17 was it afterwards?

18 A. What I remember was the first one that checked in

19 was Mr. Haddad and at a later time I saw Mr. Ahmed.

20 Q. When you say, a later time, are you referring to

21 the same day?

22 A. No, ma'am.

23 Q. How soon after December 8th did this second

24 person check in? Was it within a week?

25 A. Perhaps a week or two weeks.

1025 1 Q. Now, you stated that you did not know this

2 person's name; is that correct?


4 Q. And so when he -- withdrawn.

5 Did he, did this person enter and leave the

6 building from time to time after moving in?


8 THE COURT: No. Let me hear the whole question.

9 Go ahead.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could you repeat the question


12 Q. When you said that this person moved in probably,

13 that that person checked in at a later time after Mr.

14 Haddad, after he checked in, did he come and go, did he

15 enter and leave the building at different times?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was he always with Mr. Haddad when he entered and

18 left the building?

19 A. During the course of my duty I see them a lot

20 together.

21 Q. And when you made notations of them entering and

22 leaving the building you knew Mr. Haddad's name so you would

23 put Mr. Haddad, correct?


25 Q. And how would you identify this second person

1026 1 with Mr. Haddad?

2 A. I would write Mr. Haddad and 1 co, just like

3 that.

4 Q. Now, during the time, during the month of

5 December did you ever, did you see anyone else other than

6 this person with Mr. Haddad?

7 A. Just he, ma'am.

8 Q. So every time you put Mr. Haddad and one

9 companion you are referring to Mr. Ahmed, the person you

10 later identified as Mr. Ahmed; is that correct?

11 A. I just don't know whether that is being fair to

12 Mr. Ahmed. Mr. Haddad is the one that I don't know.

13 Q. You just stated --

14 A. That I know, I'm sorry.

15 Q. You just stated that you never saw anyone else

16 with Mr. Haddad other than Mr. Ahmed; is that correct?


18 Q. So then is it fair to say that from the time that

19 Mr. Haddad checked in on December 8th, whenever you made a

20 notation, Mr. Haddad and one companion, you are referring to

21 Mr. Haddad and Mr. Ahmed; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, during the work of my duty when I refer to

23 that as company that refers to Mr. Ahmed. On the other

24 people's notations, that I can not tell you.

25 Q. I was only asking about your notation, sir.

1027 1 A. You are correct.

2 Q. Now, did you ever see Mr. Ahmed alone?

3 A. No, I didn't.

4 Q. You never saw him enter the building alone?

5 A. It's very possible that he had entered by himself

6 on a few instances, but I don't remember. I might not have

7 been there.

8 Q. While you were on duty do you remember ever

9 seeing Mr. Ahmed alone?

10 A. I don't remember if I saw him alone.

11 Q. Do you remember ever seeing him leave the

12 building alone?

13 A. I don't remember, ma'am.

14 Q. Other than referring to Mr. Ahmed prior to

15 January 6th before you knew his name, other than referring

16 to Mr. Ahmed as Mr. Haddad's companion did you refer to him

17 with any other name by any other name?

18 A. I have no name for him. I would write down

19 companion or Arab.

20 MS. BARRETT: Your Honor, would this be a good

21 time to break?

22 THE COURT: Sure. Ladies and gentlemen, see you

23 tomorrow morning.

24 (Adjourned to 10:00 a.m., Thursday, June 20,

25 1996)

1029




22 ALSO PRESENT: Lillie Grant, Paralegal, U.S. Attorney's Office 23

24 INTERPRETERS: AZIA ISMAIL, HASSAM MOAWAD, MIRA RIVERA 25

1030

1 THE COURT: All right, sit down, please.


3 interpreter.

4 (Jury present)

5 THE COURT: You know when a witness testifies

6 through an interpreter you get used to hearing the

7 interpreter's voice and you associate it with the witness.

8 I didn't want you to think that the witness has gone through

9 a voice change. I hope you remember Mira Rivera who is not

10 the young man who was with us yesterday, but she is the

11 interpreter.


13 BY MS. BARRETT:

14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mariano.

15 A. Good morning, ma'am.

16 Q. During your testimony yesterday you indicated

17 that during the month of December -- during the month that

18 Mr. Haddad stayed in apartment 603 that you only saw him

19 with one other individual and that was a person that lived

20 in that apartment with him; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. Did you also testify that even though you're not

23 quite sure of the time that this second occupant moved in,

24 that he moved in sometime after Mr. Haddad moved in; is that

25 correct?

1031

1 A. Yes, that's right, ma'am.

2 Q. Now, during that month when you worked you made

3 numerous entries in the log book with respect to 603; is

4 that correct?


6 Q. And when you made entries in your log book, it is

7 your practice to be as accurate as you can, is it not?

8 A. Yes, I wish that they're always right.

9 Q. And when you know the name of a person that is

10 entering or leaving the building you put that person's name

11 in the log book when you refer to that person?


13 Q. You also stated that -- was it your testimony

14 that you never saw Mr. Haddad's companion alone while were

15 you working at the Dona Josefa?


17 Q. Now, on January 7th, the morning of January 7th

18 while you were working will you please look at your log

19 book.

20 MR. SNELL: Government Exhibit 25, your Honor.

21 A. May I open the notebook, please?

22 Q. Yes.

23 THE COURT: Oh, sure.

24 A. Could you please repeat the date?

25 Q. January 6th to January 7th, the entry after 11 --

1032

1 the entry after the entry that would refer to smoke in

2 apartment 603.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could you repeat that, please?

4 Q. I would like Mr. Mariano, to look at the entry

5 that comes one after the entry that notes the smoke in

6 apartment 603.

7 A. Where on this page?

8 Q. Well, is there an entry that says 11:30 p.m. Paco

9 fire station?

10 A. Yes, there is.

11 Q. Now, the entry that comes right after that, does

12 the entry for the room number say 603?


14 Q. And it is true, is it, the description of the

15 person, does it say one Pakistani?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And what is the time in the in column?

18 A. There's no time.

19 Q. What is the time in the out column?

20 A. 12:05.

21 Q. Now, look at the next entry for 603.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Does the description say one Pakistani?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did he enter alone?

1033

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Would you read the entry?

3 A. Room 6063, one Pakistani with taxi in, 1:20 a.m,

4 out, 5:10 a.m.

5 Q. Now, this person that left at 5:10 a.m. that was

6 the person that was arrested by the police; is that correct?

7 A. That's wrong. It's 5:10 in the morning.

8 Q. Yes. Was that person, that Pakistani that left

9 at 5:10 a.m, is that the individual that was arrested by the

10 Philippine police?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, during this month that these two people

13 lived in the apartment --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could you --

15 Q. During the month that these two tenants lived in

16 apartment 603 you never referred to Mr. Haddad's companion

17 as a Pakistani; is that correct in your log book?


19 THE COURT: He can answer the question.

20 A. During that time I had not written one Pakistani,

21 but after -- I'm sorry -- during that time I had not

22 referred to him by any, by any particular name. So I just

23 called him Pakistani. Eventually, I learned who he was, and

24 then I called him by that name.

25 Q. My question to you, sir, during the time that you

1034

1 saw Mr. Haddad coming in and going out of the building with

2 a person you said you always saw him with, did you ever

3 refer to Mr. Haddad's companion by the name Pakistani? Did

4 you ever describe him as a Pakistani?


6 Q. Sir, would you look in your log book for the


8 A. It is only a book for January I have.

9 MR. SNELL: Government Exhibit 24, your Honor.

10 A. What would you like me to do?

11 Q. December 8th you were on duty for one shift.

12 A. Ma'am, you said December 8th?

13 Q. December 8th, 1994. You worked that day, didn't

14 you?

15 A. Yes, I worked.

16 Q. The hours are from 7 to 3.

17 A. Yes, ma'am.

18 Q. You have an entry there for apartment 603?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What does that entry say?

21 A. It is written here when Naji Haddad checked in.

22 Q. Sir, I would like you to read what the entry

23 says?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Please read what the entry states in connection

1035

1 with room 603?

2 A. (In English) Room 603 Mr. Naji Haddad check in

3 12:20 p.m. Out 1:35 p.m.

4 Q. Now, the next time you worked after that in

5 December was what day, sir? Was that December 10?

6 A. It's the 9th of December.

7 Q. Is there an entry for room -- what hours did you

8 work on the 9th of December?


10 Q. Did you make an entry in connection with

11 apartment 603 at that time?

12 A. I did not put any entry.

13 Q. Now, the next time you worked there was December

14 10th; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, ma'am.

16 Q. And at that time you worked from 7 a.m. to 3 p.m.

17 A. It's 7 in the morning until 3.

18 Q. And during that work shift did you make an entry

19 with respect to apartment 603?

20 A. There's no entry. Only an out.

21 Q. Well, look towards the bottom of the page where

22 it says, room 603. Do you see that?

23 A. Yes, it's there.

24 Q. Read the description from the large column? What

25 does it say?

1036

1 A. (In English) Room 603, Mr. Naji Haddad out, 1:50

2 p.m.

3 Q. Now, the next time you worked, sir, was December

4 11th.


6 Q. What was your shift at that time?


8 Q. Now, there is an entry with respect to apartment

9 603 on that date; is that correct?

10 A. What's written is the out.

11 Q. What is written in the description section of the

12 person that you're writing about?

13 A. I have written the name of the person who lives

14 there.

15 Q. Please read that entry, will you, sir?

16 A. Yes. (In English) Room 603 Mr. Naji Haddad out 1

17 p.m.

18 Q. Now, let's go to December 12th. You worked from

19 7 a.m. to 3 p.m.; is that correct?


21 Q. And there is an entry with respect to apartment

22 603.


24 Q. Please read the entry as it is written in the

25 log?

1037

1 A. (In English) Room 603 Mr. Naji Haddad with taxi

2 out.

3 Q. You also worked on December 13th and also made an

4 entry with respect to apartment 603. Please read the entry

5 as it is written in the log.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Please read the entry as it is written in the

8 log?

9 A. (In English) Room 603 Mr. Haddad with 1 co in 2

10 p.m.

11 Q. When you say 1 co, what does that mean?

12 A. There is one companion.

13 Q. Now, would it be fair to say that you never saw

14 Mr. Haddad with anyone but this -- withdrawn.

15 Is it fair to say that because you never saw Mr.

16 Haddad with anyone other than the person that lived in the

17 room with him that this companion refers to a person that is

18 living in the room?

19 A. I'm not sure if that is him, because I have not

20 written his true name which is Ahmed.

21 Q. Sir, did you testify yesterday that the only

22 person that you ever saw Mr. Haddad with while you're

23 working at the Dona Josefa was a person that lived with him

24 in apartment 603?

25 A. Yes, ma'am.

1038

1 Q. So then is it fair to say then that the companion

2 you're referring to here is the person that lived in

3 apartment 603?

4 A. In the beginning I wasn't really sure, but

5 towards the end then it was clear to me that that person was

6 the person living with him in that apartment.

7 Q. Now, the next time you worked was on December

8 14th.


10 Q. You also made an entry with respect to apartment

11 603. Could you read that please as it's written?

12 A. (In English) Room 603, Ms. Eugle, D. Nataduan

13 with 1 co visitor.

14 Q. Did you say room 603 was that with one visitor?

15 A. Visitor of 603. It is a visitor of 603.

16 Q. And the next time that you worked again -- oh,

17 withdrawn.

18 That visitor of 603 was that the companion that

19 you saw Mr. Haddad with?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could you repeat the question,

21 please?

22 Q. That visitor that you just spoke about, the entry

23 states Mr. Haddad with a visitor; is that correct?

24 A. What is written here is, first it says a visitor

25 came in, and then Mr. Haddad came in.

1039

1 Q. I see. Now, does that visitor, that is not the

2 companion that you had seen Mr. Haddad with; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Are you pertaining to the one visitor?

5 Q. Yes, this one visitor that was going to 603, is

6 that the same person that you generally saw with Mr. Haddad,

7 his companion, that lived with him?

8 A. Is it written in the log book that it is in

9 December 14th?

10 Q. No. My question to you, sir, the visitor that

11 you referring to in the log book, is that the same person

12 that you generally saw with Mr. Haddad and who you referred

13 to as Mr. Haddad's companion?

14 A. Yes, ma'am.

15 Q. And did he come in at a separate time from Mr.

16 Haddad?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, ma'am, could you --

18 Q. I said the entry as it s written here, did they

19 come in separately or did they come in together?

20 A. They usually come in together, when they come

21 into the building or when they leave the building.

22 MS. BARRETT: One second, your Honor.

23 (Pause)

24 Q. Sir, just a clarification. Would you read again

25 exactly as it is written, room 603, with respect to the

1040

1 entry with respect to room 603?

2 A. What date, please?

3 Q. The same date, December 14th.

4 A. Yes, ma'am.

5 Q. Read that entry from the time that it says room

6 number to the place that it says out. I'd like to you read

7 the entire entry. It says room 603, is that correct, in the

8 room number area?


10 Q. Now, in the larger area does it say Mr. Naji

11 Haddad with one company in taxi?

12 A. It is not one. I have written three, it is clear

13 and it says three companions with taxi.

14 Q. Okay, read it exactly the way it's written. The

15 first word is?

16 A. There are two entries regarding 603. Should I

17 read the top or the bottom?

18 Q. The second entry.

19 A. Yes, I will read it. (English) Room 603 Mr. Naji

20 Haddad with vehicle taxi out 1:05 p.m.

21 Q. And when you say --

22 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, could we have it from the


24 THE COURT: Sure. It's the same thing. Go

25 ahead.

1041

1 A. Room 603, Mr. Naji Haddad with three co with taxi

2 out 1:05 p.m.

3 Q. And 3 co means three companions, correct?


5 Q. Was it your testimony before in court that you

6 only saw Mr. Haddad with one companion and that was the

7 person that lived in apartment 603?

8 A. Yes, that's right. It is usually one companion,

9 but that day he came in with two women companions and that

10 male companion at 9 a.m., and when they left it was the same

11 two women, and that one companion. So then we ended up with

12 three companions.

13 Q. So is it fair to say that you saw Mr. Haddad with

14 other persons other than the person that lived with him in

15 apartment 603?


17 Q. And so when you testified yesterday that you only

18 saw Mr. Haddad with just one person every time you saw him,

19 that was not the truth?


21 THE COURT: Sustained. Next question.

22 Q. Now, you said there were two entries that you

23 made on December 14th. You just read the second one. Could

24 you read the first one?

25 A. Yes, ma'am.

1042

1 Q. As it is written.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, ma'am?

3 Q. Please read it back the way it's written.

4 A. Room 603 Ms. Eugle, D. Nataduan with 1 co visitor

5 in 9:05 a.m., out 1:05 p.m.

6 Q. So then other than Mr. Haddad and his companion

7 there were other people that were visiting apartment 603?

8 A. That is right, ma'am, but during my duty this was

9 one time that there was one person who, one other person who

10 visited Mr. Naji Haddad, and that time when there were two

11 women that went to see him.

12 Q. But didn't you just read the entry that said one

13 companion --



16 Q. Now, the next time you work, sir in the month of

17 December was December 15th; is that correct?

18 A. May I open so I can read this?

19 Q. Yes, please do.


21 Q. There was an entry with respect to 603?


23 Q. What does it say?

24 A. May I read it?

25 Q. Please do.

1043

1 A. (In English) Room 603 Mr. Naji Haddad with taxi

2 out 12:30 p.m.

3 Room 603 Mr. Naji Haddad with taxi out 12:30 p.m.

4 Q. So the next time you worked was December 16th; is

5 that correct?


7 Q. And on that day you also made an entry with

8 respect to apartment 603.


10 Q. What does that entry say?

11 A. May I read it?

12 Q. Please do.

13 A. Room 603 Mr. Naji Haddad in, 10:45 p.m.

14 Q. You worked on December 17th.

15 A. Yes, ma'am.

16 Q. And you worked from 3 p.m. to 11 p.m. You also

17 made an entry with respect to apartment 603, correct?

18 A. Yes, that's correct, ma'am.

19 Q. Would you please read what is written in that

20 entry?

21 A. Room 603 Mr. Haddad out 4:30 p.m.

22 Q. Now, sir, you didn't work December 18th, did you?

23 The next time you worked was December 19th from 7 a.m. to 11

24 p.m.

25 A. On December 19th.

1044

1 Q. Yes, and at that time you also made an entry with

2 respect to apartment 603.


4 Q. Would you please read that entry as it is

5 written?

6 A. Yes, ma'am. (In English) Mr. Haddad, room 603,

7 Mr. Haddad, out 10 a.m.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Room 603, Mr. Haddad out 10

9 a.m.

10 Q. Now, the next time you work, sir, was December

11 20th; is that correct?


13 Q. Will you please read the entry that you made with

14 respect to apartment 603?

15 A. (In English) Room 603, Mr. Haddad in 9:30 p.m.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Room, 603, Mr. Haddad in, 9:30

17 p.m.

18 Q. Sir, the next time you worked was December 22nd;

19 is that correct?


21 Q. And you made two entries on that day with respect

22 to apartment 603.


24 Q. Would you please read the first entry?

25 A. (In English) Room 603, Mr. Haddad with 1 co, out

1045

1 11:15 a.m.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Room 603 Mr. Haddad with 1 co

3 out 11:15 a.m.

4 Q. Will you please read the second entry?

5 A. Mr. Haddad, room 603, Mr. Haddad with 1 co in

6 5:20 p.m., out 7:50 p.m.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Room 603 Mr. Haddad with 1 co

8 in 5:20 p.m., out 7:50 p.m.

9 Q. Now, with respect to those two entries when you

10 say 1 co you were referring to the companion that was living

11 with Mr. Haddad in room 603; is that correct?


13 Q. So the next time you work was on December 23rd.


15 Q. And during your work here from 3 p.m. to 11 p.m.

16 you made an entry with respect to apartment 603.


18 Q. Again, will you please read that to the jury.

19 A. (In English) Room 603 Mr. Haddad with 1 co out

20 4:35 p.m.

21 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, could we have a

22 five-minute break, please?

23 THE COURT: Okay, ladies and gentlemen.

24 (Jury not present; witness and interpreter not

25 present)

1046

1 THE COURT: What's happening?

2 MR. GREENFIELD: Marshals informed me he's not

3 feeling well.

4 THE COURT: All right.

5 (Recess)


7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1047



3 interpreter.


5 MS. BARRETT: Your Honor, may I have the reporter

6 read back the last question and the last answer?

7 THE COURT: Sure.

8 (Record read)

9 Q. Now, Mr. Mariano, I believe that answer was in

10 connection with an entry that was made on December 23rd; is

11 that correct? Well, after December 23rd you worked other

12 days up until December 31st. Will you look at your log book

13 from December 23rd up until December 31st and read any entry

14 that you made that says the word Pakistani?

15 A. Should I read it?

16 Q. Yes, I would like for you to look at your

17 schedule, your work schedule for December 23rd through the

18 31st and any entry that you made that states the word

19 Pakistani I would like for you to read that entry to the

20 jury.

21 A. Yes, ma'am.

22 Q. Will you look and see if you use the word

23 Pakistani up until the end of December 31st?

24 A. Yes, just a minute, I will look at the notebook.

25 (Pause)

1048

1 Until the 1st of January?

2 Q. December 31st, up until December 31st?

3 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

4 Q. Did you look through your log book up to December

5 31st?

6 A. Yes, ma'am.

7 Q. You made no entries that state the word

8 Pakistani; is that correct?


10 Q. Now, let's look at the next log book that starts

11 in January 1st. Will you look at your entry for January 1

12 to January 5th, first five days in January.

13 A. (In English) January 1 to?

14 Q. January 1, 1995, to January 5, 1995. Could you

15 look at the entries you made during that time period and

16 read any entry that states the word Pakistani?

17 A. There is no Pakistani written.

18 Q. Now, you worked on January 6th, the night of the

19 incident.

20 A. Yes, ma'am.

21 Q. And at that time you worked from 7 p.m. to 7 p.m.

22 That was your shift?

23 A. That's right, ma'am.

24 Q. Now, from 7 p.m. to 12 midnight, up to 12

25 midnight, is there any entry that used the word Pakistani

1049

1 before midnight?

2 A. May I look at the notebook, please?

3 Q. Sure, sir. Is your last entry before midnight

4 11:30 p.m. on January 6th?


6 Q. Is your last entry in that book 11:30 p.m.,

7 January 6th before midnight?

8 A. This was until next day.

9 Q. My question to you, sir, will you look at the log

10 book, the last entry before midnight, does it state 11:30

11 p.m., and that was with respect to Paco fire station?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could you rephrase the

13 question, please, again in totality?

14 Q. The last entry, isn't it a fact that the last

15 entry that you made before midnight on January 6th is at

16 11:30 p.m. and it relates to the Paco fire station?

17 A. It's 11:50 at night.

18 Q. That was the last entry before midnight?

19 A. Yes, ma'am, that is it.

20 Q. And before that entry is there any entry that

21 states Pakistani?

22 A. There is none.

23 Q. Now, sir, there was an entry made at 7:45 p.m.

24 with respect to apartment 603; is that correct?

25 A. Where is it?

1050

1 Q. Early in the evening at 7:45 p.m.


3 Q. And that entry states that Mr. Haddad entered the

4 building with his companion at 7:45 p.m.


6 Q. And that they both left at 10:35 p.m.


8 Q. And this companion who was with Mr. Haddad refers

9 to the person that was in apartment 603 with him?


11 Q. This companion that left at 7:35 -- I'm sorry --

12 that left at 7:45 p.m. and returned -- withdrawn.

13 This companion that entered the building at 7:45

14 p.m. with Mr. Haddad and subsequently left at 10:35 p.m.

15 with Mr. Haddad, is this the companion that was residing

16 with Mr. Haddad in apartment 603?

17 A. Yes, that is him.

18 Q. Now, sir, after midnight, that would be January

19 7th, after your last entry January 6th, which was at 11:50

20 p.m. you made an entry after midnight; is that correct?

21 A. Could you please repeat the question?

22 Q. Sir, will you look at the log book for January,

23 early part of January 7th, right after the entry that you

24 made at 11:50 regarding the fire station.

25 A. Where is it on the page? Is it below the entry

1051

1 about the Paco fire station?

2 Q. Yes, right after the entry, the next entry.

3 Would you please read that entry?

4 A. (In English) Room 603 one Pakistani out 12:05

5 a.m.

6 Q. That Pakistani was alone; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, ma'am.

8 Q. The next entry refers to room 601; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes, ma'am, that's right.

11 Q. And the entry that comes immediately after that

12 refers to the Pakistani with a taxi?

13 A. Yes, ma'am.

14 Q. That Pakistani came in at 1:24 p.m. I'm sorry,

15 1:24 a.m.

16 A. No, ma'am.

17 Q. What time did he come in? Can you read that

18 time?

19 A. 1:24 a.m., 1:20 a.m.

20 Q. And then he leaves at 5:10 a.m.

21 A. Yes, ma'am.

22 Q. And so that we are clear, that is the person that

23 got arrested the night of January 6th, I mean the early

24 morning of January 6th?


1052

1 Q. And at 5:10 a.m. he leaves with the police; is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes, ma'am.

4 Q. Now, with respect to the event of January 6th,

5 the evening of January 6th, you testified that about 10:45

6 p.m. while at your post outside Dona Josefa the first thing

7 you noticed was Mr. Haddad and his companion running out the

8 building with their shoes in their hands?


10 Q. When you noticed the men running out of the

11 building you had not yet noticed the smoke coming from the

12 top of the building?


14 Q. And you also testified that two men returned back

15 to the building, went upstairs?

16 A. They were carrying, they were wearing their shoes

17 by then, they went up.

18 Q. Now, when they ran out the building did you pay

19 attention to where they were going?


21 Q. When they ran out of the building did you pay

22 attention to where they were going?

23 A. I didn't really pay attention, but I just, but I

24 was baffled why they were running out of the building

25 they're carrying their shoes in their hands.

1053

1 Q. When you say you were baffled does that mean that

2 you found it unusual?

3 A. Yes, that was the first time I saw them running

4 like that.

5 Q. So you found that unusual?

6 A. Yes, ma'am.

7 Q. Were you able to see in which direction they ran?

8 A. I just saw them heading towards the street. I

9 didn't really pay attention any more. All I know is they

10 were heading towards the street.

11 Q. You didn't pay attention despite the fact that

12 you found it unusual?

13 A. I mean I didn't really meddle, but I was

14 wondering why that happened.

15 Q. Now, how much time passed between the time the

16 men left the building and when they returned?

17 A. It was a very short while, minutes.

18 Q. How many minutes approximately?

19 A. I can't be approximate how many minutes that was.

20 Q. Five minutes?

21 A. Could be that.

22 Q. Could it be ten minutes?

23 A. I believe it was, it would not have lasted longer

24 than ten.

25 Q. So is it fair to say between five and ten

1054

1 minutes?

2 A. Yes, maybe.

3 Q. And during that time you still had not, during

4 the time that they were out, you still had not noticed the

5 smoke from the top of the building?

6 A. No, I did not. Not yet.

7 Q. By the way, sir, the fact that they were running

8 out barefoot and that you found it unusual you would not

9 forget such a thing, would you?

10 A. Yes, I can't forget it because that was the

11 truth.

12 Q. When you spoke to the FBI on February 24th, 1995,

13 you never told them anything about the men running outside

14 with their shoes; is that correct?

15 A. I don't remember whether I mentioned that to them

16 because it's been a year.

17 Q. Well, I show you what is marked 3520. Look at

18 the top of page 2, the first paragraph.

19 Would the interpreter read the first paragraph to

20 Mr. Mariano.

21 Does that refresh your memory as to whether or

22 not you told, what you told the FBI on February 24th.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, ma'am, may I read

24 what you want him to read?

25 MS. BARRETT: Yes.

1055

1 THE INTERPRETER: What is it?

2 MS. BARRETT: Paragraph 1 on the second page.


4 Q. Now, sir, does that refresh your recollection as

5 to whether you told the FBI on that day that these two men

6 ran out of the building carrying their shoes?

7 A. What's written here is right.

8 Q. And there is no indication about two men carrying

9 shoes, is there?

10 A. Excuse me, ma'am, what is really your question?

11 Q. My question is, did you remember, do you remember

12 telling the FBI when you were interviewed by them that two

13 men ran out of the building carrying shoes? That's my

14 question.

15 A. I told them about it.

16 Q. Again, from the document that was just read to

17 you --

18 MR. SNELL: Objection, your Honor.

19 THE COURT: No, I don't know, it all depends.

20 Let me hear the rest of the question.

21 Q. After reading the paragraph that was just, after

22 listening to the paragraph that was just read to you you

23 still insist that that's what you told the FBI?


25 THE COURT: You want to offer the document?

1056

1 Otherwise it is sustained.

2 Q. Now, do you remember telling the FBI on the 24th

3 that you saw the smoke at 10:45 p.m. and it was only after

4 that time that you saw the two men exiting the building?

5 A. The sequences, the sequence of the time, I saw

6 the smoke and the exit of the two men, I mixed that up, but

7 what exactly happened was right.

8 Q. What exactly happened?

9 A. What is really right is that first I saw these

10 two men running outside with their shoes in their hands, and

11 then they returned upstairs after a short while. And then I

12 saw the smoke coming out of the building.

13 Q. Now, sir, you interviewed with the FBI just seven

14 weeks after the incident. Is it fair to say that your

15 memory was better seven weeks after the incident than now

16 over a year later?


18 Q. So then it is fair to say that you would have,

19 you would give a more accurate description of what happened

20 on January 6th seven days after the incident than today over

21 a year later?

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please repeat the

23 question?

24 (Record read)

25 MS. BARRETT: I meant seven weeks.

1057

1 MR. SNELL: Objection. Yes.

2 A. What you're saying, my question, I ask you,

3 ma'am, is it what you're saying is that my memory is even

4 keener now a year after those seven weeks after the incident

5 had passed?

6 Q. My question to you, sir, which would be, which

7 would be better, your memory seven weeks after the incident

8 or your memory over a year later?

9 A. Yes, ma'am, you may say that.

10 Q. Now, you also entered in your log book that you

11 did a roving at 10 p.m.; is that correct, of that evening,

12 January 6th?

13 A. Yes, I did a roving inspection.

14 Q. How long does it take to do your roving?

15 A. It depends on how long you spend roving upstairs.

16 Q. Roving consists of inspecting the entire

17 building?

18 A. Yes, ma'am.

19 Q. That's like a walk-through inspection?

20 A. Yes, ma'am, that's it.

21 Q. Approximately how long did it take you that

22 evening to do your roving?

23 A. I don't really remember how long it took me.

24 Q. Was it within a half an hour?

25 A. I don't really know if it takes that long.

1058

1 Q. Would you say about 15 minutes?

2 A. We may say that, too. I'm not really sure.

3 Q. After your roving did you immediately return to

4 your post?

5 A. Yes, ma'am.

6 Q. Now, look in your log book again. You made an

7 entry that at 7:45 p.m. two men entered the building --

8 A. What date?

9 Q. January 6th, the evening of January 6th.

10 A. Should I look?

11 Q. Please do. There is an entry that Mr. Haddad and

12 companion they entered the building at 7:45 p.m.


14 Q. And there is an entry that they left the building

15 at 10:35 p.m.


17 Q. Is there an entry that the two men ran out of the

18 building with shoes in their hands?

19 A. I didn't write down the entry, but I saw them

20 running, and so I remember.

21 Q. But you didn't -- withdrawn.

22 Despite the fact that you found it unusual you

23 made no entry of that?



1059

1 Q. Now, after the two men returned to the building

2 was that the time you looked up and saw smoke?

3 A. Yes, ma'am.

4 Q. By the way, Mr. Mariano, when you do your roving

5 when you leave your post for other reasons, does anyone

6 overlook the entering of the building to inquire of persons

7 coming in and out of the building?

8 A. No, ma'am, because at that time there's only one

9 guard.

10 Q. And the elevators and stairs in the lobby of the

11 Dona Josefa is that close to your post outside than it is to

12 the reception area where the receptionist is?

13 A. It is far from my post.

14 MS. BARRETT: One moment, your Honor.

15 (Pause)

16 Q. I show you what is marked Government Exhibit 33A

17 and 33B.

18 Could you hold up 33A, turn it around so the jury

19 can see it.

20 Now, can you show us where the receptionist is?

21 A. Yes, inside this.

22 Q. Show me the right of that space that you showed

23 me, the right-hand section. Isn't it a fact that she sits

24 to the far left?

25 A. This is for the boss, for the manager. The boss

1060

1 or the manager sits there.

2 Q. What about the receptionist?

3 A. Over here.

4 Q. And where is the stairs related to the reception

5 area?

6 A. Over here.

7 Q. Next would you hold up the second photograph.

8 Where would your post be in relation to the stairs?

9 A. I am way, I'm outside. I am far. There is still

10 a door right before you get to the receptionist area.

11 Q. Are the stairs directly in line with your post

12 outside?

13 A. No, ma'am.

14 Q. It's not directly in line with the entrance to

15 the building?

16 A. No, ma'am.

17 Q. It's to the right of the entrance or to the left?

18 A. The entrance of what?

19 Q. When you get into the building do you have to

20 make a right to go upstairs, a left, or do you go straight

21 ahead? You can put that down now.

22 A. When you come from the outside you go straight

23 down and you see the lobby. You go straight in into the

24 lobby and then you see the elevator and the stairs.

25 Q. You can put it down. You don't have to make a

1061

1 right when you get into the lobby to get to the stairs?

2 A. I will not turn right. I don't know what you're

3 asking.

4 Q. When people go into the lobby and go to the

5 stairs is it possible that they may not be seen by the

6 person at the reception area?


8 THE COURT: Sustained. Possible. Sustained.

9 Q. From the reception area do the people sit in the

10 reception area have a direct view, if you know, of the

11 stairs around the elevator?

12 A. If they're seated they can't really see directly.

13 Excuse me. If they're seated the elevator and the stairs

14 are not in full view because there's a divider, there's a

15 wall.

16 Q. So is it fair to say that people could go into

17 the building and may not be seen by people in the reception

18 area?


20 THE COURT: Anything is possible. Yes,

21 sustained.

22 Q. Now, you testified that after the men went back

23 into the building this time wearing their shoes that it was

24 at that time that you saw the smoke coming from the top of

25 the building.

1062

1 A. That's right, ma'am, but I already answered that

2 before.

3 Q. Now, after -- withdrawn. Immediately after

4 seeing the smoke is it also your testimony that you went

5 directly to the rooftop taking the stairs?


7 Q. And since you went immediately to the stairs and

8 up to the rooftop you didn't stop to make a report to anyone

9 at that particular time in the reception area, correct?

10 A. It's possible that I may not have stopped taking

11 the time to stop at the receptionist desk to inform them

12 because I was really in haste to go upstairs, because there

13 was a lot of smoke coming out.

14 Q. Right. And if there was a lot of smoke you

15 wanted to get to the rooftop as quickly as possible to

16 investigate?

17 A. I didn't take the stairs all the way up to the

18 roof. From the ground floor I took the elevator to the

19 sixth floor. From the sixth floor to the roof I took the

20 stair case.

21 Q. Now, when you were rushing to get to the rooftop

22 did you, was anyone coming out of the lobby at that time?

23 A. I don't really know if there was any, because I

24 was going to the rooftop.

25 Q. Did you meet anyone coming out while you were

1063

1 going in?

2 A. No, because I was on the elevator.

3 Q. Now, from the time -- your post at the as a

4 security guard is outside the building, correct?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. And you were outside when you saw the smoke?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. So you had to go inside the building to get to

9 the elevator?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. And you had to walk through the lobby, correct?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. My question to you, sir, while you were going

14 from outside through the lobby to the elevator did you meet

15 anyone coming outside?

16 A. I don't remember any more.

17 Q. Did you meet Mina Senario coming outside?

18 A. I didn't meet her.

19 Q. Did you know where she was at that time?

20 A. What I know was she was at the reception.

21 Q. Do you know whether or not she was sitting at her

22 post at that time?

23 A. I don't know if she was sitting or she was seated

24 or she was standing all I know --

25 Q. But do you --

1064


2 THE COURT: Yes, let her finish the answer.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could you repeat the question,

4 please?

5 MS. BARRETT: Could the reporter read back the

6 question please.

7 (Record read)

8 A. I don't know if she was seated.

9 Q. Do you know if she was in that area, whether she

10 was seated or standing?

11 A. I don't really know. All I know is she was in

12 the reception.

13 Q. And the reception area is behind that desk, is

14 behind the desk area, correct?

15 A. Yes, ma'am.

16 Q. Now, you told us that when you got to the top of

17 the building you were able to see from a vantage point the

18 two men inside apartment 603.


20 Q. Now, when you were interviewed by the FBI do you

21 remember telling them that when you first saw the smoke and

22 the two men exited the building afterwards that you

23 immediately stopped Mr. Haddad's companion who you referred

24 to as Naji's friend, and asked him about the smoke.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could we paraphrase the

1065

1 question, please?

2 THE COURT: Read it back.

3 (Record read)

4 A. Yes, that may have been possible.

5 Q. Is that one of those things that you were mixed

6 up about?



9 Q. Now, isn't it a fact that when you spoke with the

10 FBI you always referred to Mr. Haddad's companion as Naji's

11 friend?


13 Q. Now, you testified that you learned this Naji's

14 friend's name to be Ahmed and that you learned this the

15 incident, the night of January 6th at the time of the

16 incident. Is that correct?


18 Q. And in none of your entries that was made in the

19 log book with respect to Naji's friend did you ever use the

20 word Ahmed; is that correct?

21 A. Could you please repeat it?

22 MS. BARRETT: Could you please read back the

23 question.

24 (Record read)


1066

1 Q. Sir, isn't it a fact that you never knew the name

2 Ahmed in relation to the second occupant in apartment 603

3 until you came to America?

4 A. That is not right.

5 Q. Was it at the time that before you were told that

6 you may be coming to America to testify that you decided to

7 use the word Ahmed?

8 A. I -- no, ma'am, I actually learned the name Ahmed

9 when I investigated in that room the night of the 6th of

10 January because he said, because I talked to him.

11 Q. When you spoke to the FBI did you tell him, did

12 you tell the FBI Agent that Naji's occupant, Naji's

13 companion's name was Ahmed?


15 Q. Will the interpreter read paragraph 3 on the

16 first page of 3520A to Mr. Mariano.


18 THE INTERPRETER: Paragraph 3 of the first page?

19 MS. BARRETT: That's correct.


21 THE INTERPRETER: The first line is illegible.

22 MS. BARRETT: Are you reading the third page?

23 It's only three, four lines.

24 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. The third paragraph

25 of?

1067

1 MS. BARRETT: The third paragraph on the first

2 page starting with the word Mariano, and ending with the

3 word friend.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Got it.


6 Q. Now, sir, does that refresh your recollection

7 that when you spoke to the FBI in February of 1994, you told

8 them that you knew the second occupant in apartment 603 only

9 as Naji's friend?

10 A. Yes, in the beginning he was a friend of Naji.

11 Q. Does that refresh your recollection that you

12 never told the FBI that you knew this friend of Naji, you

13 knew his name to be Ahmed?

14 A. It's possible that Ahmed and Murad are one and

15 the same. I said to them Ahmed, but they wrote Murad.

16 Q. So is it your testimony that you said, you

17 described Naji's friend as Ahmed to the FBI?

18 A. It's possible that I said that this friend of

19 Naji was Ahmed, but then they wrote Murad, and I don't

20 remember any more.

21 Q. I'm not asking you about Murad. My question to

22 you, sir, is it your testimony that you told the FBI that

23 Naji friend's name was Ahmed?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Now, you testified that after seeing Naji and his

1068

1 friend from your vantage point in the roof that you then

2 went down to the sixth floor; is that correct?


4 Q. And you said that you asked them permission to go

5 into the room, but that they refused?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. You said both were facing you at that time?


9 Q. Now, sir, isn't it a fact that when you

10 interviewed with the FBI that you told them that after the

11 smoke when you saw the two men exiting the building that you

12 stopped Naji's friend, and that Naji was outside on the

13 street and that was the last time that you saw Naji?

14 A. What do you mean I stopped him? Could you please

15 clarify that? What do you mean I stopped him? Would you

16 please clarify that?

17 Q. You stopped him, you asked him to stop.

18 A. Whom did I stop?

19 Q. You asked him to stop. Do you understand that?

20 A. I didn't stop anyone.

21 Q. I withdraw my question. Did you tell the FBI on

22 February 24, 1995, that after you saw the smoke Naji and his

23 friend came out of the building within a short period of

24 time, you stopped Naji's friend and spoke to him, Naji went

25 ahead outside the street and that was last time you saw

1069

1 Naji?

2 A. That is not right. I saw Naji there.

3 Q. But my question to you, sir, did you tell the FBI

4 that Naji came out right after the smoke and that was the

5 last time you saw him?

6 A. That is not right. What is right is they went

7 out and during that time I could still see him.

8 MS. BARRETT: Will the interpreter read for

9 Mr. Mariano again page 2, the first paragraph.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Page 2, first paragraph.

11 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, I object.


13 Q. Mr. Mariano, I am not asking you what in fact

14 you're saying now happened. I'm asking you, do you remember

15 telling the FBI that you saw Naji and his friend come out of

16 the building after the smoke?

17 Did you tell that to the FBI?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. You told that to the FBI that Naji and his friend

20 came out of the building after the smoke?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. Now, you also stated that after the smoke you

23 went upstairs alone?


25 Q. Did you go upstairs alone after you saw the

1070

1 smoke?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. You didn't tell the FBI that you went upstairs

4 alone, did you?

5 A. Maybe I said that to them. Maybe I forgot to

6 write it. While we were talking, while we were in

7 conversation I don't, I didn't notice if they were writing

8 anything down. We were just in conversation face to face.

9 Q. I'm not asking you if they were writing down or

10 whether or not you noticed that. My question to you, sir,

11 you didn't tell the FBI, did you, that you went upstairs

12 alone?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. In fact, you told them you went upstairs with

15 Naji's friend?

16 A. That's right. There were already firemen

17 upstairs when we went up, when I went up with Ahmed.

18 Q. Sir, when you went upstairs to investigate the

19 smoke at the top of the roof was there firemen upstairs?

20 A. There were none.

21 Q. Sir, isn't it a fact that you told the FBI that

22 the first time you went upstairs to investigate smoke that

23 you went upstairs with Naji's friend?

24 A. That is not right.

25 Q. You did not tell that to the FBI. Is that your

1071

1 testimony?

2 A. I'm not sure if I said that to them. I don't

3 know if they heard that from my mouth.

4 Q. Is it also a fact, sir, that you told the FBI

5 that at that time you went upstairs with Naji friend, Naji

6 was outside of the door, Naji was outside of the building

7 and that was the last time you saw Naji?

8 A. That's right.

9 MS. BARRETT: Your Honor, is this a good time to

10 break?

11 THE COURT: Yes. We'll take a break now. Ladies

12 and gentlemen. Have a nice lunch.

13 (Jury not present)

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1072

1 THE COURT: Ms. Barrett, you indicated that your

2 cross-examination of this witness would take an hour and a

3 half. You are now, yesterday was about 45 minutes, and

4 today a whole morning. Now, I have no idea of where it's

5 going.

6 MS. BARRETT: Your Honor --

7 THE COURT: But it better finish soon. I don't

8 know what you are doing. I'll give you a half hour after

9 lunch. It's either that or we'll be here until the middle

10 of next year.

11 MS. BARRETT: Your Honor, I apologize for the

12 length of the time the cross-examination has taken. However

13 I have to cross-examine Mr. Mariano with his answers that

14 are given to me from the witness stand.

15 THE COURT: I'm well aware of that.



18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1073

1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N

2 2:50 p.m.


4 ROMAN MARIANO, resumed, through the

5 interpreter.

6 (Jury present)

7 MS. BARRETT: May I proceed, your Honor?

8 THE COURT: Please.

9 Q. Mr. Mariano, you testified that the first time

10 you attempted to get into the room after seeing the smoke

11 that the two men would not allow you to enter; is that

12 correct?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. And was that time when you went downstairs and

15 you spoke to the receptionist who called the police?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. Now, sir, after seeing the smoke you went to the

18 rooftop, you went to the sixth floor and now you're going

19 downstairs to the lobby.

20 Was that the first time you were speaking to the

21 receptionist after the smoke?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And that was that receptionist Mina Senario,

24 correct?


1074

1 Q. That was the first time you told her about the

2 smoke condition in 603?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, when you instructed Mina to call the police

5 were you there while she called the police department?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it your testimony that there was no answer

8 when she called?

9 A. Nobody answered, that's true.

10 Q. Now, no one called the fire department at that

11 time, correct?

12 A. Not yet.

13 Q. You testified that you went back upstairs and at

14 this time the two men allowed you in the apartment?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You also testified that after going to the

17 apartment and you saw the smoke that you went back

18 downstairs and instructed Mina to call the fire department?

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. Sir, when you were interviewed by the FBI on the

21 24th of February, 1995, did you tell them that the fire

22 department was called after the men refused to allow you in

23 the apartment?


25 Q. When the firemen arrived you went up to apartment

1075

1 603 with them; is that correct?

2 A. Yes. Yes, ma'am, that's right, I was with the

3 firemen.

4 Q. Was it your testimony also that while you were

5 going up with the firemen that you saw Mr. Ahmed coming down

6 the steps?

7 A. I didn't see him going down as I was going up

8 with the firemen, but I was told that he was headed down.

9 Q. You were told that he was headed down by who?

10 A. A person in room 601.

11 Q. Sir, do you recall testifying a couple of days

12 ago in this case when you were asked a question by?

13 Mr. Snell --

14 MR. SNELL: Page, please?

15 MS. BARRETT: Page 911.

16 Were you asked this question and did you give

17 this answer?

18 "Q. What did you do after the firemen pulled

19 up?

20 "A. Yes, sir. When the firemen arrived I

21 decided I'm going to accompany him to room 603. We then

22 proceeded on to go to room 603. When we got to 603 the room

23 was closed and we couldn't get in, but at that time also I

24 saw Mr. Ahmed and he was going down the direction towards

25 going down and he was going through the stairs."

1076

1 Do you recall being asked that question and

2 giving that answer in this courtroom a couple of days ago?

3 THE INTERPRETER: May the interpreter have a copy

4 of the transcript, please?

5 THE COURT: They are going to give it to the

6 interpreter.

7 THE INTERPRETER: I'd like to know where I should

8 read from.

9 MS. BARRETT: Page 911 first question.

10 THE INTERPRETER: From what number, please?

11 MS. BARRETT: Fourth line.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Until?

13 MS. BARRETT: The tenth line.


15 Q. Sir, do you recall being asked that question in

16 this courtroom and giving that answer?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, you just testified that someone notified you

19 that Mr. Ahmed was running down the stairs. Now, were you

20 lying today or were you lying a couple of days ago?



23 Q. Well, Mr. Mariano, which answer is the truth?


25 THE COURT: Yes, it's the same question.

1077

1 Q. Did you see Mr. Ahmed going downstairs or did

2 someone tell you that he was going downstairs?

3 A. Somebody had told me that Mr. Ahmed was going

4 down, downstairs. I'm not really sure. I don't really

5 know, but I know, I knew that he was headed downstairs.

6 Q. Now, did you go upstairs with the firemen?

7 A. Yes. I did go upstairs with the firemen.

8 Q. And did you go in the apartment with the firemen?

9 A. Yes, ma'am.

10 Q. Who let you in the apartment?

11 A. Nobody did. The door was closed when we got

12 there.

13 Q. Sir, when you were told that Mr. Ahmed had gone

14 downstairs did you see him prior to going upstairs with the

15 firemen?

16 A. No, ma'am.

17 Q. You never ran after him?

18 A. Yes, I ran after him.

19 Q. When?

20 A. When he was headed down I caught up with him down

21 at the lobby.

22 Q. Well, you just said you went upstairs with the

23 firemen and you got into the apartment. At what time did

24 you leave the firemen to go running down to see Mr. Ahmed?


1078

1 THE COURT: Yes.

2 Q. Sir, you just testified that you went upstairs

3 with the firemen. When you were told that Mr. Ahmed went

4 down to the lobby did you see Mr. Ahmed prior to going into

5 the apartment with the firemen?


7 THE COURT: Yes. Just ask the question.

8 Q. You testified, sir, that the firemen went --

9 THE COURT: That's where your problem is. Ask

10 the question.

11 Q. Did you go into the apartment with the firemen

12 alone?


14 THE COURT: No, I'll permit that. Go ahead.

15 A. No, ma'am.

16 Q. Who was with you when you went in the apartment

17 with the firemen?

18 A. Mr. Ahmed, ma'am.

19 Q. Did he let you in the apartment?

20 A. Yes, ma'am.

21 Q. Now, you said you ran down the stairs and you

22 caught up with Mr. Ahmed in the lobby. Was that your

23 testimony?

24 A. Yes, ma'am.

25 Q. Did you have to hold him or did he volunteer to

1079

1 go back upstairs with you?

2 A. He came with me compliantly and that was because

3 I requested him to open the door upstairs.

4 Q. When you spoke to the FBI did you tell them

5 anything about Mr. Ahmed running down the stairs and you had

6 to chase him down there?

7 A. Yes, ma'am.

8 Q. Sir, you read and understand English, don't you?



11 Q. Sir, do you read and understand English?

12 MR. SNELL: I object.

13 THE COURT: What was the question?

14 MS. BARRETT: Do you read and understand English?

15 THE COURT: No, I'll permit that.

16 I think we've been through it already. Go ahead.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you look at the document 3520A the first

19 paragraph and tell me if there is any indication that you

20 told the police that you chased Mr. Ahmed down the steps?


22 THE COURT: It looks once again that there is

23 going to be an offer following it.

24 MS. BARRETT: Well, your Honor I'd like for the

25 interpreter to road to Mr. Murad the first paragraph --

1080

1 THE COURT: I don't know.

2 MS. BARRETT: -- of 3520 and see if it will

3 refresh his recollection.

4 THE COURT: I don't care. Just recognize that

5 you're going to get an offer after it.

6 Q. Is it your testimony --

7 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Objection.

8 Q. Is it your testimony that you told the FBI that

9 you chased Mr. Ahmed down the steps after the firemen came

10 in the building?

11 A. Yes, I said that.

12 Q. After the firemen left did an Officer Fernandez

13 arrive?

14 A. Yes, ma'am.

15 Q. Was Mr. Ahmed still in the apartment?

16 A. He was going up and down.

17 Q. Did you go to the apartment with Officer

18 Fernandez?

19 A. Yes, ma'am.

20 Q. Did someone let you in the apartment at that

21 time?

22 A. Yes, ma'am.

23 Q. Who did?

24 A. Mr. Ahmed.

25 Q. After you and Officer Fernandez was in the

1081

1 apartment did there come a time when you went back

2 downstairs to your post?

3 A. Yes, ma'am.

4 Q. Did Mr. Ahmed subsequently come downstairs?


6 Q. You testified that when Mr. Ahmed came downstairs

7 that you were talking with Officer Fernandez at your post

8 outside; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, ma'am.

10 Q. And it was at that time that he asked Mr. Ahmed

11 to go with him to the police station?

12 A. That's correct, ma'am.

13 Q. Did Mr. Ahmed leave the building before Officer

14 Fernandez did?


16 Q. Now, after Officer Fernandez left he returned

17 with a Capt. Fariscal and a Lt. Tizon; is that correct?


19 Q. And you accompanied the three police officers to

20 apartment 603 you escorted the three police officers to

21 apartment 603?


23 Q. You stated that Mr. Ahmed had already left so how

24 did you get into the apartment?

25 A. We requested operator to lend us the key and she

1082

1 lent it to us.

2 Q. That is still Mina Senario?

3 A. Yes, ma'am.

4 Q. Now, while you were downstairs at your post or

5 any time from the time that the smoke, from the time that

6 you saw the smoke, did you ever see Mr. Ahmed in the lobby

7 other than the time that you stopped him there?

8 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

9 Q. When you stopped him in the lobby was he by

10 himself?

11 A. He had a companion, Mr. Haddad.

12 Q. Was he talking to Mina Senario at that time?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreter hear that

14 question again, please?

15 MS. BARRETT: Withdrawn.

16 Q. Now, the police officers came downstairs, and

17 they instructed you to give them a signal if Ahmed arrived;

18 is that correct?


20 Q. And the purpose of the signal was that, was so

21 that they could know him, they could know Mr. Ahmed when he

22 arrived?


24 Q. But isn't it a fact that Officer Fernandez

25 already knew Mr. Ahmed?

1083


2 again, please?

3 Q. Isn't it a fact that Officer Fernandez already

4 knew Mr. Ahmed, he had already spoken to him?

5 A. I don't really know if they know each other,

6 because it was the two of them who were in conversation.

7 Q. You testified that Officer Fernandez spoke to

8 Mr. Ahmed while you were at your post at the Dona Josefa?

9 A. Yes, ma'am.

10 Q. So Officer Fernandez already met Mr. Ahmed prior

11 to the three officers coming back to the building?

12 A. Yes, That's correct.

13 Q. You testified that Mr. Ahmed came back later and

14 that he came back in a taxi?

15 A. Yes, that's correct, ma'am.

16 Q. And that he asked you for help in moving his

17 things from the room 603?

18 A. I wasn't able to help him with his luggage

19 because he hadn't gone up to his apartment yet.

20 Q. Did he ask you for help?

21 A. Yes, ma'am.

22 Q. When you spoke to the FBI you never told them

23 that you had a conversation with Mr. Ahmed when he came

24 back?

25 A. Yes, ma'am.

1084

1 Q. Is it your testimony that you told that to the

2 FBI?

3 A. Yes, ma'am.

4 Q. Isn't it a fact that you told the FBI that when

5 Mr. Ahmed pulled up in the taxi you quickly ran into the

6 lobby and advised the police officers that he had arrived?

7 A. I didn't run into the lobby.

8 Q. I'd like the interpreter to read the first three

9 lines of paragraph 3 of 3520. Starting with, "at

10 approximately" and ending with the word "arrival," the third

11 full paragraph, the first three lines.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could I have the page, please?

13 MS. BARRETT: Page 3 of 3520A. Could you read

14 that to Mr. Mariano, please.

15 THE INTERPRETER: "At approximately."

16 MS. BARRETT: It starts with "approximately."

17 THE INTERPRETER: Until?

18 MS. BARRETT: Just to the word "arrival."

19 THE INTERPRETER: "Arrival."


21 Q. Sir, after hearing that is it still your

22 testimony that you never told the FBI that when Mr. Ahmed

23 came up in the taxi that you quickly ran into the lobby to

24 advise them that he had arrived?

25 A. It's not true.

1085

1 Q. Now, sir, incidentally, about what time did

2 Mr. Ahmed pull up in the taxi?

3 A. About past 1 o'clock.

4 Q. Can you look in your log book for that date,

5 please: Is there an entry at 1:24 p.m. that says one

6 Pakistani in a taxi?

7 A. 1:20.

8 Q. 1:20?

9 A. Yes, ma'am.

10 Q. You testified that you had a gun.

11 A. Yes, that's true I had a gun.

12 Q. And that when Mr. Ahmed went out of the building

13 Officer Fernandez fired a shot?

14 A. Yes, ma'am.

15 Q. You also testified that you suggested to the

16 officer that you handcuff Mr. Ahmed.


18 Q. Sir, were you a member of the police force in the

19 Philippines in January 7, 1995?

20 A. No, ma'am.

21 Q. There was a lieutenant, there was a captain, and

22 another police officer, and you had to suggest that

23 Mr. Ahmed, suggest to them that Mr. Ahmed was to be

24 handcuffed. Is that your testimony that you did that?

25 A. Yes, ma'am.

1086

1 Q. And then you suggested that you told them that --

2 withdrawn.

3 You testified that they didn't have handcuffs.

4 A. I had no handcuffs. I had rope.

5 Q. Didn't you testify it was a draw string that you

6 had?

7 A. Yes, ma'am.

8 Q. And that you would help them to subdue Mr. Ahmed?

9 A. Yes, ma'am.

10 Q. Again, sir, with respect to your FBI interview

11 did you tell them that you had to help the Philippine police

12 to subdue Mr. Ahmed the morning of January 7th?

13 A. Yes, ma'am.

14 Q. It is your testimony that you told them so?

15 A. Yes, ma'am.

16 Q. Isn't it a fact that you never mentioned anything

17 about that and that you never mentioned anything about your

18 draw string?

19 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Objection, your Honor.


21 Q. Sir, you testified that Mr. Ahmed went upstairs

22 with the police officers?

23 A. Yes, ma'am.

24 Q. And that the next time you saw him was about 5

25 a.m.

1087

1 A. Yes, ma'am.

2 Q. Finally, sir, will you look again one more time

3 at your entry for January 7th early morning in your log

4 book. Is there an indication there that states that one

5 Pakistani left at 5:10 a.m?

6 A. Yes, ma'am.

7 MS. BARRETT: No further questions.

8 CROSS-EXAMINATION

9 BY MR. GREENFIELD:

10 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

11 A. Good afternoon to you, sir.

12 Q. Sir, if I can ask you a few questions with

13 respect to your duties at the Dona Josefa. You've described

14 earlier a process or a function called roving, am I correct?


16 Q. Would it be fair on my part to assume that you

17 did two rovings per eight-hour shift?

18 A. Sometimes two, sometimes three times.

19 Q. Minimum of two?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Among the duties that you perform while you do a

22 roving is you check the roof, each floor, and the perimeter

23 of the building; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. How many exits are there and entrances are there

1088

1 to the Dona Josefa other than the main entrance?

2 A. There's really one exit.

3 Q. Well, did you testify yesterday in response to a

4 question by the judge that among the things you did while

5 roving was to check the exits other than the main door?

6 A. I talked about fire exits.

7 Q. Well, where are those fire exits located, sir?

8 A. There's one in the front and one in the back of

9 the building.

10 Q. Sir, correct me if I'm wrong on this, nobody

11 relieved you when you do the roving. Depending on the hour

12 you may lock the front door, and then go about your roving

13 duties?

14 A. Sometimes, yes, that's right.

15 Q. Sir, on January 7th, the day after this

16 occurrence, did you work?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. Any number of members of the Philippine National

19 Police were present in the building that day, isn't that

20 correct?


22 Q. There were superior officers from the Philippine

23 National Police?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. Chief inspectors?

1089

1 A. Yes, maybe, but I don't know them.

2 Q. Generals from the military, isn't that correct?

3 A. I think so.

4 Q. General Edbane was there, isn't that correct?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Now, sir, during the day of January 7, 1995 did

7 any member of the military or Philippine National Police

8 question you with respect to your observations of January

9 6th?

10 A. Yes, sir, there were some.

11 Q. And were you questioned by these members of the

12 Philippine National Police?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Who questioned you?

15 A. The people that asked me questions were

16 superintendent Bagdilou and General Abdene, they just asked

17 me questions.

18 Q. Well, they didn't ask you questions about how you

19 were feeling, did they?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. They did?

22 A. And there were others.

23 Q. They asked you questions about what occurred the

24 day before, isn't that right?

25 A. Yes.

1090

1 Q. Now, were you asked any questions on January 7th

2 about anything that occurred in November or December of

3 1994?

4 A. No, they did not.

5 Q. Sir, was there also Inspector Florencio Angeles

6 present on January 7, 1995?

7 A. Major Angeles.

8 Q. Major. He was in the Army?

9 A. He's with the Philippine police.

10 Q. Have you ever testified in any proceeding in any

11 cases in the Philippines before testifying in this court

12 today?

13 A. This is my first time.

14 Q. Prior to being employed as a guard at the Dona

15 Josefa how had you been employed before that?

16 A. I had been assigned to hotels, restaurants, and

17 private residences.

18 Q. Were you ever employed by the Philippine Police

19 Department?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Now, sir, yesterday when you were asked some

22 questions with respect to were you employed by any security

23 service agency and you said, yes, you were, and you were

24 asked could you tell the name of that agency.

25 You said you can not tell. Is there a reason why

1091

1 you can not tell, sir?



4 Q. Do you know where Camp Crame is, sir?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Have you been to Camp Crame?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Were you at Camp Crame as a result of this case?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. How many times were you at Camp Crame as a result

11 of this case?

12 A. If I'm right two or three times.

13 Q. When was the first time?

14 A. I don't really remember when that was.

15 Q. Was it within a week or two of this occurrence?

16 A. I know that it was after the incident. I'm not

17 sure exactly when. It could be a month after.

18 Q. Were you interviewed at Camp Crame?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. And you were interviewed on two or three separate

21 occasions?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Were you always interviewed by the same person?

24 A. It was the same person. It was an investigator

25 at Camp Crame.

1092

1 Q. What is that person's name?

2 A. I don't remember what his name is.

3 Q. Was he a police officer?

4 A. Yes, a police officer.

5 Q. Was he a high ranking police officer?

6 A. I don't think so high.

7 Q. And you have no recollection as you sit on the

8 stand as to what his name is. Is that your testimony?

9 A. I really don't know. I didn't even ask him.

10 Q. Well, were you told to visit a specific person

11 when you went to Camp Crame?

12 A. No. They invited me.

13 Q. When you say they invited you, did you go by

14 yourself or did somebody come and pick you up?

15 A. I had a colleague from my office.

16 Q. Say that again?

17 A. I had a colleague from my office.

18 Q. A colleague from your office at the Dona Josefa?

19 A. No. No, sir. It's from the agency.

20 Q. What is that colleague's name?

21 A. Security officer Guyatin.

22 Q. And security officer Guyatin told you that you

23 should go to the Camp Crame?

24 A. No, sir. I was invited.

25 Q. Well, who invited you?

1093

1 A. People with Camp Crame.

2 Q. Did they send you an invitation? Did they phone

3 you? How did you get in invitation to go to Camp Crame?

4 A. I received a letter.

5 Q. Was this before or after -- withdrawn. The first

6 time you went to Camp Crame was it before or after you met

7 with the FBI in February of 1995?

8 A. I don't remember whether it was before or after

9 the interview with the FBI.

10 Q. Well, when you were in Camp Crame did this person

11 whose name you don't remember show you any photographs of

12 people?

13 A. They didn't show me a picture.

14 Q. When for the first time ever did anybody ask you

15 any questions about the occupants of room 404 at the Dona

16 Josefa apartments?

17 A. Could you please repeat it.

18 Q. When for the first time ever did anybody ever ask

19 you a question about the occupants of room 404 at the Dona

20 Josefa apartments?

21 A. I don't really know when but I'm sure someone

22 asked me.

23 Q. Let's try to jog your recollection here.

24 You spoke to the FBI in October of 1995; is that

25 correct? Correct.

1094

1 A. In October? I don't remember anything in

2 October.

3 Q. Didn't you testify on direct examination you went

4 to the United States Embassy in October of 1995 and spoke to

5 Agent Pellegrino?

6 A. That is not right. What I remember is it is not

7 in October.

8 Q. When was it?

9 A. What I remember it was that it was in the month

10 of November.

11 Q. Of 1995?

12 A. Yes, it was 1995.

13 Q. If Agent Pellegrino says it was October he would

14 be wrong, is that what you're saying?


16 THE COURT: Go ahead, answer the question.

17 A. It could be wrong because, he could be wrong

18 because I don't know if there was anything that happened in

19 October, because they checked in in November.

20 Q. They -- we're talking about 1995, sir. In the

21 year 1995, October, November, 1995, were you questioned by

22 Agent Pellegrino in the United States Embassy located in the

23 Philippines?

24 A. I don't remember if it was October, 1995 but they

25 did talk to me in the United States Embassy located in

1095

1 Manilla.

2 Q. At the time you were questioned in the United

3 States Embassy in Manilla, whatever date it was, were you

4 questioned about the occupants of room 404?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Were you shown pictures at that time?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. What pictures were you shown if you recall?

9 A. It seemed like IDs, but the picture was big and

10 there were six pictures on that sheet.

11 Q. Were you shown any photographs of people you

12 believed to be one of the occupants of room 404 in the

13 United States Embassy in 1995?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. And that was done -- withdrawn.

16 Who showed you these photographs?

17 A. I don't remember who exactly but it was

18 Mr. Pellegrino and associates.

19 Q. There was more than Mr. Pellegrino and Agent

20 Besheer there besides yourself?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Who?

23 A. (English) Mr. Snell and Mr. Mike.

24 Q. Anybody else?

25 A. We had a woman interpreter from the Philippines.

1096

1 Q. Before you had this meeting in the embassy in

2 1995, had you been shown any photographs with respect to the

3 people in 404 by the Philippine National Police at Camp

4 Crame?

5 A. None.

6 Q. Now, sir, did the meetings that you had at Camp

7 Crame all occur before you had this meeting in the United

8 States Embassy?

9 A. No, there was not -- no.

10 Q. You testified earlier that you had two or three

11 meetings at Camp Crame with Philippine National Police,

12 correct?


14 Q. You don't remember who questioned you on any one

15 occasion; is that right?


17 Q. During any of those meetings at Camp Crame were

18 you asked one question about the occupants of room 404?


20 THE COURT: I'll permit it. Go ahead.

21 A. No.

22 Q. Would it be fair for me to assume therefore that

23 the first question you were asked about the occupants of

24 room 404 occurred in the United States Embassy sometime

25 toward the end of 1995?

1097

1 A. They also asked me about 1994. Could you please

2 repeat the question?

3 Q. Would it be fair for me to assume that the first

4 time you were questioned about the occupants of room 404 at

5 the Dona Josefa was in the United States Embassy toward the

6 end of the year 1995?


8 Q. And would it also be fair for me to assume that

9 the next time you were questioned about the occupants in

10 room 404 in the Dona Josefa was when you came to the United

11 States?


13 Q. And at no time from January 6, 1995, until the

14 day you arrived in the United States, no member of a

15 Philippine National Police ever asked you one question about

16 the occupants of room 404 at the Dona Josefa apartments?


18 Q. Sir, would you please turn to the November 9,

19 1994 entry for the 3 p.m. to 11 p.m. tour of duty.

20 A. May I open the notebook, please?

21 Q. Well, if you can turn to it any other way. Yes.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you working that day, sir?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. Now, is there an entry for that shift that

1098

1 indicates the people who were registered to room 404 entered

2 and/or left the building on that day?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. What time does it indicate the couple --

5 withdrawn.

6 Does it indicate one person or two people

7 entering and/or leaving the building?

8 A. It says two people left.

9 Q. At what time?

10 A. 5:35 in the afternoon.

11 Q. What time did they enter? What time did they

12 come back?

13 A. I don't really know what time they came. Please

14 wait a minute. 9:20 p.m.

15 Q. Now, does your log from that day also indicate

16 that you did a roving between 5:30 and 9:20?

17 A. It was 6:25 in the evening.

18 Q. Does it indicate what time you came back?

19 A. No.

20 Q. But this is an indication, is there not, as to

21 the first observation you make at 6:50 p.m.; is that right?


23 again?

24 Q. I'll restate it.

25 At 6:50 p.m. somebody did enter the building, is

1099

1 that not right?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. So you went on your break, or you went on your

4 roving at 6:25, and you returned sometime prior to 6:50 p.m.

5 Is that a fair statement?

6 A. It's possible that I had returned to my post much

7 earlier.

8 Q. But you've already testified that you have no

9 recollection how long a roving takes, isn't that right?


11 Q. You got to the roof. How long do you spend on

12 the roof in a normal roving?

13 A. It depends. After you do your inspection up

14 there you go down floor by floor. It depends on how long it

15 takes to do that.

16 Q. Takes up to a half hour, isn't that right?

17 A. Sometimes if you speak with someone upstairs.

18 Q. Sir, will you go to November 10th. The 3 to 11

19 p.m. shift.

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Sir, you testified about this on direct

22 examination. Do you recall?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. It indicates that the occupants of room 404 both

25 left the building at or around 8:10 p.m. that evening; is

1100

1 that right, 8 o'clock in the evening? Does it indicate what

2 time they returned -- withdrawn.

3 Do your records indicate whether they returned

4 while you were on duty?

5 A. During my duty there's no time of return to the

6 building indicated.

7 Q. Sir, if would you go to the November 10, 1994, 7

8 to 1500 hour shift. Were you working that shift, sir?

9 A. Could you please repeat the date?

10 Q. November, I believe it's the 11th, 1994, a

11 Friday. See where I'm pointing, sir? You see that?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Sir, as of that date, November 10-November 11th

14 you had already started making entries during your tour of

15 duty about Mr. and Mrs. Santiago; is that right?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. How did you learn the name Santiago?

18 A. I asked the operator.

19 Q. Is it the usual course of business among the

20 guards that when somebody new moves into the building that

21 you supply the name of the new tenants as you get off your

22 shift?

23 A. We just ask the operator who are occupants of

24 that room.

25 Q. Sir, you've described the female, Mrs. Santiago,

1101

1 Ms. Santiago as a Philippine woman; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. There's no question but that she's a Philippine

4 woman in your mind; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Would you read the description to the jury of the

7 last entry on page 404 of 12:22 p.m.

8 A. At what date, please?

9 Q. The page I just showed to you the last entry.

10 A. It's my handwriting or the handwriting of my

11 colleagues?

12 MR. GREENFIELD: May I approach, your Honor?

13 Q. Could you read this last entry to the jury right

14 here, the last one on the page?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Please read it to the jury?

17 A. Room 404, Mrs. Belgium walking out.

18 Q. Now, as of November 10th or 11th of 1994 would it

19 be a fair statement to say that as far as you were concerned

20 the occupants of the apartment 404 were Mr. and Mrs.

21 Santiago?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And there's no doubt in your mind but that

24 Mrs. Santiago is a native Filipino?

25 A. Yes, sir.

1102

1 Q. Sir, would you turn to November 11, 1994, the

2 2300 to 7 a.m. shift.

3 Sir, looking at the entry does it indicate at or

4 about what time the occupants of room 404 returned on

5 November 11, 1994?

6 A. Excuse me, sir, this is not my handwriting so I

7 can't tell.

8 Q. Did you see the first entry at the top of the

9 page, sir?

10 A. Yes, I can see it.

11 Q. Does it indicate that the first entry deals with

12 the occupants of room 404?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Does it say, lady and man with motor 2350 in?

15 A. I think so maybe.

16 Q. Sir, you worked at the Dona Josefa in October and

17 November and December of 1994. You saw the people who lived

18 in room 404, correct?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Would it be a fair statement on my part that they

21 basically entered either together or separately at or around

22 11 p.m., 12 p.m. midnight or a little after, just about

23 every evening, isn't that correct?

24 A. That could be possible.

25 Q. Isn't it more than possible? You've read this

1103

1 book over the last few days, haven't you?


3 MR. GREENFIELD: I'll go over every entry, your

4 Honor.

5 THE COURT: That I know.

6 MR. GREENFIELD: I'm trying to save a little

7 time.

8 THE COURT: I know, I know.

9 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, it's in evidence.

10 THE COURT: It's not a question of that. No,

11 you've got to be fair to him, too.

12 MR. GREENFIELD: Okay, I'll do it, your Honor.

13 Q. Turn the page to November 12, 1994, sir, go to

14 1200 to 7 a.m. shift.


16 again, please?

17 THE COURT: Turn the page to --

18 MR. GREENFIELD: November 12, 1994, to the 1200

19 to 7 a.m. shift.

20 Q. Are you on that page, sir?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. You see three quarters of the page down, there's

23 an entry at 2410 hours, entering the building, do you see

24 that?

25 A. Could you please point this out to me? It's

1104

1 really hard to decipher.

2 THE WITNESS: (In English) Thank you.

3 MR. GREENFIELD: You're welcome.

4 Q. There is an entry for 2410 hours; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. The man who was working went on duty at 2300

8 hours; is that right?


10 Q. Would it be fair for me to assume that 2410 hours

11 really means 10 minutes after midnight?


13 Q. And does it indicate that at 2410 hours the

14 occupants of room 404, a man and a lady with a motor

15 returned?

16 A. Yes, sir, they returned.

17 Q. Go to the next day, sir, November 13, 1994, the

18 11 p.m. to 7 a.m. shift. You were working that day, were

19 you not?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. At 11:12 p.m. did you make an entry with respect

22 to the occupants of room 404?

23 A. What time, sir? Could you please repeat that?

24 Q. 11:12 p.m.

25 A. Yes, sir.

1105

1 Q. What is that entry?


3 Q. Please do.

4 A. (In English) Room 404 Mr. and Mrs. Santiago with

5 taxi in 11:24 p.m.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Room 404, Mr. and Mrs. Santiago

7 with taxi, 11:24 p.m.

8 Q. Sir, you worked the next day on November 14th

9 also, isn't that correct?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. That was 3 p.m. to 11 p.m.


13 Q. At or about 10:20 p.m. did you make an entry with

14 respect to Mr. and Mrs. Santiago?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. What was that entry?


18 Q. Please do.

19 A. (In English) Mr. and Mrs. Santiago in, 10:20 p.m.

20 Q. They enter the building at 10:20 p.m.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. and Mrs. Santiago in, 10:20

22 p.m.

23 MR. GREENFIELD: I forgot the interpretation, I

24 apologize.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreter hear the

1106

1 next question, please?

2 MR. GREENFIELD: There wasn't one. I was

3 apologizing.

4 THE INTERPRETER: My fault.

5 MR. GREENFIELD: I apologize again.

6 Q. Go to November 16, 1994, the 2300 to 7 a.m.

7 shift. You see that, sir?

8 A. 3 p.m. to 11 p.m.

9 Q. Do you see the 2300 to 7 a.m. tour of duty?

10 A. It's not 11. It's 3 o'clock.

11 Q. Right here. You see the November 16, 2300 to 7

12 a.m. entry, sir?

13 A. Excuse me, sir, this is not my handwriting. It's

14 the handwriting of my colleague, another guard.

15 Q. Did your colleague make an entry with respect to

16 the occupants of room 404 at 2330 hours?

17 A. Yes, sir, there is.

18 Q. Does it indicate the man and lady entered the

19 Dona Josefa building at or about 11:30 p.m. that night?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Sir, could you go to the November 19?

22 A. 1994, 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. tour of duty.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could I have the date, please,

24 sir?

25 MR. GREENFIELD: November 19, 1994.

1107

1 A. What time, sir?

2 Q. Approximately 11:02 a.m. Is there an entry with

3 respect to room 404?

4 A. 12:07 p.m. -- a.m.

5 Q. Sir, is there an entry for November 19, 1994, at

6 or about 11:02 a.m. with respect to room 40?

7 A. Yes, sir, there is, but I can't read it, it's

8 hard to read it because it's not my handwriting.

9 Q. What kind of motorcycle is it that you say the

10 occupant of room 404 drove?

11 A. We call a Scrambler and it was red.

12 Q. It was a model that was manufactured or made in

13 the Philippines?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Now the occupant of room 404 on November 19,

16 1994, was driving a motorcycle, according to this entry?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. Does it give a further description of the

19 motorcycle according to the November 19th entry?

20 A. There is none.

21 Q. Does the entry say 80 C or 800 motorcycle?

22 A. I don't know. I wasn't there in those hours.

23 Q. Now, sir, with respect to that same entry, 11:02,

24 is the person who exited the building that day, does it say

25 Santiago?

1108

1 A. I can't really understand it, I'm sorry.

2 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, will this be a fair

3 time to break for the day?

4 THE COURT: You think you'll be a long time with

5 this witness?

6 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, I think I have about

7 a half hour left.

8 THE COURT: I'm afraid I'm going to ask you folks

9 to stay around today. The witness is a long way from home.

10 MR. GREENFIELD: I understand, your Honor. We'll

11 take a few minutes?

12 THE COURT: Yes, sure.

13 (Recess)


15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1109



3 interpreter.

4 THE COURT: I assume there will be no redirect?

5 MR. SNELL: Just a few short matters, Judge.

6 THE COURT: You may end up doing it Monday.

7 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, following the redirect

8 there are a few questions Mr. Yousef would like to have.

9 They will be very short, not addressed to the log book at

10 all.

11 THE COURT: We'll see.

12 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, in anticipation of

13 the jury coming can I have witness turn to the December 1st

14 tour of duty which he worked.

15 THE COURT: Sure, would you turn the book, same

16 book I assume.

17 MR. GREENFIELD: No, I believe it's the next one.

18 MR. SNELL: It's the same one, Judge.

19 MR. GREENFIELD: No, it's not it's 24.


21

22

23

24

25

1110

1 (Jury present)

2 Q. Sir, in the interest of the end of the day would

3 you please turn to December 1, 1994 and the shift at 1:30

4 p.m. to 11 p.m.

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Are you at that page now, sir?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Now, were you asked some questions on direct

9 examination with respect to these entries, do you recall

10 that?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. You specifically were asked if you recall about

13 an entry at 5:06 p.m. Do you remember that?


15 Q. Was that indicated that Mr. and Mrs. Santiago

16 with motor went out. Do you recall that?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. Now, on that tour of duty after Mr. and Mrs.

19 Santiago went out, did you do any roving according to your

20 entry?

21 A. No, I hadn't done my roving.

22 Q. At 6:15 did you do any roving?

23 MR. GREENFIELD: Withdrawn on that question, your

24 Honor, not 6:15.

25 Q. At 7:10 p.m. did you do a roving?

1111

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. And when is your next entry with respect you

3 return from your roving, what time is your next entry?

4 A. When Mrs. Santiago entered the building.

5 Q. At 7:55 p.m.

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. So you started at 7:10 p.m. and you made an

8 entry, correct?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. And the next entry you make after that is at 7:55

11 p.m., am I correct?

12 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.

13 Q. Now, were the doors locked when you went on this

14 roving?

15 A. At that time, no. It really depends on the

16 security guard whether they lock it or not.

17 Q. Well, you were working on December 1, 1994,

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. And as you sit on the stand now do you have a

21 recollection of whether or not you locked the front door at

22 that time when you made your roving at 7:10 p.m?

23 A. It's possible I did not lock it, but I definitely

24 informed the operator that I was going on my roving.

25 Q. I don't doubt you did. My question to you is do

1112

1 you have a recollection of whether or not you locked it or

2 not?

3 A. I did not lock it.

4 Q. So would it be fair for me to say then from 7:11

5 p.m. when you started your roving until 7:54 p.m. when you

6 returned, or few minutes before that when you returned, you

7 don't know who entered or who left the building?


9 Q. Now, sir, at the end of your tour at

10 approximately 10:30 that night you did another roving; is

11 that right?


13 Q. And you began at 10:30; is that correct?


15 Q. Your relief that day was a gentleman named

16 Morales; is that correct?


18 Q. Now, did you lock the door, if you recall, when

19 you went on your roving at 10:30 p.m.

20 A. No, sir.

21 Q. So once you went at 10:30 p.m. anybody could have

22 entered or left the building without being noted in your

23 book; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. Mr. Morales wasn't there at 10:30, was he?

1113

1 A. No, he wasn't there yet.

2 Q. What time did he arrive, if you remember? If you

3 don't remember, you don't remember.

4 A. I don't remember what time he arrived that night.

5 Q. But certainly somebody was at the door, either

6 Mr. Morales or yourself at 2250 hours, isn't that correct?


8 Q. Well, an entry is made at 2250 hours, is it not,

9 by Mr. Santiago with, motorcycle returned, enters the

10 building, isn't that right?


12 Q. And anybody who came or left the building or came

13 in and reexited the building between 10:31 p.m. and 11:49

14 p.m. there would be no entry because nobody was at the door,

15 isn't that correct?



18 Q. Would it be fair to say that for a period of time

19 from 10:30 p.m. to sometime at 10:50 p.m. or before the door

20 was left unattended?



23 Q. When you left the door at 10:30 p.m. was anybody

24 relieving you?

25 A. I don't remember if there was.

1114

1 Q. Did you just say a moment ago that Mr. Morales

2 was not there when you went on your 10:30 roving?


4 Q. And did you testify throughout this proceeding

5 that you never had a relief when you went on a roving?


7 THE COURT: I don't remember that. Is that true,

8 sir, that you never had a relief when you went on a roving?


10 Q. It will be fair to say that from 10:30 p.m. until

11 Mr. Morales appeared on the door that the front door was

12 left unattended and open?

13 A. Yes, that's possible.

14 Q. Now, sir, the next day, December 2, 1994, you

15 worked a tour of duty from 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. If I'm correct

16 please tell me so.

17 A. What date, sir? Could you please repeat that?

18 Q. December 2d. From 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. were you

19 working?

20 A. This was December 3. December 2, 1994.

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. Sorry.

23 Q. No problem. You testified on direct examination

24 that Mr. Santiago at 12:15 p.m. left the building in a taxi

25 to Belgium. Do you remember testifying to that?

1115

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Had you ever had any conversation was Mr.

3 Santiago?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. Did you have a conversation with him on December

6 2, 1994?



9 Q. Did you have a conversation with him on December

10 2, 1994?

11 A. No, sir.

12 Q. Would it be a fair statement on my part, sir,

13 that motorcycles are a common means of transportation in

14 Manilla?

15 A. Yes, sir, they use it.

16 Q. And traffic is heavy in Manilla, isn't that

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And that's all day and all night it's heavy

20 traffic, isn't that right, sir?

21 A. No, sir. Sometimes.

22 Q. Now, sir, you identified photographs 421A1 and

23 421B1 on direct examination.

24 You remember these photographs?

25 A. Yes, sir.

1116

1 Q. When for the first time did you see those

2 photographs?

3 A. I saw these at the US Embassy.

4 Q. Who showed you those photographs in the US

5 Embassy?

6 A. It's possibly Mr. Pellegrino and other FBI agents

7 there.

8 Q. Is that the first photograph you were ever shown

9 about the person you believe to be the occupant of room 404?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Is that the only photograph that you saw at the

12 Philippines in 1995 of the person you believe to be the

13 occupant of room 404?

14 A. There were others.

15 Q. Were you asked if the person in the photograph

16 was the occupant of room 404?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, I've completed my

19 cross, but I believe I have an application.

20 THE COURT: Yes. I don't know. There is

21 something white on the podium. Is that your notes?

22 MR. GREENFIELD: This, your Honor? No. It's:

23 For best results speak 12 to 18 inches from the microphone.

24 THE COURT: Oh. very short. And I mean very

25 short.

1117

1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. SNELL:

3 Q. Mr. Mariano, I'm placing before you Government

4 Exhibit 25, the log book that contains the entries made by

5 you, according to your testimony, on January 6th and January

6 7th, 1995; is that right?


8 Q. Let me direct your attention, please, sir, to the

9 entry at the bottom of the page that starts with 603. Do

10 you see where I'm pointing?

11 A. (Witness nods head)

12 Q. Would you read that for us, please?

13 A. Yes, sir. (In English) Room 603 Mr. Haji with 1

14 co and 745 p.m., out 10:35 p.m.

15 Q. Now, Mr. Mariano --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Room 603 Mr. Haji with 1 co in

17 745 p.m. out 10:35 p.m.

18 Q. Mr. Mariano, first of all, you said Mr. Haji.

19 Who is Mr. Haji?

20 A. That's him, that's Mr. Haji.

21 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, may the record reflect

22 the witness is pointing at the defendant Ramzi Yousef?

23 THE COURT: Yes.

24 Q. What about the 1 co referred to in that entry.

25 Who is that?

1118

1 A. Mr. Ahmed.

2 Q. And do you see Mr. Ahmed in the courtroom?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Where is he?


6 the witness is pointing at the defendant Abdul Hakim Murad?

7 THE COURT: Yes.

8 Q. On the next page, Mr. Mariano, there is a

9 reference to one Pakistani. Do you see where I'm pointing?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Do you know who that person is, the one

12 Pakistani?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Who is that?

15 A. It's Mr. Ahmed.

16 Q. Is that the same person that you just pointed out

17 a moment ago?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. And when did you first learn that you should be

20 referring to him as Pakistani?

21 A. To my mind he seemed like he could be called

22 Pakistani because he looked like Pakistani. That's why I

23 called him Pakistani.

24 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with him in

25 which he identified himself as having come from Pakistan?

1119

1 MS. BARRETT: Objection, your Honor.

2 THE COURT: No, I'll permit that. Go ahead.

3 A. None, sir.

4 Q. Now, Mr. Mariano, you were asked about

5 motorcycles in Manilla. Do you remember that?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Do you remember how many tenants drove

8 motorcycles, tenants at the Dona Josefa building drove

9 motorcycles during the months of November through January of

10 '94 to '95?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. How many?

13 A. Only one room, sir.

14 Q. Is that person in the courtroom today?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Where is he?

17 A. That's him, Mr. Santiago.


19 the witness is pointing at the defendant Wali Khan Amin

20 Shah?

21 THE COURT: Yes.

22 Anything else?

23 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, at this point I just

24 request that Defendant Shah display his hands to the jury?

25 THE COURT: Some other time. Anything else?

1120

1 MR. SNELL: Nothing further.

2 You said you had three questions, go ahead.

3 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, I have a question

4 beyond the scope if the court will give me permission. I

5 just have one question.

6 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I can't understand you.

7 You talk too close to the microphone.

8 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: I have one question beyond the

9 scope of the recross.

10 THE COURT: Go ahead, ask the question.

11 RECROSS-EXAMINATION


13 Q. Sir, the fire exit which you talked about today,

14 are they located in each floor of the building?

15 A. There are, sir.

16 Q. What do they lead to?

17 A. It originates from the rooftop and it goes down

18 and there is a stairwell, and it goes all the way down to

19 the first floor. The ground floor.

20 Q. When you say the ground floor where is the ground

21 floor? Is that the lobby area or other area?

22 A. Correction. The fire exits lead from the rooftop

23 to the second floor. When you reach the second floor

24 landing there is a set of stairs that you can unfold that

25 could lead down to the ground floor street level.

1121

1 Q. Are the stairs shown in the photograph,

2 Government Exhibit --

3 THE COURT: The question is what exhibit is it?

4 MR. SNELL: 16A, your Honor.

5 Q. Sir, are they shown in this photograph,

6 Government Exhibit 16A in this photograph, Government

7 Exhibit 16A?

8 A. No, you can't see it from this picture.

9 Q. Which side of the building they are located, sir?

10 A. That corner. (indicating)

11 Q. Sir, when you do your roving you notify Mina or

12 whoever is the receptionist; is that correct, sir?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the question be repeated


15 Q. When you do your roving you notify Mina or

16 whoever the receptionist is, is that correct, sir?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. And when you return back you also notify the

19 receptionist; is that correct, sir?

20 A. Yes, sir. That's correct.

21 Q. And the receptionist would make an entry in the

22 log book kept by the receptionist for the time you leave and

23 the time you return back. Is that correct, sir?


25 THE COURT: Yes, this is way outside the scope of

1122

1 anything. Is there anything else?

2 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Yes, your Honor, one moment.

3 THE COURT: Go ahead, ask it.

4 Q. Sir, is there only one stairs that -- withdrawn.

5 There is that only one fire exit that folds down from the

6 building to the ground floor?

7 A. There are two, sir.


9 your Honor.

10 MS. BARRETT: I have a couple, your Honor.

11 RECROSS-EXAMINATION.

12 BY MS. BARRETT:

13 Q. Sir, you just stated that you wrote Pakistani

14 because the person looked like a Pakistani; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Referring to your note on December 26th did you

17 write one Arab because the person looked like an Arab?

18 A. That's possible because for me a Pakistani and an

19 Arab look similar.

20 Q. Could you look in the book for 12/26 and read the

21 entry there? The 12/26 entry. Just read it, would you

22 please. You have it, sir? Would you read the entry in the

23 log?

24 A. Yes, ma'am. (In English ) Room 606 Arab visitor

25 in 4:07 p.m., out 6:30 p.m.

1123

1 Q. That person was alone, correct?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Room 603, one Arab visitor,

3 4:07 p.m. in, out at 6:30 p.m.

4 Q. And that person was alone, correct?

5 A. Yes, ma'am, that's correct.


7 MR. GREENFIELD: No questions.

8 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, have a

9 wonderful weekend. 10 o'clock on Monday.


11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1124


2 THE COURT: It happened this time, but it better

3 not happen again. The reason for the redirect was merely to

4 point out the defendants all over again. I'll sit you down

5 and you won't try any more of this case, you hear me?

6 MR. SNELL: Yes, your Honor.

7 THE COURT: Good.

8 (Adjourned to Monday, June 24, 1996, 10 a.m.)

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1126




22 ALSO PRESENT: Lillie Grant, Paralegal, U.S. Attorney's Office 23 INTERPRETERS: AZIA ISMAIL, HASSAM MOAWAD, MIRA RIVERA

24

25

1127


2 THE COURT: Sit down, please. We have a new

3 witness today.

4 MR. GARCIA: We do, your Honor, Ariel Fernandez.

5 Your Honor, before Mr. Fernandez comes out, through this

6 witness the government will seek to introduce with the

7 Court's permission the two timers that were taken from the

8 apartment and the ID card which has now been translated from

9 the Urdu.

10 MR. UDELL: I didn't hear.

11 MR. GARCIA: I'm sorry. The government will seek

12 to introduce through this witness the two timers taken from

13 603 and the ID card that has now been translated from Urdu.

14 MR. UDELL: Your Honor, I'd like a voir dire

15 without the jury on that.

16 THE COURT: As to whether or not he found them

17 there?

18 MR. UDELL: The connection between the objects

19 and the defendant.

20 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, isn't that also the

21 three items that were only turned over in June of 1996?

22 MR. GARCIA: That's correct, your Honor.

23 THE COURT: When did you get them?

24 MR. GARCIA: Fall of 1995.

25 THE COURT: It's a long time in between. Let me

1128

1 think about it. You're not going do it immediately?

2 MR. GARCIA: No, your Honor.

3 THE COURT: Okay. Who is going to do the

4 translation this time?

5 MR. GARCIA: Mira Rivera, the same woman that was

6 here I believe on Thursday.


8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1129

1 (Jury present)

2 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, you'll remember

3 our translator Ms. Rivera who was here to translate last

4 week or two weeks ago. It's a long time. We're going to

5 have a new witness.

6 All right, young man, will you stand up, please.

7 ARIEL FERNANDEZ,

8 called as a witness by the government,

9 having been duly sworn, through the interpreter,

10 testified as follows:


12 DIRECT EXAMINATION

13 BY MR. GARCIA:

14 Q. Mr. Fernandez, who do you work for?

15 A. I'm a police officer with the western police

16 district in Malate, Manilla.

17 Q. How long have you been a police officer?

18 A. By the coming 29th of June of this year I will be

19 a police officer for the last six years.

20 Q. Where is your precinct for the western district

21 located?

22 A. It's at M. Adriatico in Malate, Manilla.

23 Q. What is the jurisdiction of the western district?

24 A. The city of Manilla.

25 Q. Now, Officer Fernandez, were you working on the

1130 1 night of January 6, 1995?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. What was your assigned shift that night?

4 A. I was assigned to the shift from 11 in the

5 evening until 7 in the morning.

6 Q. Would that be 7 in the morning on January 7th?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Officer, did you report to work as scheduled that

9 night of the 6th?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. What assignment, if any, were you given after you

12 reported to work?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Could you tell us what that assignment was?

15 A. I was dispatched by the desk officer to go to the

16 Josefa building to follow up a report.

17 Q. Did you go to the Josefa building that night?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Approximately what time did you leave your

20 precinct house?

21 A. I left the precinct at about 11:06. I remember

22 because it was in the police blotter.

23 Q. Approximately how long did it take you to get to

24 the Josefa building?

25 A. More or less two minutes.

1131 1 Q. Were you driving or were you on foot?

2 A. I was walking, it was by foot.

3 Q. Now, could you tell us what happened when you

4 first arrived at the Josefa building?

5 A. As I was approaching the building I saw a fire

6 truck leaving the scene so I approached the security guard

7 and introduced myself as a police officer.

8 Q. Do you recall the name of the security guard?

9 A. The name that he gave me was Mariano, and he was

10 the security guard for the building.

11 Q. Where did you have this conversation with the

12 security guard?

13 A. We spoke by the entrance of the building.

14 Q. Could you see any smoke near the entrance of the

15 building at this time?

16 A. No.

17 Q. What did you do after you had the conversation

18 with Mariano?

19 A. We talked about the fire and the smoke that

20 originated from room 603, and he pointed out to me --

21 MR. UDELL: Objection.

22 A. -- an Arab --



25 Q. What did you do after you had the conversation

1132 1 with the security guard?

2 A. He pointed out, Mr. Mariano, security guard,

3 pointed out to me an Arab that lives in apartment 603.

4 Q. And what did you do next?

5 A. I approached the Arab individual and I introduced

6 myself as a police officer, and I said that I was there to

7 investigate the fire that originated from there.

8 Q. Where was this Arab individual when you had this

9 conversation?

10 A. He was about two arms abreast from us.

11 Q. Was that in the area in front of Josefa building?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Could you tell us what was said during your

14 conversation with this Arab individual?

15 A. He introduced himself to me and he said his name

16 was Saeed Ahmed a Sudanese national, and he talked about

17 what happened in that room.

18 Q. What, if anything, did Mr. Ahmed say about what

19 happened in the room?

20 A. He said to me that the smoke came from

21 firecrackers. He said that they had a disassembled several

22 firecrackers and put together the powder and lit it up.

23 Q. First, Officer Fernandez, what room was Saeed

24 Ahmed referring to?

25 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Objection to the form.

1133 1 THE COURT: Room? No. Go ahead read it back.

2 (Record read)

3 A. Room 603.

4 Q. And you also mentioned that he said "they." Did

5 he identify anyone else as being in room 603?

6 A. Yes. Yes, there was.

7 Q. Who did he identify?

8 A. Saeed Ahmed said that this friend of his had

9 invited him to that room and said that that friend had left

10 and left the building going towards Taft Avenue.

11 Q. Could you describe for us what Saeed Ahmed looked

12 like?

13 A. He is an Arab. He had a long nose, five nine

14 perhaps in height, maybe 26 to 27 years of age.

15 Q. Did he have any facial hair?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Officer Fernandez, looking around the courtroom

18 today do you see the person that you knew as Saeed Ahmed?

19 A. Yes, sir. (Pointing)

20 Q. Could you point him out for us, please? Would

21 you describe something that this person you're pointing to

22 is wearing?

