ramit susan negotiate pt2

Salary Negotiation – Part.2 Ramit Sethi and Susan Su

1

Ramit Sethi and Susan Su Salary Negotiation – Part 2 – Tactics Ramit Sethi: Alright, I'm Ramit Sethi from I Will Teach You to Be Rich. Susan Su: I'm Susan Su, freelance writer and marketer. Ramit Sethi: And we are talking about negotiation again. Now we are going to talk about the tactics, right. So we talked earlier about how we met and how you were working at Google, and you decided to get a new job, you were up against three senior recruiters at this Tech Company, and you had already made one mistake which was to reveal your minimum salary. Susan Su: Yeah, I was totally nervous, I was on the phone—I hate talking on the phone—and I blurted out my minimum salary, even though everything I'd learned about negotiations...and I did take some time to learn about negotiations by reading this book on negotiation. Everything I learned told me not to reveal a minimum price, but when it came right down to it—I did anyway. Ramit Sethi: Wait a minute, you read that book on negotiation, but did you read this book [holds up copy of I Will Teach You to be Rich]? Susan Su: This book did not come out yet. Ramit Sethi: Good point. I've always wanted to do that on camera. So you were now scheduled with three senior people, and you said this is a negotiation emergency; I've got to call Ramit. So you emailed me, cold, out of the blue. I could tell you were smart. We met up at a diner, and I said: I will coach you on how to negotiate if you will allow me to film some stuff on negotiating and capture it, so that other people can learn from it. Susan Su: Yeah, and I was thinking—I don’t care what it takes, this is a negotiation emergency. Ramit Sethi: It's a negotiation emergency... We've got a new TV show. Alright, here is how we structured it. So we sat down at this diner, and I had a flip camera, and I said: I'm going to pretend to be the recruiter, and you are going to answer my questions. So we did that first. How was that experience for you?


2

Susan Su: It was awful. It was extremely uncomfortable, I just never really role-played anything before. I never did drama or acting, and I didn’t know how to fake a conversation before a real conversation. But now, in retrospect - and actually I noticed this when the real negotiation happened too - getting myself past that uncomfortable phase of doing the role play was critical, because all the practice kicked in immediately. I knew exactly what to say and when to say it, because we practiced it. Ramit Sethi: So we did the before...I actually thought you were pretty good. You had answered a lot of my questions well. You evaded some of the top ones I gave you, but ultimately, I caught you against the wall, and you were forced to reveal your salary and a bunch of information that I shouldn’t have any access to. Then I taught you some of the techniques, and we’re going to go over those in a second. Then we did an after role play. So we did the before and then we did the after, and I was, again, the mean recruiter, I tried to corner you. I chased you around verbally, and how was this experience for you? Susan Su: It was really tough, and it was also really tough given the handicap that I started out with, which was, you know, Ramit the mean recruiter, already knows what minimum amount of salary I will accept. I thought it was great, because we did our practice starting at that base point of—alright, you already messed up on this thing, let's see how much better we can get you from there. Ramit Sethi: It was like you were dragging a big anchor around as you're trying to run a race. Susan Su: Right, right—and so, can you still win the race? Ramit Sethi: Yeah, and fortunately you were able to. Again, just refresh people's memory. You negotiated an $8,000 increase in the base salary they offered, as well as a 50 percent increase in equity. Susan Su: Right, all those things with the handicap Ramit Sethi: Amazing! Most people would not be able to negotiate that at all, but that’s because of a couple reasons—one they don’t think they're worth it, and two—they don’t do the proactive work of not only reading a book but actually going and getting experienced help to help them—right? Susan Su: Right.


3

Ramit Sethi: And we spent—would you say, like two hours negotiating? Susan Su: No, about four hours. Ramit Sethi: Four hours, alright. I'm very nice—four hours of my own time... Susan Su: Yeah. Ramit Sethi: But four hours for $8,000 and equity? Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: To me, it's a no-brainer. We have people...I have people who are writing to me on: how do we generate passive income—I'm like: focus on your goddamn salary. Susan Su: Right, it’s like I will pay you $1,000 an hour to do this role play, take it or not. Ramit Sethi: Take it or not. Okay, so now let's talk about the tactics. So people are like—oh, they're great. Well, Susan is amazing, How did she do it? Let's talk about what we actually talked about. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: And so I think it was four or five principles that we worked on, do you want to walk us through it, and we can just chat about it. Susan Su: Sure! So number one, reveal as little information about yourself as possible that has to do with salary. You do want to reveal information about your accomplishments and that sort of thing, of course, but you are never obligated to give out a baseline salary. That's the recruiter's number one job - to push you for that information so that they can know where to start you. Now, if you are like me, if you're looking for a new job, you're probably also looking for a new salary. You're probably not looking to go through the hassle of changing jobs just so you can make the same amount of money. So your interests versus the recruiter's interests are fundamentally at odds. They want to get you at that same salary or possibly lower, and you want to get that job at a higher salary. So just keeping that in mind—never, ever reveal your salary.