23 A. He is the gentleman in the black jacket with a

24 tie, and he has the palm of his hand on his chain.

25 MR. GARCIA: For the record your Honor,

1134 1 identifying the defendant Abdul Hakim Murad?

2 THE COURT: Yes.

3 Q. After you had this conversation with the

4 defendant Murad, what did you do?

5 A. I asked him could I inspect his room, room 603,

6 in the company of the security guard.

7 Q. What did he say?

8 A. He said, of course, why not?

9 Q. What did you do next?

10 A. So we went up the building. We went up the

11 building to room 603 in the company of the security guard.

12 Q. Was the defendant Murad with you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What happened when you got to room 603?

15 A. Saeed Ahmed opened the door and I noticed that

16 the only light that was on was trained on the sink.

17 Q. First, did Mr. Ahmed have a key?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. What did you see when you first entered room 603?

20 A. As you open, as I opened the door I saw that

21 there was one light on above the sink, and by the sink on

22 the kitchen counter was a large cauldron, half of which the

23 bottom part of which was burned, and it was half filled with

24 water.

25 Q. Could you see anything else in the kitchen area?

1135 1 A. Yes, sir. I saw that there was salt spread on

2 the sides of the sink.

3 Q. Could you describe for us what this salt looked

4 like?

5 A. It was white grains and there was a lot of them.

6 Q. Could you smell anything in the apartment at this

7 time?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Could you describe the smell for us?

10 A. It smelled like smoke from burned powder.

11 Q. Could you see anything else in the apartment at

12 this time?

13 A. No. Because the only light that was on was above

14 the sink and the rest of the lights were off.

15 Q. Did you see any firecrackers or firecracker

16 wrappers in the sink area?

17 A. No, sir.

18 Q. After inspecting the sink and kitchen area what

19 did you do next?

20 A. So afterwards I asked, I encouraged all of us to

21 just go down to the lobby, and that's where I continued my

22 interview with him.

23 Q. And when you say "him," you mean Saeed Ahmed?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. What did Saeed Ahmed say to you when you

1136 1 interviewed him downstairs?

2 A. I asked him I would like to invite him to the

3 precinct and asked him also if there were any firecrackers

4 where are the wrapping of these firecrackers? So I asked

5 him if we could invite him and his friend to the precinct,

6 and he said, maybe perhaps 3 o'clock.

7 Q. First, did he make any response when you asked

8 him about the firecracker wrappings?

9 A. He said that the reason for the fire was that

10 they had disassembled firecrackers and then put together all

11 the powder from the firecrackers, and then lit it up for no

12 apparent reason. And he said, when I asked him about the

13 wrapping of these firecrackers, he said that his friend had

14 taken them away with him.

15 Q. Did you agree on a time that Mr. Ahmed would

16 report to the precinct?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. What time was that?

19 A. So I said perhaps 3 o'clock he can go to the

20 precinct.

21 Q. That's 3 in the morning or 3 in the afternoon?

22 A. 3 in the morning.

23 Q. And what did you do after you had this

24 conversation with Saeed Ahmed?

25 A. I went to the precinct.

1137 1 Q. And what happened at the precinct?

2 A. When I arrived at the precinct I related all this

3 to the night duty officer and said perhaps we should go back

4 to the Josefa building.

5 Q. Who was the night duty officer?

6 A. It was Capt. Fariscal.

7 Q. Is that Aida Fariscal?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. What happened next?

10 A. So we all returned to the Josefa building with

11 Lt. Tizon, Capt. Fariscal and myself.

12 Q. What happened when the three of you arrived at

13 the Josefa?

14 A. When we arrived there Mr. Saeed Ahmed was nowhere

15 to be found, and we asked Mr. Mariano, the security guard,

16 to procure a master key.

17 Q. Did he do that?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. What happened after he got the key?

20 A. When Mr. Mariano unlocked the door and turned the

21 lights on we saw that there were boxes stacked on top of

22 each other by the wall, and on the shelf we saw boxes

23 containing parts of gas stoves, and we also saw, I also saw

24 unused cotton.

25 Q. Was this inside room 603?

1138 1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Did you go into the bedroom area of apartment 603

3 at this time?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Could you describe for us what you saw in the

6 bedroom?

7 A. I noticed three tables there. There are two

8 small tables and to the right and the left of the head of

9 the bed, and by the foot of the bed was another table.

10 Q. Beginning with the table at the foot of the bed

11 could you describe for us any items you saw there?

12 A. I saw on that table I saw timers that could be

13 set to --


15 THE COURT: No.

16 A. On that table I saw timers and I, that could be

17 set to go off, with a alarm to go off at one minute. I saw

18 Bibles, I saw crucifixes, pictures of the Pope, and garments

19 worn by priests.

20 Q. Do you recall the manufacturer of the timers?

21 A. What I remember was the trademark was Casio.

22 Q. Could you tell us what, if anything, you observed

23 on the tables near the head of the bed?

24 A. I saw that on the right table there were small

25 wrist watches to which two wires would be attached and there

1139 1 were several of those, and on the other table I saw more

2 wrist watches and soldering gun.

3 Q. Could you describe for us what this soldering gun

4 looked like?

5 A. It looked like a ball pen on. One side of was,

6 was that part that you insert in an electric socket and the

7 other side was pointed.

8 Q. What did you do after you inspected the room?

9 A. Capt. Fariscal instructed us to all proceed

10 downstairs and definitely not to touch anything because it

11 was dangerous.

12 Q. Did anyone take anything from room 603 at this

13 time?

14 A. What I remember was Capt. Fariscal took out an

15 empty plastic container.

16 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, could I just ask the

17 interpreter to speak a little closer to the microphone?

18 THE COURT: Sure.

19 MR. KULCSAR: It trails off at the end.

20 A. What I remember was Capt. Fariscal left the room

21 with an empty plastic container.

22 Q. What happened when you returned to the lobby

23 area?

24 A. I told Mariano that should Saeed Ahmed return he

25 should lock the door.

1140 1 Q. Did there come a time when Saeed Ahmed did return

2 to the Josefa?

3 A. Yes, sir. When Mariano went towards the entrance

4 he immediately said that he could see Saeed Ahmed coming

5 back. So Saeed Ahmed entered the building. As he entered I

6 put my arm around his shoulders and I said to him: So you

7 were trying to make a fool out of us. You were actually

8 making bombs upstairs.

9 Q. Did Saeed Ahmed make any reply?

10 A. He said that he was just invited into the

11 building by his friend.


13 A. I was about to take him to the police station, so

14 he was between, he was positioned between two of us, and as

15 we were exiting from the lobby of the Josefa building, we

16 had just reached the door, he broke into a run.

17 Q. Who was with you when you were walking out with

18 Saeed Ahmed?

19 A. It was myself, Saeed Ahmed and Mariano.

20 Q. What happened after Saeed Ahmed, the defendant

21 Murad, began to run?

22 A. He ran and I chased after him and I fired a

23 warning shot into the air, and as I fired that shot he

24 tripped over the flower pot and fell.

25 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, with the Court's

1141 1 permission may I he show the witness Government Exhibit 26D

2 already in evidence?

3 THE COURT: Sure.

4 MR. GARCIA: May I put up the easel, your Honor?

5 THE COURT: Sure.

6 MR. GARCIA: May I hand the witness a pointer,

7 your Honor?

8 THE COURT: Sure.

9 Q. Officer Fernandez, looking at Government Exhibit

10 26D could you show us where you were approximately when

11 defendant Murad began to run?

12 A. I was here in this position (indicating) with

13 Saeed Ahmed and the guard. So Mr. Saeed Ahmed started

14 running and I chased after him. When I got there I fired a

15 warning shot in the air. When he fell over the flower bed

16 he tripped and fell. So I went around and caught up with

17 him. I trained a gun, I aimed a gun at him and I said that

18 he shouldn't move or else I would be forced to fire.

19 So he was flat on his stomach, and it was a good

20 thing that the guard was right behind me. And I had the

21 guard tie his hands behind him.

22 Q. When you say the guard, you mean Mariano?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. After Mariano tied the defendant Murad's hands

25 what did you do?

1142 1 A. There was a taxi, an FX taxi waiting and with the

2 help of two civilians we put him in the cab.

3 Q. Who got in the cab with Saeed Ahmed?

4 A. We were the three police officers went in, Capt.

5 Fariscal, Lt. Tizon and myself.

6 Q. Did the civilians also get in the cab?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Where did the cab go?

9 A. We ordered him to go to the precinct.

10 Q. What happened when the cab arrived at the

11 precinct?

12 A. I recorded the incident in the police blotter and

13 I took the key from the desk officer, headed towards the

14 cell, took the rope around his wrists, and locked him up.

15 Q. Did the defendant Murad say anything to you when

16 you placed him in the cell?


18 THE COURT: No, I'll permit it.

19 A. Actually I told him, I'm doing my job, and he

20 smiled.

21 Q. What did you do after you put the defendant Murad

22 in the cell at the precinct?

23 A. I searched for a phone. I needed to contact my

24 partner who wasn't there at that time.

25 Q. Did you find a phone in the precinct?

1143 1 A. No.

2 Q. What did you do?

3 A. I left the precinct and I looked for a free

4 telephone in the stores nearby.

5 Q. Approximately how long were you gone from the

6 precinct at this time?

7 A. About an hour.

8 Q. After that hour did you return to the precinct?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. When you returned was the defendant Murad there?

11 A. When I returned to the precinct the desk officer

12 and I spoke together, and I went to the Josefa building.

13 Q. When you returned to the precinct after trying to

14 make the call, was Murad still at the precinct?

15 A. No, he was not.

16 Q. After you had the conversation with the desk

17 officer what did you do?

18 A. Then I proceeded to the Josefa building.

19 Q. What happened when you got to the Josefa

20 building?

21 A. When I got to the Josefa building the people

22 there were Capt. Fariscal, officers from the bomb disposal

23 unit, and Saeed Ahmed.

24 Q. Where were they when you got there?

25 A. They were in the room and in the bedroom and I

1144 1 helped in the search.

2 Q. Now, you say they were in the room. Is that

3 apartment 603?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. And you say the search. What did you do at this

6 time?

7 A. The bomb disposal officers found something and

8 they put it on top of the table.

9 Q. Were these bomb disposal personnel from the

10 western district?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. After assisting in this inspection what did you

13 do?

14 A. I was instructed by the station commander to go

15 down to the lobby and wait for the Generals.

16 Q. First, who is the station commander?

17 A. Major Francisco Bautista.

18 Q. Did there come a time when Generals did arrive at

19 that Josefa building?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Who was that?

22 A. Gen. Ebdane and Gen. Canson.

23 Q. First, Gen. Ebdane, what is his command?

24 A. Gen. Ebdane is a district commander.

25 Q. Is that district the western district?

1145 1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. And is he a member of the Philippine National

3 Police?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. And next, Gen. Canson, what is his command?

6 A. He's the overall district commander.

7 Q. Does that also include the western district?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Is Gen. Canson a member of the Philippine

10 National Police?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. After the arrival of the generals what did you

13 do?

14 A. So I accompanied them upstairs and they

15 interviewed Saeed Ahmed.

16 Q. During this time did you again have any

17 conversation with Saeed Ahmed?

18 A. He was being interviewed by the two Generals and

19 after a while he stood up, and he faced me and he said. I

20 have $2,000 here with me. If you so wish, it's yours. Just

21 take me, just get me out of here.

22 Q. Who was responsible for guarding the defendant

23 Murad, Saeed Ahmed, at this time?

24 A. Myself.

25 Q. What response, if any, did you make to his

1146 1 statement?

2 A. I said, I'm sorry, I can't accept this, because

3 you're my prisoner.

4 Q. Approximately how long did you stay in apartment

5 603 at this time?

6 A. I left it at about 4, and I headed to the

7 precinct so I could fulfill my other duties.

8 Q. When you say 4, is that 4 in the morning or 4 in

9 the afternoon?


11 Q. Did there come a time when you returned to the

12 Josefa building on January 7th?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Approximately what time did you return?

15 A. About 7.

16 Q. 7 in the morning or 7 at night?


18 Q. Was the defendant Murad at the Josefa building

19 when you returned?


21 Q. Was there any members of your command, western

22 district, in room 603 when you returned?

23 A. Yes, sir. My colleagues at station 9.

24 Q. Approximately how long did you remain in

25 apartment 603 at this time?

1147 1 A. Until about 2 in the afternoon.

2 Q. During this time that you were in room 603 did

3 you observe anyone bringing anything into the apartment?

4 A. No, I don't remember anything.

5 Q. Officer Fernandez, did the government pay your

6 travel expenses to come here to testify?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. And is the United States government paying your

9 salary while you're away from work on this case?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Officer, did you receive a certificate from the

12 US government commending your work on this case?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Did you receive any money in connection with

15 receiving that certificate?

16 A. None at all.

17 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, perhaps this would be a

18 convenient time to break?

19 THE COURT: You want to talk about the other.

20 All right, we'll take an early morning break.


22

23

24

25

1148 1 (Jury not present)

2 THE COURT: All right, step down.

3 (Witness and interpreter not present)

4 THE COURT: You want to get into what was found

5 in the apartment; is that correct?

6 MR. GARCIA: That's correct, your Honor, the

7 three timers.

8 THE COURT: Unfortunately, by not explaining the

9 three items, put it that way, until basically you started

10 the trial, you've given up the opportunity. Now, that is

11 not to say that it may not come about that you'll have an

12 opportunity, but not now.

13 MR. GARCIA: I understand, your Honor.

14 THE COURT: How much more do you have with this

15 witness?

16 MR. GARCIA: That was the only thing, your Honor.

17 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, before we break, may

18 I ask for a copy of the certificate of commendation. We've

19 never seen it.

20 MR. GARCIA: We don't have it, your Honor.

21 THE COURT: The commendation says: You're a

22 wonderful guy.

23 MR. GREENFIELD: You know, like in the Police

24 Department always give them these wonderful commendations

25 that have nothing to do with the facts and circumstances of

1149 1 the case. So if there was one I would like to read a copy

2 of it, issued by the same government, I assume as is

3 prosecuting the case.

4 THE COURT: Well, that may be. But you know as

5 well as I do it's just a certificate of appreciation:

6 You're a wonderful guy. All right. Take ten.

7 MR. GREENFIELD: Thank you, your Honor.

8 (Recess) continued on next page)


10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1150 1 ARIEL FERNANDEZ resumed, through the interpreter.


3 CROSS-EXAMINATION


5 Q. Good morning, sir. Sir, was it your testimony

6 today that you work as a police officer?

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could you speak a little

8 clearer for the interpreter?

9 THE COURT: Was it your testimony today that you

10 work as a police officer?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Do you work for the Filipino National Police,

13 sir?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. And is that the government agency?

16 A. Yes, of the Philippines.

17 Q. What does your duties consist of as a police

18 officer?

19 A. To safeguard the nation and to arrest whoever

20 breaks the law.

21 Q. Now, sir, did you receive any training to become

22 a police officer?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Will you tell us, please, what training you

25 received?

1151 1 A. I am a college graduate and I took the police

2 basic course.

3 Q. Now, sir, when you work during your duty do you

4 wear a uniform?

5 A. No, because I am a detective.

6 Q. Do you carry a gun with you, sir?

7 THE INTERPRETER: For the interpreter again,

8 please?

9 THE COURT: Do you carry a gun with you?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Do you carry any handcuffs with you?

12 A. No, sir.

13 Q. Did you receive any training whatsoever

14 concerning explosives?

15 THE COURT: Did you receive any training

16 whatsoever concerning explosives?

17 A. No, sir.

18 Q. Now, sir, one of your duties is to respond to

19 incidents; am I correct, sir?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could you repeat that, again,

21 please?

22 THE COURT: One of your duties is to respond to

23 incidents; is that correct, sir?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. And how would the people or the public report

1152 1 these incidents to your police station?

2 A. Often.

3 Q. How would they report these incidents to your

4 police station?

5 A. The desk officer gives it to us.

6 Q. Is there any telephone number for the police

7 station where they can reach you?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. And this telephone is also you can use it --

10 withdrawn.

11 How many telephones do you have in the police

12 station, sir?

13 A. There's one local and direct line.

14 Q. Now, sir, was it your testimony that there was a

15 time on January 7th, 1995, that you were asked to respond to

16 an incident concerning Josefa Apartments?

17 A. Yes, sir, the 6th of January.

18 Q. Now, prior to going to the building what was your

19 understanding of the reason for going to the Josefa

20 building?

21 A. What I know was that there was a fire.

22 Q. Now, were you notified about the size of the

23 fire?

24 A. No, sir.

25 Q. Were you notified anything about the damages that

1153 1 may have been caused by the fire?

2 A. No, sir.

3 Q. And there was a time in which you arrived at the

4 Josefa building, am I correct, sir?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. And what time was that, sir?

7 A. It's in the police blotter, 11:06.

8 Q. That's the time when you arrived at the Josefa

9 building?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Now, there was a time in which you entered room

12 number 603, am I correct, sir?

13 A. Yes, sir, the first visit Saeed Ahmed.

14 Q. There was a time in which you say you noticed

15 some salt and a burn, am I correct, sir?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. Sir, was there any burn marks on the kitchen area

18 in which you say you saw it at that night?

19 A. The burn marks that I noticed were the cauldron

20 itself.

21 Q. Would you describe the size of the burn marks,

22 sir?

23 A. It's the burned part was half, the bottom half of

24 the pot.

25 Q. Was that area damaged by the burn marks when the

1154 1 fire was associated?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreter hear this

3 again, please?

4 Q. Was there any noticeable damage that you saw in

5 that area?

6 A. I didn't notice anything.

7 Q. Did you -- withdrawn.

8 Did you wipe away the burn marks or did you

9 remove any of the salt which you said you saw that evening,

10 sir?

11 A. No, sir.

12 Q. Now, sir, there was a second time in which you

13 say you went to the apartment and you saw some items. Am I

14 correct, sir?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. And did you participate in the search, in the

17 second time with the lieutenant and the captain?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. For how long did you stay during the search for

20 the second time, sir?

21 A. For that second visit during the search perhaps

22 15 to 30 minutes.

23 Q. During the search did you open any drawers or

24 closets in the building of the apartment?

25 A. No, I don't remember.

1155 1 Q. Did you see any bags in the room, sir?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 Q. Sir, would you describe what you saw in the

4 living area in room 603 for the second time?

5 A. I noticed many boxes stacked up one on top of

6 each other by the divider that divides the living room from

7 the bedroom.

8 Q. And is that all that you saw in the living room

9 area, sir?

10 A. I remember that.

11 Q. Sir, would you explain also what you saw in the

12 bedroom area?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Would you explain, sir, what you saw in the

15 bedroom area?

16 A. In the bedroom I noticed that there were three

17 tables. Two were by the head of the bed and one was at the

18 foot of the bed. On that table I saw several timers,

19 several crucifixes, Bibles, habits, or garments of priests,

20 and pictures of the Pope.

21 Q. Now, sir, was there a time in which you returned

22 during that evening to the precinct which you came from?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Did you prepare a report pertaining to the events

25 or the thing which you saw in apartment 603?

1156 1 A. I didn't, when I returned I didn't make a report

2 any more because, because the higher headquarters took over.

3 Q. Did you prepare any report at all during that

4 evening or the next morning concerning the events which took

5 place on that evening or the next morning, sir?

6 A. No, not at all, because the higher headquarters

7 took over the case. So I had nothing else to do.

8 Q. Now, sir, was it your testimony also that there

9 was a time in which you entered room 603 and you saw a team

10 of the disposal, explosive disposal unit?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. What time was that, sir?

13 A. I don't really remember. Maybe around 3.

14 Q. 3 o'clock in the morning of January 7th?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Now, sir, was it your testimony today that during

17 the time in which you spent in room number 603 with the bomb

18 disposal unit you saw them bringing out two items and

19 putting them on the table?

20 A. I don't remember that.

21 Q. Do you remember the bomb disposal unit team

22 finding anything at all in room number 603?

23 A. Yes, sir.


25 A. What I know is that the bomb disposal unit found

1157 1 an object and it was wrapped in plastic, and because it was

2 not my duty I didn't meddle with it.

3 Q. Were you in the room during the time in which

4 they found these objects?

5 A. I don't really remember because it's not my job.

6 Q. Now, sir, how many hours did you spend in room

7 number 603, if you recall, from the first time in which you

8 entered room number 603 on the evening of January 6, 1995,

9 until the afternoon of January 7, 1995?

10 A. I know I went there for the first time. Then I

11 went back the second time, but in totality I don't remember.

12 Q. What was the last time in which you were in room

13 number 603?

14 A. The last time I visited apartment 603, Saeed

15 Ahmed was gone and the only people left there were elements

16 from station 9.

17 Q. And when was the last time when you left room

18 number 603?

19 A. About 2 in the afternoon and I was relieved by my

20 colleague from station 9.


22 your Honor.

23 CROSS-EXAMINATION

24 BY MR. UDELL:

25 Q. Mr. Fernandez, you get to the Dona Josefa about

1158 1 eight minutes after 11 on January 6th; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. You don't see any smoke?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. You don't see any fire?

6 A. No, sir.

7 Q. And you see the fire department has left; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. But you're not a fireman. You're a police

11 detective; is that correct?

12 A. I'm a police officer.

13 Q. And you were there to investigate a possible

14 police matter; is that right?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. And according to you Mr. Murad who was the

17 resident or who had some connection to room 603 is standing

18 right there outside with Mr. Mariano; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. And in spite of the fact that there is no fire

21 and there is no smoke you, pursuant to your duty as an

22 investigator, want to go upstairs and see what's going on in

23 room 603; is that right?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. And Murad he says, fine, come on up, you can look

1159 1 around; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. And in fact, he goes up with you?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. It wasn't that you and Mariano went up the steps

6 by yourself and Murad was already inside the apartment. He

7 went up with you; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. And he let you in with a key; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. It wasn't that you and Mariano had to stop at the

12 desk someplace and get a key. He let you in with the key,

13 right?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. And you and Mariano go inside?

16 A. Mr. Saeed Ahmed entered with us.

17 Q. The three of you are now inside the apartment,

18 right?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. And you look and there's a light on in the

21 kitchen area, correct?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. And you look by the sink and what did you see,

24 you see sulphur and you see burns and you see what looks

25 like salt; is that correct?

1160 1 A. I don't know if that was sulphur. All I know it

2 was that I saw salts, granules of salt.

3 Q. Granules of salt, you said a lot of them and burn

4 marks. Is that correct?

5 A. What was burned was the lower half of the

6 cauldron.

7 Q. And it smells, right?

8 A. And it smelled of burned powder.

9 Q. Like powder burning; is that correct? And

10 although you heard talk about firecrackers, you didn't see

11 fuses or cut up firecrackers at that time, did you?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. And when you were investigating you were

14 investigating a police matter; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. And Murad gave you permission to come up there

17 and look around, took you into the room, right?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. And you're telling us that at no time after you

20 see this salt and smell this stuff, did you or Mariano think

21 to flick on a light switch and see what's going on in the

22 apartment? Is that your testimony?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. At no time did you or Mariano go into the bedroom

25 or into the living room to see what else might be in the

1161 1 apartment?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Now, this was maybe 11:15 at night?

4 A. Maybe.

5 Q. And you told this guy who you describe as an Arab

6 that you wanted to investigate further, and he could have

7 three hours and 45 minutes to find his way down to the

8 precinct, is that what you told him?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. At that time you didn't see any timers; is that

11 correct?


13 again?

14 Q. At that time you did not see any timers?

15 A. At that time, no.

16 Q. You did not see any watches?

17 A. No, sir.

18 Q. You did not see any sulphur?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You did not see any cotton?

21 A. No, sir.

22 Q. You did not see any wire? You did not see any --

23 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, if the witness could

24 answer the question.

25 THE COURT: Let the witness answer.

1162 1 A. No, sir, at that first visit.

2 Q. And you didn't even get this man's name at that

3 time; is that correct?

4 A. I asked his name when the security guard, Mr.

5 Mariano, pointed him out to me before we went up.

6 Q. Well, isn't it a fact that you didn't ask his

7 name until after you placed him under arrest?

8 A. All I can say is that when I first arrived there

9 and Mr. Mariano pointed out this Arab individual to me I

10 introduced myself and I asked him his name.

11 Q. And he told you his name was Saeed at that time,

12 Saeed Ahmed. Is that your testimony?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Do you remember talking to the FBI, Agents

15 Pellegrino and Egan on March 23, 1995?

16 A. Yes, sir. I know it was around March, but I'm

17 not sure of the date.

18 Q. But you know you talked to them, right?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. And you remember giving them a detailed account

21 of what had occurred on January 6th, January 7th?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. And you remember describing the scenario in the

24 order in which it occurred, the events as they happened?

25 A. Yes, sir.

1163 1 Q. And you, of course, as a police detective

2 understand the importance of being as accurate as possible

3 in giving these details; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Now, the one thing we are agreed on I believe is

6 that Capt. Fariscal and Lt. Tizon were not at the Dona

7 Josefa the first time you went up to the room, right?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. They were not there when you claimed that this

10 gentleman identified himself for the first time as Saeed

11 Ahmed, right?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Do you remember telling the FBI on or about March

14 23, 1995, that they stopped Murad in the lobby and

15 introduced him to Fariscal and Tizon and that Murad --

16 excuse me -- and that Murad identified himself at this time

17 as Saeed Ahmed?

18 MR. GARCIA: Objection.



21 MR. UDELL: May the witness be shown a copy of

22 3521-A, if one is available. I have one.

23 Would you, sir, kindly look -- you read English;

24 is that correct?

25 A. Yes, sir.

1164 1 Q. Would you kindly look at the page 2, the third

2 full paragraph starting with line 3 with the word

3 "Fernandez," and ending toward the end of line 5 with the

4 words "Saeed Ahmed."

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could you repeat that again?

6 Q. Page 2, first full paragraph starting at line 3

7 the first word on the line and toward the end of line 5

8 starting with the word, "Saeed Ahmed."

9 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, I really don't

10 understand this for the interpreter.

11 MR. UDELL: May I approach, please?

12 THE COURT: Yes.


14 Q. Now, does that refresh your recollection that you

15 told the FBI in March of 1995, that the individual from 603

16 identified himself as Saeed Ahmed for the first time when he

17 was surrounded by you and the captain and the Lt. Tizon?

18 A. All I can say again is that he introduced himself

19 to me for the first time when security guard Mariano pointed

20 him out to me while we were at the lobby.

21 Q. Again, looking at those three lines, does that

22 refresh your recollection that you told the FBI on March 23,

23 1995, that Murad identified himself as Saeed Ahmed for the

24 first time when he was surrounded by you and the captain and

25 the Lt. Tizon.

1165 1 THE COURT: I assume that you're offering this

2 document?

3 MR. UDELL: Pardon me, your Honor?

4 THE COURT: I assume you're offering this

5 document?

6 MR. UDELL: I'm not offering this document. I am

7 seeking to refresh the witness's recollection.

8 THE COURT: Okay. The question is you have

9 represented that this document says something, all right?

10 Read the document again. You, Mr. Udell, read the document

11 again.

12 MR. UDELL: I am reading it.

13 THE COURT: All right. Now, with that in mind,

14 ask your question.

15 Q. Do you again recollect telling the FBI on March

16 23rd that when you and Lt. Tizon and Capt. Fariscal

17 surrounded Murad you told them Murad identified himself at

18 this time as Saeed Ahmed?


20 THE COURT: I'll permit it, go ahead.

21 A. All I say again is that Mr. Saeed Ahmed

22 introduced himself to me when I introduced myself to him the

23 very first time when I responded to the first call.

24 Q. Would you look on page 1, paragraph 4 of the

25 document. Would you read from paragraph 4 the first three

1166 1 lines ending with the word "apartment."


3 Is that the account you gave the FBI with regard

4 to your first meeting Murad downstairs?


6 THE COURT: Is there an offer going with this? I

7 don't know.

8 Q. Sir, isn't it a fact that you never heard the

9 name Saeed Ahmed until after Murad was being arrested?

10 A. I would like to respectfully repeat that during

11 my first visit I approached security guard Mariano.

12 Henceforth, he pointed out this Arab individual to me. I

13 introduced myself as a police officer and then he introduced

14 himself as Saeed Ahmed.

15 Q. Of course being a police officer, knowing the

16 importance of this, you would have told that to the FBI; is

17 that right?



20 A. It's my job.

21 Q. Isn't it a fact that all you told the FBI about

22 your first meeting Murad was that you approached him, this

23 person who you described as Iranian-looking and questioned

24 him? Isn't that a fact?


1167 1 THE COURT: No, I'll permit it, but I assume this

2 goes eventually with an offer. Go ahead, answer it.

3 A. What I told the agent was that he looked like an

4 Arab. I told them that I approached the security guard. He

5 pointed this individual to me. I introduced myself as a

6 police officer, and he introduced himself to me likewise,

7 and he said that he was Sudanese.

8 Q. Isn't it a fact, sir, that you never told the

9 agents the name Saeed Ahmed until after Murad was being

10 arrested by you and the two other police officers?



13 A. I would like to respectfully repeat that during

14 my first visit to the Josefa I approached the security

15 guard, Mr. Mariano. Henceforth, he pointed out this Arab

16 individual to me. I approached him, introduced myself as a

17 police officer, and he introduced himself as Mr. Saeed

18 Ahmed.

19 Q. As a detective, sir, if someone mentions a name

20 to you, do you feel a duty to write that name in your

21 report?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. So if you mentioned the name to Agent Pellegrino

24 you would expect that he would write it in his report?


1168 1 THE COURT: I'll permit it, go ahead.

2 A. What I did was I recounted to them what had

3 happened.

4 Q. Sir, there came a time when you went back to the

5 precinct; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. But you didn't take Murad back to the precinct,

8 did you?

9 A. My first return, my first return to the police

10 station I did not.

11 Q. You said you saw salt, you said you saw burn

12 mark, you said the room smelled from something burning. Is

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. The precinct was a two-minute walk from the

16 hotel; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. Were you standing right outside the hotel the

19 last time you saw Murad the first time; is that correct?

20 A. During my first visit.

21 Q. He came downstairs with you after you walked into

22 the room?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. You were standing outside by Mr. Mariano's post.

25 Correct?

1169 1 A. During my first visit I approached the security

2 guard, Mr. Mariano. I introduced myself to him and he

3 pointed out this Arab to me.

4 Q. I ask that you --

5 A. I introduced myself, I introduced myself as a

6 police officer and, henceforth, he introduced himself to me

7 as Mr. Saeed Ahmed.

8 MR. UDELL: May the question be read back so the

9 witness can answer the question I asked?

10 THE COURT: Sure.

11 (Record read)

12 A. The first visit?

13 Q. This was about 11:30, right?

14 A. About 11 at night?

15 Q. When you told Mr. Murad that he had three and a

16 half hours to come to the precinct, is that correct?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. You told him to go find his friend or wait for

19 his friend and come to the precinct, make sure you get there

20 before 3 in the morning; is that right?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. This is a person who was in a room where you say

23 that had salt, burn marks and it smelled like things were

24 burning; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, sir.

1170 1 Q. Now, you didn't wait three and a half hours you

2 and the captain and Lt. Tizon, did you, to come back to the

3 Dona Josefa?

4 A. No, we did not.

5 Q. In fact you walked to the precinct, you told them

6 what happened, you came right back. Is that fair to say?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. And that would have been about 15 minutes, 15 to

9 20 minutes, perhaps?

10 A. Maybe.

11 Q. And was Murad still outside at that time?


13 Q. Well, he still had plenty of time. He still had

14 about three hours to get to the precinct; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. And you had told him that you wanted him to bring

17 his friend, also, is that correct, or the resident?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. And no one else was in the room when you and

20 Mariano and Mr. Murad were up in the room the first time; is

21 that correct?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. So you're not surprised that no one's in the room

24 now since you sent him to look for his friend, correct?

25 A. We knew that -- I'm sorry -- we found out that

1171 1 Mr. Murad was not in that room. That's why we took

2 permission from the security guard, Mr. Mariano, to enter

3 the room.

4 Q. Well, when you left the room the first time Murad

5 went down with you; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. And when you left him he was standing in the

8 street; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. And when you left the room no one was in the

11 room; is that right, you, Mariano and Murad left the room,

12 no one was in there?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. And as far as you know no one had been in the

15 room between the time you left and the time you came back?



18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. And no one was in the room when you came in, when

20 you and the lieutenant and the captain went into the room;

21 is that correct?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Murad wasn't in the room, right?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. And now you claim that you saw watches, cotton,

1172 1 wire, pipe, all the things that were not there as far as you

2 knew twenty minutes before; is that correct?


4 THE COURT: No, I'll permit it, go ahead and

5 answer it.

6 A. I can say that I saw these items during my second

7 visit when I was in the company of the security guard, Mr.

8 Mariano, Capt. Fariscal and Lt. Tizon.

9 Q. Wasn't the security guard, Mr. Mariano, with you

10 for the first visit also?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Didn't you deliberately ask Murad to go look for

13 his friend so the room would be empty in the first visit and

14 second visit?

15 A. No, sir. It is our standard operating procedure

16 that after we are dispatched and we respond to a call that

17 we should report what we encountered to a higher authority.

18 Q. Is it your standard operating procedure when

19 you're with someone in a room to ask them to go downstairs

20 or to ask them to go look for their friend?

21 A. During that first visit this was just an

22 inspection, and I did not have a search warrant -- I'm

23 sorry -- we did not have a search warrant, so we had no

24 right to shake up the place, look through his stuff.

25 Q. You say you saw things the second time that you

1173 1 didn't see the first time; is that right?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Now, when you say a search warrant you mean a

4 search warrant is something that gives you the right to look

5 like into the drawers or look under beds or look in closets,

6 things like that; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Eventually, you went and got a search warrant,

9 right, the next day or the day after?

10 A. I don't know really about this.

11 Q. You didn't have a search warrant the first time

12 you entered with Mariano, and you didn't have a search

13 warrant the second time when you went with the captain and

14 Lt. Tizon; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. And without a search warrant you can't look

17 inside of drawers and under beds and open closets and such

18 as that. Is that correct?

19 A. We got permission from the security guard

20 Mariano.

21 Q. Permission from the security guard, is that what

22 you said?

23 A. We requested Mr. Mariano, the security guard, if

24 we may turn on the lights and looks at the boxes, look at

25 the surrounding.

1174 1 Q. But you found things the second time that you

2 didn't find the first time because Mariano gave you

3 permission to open the light?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. You told us before that when you first spoke to

6 Murad the first time you met him, when you now claim he

7 identified himself as Saeed Ahmed, that he gave you

8 permission to come upstairs and look around?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Yet Mariano was upstairs too, with Murad when

11 Murad gave you permission to come upstairs and look around;

12 is that correct?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. And when you describe Mariano as a security guard

15 it's your understanding that he was in charge of security at

16 the Dona Josefa apartment? That's his job, right?

17 A. I don't know the particular policy over security

18 guards in that building.

19 Q. Seeing what you saw in the sink or what you told

20 us you saw in the sink, neither you, a detective, or

21 Mariano, a security guard, saw fit to open the lights the

22 first time you went up there?

23 A. At that time I sensed danger and so I didn't ask

24 them to turn on the lights. I just said, let's just go

25 down.

1175 1 Q. You sensed danger so you gave him three and a

2 half hours to report to the precinct. Is that your

3 testimony?

4 A. What I did was I reported it to my higher

5 officer, and it was my higher officer who instructed us all

6 to go back to the site.

7 Q. After you went back to the site there came a time

8 when you saw Murad again; is that correct?

9 THE COURT: 12:29, a good point to break? Ladies

10 and gentlemen, we'll take our lunch break.



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14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1176 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N

2 2:00 p.m.


4 THE COURT: Be seated, please.

5 ARIEL FERNANDEZ, resumed, through the

6 interpreter.

7 (Jury present)


9 BY MR. UDELL:

10 Q. Mr. Fernandez, after you and Capt. Fariscal and

11 Lt. Tizon came down from the room you then waited in the

12 lobby for the individual you'd seen in the room before; is

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Now, this was still long before 3 o'clock; is

16 that right?


18 Q. Would it be fair to say it was sometime between

19 about 12:30 and 1?


21 Q. Be that as it may, you know it was before 3

22 o'clock; is that correct?

23 A. I don't remember. I'm not sure.

24 Q. Well, is it fair to say that the deadline for

25 this person to come to the precinct per your request had not

1177 1 passed?

2 A. I'm not sure.

3 Q. And is it also fair to say that you waited with

4 the other police officers in the lobby of the hotel for this

5 individual to return, correct?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. And there came a time when he actually did

8 return; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. This was an individual who you as a police

11 officer had, whose room you as a police officer had examined

12 that very evening; is that correct?

13 A. That's what he said.

14 Q. And you had directed him to come to the precinct

15 at some later time for some further investigation; is that

16 correct?

17 A. That's what he said to me in the beginning.

18 Q. And did in fact this individual voluntarily come

19 back to the hotel as far as you could see?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Well, did you testify on direct examination that

22 you told the security guard Roman to lock the door after he

23 came, after he got into the lobby?

24 A. During our second visit.

25 Q. After your second visit, after you and the

1178 1 captain and the lieutenant came down from the room, did you

2 then wait, did you and the two other officers wait in the

3 lobby for this individual to return?

4 A. Yes, during our second visit.

5 Q. And this individual did not appear to you to be a

6 Philippine native, did he?

7 A. As I said before when I introduced myself to him

8 as a police officer he said that he was a Sudanese national.

9 Q. And this person who was not a Philippine native

10 appeared to you to come voluntarily back into the hotel at

11 sometime after you and the two other officers came down from

12 the room; is that correct?


14 Q. Well, did you see him coming back into the hotel?

15 A. No, I don't know.

16 Q. Did you testify earlier this morning that you

17 confronted him in the hotel when he came back?

18 A. Yes. When this individual returned I met him

19 because as we had intended to he was supposed to meet us at

20 3 o'clock, and we just returned to the building on orders of

21 my higher authority.

22 Q. You met him in the lobby of the hotel; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. In fact, it was your expectation that he would

1179 1 return and that's why you told Mr. Mariano to lock the door

2 after he comes into the lobby, is that correct?

3 A. When we, we had inspected the room for the second

4 time, and we found equipment and devices connected with the

5 manufacturing of bombs --

6 MR. UDELL: Your Honor, may I ask that he respond

7 to the question?

8 THE COURT: Read the question back, please.

9 (Record read)

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. You don't know if you instructed Mr. Mariano to

12 lock the door after he arrived, after this gentleman you

13 spoke to earlier, arrived in the lobby?

14 A. I didn't know if this individual was going to

15 return or not, but in case he did, I, should he have

16 returned, I had, that's why I gave instructions to the

17 security guard, Mr. Mariano, to lock the door if he returns.

18 Q. And did he return?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. And did you give these instructions to the

21 security guard just moments before he in fact returned?

22 A. So my instruction was since we discovered all

23 these devices in the room --

24 MR. UDELL: Your Honor, again, may I have the

25 question read back with an instruction?

1180 1 THE COURT: Please do.

2 (Record read)

3 A. After our second inspection of the room I told

4 the security guard, Mr. Mariano, that if this individual

5 returned he should lock the door.

6 Q. Mr. Fernandez, do you speak English?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Now, again, did you give the instruction to the

9 security guard just moments before the individual returned,

10 yes or no?

11 A. I would like to respectfully repeat that on our

12 second inspection I gave instructions to the security guard,

13 Mr. Mariano, to kindly lock the door, the front door, should

14 this individual return to the building.

15 Q. And I would like to respectfully ask you again,

16 did just a few moments pass between the time that you gave

17 these instructions and the time this individual came through

18 the door?

19 A. We went down after we inspected the site that

20 second time, that second visit. We went down and I told the

21 guard, the security guard, Mr. Mariano, that should this

22 individual return to the building that he should please lock

23 the front door.

24 Q. How much time passed between the time you told

25 him that and the time the individual came in through the

1181 1 front door?

2 A. On our second visit after we conducted the

3 inspection upstairs we went down. We got down and I

4 instructed the security guard, Mr. Mariano, to please close

5 the door, lock the door, in case this individual returned.

6 MR. UDELL: May I have the question read back to

7 the witness?

8 THE COURT: Sure.

9 (Record read)


11 Q. Did there come a time when he came through the

12 front door?

13 A. Yes, he returned.

14 Q. And did you confront him in the lobby?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you recall about how far he was from the front

17 door when you confronted him in the lobby?

18 A. He had entered the lobby, let's say about five

19 arms abreast, from the door. That's when I approached him

20 and I put my arm around his shoulders.

21 Q. Does arms abreast mean something like this

22 (indicating) holding your hands spread out?

23 A. Perhaps.

24 MR. UDELL: Could we take judicial notice what

25 I'm doing is five times about 15 or 20 feet?

1182 1 THE COURT: It's five times your height, whatever

2 your height is. 30 feet.

3 Q. You say he eventually ran out that door; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. He went out the same door that he came in?

7 A. When he was, when he was standing between the two

8 of us, Mr. Mariano, and I, and I had one arm around his

9 shoulders.

10 Q. Did he run out the same door that he came in?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Was Mr. Mariano the same security guard that you

13 went upstairs with earlier?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Was Mr. Mariano the same security guard whose

16 permission you asked to search the room to open the lights

17 when you went up the second time?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. And is that the same guy who you told to lock the

20 door after the individual came into the lobby?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. And you told him to lock the same -- you just

23 said he ran out the same door that he came in from; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes, sir.

1183 1 Q. So he ran through the very same door that you had

2 just told Mr. Mariano moments before to lock. Is that your

3 testimony?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. You indicated earlier this morning that you had a

6 conversation with this individual in the lobby after he came

7 in when the captain and the lieutenant were there; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. And you told us that what you said to, you told

11 us, you put your arm around him and you said: You know you

12 made a fool out of us. You were actually making bombs up

13 there. Right?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. And you remember that conversation even now

16 almost a year and a half later; is that right?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. And you remember it was in the lobby before the

19 running through the door, right?


21 interpreter?

22 Q. This conversation occurred in the lobby before he

23 ran through door of this Mariano lobby?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. And do you recall talking to the FBI just two

1184 1 months after this incident about what occurred?


3 Q. You don't remember talking to the FBI at all?

4 A. Yes, I remember that, but I don't remember the

5 dates.

6 Q. But you know you talked to them sometime after,

7 right?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. This conversation about, you made a fool of us,

10 you're actually making bombs up there, was important enough

11 that you remember it even now, is that right?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Isn't it a fact, sir, you never mentioned this

14 conversation to the FBI when you spoke to them?

15 A. All I can say is I told the truth to the FBI.

16 Q. Is it not a fact, sir, that when you spoke to the

17 FBI about what was said in the lobby of the hotel you never

18 mentioned this conversation?

19 A. All I can say is I told the truth to the FBI in

20 my interview.

21 Q. Isn't it a fact, sir, that you never mentioned

22 this conversation because it never occurred?

23 A. All I can say is I told the truth and all the

24 details I remembered to the FBI.

25 Q. Again, sir, is it not a fact that you never

1185 1 mentioned this conversation to the FBI, yes or no?

2 A. All I can say is I told the FBI all the details.

3 Q. This conversation never was mentioned because

4 this conversation never occurred, is that correct?


6 THE COURT: No, I'll permit it. Go ahead,

7 answer.

8 A. All I can say is I related all the details to the

9 FBI.

10 Q. Is it not a fact, sir, that all you told the only

11 dialect, dialogue you mentioned recounting to the FBI that

12 occurred inside the lobby was the individual you were

13 arresting identifying himself as Saeed Ahmed? That's all

14 you told the FBI was said, period?

15 A. All I said to the FBI was first, talked to them

16 about the meeting with Saeed Ahmed at that time he

17 introduced himself as Saeed Ahmed after I said I was a

18 police officer. Secondly, I told them, then I told them

19 about the time when we arrested -- I'm sorry. Then I told

20 him about the time that we returned to the building, and

21 thirdly, I told them about when I arrested this individual

22 when this person ran away, when this person, when I fired

23 the warning shot, and when I finally put him in the cell.

24 Q. So there is no fourthly? There is no telling the

25 FBI, I said to him, you made a fool out of us were actually

1186 1 making bombs up there? That never occurred, is that not

2 true, sir?

3 A. I told details about what happened to the FBI

4 from the beginning to the end.

5 Q. Did you tell the FBI that you said to this

6 individual in the lobby who you were arresting, you make a

7 fool out of us. You were actually making bombs up there.

8 Did you tell them that?

9 A. I told, I recounted details of what had happened

10 to the FBI. I told them what I did with Mr. Murad and I

11 told them about how I put him in the cell. What I did was

12 clear.

13 Q. Have you ever testified in any cases in the

14 Philippines about regarding an arrest you made?

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could this be repeated for the


17 Q. Have you testified in any court in the

18 Philippines?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Well, when you testify in court in the

21 Philippines is this the way you respond to questions?



24 Q. There came a time when you say the individual ran

25 out the door; is that correct?

1187 1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. And you chased him?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. And Mariano chased him?

5 A. I'm not really sure, but I know he was right

6 behind me.

7 Q. And was Mariano yelling, shoot him, or anything

8 like that.


10 again?

11 Q. Did you hear Mariano yelling, shoot him, shoot

12 him?

13 A. No, sir.

14 Q. Did Mariano have a gun?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Now, there came a time when you fire a warning

17 shot; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. And then he stopped, he was on the floor, right?

20 A. No, sir, he tripped and fell. I believe because

21 he was, he was startled that I had shot him.

22 Q. Well, this was still long before the deadline

23 that you gave him to voluntarily come to the precinct so

24 it's fair to say he's startled that you're now firing shots

25 at him. Would that be fair to say?

1188 1 MR. UDELL: I'll withdraw the question.

2 THE COURT: Good.

3 Q. There came a time when he was on the floor,

4 right?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. And you got him surrounded; is that correct? You

7 Capt. Fariscal, Lt. Tizon, and Mariano; is that correct?

8 A. It was just myself and Mr. Mariano that was at

9 the scene where he fell.

10 Q. Well, did the lieutenant and the captain come out

11 after a while?

12 A. I don't remember. I was just looking at Saeed

13 Ahmed.

14 Q. Well, now he's arrested. Did there come a time

15 when you contemplated handcuffing him?

16 A. Yes, sir. But I didn't have any handcuffs on

17 myself, so I asked Mr. Mariano to tie his hands behind him.

18 Q. You didn't have any handcuffs?

19 A. At that time, because I was in haste to respond

20 to a fire, a fire, I didn't bring handcuffs.

21 Q. You said you went to the fire. There was no

22 fire. You made an appointment for the guy to come there at

23 3 o'clock. You went back to the precinct, told your

24 superiors. You said it was a dangerous situation and you

25 went back there without handcuffs. Is that what you're

1189 1 saying?


3 again.

4 MR. GARCIA: Object.

5 MR. UDELL: I'll do it again.

6 Q. Is it your testimony that when you went back with

7 your superiors you went back without handcuffs?

8 A. I don't know if the other officials had handcuffs

9 but I did not.

10 Q. So Lt. Tizon did not offer a pair of handcuffs to

11 you at that time?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Capt. Fariscal did not offer a pair of handcuffs

14 to you at that time; is that correct?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Well, you told us before that when you went back

17 to the precinct you perceived a dangerous situation and

18 you're telling us that you, the captain and the lieutenant

19 all come back and nobody remembered to bring a pair of

20 handcuffs?

21 A. I don't really know, but I know I didn't have

22 handcuffs.

23 Q. So what happened was Mariano took like a rope off

24 his pants or something, and that's what he tied him up with?

25 A. I don't really know. All I can say is I had my

1190 1 gun aimed at him. I was concentrating on him, so I asked

2 him to tie his hands behind himself.

3 Q. Did there come a time when you took him to the

4 precinct?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Now, when you arrest somebody do you search them?

7 A. At that particular instance I listed him in the

8 police blotter, I removed the rope tied around his arms, and

9 then I put him in the cell.

10 Q. Is it a regular practice for the Philippine

11 Police Department when making an arrest to search a person

12 that's being arrested to make sure they don't have any

13 weapons them on them?

14 A. Yes, we search them.

15 Q. And when you search them do you record or

16 inventory the things you take from them?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. So if you take, for instance, money from someone

19 you count the money and you inventory it; is that correct?

20 A. We don't really, we don't meddle with the money

21 that they have. That remains with them.

22 Q. Well --

23 A. Especially, and other valuables.

24 Q. If there is something that may be considered as

25 evidence do you take that in inventory?

1191 1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. If you take papers that might be considered

3 evidence, do you take that in inventory?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Would you take keys, for instance, that might be

6 considered as evidence, do you take it in inventory?

7 A. Keys are not evidence.

8 Q. Well, can you perceive of a situation where keys

9 might be evidence?

10 A. The keys are not evidence.

11 Q. There came a time when you saw the individual you

12 first saw earlier that evening back in room 603; is that

13 correct?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could I hear that again for the

15 interpreter?

16 Q. You saw the individual again back in room 603?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. And this was after you arrested him in front of

19 Capt. Fariscal and Lt. Tizon, right?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. And this was after the two Generals showed up and

22 assumed the investigation?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. So I'm clear, Generals are higher than a captain

25 in the Philippine police?

1192 1 THE COURT: The answer is?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. And it's your testimony that after the captain

4 saw him being arrested, and the lieutenant saw him being

5 arrested, and the general saw him being arrested he offered

6 you money to let him go?

7 A. When we were in room 603 he was interviewed by

8 two Generals and after a while he stood up and he offered me

9 $2,000 in exchange for his freedom.

10 Q. After the Generals interviewed him?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, you made the arrest in this case, is that

13 correct; is this correct?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Did you ever testify in any court in the

16 Philippines between January 7th and April 12th about this

17 case?

18 A. This case was turned over to higher officials

19 like the Generals because I'm just a patrolman.

20 Q. So this case stayed with the police; is that

21 correct?

22 A. I don't really know because the case was turned

23 over to higher officials.

24 Q. This case never got to any court; is that

25 correct?

1193 1 A. I don't really know because the case was turned

2 over to Generals.

3 Q. Was January 7th when you saw the man in the room

4 603, was that the last time you ever seen him in person?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. So after that the higher police took over; is

7 that right?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. And they decided what to do with him?


11 MR. UDELL: I'll withdraw the question.

12 THE COURT: Okay.

13 MR. UDELL: I have nothing further, your Honor.

14 THE COURT: David.




18 A. Good afternoon, sir.

19 Q. After January 7th and before the first time you

20 met with the FBI, were you ever interviewed by any of the

21 higher authorities in the Philippine National Police about

22 what you saw on January 6th and January 7, 1995?

23 A. No, sir.

24 Q. Were you during that time period interviewed by

25 any prosecutors representing the government in the

1194 1 Philippines?

2 A. No, sir.

3 Q. Would it be fair for me to assume that the first

4 time anybody asked you any questions about what happened in

5 the Dona Josefa after January 7, 1995, was when you spoke

6 with FBI agents sometime in March or so of 1995?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. At any time between January 7, 1995, and the day

9 you arrived in the United States were you ever questioned by

10 any member of the Philippine National Police with respect to

11 what occurred at the Dona Josefa in January of 1995?

12 A. No, sir.

13 Q. Have you ever been invited or otherwise to Camp

14 Crame for interview with respect to what occurred in

15 January, 1995, by members of the Philippine National Police?

16 A. We were invited. I don't know exactly when.

17 Maybe April.

18 Q. When you say, "we were invited " who were "we"

19 and who invited you?

20 A. We were invited by the intelligence command of

21 Camp Crame. By "we" I mean Capt. Fariscal, Lt. Tizon and

22 myself.

23 Q. Did you go to Camp Crame?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. Did you speak with anybody?

1195 1 A. We were awarded by the US government a plaque

2 lauding us for what we had done with counter measures

3 against terrorism.

4 Q. Other than receiving the plaque from the United

5 States government, presented to you by the Philippine

6 government; is that correct --

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. -- other than that one proceeding did anybody in

9 the Philippine National Police ever ask you: Ariel, what

10 happened that night?

11 A. No, sir.

12 Q. Now, sir, correct me if I'm wrong. I believe on

13 three occasions that evening you went to the apartment at

14 the Dona Josefa, apartment 603; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. The first time approximately 11:10 p.m.

17 A. 11:06.

18 Q. How long were you there for the first time?

19 A. I don't really remember exactly, but maybe an

20 hour and a half.

21 Q. So you were in the apartment the first time for

22 one and a half hours. Is that your testimony?

23 A. The interview I conducted with Saeed Ahmed

24 outside the building was where most of that time was spent,

25 but the time I spent in the room was short.

1196 1 Q. You went to the police station after you

2 conducted an interview and came back with the captain and

3 the lieutenant.

4 How long were you in the police station?

5 A. After I reported about the incident Capt.

6 Fariscal instructed us all to return to the site.

7 Q. How long were you there in the police station?

8 A. Just a short while.

9 Q. After you're there a short while you come back to

10 the apartment. There comes a third time when you come back

11 to the apartment; is that correct?

12 A. After Saeed Ahmed was arrested and I called on

13 the phone, and we talked, I talked to the desk officer,

14 that's when we returned. That was the third time.

15 Q. And is that the time the bomb disposal unit is in

16 the apartment?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. Now, you testified on direct examination that the

19 bomb disposal unit was there when you arrived; is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes, a third visit.

22 Q. Now, sir, correct me if I'm wrong, other than

23 that one interview sometime in the early 1995 with the FBI,

24 you were never questioned by anybody with respect to this

25 case until you got to the United States a few weeks ago or

1197 1 so; is that right?


3 Q. Did you not testify a few moments ago that the

4 Philippine police never questioned you about this incident,

5 correct?

6 A. What I know it was the CIC the intelligence

7 command that talked with me after the incident.

8 Q. After January 7, 1995, did you speak with anybody

9 about the facts of what occurred the day before, other than

10 with the FBI sometime in 1995?

11 A. No, sir.

12 Q. And you only spoke to the FBI one time in the

13 Philippines; is that correct?


15 Q. Well, where did this interview with the FBI take

16 place?

17 A. At the US Embassy.

18 Q. How many times did you meet with FBI agents in

19 the United States Embassy in the Philippines?

20 A. I don't remember. Maybe two or so.

21 Q. When was the first one?


23 Q. Now, sir, isn't it a fact that the first

24 interview was approximately two months or so after this

25 incident occurred?

1198 1 A. Maybe two or three months after the incident.

2 Q. Do you have a copy of 3521A at the bench?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.

4 Q. Would you refer to the bottom of the first page,

5 left-hand side and see if that document refreshes your

6 recollection as to what date you were interviewed by the FBI

7 in the United States Embassy?


9 A. I don't really remember. Maybe it happened on

10 the second or third month after the incident.

11 Q. Right, sir. Isn't it a fact when you were first

12 interviewed by the FBI you told them you returned to the

13 apartment the third time to await the bomb disposal unit to

14 arrive?

15 A. What I know is on my third visit to the apartment

16 the bomb disposal unit was there.

17 Q. That's your present testimony; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Now, we're talking in June of 1996, about

20 something that happened in January of 1995, correct?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Two or three months after this incident occurred

23 you had an interview with the FBI in the United States

24 Embassy, correct?

25 A. Yes, sir.

1199 1 Q. And were you asked about what occurred in the

2 apartment that day, January of 1995?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. And the fact is back then when you were talking

5 to the FBI you told them you were waiting in the apartment

6 for the bomb disposal unit to arrive, isn't that a fact?

7 A. What I did was that on my third visit to the

8 apartment the bomb disposal unit was already there.

9 Q. Sir, I'm asking you what you told the FBI back in

10 1995 within the first two months of this occurrence? Isn't

11 it a fact you told the FBI that you got there before the

12 bomb disposal unit?

13 A. What happened on my third visit to the apartment

14 the bomb disposal unit was already there.

15 Q. Sir, look at page 3 of 3521A, the first

16 paragraph.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, page 3?

18 MR. GREENFIELD: Page 3.

19 THE INTERPRETER: What section, please?

20 Q. Do you read English, sir?

21 THE COURT: Start at the top line.


23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Take that document to your hands. Read it to

25 yourself, the top paragraph.

1200 1 A. Yes, I've read it.

2 Q. Sir, my question to you, back in March of 1995,

3 isn't it a fact you told the FBI you got to the apartment

4 before the disposal unit did?

5 A. Part of prior to my third visit to the apartment

6 I had spoken to the desk officer, and when I got there the

7 bomb disposal unit was there.

8 Q. You hear my question?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. You hear me ask, did you read that document and

11 did you tell the FBI in March of 1995 that you arrived

12 first?

13 A. Prior to my third visit I spoke to the desk

14 officer, and when I arrived at the apartment the bomb

15 disposal unit was there.

16 THE COURT: The question is not what happened

17 that night. The question is what did you tell the FBI?

18 THE WITNESS: What I told the FBI was this.

19 After I called, after I had put Saeed Ahmed in his cell, I

20 looked for a phone. I went out to make a call and I looked

21 around to the stores outside, and before I returned to the

22 apartment I had a talk with the desk officer. I proceeded

23 to the apartment. When I got there the bomb disposal unit

24 was there.

25 Q. Sir, if the FBI say otherwise would they be

1201 1 incorrect?


3 Q. If they say otherwise would they be wrong?


5 Q. If they say otherwise would they be lying?



8 Q. Now, sir, as a police officer would it be fair

9 for me to assume that during the course of your training

10 before going on to the Philippine National Police force you

11 took a course in report writing?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. And you were taught about the importance of

14 report writing?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. And the importance for accuracy of report

17 writing?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Did you prepare a report with respect to your

20 observations on January 6th and January 7th, 1995?

21 A. No, sir.

22 Q. Do the rules and regulations -- withdrawn.

23 Does the police manual for the Philippine

24 National Police require you to file a report as an

25 investigating officer?

1202 1 A. There is, sir.

2 Q. Did somebody tell you not to file a report on

3 January 6th or 7th, 1995?

4 A. I was ordered by my higher authorities to keep

5 quiet on the matter and not to write a report.

6 Q. And your higher authorities ordered you under no

7 circumstances to reduce your observations to writing; is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. If you had reduced your observations to writing

11 within hours of the occurrence that would have been a pretty

12 accurate report, wouldn't it have been?


14 again, please?

15 MR. GARCIA: I object to the question.

16 MR. GREENFIELD: You want me to restate it? I'll

17 restate it.

18 THE COURT: It sounds like argument. There is an

19 objection. Restate it.

20 Q. Who ordered you not to file a report in the

21 regular course of duty within the National Police

22 Department?

23 A. The Generals.

24 Q. Is that after you were offered the two thousand

25 dollar bribe in their presence?

1203 1 A. After a few days.

2 Q. Well, doesn't the manual require you to file

3 report at the end of your tour of duty?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. At the end of your tour of duty on January 7th

6 you did not file a report, is that your testimony?

7 A. No, I did not.

8 Q. Nobody had ordered you not to file a report until

9 a few days later, isn't that correct?

10 A. Two or three days after the incident I received

11 orders from the Generals not to file a report, but that

12 night itself, Capt. Fariscal and I and the other officers in

13 conversation we decided we should not file a report.

14 Q. So yourself, a captain and a lieutenant; is that

15 correct, decided on your own not to file a report?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. So if I were to ask the captain for his report,

18 her report, the lieutenant for his, they wouldn't have any

19 reports either?

20 MR. GARCIA: Objection, your Honor.

21 THE COURT: Yes. It's one of those, if he knows.

22 Do you know whether anybody else has a report? That's the

23 question.

24 THE WITNESS: No, sir.

25 Q. Is that a usual occurrence for members of the

1204 1 force to get together and decide to violate the procedures

2 of the department and not file a report?

3 A. In a special situation that happens like this.

4 Q. But at the end of your tour of duty this is just

5 like any other case, wasn't it?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Yet somehow, some way, you and your brother

8 officers and sisters officers decided that you weren't going

9 to file a report to this case, correct?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. And then a few days later the Generals decided

12 that no report should be filed; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. And all we're left with 18 months later is what

15 you say your recollection is, isn't that correct?



18 MR. GREENFIELD: No further questions.

19 THE COURT: Okay, ladies and gentlemen, we'll

20 take our break now.

21 (Recess)


23

24

25


2 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, one brief moment.

3 THE COURT: Go ahead.

4 MR. GREENFIELD: Earlier I had indicated to the

5 Court off the record that I was going to make an application

6 and this is the first opportunity to put it on the record.

7 There was a reference in direct examination and

8 brought out in cross to items found in the apartment dealing

9 with crucifixes, the Pope and clothing of priests. Some of

10 it was brought out on direct, some of it on

11 cross-examination.

12 I have an idea where that may be going, but I had

13 made a motion early before the trial asking that all this

14 matter be excluded that may have related to anything

15 regarding the Pope, and the government said they would not

16 elicit that in their direct case, if I recall correctly.

17 And it was elicited. So, again, I'm renewing the motion for

18 a severance.

19 MR. GARCIA: Just one thing, your Honor, the

20 cross that Mr. Greenfield just did I'm surprised it didn't

21 elicit the Pope, because the reason the reports weren't

22 filed were because of the items that were found in the

23 apartment. The government is not planning to elicit any

24 attempt on the Pope's life or anything of that nature which

25 I understood was Mr. Greenfield's application.

1206 1 MR. GREENFIELD: My cross elicited that, your

2 Honor? I don't understand. How did my cross bring that

3 out?

4 MR. GARCIA: Your cross was aimed at the fact

5 that there were no reports filed in this case, and that was

6 an unusual occurrence the fact that procedures were not

7 followed. He said there were special circumstances.

8 MR. GREENFIELD: I never heard that, your Honor.

9 That may be an excuse after the fact. We have no way of

10 knowing that.

11 THE COURT: That may be. You know there are land

12 mines around all over the place.

13 MR. GREENFIELD: That's right.

14 THE COURT: Okay, take ten. You going to have

15 redirect?

16 MR. GARCIA: A few, several questions, your

17 Honor. Not too many.

18 (Recess)


20

21

22

23

24

25

1207 1 (In open court; jury present)

2 ARIEL FERNANDEZ, resumed, through the

3 interpreter.


5 MR. GARCIA: Thank you, your Honor.


7 BY MR. GARCIA:

8 Q. Officer Fernandez, you were asked on

9 cross-examination about writing reports; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. You testified that in special situations you do

12 not file a report; is that right?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Were the events at the Dona Josefa on the night

15 of January 6th and the morning of January 7th considered

16 special situation?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. Why was this classified as a special situation?


20 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, at this time the

21 government would offer Government Exhibit 3521A.

22 THE COURT: Mark it in.

23 (Government Exhibit 3521A received in evidence)


25 THE COURT: What? No. It will go in.

1208 1 MR. GARCIA: May we pass it to the jury, your

2 Honor?

3 THE COURT: Not right now. No. Anything else?

4 MR. GARCIA: Nothing.

5 THE COURT: Recross?



8 Q. Sir, was it your testimony earlier that you don't

9 write any report concerning the events which took place on

10 January 6, 1995?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Sir, isn't it a fact that you told the FBI agents

13 on March, 1995, that after you went to the police station

14 you wrote a report?

15 A. While we didn't make the report per se, if we

16 made, we wrote down a report then this news could leak,

17 because about the 12th of January the Pope was expected to

18 arrive.

19 Q. Sir, did you tell the FBI in March, 1995, that

20 after you left apartment 603 and went back to the police

21 station you prepared a report?

22 A. I didn't make a report because the higher

23 headquarters authorities took over.

24 Q. But, sir, did you tell the FBI during your

25 interview of March, 1995, that you prepared a report?

1209 1 A. As I said I didn't make a report for fear that

2 this would leak to the media --

3 THE COURT: Yes.

4 A. -- the Pope was on his way.

5 THE COURT: No, no. The question is not whether

6 you made a report or not. The question is, did you tell the

7 FBI?

8 THE WITNESS: I told the FBI that I was unable to

9 make a report.

10 Q. I'm sorry, sir. Would you repeat the answer?

11 A. I told the FBI that I was unable to make a

12 report.

13 Q. So if the FBI agents prepared a report after an

14 interview with you in March of 1995 which stated that you

15 told them you prepared a report then the FBI report would be

16 inaccurate; is that correct, sir?


18 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: I have no further questions.

19 MR. UDELL: No questions.



22 Q. Would you pick up 3521A which is now in evidence.

23 The third page, 3521A, which is now in evidence is a copy of

24 an FBI report wherein you were questioned by Special Agent

25 Pellegrino and another agent, isn't that correct?

1210 1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. According to this document in evidence you were

3 questioned on March 23, 1995, isn't that correct?

4 A. I don't really remember the dates.

5 Q. Well, the document in evidence says March 23,

6 1995. Do you have any reason to dispute it?


8 Q. If Agent Pellegrino says he questioned you on

9 March 23, 1995, do you have any reason to dispute what he

10 says?


12 Q. You don't know what?

13 A. I don't know what he wrote.

14 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute the date that

15 he says the interview took place?

16 A. I don't really know. He's the one who wrote

17 this.

18 Q. Isn't it a fact, according to the 3521A in

19 evidence, that you told Agent Pellegrino on March 23, 1995,

20 Fernandez stated; that they waited for the bomb disposal

21 unit to arrive to conduct the search of the apartment to

22 make sure there were no bombs in the apartment." Did you

23 say that to Agent Pellegrino on March 23, 1995?

24 A. What I told the FBI was that when I arrived there

25 on my third visit the bomb disposal unit was already there,

1211 1 and they were there to help conduct the search for the

2 bombs.

3 Q. Sir, are you saying that Agent Pellegrino

4 misstated what you told him on March 23, 1995?

5 A. I don't really know him.

6 Q. You were interviewed in the United States Embassy

7 on March 23, 1995, isn't that correct?

8 A. I don't remember the exact date.

9 Q. Would you look at 3521A and see if it refreshes

10 your recollection as to the date?


12 THE COURT: No. Go ahead.

13 A. I don't really remember.

14 Q. Well, you were interviewed by Pellegrino --

15 withdrawn -- Special Agent Pellegrino and Special Agent Egan

16 one time, isn't that right?

17 A. Yes, I'm sure that they interviewed us, but I

18 don't remember the dates.

19 Q. When you say, "us," who else was interviewed on

20 the same day you were interviewed?

21 A. I mean myself, Capt. Fariscal and Lt. Tizon.

22 Q. And that all occurred in the United States

23 Embassy?

24 A. I was interviewed in the US Embassy.

25 Q. Well, what about the other people who were

1212 1 interviewed?

2 A. We were not interviewed all at the same time so I

3 don't know.

4 Q. Well, then answer my question. On one occasion

5 you were interviewed by Special Agents Pellegrino and Egan

6 in the United States Embassy, isn't that correct?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. If you look at the bottom of 3521A does it

9 indicate that Special Agent Francis J. Pellegrino of the FBI

10 New York and Special Agent Lawrence Egan FBI, Honolulu

11 questioned you on March 23, 1995?

12 A. I don't remember the actual date when it happened

13 but I was interviewed.

14 Q. And isn't it a fact that you told those two

15 special agents that you waited for the bomb disposal unit to

16 arrive to conduct a search of the apartment to make sure

17 there were no bombs in the apartment?

18 A. What I can say is on my third visit back to the

19 Josefa Apartments when I arrived there the bomb disposal

20 unit was already there.

21 Q. And if you told the FBI that you were there

22 before that -- withdrawn.

23 If you told the FBI that you were there before

24 the disposal unit the FBI would be incorrect; is that what

25 you're saying?

1213 1 MR. GARCIA: Objection.

2 THE COURT: Okay. Anything else?

3 MR. GREENFIELD: No, your Honor.

4 THE COURT: Okay, step down.

5 (Witness excused)

6 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor.

7 THE COURT: Call your next witness.

8 MR. SNELL: Orlando Ramilo?

9 ORLANDO RAMILO,


11 having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

12 MR. SNELL: May I proceed, your Honor.



15 BY MR. SNELL:

16 Q. Mr. Ramilo, how are you employed, sir?


18 Q. What is your command?


20 Q. And where are you a police officer?

21 A. I'm a police with the city of Manilla.

22 Q. Are you part of the Philippine National Police or

23 PNP?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. How long have you been with the police?

1214 1 A. Twenty-two years, sir.

2 Q. What is your rank at present?

3 A. I'm a police inspector.

4 Q. Do you specialize in any particular area of

5 police work?

6 A. I'm the chief of the bomb disposal unit of the

7 western police district.

8 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, could we just ask to

9 have the last part read back?

10 THE COURT: Sure.

11 (Record read)

12 Q. How long have you held the position of chief of

13 that unit, sir?

14 A. I became the chief in the year of 1995.

15 Q. Have you had any training in the field of bomb

16 disposal or explosives investigation?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. What sort of training have you had?

19 A. In 1992 I took a course called explosive ordnance

20 reconnaissance course. In 1989 I took an explosive ordnance

21 disposal course. In 1991 I was sent to Louisiana to study

22 the Louisiana Police Academy and I studied explosive

23 incidents counter measure.

24 Q. Did you say that the reconnaissance course was in

25 1992?

1215 1 A. 1982.

2 Q. What generally do your duties involve with the

3 explosives unit with the disposal unit?

4 A. My responsibilities in the unit cover responding

5 to bomb threats, responding to actual bombs incidents,

6 defusing bombs and rendering them safe, and should

7 dignitaries visit from abroad, before these visitors go to a

8 particular place we sanitize and protect the area. And one

9 more, I also take care of post-blast investigations.

10 Q. Let me direct your attention to the night of

11 January 6th into the morning of January 7th. Were you

12 working at that time?

13 A. I had a 24-hour duty that began at 9 a.m. on the

14 6th of January and continued on to the next day, next

15 morning.

16 Q. Did there come a time sometime after midnight

17 between the 6th and the 7th that you received a telephone

18 call?

19 A. I did receive a call. It was actually the early

20 morning of the 7th of January about 1:30 in the morning.

21 Q. Who was that call from?

22 A. The phone call came from police station 9 from

23 Capt. Aida Fariscal.

24 Q. After you received that phone call what, if

25 anything, did you do?

1216 1 A. Because she was requesting for EOD assistance I

2 called my partner, Special Police Officer Mandigma.

3 Q. What do you mean by -- I'm sorry, were you

4 finished?

5 A. I called him up and I said that we have to

6 respond to a call and we should go to police station 9.

7 Q. What do you mean by EOD assistance?

8 A. When our unit receives phone calls regarding any

9 bomb incident that's what we call that call.

10 Q. Did you know what EOD stands for?

11 A. It means explosive ordnance disposal.

12 Q. Now, after you spoke with Officer Mandigma what

13 did you do?

14 A. We gathered all our equipment and we headed to

15 station 9.

16 Q. About how far is that, or how long did it take

17 you?

18 A. Because that time was very early in the morning

19 it just took us ten minutes, more or less ten minutes.

20 Q. What happened when you arrived at police station

21 9?

22 A. When we entered the police station, the precinct

23 we were met by Capt. Fariscal.

24 Q. Did you have a conversation at this time with

25 Capt. Fariscal?

1217 1 A. Yes. She informed me that --

2 MR. UDELL: Objection, your Honor.

3 THE COURT: Yes, you had a conversation, yes.

4 Q. After your conversation with Capt. Fariscal what

5 did you do?

6 A. We rode in the Jeep of Sgt. Mandigma and we all

7 headed to Josefa Apartments.

8 Q. When you say, we all headed to the Josefa

9 Apartments, who exactly are you referring to, sir?

10 A. We were four, myself, Sgt. Mandigma, Capt.

11 Fariscal and a foreigner.

12 Q. Where did you first see this foreigner?

13 A. When we entered, when we arrived at precinct 9 as

14 you entered to the left I saw him talking with Capt.

15 Fariscal.

16 Q. Did there come a time when you arrived at the

17 Josefa Apartments with your group?

18 A. Yes, sir, the four of us.

19 Q. What did you do when you arrived there?

20 A. Capt. Fariscal spoke with the person on duty at

21 the front desk, and with one employee of the building, a

22 male employee of the building. We all went up the elevator.

23 Q. What happened when you got off the elevator?

24 A. We went to a room number 603, and that person

25 that was employed by the building opened, unlocked the door.

1218 1 Q. What happened after the door to the room 603 was

2 unlocked?

3 A. The employee who opened, who unlocked the door

4 stayed outside, and Capt. Fariscal ordered us to search the

5 area for bombs, but the door was opened.

6 Q. When you say "us," who was it that Capt. Fariscal

7 ordered to search?

8 A. Myself and my colleague Sgt. Mandigma.

9 Q. Did you and Sgt. Mandigma enter the room at that

10 point?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. What did you see when you went inside?

13 A. As you open the door, even as you look into the

14 room we could see many boxes, a lot of bottles, plastic

15 containers. Even as you enter you can see all of this.

16 Q. What did you do after you stepped inside the room

17 and saw the basic layout?

18 A. I made an agreement with Sgt. Mandigma that we

19 would cover the room. Our search would cover the room this

20 way, he would take the left side and I would take the right

21 side.

22 Q. After you divided up the room in this way, what

23 did you do?

24 A. As you enter the apartment to your first left is

25 the door to the toilet, and further there on the left is the

1219 1 kitchen area. When you opened -- when Sgt. Mandigma opened

2 one of these drawers underneath he found a pipe, two pieces

3 of pipe tubing with the end caps unattached.

4 Q. Where were you when Sgt. Mandigma found these

5 items?

6 A. We were side by side, and he informed me.

7 Q. After Sgt. Mandigma called your attention to the

8 pipes in the cabinet, what did you do?

9 A. So we shifted our search to the left, left side

10 of the room. We didn't move anything. Also, on the kitchen

11 counter we found two bottles of juice.

12 Q. Would you describe those bottles of juice,

13 please?

14 A. Both bottles were capped.

15 Q. What were they --

16 A. And they had, and it contained something.

17 Q. What were the bottles made out of?

18 A. They're juices bottles. I can't remember the

19 brand, but they're juices bottles.

20 Q. Did you inspect the bottles at all?

21 A. We uncapped the bottles, and we smelled it, and

22 it was very, very painful and for our noses for our

23 nostrils.

24 Q. After you smelled what was in the bottles what

25 did you do next?

1220 1 A. We capped the bottles again and we just left them

2 there.

3 Q. Did you notice anything else in the area around

4 the kitchen?

5 A. What I remember was that the kitchen counter had

6 a sink. I remembered seeing a large cauldron part of which

7 was burnt, and I remember seeing a green glove, just one.

8 Q. What was the glove made out of?

9 A. Rubber.

10 Q. After you looked at the counter area of the

11 kitchen what did you do?

12 A. We proceeded to look above in the cabinets above

13 the kitchen counter, and he found another pipe with, this

14 time with caps attached, and the cap was attached to this

15 pipe and the caps were attached and wrapped with brown tape.

16 It seemed like packing tape.

17 Q. Did you take a closer look at that item?

18 A. Yes, sir, but we didn't move it.

19 Q. Based on your training did you have any belief at

20 that point as to what it might be?

21 A. We know that, among us, we know that this is a

22 container for a pipe bomb.

23 Q. After you saw the item in the cabinet what did

24 you do?

25 A. We didn't examine it. We didn't move it.

1221 1 Q. What did you do next?

2 A. I took a look again at the entire receiving room

3 that whole area, and see right in the middle around the

4 table seated around the table was Capt. Fariscal and a

5 foreigner. And so we went on our search to the right of

6 that table, and to the right was a couch, and on that couch,

7 the couch was surrounded by a lot of stuff and on that couch

8 was a black bag.

9 Q. Did you take a lack at the black bag, sir?

10 A. I unzipped it part of the way, and I saw that it

11 was a laptop computer.

12 Q. What did the laptop computer that you saw look

13 like?

14 A. I believe it was this high, and this wide, and it

15 was dirty white in color, and what I remember it was a

16 Toshiba.

17 Q. Could you just indicate again for the jury about

18 what the dimensions of the laptop were?

19 A. Could I use a piece of paper?

20 Q. If you think you can draw it, sure.

21 A. It was this wide (indicating)this long

22 (indicating) and this thick (indicating).

23 THE COURT: The thickness about two inches, maybe

24 two and a quarter. The yellow pad, two thirds of the yellow

25 pad one way and the cross portion is the yellow pad the

1222 1 other way.

2 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, the width is the width

3 of the yellow pad?

4 THE COURT: Yes.

5 Q. After you looked at the laptop, sir, what did you

6 do?

7 A. I zipped it back.

8 Q. And then did you look at anything else?

9 A. So towards the end, past the other end of the

10 couch in the other area were boxes and chemicals and

11 chemicals in bottles.

12 Q. What did the bottles containing the chemicals

13 look like?

14 A. Some were large and some were small. It was a

15 mixture.

16 Q. Did you notice anything else in that part of the

17 apartment?

18 A. So there's a divider in the middle of the room

19 and below the divider was a small table, and built in into

20 this room divider were shelves, open shelves.

21 Q. Did you notice anything on those shelves, sir?

22 A. It was an assortment of things. There were

23 electric stoves, cotton.

24 Q. What did the stoves look like?

25 A. These were small electric stoves still in their

1223 1 boxes.

2 Q. After you completed your tour of the living area

3 of the apartment what did you do?

4 A. Before we left the living room we noticed that, I

5 noticed that there was a table right there by the divider,

6 and it was on this was a bag filled with a lot of stuff and

7 pieces of electronic parts. There were a lot of things.

8 Q. What color was that bag?

9 A. If I'm not mistaken I believe it's greenish.

10 THE COURT: We will find out maybe tomorrow.

11 Okay, 4:30, ladies and gentlemen, time to go. Please sit

12 down, Mr. Snell.


14

15

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18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


2 THE COURT: All right, step down.


4 THE COURT: How much longer do you expect to be

5 with this man?

6 MR. SNELL: Judge, I would guess about 40 minutes

7 maybe.

8 THE COURT: Read your examination today. See

9 you. Tomorrow at 10 o'clock.

10 (Adjourned to 10 a.m., Tuesday, June 25, 1996)

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1226





24

25

1227


2 THE COURT: Be seated, please, sit down. How

3 much more do you have of Ramilo?

4 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, I'm hoping to get if down

5 to about thirty minutes.

6 Your Honor, could I start by putting a couple of

7 exhibits on the witness stand that I'll begin the

8 examination with?

9 THE COURT: Yes.

10 ORLANDO RAMILO, resumed, through the interpreter.

11 (Jury present)

12 THE COURT: All right. Good morning, ladies and

13 gentlemen. You remember Mr. Ramilo on the stand last night

14 and at the time we ended up Mr. Snell was talking to him

15 about the search he was conducting in room 603. Go ahead.

16 MR. SNELL: May I proceed, your Honor?

17 THE COURT: Yes.

18 DIRECT EXAMINATION(Continued)

19 BY MR. SNELL:

20 Q. Inspector Ramilo, yesterday you were telling us

21 about seeing a laptop computer inside room 603; is that

22 right?


24 Q. Sir, I'd like you to take a look at the item

25 that's directly in front of you, the black item, and please

1228

1 examine it and tell us whether you recognize it be?

2 MR. SNELL: For the record, your Honor, it's

3 tagged Government Exhibit 301A.

4 A. This black item seems similar to what I saw at

5 room 603.

6 Q. How do you recognize that item?

7 A. I recognize it because the shiny portion of the

8 cover is familiar.

9 Q. Is there any part of that item that you don't

10 recognize?

11 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Objection, your Honor, to the

12 form.

13 THE COURT: Yes. Well, pick it up.

14 A. This piece of tape, evidence tape was not there

15 when I saw it.

16 Q. Now, directing your attention to the other item

17 on the witness stand marked Government Exhibit 301, do you

18 recognize that, sir?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. What do you recognize it to be?

21 A. This is the laptop computer that was inside this

22 black bag.

23 Q. How do you recognize that exhibit, sir?

24 A. I remember the mark Toshiba and the color.

25 Q. Now, sir, you were telling us yesterday that you

1229

1 examined the living area of apartment 603. After you

2 finished in that area what did you do?

3 A. Then we headed to the bedroom.

4 Q. Would you summarize for us, please, sir, what you

5 saw in the bedroom?

6 A. When I first peeked under the bed in the bedroom

7 I saw timers, and on the table below the mirror I saw

8 Bibles, crucifixes and pictures of the holy Pope.

9 Q. Would you please describe what the timers you saw

10 under the bed had looked like?

11 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, I'd like to ask that the

12 witness be handed what has been marked Government Exhibits

13 324A through D.

14 THE COURT: I want to hear what the answer to the

15 last question was.

16 MR. SNELL: I'm sorry.

17 THE COURT: You may not need it translated but I

18 do.

19 MR. SNELL: My mistake.

20 A. I believe there were several pieces of timers.

21 There were several objects, timers and some of them had

22 wires attached to them. It seemed like these wires would be

23 connected up to produce, to generate electric current.

24 Q. Inspector Ramilo, would you please take a look

25 now at the items that have been placed before you, exhibits

1230

1 324A through D, and tell us whether you recognize those?

2 A. May I open them?

3 THE COURT: Sure.

4 Q. Please.

5 A. These were the ones that I saw under the bed.

6 Q. By "these," are you referring to all four

7 exhibits?

8 A. I know that there were several pieces. I'm not

9 exactly sure how many they were, but I remember especially

10 this piece with the wires.

11 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, the government offers

12 exhibits 324A through D.


14 THE COURT: No, I'll permit them. Go ahead.

15 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, voir dire?

16 THE COURT: Voir dire? Sure.

17 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION BY


19 Q. Sir, could you tell us how you were able to

20 recognize these items today?

21 A. Because I saw these under the bed.

22 Q. And did you open the boxes when you saw them

23 under the bed, sir?

24 A. Some of them I remembered had a wire, wires

25 coming out from them, especially this one.

1231

1 Q. Did you open the boxes and see what was inside it

2 when you saw it for the first time?

3 A. Some of them were not in the boxes, and they were

4 just strewn on the side.

5 Q. And the ones which were in the boxes did you open

6 the boxes and see what were inside them?

7 A. We peeked at it.

8 Q. I'm sorry, would you repeat the answer?

9 A. We peeked at it.

10 THE COURT: We peeked at it.

11 Q. Did you put any mark on the boxes so that you

12 could recognize them later?

13 A. No, sir, because we were just inspecting at that

14 time.

15 Q. When was the last time which you saw them, sir?

16 A. What do you mean, sir?

17 Q. When was the last time before today in which you

18 saw these same boxes?

19 A. I saw this then after when the search warrant was

20 served.

21 Q. So the last time in which you saw them was 1995,

22 January, am I correct, sir?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Sir, isn't it true that exactly what you saw that

25 they looked like the one which you saw and not the same that

1232

1 the one you saw in 1995, January?

2 A. It's very similar.

3 Q. So, sir, you can't say that these are exactly the

4 same ones which you saw in January, 1995, am I correct, sir?

5 A. It's very similar to what I saw.


7 Objection, your Honor.

8 THE COURT: Mark them in.

9 (Government Exhibits 324A through D received in

10 evidence)

11 BY MR. SNELL:

12 Q. Inspector Ramilo, you also mentioned seeing a

13 green glove yesterday. Do you recall that?


15 MR. SNELL: May I have one moment, your Honor?

16 Your Honor, may the witness be handed Government

17 Exhibits 333A and 333 for identification?

18 THE COURT: Sure.

19 Q. Inspector Ramilo, please take a look at those

20 items and tell us if you recognize them?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. What are they?

23 A. This is similar to the glove that I saw at the

24 kitchen sink.

25 Q. Are you referring to the photograph that's marked

1233

1 333A?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Does Government Exhibit 333A fairly and

4 accurately show the way that glove looked when you saw it on

5 January 7th, 1995?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Now, please direct your attention to Government

8 Exhibit 333, the other exhibit. Do you recognize that?

9 A. It seems that this is what I saw, also.

10 Q. Is it different in any way?

11 A. This has been torn up. It's not like what I saw

12 there.


14 Exhibit 333A, also.

15 THE COURT: Yes.

16 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: No objection, subject to

17 connection.

18 THE COURT: I'll take 333A in. Mark that.

19 (Government Exhibit 333A received in evidence)

20 MR. SNELL: I'll also offer exhibit 333 subject

21 to connection, your Honor.

22 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: No objection, your Honor.

23 THE COURT: You want to take it subject to

24 connection? Mark it in.

25 (Government Exhibit 333 received in evidence)

1234

1 Q. Sir, while you were looking in the bedroom area

2 of the apartment what did you see there?

3 A. Above the divider in the room I saw a carton that

4 seemed to have been spread out on top of the divider, and on

5 top of that were sheets of cotton that had been spread out

6 and it seemed as if it was set there to dry.

7 Q. Did you examine the cotton, sir?

8 A. That first time we were there we didn't really

9 examine it. We just looked at it.

10 Q. What did it look like?

11 A. The cotton seemed to have been spread out and

12 it's not its original white color. It seems dirty.

13 Q. Now, did you notice anything else while you were

14 in the bedroom area of the apartment this time?

15 A. From one of the drawers I saw a medical, a

16 document that seemed like a medical certificate.

17 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, could the witness be

18 please be handed what has been marked as Government Exhibit

19 315B.

20 Q. Sir, do you recognize that?

21 A. I recognize it. I noticed the word Karachi, but

22 the difference is that this piece of paper is dirty and

23 stained.

24 Q. Other than the staining on the paper does it

25 appear to be in the same condition as it was when you saw it

1235

1 on January 7, 1995?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 MR. SNELL: The government offers 315B subject to

4 connection.

5 (Government Exhibit 315B received in evidence)

6 Q. Inspector Ramilo, what did you do after you

7 finished your inspection of apartment 603?

8 A. Capt. Fariscal was waiting for the results of our

9 inspection, and so we were convinced that there were

10 ingredients in that place --

11 MR. GREENFIELD: Objection.

12 A. -- for the manufacture of bombs.


14 THE COURT: Yes, sustained. Ladies and gentlemen

15 what "we were convinced" about doesn't mean anything.

16 Q. Sir, without telling us --

17 THE COURT: I said it's not responsive to the

18 question. Take that out.

19 Q. Without telling us what was said, did you have a

20 conversation with Capt. Fariscal?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. And what did you do after you finished that

23 conversation?

24 A. I went down to the ground floor and I phoned Lt.

25 Mike Cruz.

1236

1 Q. Who is Lt. Mike Cruz?

2 A. He was the chief of the bomb disposal unit at

3 that time.

4 Q. Was he your immediate supervisor?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Were you able to reach him?

7 A. When I called him for the first time the phone

8 was just ringing, so we didn't speak to each other.

9 Q. Did you call anyone else?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Who was that?

12 A. The desk, our desk officer in our office.

13 Q. Did you ask that that officer call your

14 lieutenant?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Did there come a time when Lt. Cruz arrived at

17 the apartment?

18 A. When I went upstairs after I had been speaking

19 with the desk officer the phone rang.

20 Q. Who was on the telephone?

21 A. Lt. Mike Cruz.

22 Q. After you finished conversation with him did he

23 eventually arrive at the apartment?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. And what did you do once Lt. Cruz arrived at the

1237

1 apartment?

2 A. I briefed him on what we saw in the room.


4 A. Then all the senior officers started coming, Gen.

5 Ebdane, Gen. Canson, Col. Razon.

6 Q. What happened after the senior officers arrived?

7 A. When Gen. Canson arrived I informed him about the

8 laptop computer that I found.

9 Q. After you pointed out the laptop computer, what

10 happened?

11 A. Gen. Canson looked at it and he instructed one of

12 his aides to take it out of the room.


14 A. The officers talked amongst each other and we

15 just waited for instructions.

16 Q. Did there come a time when you received further

17 instructions while you were still inside the apartment?

18 A. After they talked amongst each other Lt. Mike

19 Cruz gave us the order that the suspicions --


21 THE COURT: He gave you an order. What happened

22 then?

23 A. Gave me an order.

24 THE COURT: All right. What happened next?

25 Q. What did you do after you received the order?

1238

1 A. I saw Lt. Mike Cruz take an attache case from the

2 bedroom and put in that attache case a suspicious object.

3 Q. Did you see anything else go into that attache

4 case?

5 A. I didn't see it. He was the one doing it.


7 A. The instructions was for us to leave and to

8 render safe that suspicious object.

9 Q. Did there come a time when you did that, sir?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Where did you go to render safe the suspicious

12 object?

13 A. We went to the reclamation area in Pasay.

14 Q. Would you please describe for the jury what the

15 reclamation area is?

16 A. The reclamation area was a former, was formerly

17 part of the sea that has been reclaimed, so it's an open,

18 wide open area by the sea, and very far from residences.

19 Q. What did you do in order to render the suspicious

20 device safe?

21 A. Since the US government had given us a gift of

22 devices like the one, we used one that's called the water

23 cannon, so we used that. So the water cannon is used to

24 dislodge the caps that keep a pipe bomb together.

25 Q. After you finished the render safe procedure,

1239

1 what did you do next?

2 A. We gathered the contents of the suspicious object

3 and we returned to the office.

4 Q. Did you notice anything about those contents as

5 you were gathering them?

6 A. Yes, I noticed that the contents was crystallized

7 material wrapped in plastic.

8 Q. What happened after you returned to your office?

9 A. We were given the instructions not to go home

10 yet, to just stand by in the office and wait for further

11 instructions.

12 Q. While you were waiting, did you do anything?

13 A. I asked Lt. Mike Cruz about making reports.

14 Q. Did Lt. Cruz give you any instructions as to

15 doing any paperwork?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. What were you instructed to do?

18 A. When I was making the report he handed me a list

19 that should be inserted in the report.

20 Q. What kind of a list, sir?

21 A. It included items like a watch, tubes for making

22 pipe bomb. These items were listed.

23 Q. And did you receive any other instructions from

24 Lt. Cruz?

25 A. Yes, sir.

1240


2 A. He told me to include this particular list in the

3 report, and I told him that this is really not originally

4 included, and he said that he has further instructions from

5 above to do so.

6 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, could we have the last

7 answer read back?

8 THE COURT: Sure.

9 (Record read)

10 Q. Did Lt. Cruz give you any instructions with

11 respect to the attache case that you referred to earlier in

12 your testimony?

13 A. Yes, sir.


15 A. He said that this attache case was given to us by

16 Capt. Fariscal, and that was different.

17 Q. Could you explain that, sir?

18 A. He gave me the instructions that to put another

19 item in the report that is really different from what had

20 really happened. He said that I should say that this

21 attache case was found in the hallway outside apartment 603,

22 and that Capt. Fariscal found this.

23 Q. Was that different -- the instructions that you

24 received, that is, with respect to the attache case, were

25 they different from what you had observed?

1241

1 A. Yes, it was different.

2 Q. Did you agree to do what Lt. Cruz instructed you

3 to do?

4 A. I couldn't really do anything because I was a

5 sergeant at that time, and he said that the instructions

6 came from above.

7 Q. Did you write the report the way you were

8 instructed to do so?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. What happened after you finished the report?

11 A. I was told to file this report in the office.

12 Q. Did you do that?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Did there come a time later that day when you

15 were instructed to return to the Josefa building?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. What were you instructed to do there?

18 A. We were instructed to wear our EOD uniforms and a

19 search warrant was going to be served.

20 Q. Did you go to the Josefa building later on the

21 7th of January?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Could you tell us, please what happened when you

24 got there?

25 A. We waited for the officers and we waited for, and

1242

1 eventually they came, Gen. Ebdane, the counter intelligence,

2 and different chiefs of the police, and we waited until this

3 search warrant was served to the management of the Josefa.

4 Q. After the search warrant was served did you and

5 your fellow EOD team members go inside apartment 603?

6 A. Yes. The instructions to us was that the first

7 people that should enter the apartment was the EOD team.

8 Q. What did you do once you were inside the

9 apartment? Could you summarize that for us, please?

10 A. My particular job at that time was to help Sgt.

11 Voltaire Gomez to perform an inventory of the things that

12 would be found.

13 Q. When you entered apartment 603, sir, did it

14 appear to be in the same condition as it had been when you

15 left?

16 A. It seemed like it was in the original condition

17 except that the attache case and the laptop computer had

18 been removed.

19 Q. About how long were you in the apartment to do

20 the search pursuant to the search warrant?

21 A. If I'm not mistaken it was approximately 9

22 o'clock when we were finished.

23 Q. After you finished what did you do?

24 A. We went home, we went back to the office and

25 because our duties were, we had overdone our duties, Sgt.

1243

1 Mandigma and I were ordered by Lt. Cruz to go home.

2 Q. What do you mean by overdone your duties?

3 A. As per our normal tour of duty we should have

4 finished at 9 a.m. that Saturday when in fact we were done

5 at 10 o'clock p.m. that night.

6 Q. Inspector Ramilo, did there come a time when you

7 were interviewed by the FBI in connection with what happened


9 A. Yes, they invited us to the US Embassy.

10 Q. Was that on or about March 1, 1995?

11 A. I don't remember the day and the date, but I

12 remember that the first visit was to the US Embassy.

13 Q. You say the first visit. Was there a second

14 interview that you had with the FBI?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. And where did that take place?

17 A. At the office of our division chief, Police Major

18 Angeles.

19 Q. During those two interviews did you tell the FBI

20 about the events of January 7, 1995?

21 A. What I reported to them was what was contained in

22 the report that I made.

23 Q. And was that true, sir?


25 THE COURT: No.

1244

1 Q. Was what was contained in the report and what you

2 reported to the FBI at that time true, sir?

3 A. What I told them was what was contained in the

4 report, part of which was not true.

5 Q. Now, within the last couple of months were

6 arrangements made for you to come and testify at the trial

7 here in New York?

8 A. We learned about this the last portion of May.

9 Q. Did you receive an airplane ticket from the

10 United States government?

11 A. Yes, they gave us a plane ticket.

12 Q. And is the United States government paying for

13 your accommodations here in the United States?

14 A. Yes, that's what I understand.

15 Q. Do you also understand that the United States is

16 paying your salary while you're away from work because of

17 this trial?

18 A. Yes, that's what I understand.

19 Q. And are you also receiving a meal allowance and

20 witness fee?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Finally, Inspector Ramilo, did there come a time

23 when you decided to change what you had told the FBI about

24 the events of January 7, 1995?

25 A. Yes, sir, that's true.

1245

1 Q. When was this?

2 A. The 17th of June.

3 Q. Is that last week, sir?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. What happened on the 17th of June?

6 MR. GREENFIELD: Objection, your Honor, leading.

7 THE COURT: No, I'll let it go. Go ahead.

8 A. We were already here in the United States and so

9 Mike Cruz and I had a talk and we decided to tell the truth.

10 So we asked for a meeting with the agents of the FBI and the

11 district attorneys because we wanted to relieve our

12 consciences.

13 MR. SNELL: No further questions.


15 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, could we have a

16 brief recess now?

17 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, if I might, I neglected

18 to ask if the exhibits that were admitted could be passed.

19 Maybe this would be would be a good chance to do that.

20 THE COURT: Sure.

21 (Government Exhibits 315B, 324 A-D and 333A

22 passed to the jury)

23 (Pause)

24 THE COURT: Do you have the other thing that I

25 said we will show the jury later?

1246


2 THE COURT: Show it to them now.


4 THE COURT: Show it to them now.

5 (Government Exhibit 3521A passed to the jury)

6 (Pause)

7 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, that last

8 exhibit you read is given as only some evidence, and I say

9 some evidence, of what the witness said at a prior time. It

10 is not given to you for the truth of what is said at the

11 prior time is true. You just had his testimony on the

12 stand. Okay, we'll take a break.

13 (Recess)


15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1247


2 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, a couple of

3 applications.


5 MR. GREENFIELD: Again I renew my application

6 with respect to severance or mistrial because the government

7 on direct brought out though the witness recanted, he said

8 the crucifixes and the pictures of the Pope, some part of

9 the case he said he wants to bring it out, and explain it

10 for whatever is going to be found at the scene that wasn't

11 referred to by this witness that he saw, and he was

12 custodian for the purposes of planting, if the jury finds

13 something that is not before the Court in the indictment.

14 It was done for 403 purposes or prejudicial purposes. It

15 should be kept out. I didn't want to highlight it when he

16 said it because I think it's even worse, and I'm making my

17 application now.

18 THE COURT: Wait until you read the statement of

19 one of your client's codefendants. You may understand then

20 why I permitted it in.

21 MR. GREENFIELD: I thought that was to be severed

22 out, your Honor, Bruton.

23 THE COURT: I don't know. We'll see.

24 MR. GREENFIELD: Last quick one, your Honor, the

25 government did not give us notice of prior to us hearing it

1248

1 on the stand of the witness's recantation. I don't know if

2 that's Giglio or Brady. We should have had some notice as

3 to that. We were given this report and we were led to

4 belief it was a truthful report. Everybody at this table

5 prepared their cross-examination with that in mind. We

6 learn for the first time on direct examination the witness

7 recanted.

8 THE COURT: And everybody has had 43 minutes to

9 get a shot at preparing cross-examination. All right. Get

10 the witness and the jury.


12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1249

1 (Jury present)

2 ORLANDO RAMILO, resumed, through the interpreter.


4 CROSS-EXAMINATION


6 Q. Sir, was it your testimony today that you are

7 work for the Filipino National Police?

8 A. Yes, I'm a member.

9 Q. Sir, would you please explain for us what the

10 Filipino National Police is and how it's different from

11 local police?

12 A. The present Philippine National Police is a

13 combination now of the normal police and the Philippine

14 constabulary.

15 Q. And what is the difference between them, sir?

16 A. Could you clarify what you mean by the

17 difference, sir?

18 Q. What's the difference between the duties of the

19 local police and the other part of the police?

20 A. Presently both forces have been joined into one.

21 THE COURT: Are you telling us that there are no

22 local police?

23 THE WITNESS: In the beginning these were two

24 different entities. Now they've been joined together by the

25 Philippine government into one.

1250

1 Q. Do they perform the same duties now?

2 A. Yes, there's just one duty.

3 Q. Now, sir, do you know who was in charge of the

4 Filipino National Police in January, 1995?

5 A. I don't really remember because at that time

6 there are many different changes. It was constantly being

7 revamped.

8 Q. Who was the last one who you remember his name?

9 A. I remember national capital regional command,

10 Gen. Canson.

11 Q. Now, sir, do the rules of criminal procedures

12 which govern police conduct also apply to the Filipino

13 National Police?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Now, sir, what is your understanding as to the

16 requirement that members of the Filipino National Police are

17 obligated to prepare any written reports of their

18 investigation or their activities?

19 A. The question is apparently a little bit too large

20 for me to understand completely. Could you please simplify

21 it?

22 Q. Sir, what's your understanding of the reason in

23 which you are required to write reports after an incident?


25 THE COURT: Well, go ahead.

1251

1 A. If there is an incident one should make a report.

2 Q. And what's your understanding of the reason why

3 there is such a report, sir?

4 A. So that we can submit this and the other

5 officials could know what happened.

6 Q. Would these reports be used as evidence in this

7 particular incident?

8 A. The instructions to me were to make a report and

9 to file it in the office.

10 Q. Do you know if such reports were to be used as in

11 evidence in any judicial procedure concerning that incident?

12 A. I don't really know because after I was told to

13 make this report I filed it in the office.

14 Q. Have you ever testified in the Philippines in any

15 court concerning a report that you wrote regarding an

16 incident?

17 A. No, sir.

18 Q. Sir, is it the normal procedure to write accurate

19 and truthful reports when an incident occurs?

20 A. At that particular instance, at that particular

21 incident I received instructions, so that was what I did.

22 Q. But the normal procedure is to write truthful and

23 accurate reports, am I correct, sir?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. And is it a fact that in the Philippines you are

1252

1 required to prepare truthful reports of your police

2 investigation?

3 A. For this particular incident I was given such

4 instructions.


6 question read back?

7 THE COURT: Sure.

8 (Record read)

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. And writing an untruthful report would be

11 regarded as a violation of the law; is that correct, sir?

12 A. That was the instructions to me.


14 question read back, please.

15 THE COURT: Sure.

16 (Record read)

17 A. It's possible.

18 Q. Sir, would you give us details of your specific

19 training with respect to bomb disposal and post-blast

20 investigation?

21 A. Where should I begin?

22 Q. With the bomb disposal.

23 A. The work that we're supposed to do? Sir?

24 Q. The training which you received.

25 A. I took training in explosive ordnance disposal

1253

1 course in the year of 1989.

2 Q. And for how long was the course, sir?

3 A. Two months, sir.

4 Q. And what courses did you take, if any, in

5 post-blast investigation?

6 A. That is incorporated in that, in the

7 aforementioned course.

8 Q. The same two months?

9 A. Yes, sir, it's included in that course.

10 Q. Did you take any other courses other than these

11 two months, sir, regarding explosives?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Would you tell us what courses you had, please?

14 A. In 1982 I took an explosive ordnance

15 reconnaissance course.

16 Q. For how long was the course, sir?

17 A. A month, sir.

18 Q. Now, prior to January, 1995, how many bombs did

19 you defuse in Manilla or in the Philippines?

20 A. Many, sir.

21 Q. Would you give us an approximate number if you

22 can, sir?

23 A. In a month we usually have not less than three or

24 five incidents.

25 Q. Sir, did any of these involve pipe bombs?

1254


2 again, please?

3 Q. Did any of these involve pipe bombs?

4 A. The first pipe bomb that we rendered safe was the

5 one found on the 7th of January.

6 Q. Did you find any pipe bombs prior to January 7th

7 of 1995?

8 A. Not yet, sir.

9 Q. And what type of bombs you found during the

10 period before January of 1995?

11 A. There are some hoax bombs that are meant only to

12 scare the populace, and some are boxed like grenades that

13 are in boxes.

14 Q. Would you tell us the different types of bombs

15 which you defused during the period in which you worked

16 prior to January of 1995, sir?

17 A. I've defused many kinds of bombs but the most

18 common that I've defused are what we call IEDs. These are

19 called improvised explosive devices. Usually this consists

20 of grenades.

21 Q. Could you tell us other types of bombs other than

22 the grenade one?

23 A. Sometimes we find dynamite. Sometimes we find

24 plastic explosives.

25 Q. Now, sir are you aware of any pipe bomb explosion

1255

1 at Wendy's Restaurant in Manilla in 1994?

2 A. We did respond to the explosion at Wendy's, and

3 all we found were fragments.

4 Q. And what type of fragments there were, sir?

5 A. When we finally examined them and studied them

6 they seemed to be fragments from a pipe bomb.

7 Q. So the pipe bombs which you say you found in

8 apartment 603 wasn't the first time that you found a pipe

9 bomb, am I correct, sir?

10 A. The pipe bombs that we found at apartment 603 is

11 the first that we found that was still complete, that was

12 still whole. What we found at Wendy's Restaurant was

13 fragments.

14 Q. Did you find in any other occasion fragments

15 which came from pipe bombs?

16 A. I don't remember if I did.

17 Q. Sir, prior to January, 1995, how many post-blast

18 investigations involving bombs did you conduct?

19 A. Many, sir.

20 Q. Would you tell us approximately how many?

21 A. That's very difficult to approximate because it

22 doesn't happen every month.

23 Q. Sir, what geographical area did you cover in

24 December of 1994 and January of 1995?


1256

1 THE COURT: Did you cover all of Manilla?

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, the entire city of Manilla.

3 Q. Sir, during your duties as a bomb disposal

4 personnel in 1994, were you advised of bomb explosions which

5 you did not specifically take any part concerning the

6 investigation?


8 again, please, sir?

9 (Record read)

10 A. Usually, when there's an incident usually appears

11 in the newspapers.

12 Q. Did you become aware of any incidents, sir?

13 A. Because this was long ago I don't really

14 remember.

15 Q. Sir, did you become aware of an alleged bombing

16 at the Greenbelt Theater in Malate in December, 1994.



19 A. There's no Greenbelt in Malate.

20 Q. I'm sorry, sir?

21 A. There's no Greenbelt in Malate.

22 Q. Is there any theater in Malate, Manilla?

23 A. To my knowledge, no.

24 Q. Sir, do you know where Greenbelt Theater is in

25 Manilla?

1257

1 A. What I know is it is not in the city of Manilla.

2 It is in Malate, I'm sorry, in Makati.

3 Q. Sir, did you become aware of an alleged bombing

4 of Greenbelt Theater in Makati?


6 dates again, please?

7 Q. Did you become aware of an alleged bombing in

8 Greenbelt Theater in Makati in December, 1994?

9 A. I'm not sure about the date, December, '94. That

10 I don't know, but I know I heard news that something

11 exploded in the Greenbelt Theater in Makati.

12 Q. And when was the first time when you learned

13 about it, sir?

14 A. I don't really remember, but such news comes out

15 in the radio and in the newspaper.

16 Q. And what was your understanding of the

17 circumstances of that explosion, sir?




21 Q. Sir, do you know a police officer named Mario

22 Ignacio who works with the Makati police?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Did you know him in December of 1994, sir?

25 A. I know him.

1258

1 Q. And did you take a course with him in Louisiana?

2 A. Who, sir?

3 Q. Did you take the same course with him in

4 Louisiana?

5 A. No, we were not classmates.

6 Q. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Ignacio any

7 incident that occurred in Greenbelt Theater in December of

8 1994?

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. Now, sir, from the year of 1994, from January to

11 December of 1994, approximately how many bombings were there

12 in the Philippines?

13 A. I can't really tell you because this was so long

14 ago, but we do have statistics regarding this in the office.

15 Q. Sir, from January 1, 1995, to December of 1995,

16 approximately how many bombings were there in the

17 Philippines?

18 A. I can't give you an accurate number because that

19 is difficult to remember.

20 Q. Approximately how many, sir?

21 A. It's really difficult for me to give you an

22 accurate figure, but there are incidents.

23 Q. Not accurate, just an approximate number, sir, if

24 you can.


1259

1 THE COURT: Well, can you give an approximation?

2 THE WITNESS: Of the bombs that exploded or the

3 bombs that were found without exploding?

4 Q. Both, sir.

5 A. I can accurately say that there are incidents but

6 sometimes there are months when nothing explodes and then

7 there are months when something explodes, so I can't really

8 remember.

9 Q. Sir, based on your experience and investigation

10 is it a fact that within the last few years several

11 explosions took place in Manilla and were occurred by groups

12 against the government controlling the Philippines?



15 Q. Sir, isn't it a fact that there was a great deal

16 of media coverage, television and newspaper, at the

17 Philippines regarding the incident of the Dona Josefa

18 apartments in January of 1995?

19 A. What I know is that at that time there was a

20 general order of a news blackout. After the Pope had

21 visited and had departed then the news came out.


23 brief moment?

24 THE COURT: Pardon?

25 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Could I have one brief moment,

1260

1 your Honor?

2 THE COURT: Sure.

3 (Pause)

4 Q. Sir, isn't it a fact that soon after the incident

5 at the Dona Josefa apartments building legislation was

6 proposed to increase the police, the power of the police in

7 Manilla in the Philippines?



10 Q. Now, sir, was it your testimony today that after

11 the alleged incident in room number 603 you wrote a report

12 concerning the events which you said took place in that

13 night, am I correct, sir?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. And that was the normal procedure of your duty to

16 write the report after an incident. Am I correct, sir?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. And was it your testimony, sir, that you found an

19 attache case in room number 603?

20 A. That was what is, what I was told to include in

21 my report.

22 Q. I'm sorry, sir, would you repeat the answer?

23 A. That was what I was told to include in my report.

24 Q. You were asked to include in your report that the

25 attache case was found in room number 603?

1261


2 Q. Where did you actually find this bag, sir?

3 A. When Gen. Canson gave us instructions I saw Lt.

4 Mike Cruz take that attache case from the bedroom.

5 Q. Sir, where did you find that attache case?


7 THE COURT: Where did he find it? He said he

8 didn't find it. He was given it by Lt. Cruz. Next

9 question.

10 Q. Now, sir, were you instructed by Mr. Cruz to

11 write something else in the report other than what you saw

12 or you found?

13 A. He told me to write certain items down in the

14 report.

15 Q. And you knew at that time that this was not true,


17 A. Those were the instructions given me.

18 Q. What was your understanding for the reason of

19 preparing a phony report, sir?

20 A. I don't know. I was a sergeant at that time.

21 Q. And am I correct, sir, that you were also

22 instructed not to tell the truth to the FBI when they

23 interviewed you?

24 A. When I met with the FBI I stuck to what was

25 written on the report.

1262

1 Q. Now, sir, when you met with the FBI did you tell

2 them the truth?

3 A. Which meeting, sir?

4 Q. Did there come a time in which you had a meeting

5 with the FBI?

6 A. In the United States?

7 Q. No, the first meeting in Manilla which was

8 approximately in March of 1995.

9 A. I stayed with the report that I was instructed to

10 do.

11 Q. So were you instructed to lie during that

12 interview with the FBI?

13 A. No, I stayed with the report as I wrote it.

14 Q. Which was not true anyway, am I correct, sir?


16 Q. Now, sir, were you expecting any measures to be

17 taken against you had you not followed the orders of your

18 superiors?

19 A. I don't really know. What I did was I followed

20 the instructions given to me.

21 Q. Sir, had you disobeyed the instructions were you

22 expecting any measures to be taken against you?


24 Q. Sir, was there any reason why you did not tell

25 the truth to the FBI or write a truthful report when you

1263

1 prepared it in January of 1995?



4 A. That was the instruction given me so that's what

5 I followed.

6 Q. And was there any reason why you followed

7 instruction and not tell the truth?

8 A. That was the instruction.

9 Q. Sir, was there any reason why you followed the

10 instruction and did not give a truthful, did not write a

11 truthful report in January of 1995?

12 A. That was the instruction given to me, sir.

13 That's why I did that.

14 Q. Sir, if you were given instructions to make the

15 whole report phony or to make a lie statement to the FBI

16 concerning all the alleged events in January of 1995, would

17 you have done that, also?

18 A. Sir, I stuck with the report, the context of the

19 report that I was instructed to do.

20 Q. Sir, if you were instructed to write a completely

21 phony report, would you have done that also, sir?

22 A. I did what I did concerning that portion that I

23 was instructed to put in the report.

24 Q. Sir, if you were given different instructions

25 would you also follow them?

1264




4 Q. If you were asked to write a whole complete phony

5 report?

6 A. For this special incident I was given such

7 instruction.

8 Q. And if they gave you any different instructions

9 you'd have also followed that, am I correct, sir?

10 A. For this particular incident I was given the

11 special instructions.

12 Q. Sir, do you still work with the Filipino National

13 Police?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. And did you ask them for permission to come to

16 the United States and testify in court?

17 A. They gave us travel authorities.

18 Q. Did they give you permission to travel and

19 testify in this case, sir?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Had they not given you permission you would not

22 have been able to travel and testify in this case, am I

23 correct, sir?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. And when you go back you'd write a report about

1265

1 what you testified about if they would ask you to do so, am

2 I correct, sir?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Now, had they asked you to give a specific story

5 to the jury concerning what had happened in January 6th of

6 1995 in this courtroom, had you also followed their

7 instructions?

8 A. I believe not, because I'm here in the United

9 States.

10 Q. Are you going back to the Philippines?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. And if they would ask you to write a report

13 concerning what you testified about you are going to do so,


15 A. Yes, sir. I'm sorry, sir, the truth?

16 Q. I'm sorry, ma'am, would you repeat the answer?

17 THE INTERPRETER: I repeat what he said. What

18 the witness said.

19 Yes, sir, the truth?

20 Q. Yes, sir.

21 A. That's why when I got here I said the truth so

22 that my conscience will be free and I will not be weighed

23 down.

24 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, could we have an

25 early break?

1266

1 THE COURT: We'll take lunch. All right, ladies

2 and gentlemen. All right, 2 o'clock.

3 (Luncheon recess)


5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1267


2 2:00 p.m.


4 THE COURT: I understand that you are requesting

5 to use a videotape?

6 MR. KULCSAR: Yes, your Honor.

7 THE COURT: The question is how to go about using

8 the videotape. Well, the way to do it generally is to let

9 Joel Blum come in and stick in a video player and a VCR.

10 Joel is not here. There is a video over there. Who does

11 that belong to?

12 MR. SNELL: That's ours, your Honor.

13 THE COURT: Does it work?

14 MR. SNELL: I think so. We haven't tested it out

15 today.

16 THE COURT: How long will it take you to set it

17 up?

18 MR. SNELL: I don't know, your Honor. We weren't

19 planning --

20 THE COURT: I didn't think you were that old.

21 It's the older guys who don't know what they're doing with

22 electronic equipment. I mean if you were my age then I

23 would understand it.

24 MR. SNELL: It will take me a lot longer than it

25 will take somebody who knows what he is doing. I'm sure of

1268

1 that.

2 THE COURT: Michael, could you set it up?

3 MR. GARCIA: I'm the person who knows what he's

4 doing? Yes, I think we can set up, the TV is easier I think

5 than the VCR, but there are other monitors in the courtroom

6 for the judge and the defense lawyers that have to be hooked

7 up to the main monitor. We can have somebody from the

8 office put the equipment in, come down and hook it up.

9 THE COURT: How long does it take you, do you

10 know? You have no clue either. Lillie Grant, what do you

11 know?

12 MS. GRANT: I know nothing.

13 THE COURT: I saw nothing. Yes, I will tell

14 nothing. Col. Klink? Do they call you Klink? Sergeant

15 Schultz. Okay.

16 How much longer do you have, Mr. Yousef, without

17 that?

18 MR. KULCSAR: I'm sure more than a half hour,

19 your Honor.

20 THE COURT: We don't know yet, but we'll find out

21 how long it takes. Let's go. Let's get the witness back.


23

24

25

1269

1 ORLANDO RAMILO, resumed, through the

2 interpreter.

3 (Jury present)




7 Q. Sir, was it your testimony yesterday on direct

8 that sometime in early January 7th, 1995, you received a

9 call from Capt. Fariscal and you were asked for an

10 assistance concerning bomb disposal?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Sir, what was your understanding of the

13 assistance which was required from you at the Josefa

14 building?

15 A. The call that I received to my understanding is

16 that they required EOD police assistance because possibly

17 there was a bomb there.

18 Q. Now, sir, when you are notified of a possible

19 existence of a bomb in a building do you take into your

20 consideration that the bomb could explode at any time as a

21 trained disposal, as a trained bomb disposal personnel?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Now, sir, isn't it a fact that as a bomb disposal

24 personnel you are instructed to evacuate the building in the

25 case of a bomb threat?

1270

1 A. The people are not evacuated right away.

2 Q. Sir, as a bomb disposal personnel were you

3 instructed during your courses of explosives to evacuate

4 buildings in the event of any possible bomb threat?

5 A. We only do evacuations when we see a very obvious

6 explosive device.

7 Q. Sir, if you are told that a bomb could exist in a

8 building would it be possible that the bomb could explode at

9 any time?


11 THE COURT: I think he's already answered that

12 one. Next question.

13 Q. Now, sir, was there a time in which you entered

14 apartment 603 and you saw pipe bombs?

15 A. Which are you pertaining to?

16 Q. Did you see any pipe bombs in room number 603?

17 A. On the cabinets above the kitchen counter.

18 Q. Now, did you do anything to safeguard the lives

19 of the people of the Josefa building when you saw this pipe

20 bomb?

21 A. What we did was when we found this pipe bomb we

22 continued our search.

23 Q. Did you ask to evacuate the building?

24 A. No, sir.

25 Q. Did you ask for the firemen or the ambulance to

1271

1 arrive there in case of any possible explosion in the

2 building?

3 A. No, sir.

4 Q. Sir, was it your testimony that you entered room

5 603 with a Sergeant and Capt. Fariscal and a person who you

6 referred to as a foreigner?

7 A. Yes, sir, we did.

8 Q. And was it your testimony that as you opened the

9 door you could see many boxes, bottles and plastic

10 containers in the room 603?

11 A. We saw these.

12 Q. And at some point you say you saw some pipe

13 bombs, am I correct, sir?

14 A. There is, yes.

15 Q. And you saw some chemicals, did you?


17 again?

18 Q. Sir, did you see any chemicals in room number

19 603?

20 A. A lot, sir.

21 Q. And yet until that time you didn't ask the

22 building to be evacuated, am I correct, sir?

23 A. We continued our inspection.

24 Q. Moreover you had Capt. Fariscal, yourself, the

25 sergeant and the person who you referred to as the foreigner

1272

1 sitting there in the room while you say you were finding

2 some bombs, am I correct, sir?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Now, sir, how long did the search take you while

5 you were in apartment 603 at the first time?

6 A. Approximately less than an hour.

7 Q. Did you remove any pipe bombs from room number

8 603 at the first time?

9 A. When Gen. Canson ordered us to render safe the

10 bomb.

11 Q. How many pipe bombs did you take away from room

12 603?

13 A. What I saw was one pipe bomb that Lt. Mike Cruz

14 put in one in the attache case.

15 Q. How many pipes to your knowledge were taken away

16 from room number 603?

17 A. With my own eyes I saw one pipe bomb that was

18 placed in the attache case, and this particular pipe bomb

19 had tape wrapped around it.

20 Q. Sir, what's the total number of pipes which were

21 taken away from room number 603 as far as you know?

22 A. Below the kitchen counter under the sink we saw

23 one unassembled pipe bomb, but what I saw in my own eyes

24 that was put inside the attache case was one pipe bomb.

25 Q. And the pipe bombs that you had taken out from

1273

1 room number 603, do you know how many they were?

2 A. What I saw is the same pipe bomb that I

3 eventually rendered safe is that pipe bomb that was taped.

4 Q. Sir, what are the things which were taken away

5 from room number 603 before the search was started?

6 A. They take, what was taken out before the search

7 warrant was a laptop computer, an attache case into which

8 the pipe bomb was put.

9 Q. Were there any pipe bombs left in room number 603

10 when the search started?

11 A. What I know is that a container was left.

12 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, may I speak with

13 Ms. Grant?

14 THE COURT: Sure.

15 (Pause)

16 Q. Sir, was it your testimony that part of your job

17 was to prepare an inventory in room number 603?

18 A. My particular assignment at that time was to help

19 Sgt. Gomez who was in charge of making inventory.

20 Q. And when did you start preparing the inventory of

21 room number 603, sir?

22 A. When the management of the Josefa building was

23 served the search warrant, then I started.

24 Q. Now, when you started assisting preparation of

25 the inventory were all the pipe bombs taken away from room

1274

1 number 603 at that time?

2 A. What was removed, what was taken out of the

3 apartment by that time was the completed pipe bomb, the one

4 that was taped and capped, but the other one was left

5 behind.

6 Q. Now, was the inventory prepared during the search

7 of room number 603 by the search team?

8 A. Our system of preparing this inventory was I

9 would show the item and then Sgt. Gomez would list it down.

10 Q. Was a videotape taken during the search and the

11 preparation of the inventory, sir?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. And were there photographs taken during the

14 search, sir?

15 A. I didn't really notice that because I was just

16 paying attention to the job I was given.

17 Q. Did you see any camera flashes going on inside

18 the room?

19 A. I didn't notice because I was assisting Sgt.

20 Gomez in making the inventory.

21 Q. And what time did you finish preparing the

22 inventory?

23 A. We ended by about 9.

24 Q. And was that the same time in which the search

25 team ended its duty in room number 603?

1275

1 A. Yes. It all ended then.

2 Q. Sir, was it your testimony today that on January

3 17 -- on June 17, 1996, you discussed with other officers

4 from the Filipino National Police the fact that the report

5 which you prepared in January 7, 1995 was inaccurate and

6 false?

7 A. We did this in the United States, not in the

8 Philippines.

9 Q. Who was the officers who you discussed this

10 matter with them?

11 A. Just my former chief, Mike Cruz, the FBI Agent

12 and the prosecutors.

13 Q. What agent, sir? Who are the FBI agents who you

14 are referring to, sir?

15 A. It was FBI Agent Frank Pellegrino, attorney

16 Dietrich Snell and attorney Michael Garcia.

17 Q. And how many times did you have a discussion with

18 them concerning this issue?

19 A. What particular meeting, sir?

20 Q. How many meetings did you have with them

21 concerning the issue of preparing the false report?

22 A. We advised them the 17th of June.

23 Q. How many meetings did you discuss with them this

24 issue, sir?

25 A. When we told them the hard truth that was the

1276

1 17th.

2 Q. Was that the only meeting in which you had this

3 discussion with them?

4 A. When we advised them and we called them, they

5 came to us. That's when we advised them of the truth.

6 Q. How did this discussion come about?

7 A. Sir, we had arrived in the United States and we

8 decided that since we were going to testify in court, we

9 wanted to get the truth out so that our consciences will be

10 relieved.

11 Q. Now, sir, when you say, "we " who do you mean by

12 that?

13 A. Lt. Mike Cruz and myself.

14 Q. Did you discuss it with anyone else other than

15 Lt. Cruz the issue of the preparing the false report in

16 January 7, 1995?

17 A. No, sir, just the two of us.

18 Q. Sir, was it your testimony earlier that you were

19 instructed by Lt. Cruz not to write a truthful report in the

20 first time?

21 A. It is this person that instructed me to do so

22 because of instruction from above.

23 Q. And did he explain to you the reason of these

24 instructions?

25 A. No, sir.

1277

1 THE COURT: Is it now that you want to set up?

2 MR. KULCSAR: Yes, your Honor.

3 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we have through

4 the miracle of electronics something eventually to show you

5 so it will take a couple of minutes to set it up so we can

6 do it. So we'll take the afternoon break early today.


8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1278

1 (In open court; jury not present; witness and

2 interpreter not present)

3 THE COURT: I have no clue as to what is on this

4 video but I assume if you're going to show it to the jury

5 it's going to have to be in evidence.

6 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, that was my point that I

7 wanted to make.

8 THE COURT: Yes, I understand that. We agreed to

9 the thing going into evidence.

10 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, as far as I know --

11 MR. KULCSAR: Yes.

12 THE COURT: Everybody else? David?

13 MR. GREENFIELD: No objection.

14 MR. SNELL: My only problem, your Honor, is that

15 the witness I don't believe is prepared to authenticate any

16 videotape that he is to be shown.

17 THE COURT: I understand that, but I assume we're

18 not playing around with a videotape that has nothing to do

19 with it. If this turns out to be a blue movie you're all in

20 deep do do.

21 MR. SNELL: We do intend to call the witness who

22 shot this videotape. It's not this person.


24 (Recess)


1279

1 THE COURT: How long is this?

2 MR. GARCIA: 20, 25 minutes, Judge.


4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1280


2 interpreter.

3 (Jury present)

4 THE COURT: I generally do not admit my age but I

5 want you to know that I remember the 1938 World's Fair when

6 TV was brand new, all right? Now, they have -- yes, I know

7 you look shocked. Anyway, now they have it all over the

8 place, including courtrooms. All right. We're going to

9 show a videotape someplace. I have no idea where.

10 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, I have some

11 introductory questions.

12 THE COURT: Before the videotape, sure.



15 Q. Sir, there came a time on January 7, 1995 that

16 you say you returned to the police station after you

17 disposed of some of the pipe bombs; is that correct, sir?


19 last part of the question, please?


21 record read back?

22 (Record read)

23 A. Yes, one pipe bomb.

24 Q. What time did you leave Josefa Apartments in that

25 morning, sir?

1281

1 A. I don't remember the exact time but the light was

2 just coming up.

3 Q. Now, sir, were you told that you were going back

4 to room number 603 with other police officers to execute a

5 search warrant there?

6 THE INTERPRETER: I would request the record be

7 read.

8 THE COURT: Sure. Were you told that you were

9 going back to room 603 with other police officers to execute

10 a search warrant?

11 A. The order we got was first to stand by and wait

12 for further instruction in the office. Then towards the

13 afternoon we were ordered to put on our EOD uniform and we

14 returned.

15 Q. Now, sir, when you say, "we," who do you mean by

16 that?

17 A. The outgoing and the incoming team of the EOD and

18 Lt. Mike Cruz.

19 Q. And who was the person who was giving you the

20 orders, sir?

21 A. Lt. Mike Cruz who was our chief.

22 Q. And what time did you get back to room number

23 603?

24 A. When the search warrant was served.

25 Q. What instruction did you receive for concerning

1282

1 your duties once you got back to room number 603?

2 A. The particular instruction for me was that I

3 should be the one who helped Sgt. Voltaire Gomez make

4 inventory.

5 Q. Who was in charge of the search team in room

6 number 603?

7 A. The highest official at that place was Gen.

8 Ebdane.

9 Q. Was he also available during the search?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Now, at the time you entered with other police

12 officers apartment 603 was secured, am I correct, sir?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Was anyone inside when you first entered?

15 A. No, sir, the door was locked.

16 Q. Now, sir, you were aware that procedures inside

17 the room number 603 involved videotapings, am I correct,

18 sir?

19 A. Yes, that was the instruction.

20 Q. And am I correct that the purpose of this

21 videotaping was to show the activities of the police in

22 conducting the search?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. And also to preserve for evidence purposes what

25 was supposedly inside room number 603 when you first got in

1283

1 there, am I correct, sir?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Now, sir, would you please explain to the jury

4 what is shown in this videotape and the members of the

5 Filipino National Police on this videotape?



8 Q. Now, sir, am I correct that when you went with

9 the search team the second time to the room number 603 the

10 only thing which was taken away from room number 603,

11 according to your testimony, was a computer, an attache case

12 and a pipe bomb?

13 A. That's what I know.

14 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, could we have the

15 videotape played?

16 THE COURT: Sure.

17 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, I would like to

18 move this videotape in stipulation.

19 MR. SNELL: Government Exhibit 350 for the

20 record, your Honor.

21 THE COURT: Okay. Mark it in.


23 (Government Exhibit 350 played and interrupted)

24 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor,

25 THE COURT: Wait a minute. The jury can't see

1284

1 it.

2 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, with your

3 permission could I ask the witness to explain what's on this

4 videotape.

5 THE COURT: You're going to ask for a running

6 commentary on it? Is that what it is?

7 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Yes.

8 THE COURT: Okay. I don't care. If nobody else

9 objects to it, go ahead. Can everybody see it now? Back it

10 up and replay it.

11 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, could we have a brief

12 voir dire for a minute on it?

13 THE COURT: Sure. Hold the tape for a minute.

14 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

15 BY MR. SNELL:

16 Q. Inspector Ramilo, have you previously seen a

17 videotape of the search that was conducted of apartment 603


19 A. I just saw this tape in the United States.

20 Q. And when was that?

21 A. When we were called to the U. S. Attorney's

22 Office.

23 Q. Was that the first time you had ever seen this

24 videotape?

25 A. Yes, sir.

1285

1 Q. Do you know who the person was who made the

2 videotape?

3 A. The person who made, who took this videotape was

4 Sgt. Edilberto Capacete.

5 Q. And who is that?

6 A. He's a member of the bomb disposal unit.

7 Q. Is he here also with you in the United States?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 MR. SNELL: No further questions, your Honor.

10 THE COURT: All right, go ahead now. I assume

11 that you still want the running commentary on what is going

12 on, am I correct?

13 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Yes, your Honor, we'd just

14 like to have a general explanation of what is going to be

15 shown.


17 Now, Inspector, I want you to look at this and

18 give an explanation, general explanation of what is going

19 on.

20 (Government Exhibit 350 played)

21 THE WITNESS: The man in stripes that's not there

22 any more was our chief, and I could see Gen. Ebdane.

23 (Government Exhibit 350 interrupted)

24 MR. GREENFIELD: I object. Commentary obviously

25 can't keep up with the playing.

1286

1 THE COURT: Well, that's why I asked if

2 everybody --

3 MR. GREENFIELD: I understand that, but I thought

4 maybe somebody would realize it before it went too long.

5 Maybe we could stop and start it so we can explain it.

6 THE COURT: No. After it's over. We'll see it

7 first through, and then after it's over if you have

8 questions you can ask them. Go ahead, play it.


10 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, may the videotape

11 be played, the portion turned on which has an explanation in

12 English what has been shown.

13 THE COURT: Is it in English?

14 MR. SNELL: I think it's Taglog mainly, your

15 Honor.

16 MR. KULCSAR: No.


18 MR. SNELL: I also don't know if our equipment is

19 set up to accommodate audio.

20 THE COURT: I've got to tell you I've got a

21 problem. Rewind it if you will, please. I prefer to listen

22 to it myself. Go ahead, ask your question.

23 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: I'm sorry, your Honor. I

24 didn't hear you.

25 THE COURT: Go ahead, ask your question. The

1287

1 thing is rewound apparently. You want to play a part of it?

2 Is that what it is? I don't know.

3 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, could I just ask

4 the witness to give a general explanation of what's going

5 on? I just want it at the beginning to identify the persons

6 who are shown entering the room number 603.

7 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Show that.


9 A. The man in the striped shirt is Police Officer

10 Major Angeles. Beside him is SPO4 Armisticio Mandigma.

11 That's myself who entered, the first who entered into the

12 frame. The other two, this man in red, and the man behind

13 him I don't really know who they are. Perhaps they're

14 employees of the Josefa building. This gentleman is Gen.

15 Ebdane.

16 THE COURT: That's the fellow in the gray vest.

17 A. The man in maroon is Inspector Mike Cruz. The

18 man to the farthest right is SPO4 Voltaire Gomez.

19 THE COURT: You want to continue that way?

20 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Yes, your Honor.

21 THE COURT: Okay, go ahead. The question is

22 what's in the bottle? If you know.

23 THE WITNESS: These fruit just bottles were found

24 on top of the kitchen counter, and when we uncapped them and

25 smelled them the contents were very pungent and painful to

1288

1 the nose.


3 THE WITNESS: The man that's now out of the frame

4 is Lt. Mike Cruz.

5 THE COURT: He's the one pointing at the thing

6 under the sink; is that correct?


8 THE COURT: What's the thing under the sink?

9 THE WITNESS: That's the pipe with end caps on

10 the side of it.

11 THE COURT: Okay, go ahead.

12 THE WITNESS: These are some of the boxes of

13 chemicals that were found. It says corrosive. The man in

14 stripes is Major Angeles. These are some of the chemicals

15 on top of one table. I don't remember what this is called

16 but this is one of the bottles that we found on a table in

17 the living room.

18 These are more chemical bottles in the boxes.

19 This is a small bag that we found on the small table in the

20 living room just before you enter the bedroom. This is

21 another bottle of chemicals. That's myself handling this

22 bottle and I'm helping Sgt. Voltaire Gomez make inventory.

23 More chemicals. We continue making the inventory. I don't

24 really know what this frame is.

25 In the previous frame that was Lt. Mike Cruz.

1289

1 This is one of the timers. These are the timers found

2 underneath the bed. This is a picture of the holy Pope

3 found in the bedroom on top of the table underneath the

4 mirror. The man on the screen that you see he belongs to

5 Gen. Ebdane. And before the zoom-in you could see the Holy

6 Bible on the right. And a crucifix. I continue to help

7 Sgt. Voltaire Gomez make the inventory.

8 Sgt. Gomez makes markings and making the

9 inventory. Some of these are graduated cylinders from the

10 lab, from a lab. That seems to be a thermometer. These are

11 some of the books that were spread all around the place.

12 The person who stood up is Major Angeles. This is a pipe

13 bomb container that was underneath the kitchen sink. That's

14 Sgt. Gomez.

15 This was the bag that was left open that way.

16 There were many wires and electronic gadgets. Sgt. Gomez

17 looking through a plastic bag. These are more chemicals.

18 This is Lt. Mike Cruz looking through that bag that's in the

19 low table right before you enter the bedroom. This is Major

20 Aldama, Major Angeles in stripes, and I don't know the

21 person in the foreground. This is Sgt. Voltaire Gomez.

22 Sergeants Gomez is in the process of smelling one of these

23 bottles filled with chemicals that we found and he said that

24 it hurt his nasal passages. That's myself. That's myself

25 using the flashlight because Sgt. Capacete said there was

1290

1 lack of light.

2 Sgt. Gomez continues to make inventory and using

3 tape marking evidence. Lt. Mike Cruz and myself. This

4 process is marked by Sgt. Gomez. These are more timers

5 underneath the bed. It's still Sgt. Gomez.

6 This is the comfort room that's to the left when

7 you enter the apartment. I don't know who this person is

8 but I believe he's dusting for fingerprints. This is in the

9 bedroom. It's the table right underneath the mirror. This

10 gentleman is Gen. Ebdane: This is still Gen. Ebdane. This

11 is another one of those bottles that we found that had a

12 very pungent odor.



15 Q. Sir, you testified about assisting Officer Gomez

16 in preparing an inventory as part of the execution of the

17 search warrant; is that correct, sir?

18 A. I will show him the items and he would write down

19 these items.

20 Q. Now, sir, is it usual procedure to prepare an

21 inventory as part of executing a search warrant?

22 A. Yes, that's part of our instruction.

23 Q. Now, it is required under the Filipino law that

24 an inventory submitted to the Court that granted the search

25 warrant?

1291


2 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: May I have the question,

3 please, your Honor.

4 (Record read)

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. And simply stated, an inventory is a list of

7 items which were seized during, when the search warrant was

8 executed, am I correct, sir?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. And in this case, sir, what did you do in

11 preparing this inventory?

12 A. I didn't make inventory myself. It was Sgt.

13 Gomez.

14 Q. And what did you do yourself concerning the

15 inventory?

16 A. My job that night is to display the items found

17 during the search so that he could list them down.

18 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, I'd like to show

19 the witness a document.

20 THE COURT: Yes, show it to counsel.

21 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: May I ask, your Honor, the two

22 pages be marked.

23 THE COURT: Let's get one thing done at a time.

24 Show it to the witness, the document which will be marked

25 as --

1292

1 Q. Sir, do you recognize what is contained in these

2 two pages?


4 again, please?

5 THE COURT: Sure. Sir, do you recognize what is

6 contained in these two pages?

7 A. I believe it's Sgt. Gomez who recognize this

8 because it is he who made this.

9 Q. Sir, do you recognize the handwriting?

10 A. Perhaps really I could say that it is Sgt. Gomez

11 himself who could recognize the handwriting.

12 Q. Sir, do you recognize his handwriting?

13 A. Like I had said, I really believe that Sgt. Gomez

14 who can really testify to his own handwriting.

15 Q. But do you recognize whose handwriting it is,

16 sir?

17 A. Like I said, sir, I believe it is Sgt. Gomez who

18 can truly recognize his own handwriting.

19 Q. Sir, have you seen this document prior to today?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreter hear

21 that, please?

22 (Record read)

23 A. That's why I can't really commit to this because

24 it's, I believe this is really Sgt. Gomez who can recognize

25 this.

1293

1 Q. Sir, have you seen this document before?

2 A. As I said earlier, I believe that you should

3 really ask Sgt. Gomez about this document.

4 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, may I ask for

5 assistance in having the witness identify the document?

6 THE COURT: Sure. Have you seen the document?

7 No matter who wrote it, have you seen that before?

8 THE WITNESS: What I know is that he was writing

9 something and what I had seen was he was writing on a yellow

10 pad.

11 Q. Sir, isn't it a fact that you've seen Sgt.

12 Gomez's handwriting before today?

13 A. Like I said, sir, I believe it is truly Sgt.

14 Gomez who should answer that question.

15 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, may I ask your

16 assistance?

17 THE COURT: Yes. Have you ever seen Sgt. Gomez's

18 writing ever, not this piece of paper, ever?


20 Q. Now, sir, do you recognize the handwriting on the

21 document in front of you -- withdrawn, your Honor. Sir,

22 does this document appear to you to be handwriting of Sgt.

23 Gomez?

24 A. It's similar.

25 Q. Now, was the original copy of this document

1294

1 prepared in the regular course of your duties?


3 THE COURT: Don't even bother going through that.

4 It doesn't fit.

5 Q. Sir, when did you last speak to Sgt. Gomez?

6 A. About what matter?

7 Q. When did you last see him in general, sir?

8 A. We all came together to the United States.

9 Q. Now, sir, did you have a chance to take a look at

10 the inventory which was prepared by Sgt. Gomez?

11 A. I didn't really. I wasn't really interested to

12 know that because it was not the work assigned to me.

13 Q. Sir, did you see the inventory which was prepared

14 by Sgt. Gomez before?

15 A. When he was, when we were at the Josefa building

16 and he was writing down inventory I saw him doing that act,

17 but afterwards I didn't really meddle with it any more.

18 Q. Sir, did you see the document which was prepared

19 by Sgt. Gomez during the search?


21 THE COURT: Yes. Already asked. Mark the

22 document, Defendant Yousef's Exhibit 2.

23 MR. KULCSAR: I believe it will be C1 and C2.

24 THE COURT: Sure, C1 and C2.

25 (Defendant Yousef Exhibit C1 and C2 received in

1295

1 evidence)

2 Q. During the search was a person by the name of

3 Elizabeth Saracho present?

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter needs to hear

5 the name, please.

6 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Elizabeth Saracho if I'm

7 pronouncing it right.

8 A. I don't know this person.

9 Q. Sir, is she the person who was in charge of the

10 Dona Josefa apartment at the time of the search?

11 A. I don't know because who coordinated the search

12 was Gen. Ebdane, not myself.


14 your Honor.

15 THE COURT: All right, ladies and gentlemen,

16 we'll pick up tomorrow.


18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1296


2 present)

3 THE COURT: Okay. Do you know how long you'll be

4 tomorrow? Who is going to do the cross-examination?

5 MR. UDELL: I am.

6 THE COURT: Are you?

7 MR. UDELL: Yes.

8 THE COURT: How long do you figure you'll be?

9 MR. UDELL: 45 minutes.

10 THE COURT: What?

11 MR. UDELL: 45 minutes. Don't pin me to it.

12 MR. GREENFIELD: I have to work it out tonight

13 because I don't know.

14 THE COURT: Well, is it going to be all day?

15 MR. GREENFIELD: I'm not, no.

16 THE COURT: All right. Do we have somebody for

17 tomorrow?

18 MR. SNELL: Oh, yes.

19 THE COURT: Who, pray tell?

20 MR. SNELL: Originally, your Honor the government

21 intended to call Lt. Mike Cruz as the next witness. Given

22 the cross-examination we've just heard, which we didn't

23 quite anticipate, that is, the videotape, we may reassess

24 that.

25 (Adjourned to Wednesday, June 26, 1996, 10:00 a.m.)

1298





24

25

1299


2 THE COURT: Sit down, sit down. My guess is that

3 someone today is going to make an application to poll the

4 jury or voir dire the jury or whatever. You want to do it?

5 Sure, go ahead.

6 MR. GREENFIELD: Yes, your Honor, based on what

7 occurred yesterday in Saudi, Arabia, I think it's propitious

8 that the Court conduct a voir dire with the jury to

9 ascertain if they're aware of it. If they are, would it

10 affect my client's interest in the course of this trial.

11 There is a lot of publicity on it. The President made a

12 statement yesterday talking about Muslims extremists. My

13 client's accused of being a Muslim extremist, and I think

14 fairness dictates that we ascertain if what occurred in

15 Saudi, Arabia would in effect taint the jury's rendering a

16 fair and impartial verdict in this case.

17 THE COURT: Anybody else want to say something?

18 First of all, there are various ways of handling it. One of

19 them is to go immediately to a complete voir dire

20 individual, you know with each one of the jurors and so on

21 and so forth, and if I do that today I have locked in their

22 mind the connection between these defendants and the folks

23 in Saudi, Arabia, and that's one thing that I certainly want

24 to avoid.

25 Now, I would not be adverse to telling the jury

1300

1 today, look, concentrate on what's going on here, not on

2 some place else. If you want me to, I will talk

3 specifically about Saudi, Arabia, but I'd prefer not to.

4 Possibly, possibly next week, depending upon what's going to

5 continue in the newspapers, I will talk to them about it,

6 but today I think is just the worst day to do it, because

7 that way we lock it in, and I don't think it's the time and

8 the place to do it.

9 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, the thought occurs

10 that possibly maybe a general statement this morning from

11 the Court with respect to occurrences outside the courtroom

12 having no connection.

13 THE COURT: Okay.

14 MR. GREENFIELD: I've seen the Court do it in

15 other cases and I think the Court is right, should there be

16 a whole lot more publicity in the next few days, and you

17 have to focus on it again next week, to make some general

18 statement at this point to disassociate anything to the

19 people in the courtroom at this time.

20 THE COURT: Yes, absolutely. Okay. Anybody else

21 have any comments?

22 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, your intention was in

23 any event after a few days to address the matter in some

24 way.

25 THE COURT: Eventually, yes, depending on what

1301

1 goes on. I have no idea what is going to happen in the next

2 couple of days, Roy, but my guess is that it is a wonderful

3 political year, everybody has to make the papers with

4 everything, so I fully expect to have all kinds of comments.

5 MR. GREENFIELD: Nobody has spoken to Eleanor

6 Roosevelt yet with respect to this.

7 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, unless Mr. Greenfield

8 feels strongly -- otherwise I would prefer to putting it off

9 a couple of days -- unless Mr. Greenfield feels strongly, I

10 have no problem with it.

11 THE COURT: About saying in general terms, look,

12 I want you folks to concentrate on what's going on here, not

13 about what's going on in other places in the world. What's

14 going on here has no connection whatsoever with other places

15 in the world. That's all I intend to say. That's what you

16 want, isn't it, David?

17 MR. GREENFIELD: Yes, that sounds fine, your

18 Honor.

19 THE COURT: All right. Let's go get the jury.

20 The video cassette that was played yesterday there was a

21 question as to whether it was in Taglog or it was in

22 English. The most English I heard it on were the names of

23 chemicals, which is the last thing that you want to impose

24 upon this jury, I assume they're coming up again, but I

25 couldn't, except for, I think acetone, that I saw yesterday

1302

1 and a couple of others I couldn't read. Then, again, I'm

2 and old man.

3 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, I have, or the

4 investigator has a second copy. Actually, the government

5 was kind enough to give me. It's all English and it appears

6 to be someone talking in English to someone else who

7 appeared to be writing down different items that appear on

8 the inventory.

9 THE COURT: This one is in Taglog, the one that's

10 in.

11 MR. KULCSAR: The first one I had, and I'm not

12 saying the first one I had was more Taglog than English.

13 THE COURT: Somebody translated it. I finally

14 figured out what "opo" means.

15 MR. GREENFIELD: What's that?

16 THE COURT: "Opo."


18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1303

1 (Jury present)

2 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

3 I trust you had a pleasant evening. I understand that the

4 marshals provided you newspapers in the morning. I believe

5 they do, right? And I assume that from time to time you

6 watch TV and listen to the radio.

7 An incident occurred which has absolutely nothing

8 to do with this case or with the people here. I want you to

9 understand that. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do

10 with it. I wanted to make sure you understand that your

11 decision will be based on evidence here and nothing else.

12 Anybody have any difficulty with that? Okay.

13 Kevin, would you be good enough to get the witness, Orlando

14 Ramilo.


16 interpreter.

17 THE COURT: All right, be seated. All right,

18 cross-examination, Mr. Udell.


20 BY MR. UDELL:

21 Q. Mr. Ramilo, you have been a police officer for 22

22 years; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. And you have risen to the post of being chief of

25 the bomb disposal or explosive disposal unit in the western

1304

1 district in Manilla; is that correct?


3 Q. And in that position you have people who work for

4 you, who take orders from you; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. And you train people, younger officers, in the

7 manner in which the job of being a bomb disposal unit is to

8 be done; is that correct?


10 Q. And obviously you take pride in the way you do

11 your job in the post that you've reached; is that correct?


13 Q. And you understand that you have certain

14 responsibilities when you go on a mission or go to a

15 possible bomb scene; is that correct?


17 Q. And it's fair to say that the first

18 responsibility is to render the area safe to make sure there

19 is no danger?


21 Q. Now, once that is done, is it fair to say that

22 your second responsibility is to preserve the area, to

23 preserve the integrity of the scene?


25 Q. And would that mean to make sure that thing are

1305

1 not moved around, things are not touched unnecessarily,

2 thing are not added or subtracted from the scene as you find

3 it?


5 Q. And then is your third responsibility to prepare

6 an official report with regard to your findings?


8 Q. And that report has to be as accurate and as

9 truthful as you can make it, is that correct?


11 Q. In order to insure that that report is as

12 accurate and truthful as you can make it you are bound,

13 you're duty bound to make that report the very day that you

14 made your observations?


16 Q. And that is so that you don't suffer from any

17 lapse of memory and the report can therefore be as accurate

18 as you can possibly make it; is that correct?


20 Q. And is it fair to say that your fourth obligation

21 is to provide truthful information regarding your findings

22 to any person or persons who has a right to know about what

23 you found; is that correct?


25 Q. So if you testify in a court of law you must be

1306

1 truthful about what you found before judges or juries; is

2 that correct?


4 Q. You must be truthful as to your superiors when

5 you recount what you observed and to the FBI if they become

6 involved in a case; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, sir. That's why I said the truth when I got

8 here to the United States.

9 Q. You got here to the United States 17 months after

10 the day that you made the observations in room 603; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes, sir. That's why when I came here I wanted

13 to clear my conscience.

14 Q. Now, when you went to room 603 on January 6th, it

15 was your intention to perform your duties in the way that

16 you've been trained to perform them just exactly as you've

17 just described them; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. But did it become clear to you at some time that

20 evening that your superiors were not going to permit you to

21 perform your duties that way?


23 Q. Well, you indicated it is very important to

24 preserve the integrity of the crime scene; is that correct,

25 or the scene, correct?

1307


2 Q. Now, you say at some point when you entered the

3 apartment you saw a computer on a sofa; is that correct?


5 Q. And in preserving the integrity of the crime

6 scene it would have been your intention to leave that sofa

7 exactly where it is -- leave that computer exactly where it

8 is on the sofa until it could be photographed or preserved

9 in some way?

10 A. I did not move that object. It was a higher

11 official who moved the object.

12 Q. Exactly. Had you been permitted to do your job

13 the way you learned to do it you would have left it right

14 there until it could have been photographed; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Nobody really gave me a hard time.

17 Q. But they moved it, didn't they?

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could I hear that again, sir,

19 the interpreter.

20 Q. One of them did, one of the Generals or one of

21 the higher-ups ordered some other person to remove that

22 computer from the sofa?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. And by doing that is it fair to say they changed

25 the scene from the way you saw it when you entered?

1308

1 A. To my knowledge these officials know what they're

2 doing.

3 THE COURT: Mr. Udell, the interpreter is having

4 difficulty if you pace back and forth. It's not for me it's

5 for them.

6 Q. You arrived at room 603 when with Capt. Fariscal;

7 is that correct?


9 Q. So we are clear, there was no attache case

10 outside the door at that time; is that correct?


12 Q. You were permitted entry into that room by an

13 employee of the Dona Josefa hotel; is that correct?


15 Q. There were already police officers in the room at

16 the time?

17 A. Could you please clarify that question? Are you

18 pertaining to the first visit?

19 Q. I'm pertaining to the first visit when you

20 arrived with Capt. Fariscal and your partner and an

21 individual, another individual who you did not know, were

22 there other police officers in the room already at the time?

23 A. The door was locked when we first got there, and

24 somebody opened the door and there were no, there was no one

25 else in there.

1309

1 Q. Did Capt. Fariscal tell you that she had been in

2 that room --


4 Q. -- that evening on a prior occasion?

5 THE COURT: Objection sustained.

6 Q. Now, when you entered the room you testified that

7 there were cartons and boxes immediately observable in the

8 area; is that correct?


10 Q. And were those cartons observable to you before

11 you got to the area where the kitchen was?

12 A. As you open the door you can see most of what's

13 in the living room.

14 Q. So the cartons were right there as you opened the

15 door; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, you can see it immediately.

17 Q. And you had no difficulty seeing this; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. You saw it before you got to the kitchen; is that

21 correct?

22 A. The boxes were right by the divider.

23 Q. Now, you indicated that you and your partner,

24 Mr. Mandigma did an investigation and searched the room; is

25 that correct, searched the apartment?

1310

1 A. We did an inspection.

2 Q. And in the inspection you said you found some

3 things under the bed and you found some things under the

4 sink, and you found some things on the top, in the cabinet

5 above the kitchen area; is that correct?


7 Q. Is it fair to say that things that you found

8 under the bed, which you say are the timers, are things that

9 were not immediately noticeable until you looked under the

10 bed; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, of course that's right, because they were in

12 the bedroom, sir.

13 Q. And the same thing with the pipe that you found

14 in the cabinet under the sink, under the kitchen area, you

15 had to bend down and look in it and reach for it; is that

16 correct?

17 A. As you open the door of the kitchen cabinet it's

18 right there.

19 Q. But with the door closed you couldn't see it of

20 course?

21 A. Of course not.

22 Q. And in fact it wasn't you that received that

23 pipe, it was your partner who opened the door and received

24 it, and showed it to you; is that correct?

25 A. He didn't take it out. When he opened the door

1311

1 of the kitchen cabinet he called me and showed it to me.

2 Q. You didn't see it until he called you over,

3 pointed your attention to it, and then you looked in that

4 direction; is that correct?

5 A. Because when he just opened that door it was

6 right there and since we were side by side each other I

7 could see it.

8 Q. Now, there came a time, sir, when you thought it

9 necessary to notify your superior, Lt. Cruz; is that

10 correct?


12 Q. And was that after you had completed your

13 inspection?


15 Q. And of course you were satisfied at that time

16 that the apartment was safe, there was no immediate danger

17 at that time, right?

18 A. At that time we had very special instructions.

19 Regarding, for example, an incident such as this, we had to

20 consider the fact that the Pope was coming and so if an

21 incident like this --

22 MR. UDELL: May I ask the question be read back?

23 A. -- we were to inform our higher superiors.

24 THE COURT: You want the question read back?

25 MR. UDELL: That's all right, the answer is fine.

1312

1 Q. Did you then, having completed your inspection,

2 prepare to do a report?

3 A. Do you mean a verbal report or a written report?

4 Q. Did you prepare to tell Lt. Cruz exactly what you

5 saw and then reduce it to a written report as is your duty?

6 A. The question to me seems rather confusing. You

7 seem to be talking about two separate items.

8 Q. All right. Was it your intention to tell Lt.

9 Cruz what you found?

10 A. Yes, sir, because that was the instructions to

11 us.

12 Q. And did Lt. Cruz arrive there?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. And you told him what you found, right?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Did you tell him you found an attache case in the

17 hallway with a pipe bomb inside of it?

18 A. No, sir.

19 Q. Because that wasn't the truth; is that correct?


21 Q. And would it have been your intention after you

22 left the apartment to prepare a report?

23 A. The first thing that we really did after we left

24 the apartment was to go out and render safe the pipe bomb

25 that we found.

1313

1 Q. Was the last thing that you would have done that

2 day would be to prepare a report which truthfully

3 represented what you saw?


5 beginning of that question, sir?

6 Q. Would it have been your intention for the last

7 thing that you did that day to prepare an official written

8 report which indicated truthfully your observations in

9 apartment 603?

10 A. While I was in the process of actually writing

11 the report I was given the instructions to insert a certain

12 portion into the report.

13 Q. And the instructions that were given to you was

14 to insert certain items which were not true; is that

15 correct?

16 A. The instruction given to me was to insert that

17 list.

18 Q. And they gave you a list of items which, to

19 insert, as things you saw, which you did not see; is that

20 correct?

21 A. There were many items that I saw. For example,

22 the pipe bomb.

23 Q. Did they give you a list which included items

24 which you did not see?

25 A. I was told to put that report and copy it and

1314

1 include it in my report.

2 Q. And were you told to put things in which you

3 would not have put in your report because you did not

4 observe them; is that correct?

5 A. That was the instruction to me.

6 Q. And you followed those instructions; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes, sir, these were the instructions to me by my

9 higher officer.

10 Q. You wrote a report which is headlined

11 Headquarters Philippine National Police, or something like

12 that; is that correct?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpret hear that

14 again? I'm sorry.

15 Q. All right. You wrote a report on official

16 Philippine police stationery; is that correct?

17 A. I would like, could I please request to see the

18 said report?

19 THE COURT: Is that 3522?

20 MR. UDELL: Can the witness be given a copy of

21 3522.

22 THE COURT: B.

23 MR. UDELL: B like in boy.

24 THE COURT: Here you go.

25 Q. You have that in front of you?

1315

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Now, does that refresh your recollection that the

3 report is on stationery used by the Philippine National

4 Police?

5 A. In our country we just type a form like this. We

6 don't have like what you have here prepared stationery.

7 Q. Did you type that form?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Did you type the title, for instance,

10 Headquarters Philippine National Police?

11 A. Yes, that's the heading for our group.

12 Q. And at the end of the report did you sign it?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. And did you type in your name and your official

15 title under the signature?

16 A. Yes, it is I who makes the report.

17 Q. Above your signature did you write the words:

18 Submitted for your information?

19 A. Yes, that is our format.

20 Q. And in fact, was the information contained in the

21 body of the report between where you typed in the title and

22 where you signed your name, in the middle is the

23 information; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. And the information, sir, is lies, is that

1316

1 correct?

2 A. That's wrong. Not all of it.

3 Q. Oh, not all of it is lies, but some of it is

4 lies; is that correct?

5 A. There is that portion that was ordered by me --

6 ordered me to insert.

7 Q. Did you testify yesterday that you saw Captain --

8 Lt. Mike Cruz come out of the bedroom with an attache case

9 and stick a pipe in it?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Does the report say that you saw Mike Cruz come

12 out of the bedroom with an attache case and put a pipe in

13 it, or does the report say something else?

14 A. This is the kind of report they wanted me to do.

15 Q. And what they wanted you to do was indicate that

16 there was an attache case left in the hall and that attache

17 case contained a pipe bomb; is that correct?

18 A. This is what I was told to write down.

19 Q. And what you were also told to write down was

20 that Capt. Fariscal was the one who found the pipe bomb,

21 found the attache case with the pipe bomb inside it outside

22 the door of 603; is that correct?

23 A. Those were the instructions.

24 Q. But you knew that wasn't true. You arrived at

25 603 with Capt. Fariscal, is that correct?

1317

1 A. These were the instructions given to me.

2 Q. There was nothing -- other than a possible door

3 mat there was nothing in front of the door of 603 when you

4 and Capt. Fariscal arrived; is that correct?

5 A. That's correct. I'm sorry, that's wrong, sir.

6 Q. Was there an attache case with a pipe bomb in it

7 in front of the door of 603 before you got into the

8 apartment?

9 A. No, sir. I was instructed by my officers to

10 write that in my report.

11 Q. Instructed by what officers?

12 A. Lt. Mike Cruz told me to write this portion in

13 the report.

14 Q. Well, after Mike Cruz got there, did other

15 officers of a higher rank than Mike Cruz get there?

16 A. Yes, sir. There were Generals, Colonels, Majors

17 and their aides.

18 Q. There was a Gen. Ebdane and a Gen. Canson, Col.

19 Razon and other people like that; is that right?


21 Q. And they told you to wait a while to stop and

22 they started to talk amongst themselves; is that correct?


24 Q. Well, did there come a time after the Generals

25 arrived and the Majors and the Colonels that Mike Cruz, Lt.

1318

1 Mike Cruz comes out of the bedroom with an attache case?

2 A. After they had their conversation.

3 Q. So Mike Cruz arrives, the Generals arrive, Mike

4 Cruz and the Generals have a conversation, and then Mike

5 Cruz goes into the bedroom; is that correct?


7 Q. Had you been in the bedroom before Mike Cruz went

8 into the bedroom?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Now, Mike Cruz comes out and he's holding an

11 attache case in his hands; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, sir. After they all were in conversation

13 and there was an order to render safe the pipe bomb.

14 Q. And you saw, you saw that the attache case was

15 opened at that time; is that right?

16 A. In what instance, sir?

17 Q. When Mike Cruz came out he was holding it and was

18 holding it?

19 A. What is open, sir?

20 Q. It was not closed, that you could see the inside

21 of it.

22 A. I didn't see anything like that. I saw him

23 carrying the case.

24 Q. Did you see him put something in the case?

25 A. What I actually saw, what I saw was that he

1319

1 opened the case, took the pipe bomb from the shelf, put it

2 in the pipe bomb -- put it in the case, and that's what I

3 saw.

4 Q. So the thing -- when you say, shelf, do you mean

5 the shelf on top of the kitchen area?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. So when Mike Cruz comes out of the bedroom with

8 the attache case the pipe bomb is still in the kitchen; is

9 that correct?

10 A. Yes, sir, we didn't move it.

11 Q. And Mike Cruz -- you were doing your job, you

12 were preserving the scene, but Mike Cruz and the Generals

13 wanted you to do something else; is that correct?

14 A. Actually what was important was that that pipe

15 bomb which was capped be rendered safe immediately.

16 Q. And Mike Cruz took that pipe bomb which had to be

17 rendered safe immediately and put it in the attache case.

18 Is that correct?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Well, how long, how much time passed between the

21 time that you and your partner, Mr. Mandigma, saw that pipe

22 bomb and the time that Mike Cruz and the Generals and the

23 Colonels and the Majors all arrived and had this

24 conversation? How much time passed?

25 A. We were given orders to implement our jobs as EOD

1320

1 and then after they had a meeting we were given orders to do

2 this work.

3 Q. Did you testify yesterday that after you finished

4 your inspection you went downstairs and called up the office

5 to try to get a hold of Mike Cruz?


7 Q. And that was after you saw that pipe on top of

8 the cabinet; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. So you didn't take any steps at that time to

11 render this thing safe immediately. You went downstairs and

12 called up Mike; is that correct?

13 A. That was because we were following our orders

14 which was that should anything happen we should inform our

15 higher authority first.

16 Q. And did you testify yesterday that Mike wasn't

17 there when you called him?

18 A. It's not that he wasn't there. The phone just

19 kept ringing.

20 Q. And did you testify yesterday that you went back

21 to the apartment and then you heard from Mike; is that

22 correct?

23 A. What I did was I called our desk officer and I

24 asked him to call Mike Cruz and Major Angeles up right away.

25 Q. Now, Mike arrived at 603; is that correct?

1321

1 A. Yes, he arrived.

2 Q. And he was your superior; is that correct?


4 Q. Did you point out this pipe that had to be

5 rendered safe to him immediately?


7 Q. And how much time passed after you pointed out

8 this pipe that had to be rendered safe immediately to all of

9 the Generals and the Colonels and the Majors until all of

10 the Generals, the Colonels and the Majors arrived?

11 A. We were waiting for orders.

12 Q. And how long did you wait for these orders?

13 A. I was a sergeant at that time so I was waiting

14 for orders.

15 Q. And while you were waiting for these orders this

16 pipe which you just stated had to be rendered safe

17 immediately, was laying there on top of the cabinet; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Because we were waiting for instructions.

20 Q. And then there came a time when the Generals and

21 the rest of the brass arrived and they had a conversation

22 with Lt. Cruz; is that correct?


24 Q. How long were they talking, if you can recall?

25 A. I wasn't really looking at my watch. I was

1322

1 waiting for orders.

2 Q. But while they were talking this pipe that had to

3 be rendered safe immediately was laying there on the top of

4 the kitchen shelf; is that correct?

5 A. But what we did was we actually informed them of

6 what we saw, so afterwards we just had to wait for orders.

7 Q. You informed them that you thought that the pipe

8 had to be rendered safe immediately?

9 A. We did inform them that we saw a pipe bomb there

10 sitting up there, and we had to wait for instructions.

11 Q. You informed them that a pipe bomb is dangerous,

12 it could go off it, could blow up, it could kill people?

13 A. They know about this kind of danger.

14 Q. And they stood around talking amongst themselves

15 deciding what to do; is that correct?


17 Q. And they decided that Lt. Mike Cruz should go

18 into the bedroom and come out with an attache case; is that

19 correct?

20 A. I didn't really hear with my own ears what the

21 order was that was given to him, but as for ourselves we

22 waited.

23 Q. But you saw him put the bomb, put the pipe which

24 could have been a bomb inside the attache case and close the

25 attache case, correct?

1323


2 Q. And gave it to you, and you went and rendered it

3 safe with some equipment that was given to you by the United

4 States; is that correct?


6 Q. But when you made out your report you didn't put

7 in your report that Cruz put the bomb, put the pipe in the

8 attache case. You put in the report that you found the

9 attache case in front of the room 603 where Capt. Fariscal

10 said it was going to be; is that correct?

11 THE INTERPRETER: I would like to have this read,

12 please?

13 MR. UDELL: I'll withdraw the question.

14 Q. When you made out your report you didn't put in

15 your report that Cruz put the pipe in the attache case, did

16 you?

17 A. I was given the instruction to do this with my

18 report.

19 Q. And the instruction also was, the report was to

20 say that the suitcase was outside room 603 and the bomb, the

21 pipe was already inside of it; is that correct?

22 A. I was given this order to write the report this

23 way.

24 Q. And the order was to say also that Capt. Fariscal

25 had found the suitcase with the pipe in it; is that correct?

1324

1 A. That was the instructions to me.

2 Q. And you were also ordered to say in your official

3 report that Capt. Fariscal was among official persons saw a

4 foreign person leave that suitcase in front of room 603; is

5 that correct?


7 Q. Now, did you ever personally look inside the

8 suitcase?


10 Q. Well, you say you had a device which renders,

11 which defuses any possible bomb; is that correct?

12 A. We have equipment given to us by the US

13 government.

14 Q. In using that equipment do you have to personally

15 open the suitcase?

16 A. What do you mean, sir? The question seems

17 confusing.

18 Q. Did you take the suitcase, press the clips and

19 open the suitcase and remove the pipe?

20 A. Lt. Mike Cruz opened it and handed me the

21 suspicious device.

22 Q. After he handed it to you you took it someplace,

23 correct?

24 A. We did this in the reclamation area.

25 Q. After you finished in the reclamation area what

1325

1 did you do with the suitcase?

2 A. I didn't really pay attention to that. After we

3 rendered it safe, Mike Cruz gathered together the pieces

4 from the bomb and we all headed back to the office.

5 Q. Did you ever look inside the suitcase to see if

6 anything else was in there besides the pipe?

7 A. No, sir, I didn't really pay attention to that.

8 Q. But on that very same day you indicated you made

9 a report in which you indicated the contents of the

10 suitcase; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, sir, because I was handed a list.

12 Q. And as part of the list of the contents of the

13 suitcase you indicated there was a plastic bag in there, a

14 thin plastic bag and it had Arabic writing on it, didn't you

15 do that?

16 A. He gave me a list and he said I should copy it.

17 Q. Well, you didn't pay attention to what was in the

18 suitcase. What you put in your report above your signature

19 that this suitcase contained a plastic bag; is that correct?

20 A. That was the instructions.

21 Q. And did you also put in your report that this

22 attache case contained certain coins?

23 A. Because this was all included in the list that I

24 was told to copy.

25 Q. So again you falsified your report to include

1326

1 things that you did not see; is that correct?

2 A. Such were the instructions.

3 Q. You wrote in your report, did you not, something

4 to the effect that the attache case was remotely opened and

5 turned out to contain the following: And then you put in a

6 list of objects; is that correct?

7 A. That was the instruction.

8 Q. And one of these objects you listed was a bag, a

9 paper bag that contained Arabic writing; is that correct?

10 A. I copied the list that was handed to me.

11 Q. You didn't write in your report, I'm copying a

12 list that's handed to me. You wrote in your report that you

13 opened the, the suitcase was opened, and it contained the

14 following items and you listed those items; is that correct?



17 Q. Did you indicate that that suitcase contained

18 coins from United Arab Emirates?

19 A. I copied the list that was handed to me.

20 Q. Well, you're a police officer 22 years; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes, I became a higher officer in 1995.

23 Q. And so you're experienced, you're experienced

24 enough to reach the point of becoming a higher officer; is

25 that correct?

1327

1 A. Yes, I became a higher officer in 1995.

2 Q. So you understand, sir, that when you're asked to

3 prepare a report which says that there is a suitcase which

4 is left someplace by a foreign person and that suitcase

5 contains not only pipe bomb, it contains something in

6 Arabic, and contains Arabic coins, that is done for a

7 purpose of establishing some type of evidence; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Sir, I really don't know what you would like to

10 come out. The question is too long for me to understand.

11 Q. All right.

12 MR. UDELL: May I approach the witness, please?

13 May I have this item marked as Defendant's A1.

14 (Defendant Murad's Exhibit A1 marked for

15 identification)

16 Q. Sir, have you ever seen that photograph before?

17 A. This is the first time I've ever seen this

18 picture, sir.

19 Q. Now, in 3522B to refresh your recollection, would

20 you look at what you put on 3522B as the list that was given

21 to you, and would you look at that photograph, and would you

22 tell us if that photograph represents what the inside of

23 that suitcase would look like if it contained the things you

24 said were in it?


1328


2 Q. Sir, what you put in your report was this

3 suitcase, a suitcase was found which contained a pipe, which

4 contained something with Arabic writing, and which contained

5 Arabic coins, was that correct?

6 A. This was the list that they asked me to copy.

7 Q. And you understand that they asked you to copy

8 that because they were manufacturing evidence to accuse

9 Arabic people of possessing this bomb; is that correct?

10 A. My job really doesn't cover that, sir.

11 Q. Your job doesn't cover your writing -- you're

12 saying that you saw a bomb in a suitcase on top of a piece

13 of paper with Arabic on it, and with coins in there, and

14 your job doesn't cover your understanding that this could be

15 evidence that the person who owned that bomb was of Arabic

16 descent or from an Arabic country?



19 Q. Do you understand -- I mean, is it a crime in the

20 Philippines to deliberately file a false report?

21 A. That's possible.

22 Q. And is it a crime in the Philippines to

23 deliberately testify falsely in a court of law?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. Is it a crime in the Philippines to manufacture

1329

1 evidence?


3 Q. To say that certain things were found in places

4 that they were not found?

5 A. I'm really getting confused by the question,

6 because I don't really know what you're asking.

7 Q. All right. If I may. Do you see this dollar

8 bill?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. You see it here on the counter?

11 A. I can see it seems like money, but I don't really

12 know if it's real money.

13 Q. If you were to file a report in which you said

14 you took this dollar bill from my pocket, instead of seeing

15 it on the counter, would that be false?

16 A. I don't think I would do that because this could

17 not possibly happen.

18 Q. You did it on January 7th, didn't you?

19 A. Because I was, because I received such

20 instruction.

21 Q. All right. So if the Generals and the Colonels

22 and the Marshals were in the back of the Court and they told

23 you to say you took the dollar from my pocket instead of

24 from here, then you would do it; is that correct?

25 A. I'm not a pickpocket, sir.

1330

1 Q. Unless the Generals told you to be one and then

2 you would be a pickpocket, wouldn't you?

3 A. I am not a thief, sir.

4 Q. Do you understand what a conspiracy is?

5 A. I can't really detail that.

6 Q. In your report you mentioned Capt. Fariscal; is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. And you mentioned that Capt. Fariscal left this

10 suitcase in front, this attache case in front of room 603;

11 is that correct?

12 A. I sense that the way you constructed the question

13 is erroneous.

14 Q. Well, Capt. Fariscal did not leave the suitcase

15 in front of 603. You know that?

16 A. What do you mean, sir? Are you pertaining to my

17 report or the question you seem to be asking?

18 Q. Well, do you understand that you could not get

19 away with submitting this false report unless you have the

20 support of Capt. Fariscal?

21 A. What kind of help, sir?

22 Q. Well, if Capt. Fariscal was to see this report or

23 be confronted by it, and say, how could he say I left the

24 suitcase with a bomb in it in front of 603? That isn't

25 true. I didn't do that. Wouldn't that render your report

1331

1 false?


3 Q. And you knew just as you were going to follow the

4 instructions that Capt. Fariscal would also follow the

5 instructions; is that correct?


7 Q. Now, how many other police officials were in

8 apartment 603 when Lt. Cruz came out with the attache case

9 and put the pipe from the kitchen inside of it?

10 A. There were many.

11 Q. And every single one of those people would know

12 that this report is false, is that correct?



15 Q. Is it fair to say that you know you could not

16 have submitted this false report unless you had the support

17 of every one of those people in the room?

18 A. I would like to request a more direct question,

19 because this is very confusing.

20 Q. Do you understand that you were falsifying this

21 false report, you were participating in a conspiracy by

22 every police officer in room 603 to falsify evidence?



25 MR. UDELL: I'm sorry.

1332

1 THE COURT: He said he objects and I sustained

2 it. It's 11:30. We'll take our morning break.

3 (Recess)



6 interpreter.


8 BY MR. UDELL:

9 Q. Mr. Ramilo, was one of the things, one of the

10 items that your superiors told you to include as having

11 found in the attache case a second pipe?

12 A. Yes, this is the list that was given to me to

13 copy.

14 Q. So basically it's your testimony that you were

15 given the list, you gave no thought to what was on the list,

16 you just copied it down, and put it in your report; is that

17 correct?

18 A. This was the order that was given to me, sir.

19 Q. Now, you indicated at some point a search warrant

20 was applied for; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, I was with them.

22 Q. Did you personally apply for the warrant?

23 A. No, sir.

24 Q. Have you ever in your experience applied for a

25 search warrant as a police officer in the Philippines?

1333

1 A. No, sir.

2 Q. Did you see the application for the search

3 warrant?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. There came a time when you indicated you spoke to

6 representatives from the FBI?

7 A. Yes, sir, we were invited.

8 Q. And when you say, "we," who is the we?

9 A. May I say the names?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. By we I mean Lt. Mike Cruz, myself, Sgt.

12 Capacete, Sgt. Voltaire Gomez, and Sgt. Mandigma.

13 Q. Were all of these people, excepting yourself and

14 excepting Lt. Mike Cruz, were all these people in the

15 apartment when Lt. Mike Cruz brought the attache case from

16 the bedroom?

17 A. Two of them were not in there.

18 Q. Sgt. Gomez was in the apartment, was he not?


20 Q. Your partner, Mr. Mandigma, was in the apartment,

21 was he not?

22 A. Yes, he is my partner.

23 Q. And Mandigma was mentioned in your report, the

24 report you filed on January 7th, was he not?


1334

1 Q. And did you discuss your report with him?


3 again, please?

4 Q. Did you discuss your report or show him your

5 report before you and he went to the FBI?

6 A. Once this report was done I was given the

7 instruction that I should file this said report in our

8 office.

9 Q. Your partner, Mr. Mandigma, arrived with you and

10 Capt. Fariscal when you went to room 603 on January 7th; is

11 that correct, the first time?

12 A. Where were we coming from?

13 Q. Were you coming from Capt. Fariscal's office at

14 that time?

15 A. We were all together, sir.

16 Q. And as you said there was no suitcase in front of

17 the door at that time; is that correct?

18 A. Like I said, sir, I was given the instruction to

19 include that in my report.

20 Q. And Sergeant -- Mr. Mandigma, was he in the

21 apartment when Lt. Cruz came out of the bedroom with the

22 suitcase and stuck the bomb in it; is that correct?

23 A. Sgt. Mandigma and I were standing side by side.

24 Q. And was he with you when you were given this list

25 to put into your report?

1335

1 A. I don't remember because I was writing on the

2 table at that time.

3 Q. Do you remember if he was with you when you

4 actually typed up this report which you now say contains

5 some falsehoods?

6 A. I believe he was not beside me because I was

7 alone in the room when I was typing.

8 Q. Was it your expectation that the FBI would ask

9 you questions about what you recovered in room 603 on

10 January 7th?

11 A. We had no idea what they were going to ask us

12 when we were invited.

13 Q. You're saying you had no expectation that they

14 were interested in what occurred in apartment 603 on January

15 7th?


17 that again, sir.

18 Q. Is it your testimony that you had no expectation

19 that they would be asking you about the incident of January

20 7th?

21 A. We were instructed that we were being invited and

22 that we should go.

23 Q. Who instructed you that you were being invited?

24 A. Lt. Mike Cruz informed us that we were being

25 invited to the embassy.

1336

1 Q. And Lt. Mike Cruz went also, did he not?

2 A. Yes, we were all together.

3 Q. And did you discuss with Mike Cruz what you were

4 going to say to the FBI?

5 A. We couldn't really do that because we didn't know

6 what we were going to be asked.

7 Q. Well, are you saying that you never discussed

8 with Mike Cruz that you were going to stick to the script

9 when the FBI asked you what you found?

10 A. When we were on our way there we didn't discuss

11 anything like this. All that we know was that we were being

12 invited.

13 Q. Did you discuss with Mike Cruz or anyone else

14 that you were not going to tell the FBI that Mike Cruz was

15 the one who put the pipes into the suitcase?


17 Q. Did you discuss with Mike Cruz before you spoke

18 to the FBI whether or not you were going to tell the FBI

19 that you saw Cruz putting the pipe in the suitcase instead

20 of what you wrote in the report?

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter would really

22 like to request that the question be shortened. Thank you,

23 sir.

24 Q. Did you discuss with Mike Cruz what you would say

25 about how the pipe got into the suitcase?

1337

1 A. We were not really able to discuss this because

2 we didn't know what they were going to ask us when we, when

3 we got invited.

4 Q. I understand that when you say "we" that based on

5 your conversation with Mr. Cruz, you believed he didn't know

6 what the FBI was going to ask you about either?

7 A. What we understood was that we were being invited

8 by the FBI to the US Embassy. That's what we know.

9 Q. Is it your testimony that you and Mr. Cruz had no

10 idea what they were going to ask you about?


12 Q. Were you asked to bring your official report with

13 you when you went to speak to the FBI?

14 A. I'm really baffled how my report got here.

15 Q. Are you saying that you haven't seen your report

16 between the time you made it and now?

17 A. This report as I know was in our office.

18 Q. Did you keep a copy of it after you filed it?

19 A. Everything's in the office, sir.

20 Q. Again, is it your testimony you did not bring

21 your report to the FBI when you went there?

22 A. What I remember is that I did not bring any paper

23 with me.

24 Q. You testified yesterday, and you were asked on a

25 number of occasions, whether or not you lied to the FBI, and

1338

1 do you recall continually saying you stuck with your report

2 when you spoke to the FBI? Was that your testimony

3 yesterday?


5 Q. Did the FBI, either Agent Pellegrino or Agent

6 Ortega ask you if you filed your report?

7 A. What I remember is that they didn't ask me

8 anything like that.

9 Q. And your recollection is they never asked you if

10 you filed it, they never asked to see it, they never asked

11 if any such report existed?

12 A. What I remember is the conversation didn't go to,

13 in this direction, whether I made the report or not.

14 Q. Well, do you remember conversation going to a

15 direction where you told the FBI that you found this attache

16 case outside the apartment and it contained two pipes?

17 A. Could you please repeat the question, sir?

18 Q. Do you remember telling the FBI that you found

19 the attache case outside of the apartment and the attache

20 case contained two pipes?

21 A. What I remember is that I stayed with the way I

22 was told to write this particular portion of the report.

23 Q. Well, you indicated earlier that you were

24 basically just given a list and you copied down the list

25 without paying much attention to it; is that correct?

1339


2 Q. And you testified that after you made this report

3 you never saw it again?


5 Q. Well, after you filed the report on January 7th,

6 did you see that report between January 7th and March 1st

7 when you spoke to the FBI?

8 A. What happened was when I finished this report I

9 filed it in the filing cabinet.

10 Q. And you testified that neither you, nor Lt. Mike

11 Cruz had any idea what the FBI was going to talk to you

12 about when you were summoned; is that correct?

13 A. What I was told was that we were invited.

14 Q. But somehow you knew enough or you remembered

15 enough to tell the FBI that in the attache case was two

16 pipes; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, sir, that was what I was told to write in

18 the report.

19 Q. And somehow you knew enough to remember to tell

20 the FBI that the attache case was found outside of room 603;

21 is that correct?

22 A. I was following what was, what I was ordered to

23 write in the report.

24 Q. And you're telling us nobody prepared you for

25 your interview with the FBI; is that correct?

1340

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpret hear that

2 again?

3 Q. Are you telling us now that nobody prepared you

4 for your interview with the FBI?

5 A. What do you mean prepared, sir?

6 Q. Withdraw the question.

7 Do you understand, and I don't mean to -- let me

8 say. You understand what the FBI is, do you not?

9 A. Do you pertain to the meaning?

10 Q. Well, you understand the FBI to be a police

11 investigatory organization in the United States?

12 A. Maybe it's like that.

13 Q. And the fellow sitting over there, Agent

14 Pellegrino, he was there when they spoke to you; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Where, sir?

17 Q. At the meeting on March 1, 1995.

18 A. I'm really not certain as to the date when we

19 were invited to the embassy, sir.

20 Q. Well, whenever it is that you went there was

21 Agent Pellegrino, Special Agent Pellegrino present?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. And did you understand him to be a Special Agent

24 with the FBI?

25 A. He introduced himself as a member of the FBI.

1341

1 Q. And he then commenced to ask you questions; is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. And yourself being an investigator police officer

5 for 21 years, 22 years, you understood that he would be

6 preparing a report based on your interview, is that correct?

7 A. I don't understand their system, sir.

8 Q. Your system is when you conduct an investigation

9 you prepare a report; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. And is it your understanding the information that

12 you gave to the FBI was false, was it not?

13 A. I followed the instructions to me in making this

14 report and I stuck to that portion.

15 Q. So based on your following the instructions we

16 have an official report filed by you with the Philippine

17 National Police which is official looking, but it's false;

18 is that correct?

19 A. Not the whole report, sir.

20 Q. And we have whatever the FBI did based on your

21 lies to them which is also official but is false; is that

22 correct?


24 Q. After speaking to the FBI did you ever speak to

25 any other American officials while were you in the

1342

1 Philippines?

2 A. When, sir?

3 Q. After March 1, 1995, and before June, 1996.

4 A. Yes, sir. They came to the office of Major

5 Angeles and spoke to us.

6 Q. Who came to the office?

7 A. One of them was Special Agent Frank Pellegrino

8 and I don't remember who the other person was, but I

9 remember Frank Pellegrino because he gave me business card.

10 Q. And as best you can can you give us a general

11 idea of when that was?

12 A. What, sir?

13 Q. When Special Agent Pellegrino and the other

14 fellow came to the office and gave you a business card?

15 A. Special Agent Pellegrino handed me his business

16 card during our first meeting at the embassy.

17 Q. Can you tell us when, as best you can tell us,

18 the second meeting was?

19 A. I can't really tell the day nor the date but I

20 believe it was one of the early months of this year.

21 Q. And did you talk to them again about what

22 happened on January 7, 1995?

23 A. I stuck with the instructions as written in the

24 report.

25 Q. So, again, you told them what you were told to

1343

1 say, rather than what actually happened; is that correct?

2 A. I stuck to the report that I was told to write.

3 Q. So is it fair to say then that on two occasions

4 in the Philippines you stuck with the report rather than

5 with the truth in conversations with the FBI?

6 A. I stuck to that portion of the report that I was

7 told to make.

8 Q. All right. Now, did there come a time when you

9 learned that you would be coming to America as a possible

10 witness?

11 A. Yes, toward the end of May.

12 Q. Now, prior to that time did you ever meet

13 Mr. Snell here and Mr. Garcia?

14 A. I don't remember, I didn't remember their names,

15 but I think I recognized them when we were in the embassy.

16 Q. Did you meet them in the Philippines?

17 A. Yes, we saw each other.

18 Q. And did you talk -- you spoke to both of them or

19 either one of them, or who?

20 A. I think they were there. I'm not sure.

21 Q. Do you remember when you came to the United

22 States for this case?

23 A. The 5th of June, sir.

24 Q. And you came with Lt. Mike Cruz?

25 A. We were a group.

1344

1 Q. And you came with Sgt. Gomez?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. And you came with Officer Ariel Fernandez?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. And other people in the group; is that correct?

6 A. We were about five.

7 Q. Now, by this time is it fair to say that you knew

8 why you were being summoned to America?


10 that question again, please?

11 Q. Is it fair to say that at this time as

12 distinguished from when you were first invited come to the

13 FBI on March 1st, you knew what was going to happen in the

14 United States; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. You knew you were going to be asked questions

17 about what you saw and where you saw it on January 7, 1995?


19 Q. And between the 5th of June and the 17th of June

20 did you discuss with Lt. Cruz and Sgt. Gomez that you were

21 going to stick to the story that was in your report?

22 A. We did not discuss it, the three of us did not

23 discuss this. On the 17th of June, Lt. Mike Cruz and I

24 talked.

25 Q. Well, between the 5th of June and the 17th of

1345

1 June did you have any conversation with either of these two

2 prosecutors?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. And did Mr. Snell, the fellow sitting closest to

5 you, speak to you?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. And did you go over your testimony with him or

8 your possible testimony?

9 A. He asked us again about all the happenings.

10 Q. And were you alone when he interviewed you or was

11 Mr. Cruz in the room also?

12 A. There were many occasions, there were some

13 occasions when many of us were together and then there were

14 some occasions when we would talk with him alone.

15 Q. And this was before the 17th; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. And he asked you about what happened on June --

18 I'm sorry, on January 7, 1995?


20 Q. And when you told him you told him what you were

21 instructed to say rather than what the truth was; is that

22 correct?

23 A. What do you mean, sir, before the 17th?

24 Q. Well, you said that you got here on the 5th, you

25 spoke to the prosecutor between the 5th and the 17th, but it

1346

1 was only on the 17th that you and Mike Cruz decided that

2 your conscience was getting the best of you and you had to

3 tell the truth; is that correct?

4 A. We felt that before we would sit, we would be on

5 the witness stand we would like our conscience to be free

6 and so we decided to speak to them.

7 Q. So you understood when you first spoke to the

8 prosecutors that you were going to be on the witness stand,

9 right?


11 Q. And you understood that the prosecutors wanted to

12 talk to you first so they could tell you the questions they

13 were going to ask so it would go smoothly; is that correct?

14 A. Their constant instruction to us was that we

15 should just tell the truth.

16 Q. Tell the truth; is that correct?


18 Q. But initially you didn't come here to tell the

19 truth. You came here to tell what the people in the

20 Philippines told you to tell; is that correct?

21 A. I really can't blame the people in the

22 Philippines. What I did was I stuck to write in this

23 portion of the report.

24 Q. And what you were told to write in the portion,

25 that portion of that report was what you were going to tell

1347

1 these people, these jurors what was the truth; is that

2 correct?

3 A. When we got here we decided to tell the truth.

4 It is very difficult to speak when one's conscience is

5 weighed down.

6 Q. So before your conscience got the best of you, in

7 the 17 months before your conscience got the best of you, it

8 was your intention because of what your superiors told you

9 to do to lie to these people; is that correct?

10 A. What do you really mean, sir?

11 Q. You were going to tell these people what your

12 superiors told you to say in the report.

13 A. That's why, sir, I would like to repeat, before

14 we got here to the stand we decided that we would like to

15 tell the prosecutors like Mr. Snell what actually happened.

16 Q. The first time you spoke to Mr. Snell did you

17 tell him what happened?

18 THE COURT: It's now 25 minutes to 1, Mr. Udell.

19 We're going to take a lunch break.


21

22

23

24

25

1348


2 present)

3 THE COURT: How much longer?

4 MR. UDELL: Actually, your Honor, I'm trying to

5 ask him the last question. I may be finished. Not longer

6 than a minute.

7 THE COURT: How long do you expect to be?

8 MR. GREENFIELD: At least the rest of the

9 afternoon.



12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1349


2 2:00 p.m.



5 interpreter.


7 BY MR. UDELL:

8 Q. Mr. Ramilo, do you know if an Officer Edilberto

9 Capacete was present in the room 603 when Lt. Cruz came out

10 of the bedroom with the suitcase?

11 A. He wasn't, sir.

12 Q. He wasn't. Was he ever in the room, did you ever

13 see him in the room that evening prior to that day, prior to

14 the time that you returned with the full team and the search

15 party?


17 THE COURT: I'm not sure I understand it either.

18 Q. Did you see Mr. Capacete in the room, in room 603


20 A. He was with us when we went back to the

21 apartment, when the other officers were carrying search

22 warrant.

23 Q. Was he ever there before that time, do you

24 recollect?