4

Ramit Sethi: So let me talk about from the recruiter or company's perspective and what they are thinking. Basically you are coming at a job—most jobs have a certain salary range, I can go onto Salary.Com or PayScale.Com and I can get a range within $5,000 to $7,000. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: So let's say that you are a project manager and your range is 60K to 65K. Fine, that’s a decent salary and you should be prepared to work within those confines, but the most important thing is, if you are indeed a top performer, then this applies to you more than anybody else. If you are an average performer, then you should expect an average salary, because you are by definition average; but a top performer should not be bound by those constraints. I will personally tell you that I hired someone who… his salary range as in the 70Ks—he was so good that I paid him over $100,000. Susan Su: Wow! Ramit Sethi: Because he was so good. Susan Su: Wow! Ramit Sethi: And, not only was he so good, we had a deep need for him. We would have paid anything, because when a company says something is strategic, it means that it is necessary for their main strategy. It's core to their strategy. So at that point I would have paid virtually anything. I could have paid up to 125K for him. Susan Su: Right, and I think also this thing about Salary.Com, as you were saying—if you go on Salary.Com and look up say the salary range for a project manager in your zip code, you will notice that they give you a range. They show you this graph and it's got a range, and this graph is very important because it shows you that the range for any job, any kind of job, project manager, you know, blah-blah-blah system, whatever you want to look up, the range is tens of thousands of dollars. I think for a project manager the range is as wide as $50,000 between the lowest and the highest end, so that is all that you have to work with, and that’s where value comes in. Ramit Sethi: Absolutely, so that brings up the point of your interview. Your interview is not to get them to make you just any offer—that’s fine, I mean, if you really need the job, and you want to get any offer fine, but we are talking about elite people who have ample experience and are top performers.


5

So at that level—when you are operating at that level—your goal is to show that you are far more valuable than the average person. That’s the point of the interview, it's not to focus on a number—right, it's to say—spend 80 percent of your time talking and demonstrating how much value you can add and what a great fit you could be for the company. Again, you need to assess the value and see if they're a good fit, but by the time you get to that—if you do your interview right—by the time you get to the salary negotiations it's kind of like—okay, we love you, we think you're strategic for us, now let's just figure out the numbers that will make it work. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: Okay, so we've talked about number one – don’t reveal your salary. So let's go on to the next one. Susan Su: Yeah—so actually, focusing on value is the next principle. It's really critical. Don’t make it a numbers game. When I met Ramit, he told me one thing that I will never forget, which is that: it's all about the phrase—let's make it work. I know that you want me to work here; you know that I want to work here—we've taken care of the biggest problem, right? Ramit Sethi: Right. Susan Su: Being that... Ramit Sethi: Do we like each other? Susan Su: Yeah, do we like each other? Is this going to work? Are you going to be the right candidate to perform this job at an excellent level? Yes, that’s the hardest question to answer, and I think focusing on value shows that you are the right candidate, this is a good fit, and that this whole numbers thing is just so trivial compared to getting the value part right. Ramit Sethi: Yes—are we a good fit for each other? Let's spend 80 percent of our time talking about that, and if we agree on that, then I'm sure we can find a way to make it work on the numbers side. Whereas most people will go in there and they are desperate to get the job and they don’t bother asking the company—like: hey, is this company a good fit for me. They just want to get an offer because you have to win. I know a lot of top, elite candidates that go to companies, they get offers, and they say, you know what, that’s not right for me. Even though I