25 A. No, sir.

1350

1 Q. One other question. When you spoke to the FBI in

2 March of 1995, was Assistant US Attorney Mr. Garcia present,

3 do you recall?

4 A. I don't really remember the date that you're

5 mentioning and who, in what place, what this meeting is

6 supposed to have occurred.

7 Q. Did you ever see Assistant US Attorney Garcia in

8 the Philippines?

9 A. Maybe I saw him.

10 MR. UDELL: No further questions.

11 THE COURT: David.




15 A. Good afternoon, too, sir.

16 Q. Your present rank is?

17 A. I'm a police inspector.

18 Q. On January 7, 1995, were you a senior police

19 officer 4th grade?

20 A. Yes, sir, the equivalent of that is a sergeant.

21 Q. Sir, would it be fair on my part to assume that

22 you speak and read English fluently?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. And you you've spoken and read and written

25 English for many years?

1351

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Did someone suggest before you came to the

3 courtroom to ask that you use an interpreter in these

4 proceedings?

5 A. I believe I need one.

6 Q. You speak English fluently, correct?

7 A. In the Philippines the way we, the language that

8 we speak commonly is what we call Taglish.

9 Q. The report in question that you wrote on January

10 7, 1995, was that written in Taglish or was it written in

11 English?

12 A. It's in English, sir.

13 Q. Did someone suggest to you, sir, that you avail

14 yourself of the use of an interpreter in the course of this

15 proceeding, yes or no?

16 A. We told the prosecutors that we believe we need

17 one.

18 Q. And did someone suggest to you in the Philippines

19 that you suggest that to the prosecutors?



22 A. We don't know, sir.

23 Q. I'm talking about you personally. Did somebody

24 recommend or suggest to you that you ask for an interpreter

25 during the course of this proceeding?

1352

1 A. When we were speaking with the prosecutors here

2 in the United States they asked us if we needed one.

3 Q. Sir, my questions are directed to you, not we,

4 okay? All my questions are directed to what you did and

5 what you said. You understand that?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Is it your testimony -- withdrawn.

8 Did you not say a few moments ago that you

9 decided while in the Philippines that you would request an

10 interpreter here?

11 A. Only in the United States.

12 Q. Were you given any special instructions by

13 higher-ups in the Philippines to request an interpreter?

14 A. No, sir.

15 Q. And if a higher-up in the Philippines told you

16 not to admit to that, would you not admit to that, isn't

17 that correct?

18 A. The way people speak English here is very

19 difficult for us to understand.

20 Q. Sir, with respect to what occurred in January of

21 1995, did you ever receive an order from a higher-up within

22 the Philippine National Police department to file no reports

23 in this case?

24 A. I did not talk to any very high officials at that

25 time. The only person who told me about this order was Lt.

1353

1 Mike Cruz.

2 Q. Sir, my question to you is, in January of 1995,

3 did you receive an order from a higher-up to file no reports

4 in this case?

5 A. I didn't receive anything from them.

6 Q. Sir, you would agree that in the course of good

7 police procedure reports are important, correct?

8 A. I know that, sir.

9 Q. Among the reasons you file reports is to inform

10 others within the Police Department of what occurred,

11 correct?


13 Q. It's to aid other police officers who may be

14 helping in the investigation?

15 A. It's possible, sir.

16 Q. And if the time came when you had to testify in

17 court you can use the report to refresh your recollection,



20 Q. But, also, once you've written the report it's

21 been memorialized, it's written, correct?

22 A. What do you mean by that question?

23 Q. If you write on a piece of paper that you saw

24 something happen, what you wrote on the piece of paper is

25 what you say happened, isn't that correct?

1354

1 A. Yes, that's right. If there, it is not the same

2 situation as my situation when someone told me what to do.

3 Q. Please sir, please don't anticipate my next

4 question. Answer the one that's in front of you, okay?

5 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, I object to that. I

6 think that wasn't called for.



9 Q. When you prepare --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Would you repeat for the

11 interpreter what you said?

12 Q. I'll repeat the question. When you prepare a

13 report the report is supposed to reflect what actually

14 occurred, isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. And once you've prepared that report you're bound

17 by what's in it as to what you say occurred, isn't that

18 right?


20 Q. Sir, I believe you've testified previously that

21 late May, 1996, was the first time you learned you were

22 coming to the United States to testify in this case. Is

23 that a fair statement on my part?


25 Q. Now, who informed you that you were coming to the

1355

1 United States?

2 A. Two FBI agents went to our office.

3 Q. Who personally informed you that you were coming

4 to the United States?

5 A. The two FBI agents.

6 Q. Did you have any conversations whatsoever with

7 any higher-ups in the Philippine National Police as to the

8 fact that you were coming to the United States?

9 A. When the two FBI agents came to our office we

10 headed into Gen. Ebdane's office.

11 Q. Excuse me?

12 A. When the two FBI agents went to our office we all

13 headed to Gen. Ebdane's office.

14 Q. With the FBI agents in tow?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. And did you seek the approval of Gen. Ebdane to

17 come to the United States?

18 A. What I overheard was that the FBI wrote to the

19 Philippine National Police requesting us to come to the

20 United States.

21 Q. Did Gen. Ebdane tell you to come to the United

22 States?

23 A. What I know is that I was told that a copy of the

24 letter from the United States came to our office, and

25 another copy of the letter permitting us to come to the

1356

1 United States came to our office.

2 Q. My question to you is, did Gen. Ebdane --

3 THE COURT: They can't hear you.

4 MR. GREENFIELD: Can you hear me? I'm sorry.

5 Q. My question to you, sir, is did Gen. Ebdane tell

6 you to come to the United States, yes or no?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. He ordered you to come here, isn't that right?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. And he ordered the other officers in the

11 Philippine National Police to come here, also, as far as

12 you're aware of that, isn't that correct, sir?



15 Q. Are you aware of any other officers that he

16 ordered to appear in the United States?

17 A. What I know are the personnel of the EOD that

18 came in a group together.

19 Q. Capt. Fariscal, did she come to the United States

20 with you?


22 Q. You keep referring to Ebdane as a General. Is

23 that his rank in the Philippine Police Department?

24 A. The equivalent of General is what we call the

25 chief superintendent, also.

1357

1 Q. There is no rank of General within the police

2 department. His rank is chief superintendent, isn't that

3 correct?

4 A. There is, sir. The rank of General Sarmiento,

5 the rank of, for example, of General Sarmiento is Director

6 General, so we do have a General.

7 Q. And the only General you do have is the Director

8 General Chief of Police. Correct?

9 A. That is the Chief PNP.

10 Q. Chief Inspector is the rank that is not Director

11 General -- withdrawn. Director General is not an equivalent

12 to the Chief Inspector, is it?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Sir, the interpreter needs just

14 repeat it.

15 Q. All right, fine. The rank of Chief Inspector is

16 not equivalent to Director General, is it?

17 A. It's different now because the ranks in the

18 Philippine National Police have been changed.

19 Q. The fact of the matter is the ranks in the

20 Philippine National Police are Director General is the

21 number one officer within the Philippine National Police

22 Department, correct?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. And Deputy Director follows that, isn't that

25 correct?

1358

1 A. There are many rankings, there are so many new

2 ones, I don't know about this.

3 Q. Sir, when you learned you were coming to the

4 United States after the FBI left, did you have any meetings

5 with the higher-ups in the Philippine National Police and

6 receive any special instructions with respect to your

7 testimony?

8 A. No, sir.

9 Q. Incidentally, this occurrence that -- withdrawn.

10 You appeared first on January 7, 1995 in response

11 to a phone call you received; is that correct?

12 A. It was, there were two of us, myself and my

13 partner.

14 Q. Now, sir prior to the time that you appeared you

15 have no idea what happened or didn't happen at the Dona

16 Josefa apartment, isn't that a fair statement?

17 A. We arrived there when we got the call.

18 Q. Sir, after you completed your duties at or around

19 the Dona Josefa on January 7, 1995, until the time you

20 boarded the airplane to come to the United States did you

21 sit down with any high-ranking Philippine National Police

22 Officers and discuss what occurred at the Dona Josefa

23 apartments?

24 A. No, sir.

25 Q. So to the best of your knowledge between January

1359

1 7, 1995, and the moment you boarded the airplane to come to

2 the United States in June of 1996 no higher-ups in the

3 Philippine National Police Department gave you any

4 instructions or special instructions on what to say in this

5 courtroom?

6 A. I don't remember anything like that that

7 happened.

8 Q. Well, if it happened, would you remember it, sir?

9 A. I don't remember anything, that's why I say that.

10 Q. Now, sir, on January 7, 1995, you indeed

11 received, according to your testimony, special instructions

12 with respect to what happened in this case; is that correct?


14 Q. Inspector Cruz told you to lie in your official

15 report, isn't that correct?

16 A. He told me what to write.

17 Q. Is what you wrote the truth?

18 A. There's one portion that is not right.

19 Q. We'll get into the specifics of the report later,

20 sir.

21 The fact of the matter is, Inspector Cruz told

22 you to put information in the report that was not true,


24 A. He asked me to, he asked me to add some items

25 that were not true.

1360

1 Q. Now, sir, are you personally aware of any other

2 members of the Philippine National Police Department who

3 were also given special instructions to lie in this case?


5 THE COURT: No, I'll let him answer it. Go

6 ahead.

7 A. Who would lie?

8 Q. Well, you did, didn't you?

9 A. What he told me was, what happened was he told me

10 to add the certain portion to my report.

11 Q. And what you added was not true, isn't that

12 correct?


14 Q. So if it's not true then it's a lie, isn't that

15 correct?

16 A. That portion that was added.

17 Q. Sir, are you aware of any other member of the

18 Philippine National Police Department who was asked to do

19 the same things you had done by higher-ups?


21 Q. Now, sir, by putting untrue information in the

22 report you committed a crime under Philippine law, isn't

23 that correct?

24 A. That is possible, sir.

25 Q. Well, you're familiar with the revised penal code

1361

1 of the Philippines, aren't you?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. And you're also aware of your oath of office,

4 aren't you?

5 A. What particular thing did I swear to?

6 Q. Sir, you did take an oath of office to become a

7 police officer, did you not?

8 A. There is, sir.

9 Q. And among the things that your oath requires that

10 you enforce the laws, isn't that correct?


12 Q. To protect all people in the Philippines,

13 correct?


15 Q. You're to file truthful reports, isn't that

16 correct?


18 Q. And not to lie about what you observed or saw or

19 did, isn't that correct?

20 A. What particular thing are you referring to, sir?

21 Q. Didn't you lie in your report?

22 A. I was ordered to add that portion to my report.

23 Q. Is there a special provision in the revised penal

24 code of the Philippines or the Constitution of the

25 Philippines that says when you get an order from a higher-up

1362

1 to lie that it's okay to do so?

2 A. I am not a lawyer so that I don't know these

3 higher revised penal code of the Philippines by heart.

4 Q. You've been a cop for over twenty years, haven't

5 you?


7 Q. Is this the first time in twenty years --

8 withdrawn.

9 Have you ever received any special instructions

10 prior to this case to lie in a report?

11 A. In this particular instance.

12 Q. You knew that when you wrote that report if in

13 fact it's not true that you were doing something that was

14 wrong, isn't that right?

15 A. I was ordered by my chief to write that.

16 Q. And when you say, your chief, you're talking

17 about Inspector Cruz?


19 Q. Well, did you go to the Director General

20 Sarmiento and tell him, I was asked to fill a false report?

21 A. No, sir.

22 Q. Did you go to any higher ranking authority in the

23 Philippine National Police and say, my inspector, Mike Cruz,

24 made me file a false report?

25 A. No, sir.

1363

1 Q. Did you contact anybody in the Philippine

2 government and say, my immediate superior, Inspector Mike

3 Cruz, had me lie in a report that I filed on January 7,

4 1995?

5 A. No, sir.

6 Q. Is the first time that you mentioned this

7 allegedly false report June 17, 1996?


9 Q. Would I be correct in assuming that the first

10 time you mentioned to any law enforcement official that your

11 report was allegedly false was on or around June 17, 1996?

12 A. I told them when I got here to the United States

13 because I wanted my conscience to be free and clean when I

14 faced the Court.

15 Q. When you prepared that report in January of 1995,

16 you prepared that for what you believed to be a case that

17 was going to be tried in the Philippines; is that right?

18 A. I don't know, sir. All I was concerned with was

19 to make a report about that particular incident.

20 Q. You prepared the report as a police officer as

21 part of an investigation, isn't that right?


23 Q. And you prepared the report as a police officer,

24 the prospect of a trial to happen sometime thereafter, isn't

25 that correct?

1364

1 A. I was told to make the report in this manner and

2 to file it in the office.

3 Q. And you were told to make a police report by your

4 police superior, correct?


6 THE COURT: Yes.

7 Q. The purpose of the report was to create a record

8 as to the investigation you were conducting, isn't that

9 right?


11 THE COURT: I think we've been through it. But

12 I'll let him do it again. Go ahead, answer the question.

13 Read the question back, please.

14 (Record read)

15 A. It's possible, sir.

16 Q. Now, as to the events of January 7, 1995, if I

17 understand your testimony correctly, you were in your

18 office, bomb squad office, and you receive a phone call

19 approximately 1:30 a.m.; is that correct?


21 Q. And the phone call is for from an individual

22 named Fariscal. Is that correct?


24 Q. And she's a senior inspector in the Philippine

25 National Police Department, correct?

1365


2 Q. Had you known her prior to January 7, 1995?

3 A. Not personally, but I know that she is an

4 official of the western police district.

5 Q. And as a result of the conversation you learn

6 that there was a bomb supposed to have been found somewhere

7 in the Malate district of the Philippines of Manilla,

8 correct?



11 A. What I was told is that there they were

12 requesting EOD police assistance.

13 Q. Say that again?

14 A. What I was told was that they were requesting EOD

15 police assistance.

16 Q. Did you ask why?

17 A. The instructions was that we should head towards

18 police station 9.

19 Q. Sir, you get a phone call at your bomb squad

20 office from a senior inspector at about 1:30 a.m., correct?


22 Q. Is it your testimony you never seek to learn

23 during the course of that phone call the subject matter as

24 to why you're responding to that phone call?

25 MR. GREENFIELD: I'll repeat the question.

1366

1 THE COURT: Don't repeat it. Redo it.

2 MR. GREENFIELD: Redo it. That's even better.

3 Q. You speak with Senior Inspector Fariscal,

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. She called your office, the bomb squad office,

7 correct?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. She asked you to respond to somewhere in Malate,


11 A. They told us to respond to something that

12 happened towards station 9.

13 Q. Did you ascertain or try to ascertain from

14 Inspector Fariscal what you were going to respond to?

15 A. What Capt. Fariscal told us was you should all

16 come here because I have something for you to look at.

17 Q. She told you that she had what she believed to be

18 a pipe bomb, isn't that correct?

19 A. That's not true, sir.

20 Q. She told you she had what she believed to be a

21 suspected bomb, isn't that correct?

22 A. She didn't say anything like that to me.

23 Q. She said she had something that you should look

24 at?

25 A. What she called for was what we call an EOD

1367

1 police assistance.

2 Q. And EOD meaning?

3 A. (In English) Explosive ordnance disposal.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Explosive ordnance disposal.

5 Q. Did you try to ascertain before you responded

6 what that might be?

7 A. When we receive such a call we just go and

8 respond.

9 Q. But wouldn't it be important to know what

10 equipment to take with you if the bomb had already exploded,

11 or if it was a potential bomb wouldn't your response be

12 different?

13 A. Before we respond to any incident we already have

14 our equipment ready and we just take this equipment.

15 Q. And you're also told during the course of the

16 phone call that the location was 711 Quirino Avenue, isn't

17 that right?

18 A. The instruction given to us was to go to Station

19 9.

20 Q. Now, sir, isn't it a fact that not only you and

21 your partner went, but Inspector Cruz went with you to

22 Station 9?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, sir, could I have

24 that question read again?

25 THE COURT: Sure.

1368

1 (Record read)

2 A. Inspector Cruz wasn't there yet.

3 Q. Isn't it a fact that in your report of January 7,

4 1995, you said Inspector Cruz responded with you and your

5 partner to the 9th precinct?

6 A. May I please see that report again, sir?

7 THE COURT: Right here.

8 Q. You look at the first paragraph, last sentence,

9 sir.

10 THE WITNESS: Should I read this?

11 Q. Read it to yourself.

12 A. I included Inspector Cruz's name.

13 Q. Did he order you to include his name in the

14 report?

15 A. Because I talked to him, because I called him, I

16 included his name.

17 Q. The fact of the matter is when you prepared the

18 report on January 7, 1995, you said yourself, Inspector Cruz

19 and Mr. Mandigma all went to the 9th police station, isn't

20 that correct?

21 A. It was just Sgt. Mandigma and I who went to the

22 precinct.

23 Q. So are you saying that part of your report is not

24 correct?

25 A. See I included his name also, because he also

1369

1 went to the apartment when the call was made.

2 Q. That's not what the report says, is it? The fact

3 of the matter is the report says that you responded with

4 Cruz and Mandigma immediately after receiving the phone

5 call.


7 THE COURT: Getting into what the report says.

8 MR. GREENFIELD: And I'll offer it, your Honor.

9 MR. SNELL: No objection in that case.

10 THE COURT: 3522B is received.


12 Q. Now, sir, does your report not state, the

13 undersigned together with Police Inspector Jose L. Cruz and

14 Senior Police Officer Armisticio A. Mandigma immediately

15 responded?

16 A. To my understanding he also responded to this

17 call at the Josefa.

18 Q. Sir, the first paragraph reads as follows,

19 doesn't it?

20 At or about January 7, 1:30 a.m. Senior Inspector

21 Aida Fariscal of police station number 9 western police

22 district, PNP, called up this office requesting EOD

23 assistance regarding an alleged bomb. The undersigned

24 together with P Inspector Jose L. Cruz Jr, and SPO4,

25 Armisticio A. Mandigma immediately responded.

1370

1 Is that what your first paragraph says?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. The fact is he did respond with you and Mandigma,

4 isn't that a fact?

5 A. First it was just the two of us.

6 Q. When for the first time is it that Cruz goes to

7 the 9th precinct?



10 A. What I understand is that he went straight to

11 Josefa when I called him.

12 Q. But your report indicates otherwise, is that what

13 you're saying?

14 A. It was only the two of us with myself and Sgt.

15 Mandigma who went to Station 9 originally.

16 Q. So then the first paragraph in your report is

17 incorrect, is that what you're saying?

18 A. The name of Mike Cruz.

19 Q. Well, that fact is incorrect, is that what you're

20 saying?

21 A. That part is wrong.

22 Q. Now, sir, when you arrive at the 9th precinct you

23 and you say Mandigma, and, I assume, you meet Senior

24 Inspector Fariscal there, is that correct?

25 A. Yes, she was there waiting for us.

1371

1 Q. And the fact of the matter is she had a briefcase

2 with her, isn't that right?

3 A. No, sir.

4 Q. The fact of the matter is she had a brown Corolla

5 attache case with her, isn't that correct?

6 A. No, sir, she did not.

7 Q. Does your report indicate that at the 9th police

8 station Senior Inspector Fariscal turned over to you the

9 brown attache case?

10 A. How, sir?

11 Q. Third paragraph. Does your report indicate the

12 brown attache case was turned over to the EOD operatives by

13 Senior Inspector A. Fariscal for inspection investigation.

14 That's how.

15 A. This is what Lt. Mike Cruz asked me to insert.

16 Q. That part he asked you to insert also then? Is

17 that where he told you to put it?

18 A. This is what he asked me insert.

19 Q. He told you on January 7th to say that Senior

20 Inspector Fariscal gave you an attache case at the police

21 station?

22 A. He told me to write this down in the report.

23 Q. Well, I'm asking you, is what I just said what

24 you wrote down?

25 A. That's what Lt. Mike Cruz told me to write.

1372

1 Q. Did you say, hey, Mike, this is not what

2 happened. I can't put this down.

3 Did you say that to him?

4 A. He said do that, there are higher orders.

5 Q. When did he tell you to do this?

6 A. After all the incidents had happened we were in

7 the office waiting for further instructions.

8 Q. 1 o'clock in the afternoon? 11 o'clock in the

9 afternoon? What time? When did he tell you this?

10 A. Maybe after we had lunch.

11 Q. How long did it take you to compile this entire

12 report, these two pages?

13 A. I wasn't looking at my watch so when I finished

14 it, I finished it.

15 Q. Now, sir, did you also say in your report that

16 the attache case --

17 THE COURT: Are you moving on to something?

18 MR. GREENFIELD: This is the last question in

19 this area, your Honor.


21 MR. GREENFIELD: With respect -- I'm sorry,

22 Ms. Interpreter.

23 THE INTERPRETER: One moment.

24 Q. With respect to the attache case did you also

25 indicate in your report that it was remotely opened at the

1373

1 9th police station by yourself?

2 A. He told me to write that in my report.

3 Q. So that's another lie he told you to put in your

4 report, is that correct?

5 A. He told me to do this, so that's what I did.

6 MR. GREENFIELD: You want to break at this point,

7 your Honor?

8 THE COURT: Okay, ladies and gentlemen.


10 (Recess)



13 interpreter.



16 Q. Sir, when we broke I was asking you questions

17 with respect to what occurred in the 9th precinct, do you

18 recall that?

19 A. What's your question, sir?

20 Q. I was just trying to put you in the point of time

21 where we were when we broke, that's all it was.

22 Now, as I understand your testimony when it

23 indicates in your report that Inspector Fariscal or Fariscal

24 turned over the attache case at the 9th police station that

25 that's not true according to your present testimony; is that

1374

1 right?

2 A. That's true, sir.

3 Q. And Inspector Cruz told you to put in the report

4 that Fariscal gave you the attache case at the 9th precinct?

5 A. Yes, that was the order.

6 Q. But didn't you testify earlier this morning that

7 Inspector Cruz told you to say you found it outside the

8 apartment door?

9 A. I'm getting confused by your question because

10 it's not relevant to what's down here.

11 Q. No, I'm getting confused by your answer.

12 Sir, did you not testify sometime during the

13 course of your stay on this witness stand that you told

14 Special Agent Pellegrino in March of 1995 that you found the

15 attache case in front of apartment 603 at the Dona Josefa

16 apartments?

17 A. No, sir, I did not find the attache case myself.

18 The report, that portion of the report that I was ordered to

19 write said something else.

20 Q. My question to you is, did you ever tell Special

21 Agent Pellegrino that you personally found the attache case

22 in front of the apartment before you entered it?

23 A. I don't remember saying anything like that to

24 him.

25 Q. We'll get to that.

1375

1 Sir, the report also indicates that the case was

2 remotely opened. What does that mean?

3 A. I was told to write that in the report.

4 Q. What does remotely opened mean?

5 A. That's what I was told to put down in the report.

6 Q. As a bomb expert what does the term remotely

7 opened mean?

8 A. Sir, are you pertaining to the terminology we use

9 in the bomb disposal unit?

10 Q. I'm referring to the words you used in your

11 report.

12 A. Yes, that's what Lt. Mike Cruz told me to write

13 down.

14 Q. Well, what does it mean?

15 A. That's why I'm asking you also, sir, in turn that

16 are you questioning the terminology we use in the bomb

17 disposal unit?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. When we say remotely opened we mean that you are

20 the person observing the object is far in distance from the

21 actual object, but you can see it.

22 Q. You open it with your toe, or do you open it with

23 some sort of equipment? How do you open it?

24 A. We have instruments.

25 Q. So when Inspector Cruz told you to say that

1376

1 Fariscal turned over the attache case and you remotely

2 opened it, it was to create the impression that the

3 briefcase was opened in the vicinity of the 9th police

4 station in a remote fashion; is that correct?

5 A. That's what they told me to write down in the

6 report.

7 Q. And that's a lie.

8 A. That's not true.

9 Q. That's what you say is not true today, correct?

10 A. Yes, what's written down in the report.

11 Q. Sir, did you also indicate that after you

12 remotely opened the attache case you found some items in

13 this attache case at the 9th police station?

14 A. That's what Lt. Mike Cruz told me to write down

15 in the report.

16 Q. So whatever is listed in this report as to what

17 was found in the briefcase when you opened it, is also a

18 lie; is that right?


20 THE COURT: No.

21 A. The question is rather long for me. I can't

22 follow you.

23 Q. You want me to break it down for you?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. You say in your report a briefcase was opened in

1377

1 the 9th precinct, correct?

2 A. Yes, sir, that's what he told me to write.

3 Q. The fact as you're stating today is that no

4 briefcase was opened in the 9th precinct, correct?


6 Q. So whatever you have listed as being found in the

7 9th precinct in this report could not have happened

8 according to your testimony today, isn't that right?

9 A. I was told to write these items down in the

10 report.

11 Q. Were you also told to say the same thing in every

12 answer by any higher authority?

13 A. I didn't speak to them.

14 Q. Now, sir, you didn't open a briefcase at the 9th

15 precinct, correct?

16 A. No, sir.

17 Q. So you didn't find anything in the 9th precinct,


19 A. We spoke to Capt. Fariscal there.

20 Q. There was no briefcase to find anything in the

21 9th precinct, isn't that your testimony?


23 MR. GREENFIELD: I'll withdraw the question.

24 Q. Was there a briefcase in the 9th precinct?

25 A. No, sir.

1378

1 Q. Was there anything in a briefcase that you found

2 at the 9th precinct?

3 A. You say there is no briefcase.

4 Q. Does your report indicate you found something in

5 the briefcase in the 9th precinct?


7 THE COURT: The report can speak for itself.

8 Next question.

9 Q. Sir, at the 9th precinct did you find a piece of

10 writing pad with numerical inscriptions on it?

11 A. Like I was saying, sir, I was told to include

12 this in my report.

13 Q. And each and every of these items were not

14 discovered at the 9th precinct, correct?


16 Q. And each and every item that are reflected in

17 this report you were told to lie about by a higher

18 authority?


20 THE COURT: I think we've been through that.

21 Next.

22 Q. Now, sir, does your report also indicate that

23 after you received this briefcase and after you remotely

24 opened it, that you took it someplace?

25 A. The question's confusing to me, sir.

1379

1 Q. Look in your report, the last paragraph, sir.

2 THE COURT: On the first page.

3 A. I was instructed by Lt. Mike Cruz to include this

4 in my report.

5 Q. And is it your testimony now that everything

6 that's contained in this last full paragraph is not true?

7 A. I was told to include this in the report.

8 Q. And my question to you is, everything in this

9 report is not true, is that correct?

10 A. I was given this list to copy for this report.

11 Q. Did you also say that you took the pipe bomb

12 directly from the precinct to the safe disposal area?



15 Did you say the said pipe bomb was brought to a

16 safe disposal area where it was -- I assume it's supposed to

17 be -- where it was rendered safe?

18 THE WITNESS: When we were given the order to

19 render safe the suspicious device we were coming from that

20 apartment itself.

21 Q. Does the report not indicate --

22 I'm sorry, your Honor. Were you going to ask a

23 question?


25 Q. Does the report not indicate that after you

1380

1 opened the briefcase at the 9th precinct you then went to

2 the safe disposal area.


4 Does the report say the said pipe bomb was

5 brought to the safe disposal area where it was rendered

6 safe?

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, we did that after we got the

8 instruction.

9 Q. Sir, when you prepare a report is that report

10 prepared in a chronological order of occurrence?

11 A. What report are you talking about now?

12 Q. Any report that you prepare as a police officer.

13 A. Yes, sir, in order.

14 Q. Now, sir, in the first paragraph of this exhibit

15 you say you received a phone call, correct?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. The second paragraph says you go directly to the

18 9th police station, correct?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. The third paragraph says that an attache case was

21 turned over to you at the 9th precinct by Inspector

22 Fariscal, correct?


24 Q. Does the third paragraph indicate that Inspector

25 Fariscal turned over to you a briefcase?

1381


2 THE COURT: No, I'll permit that.

3 A. That's what I was told to write in the report.

4 Q. And does the next paragraph indicate you went to

5 a safe disposal area where it was rendered safe?

6 A. Yes, I was told to write that in the report.

7 Q. Now, is it fair to state that nowhere in

8 paragraphs 1, 2, 3 or 4 does it indicate you ever went to

9 the Dona Josefa apartments?

10 A. What are you pertaining to, sir?

11 Q. Your report, sir.

12 A. I was told to insert this portion in my report.

13 Q. So what you're saying is that this report really

14 is a fabrication, that there is no basis to believe what's

15 in this report?

16 Is that what you're saying?


18 THE COURT: Yes. He said what he said. Next

19 question.

20 Q. Now, sir, you took the pipe bomb, you say was a

21 pipe bomb to the safe disposal area, correct?

22 A. Sir, could you please clarify where I took that

23 pipe bomb from, because you maybe asking me again where that

24 pipe bomb came from.

25 THE COURT: No. You got a pipe bomb on January

1382

1 7, 1995, right?

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, yes, sir, at the

3 apartment.

4 THE COURT: Okay. That pipe bomb, did you take

5 to a safe disposal?

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, after we received the

7 order.

8 Q. Who went with you?

9 A. To what, sir?

10 THE COURT: To the safe disposal area.

11 THE WITNESS: We were three. It was Lt. Mike

12 Cruz, Sgt. Mandigma, and myself.

13 Q. Now, when you get to the safe disposal area, the

14 three of you, what did you do to render this alleged pipe

15 bomb safe?

16 A. We utilized an instrument we call the EOD

17 equipment. It's a gift from the United States government.

18 We call it a disrupter or a water cannon.

19 Q. Did you explode the bomb?

20 A. First what we wanted to do was to remove the caps

21 of this alleged pipe bomb.

22 Q. Did you do that?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. And you did that by means of this water cannon

25 that you described?

1383

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Did the bomb explode?

3 A. No, sir.

4 Q. Have you seen that alleged bomb since that day?

5 A. After we rendered safe this pipe bomb it was

6 taken back to the office, and Lt. Mike Cruz took care of

7 that.

8 Q. Now, sir, it's your testimony that nothing in

9 this pipe bomb exploded, correct?

10 A. Sir, do you mean when we were trying to render it

11 safe?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. It didn't explode, sir, because when the water

14 cannon bullet hit the caps, the cap flew away, and the

15 contents flew out, too.

16 Q. Were the contents recovered?

17 A. Yes, it was recovered, sir.

18 Q. Now, sir, did you see the contents?

19 A. Yes, sir, I saw it.

20 Q. Sir, the list that's on your report, is that what

21 was allegedly in the pipe bomb?

22 A. No, sir.

23 Q. That which is on this list was not in the pipe

24 bomb, is that what you're saying?

25 A. I was given this list to include in my report.

1384

1 Q. Was a Casio watch found in that pipe bomb?

2 A. No, sir.

3 Q. Yet on January 7, 1995, Inspector Cruz told you

4 to say that a Casio DBC-62 watch was found in that pipe

5 bomb?


7 Q. And the same is true for two Everready 9 volt

8 batteries?

9 A. Like I said, this list was handed to me so that I

10 could insert it in my report.

11 Q. And there's no truth to that list is your

12 testimony?

13 A. Like I said, this was given to me by Lt. Mike

14 Cruz to include in my report.

15 Q. And as far as you know he was told by higher

16 authorities within the Philippine National Police to include

17 these items in your report?


19 THE COURT: Rephrase it a little bit.

20 Q. Is it your testimony that Mike Cruz told you that

21 higher authorities told him to include --


23 THE COURT: No.

24 Q. -- these items in your report?

25 THE COURT: I'll permit that.

1385

1 A. What he told me was this.

2 Q. Now, sir, how long were you at the safe disposal

3 area rendering this bomb safe?

4 A. When we arrived at the site we got our equipment

5 ready. We fired the water cannon and when the caps flew

6 off. After that we gathered all the ingredients there and

7 we just went back to the office.

8 Q. Now, sir, to the best of your recollection --

9 obviously, I'm not asking you to give the exact time -- how

10 long does it take to go from the house in Malate where you

11 say the bomb was found, to the, I believe you called the

12 reclamation area, the safe disposal area approximately?

13 A. Sir, are you asking me about the time it takes

14 for us to travel from that area to that area at that time or

15 any time?

16 Q. That night.

17 A. It wasn't night, sir.

18 Q. I understand that. How long did it take to go

19 from 711 Quirino Avenue where you say you were to the bomb,

20 whatever you call it area, safe bomb area?

21 A. I believe approximately 15 minutes because there

22 was hardly any traffic.

23 Q. And how long were you there that evening at the

24 safe disposal area?

25 A. We didn't go there at night. It was almost dawn.

1386

1 THE COURT: Well --

2 Q. What time did you leave for the safe disposal

3 area?

4 A. I didn't look at my watch but what I know was the

5 morning light was coming.

6 Q. What time did you arrive at the apartment house?

7 A. It didn't take very long. We went to, from

8 precinct 9. Then we just went straight there, so it didn't

9 really take a look time.

10 Q. Would it be about 2 a.m. that you arrived at the

11 711 Quirino Avenue address?

12 A. Maybe not even 2 o'clock, because I got the call

13 from the police station about 1:30, and we made haste.

14 Q. Once you arrived in the apartment, say it's 1:45

15 a.m., once you arrive there, how long are you there before

16 you leave for the safe disposal area?

17 A. I can't really tell you 'cause I didn't know what

18 the time was. We were waiting for instructions.

19 Q. But your recollection now is it's almost dawn

20 when you leave the safe disposal area; is that correct?

21 A. Sir, I would just like to clarify. Leaving that

22 area or going to that area?

23 Q. I'll help you along. You testified a few moments

24 ago that there came a time when yourself, Inspector Cruz,

25 and the other gentleman, Mr. Mandigma, leave the apartment

1387

1 to render what you call the pipe bomb safe. Remember that?

2 A. Yes, sir, it was almost dawn.

3 Q. Approximately how long are you away from the

4 apartment before you return?

5 A. What instance, sir?

6 Q. The first time you're in the apartment, sir,

7 would it be fair to state you say you found the pipe bomb?

8 A. I'm getting very confused by your question

9 because you're pertaining to so many different places at the

10 same time.

11 Q. You want to take a rest?

12 A. No, sir.

13 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, might I suggest if

14 the witness is a bit confused that we continue this

15 tomorrow?

16 THE COURT: Yes. I think we can. All right,

17 ladies and gentlemen, you'll get a little early break

18 tonight.


20

21

22

23

24

25

1388


2 present)

3 MR. GREENFIELD: I'd just like to say I would

4 like to invoke the rule in Pliny the Elder, maybe a half

5 hour, maybe a little more.

6 THE COURT: I assume you guys will want a

7 redirect?

8 MR. SNELL: Not so far, your Honor.

9 THE COURT: Okay. Have somebody lined up

10 tomorrow.

11 (Adjourned to 10:00 a.m., Thursday, January 27,

12 1996)

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1390





24

25

1391


2 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Udell, you're standing up.

3 I assume you've got something to say.

4 MR. UDELL: Your Honor, before we proceed may I

5 make a slight application specifically with regard to the

6 witness on the stand. There is another person who has been

7 mentioned an awful lot during this witness's testimony. His

8 name is Lt. Mike Cruz. Evidently he's here. The indication

9 is that the government will not call him. But basically

10 during the entire time that Mr. Ramilo has testified the

11 essence of his testimony is one answer: I did everything

12 because Lt. Mike Cruz told me to do so. It's almost a

13 Nuremberg answer.

14 I think it's within the confines of Brady for us,

15 before this witness leaves the stand, to be given a chance

16 to see the 3500 material with regard to Mike Cruz.

17 THE COURT: Did you ever read 3500?

18 MR. UDELL: Yes.

19 THE COURT: Then you know it's not. You can't do

20 it. What does the 3500 say?

21 MR. UDELL: Ed I know what 3500 --

22 THE COURT: What does 3500 say?

23 MR. UDELL: It says on 3500 that we are entitled

24 to witnesses once they --

25 THE COURT: No, it does not. It says that no

1392

1 court shall ever order to turn over any documents concerning

2 a witness's testimony until after the witness has testified.

3 MR. UDELL: I'm making this request under Brady,

4 your Honor. I'm referring to the 3500 material, but I'm

5 making the request under Brady. If your Honor feels that we

6 should not get it directly, I would ask that the Court ask

7 that the government provide this information to you and you

8 peruse it before this witness leaves the stand. Again,

9 where is the harm?

10 THE COURT: This is Brady?

11 MR. UDELL: It could be. It would seem to be.

12 We haven't seen it.

13 THE COURT: Wait a minute. You're just taking a

14 shot in the dark that it's Brady. You know it's like

15 standing up and saying, oh, -- forget it. No.

16 MR. UDELL: There is a basis for the request.

17 The request --

18 THE COURT: There is a basis for the request as

19 to what? As to 3500 or Brady, or just standing up and

20 making a request and saying there is a basis to it?

21 MR. UDELL: The 3500 could be Brady, this is what

22 I'm saying. I have not seen it so I can not represent what

23 it is, but all I know is every answer this witness gives is:

24 I did everything I did, I committed falsehoods, I put down

25 made false reports, I said things that were not true and I

1393

1 did it because Mike Cruz told me to do it, and I only

2 stopped doing it because Mike Cruz told me to stop doing it

3 or the two of us discussed it. It may very well be that

4 there are things in information provided to the government

5 by Mike Cruz which are not consistent --

6 THE COURT: What you are asking for, whether you

7 know it or not, is, I would like to have all the 3500

8 material of all the people so that I can make up a defense,

9 and the answer to that is no. That's why Congress wrote it

10 exactly the way they did. The answer is no. Your

11 application is denied. Somebody else wanted to do

12 something?

13 MR. GREENFIELD: Yes, your Honor. Mr. Garcia

14 informed me yesterday that he will be offering certain still

15 photos taken of the videotape that was put into evidence the

16 day before yesterday, and among the still photos will be out

17 takes of, I believe, a photo of the Pope and Bibles, garb,

18 things of that sort. And, also, I think, and I may be

19 wrong, Mr. Garcia will correct me if I am, they intend to

20 offer the photos, the Bibles, the garb as evidence, also. I

21 would object for the reasons stated before, and the reason I

22 made my severance motion before throughout the trial. So we

23 thought we'd bring it to the Court's attention now obviously

24 rather than when the witness is on the stand.

25 THE COURT: First of all, I don't think

1394

1 Mr. Garcia is examining the witness. I think it was

2 Mr. Snell.

3 MR. GREENFIELD: No, it's the next witness.

4 THE COURT: Don't bother. The "don't bother" is

5 directed not to you, but to him.

6 MR. GARCIA: Yes, your Honor.


8 THE COURT: Get the jury and the witness in.

9 (Jury present)


11 interpreter.



14 Q. Sir, you testified over the past few days that at

15 a point you left the Dona Josefa building with what you

16 alleged to be a pipe bomb and you went to an area and

17 defused it or rendered it safe. Is that a fair statement on

18 my part?


20 Q. Now, when you leave the apartment with that

21 alleged bomb who was in the apartment?

22 A. Excuse me, inside or outside?

23 Q. In the apartment.

24 A. To my knowledge when we left everybody left the

25 apartment because it was the instruction of Gen. Canson for

1395 1 everybody to leave.

2 Q. And this is approximately dawn?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Now, the person who you say you gave the computer

5 that you say you found, was he in the apartment when you

6 left at or about dawn of the morning of January 7, 1995?


8 Q. You told this jury previously that you found the

9 computer in the apartment?


11 Q. And after you found the computer what do you say

12 happened to it?

13 A. When Gen. Canson and the other Generals arrived I

14 pointed out to them that I had found a computer.

15 Q. And what happened to that -- what time did the

16 Generals arrive by the way?

17 A. I don't know exactly what time that was, but

18 maybe I can say that approximately from the time we arrived

19 at the apartment it could be an hour or so after.

20 Q. Now, you say that after you spoke to the General

21 that you gave the computer to somebody; is that correct?

22 A. It was not I who gave the computer to someone.

23 Q. Well, did you see who it was given to?

24 A. Gen. Canson ordered one of his aides to take the

25 computer and take it outside the compartment.

1396 1 Q. Do you know who that person is?

2 A. No, sir, because he was in plainclothes.

3 Q. Was that person on the videotape that we viewed

4 earlier the other day?

5 A. I don't really know, sir.

6 Q. Well, you saw the videotape the other day. Do

7 you recall seeing him on the tape?

8 A. He wasn't there, sir.

9 Q. Now, sir, with respect to Defendant Shah's

10 Exhibit D in evidence, do you have that before you now, sir.

11 THE COURT: I don't think he does. I have a

12 copy. (Handed to witness)

13 Q. Do you have that now, sir?

14 A. Yes, this is my report.

15 Q. Will you turn to the second page. The second

16 page of Defendant's D in evidence deals with what occurred

17 in room 603 other than your alleged discovery of the pipe

18 bomb?

19 A. What are you trying to, what are you trying to

20 say, sir?

21 Q. I'm not trying to say anything. I'm asking you a

22 question.

23 A. I don't, I didn't catch your question, sir.

24 MR. GREENFIELD: Repeat the question, please.

25 (Record read)

1397 1 A. I didn't write it there.

2 Q. Does that paragraph, the first and only paragraph

3 on page 2, deal with your observations in room 603?


5 Q. Is there one word in there about you discovering

6 a computer?

7 A. No, sir.

8 Q. And you wrote this within hours of the time that

9 you were in room 603 allegedly?

10 A. Like I said, this is what they told me to write.

11 Q. Did Inspector Mike Cruz tell you, don't put the

12 computer into your report?

13 A. This is what he told me to write.

14 Q. Does Mike Cruz know how to make a report?

15 A. Yes, to my knowledge he does, sir.

16 Q. Did he make a report on January 7, 1995?


18 Q. Now, there came a time when you returned to the

19 apartment later that day after you had completed your report

20 to help execute a search warrant. Is that a fair statement

21 on my part?


23 Q. Now, when you entered the apartment was it in the

24 same condition as it was when you left it earlier that day

25 around dawn?

1398 1 A. It seems to me so.

2 Q. Well, the video that you saw the other day, does

3 that accurately depict the apartment the way it was when you

4 left it at dawn earlier that day?

5 A. It seems like that, sir.

6 Q. Now, sir, other than the computer and the bag

7 that you say you found, were there any other components of

8 the computer that you say you saw in the apartment on

9 January 7, 1995?

10 A. Because I'm not a very knowledgeable person

11 regarding the computer we just listed the other items that

12 we saw in the apartment.

13 Q. Well, you didn't list the computer anyway, did

14 you?

15 A. I don't know if Sgt. Gomez listed anything like

16 that.

17 Q. I'm not talking about Gomez. I'm talking about

18 you. Did you list it anywhere?

19 A. No, sir, because I'm not a person in charge of

20 making the inventory.

21 Q. Sir, you testified you were interviewed by the

22 FBI a number of times in 1995; is that correct?


24 Q. And you were interviewed for the first time by an

25 FBI Agent -- withdrawn.

1399 1 The first time you were interviewed by an FBI

2 Agent was by Special Agent Pellegrino; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, he was, it was with Special Agent Frank

4 Pellegrino.

5 Q. And did that interview occur on March 1, 1995?

6 A. I don't remember the date, sir.

7 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, if the witness could

8 be given a copy of 3522A, please.

9 THE COURT: Sure.

10 (Handed to witness)

11 Q. Sir, I direct your attention to the first

12 sentence in 3522A. If you'd read that to yourself and see

13 if that refreshes your recollection as to the date you were

14 interviewed by Special Agent Pellegrino.

15 A. Like I said, I just don't really recall the date

16 because I'm not a person who made this report, sir.

17 Q. And that which is in front of you does not

18 refresh your recollection after reading it as to what the

19 date was of your interview with Special Agent Pellegrino?

20 Is that what you're saying?

21 A. Like I had previously said, sir, I can not

22 correctly recall when the interview took place, but I can

23 say that, yes, we were interviewed by Special Agent Frank

24 Pellegrino, FBI Agent, at the US Embassy. He invited --

25 Q. I'm sorry.

1400 1 A. We were invited to the US Embassy, sir.

2 Q. Of course you were invited.

3 Did you go to Gen. Ebdane to seek his okay before

4 you accepted the invitation?

5 A. The person who advised us that we had been

6 invited and that we were going to the embassy of the United

7 States was Lt. Mike Cruz.

8 Q. And he told you that higher-ups said that it was

9 okay to go --


11 Q. -- to the embassy?


13 A. As our, since he was our chief he informed us

14 that we were going to the US Embassy.

15 Q. Sir, in the US Embassy when you first met Special

16 Agent Pellegrino did you tell him that you found the attache

17 case which allegedly contained the pipe bomb in front of the

18 door to apartment 603?

19 A. It seems to me that the question is rather

20 confusing.

21 THE COURT: Break it down.

22 Q. Sir, you were interviewed by Pellegrino in the

23 embassy, correct -- Special Agent, I'm sorry.


25 Q. He asked you questions with respect to what

1401 1 occurred on January 7, 1995, correct?


3 Q. He asked you some questions which related to the

4 discovery of what you say was a pipe bomb; is that correct?


6 Q. Did he ask you questions as to where you found

7 that pipe bomb?

8 A. Then I stuck to what, to the report that I was

9 told to make.

10 Q. And did you tell him that you received --

11 withdrawn.

12 Did you tell him that Senior Inspector Fariscal

13 gave you the attache case at police station number 9?

14 A. Yes, that's right. I stuck to what was written

15 in the report.

16 Q. Isn't it a fact that you told him that you found

17 the attache case outside the apartment?

18 A. That's what I said, sir, that I stuck to what was

19 written in the report.

20 Q. In the report it's an entirely different story,



23 THE COURT: Yes.

24 Q. Your report says you turned over the attache case

25 at police station number 9?

1402 1 A. Yes, sir, that's why I stuck to the report.

2 Q. But yet you told Special Agent Pellegrino you

3 found the attache case outside the apartment?

4 A. Yes, sir, that's why I stuck to the report.

5 Q. But your answers are different both times, aren't

6 they?


8 Q. Do you mention Special Agent -- withdrawn.

9 You tell Special Agent Pellegrino that you turned

10 over the -- withdrawn.

11 Do you tell Special Agent Pellegrino that Senior

12 Inspector Fariscal turned over the attache case to you?

13 A. That's why I stuck to the report, sir.

14 Q. Do you tell Special Agent Pellegrino that once

15 you opened up the attache case outside the apartment you

16 proceeded to a safe area and disabled the pipe bomb.


18 THE COURT: No, he can ask.

19 A. That's why I stuck to the report, sir.

20 Q. So you told Special Agent Pellegrino you found

21 the alleged bomb in the suitcase, in the attache case

22 outside the apartment, and I went to a safe area to disable

23 the bomb.

24 Those are the first two things you did; is that

25 correct?

1403 1 A. That's why I stuck to the report, sir.

2 Q. Do you agree that what I just said is what you

3 told Special Agent Pellegrino?

4 A. That's why, sir, I'm saying to you that I stuck

5 with what was written on the report.

6 Q. What was written in the report -- withdrawn.

7 What was written in your report, sir, with

8 respect to the discovery of this alleged pipe bomb?

9 A. That's what I'm saying that Lt. Mike Cruz wrote,

10 ordered me to write certain items in my report.

11 Q. What did he tell you to write as to the discovery

12 of the pipe bomb?

13 A. That's why, sir, I followed what I was told to

14 write in the report.

15 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, I would respectfully

16 ask the court to direct the witness to answer the question.

17 THE COURT: Yes. He didn't ask you how you got

18 there. He wants to know what did you write in the report.

19 THE WITNESS: What I wrote in my report is what

20 he told me to write in my report regarding the incident.

21 THE COURT: Do you remember it?

22 THE WITNESS: It's written in the report, sir.

23 THE COURT: I know that. Now, what did he tell

24 you to write in connection with finding the bomb?

25 THE WITNESS: You mean, sir, what Lt. Mike Cruz

1404 1 said?

2 THE COURT: Yes.

3 THE WITNESS: He asked me to write that the

4 attache case that contains the alleged pipe bomb was turned

5 over to me by Capt. Fariscal.

6 THE COURT: When you got to talk to Special Agent

7 Pellegrino did you tell him that Capt. Fariscal turned over

8 the pipe bomb to you?


10 THE COURT: Did you tell him that, or did you

11 tell him that you saw the attache case outside of the

12 apartment? You saw the attache case.

13 THE WITNESS: No, sir. I said that the attache

14 case was handed over to me.


16 Q. If Special Agent Pellegrino says that you said

17 something differently, would he be incorrect?


19 Q. Sir, who was your captain on January 7, 1995?

20 A. What do you mean, sir, by captain?

21 Q. Mike Cruz was your lieutenant.

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. There are no captains in the Philippine National

24 Police, are there?

25 A. When, sir?

1405 1 Q. In January 7, 1995.

2 A. What, what persons are you pertaining to, sir?

3 Q. I don't know. I don't live there.

4 A. And likewise, sir, I don't know whom you're

5 asking about.

6 Q. I'll be specific. You want me -- Mike Cruz is an

7 inspector who was your immediate superior, correct?


9 Q. On January 7, 1995, who was Mike Cruz's immediate

10 superior?

11 A. It was Major Angeles at that time.

12 Q. Was there any captain who was your superior in

13 the Philippine National Police on January 7, 1995?

14 A. You keep pertaining to the national police. The

15 national police covers the entire Philippines.

16 Q. All I want to cover is Manilla.

17 A. If you're pertaining just to the city of Manilla

18 that's the western police district command, sir.

19 Q. And I am pertaining to January 7, 1995, correct,

20 and pertaining to an incident that occurred allegedly at 711

21 Quirino Avenue, okay?

22 A. Okay, sir.

23 Q. I'm pertaining to your assignment in the bomb

24 disposal squad on January 7, 1995, okay?


1406 1 THE COURT: No. Go ahead.

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. I'm pertaining to your superior officers in that

4 command on January 7, 1995, okay?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. On January 7, 1995, was there a captain in your

7 command who was present in room 603?

8 A. Are you asking about our unit, sir?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. There is no captain in our unit. Lt. Mike Cruz

11 is our chief.

12 Q. Did you tell Special Agent Pellegrino in the

13 United States Embassy the first time you met him in 1995

14 that when you went to the apartment number 603 you were

15 instructed by your captain to inspect the room?

16 A. Maybe it's Capt. Fariscal, but she is not with my

17 unit, with the EOD unit.

18 Q. So you did not tell Special Agent Pellegrino that

19 your captain instructed you to conduct an inspection of the

20 room?

21 A. So I say again, sir, that I stuck to what I was

22 told to write in the report.

23 Q. Sir, you saw the videotape yesterday or the day

24 before yesterday. Do you recall that?

25 A. Yes, sir.

1407 1 Q. Was there a photographer present in room 603 when

2 the videotape was made?

3 A. I don't really know, sir, because I was really

4 paying attention to the job I was assigned.

5 Q. Did you see in the videotape the other day a man,

6 who you said you didn't know his identity, with a camera

7 hanging from his neck?

8 A. There were many units that came that night and I

9 don't know all the people in the units.

10 Q. Did you see on the videotape that was played in

11 this courtroom somebody with a camera hanging around his

12 neck?

13 A. I would like to say that I really didn't notice

14 it because I just saw this videotape in the United States.

15 Q. Sir, you got to the United States on June 5,

16 1996, correct?


18 Q. And when did you have your first meeting with the

19 United States Attorneys and the FBI in this case in the

20 United States?

21 A. A few days after we got here we were called.

22 Q. Were you interviewed alone or were you

23 interviewed with Lt. Mike Cruz at the same time?

24 A. There were instances where we were interviewed by

25 ourselves, and there were instances when the whole group was

1408 1 there together.

2 Q. Now, the first time that you were interviewed was

3 that by yourself or was that in the whole group?

4 A. The entire group, sir.

5 Q. Who was involved -- withdrawn.

6 Who was in this group that was interviewed en

7 masse?

8 A. Are you pertaining -- whom are you pertaining to,

9 sir, the lawyers, the FBI?

10 Q. Let's do the Philippine National Police Force.

11 A. We were five in the group.

12 Q. And who are they?

13 A. There were five of us. Lt. Mike Cruz, myself,

14 Sgt. Voltaire Gomez, Sgt. Edilberto Capacete and PO3 Ariel

15 Fernandez.

16 Q. And how long did this first meeting take?

17 A. It wasn't a long meeting.

18 Q. Well, then how long did the short meeting take?

19 A. Maybe one hour. I don't know.

20 Q. And during this one-hour period did you all go

21 over what your recollections were as to January 6th and


23 (Record read)

24 A. When they talked to us they told us that we

25 should tell the truth when we are in this process.

1409 1 Q. And that took the entire hour?

2 A. We were conversing like normal people converse

3 first.

4 Q. Were you conversing about the case?

5 A. They told us that if we were going to be asked in

6 court we should tell the truth.

7 Q. And this took an hour?

8 A. Like I said, sir, we spent some of the time

9 talking about how we were all, like the normal conversation.

10 Q. Well, I appreciate that, but what I'm interested

11 in, what did you talk about with respect to what occurred on

12 January 7, 1995?


14 Q. Something happened on January 7, 1995, correct?


16 Q. And correct me if I'm wrong, you came from the

17 Philippines to the United States to discuss what happened on

18 January 7, 1995 in the Philippines? Withdrawn.

19 You came to the United States from the

20 Philippines with respect to what occurred on January 7,

21 1995, am I correct?


23 Q. My question is, so as not to confuse you, did you

24 talk about what happened on January 7, 1995, at that meeting

25 you had with the United States Attorney's Office?

1410 1 A. Yes, sir, we did talk about it.

2 Q. And that was during this one-hour meeting that

3 you initially had?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. And on January -- withdrawn. Whatever date this

6 was, June 5th, 6th, 7th, whatever date it was, did you tell

7 the United States Attorney's Office that you received an

8 attache case from Senior Inspector Fariscal at the 9th

9 police station?

10 A. Yes, sir. Like I said before I stuck to the

11 report that I was told to make.

12 Q. Then did you come back the next day and tell them

13 the same story all over again?

14 A. The next few, the next, subsequently they showed

15 us evidence that was collected from the Josefa.

16 Q. Did they show you FBI report that says the

17 evidence was allegedly found at the Dona Josefa?

18 A. They showed us evidence.

19 Q. Did anyone suggest to you that you should have an

20 attack of conscience and change your testimony?

21 A. No, sir.

22 Q. Did anyone suggest to you that your testimony

23 directly conflicted with what other members of the

24 Philippine National Police may have told the FBI?

25 A. What do you mean, sir, by your question?

1411 1 Q. Did anyone suggest to you that your testimony --

2 withdrawn.

3 Did anyone suggest to you that the story you told

4 in your January 7, 1995 report directly conflicts with the

5 stories told by other members of the Philippine National

6 Police Department?

7 A. To your question I say, no, sir. That's why

8 there came a time when we called these lawyers and we wanted

9 to tell them the exact truth.

10 Q. That happened, or did you receive an order from a

11 higher-up under a special instruction to have an attack of

12 conscience?

13 A. No, sir.

14 MR. GREENFIELD: No further questions, your

15 Honor.

16 THE COURT: Okay. Any redirect?

17 MR. SNELL: Nothing further, your Honor.

18 THE COURT: Step down.

19 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, based on the fact

20 that the report has been introduced in evidence may I ask a

21 few questions pertaining to the report?

22 THE COURT: Sure.



25 Q. Sir, you testified that you were instructed by

1412 1 Lt. Mike Cruz to include specific things in your report, am

2 I correct, sir?


4 Q. Now, how did this happen, sir? Did the

5 lieutenant give you a report and ask you to copy down or did

6 he give you a piece of paper with --

7 A. He handed me a list and he said, copy this. This

8 is the way it should be.

9 Q. Did he give you a complete report and ask you to

10 copy it down?

11 A. No, sir. He didn't give me anything like that.

12 Q. Now, sir, when did this happen?


14 THE COURT: When did what happen? When was the

15 report written, is that the question?

16 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: When he was given the piece of

17 paper by Lt. Mike Cruz?

18 MR. SNELL: I object to that.

19 THE COURT: This is the long way away from it,

20 but go ahead, answer it.

21 A. I think that while I was in the process of

22 writing the report he came into the room, he gave me a piece

23 of paper, and he said: Here it is, put this in your report,

24 too.

25 Q. And that was on January 7, 1995?

1413 1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Now, sir, did you prepare any other report other

3 than the one which is in front of you?


5 that again, please.

6 Q. Did you prepare any other report concerning the

7 incidents which allegedly took place on January 7, 1995?

8 A. Are you pertaining to myself, sir?

9 Q. Yes, sir.

10 A. This is the only report I made, sir.


12 your Honor.

13 THE COURT: Okay, thank you.

14 (Witness excused)

15 THE COURT: Who is next?

16 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, the government calls

17 Edilberto Capacete.

18 EDILBERTO CAPACETE JR.,


20 having been duly sworn, through the interpreter,

21 testified as follows:


23 BY MR. GARCIA:

24 Q. Mr. Capacete, where do you work?

25 A. I am working as a member of the Philippine

1414 1 National Police and currently I'm assigned to the explosive

2 ordnance disposal unit, office of the assistant director for

3 intelligence, western police district command, as a bomb

4 technician.

5 Q. How long have you been a bomb technician?

6 A. Seven years, sir.

7 Q. Approximately how long have you been a police

8 officer?

9 A. About 14 years, sir.

10 Q. Could you tell us what training you have had as a

11 bomb technician?

12 A. For my foreign training I took a post-blast

13 investigation course at the Louisiana State Police Academy

14 in 1991. In the year of 1992, in the same academy I took an

15 explosive ordnance disposal course.

16 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter needs to

17 request a repetition of his local schooling.

18 A. (Continued) And locally in the Philippines I took

19 a special PCINP explosive ordnance disposal course, class

20 89-A.

21 Q. Now, Officer, were you scheduled to work on

22 January 7, 1995?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. What was your assigned shift on that day?

25 A. We are usually assigned to 24 hour shifts, and

1415 1 that day on the 7th of January, myself and Sgt. Voltaire

2 Gomez were assigned to work for 24 hours.

3 Q. Approximately what time did you report to work on

4 the 7th?

5 A. (English) before 9 o'clock in the morning.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Before 9 o'clock in the

7 morning, sir.

8 Q. You mentioned Voltaire Gomez. How long have you

9 worked with that individual?

10 A. In the bomb disposal unit I had been working with

11 Voltaire Gomez from 1993.

12 Q. Did there come a time during your shift on

13 January 7th that you reported to the Josefa apartment

14 building?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Approximately what time was that?

17 A. About 5:30 in the afternoon.

18 Q. Who was with you from the bomb disposal unit when

19 you went to the Josefa?

20 A. The members of the bomb disposal unit with us

21 were, with myself were my partner, Sgt. Voltaire Gomez, our

22 former chief, Lt. Mike Cruz, our present chief, Orlando

23 Ramilo, and SPO4 Armisticio Mandigma.

24 Q. What was your assignment at the Josefa building?

25 A. I was assigned the task of taking video footage

1416 1 during that search on that day.

2 Q. And what did you do when you arrived at the

3 Josefa?

4 A. That, for that time I took video footage from the

5 outside of the apartment, and I covered the members of the

6 bomb disposal unit entering the premises along with members

7 of the other police officers from other agencies, and then I

8 proceeded to take video footage inside the apartment.

9 Q. Approximately for how long a period did you take

10 video footage inside the apartment?

11 A. The video of which I talk that I took lasted for

12 about 25 minutes.

13 Q. Do you recall approximately how long a period of

14 time you were actually running the camera for?

15 A. The actual act of taking the footage could have

16 lasted -- the actual time that I took in taking the video

17 footage could have lasted a longer time because I took

18 footage in intervals, and there were times when my battery

19 would run out. So I would say that the time in between the

20 time I was actually using the video camera and stopping,

21 maybe that time wasted could have been an hour and a half,

22 two hours.

23 Q. So we're clear, when you say you videotaped

24 inside the apartment, was that apartment 603?

25 A. Yes, sir.

1417 1 Q. What instruction, if any, did you give the other

2 members of the team while you were videotaping?

3 A. I told the members of the bomb disposal team and

4 the other police officers present that they should not move

5 anything in the apartment.

6 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, at this time if I might

7 show the witness Government Exhibit 350 already in evidence

8 as well as Government Exhibit 350A through O marked for

9 identification at this time.

10 First, Officer, will you pick up Government

11 Exhibit 350, which is the videotape in evidence. If you'll

12 just take the video cartridge out of the envelope. Is that

13 a copy of the videotape you shot inside apartment 603?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Did you view that videotape prior to coming to

16 court?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. Are your initials on that videotape?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Now, turning next to Government Exhibits 350A

21 through 0 which are in the envelope you have in front of

22 you, generally, sir, do you recognize those exhibits?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. In general terms what are they?

25 A. These are still photos that were taken from the

1418 1 original tape that I took.

2 Q. Did you have the opportunity prior to coming to

3 court to compare the still photos to the videotape?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, we have no

6 objection to 350A through O, except what we stated

7 previously.

8 MR. GARCIA: The government would offer 350A

9 through O.

10 MR. GREENFIELD: No problem.

11 THE COURT: Tell me what 350K is? What is

12 represented in that picture, please?

13 THE WITNESS: This is, this picture is what was

14 on top of the dressing table in the bedroom in room 603, and

15 on the left-hand side is a watch, that this picture I took,

16 and it's a watch without a bracelet.

17 THE COURT: Mark them all.

18 (Government Exhibits 350A through O received in

19 evidence)


21 Q. Now, Officer, during time that you were shooting

22 the video did you observe what Officer Voltaire Gomez was

23 doing?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. Could you describe that for us?

1419 1 A. I observed Sgt. Voltaire Gomez working with

2 important evidence that was found in apartment 603. He

3 would tape some of the evidence and write apartment 603 on

4 the tape, or sometimes he would put his signature on

5 evidence that was found, perhaps outside boxes or cartons,

6 outside the bottles, and other, outside plastic bags.

7 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, if the witness might be

8 shown Government Exhibits 330A, B, C and D.

9 Q. Officer Capacete, do you recognize those items of

10 the exhibits 330A, B, C and D for identification that have

11 been placed in front of you?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Where was the first time you saw those items?

14 A. These are items, these are some of the items that

15 I took a videotape of and they were found in apartment 603.

16 Q. And do you recognize any markings on those boxes?

17 A. Yes, these writings, for example, I recognize.

18 This is the handwriting of my colleague, Sgt. Voltaire

19 Gomez.

20 Q. Did he make those markings on January 7, 1995?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. And do those boxes appear to be in the same

23 condition they were in when you saw them inside apartment

24 603?

25 A. It's similar, sir.

1420 1 Q. Do you recall what was inside those boxes when

2 they were in apartment 603?

3 A. What I know is that it contains electric stoves.

4 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, the government would

5 offer exhibits 330A, B, C and D.

6 (Government Exhibit 330A, B, C and D received in

7 evidence)

8 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take our

9 morning break at this point.


11 present)

12 THE COURT: These things have in them what it

13 says on the outside, one heating element in each one?

14 MR. GARCIA: Yes, your Honor. I thought I would

15 have the witness just hold them up for the jury.

16 THE COURT: Fine.

17 (Recess)


19 THE COURT: Throughout we've referred to the

20 exhibit as 3522B. Do you want to make it into something

21 else, I don't care. Just so long as it's not going to

22 confuse some reviewing court.

23 MR. GREENFIELD: If you say it that way, it's

24 fine.

25

1421 1 DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued)

2 BY MR. GARCIA:

3 Q. Officer Capacete, I believe right before the

4 break you mentioned that there were stoves inside Government

5 Exhibits 330A through D; is that right?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Did you see those stoves that are inside the

8 boxes while you were in apartment 603 during the search?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Turning to Government Exhibit 330A, which is on

11 the stand in front of you, could you open that box for us.

12 If you would just remove the item inside and display it for

13 the jury.

14 THE COURT: Was this this way when you found it?

15 THE WITNESS: When I saw this box I opened the

16 box and I just looked inside. I didn't remove the item from

17 the box.

18 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, if I might show the

19 witness at this time Government Exhibit 332 and 332D for

20 identification.

21 Q. First, directing your attention, Officer, to the

22 exhibit that has been marked 332, which is right in front of

23 you. Do you recognize that item?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. How is it that you recognize it?

1422 1 A. I recognize this item as a piece of evidence

2 because of the numbers 603 written on the box that was

3 written by my partner, Sgt. Voltaire Gomez, and by the

4 sticker on the side of the box.

5 Q. When you say you recognize it as evidence, did

6 you see that item in the apartment 603 during the search?

7 A. I did not only see this box. I took a videotape

8 footage of it.

9 Q. If you would open up Government Exhibit 332 and

10 take a look inside there for us.


12 THE COURT: To have him look at it? No, go ahead

13 and look at it.

14 Q. And just look at the Government Exhibit marked

15 inside, Government Exhibit 332D for identification, without

16 taking it out. Do you recognize that item?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where was the first time you saw that item?

19 A. In apartment 603.


21 government would offer Government Exhibits 332 and 332D.

22 MR. KULCSAR: May we look at it, your Honor?

23 THE COURT: Sure, bring it down.

24 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, if I might ask a

25 question while he is doing that?

1423 1 Q. Officer Capacete, Government Exhibit 332D, is

2 that in the same condition you saw it in apartment 603?

3 A. No, sir.

4 Q. What is different about it now?

5 A. The item that I saw at the apartment which was

6 2,000 ML was complete. This is broken.

7 Q. And when you say 2,000 ML do you mean 2,000

8 milliliters?

9 A. Yes, sir.


11 government would renew its offer.

12 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: May I have a short voir dire?

13 THE COURT: Sure.



16 Q. Sir, could you just point out which handwriting

17 is Mr. Gomez's handwriting?

18 A. That which says room 603, the letters EODU.

19 Q. Is that written in red ink, sir?


21 again, please?

22 THE COURT: Was that written in red ink, sir?

23 THE WITNESS: The actual color he was using on

24 that day I can't remember, but I recognize the handwriting

25 as that of Sgt. Voltaire Gomez.

1424 1 Q. The handwriting you just recognized now, is that

2 the only one written in red ink, sir?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Sir, do you know when the writing was placed on

5 the box?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Could you tell us, sir, when?

8 A. When we were conducting the search at room 603 at

9 the Josefa Apartments.

10 Q. Sir, the contents of the box which you saw just

11 now, is that the same contents of the box when you saw it in

12 room number 603?

13 A. Aside from what's inside now there were other

14 graduated cylinders.

15 Q. Sir, what was inside the box when you first saw

16 it in room 603? Is it inside the box now?

17 A. When I was taking a videotape of this item I took

18 a videotape of this item that's inside this box now. There

19 were other items like graduated cylinders of different

20 sizes, thermometers, and other equipment used in chemistry.


22 your Honor.


24 (Government Exhibits 332 and 332D received in

25 evidence)

1425 1 BY MR. GARCIA:

2 Q. Now, sir, you just mentioned that when you

3 originally saw this box or videotaped this box you observed

4 thermometers and other graduated cylinders inside; is that

5 right?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, if I might show the

8 witness Government Exhibits 331, 332A, 332B, 332C, 332E,

9 332F1, and 332F2 marked for identification at this time.

10 Officer Capacete, directing your attention to the

11 items that have been placed before you, do you recognize

12 those items?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Where did you first see those items?

15 A. These were items that I videotaped in apartment

16 603 that Sgt. Voltaire Gomez had put in the box.

17 Q. Directing your attention to Government Exhibit

18 350N which is already in evidence, the still photo on top of

19 that pile, I believe.

20 THE COURT: Here you go.

21 Does Government Exhibit 350N show any of these

22 items before you?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Is that the box that was packed by Voltaire Gomez

25 that you just described for us?

1426 1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. If you could just hold that photo up to the jury

3 so that they can see as well.

4 (Witness holds photo up)

5 Q. Thank you.

6 At this time the government would offer

7 Government Exhibits 331, 332A, 332B, 332C, 332E, 332F1 and

8 F2.

9 MR. KULCSAR: May we look at the photograph, your

10 Honor?

11 THE COURT: Sure.

12 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, may I have a short

13 voir dire?

14 THE COURT: Sure.



17 Q. Sir, with respect to Government Exhibits in front

18 of you when prior to today was the last time you saw each of

19 them?

20 A. (In English) Just the other day.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Just the other day.

22 Q. What do you mean by the other day, sir?

23 A. Just when I went the other day to the office of

24 attorney, US Attorney Michael Garcia.

25 Q. And when was that, if you recall?

1427 1 A. I don't really remember, but I know I was there

2 three times in his office.

3 THE COURT: Was it last week or this week?

4 THE WITNESS: I know we arrived here on the 5th

5 of June and we met with them after a few days and we went

6 there once. Then after a few days we went there again.

7 Maybe two weeks had passed, or a week. I'm not sure.

8 Q. And did you see them during the three times in

9 which you were in his office?

10 A. Not all those three days that I went to his

11 office. I think it was only once.

12 Q. Prior to that, prior to June 5th of 1996, when

13 did you see each of these items?

14 A. I can't really remember the day or the time but I

15 saw these items once when I got here.

16 Q. Before being in the United States, prior to that

17 when did you see these items?

18 A. That day at the Josefa.

19 Q. How many times did you see them while you were in

20 the Philippines?

21 A. Only once, but the rest of the time I saw it in

22 my videotape and that one time was at the Josefa Apartments.

23 Q. Now, sir, is there any writing or mark that was

24 placed by you on Government Exhibits which are placed before

25 you that allows you to identify them now?

1428 1 A. No, sir. What I did was I saw these items at the

2 apartment, I took a videotape of this apartment and I

3 reviewed my videotape.

4 Q. Sir, are these items the same items which you saw

5 in room number 603 in January of 1995 or they are similar to

6 them?

7 A. This item, for example, they're thermometers in

8 these cases. The only difference is the containers are now

9 discolored.

10 Q. Sir, when you saw these items in room number 603

11 the first time were they, did they appear to you now in the

12 same condition in which you saw them in room 603 in January

13 of 1995?

14 A. These items (indicating) seem to be in the same

15 condition, but the thermometer is different. The

16 thermometer, the case, the encasing around it is different

17 because of the discoloration, and the item contained in the

18 box it's broken.


20 your Honor.

21 THE COURT: Okay.

22 MR. KULCSAR: One moment.

23 Q. Sir, isn't it a fact that a videotape shows that

24 these items were wrapped in a plastic or clear paper and

25 inside boxes?

1429 1 A. Could you please repeat the question, sir?

2 Q. Isn't it a fact that they were taken out of boxes

3 before they were videotaped?

4 A. That hour when I was taking the video these items

5 were removed from the box, and I would videotape each item

6 which was taken out of the box and Sgt. Voltaire Gomez

7 subsequently returns it to the box.

8 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: No further questions, your

9 Honor.

10 (Government Exhibits 331, 332A, B, C, E, F-1 and

11 F-2 received in evidence)

12 BY MR. GARCIA:

13 Q. Officer, if you could just direct your attention

14 now to Government Exhibit 331, the thermometers. If you

15 could just open one of those thermometers and take one out

16 for us, if you would.

17 Just hold it up so the jury might see it.

18 Thank you.

19 Your Honor, at this time if the witness might be

20 shown Government Exhibits 325, 327, 328-A, B and C and 329.

21 First, if I can direct your attention, Officer,

22 to the item on your far left, the small box, Government

23 Exhibit 325 for identification.

24 Do you recognize that item?

25 A. Yes, sir.

1430 1 Q. How is it that you recognize that?

2 A. This is similar to one of the items that I

3 videotaped at the apartment 603. I actually see a marking

4 of, made by Sgt. Voltaire Gomez of the room number.

5 Q. Was that marking made on January 7, 1995?

6 A. Yes, sir.


8 350-O which will be the top photo on that pile, do you see

9 that item in that still photo?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Could you just show it up so that everyone can

12 see it?

13 (Witness holds photo up)

14 Q. Thank you.

15 Directing your attention next to Government

16 Exhibit 327.

17 THE COURT: Why don't you stop there? You want

18 to offer this one?

19 MR. GARCIA: Yes, your Honor, the government

20 would offer Exhibit 325.

21 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: No objection.



24 THE COURT: What's next?

25 MR. GARCIA: Government Exhibit 327. I thought

1431 1 you asked me to stop.

2 THE COURT: Which one is that?

3 MR. GARCIA: On the witness's far right.

4 Q. Do you recognize that item, Officer?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Looking inside the bag there do you recognize any

7 marking?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. What do you recognize?

10 A. I recognize the signature of Sgt. Voltaire Gomez

11 and his tape.

12 Q. Was that signature and tape placed on the item on

13 January 7, 1995 in room 603?

14 A. Yes, when we did the search at room 603.


16 350-A, the next still photo. Do you see that item in

17 Government Exhibit 327 in that still photograph?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, the government would

20 offer Government Exhibit 327.

21 MR. KULCSAR: Can the witness just hold it up,

22 your Honor?

23 THE COURT: Sure.

24 (Pause)

25 MR. KULCSAR: Thank you very much.

1432 1 THE COURT: Mark it in.


3 THE COURT: Now you can sit.

4 Ladies and gentlemen, it's lunchtime. Today is

5 that magic day, perhaps you know. I hope you've made your

6 selection. Let's hope we'll do it within a reasonable time

7 today, so go enjoy.


9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25



3 THE COURT: My comment is I think to you, Mr.

4 Yousef, counsel who may not know under the Federal Rules now

5 there is no "chain of custody requirement" like there is in

6 New York State. That's an entirely different thing.

7 Federal Rules are relatively clear about that, but even

8 before we had Federal Rules there was no chain of custody

9 requirement at all.

10 MR. KULCSAR: We're not going to test of the

11 chain of custody at all, your Honor.

12 THE COURT: Yes, Roy.

13 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, because I have the

14 opportunity to stand before you I have discussed with

15 Mr. Garcia to ask whether or not the government would intend

16 to call Officer Gomez, and at this point they're not sure.

17 I would just ask that the government have him available. We

18 may be able to resolve it by a stipulation anyway.

19 THE COURT: Sure.

20 MR. KULCSAR: Also, the same is true apparently

21 with Lieutenant or whatever his designation is Cruz, so that

22 if the government does not intend to call him, we'd like to

23 have him available to be called.

24 THE COURT: Yes. Now, a question. I don't know

25 whether the folks who speak Taglog pronounce a W as a V. Is

1434 1 Gomez's name Voltaire or is Walter?

2 MR. GARCIA: It's Voltaire.

3 THE COURT: It's Voltaire just like the French

4 philosopher, okay.

5 (Luncheon recess)


7 2:15 p.m.


9 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, if I might raise an

10 issue?

11 THE COURT: Sure.

12 MR. GARCIA: The government at this time intends

13 during this witness's testimony to show the witness

14 Government Exhibit 307 which is the Hawley's Condensed

15 Chemical Dictionary. The government does not intend to

16 offer the exhibit at this time because of the dispute over

17 certain pages in the book. It plans to introduce at a later

18 time the chain of custody witness.

19 THE COURT: Just identify?

20 MR. GARCIA: Yes, your Honor.

21 THE COURT: The other books, too?

22 MR. GARCIA: No, your Honor, the other books we

23 intend to offer.

24 THE COURT: They are around?

25 MR. GARCIA: They are all here. How many more

1435 1 Tagalog witnesses do you have?

2 MR. GARCIA: Eight or nine, your Honor.

3 (Pause)

4 THE COURT: Look, I know you're all terribly

5 anxious to continue, but we have a problem with one of the

6 jurors who is ill. Number 341, back row, I think third or

7 fourth seat. You remember her? She has had headaches she

8 claims for the last week, and she says she feels nauseous,

9 so on and so forth, and would like to have some place lie

10 down. Now, you guys, my own reaction is there is no sense

11 to chase this juror. She seems like a heck of a nice

12 person.

13 MR. GREENFIELD: I agree.

14 MR. KULCSAR: I agree.

15 THE COURT: That's what we'll do. We'll let the

16 woman go. Is there any other thing that we can take care

17 of? Is there anything else can take care of while we're all

18 here?

19 MR. GREENFIELD: May we take five minutes to

20 discuss it?

21 THE COURT: Sure, go ahead.

22 (Recess)


24 THE COURT: Okay. I understand you guys have

25 something that you want to take up. Let's take it up and

1436 1 get it over and done with. You want to do it out here?

2 MR. SNELL: Sure. Your Honor, one of the next

3 witnesses, if not the very next witness, is going to be a

4 member of the Philippine Presidential Security Group which

5 is as I understand it roughly the same as our Secret

6 Service, and they are responsible for protecting the heads

7 of state.

8 THE COURT: Foreign dignitaries and so on and so

9 forth.

10 MR. SNELL: Actually, your Honor, I think it's

11 just heads of state, if I understand it correctly. He was

12 involved in the security arrangements for the Pope's visit

13 in January, 1995, in Manilla, and he was summoned to the

14 Josefa Apartments on the night of January 6th and 7th

15 because of what was discovered there.

16 THE COURT: Yes. Now, why are you putting him on

17 the stand? There is no charge here that these people

18 conspired to blow up the Pope.

19 MR. SNELL: That's absolutely true, your Honor.

20 He's going to be testifying because he is the person who

21 took the computer from room 603.

22 THE COURT: He is the so-called aide?

23 MR. SNELL: As has been referred to so far I

24 guess that's right.

25 THE COURT: I don't know. Do you guys want to

1437 1 put this guy on the stand at all? I'm talking about the

2 defense. Think about it, for God's sake.

3 MR. GREENFIELD: Is there any 3500 for this

4 witness so we can evaluate that instead of making a decision

5 in the blind?


7 MR. SNELL: There is one very short 302, your

8 Honor.

9 THE COURT: It says basically --

10 MR. SNELL: That's right, your Honor.

11 THE COURT: I would recommend to you, and that's

12 all I can do recommend, that you give him the 302, and I

13 would recommend to the defense counsel that you consider

14 whether it's not just as easy to let this guy go past and

15 say that so and so was there; either that, or restrict your

16 cross-examination, and this particularly I'm directing to

17 you, Mr. Yousef. Please restrict your cross-examination.

18 This is not a matter of bouncing around with the jury.

19 MR. UDELL: Might it be a suggestion that if he's

20 told on direct that he not state his title or his purpose,

21 just represent that?

22 THE COURT: I don't care. I don't know.

23 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor.

24 MR. UDELL: If he states that --

25 MR. GREENFIELD: May I make another suggestion

1438 1 that may help us make our decision other than 302. Can the

2 government tell us what his direct testimony would be

3 without obviously -- your Honor, in this sense. "I arrived

4 at the apartment at a certain time. I received the

5 computer, and I brought it to point B and I left it there."

6 THE COURT: I don't know if he has anything else

7 to say. I can't force the government to disclose what they

8 expect his direct testimony to be, and I won't do it. We

9 have been dancing around this thing for a long time now.

10 It's just not worth bringing out possible alleged crimes

11 when we don't need them. There is enough crime here.

12 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, I think we all agree

13 about it. I think what we're asking if Mr. Snell or Garcia

14 can draft some form of stipulation we can sign off on.

15 THE COURT: I don't know. Maybe they won't

16 stipulate.

17 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, I'm afraid the situation

18 is even more complicated because there is at least one other

19 witness who is a member of the same group who is also in the

20 chain of custody, not just for the computer, but for other

21 items of evidence as well that were taken from 603.

22 THE COURT: I thought I made it clear. You

23 weren't listening when I was discussing matters with Mr.

24 Yousef and with everybody else. There is no such thing as

25 chain of custody under the federal law. Now, if you want to

1439 1 make one, nice, but if you take a look at the circuit cases

2 they have absolutely rejected, at least that's what used to

3 be. God knows they might have changed their mind, but not

4 to my knowledge.

5 MR. SNELL: The problem, your Honor, is that for

6 the contents of the computer I'm sure those will be a

7 contested issue, and in addition to retrieving the computer

8 from the apartment, the next witness accessed the computer

9 and browsed files.

10 THE COURT: But did he put anything into it?

11 MR. SNELL: Not according to what we expect his

12 testimony to be.

13 THE COURT: Did the next guy put anything into

14 it?

15 MR. SNELL: No, your Honor.

16 THE COURT: Okay. So what the blazes are they

17 here for? Some of the stuff, you know, you've given me a

18 hard drive and I've accessed it myself. I don't know where

19 the blazes it came from, but you think that an issue might

20 be that this was put in by Philippine National Police, et

21 cetera, et cetera? Okay, I can understand the position.

22 All right. It's something you guys are going to

23 have to work on. I don't have authority to force anybody to

24 do a darn thing and I wouldn't do it anyway. But everybody

25 should be aware that's the kind of thing that really makes

1440 1 sense.

2 All right. I want everyone back here at 9:30 on

3 Monday, not 10 o'clock, and the reason for the 9:30 is so

4 that we can work this thing out. Yes, Clover.

5 MS. BARRETT: Judge, during the suppression

6 hearing some draft transcripts were turned over to your

7 Honor for consideration as to whether or not they should be

8 turned over to defense. These were transcripts that were

9 given to Agent Pellegrino while he was in the Philippines.

10 I don't believe your Honor made a decision with respect to

11 that, and I'm asking that those transcripts be turned over

12 so we can say that the tapes are authentic. It may also be

13 Brady material.

14 THE COURT: The transcript? No, the transcript

15 would not be Brady material.

16 MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, those were the

17 transcripts that the government made available to the Court

18 since the transcripts were of five or six of the cassettes

19 that were turned over to Ms. Barrett in discovery.

20 THE COURT: You have the cassettes. I don't

21 know. Are you suggesting that the transcript is other than

22 what the cassette played?

23 MS. BARRETT: I didn't hear, your Honor.

24 THE COURT: What?

25 MS. BARRETT: I didn't hear.

1441 1 THE COURT: Are you suggesting that the

2 transcripts contain something other than what the cassette

3 has?

4 MS. BARRETT: Not necessarily, your Honor.

5 THE COURT: Then I don't see the reason to turn

6 them over.

7 Okay. 9:30 on Monday. See you.

8 (Adjourned to Monday, July 1, 1994, 9:30 a.m.)

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1880

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 ------------------------------x

3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

4 v. S12 93 Cr. 180 KTD

5 RAMZI AHMED YOUSEF, a/k/a "Azan Muhammad," 6 a/k/a "Khurram Khan," a/k/a "Rashed," 7 a/k/a "Kamal Ibraham," a/k/a "Abdul Basit," 8 a/k/a "Adam Ali Qasim," a/k/a "Naji Haddad," 9 a/k/a "Dr. Paul Vijay," a/k/a "Dr. Adel Sabah," 10 a/k/a "Amaldo Forlani," a/k/a "Muhammad Ali Baloch," 11 EYAD ISMOIL, a/k/a "Eyad Ismail," 12 a/k/a "Iyad Mahmoud Ismaeel Najim," ABDUL RAHMAN YASIN, 13 a/k/a "Aboud," ABDUL HAKIM MURAD, 14 a/k/a "Saeed Ahmed," and WALI KHAN AMIN SHAH, 15 a/k/a "Grabi Ibrahim Hahsen,"

16 Defendants.

17 ------------------------------x

18

19 July 10, 1996 10:00 a.m. 20

21 Before: 22 HON. KEVIN THOMAS DUFFY, 23 District Judge 24 and a jury

25

1881

1

2

3 APPEARANCES 4

5 MARY JO WHITE, United States Attorney for the 6 Southern District of New York DIETRICH SNELL, 7 MICHAEL GARCIA, Assistant United States Attorneys 8

9 ROY KULCSAR, Attorney for defendant Yousef 10

11 CLOVER BARRETT, BERNARD UDELL, 12 Attorneys for defendant Murad

13 DAVID GREENFIELD, 14 Attorney for defendant Shah

15 Also Present: Lillie Grant, Paralegal U.S. Attorney's Office 16

17 AZIZ ISMAIL, GALAL EL-NAHAL, 18 Arabic Interpreters

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1882

1 (Trial resumed)


3 MR. SNELL: Judge, while we are waiting for the

4 witness, could I put an exhibit on the stand that I want to

5 start him off on?

6 THE COURT: Sure.

7 MR. SNELL: It is 301G.

8 REYNALDO CANLAS, resumed.

9 (Jury present)

10 THE COURT: Good morning, guys. I hope you did

11 something constructive yesterday afternoon. I did. I went

12 to the dentist. Anyway, I will not go through the boring

13 details of it, but I will tell you this much. He is one of

14 those fellows who does not believe in Novocain. "It doesn't

15 hurt." One of these days I am going to do it to him.

16 We are back today, you will recall we were

17 discussing computers when we last met. We will take the

18 testimony. I am sure that the prosecutors have some more to

19 talk about computers.

20


22

23

24

25

1883

1 DIRECT EXAMINATION continued

2 BY MR. SNELL:

3 Q Mr. Canlas, yesterday you were testifying about

4 work that you did on January 9, 1995, on the laptop

5 computer, is that right?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q I would like to start by directing your attention

8 to the exhibit that is in front of you, which I believe is

9 marked Government's Exhibit 301G in evidence. You remember

10 that?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Would you take a look at the end of the cord on

13 that exhibit, and hold it up for everybody so that they can

14 see what it looks like.

15 What is normally at the end of a wire piece of

16 equipment like that?

17 THE COURT: You need an expert to explain that?

18 A plug.

19 MR. SNELL: Thank you, your Honor.

20 Q Was the exhibit in that condition when you first

21 saw it on January 9, 1995, Mr. Canlas?

22 A Yes, sir, I remember it so.

23 Q Thank you. You can just put it aside.

24 THE COURT: How did you get the machine to work

25 if you couldn't plug it in? Battery?

1884

1 THE WITNESS: No, sir. It can still be

2 plugged -- improvise.

3 THE COURT: I see. You stick it in the wall and

4 hope to God you don't get electrocuted.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes.

6 Q About how long that night did you work on the

7 computer?

8 A Until about 3:00 a.m. in the morning, the

9 following morning, 3:00 a.m.

10 MR. KULCSAR: Can we just clarify the date, what

11 night we are talking about?

12 THE COURT: I guess this is January 9 into 10.

13 THE WITNESS: Until January 10, your Honor.

14 MR. GREENFIELD: May I suggest that the witness

15 lift the microphone up.

16 THE COURT: Yes. Make yourself comfortable

17 there.

18 Q At 3 a.m. did you decide to retire for the night?

19 A Yes, sir, and my plan then was to continue

20 working the following morning and do the printing at our

21 office at Camp Crame.

22 Q What happened the following morning?

23 A At about 8:00 in the morning, I got a call again

24 from Colonel Delfin, and he said he needed the computer

25 back, and he has to take it to the director, so he will be

1885

1 passing by again my residence to pick up the computer. I

2 told him there is more work that should be done.

3 Q I am sorry to cut you off, but without going into

4 what was said in the conversation, sir, could you tell us,

5 did you see Colonel Delfin after that phone conversation?

6 A Yes, sir, he did pass by and pick up the

7 computer.

8 Q Did you see the computer again at all after you

9 gave it back to Colonel Delfin?

10 A The next time I saw the computer was the

11 afternoon of the following day, which is Wednesday, the 11th

12 of January.

13 Q Where did you see the computer on the 11th of

14 January?

15 A In my office at Camp Crame, PNP Intelligence

16 Command.

17 Q At that time, did you receive any request as to

18 something that should be done with the computer?

19 A Just to print out all the data that we recovered

20 and the files that are important, and then we did recover

21 some files, and there were also active files --

22 MR. GREENFIELD: Objection, your Honor.

23 THE COURT: I am sorry, but I didn't hear it.

24 (Record read)


1886

1 Q Could you finish the answer that you were giving.

2 A I recovered in the evenings some files that were

3 coded, encrypted, and this is the work, additional work that

4 I said earlier that had to be done. The files looked

5 important, so we had to work on it to decode the encrypted

6 files.

7 Q At this time were you still working on the

8 original laptop computer?

9 A No, sir. When I got the computer in my office

10 that Wednesday afternoon, the first thing that we did was to

11 make a copy, a mirror copy of the contents of the computer,

12 and the copy we loaded into our own computer. This is so

13 that we don't work on the original, to preserve what is in

14 there, and we just work on the copies. This was after we

15 printed out everything. This work, as I said, is the

16 decoding work.

17 Q Could you, without going into a huge amount of

18 detail could you summarize for us what kind of work you did

19 on the files that you decided were coded?

20 A It is called crypt-analysis. It is like solving

21 a puzzle, where the decoded file, you try to solve it and

22 convert it back to plain text. The decoded is unreadable.

23 You try to convert it back into something readable.

24 Q What does the coded version of the files that you

25 saw on this computer look like? Could you describe it just

1887

1 in words?

2 A How decoded files look like?

3 Q Yes. What do they look like when you first see

4 them?

5 A The file names, they are text files because the

6 extension of the file name ends with a TXT and a WRI. So

7 obviously these are text files and write, word processing

8 files. But when I looked at them it is unreadable. It

9 contains random, seemingly random ASCII characters which

10 cannot be read plainly.

11 Q Were you able to do any work on any of these

12 files that allowed you to convert them into something you

13 could read?

14 A Yes, sir. We proceeded to work on the files, and

15 it took us maybe about a week to be able to decode -- not

16 everything. There were several files that we were able to

17 decode and the others we just couldn't make anything out of.

18 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, at this time I would like

19 to ask if the witness could be shown what have been marked

20 Government's Exhibits 356 and 357 for identification.

21 Q Sir, do you recognize those documents?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q What are they?

24 A These are printout of the files we decoded.

25 Q Do Government's Exhibits 356 and 357 fairly and

1888

1 accurately show what it was that you got off of your

2 computer after doing work on two files that you had found in

3 the laptop computer?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, the government offers 356

6 and 357, and we have copies for everyone.

7 (Government's Exhibits 356 and 357 received in

8 evidence)

9 THE COURT: Mr. Canlas, 357 I have in front of me

10 here. Are you going to be talking about these? I see that

11 you are --

12 MR. SNELL: Yes, I will. I was going to wait for

13 the jury to get their copies.

14 THE COURT: All right, go ahead.

15 MR. SNELL: Shall I proceed, your Honor?

16 THE COURT: Yes, go ahead.

17 Q Mr. Canlas, with respect to Government's Exhibits

18 356 and 357, do you recall whether those files were active

19 files or recovered files on the computer as you originally

20 found them?

21 A I remember this as the cryptic, or decoded files,

22 although there are also active files with similar content.

23 Q Can you tell us whether you have compared the

24 contents of 356 and 357 as they exist now?

25 A Yes, sir. 356 looks like a subset of 357.

1889

1 Q By subset, do you mean that it is essentially the

2 first portion of 357?

3 A Yes, sir, it looks like 356 is a part of 357.

4 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, at this time I was going

5 to ask if the jury could be given a moment to read the

6 exhibits. I don't have any further questions on the

7 exhibits.

8 (Pause)

9 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, if I might proceed at

10 this point.


12 Q Mr. Canlas, did there come a time when you met

13 with representatives of the FBI concerning your work on this

14 computer?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q In fact, did there come a time when you provided

17 a diskette to the FBI containing work that you had done?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, could the witness please

20 be shown what has been marked Government's Exhibit 358 for

21 identification.

22 Q Sir, do you recognize that?

23 A Yes, sir.

24 Q How do you recognize it?

25 A It has my initials on it.

1890

1 Q What is it?

2 A It is a diskette that contains the encrypted

3 files, the decoded files, and programs we use to decode.

4 Q With that diskette, are you able to decode the

5 encrypted or coded files on the laptop computer that you

6 worked on?

7 A Yes, sir.


9 358.

10 (Government's Exhibit 358 received in evidence

11 (Stop stop.

12 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, I have objection

13 subject to application.

14 THE COURT: All right, I will hear the

15 application at the break.

16 Q Mr. Canlas, is there a date by your initials on

17 the diskette?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q What is the date?

20 A March 21, '96.

21 Q Is that the date that you provided that diskette

22 to the FBI?

23 A Yes, sir.

24 Q Before that time, had you also met with the FBI

25 concerning the computer?

1891

1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q Had you previously provided information about the

3 decryption work that you had done?

4 A Yes, sir, I told them about the decryption work.

5 Q Did there come a time when you received a

6 certificate from the United States government commending

7 your work in this case?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q Were you also approached about coming here to

10 testify in this trial?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q What is your understanding of the arrangements

13 that have been made to allow you to come here to testify?

14 A The arrangement was that I will be flown here

15 from the Philippines, they will be paying for my airfare, my

16 accommodations will be taken care of, we get an allowance,

17 daily allowance, and that I will be compensated for my lost

18 time in terms of the work that -- I will be away from my

19 work.

20 Q Sir, did you receive any orders from anyone to

21 come here to testify?

22 A No direct order, sir. I was requested and I

23 acceded.


25

1892

1 MR. SNELL: Thank you. Nothing further.

2 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, I want to make an

3 application now in terms of legal argument.

4 THE COURT: Sure. Ladies and gentlemen, would

5 you step outside, please.

6 (Jury excused)

7 (Witness temporarily excused)

8 THE COURT: What is your application?

9 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, might I be allowed to

10 address the court?

11 THE COURT: Sure.

12 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, the defendant contends

13 that most particularly with the witness who has just

14 completed direct testimony, that the government has

15 proffered a number of witnesses, and again most particularly

16 this witness, concerning whom the application was addressed,

17 as in reality nothing more and nothing less than an expert

18 witness. This is not a fact gatherer or an observer of

19 incidents, or an introducer of evidence in a form that is

20 recognizable to each and every person. Most particularly

21 with this witness, we have presented before the jury nothing

22 less than opinion, because the fact of the matter is, as I

23 am sure your Honor has gleaned from the testimony of the

24 witness, that what was given to this witness was a computer

25 in a form that was not readily accessible in terms of the

1893

1 contents thereof, and that this witness was asked to use his

2 expertise and particular expertise to ascertain the contents

3 thereof, which is based upon his opinion and his work and

4 has now become evidence.

5 We suggest and would argue strongly to the court

6 that most particularly with this witness the defense should

7 have been given advance notice of this witness. Where the

8 court might well consider the fact that other witnesses'

9 identity should be safeguarded for reasons best known to the

10 prosecution, we suggest that there is no such necessity with

11 relationship to this witness. In point of fact, all the

12 information could have been made available without his name

13 because the name as such is of no significance.

14 My conclusions in this regard and my argument to

15 the court are based not only on what I heard in terms of his

16 testimony, much of which I admittedly would not readily

17 comprehend, based upon my total familiarity with pens and

18 total unfamiliarity with computers, but the fact that in

19 order to comprehend and readily understand the substance of

20 this witness's testimony it was necessary for me to spend

21 most of the night in contact with the expert witnesses that

22 the court was kind enough to authorize the defendant in

23 California, and through fax machines transmit them back and

24 forth, the problem not only relates to whether or not this

25 testimony should be admitted at this point given the failure

1894

1 of the government to give adequate notice to the defense but

2 also the fact that presenting this witness in the manner he

3 has so far been presented presents a severe obstacle to the

4 defense in terms of being able to cross-examine him. Any

5 attorney except an expert in this area would certainly want

6 to have an expert available to him in evaluating the

7 testimony as it was going on to frame certain questions, and

8 I suggest certain examples, if I might, to the court, again,

9 based upon what I have been told, certainly not my own

10 knowledge.

11 As I understand it, when this witness was first

12 given the computer and the hard drive, it was in a certain

13 manner, a certain form. It had a certain content. Based

14 upon the testimony of Inspector Taas, his attempts to browse

15 the files didn't really lead to anything.

16 As as I understand the testimony of this witness,

17 one of the first things he did after getting the computer in

18 its original evidentiary state, as he understood it, was to

19 add any number of programs to the hard drive, to the hard

20 disk that the that is on that computer. By doing that, as I

21 understand it again from the experts, he inevitably altered

22 the original content of that hard drive so that it was no

23 longer in the same state as when he received it.

24 What happened thereafter in point of fact as a

25 result of his workmanship and his opinion in terms of doing

1895

1 and not doing certain things, as I understand from the

2 experts, at this point if this witness says something was a

3 deleted file or not a deleted file, there is no way for

4 someone else to come in and say that is correct or not

5 correct, for the simple reason that they don't have access

6 to the same instrument or disk that this witness worked with

7 initially in putting in the programs.

8 One of the things that was uncertain because it

9 was not clear until the testimony this morning, and I

10 couldn't get a firm answer, it appears now, as I understand

11 it -- and I may be incorrect again -- that this witness

12 apparently prepared these diskettes and used these diskettes

13 to decrypt files, rather than decrypt using Morton Utility

14 or other functions that he inserted onto the hard disk, and

15 that in and of itself again presents opinion testimony in

16 the form of an expert.

17 THE COURT: Let me back up. First of all, the

18 mystery of computers is something which afflicts people of

19 your age and mine. Most of the kindergarten kids and most

20 of the kids by at least fifth or sixth grade can use

21 computers and run rings around the two of us. Here is a guy

22 who is still young, who has some understanding of it. He

23 can draw things off a computer that neither you nor I could

24 do. Does that mean it is unfair to let him testify as to

25 what he did?

1896

1 MR. KULCSAR: No, I am not -- I am sorry, your

2 Honor.

3 THE COURT: The answer is no. It is the same

4 thing as when I am stuck trying a patent case. You know,

5 the experts come in, tell me what is going on, and then the

6 fact witnesses come in and tell me what they did. But I

7 can't permit myself and you can't permit yourself and you

8 can't claim some great surprise because the witness has said

9 I have done so and so and so and so.

10 As for the changes, changes are additions, I

11 gather, and not deductions. There are two things. The

12 change to the overall universe of the disk. Were there

13 changes? Yes, by merely putting on a machine you basically

14 change it, believe it or not. But was there an addition is

15 a different thing. By drawing off matter which was already

16 put into the computer there is not a change. But by putting

17 on the computer you have changed it. By putting on the

18 computer and drawing off matter which had been inputted by

19 somebody else, can it be said you have changed it?

20 Absolutely it can be said that it has been changed.

21 Believe it or not, there are physicists, and I am

22 serious about this, who insist that when I look at the moon,

23 my looking at the moon changes it. I don't think it is a

24 change which the law can take cognizance of and I don't

25 think that in a situation like this makes this man's direct

1897

1 examination excludable or the government chargeable with

2 some kind of improper conduct because they permitted this

3 kind of thing to go on. That's what happens. We are doing

4 the best we can.

5 MR. KULCSAR: I know that, your Honor. I think

6 unfortunately it is unfair that you use an example from

7 physics, which is probably the only other area than

8 computers in which I am deficient. Leaving that aside, your

9 Honor, I purposely did not use the words "improper conduct"

10 in the sense of --

11 THE COURT: No, no.

12 MR. KULCSAR: I just want the record to be clear,

13 that I am not attributing some kind of conscious impropriety

14 to defeat the ability of the defense to cross-examine. I am

15 suggesting, though, given the nature of this witness's

16 testimony, it is very difficult for any lawyer, defendant

17 lawyer or otherwise, to cross-examine a witness based on the

18 fact that his testimony is in reality expert testimony, and

19 what I am suggesting is that the proper form, the proper

20 manner, rather, of handling this would have been to give us

21 adequate notice in advance as to the specific nature of this

22 witness's testimony, and in candor I did inquire of the

23 government at the end of last week as to the extent of this

24 witness's -- not knowing this witness's name but the next

25 witness's testimony, understanding the government's concerns

1898

1 up until now in terms of telling the defense more than

2 necessary or legally required. It was my understanding that

3 the witness was going to testify concerning some access that

4 he had with the computer, but not to the extent that he has

5 thus testified, which is clearly to me expert testimony.

6 THE COURT: Expert testimony, my recollection of

7 the definition of expert testimony is, when something is a

8 matter of art or science outside the ordinary ken of the

9 ordinary person, the courts will permit expert testimony.

10 The fact that you and I might be deficient in an area

11 doesn't necessarily make it outside the ordinary ken of the

12 ordinary juror. You know, the fact that you may consider

13 computers to be a mystery -- and other than the word

14 processing function I am not going to claim I know anything

15 about it whatsoever. Computers, they may be a mystery to

16 me. You know, I picture little men inside that box running

17 around plugging in things. But it doesn't matter. It is

18 not outside -- it is something that you can pick up. For

19 God's sake, you can go to Price Cart or Walmart and pick up

20 a book on it, and lots of people are doing it.

21 So to permit the guy to testify to what he did is

22 not expert testimony, as far as I am concerned. It is what

23 he did. The claim that he changed it -- I agree that he

24 changed it, but he changed it in a way which is not

25 something which would make it inadmissible.

1899

1 MR. KULCSAR: My suggestion, your Honor -- my

2 argument is, I think, for example -- I may be wrong --

3 Inspector Taas, whatever his correct title is, had testified

4 about the computer that he turned it on, did the browsing,

5 hit whatever letters are necessary to get a file, got a

6 file, A for Adam and whatever buttons, and Adam came up, and

7 there was a description of what the Adam file is.

8 I would agree, although that certainly is a

9 mystery to me, probably most of the people in the courtroom

10 but a few of us would say that is routine -- I know my

11 seven-year-old son would. What I am suggesting here is that

12 this witness did a lot more than that. He has testified to

13 files being encoded, encrypted, to decrypting files, to a

14 level of expertise that goes beyond that of the average

15 person that is knowledgeable in the area of computers. I

16 say that based on the fact that the people that I spoke with

17 during the night are experts in computers, and their

18 explanations to me were all couched in terms of this applies

19 to certain expertise and a certain particularized knowledge

20 beyond that which is readily available to people who are

21 involved with computers and word processing.

22 Obviously we have the opportunity as part of the

23 defense case to put some evidence in in that regard. But

24 what I am suggesting at this point, in order to properly

25 cross-examine the person who is now on the stand requires

1900

1 expertise beyond the fact of certain information that

2 certainly is within his general knowledge in terms of

3 certain items of evidence that were given to him, how they

4 came about and things like that. I think that that aspect

5 of the cross-examination, if no other relief is afforded the

6 defendants, that the defendants should be allowed to prepare

7 some time to prepare for further cross-examination of the

8 witness beyond the basic cross-examination that certainly

9 could be conducted, and directed solely to the areas of

10 expertise in terms of his encrypting and decrypting the

11 files and the methodology that was used. As I understand

12 it, again what I am told, based on what he testified this

13 morning, the methodology that he was successful in employing

14 is somewhat unusual and circumspect.

15 So I would ask the court at least to consider

16 that, that the defendants be allowed adequate time to

17 prepare for cross-examination with respect to areas just

18 directed towards his expertise in terms of what he encrypted

19 and what he decrypted, and that whatever other

20 cross-examination can be done certainly be done.

21 Thank you.

22 MR. GREENFIELD: May I --

23 THE COURT: Wait a minute.

24 May I ask you, Roy, one thing. Is there anyplace

25 in the rules that you know of which would provide a basis

1901

1 for this application?

2 MR. KULCSAR: I did, your Honor, and as I said, I

3 think part of what you are saying is certainly correct.

4 Based on my lack of knowledge, certain information that this

5 witness imparts, while it speaks of expertise, is probably

6 within the average ken of a lot of people and most people

7 that have some familiarity with computers, which can

8 certainly be imbued to most of society today. What I am

9 suggesting is that there are specific areas of this

10 witness's testimony that are clearly opinion, that are

11 clearly based on his particularized skill and knowledge in

12 an area and that he is testifying before the jury and

13 presenting particularized and specialized opinion evidence,

14 and it is clearly in the areas of encoding and crypting and

15 decrypting, and the methodology for doing that is not

16 something that, as I understand it, many people are facile

17 with.

18 In point of fact, it was my understanding,

19 speaking with the persons that I spoke with during the

20 night, that if in fact this witness were to testify that the

21 decryption he performed was based on not -- not based on

22 information that he put in the hard disk and was able to

23 retrieve from the hard disk in terms of a decryption method,

24 but rather based on independent disks that he created and

25 used, that is something that would have certainly taken a

1902

1 considerable amount of time and a great deal of

2 particularized knowledge and skill. So I am only asking

3 your Honor to allow relief in terms of cross-examining this

4 witness with respect to those areas.

5 THE COURT: What do you want? Let me put it to

6 you, what is your bottom line?

7 MR. KULCSAR: My bottom line, your Honor, in view

8 of the colloquy that we have had, is at least as far as

9 cross-examining the witness with respect to particular

10 methodologies he employed and skills he used to provide

11 decrypted information and the --

12 THE COURT: What would you like? A couple of

13 months to study up on it?

14 MR. KULCSAR: A couple months would be nice but I

15 don't think I was going to ask for a couple of months. I

16 was going to suggest maybe a couple days or a day or two, to

17 allow a witness either to prepare whatever he might prepare

18 in terms of sending it by fax or coming into the city.

19 Certainly not a month or two.

20 THE COURT: Do you want to be heard?

21 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, briefly, to set the

22 record straight, the defense have had the diskette,

23 Government's Exhibit 358, a copy of that, since mid-April of

24 this year. Long before that they have had decrypted --

25 THE COURT: They have had the diskette?

1903

1 MR. SNELL: Yes, sir. So there is absolutely no

2 basis for any argument of surprise here as to the contents

3 of that diskette, being they have had an opportunity to have

4 their experts look at that, how the decoding was done, and

5 there is no basis for any surprise argument.

6 MR. GREENFIELD: If I might be heard with respect

7 to that. You may have the result of a scientific expert but

8 you certainly want to know the basis for the experiment and

9 the testimony being proffered ahead of time so you can

10 properly cross-examine.

11 But in response to the court's question to Mr.

12 Kulcsar, I think 702 and 705 should have given us a basis

13 under the rules for receiving beforehand the information

14 that this witness would have testified and what the nature

15 of his testimony was going to be. We only learned yesterday

16 morning when we got in the courtroom that Mr. Canlas was

17 going to be a witness and what the extent of his testimony

18 was going to be, and we learned that from two handwritten

19 pages of notes, I assume prepared by Mr. Snell because I

20 know his handwriting from a prior case -- I believe I know

21 his handwriting from a prior case. That is the basis of our

22 preparation, two pieces of paper 3 by 5, with a couple of

23 jottings on it.

24 THE COURT: Wait a minute, there is more than

25 that from what I understand. You had the encryption

1904

1 material and the diskette. 703 requires that the basis for

2 the expert testimony be disclosed and apparently it was.

3 MR. GREENFIELD: We were told that this witness

4 would be testifying about a particular thing, tested under a

5 certain set of facts and used under a certain set of facts.

6 We had no idea that he had this on January 9, 1995, for

7 approximately what sounds like a couple hours, gave it back

8 to Colonel Levine, whatever his name is, and then got it

9 back two weeks later -- two days later, and we certainly

10 should have had that.

11 More importantly, your Honor -- and I am sure Mr.

12 Kulcsar meant to bring this up -- we are in New York City,

13 they put some guy on the stand who is, quote unquote, an

14 expert or a computer maven if not an expert in the

15 Philippines. What opportunity do we have in the Southern

16 District of New York now to go check his expertise, to find

17 out if he has the bona fides that he says he had, if he has

18 the education that he said he had, if he took the seminars

19 that he said he took. We are bound by that testimony. If

20 we got that ahead of time like you would get the

21 curriculum -- you know what I mean -- of an expert --

22 THE COURT: Levine is a guy you knew in the

23 Bronx, and it's curriculum vitae.

24 Look, David, the thing is, first of all, in a

25 civil case which most of the times you have expert witnesses

1905

1 appearing -- but let's assume just for a change of pace that

2 you have a doctor come in who testifies blah, blah, blah, as

3 to whatever he was doing. It is not going to -- you know,

4 nobody is going to have guts enough to stand up and say

5 Judge, delay the trial, I need to bring my own doctor down

6 here.

7 MR. GREENFIELD: But we would have gotten our own

8 doctor down here, right?

9 THE COURT: In a criminal case?

10 MR. GREENFIELD: Absolutely, Rule 16.

11 THE COURT: This is a fact witness.

12 MR. GREENFIELD: You don't know if he is being --

13 THE COURT: The doctor in my hypothetical is a

14 fact witness.

15 MR. GREENFIELD: It is not a mystery, as far as I

16 am concerned, it is beyond that. But it is a science. As a

17 science, it is outside the everyday ability of lay folk.

18 THE COURT: He is not bound by that.

19 MR. GREENFIELD: He is not a user in the ordinary

20 sense. He is a guy whose business revolves around

21 computers. He is the head of the analysis group,

22 apparently, in the PNP. This is an expert and we should

23 have gotten ahead of time knowledge that he was coming so

24 that we could have collected into his bona fides. Now we

25 are stuck with what he said. It really goes to one of the

1906

1 motions I made pretrial with respect to being deprived of

2 due process --

3 THE COURT: Don't repeat that.

4 MR. GREENFIELD: -- because of the

5 jurisdictional --

6 THE COURT: I know, don't repeat it. The answer

7 is no. We are going ahead with the cross-examination.


9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1907

1 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, having already imposed

2 on the Court for the argument, would it be possible to have

3 about 15 minutes so that I could just give -- I assume Mr.

4 Yousef is going to go first -- whatever nutshell information

5 I got during the night?


7 MR. KULCSAR: Thank you.

8 (Recess)





13 Q Good morning, sir.

14 A Good morning.

15 Q Sir, was it your testimony yesterday that you

16 work as a consultant for the Filipino National Police?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And for how long did you work as a consultant for

19 the PNP?

20 A Since 1987, sir.

21 Q Do you have an office located in the PNP building

22 or complex or whatever?

23 A Yes, sir.

24 Q And is that the Camp Crame?

25 A That is correct, sir.

1908

1 Q Sir, what program languages did you learn or take

2 during the course of your computer study course?

3 A Programming BASIC in the C language, a little C

4 Plus Plus, visual BASIC. I also do some assembly language

5 programming work.

6 Q Now, sir, was it your testimony that at some time

7 on January 9th of 1995 you received a computer?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q Do you remember what time it was?

10 A The evening of January 9th, maybe about 9 --

11 between 9 to 10 p.m.

12 Q Now, the computer, as you see it today, does it

13 appear in the same condition when you saw it on January 9th

14 of 1995?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, may I ask the

17 witness to be shown Government Exhibit 301.

18 THE COURT: Sure.

19 MR. SNELL: It's 301, your Honor.

20 Q Sir, there was a time in which you switched on

21 the computer and used it, am I correct, on January 9th?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q Did you use also the track ball of this computer?

24 A Yes, sir, when I ran Windows.

25 Q Sir, would you take look at the track ball of

1909

1 this computer now. Does it appear in the same condition as

2 when you first saw it on January 9th, 1995?

3 A May I open it?

4 THE COURT: Sure.

5 (Pause)

6 A It looks the same except that this should not

7 come off. I think it got broken or something.

8 THE COURT: In other words, when you say this,

9 you're talking about the ball, the track ball?

10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, this, your Honor.

11 Q Was this ball broken on January 9th, 1995?

12 A I'm sure it was not broke at that time because I

13 was able to use it. I don't know if it could still function

14 as it is now, but I don't remember it dropping off -- the

15 ball dropping off when I first used it.

16 Q Was it intact when you first saw it?

17 A Yes, I think so.

18 Q Now, sir, when you first got the computer, did

19 you switch it on and look at the contents of the computer at

20 the same time?

21 A Yes, sir. I had to switch it on to look at the

22 contents.

23 Q Now, sir, does this computer works on electricity

24 or it has a dry cell battery?

25 A It can work on electricity, and it can also work

1910

1 using its internal battery.

2 Q And when you used it on January 9th, 1995, did

3 you use the dry cell battery or the electricity when you

4 functioned the computer?

5 A When I got it, I think the battery was not

6 charged, it was not fully charged, so I had to use the power

7 supply. I could have used this power supply, but I also

8 have spare power supply and an AC adapter handy, so I could

9 have used any of this or my own adapter.

10 Q When you were given the computer, were you also

11 given batteries for this computer?

12 A I don't remember receiving any batteries.

13 Q Were you given any battery chargers?

14 A No, sir. It's just what I saw was what's here

15 now.

16 Q Now, when you first switched on the computer,

17 what did you see on the screen?

18 A Well, when I first turned on the computer,

19 Windows booted up, so I saw a Windows screen. That's the

20 first thing that I saw.

21 Q Could you explain for us, please, if you saw any

22 text or drawings or photographs as you switched the computer

23 on.

24 A Yes, sir. I remember seeing on the screen some

25 sort of a drawing, a tree with some fruits and some

1911

1 graphics. At first I thought it was just lines. I didn't

2 really make anything out of it.

3 Q Did this come out by itself or you pressed any

4 buttons to make it appear on the screen?

5 A When you first turn on the computer, it will

6 appear on the screen. It's part of the Windows opening

7 screen.

8 Q Would you explain the drawing a little bit more,

9 sir, the drawing which comes out when you switched on the

10 computer.

11 A A tree with some red fruits and what appears to

12 be just doodles or scribbles on the bottom.

13 Q Now, sir, is there a digital watch inside the

14 computer?

15 A A digital -- I'm sorry?

16 Q Does the computer have a watch function or a time

17 and date function?

18 A Yes, sir. All computers have their internal

19 system clock that tracks time.

20 Q And does this clock tells you the exact time and

21 date even when the computer is switched off?

22 A Yes, sir. Normally computers have internal

23 batteries so they retain the time even if the power is off.

24 Q Is that a special battery for the clock itself

25 inside the computer?

1912

1 A Yes. Usually most computers have a small battery

2 inside there for that function.

3 Q Did you check to see whether this computer had a

4 battery inside it for its clock when you received it on


6 A No, sir. I did not open the computer, meaning

7 open it up physically to look inside.

8 Q Did you check to see if the date functions or the

9 clock itself was working in the computer?

10 A At that time, sir, I did not think the time was

11 important, so I would have seen the timing in the files, but

12 I did not bother to check if the clock was accurate or it

13 was running.

14 Q Now, sir, if the clock was running and you create

15 a file inside the computer, does the computer assign a date

16 to show the date of creation of that file?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And does it also show a time beside the date?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Now, when you gained access or when you enter

21 into one of the files of the computer, does the computer

22 assigns another date showing when you modified or when you

23 entered into that file?

24 A When you first create the file, it is time

25 stamped.

1913

1 Q And after that, if you entered the file again

2 after a few days, would the computer assign a different date

3 and time to show when you accessed or when you entered into

4 this file?

5 A If that is a new file you created during that

6 time, it will have the new time.

7 Q If you have an old file and you entered into that

8 old file and you changed its contents, does the computer

9 show the date and time for when you entered this file?

10 A If you enter a file, it will contain the original

11 date and time of the file you loaded it in.

12 Q Other than the original date of the creation of

13 the file, does the computer keep any list or does it store

14 anywhere the times and dates when a person gained access to

15 these files?

16 A If you are just reading the files, sir, it will

17 not alter any date. Only if you write on the file will it

18 alter the date.

19 Q Does it store that date somewhere?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q Does it store all the dates in which you entered

22 the file and changed its contents or just the last date when

23 you changed its contents?

24 A The last date when you changed its contents.

25 Q Does it store the date if you gained access to

1914

1 the file without changing its contents?

2 A No, sir. If you just read the file without

3 changing anything, it will not alter the date stamp.

4 Q And is it possible for you to check the dates on

5 the files to see when they were last modified?

6 A When you do a directory command, it will show you

7 the name of the file, the date, and the time that it was

8 created or last modified.

9 Q Now, you received the computer on the evening of

10 January 9th, 1995, is that correct?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Now, prior to gaining access to the files, did

13 you check to see when was the last time in which the files

14 which were stored in this computer were modified?

15 A Not consciously checking on each file. I just

16 did a directory. I saw -- I was more concerned about file

17 names than file dates.

18 Q Did you check to see if any of the files which

19 were stored in the computer, if their contents were modified

20 between January 7th and January 9th, when you received it?

21 A No, sir.

22 Q So, if the contents of the files were modified,

23 you would have no personal knowledge to tell that, am I

24 correct, sir?

25 A No, sir.

1915

1 Q When you say no, that means that's incorrect?

2 A Can you repeat the question again, please.

3 Q You don't have any personal knowledge of whether

4 the contents of the files were modified between January 7th

5 and January 9th of 1995, am I correct, sir, just from

6 looking at the last date of access to these files?

7 A If I look at the files, I will see the dates. I

8 will be able to tell when the files were last modified. It

9 will be clearly shown in the date and time stamp of each

10 file.

11 Q Now, on January 9th of 1995, when you switched on

12 the computer, did you write down when was the last date of

13 access or when was the last time when the files were

14 modified prior to gaining access to them?


16 THE COURT: I think he's already answered it.

17 But answer it again. Go ahead, answer it again.

18 Did you write down the last time that you could ascertain

19 that files were modified?

20 A No, sir.

21 Q Prior to gaining access to any of the files, did

22 you make a copy of the computer disk, did you make a copy of

23 all the files which were stored in the computer disk?

24 A Can you repeat the question again, sir.

25 Q When you first switched on the computer, did you

1916

1 make a copy of the contents of the disk, of the computer

2 disk, prior to gaining access or browsing the files?

3 A Do you mean the hard disk, the contents of the

4 hard disk, sir?

5 Q Yes, sir.

6 A No, I did not make any copy of the contents of

7 the hard disk.

8 Q Will you explain what the hard disk is, please.

9 A The hard disk is a storage device inside the

10 computer which contains all the data, the programs in the

11 computer.

12 Q Now, is it correct, sir, that the proper

13 procedure would have been to make a copy of the hard disk

14 before gaining access to the files or storing anything in

15 the computer in order to preserve the integrity of the files

16 and of the contents?

17 A Under normal circumstances, that is the correct

18 procedure, sir.

19 Q Now, sir, I would like to turn your attention to

20 Government Exhibit 355.

21 THE COURT: 355, do you have that?

22 THE WITNESS: No.

23 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Here you go.

24 Q Sir, did you see all of these files which are

25 contained in Government Exhibit 355, did you see all of

1917

1 these files on January 9th of 1995, on the evening of

2 January 9th?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q How many hours did you spend in browsing the

5 computer and looking at its contents on January 9th of 1995?

6 A That would be about five hours, sir, from 10 in

7 the evening up to about 3 a.m.

8 Q Now, sir, I would like to direct your attention

9 to the second page of Government Exhibit 355.

10 THE COURT: Do you mean page 2, the one with the

11 2 on the bottom?

12 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Yes, the page with the 2.

13 THE COURT: Okay.

14 Q Sir, was it your testimony yesterday that when

15 you first saw this file, you assumed that the words looked

16 like Arabic words?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Sir, do you speak or read or write Arabic?

19 A No, sir.

20 Q Do you know what are the other languages use the

21 same letters as an Arabic language?

22 A Well, do you mean the characters that are used,

23 each letter?

24 Q Yes, sir.

25 A Like regular English letters.

1918

1 Q Well, sir, can you tell the difference between

2 Arabic language, Pakistani language, the Turkish languages,

3 the Irani language if they were all written in English

4 letters?

5 A No, sir.

6 Q So how did you come to the assumption at that

7 time that this file was written in Arabic words as opposed

8 to any other language?

9 A As I said, sir, they looked like Arabic, but I'm

10 not really sure. That was only my interpretation.

11 Q And did you reach that assumption at the same

12 time, at the first night when you saw this file?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q Now, sir, you also testified that there were some

15 deleted files and you recovered them, am I correct?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q Now, is it possible for a person, before erasing

18 a file or deleting a file, that he change its contents, then

19 he would delete it?

20 A Could you repeat the question again.

21 Q Before you delete a file, can you change its

22 contents and then delete it?

23 A It's possible, sir.

24 Q Now, the deleted files which you testified about

25 yesterday and which are contained in Government Exhibit 355,

1919

1 is there any way for you to tell us when these files were

2 deleted? Do you know if they were deleted before January

3 7th or after January 7th of 1995?

4 A Each file will contain the date and time stamp of

5 the last time it was modified. The time it was deleted will

6 not be reflected in the file name.

7 Q Now, sir, I will like to turn your attention to

8 the first page. Is that a deleted file or was that an

9 active file?

10 A This was an active file, sir.

11 Q And what was the file name?

12 A From here, sir, I will not be able to tell the

13 file name, but if I can see the directory of the disk, I can

14 tell you exactly the file name of this file.

15 Q Do you have a list of the contents of the

16 directory of this computer?

17 A Not right now, sir.

18 Q Now, sir, did you print out this page by

19 yourself?

20 A All the printing was done the Wednesday, January

21 11th in the afternoon at the office.

22 Q And did you do the printing yourself?

23 A I was there when it was being printed.

24 Q I'm sorry, sir?

25 A I was there when it was being printed. I had an

1920

1 assistant doing the printing.

2 Q Now, sir, did you specifically print out each of

3 the pages of Government Exhibit 355?

4 A All of this were printed in our office. Well,

5 this are copies of this list, but we did print this in our

6 office.

7 Q And what are they, sir?

8 A I am sorry?

9 Q What are they? What are the rest of the pages

10 which were printed from the computer?

11 A All the printouts we turned over to our director.

12 Q Now, sir, the text as it appears on this page, is

13 it the same as when you printed it out on Wednesday?

14 A As far as I can remember, yes.

15 Q And does it have the same appearance?

16 A I am sorry?

17 Q Does it have the same appearance, sir, the size

18 of the letters?

19 A The font? You mean the fonts, the type of the

20 letters which was used?

21 Q Yes, sir.

22 A Well, in printing text files, the fonts are

23 done -- the type of the characters, the way the characters

24 look, can be different if you use a different printer.

25 Q The one which appears on this page, do they

1921

1 appear to be the same size and the same font when you

2 printed them out on Wednesday of January 1995?

3 A They could look the same, but it's been a long

4 time. I will have -- I don't remember anymore.

5 Q Now, sir, did you compare the pages which are

6 shown in front of you of Government Exhibit 355 with the

7 pages which you printed out on Wednesday of January 1995?

8 A If you mean compare them here?

9 Q Well, whether here or when you were in the

10 Philippines.

11 A I will not be able to compare -- I just saw this

12 document here. The rest of what we printed before, as I

13 said, on that Wednesday afternoon, we printed everything

14 out, and then we turned over those printouts to our

15 director, so I didn't see the printout anymore.

16 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, I have a document

17 I would like to be shown to the witness.

18 THE COURT: Sure. Mark it as defendant's exhibit

19 and show it to the witness.

20 Roy, do you remember what letter we're up to?

21 MS. GRANT: D.

22 MR. KULCSAR: D.

23 THE COURT: Yousef Exhibit D.

24 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Defendant Yousef Exhibit D is

25 marked for identification.

1922

1 Q Now, sir, I would like you to take a look at the

2 document in front of you and compare it with page number 1

3 of Government Exhibit 355. Now, sir, are you familiar with

4 the contents of the documents in front of you, the defense

5 exhibit?

6 A They look similar to this one here.

7 Q And which one looks similar to the one which you

8 printed out on Wednesday of January 1995?

9 A This would be something like our printout.

10 Q Something like what you printed out?

11 THE COURT: This being Exhibit D. Go ahead.

12 THE WITNESS: Exhibit D.

13 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, I would like to

14 offer it into evidence.

15 MR. SNELL: Could we take a look, please?

16 THE COURT: Yes, sure.

17 (Pause)

18 MR. SNELL: No objection.

19 THE COURT: Pass it over to defense counsel.

20 (Pause)

21 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Defendant Yousef Exhibit D is

22 received.

23 (Defendant Yousef Exhibit D received in evidence)

24 Q Now, sir, can you tell us if there are any

25 significant differences between Defendant's Exhibit D and

1923

1 Government Exhibit 355, page number 1?


3 THE COURT: Can you tell us what differences

4 there are? Well, the jury can see the two of them and

5 compare them.

6 A The fonts used are different.

7 Q Now, sir, how many pages did you print out on

8 Wednesday afternoon?

9 THE COURT: This is January the 11th?

10 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Yes, January 11th of 1995.

11 A I will not be able to tell you the exact number

12 of pages. I can just tell you that there were a lot of

13 pages.

14 THE COURT: Would there be as many as say a

15 hundred?

16 THE WITNESS: A close guess maybe because I

17 remember we printed in duplicates, one did go to our

18 director, and the other set went to my direct superior, Col.

19 Delfin.

20 Q Sir, approximately what's the number, if you

21 know, of the text pages which you printed out on January

22 11th, 1995?

23 A I could give you an estimate, but I will be

24 guessing. Maybe around 40 pages, and then double that

25 because of the duplicates, but I'm not really sure about the

1924

1 exact number.

2 Q And the 40 pages of text which were printed, were

3 they the only pages which you were able to print out from

4 that computer?

5 A Did you say text, text pages?

6 Q Yes, sir.

7 A We did print out pictures, too. When I said the

8 number of pages, these are both the text and the pictures

9 which are combined.

10 Q And where are the pages which you printed on

11 January 11th of 1995? Do you have them with you?


13 THE COURT: He's already answered that one. Next

14 question.

15 Q Sir, the 40 pages which were printed on January

16 11th, were they the only pages which you printed out from

17 that computer?

18 A Could you repeat the question again, please.

19 Q The pages which you printed out on January 11th,

20 Wednesday afternoon, 1995, were they the only pages which

21 you printed out from this computer?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q Now, sir, when did you first see the files which

24 appear to be the encrypted?

25 A Are you referring to the encrypted or encoded

1925

1 files, when I first saw them?

2 Q Yes, sir.

3 A On the night of the 9th, when I first got the

4 computer.

5 Q On the night of the 9th?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q Were they erased files?

8 A Some of them were erased files, some of them were

9 active files.

10 Q And the erased files, do you know when they were

11 erased?

12 A As I said earlier, sir, looking at the file

13 names, there will be a date and a time stamp that would --

14 that date would indicate the last time the files were

15 modified, but as to the date when they were erased, there

16 would be no indications.

17 Q Now, did you see all the coded files, what

18 appeared to you to be coded files, did you see all of them

19 on January 9th?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q Now, was it your testimony that Col. Delfin took

22 the computer on January 10th, 1995?

23 A Yes, sir, the following morning.

24 Q And then he brought it back on January 11th?

25 A Yes, sir.

1926

1 Q Now, when he brought it back, did you check to

2 see if any of the contents or the last date of access of the

3 computer files were modified or not?

4 A The ones that I remembered seeing, sir, were the

5 original files that I saw that night, that were in there

6 that night, the files that I recovered, the files that I

7 thought was important, the files that we printed.

8 Q Did you check to see if any of the last date of

9 access to these files were changed?

10 A I would have noticed any change by just looking

11 at the directory and the date.

12 Q Now, sir, when the computer was brought to you on

13 January 11th, what were you instructed to do with the

14 computer at that time?

15 A To print out the files, the important files, and

16 then to work on the encoded files.

17 Q And did you print out any files from the computer

18 on January 11th?

19 A Yes, sir. I already answered that. We printed

20 the files that afternoon.

21 Q When were you asked to decode these files?

22 A Did you say what was --

23 Q When were you asked to decode the files?

24 A That same afternoon, sir. After our printing we

25 started work on the decoding.

1927

1 Q Sir, the decoded files, were they unintelligible

2 or were they readable files?

3 A Can you repeat the question. The decoded files?

4 Q The coded files which you were asked to decode

5 them, were they unintelligible or were they readable files?

6 A Coded files are unintelligible. You will see

7 random characters, seemingly random characters, and they

8 will be unreadable.

9 Q Now, did you search or browse into the computer

10 to see if there was any file which could have possibly been

11 used by the user of the computer or the owner of the

12 computer to decode these unintelligible files?

13 A There were files that appears like the coded

14 version and the plain text version of the same -- with the

15 same content.

16 Q Did you see any files or any files that could

17 have possibly been used to decode these unintelligible

18 files?

19 A Yes, sir. We saw several programs written in

20 BASIC that seemingly appears to be encryption programs or

21 programs for encoding files.

22 Q I'm sorry, sir, you said BASIC. Will you explain

23 what that is, please.

24 A BASIC, sir, is a programming language. Using

25 BASIC, you can create programs to do data processing, and

1928

1 encoding -- or coding is a data processing application.

2 Q Did you use these files to decode the

3 unintelligible files?

4 A If you mean did we use the programs to decode the

5 unintelligible files?

6 Q Yes, sir.

7 A No, sir, we did not.

8 Q Now, sir, when the computer was brought to you,

9 was anything else, any other accessories of the computer,

10 brought to you also, other than the cable?

11 A Are you referring, sir, to the afternoon of the

12 11th?

13 Q On January 9th, 1995, the first time.

14 A Are there any -- and you are asking if there are

15 any other accessories that came with the computer?

16 Q Yes, sir.

17 A As I said earlier, sir, what I saw here was what

18 I remember to be everything that was given to me that night.

19 Q Did they bring to you at any time any computer

20 diskettes?

21 A No, sir.

22 Q Did they bring to you any scanners?

23 A No, sir.

24 Q Did they bring to you any printers?

25 A No, sir.

1929

1 Q Now, sir, when was the first time when you saw

2 the device which you testified and which you said that can

3 be used to send faxes through the computer?

4 A That same evening, sir.

5 Q And who was the person who gave it to you?

6 A The same person, sir, who brought the computer.

7 Q And did that person tell you that came from room

8 603?

9 A I'm sorry, sir? Can you repeat the question.

10 Q Did that person tell you that this device came

11 from room number 603?

12 A Room 603?

13 Q From the Josefa building?

14 A I don't understand the question, sir. Are you

15 referring to that evening of January 9th?

16 Q Yes, sir.

17 A I don't know of any room 603.

18 THE COURT: Did you know where the computer came

19 from?

20 THE WITNESS: Oh, no, sir. I was not told where

21 the computer came from.

22 THE COURT: Okay.

23 Q Now, sir, were you told anything regarding the

24 circumstances under which the computer and the other items

25 you have identified came to the possession of the Filipino

1930

1 National Police?

2 A No, sir, I was not informed of anything. The

3 only information I got from Col. Delfin was that this was an

4 urgent work that has to be done, so that's the reason why I

5 had to work on it overnight, and that it concerns security

6 preparations for the Pope's visit. That was all I was --

7 that I know.

8 Q Now, sir, you talked about the hard disk area.

9 Will you describe how the hard disk looks like.

10 A Are you referring to the hard disk inside this

11 computer or any hard disk?

12 Q No, the hard disk of this computer, sir.

13 A Physically? You want me to describe how it looks

14 like physically?

15 Q Yes. Just general description of how the hard

16 disk looks like.

17 A Sir, it will be a small device about -- most

18 probably it will be maybe three or four inches in width and

19 maybe another three or four inches in length, about half an

20 inch thick, and it's an electronic device. But I'm not

21 describing what's inside because I never opened the computer

22 and looked physically inside the computer. I am describing

23 a typical hard disk.

24 Q Now, what's the function of the hard disk, sir,

25 inside the computer?

1931

1 A To store data and programs, sir.

2 Q All the files and data, all of them are stored in

3 the hard disk?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q Now, is a hard disk, is it a removable device?

6 Can you remove the hard disk and replace it by another hard

7 disk?

8 A Not with this computer, sir. This computer is

9 not designed to have a removable hard disk, although there

10 are hard disks that are designed to be removable.

11 Q Well, can you take a computer to a computer

12 company or any computer workshop and ask them to replace the

13 hard disk of the computer?

14 A I think that is possible, sir.

15 Q Now, sir, if you would take out the hard disk of

16 this computer and replace it with another hard disk which

17 contains different files and then you switch the computer

18 on, would the computer tells you the contents, any of the

19 contents of the previous hard disk?


21 THE COURT: I'll let him answer it.

22 If you know.

23 A If you're saying if the hard disk is replaced and

24 then I turn it on, will I be able to tell the contents of

25 the previous hard disk?

1932

1 Q Yes, sir.

2 A Obviously not, sir.

3 Q Now, sir, if I have a similar computer to the one

4 which is in front of you now, if I have one and I replaced

5 its hard disk with a different hard disk which contains

6 different files and then I turned over the computer to you,

7 when you switch on the computer, would you be able to know

8 at all if the hard disk was replaced or not?


10 THE COURT: No, he can answer it. Go ahead.

11 A As I said, sir, no, I will not be able to tell.

12 Q Are there any specific examinations or tests

13 which you can conduct on the computer in front of you to

14 enable you to know whether its hard disk was replaced or

15 not?

16 A If it can be opened, sir, an inspection or a

17 visual inspection of the inside of this computer would

18 probably tell you if it was -- the hard disk was replaced or

19 not.

20 Q Sir, did you do an inspection yourself to see if

21 the hard disk was replaced after January 7th of 1995?


23 THE COURT: No, I'll let him answer.

24 You didn't open it?

25 THE WITNESS: I didn't open it.

1933

1 THE COURT: Okay.


3 brief moment?

4 THE COURT: Sure.

5 (Pause)

6 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, I would like the

7 witness to be shown what's been marked as Government Exhibit

8 3529B for purposes of identification.

9 THE COURT: 3529B, do I have that here?

10 MR. SNELL: Yes.

11 Q Sir, are you familiar with the contents of this

12 document?

13 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, I would like the record

14 to reflect that something else was given to the witness.

15 THE COURT: You're looking at 3529A.

16 MR. KULCSAR: It's the second one.

17 THE COURT: The second one, that's B.

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q Have you seen this document before?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q And when did you see it first?

22 A I wrote this document about two weeks before I

23 got here.

24 Q Two weeks before you --

25 A I arrived here.

1934

1 Q Where did you write it down, sir? Where were you

2 when you wrote this document?

3 A I was at the office at Camp Crame.

4 Q You were in the Philippine National Police

5 office?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q Now, sir, what was the reason writing this

8 document down?

9 A When I was requested to appear as a witness, I

10 felt I had to review the dates because this thing happened a

11 long time ago, and I had to be sure about the dates, so I

12 just wrote this down. I confirmed with Col. Delfin. The

13 purpose was just to verify if my recollections of the dates

14 were correct.


16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1935

1 Q Who asked you to write down this report, sir?

2 A This was my own -- I did this on my own.

3 Q Did anyone suggest to you to write it down?

4 A No, sir.

5 Q Sir, does this document reflect your contact with

6 the computer and your activities with the computer?

7 A Can you repeat the question.

8 Q Withdrawn. Sir, would you explain to us what

9 this document is.

10 A This is actually a time line, what I wrote down.

11 This helps me recollect the exact dates. It says here

12 Monday got computer, Tuesday morning return computer,

13 Wednesday worked IC, worked at the Intelligence Command

14 office. And then this is an approximation, the time two

15 weeks before from the time we printed and then worked on the

16 decoding until we got the break.

17 Q Sir, who else was in the room when you wrote this

18 document?

19 A Colonel Delfin and myself.

20 Q Would you explain to us, sir, what January 7

21 means.

22 MR. SNELL: Objection unless there is an offer,

23 your Honor.

24 THE COURT: Might as well at this point. I

25 assume somebody will offer it, one of you.

1936

1 MR. SNELL: I will offer it if he doesn't.

2 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: I offer it.

3 THE COURT: 3529-B received in evidence.

4 (Government Exhibit 3529-B received in evidence)

5 A January 7 it says here, Saturday A -- that is

6 what I presumed to be the date of the arrest. That is what

7 the letter A for.

8 Q I am sorry, the arrest of what, sir?

9 A The arrest of the person who owns the computer.

10 Q Is that something you were told by someone else?

11 A This was when we were discussing with Colonel

12 Delfin -- we were discussing the time line, he was helping

13 me recollect, and this was the time he said of the arrest.

14 MS. BARRETT: Objection.

15 THE COURT: Well, it came out, it's there, I am

16 leaving it. Go ahead.

17 Do you know anything about the arrest personally?


19 THE COURT: So anything about any arrest was only

20 told to you, right?


22 THE COURT: OK.

23 Q Sir, did you see any televised news conference

24 concerning the incident of January 7, 1995?

25 A January 7, no, sir.

1937

1 Q Sir, when did you turn over the computer to the

2 FBI?


4 THE COURT: First of all, did you turn over the

5 computer to the FBI?


7 THE COURT: Who did you turn it over to?

8 THE WITNESS: To my superior Colonel Delfin.

9 THE COURT: When was that?

10 THE WITNESS: The first time was on the morning

11 of January 10.

12 THE COURT: Then he gave it back to you on the

13 11th, right?

14 THE WITNESS: On the afternoon of the 11th, and

15 then after printing and copying the files to our own

16 computer, he got it the same afternoon, sir.

17 THE COURT: He got it the same afternoon right

18 back?

19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I returned it the same

20 afternoon.

21 THE COURT: OK.

22 Q Sir, do you know any of the names of the files of

23 Government's Exhibit 355? Starting the first page, sir,

24 page number 1.

25 A I can remember some of the file names. I might

1938

1 not be able to associate it with each one because there are

2 a lot of them.

3 Q Could you tell us if you remember on page number

4 1 what this file name was?

5 A By just looking at the content, I would not be

6 able to tell the file name.

7 Q What about the second page, sir?

8 A The same thing, sir. I can make a guess. I

9 remember some file names. But by just looking at the

10 printout, I would not be able to tell you accurately.

11 Q Sir, I would like to direct your attention to

12 what has been marked as Government's Exhibit 3529-C for the

13 purpose of identification. Sir, by looking at this

14 document, does it refresh your recollection as to the name

15 of the file on page number 1 of Government's Exhibit 355?

16 A Government's Exhibit 355, page 1 --

17 Q Yes, sir.

18 A I don't think it is in this list, sir.

19 Q Sir, the page number 2 of Government's Exhibit

20 355, now turning your attention again to Government's

21 Exhibit 3529-C, does that refresh your recollection as to

22 the name of the file on page number 2 of Government's

23 Exhibit 355?

24 A This file, sir -- this list, Government's Exhibit

25 3529-C, is a directory of the diskette that I gave the FBI,

1939

1 as indicated by my initials here, and these are the files,

2 the encrypted, or the coded files, and these two files that

3 you are presenting, sir, 355 -- pages 1 and 2 are active,

4 plain text files. They are not coded files, sir.

5 Q Sir, turning your attention again to Government's

6 Exhibit 3529-C, at the bottom of the first page do you

7 recognize the initials at the bottom of the page?

8 A One of them is mine, sir.

9 Q Sir, did anyone ask you to put your initials on

10 this page?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Who was that, sir?

13 A I remember it was the FBI, sir.

14 Q When was that?

15 A The date here says 3/21/96.

16 Q Where was that, sir?

17 A I remember this to be Camp Crame PNPIC office of

18 Colonel Delfin.

19 Q That was Camp Crame?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q In the Philippines?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q Do you recognize the other handwriting on this

24 page?

25 A No, sir.

1940

1 Q Sir, were the other initials written down in your

2 presence?

3 A Yes, sir. There is an FBI personnel that

4 initialed it in my presence.

5 THE COURT: Do you remember his name, or her

6 name? Was it a him or her?

7 THE WITNESS: There were three of them actually,

8 sir. Only one signed it, of course.

9 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: I do not have further

10 questions, your Honor.

11 THE COURT: Thank you.


13 BY MS. BARRETT:

14 Q Mr. Canlas, you stated that the hard drive of the

15 computer, the hard disk of the computer contains all the

16 data and programs of the computer, is that correct?

17 A That is correct, ma'am.

18 Q What is the operating system?

19 A DOS and Windows.

20 Q How does the hard drive, the hard disk relate to

21 the operating system?

22 A I don't understand the question, ma'am.

23 Q The operating system, is that where all the

24 application programs that are used in the computer?

25 A No, ma'am. The operating system and the

1941

1 application are two different programs. The operating

2 system is the core, we call it the kernel or the core

3 program, and all the applications communicate with that core

4 program, which is the operating system. So they are two

5 different programs.

6 Q So when you when you are using an application

7 program, you have to go through the operating system?

8 A Yes, ma'am.

9 Q That would include going through the operating

10 system -- that would include going to the hard disk to make

11 changes on any file or directories?

12 A Yes, ma'am.

13 Q You testified about utilities, and these are two

14 programs with various capabilities, is that correct?

15 A Yes, ma'am.

16 Q Is it fair to say that these two programs allow

17 you to manipulate the operating system?

18 A No, ma'am, they will not manipulate the operating

19 system.

20 Q Is it fair to say that it allows you to

21 manipulate information on the hard disk?

22 A You can manipulate information on the hard disk

23 using these tools.

24 Q And that includes retrieving data, as you

25 testified before? Retrieving data from the hard disk?

1942

1 A Yes, these tools are used for retrieving data on

2 the hard disk.

3 Q Also, is it fair to say that it also allows you

4 to alter or modify data on the hard disk?

5 A The program is capable of altering data on the

6 hard disk.

7 Q You talked about deleting files. Deleting files,

8 is that different from permanent removing of files from the

9 hard disk?

10 A Very different, ma'am. Removing would be --

11 well, removing would be something that you take off.

12 Deleting, you don't really take off the data. It's just

13 marked deleted, and the data is still there inside, but it's

14 just marked deleted.

15 Q But when you delete a file, that file is no

16 longer visible to the ordinary user, is that correct?


18 Q And when you view the directory file, you do not

19 see an entry of that file that is marked deleted.

20 A An ordinary directory would not reveal the

21 deleted files. It will not show on the directory.

22 Q But as you just stated, that does not mean that

23 the file has been physically removed, is that correct?

24 A Yes, ma'am.

25 Q Deletion, is it fair to say that deletion is done

1943

1 for various reasons?


3 Q Sir, you use computers every day, is that

4 correct?

5 A Yes, ma'am.

6 Q A computer does not have infinite space, is that

7 correct?

8 A Yes, ma'am.

9 Q It is usual or it is common that a user of a

10 computer would want to delete files to make space, is that

11 correct?


13 THE COURT: No.

14 A Yes, ma'am, that would be normal.

15 Q That is common practice for ordinary computer

16 users, is that correct?

17 A Yes, ma'am.

18 Q Would it be fair to say that a laptop computer

19 generally has less space than a desktop computer?

20 A Are you talking about hard disk space?

21 Q Yes, sir.

22 A It would depend on the hard disk. There are

23 desktop computers with smaller hard disk space than laptop

24 computers, so it is not generally the truth that there is

25 less space in a laptop.

1944

1 Q But is it generally common, in general, that

2 laptop computer generally has less space than desktop

3 computers?

4 A We have a laptop that has bigger hard disk space

5 than one of our desk tops. It is not generally, as I

6 said -- hard disks now are very large and very small, so it

7 can be fitted in a laptop.

8 Q A laptop computer, that is a portable computer,

9 correct?


11 Q That is generally used by a person who is not

12 able to walk around with big desktop computers.

13 A Yes, ma'am.

14 Q When you view a directory, the directory file

15 contains a listing of the directories and files, is that

16 correct?


18 Q Is it fair to say that the directory file is the

19 table of contents, with a listing of all the files?

20 A Did you say table of contents?

21 Q It is like a table of contents?

22 A Sort of.

23 Q When you view the directory, it contains the date

24 and the time, the last time that the file was modified, I

25 believe you testified.

1945

1 A Yes, ma'am.

2 Q And modified means basically that something is

3 added to that file?

4 A Added? Did you say added, ma'am?

5 Q Modified would include adding something to the

6 file, making some addition to the file. Would that be

7 considered modification?

8 A Adding, deleting, changing anything in the file,

9 ma'am.

10 Q And if a file is dated a certain time and date,

11 it could also mean that that was the date that the file was

12 created, is that correct?


14 Q Simply viewing or browsing into the computer does

15 not amount to modifying with respect to time and date, is

16 that correct?

17 A Yes, ma'am.

18 Q It is correct that it doesn't amount to

19 modifying?

20 A Just viewing the files will not alter the date

21 and the time stamped on the file.

22 Q No. When you access the computer, when you

23 access the computer and view files and look through files,

24 is it fair to say that there is no time and date that is

25 recorded?

1946

1 A Could you repeat that, the last part, ma'am?

2 Q Modification, when a file or directory is

3 modified it is reflected on the computer, time and date, is

4 that correct?

5 A Yes, ma'am.

6 Q But if you merely access the computer by viewing

7 and browsing at files, that date and time is not reflected,

8 is that correct?

9 A Yes, ma'am.


11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1947

1 MS. BARRETT: Your Honor, could we break now?

2 THE COURT: You want to take lunch now? All

3 right, ladies and gentlemen.

4 (Jury excused)

5 THE COURT: One of you guys should ask a

6 question -- I am not telling you that you have to.

7 Tell me. We talked about encryption. I have a

8 PC upstairs with Windows and the usual stuff on it, OK. If

9 I prepare a document, can I encrypt it?

10 THE WITNESS: If you have the encryption program,

11 your Honor.

12 THE COURT: It is not something out of the

13 ordinary to have an encryption program on a computer, is it?

14 THE WITNESS: There are some word processing

15 programs that have this feature built in.

16 THE COURT: How about WordPerfect?

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, WordPerfect.

18 THE COURT: So if I decided to keep something

19 from my wife on my home computer, I could encrypt it?

20 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.

21 THE COURT: Just want to check. Thank you.


23 THE COURT: What you may want to think about

24 doing is bringing that out, because you don't want the jury

25 to think that encrypting is something that bad guys do, lots

1948

1 of others do.

2 MS. BARRETT: Your Honor, I believe your Honor

3 sustained an objection when the witness testified about the

4 January 7 arrest date. I believe what he also stated was

5 that the date of the arrest of the person who owned the

6 computer was January 7, if my recollection is correct, your

7 Honor. I would ask that that be stricken from the record.

8 THE COURT: I asked him whether he knew anything

9 about it, and he said no, it was just what he was told. If

10 you want that part of it stricken, sure I will strike it,

11 what's the difference. I think the jury got the picture

12 anyway.

13 MR. GREENFIELD: Do you want an application now

14 or wait?

15 THE COURT: Sure, I will do it now.

16 MR. GREENFIELD: I would move for an application

17 with respect to the cross-examination of cocounsel as to the

18 computer at this point. I don't think it is anything more

19 than a reaffirmation of direct and brought out the Pope one

20 more time, and again I don't think there was any purpose,

21 any focus, any discernible defense. It was certainly

22 antagonistic to my client's defense, and I move for a

23 mistrial.

24 THE COURT: Same ruling.


1949

1 AFTERNOON SESSION

2 2:10 p.m.


4 THE COURT: Okay, Ms. Barrett.

5 REYNALDO CANLAS, resumed.

6 CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUED

7 BY MS. BARRETT:

8 Q Mr. Canlas, you referred to the operating system

9 as the core of the computer, is that correct?

10 A Yes, ma'am, the core of the software, software

11 core of the computer. This is to check against the hardware

12 core.

13 Q Did you call it the core program?

14 A Yes, that's correct.

15 Q And I believe you also referred to it as DOS?

16 A That's the operating system. It's called DOS.

17 Q The operating system.

18 Now, application programs that are loaded onto

19 the computer go through the operating system in order to

20 register information on the hard disk, is that correct?


22 Q An example of an application program would be the

23 Word Perfect program?

24 A Yes, ma'am.

25 Q Now, using an application program, for example

1950

1 the Word Perfect program, in order to register information

2 on the hard disk, it goes through the operating system all

3 the time, is that correct?

4 A Yes, ma'am.

5 Q And I believe you testified to the fact that

6 there is an internal clock mechanism that's inside the

7 computer?

8 A Yes, ma'am.

9 Q And that clock device or mechanism, does it

10 automatically record information that is put into the

11 computer?

12 A All files, ma'am, that are created in the

13 computer are time stamped, and that is the reference time,

14 the time provided by the system clock.

15 Q And the system clock, that is in the operating

16 system?

17 A The system clock is hardware, ma'am, it's not

18 software. It's read by the operating system.

19 Q So, in order for the computer to register the

20 time and date of an entry or of any kind of modification,

21 that has to be read by the operating system?

22 A Yes, ma'am, the time is read by the operating

23 system.

24 Q So would it be fair to say that the application

25 program that is used to cause a time to be registered

1951

1 generally goes through the operating system?


3 Q Now, the two programs that are utilities, is it

4 fair to say that they can bypass the operating system and go

5 directly to the hard disk?

6 A The program -- the utilities write data through

7 the operating system also.

8 Q But are there programs like the Norton -- are you

9 familiar with Norton Utilities?

10 A Yes, ma'am.

11 Q Are there programs like Norton Utilities and I

12 believe PCTOOLS, which I believe you testified about, do

13 they have the capability before bypassing the operating

14 system and go directly to the hard disk in order to make

15 alterations?

16 A Writing directly to the hard disk.

17 Q Is that --

18 A It can be done, ma'am.

19 Q And when that is done, there would be no

20 recordation of time, would that be correct?

21 A It's possible, ma'am.

22 Q Now, every computer has a time mechanism, which

23 you just stated, is that correct?

24 A Yes, ma'am.

25 Q And the laptop computer that you examined on

1952

1 January 9th, did that have a time clock, also?

2 A Yes, ma'am.

3 Q When you first had the computer, did you notice

4 whether or not it was operable, if the time clock was

5 operable at the time?

6 A I suppose so, ma'am. I did not see anything

7 unusual about the time when I first turned it on.

8 Q Well, would you say that the time of day that --

9 the time clock was consistent with the time of day, the time

10 and day that you were working on the computer?

11 A I would suppose so, but like any clock or watch,

12 it can be misset. There could be a discrepancy between the

13 actual time and the time in the computer, just like an

14 ordinary watch, could be late, could be advanced.

15 Q There would be no trace to show that that had

16 been done, that that was done, is that correct, that a time

17 had been altered, for example?

18 A No indication, ma'am.

19 Q Now, in using one of the tools, for example, in

20 bypassing the operating disk, could a person with skill in

21 computer use and knowledge, could that person use a tool

22 program to go into the hard disk and say alter the time --

23 when you view a directory or a file, does it generally state

24 the name of the file, the time and date that that file was

25 last worked on, is that correct?

1953

1 A That's correct.

2 Q Now, can you go into the hard disk with a tool

3 program and alter the date and time that that document --

4 that showed that the date and time that that document was

5 last worked on?

6 For example, say I last worked on a document

7 yesterday, July 9th, and I want it to be reflected that that

8 document was worked on on June 1st. Can I, with a tool

9 program, bypass the operating disk, go through the hard disk

10 and change that so the document appears to have been last

11 worked on on June 1st as opposed to July 9th?

12 A A knowledgeable person can do that.

13 Q What did you say, sir?

14 A A knowledgeable person can do that.

15 Q And because the tool program bypasses the

16 operating disk, isn't it a fact that that time that I made

17 that alteration would not be shown or reflected?


19 Q Based on your knowledge. If you know, sir.

20 THE COURT: Part of it's argumentative, but I

21 think the question is otherwise good.

22 The question is, you said you can go through the

23 computer tool operations and change the time that's shown.

24 Now, would that change be in any way recorded on the

25 computer?

1954

1 THE WITNESS: The file will reflect a new date

2 and time.

3 THE COURT: But other than that, nothing else

4 would show, is that correct?


6 THE COURT: Okay.

7 MS. BARRETT: I don't believe that was an answer

8 to my question, your Honor.

9 THE COURT: Okay.

10 Q My question was, if you use a tool program to

11 bypass the operating disk -- I'm sorry, to bypass the

12 operating system, make an alteration in the hard disk, isn't

13 it a fact that no time that -- that the time that I made

14 that alteration will not be reflected?

15 A Oh, you mean there is a file with changed data

16 and the date of that particular file will not be changed; is

17 that the question?

18 Q Well, let's go back to my example. My example

19 was like July 9th I made a modification to a document, but I

20 want to make it appear that the last time that I worked on

21 the document was June 1st. Am I able, with a tool program,

22 to bypass the operating system, go directly to the hard disk

23 and change the time and date that would have been reflected

24 in the computer that the last time and date that the

25 document was worked on was July 9 and make it appear that

1955

1 it's now June 1st; can I do that?

2 A Yes, ma'am.

3 Q And the time that I made that change would not be

4 reflected in the computer?

5 A Yes, ma'am.

6 Q Thank you.

7 And to take that one step further, no one would

8 be able to, without having actual knowledge, know that I

9 actually made that change, is that correct?

10 A Well, if the person doing that will just be

11 working on one file, it's a relatively -- well, an easy

12 thing to do for a knowledgeable person, but if we're talking

13 of the hard disk, changing each date and time of each file

14 would be an enormous task.

15 Q I'm not asking you whether it would be an

16 enormous task. I'm asking you whether or not there would be

17 any trace that I made that alteration on a particular file,

18 on any particular file?

19 A No, I don't think there would be any trace.

20 Q Now, encrypted files, these are files that are

21 text files in codes, is that correct?


23 Q And text files are files that you read, regular

24 readable files?

25 A Yes, ma'am.

1956

1 Q And is it fair to say that generally files are

2 kept in codes or encrypted files are made because the user

3 or the person creating the file would not want anyone to

4 look at that file; is that correct?

5 A That is one purpose.

6 Q So if I'm in my office and I wanted to create a

7 document that I don't want my secretary to read and I wanted

8 to put it in code, I could use an encryption program to put

9 that file in code, is that correct?


11 Q And encryption programs, is that a common use

12 among computer users?

13 A Well, some application programs have this

14 capability. Some word processing programs have the

15 capability to encrypt files.

16 Q Would it be fair to say that it doesn't require

17 an expert to use an encryption program?

18 A Well, you have to be familiar with the word

19 processing program that they're using.

20 Q Is Word Perfect one of the programs with

21 encryption?

22 A It has that feature.

23 Q And it has that capability?

24 A Yes, yes, ma'am.

25 Q How long did you work on the computer, from what

1957

1 date to what date?

2 A The evening of January 9 until early morning

3 January 10. That's from 10 p.m. to about 3. That's about

4 five hours. And then January 11, Wednesday afternoon, for

5 about maybe two hours just to print out everything and then

6 copying the contents to our -- to another computer.

7 Q When did you return the computer?

8 When you started working on the computer on

9 January 11th, did you work on the computer for a period of

10 time?

11 A Can you repeat the question, ma'am.

12 Q When was the last date that you worked on the

13 computer?

14 A January 11th.

15 Q January 11th. You never worked on the computer

16 after January 11th?

17 A Never.

18 Q Now, in viewing a file, does it sometimes show

19 the amount of space that that file takes up?

20 A Yes, ma'am.

21 Q And the word in computers that they use to

22 determine space, is that called bytes, B-Y-T-E-S?


24 Q So if you see a file that shows information that

25 the file has zero bytes and the file is dated January 18th,

1958

1 1996, would it be fair to say that there is no information

2 in that file?

3 A Yes, ma'am.

4 Q Would it also be fair to say that the file may

5 have been deleted on that day?

6 A No, ma'am. If you see the file name there, then

7 it's not deleted, it's just that it's empty, an empty

8 container, something like that.

9 Q Would it be fair to say that information may have

10 been deleted from that file on that date, since there is no

11 information in there?

12 A Normally --

13 Q Would it be possible?


15 THE COURT: Anything is possible, yes. Rephrase

16 the question.

17 Q Would it be a fair interpretation that when you

18 see the information that says zero bytes, which is an

19 indication that there is no information in that file, would

20 it be a fair interpretation that the information was deleted

21 from that file on the date that is marked next to the file?

22 A From my experience in working with computers,

23 this things, we call them null files or files that doesn't

24 contain anything. This files are created when, for

25 example -- an example, when you start -- when you run a word

1959

1 processing program, so you start the word processing program

2 and then you don't continue, like you don't type anything at

3 all and then you just quit. There's a big possibility that

4 it will create a file with a file name, whether it's a

5 temporary file name or a file name that you assign, that

6 will contain nothing because you did not type anything, but

7 you did create the file, but there's nothing inside. That

8 could happen.

9 Q That could happen. Could it also happen that

10 there was information in the file and it was deleted on that

11 date?

12 A Normally when a file is deleted it will not --

13 you can't see the file name, you not even see -- it's

14 nothing because it will not appear in the directory.

15 Q I apologize, sir. I meant information in the

16 file.

17 A I'm sorry.

18 Q You just gave us one interpretation of what that

19 could mean. My question to you -- and I apologize for

20 saying file. I meant information. Is it possible that

21 information could have been deleted from that file on that

22 date; could that be another interpretation?

23 A I think it's possible. Anything is possible.

24 Q And it could also be the date that the file was

25 created?

1960

1 A Yes.

2 Q Now, in viewing also the file, in looking at the

3 directory, if it shows that on January 7th, 1995, 4:19 a.m.

4 is reflected on a file, would it be fair to say that it's an

5 indication that something happened to that particular file

6 at 4:19 a.m. on January 7th, 1995?

7 A If that is the time stamp on the file, then yes.

8 Q Now, referring you to Government Exhibit 355, the

9 booklet that was handed to the jury yesterday, would you

10 look at page 11. I believe your description of this was

11 that it appeared to you to be an ID. Was that your

12 interpretation of this picture?


14 THE COURT: Is your interpretation of this

15 picture whatever it is, that's the question. Don't say

16 "was." Go ahead.

17 MS. BARRETT: Thanks, your Honor.

18 Q Is that your interpretation, that this is an ID?

19 A It looks like an ID, or at least it's proof of an

20 ID.

21 Q Now, so we are clear, could you tell us again how

22 an image gets into the computer. I believe you described it

23 as scanning?

24 A Yes, that's one way, to scan a picture and then

25 convert it into a file and then input it into the computer.

1961

1 Q Now, how does the scanning occur? Do you start

2 with a picture that you have?

3 A Yes, a picture.

4 Q And I believe you testified that you use a

5 device.

6 A Yes, ma'am.

7 Q And it's like a copy machine, a copier?

8 A It operates sort of like a copying machine.

9 Q And you are able to place this image into the

10 computer?

11 A Yes, ma'am.

12 Q Now, look at page 12. Would you say that that's

13 the same photograph?

14 A Yes, ma'am.

15 Q Now, back to page 11, this information that is

16 entered around the photograph, is it fair to say that that

17 information was created by the user who is entering this

18 information to make it appear that this is in fact one

19 document, the words that's typed next to the picture?

20 A The question is not clear to me, I'm sorry.

21 Q Well, the photograph --

22 A This one?

23 Q The photograph on page 12 and page 11, they're

24 the same photograph, correct?

25 A Yes, ma'am.

1962

1 Q Now, is it fair to say that the user, the person

2 that placed the photograph into the computer, created this

3 information, the name, date of birth, so on, et cetera,

4 around this photograph in order for it to appear as though

5 it's one document?



8 A If you would like me to -- I have an idea on how

9 this was made. Would you like the description?

10 Q Sure, the process as to how this is done.

11 A Well, I would assume this document on page 11

12 would -- is composed of several scanned images, such as one

13 scan, and one of the components is this picture on page 12.

14 Q And then the information is just put around this

15 image in order for it to appear like one document which you

16 said looks like an ID?

17 A Yes. Another program would have been used to

18 combine the different images into one, a graphics program.

19 Q Would this be analogous to those cardboard

20 figures that you see at these amusement parks, for example,

21 with the cowboy outfits and then there is a cut out space to

22 put a face in it, and when you take a picture, it comes out

23 looking like you're wearing a cowboy outfit or a bear outfit

24 or something like that? Is that what this is like here,

25 creating around the picture to make it look like one

1963

1 document?

2 A I'm not sure if I -- I don't have any idea on how

3 it was done, if it's really done that way.

4 Q But it's possible. I mean --


6 Q On page 12 there is no information that's

7 surrounding this photograph, is that correct?

8 A Yes, ma'am.

9 Q And it's the same photograph?

10 A Yes, ma'am.

11 Q Now, was it your testimony that Col. Delfin

12 requested that the computer be returned to him on January

13 10th?

14 A Yes, ma'am.

15 Q And did you inform the colonel at that time that

16 you had not yet finished what you were doing?

17 A Yes, ma'am.

18 Q And did he still insist that he had to have the

19 computer?

20 A Yes, ma'am.

21 Q Did he tell you that he needed to have the

22 computer back at Camp Crame?


24 THE COURT: You're getting into it, yes. I'll

25 sustain it.

1964

1 Q In any event, the colonel did retrieve the

2 computer, is that correct?

3 A Yes, ma'am.

4 Q And the next time you saw the computer was on

5 January 11th?

6 A Yes, ma'am.

7 Q Was that more than 24 hours after it left your

8 hands?

9 A I would say so, about 24 hours.

10 Q To your knowledge, are you the only civilian that

11 the Philippine National Police engaged as a consultant

12 regarding computers?

13 A To my knowledge, yes.

14 Q When they took the computer from you on January

15 10th, are you aware of any other civilian that was allowed

16 to browse through the computer?

17 A No, ma'am.

18 Q As a consultant to the Intelligence Command, do

19 you know members of that group that are familiar and skilled

20 in the use of computers?

21 A I'm familiar with the members of my group. I

22 don't know about the other persons because the command is a

23 big command. There's a lot of personnels.

24 Q When you say your group, what are you referring

25 to?

1965

1 A My office and a programmer and another person.

2 That's the group.

3 Q Are these persons employees of the Intelligence

4 Command?

5 A One is a civilian employee, yes, and another is

6 an enlisted personnel.

7 Q And do you know if any of the personnel that

8 you're familiar with -- are any of them familiar with the

9 computers?

10 A Are they familiar with computers?

11 Q Yes. Are they skilled in the use of computers?

12 A One, the civilian programmer, is.

13 Q Are you referring to people that are employed

14 with the Intelligence Command?

15 A Yes, they're employed with the Intelligence

16 Command.

17 Q Would you consider them an expert?



20 A Expert is a very broad term.

21 Q In your opinion, would you consider the person

22 expert, a very skilled person in the use of computers?

23 A They know how to programs. I would not say they

24 know everything.

25 Q Would they be familiar with tools and utilities?

1966

1 A They would have knowledge of utilities.

2 Q Now, when you saw the computer on January 11th,

3 were you shown printouts?

4 A No, ma'am. We printed -- we were the ones who

5 printed the -- created the printouts.

6 Q Before you started working on it, the first time

7 you saw it, were you shown any printouts that may have been

8 done before you saw it again?

9 A I don't remember seeing or else there's no reason

10 for us to print it out.

11 Q When you saw the computer again on January 11th,

12 was that at Camp Crame?

13 A January 11th, Camp Crame.

14 Q And when you worked on the computer there, were

15 you doing this alone?

16 A I was with my programmer.

17 Q And this programmer, who does he work for?

18 A For the PNP, Philippine National Police,

19 Intelligence Command.

20 Q And what did he do?

21 A Just print. That was my instruction to him.

22 Q He assisted you?

23 A I'm sorry?

24 Q He assisted you?

25 A Assisted? Yes, he was assisting me in printing.

1967

1 Q Now, I believe you stated that you worked with

2 the computer about six or seven hours the first time you had

3 the computer on January 9th.

4 A About five hours.

5 Q About five hours. And you did not have a printer

6 at that time?

7 A A printer? No, no printer.

8 Q In fact, you said you took notes.

9 A Just a page of notes.

10 Q Where are those notes?

11 A I turned it over to Col. Delfin.

12 Q When did you do that?

13 A The morning when he got the computer.

14 Q You turned over the notes to him?

15 A Yes, ma'am.

16 Q Did you have a chance to see those notes again?

17 A No, ma'am.

18 Q Do you know if Col. Delfin turned it over to the

19 government or to the FBI, if you know?

20 A I have no knowledge, ma'am.

21 Q Now, since you did not have a printer the first

22 time that you worked with the computer, you were not able to

23 retrieve any information, is that correct?


25 THE COURT: Were not able to -- I don't know

1968

1 what --

2 MS. BARRETT: To retrieve, your Honor.

3 Withdrawn.

4 THE COURT: Yes. When?

5 Q The first time you worked on the computer you did

6 not have a printer, is that correct?

7 A Yes, ma'am.

8 Q And is it fair to say, then, that you were not

9 able at that time to retrieve any information?

10 A No, I was able to retrieve information.

11 Q When you say retrieve information, you mean you

12 wrote the information down?

13 A Wrote the information down, noted all the

14 important files, identified at least the graphics files, the

15 text files. I saw the encrypted files.

16 Q How many pages were your notes?

17 A A whole page.

18 Q One page?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And how many files would you say the computer

21 contained?

22 A Maybe thousands, but I just jot down the

23 important ones. I didn't have to jot down everything.

24 Q Now, the information that is in Government

25 Exhibit 355, that booklet, that's printed information, is

1969

1 that correct?

2 A Yes, ma'am.

3 Q And that was not retrieved on January 9th and the

4 early morning of January 10th, is that correct?

5 A That was not printed that night, but it was there

6 when I browsed it that night.

7 Q Could you repeat that.

8 A When I browse the computer, meaning examine the

9 contents of the computer, this were the files I saw.

10 Q When did you retrieve this information?

11 A On the evening of January 9th up to the morning

12 of January 10th, five hours that I been working on the

13 computer.

14 Q How many hours did you work with the computer

15 when you started working on it on January 11th?

16 A Just to print it, about two hours.

17 Q Did you leave the computer at any time?

18 A No, ma'am.

19 Q After you printed the information, did you use

20 the computer again?

21 A Just to make copies of the files so I could

22 transfer it to our own computer, our office computer, so we

23 can continue working on the encrypted files.

24 Q Now, when you say you made a copy of the files,

25 are you talking about the hard disk?

1970

1 A Yes, copy the contents of the hard disk.

2 Q How many copies did you make?

3 A Just one for our computer.

4 Q And what happened to the computer after that?

5 A I returned it to Col. Delfin.

6 Q Was a copy of the hard disk given to the FBI?

7 A No, not that I know of, ma'am, and I would have

8 known because -- I would have known because that's my

9 computer in my office.

10 Q So, as far as you know, only one copy was made,

11 and that was made by you?

12 A If you are referring to the mirror copy of the

13 hard disk?

14 Q Yes.

15 A Yes.

16 Q Was any copy made and given to Col. Delfin, do

17 you know?



20 A There would be no reason for me to give any copy

21 to Col. Delfin.

22 Q Was a copy of the hard disk given to the FBI

23 sometime in March?


25 THE COURT: I thought we had this.

1971

1 Go ahead, answer it again.

2 A I have no information. What I gave them was a

3 copy of the diskette. It's not the hard disk. It's not

4 everything in the hard disk.

5 Q And what is on the diskette?

6 A What was presented. I don't have it any more

7 here, that diskette.

8 Q Were you the one that prepared the diskette?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Where did you get the information to load it on

11 the diskette?

12 A On the copy on our computer.

13 Q Was it information that was taken from the hard

14 disk?

15 A Yes, a mirror copy of what was taken from the

16 hard disk.

17 Q Was it everything?

18 A No, it's not everything. It's just a floppy.

19 Will not be able to contain everything.

20 Q Now, the laptop is a portable computer, is that

21 correct?

22 A Yes, ma'am.

23 Q The timing mechanism, is that used in connection

24 with any independent battery just for the timing system?

25 A Is your question --

1972

1 Q The internal clock, is there a separate battery

2 that is connected that operates the internal clock in the

3 computer?


5 THE COURT: I think we've been through that, too.

6 Q If the computer is turned off, does the time

7 continue to run?

8 A Yes. With the internal button it will sustain

9 the internal clock.

10 Q An internal battery. So there is an internal

11 battery?

12 A I answered that already.

13 Q Is that internal battery removable?

14 A In some computers. I'm not talking about this

15 computer because I have no knowledge of the inside of this

16 computer, I didn't open it. In some computers it's

17 removable. In some it's soldered in, so it's not readily

18 removable.

19 Q And if it is removable, does that mess up the

20 time so that the wrong information can be -- so that the

21 wrong time can be attributed to the time that documents or

22 files are worked on?

23 A I presume it would reset the clock.

24 MS. BARRETT: I have no further questions.


1973

1 CROSS-EXAMINATION


3 Q Sir, to clarify a few matters, first off, when

4 you worked on the computer, what you say was January 9 into

5 January 10, the early morning hours, did you in any way

6 modify any of the informational files that were contained in

7 that computer?

8 A No, sir, no modification.

9 Q Did you in any way delete any information that

10 was involved -- withdrawn.

11 Did you in any way delete any information or

12 files within that computer?

13 A No deletion, was made, sir.

14 Q And if somebody says you did, would you say they

15 are wrong?

16 A I am sorry.

17 Q If somebody says you did, would you say they are

18 wrong?

19 A Did what, sir?

20 Q Deleted information from the computer.

21 A I would be wrong? I am sorry.

22 Q I will restate the question. If somebody says

23 that on January 9 into January 10 that you deleted

24 information from the computer, would that person be wrong?

25 A Deleted -- well, if you deleted something --

1974

1 Q I am asking you, did you delete something that

2 evening?

3 A Not that I remember, sir.

4 Q You are somebody who has been in the computer

5 field since 1978, is that right?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q You certainly were being careful with the

8 computer that day, were you not, sir?

9 A I didn't get the question.

10 Q You were being careful with the computer that

11 day, were you not, sir?

12 A Careful under normal circumstances, sir.

13 Q You certainly were not going to delete

14 information from the computer, would you?

15 A I have no reason to delete any information, sir.

16 Q And you had no intent to delete any information.

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And you had no purpose to delete any information.

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Did you delete information that night?


22 THE COURT: Ask and answered.

23 Q Sir, if I might, did you prepare a report for

24 your superiors at Camp Crame as to what you did on the

25 evening of January 9?

1975

1 A Just the notes I jotted down while browsing the

2 computer.

3 Q And that is that one page that you just referred

4 to?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q After January 9, 1995, did you ever see that

7 piece of paper again?

8 A Not that piece of paper again, sir.

9 Q On January 11, 1995, did you prepare any notes?

10 A No notes, sir. Just printed the contents.

11 Q Sir, prior to testifying here the last few days,

12 did you review the work or findings of any other computer

13 experts?

14 A I am sorry.

15 Q In this case.

16 A Did I review any work on --

17 Q Done by any computer expert in this case?

18 A On this particular computer?

19 Q With respect to this particular computer.

20 A No, sir.

21 Q In the year 1995, were you interviewed by anybody

22 from the Federal Bureau of Investigation with respect to

23 your work in January of 1995?

24 A Yes, sir.

25 Q Who was that? Do you recall?

1976

1 A I remember three of them. I am not sure, I think

2 Mr. Mike Garcia was there and two other guys.

3 Q Do you remember when this occurred?

4 A About a month after, I think.

5 Q Do you know where it occurred?

6 A Camp Crame.

7 Q Whose office did it occur in?

8 A Colonel Delfin's office.

9 Q Was he present?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q Incidentally, you did not know of the existence

12 of this computer prior to your phone call from Colonel

13 Delfin -- am I pronouncing his name correctly?

14 A Delfin, yes.

15 Q Delfin. You did not know of this computer prior

16 to his phone call to you on what you believed to be January

17 9, correct?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q You do not know who may have handled it within

20 the PNP prior to January 9?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q And you don't know who may or may not have made

23 entries into that computer prior to January 9?

24 A I would not have any knowledge, sir.

25 Q You had it for a short period of time from

1977

1 January 9 into the 10th, you believe, as to the date?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q You gave it back to the colonel and you got it

4 back, I think you said, a couple days later, right?

5 A A day later, sir.

6 Q Did you previously say it was two days later?

7 A That's the 10th, and then I got it again on the

8 11th.

9 Q Did you previously tell somebody while being

10 interviewed in this matter that you got it a couple days or

11 so later?

12 A I don't remember saying that, sir, a couple of

13 days.

14 Q Or two days or so later.

15 A No, I don't remember making any statement.

16 Q You didn't create any official report in this

17 case, correct?

18 A Sir, we don't create the reports, we get the data

19 and then we pass it over, and there is another group that

20 makes the reports on the contents.

21 Q Do you know if a report was created with respect

22 to your findings by Colonel Delfin?

23 A I didn't get the question, sir.

24 Q Do you know if the colonel created a report with

25 respect to your findings?

1978

1 A I am sure he did, but I cannot be sure.

2 Q You are sure you can't be sure?

3 A Well, that is normal procedure. I am just

4 assuming he did his work.

5 Q Have you seen one in this case?

6 A No, sir.

7 Q In the year 1996, prior to coming to the United

8 States to testify in this case, were you interviewed in the

9 Philippines by any member of the Federal Bureau of

10 Investigation?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Who was that?

13 A I think it was Frank.

14 Q Are you not sure? Not that you are required to

15 be.

16 A I am not very good at names, sir. Faces, then I

17 forget the name.

18 Q When do you think this occurred?

19 A About March of this year.

20 Q Is that the time that you turned over that

21 diskette that you signed?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q That would be March 21, 1996?

24 A Yes, sir, that's the date on the diskette.

25 Q That occurred in your offices at Camp Crame?

1979

1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q Or was it in the colonel's office again?

3 A I made the copy in my computer in my office, and

4 then I turned it over to them in Colonel Delfin's office.

5 Q Is that the only time in the year 1996 that you

6 had an opportunity to be interviewed by somebody from the

7 FBI in the Philippines?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q It happened what, that's four months or so ago,

10 correct?

11 A March, yes.

12 Q How long were you in the agent's company?

13 A With the Philippine National Police?

14 Q That day in March 1996.

15 A How long was I that day?

16 Q Yes.

17 A I remember that was the morning --

18 Q It is my question, I am sure, that is confusing.

19 I withdraw it.

20 On that day in March of 1996 that you made a copy

21 of the diskette and you took the copy in to Colonel Delfin's

22 office -- do you remember that?

23 A Yes, sir.

24 Q There was an FBI agent there.

25 A A couple of them.

1980

1 Q And you believe one of them may be Agent

2 Pellegrino?

3 A I think so, sir.

4 Q But you are not so sure because you are not that

5 good at names and faces?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q How long were you in the office of Colonel Delfin

8 when that diskette was turned over?

9 A Maybe an hour.

10 Q Were you interviewed at that time, if you recall?

11 If you don't recall -- questions like that always have "if

12 you recall" on the end of it.

13 A Yes, they asked me about the diskette.

14 Q Then there came a time when you learned you would

15 be testifying in this matter in the United States.

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q When did you first learn that?

18 A Around the same time, I think.

19 Q Who informed you of that? Colonel Delfin again?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q He is with the Intelligence Command?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And he is your immediate superior?

24 A Yes, sir.

25 Q Is your office right next door to his?

1981

1 A No, sir, his is in the second floor, adjacent

2 building. Mine is in the lower level.

3 Q By the way, you keep -- I shouldn't say keep. I

4 withdraw that.

5 You have referred previously to your director. I

6 don't know that he has been identified. Who is your

7 director?

8 A Colonel Garcia, sir.

9 Q What is his first name?

10 A I just know him as a Colonel Garcia.

11 Q That may be his first name.

12 A No, sir, that's a family name.

13 Q You learned in March or so of '96 that you are

14 coming here and then you have a conversation, about two

15 weeks before you get here, with Colonel Delfin, is that

16 right?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Prior to March of 1996, in the conversation you

19 had with Colonel Delfin two weeks before you leave for the

20 United States, do you have any conversations at all with

21 anybody with respect to what you did back in January of

22 1995?

23 A Not that I remember, sir. It is just travel

24 preparations, that's all.

25 Q Would it be fair for me to say, and correct me if

1982

1 I am wrong, based on what you have previously testified to,

2 that you and your staff in the PNP do most of the computer

3 programming and/or printing or computer work for the PNP

4 Intelligence Command?

5 A Not all the computer work, some of the computer

6 work. Not everything. There are other regular office

7 computers. Computing work are done by secretaries.

8 Q Are there other --

9 THE COURT: Make it programming. Do you do all

10 the programming for the Intelligence Command?

11 THE WITNESS: Not even all the programming, your

12 Honor. Application programs like data bases, accounting

13 programs. Sometimes they just buy kind of softwares.

14 THE COURT: But other types of programs intended

15 solely for the -- you know, not commercial but intended

16 solely for the PNP Intelligence Command, you do it, right?


18 THE COURT: And if there is any analysis of a

19 computer to be done around the Intelligence Command, are you

20 the guy that gets the job?

21 THE WITNESS: That is the function of our group,

22 sir.

23 Q The point I am trying to get at also, and the

24 judge helped us get there, is, you work specifically, do

25 that work that you have just described specifically only for

1983

1 the Intelligence Command?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q There are any number of other commands within the

4 PNP?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q Are there like-type people working for those

7 commands doing similar work that you are doing?

8 A I have no information about that, sir.

9 Q There is a computer unit in the PNP, is there

10 not?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q Is that located at Camp Crame?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q That is a sophisticated operation, is it not?

15 A I don't have any idea, sir.

16 Q You don't have access to it?

17 A I don't have access.

18 Q It is basically off limits to civilians, is it

19 not?

20 A Not really, sir. I am not sure. I would be

21 guessing but I have no reason to go there.

22 Q In the almost ten years since you have been with

23 the PNP, you have never been to the computer center of the

24 PNP, have you?

25 A Maybe a couple of times, but not to really stay

1984

1 long, not even to enter and browse around.

2 Q Sir, two weeks before you arrive here you sit

3 down with the colonel and you have some conversation with

4 him, is that right?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q That is approximately what date, if you remember?

7 A Around May, middle of May, sir, because I was

8 originally scheduled to arrive here June 9. So that is

9 about two weeks before June 9.

10 Q So sometime in May, toward the end of May, middle

11 of May, is that what you are saying?

12 A Sometime in May.

13 Q You don't have a specific recollection?

14 A No specific recollection, sir.

15 Q This is the first time you have testified in the

16 United States?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Have you testified in any trials in the

19 Philippines?

20 A Only once, sir.

21 Q When you sat down with the colonel sometime in

22 May, or maybe toward the end of May, you determined or he

23 suggested that you work out this time line, is that a fair

24 statement?

25 A No, sir, he did not suggest -- actually, it was

1985

1 my own volition. I wanted to refresh my memory because this

2 event happened a long time ago and I am not also very good

3 at dates, obviously with faces also. I have to refresh my

4 memory, so actually I called the colonel and I requested the

5 meeting.

6 Q And you said that you needed his help to help

7 refresh your recollection?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q It was your idea to have him help you refresh

10 your recollection?


12 Q And the first thing you ascertained, I would

13 assume, is when this computer was allegedly seized, is that

14 right?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q Did you know that of your own volition --

17 withdrawn.

18 Did you ever know prior to that meeting with

19 Colonel Delfin when the computer in fact was seized?

20 A I have an idea, sir, but as I said, I am not sure

21 about the date, the exact date. I could be off one a day or

22 two days. That is why I wanted to be sure.

23 Q If you are off a day or two, that could change

24 the whole equation did here, could it not?


1986

1 THE COURT: Are you sure now the day is correct?


3 Q And that date was supplied to you by the colonel,

4 wasn't it?

5 A No. The date of the arrest that is the start of

6 the time line?

7 Q Yes.

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q You had no idea when this computer was seized at

10 any time until you spoke with the colonel approximately two

11 weeks after you left the United States.

12 A No, sir. Beforehand I did, but I didn't really

13 register much because I have no idea I would be presented as

14 a witness, and a year later I was asked, so I had to ask and

15 just confirm. I have the idea but I just wanted the

16 confirmation.

17 Q What you are saying is that up until March or

18 more than a year, almost 14 months after you were asked to

19 do this task you had no particular reason to even recollect

20 these events once you did your task for the Intelligence

21 Command.

22 A No, sir, it's just work for me.

23 Q It was work, it was like any other day at work,

24 correct?

25 A Yes, sir.

1987

1 Q You created no reports?

2 A I am sorry.

3 Q You created no official report?

4 A No official report.

5 Q And then 14 months later is when you first

6 learned that you may be asked to recall what happened back

7 in January of 1996 -- '95, excuse me.

8 I deleted the 6 and made it a 5.

9 A I am sorry. I lost the question.

10 MR. GREENFIELD: Could we have it read back?

11 THE COURT: Sure.

12 (Record read)

13 A When I learned that I was to be presented as a

14 witness, yes.

15 Q You may be presented as a witness is what you

16 first learned, is that right?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And then you find out in May of this year that

19 you most probably are coming to the United States, and that

20 is when you first sit down with the colonel and you refresh

21 your recollection as to what occurred?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q Your salary is paid by the PNP, is that correct?


25 Q And you are the, if I might give you a title --

1988

1 if it is the wrong title, please change it. You are the

2 chairperson or the boss of that computer unit of the PNP?

3 A It is really not a big group, sir, a group of two

4 people and myself.

5 Q But you are in charge?

6 A I am in charge, sir.

7 Q It is not a civil service position within the

8 PNP, it is an employee situation, is that not right?

9 A No, sir. You mean civil service?

10 Q Yes.

11 A Like an official designation?

12 Q Correct.

13 A My designation is just a consultant.

14 Q So you are not within the civil service system of

15 the PNP?

16 A No, sir.

17 Q You are not a police officer with the PNP?

18 A I am not a police officer, sir.

19 Q And if the PNP for whatever reason decided that

20 they didn't want you to work tomorrow, they could fire you

21 tomorrow, isn't that right?

22 A Right now I am just on call. I don't work for

23 them regularly any more.

24 Q But you did back then.

25 A Even during the time of the -- when I first got

1989

1 the computer I was just on call back then and not on a

2 regular basis. I don't report on a regular basis any more.


4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1990

1 THE COURT: Do you want to take a break now?

2 MR. GREENFIELD: I think that would be helpful.

3 THE COURT: OK, ladies and gentlemen, step down.

4 (Jury excused)


6 THE COURT: Do you expect to be much longer?

7 MR. GREENFIELD: Yes, your Honor.

8 THE COURT: The rest of the afternoon?

9 MR. GREENFIELD: Maybe just short of it. I am

10 not really sure.

11 THE COURT: Do you have somebody here?

12 MR. SNELL: We do have somebody, just in case.

13 MS. BARRETT: May we know who it is?

14 (Recess)

15 (Jury present)

16 (Witness resumed)


18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1991


2 Q Sir, when Colonel Delfin came to your office on

3 the evening of January 9, you believe, did he bring anything

4 other than the items that you identified on direct

5 examination?

6 A No, sir.

7 Q You talked about using some software on the

8 evening of January 9. Do you recall, did you have that

9 software or was that given to you by the colonel?

10 A No, sir.

11 Q No being you didn't have your own software?

12 A No, I have a home computer. I have copies of

13 that software in my home computer.

14 Q And your home computer doesn't have a printer?

15 A It does have a printer. It is an ordinary dot

16 matrix printer.

17 Q Did you print out through your own printer that

18 night that which you viewed?

19 A No, sir, I did no printing.

20 Q Sir, how many directories, if that's the right

21 word, and correct me if I am wrong -- how many directories

22 are there in this particular computer?

23 A I do not have an exact count, sir, but there is a

24 lot.

25 Q To your recollection, if you recall, did you view

1992

1 all the different directories that evening?

2 A Yes, sir, I had to be thorough. I had to look at

3 everything.

4 Q To the best of your recollection, how many

5 different directories are on that computer that evening when

6 you first get it from the colonel?

7 A I do not have an exact count, sir. I would be

8 guessing if I give you an answer.

9 Q Your best estimate.

10 A Anywhere from 50 to 100 maybe.

11 Q And each directory has a certain number of files

12 in it, is that correct?


14 Q Assume the number is 50, 50 directories. Do you

15 have a recollection as you sit on the stand how many

16 different files were in each of the 50 directories?

17 A Each directory would contain a different number

18 of files. It will not be evenly distributed among the

19 directories. It will be, some directories would contain

20 maybe less than 10 files, other directories would contain

21 more than 10 files, maybe 10 files.

22 Q I believe you testified the other day that you

23 looked at all the files in this computer that evening.

24 A Yes, as much as I can remember, I did try to be

25 thorough to look into everything.

1993

1 Q Would it be fair to say, and correct me if I am

2 wrong, I think you said earlier that there were thousands of

3 files in this computer.

4 A A figure of speech, sir, meaning there is plenty,

5 or there is hundreds or thousands.

6 Q Hundreds of thousands?

7 A No, no, hundreds, maybe thousands. I say

8 thousands just to describe that there is a lot of thm.

9 Q What is your best recollection as to the number

10 of files you accessed and browsed, if those are computer

11 terms, on that evening in January in your home in 1995?

12 A Fifty directories, maybe another number each of

13 15 files each, maybe 20. Maybe about close to a thousand,

14 but this I can't be sure.

15 Q It could be more, could be less?

16 A Could be.

17 Q Could be a lot more in fact?

18 A Could be.

19 Q Sir, would it be fair to say that each one of

20 those files is at least one page long?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q You have no idea what you are looking for other

23 than you have been asked to look into a computer you know

24 nothing about.

25 A Sir, I am looking for information, so when I

1994

1 browse into the computer I would definitely skip the

2 programs which I can clearly identify programs, program

3 files. So I will skip maybe immediately 30 percent of them.

4 Some files are obviously not -- do not contain information

5 and I just go, pass by them.

6 Q But each time you decide to look into a file, you

7 have to call that file up.


9 Q And some of those files contain a number of

10 pages.

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And this whole process of checking all the 50 or

13 so, to your recollection, directories, and the average of 15

14 to 20 files less the percentage you just applied, took you

15 five hours at the most, is that a fair statement?

16 A About five hours, sir. That is my estimate.

17 Q And at that time you did not make printed copies

18 of any of the matter which you saw on the screen of the

19 laptop.

20 A No printed copies, sir.

21 Q And the notes that you made consisted of no more,

22 as far as you can recall, than one page of paper.


24 Q And on that page you basically noted what you

25 recall would be the files of interest to you?

1995

1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q Or maybe the files that would be of interest to

3 somebody at the PNP.

4 A I am not --

5 Q You were creating this list and doing this

6 function not for your own enjoyment, you were doing this as

7 an order, if that's the right word, from your superior at

8 the PNP.

9 A Yes, sir, I look for files, I jot down anything

10 that may contain information, and if there are -- like

11 address and telephone numbers, I jot it down, too.

12 Q When you saw a card, did you draw a picture of

13 the card and put that information on it?

14 A No, sir, because I know that in the morning I can

15 just go to the office and print it. No need to go into that

16 kind of detail that evening.

17 Q So you didn't spend very much time looking at

18 like the different cards or photographs, you just wrote a

19 number down when you saw a photograph or card -- the file?

20 A The file name, sir. I marked the file names,

21 important files and deleted files.

22 Q And when you wrote that file name down, that's

23 what your interest was, not that it was on the screen,

24 merely that it was a photograph or a card or a graphic or a

25 text, and you wrote down the file number.

1996

1 A Yes, sir. As I see the files and I think it is

2 important, I write them down.

3 Q And you very quickly browse through this

4 information.

5 A Some of them, I dwelled more time on them

6 depending on the content.

7 Q And that is the text, I would assume.

8 A Some text, some pictures.

9 Q Sir, the next day you give the computer with

10 whatever information you have as to, quote unquote, the

11 locations of certain filings over to the PNP Intelligence

12 Command.

13 A To Colonel Delfin, sir.

14 Q He represents, as far as you are concerned, the

15 PNP Intelligence Command.

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q He has that computer in his possession, as far as

18 you know, for anywhere from a day to a day and a half.

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q What happens to that computer as to its content

21 is obviously unknown to you.

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q But you get it back a couple of days later or 36

24 hours or so later.

25 A Yes, sir.

1997

1 Q And then you run the print mode and you do the

2 copy mode and you do what you do for another two weeks with

3 this computer.

4 A No, not with that computer, sir.

5 Q With the mirror image of the computer?

6 A A copy of the contents of that computer.

7 Q Incidentally, with respect to the clock, this is

8 a DOS system, am I correct, that we are dealing with here?

9 A The computer has a DOS operating system and

10 Windows operating system.

11 Q If somebody were inclined to do this -- you were

12 asked certain questions previously by another lawyer, but as

13 to time and date, if somebody wanted to they could call up

14 the time on the DOS system and reset that time to any date

15 or time they want, isn't that right?

16 A Change the system time?

17 Q Yes.

18 A Like an ordinary watch, it can be set, sir.

19 Q And you reset it to this new time, correct, if

20 you want to reset it to the new time? You can set it to any

21 time and date that you want on that watch?

22 A It can be done, sir.

23 Q And then you can call up any application that is

24 within the computer and apply that changed time to that new

25 application and save that date and time?

1998

1 A If you create the document, yes, it will have

2 that time.

3 Q And after you do that, you can just tell the

4 computer go right back to the present time, couldn't you?

5 A Yes, you can set it again.

6 Q And there is no way that anyone can ascertain

7 that that occurred.

8 A Maybe if we go into the internals of the program

9 you might find something, but I am not familiar with that

10 detail, sir.

11 Q When you were in your home on, you believe to be

12 January 9 to the early morning hours of the 10th, and you

13 have this computer that you have identified as, I think 301,

14 is anybody else present besides yourself?

15 A Just my wife, who was sleeping.

16 Q We don't want to get her in here. I meant

17 anybody from the PNP.

18 A No, no, sir.

19 Q You had exclusive possession in that period of

20 time?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q I have asked you about the FBI. In the year

23 1995, after you had the meeting with the FBI did you have

24 any meetings at all with members of the PNP with respect to

25 what occurred?

1999

1 A No, sir.

2 Q Is the same true for 1996, other than the little

3 meeting you talked about with the colonel two weeks before

4 you leave for the United States?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q This mirror image that you talked about that was

7 created by yourself on, you believe to be September 11, is

8 that called a backup system?

9 A It could be considered a backup.

10 Q When you had this computer on January 9 or so,

11 were you requested or ordered to make a backup system before

12 you did anything with the computer?

13 A No, sir.

14 Q You identified some graphics in court yesterday

15 in that exhibit, I think it is 355. Do you remember that?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q Do you recall what software or what program or

18 what application was used to produce those graphics?

19 A I saw a couple of graphic application programs,

20 Promagic something, and another one.

21 Q Do you recall the other names besides -- what did

22 you say, something magic?

23 A The name of the program, if I recall, is

24 something like Promagic.

25 Q Promagic, and anything else? Any other programs

2000

1 that can create these graphics?

2 A Photostyler or something.

3 Q Photo Silence?

4 A Photostyler. I am not sure about the exact names

5 of the program.

6 Q What are the different means or ways in which a

7 user can get a graphic into the computer?

8 A Scanning would be one of them.

9 Q Is that the most common way?

10 A It's a common way, yes.

11 Q Any other way?

12 A There are digital cameras now that don't have

13 films, and you can just click and direct it to the computer.

14 That's another way.

15 Q Did you ascertain from Colonel Delfin or anybody

16 else in Intelligence Command if a scanner was recovered at

17 the search site?


19 THE COURT: The form is bad.

20 Did you see any scanner that was produced to you

21 by the colonel and said I found this with it or somebody

22 found it with it?

23 THE WITNESS: I did not see any scanner, your

24 Honor, but there is a scanner program in the computer, a

25 scanner software.

2001

1 Q Standard software?

2 THE COURT: A scanner software.

3 A Scanner software.

4 Q I am sorry.

5 A So this goes in under the scanner hardware. The

6 scanner goes into the computer.

7 Q Without the software you --

8 A You need the software and the hardware to make it

9 work.

10 Q You need a scanner?

11 A Yes, a scanner hardware and a scanner software.

12 The scanner software is there.

13 Q When is the last time you had any access to the

14 computer itself?

15 A January 11, sir.

16 Q When is the last time you had any access to

17 review of the printout of the computer itself that occurred,

18 I believe you say, on January 11 of '95?

19 A The printout, sir?

20 Q Yes.

21 A Here, sir.

22 Q Excuse me.

23 A You mean when was the last time I saw the

24 printouts?

25 Q The printouts or the directory.

2002

1 A Of the computer?

2 Q Yes.

3 A There is a copy of the computer at the office of

4 Attorney Snell.

5 Q My question to you, sir, is, when is the last

6 time you saw the product of -- withdrawn.

7 When is the last time you saw the work product

8 that you produced on January 11?

9 A January 11, sir.

10 Q And when you came here, did you review any

11 similar or what you believed to be similar files produced in

12 the United States?

13 A This, sir.

14 Q When you say this, you are talking about 355 in

15 evidence?

16 A Yes, 355, sir.

17 Q Other than 355 in evidence, did you review a copy

18 of a directory of files while in the United States?

19 A Yes, sir, at the office of Attorney Snell.

20 Q When was is that?

21 A Three days ago.

22 Q When you looked into that directory, were you

23 looking specifically for any entries that may have occurred

24 on January 9 or 10 of 1995?

25 A No, sir.

2003

1 Q Did you notice any?

2 A I know that the computer I am working on is not a

3 perfect copy of the original, so I didn't really try to look

4 for any major changes.

5 Q Did you look at the directory of entries as it

6 existed three days ago?

7 A What I saw in that computer was very similar to

8 the original, contents of the original.

9 Q When you say very similar, you certainly didn't

10 commit the computer directory to your mind and remember it

11 some 18 months later, did you?

12 A No, sir. This is just my recollection.

13 Q You are saying this is basically what you think

14 it was back then but you certainly can't be certain, can

15 you?

16 A The important files, sir, I am certain, because I

17 still remember that. The pictures I vividly remember. The

18 other files, as I describe it, I vividly remember.

19 Q And on January 11, how many pages do you print

20 out of all the files that you allegedly saw on January 9?

21 How many pages is it?

22 A We make duplicates -- this is just an estimate --

23 maybe 50 pages, plus the duplicates goes to a hundred.

24 Q And you found all those particular pages, you

25 say, within a few hours on January 9?

2004

1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q As you sit on the stand now, do you know who it

3 is who made the entries in that computer?

4 A No, sir.

5 Q Do you know when those entries actually were put

6 in?

7 A There are dates in the files, sir, so I would

8 imagine, I would suppose that those are the dates when they

9 are created.

10 Q I am sorry. You are finished?

11 Those are the posted dates, isn't that right?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q Those dates are very easily subject to

14 manipulation and change.

15 A I have to qualify "easy." Easy if you are just

16 changing one file, but if you have to change a hundred

17 files, it is not really that easy.

18 Q But if you are changing in one particular area it

19 is quite easy, isn't that right?

20 A You still have to do it one by one, sir, one file

21 after the other.

22 Q And you don't know from looking at 355 what the

23 person's purpose was in creating that file or those files.



2005

1 A I cannot assume the purpose, sir.

2 Q Sir, you said you didn't have a direct order to

3 testify here, is that right?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q But it was strongly suggested, wasn't it?

6 A No, sir.


8 THE COURT: Anything else?


10

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19

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25

2006

1 MR. SNELL: Very brief, your Honor.



4 BY MR. SNELL:

5 Q Mr. Canlas, you were asked about changing the

6 times and dates on the files on the computer. Do you recall

7 that?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q Let me ask you, sir, on the laptop computer that

10 you examined on January 9th, 1995, how big a job would it

11 have been to change the dates on all of the files that you

12 reviewed on there?

13 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Objection to the form, your

14 Honor.


16 A As I said earlier, sir, could be an enormous

17 task. You will have to go through each file individually,

18 one by one, and manually change. It will take maybe more

19 than a day, maybe.

20 Q A day?

21 A A day just changing the dates of all the files,

22 and there are thousands of them.

23 MR. SNELL: That's all, your Honor.

24 THE COURT: Anybody else?

25 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: I have cross.

2007


2 RECROSS-EXAMINATION


4 Q Now, sir, is it possible to change the dates and

5 times of which the files were created and the last date of

6 access without gaining access to these files?

7 A Can you clarify the question, sir?

8 Q Can you change the date of a specific file, the

9 date of its creation and its last date of access, can you

10 change it without gaining access to the file itself?

11 A You have to gain access to the file to change its

12 file stamp -- date and time stamp.


14 A You have to be able to access the file that you

15 want to change the time and the date.

16 Q Now, sir, I would like to show you a document.

17 THE COURT: Paul.

18 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Yes.

19 Q Sir, are you familiar with --

20 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Hold on one second.

21 Defendant Yousef Exhibits F1 and F2 are marked

22 for identification.

23 THE COURT: All right, give it to the witness.

24 Q Now, sir, are you familiar with assembly language

25 programming or machine language?

2008

1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q Would you take a look at the document in front of

3 you and read it to yourself.

4 (Pause)

5 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, before the witness is

6 asked any questions, can we take a look at what he's

7 examining?

8 THE COURT: Not yet, no.

9 Q Now, sir, having read the document in front of

10 you, is it possible using machine language programming to

11 change the date of creation of files or the last date of

12 access without gaining access to them?


14 THE COURT: It's the same question except that

15 you threw in a document in between.

16 Go ahead, answer it.

17 A You still have to gain access to the file if you

18 want to change the date.

19 THE COURT: Okay, Paul, give it over to the

20 government.

21 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Show it to the government?

22 THE COURT: Yes.

23 (Pause)

24 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, may I go up when Mr.

25 Snell looks at the document?

2009

1 THE COURT: Sure.

2 (Pause)


4 your Honor.

5 THE COURT: Okay.

6 All right, step down. Thank you very much.

7 (Witness excused)

8 THE COURT: Next witness.

9 MR. SNELL: Richard Macachor.

10 RICHARD MACACHOR,

11 called as a witness by the Government,


13 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Please be seated. State your

14 name and spell your last name for the record. Keep your

15 voice up and speak into the mike if you need to.

16 THE WITNESS: My name is Richard John Macachor.

17 That is spelled as M-A-C-A-C-H-O-R.


19 BY MR. SNELL:

20 Q Sir, how are you employed?

21 A I was employed by the Philippine National Police

22 as technical operative.

23 Q How long have you worked with the Philippine

24 National Police?

25 A I have been working for four years.

2010

1 Q And you say that your title is a technical

2 operative, is that right?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q Where within the Philippine National Police are

5 you assigned?

6 A I was assigned at Intelligence Command, special

7 investigation group, technical support branch during that

8 time.

9 Q You said during that time. Which time are you

10 referring to?

11 A During the time when I was about to -- I was

12 given instruction on -- to browse a laptop computer.

13 Q And could you tell us --

14 MR. KULCSAR: Could we just have the last answer

15 read back by the reporter?

16 THE COURT: Sure.

17 MR. KULCSAR: Thanks.

18 (Record read)

19 Q Could you tell us, sir, about when that was?

20 A I think it was in January. I'm not particular of

21 the date, but it was a weekend.

22 Q Was that in 1995?

23 A Yes, sir.

24 Q What was the first thing that happened in

25 connection with your receiving an assignment to browse a

2011

1 laptop computer?

2 A Sorry, sir?

3 Q What was the first thing that happened on this

4 particular occasion that you have in mind?

5 A Can you repeat the question, sir.

6 Q Sure.

7 Did there come a time when someone asked you to

8 take a look at a laptop computer?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q Who was that?

11 A It was my immediate superior, sir, Major Ferro.

12 Q Is that Ferro?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q And where were you when he asked you to take a

15 look at the computer?

16 A I was in the office of the special investigation

17 group, sir.

18 Q Where is that located?

19 A It is located at the compound of Camp Crame,

20 Quezon City, Philippines.

21 Q Now, you said, I think, that this was on a

22 weekend, is that right?

23 A Yes, sir.

24 Q Do you remember which day of the weekend,

25 Saturday or Sunday?

2012

1 A I think it was a Saturday.

2 Q And about what time of day was it?

3 A It was early evening, sir.

4 Q What did the computer that you were asked to look

5 at look like?

6 A Sir, it was a laptop computer, sir, a portable

7 computer.

8 Q And could you tell us with a little bit more

9 detail what you were asked to do.

10 A I was asked to initially browse anything on that

11 computer.

12 Q If you might, sir, I think if you position

13 yourself a little bit farther from the microphone, but not

14 too far, you might have better results.

15 What did you understand the instructions to mean

16 by browsing the contents of the computer?

17 A It was to my understanding that I will try to

18 look at files in the computer, sir, computer files.

19 Q Did you do that?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q Could you tell us, please, what you did. Just

22 take us through step by step, if you could.

23 A When my superior instructed me to conduct a

24 browse of the computer, I turn on the computer. Then the

25 system starts automatically. I think the MS DOS start, and

2013

1 then it goes directly to Windows.

2 Q Let me ask you, Mr. Macachor, if I could, do you

3 have any training in the field of computers?

4 A I have, sir, but it was in crash courses.

5 Q I'm sorry?

6 A It was just a seminar, sir.

7 Q Were you familiar with the MS DOS and Windows

8 programs that you just mentioned at the time that you saw

9 them come up on the computer that you were looking at?

10 A During that time, sir, I am still familiarizing

11 with the system.

12 Q What did you see after the Windows system came up

13 on the computer?

14 A There was this screen saver, sir, that looks like

15 an Arabic inscription.

16 Q Could you describe it in a little more detail?

17 A When you start a Window, sir, it will appear a

18 screen saver. Then there is a small -- a small icon or a

19 symbol in the lower part of it, and that is what we call in

20 the program manager which will -- which goes with the

21 program, sir.

22 Q Now, did you do anything when you saw the icon

23 for the program manager on the screen?

24 A Yes, sir. I start opening up the program

25 manager. Then I go through the program application icon,

2014

1 switches accessories group, sir.

2 Q What did you do then, after you saw the

3 accessories group icon?

4 A After the accessory group, sir, during the Window

5 write program, which during that time I am familiar of, so I

6 try to open the Windows write program to see if there are

7 files on it, sir.

8 Q Did you find any files?

9 A When I opened the directory, sir, I did not

10 observe any write file, so I go through the type of files

11 and search for text files, sir.

12 Q What kind of files did you search for?

13 A Pardon sir?

14 Q I'm sorry, I didn't hear. What type of file was

15 it that you were searching for?

16 A I'm trying to look for any write files or

17 documents are in the write program, but during that time I

18 did not observe any, anything, because what -- what's on it

19 I'm not familiar of, so I tried to browse to look for any

20 text files.

21 Q Did you find any text files?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q Will you tell us, please, what you mean by a text

24 file.

25 A Sir, a text file, sir, is anything that is made

2015

1 through word processing program, sir, any document or

2 letters, group of letters.

3 Q What sorts of text files did you find?

4 A What do you mean, sir?

5 Q Well, could you describe any of the text files

6 that you noticed on the computer at this time?

7 A Sir, there was this files that contains Arabic

8 text, Arabic languages. There is a file containing a threat

9 letter, sir.

10 MS. BARRETT: Objection, your Honor.

11 THE COURT: You saw things in Arabic, is that

12 what you're telling us?


14 THE COURT: And then you saw letters?

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. In another file, sir, I

16 saw a file containing a letter looks like --

17 THE COURT: It was a letter. Don't explain what

18 the letter was. But it was a letter, right?


20 THE COURT: Okay.

21 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, could I ask if the

22 witness might be given Government Exhibit 355, which is in

23 evidence.

24 THE COURT: Sure. Isn't it up there?

25 MR. SNELL: I don't think it's there anymore.

2016

1 THE DEPUTY CLERK: I have it right here.

2 Q Mr. Macachor, would you please take a look at

3 what's on page 1 of that Exhibit. Do you recognize that?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q What do you recognize it to be?

6 A It was this file that I -- one of this file that

7 I opened, sir.

8 Q And was that a file that you just referred to as

9 a letter?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q When did you first see this particular file?

12 A Can you -- pardon, sir?

13 Q Did you see this file on the occasion when you

14 first were looking in the files of the computer?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q Would you turn to the next page, page 2.

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Do you recognize that document?

19 A Yes, sir.


21 A This was the Arabic inscription that I -- that

22 one of the files that I opened, sir.

23 Q Was that on the computer as well?

24 A Yes, sir.

25 Q Now, you said that this is Arabic. Do you speak

2017

1 Arabic?

2 A No, sir. I think it is an Arabic inscription, I

3 believe, sir, Arabic inscription, it's more of Mideastern

4 inscription.

5 Q Let me ask you to turn to page 4 of Government

6 Exhibit 355 and look at pages 4 and 4A. Do you recognize

7 what's printed on those pages?

8 A Yes, I recognize.

9 Q When did you first see this material?

10 A It was during the time when I -- when I opened

11 the computer, sir.

12 Q And do you remember what kind of a file this

13 material was contained in?

14 A I could not remember the file name, sir, but it

15 is on -- but the extension is text. The file extension name

16 is described as TXD. That stands for text files.

17 Q Could you tell us, please, what you mean by file

18 extension. What's that term mean?

19 A File extension, sir, usually describes the type

20 of document or files which are made by the Windows which

21 indicate what type of word processing program, sir.

22 Q And how many characters are usually contained

23 within a file extension?


25 A Usually it --

2018

1 THE COURT: No, don't answer it.

2 Next question.

3 Q Would you take a look now, please, at page 7 of

4 the booklet. Do you recognize that, sir, on page 7?

5 A No, sir.

6 Q How about on page 8?

7 A No, sir, I don't recognize it.

8 Q About how long did you browse the files that you

9 were looking at on the computer that afternoon or evening,

10 whatever it was?

11 A Sir, I was in the room with the computer early --

12 in that early evening of Saturday. I think I finish at

13 early dawn of the following day. But I -- but I did not

14 consume entirely my time with that computer. I rest and

15 then go back to the computer.

16 Q Where were you when you were working with the

17 computer browsing the files?

18 A At the office of Maj. Ferro, sir.

19 Q And was there anyone else working with you during

20 that time?

21 A It was only me, sir, and with the permission of

22 Maj. Ferro.

23 Q Where was Maj. Ferro during this time?

24 A Sir, sometimes he goes in and out of his office.

25 Q After you completed your work browsing the files

2019

1 what did you do?

2 A Sir, I turn off the computer and leave the

3 responsibility to Maj. Ferro.

4 Q Did you have any conversation -- and please don't

5 tell us what was said, but did you have any conversation

6 with Mr. Ferro about what you had seen on the computer?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q Now, did there come a time later when you saw the

9 computer --

10 THE COURT: Wait a minute. This sounds like a

11 good break point.

12 All right, ladies and gentlemen, tomorrow morning

13 we'll pick up and talk to you some more about the computer.

14 Leave the stuff there. Have a good night.


16 THE COURT: How much longer are you going to be

17 with this guy?

18 MR. SNELL: I think about five minutes, your

19 Honor.

20 THE COURT: I don't know about the rest of you

21 folks. I'm having difficulty understanding him. Did anyone

22 consider the possibility that the jury might have difficulty

23 understanding him, too? I don't know. Tomorrow morning,

24 10:00.

25 (Adjourned to July 11, 1996 at 10:00 a.m.)

2021


8 July 11, 1996 10:00 a.m. 9 Before: 10 HON. KEVIN THOMAS DUFFY, 11 District Judge 12 APPEARANCES 13 MARY JO WHITE, 14 United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York 15 DIETRICH SNELL, MICHAEL GARCIA, 16 Assistant United States Attorney

17 ROY KULCSAR, Legal Advisor for Defendant Yousef 18 CLOVER BARRETT, 19 BERNARD UDELL, Attorney for Defendant Murad 20 DAVID GREENFIELD, 21 Attorney for Defendant Shah

22 ALSO PRESENT: Lillie Grant, Paralegal, U.S. Attorney's Office 23 INTERPRETERS: AZIA ISMAIL, GALAL EL-NAHAL, HASSAM MOAWAD 24

25

2022

1 (Trial resumed)


3 THE COURT: Do you have an interpreter for Mr.

4 Macachor?

5 MR. SNELL: Yes, your Honor. I just wanted to

6 call that to everyone's attention. Yesterday after court

7 the witness asked me if it would be acceptable to switch

8 over to an interpreter, and I said I would communicate that

9 request to the Court.

10 THE COURT: I thought I made it pretty clear at

11 the end of the day and that you understood.

12 MR. SNELL: Yes, your Honor. So we have Mr.

13 Masaoay again today, and he will be the interpreter.

14 THE COURT: Get the jury in first.


16 THE COURT: In my lifetime I have felt myself to

17 be a very lucky man. I'm lucky enough to have had a steady

18 job for the last 24 years or so, and I've been lucky enough

19 to do some traveling.

20 Now, when I traveled about, I was amazed to find

21 out how many people want to speak English. There's a lot of

22 reasons for it. Take, for example, a simple thing. Well,

23 there are certain things, like most of your computer manuals

24 now are written in English. There is an awful lot of TV in

25 English. You know, CNN is worldwide. And most of your

2023

1 better movies are in English. And for those who fly, I

2 don't know if you guys know this, but the universal language

3 in flying, among people who fly, is English. And the reason

4 for that is the airplanes are built here and all the

5 directions are in English. I'm not making that up. I swear

6 to God. So I will never forget the first time we ended up

7 going to Greece and I said to my wife -- I got this little

8 book on how to sound out words, and I said I intend to sound

9 out the words for you when we get there. And the first

10 thing we saw was a Jeep on the runway, and the Jeep had in

11 perfect English "Follow Me."

12 When people come to the United States, they speak

13 English when they can because it's something that they're

14 learning and it's good for them, and it's actually a

15 compliment to us that they try to do this. But to tell you

16 the truth, every now and then it makes life a little

17 difficult for all of us because we're not sure we

18 understand.

19 The gentleman who was on the stand yesterday was

20 such a person. I'm quite sure that he enjoyed practicing

21 English, and I think it's wonderful that he's doing so well,

22 but truthfully, I thought, since I was having difficulty and

23 admit I was having difficulty understanding him, that you

24 guys might be having the same kind of difficulty, so I

25 suggested in the strongest way possible that the government

2024

1 get an interpreter today and the testimony continue but this

2 time through an interpreter, so that's what's going to

3 happen. He is not here. There is no reason for me to

4 embarrass him, that's why.

5 Okay, now go get him.

6 What is the interpreter's name again?

7 MR. SNELL: Mr. Masaoay. Chris Masaoay.

8 RICHARD MACACHOR, resumed.

9 THE COURT: Mr. Masaoay, you remember you were

10 sworn to be an interpreter here. I understand you're going

11 to do it in the same language today.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.

13 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.

14 DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED

15 BY MR. SNELL:

16 Q Mr. Macachor, yesterday you were testifying about

17 an assignment you received to browse files on a laptop

18 computer, is that right?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Do you remember when it was that you first saw

21 that computer?

22 A It was in the month of January 1995, before the

23 Pope arrived.

24 Q And do you remember which day of the week it was

25 when you were first shown this computer?

2025

1 A Yes. That was on the weekend. I believe it was

2 on a Saturday and within a week the Pope was to arrive.

3 Q Now, when you looked at the files, or I believe

4 you said you browsed the files on the computer, did you

5 input any information into the computer?

6 A No, sir, I did not. I didn't put anything in

7 there.

8 Q And did you delete any information from any file

9 in the computer at that time?

10 A None, sir.

11 Q Now, yesterday you were also shown Government

12 Exhibit 355, which I believe now has been placed before you

13 again. Would you take a look at that, please, sir. And

14 please turn to the first page. When is the first time that

15 you ever saw what's printed there on that page?

16 A Is it this particular page, sir?

17 Q Yes, that's the one, the one with the number 1 in

18 the middle of the bottom of the page.

19 A I saw this the first time that I had browsed and

20 looked at the computer.

21 Q Turning now to the second page, which has the

22 numeral 2 in the middle of the bottom of the page, when did

23 you first see that?

24 A It was at the same time, that same time.

25 Q Will you turn to the next page, which has the

2026

1 numeral 3. Do you remember seeing that file on the same

2 occasion when you were browsing the files on the laptop?

3 A No, sir, I did not see this.

4 Q Sir, did you access any fax files on the computer

5 at that time?

6 A At that time, sir, I was not familiar with

7 accessing any fax files. Sir, I did not do anything at that

8 time.

9 Q Would you please now turn to the next page, page

10 4. Do you remember the first time you ever saw that?

11 A Yes, sir, I do.

12 Q When was that?

13 A That same time, sir, that Saturday.

14 Q Now, would you please turn to the page that's

15 marked 5 in the middle of the bottom of the page. And

16 referring to that page as well as the page following it

17 marked 5A, do you remember if you ever saw that material?

18 A Yes, I remember, sir.

19 Q And when did you first see it?

20 A The first time that I looked at that computer.

21 Q Now please turn to page 6. And the 6 is over in

22 the corner, the lower right-hand corner. Referring to that

23 page and 6A, the following page, and 6B, the page that

24 follows that, did you see what's printed on any of those

25 pages the first time that you looked at the computer?

2027

1 A I don't remember seeing this particular page. I

2 could not tell because of all this characters that are

3 printed here.

4 Q Which characters are you referring to? Could you

5 just identify them somehow or maybe hold up the page and

6 point them out to the jury.

7 A This plus signs, this circles, this additional

8 things over here.

9 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, can we have the last

10 answer read back?

11 THE INTERPRETER: He said "this additional things

12 over here."

13 MR. KULCSAR: Thank you.

14 Q Sir, just so we're all clear what you're

15 referring to, are you pointing out the lines of plus signs

16 and circles that appear at various points on the pages?

17 A Yes, sir, this plus signs.

18 Q Now would you please take a look at the page

19 that's marked 7 in the middle of the bottom of the page.

20 Where the word Bojinka appears at the top of the page, do

21 you see that?

22 A Yes, sir. I saw this the first time that I

23 handled those computers.

24 Q Those computers?

25 A That same computer that I handled that Saturday.

2028

1 Q Now, do you recall yesterday being asked to take

2 a look at page 7 and telling us that you did not remember

3 ever seeing what was on page 7?

4 MR. GREENFIELD: Objection, your Honor. That was

5 not what he said. He said he did not recognize it.

6 THE COURT: Did not recognize it. That's exactly

7 what he said. Rephrase your question.

8 Q Sir, do you remember yesterday being asked about

9 page 7 and saying that you did not recognize what was on

10 page 7?

11 A Yes, sir, I said that yesterday, but at that time

12 I was not looking at the correct page, and I apologize.

13 Q Which page were you looking at, sir, at that

14 time?

15 A This page, 6A, that I presumed was the page that

16 was following 6.

17 Q Now will you take a look at the next page in the

18 booklet, and that has the 8 in the middle of the bottom of

19 the page.

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q Did you see that material the first time that you

22 accessed the computer?

23 A I don't know, sir. I did not access this file.

24 Q Would you take a look now at the next page, page

25 9. Do you remember when you saw that for the first time?

2029

1 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Objection to the form, your

2 Honor.

3 THE COURT: Yes. It's bad.

4 Q Sir, do you recognize the material that's on page

5 9?

6 A I did not access this file, sir.

7 Q How about on page 10, would you take a look at

8 that, please.

9 A I did not access this file, sir.

10 Q Now would you take a look at the remaining pages

11 of the book. Just go through those and tell us whether you

12 recognize any of those files as files that you saw on that

13 night.

14 A I did not see this files that evening.

15 Q At the time you were browsing the computer, what

16 experience, if any, did you have in the retrieval of

17 graphics files on computers?

18 A I was not familiar with any workings of a

19 graphics file, and so that particular evening I did not

20 touch any graphics file.

21 Q Now, Mr. Macachor, did there come a time after

22 the occasion on which you first saw the computer when you

23 saw the computer again?

24 A Yes, there was a particular instance, sir.

25 Q Would you tell us, please, sir, when that was.

2030

1 A It was about one and a half weeks after that

2 first time that I had looked at the computer.

3 Q What were the circumstances surrounding your

4 seeing the computer for the second time? Could you tell us

5 what happened?

6 A I was asked to make a printout of the files that

7 I saw the first time that I handled the computer.

8 Q And who asked you to do that?

9 A It was my direct supervisor, Maj. Ferro.

10 Q What did you do after you received this set of

11 instructions from Maj. Ferro?

12 A Yes, I was going to try to reprint the files that

13 I had accessed the first time that I handled the computer.

14 At this time, sir, I realized that this printer that was

15 attached to this computer was not compatible with the

16 printer that we have at our offices, so what I did at that

17 time is I made a copy of the files that I was going to

18 access, and what I needed to do was to put a diskette in

19 there and copy this files that I needed to print. After I

20 had copied the files, I then transferred it into our

21 computer so that I can print this out of our own printer.

22 Q What did you do --

23 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, I apologize. It was a

24 long answer. Could we ask the reporter just to read it

25 back?

2031

1 THE COURT: Sure.

2 (Record read)

3 MR. KULCSAR: Thank you very much.

4 THE INTERPRETER: The witness would like to make

5 a clarification on a word that he used after the answer had

6 been read back, that this particular mode of printer was

7 already programmed or installed into the laptop computer,

8 and he does not mean that it doesn't have a printer of its

9 own.

10 MR. GREENFIELD: Could we clarify that he

11 corrected the English answer?

12 THE COURT: Yes.

13 Q Now, Mr. Macachor, at the time that you printed

14 out these files, did you make any additions or deletions to

15 or from the files that you were printing out?

16 A I did not do any deletions or additions, sir.

17 Q What did you do with the printouts that you made

18 on this occasion?

19 A I submitted it to my superior, sir.

20 Q Was that Maj. Ferro again?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q Where did you do this work?

23 A The same place, inside the offices of Maj. Ferro.

24 Q After you were finished with the work on this

25 occasion, what, if anything, did you do with the laptop

2032

1 computer?

2 A I did nothing more. I left the computer with

3 Maj. Ferro.

4 Q Now, sir, did there come a time when you were

5 approached by members of the FBI and United States law

6 enforcement about testifying in this trial?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q And has the United States Government paid for

9 your air fare and your accommodations while you're here for

10 this trial?

11 A Yes, sir, that is my understanding.

12 Q Is it also your understanding that the United

13 States Government is paying your salary with the Philippine

14 National Police while you're away from work because of the

15 trial?

16 A What I understand was we are going to be provided

17 with a subsistence allowance.

18 Q And does that also include a daily witness fee?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 MR. SNELL: I have no further questions, your

21 Honor.




25 A Good morning to you as well, sir.

2033

1 Q Now, sir, do you have any rank in the Filipino

2 National Police?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q Will you tell us what your rank is.

5 A I am a police officer one.

6 Q Now, sir, was it your testimony yesterday that

7 you worked in the technical operation division in the

8 Filipino National Police?

9 A What I told yesterday was that I am a technical

10 operative with the Intelligence Command of the Philippine

11 National Police.

12 Q And what does your duties consist of as a

13 technical operator, sir?

14 A As a technical operative, we are sometimes asked

15 to conduct technical surveillance of perhaps subjects or

16 things that we are assigned to. Sometimes when we are in

17 the office our job also entails encoding and editing some

18 transcripts or documents that may be turned over to us.

19 Q Does your job involve anything with computers,

20 any programming or any inspections or examinations of

21 computers?

22 A We work with computers, but I am not an expert in

23 the internal workings or programming of computers.

24 Q Does your work has anything to do with a

25 computer?

2034

1 A There are some.

2 Q Will you tell us what they are, sir.

3 A As I said, the scope of my job in terms of

4 computer is limited to sort of editing and encoding papers

5 or documents that may be turned over to us. As far as the

6 programming aspects of computers, I have no dealings with

7 that, sir.

8 Q Did you take any computer programming courses or

9 any courses in computer science, sir?

10 A No, sir, I didn't.

11 Q Now, prior to January of 1995, how much practical

12 experience did you have with computers?

13 A As I mentioned to you, in terms of editing and

14 encoding reports or documents that may be turned over to us,

15 I have two years worth of experience.

16 Q Now, sir, when you joined the Filipino National

17 Police, were you interviewed by any members of the Filipino

18 National Police before joining them regarding your

19 experience and academic background?


21 THE COURT: I don't know where it's going. We'll

22 try it for a while.

23 Go ahead and answer it.

24 A I was interviewed, but I was not asked anything

25 about my knowledge or my expertise in computers.

2035

1 Q Did you make any of your superiors aware of your

2 background, practical background or academic background, in

3 the computer?

4 A Sir, when I was employed at the PNP, that was at

5 that point that I learned how to access and how to use a

6 computer.

7 Q Now, sir, was it your testimony that you been

8 working with the Filipino National Police for four years?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q When did you join them, sir?

11 A When did I start working?

12 Q Yes, sir.

13 A I started working with the agency in 1990 as a

14 civilian, and at the time of December 1993 I became a part

15 of the police.

16 Q Now, sir, from 1993 to January of 1995 were you

17 ever given any computer by your superiors and asked to

18 browse or search its contents?

19 A Could you clarify what you're talking about. Are

20 we talking about evidences, are we talking about computers?

21 Q Yes, computers. Were you ever given any

22 computers by your superiors from 1993 to January of 1995 and

23 asked to examine its contents?

24 A Yes. The incident that happened in January where

25 I was given a laptop computer to browse into and to look

2036

1 into was the first instance that I was given a computer.

2 Q Now, sir, when you were given the computer in

3 January of 1995, what, if anything, beside the computer

4 itself, any of the computer accessories were you given?

5 A Sir, I am not familiar with any accessories as to

6 you're asking me. All I can tell you was when this was

7 given to me, my immediate attention was to find where the

8 power supply was so that, in turn, I can turn this on.

9 Q Now, sir, when you were given the computer, was

10 it inside a bag or anything?

11 A I don't remember anymore, sir.

12 Q And how did you turn the computer on, sir?

13 A Yes, this particular computer that they had asked

14 me to work on was already sitting on a table inside Maj.

15 Ferro's office at that time, so when they asked me to work

16 on this, I then went over and approached the computer. I

17 looked it over and see where the power supply was coming

18 from and what sort of power supply was needed for the

19 laptop. I made sure that this was -- we had the power that

20 was compatible for this laptop, and after I had done that, I

21 turned it on. After I turned it on, the computer itself

22 generated its own system and it went into its Window system.

23 Q Now, sir, when you first saw the computer, was it

24 already plugged on or did you plug it on yourself?

25 A As I have told you, sir, I went to first look at

2037

1 what sort of power supply it needed. After I have studied

2 what kind of power supply it needed, then I myself plugged

3 it on and turned it on.

4 Q Now, sir, how did you plug it on?

5 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Withdrawn.

6 Q Sir, how did you switch the computer on? Did you

7 use the keyboard or did you use anything else?

8 A Sir, I did not attach any keyboard to turn it on.

9 What I did was to turn the switch on, and at that point,

10 when the power was flowing into the computer, it started to

11 generate itself to its original program.

12 Q And where were these switches located on the

13 computer, sir?

14 A I don't exactly remember, but I'm thinking it may

15 be on the back of the computer.

16 Q Now, sir, what time did you receive the computer?

17 A It was in the early evening of Saturday.

18 Q I'm sorry, sir, would you repeat the answer.

19 A It was in the early evening of Saturday.

20 Q Do you remember approximately what time it was?

21 A Around 6 or 7, perhaps.

22 Q Now, sir, was it your testimony that when you

23 were given the computer, you were instructed to browse or

24 search through its contents? Am I correct, sir?

25 A Yes, sir.

2038

1 Q Now, sir, were you given any instructions

2 regarding the proper procedures of browsing the contents of

3 the computer without changing the contents of its files or

4 the integrity of its files?

5 A I wasn't given any instructions on how to do

6 this. My instruction was to browse and look at what files

7 were in there.

8 Q Now, sir, when you first switched on the

9 computer, what did you see on the screen?

10 A When I turned on the computer, initially what

11 came out, after the power had been turned on, the logo of

12 the Windows program came out. After the logo of the Windows

13 program came out, the screen saver then came out. At the

14 bottom of the screen saver you would find the program

15 manager, and the program manager would be represented by an

16 icon. The screen saver I would say had pictures in it. It

17 illustrated something that looked like Middle Eastern

18 handwriting. There was a drawing of a tree, there were also

19 some drawings of some birds, and there was a drawing of what

20 looked like a garden patch.

21 Q Now, sir, what did you first see on the screen?

22 Did you say a window logo or something?

23 A Yes, sir. As you turn on this computer, and I

24 imagine for any computers, if you turn it on, the Windows

25 logo would then come out of the screen, and immediately

2039

1 after that Windows logo had came out, then the screen saver

2 screen then appears.

3 Q Did you press anything to make the screen saver

4 come out of the window logo or just comes out by itself,

5 sir?

6 A The screen saver comes out without pressing any

7 key whatsoever.

8 Q Would you explain what the screen saver is, sir.

9 A Yes. This screen saver would be I guess what you

10 would call a desk top. I cannot fully explain to you the

11 mechanics of what a screen saver is.

12 Q Will you describe how it looks like on the screen

13 when you see it?

14 A Yes, sir. What I could tell you is the screen

15 saver would appear -- if at that point you didn't have any

16 programs or anything that you are running at that point,

17 then it would be the screen saver that would be facing.

18 Q Would you describe how it looks like on the

19 screen?

20 A As I have said to you, sir, in this particular

21 screen saver what I saw was a graphics of a tree, and with

22 this graphics of a tree, on top of it there were some birds

23 that were flying. On the lower portion of the screen I saw

24 some Middle Eastern or Arabic sort of script. There is

25 also, on the upper portion of this Arabic writing, a garden,

2040

1 something that looked like a garden with some bushes on it.

2 And then I would say that the background was white and this

3 images were in coloration.

4 Q Now, sir, would you describe the size of the

5 drawings, the size of the tree and the birds. Does that

6 cover half the screen or all the screen?

7 A This particular tree just covered a portion of

8 the screen, and then you can see the other graphics that

9 were on the screen.

10 Q Would you describe the size which is covered on

11 the screen, sir.

12 A Sir, what I can tell you is when you access this

13 screen saver, as I have described to you, what you can see

14 is all these images. There are those trees, the birds,

15 there is that garden bush sort of figure, there are those

16 writings there. And when you do access the screen, all of

17 this images come out.

18 As far as the dimensions, how big they are, I

19 cannot tell you that. I can tell you that the images, this

20 images that I told you comes out of the screen.

21 Q Could you tell us if it covered the whole screen

22 or covered a very small portion of the screen?



25 Q Now, sir, how many hours did you spend in search

2041

1 of the contents of the computer?

2 A Sir, when I worked in this computer, I had to do

3 this in intervals. So that I would start, and in between I

4 would take a break. And then, of course, working on this, I

5 would say that I finished at around 2:00 that following

6 morning. Again, I did not work continuously. There were

7 instances that I took a break. And after I was tired or I

8 couldn't handle it anymore, I would take a breather, and

9 then I would resume to work on the computer. And again, it

10 was until around 2:00 that following morning that I worked

11 with this computer.

12 Q Well, would you tell us approximately the time

13 that you spent working with the computer, how much it was?

14 A Sir, if you are asking me for an estimation, the

15 estimation that I can give you is perhaps I worked on that

16 computer for a period of about four to six hours.

17 Q Now, sir, incidentally, the screen of this

18 computer, is it black and white or is it a colored screen?

19 A This was a colored screen, sir.


21 you did not find any write files in the computer?

22 A Sir, my testimony is that I did not see any write

23 files when I looked at the computer, but I am not saying

24 that there are not any write files in the computer.

25 Q Well, during the four or six hours that you

2042

1 worked with the computer, did you search to see any write

2 files there?

3 A I didn't notice any.

4 Q Now, sir, would you explain what a write file is.

5 A Yes, sir. A write file would be a word

6 processing program, and when you have this word processing

7 program, it allows you to make documents that would come out

8 in alphanumeric form.

9 Q Now, sir, when you were on the screen saver, what

10 did you physically do to accomplish this, to search for

11 write files?

12 A Yes, sir, I would say that I accessed the program

13 manager. And when I went to the program manager, I opened

14 and ran it. The program manager allows you to access the

15 different applications. And when you access this

16 applications, there are this icons. And as you locate this

17 icons, you can see that there was the write program.

18 Q Now, sir, did you see any text files stored in

19 the computer?

20 A Not immediately, sir.

21 Q When did you first see them?

22 A Sir, I wasn't immediately able to locate text

23 files, and the way I came about this was to open the write

24 files. And upon opening the write files, I saw there were

25 no write files. I then went to the list of file names. And

2043

1 going into the location of the file names, I saw that there

2 were some write files, there were DOS files, and there were

3 some other files. Included in this were the text files.

4 And upon reaching that location, I then opened it.

5 I just want to make a correction that those are

6 not really file names. I should say that is being the type

7 of files.

8 Q So you saw some write files?

9 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, let the record

10 reflect again the witness corrected the English translation

11 as it was being given.

12 THE COURT: Yes. Go ahead.

13 Q Now, sir, there was a time also when you said you

14 saw some write files?

15 A Sir, as I have told you, when I went to locate

16 the write files, I did not look into this and I didn't

17 locate any write files.

18 Q How many text files did you see on that evening,

19 sir?

20 A About four or five text files.

21 Q Are these the only files which you saw on the

22 screen, or are these files which you only gained access to

23 them?

24 A This were the files that I accessed, which then I

25 was able to look into the screen.

2044

1 Q I'm sorry, sir, would you repeat the answer.

2 A This were the files that I looked at, and this

3 were the files that I accessed.

4 Q This are the only files which you looked at in

5 the screen?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q Now, sir, in order for you to gain access to the

8 text files, could you tell us which specific keys you

9 pressed on the computer?

10 A Yes. To go into the text files, sir, what I did

11 was to use the mouse and choose the location that said text

12 files. In doing this, I then double clicked the mouse, and

13 then appeared the files. And out of those text files, there

14 were those different files, and from there I looked into the

15 particular files that were in there, each of them, by using

16 the mouse.

17 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, I couldn't quite

18 understand the witness' previous answer concerning the

19 numbers of text files. If I may ask him the question again.

20 THE COURT: Sure.

21 Q Sir, will you tell us approximately what was the

22 number of text files which you saw in the computer during

23 the four or six hours which you spent on the computer that

24 evening?

25 A Sir, there were quite a number of text files, but

2045

1 I was able to locate only five or four of this text files.

2 The other text files, when you look into them, they were

3 written in unfamiliar character which I am unable to read.

4 Q Now, sir, did you write any notes for yourself

5 regarding the names of the files which you saw on that

6 evening?

7 A No, sir, I did not have any notes.

8 Q Did you write any notes regarding the contents of

9 the files which you saw on that evening?

10 A No, sir.

11 Q Did you prepare any report after the search which

12 you conducted in the computer regarding what you saw?

13 A A written report, sir, I will say no; a verbal

14 report, yes.

15 Q Did you write any report concerning your

16 activities on that evening to your superior?

17 A No, sir. I didn't do any of those.

18 Q Now, sir, how many times did you see the contents

19 of the four files which you say you saw them on the evening

20 of January 1995?

21 A Are you talking about how many times I saw it

22 that particular evening, that first evening, or are you

23 talking about the total number of times that I saw it?

24 Q The total number of times which you saw them on

25 different days.

2046

1 A Sir, just that evening, when I first was given

2 the computer, and then the second time was they had asked me

3 to print out what I had seen in the computer.


5 to Government Exhibit 355, page number 2.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could you repeat that for me,

7 please.

8 THE COURT: 255, page 2.

9 Q Now, sir, between January of 1995 until --

10 A Is this the right one?

11 Q Yes, sir, I believe it is. Page number 2.

12 THE COURT: Okay.

13 Q Now, sir, how many times between January of 1995

14 up to today or yesterday in which you saw this file or the

15 contents of this page?

16 A Are you talking about in terms of days that I saw

17 this or --

18 Q Yes, sir, on how many occasions?

19 A I first saw this when I first handled that

20 computer that evening. The second time that I saw this was

21 when I was asked to print out what I saw that first evening

22 that I handled the computer. The next time that I saw this

23 was when I met with the attorneys here in New York.

24 Q And when was the last time, sir? When did you

25 meet with the attorneys here?

2047

1 A Before I took the stand.

2 Q Now, sir, do you understand any of the writing on

3 this page?

4 A No, sir.


6 when you first saw it, you recognized it as to be Arabic

7 words?

8 A Yes, I testified to that, sir, and I was

9 assuming, because if you read the contents here, as you read

10 the words that are contained here, the words sound like they

11 are Arabic.

12 Q I'm sorry, sir? Would you repeat the word.

13 THE COURT: Do you want him to repeat it?

14 MR. KULCSAR: I think just have the reporter read

15 back the last part of his answer.

16 (Record read)

17 Q Now, sir, how many languages do you speak beside

18 English and your own language?

19 A Only two, sir.

20 Q Now, sir, how many languages are there in the

21 Philippine?

22 A There is one common national dialect and then

23 there are other dialects.

24 Q And do you know how many other dialects there are

25 in the Philippine?

2048

1 A I don't know exactly how many there are, but I

2 know some of those dialects.

3 Q Now, sir, do you know what the Arabic letters

4 look like?

5 A Sir, what kinds of Arabic letters are we talking

6 about? Are we talking about the language that you write the

7 letters that you write, or are we talking about the

8 transposition into the English letters?

9 Q No, sir, the Arabic letters itself which are used

10 in writing Arabic letters.

11 A I am not familiar with them.

12 Q Did anyone suggest to you that this letter could

13 be Arabic letters or you made the assumption yourself?

14 A This is my own assumption, sir, and this is what

15 I understand it to be.

16 Q Now, sir, you testified about using a mouse. Was

17 this mouse connected to the computer when you first saw it

18 or did you connect it yourself?

19 A What I remember is it was already attached to the

20 computer.

21 Q Now, sir, when you switched on the computer, was

22 the cord connected to the computer or did you connect it

23 yourself?

24 A Are you referring to the power supply?

25 Q Yes, sir.

2049

1 A As I have said to you, sir, I was the one that

2 attached the power supply.

3 Q And where was the power supply located when you

4 attached it to the computer?

5 A The power supply would be the plug that is in the

6 back of the computer, so what I did was I plugged it in.

7 Q And where was the cord located, sir?

8 A What I remembered was this power supply was also

9 there in the office of my superior, so I had checked the

10 power supply, whether there was what was needed, and then,

11 of course, I attach it to the computer and I plugged it in.

12 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, is this a right

13 time to have a break?

14 THE COURT: Yes, all right.


16 THE COURT: Mr. Yousef, how much longer do you

17 think you're going to be with this witness?

18 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: About five or ten minutes,

19 your Honor.

20 THE COURT: I don't know, I sit here and there is

21 a Christmas carol running through my head, It's Beginning to

22 Look a Lot Like Christmas. I figure we can sing it from now

23 until the next time we charge the jury. We'll have the same

24 result by Christmas.

25 (Recess)

2050

1 (Jury present)

2 THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Yousef.


4 Q Now, sir, on the evening of January 1995 when you

5 finished working on the computer, what did you do after

6 that?

7 A I left the computer with Major Ferro at his

8 office.

9 Q Was it switched on when you left it?

10 A No, sir, I had turned it off.

11 Q Did you see what Major Ferro did with the

12 computer when you left it there?

13 A No, sir, I didn't know what he did. Perhaps he

14 kept it for safekeeping.

15 MR. KULCSAR: May we have the last portion

16 stricken?

17 THE COURT: Yes, it is not really responsive.

18 Take it out, very last portion. Go ahead.

19 Q Now, sir, was it your testimony that there was a

20 second time about a week and a half later when you went to

21 see the computer?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q Did you go to Major Ferro's office which you were

24 there before, the first time?

25 A Sir, I work in his office, so I was there in his

2051

1 office and he brought the computer over to me.

2 Q Did he bring the computer over when you were

3 there or was the computer already there?

4 A I was there and the computer was there.

5 Q Was the computer switched on when you first saw

6 it?

7 A I don't remember, sir.

8 Q Now, sir, was it your testimony that you were

9 instructed to print out the files which you saw the first

10 time?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And that you were trying to use a printer which

13 was available there but was incompatible with the computer?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q Was the computer already attached to the computer

16 when it tried to print out the contents of the computer?

17 A I was the one that attached it to the cable when

18 I tried it.

19 Q And then you testified that you saved some of the

20 files on diskettes in order to store them on your own

21 computer, am I correct, sir?

22 A Yes, sir, so that I could print it out.

23 Q And then you printed out these files, am I

24 correct, sir?

25 A Yes, sir.

2052

1 Q How many pages did you print out?

2 A There were some files that contained or needed

3 more than one page.

4 Q What is the total number of pages which you

5 printed out, sir?

6 A I cannot remember how many pages they came out to

7 be.

8 Q Do you recall what files you printed out?

9 A If I see the computer, then I would be able to

10 determine the files that I had printed.

11 Q Did you print out any of the files which you saw

12 the first time, or you printed out files which you didn't

13 see the first time?

14 A The only files that I printed out were the files

15 that I was able to access the first time that evening when I

16 handled that computer.

17 Q Now, sir, what did you do with the computer after

18 you finished copying the files which you wanted into the

19 diskettes which you inserted into the computers, sir?

20 A I returned it to Major Ferro.

21 Q How long did you spend with the computer the

22 second time?

23 A Sir, it was just for a little while. I just went

24 to copy the files to the diskette. I then did the

25 printouts, I turned it over, and that was it, I left.

2053

1 Q Now, sir, what did you do with the diskettes

2 which you copied some files from the computer into them?

3 A I turned it over to Major Ferro.

4 Q Now, sir, in January of 1995, did you know a

5 person by the name of Colonel Delfin?

6 A Yes, sir, there was.

7 Q Do you know what was his position?

8 A As far as I know, he was the deputy director of

9 operations for the Intelligence Command.

10 Q Sir, in January of 1995, do you know what was the

11 relationship, the professional relationship between Colonel

12 Delfin and Major Ferro?

13 A I don't have any idea about that, sir.

14 Q Sir, do you know a person in the PNP tamed Taas?

15 A Is it Taas or Canlas?

16 Q Captain Taas.

17 A During that period of time I didn't know him.

18 Q When did you first know him, sir?

19 A When we arrived here in New York City.

20 Q Now, sir, do you know if Delfin is a superior of

21 Major Ferro?

22 A By rank I understand that Colonel Delfin is

23 higher in rank.


25 your Honor.

2054

1 THE COURT: Miss Barrett?

2 CROSS-EXAMINATION

3 BY MS. BARRETT:

4 Q Sir, how long have you had your position with the

5 PNP?

6 A I became a regular member of the PNP in December

7 of 1993.

8 Q How long have you been a technical operative?

9 A Since I was a civilian. That was the process of

10 my training until today.

11 Q When did you become a technical operative?

12 A I became an official member and had the official

13 title when I became a policeman.

14 Q Could you define for us again the duties --

15 define for us what a technical operative is.

16 A Yes, ma'am. Our basic duties as a technical

17 operative, the duties consist of conducting technical

18 surveillance, and this may entail using photographic

19 equipment, some videos. And then of course there were also

20 the communications aspect of this particular job

21 description. As well as, sometimes we serve as custodians

22 for communications equipment that may need to be taken care

23 of. Also, a part of the line work is working with

24 computers, and working with that my involvement is to encode

25 some reports that may be turned over by some units or

2055

1 officials, and then we encode it and then turn it over to

2 whoever higher authorities that we need to turn this over

3 to.

4 Q When you say encode reports, what do you mean?

5 A Encoding means that sometimes this officials or

6 certain personnels would have existing handwritten drafts of

7 the documents or papers that they hand over to us. In turn,

8 when I say encoding, that means entering the information

9 into the computer, and as you enter it into the computer,

10 then the corrections are made, whatever corrections needed

11 to be done or editing that needed to be done.

12 Q So encoding basically means that you type

13 documents into a computer?

14 A Yes, that is an aspect of it, typing it into the

15 computer.

16 Q In what other aspects of your job as a technical

17 operative do you use the computer, other than typing

18 documents?

19 A No other. That's about the scope of it.

20 Q When you type these documents into the computer,

21 do you use WordPerfect programs?

22 A What do you mean by WordPerfect?

23 Q Do you use word processing programs in the

24 computer?

25 A Yes, we do, and I can tell you that what I am

2056

1 familiar with is a program called Word Start.

2 Q What did you say? Word?

3 A Word Start.

4 Q Are you familiar with Windows?

5 A At that time when I did this, we were just

6 getting to get started to get familiar with Windows.

7 Q You stated that you started working with the PNP

8 in 1993, is that correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q What time did your job entail working with

11 computers? When did that begin?

12 A Yes, ma'am. During the time when I was a

13 civilian, this was the training ground or the background of

14 the work that I did, and eventually when I came to join the

15 organization this was the same line of work that I had done.

16 It was sort of my OJT.

17 Q What is OJT?

18 A On-the-job training.

19 Q So you started working with the computers prior

20 to 1993?

21 A Yes, ma'am, I have been working with some word

22 processing programs such as the Word Start.

23 Q That was from what period of time prior to your

24 entering the PNP?

25 A Could you clarify that for me.

2057

1 Q You stated that you were familiar with the

2 computers, that you were working with computers prior to

3 your entering the PNP. I would like to know, when did you

4 first begin to work with computers?

5 A Yes, ma'am. As I have said, my background with

6 working with the computers came to me as I was employed as a

7 civilian employee of the PNP, working in the same office,

8 doing the same job, until eventually I was given the

9 official title that I have. This, my job there when I was a

10 civilian consist of encoding reports, the same thing that I

11 was doing at that time when I handled that computer, and I

12 would say that that period probably covered around the years

13 of 1991 to 1992.

14 Q So from 1991 when you started working with

15 computers, you basically typed documents into the computer?

16 A Yes, ma'am.

17 Q You mentioned that at the time when Major Ferro

18 instructed you to work on the computer that was given to

19 you, that you were not very familiar with computers, is that

20 correct?

21 A What I meant, ma'am, was that at that time, at

22 that particular time when I came to work with Major Ferro,

23 that my knowledge of the Windows program was limited. I was

24 just initially learning how to use this.

25 Q These crash courses in computer that you took,

2058

1 when did you take them?

2 A Some of these and most of these were informal

3 sessions that was given to me by people that were working

4 within the units of the same office, and they taught me how

5 to use it, or sometimes I would approach and ask them how to

6 use it.

7 Q Yesterday you testified about doing a seminar, I

8 believe you stated, in a computer course. When did that

9 seminar occur?

10 A Ma'am, I cannot remember exactly when this

11 seminar had occurred, but what I can tell you is, the

12 program that we attended for this seminar was not a program

13 on Windows.

14 Q What was it on?

15 A It was an IBM system that is being used at the

16 PNP, and I would say that was called Display Right perhaps.

17 Q Display Right, is that what you said?

18 A Yes, ma'am.

19 Q Did that seminar include instruction on technical

20 operations of the computer?

21 A Basically, this was just a basic course on the

22 preparation of documents, the formatting of documents, how

23 you would enter the documents into the computer, certain

24 aspects of how it operates, the styles that would come out

25 as you prepared these documents. It was a basic procedure.

2059

1 Q Was this seminar taken in a school or some kind

2 of training program, or was it given by a company?

3 A It was within the command of the PNP, and I would

4 say, what I would consider this was an in-house and informal

5 sort of seminar that was asked by the PNP through the IC.

6 Q So in addition to on-the-job training from your

7 colleagues and this seminar, you have not really had any

8 formal training with respect to computers, is that correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Major Ferro is your immediate supervisor, is that

11 correct?

12 A Yes, ma'am.

13 Q How long has he been your immediate supervisor?

14 A It is for quite sometime. I would say around the

15 incident of January 1995, probably for about a year already.

16 Q When you testified, when you stated that at the

17 time that you received the computer that you were still

18 familiarizing yourself with it, what did you mean by that?

19 A What I meant by that was, I did not touch the

20 sections of this that I did not know anything about, that I

21 meant that I just look at the menu and see the things that I

22 was familiar with.

23 Q When Major Ferro asked you to browse through the

24 computer, did you tell him of your limited experience with

25 respect to computers?

2060

1 A No, I did not tell him, but I am sure that he is

2 aware of my capabilities on the basis that it is limited,

3 and I am sure that he knew that it was the basics that I did

4 know about.

5 Q Was he your supervisor at the time that you took

6 the seminar?

7 A Yes.

8 Q Was he responsible for you doing that seminar?

9 A It was under my own initiative that I attended

10 the seminar, so that I could learn more and add on to what I

11 know.

12 Q How long before this date that Major Ferro gave

13 you this computer, how long before that had you attended

14 this seminar?

15 A It was quite sometime. I cannot tell you

16 exactly.

17 Q When Major Ferro gave you this computer, did you

18 know where he got it from?

19 A I didn't have any idea.

20 Q Did you know at the time if the computer, if

21 Major Ferro's possession of the computer was as a result of

22 a specific situation?


24 THE COURT: Go ahead, answer it.

25 A At that period of time when he turned it over to

2061

1 me, I didn't know anything about this. All he did was to

2 turn it over to me and ask me to do the task that he had

3 asked me to do, which was to browse.


5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

2062

1 Q You said at that specific time. Did you later

2 learn that that computer was the result of a specific

3 situation?


5 THE COURT: Do you know what is coming out? Do

6 you really want to ask the question?

7 MS. BARRETT: I will withdraw it, your Honor, and

8 can we break for lunch now?

9 THE COURT: All right, ladies and gentlemen. It

10 is 12:30. How time flies.


12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

2063

1 AFTERNOON SESSION

2 2:00 p.m.


4 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, you want to hear

5 applications now?


7 MR. GREENFIELD: I have two. One is a prior

8 application made, but the witness on the stand is a perfect

9 example as to why I believe I should remake the application

10 again.

11 I think June 27th the government decided that the

12 proof of plan with respect to the purported conspiracy with

13 regard to the Pope was going to be coming into evidence, and

14 we had never received any notice of that prior to June 27th.

15 I made a motion for a dismissal of the indictment at that

16 time for any number of reasons which I don't have to go into

17 now, but again, with the witness on the stand, it's clear

18 that he was an anticipated government witness, according to

19 the notes, on October 1st, 1995, and he was somebody that

20 was interviewed in October of 1995 with respect to what

21 occurred back in January of '95, such as entering the

22 computer and browsing it for information, things of that

23 sort.

24 Right in the notes there are a couple of

25 indications that he was involved somehow not only with the

2064

1 computer, but involved in the investigation that may relate

2 to the Pope, and clearly the government knew that and we

3 didn't know that and the Court didn't know that. And when

4 this jury was selected, you didn't know that. And when you

5 voir dired the jury, certainly there would have been, at

6 least at my request, an issue for voir dire. Just as people

7 from the Jewish religion were questioned as to their being

8 fair as jurors here, certainly people who might have been

9 aware that the Pope might have been a target of these

10 defendants, according to the government, certain Catholics

11 might not have wished to sit, either, and there are seven to

12 my count that are in the box now.

13 Clearly it's something that the government knew

14 was going to come out during the course of this trial. Now,

15 when we sought it pretrial, they said no. Again the court

16 was precluded from knowing this information, and we were put

17 in an untenable position I think as a result of the

18 government's conduct, and as such, I move for dismissal of

19 the indictment.

20 THE COURT: It's same motion you made. It's the

21 same ruling.

22 MR. GREENFIELD: And also, after the dismissal,

23 mistrial, obviously, and then a cautionary instruction to

24 the jury with respect to --

25 THE COURT: A cautionary instruction, under the

2065

1 circumstances here, I think may cause more damage than

2 anything else. If you can get your co-counsel to agree on a

3 cautionary instruction, I'll give it to them.

4 MR. GREENFIELD: Well, I would have to think

5 about that, your Honor. I don't necessarily disagree with

6 the Court. I think there is nothing as limiting as

7 cautionary instructions, and also limiting instructions.

8 And I think the Court Supreme Court said that when they were

9 talking about Bruton. You just can't do it. That's really

10 why I would press my prior motion for a dismissal and/or a

11 mistrial. You may be right that there may not be any relief

12 to be granted, but certainly we should have known and we

13 shouldn't have been put in this untenable position.

14 And I think Mr. Kulcsar has an application now

15 with regard to photographs that we just got, and I may add

16 something to that, also.

17 MR. KULCSAR: I have a legal advisor-type

18 application, but I can wait until this witness is finished

19 if you would like to bring the jury out, your Honor.

20 THE COURT: Do it now. By the way, I don't know

21 anything about photographs. I don't have them. Oh, do I

22 have them? Oh, okay. I thought that was a magazine or

23 something.

24 MR. KULCSAR: Defense counsel and now,

25 apparently, the Court have been provided with a series of

2066

1 color photographs which the government represents to be

2 photographs taken inside room 603 at or about the time of

3 the search or the incidents that have been the subject of

4 testimony of countless Filipino witnesses.

5 These, by the way, are photographs that defense

6 counsel was aware of from the CBS video, which are different

7 and still not available, apparently, but these photographs

8 are among the photographs that defense counsel had requested

9 to be made available to them long before we had the pleasure

10 of gathering here some months ago and obviously would have

11 been the subject of examination of a number of witnesses

12 that have been already called by the government.

13 Defense counsel does request that the Court

14 preclude their introduction at this point because the

15 government, by allowing these photographs to come into

16 evidence now, for whatever the reason they've now just

17 become available to them, has deprived the defense of their

18 ability to cross-examine other witnesses concerning what

19 they saw or did not see during the time they were in the

20 apartment and have been allowed to cross-examine on a

21 limited basis. And certainly whatever the next witness who

22 will be the person introducing these photographs is able to

23 testify about might be significantly contradicted by

24 witnesses no longer available to the defense.

25 The other aspect, I think, your Honor, in all

2067

1 candor and forthrightness --

2 THE COURT: Let me find out about these first.

3 MR. KULCSAR: I'm relating to that as well, your

4 Honor.

5 The other problem, and I think your Honor

6 obviously is aware of it from the cross-examination and

7 requests that have been made during the trial by counsel,

8 it's not fair in the least to be in the position of defense

9 counsel trying a case where the genesis is in the

10 Philippines and Pakistan and requests are repeatedly made

11 for evidence in the way of photographs and other physical

12 evidence such as diskettes and printouts and things like

13 that, and notes, and being regularly confronted with the

14 response they're in the Philippines and we can't get them

15 and being confronted by selective evidence that is

16 available.

17 It seems clear that what's good for the goose

18 should be good for the gandir. If they can get it, then

19 everybody should have access to the same type of material,

20 and defense counsel and the defendants should not be

21 subjected to evidence such as this where, in the middle, or

22 hopefully in the middle, at least, of the trial we see for

23 the first time material that should have been the subject of

24 discovery long before the case started. Thank you.

25 THE COURT: I want to find out where these came

2068

1 from.

2 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, the government just

3 obtained the photographs that the Court has before it right

4 now. They arrived in two installments, the second of which

5 arrived this morning from Manila by DHL.

6 Pursuant to the Court's instructions and also

7 repeated requests by defense counsel, the government has

8 sought to follow up on the existence of additional

9 photographs, and we thought that, actually, our efforts

10 might be met with somewhat a different reaction than what

11 we're hearing now. I mean, we've actually obtained

12 photographs, and it seems that the selectivity is really in

13 the arguments of counsel. Previously we obtained a sketch

14 earlier in the trial that was turned over and, of course,

15 used by the defense in their case.

16 THE COURT: Some of these things, are you

17 intending to introduce them, that's the question?

18 MR. SNELL: Yes, your Honor, some of them we are,

19 not all.

20 THE COURT: Which ones are you intending to

21 introduce?

22 MR. SNELL: If I might have a moment, your Honor.

23 I think we've already had them premarked.

24 THE COURT: These are 361A, B, C, D and E. Those

25 are the ones that you intend to offer, correct?

2069

1 MR. SNELL: Those, your Honor, plus the other

2 pile that is on the bench.

3 THE COURT: Plus the other pile being 360A

4 through J.


6 THE COURT: The answer is don't bother. You're

7 not going to get them in.

8 Now, you want to say something?

9 MR. GREENFIELD: Only half of what I was about to

10 say or less.

11 THE COURT: Good.

12 MR. GREENFIELD: The other problem that we

13 have --

14 THE COURT: Look, this is not a ruling. If the

15 defense opens the door to these things, they'll have to come

16 in.

17 MR. GREENFIELD: I understand what the Court is

18 saying.

19 The other problem that we have with respect to

20 using the photographs that have just been produced as an

21 example of what I want to say is that clearly the Philippine

22 Government is an agent of the U.S. Government here in

23 production, and the same duty that the U.S. Government would

24 have in a prosecution here I believe should be placed on the

25 Philippine Government.

2070

1 And I know the Court asked the government earlier

2 on to find out just exactly what's over there and let us

3 know exactly what's coming, and we never got an answer to

4 that. And I think that there really are some substantial

5 due process questions that are starting to emerge that I

6 told the Court pretrial would emerge. And if we're having

7 selective production only "helpful" to the government which

8 is being produced by the Philippine authorities, then we're

9 not having a trial under the usual standards. And I'm not

10 saying the Court is conducting this, but it's somehow being

11 orchestrated by those people in the Philippines giving us

12 what they think the government needs to help them get to

13 where they want to go, and that's just not the right way to

14 try a case in a courtroom in the United States.

15 THE COURT: Okay, you made your record.

16 Get the witness.


18 CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUED

19 BY MS. BARRETT:

20 Q Mr. Macachor, this opportunity that was given by

21 your immediate supervisor, Maj. Ferro, to browse the laptop

22 computer, this happened one Saturday evening in January

23 1995?

24 A Yes. That was on an early evening on a Saturday

25 in the month of January, over the weekend.

2071

1 Q And that was the first time you saw the computer?

2 A Yes, this was the first time that I had seen this

3 computer.

4 Q Do you recollect that day to be a Saturday

5 because it was a day off for you?

6 A Yes. Usually on the weekend I am the person that

7 is put on standby so that there would be no other personnel

8 there in that office, and so when they needed someone to

9 look at that computer, it was me that was at the office at

10 that time.

11 Q Now, sir, do you recall being interviewed by Mr.

12 Snell here at Camp Crame prior to coming to the United

13 States and testifying?

14 A Yes, ma'am, I remember that.

15 Q And that interview occurred in October of 1995?

16 A That is possible, but I'm not sure, ma'am.

17 Q Well, how many times did you meet with Mr. Snell


19 A It was only one time, that time that he

20 interviewed with me.

21 Q Now, during that meeting, do you recall

22 discussing your activities with respect to the laptop

23 computer with Mr. Snell, and do you recall him asking you

24 when it was that you first saw the computer?

25 A Yes, I remember that he asked me how I was able

2072

1 to access the computer.

2 Q Sir, isn't it a fact that you told Mr. Snell that

3 the first time you saw the computer was on a Monday or a

4 Tuesday?

5 A No, that is not correct, ma'am. What I remember

6 telling him was that I happened to encounter this computer

7 the first time on a weekend, and that was a nonworking day,

8 and there was no people working in our office, so that I did

9 it. And I remember distinctly that Monday I was out in the

10 field.

11 MS. BARRETT: Your Honor, may I show the witness

12 a document?

13 THE COURT: Sure. 3520A?

14 MS. BARRETT: It's supposed to be 3520A, your

15 Honor, but I rewrote it.

16 THE COURT: Something you have other than this?

17 MS. BARRETT: It's the same document but it's

18 written differently, more legible.


20 Q Sir, would you look at the highlighted portion

21 and read it to yourself or have the interpreter read it to

22 you.

23 A Yes.

24 THE INTERPRETER: He wants me to read it to him.

25 (Interpreter complied)

2073

1 A What is your question?

2 Q After reading that, does that refresh your

3 recollection that you told Mr. Snell that the first time you

4 saw the computer was on a Monday or a Tuesday?

5 A This is wrong, ma'am. What I remember saying to

6 him was that this had happened on a weekend when there was

7 no work to be done in our office and there were no regular

8 work. And I also remember this because it was on that

9 weekend -- in fact, it was a week before the Pope was

10 scheduled to arrive in the Philippines, and I remember

11 distinctly that that Monday we were instructed to go out in

12 the field to do some related work.

13 Q When you were speaking to Mr. Snell, did you see

14 him taking notes?

15 A Yes.

16 Q And did you see him writing down what you were

17 saying?

18 A Perhaps.

19 Q Now, you said you were on standby the day that

20 you were called to look at the computer. When you are on

21 standby, are you at Camp Crame or are you at home?

22 A It does not exactly work that way, ma'am. When I

23 say on standby, that means that I can be called to work at

24 any time, and so when I am on standby, normally I would

25 spend my time there at Camp Crame, although I am not

2074

1 instructed to do that. And so it happens that that

2 particular day when I was on standby and they had asked me

3 to look at this computer, I had happened to be there. So

4 it's not exactly the way you had said it was.

5 Q And that was Saturday evening?

6 A Yes. I had gone there early in the Saturday

7 afternoon, so a few hours later that afternoon, as I was

8 about ready to go home, that's when they saw me and they had

9 asked me to do this work.

10 Q Sir, do you deny telling Mr. Snell that it was a

11 Monday or a Tuesday that you first saw the computer?

12 A Ma'am, I am not saying that I deny what Mr. --

13 what you're saying that Mr. Snell had written, but what I am

14 telling you is what I remember in my mind, that this was a

15 weekend and there was no work to be done that day and that

16 was the day that I remember this.

17 Q Now, you worked on the computer for I believe you

18 said four to six hours?

19 A An approximate time, yes.

20 Q And when you worked on the computer, you said you

21 looked at files?

22 A Yes. I was looking into the program, into the

23 write files program, to see if there were any files there.

24 Q Now, the write files programs, are they the same

25 as the text files programs?

2075

1 A No, they're not.

2 Q But aren't they both word processing programs?


4 Q Aren't they both word processing files?

5 A No, ma'am. What I can tell you is I looked at

6 the text files and just by the word that says text that I

7 think defines it as a file that would contain information

8 that would probably be in letter form. So, going into the

9 location that says text file, then I was able to look into

10 this.

11 Q A text file is a readable file, is that correct?

12 A That is correct.

13 Q And a write file, that is also a readable file,

14 is that correct?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Now, did you use a program manager to look into

17 the files?

18 A Yes, I used a program manager, the program

19 manager which has the central program, the center where you

20 can access the information that you want to get as an

21 initial stage of trying to get into it.

22 Q Now, you first looked at the directory, is that

23 correct?

24 A No. I went directly into the write.

25 Q Well, how did you select what files to look in?

2076

1 A Yes, you look into this computer and there would

2 be this icons that would tell you. And then when you access

3 this icons, you go into this group accessories program. And

4 when you access that particular accessories group, you can

5 locate that icon that says write program and you are able to

6 open this.

7 Q Well, sir, when you look in the computer first,

8 isn't it a fact that the first thing that you see when you

9 access the computer are the list of directories?

10 A What are you referring to when you say a

11 directory? You are you referring to the DOS or the Windows?

12 Q Well, files. Isn't it fair to say that files are

13 located in directories? You first have to go into the

14 directories, select a directory, and then you see what kind

15 of files are in there. And when you go into the files, the

16 list of files, you can then select a particular file that

17 you want to view. Isn't that how the information is

18 organized in the computer?

19 A Yes, that is correct, ma'am. When I go to open

20 the write file that is in the menu, that file is in the

21 Windows form. And then, as you to go that file, the Windows

22 open and other Windows open, and then it opens and it

23 directs you as to what files would be there. In this

24 particular location I was unable to find or locate any files

25 that made any sense to me.

2077

1 Q So, despite your limited education in computers,

2 you were able to access the computer, look at directories,

3 look at files in directories, a list of files in

4 directories, and then select files to view?



7 Q Did you select files to view after accessing the

8 directories and viewing the list of files and then select

9 files; did you do that?

10 A What I did was -- let me explain it to you this

11 way -- was that when I went to the write file, I was not

12 familiar with how this particular file works, and so what I

13 did was I went to the file types. And when you go to the

14 file types, you are able to locate where a section would say

15 text files. And this is the location that I went to. Going

16 into the location of the text files, as you go in there, you

17 would see the different kinds of information or documents

18 that would have been entered in this text file. After

19 having looked at what the contents of the text file were,

20 looking at it one by one, I looked into the documents that

21 would be contained in this particular section of the text

22 file.

23 Q Now, Maj. Ferro, he was with you at the time that

24 you were looking at these files?

25 A Not really. There were moments that he would

2078

1 come out of the office, but he would just look out and then

2 come back to his office for a period of time, and so I was

3 the one that was working with this.

4 Q And the computer was in Maj. Ferro's office?

5 A Yes, ma'am.

6 Q And you said you worked until about 2 in the

7 morning?

8 A Yes, ma'am. I left the office at around that

9 time.

10 Q Now, you didn't print materials from the computer

11 at that time, was that your testimony?

12 A That first time, no, I didn't do anything.


14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

2079

1 Q And you saw the computer approximately how long

2 after, the first time you saw the computer?

3 A It was about one and a half weeks after I had

4 initially seen this computer.

5 Q Do you remember if this was before the Pope left?

6 A The Pope had already departed by that time.

7 Q Do you know what date the Pope departed?

8 A I am not exactly sure. I think it fell on a

9 Monday, a Sunday or a Monday.

10 Q When you went to see the computer a second time,

11 was that again at Major Ferro's office?


13 Q Were you asked by Major Ferro to report to his

14 office to work on the computer again?

15 A No, ma'am, I was already in that office. I am

16 stationed at the office of Major Ferro, so at that time that

17 he saw me, he asked me to do what he needed done.

18 Q Was it a weekday or a weekend?

19 A It was on a regular day.

20 Q Meaning Monday through Friday?

21 A In between those days.

22 Q Was that in the evening?

23 A No, ma'am, it was during office hours.

24 Q It was at that time that you printed out

25 materials?

2080

1 A Yes, ma'am.

2 Q When did you come to the United States?

3 A It was about, I believe, the 17th of June.

4 Q Have you been staying here along with other

5 people from the Philippines in connection with this case?

6 A Yes, but we stay in separate locations.

7 Q Is one of those persons Reynaldo Canlas?

8 A Yes.

9 Q Do you know Reynaldo Canlas as a computer

10 consultant to the PNP?

11 A Yes, I know him and I have met him.

12 Q Did you know him in January of 1995?

13 A Yes, ma'am.

14 Q When you printed the materials in the computer,

15 was he present there?

16 A No, ma'am, he wasn't there. Mr. Canlas was not

17 there.

18 Q Was Major Ferro present at that time?

19 A Yes, ma'am, he was there, and I turned over the

20 printouts to him.

21 Q Were you the only one working on the computer at

22 the time that you made these printouts?

23 A As far as I know, I was the only one that was

24 handling that computer.

25 Q Could you repeat, please.

2081

1 THE COURT: Would you read it back.

2 (Record read)

3 Q You were the only one that was handling the

4 computer? Is that your testimony?? Is that what you knew?


6 THE COURT: That is exactly what he said. Next

7 question.

8 Q When you were given the computer on Saturday

9 evening in January, that Saturday evening in January, was it

10 your understanding that you were the first person that Major

11 Ferro asked to work on the computer?

12 MR. KULCSAR: Objection.



15 A I didn't know whether this was given to someone

16 else before he gave it to me.

17 Q To your knowledge, does Major Ferro have computer

18 skills?

19 THE INTERPRETER: Would you repeat for the

20 interpreter, please.

21 Q To your knowledge, does Major Ferro have computer

22 skills and does he work on the computers?

23 A As far as I know, his knowledge is limited. He

24 would know Word Start but he is not familiar with Windows.

25 Q Have you ever seen him work on computers?

2082

1 A Yes. I have not seen him personally working or

2 doing some writing in the computer. What would happen is,

3 if a task needed to be done that neccessitated the use of a

4 computer, this task was then delegated to us, his personnel.

5 Q You stated that you learned about computers from

6 people that you work with, is that correct?

7 A Yes, I learned it from personnel that work within

8 the unit of our office, the IC, but I didn't mean to tell

9 you that it was exactly from personnel that were working

10 right there in our office.

11 Q Is it common practice for the persons in your

12 office with more expertise to teach other people with less

13 expertise in your office about computers?


15 THE COURT: Go ahead and answer it.

16 A Ma'am, unfortunately, our resources are limited

17 in that office, so that in order to learn the aspects of

18 working with the computer, we would depend on an association

19 and cooperation with other members of the offices within the

20 unit. We take our own initiative so that we can expand our

21 knowledge.

22 Q But you learned computers from the people that

23 you work with, correct?


25 Q Is Major Ferro the boss of that office, that

2083

1 unit?

2 A There is somebody that is higher ranking than

3 him. He is just a chief of that particular branch.

4 Q Chief of that particular branch, meaning that

5 location?

6 A He is the chief of the technical support branch

7 and that is his office.

8 Q Of that unit that he is chief of, did you ever

9 see him take an instruction from anyone there about

10 computers?

11 A That part, I don't know, ma'am.

12 Q Prior to the time that you spoke to Mr. Snell,

13 did you speak to Major Ferro about your activities with the

14 computer?


16 interpreter.

17 Q Prior to the time that you spoke to Mr. Snell in

18 October 1995, did you speak to Major Ferro about your

19 activities with the computer?

20 A Yes, I had some desire to talk to him about it,

21 but unfortunately the schedules had conflict and I was never

22 able to talk to him about it.

23 Q Did you talk to anyone else about your activities

24 prior to going to speak to Mr. Snell?

25 A No, ma'am, no one else. I wasn't paying much

2084

1 attention to these matters.

2 Q Again, sir, do you deny that you told Mr. Snell

3 that it was a Monday or Tuesday or that you first saw the

4 computer?


6 Q The last time you saw the computer was when?

7 A The second and the last time that I saw this

8 computer was when he had asked me to make a printout of the

9 contents of the computer, and that happened to fall on a

10 working day.

11 Q When were you made aware that you were coming to

12 the United States to testify?

13 A I had an inkling and some idea when the attorneys

14 and the FBI came to speak to us.

15 Q Who told you that you were going to be coming

16 here to testify?

17 A It was Mr. Snell, and he said that we may be

18 needed to be witnesses to testify here.

19 Q You said that prior to speaking to Mr. Snell you

20 desired to speak to Major Ferro but you weren't able to.

21 Were you able to speak to him prior to coming here to

22 testify?

23 A Yes, we had spoken, but the things that we spoke

24 about were not related to what we have here today.

25 Q When is the last time you spoke to him prior to

2085

1 coming here?

2 A I believe it was sometime last week at the hotel.

3 Q Is Major Ferro here in the United States, to your

4 knowledge?

5 A Yes, he is staying in the same location that we

6 are in at this time.

7 Q Sir, did you review your testimony yesterday with

8 Mr. Snell at the end of the day?

9 A No.

10 Q Did you speak with him this morning?

11 A Yes.





16 Q Sir, you were talking about the regular business

17 hours of the Intelligence Command. Is that Monday to

18 Friday, 9 to 5?

19 A What I would consider as normal working hours for

20 government offices would be from 8 to 5.

21 Q 8 to 5, and from 8 to 5, Monday to Friday, the

22 Intelligence Command is in operation, is that fair to say?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Would you repeat that for the

24 interpreter.

25 Q Monday to Friday, 8 to 5, the Intelligence

2086

1 Command is in operation.

2 A When I say operation, sir, I mean that the

3 regular course of a working day would be from 8 to 5. But

4 if you are talking about the operation of the Intelligence

5 Command, that would be all day, and there are times that

6 this continues on and keeps on going, day after day after

7 day.

8 Q Are the offices manned 24 hours a day?

9 A Could you repeat that question.

10 Q Are the offices of the PNP Intelligence Command

11 manned 24 hours a day?

12 A Yes, sir. Far and beyond the regular working

13 hours there would be personnel that are assigned to work,

14 and you could term this as alert teams, and they are

15 assigned specific areas for that period of time.

16 Q Sir, on January 7, 1995, did you participate in

17 any raids anywhere in Manila?

18 A No, sir, I did not participate in such a thing.

19 Q When you were questioned by Mr. Snell --

20 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Let's make sure.

21 Take out the word raid. On January 7, did you participate

22 in any kind of search pursuant to search warrant?

23 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I didn't.

24 Q Were you aware of any police action, searches,

25 raids on or around January 7, 1995, that took place in Metro

2087

1 Manila?

2 A No, sir, I don't know anything about an incident

3 happening around that time.

4 Q Sir, when you came to the offices, you say on the

5 weekend in January of 1995, were you just told here is a

6 computer, look for information, or were you told without

7 getting into it something beyond that?

8 THE COURT: Hold it, Mr. Interpreter. The

9 question was specifically was he told here is the computer,

10 see what you can do with it, or was it more than that, one

11 or the other?

12 A What I was told was to look into was the contents

13 of this computer. Whether this was something else or not,

14 nothing was said to me.

15 Q Sir, as I understand your testimony, you had

16 contact with this computer on two separate days. Is that a

17 fair statement?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q And correct me if I am wrong, the first time when

20 you have contact with the computer you browse it to see what

21 information you can gather, is that a fair statement?

22 A What I can tell you, sir, was I browsed it and I

23 went to look into the write program, and that was the extent

24 of it.

25 Q And the second time you didn't browse it, the

2088

1 second time you printed. Fair statement?

2 A Yes, sir, that was the time that I said that I

3 copied the information from this computer and that in turn I

4 copied it into the computer that we had and made a printout

5 of this.

6 Q Sir, when you were questioned by Mr. Snell in

7 1995, October of 1995, you basically were questioned about

8 these two incidents we have just described, correct?


10 Q With respect to the first time you had access,

11 when you browsed the file, isn't it a fact you told

12 Mr. Snell that the computer was given to Mr. Ferro, or Major

13 Ferro, Monday or Tuesday after the raids? Did you say that

14 to him?

15 A Yes, sir. What I can tell you is perhaps it was

16 possible that that's what Mr. Snell had remembered, but what

17 I remembered is that this happened on a Saturday, and it was

18 an evening where there was no work to be done in our

19 offices, and that was a weekend, later on in the afternoon,

20 that I was given the task to work on this computer. Whether

21 this was Monday or Tuesday, I don't know, but what I know

22 is, it was on a weekend.

23 Q Sir, did you tell him it was after the raids?

24 A At that time that I handled that computer, that

25 first time -- that was a Saturday -- I didn't know that

2089

1 there was such a raid. Eventually perhaps when I talked to

2 Mr. Snell, perhaps I had mentioned, when I had learned later

3 that there was a raid that happened on a Saturday.

4 MR. KULCSAR: Object. Your Honor, could we have

5 the last answer stricken as not responsive?

6 THE COURT: No.

7 Q You said raids, didn't you?

8 A What are you asking me?

9 Q When you spoke to Mr. Snell, you didn't say raid,

10 you said raids, isn't that right?

11 A Yes, sir, by the time I had spoken to Mr. Snell

12 that time, I had learned that there were some raids that

13 have happened. As to when and how many of these raids

14 occurred, I don't know. All I can tell you was that

15 Saturday that I had that computer, I didn't know that such a

16 raid or raids had occurred.

17 Q Sir, is it your testimony that when you were in

18 there on this Saturday that you are talking about, that

19 there was no or very little activity in the offices of the

20 Intelligence Command?

21 A Whether or not anything was happening at that

22 time I don't know, but my observation was when I came to the

23 office at that time, everything was normal and quiet.

24 Q And in your recollection now as you sit on the

25 stand, it wasn't a Monday or Tuesday that this happened but

2090

1 it was a Saturday.


3 THE COURT: He testified to that.

4 Q Sir, did you also tell Mr. Snell back in October

5 of 1995 that two or three days after the computer arrived in

6 Major Ferro's office, you then browsed the file? File

7 manager, excuse me.

8 A I don't remember saying that.

9 Q Are you saying you didn't say it or just that you

10 don't recall saying it?

11 A What I remember was what I had told you, sir, but

12 I cannot remember distinctly all the details of this case.

13 It has been quite sometime.

14 Q Quite sometime going back to January of 1995,

15 correct?

16 A Yes, that time as well as the time that Mr. Snell

17 spoke to me, that has been quite sometime ago.


19

20

21

22

23

24

25

2091

1 Q But you are saying now you have no recollection

2 of whether or not you told Mr. Snell that two or three days

3 after the computer arrived you browsed the file manager?



6 MR. GREENFIELD: No further questions, your

7 Honor.

8 THE COURT: Any redirect?

9 MR. SNELL: No, your Honor.


11 (Witness excused)

12 THE COURT: Tell you what, ladies and gentlemen.

13 We might as well take our afternoon break at this point,

14 too.

15 (Jury excused)

16 THE COURT: Do you want to surprise me or do you

17 want to tell me who is next?

18 MR. SNELL: I don't think it will be a surprise,

19 your Honor. Jose Cruz.

20 THE COURT: I figured it was Ferro.

21 (Recess)

22 (Jury present)


24

25

2092

1 JOSE CRUZ, JR.,






7 BY MR. SNELL:

8 Q Mr. Cruz, sir, what do you do for a living?

9 A Yes. I am currently self-employed. I work

10 occasionally part-time doing accounting for some books. I

11 also do some lecturing, and I also sometimes employ myself

12 with a private security firm.

13 Q What did you do before you became

14 self-employed -- professionally, that is?

15 A I am a member of the police, sir.

16 Q Is that the Philippine National Police?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q How long were you a member of the Philippine

19 National Police?

20 A I am a policeman for 30 and one half years, sir.

21 Q When did you retire -- from the police force,

22 that is?

23 A I retired on March 25, 1995.

24 Q While you were with the Philippine National

25 Police, did you specialize in any particular area of law

2093

1 enforcement?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q In what area was that?

4 A Yes. I am trained in the explosive ordinance

5 disposal course.

6 Q Did you work in the area of explosive ordinance

7 disposal?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q Where did you do that work?

10 A I have been doing this for the police since 1972

11 when this particular unit was formed.

12 Q Which unit are you referring to?

13 A It is the explosive ordinance disposal unit of

14 what was the Manila police at that time.

15 Q At that time, meaning 1972?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q Did that unit become known as a different

18 jurisdiction or title?

19 A In 1991, that became the Philippine National

20 Police.

21 Q Was there a certain part of the Philippine

22 National Police that you were assigned to?

23 A Yes, sir. It is with the Western Police District

24 Command, which includes comprising the city of Manila.

25 Q Did you hold a position or rank within that unit?

2094

1 A Before I retired, I was the chief of that

2 particular unit and I had the title of inspector.

3 Q How long did you hold that position?

4 A For about five years, sir.

5 Q Does the title of inspector that you held have an

6 equivalent in military rankings?

7 A It would be the equivalent of a lieutenant.

8 Q Were you ever part of the Philippine military?

9 A No, sir, I didn't.

10 Q At or around the time of your retirement, were

11 you presented with a certificate by the United States

12 government commending your work?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q Mr. Cruz, let me direct your attention to the

15 night of January 6, going to January 7, of 1995. Where were

16 you at that time?

17 A I was at my residence, sir.

18 Q What happened while you were there that night?

19 A Yes. At around 2:00, early in the morning, I

20 received a call from my office and I was instructed that I

21 was to contact and call Mr. Ramilo, one of the personnel

22 that I am in charge of, and I was to contact him at the

23 Josefa Apartments.

24 Q What is Mr. Ramilo's first name?

25 A His first name is Orlando Ramilo. MARK0/0/0.

2095

1 Q Where are the Josefa Apartments located?

2 A That is located at 711 President Quirino Avenue,

3 Malate, Manila.

4 Q What did you do after you received this telephone

5 call?

6 A I placed a call to contact Mr. Ramilo at the


8 Q After your conversation with Mr. Ramilo, what did

9 you do?

10 A Yes. I quickly got dressed and got ready, and I

11 proceeded to that location.

12 Q What happened when you arrived at the Josefa

13 Apartments?

14 A Yes. I arrived there and I asked the policemen

15 where I should direct myself, and I was directed to head on

16 upstairs to the sixth floor.

17 Q What did you see when you got to the sixth floor?

18 A Yes. When I got to the sixth floor I was met by

19 Mr. Ramilo, Mr. Mandigma, who is another one of my

20 personnel. There was Captain Fariscal and there was a

21 foreigner there, who looked like he was of Middle Eastern

22 extraction.

23 Q Did you say Mr. Mandigma?

24 A Yes, sir.

25 Q Was he one of the men in your unit?

2096

1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q Who was Captain Fariscal?

3 A Yes, sir, she was a policewoman and she was from

4 station number 9, and they had jurisdiction for that

5 particular location.

6 Q You mentioned that there was also someone who

7 appeared to be of Middle Eastern extraction there, is that

8 right?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q Do you remember what that person looked like?

11 A I would say that he would be about 30 years old.

12 He looks like he was a hairy person, but then again he had

13 no facial hair at that time.

14 Q Mr. Cruz, I would like you to take a look around

15 the courtroom and tell us whether you see the person who was

16 the person that you just described in the courtroom today?

17 THE INTERPRETER: He said his eyesight is a

18 little bit poor, if he could --

19 A May I go down?

20 THE COURT: Sure.

21 A Counting from this end, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, the big

22 person that is bearing a suit. I believe that that is a red

23 tie that he is wearing.

24 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, may the record reflect an

25 identification?

2097

1 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Murad is identified.

2 Q Mr. Cruz, what were your men, Mr. Ramilo and

3 Mr. Mandigma, doing when you first saw them at the sixth

4 floor?

5 A They were inspecting the contents of that room.

6 Q Which room are you referring to?

7 A I am referring to room 603 of the Josefa

8 Apartments.

9 Q Could you describe what that room looked like

10 when you first entered it?

11 A Yes. There were a lot of things scattered inside

12 that room. It was quite chaotic. There were some bottles

13 of different kinds of chemicals. There were different kinds

14 of electronic parts that were scattered around. There were

15 different kinds of electronic wires scattered around. There

16 were some watches that I saw. There were some timers.

17 There was some cotton. There was gasoline. There was some

18 sugar. There were some cooking stoves. There was a

19 crucifix. There were some bibles there. There were

20 different kinds of books. I believe there was a dictionary.

21 There were books referring to electronics. There were some

22 men's cosmetics. Scattered around there were also some

23 business cards. They looked like ID cards, they looked like

24 calling cards. And there were just a lot of things. Yes, I

25 also saw some pipes that were empty.

2098

1 Q Let me ask you first, sir, with respect to the

2 watches that you mentioned, what sorts of watches did you

3 see?

4 A I saw some Casio watches and then I saw one Adec

5 watch.

6 Q Is that A-D-E-C?

7 A A-D-E-C.

8 Q Where did you see Casio watches?

9 A Inside the drawers of the two small tables.

10 Q Where were those tables located?

11 A Yes. One of them was close to the window inside

12 the bedroom, and the other one was at the foot of the bed,

13 inside the bedroom, and this particular one had the mirror

14 attached to it.

15 Q The table had the mirror attached to it?

16 A It was a small table that had the mirror like

17 this. What would you call that?

18 Q The Casio watches, did you get a look at them at

19 this time?

20 A I looked at them but I didn't touch them.

21 Q Did you notice anything in particular about the

22 Casio watches?

23 A Yes. The Casio watches, in particular there was

24 a wire attached attached to it when I saw it, and then there

25 were some batteries there, 9-volt batteries.

2099

1 Q How many of the Casio watches -- withdrawn.

2 You have mentioned also that you saw an Adec

3 watch, is it?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q Where was the Adec watch that you saw?

6 A Yes. This Adec watch was on top of the wires.

7 These wires were on top of the table, the table that I

8 mentioned to you that had the mirror attached to it.

9 Q Could you describe what the Adec watch looked

10 like?

11 A Yes. This Adec watch, it was only the body

12 itself. There was no strap attached to it. But then again

13 there was a wire, a piece of wire that was soldered to it.

14 Q You also mentioned seeing some pipes, I believe.

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q Where did you see pipes?

17 A Yes, I did see some pipes. There were two that I

18 saw underneath the kitchen cabinet. The cabinet would be, I

19 believe, around the kitchen sink area. And then there was

20 one on top of that small table, and then there was another

21 one that was on top of the kitchen cabinet. This particular

22 one had some tape wrapped around it and some plastic.

23 Q What if anything did you do with the last pipe

24 that you just described, the one that was wrapped in tape,

25 after you noticed it?

2100

1 A Yes. This particular one that was wrapped in

2 tape and had some plastic in it seemed to contain something,

3 and it emitted a particular odor, so that perhaps -- we were

4 suspicious that this contained something, so as we went on,

5 we sort of just left it alone there for the time being.

6 Q You also mentioned that you saw some ID's or

7 calling cards, I believe.

8 A Yes, there were. I collected one.

9 Q Could you describe what the calling card that you

10 collected looked like.

11 A Yes. This particular calling card had some kind

12 of design on the left side, and on the other side of it was

13 the name Dr. Vijay written. Then it had the offices being

14 shown as offices that were around the Megamall.

15 Q Could you tell us, please, what the Megamall is.

16 A Yes. The Megamall is a large, gigantic shopping

17 complex that would be located in the city of Malate.

18 Q Is that in the Metro Manila area?



21 be shown what has been marked Government's Exhibit 320 for

22 identification.

23 Q Mr. Cruz, do you recognize what is there in

24 Government's Exhibit 320?

25 A This is like what I had collected.

2101

1 Q Is that a fair and accurate copy of the card that

2 you collected on that day?

3 A Yes, sir. As you can see, this Dr. Vijay, that

4 is the name and the address that is written here, at

5 Mandaluyong Megamall.

6 Q The rest of the exhibit underneath the card that

7 you are looking at, could you take a look at that and tell

8 us whether you recognize the other items in that container?

9 A Yes. This is what I had collected over there,

10 and there were a lot of these scattered all over the place.


12 Exhibit 320.

13 MR. KULCSAR: May we see it, please.

14 No objection, your Honor.

15 (Government's Exhibit 320 received in evidence)

16 THE COURT: I have gone through these fast. It

17 is a stack of cards. I assume you are willing to represent

18 that they are all the same.


20 Q Mr. Cruz, while you were inside apartment 603,

21 did there come a time when someone else arrived at the

22 apartment?

23 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, I would object

24 because I think that question calls for a yes or no answer.

25 I think the answer is too long for a yes or no.

2102

1 THE COURT: I don't believe it necessarily

2 required a yes or no. Read it back to me just in case.

3 (Record read)

4 THE COURT: It could be viewed as a yes or no.

5 Go ahead, try it.

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q Who arrived?

8 (Laughter)

9 THE INTERPRETER: OK, the way he is phrasing

10 this, he is giving me what he has spoken already.

11 MR. GREENFIELD: Objection, your Honor. It is

12 not responsive.

13 THE COURT: No, go ahead, answer. Give us the

14 answer that he is giving.

15 A Yes, I will do that.

16 Q Where are we?

17 Could you tell us, sir, who arrived at the

18 apartment?

19 A Yes. The people that arrived, there arrived

20 Major Bautista, who was the station commander for station

21 number 9. Also arrived at that time was General Ebdane, who

22 is the district director for that area,. Together with

23 General Ebdane were some people with the EOD unit of the

24 Malacanang, which is part of the presidential security

25 group. Later arrived General Canson, who is the regional

2103

1 commander for the district of Manila. Then also arrived

2 later on was Colonel Razon, who is part of the presidential

3 security group. General Canson is the commander for the

4 national region.

5 Q Are those men that you just identified all part

6 of the Philippine National Police?

7 A General Canson, Major Bautista and General

8 Ebdane, yes, and Colonel Razon is part of the presidential

9 security group.

10 Q What happened after these men arrived -- I assume

11 they are all men -- arrived at the apartment?

12 A Yes. After they have arrived, they looked and

13 they looked around and investigated in that same room where

14 we went in, where I had told you earlier the things that I

15 saw. These were the same things that they saw when they

16 looked around.

17 MR. GREENFIELD: Objection to what they saw.

18 THE COURT: No.

19 A These were the same things that they saw when

20 they looked around. At that time, they also saw the

21 computer that was pointed out to them --


23 THE COURT: No, I will permit it. Go ahead.

24 A At that time, they also saw the computer that was

25 shown to them by Mr. Ramilo and Mr. Mandigma. General Razon

2104

1 instructed us not to touch anything --


3 THE COURT: That part is out. Next question.

4 Q Were you present, sir, when the computer was

5 shown to the general?

6 A Yes, sir, I saw that.

7 Q What happened next after the officers looked

8 around the apartment?

9 A We were instructed not to touch anything and I

10 was instructed to apply for a warrant.

11 Q What do you mean by a warrant?

12 A That I was to apply for a search warrant.

13 Q What did you do after you got those instructions?

14 A What I did was, I collected some samples of the

15 things that were inside the room, and it was my intention to

16 take this in front of the judge so he can see what was

17 inside the room. I proceeded to get an empty attache case

18 which was in the bedroom. In that attache case I put a

19 Casio watch with a wire attached to it. I put inside the

20 attache case two batteries. I also put in the attache case

21 an empty pipe. Mr. Ramilo also handed me a folder with some

22 papers in it, and I had put that inside the attache case as

23 well.

24 Later on, as we were getting ready to go

25 downstairs, lastly, I picked out the suspicious device that

2105

1 was in the kitchen cabinet, and I put that into the attache

2 case.


4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

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15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

2106

1 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, would this be an

2 appropriate time to break for the day?

3 THE COURT: Yes. That was just what I was

4 thinking about. All right, ladies and gentlemen, today is

5 Thursday. Have a great weekend.

6 (Jury excused)

7 (Witness excused)

8 THE COURT: I should point out strictly for

9 purposes of record that in dealing in a trial where you have

10 people of different cultures and different languages, it is

11 almost impossible to be 1,000 percent on target with rulings

12 on evidence. It may be, on a strictly, strictly technical

13 point of view, that I should not have permitted the phrase

14 "they saw," but I have noticed with the translations that

15 have come along practically everything is active and not

16 reflexive. Thus there was very little "they were shown," it

17 was more a "they saw" kind of thing. Under the

18 circumstances, since it was going to come out anyway, might

19 as well come out the first time around.

20 All right, we resume on Monday at 10:00.

21 Before we go, though, there are a couple of

22 questions which I think the government should answer, not

23 for me so much but for defense counsel, because these

24 pictures may be a boobytrap. What is the time of this

25 picture, if you know? When was it taken and where was it

2107

1 taken? Is this a picture taken in the apartment?


3 THE COURT: The picture being 361? Is that what

4 it is? What is the number on it?

5 MR. SNELL: 360I, your Honor.

6 THE COURT: 360I?

7 MR. SNELL: Yes.

8 THE COURT: This picture was supposedly taken at

9 what point? During the execution of the search warrant?

10 MR. SNELL: No, your Honor. It was taken before

11 the search warrant was even applied for.

12 THE COURT: And this was taken when the crowd

13 came in before the search warrant?

14 MR. SNELL: Yes, your Honor. In fact, it is my

15 understanding that it was during the period that the witness

16 is now in the process of testifying about.

17 THE COURT: That is what I guessed, but I wanted

18 to make sure.

19 There is apparent in this picture, which is 360J,

20 I am going to bet --

21 MR. SNELL: Right.

22 THE COURT: -- a portable typewriter over which a

23 man in blue is hunched.

24 MR. SNELL: That is Captain Fariscal, I believe,

25 your Honor.

2108

1 THE COURT: Sorry, a woman.

2 MR. SNELL: It is tough to tell from that

3 photograph.

4 THE COURT: You never know these days. OK. My

5 guess, a police person.

6 Was a statement taken at this point of the

7 defendant that hasn't been turned over?

8 MR. SNELL: I don't believe so, Judge, not that

9 we are aware of.

10 THE COURT: The picture may be -- well, my

11 reaction when I looked at it was, uh-huh, they are taking a

12 statement, but you tell me to the best of your knowledge

13 there is no such statement. Am I correct?

14 MR. SNELL: That is right, your Honor.

15 THE COURT: Monday.

16 (Proceedings adjourned until Monday, July 15,

17 1996, at 10:00 a.m.)

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

2110




22 ALSO PRESENT: Lillie Grant, Paralegal, U.S. Attorney's Office 23 INTERPRETERS: AZIZ ISMAIL, HASSAM MOWAD, CHRIS MASAOAY

24

25

2111


2 THE COURT: David, somebody tells me that you had

3 an application.

4 MR. GREENFIELD: Yes, your Honor.

5 THE COURT: Okay.

6 MR. GREENFIELD: Sorry I was indisposed.

7 THE COURT: That's all right, no problem. At

8 times I'm late and you don't yell at me.

9 MR. GREENFIELD: If the Court please, reading the

10 3500 that was provided with respect to the present witness,

11 Inspector Cruz, I asked the government if they intended to

12 ask for an in-court identification of my client, and, also,

13 whether they are going to offer a purported statement my

14 client made, and the government indicated yes to both

15 questions. There may be a problem as to both. I would

16 request an in-court, out of the presence of the jury hearing

17 with respect to the identification, and I would move to

18 preclude any statement. This is the first notice I've

19 gotten of it, and under Rule 16 would preclude it.

20 THE COURT: What's the statement?

21 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, the statement is to the

22 effect -- I don't have the 3500 material in front of me --

23 but it's to the effect that Mr. Greenfield's client told the

24 witness that he was a refugee from Russia who had emigrated

25 to Norway, and it's 3523-I, your Honor, is the 3500

2112

1 document, handwritten notes. Those are my notes. This is a

2 statement that just came into the possession of the

3 government within the last couple of weeks.

4 THE COURT: 16(a)(1)(A) provides that upon

5 request of the defendant the government must disclose, make

6 available for inspection, copy and photograph any relevant

7 written or recorded statements made by the defendant within

8 the possession, custody or control of the government. You

9 say you got it within the last couple of weeks. Rule 16(c).

10 Continuing duty to disclose. If prior to or during trial a

11 party discovers additional evidence or material previously

12 requested or ordered, they shall promptly notify the other

13 party.

14 Why wasn't he told a couple of weeks ago? You

15 don't tell, you don't play by the rules, you get precluded.

16 It's not coming out. It's that simple. All right.

17 The question of the identification, why do you

18 think an identification would be improper?

19 MR. GREENFIELD: Mr. Snell informed me this

20 morning, upon my request, that there were no photo arrays,

21 but because of the length of time between the purported

22 incident and the identification I think it would be

23 propitious to have a hearing to determine if there was some

24 sort of pictorial identification. If the Court will

25 remember with a prior witness we had a hearing, a Wade

2113

1 hearing, and it turned out that the witness says he did in

2 fact see an individual photo of my client prior to seeing

3 the array. For tactical purposes I didn't at that time move

4 to preclude the testimony, but I think based on the track

5 record here that a hearing would be required, and so request

6 it.

7 THE COURT: The track record is not enough.

8 There was something more the last time. All right. Now,

9 where is Jose L., also known as, Mike Cruz?

10 MR. GREENFIELD: Will the Court allow Mr. Snell

11 to instruct the witness not to refer to the statement?



14

15

16

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18

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20

21

22

23

24

25

2114

1 JOSE L. CRUZ, resumed, through the

2 interpreter.

3 (Jury present)

4 THE COURT: Look at it this way, ladies and

5 gentlemen, at least this year there is no possibility of a

6 drought. We'll have water. Did you guys get caught and

7 drowned in the rain storm? Holy mackerel, did I ever catch

8 it, wet through. Judicial robes, I want you to know, do not

9 guarantee bright sun shiny days.

10 All right. You will recall that we're having

11 formerly Lt. Cruz on the stand. He was testifying. He was

12 telling us in effect about being to the Dona Josefa where he

13 was in room 603 on January 7th.

14 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)

15 BY MR. SNELL:

16 Q Mr. Cruz, I believe when we broke on Thursday you

17 had just testified about an attache case that you put some

18 items into in room 603; is that right?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Would you remind us, please, what it was that you

21 put in that attache case?

22 A Yes, sir. What I had put in that attache case

23 was a Casio watch with some wires attached to it, two pieces

24 of a nine volt battery. I had also put in that case an

25 empty pipe. Also, I had put the folder envelope that was

2115

1 given to me by Mr. Ramilo, and lastly, I put in that attache

2 case the suspicious device that we had found around the

3 kitchen area cabinet on the upper portion.

4 Q Let me ask you with respect to the Casio watch

5 where did you first see that before you placed it inside the

6 attache case?

7 A Yes. I found it in that small table inside the

8 bedroom that had a mirror attached to it.

9 Q What about the battery? I believe you just said

10 it was two pieces of battery. Is that what you said?

11 A Yes, sir, 9 volt batteries.

12 Q Two batteries?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q Where did you find them?

15 A It was with the watch in the drawer.

16 Q What about the empty pipe?

17 A I found that in the kitchen area, sir.

18 Q Could you describe what part of the kitchen area

19 you found that?

20 A It was on top of that cabinet I believe that was

21 attached to the kitchen sink.

22 Q Now, did you put anything inside the attache case

23 with the empty pipe?

24 A Yes, I completed it by putting an end cap to it

25 and I got that end cap from the bottom portion of the

2116

1 kitchen sink where there were other pipes sitting down over

2 there.

3 Q After you placed these items in the attache case

4 what did you do?

5 A After I had put those things into the attache

6 case, lastly, as we were getting ready to go down, I went to

7 get the suspicious device that was on top of the kitchen

8 cabinet by the kitchen sink, and after I had done that, then

9 we proceeded on to go downstairs, and then from there we

10 were going to render safe the suspicious device.

11 Q Will you tell us, please, what you did in that

12 regard?

13 A Yes, sir. What we had done was by that time when

14 we got downstairs it was still a little bit dark so what we

15 did was to proceed to my office, and when we got to my

16 office I left the attache case there and I stored it in my

17 office and that particular suspicious device was left in the

18 vehicle of Mr. Mandigma for the time being.

19 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, I know it's difficult,

20 could we just ask the witness as best he can not to say

21 "we." If it's someone else, could he identify?

22 THE COURT: Sure. Go ahead.

23 Q Mr. Cruz, who else was with you at the time that

24 you left the attache case in the office?

25 A Yes, it was only myself that went to the office.

2117

1 Mr. Mandigma and Mr. Ramilo were left in the garage by the

2 vehicle and later on I returned to where they were.

3 Q Did there come a time when the three of you went

4 somewhere after you left the attache case in the office?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q Where did you go?

7 A Yes. It was getting brighter. Then we proceeded

8 on to go to the reclamation area and that is where we tried

9 to undo and defuse the suspicious device.

10 Q Would you tell the jury, please, how you went

11 about doing that?

12 A Yes. The way we did this was to secure an empty

13 spare tire and in the empty entire tire what we did was to

14 put the suspicious device within the parameters or inside

15 this spare tire. Putting it inside the spare tire we then

16 used a disrupter, and the disrupter is being used so that we

17 can take off the end cap of the suspicious device and we

18 were able to do that.

19 Q What happened after you removed the end cap from

20 the suspicious device with the disrupter?

21 A Yes. After we had done that I was able to see

22 that inside the suspicious device was a chemical mixture

23 which was in a plastic, and having done that I also was able

24 to observe that there was no fusing system in this

25 particular device. So at that point what we did was to

2118

1 return this chemical mixture inside this container, and

2 after having done that, we wrapped it very, very well in a

3 piece of plastic because the odor and the smell was quite

4 tremendous.

5 Q You mentioned the fusing system. Would you tell

6 us, please, what that is?

7 A What I mean by that is this particular device did

8 not have an initiator that would cause it to explode. There

9 was no electrical connections or timing with it.

10 Q After you gathered up these materials, the

11 suspicious device and the contents, chemical contents and

12 wrapped them up, what did you do?

13 A We took it with us, and then we returned to our

14 office.

15 Q What did you do after you returned to the office?

16 A We then proceeded on to make an inventory of the

17 contents of the attache case.

18 Q Would you please tell us how you went about doing

19 that?

20 A I did that by listing one by one what the

21 contents of the attache case was.

22 Q Did you have any help in doing that inventory?

23 A Mr. Ramilo was with me and he was present while I

24 was doing this.

25 Q What happened after you finished inventorying the

2119

1 contents of the attache case?

2 A That morning I had received an instruction that I

3 was to take this attache case to the office of the

4 Presidential security group at the Malacanang Palace.

5 Q Did you do that?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q About what time did you arrive at the

8 Presidential security group office?

9 A At around 8 or 9 in the morning.

10 Q Who, if anyone, did you see when you got there?

11 A There were some officers there and I don't know

12 their names.

13 Q What did you do upon your arrival at the

14 Presidential security group office?

15 A I opened the attache case, and I took out what

16 the contents of the attache case, and left it there with

17 them. And at that time I left and went back to the office.

18 Q Would you tell us, please, what the contents of

19 the attache case were at this time when you removed them at

20 the office of the Presidential security group?

21 A Yes. When I emptied out that attache case at the

22 PSG what I took out of the attache case was the watch with

23 the wirings, the batteries that I had mentioned earlier, the

24 empty pipe that I also had mentioned earlier, and also I

25 took out the envelope with some contents of papers inside it

2120

1 that I had mentioned earlier, and the suspicious device that

2 I had also mentioned to you earlier.

3 Q Now, at what point had you placed the suspicious

4 device back inside the attache case?

5 A When we returned to our office coming from the

6 reclamation area.

7 Q By "we," who do you mean?

8 A I refer to Mr. Ramilo and Mr. Mandigma, sir.

9 Q What did you do after you removed the items from

10 the attache case at the Presidential security group office?

11 A I left these things with them, sir, and then I

12 left and went back to my office.

13 Q Now, did there come a time when you were

14 requested to retrieve the items at the Presidential security

15 group?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q And when was that?

18 A I believe that was after lunch, past 12.

19 Q Where did you go in connection with retrieving

20 the attache case and the items with it?

21 A Yes. I collected that from the offices of Col.

22 Ferrer, but before that was given to me they had videotaped

23 it, and taken some pictures of the contents and the attache

24 case.

25 Q Was the videotaping and photographing done in

2121

1 your presence?

2 A Yes, it was done in front of me, sir.

3 Q You just mentioned Col. Ferrer. Who is he?

4 A He is an officer with the Presidential security

5 group, sir.

6 Q When did you first meet him?

7 A In this particular instance, sir.

8 Q After the videotaping and the photographing of

9 the items was finished what did you do?

10 A Yes, sir. I returned to my office after that,

11 and at that point I just was on standby as we were trying to

12 apply for the search warrant.

13 Q What did you do with the attache case and the

14 items with the attache case?

15 A I kept it in my offices, sir.

16 Q Now, you just mentioned a search warrant. Were

17 you asked to do anything in connection with the application

18 for a search warrant?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q What were you asked to do?


22 THE COURT: No. Answer it.

23 A I signed a document as a deponent or a witness.

24 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, I'm sorry, could I have

25 the last answer read back by the reporter?

2122

1 THE COURT: "I signed the document as a deponent

2 or a witness."

3 MR. KULCSAR: Thanks, your Honor.

4 Q Prior to your signing that document had you

5 filled out any other paperwork in connection with this case?

6 MR. KULCSAR: Objection, leading.

7 THE COURT: I know he is, but that's all right.

8 Go ahead and answer.

9 A Yes, I made a report.

10 Q When did you do that?

11 A Yes. I prepared that around noon time, just

12 before I went to the Malacanang Palace.

13 Q Now, would you tell us what you put in that

14 report?

15 A Yes, sir. What I had done was I had received an

16 instruction to prepare a report, and so I had prepared a

17 report. And in this report I reflected that this attache

18 case was turned over to me, although the truth of the matter

19 was I had been the person that collected this attache case.

20 Q Who gave you the instructions with respect to

21 preparing the report?

22 A My chief, Major Angeles.

23 Q And where did you receive that instruction?

24 A In our offices, sir.

25 Q And when was it that you got this instruction?

2123

1 A That morning, sir, before noon time.

2 Q Now, after you completed your report what

3 happened?

4 A I submitted a report to him, sir. At around 3

5 o'clock in the afternoon we proceeded to go to the

6 courthouse.

7 Q By, "we," who are you referring to?

8 A Yes. It was with a policeman and also with Major

9 Angeles who was the applicant for the warrant, and there

10 were also some other policemen from some other offices.

11 Q Would you tell us, please, what you mean by the

12 applicant for the warrant? Under Philippine procedure what

13 does that mean?

14 A That he is the person applying for the warrant,

15 and that we are his witnesses.

16 Q When you say "we are his witnesses," was there

17 somebody else who was also going to be a witness with you?

18 A Yes, it was the policeman from Station 9 who had

19 gone ahead of me and myself.

20 Q And who was the policeman from Station 9?

21 A Lt. Tizon.

22 Q What did you do once you went to the court, once

23 you got there?

24 A Yes. When it was my turn to face the judge I

25 signed a particular document. It's as a deponent or a

2124

1 witness. And also at that time the judge had asked me what

2 I had seen inside the apartment, and the things that we

3 needed to collect.

4 Q Now, the document that you signed, what did that

5 say about the attache case?

6 A I don't believe that it was contained there.

7 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, may I have one moment?

8 THE COURT: Sure.

9 (Pause)

10 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, may the witness be shown

11 what has been marked 3523-H for identification.

12 (Witness handed document)

13 Q Mr. Cruz, please take a look at that, read it to

14 yourself, and then tell us whether that's the document that

15 you were just referring to in your testimony?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q Now, having read it to yourself, does that

18 refresh your recollection as to whether there is any mention

19 of the attache case in the document?




23 A Yes, in this particular document there is no

24 reference --


2125


2 MR. SNELL: I offer it, your Honor.

3 THE COURT: You offer the document?

4 MR. SNELL: Yes.

5 THE COURT: Any objection?

6 MR. GREENFIELD: The witness' answer is not

7 responsive. He was asked a question --

8 THE COURT: No, he offered the document. I want

9 to know whether there is any objection to the document?

10 MR. KULCSAR: We don't know what the actual

11 document is.

12 MR. SNELL: 3523-I.

13 MR. GARCIA: H.

14 THE COURT: That's the one I'm looking at.

15 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: I have an objection, your

16 Honor.

17 MR. UDELL: I have an objection, also, your

18 Honor.

19 THE COURT: We'll take it at the break and go

20 from there. All right.

21 Q Mr. Cruz --

22 I'm sorry. Your Honor, may I proceed?

23 THE COURT: Sure.

24 Q Mr. Cruz, in addition to signing the document and

25 testifying before the judge about what you saw inside room

2126

1 603, did you tell the judge anything about the attache case?

2 MR. KULCSAR: Objection, leading, your Honor.

3 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Objection.

4 THE COURT: No. Go ahead.

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q What did you tell the judge?

7 A Yes. I had told him that this was turned over to

8 me, the attache case, by someone from, officer from someone

9 from station number 9, and I showed him the contents of the

10 attache case.

11 Q Now, was the part about having the attache case

12 turned over to you by someone from Station 9 true?

13 A No, sir.

14 Q You just described, you said you showed the judge

15 the contents of the attache case; is that right?

16 A Yes, sir.

17 Q What were those contents that you showed the

18 judge?

19 A Yes. I showed him the batteries. I showed him

20 the watch. I showed him the empty pipe. I showed him the

21 suspicious device, and I showed him the folder that

22 contained papers.

23 Q What did you do after you finished your testimony

24 in front of the judge?

25 A Sir, I returned to my office and I secured the

2127

1 attache case in my office.

2 Q How about the contents of the attache case?

3 Where were they when you returned to your office?

4 A They were inside the attache case, sir.

5 Q What did you do next that day?

6 A Yes, sir. We waited around our offices until we

7 got the instructions as to what time we were going to serve

8 the warrant.

9 Q And again, when you say "we," who are you

10 referring to?

11 A Sir, when I say, "we," I refer to the applicant

12 for the search warrant who is my chief, the members of the

13 EOD who were going to be present when the warrant was being

14 served.

15 Q And who were the members of the EOD that were

16 going to attend the search warrant serving process?

17 A The persons that were present at that time was

18 Mr. Ramilo, Mr. Mandigma, Mr. Voltaire Gomez, and

19 Mr. Capacete.

20 Q Now, did there come a time when you and the other

21 EOD personnel went to the Josefa building?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q Would you tell us, please, what happened when you

24 got there?

25 A Yes. When we arrived there we went into the

2128

1 front desk. We went to the personnel of the building, and

2 we said to them that there was an order for room 603 to be

3 searched, and so we presented to them the documents

4 regarding the warrant for the search. After that they

5 accompanied us and they opened the room. After they opened

6 the room, I was the first one to enter the room 603.

7 Q Now, aside from the EOD personnel that you've

8 just identified, was anyone else present when you were

9 searching room 603 pursuant to a search warrant?

10 A Yes, sir, there were other persons present there.

11 There was Gen. Ebdane, there was Col. Ferrer and his

12 personnel from Malacanang. There were also persons from the

13 headquarters of Camp Crame who I didn't know or recognize.

14 Q Did you know which command at Camp Crame they

15 were from?

16 A From what I knew they were from the intelligence

17 command.

18 Q After you entered the apartment what did you and

19 your men do?

20 A Yes. The way they did the search was we

21 collected some of the evidence that were present there, and

22 the way we did this was Mr. Voltaire Gomez was assigned to

23 write down or take down the inventory, and he is being

24 assisted by Mr. Ramilo and Mr. Mandigma. There was also a

25 fingerprint expert, a latent print expert that was provided

2129

1 there at that time. There was also a photographer that was

2 brought over by Major Angeles who was taking the pictures,

3 and Mr. Capacete was taking the video as this process was

4 being done.

5 Q What were you yourself doing while this was going

6 on?

7 A I was assisting and supervising with Mr. Ramilo

8 and his company.

9 Q Now, did there come a time when the search of the

10 apartment was completed?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q And what happened at that point?

13 A Yes. After we had done and collected everything

14 that we needed to collect from this room we were then

15 ordered to turn this over to the members of the intelligence

16 command with the exception of a black bag that I had in

17 possession of me, and with that black bag is a watch, and a

18 magazine, and I had kept this for the purpose of studying

19 the fusing system.

20 Q Now, where did you find the watch that was inside

21 the black bag?

22 A Yes, sir. I found this watch in a small drawer

23 by the small table that was located inside the bedroom, and

24 that particular table was located by the bedroom window, and

25 I might add that I also found a Casio timer in. And that

2130

1 particular Casio timer I had found that on top of the table

2 inside the bedroom that had the mirror attached to it.

3 Q What did you do with the Casio timer on the table

4 with the mirror?

5 A I also put this inside the bag.

6 Q What was the make of the watch that you found

7 inside the small drawer?

8 A Yes. This was a Casio DBC-61 with one battery

9 attached to it.

10 Q Was there any -- withdrawn. What was the make of

11 the watch that previously had been placed inside the attache

12 case when you were there early that morning?

13 A Yes. The one that was put inside the attache

14 case the difference of it was it is a DBC-62 and it had two

15 battery snaps attached to it.

16 Q Where relative to the DBC-61 had you found the

17 DBC-62?

18 A Yes, sir. The DBC-62 I found at the table that

19 was on the foot of the table that had the mirror attached to

20 it, and the DBC-61 I found that in the drawer of that table

21 that was also inside the bedroom, but it was beside the

22 bedroom window.

23 Q What did you do after you finished the search and

24 left the apartment?

25 A I prepared a report.

2131

1 Q What was the subject matter of that report?

2 A Yes. The contents of this report was in regards

3 to the matter, or how we had served the warrant that day,

4 and how all the things that we were able to get from this

5 particular apartment location was turned over to the

6 intelligence command. I also reflected in this report that

7 I had in my possession the black bag.

8 Q By the black bag, did you also discuss in the

9 report what the black bag contained?

10 A Yes, included in the description of that black

11 bag were the contents of the black bag.

12 Q Now, what did you do with the black bag and its

13 contents after you returned to your office?

14 A I kept it secured, sir.

15 Q Aside from the items that you placed inside the

16 black bag was there anything else inside there?

17 A Yes, sir. Upon close scrutiny and inspection of

18 the bag I found that there were some pocket tools inside.

19 Q What do you mean by pocket tools?

20 A When I say pocket tools I meant little

21 screwdriver devices and tweezers or something that you would

22 use for a watch.



25 THE COURT: No.

2132

1 Q Mr. Cruz, I'd like to direct your attention now

2 to January 11, 1995. Were you working on that day?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q Did there come a time when you were asked to go

5 someplace?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q Where were you asked to go?


9 THE COURT: We're going to get to it anyway. Go

10 ahead, answer.

11 A Yes. I was instructed, together with some

12 personnel from my office, to assist some personnel of the

13 intelligence command and I was to report to Singalong,

14 Manilla.

15 Q Where is Singalong, Manilla?

16 A It is in the southern part of Manilla in the

17 Malate area.

18 Q Is Singalong a street?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Were you asked to go to any place in particular

21 on Singalong Street?

22 A The address that was given to me that I should

23 report to is two zero one zero, 2010.

24 Q Did you go there?

25 A Yes, sir.

2133

1 Q By the way, could you tell the jury where that

2 location is relative to the Josefa building?

3 A It would be less than one kilometer.

4 Q Now, what did you do when you arrived at 2010

5 Singalong Street?

6 A I introduced myself and I identified myself to

7 the officer that was stationed in the post by the door, and

8 at that point he allowed me to enter.

9 Q Where did you go after you entered the building?

10 A Yes. This particular door was further inside

11 that building, and so when I arrived there I met some

12 personnel of the intelligence command and a foreigner was

13 present as well.

14 Q Now, at the time you entered the building and saw

15 the personnel from the intelligence command did you know who

16 those people were?

17 A No, sir, I did not know them at that point, so

18 what I did was I introduced myself and they in turn they

19 introduced themself. This particular person that was

20 introduced, that introduced himself to me was. Major

21 Monteagudo.

22 Q Now, you also mentioned that there was a

23 foreigner present; is that right, sir?

24 A Yes, sir, they were speaking to him.

25 Q Did you notice anything about the foreigner?

2134

1 A He was large and heavy.

2 Q Did you notice anything in particular about any

3 of his features?

4 A I believe that there were some digits missing

5 from his fingers, from his hands, I believe two fingers.

6 Q Mr. Cruz, I'd like you to take a look around the

7 courtroom and tell us whether you see the person that you

8 just referred to as a foreigner inside the address on

9 Singalong Street?

10 A May I step down and may I ask permission of the

11 Court if he would please show me his hand when I go near

12 him?

13 THE COURT: Please show us what?

14 THE INTERPRETER: His hands.

15 THE COURT: Well, you see if you can pick

16 somebody out. We'll talk about seeing his hands afterwards.

17 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, may the witness step

18 down?

19 THE COURT: Sure.

20 (Witness left the stand; witness resumed stand)

21 THE WITNESS: It is the gentleman that is in the

22 very end of the table that is wearing some earphones.

23 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, may the record reflect an

24 identification?

25 THE COURT: Yes. Wait until you read the record.

2135

1 MR. SNELL: I'm sorry, your Honor?

2 THE COURT: Wait until you read that record you

3 have just made.

4 MR. SNELL: That's why I'm going to ask for

5 clarification on the identification, your Honor. Indicating

6 the defendant Wali Khan Amin Shah?

7 THE COURT: Yes.

8 Q Mr. Cruz, what was happening in the meeting that

9 you just described involving Defendant Shah and the other

10 officers?

11 A Could you repeat that?

12 Q What was going on inside that -- withdrawn.

13 Where was everybody when you first saw the group

14 of people?

15 A They were in the downstairs part of the

16 apartment.

17 Q They were inside an apartment?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q And what were they doing when you entered?

20 A They were seated and they were talking.

21 Q Now, what did you do after you went inside the

22 apartment?

23 A Major Monteagudo told me that I should just wait

24 around until Gen. Canson had arrived before we continued on,

25 and did an inspection.

2136

1 Q What do you mean by an inspection?

2 A Yes. I was asked to report there to see if there

3 were any materials or anything --


5 THE COURT: Yes. What you were asked to do

6 doesn't count.

7 Q Did there come a time, sir, when Gen. Canson

8 arrived at the apartment?

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q After the General arrived what did you do, if

11 anything?

12 A Yes. When he arrived I proceeded on to do the

13 inspection to look around and see if there were any

14 materials --


16 THE COURT: No. All right.

17 MR. GREENFIELD: What did he do?

18 THE COURT: That's what he's saying. Go ahead.

19 A To see if there are materials that may be related

20 to the making of a bomb. We, I then proceeded upstairs with

21 the General to look into the two rooms that were upstairs

22 and it appeared to be empty.

23 Q Did you collect anything from the apartment at

24 2010 Singalong Street?

25 A Myself, no.

2137

1 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, would this be an

2 appropriate time for the morning break?

3 THE COURT: Sure. Do you expect to be with this

4 witness a while longer?

5 MR. SNELL: Yes, a while longer.

6 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen,

7 we'll take our break.

8 (Recess)


10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

2138

1 (Jury present)

2 BY MR. SNELL:

3 Q Mr. Cruz, did there come a time when you showed

4 the items that you had collected from apartment 603 to

5 someone?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q Who did you show them to?

8 A To Calvin Walbert of the FAA.

9 Q Is that Walbert?

10 A Walbert.

11 Q Do you know how that is spelled?

12 A It is W-A-L-B-E-R-T.

13 Q About when was it that you showed items to

14 Mr. Walbert?

15 A Approximately two weeks after we had collected

16 the items.

17 Q Where did you do this?

18 A Inside my offices.

19 Q Where is that located?

20 A At the headquarters of the Western District

21 police command at United Nations Avenue.

22 Q What if anything did Mr. Walbert do when you

23 showed him these items?

24 A He examined it, he looked it over, and then he

25 took some photographs.

2139

1 Q By "it," what do you mean?

2 A The attache case and the contents of the attache

3 case that I showed to him.


5 be shown Government's Exhibit 302 and Government's Exhibits

6 351A and B, all of which I think are in evidence.

7 Q First, Mr. Cruz, would you please take a look at

8 302, just 302. Do you recognize that? That is the case.

9 A Yes, sir.

10 Q How do you recognize that?

11 A This has my tag on it.

12 Q What is it? I mean the item, the case.

13 A This is an attache case with a tag.

14 Q When did you first see that attache case?

15 A Yes, I saw this for the first time in the morning

16 of January 7, at room 603.

17 Q Directing your attention to the two photographs,

18 351A and B, do you recognize what is shown in those photos?

19 A Could you repeat that?

20 Q Do you recognize what is shown in the two photos,

21 Government's Exhibits 351A and 351B?

22 A Yes. Photograph A contains the suspicious device

23 that I had opened, and also the empty pipe that I had

24 collected. And then the folder that contains the papers.

25 Q What about 351B?

2140

1 A B is the suspicious device that I had opened, and

2 shown here are the contents that were collected inside the

3 suspicious device, and I had shown this to him.

4 Q Is that to Mr. Walbert?

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q Just so that everybody understands when they look

7 at it, in Government's Exhibit 351A, could you hold up the

8 photo and point out what you mean by the suspicious device.

9 A This is the suspicious device that we brought

10 over to the reclamation area, and we opened.

11 Q Is that the item that appears to be wrapped in

12 some sort of white material?

13 A Yes. This thing that is wrapped in white

14 plastic.

15 Q You can put that down now.

16 Did there come a time after you showed these

17 items to Mr. Walbert that you showed them to someone else?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q When was that?

20 A Yes. After I had shown this to Mr. Calvin

21 Walbert, he had given us the invitation to visit the United

22 States Embassy in Manila, for us to show him what we have

23 here.

24 Q Who do you mean by "us"?

25 A Myself and personnel from the EOD.

2141

1 Q Did you go to the U.S. Embassy after your first

2 meeting there with Mr. Walbert?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q Where did you go in the embassy? Where within

5 the embassy did you go?

6 A We went into the conference room of the regional

7 security office of the United States Embassy.

8 Q Who was there when you went into the conference

9 room?

10 A Yes. We were met by Mrs. Wassen, and present

11 there there was an FBI chemist. There was an FBI

12 fingerprint expert. There was also present there an FBI

13 bomb technician, and also present was the FBI Agent Frank.

14 Q Is that Frank Pellegrino?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Who is Mrs. Wassen?

17 A She is a member of the regional security office

18 of the United States Embassy.

19 Q What did you do after you went inside the

20 conference room?

21 A Yes. They looked over the pieces of evidence

22 that we had opened, they looked it over one by one. The

23 chemist in particular took a sample and a swabbing of the

24 contents of the suspicious device. And also, they also took

25 photos of everything that we had brought there.

2142

1 Q Would you tell us now, what were the items that

2 you brought to the embassy?

3 A This attache case and the contents that went with

4 this attache case, the black bag and the contents of the

5 black bag, and also with that I brought pieces of evidence,

6 some fragments that have been collected from explosions that

7 have occurred not related to this.

8 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, could the witness be

9 shown what have been marked in evidence as Government's

10 Exhibits 302A, 351C, and 351D.

11 Q Mr. Cruz, would you please take a look at those

12 three exhibits, 302A, 351C and 351D, and tell us if you

13 recognize them.

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q What is 351C?

16 A This is a photograph of the Casio watch DBC 61.

17 Q How about 351D?

18 A This is the same watch. The photo is taken in

19 its reverse side.

20 Q Do 351C and D fairly and accurately show the way

21 the watch looked when you showed it to the FBI personnel at

22 the U.S. Embassy?

23 A Yes, sir.

24 Q Now please look at 302A. Do you recognize that?

25 A Yes, sir.

2143


2 A Yes, sir. This is the same watch that is shown

3 here in the photographs, but at this point this watch is

4 dismantled.

5 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, now could we show the

6 witness, please, 302B, which is just marked for

7 identification at this time, and also 302C, 302D, 302D1,

8 302D2, and 302E, which are also just marked for

9 identification. Just to be clear, I think 302C is in

10 evidence and the others are just marked for identification.

11 Q First, Mr. Cruz, would you take a look at 302C

12 and tell us what that is.

13 A This looks like the pipe that I had put inside

14 the attache case, that didn't contain anything.

15 Q If you would turn your attention to the other

16 exhibits that have just been placed up there, which are

17 302B, the 302D series, and 302E. First 302B, do you

18 recognize that?

19 A These are the batteries that were with the watch.

20 Q 302D, would you take a look at that and the

21 subparts that go with that exhibit.

22 A This is the masking tape that was tied around the

23 suspicious device that we had taken over and the chemist had

24 taken out to take a sampling of.

25 Q And 302E for identification, do you recognize

2144

1 that?

2 A Yes. Two of the coins contained here, I first

3 saw this when I got that bag, and then -- the attache case,

4 and then the other two was found at the U.S. Embassy when

5 they looked it over.

6 Q Where were the other two coins found?

7 A Inside the bag.

8 Q Is that the attache case?

9 A Inside the attache case.

10 Q Could you tell us whether Exhibits 302B, 302D,

11 D1, D2, and 302E appear to be in the same condition as they

12 were when you saw them at the embassy that day?

13 A This particular watch is in parts.

14 Q Just so the record is clear, that is 302A, is

15 that right?

16 A Yes, sir, this particular one.

17 Q What about the other exhibits? Would you tell us

18 whether those look like they are in the same condition, or

19 do they appear different?

20 A In this particular one, it was clean and not

21 discolored at that time.

22 Q Is that 302D and D1 and D2?

23 A 302D.

24 Q What about 302B?

25 A It's in the same condition.

2145

1 Q How about 302E?

2 A Yes, it was in the same condition. It's a little

3 bit dirty here.

4 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, may the exhibits be shown

5 to counsel prior to their offer?

6 MR. GREENFIELD: Have D1 and 2 been described?

7 MR. SNELL: Actually, I think D1 and 2 have only

8 been described at this time. If they are to be taken out of

9 the bag, I would ask that the witness be provided with a

10 pair of gloves.

11 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, I have an

12 objection as to E.

13 THE COURT: We will take it up later.

14 (Government's Exhibits 302B, 302D, D1 and D2

15 received in evidence)

16 Q Mr. Cruz, in addition to the items with the

17 attache case, did you also have with you the black bag and

18 its contents when you went to the embassy?

19 A Yes, sir.


21 be shown Government's Exhibit 334 for identification and

22 334A, 354A, 354B, which are marked for identification, and

23 334B, 334C, 334D, all of which also are just marked for

24 identification.

25 Q First, Mr. Cruz, would you please take a look at

2146

1 the black bag, which is Exhibit 334. Do you recognize that?

2 A Yes. This is the black Concord bag.

3 Q Concord bag?

4 A Yes. It has a tag that says Concord.

5 Q When did you first see that bag?

6 A That evening of January 7, at room 603 of the


8 Q Would you turn your attention, please, to 334A,

9 354A, and 354B.

10 A These two photos --

11 Q Yes, first the photos, 354A and B, do you

12 recognize those?

13 A Yes. This is the photo of the watch that I had

14 collected by the side table inside the room, bedroom of room

15 603, that is by the window, and it also has the wirings.

16 Q What about the other photograph that you have in

17 your hand?

18 A This is the same watch in the reverse. The photo

19 is in the reverse.

20 Q Do you know when those photos were taken?

21 A When we took this evidence to the U.S. Embassy

22 office and they processed it.

23 Q Who do you mean by "they," the people that

24 processed the evidence?

25 A The group of the FBI that were there.

2147

1 Q Would you take a look at 334A for identification.

2 Do you recognize that?

3 A Yes, sir.


5 A This is the DBC61 Casio watch that is in the

6 photograph.

7 Q Is the watch in the same condition in the Exhibit

8 334A as it is in the photographs 354A and B?

9 A No, sir, these are in its parts. I believe they

10 opened this.

11 Q Now if you would please take a look at 334B, C

12 and D. Do you recognize those exhibits?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 THE COURT: What is that one? Is that B?

15 THE WITNESS: B.

16 Q Tell us what B is.

17 A Yes, this is the timer that was given to me by

18 Mr. Mandigma that was on top of that small table. And also

19 it contains a wire with a small bulb that I had collected on

20 top of that table with all the other wires.

21 Q Just so we are clear, where was it that you

22 collected those items?

23 A I collected this inside the bedroom of room 603

24 on that table that had a mirror.

25 Q How about 334C for identification? Do you

2148

1 recognize that?

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q What do you recognize that to be?

4 A This is a magazine that I collected inside the

5 bedroom of room 603, and I had put inside the bag.

6 Q Does that magazine, 334C, appear to be in the

7 same condition as it was when you took it to the embassy?

8 A This is in the same condition, with the

9 exceptions that there are certain signatures and initials

10 here as well as a tagging.

11 Q Finally, please take a look at 334D for

12 identification. Do you recognize that exhibit?

13 A The screwdriver, the file and the tweezer, I

14 found this inside the black bag when I was in my office.

15 This particular box of match and this Pentel pen, I had this

16 inside the attache case, but I don't know for some reason

17 how it got mixed up.

18 Q What do you mean by "got mixed up"?

19 A Because when we took this to have them process

20 it, I don't know if this was put back in the attache case or

21 it was put into the black bag.


23

24

25

2149

1 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, at this time the

2 government offers 334, 334A, 354A, 354B, 334B, 334C, and

3 334D, and we would like to show them to counsel.

4 (Pause)

5 THE COURT: Mr. Snell, are you almost finished

6 with this witness?

7 MR. SNELL: Very close, your Honor. I don't

8 think I am going to make it before lunch, though, Judge.

9 THE COURT: You don't think you will make it

10 before lunch?

11 MR. SNELL: Unless we work a little bit late.

12 (Pause)

13 THE COURT: Paul, what do you have in your hands?

14 THE CLERK: 334B, 334A, 354A and B.

15 THE COURT: Any objection to these?

16 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Yes.

17 THE COURT: Which ones?

18 MR. KULCSAR: 234B, and for the present, 334A,

19 your Honor.

20 THE COURT: You don't object to the other two?

21 MR. KULCSAR: No. It would help if we had a date

22 on it.

23 THE COURT: Go ahead, mark them.

24 (Government's Exhibits 354A and 354B received in

25 evidence)

2150

1 (Pause)

2 (Government's Exhibits 334, 334D, and 334C

3 received in evidence)

4 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, would this be a good

5 opportunity to pass the exhibits that have been received to

6 the jury, or should we resolve the issues as to the others

7 first?

8 THE COURT: No, you can pass these first. Go

9 ahead.

10 MR. SNELL: In addition, your Honor, if my memory

11 serves me, I don't believe that the 302 and 351 series were

12 previously passed to the jury, and I would like to do that

13 as well now.


15 (Pause)

16 THE COURT: OK, kids, take your gloves off --

17 sounds like take your gloves off and come out fighting --

18 no. It's lunchtime. I checked, and your lunch is there.

19 (Jury excused)

20 THE COURT: OK, we have four items to discuss.

21 The first one was that affidavit before the judge in the

22 Philippines, which was offered sometime ago before the

23 break. It is 3523H. There was objection. Why?

24 MR. KULCSAR: H, your Honor?

25 THE COURT: Yes, 3523H, an affidavit, apparently

2151

1 in some court in the Philippines.

2 MR. GREENFIELD: One ground, I recall, your

3 Honor, when the witness was asked if he recollected making

4 an affidavit and mentioning the attache case and the

5 affidavit, he said he didn't recollect it, at which point he

6 was shown the affidavit and asked if it refreshed his

7 recollection, and we objected and at that point the

8 government offered it. How does it come in for failure to

9 refresh recollection?

10 THE COURT: How does it come in when you want to

11 use it on the defense case, cross-examination? You object

12 to it one way, you get it both ways. 334B.

13 What you have done is foreclosed a whole chunk of

14 cross-examination. That is perfectly OK by me, but you

15 can't have it both ways.

16 MR. GREENFIELD: That wasn't my objection, your

17 Honor.

18 THE COURT: I didn't say it was.

19 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, are we addressing this

20 3523H objection? The basis of the objection was that the

21 objection was offered obviously as evidence of the contents

22 of it, and it contains a number of hearsay matters.

23 THE COURT: I assume that you will not use it on

24 cross-examination. Maybe I am wrong. Do you want to use it

25 on cross-examination? Maybe they will object, the objection

2152

1 being this is what I offered on direct examination, the

2 defense objected to it at that point, I don't see why they

3 should get it in now, and I can hear it coming.

4 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, Mr. Yousef wishes to

5 withdraw the objection.

6 Mr. Udell, you objected also to that.

7 MR. UDELL: Your Honor, I do not want to play it

8 both ways and I would like to use it on cross-examination,

9 but my objection is a little more basic. We can't read it.

10 THE COURT: I can read my copy.

11 MR. UDELL: If it is being offered as a copy of

12 an original document, we should be able to read it.

13 THE COURT: I can read it. I don't know about

14 you.

15 MR. UDELL: Perhaps I do have some problem. At

16 about the last line where we are going into the second line

17 and the last answer --

18 THE COURT: If it is a question that you can't

19 read a portion of, don't you think that the jury can't read

20 it also?

21 MR. UDELL: That may very well be, but the

22 witness was asked a question in which he was referring to

23 something that is illegible.

24 THE COURT: And it will show that he did not

25 refer to the bag in the affidavit, which is apparently what

2153

1 it was offered for -- I don't care. You want to keep it

2 out, it is out. Make up your mind.

3 MR. UDELL: Perhaps counsel can give us a

4 clarification of a couple of lines on this document before

5 the witness continues with it. That's all.

6 THE COURT: I am sorry, but I don't understand.

7 What do you want?

8 MR. UDELL: I would like to know, if I am missing

9 something -- on the bottom of this document, the last A, it

10 starts with the words "our offices." I can read half the

11 line but I can't read part of the line on the right side of

12 the page.

13 THE COURT: If the one that they are offering is

14 illegible, then it is illegible.

15 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, if I may help, I think

16 the problem is that the original copy is not legible. I

17 have obtained a better copy from Miss Grant which is

18 legible.

19 THE COURT: Whichever one is offered is the one

20 that is offered.

21 302E, a set of four coins, one Philippine, three

22 from the United Arab Emirates. There was an objection

23 taken.

24 MR. KULCSAR: The basis of the objection, your

25 Honor, I want to preserve the issue, to the extent my client

2154

1 wished to do so. The witness testified that he initially

2 found the coin and put a coin in there when he opened the

3 bag and there were additional coins in there that he

4 couldn't account for. Whether that is of significance or

5 not, I didn't have an opportunity to discuss with Mr.

6 Yousef. That was the basis for the objection.

7 THE COURT: All right. Now we are down to 334B

8 for identification. One Casio timer, a battery, and

9 apparently some kind of, I don't know, Christmas light? I

10 guess that is the best way to describe it. Go ahead. What

11 is the objection to this?

12 MR. KULCSAR: There are items in that bag that

13 the witness did not testify to recovering from room 603.

14 THE COURT: No, these three he said he found in

15 room 603.

16 MR. KULCSAR: I think the question was actually

17 posed to him with respect to whether those items were the

18 same as when he went to the embassy, the one item in there

19 in particular -- if we are looking at the same thing, your

20 Honor. Is that the one with the AA and AAA battery in

21 there?

22 THE COURT: There is a battery?

23 MR. KULCSAR: An AA or AAA, and a wire with a

24 light bulb.

25 THE COURT: A wire with a tiny little light bulb

2155

1 and a Casio timer.

2 MR. KULCSAR: Is there also a small battery, not

3 a 9-volt but an AA or an AAA? It may be in another one,

4 your Honor.

5 THE COURT: There is a penlight battery.

6 MR. KULCSAR: That is in there?

7 THE COURT: Yes.

8 The broken apart watch, 334A for identification,

9 he testified he saw it when it was all together. You object

10 to it, I assume because it is now apart and you want to

11 cross-examine the guy who took it apart, is that correct?

12 MR. KULCSAR: I think, if I am not incorrect,

13 your Honor, I think there are actually two watch components

14 in there. May I approach the court?

15 THE COURT: Sure.

16 MR. KULCSAR: No objection on this one, your

17 Honor.

18 Your Honor, I just wanted to have an opportunity

19 to confer with Mr. Yousef on the other. The objection was

20 just made to preserve it.

21 THE COURT: All right, 2:00.

22 (Government's Exhibit 334A and received in

23 evidence)


25

2156


2 2:00 p.m.


4 JOSE L. CRUZ, resumed, through the interpreter.

5 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, before the jury comes in,

6 just so we're clear, on 334B and E I don't know if we got

7 the ruling of the Court.

8 THE COURT: That one is in. What is E?

9 MR. SNELL: E is the coins.

10 THE COURT: The coins are not in. It's a

11 question of relevance of the coins. The only thing it could

12 show is that somebody, who it might have been, was in the

13 United Arab Emirates, and I believe the tiny one was a

14 Filipino coin.

15 MR. SNELL: That's right, your Honor.


17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

2157

1 (Jury present)

2 THE COURT: You want to pass those last two?

3 MR. SNELL: Please, your Honor.

4 (Government Exhibits 334B and 334A received in

5 evidence)

6 (Government Exhibits 334A and B passed to the

7 jury)

8 (Pause)

9 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, may I just approach

10 Mr. Snell to clarify matters?

11 THE COURT: Sure:


13 THE COURT: Yes.

14 DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued)

15 BY MR. SNELL:

16 Q Mr. Cruz, what did you do with the items that you

17 showed to the FBI personnel at the embassy after they were

18 finished looking at them?

19 A After they had looked at it I kept it for

20 safekeeping.

21 Q And where you did you keep them?

22 A In my offices.

23 Q Now, did there come a time when you turned over

24 these items that you've been testifying about and that the

25 jury has just seen again to the FBI?

2158

1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q When was that?

3 A On April 4, 1995 I turned over all the evidence.

4 Q Where did you turn over the evidence?

5 A Yes, sir. I turned it over at the United States

6 Embassy in Manilla to FBI Agents Larry Egan and Frank

7 Pellegrino.

8 Q And just so we're all clear what you're referring

9 to, would you tell us what you mean by the evidence that you

10 turned over?

11 A I am referring to the attache case that I had

12 collected together with its entire contents. I am also

13 referring to the black bag that I had collected and the

14 entire contents, including the watch and the magazine.

15 Q Prior to April 4, 1995, were you interviewed by

16 the FBI?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q And do you recall how many times you were

19 interviewed?

20 A About two or three times.

21 Q Where did those interviews take place?

22 A The first time was at Camp Crame and the second

23 and the third time at the United States Embassy in Manilla.

24 Q What happened during your interviews with the

25 FBI?

2159

1 A Yes. I told them the version with regards to the

2 attache case, the one that's written in my report that the

3 attache case was given to me.

4 Q And was that version true?

5 A No, sir.

6 Q Did there come a time when you gave the FBI a

7 different version with respect to the attache case?



10 A Yes, sir, when I arrived here in New York City.

11 Q During the past year before your arrival in New

12 York City were you asked whether you'd be willing to come to

13 New York to testify?

14 A Yes, sir, I was invited.

15 Q And did anyone instruct you or order you to go?

16 A No, sir, no one ordered or asked me. It is my

17 own personal decision.

18 Q Now, Mr. Cruz, has the United States government

19 paid the air fare that you used to come here to testify?


21 Q And is the United States government paying for

22 your hotel accommodations, providing you with witness fee,

23 and also a meal allowance?


25 Q And is your lost income as a result of your

2160

1 attendance at the trial being compensated for by the United

2 States government?

3 A This is what they told me, sir.

4 Q Also, Mr. Cruz, has the United States government

5 agreed to permit your, certain members of your family to

6 come to the United States during your attendance at the

7 trial?

8 A Yes, sir, that is correct.

9 MR. SNELL: I have nothing further, your Honor.




13 Q Good afternoon, sir. Sir, when did you first

14 learn about the alleged incident in the Josefa building?

15 A In the early morning on January the 7th, sir.

16 Q Approximately what time was that, sir?

17 A Approximately around 2 o'clock in the morning.

18 Q Was that through a telephone call?


20 Q Who was the person who called you?

21 A It was the desk officer from our offices.

22 Q What did you do after you received the call?

23 A I was given the telephone number of the Josefa

24 Apartments and then at that point I called Mr. Ramilo who

25 was at the Josefa.

2161

1 Q And what did you say to Mr. Ramilo, if anything,

2 sir?

3 A I asked him as to what is happening there.

4 Q Did you instruct him to do anything?

5 A I didn't give him any instruction except to tell

6 him that I was on my way.

7 Q What time did you get to the Josefa building?

8 A Approximately around 2:30.

9 Q Who did you meet there when you first arrived?


11 interpreter?

12 Q Who did you meet at the Josefa building when you

13 first arrived there?

14 A Downstairs there was a policeman and I had asked

15 him for instructions. He directed me to go upstairs, and so

16 I did.

17 Q Who you met inside room number 603?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Who was the persons who you met them inside room

20 number 603?

21 A Present there, sir, were Capt. Fariscal,

22 Mr. Ramilo, Mr. Mandigma, and a foreigner that I had

23 identified here today.

24 Q Now, who was the highest rank personnel at that

25 time in room number 603 when you arrived?

2162

1 A When I first arrived it was Capt. Fariscal.

2 Q And who else was there from the explosive

3 ordnance disposal unit?

4 A Mr. Ramilo and Mr. Mandigma.

5 Q And was it your testimony that you were the chief

6 of the explosive ordnance disposal unit team at that time?

7 A That's correct, sir.

8 Q Now, was it your testimony that you saw some

9 chemicals in room number 603?


11 Q Were you ever concerned that there could be a

12 bomb in room number 603 when you first arrived and saw the

13 contents there?

14 A Yes, sir, that was one of my concerns when I

15 arrived there after seeing the chemicals that were there

16 that possibly there might be a bomb.

17 Q Were you concerned that there could be a bomb

18 based on what you allegedly saw or because you were

19 instructed to pretend or to act as if there was a bomb

20 there?

21 A No, sir, it was when I saw the parts and things

22 that could possibly make a bomb that I had that suspicion.

23 Q Well, as the chief of the explosive ordnance

24 disposal team did you ask the building to be evacuated when

25 you thought that there could be a bomb in the building?

2163

1 A No, sir, I didn't ask it could be evacuated, but

2 I did ask them not to touch anything at that time.

3 Q Well, did you ask anyone to call the ambulance to

4 arrive at the building in case a bomb would go off?

5 A No, sir, no one.

6 Q Did you ask anyone to call the firemen in case

7 the bomb would go off there?

8 A The report to me, sir, had included the fact that

9 there was already firemen that had gone there.

10 Q Well, did you do anything which indicates that

11 the alleged bomb threat was a serious threat and not a

12 fabrication, a fabricated story or a play which was played

13 by the Filipino National Police?

14 THE COURT: Yes, that sounds more like argument,

15 Mr. Yousef. Next question.

16 Q Now, sir, was it your testimony that you saw some

17 Casio watches in room number 603?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q How many watches did you allegedly see in room

20 number 603?

21 A Three Casio watches and one Adec watch.

22 Q This was at the first time when you went there?

23 A Yes, sir.

24 Q Was it your testimony that you found an empty

25 attache case in room number 603 when you first went there?

2164

1 A No, sir, it was at that point that I was on my

2 way out that I got this to use it.

3 Q I'm sorry, sir, would you repeat the answer?

4 (Record read)

5 Q Was it your testimony on direct on Thursday that

6 you found an empty attache case in room number 603?

7 A Sir, my testimony on Thursday was that I had

8 collected the things on Thursday that we were going to use,

9 and that particular attache case was available in the

10 bedroom, and that's what I used to store the things that I

11 had collected.

12 Q Was it your testimony that the attache case was

13 empty when you first found it?

14 A Sir, when I first opened it I saw that there were

15 some papers and a plastic in it, but to me it was empty.

16 Q Well, what are the things which you first

17 allegedly see inside the attache case when you first open

18 it?

19 A A plastic bag.

20 Q What else did you see?

21 A I believe that there were some papers there but I

22 didn't pay attention. I just wanted to use this as a

23 container.

24 Q What are the items which you placed in the

25 attache case?

2165

1 A Sir, I used that attache case. I put in there a

2 Casio watch that had a battery snap attached to it. I put

3 also in that attache case two batteries. Also, I had put in

4 that attache case an empty pipe, and folder that was handed

5 to me by Mr. Ramilo that contained some papers. Lastly,

6 like I had mentioned earlier, that on my way out I had put

7 the suspicious device that we had saw by the kitchen in the

8 cabinet.

9 Q Are these the only items that you placed in the

10 attache case at that time?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q What did you do next with the attache case?

13 A Sir, we went downstairs and it was our plan to

14 render the suspicious, to render safe the suspicious device.

15 Q Did you take the attache case when you went to

16 render safe the suspicious device?

17 A Sir, when we came downstairs it was still a

18 little bit dark so the attache case, we went to my office,

19 we deposited the attache case in my office. The suspicious

20 device was left in the vehicle and then we proceeded en

21 route to the reclamation area to render safe the suspicious

22 device.

23 Q Who else went with you to that area, sir?

24 A My personnel, Mr. Ramilo and Mr. Mandigma.

25 Q How did you render safe that device?

2166

1 A Sir, we rendered it safe first of all by locating

2 a spare tire, an empty spare tire. The entire tire then is

3 used. We put the suspicious device within the perimeter of

4 the spare tire, and using a disrupter we tried to take out

5 and we were successful in taking out the end cap of the

6 suspicious device.

7 Q Would you explain what the disrupter is, sir?

8 A Sir, a disrupter would be a thin piece of pipe

9 and this is what you use to open the suspicious device with.

10 What you need to do is use a 12 gauge bullet which is put

11 into this disrupter, and then you point it around the cap of

12 the suspicious device, and what we had used was a material

13 that is made out of steel.

14 Q And who was the person who used that device

15 during the rendering safe?

16 A Sir, it was the three of us assisting each other.

17 The first time that we tried to use the disrupter it did

18 misfire, and then the second time we rearranged it and we

19 were successful the second time that we used the disrupter.

20 Q Now, sir, who was the person who used that device

21 and what did the other persons do exactly regarding the

22 rendering safe that pipe?

23 A Sir, the first time that we tried to defuse the

24 suspicious device I was the person that put the mechanism on

25 an angle using the disrupter, and of course Mr. Ramilo, my

2167

1 company, was the one that was handling the firing line.

2 This is the first time that we tried it and like I said to

3 you earlier, it misfired. The second time it was

4 Mr. Mandigma who tried to position the placement of the

5 disrupter in an angle.

6 Q Now, sir, what did you do next with the contents

7 of that pipe after you opened it?

8 A Sir, after we had done that there was a mixture

9 there that was quite offensive an odor, and it smelled quite

10 badly, but we, realizing that there was no firing device or

11 mechanism in this, we just want to return the contents, the

12 chemical contents, the mixture that we had taken out of this

13 pipe, and returned it inside the pipe. After we had

14 returned that we tried to wrap it up in plastic.

15 Q And what happened next to the pipe after that?

16 A Sir, I brought it back with me to my office and I

17 returned it to the attache case.

18 Q And what did you do with the attache case next?

19 A Sir, at around 8 or 9 in the morning I was asked

20 to bring it over to the offices of the PSG, the Presidential

21 security group of the Malacanang Palace.

22 Q Sir, was it your testimony that at some time the

23 attache case and its contents were videotaped?

24 A Yes, sir, at around 12 noon when I was told to

25 retrieve it, before it was turned over back to me videotape

2168

1 and pictures were taken of the attache case and its contents

2 and this happened at the offices of the PSG at the

3 Malacanang before I was going to collect the attache case.

4 Q Who was the person, if you know, who videotaped

5 the contents of the attache case?

6 A Sir, I don't know this particular person.

7 Possibly a personnel of Col. Ferrer.

8 Q Do you know where that tape is, sir?

9 A No, I don't know, sir.

10 Q Now, sir, what did you do next in the afternoon

11 after 12 o'clock when the attache case was videotaped?

12 A Sir, it was returned to me. I brought it over to

13 my offices and I had it for safekeeping.

14 Q Now, was there a time in which you went to see a

15 judge pertaining to that incident in the Josefa building?

16 A That's correct, sir.

17 Q What time was it approximately when you went to

18 see the judge, sir?

19 A It was approximately around 3 o'clock.

20 Q And who else went there with you?

21 A My superior, Major Angeles.

22 Q Was he the only person who went with you to the

23 Judge?

24 A Sir, there were, there was also Lt. Tizon from

25 precinct number 9, and there were some other people from the

2169

1 investigation division I don't know.

2 Q Now, sir, did you make an affidavit under oath in

3 front of the judge?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q Is it the same type of oath under which you are

6 testifying here today?

7 A The one that was shown to me?

8 Q I'm sorry, sir?

9 THE COURT: The answer was, "The one that was

10 shown to me?" Question mark, I believe. But ask your

11 question again.

12 Q Now, sir, did you tell the judge about the place

13 where the attache case was found?

14 A Sir, I don't remember all the questions that was

15 asked of me by the judge, but I remember that I said to him

16 that this attache case was turned over to me.

17 Q So basically you did not tell the truth to the

18 Judge, am I correct, sir?

19 A Yes, I did, sir, that portion, part as to how I

20 was able to collect the attache case.

21 Q So is it fair to say that you lied under oath at

22 that time?

23 A Yes, sir, that portion as to how I came about the

24 attache case was not the right version, but I told him about

25 everything that I saw inside that room, and that was correct

2170

1 and right.

2 Q Was there anything that has prevented you from

3 telling him the truth under oath concerning that portion?

4 A Sir, I just followed through the instructions

5 that were given to me, and I was very much confused also

6 around that time.

7 Q Did you tell the judge that you were instructed

8 to lie?

9 A Could you repeat your question?

10 Q Did you tell the judge at that time that you were

11 instructed to lie concerning that portion?

12 A No, sir, he did not ask me that question.

13 Majority of his questions were referring to the things that

14 I saw inside that room, and I told him the truth about that.

15 Q Were you -- sir, you said that you were confused.

16 Were you confused in telling the difference between the

17 truth and the lying?

18 A Sir, that particular incident it was quite a

19 confusing time for me. I had just followed through the

20 instructions that were given to me. We were all confused.

21 The Pope was arriving at that time. There were major

22 security concerns with regard to his arrival, and that was

23 my instructions, and I followed the security matters that I

24 am referring to.


2171

1 Court to have that answer stricken and to have the witness

2 respond to my question?

3 THE COURT: Yes. The part about the Pope, all of

4 that comes out, ladies and gentlemen. Just take it out.

5 The rest of it can stand. Ask the question again if you

6 want.

7 Q Sir, at the time when you went to meet with the

8 judge did you know the difference between the truth and a

9 lie?

10 A Yes, I do, sir.

11 Q And what you told the judge was a lie under oath,



14 THE COURT: What you told the judge was a lie

15 something, but I couldn't --

16 MR. SNELL: Under oath.

17 THE COURT: Under oath. I'll permit that.

18 A Yes, sir, that portion where, how I came into the

19 possession of the attache case, but the remainder of it was

20 the truth.

21 Q Sir, when did you receive -- when did you first

22 receive instruction to lie concerning that portion about the

23 attache case?

24 A That morning when I was having a talk at a

25 meeting with the major, he told me this.

2172

1 Q What time was it approximately, sir?

2 A Before noon time.

3 Q Now, sir, I'd like to direct your attention again

4 to the time when you went, when you first went to the Josefa

5 building and you met with the security guard. When you

6 first met with him did he brief you as to the nature of the

7 incident in room number 603?

8 A I didn't talk to any security guard.

9 Q Now, when you went to room number 603 the first

10 time, did you inspect the room from inside?

11 A Yes, sir.

12 Q After you inspected the room and prior to going

13 to the Judge, based on what you saw in room number 603, what

14 was your understanding as to the nature of the incident

15 which allegedly occurred in room number 603?


17 THE COURT: I'll let it go. Go ahead.

18 A Yes, sir. I based my observation on the report

19 that was given to us when they called our offices to report

20 that there had been a explosion or a fire in this particular

21 location.

22 Q Sir, based on what you saw in room number 603

23 after you went there, did you see any sign of an explosion,

24 any fragments, any damage that could have been caused by an

25 explosion?

2173

1 A Yes, sir, there were some burn mark by the

2 kitchen area as well as in the floor area.


4 (Record read)

5 Q Did that indicate to you that there were signs of

6 an explosion?

7 A No, sir, I can not tell you that. I was not

8 there when it happened.

9 Q Did anyone tell you that there was an explosion

10 in room number 603?

11 A That was the initial report that was placed in

12 our office.

13 Q Sir, was that your understanding after you saw

14 the marks in room number 603?



17 A Those burn marks that were on the floor in the

18 kitchen area I believe, I believe that there were some kind

19 of a fire that occurred.

20 Q Sir, as an experienced explosive personnel did

21 you come to a conclusion that these marks could have been

22 caused by an explosion?

23 A That is possible, sir.

24 Q Now, sir, when you went to see the judge

25 concerning the search warrant did you tell him the nature of

2174

1 the incident which occurred, which allegedly occurred in

2 room number 603?

3 A I don't remember if I was asked that question,

4 sir.

5 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, could I ask the

6 witness to be shown 3523H?

7 THE COURT: Sure.


9 Q Now, sir, isn't it a fact that you told the Court

10 that there was an explosion which occurred in room number

11 603 at 12:50 a.m.?

12 A Yes, this reflects initial report that was

13 reported to us.

14 Q But when you met with the judge you'd already

15 been in room number 603 and noticed the condition of room

16 number 603, am I correct, sir?


18 Q Now, sir, what time did you finish the meeting

19 with the judge?

20 A Probably around past 4 o'clock.

21 Q Sir, was it your testimony that on January 7th

22 you prepared a report pertaining to that incident?

23 A Yes, sir.

24 Q When did you prepare that report, sir?


2175


2 Q When did you prepare that report?

3 A Around in the morning before noon I finished it.

4 Q Was that after you went for the first time in

5 room number 603 and you took out the attache case?

6 A Yes, sir, while it was at the Malacanang Palace I

7 was preparing my report.

8 Q Now, sir, was it your testimony on direct on

9 Thursday that you put a Casio watch and some other items in

10 the attache case because you wanted to show them to the

11 Judge?

12 A That was our intention, sir.

13 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, correction.

14 That is my intention, sir.

15 Q Did you include that in your report that you took

16 the attache case in order to show it to the judge?

17 A No, sir.

18 Q Now, in the report which you prepared on January

19 7th did you list down where you found the attache case?

20 A No, sir.

21 Q Did you mention in your report where you first

22 saw the attache case?


24 interpreter?

25 Q Did you write down in your report where you first

2176

1 saw the attache case?

2 A Yes. I showed you the first time that I had made

3 a mistake in making my report with regards to how I was able

4 to collect the attache case.

5 Q Was that a mistake or were you instructed by

6 Major Angeles to include it in your report?

7 A These were the instructions that I knew that were

8 wrong.

9 Q Now, sir, did you mention in your report who was

10 the person who first found the attache case?

11 A Could I look at the report?

12 Q Sure.


14 witness have 3523B.


16 A Yes, that portion as to how I got the attache

17 case, this attache case was given to me by someone from

18 precinct number 9.

19 Q So is it your testimony that this second portion

20 also is not correct?

21 A Which second portion are you talking about?

22 Q The portion concerning the person who found the

23 attache case?

24 A Yes, that portion of my report is not correct.

25 Q Now, did you include in your report, did you

2177

1 mention that you were the person who put the items inside

2 the attache case?

3 A Yes, sir, this version of the report was wrong.

4 My version is I was the person who put the things into the

5 attache case.

6 Q And does the report mention that you found the

7 attache case when you first found it was empty?

8 A No, sir. What the truth is, is I was the person

9 that collected and put the things in the attache case.


11 (Record read)

12 Q And does the report mention the truth concerning

13 that part?

14 A No, sir, that particular portion is not right.

15 Q Now, was it your testimony today that the only

16 items which you put in the attache case were a pipe, an

17 empty pipe, and the suspicious device, a Casio watch, and a

18 folder?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Now, did you include in your report some other

21 items which you did not put in that attache case?

22 A Yes, sir. There were things that I found later

23 on that had nothing to do with the making of the bomb that I

24 had put in there.

25 Q Did you include in your report items which you

2178

1 did not personally put inside the bag?

2 A Yes, sir, the coins and the condoms.


4 again to the rendering safe procedure of the alleged pipe

5 bomb. Would you explain, sir, the disrupter which you

6 mentioned, could you tell us, please, if the description of

7 the size of that, of the device which was used to render

8 safe the pipe?

9 A Yes, sir. That instrument is a stainless steel

10 tube which is probably about 14 to 12 inches long and at the

11 end of it is a screw mechanism where then you could attach

12 the 12 gauge shot bullet that you could put.


14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

2179

1 Q Does it fire a bullet, sir?

2 A Yes, sir. The cartridge of the shot, what we do

3 is, we put some black powder into it and that is then

4 attached to an igniter, and that is where you do the firing

5 line.


7

8

9

10

11

12

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16

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18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

2180

1 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, is this the right

2 time for a break now?

3 THE COURT: Sure. All right, ladies and

4 gentlemen.

5 (Jury excused)


7 THE COURT: Mr. Yousef, do you have any idea how

8 long you will be with Cruz?

9 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: The rest of the afternoon,

10 sir.

11 THE COURT: OK. Who is going to do the cross?

12 Mr. Udell?

13 MR. UDELL: Couple of hours, your Honor.

14 THE COURT: Couple of hours.

15 MR. GREENFIELD: I will be a lot shorter than I

16 thought, your Honor.

17 THE COURT: All right, take 10.

18 (Recess)

19 (Witness resumed; jury present)



22

23

24

25

2181


2 Q Now, sir, isn't it a fact that according to the

3 Philippine Constitution it is a crime to falsify a report?

4 A What do you mean, in our Constitution?

5 Q Yes, sir.

6 A I am not aware of any provisions like that, sir.

7 Q I am sorry, sir.

8 THE COURT: The answer was, "I am not aware of

9 any provisions like that, sir."

10 Q Now, sir, is it your understanding that according

11 to the Constitution of the Philippines you are allowed to

12 falsify a report?

13 A I don't believe that that is contained in our

14 Constitution, but there is such a law.

15 Q You mean, there is a law which permits a person

16 to falsify a report?

17 A No, sir, there isn't.

18 Q So, isn't it a fact that it is a crime, according

19 to the Constitution of the Philippines, to falsify a report?


21 THE COURT: Take out the word "Constitution,"

22 and redo it.

23 Q Isn't it a fact that in the Philippines it is

24 regarded as a crime to falsify a report?

25 A What do you mean by that, sir?

2182

1 A When you write down a report as a police officer,

2 explaining the events which allegedly took place, and you

3 falsify the report, is that considered as a crime in the

4 Philippines?

5 A Yes, sir, you are correct.

6 Q So would it be fair to say that you were

7 instructed by your superior to commit a crime?

8 A Sir, it is not exactly the way I would put it,

9 but yes, you are right that it is a crime. But under the

10 circumstances at that time, when I was instructed to do

11 that, we were under a very extreme circumstances and I was

12 under pressure, and I had to follow through what I was asked

13 to do.

14 Q Are there some exceptional circumstances under

15 which you can lie or falsify a report in the Philippines?

16 A Sir, I did not say that, sir. What I am trying

17 to tell you is, this particular situation was a very trying

18 circumstance for us. Our national security was at threat,

19 and at that time the Pope was coming to visit and we had to

20 make secure that his visit was safe and it was done the way

21 it should be.

22 Q Is it your testimony that under such

23 circumstances you are permitted to commit a crime?

24 A No, sir, I didn't say that we are permitted to do

25 that.

2183

1 Q And those same circumstances would allow you to

2 falsify evidence, is that correct, sir?

3 A Sir, I did falsify the statement to the facts as

4 to how I had collected that particular attache case, but

5 with regards to the other evidence and the things that were

6 collected, that was collected in apartment 603, that is the

7 truth.


9 answer to be stricken and the question to be repeated,

10 please?

11 THE COURT: No, it is an answer.

12 Q Now, sir, there was a part of your report which

13 you falsified, am I correct, sir?

14 A Yes, sir, you are correct, that portion where I

15 had written the way how I came about this particular attache

16 case is indeed wrong and a lie, but with regards to the

17 contents of what I had collected inside apartment 603, that

18 is the truth. Everything that was inside that attache case

19 I had collected just the way as I have described it, inside

20 apartment 603 at that time.

21 Q Is it your testimony, sir, that this part which

22 was not true was written down according to, due to the

23 exceptional circumstances?


25 Q So according to those exceptional circumstances,

2184

1 you would also be permitted to commit other crimes or

2 falsify or fabricate the evidence, would that be a fair

3 statement, sir?


5 THE COURT: No.

6 A Sir, I did not fabricate any evidence. All the

7 things that were contained in that attache case were

8 collected from apartment 603. That portion in my report

9 where I mentioned as to how I came about that attache case

10 was falsified. It was wrong and I admit to that.

11 Q Is it your testimony that this is the only

12 portion which is not true?

13 A Yes, sir. When I prepared that report, that

14 portion that I had mentioned to you, that portion where I

15 described how I came about the attache case, that was

16 falsified and I was wrong.

17 Q Sir, the other portion concerning the items which

18 were inside the attache case, does the report tell the truth

19 also? Does the report say that you are the person who put

20 these items inside the attache case?

21 A Sir, I just mentioned in my report the things

22 that were put inside the attache case, and I was the person

23 that put it in there.

24 Q Does your report reflect that you are the person

25 who put these items in the attache case?

2185

1 A No, sir. My report says that the contents were

2 turned over to me, but the truth of the matter is, I was the

3 one that put the things inside the attache case.

4 Q Does the report reflect that you were the one who

5 put these items inside the attache case?

6 A No, sir, and that is why I am telling you the

7 truth today, that I was the person that put the things

8 inside the attache case.

9 Q Does the report say that you found the attache

10 case empty?

11 A Sir, I did not mention that in my report because

12 of the fact that my intention to use the attache case was as

13 a container.

14 Q Is that reflected in your report?

15 A No, sir, it is not.

16 Q Now, sir, was there a time on January 7 of 1995

17 that -- withdrawn.

18 Sir, on January 7, 1995, were you the superior of

19 Mr. Ramilo?


21 Q And according to the procedures in the explosive

22 ordinance disposal unit, when Mr. Ramilo writes the report,

23 does he turn the report over to you?

24 A Sir, at that time he was the one that was

25 supposed to make the report, but since I was present at the

2186

1 office that day, I told him that I would be the one to

2 prepare the report.

3 Q Sir, did you instruct Mr. Ramilo to falsify his

4 report on January 7, 1995?

5 A Sir, I told him about the instructions that I

6 received with regards to preparing a report, but I told him,

7 and I didn't ask him to prepare a report.

8 Q Did you give him a list of the items and instruct

9 him to include them in his report?

10 A Sir, at that time that we were doing the

11 inventory, he was in front of me, and he knows that I was

12 going to prepare a report. Whether he had a copy of my

13 report and that's what he based his report on, I don't know.

14 Q Sir, my question is, did you give Mr. Ramilo a

15 list of items and ask him to include these items in his

16 report as the items which were allegedly found in the

17 attache case?

18 A I don't know, sir. All I remember is, I told him

19 that he should not prepare a report, that I was going to be

20 the one to prepare a report.

21 Q Sir, was it your testimony today that when the

22 alleged pipe bomb was opened, it didn't contain any alleged

23 timing device or timing mechanism?


25 Q Sir, did you give Mr. Ramilo a list of items

2187

1 which were allegedly found inside this pipe bomb and ask him

2 to include these items in his report as items being found

3 inside that pipe?

4 A Sir, I did not give him a list of anything. He

5 was there and he was present at the time that we were going

6 to take care of the suspicious device.

7 Q So if Mr. Ramilo would say that you gave him a

8 list, he would be not telling the truth?

9 A I cannot tell you that, sir. I know that I have

10 a copy of my report in my office. Whether he has access to

11 it, I don't know.

12 Q As the superior of Mr. Ramilo, did there come a

13 time at all when you saw a report which was prepared by

14 Mr. Ramilo?

15 A He told me that he was going to prepare a report.

16 My response to him at that time was that it was not

17 necessary for him to prepare a report, that I would do it.

18 Q Did you give him any specific instructions as how

19 to prepare a report? Would you answer the question by yes

20 or no, sir.

21 A No, I don't remember, sir. I told him that he

22 should not prepare a report.

23 Q Now, sir, did you give him a list of items?

24 A Sir, what I can tell you is at that time that we

25 were doing the inventory, Mr. Ramilo was present there.

2188

1 Whether he was preparing his own list at that time that we

2 were doing the inventory, I cannot tell you that.

3 Q Now, sir, did you give him a list to include it

4 in his report? Yes or no.

5 A As I have said to you, sir, I told him that he

6 should not prepare a prepare a report. Whether he has a

7 copy of my report at that time, I don't know.


9 court to help me to have the witness respond?

10 THE COURT: Sure.

11 Did you give Mr. Ramilo a list of the items found

12 in the suspicious device?

13 THE WITNESS: I don't remember.

14 Q Now, sir, as the superior of Mr. Ramilo, did

15 Mr. Ramilo tell you at all that he was interviewed by the

16 FBI?

17 A Could you repeat that.

18 Q Did Mr. Ramilo ever ask or seek your permission

19 before meeting with the FBI?

20 A No.

21 Q Now, sir, was there a time on January 8 of 1995,

22 when you prepared a report relating to the alleged incident

23 at room number 603 of the Josefa building?

24 A January 7, are you saying?

25 Q January 8, 1995.

2189

1 A Yes, you are correct.

2 Q Now, sir, did you mention in that report that you

3 placed some items in the attache case, Casio watches and

4 other items, in order to show them to the judge?

5 A Which report are we talking about? January 7 or

6 January 8?

7 Q The one that was prepared on January 8 of 1995.

8 A That was turned over only to my superior, Major

9 Angeles.

10 Q Sir, my question is, did you mention in that

11 report that you placed some items in the attache case in

12 order to show them to the judge?

13 A I don't know. I was not the person that made the

14 return of the warrant. It was my superior Major Angeles, so

15 I can't tell you.

16 Q I am sorry, sir. Did you say you did not prepare

17 the report?

18 A What I am saying is, I submitted my report to

19 Major Angeles.

20 Q The report that you submitted to Major Angeles,

21 did you mention in that report that the items which you say

22 you put them in the attache case, you put them in the

23 attache case in order to show them to the judge?

24 A Yes. That particular report there, sir, on

25 January 8 did not mention that. What it mentions is the

2190

1 incident that happened after we had served the warrant. It

2 also included the things that I had collected from the

3 apartment 603 at that time.

4 Q Is there any report at all which you prepared

5 that mentions that the items which you allegedly placed in

6 the attache case were placed for showing them to the judge?

7 A There was no report, sir, but I showed it to the

8 judge.

9 Q Sir, I would like to direct your attention to the

10 search process of room number 603. What time did the search

11 start, sir?

12 A At around 5:30 in the afternoon of January 7.

13 Q Who were the other personnel of the explosive

14 ordinance disposal unit who were in room number 603 during

15 the search?

16 A Yes. From my particular unit, sir, it was

17 Mr. Ramilo, Mr. Mandigma, Mr. Capacete, and Mr. Gomez.

18 Q Were you the superior of all those individuals,

19 sir?

20 A These four persons, sir, yes.

21 Q Were you you the person who assigned them to

22 their task in room number 603?

23 A Could you repeat, please.

24 Q Were you the person who assigned them specific

25 duties to carry out in room number 603?

2191

1 A Yes, sir, I gave them the assignments.

2 Q What did you assign Mr. Gomez to?

3 A Particularly for Mr. Gomez, I had assigned him to

4 do the writing of the inventory as well as the marking of

5 the inventory.

6 Q Did you give him any instructions regarding the

7 items which he should include in the inventory?

8 A Everything that was inside the room, we went

9 through it one by one. As we went through it he was listing

10 it, and as he is listing it he is marking it with a tape.

11 Q Did you verify his inventory which he prepared,

12 sir?

13 A Yes, I saw it at that time that he was making it,

14 as we were doing the inventory. This eventually was given

15 and submitted to Major Angeles.

16 Q So is it your testimony that while you were

17 verifying the contents of room number 603 one by one,

18 Mr. Gomez was writing them down?

19 A Yes, sir. Yes, it was I that was sort of just

20 like supervising, when it was really Mr. Ramilo and

21 Mr. Mandigma who was assisting Mr. Gomez at that time. You

22 know, they would go to the items that were present inside

23 the room and say they had found some sulfuric acid, they

24 would make a notation, there was four gallons of sulfuric

25 acid, and that's the way it went.

2192

1 Q Sir, was there a person in room number 603 who

2 was taking photographs, still photographs?

3 A Yes. During the search there was a person taking

4 photographs.

5 Q Do you know who that person was?

6 A This person was summoned by Major Angeles, and so

7 I did not know this person.

8 Q Do you know from which department of the

9 Philippine National Police he was?

10 A Major Angeles explained to me that he was the

11 official photographer.

12 Q I am sorry, sir.

13 THE COURT: Do you want to repeat it, Martha,

14 please.

15 (Record read)

16 Q Did you know his name at that time?

17 A I forgot, sir.

18 Q Is there a photographic section of the Philippine

19 National Police?

20 A In our western police district, yes, there is.

21 Q Do you know if they have a video camera in the

22 photography section?

23 A I don't know, sir.

24 Q Now, sir, did you assign Mr. Capacete to

25 videotape inside of room number 603?

2193

1 A Actually, it was Major Angeles that assigned that

2 to him, but since I was present at that time that he was

3 there, I reiterated the instructions that since he had the

4 video he was the person to take the videotape.

5 Q Do you know when first Mr. Capacete was

6 instructed to videotape the contents of room number 603?

7 A I don't know. When I arrived there, he had the

8 video with him.

9 Q Did you have any meeting or conference with

10 Mr. Capacete on January 7, 1995, prior to the search of room

11 number 603?

12 A Yes, before we headed to that location, we had a

13 briefing.

14 Q What time was that, sir?

15 A That afternoon before we left our offices.

16 Q During that meeting, did you discuss with

17 Mr. Capacete as to what he supposed to do when you go to

18 room number 603?

19 A Yes. I told him that he was the one that was

20 going to take the videotape, because he is the one that has

21 a video camera.

22 Q And do you know where he brought the video camera

23 from?

24 A I don't know where it came from. I think that it

25 is his own personal video.

2194

1 Q Now, sir, was it your testimony also that during

2 the search of room number 603 there was a fingerprint expert

3 there?


5 Q Now, sir, do you know if there was a report

6 prepared based on the lifting of fingerprints done in room

7 number 603?

8 A I don't know, sir, if he had prepared a report.

9 Q Now, sir, was it your testimony that at sometime

10 you took a black bag or Concord bag, and you placed some

11 items inside it?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q When did this happen?

14 A Which are we talking about?

15 Q When did you place these items in the Concord bag

16 and took it out of room number 603?

17 A That was during the serving of the warrant that

18 evening.

19 Q What time was it, approximately, sir?

20 A I cannot tell you exactly, sir. I can tell you

21 as the warrant was served and it happened starting at 5:30

22 and we completed at 10:00. So around those times that is

23 when I did that.

24 Q Did you take the bag out of room number 603 after

25 the search was ended?

2195

1 A Yes, sir.

2 Q So would it be fair to say that the black bag and

3 the contents which you placed inside the bag were in room

4 number 603 during the search, from 5:30 until 9:30 or 10:00

5 p.m.?

6 A During the serving of the warrants, these were

7 the things that I had in my possession that I had put in the

8 bag.

9 Q Now, sir, in the report which you prepared on

10 January 8 of 1995, did you mention anything about this black

11 bag or the Concord bag and the alleged items that you placed

12 inside this bag?

13 A Yes, sir.

14 Q Did you mention the name of Concord bag in your

15 report which you prepared on January 8?

16 A I don't remember. I would like to look at that

17 report.

18 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, may I have the

19 witness be shown Exhibit 523A?

20 THE COURT: Sure.

21 Q Second page, last paragraph.

22 A I did not mention it specifically in this report

23 because I had just used it as a container for the things I

24 collected.

25 Q Did you mention in this report that you used a

2196

1 container?

2 A No, sir, I did not.

3 Q Now, sir, did you mention anything in this report

4 about the magazine which you allegedly also put in that bag?

5 A No, sir, I did not, because that wasn't a part of

6 the bomb-making process.


8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

2197

1 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, may we continue

2 tomorrow? I have a new area to go to.

3 THE COURT: All right, ladies and gentlemen. See

4 you tomorrow morning.

5 (Jury excused)

6 (Witness excused)

7 MR. GREENFIELD: Should I save my application for

8 tomorrow?

9 THE COURT: You might as well make it.

10 MR. GREENFIELD: It is the same one. Do you want

11 me to be specific?

12 THE COURT: No.

13 MR. GREENFIELD: I think one area should be

14 covered. I think four or five times it was put in the

15 record adds to confusion, being national security, Pope, and

16 that it was repeated four or five times. Consistent with

17 that, I think the answer is apparently for the first

18 question but it is antagonistic to my defense. It is

19 harmful to my client's case. I move for a mistrial.

20 THE COURT: The answer is no.

21 The unfortunate part is, a million years ago --

22 not really -- about 1914, a guy by the name of Francis X.

23 Wellman wrote a book called The Art of Cross-examination, in

24 which he lauds a cross-examination which marched through

25 direct examination all over again, and then did it a third

2198

1 time, and so on and so forth. It is the worst example of

2 drivel I have ever read. It is the most dangerous thing in

3 the world to do. But Wellman's book is still making money

4 for his heirs, and so on and so forth. I would, however,

5 point out, it was called The Art of Cross-examination. The

6 reason that cross-examination is an art is because you have

7 to know when to stop.

8 Mr. Yousef can't really be blamed, but believe it

9 or not, I know at this point that most likely you are

10 thinking about being your own lawyer in the next trial. I

11 think an experienced cross-examiner would have stopped in a

12 couple of places. The trick is to get an admission and then

13 stop, because if you continue on you get not the admission,

14 you get the explanation, which is not what you really want,

15 at least on cross-examination.

16 Tomorrow, 10:00.

17 (Proceedings adjourned until 10:00 a.m., Tuesday,

18 July 16, 1996)

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

2200




22 ALSO PRESENT: Lillie Grant, Paralegal, U.S. Attorney's Office 23 INTERPRETERS: AZIZ ISMAIL, HASSAM MOWAD, CHRIS MASAOAY

24

25

2201


2 THE COURT: We'll wait for Mr. Kulcsar.

3 (Pause)

4 THE COURT: We started this case on the 13th day

5 of May. Opening statements were on the 29th day of May.

6 The first witnesses were on the 30th of May. I was told by

7 the government that this case would take eight weeks. On

8 the basis of the government always underestimating I

9 suggested to the jury it will take 12.

10 Since May 30th we've had now our seventh week. I

11 can't believe that the government expects to finish with

12 their part of it by next Friday. There are a lot of reasons

13 why. A lot of it lies strictly with the government, but

14 that's neither here nor there.

15 The jury has started to ask, what's going on?

16 Are we going to stay here forever? And it seems like we

17 are. Terrible.

18 We're going to start at 9:30 every morning and

19 while I know I look for Fridays to take care of the rest of

20 my calendar, and, I assume you guys do, too, you're not

21 going to have Fridays any more, and neither am I. I will be

22 sentencing people at night and taking care of things at

23 night. I assume you will have to do the same thing.

24 Tomorrow morning we start at 9:30. Now, the jury

25 may run into problems with Fridays, and since I had made a

2202

1 contract with them I intend to go along with the contract,

2 but only until the first Friday in August. After that, it's

3 all downhill, because after the first Friday in August no

4 matter how you count it, we're running out of weeks. At the

5 rate it's going now I suspect that we will be here for at

6 least Halloween; if not Halloween, maybe Thanksgiving.

7 MR. GREENFIELD: That's this year.

8 THE COURT: I have no idea. Some people will say

9 or attempt to say this is all because we have a person

10 representing himself. That's wrong. Much of it is because

11 of poor planning and poor preparation. That's neither here

12 nor there. We're stuck in the situation we're stuck in. So

13 don't look for breaks on time. I can't give it to you.

14 It's just out of control at this point. Bring in the

15 witness, continue the trial. You think I'm fooling about

16 that, I told you I'm not. It's over in November.

17 MR. GREENFIELD: As a matter of fact, your Honor,

18 if I might, at an appropriate time today or tomorrow, I'd

19 like to speak to the Court with respect to another case I

20 have in October.

21 THE COURT: Sure. You want to count how many

22 witnesses we have on? My count, this is 26. There are over

23 50 witnesses. Instead of eight weeks, it's more like 18, 20

24 weeks. The big witnesses are yet to come. Then we'll have

25 defense case on top of that.

2203

1 JOSE L. CRUZ, resumed, through the interpreter.

2 (Jury present)

3 THE COURT: Good morning, folks. Okay. We're

4 still here with Joseph L. Cruz. Cross-examination, Mr.

5 Yousef.

6 CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued)



9 A Good morning as well, sir.

10 Q Sir, I would like to direct your attention to

11 January 7, 1995, when you first entered room number 603 at

12 around 2:30 a.m.

13 Now, sir, was it your testimony that you took an

14 attache case with some items inside it out of room 603 at

15 that time?

16 A Sir, that time would have to be around 4 o'clock

17 early in that morning as we were getting ready to leave when

18 I collected the things that I needed to get and put it in

19 the attache case.

20 Q Now, when you left the room who else was left

21 behind from the Filipino National Police personnel?

22 A There were a lot of personnel and officers there,

23 sir.

24 Q Do you recall their names?

25 A Before I left to go downstairs present there

2204

1 still was Gen. Canson, Gen. Ebdane and Major Bautista.

2 Q Were they the only individuals who were left

3 behind in room number 603 when you left it?

4 A Sir, in addition to them there were other

5 personnel there from other police station, and there were

6 other people there.

7 Q Do you recall their names, sir?

8 A Majority of those people I don't know, sir.


10 now to January 8, 1995, when you prepared a second report.

11 Now, sir, prior to that, I would like to ask you

12 about the Concorde bag, the black bag which you testified

13 that you took out from room number 603 after the search.

14 Would you tell us what was the reason why you took that bag

15 out of room number 603?

16 A I used it as a container for the things that I

17 collected.

18 Q Now, sir, what was the reason for taking out the

19 items which you placed in the Concorde bag?

20 A Sir, in particular I wanted to study the firing

21 system of this particular watch that I took because it only

22 had one battery snap.

23 Q Now, sir, now I'd like to direct your attention

24 to the report that you prepared on January 8th. In that

25 report did you mention the events regarding the attache case

2205

1 and where it was found?

2 A Yes, the first portion of this contains that.

3 Q And did you write down the truth in that second

4 report?



7 Q Sir, was this a second report which contained to

8 the incident which you wrote?

9 A This has to do with the service of the warrant,

10 sir.

11 Q Was this a second report which you wrote down

12 concerning the events which allegedly took place in room

13 number 603?

14 A Yes, sir.

15 Q Now, in this second report did you tell the truth

16 about where the attache case was found?

17 A With regard to how he came about the attache case

18 I did not say the truth.

19 Q And did you tell the truth with regard to how the

20 items came into the attache case?

21 A That is not mentioned in the report, sir.

22 Q Now, sir, do you recall being interviewed by the

23 FBI?

24 A Yes, sir.

25 Q And do you recall when was the first time in

2206

1 which you were interviewed by the FBI in the Philippines?

2 A The actual interview occurred at Camp Crame.

3 Q And when was that, sir?

4 A Perhaps it was about three or four weeks after.

5 Q Now, in that interview did you tell them the

6 truth about the attache case and the place where it was

7 found?

8 A With regards to how I came about the attache case

9 I continued on with the story that I had written on my

10 report which was a false story, and the reason why I did

11 that was I thought that it would be much easier for me.

12 Q Did anyone instruct you to lie at them at this

13 time?

14 A No, sir, no one did and I take responsibility for

15 that.

16 Q So it was easier for you to continue a lie rather

17 than to tell the truth?

18 A Yes, sir, pertaining to how I came about the

19 attache case it was wrong, and it was a lie, but with

20 regards to the things that I collected inside the room it is

21 the truth, that is where I collected it, and those are the

22 items that I got there.

23 Q Is it your testimony that no one instructed you

24 or pressured you to lie at the FBI?

25 A No, sir.

2207

1 Q Was it your testimony yesterday that the reason

2 for falsifying the report was due to the exceptional

3 circumstances?

4 A Yes, sir, pertaining to that incident on January

5 the 7th.

6 Q And is it your testimony now that there was no

7 reason for you to lie but you just chose to lie?

8 A Sir, the situation on January the 7th was

9 entirely a different situation. Those were troubled times.

10 Those were concerning national crisis in my country, and

11 today I find myself in a completely different situation and

12 I am free to tell you what is the truth.


14 Court the answer to be stricken and the question to be read

15 back?

16 THE COURT: Well, unfortunately you've had the

17 answer given now about three times. I'll strike it this

18 time, but you've also had the question at least three times,

19 too. Next.

20 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, may the Court note I

21 have an application later?

22 THE COURT: Yes.

23 Q Now, sir --

24 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, that last

25 answer, forget about it.

2208

1 Go ahead.

2 Q Now, sir, do you recall telling the FBI that you

3 observed a large cooking pot in room number 603?

4 A I did see one, sir, but I don't remember if I

5 told that to the FBI.

6 Q Will you describe how that looked like?

7 A Sir, that would be a large cooking pot, stainless

8 steel, which had some burn marks and it was around the

9 kitchen area where I saw that. Actually I need to correct

10 myself. I don't know if that is a stainless steel pot.

11 That may be an aluminium pot.

12 Q Would you describe if any marks was in that

13 cooking pot?

14 A There were some burn stains in the pot itself and

15 also around the kitchen area.

16 Q And were the burn marks obvious on the pot

17 itself?

18 A Yes, on the side, sir, you can see the markings.

19 Q Now, sir, when you were interviewed by the FBI on

20 February of 1995, did you tell them anything about the black

21 Concorde bag checking it out, taking it out of room 603 and

22 placing some items in it?

23 A It is possible that I mentioned it to them but I

24 can not remember everything that I told them at this time.

25 Q Did you tell them anything about taking out a

2209

1 magazine?

2 A During the interview I don't know if I had

3 mentioned that to them or not, but during the processing of

4 the evidences at the United States Embassy in Manilla I

5 presented them everything that I had, including the

6 magazine.

7 Q Now, sir, did you tell them that the reason you

8 placed some items in the attache case was to show it to the

9 judge?

10 A I don't remember, sir, if I mentioned that to the

11 FBI.

12 Q Now, sir, are you aware of an explosion which

13 occurred aboard the Philippine Airline on December, 1994?

14 A Yes, sir, that was in the papers all of the

15 papers in the Philippines.

16 Q Did you participate in any way in the

17 investigation that was going on for that case?


19 Q Were you ever asked to help the investigators in

20 the investigation which was going on pertaining to that

21 incident with the Philippine Airlines?

22 A Mr. Calvin Walbert approached me.


24 A Mr. Calvin Walbert of the FAA approached me.

25 Q And what did they tell you -- withdrawn.

2210

1 THE COURT: Do you want that?

2 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: No, your Honor.

3 THE COURT: Okay, I didn't think so. All right.

4 Q Did they approach you regarding the incident of

5 the explosion?

6 A Which explosion are you referring to?

7 Q Aboard the Philippine Airline?

8 A The reason why he approached me is because they

9 wanted to see what we had collected from the Josefa

10 Apartments.

11 Q Now, did anyone ask you to examine anything which

12 was found in the Josefa apartment and to find similarities

13 between that and whichever was found in the Philippine

14 Airline?

15 A Yes, he told me that he wanted to take pictures

16 of the watch and the things that I had collected from the

17 Josefa Apartments because there might be some similarities

18 and he wanted to look into this.

19 Q Did he ask you at all to examine them?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Repeat for the interpreter,

21 please.

22 Q Did he ask you to examine them and compare them

23 with whatever was found or recovered from the Philippine

24 Airline?

25 A I don't know who's investigating the situation,

2211

1 sir.

2 Q When did this happen, sir? When did that person

3 approach you and ask you to show him the items?

4 A It was more than two weeks after the incident and

5 that was before I went to the US Embassy.

6 Q Now, sir, do you recall -- withdrawn.

7 Sir, isn't it a fact that you told the FBI that

8 the reason -- I withdraw the question.

9 (Pause)

10 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, may these be handed to

11 the witness?

12 THE COURT: Yes.

13 Q Now, sir, the items before you -- does your Honor

14 remember the Government Exhibit numbers?

15 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Government Exhibit 334D as in

16 David, Government Exhibit 334A, Government Exhibit 334C

17 Government Exhibit 334B as in boy, Government Exhibit 334.

18 THE COURT: Okay.

19 Q Now, sir, was it your testimony that these items

20 were taken by you while the search was being conducted in

21 room number 603?

22 A Yes, these things that are contained in this

23 black Concorde bag I collected this during the search.

24 Q Did these items also include Casio watches, am I

25 correct, sir?

2212

1 A Yes, there is.

2 Q Now, sir, during the interview with the FBI did

3 you tell them that the reason you kept the Casio watch which

4 you took during the search was to have it examined for

5 similarities to the timing device of the bomb which exploded

6 aboard the Philippine Airline in December of 1994?

7 A Sir, I don't remember saying anything of that

8 nature to the FBI. What I remember telling them is that I

9 said that I wanted to study the firing system.

10 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, may I have the

11 witness to be shown 3523C.

12 (Document handed to witness)

13 Q The second page, last paragraph.

14 Now, sir, having read the document, did you tell

15 the FBI that the reason why you took the Casio watches on

16 January 7, 1995, was to examine them for similarities with

17 the timing device which was recovered from the Philippine

18 Airline on December 11, 1994?

19 A Sir, at that time on January 7, 1995 I did not

20 know any relationship or anything that had to do with that

21 incident. Later on I was interviewed by Mr. Walbert and

22 that was time that I had learned anything about such a

23 relationship from him, but then I did not know anything

24 about it at that time in January 7, 1995.

25 Q So is it your testimony that you never made that

2213

1 statement to the FBI on that I date?

2 A Sir, it was already in the month of February,

3 1995 when I spoke to the FBI and I had mentioned to them

4 about this, and at that time I had already spoken to Mr. Mr.

5 Calvin Walbert.

6 Q Now, sir, is it your testimony that you did not

7 tell the FBI that the reason for taking these items on

8 January 7th was to examine them for similarities with

9 whatever was recovered from the Philippine airliner?

10 A Yes, sir, again, I repeat to you that on January

11 7, 1995, I had no knowledge of anything that it had to do

12 with the Philippine Airlines explosion. I also am telling

13 you that at some point Mr. Mr. Calvin Walbert spoke to me

14 and that's when I learned about this, and later on the FBI

15 spoke to me.

16 Q So is the answer no, that you didn't tell the FBI

17 that the reason why you took these watches on January 7th

18 was to examine them for similarities with whatever was

19 recovered from the Philippine airliner?

20 A Sir, on January 7, 1995 I did not know anything

21 about relations with the incident that happened with the

22 Philippine Airlines. In February, when I was interviewed by

23 the FBI I told them about what me and Mr. Walbert had talked

24 about.


2214

1 brief moment?

2 THE COURT: Pardon?

3 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Could I have one brief moment?

4 THE COURT: Sure.

5 (Pause)

6 Q Now, sir, after January 7 of 1995, did you

7 participate in any way in the investigation regarding a

8 person named Naji Haddad?

9 A I have no participation in that investigation.

10 Q Now, sir, isn't it a fact that you told the FBI

11 that you were instructed to investigate and conduct a

12 surveillance on Naji Haddad on January 13th of 1995?

13 A Sir, I wasn't asked to do any investigation. I

14 was just included in a group that were doing a follow up at

15 that time.

16 Q And what did this followup pertain to?

17 A That there had been some information that

18 possibly those people that were in the apartment 603 were at

19 the Diamond Hotel.

20 Q Did you do anything in regard to that

21 investigation, sir?

22 A Yes, we checked in and we were going to assist

23 should it be positive, should the intelligence command find

24 out that it was positive.

25 Q Sir, who was the person who instructed you to

2215

1 participate in these activities?

2 A Major Angeles invited me.

3 Q And what did you specifically do in regard to

4 that investigation?

5 A I just went there to check in their group.

6 Q I'm sorry, sir, to check in where?

7 A Check them in the hotel.

8 Q And which hotel you're talking about, sir?

9 A The Diamond Hotel.

10 Q And what was the reason for checking in the

11 Diamond Hotel?

12 A They checked into the hotel to do a surveillance

13 of the possible suspect that might be on the 20th floor.

14 Q Did you check in the hotel with them?

15 A Yes, intelligence command was checked in close to

16 the room, and we were checked in further away.

17 Q And who were the person who you were conducting

18 surveillance on them?

19 A It was only my group that I knew about.

20 Q Who were the person who you were following up in

21 the Diamond Hotel who were conducting investigation.?


23 interpreter?

24 Q I withdraw the question.

25 Now, who was the person who instructed you to

2216

1 participate in the investigation? Was it Major Angeles or

2 was it Gen. Canson?

3 A Major Angeles was the one that invited me because

4 I knew the chief of security of the Diamond Hotel.

5 Q Now, sir, isn't it a fact that you told the FBI

6 that you were instructed by Gen. Canson to investigate and

7 conduct surveillance on a person who they believed was Naji

8 Haddad?



11 A That happened later on when we went to the

12 outpost by the Manilla hotel, and General -- I'm sorry,

13 Major Angeles brought me there, and introduced me to Gen.

14 Canson, and he told us to go ahead and proceed to the

15 Diamond Hotel.

16 Q And did you conduct a surveillance on Naji Haddad

17 at the Diamond Hotel?

18 A No, sir, we were just on standby. It was the IC

19 that was to handle that. We were just there, just in case,

20 on standby.

21 Q Was there a time when Naji Haddad was videotaped

22 while he was in the Diamond Hotel?


24 THE COURT: Yes, outside the scope of direct.

25 I'll let it go. Go ahead.

2217


2 interpreter?

3 THE COURT: Sure. Was there a time when Naji

4 Haddad was videotaped at the Diamond Hotel?

5 THE WITNESS: That's what we were told

6 apparently. That's what they told us.


8 THE COURT: Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, the

9 motion to strike is granted. Forget about that last answer.

10 All right. Next.

11 Q Did you see the videotape which they videotaped

12 Naji Haddad there?

13 A They showed us a videotape of a person coming out

14 of the door and that person is not discernible. The

15 videotape was poor, and it was a person that was facing

16 back, going out. We couldn't tell.

17 Q Did you tell the FBI that you saw a videotape,

18 you observed a videotape for the individual who you were

19 conducting surveillance on him, and who Gen. Canson told him

20 that he's Naji Haddad.


22 THE COURT: That's all kinds of triple hearsay

23 and so on and so forth. It doesn't matter. Yes, sustained.

24 Q Now, sir, where is that videotape?

25 A I don't know, sir.

2218

1 Q Did you tell the FBI that the management of the

2 Diamond Hotel management possessed that videotape?

3 A Could you repeat that, please?

4 Q Did you tell the FBI that the management of

5 Manilla Diamond Hotel possess a videotape?

6 A I don't know if I told them that I saw a

7 videotape of this, that there is a gentleman facing back

8 that was not discernible of a person that was going out of

9 this building. I don't know.

10 Q Well, did you tell them that you observed or you

11 were shown the videotape, and you were able to identify that

12 person?

13 A I don't remember, sir, and I don't know. What I

14 know is our operation came out negative.

15 DEFENDANT YOUSEF: Your Honor, may I have witness

16 to be shown 3523F. The second page, the second paragraph.


18 Q Now, sir, did you tell the FBI that you were

19 shown the tape and the tape depicts the person who was shown

20 on the tape?


22 interpreter?

23 Q Did you tell the FBI that you were shown a

24 videotape and the videotape depicts the person or the

25 identity of the person who was on the videotape?

2219


2 THE COURT: I don't understand the question.

3 Redo it.

4 Q Sir, did you tell the FBI that you were shown the

5 tape which was possessed by the Manilla Diamond Hotel

6 management?

7 A Yes, I told them that.

8 Q And did you tell them that the person whose known

9 as Naji Haddad was depicted in the tape?

10 A This was information that was given to us by the

11 lady guard that worked in the hotel regarding the tape.

12 Q Sir, my question is, did you --

13 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, I ask the answer be

14 stricken as nonresponsive.

15 THE COURT: No, I'll permit it to stand. Next

16 question.

17 Q Did you tell the FBI that when you saw the tape

18 it depicted the identity of the person who was shown there

19 known as Naji Haddad?


21 THE COURT: Yes. That is sustained.

22 Q Now, sir, what happened after the investigation

23 or the surveillance which you conducted in the Diamond

24 Hotel?

25 A Sir, that particular investigation came out

2220

1 negative. Nothing was found. Nobody came out of that room.

2 So nothing happened at all.

3 Q Did you tell the FBI that the result of that

4 investigation was negative?

5 A I don't remember if I told them that or not.

6 Q Now, sir, was it your testimony that the people

7 who you were going to conduct surveillance on them were

8 allegedly the occupants of room number 603?

9 A Could you clarify that for me? What do you mean

10 by that?

11 Q When you first were instructed to conduct

12 surveillance on the Diamond Hotel, was it your understanding

13 that the individuals who you were going to conduct

14 surveillance on them were allegedly the occupants of room

15 number 603 in the Josefa building?

16 MR. SNELL: Objection. Asked and answered.

17 THE COURT: Were the residents of? Yes,

18 sustained.

19 Q Sir, did anyone ask you or order you to arrest

20 those individuals?

21 THE COURT: Which individuals?

22 Q The ones who were you conducted surveillance on

23 them in the Diamond Hotel?


25 THE COURT: He just said he never saw anybody.

2221

1 The whole thing was negative. Next question.


3 brief moment?

4 THE COURT: Yes.

5 (Pause)


7 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Udell.

8 CROSS-EXAMINATION

9 BY MR. UDELL:

10 Q Mr. Cruz, you're familiar with the City of

11 Manilla, are you not?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q And you know where the Malate police station is?

14 A Yes, it's also at the President Quirino Avenue.

15 Q It's near the Dona Josefa Apartments; is that

16 correct?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q But you know the difference between the Manilla,

19 Malate police station and Dona Josefa apartments, do you

20 not?

21 A What do you mean the difference?

22 Q They're not the same building, are they?


24 Q So you know, thirty years experience as a police

25 officer, that when you were summoned on January 7th, the

2222

1 morning of January 7th to go some place, you know where you

2 went; is that correct?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And today and yesterday you're telling us that

5 you went directly to the Dona Josefa apartments; is that

6 right?

7 A Yes, sir. Mr. Ramilo told me where the place

8 was.

9 Q But did you tell other people at other times --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Would you repeat that for me?

11 Q On other occasions did you say that when you were

12 summoned from your home on the early morning hours of

13 January 7th you went to the Malate police station?

14 A I say nothing of that sort, sir.

15 Q Well, in fact did you make a report on January

16 7th, 1995?

17 A Yes, sir.

18 Q Now, it has been your testimony yesterday and

19 today that you went to the Dona Josefa apartments directly

20 and you went there by yourself?

21 A That is the truth, sir.

22 Q You are an EOD technician?

23 A Yes, sir.

24 Q Sergeant Ramilo was an EOD technician?


2223

1 Q Sergeant Ramilo's partner is an EOD technician?


3 Q Well, did you say in your report that you made on

4 January 7, 1995, that the EOD, these EOD technicians also

5 accompanied the Malate police station operatives to room 603

6 of the apartment where the alleged explosive fire occurred?

7 Did you say that in your report?

8 Perhaps you'd like to look at the last paragraph

9 on the second page.


11 THE INTERPRETER: Would you repeat the question,

12 please?

13 Q Did you in your report of January 7, 1995, say,

14 the very last paragraph, these EOD technicians, of which you

15 are, claim to be one, also accompanied the Malate police

16 station operatives to room 603 of the apartment where the

17 alleged explosion fire occurred?

18 MR. SNELL: Objection, unless there is an offer.

19 THE COURT: Yes. Are you going to offer 3523C?

20 MR. UDELL: Does the witness have a copy of 3523B

21 in front of him?

22 THE COURT: Is that question directed to me?

23 Q I would ask, do you have a copy of 3523 in front

24 of you?

25 MR. UDELL: Forgive me, your Honor?

2224

1 A Yes.

2 Q And looking at page 2, is that your signature?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Do you recognize that as being the report that

5 you filed on January 7, 1995?

6 A Yes, sir.

7 Q And do you recognize that as being the report

8 which contained the false information which you provided on

9 January 7, 1995?

10 A Yes, sir, that portion of how I came about the

11 attache case is false. The rest, the contents of what I had

12 taken as an inventory from room 603 is correct.

13 Q Do you recognize this report as being the report

14 that contains false information?


16 THE COURT: Yes. Ask the next question.

17 MR. UDELL: I'll offer it in evidence.

18 MR. SNELL: No objection.

19 THE COURT: Okay.


21 Q Do you understand the difference between taking

22 an attache case and putting things inside of it and having

23 an attache case handed to you with items already inside of

24 it?

25 A Yes, sir, I know.

2225

1 Q Did you upon arriving at the Dona Josefa

2 apartments meet other police officers who handed you a

3 briefcase which smelled of an explosive material before you

4 ever got to room 603?

5 A Nothing of that sort, sir. That is not the

6 truth.

7 Q So it is not the truth either that you were

8 handed a briefcase outside of the apartment before you got

9 to room 603 which contained two pipe bombs and a single

10 firing mechanism?

11 A Yes, sir, that is what's contained on my report

12 and that is wrong, that is false, and the truth is what I

13 tell you today, that I was the person that collected the

14 items that were put inside the attache case.

15 Q Well, when you put these false items in the

16 report did you know they were false?



19 MR. UDELL: Your Honor, I don't mean to

20 interrupt, but I think the question should be read back

21 because I think it calls for a yes or no answer. It seems

22 like there's a lengthy dialogue going on.

23 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, I object to that.

24 THE COURT: Yes. All right, ladies and

25 gentlemen, we'll take our break.

2226


2 present)

3 THE COURT: Counselor, a dialogue is a talk

4 between two people where each one of them participates.

5 Here the only one talking was the witness who was telling

6 the interpreter what the answer to your question was.

7 MR. UDELL: Ed my question was, when you --

8 THE COURT: You didn't ask it as a yes or no

9 question. You left it open.

10 MR. UDELL: I believe the question was, when you

11 submitted this, provided this information did you know it

12 was false? And your Honor had started this morning by

13 telling us that this case is going on too long. I don't

14 disagree, but we are not attempting, nobody is attempting to

15 waste time here. And what I'm trying to do is get directly

16 from this witness, perhaps to save --

17 THE COURT: Then why don't you ask the question,

18 answer the question yes or no, and then ask the question.

19 MR. UDELL: That's been tried. That's been tried

20 by me with other witnesses. That's been tried with other

21 counsel. It does not seem to happen, but I will try that

22 from now.

23 THE COURT: Thank you, if you would, please.

24 (Recess)


2227

1 JOSE L. CRUZ, resumed through the interpreter.


3 CROSS-EXAMINATION(Continued)

4 BY MR. UDELL:

5 Q Sir, when you made your report on January 7th,

6 1995, at that time you represented that all of the

7 information contained therein was true; is that correct?

8 A No, sir, that portion where I came in touch with

9 the attache case is not true.

10 Q But when you made the report out did you

11 represent that it was true?

12 A Those were the instructions that I received, sir.

13 Q Again, sir, when you made the report out on

14 January 7th did you represent that the information contained

15 therein was true?

16 A Sir, that portion how I came about the attache

17 case is not true. The rest of the report is true.

18 Q Did you represent on January 7th when you made

19 the report out that some of it was true and some of it was

20 not true, or did you represent that it was all true?

21 A I prepared that report on the orders of Major

22 Angeles.

23 Q And on the orders of Major Angeles did you

24 represent in the report that it contained false information

25 or did you represent that it was true totally?

2228

1 A Sir, that particular portion with regards to the

2 attache case is false and the rest of it is true.

3 Q Sir, is it fair to say -- withdraw that.

4 When you made your application or your deposition

5 for the search warrant which is 3523H in evidence, on

6 January 7th, did you represent and swear that all the

7 information contained therein was true?

8 A Sir, I wasn't the person that applied for the

9 warrant. I was only a deponent, and as a deponent I told

10 them the truth.

11 MR. UDELL: Ed may the witness have a copy of

12 3523H in front, if that's possible?


14 Q Now, will you look at the first line that says I,

15 and does it say, I, Inspector Hose Latura Cruz, Junior,

16 after having been duly sworn testify as follows? So did you

17 swear then to tell the truth in that deposition?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q Now, in the deposition does it say, after being

20 duly sworn I swear to tell some truth, and not other truth?



23 Q Anything in there about you swearing to tell

24 partial truth?


2229


2 Q Did you appear before the Honorable Ernesto A..

3 Reyes, a Justice of the Court of the Philippines on January

4 7th and did you swear to tell the truth?

5 A Yes, sir, here in my deposition.

6 Q And did you represent to him, Ernesto Reyes, the

7 Honorable, that you were telling the truth?

8 A Yes, sir, this particular document I signed this

9 in front of him.

10 Q After you signed the document did you give

11 testimony before him?

12 A Yes, sir, he asked me some questions.

13 Q And did he ask you some questions about the

14 contents of the attache case?

15 A Yes, sir, I told him what the contents of it

16 were.

17 Q And did he ask you how you came about or how you

18 came upon the attache case?

19 A I don't think so that he asked me that question.

20 Q Did you represent to him that the contents of the

21 attache case as you presented them to him were the same as

22 they were when you found the attache case?

23 A Could you explain to me what you mean by that?

24 Q Did you tell Judge Reyes that you found the

25 attache case with the Casio and the pipes and the bombs

2230

1 inside?

2 A Perhaps I had mentioned that to him. Perhaps I

3 had told him that this was turned over to me.

4 Q And that was the same day that you had recovered

5 this attache case; is that correct?

6 A Yes, that is the same date, sir.

7 Q So what you are saying is perhaps you lied under

8 oath to Judge Reyes on January 7th; is that correct?

9 A Yes, sir, that portion where the subject of how I

10 came about the attache case is a lie.

11 Q And did you then file a followup report on

12 January the 8th?

13 A Yes, I did with Major Angeles.

14 Q And in that report did you represent how you came

15 upon the attache case?

16 A Yes, on the first portion I stuck to the same

17 story.

18 Q And did you -- and the story you stuck to was

19 false; is that correct?

20 A Yes, the portion of how I came about the attache

21 case is false, sir.

22 Q But at that time you represented it to be true;

23 is that correct?


25 Q Well, you didn't say in the report, caution, this

2231

1 may be false. You made a report representing it to be true;

2 is that correct?

3 A Yes, sir, I just followed through with the

4 instruction that was given to me, that particular portion of

5 the report is false, and this was what I was instructed to

6 do, so I followed through until the following day with the

7 story that I was asked to do.

8 Q And then did you talk to Mr. Walbert of the FAA

9 sometime later?


11 Q And did you tell, did you stick to the story with

12 Mr. Walbert?


14 Q All right. And did Mr. Walbert then invite you

15 to speak to Ms. Wassen and Agent Pellegrino and some other

16 officials of the United States sometime thereafter?

17 A Yes, Mr. Walbert extended to me an invitation.

18 Q And you accepted that invitation; is that

19 correct?

20 A I did accept the invitation, sir, with the

21 consent of Major Angeles.

22 Q And did Major Angeles tell you stick to the story

23 before you went to talk to the FBI?

24 A Sir, that was not an interview. That was a

25 situation where they processed the evidence.

2232

1 Q And did you tell the FBI that you were handed a

2 briefcase downstairs before you ever went upstairs to room

3 603 and the briefcase smelled, and the briefcase contained

4 two pipe bombs and a firing mechanism?

5 A I did tell them that story, but I don't remember

6 where I told them this, whether it come from me or the

7 offices of the embassy.

8 Q Did you tell them that story?


10 THE COURT: He just said yes. Next question.

11 Q Now, did you talk to the FBI in the Philippines

12 after this first time?

13 A Yes, my first interview was at the Camp Crame.

14 Q At any time in the Philippines did you tell the

15 FBI that the story about how you obtained the attache case

16 and the contents, and what was in it, when you first

17 obtained it was false?

18 A Yes, sir, I did tell them what was false

19 situation because I thought that at that time it would come

20 out easier.

21 Q Did you tell them that it was a false situation


23 A Yes, sir, I lied to them while they were in the

24 Philippines and I take responsibility for what I had done.

25 When it happened in the Philippines I stuck to my story and

2233

1 I found that I needed to tell the truth at this time.

2 Q Did they give you this commendation in the

3 Philippines?

4 A Yes, sir.

5 Q When you accepted the commendation did you say,

6 well, I got to tell you fellows something, I've been lying

7 all along? Did you do that?

8 A Sir, all of the evidence that I have collected

9 with regards to this case is I have collected it in the true

10 fashion that I said. With regards to how I came about the

11 attache case, sir, that is false and I accept that today.

12 Q Did you tell them when they gave you the

13 commendation that you had lied to a judge?

14 A Sir, I accepted this commendation in a very

15 hushed manner, and I don't know anything about how this came

16 about that they wanted to give me this commendation.

17 Q When you were in room 603 on January 7th there

18 were certain officials there, Gen. Canson, Major Bautista,

19 Gen. Ebdane, and Col. Razon; is that correct?

20 A Yes, sir, they arrived there.

21 Q And this was before you got this order from Major

22 Angeles to falsify your report; is that correct?

23 A Sir, they arrived there in the early part of

24 January 7th and we have not applied for a warrant.

25 Q And did they give you an instruction at that

2234

1 time?

2 A The instructions given to us were not to touch

3 anything at that time and that we were to apply for a

4 warrant.

5 Q And this was before you got this order, again,

6 this is before you got this order from Major Angeles. Is

7 this correct?


9 Q Now, how long after you got this instruction not

10 to touch anything did you touch this attache case?

11 A That order was sort of a general order to

12 everyone that was there, that as much as possible to

13 preserve the things that were there.

14 Q Well, did you testify in this court on July 11,

15 1996, last week --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me?

17 Q Did you testify in this court on July 11, 1996?

18 THE COURT: Day?

19 A Is that a Wednesday? Is that a Thursday?

20 Q Yes.

21 A Yes.

22 Q And did you say under oath --


24 Q Page 2103, I'm reading the answer on 24 and 25,

25 your Honor. Did you say:

2235

1 "At that time they also thought a computer that

2 was shown down by Mr. Ramilo and Mr. Mandigma, Gen. Razon

3 instructed us not to touch anything."

4 Did you say that?

5 A Gen. Razon did not give me any instruction, sir.

6 Are you talking about Col. Razon?

7 Q Didn't did you give that answer on January -- on

8 July 11, 1996?

9 THE COURT: I'm at a bit of a loss, counselor,

10 are you talking about 2103, line 5?

11 MR. UDELL: 24 and 25 going on to 2104, line 1.

12 THE COURT: Okay.

13 Q Sir, do you recall making that statement on July

14 11th?

15 A Yes, I testified here on Thursday, sir.

16 Q Do you recall on Thursday, July 11th, being asked

17 this question and giving this answer on 2104, line 7 to line

18 10?

19 "Q What happened next after the officer

20 looked around the apartment?

21 "A We were instructed not to touch anything

22 and I was instructed to apply for a warrant."

23 Were you asked that question and did you give

24 that answer?

25 A I don't understand what you're saying, sir.

2236

1 Q Did you testify here last Thursday --


3 THE COURT: Sustained. Come on, next question.

4 Q After you picked up the attache case did you

5 touch a piece of pipe?

6 A Yes, I collected it, sir.

7 Q And did you collect other objects?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q And did Sgt. Ramilo hand you a bag?

10 A No, sir, that's a folder.

11 Q Did he hand you a folder then?

12 A A folder, yes, sir.

13 Q And did that folder contain Arabic writing on it?

14 A It looks like it did.

15 Q And did you place that folder with Arabic writing

16 inside that attache case?

17 A Yes, sir. I put it inside the attache case which

18 I used as a container for the things that I collected.

19 Q And did you represent in your report, which is

20 3523B in evidence, that that folder was found inside the

21 attache case? It might help you to look at page 2,

22 paragraph, the first line on page, on the second page of the

23 report number 4 in the list of things you represented that

24 was inside the attache case.

25 A Yes, sir, I reflected in the report what were the

2237

1 contents of the attache case.

2 Q And did you represent in that report that attache

3 case was given to you by Capt. Fariscal?

4 A Yes, sir, that is the version that we have

5 written in this report.

6 Q And when you say "we," who do you mean?

7 A Myself and Major Angeles, because I was the one

8 that had ordered.

9 Q Well, did you direct Sgt. Ramilo to make a report

10 also?

11 A No, sir, I told Mr. Ramilo that I was to be the

12 one to prepare the report.

13 Q Were you his superior at that time?

14 A Yes, sir, I was.

15 Q Did you tell Sgt. Ramilo the instructions you got

16 from Major Angeles?

17 A Yes, sir, I briefed him about the situation.

18 Q Did you brief him that he was to say that he went

19 to the western precinct on January 7th and was given a

20 briefcase by Capt. Fariscal?



23 Q Did you tell Sgt. Ramilo to write certain things

24 in a report?

25 A Sir, my instructions with him was that he should

2238

1 not prepare the report; that I would be the one to prepare a

2 report. If he, whether he prepared the report or not, I

3 don't know.

4 Q So it's your testimony that you did not give him

5 a list of things to put in the report?

6 A Sir, I don't remember if I gave him a copy of my

7 report. And the other thing that I should mention to you

8 is, it was the two of us that did the inventory. He was

9 right in front of me when we were doing the inventory.

10 Q You don't remember that you gave him a copy of

11 your report, is that your testimony?

12 A Yes, sir, I don't know, because the instructions

13 were not to prepare a report.

14 Q You were filing a false document; is that

15 correct?



18 Q You don't remember whether you showed this false

19 document to a person to whom you are superior?


21 MR. UDELL: May I have the witness shown a copy

22 of 3522B in evidence?

23 THE COURT: 3522B.

24 MR. UDELL: If it's not available I have a copy.


2239

1 Q You read English, do you not, sir?

2 A I do, sir.

3 Q You filed your report in English?

4 A I did not prepare this particular report, sir.

5 Q I ask to put also in front of you 3523B, your

6 report.

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q Now, sir, tell me if I'm reading correctly when I

9 read the first two lines in your report which says:

10 About 070130H January, 1995, Police Senior

11 Inspector Aida Fariscal of the Malate police station

12 reported to this office."

13 Have I read that correctly?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Now, look at 3522B which is in evidence. Now,

16 tell me again, starting from the first line, the first two

17 lines, tell me if I've read this correctly.

18 "At or about 070130H January, 1995, Senior

19 Inspector Aida Fariscal of police station number 9WPDCPNP

20 called up this office."

21 Have I read that correct?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Now, would you look at the second paragraph of

24 this report, halfway into the second paragraph of your

25 report, 3523B, and starting on the second line you see the

2240

1 word operatives?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Now, am I reading correctly when I state it says:

4 "Operatives from the Malate police station

5 responded and noticed during the confusion a foreign male

6 national hurriedly left the place and in so doing left

7 behind a brown attache case which they suspected might

8 contain a bomb."

9 Is that what you put in your report?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q Now I'm going to ask you to look at 3522B which

12 may I state for the record is Sgt. Ramilo's report. Again

13 looking at the --

14 MR. SNELL: I object to that, your Honor.

15 THE COURT: Yes. This is all in evidence. You

16 can talk about it in summation. Why ask the man, am I

17 reading it correctly? Talk about it in summation if you

18 want to. What's the question you want to ask of this man?

19 Q Are you telling us that you did not tell Sgt.

20 Ramilo what to write in his report?

21 A Sir, I had told him about the report that I was

22 going to prepare and the subject matter of how it was going

23 to be prepared. Whether or not he was able to get a copy of

24 my report I don't know. Whether or not I gave him a copy of

25 my report, I cannot tell you. I don't know.

2241

1 Q You just said you don't remember if you gave him

2 a copy or not?


4 THE COURT: Yes. Come on.

5 Q Are you telling us that when you put in your

6 report --


8 Q -- that Ms. Fariscal, Capt. Fariscal recovered

9 the suitcase because it was left by a foreign male national

10 who hurriedly left the place, and Sgt. Ramilo put in his

11 report --



14 Q Are you telling us it's coincidence that Sgt.

15 Ramilo used the exact same words in his report that you used

16 in yours?

17 THE COURT: This is all argument. I don't

18 understand what you're doing. Ask questions, please.

19 MR. UDELL: At this time, your Honor, I'd like

20 3522B and 3523B be passed to the jury.

21 THE COURT: Sure. They're in evidence.

22 (Government's Exhibits 3522B and 3523B passed to

23 the jury)

24 THE COURT: Do you have any other questions?

25 MR. UDELL: Yes, I do, your Honor. We can do

2242

1 this later if you want, and I'll continue.

2 (Pause)

3 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to

4 get you 18 copies so each one will have your own, you can

5 read it at the same time.

6 Go ahead, counsel, continue on. They can read it

7 later.

8 Q Did there come a time that you took this attache

9 case back to your office after leaving 603?

10 A Yes, sir, that morning.

11 Q And then were you instructed to bring it to the

12 Presidential group?

13 A Yes, that morning around 8 or 9 in the morning.

14 Q Now, did you bring it to the Presidential group?

15 A Yes, I did, sir.

16 Q Now, is it fair to say there were members of the

17 Presidential group who were in the apartment at the time

18 that you were putting these things in the attache case?

19 A Sir, I can not tell you who those persons were.

20 I didn't recognize them.

21 Q Well, was Col. Razon a member of the Presidential

22 Group?

23 A Yes, I was told that this Col. Razon was from the

24 Presidential security group, but I didn't remember his face,

25 sir.

2243

1 Q Well, do you remember his face as being in the

2 apartment in 603?

3 A Yes, I was told that that was Gen. Razon who

4 arrived together with -- that was Col. Razon that arrived

5 with Gen. Canson.

6 Q Now, when you left -- did you leave the attache

7 case with the Presidential group?

8 A Yes, that was during a later part of the morning,

9 sir.

10 Q Did you see them videotaping the contents of the

11 attache case at that time?

12 A Sir, that was after lunchtime around noon time

13 when they returned to me the attache case. Before they

14 returned it to me they took a videotape.

15 Q All right. So between the time you left it and

16 the time that you went back to get it, you went back to your

17 office; is that correct?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q And it was during that time, sir, was it not,

20 that you got this instruction from Major Angeles that you

21 were going to falsify the report; is that correct?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And then after you got the instruction that there

24 was going to be a false statement as to how this, the

25 contents of this attache case was assembled, you then went

2244

1 back to the Presidential security group and whoever else was

2 there to recover the attache case and its contents; is that

3 correct?

4 A Could you repeat that, please?

5 (Record read)

6 A Correct, sir.

7 Q So now at this time you understood that the story

8 was going to be that the attache case and the contents there

9 were recovered in the manner in which you presented them; is

10 that correct?


12 MR. UDELL: I withdraw that.

13 Q You understood at this point that there was going

14 to be a false statement with regard to the contents of the

15 attache case; is that correct?



18 Q Was it at this point after you received this

19 instruction from Major Angeles and went back to the

20 Presidential security group that you now saw them

21 videotaping the contents of the attache case?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And that's the first time you saw them

24 videotaping; is that correct?

25 A The what, the attache case?

2245

1 Q Yes.

2 A Yes.

3 Q So before the story changes nobody videotapes the

4 contents. After the story changes they start videotaping;

5 is that correct?

6 A Sir, when they were doing that videotape I had

7 already prepared my report.

8 MR. UDELL: Ed may the witness be shown a

9 photograph, 351A, if that's possible the contents of the

10 attache case?

11 (351A handed to witness)

12 Q Is that the way the inside of the attache case

13 looked after you put the things in it that you said you put

14 in it?

15 A Not everything that I had put in here is shown in

16 this particular photo, just portions of it.

17 Q But the things that you had put in there are

18 showing in that photo; is that correct?



21 Q After they finished videotaping did you then

22 again take control of the attache case?

23 A Yes, sir, it was returned to me.

24 Q And did you again go back to your office?

25 A Yes, I did, sir.

2246

1 Q And at that time were plans made to apply for

2 this search warrant?

3 A Yes, the papers were being processed.

4 Q And Major Angeles, he was the person who was

5 making the application for the warrant; is that correct?


7 THE COURT: Yes. I think it's been asked and

8 answered a couple of times. Yes. Next question.

9 Q Were you one of the persons who made a deposition

10 with regard to this warrant?

11 MR. SNELL: Same objection.


13 Q Did you state -- withdraw that.

14 In this application for the warrant did you, was

15 the name of the subjects of this warrant put in?

16 A Sir, I don't know. Major Angeles was the one

17 that applied for the warrant.

18 Q Have you had experience with applying for

19 warrants?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q And when you apply for a warrant do you list the

22 name of the case or the name of the subject in the warrant,

23 if you know the name?

24 A Yes, sir.

25 Q And is it fair to say that generally a police

2247

1 officer will know a person's name by asking the person that

2 name?



5 Q What does the term or the name John Doe mean to

6 you?

7 A Sir, I was not the person that applied for the

8 warrant.

9 Q Have you ever -- you've been a police officer for

10 thirty years. Have you ever heard the term, the name John

11 Doe?



14 Q Is it fair to say that when the term John Doe is

15 used you're referring to a person whose name you do not

16 know?


18 THE COURT: Yes.

19 Q Would you refer, sir, to 3523H. Does the

20 document state at the very top People of the Philippines

21 plaintiff, versus Naji Haidah Haddad and John Doe?


23 THE COURT: It's in evidence, isn't it? I

24 believe it's in evidence.

25 MR. UDELL: It's in evidence.

2248

1 THE COURT: Yes, okay. Next question.

2 Q Does that document contain your signature on the

3 bottom?

4 MR. SNELL: Objection. Asked and answered.

5 THE COURT: Ask him.

6 Q Did you indicate in your last answer or your next

7 to last answer when you were asked do you know who are the

8 person or persons who have control of the above premises,

9 there are three persons inside the room?


11 THE COURT: It's in there. It's in evidence

12 already.

13 MR. UDELL: Judge, might this be a good time for

14 a break?

15 THE COURT: Yes. Sure. After lunch I'll have

16 those copies for you.

17 (Jury, witness and interpreter not present)


19

20

21

22

23

24

25

2249

1 THE COURT: David, you want to make an

2 application? Is it the same one?

3 MR. GREENFIELD: The same one, your Honor, yes.

4 Particularly there was the question that led to it. It was

5 the witness said withdrawn.

6 The question said to the witness: There was no

7 reason for you to lie, which opens the door once more to the

8 answer of national security and the Pope's safety. The

9 Court struck that answer, but it's like the pink elephant,

10 you can't strike it. And we're being battered here with the

11 theory of prosecution that we weren't told about, and now

12 it's being brought out by our codefendants.

13 THE COURT: Yes. Same ruling. Okay. 2 o'clock.



16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

2250

1 AFTERNOON SESSION

2 2:00 p.m.

3 JOSE L. CRUZ, JR., resumed.

4 (Jury present)

5 THE COURT: You will recall, ladies and

6 gentlemen, I asked one of my law clerks and court clerk to

7 make copies before? Only took an hour and a half. Pass

8 them out. Everybody should have two separate documents, one

9 being 3523B and the other being 3522, I think it is B again.

10 (Pause)

11 THE COURT: OK, guys? All right. Go ahead,

12 Mr. Udell.

13 CROSS-EXAMINATION Continued

14 BY MR. UDELL:

15 Q Mr. Cruz, the report you made on January 7, that

16 was for the ADDI, is that correct?

17 A This is addressed to Major Angeles.

18 Q What does ADDI stand for?

19 A Assistant district director for intelligence.

20 Q Is that Major Angeles?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q So what you are saying is, Major Angeles told you

23 what to put into a report that you made to him?

24 A Yes, sir, with that particular portion regarding

25 the attache case and how I came about it.

2251

1 Q And Major Angeles said you have to make a report

2 to me, so you falsify in this way and then you give it to me

3 as your report.

4 A I told you that he told me that I should stick to

5 this version, and so this is the report that I had prepared.

6 Q Was it your expectation then that if this report

7 goes to Major Angeles and Major Angeles is the one who

8 initiated this fabrication, that that report would stay with

9 Major Angeles and no one else would see?


11 THE COURT: I will permit that.

12 A He didn't say anything like that. My

13 instructions were to write the report based on the version

14 that I had stuck to, because we were pressed for time. In

15 four days the Pope was due to arrive, and it was a very

16 tricky situation.

17 MR. UDELL: May I have that last part of the

18 answer stricken as nonresponsive.

19 THE COURT: Do you want to read it back, Martha.

20 (Record read)

21 THE COURT: That last part, starting "In four

22 days," forget that. Go ahead.

23 Q Did Major Angeles instruct you to indicate in the

24 report on the second page that you were going to submit this

25 filler, the substance in what you have described as the

2252

1 suspicious device, to the NBI for analysis?


3 THE COURT: No.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Please repeat it for the

5 interpreter.

6 Q Did Major Angeles instruct you to put in your

7 report that you were intending to submit this explosive

8 filler to the NBI for analysis?

9 A Sir, that was not instructed to me. This is part

10 of my SOP.

11 Q What is the NBI?

12 A That is the National Bureau of Investigation.

13 Q Did you submit this filler to the National Bureau

14 of Investigation for analysis?

15 A I am not quite sure whether I was able to submit

16 this to the NBI, because the FBI had already processed it.

17 Q Did you stick to your story that Major Angeles

18 gave you for the entire time that you were in the

19 Philippines?

20 A Yes, sir. This is the story that I stuck to

21 while I was in the Philippines, because that was the story

22 that I felt it would be easier for them to understand, and

23 that I should stick to that.

24 Q Was one of the people who you mentioned in your

25 report Captain Ada Fariscal?

2253

1 THE COURT: Do you object?

2 MR. SNELL: Yes, I do.


4 Q At any time when you spoke to the FBI in the

5 Philippines, did they confront you with your report?

6 A I am not quite sure and I don't remember whether

7 I gave a copy of my report to the FBI, sir.

8 Q Did you tell the FBI that when you spoke to them

9 on February 16, did you tell them that when you got to the

10 building of the Dona Josefa you were handed this attache

11 case by some other police officer?


13 THE COURT: Yes. It has been asked and answered.

14 Q At any time did the FBI confront you with

15 anything -- at any time did the FBI in the Philippines

16 confront you with anything that is contrary to the statement

17 that you were telling them?

18 A No, sir, I just gave them the version that was

19 written in my report.

20 Q When did you learn that you were going to be

21 asked to go to the United States?

22 A In the month of May this year, sir.

23 Q Did you learn that from anyone in the United

24 States government or did you learn that from Major Angeles?

25 A I received a copy of a letter, sir.

2254

1 Q Do you recall who signed the letter?

2 A I believe it was an attorney from the Department

3 of Justice here in the United States of America.

4 Q Did you take this letter or did you inform Major

5 Angeles of this letter?


7 Q After receiving the letter and while you were

8 still in the Philippines, did you speak to anyone from the

9 United States Department of Justice or from the FBI?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q Did they at that time tell you about -- withdraw

12 that.

13 Did they at that time discuss with you the

14 arrangements that were going to be made which you testified

15 to on direct examination?

16 A Sir, that was contained in the letter.

17 Q And these arrangements allowed you to come to the

18 United States and to bring certain members of your family,

19 is that correct?

20 A Sir, that is a part of the plan and the proposal,

21 and it has not happened.

22 Q When you received the letter, did you contact

23 anyone in the Department of Justice to tell them that part

24 of the story that you told was untrue?

25 A Sir, when I arrived here.

2255

1 Q You arrived here in June?

2 A Yes, sir, I did.

3 Q Was that the early part of June, around June 6 or

4 7?

5 A Yes, sir, within a few days after I arrived I

6 told them the truth.

7 Q Did you arrive together with Sergeant Ramilo?

8 A Yes, sir, we arrived at the same time here in the

9 United States.

10 Q Did there come a time when representatives of the

11 government began to talk to you about your testimony, here

12 in the United States?

13 A Yes, we had a briefing.

14 Q Did they confront you at that time with your

15 report, the one that is dated January 7?

16 A In the briefing they give us a summary of the

17 reports that we had prepared in the Philippines.

18 Q Did you bring the report with you when you came

19 here to the United States?

20 A Yes, I had a copy, sir.

21 Q You personally brought a copy with you?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And you showed it to them?

24 A Sir, they had a copy of their own.

25 Q Were you aware of the fact that they had a copy?

2256

1 A From what I know, I had a copy, because I

2 submitted that.

3 Q To ADDI, is that correct?

4 A To the ADDI, sir, and I don't know if I furnished

5 a copy to the FBI, except I remember that they did get a

6 copy from me.

7 Q And as you suggest, ADDI is Major Angeles?


9 Q Is it not a fact, sir, that it was when the

10 government confronted you with your report that you decided

11 to change your story?

12 A No, sir, we have been having talks a long time

13 ago, even way back when I was in the Philippines.

14 Q Did the government ever tell you before you

15 changed your story that they had Sergeant Ramilo's report

16 also?

17 A They did not tell me anything of that nature,

18 sir.

19 Q But you talked to Sergeant Ramilo when you came

20 to this country, is that right?

21 A Sir, when we arrived here in the United States a

22 few days later, Sergeant Ramilo and myself had a talk, and

23 it was during that talk that we decided amongst ourselves

24 that we will be telling the truth as to what had happened

25 regarding the attache case. This was an opportunity for

2257

1 myself and for him to correct the wrong that we have done,

2 and we realize that today.

3 Q The wrong you did was in January of 1995, is that

4 correct?

5 A You are correct, sir.

6 Q You continued the wrong for 18 months, is that

7 correct?


9 Q You were willing to swear in front of a judge in

10 your country as to this wrong, is that correct?

11 A Yes, sir, I did, with that portion of how we

12 recovered the attache case.

13 Q You were willing to accept an accomodation from

14 this country without telling them about the wrong you did,

15 is that correct?

16 A Would you clarify that for me.

17 Q Is it fair to say that when you received this

18 accomodation you did not break down and tell the

19 accomodators that you did wrong, that you lied?

20 MR. SNELL: Objection to form.

21 THE COURT: Yes.

22 You mean commendation, not accomodation.

23 Q Is it fair to say that when you received this

24 commendation, you did not break down and inform people that

25 were awarding you such that you had been lying?

2258

1 MR. SNELL: Object.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could I clarify? Is it

3 commendation or accommodation?

4 MR. UDELL: Commendation.

5 A Sir, at that time I didn't know that I was going

6 to receive a commendation. We were invited to their offices

7 and they handed us the commendation.

8 Q When was that?

9 A Around the month of February 1995.

10 Q You were invited to come to this country in May.

11 Did you tell them in May when you got this letter that you

12 had been lying?



15 Q When you accepted, when you made the agreement to

16 have your father taken care of to come to this country, did

17 you tell them then that you had been lying?



20 Q Isn't it a fact, sir, that the reason you changed

21 your story, the reason you changed your story when you got

22 here is that you got nervous that they were going to find

23 out the truth?

24 A No, sir, that is not the reason. The reason why

25 I tell the truth today while I am here is because this is my

2259

1 opportunity to correct the wrong that I have done.

2 Q You told them, you told the FBI that when you got

3 the call in the morning of February, in the morning of

4 July -- I am sorry, I am wrong -- on the morning of January

5 7, you went directly to the Dona Josefa Apartments, is that

6 correct?


8 THE COURT: Yes.

9 Q Did you learn that Sergeant Ramilo had told them

10 that you went to the 9th precinct, to Malate precinct?

11 A No, sir, I did not go to the 9th precinct. I

12 headed directly to the Josefa Apartments.

13 Q Would you look at 3522B.

14 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, could we have the last

15 answer stricken as not responsive and hopefully --

16 THE COURT: No, no, sit down. You will have

17 buttons.

18 Q Would you look at 3255B in evidence.

19 MR. SNELL: I am sorry. I think it is 3522.

20 MR. UDELL: Sorry, 3522B in evidence.

21 THE WITNESS: I don't have a copy.

22 (Pause)

23 A Sir, this particular document is not my report.

24 Q Would you look at the top paragraph of it.

25 A Yes, I have read it, sir.

2260

1 Q This is Sergeant Ramilo's report, is it not?


3 THE COURT: No, I will let him answer that. If

4 you know.

5 A It is possible that he prepared this report.

6 Q And Sergeant Ramilo told them you went to the 9th

7 precinct, is that correct?


9 Q If you know.



12 Q Is it not a fact, sir, that when you and Sergeant

13 Ramilo began talking, you became nervous because your

14 stories were in conflict?

15 A Sir, Mr. Ramilo and myself discussed my intention

16 that we were going to tell the truth.

17 Q Do you know these two gentlemen here, Mr. Snell

18 and Mr. Garcia, to be employees of the federal government,

19 United States government?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q And you know Agent Pellegrino to be an employee

22 of the United States government?

23 A Yes, sir.

24 Q Did you learn that it is a crime punishable by up

25 to five years in jail to lie to an employee of the federal

2261

1 government?



4 MR. UDELL: I have no further questions.

5 THE COURT: Mr. Greenfield.

6 CROSS-EXAMINATION


8 Q Sir, you were the chief of the explosive

9 ordinance disposal unit in 1994, is that correct?


11 Q In the year 1994, approximately how many pipe

12 bombs exploded in the Metro Manila area?

13 A In my jurisdictions, there were two.

14 Q Is your jurisdiction greater Manila?

15 A Just the city of Manila, sir.

16 Q Does that include Makati?

17 A No, sir.

18 Q How far is Makati from Malate?

19 A It is a distance, about two or three kilometers.

20 Q Sir, is Makati part of the western police

21 district?

22 A No, sir, it is not.

23 Q But Malate is, and that is where you are?


25 Q Do you know an individual named Mario Ignacio?

2262

1 A Yes, sir, I do.

2 Q Is he an explosive ordinance disposal technician?

3 A I know that he is from the Makati special

4 operations group.

5 Q Do you know that he is involved in the

6 investigation of explosions in the Makati special

7 investigations unit?

8 A Sir, perhaps that he does, but I don't know. I

9 am not a member of his unit.

10 Q Sir, on December 1, 1994, were you involved in

11 the investigation of an explosion that occurred at the Green

12 Belt Theater?

13 A No, sir, I was not involved in that

14 investigation.

15 Q At any stage or at any phase, is that correct?

16 A No, sir, I had no involvement with the

17 investigation, although at some point we exchanged

18 information if other things happened in other places.

19 Q Sir, with respect to the explosion at the Green

20 Belt Theater, did you receive any reports from any

21 investigating officers who responded to that explosion?

22 A I don't remember if I was furnished any reports.

23 Q As you sit on the stand now, do you recall

24 reading any reports with respect to the explosion of the

25 Green Belt Theater on December 1, 1994?

2263

1 A Sir, I don't know and I don't remember if I read

2 any such report, but I know of the incident that happened on

3 December 1, 1994.

4 Q Did you investigate it personally?

5 A No, sir, I did not personally investigate this

6 matter, but we do have some meetings from our association in

7 the office, in their offices sometimes, and so some

8 information are exchanged sometimes.

9 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, I would ask the

10 court to instruct the witness to be responsive to the

11 question and I would ask that the second half of the answer

12 be stricken.

13 THE COURT: Sure, you got that.

14 Look, listen to the question and answer that.

15 Q Sir, on direct examination you testified that you

16 brought certain items unrelated to your investigation at the

17 Dona Josefa to a meeting with the FBI in January of 1995, am

18 I correct?

19 A Yes. Some of the things I brought there had

20 nothing to do with this investigation.

21 Q On direct examination, did you not testify that

22 you brought items to the meeting related to other bombings

23 which were not related to the Dona Josefa incident?

24 A Yes, sir, I brought some things from within my

25 jurisdiction, two of them, and of course the Makati station

2264

1 was also invited and they brought the things that was within

2 their jurisdiction.

3 Q My next question to you, sir, is, did you bring

4 any items to this meeting personally which related,

5 allegedly, to the Green Belt Theater explosion?

6 A No, sir, I did not. The person that brought

7 something from the Green Belt was Inspector Lomitao.

8 MR. GREENFIELD: I would ask that be stricken.

9 THE COURT: Yes, after "No, sir, I did not bring

10 anything," take everything after that out.

11 Q On direct examination you testified that you

12 found certain things in the apartment number 603 at the Dona

13 Josefa on January 7, is that not correct, sir?

14 A Correct, sir.

15 Q Among the things you told the FBI sometime after

16 that was that you found in this attache case two pipes and a

17 firing mechanism, is that correct?

18 A Yes, sir.

19 Q And rather than go through what we went through

20 before or earlier, if I can surmise it, in the Philippines

21 you stuck to the same story.

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q And I think you just said the reason you stuck to

24 that story, it would be easier for them to understand.

25 A Yes, sir, that it would be easier for me and

2265

1 convenient for me if I stuck to my story.

2 Q Was it easier for them to understand -- who did

3 you mean when you referred to "them"?

4 A Sir, when I said that I was referring to myself,

5 that it would be easier for me to stick to this version of

6 the story.

7 Q So that when you stated before that it would be

8 easier for others to understand, you are now saying that you

9 misstated that?


11 Q Did you not more than 15 minutes ago tell this

12 jury that the reason you told the same story to everybody in

13 the Philippines was that it it would be easier for them to

14 understand?

15 A Sir, what I meant was that it would be easier for

16 myself on my own to stick to that story.

17 Q In the Philippines?

18 A Yes, sir, when I was there.

19 Q You ultimately arrived in the United States in

20 the beginning of June of this year?

21 A And what do you mean when I arrived here?

22 Q Ultimately you arrived in the United States

23 sometime in the beginning of June 1996, isn't that correct?

24 A Yes, sir.

25 Q There came a time when you were interviewed by

2266

1 the assistant United States attorneys in this case in early

2 June of 1996.

3 A Yes, sir, we had a briefing.

4 Q Would I be correct in assuming that one of the

5 things you told the United States attorneys when you were

6 first interviewed was that you would use this disrupter

7 device to open up the suspicious item?

8 A Yes, I used that, sir, when I tried to open it.

9 Q And you told that to the United States attorneys

10 when you spoke to them in June of 1996?

11 A I don't remember if they had asked me that

12 particular question that time, sir.

13 Q Was it in any reports?

14 A Which report are you referring to, sir?

15 Q Either yours or Ramilo's.

16 A Sir, I did not ask Mr. Ramilo to prepare a report

17 and I was not aware when there was a report by Mr. Ramilo.

18 Q Mr. Ramilo was interviewed by the United States

19 attorneys also in early June of 1996, isn't that right?

20 A I don't know when that happened, sir. They

21 talked to us one by one, one at a time.

22 Q Were you staying in the same hotel or residence

23 with Mr. Ramilo?

24 A Which place are you talking about, sir?

25 Q I don't know where you are staying.

2267

1 THE COURT: No, no, no. I think what he is

2 talking about is the Philippines --

3 MR. GREENFIELD: I am sorry, here in the United

4 States.

5 THE COURT: Here in the United States, are you

6 staying in the same hotel as Mr. Ramilo?


8 Q Certainly since you have gotten here in June of

9 1996, you have discussed your meetings with the United

10 States when you got back to the hotel, isn't that right?


12 THE COURT: No, I will let him answer.

13 A Sir, we did not speak or have any conversation

14 with regard to this case. Our conversations were just

15 casual and friendly conversations.

16 Q Yet one day, on June 17, 1996, you were both

17 struck by the same bolt of lightning and decide to change

18 your story and tell the truth to the United States Attorney,

19 is that what you are saying?


21 THE COURT: Mostly argument.

22 MR. GREENFIELD: Do you want me to rephrase the

23 question, your Honor?


25 Q You get here the same day Ramilo gets here in the

2268

1 United States, is that right?


3 Q You are staying in the same hotel that he is

4 staying in.


6 THE COURT: Yes, that has already been answered.

7 Next question.

8 Q You are each meeting with U.S. Attorneys in

9 separate meetings, is that right?


11 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, if I have to break

12 it down --

13 THE COURT: Yes, I know, I know. That one, go

14 ahead.

15 A Sir, it was at one time that I met with the

16 members of the United States Attorney's Office here in New

17 York, and after that I told them what I knew is the truth.

18 Q How soon after you arrived in the United States

19 did you do that?

20 A Sir, about three or four days after I had arrived

21 here in the United States and we had had a briefing, I then

22 decided that I was going to tell the truth as to what had

23 happened exactly with the attache case. At that point, I

24 told Mr. Ramilo my intention to tell the truth, and then it

25 was up to him to make the decision what he was going to do

2269

1 from that point on.

2 Q You arrived in the United States what day?

3 A I believe it was June 5, sir.

4 Q So by June 9 you had made, allegedly had made

5 this decision?


7 THE COURT: Yes, bad form.

8 Did you make this decision before June 9?

9 A Sir, I apologize that I am not sure of the exact

10 date. It was a few days after we had arrived.

11 Q Sir, yes or no, on January 7, 1995, did you order

12 senior police officer number 04 Ramilo that he, on the

13 orders of your higher ups, should file a false report with

14 respect to what occurred on January 7, 1995? Yes or no.

15 THE COURT: Look, I don't know what the answer is

16 going to be, but the question calls for a yes or no.

17 A I did not ask him to make a report.

18 Q My question to you, sir, is, did you on January

19 7, 1995, order senior police officer 04 Ramilo to file a

20 false report on the authority of higher officials in the

21 PNP?

22 MR. SNELL: Objection, asked and anwsered.

23 THE COURT: No, it is not.

24 MR. GREENFIELD: Asked but not answered.


2270

1 Q This was an important time, you are saying, in

2 January of 1995, isn't that correct?


4 Q During your 30-year career, had you ever ordered

5 anybody to lie?

6 A Sir, in this particular situation I admitted to

7 you that I did lie and that was because of the special

8 circumstances that it entailed.

9 Q My question to you -- I have heard that. Now

10 answer my question. Did you in your 30-year career other

11 than this one instance allegedly lie or order anybody else

12 to lie with respect to your police duties?

13 A In this particular incident I lied, yes, sir.

14 Q Other than this incident, did you ever order any

15 other police officer of the Philippine National Police or

16 the Philippine constabulary before that, to lie in their

17 official capacity as police officer?

18 A Sir, on my particular personnel Mr. Ramilo, I

19 instructed them to do what was not the right thing to do

20 because that was the instruction that was given to me.

21 Q Is your answer now that you did in fact tell

22 Ramilo to lie on January 7, 1995?

23 A Just on that particular portion of our story,

24 that he must stick to this particular line.

25 Q You are under oath in this proceeding, isn't that

2271

1 correct, sir?


3 THE COURT: Was there an objection?



6 Q Sir, have you told this jury any number of times

7 that you never ordered Mr. Ramilo to lie on January 7, 1995?


9 THE COURT: No, I see what's coming. Go ahead,

10 answer it.

11 A Could you repeat that question.

12 MR. GREENFIELD: Could I have it read back, your

13 Honor?

14 THE COURT: Sure.

15 (Record read)

16 A Sir, on the 7th I received a an instruction to do

17 the story line and I had informed Mr. Ramilo that that was

18 the story line that was going to be used, and there was also

19 an order that there was going to be no news about this and

20 it must not be known to anybody, and so that's what I did.

21 MR. GREENFIELD: I ask that the entire answer be

22 stricken and that he answer the question that I posed him.

23 THE COURT: No, I think the answer is contained

24 someplace in there. The jury is here. They will listen.

25 Next question.

2272

1 Q Can I glean from your answer that you told Ramilo

2 that he in fact should file a false report?

3 A Sir, my instructions to him was that he should

4 not prepare a report, that I was going to prepare a report

5 myself but I had informed them in the briefing of what the

6 story line was that was going to be contained in the report

7 that I was to prepare.

8 MR. GREENFIELD: Could we strike that one, your

9 Honor?

10 THE COURT: No, I will let that one stand. Go

11 ahead.

12 Q Didn't you say not more than five minutes ago

13 that you told him to file a portion of his report in a false

14 fashion?

15 MR. SNELL: Objection, objection.

16 THE COURT: I don't remember -- it sounds like

17 argument anyway. Sustained.

18 Q Sir, when is it that Chief Inspector Angeles

19 tells you that you should file a false report?

20 A Sir, that was in the morning of January 7.

21 Q Where did that occur?


23 Q Approximately what time in the morning were you

24 given this order?

25 A Sir, that was at that time after I had returned

2273

1 from the PSG to drop off the attache case.

2 Q Did Chief Inspector Angeles give you a list of

3 items to include in your report?

4 A No, sir.

5 Q Sir, when did you first learn that a laptop

6 computer was allegedly found at room 603 on January 7, 1995?

7 A That was in the early morning, sir, when

8 Mr. Ramilo and Mr. Mandigma informed General Canson that

9 there was a computer there.

10 Q And that is when you first learned that, is that

11 your testimony?

12 A Yes, sir.

13 Q Isn't it a fact that in March of 1995 when you

14 were interviewed by the FBI you said you didn't learn that

15 there was a computer found until sometime after you left the

16 apartment?

17 A I don't remember that I said that to the FBI.

18 Q Would you look at 3523E, please.

19 THE INTERPRETER: You said C or E? Excuse me.

20 MR. GREENFIELD: I said E.

21 Q Last paragraph.

22 (Pause)

23 Q Have you read that to yourself, sir?

24 A Yes.

25 Q In March of 1995, did you tell special agents of

2274

1 the FBI that you only learned there was a computer in the

2 apartment sometime after you were in the apartment?

3 A Sir, I knew that there was a computer when

4 Mr. Ramilo and Mr. Mandigma mentioned that that day, that

5 morning when we were there, and that's what I knew -- I

6 really didn't know that that was a computer because I had

7 not seen anything like that before.


9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

2275

1 THE COURT: We are going to take a break right

2 now.

3 MR. GREENFIELD: I think I can use one also.

4 THE COURT: All right, ladies and gentlemen.

5 (Recess)


7 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, right now we don't have

8 any redirect of the witness but we do have an application

9 before the witness is excused.

10 THE COURT: What is the application?

11 MR. SNELL: Application regarding the

12 photographs, based on the cross-examination of both Mr.

13 Yousef and Mr. Udell.

14 THE COURT: Who is next, in case you finish

15 before the day is over?

16 MR. SNELL: If we finish before the day is over,

17 the next witness will be Albert Ferro.

18 THE COURT: Major or something?

19 MR. SNELL: I am sorry, your Honor.

20 THE COURT: Agent?

21 MR. SNELL: Major Ferro. He is from the

22 Philippines.

23 THE COURT: That is what I thought.

24 (Witness resumed)

25 (Jury present)

2276


2 Q Sir, yes or no. On January 7, 1995, did you

3 instruct senior police officer 04 Ramilo to exclude from his

4 official report that he found a computer in room 603 of the

5 Dona Josefa Apartments?

6 A No, sir, I said nothing of that sort.

7 Q Upon arriving at the apartment on January 7,

8 1995, were you shown an improvised explosive device,

9 allegedly, by Sergeant Ramilo?

10 A Mr. Ramilo and Mr. Mandigma informed me that

11 there was a suspicious device on top of the cabinet by the

12 kitchen area.

13 Q Who else was in the apartment when you arrived

14 besides those two gentlemen?

15 A What I remembered was Captain Fariscal and the

16 foreigner that I identified was there.

17 Q And that's it?

18 A I don't know, sir. I didn't notice if there were

19 any other personnel, but there were personnel from station 9

20 downstairs. If they were in the vicinity of that apartment,

21 I don't know.

22 Q I am asking who was in the apartment. You just

23 named three names and a foreigner. Anybody else besides

24 those three names, yourself and a foreigner who were in the

25 apartment when you arrived on January 7, 1995?

2277

1 A Sir, the names that I mentioned and I gave to you

2 were the persons that I know at that time. Whether there

3 were some people there at other times I don't know.

4 Eventually people arrived there.

5 Q Sir, when you arrived and you were shown this

6 allegedly suspicious device, allegedly shown to you by

7 Ramilo, did you immediately order him to disarm it?

8 A No, sir, I instructed him not to touch it and to

9 leave it the way it was.

10 Q Sir, do you have any devices within your

11 control -- withdrawn.

12 Did you have any devices within your control as

13 the chief of the explosive ordinance disposal unit that

14 remotely opened attache cases in January of 1995?

15 A What do you mean by that s sir?

16 Q In your experience as an explosive ordinance

17 disposal technician, have you ever used any sort of

18 implement that remotely, through remote control opens

19 suitcases or briefcases?

20 A What do you mean by that, the attache case that I

21 collected at room 603?

22 A Yes.

23 Q Yes.

24 A That was open, sir, when I collected it.

25 Q Did you have any equipment in January of 1995

2278

1 that was capable of opening an attache case, any attache

2 case in a remote control fashion?

3 A It is possible that one of my personnel had it,

4 but, you know, they were the ones that responded. I didn't

5 have it on me.

6 Q Does your squad have that type of equipment?

7 A Yes, sir, they have.

8 Q And have you used that equipment when you were

9 chief of the unit?

10 A Yes, sir.

11 Q Did you order, on January 7, 1995, senior police

12 officer 04 Ramilo to state in his report that he remotely

13 opened the briefcase in question at the 9th police station?

14 A I put in the report that we had rendered safe the

15 suspicious device that was in the attache case.

16 Q Sir, that is your report now. Put your report

17 down, sir, and answer my question. Did you order on January

18 7, 1995, -- withdrawn.

19 On January 7, 1995, did you order senior police

20 officer 04 Ramilo to include in his report that he remotely

21 opened the suspicious attache case he received at the 9th

22 police station from Ada Fariscal?

23 A I didn't say anything like that to Mr. Ramilo,

24 sir.

25 Q Sir, you say a bomb was found in a six-story

2279

1 residential apartment house at or about 2 a.m., is that

2 right?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q You have no idea if it is timed or booby-trapped,

5 is that right?

6 A Sir, my presumption was there was none, because

7 that building is a residence. There are a lot of people

8 that live there, and that particular apartment that they

9 were referring to was assumed to be occupied.

10 MR. GREENFIELD: Could I have the question read

11 back, your Honor?

12 THE COURT: Sure.

13 (Record read)

14 Q Could you answer that question, sir.


16 THE COURT: I think he tried to.

17 MR. GREENFIELD: He did?

18 THE COURT: Yes.

19 MR. GREENFIELD: Can I ask it again in another

20 fashion, Judge?

21 THE COURT: Sure.

22 Q Sir, when you enter the apartment on January 7,

23 1995, were you in possession of any information that would

24 lead you to believe that a bomb was not set to go off?

25 A No, sir, I have no such information.

2280

1 Q And you believed it could be a bomb?

2 A What do you mean by that?

3 Q Haven't you been telling us the last three days

4 that you believed that device was a suspicious device?

5 A Yes, sir. When I got upstairs it was pointed out

6 to me that there was something there that looked like a

7 suspicious device, that had the wrapping around it.

8 Q Maybe I have been wrong -- withdrawn. Maybe I

9 have misunderstood. When you have been saying suspicious

10 device, I thought you meant something that would explode.

11 Was I wrong?


13 THE COURT: It is poor in form, but go ahead and

14 answer it.

15 A No, sir. At that particular time they showed me

16 a suspicious device and there is a possibility that could

17 explode. But then again that place isn't booby trapped.

18 That place was occupied by a person that was living there.

19 So I didn't know.

20 Q And you weren't concerned that if a bomb went off

21 other residents of the building might be injured?

22 A Sir, that is why I instructed them not to touch

23 it, because there might be an accident or other people might

24 get hurt.

25 Q Did you ultimately touch it?

2281

1 A Yes, sir, of course. They had looked it over and

2 so they had touched it, and it didn't do anything, so my

3 assumption is it is not booby trapped. So I further

4 instructed them not to touch it.

5 Q You don't know if it contained a timing device

6 inside, did you?

7 A No, sir, I didn't know that, because it was

8 wrapped.

9 Q And if the plastic wrapping came off, you were

10 able to tell if it had a timing device inside of it?

11 A No, sir, I did not find a timing device inside.

12 Q Sir, isn't it a fact that no pipe bomb was in

13 that apartment that evening on January 7, 1995, but in fact

14 Major Angeles told you to say something was found in that

15 apartment that evening?

16 A That is not the truth, sir. In fact, first thing

17 that morning when we got there, I was able to take

18 photographs of the things that were inside that.

19 Q Sir, a videotape allegedly was made on January 7,

20 1995, is that correct?

21 A Yes, sir, that was later on that afternoon. It

22 lasted through the evening.

23 Q Sir, did you ever see that videotape in the

24 Philippines? Was it ever played for you?

25 A Yes, sir.

2282

1 Q When and where did you see it?


3 Q Approximately when?

4 A After Mr. Capacete had taken the video, then we

5 reviewed it in our offices.

6 Q That same day?

7 A I don't remember what day that would be. It was

8 in the evening.

9 Q Now, sir, you were Officer Capacete's superior on

10 January 7, 1995?

11 A Correct, sir.

12 Q And his orders were not to film anything on the

13 videotape until they had been tagged and identified, is that

14 correct?

15 A My instructions to him were, sir, that when

16 Mr. Ramilo and the rest of the party were conducting their

17 inventory and investigation, that he was to take the

18 videotape.

19 Q You say you found certain things in that

20 apartment that afternoon while the video camera was running,

21 is that right?

22 A Could you repeat that, please.

23 Q You say that you found certain things in the

24 apartment during the course of the execution of the search

25 warrant, during the time the video camera was present and

2283

1 being used in that apartment.

2 A Where did I say that, sir?

3 Q Didn't you say that during the time that you were

4 executing a search warrant you found a Casio data bank watch

5 in a drawer in that apartment?

6 A Sir, I didn't say that. We weren't taking any

7 video of the watches at that time that evening. I collected

8 those watches that morning when I was there and in fact I

9 took several photos. The video was taken in the afternoon.

10 Q You didn't say earlier today or yesterday that

11 the video was found -- withdrawn -- that one of the data

12 bank watches was found when you returned to the apartment?

13 A When I collected that, Joe-Joe was not able to

14 take a video.

15 Q So when you found the data bank watch, Joe-Joe --

16 is that what you called him? -- wasn't able to take the

17 video?

18 A No, sir, I wasn't.

19 He wasn't able to take a video that afternoon,

20 but I was able to take a photograph of it earlier that

21 morning.

22 Q And you said you found some tools that afternoon.

23 Did Joe-Joe take videos of the tools you found?

24 A Sir, Joe-Joe was not able to take a video of

25 those tools because we found those tools after we had

2284

1 returned to our office that evening.

2 Q And you say there were burns on the floor in the

3 kitchen area. Did you tell Joe-Joe to take pictures of the

4 burns on the floor in the kitchen area?

5 A The burn marks that I saw, I saw that on my own.

6 Whether Mr. Capacete, or Joe-Joe, was able to take a

7 videotape of that, I don't know, sir.

8 Q You were his superior officer that day, weren't

9 you?

10 A Sir, I was the chief of Mr. Capacete at that

11 time, but at that time I tried to supervise them as much as

12 I can. There were a lot of people there and there was a lot

13 of confusion that was happening.

14 Q Did you give a direct instruction to your

15 subordinate Joe-Joe Capacete to take videotape footage of

16 the burn marks in the kitchen area?

17 A I don't remember specifically if I had ordered

18 him to take videotapes of the burn marks, but my

19 instructions to him were to take a videotape as things were

20 happening in that room.

21 Q Sir, when you first arrive for the execution of

22 the search warrant, who unlocks the door to room 603?

23 A There was a representative there, Mrs. Saracho,

24 together with the room boy. They opened the door and I was

25 the first one to enter.

2285

1 Q And there was no one in the apartment?

2 A Inside the apartment there was no one.

3 Q Isn't it a fact that you previously told people

4 that a member of the Philippine National Police was securing

5 the apartment?

6 A That is the way I understood it, but they must

7 have been outside.

8 Q Did you see any uniformed police officer on the

9 tape when you reviewed it?


11 Q You kept certain items that were seized during

12 the course of the search warrant being executed, isn't that

13 correct?


15 Q Those items, which you say you kept, are not

16 reflected, are they, in the inventory filed with the court

17 as to items taken during the course of the execution of the

18 search warrant?

19 A Sir, it is possible that Mr. Voltaire Gomez was

20 not able to include these items in the inventory. So I

21 wrote a report to reflect these items.

22 Q He is your subordinate, isn't he?

23 A Yes, sir, and I should explain to you that at

24 that time it was chaotic and it was busy, so we just put all

25 together the wires that were there. We did not bother to

2286

1 identify every single one of them.

2 Q You went into that apartment specifically looking

3 for timers, watches, things of that nature, isn't that

4 correct?

5 A Sir, that is a part of what we saw inside that

6 apartment.

7 Q You went in there allegedly looking for things of

8 that nature, isn't that correct?

9 A Yes, sir. When I went before the judge and he

10 asked me what were the things that I saw in there, I told

11 him everything that was inside the room, and so when we came

12 back to serve the warrant, those were the things that I

13 looked for and I collected.

14 Q You allegedly collected. The inventory does not

15 indicate that you found a data bank watch when you returned

16 on the evening of January 7, 1995, does it?


18 THE COURT: I will let it go.

19 A Sir, like I have told you, there were a lot of

20 things there, so Mr. Voltaire Gomez was not completely able

21 to identify every single item that was collected there. So

22 that the data bank was not there, perhaps. So what I did

23 was I prepared the report to reflect that there was this

24 particular item.

25 Q You testified in this courtroom on July 15, 1996,

2287

1 correct? Yesterday.

2 A Yes, sir.

3 Q Page 2191, your Honor, lines 6 through 10. Sir,

4 yesterday were you asked this question and -- withdrawn. It

5 will be from line 2 through 10, your Honor. Were you asked

6 these questions and did you make these answers:

7 "Q What did you assign Mr. Gomez to?

8 "A Particularly for Mr. Gomez, I assigned him

9 to the writing of the inventory as well as the making

10 of the inventory.

11 "Q Did you give him any instructions

12 regarding the items which he should include in the

13 inventory?

14 "A Everything that was inside the room. We

15 went through it one by one. As we went through it,

16 he was listing it, and as he is listing it he is

17 marking it with a tape."

18 Did you make those answers yesterday to those

19 questions?

20 MR. KULCSAR: Your Honor, might I ask that the

21 interpreter be given the minutes to read rather than relying

22 on what was read?

23 THE COURT: Sure. I don't have it in front of me

24 right now.

25 THE INTERPRETER: What line was that?

2288

1 MR. GREENFIELD: 2 through 10.

2 Q Sir, you read English, don't you, sir?

3 A Yes.

4 Q Read that to yourself.

5 (Pause)

6 A Yes, sir, I have read it.

7 Q Does it indicate in yesterday's answer that it

8 was chaotic in there and he left some things out?

9 A Yes, sir. There was a lot of electronic parts

10 and electronic items in that room, and we could not possibly

11 list every one of them.

12 Q Did you list in the inventory any of the alleged

13 Casio watches that were supposedly seized in that apartment?

14 A Yes, sir. As I have explained to you,

15 Mr. Voltaire Gomez got the electronic items and the

16 electronic parts collectively. So the watch must have been

17 collected together with the electronic parts. So later on I

18 made a report to indicate that.

19 Q You are saying that Mr. Gomez may have included

20 incandescent bulbs and watches in the same characterization?

21 Is that your testimony?

22 A Yes, sir, there were a lot of different things

23 there. There were watches, there were timers, there were

24 electronic implements.

25 Q The fact is that one of those items that is

2289

1 allegedly contained -- withdrawn.

2 The fact is that none of the items contained in

3 your report are reflected in the official inventory filed

4 with the court in the Philippines in January of 1995.

5 A Sir, perhaps in the report of Mr. Gomez it was

6 not included. I didn't prepare the report where I asked

7 Mr. Gomez to signature and sign.

8 Q I am talking about the official inventory filed

9 with the judge.

10 A It is possible, sir, that that is not included

11 there.

12 MR. GREENFIELD: Your Honor, I would offer as a

13 defendant's exhibit the inventory.

14 MR. SNELL: It is already in.

15 MR. GREENFIELD: Then I won't.

16 THE COURT: You can offer it, but it is already

17 in anyway.

18 Q Sir, when was this videotape allegedly made?

19 A Sir, Joe-Joe took that videotape during the

20 course of the serving of the search warrant that afternoon.

21 Q And in your mind there is no question but that

22 this videotape was shot on January 7, 1995, and no date

23 later than that?

24 A Yes, sir.

25 Q You keep certain items, you say, for your own

2290

1 purposes, for examination purposes, is that right, like the

2 watches that you held, the Casio watches?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q Did you ever submit submit the Casio watches on

5 January 7, 8, 9 or 10 to the National Bureau of

6 Investigation of the Philippines?


8 Q On any day did you submit any of the items that

9 you took for examination to the National Bureau of

10 Investigation for their forensic examination?

11 A I did not submit it, sir, because we were

12 informed that no one was to know about this incident.

13 Q You were a police officer, correct?


15 Q The National Bureau of Investigation are police

16 officers, is that correct?


18 Q You were informed not to go talk to the public,



21 Q You are saying that these were trying times for

22 you, that this was a very momentous occasion, isn't that

23 right?

24 A Yes, sir, that particular time it was.

25 Q And you didn't submit any of the items that you

2291

1 personally seized to determine if in fact what you were

2 concerned about may or may not have been happening.


4 Q Didn't you say that you had some concerns for

5 national security and the security of the Pope?

6 A Yes, sir, that is the truth, and so I kept those

7 things with me.

8 Q And that helped you further your investigation,

9 by putting it in your pocket, is that what you are saying?

10 A I wasn't the person that was investigating this

11 particular case, sir.

12 Q Did you give these items to the person who was?

13 A No, sir, it was in my possession at that time.

14 Nobody tried to collect it from me until such time that

15 Mr. Walbert approached me.

16 Q Sir, isn't it also a fact that on February 16,

17 1995, you tell special agents of the FBI that the reason you

18 kept these watches was because you wanted to examine it for

19 similarities with the timing device of the bomb which

20 exploded aboard Philippine Airline flight 434 on December

21 11, 1994?

22 A It is possible that I have said that after having

23 been briefed by Mr. Walbert.

24 Q You wouldn't have said it because according to

25 you you didn't know it on January 6 or 7 of 1995, is that

2292

1 right?



4 A Sir, on January 7, I kept that particular one

5 because I wanted to look at that wiring system. There was

6 only one, compared to the other one that I had collected

7 that morning where it had two wiring systems.

8 Q My question to you, sir, very specifically, yes

9 or no, in February of 1995 did you tell an agent of the FBI

10 in words or substance that the watch was retained by

11 yourself to be examined for similarities with the timing

12 device of the bomb which exploded aboard Philippine Airline

13 flight 434 on December 11, 1994?



16 A Yes, and that is the reason why I told the FBI,

17 because Mr. Walbert had written me about this.

18 Q When did Mr. Walberg or Walbert brief you about

19 this?

20 A When he came to visit me at my office, he showed

21 me some pictures and he wanted to look at the watch that I

22 had in my possession to see if they could have some

23 comparison.

24 Q Approximately what date does this occur?

25 A It was, I believe, before the FBI interviewed me,

2293

1 sir.

2 Q Would that be after you searched the Don Josefa

3 apartment?

4 A Yes, sir, the search had been finished.

5 Q And you testified on direct examination that that

6 didn't occur until a couple weeks after the search had been

7 finished, this interview with Mr. Walbert of the FAA.


9 Q So you are saying now that you kept the watch on

10 January 7, anticipating Walbert would come a couple weeks

11 later so that you could compare it to what went off on the

12 Philippine Airline flight, is that right?


14 Q Did you know on January 7 Mr. Walbert?

15 A No, sir, I do not know him at that time.

16 Q Then how can you have told the FBI in February of

17 1995 that you kept the watch on January 7 for the purpose of

18 comparing it to the Philippine Airline watch?

19 A I don't know, sir, why they mentioned such a

20 thing in the report. Perhaps they misquoted it.

21 Q Or perhaps you made another mistake in your

22 testimony.



25 Q Sir, there came a time, you are saying, after the

2294

1 incident at the Dona Josefa apartment, you went to an

2 apartment, I believe you said on Singalong Street?

3 A Yes, sir.

4 Q And you were ordered there by somebody?

5 A Yes, I was asked by Major Angeles to accompany

6 his men.

7 Q What time is it that you arrive at this address,

8 or this building?

9 A It was at nighttime. It was probably past 7.

10 Q How long were you there?

11 A Sir, it was just for sometime I waited for

12 General Canson. After he arrived and we had done what we

13 needed to do, he left and I also left.

14 Q How long were you there then?

15 A It is possible that we were there for two or

16 three hours. I cannot tell you exactly, sir.

17 Q Sir, did you file a report with the Philippine

18 National Police as to the fact that you were allegedly at

19 this apartment on Singalong Street in January of 1995?

20 A No, sir, I didn't file a report.

21 Q You were interviewed, I think, on three separate

22 occasions by the FBI in the Philippines in 1995 with respect

23 to this case, isn't that right?


25 Q And isn't it a fact that on those three occasions

2295

1 you never once mentioned going to Singalong Street to the

2 FBI?

3 A They did not ask me about that, sir, so I didn't.

4 Q Did you know why you were meeting with the FBI in

5 1995?

6 A They did not tell us in particular what they

7 wanted. They just wanted us to go there for an interview.

8 Q You have been a police officer 30 years, you

9 said?

10 A I don't understand. Can you say that again,

11 please.

12 Q You were a police officer for 30 years, isn't

13 that correct, sir?

14 A Yes.

15 Q You know that all information is important to the

16 police, isn't that correct, sir?

17 A Yes, I do.

18 Q Is it your testimony that in the three visits you

19 had with the FBI in the Philippines in 1995, you never

20 volunteered to them that something allegedly occurred on

21 Singalong Street in January of 1995?

22 A I don't remember if I had mentioned it to them or

23 they had asked me any questions in regard to this matter,

24 and that is perhaps why I didn't tell them.

25 Q Did you volunteer the information to them?

2296


2 Q Look at the reports that indicate your interviews

3 with the FBI. They are before you.

4 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, could we just identify

5 for the record what the witness is examining?

6 MR. GREENFIELD: C, D, E and F.

7 (Pause)

8 A I don't see it in here, sir.

9 Q Isn't it a fact that the first time you ever

10 mentioned this alleged incident in January 1995 on Singalong

11 Street was approximately a week and a half, two weeks ago?

12 A It is possible that I disclosed that here, sir.

13 Q Were you ordered by Chief Inspector Angeles to

14 volunteer that information this late date?


16 THE COURT: I will let it stand.

17 A No, sir, I have not had any conversations with

18 Major Angeles.


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2297


2 THE COURT: Do you have any redirect?

3 MR. SNELL: Just an application.


5 (Witness excused)

6 THE COURT: We will take the application after

7 the jury leaves.

8 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I am going to

9 ask you tomorrow, if you could, please, we are going to get

10 started at 9:30, God willing. If it puts a real burden on

11 you, let me know. I am also thinking about -- I am not yet

12 to that point -- working Fridays, but that may put a real

13 burden on you. I am not asking you. If it does, please

14 tell Eric -- there he is -- and we will figure it out. All

15 right, guys? Good night, see you tomorrow morning.

16 (Jury excused)

17 THE COURT: What is the application?

18 MR. SNELL: Your Honor, the government renews its

19 application to introduce the photographs taken by Mr. Cruz

20 based on now a third cross-examination which really perhaps

21 the most pointedly of all cross-examinations lays the

22 groundwork for a defense argument that there is no proof

23 other than the recollection of the witness that the Casio

24 watches came from inside the apartment 603. Those Casio

25 watches are now in evidence and the witness has photographs

2298

1 of those watches which the witness is prepared to testify he

2 took on the morning of --

3 THE COURT: He took?


5 THE COURT: He personally took?

6 MR. SNELL: He personally took.

7 THE COURT: The rules require that evidence of

8 this type be turned over prior to trial. You have been with

9 this evidence from at least June, early June of this year.

10 I have no idea when else it could have happened. It had to

11 be this witness or one of the others bringing it in. You

12 didn't turn it over, you don't get it in. It's the same

13 thing as you want to get in a statement by the defendant,

14 had to be a couple of weeks you have had that. I have no

15 idea exactly when because it is not detailed here. You

16 don't get that in either.

17 You know, one of the things that we have to do is

18 play by the rules.

19 MR. SNELL: If I might, your Honor, the

20 circumstances surrounding the government's obtaining these

21 photographs are that we didn't even know about the existence

22 of the photographs until last weekend, and immediately we

23 requested the photographs that the witness said he had in

24 his possession here in New York, plus additional ones that

25 he said were still in the Philippines. We had those DHL'd

2299

1 to New York and they arrived, I think in the middle of last

2 Thursday morning's court session. We disclosed them as soon

3 as we had them.

4 THE COURT: You mean to say in all of your

5 discussions with this witness or with the other witnesses,

6 there was no mention whatsoever as to whether any pictures

7 were taken?

8 MR. SNELL: That is certainly my understanding,

9 your Honor. I don't know of any discussion with this

10 witness about photographs at that particular time inside

11 room 603. The later time with the search warrant, we

12 certainly did discuss that, and we knew about the videotape

13 and it was turned over when we knew about it, many months

14 ago.

15 THE COURT: You will talk to this witness at some

16 point, I have absolutely no doubt about that. You have the

17 videotape. The videotape shows flash bulbs going off. It

18 would indicate immediately that there were pictures and you

19 didn't ask the man that was there whether pictures were

20 taken and he didn't say yes, but somebody took them in the

21 morning?

22 No, I am not going to fly with that one, because

23 what that indicates, either it wasn't properly investigated

24 or it wasn't properly prepared. One way or the other, it is

25 not a burden which should be stuck on the defense. This is

2300

1 not a case that came up and you had to try within two weeks

2 after the indictment. No way.

3 9:30 tomorrow morning.

4 (Proceedings adjourned until Wednesday, July 17,

5 1996, at 9:30 a.m.)

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ramzi yousef trial transcript part3

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