6

could have made more money there I'm going to go to this other place. Again, top performers. So you want to demonstrate that you are selective. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: It's kind of like going into a bar, right. If you go to a bar and you're standing alone, whatever, you're just this loner dude, but if I'm surrounded by three hotties, then people are like—who is that guy? Is he a Personal Finance Blogger? Oh, man! So you do really want to demonstrate that you are selective and you are in demand. Susan Su: Right, and I think what's also key, I've heard executives that I've worked closely with, say stuff like: oh, that’s no big deal, that’s $5,000 a month, that's no big deal, that’s just worth a June to us, or a Stacy to us. Now when I hear that I think—God, I'll be damned. I never ever want to be a number to my boss. And I think in negotiations it's the same thing. If you over-focus on the actual salary number then you make yourself into a number to the company. If you focus on your value as a person, then they will be...if you do it right, then they will be willing to pay almost anything to bring that value into the company. Ramit Sethi: That’s totally right, so let's spend just a couple of minutes on this, because it's so important. You don’t want to commoditize yourself, and a commodity is something at is substitutable. Salt is a commodity. Salt-A or Salt-B is exactly the same and therefore the prices are the same. Most candidates are commodities, they make themselves commodities because they go in and they say, I'm a project manager. Well screw you project manager, you are on Salary.Com, you are 60K, but if you are Susan, the person who can solve our problems for monetization and did an amazing job at Google with X, Y and Z projects, then you can never be commoditized. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: So you have to demonstrate that you are different; and most important, that you will solve their problems. That’s why you spend a lot of the interview asking them—so what are your strategic challenges, where are you going? What are the problems right now? What does the competitive landscape look like? And then you say: well, you know, it's really funny you mentioned that the competitive landscape is actually shifting to an online hosting model. It's funny because I happen to work


7

and we translated this product from desktop to hosting, and we were able to achieve six thousand percent uptake in less than three months. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: Oh, my, god! As a manager I'd say: I'll do anything to get her on board. Susan Su: Yeah, and that’s really the mindset you want to get people into. It’s like when they look at luxury goods for example, they will do anything... Ramit Sethi: Anything. Susan Su: Anything to get it. For salt, they're like: yeah, whatever, we will substitute this for this, for this. So yeah, I think value is huge. It has a lot to do with raising your salary. It has a lot to do with how to get people to forget about the numbers game. Then if you're like me, and you're interviewing for a job when you're really looking for a big bump in salary over your last job, it's critical to focus on the additional value you'll bring beyond what the written job description says. Ramit Sethi: Yes, because frankly a company is going to be making much more off you than they're paying you. So a lot of companies have the number... actually every major company has a number of revenue per employee. For many it's like a $1 million or more, and they're paying you like what—60K, 80K, 90K, even 120K. It's just trivial in the grand scheme of things, but you have to demonstrate that, yeah, I can help lead this project that will generate whatever revenue, or help facilitate whatever goals. The final thing on the commoditizing thing and then let's move onto the next thing. Commoditizing—there's a good example in the restaurant space. So there are these people called menu engineers and they actually design menus at places like Chili's, or many restaurants, because they can test it and tweak it and see which one generates the most revenue. What they know is that you don’t want to put all the number in one column because the first thing people will do, they will go in there and look and say—oh, too expensive, too expensive—oh, $6.50 for a chicken sandwich, done. Instead what they do is they embed them in the description—succulent filet of whatever on a bed of lettuce with whatever-whatever, and you're like: hmm, that sounds good—oh, it's $12.50—well, it's worth it.


8

And so they de-commoditize themselves. Now that’s just a simple example, but you should be always thinking—how am I different and better than everyone else—when I'm applying for this job. Susan Su: Mm-hmm; and how can I separate myself from the price. Ramit Sethi: Yes. Alright, so what's the next principle? Susan Su: So I think the next thing we should talk about is cooperation. Ramit Sethi: Well, it's very adversarial. Susan Su: It doesn’t have to be. Ramit Sethi: Okay. Susan Su: So you are negotiating for this job, and if you are successful you are going to be working with those people. So you necessarily need to incorporate some cooperation, and I personally think that all negotiations work best if you approach it from a cooperative standpoint. Hey, I want to help you—I want to help you guys make more money. I know that my skills and my expertise will make a huge impact for the company, so I really want to bring that to you guys, and there's just this small...relatively small thing about salary. So how can we make it work? Ramit Sethi: So let me tell you what I'm thinking just as an average viewer watching this. Susan Su: Mm-hmm. Ramit Sethi: I'm thinking like—first of all: I mean, Susan, didn’t that sound a little cocky, like you're saying: oh, I can bring huge value to this company and help you make a lot...I mean, isn't that like too arrogant to say in an interview? Susan Su: No. Ramit Sethi: Hell no! Susan Su: Hell no. Ramit Sethi: You need to be promoting yourself ten times more than most people do.


9

Susan Su: What is this? You know, you're like not going there to talk to your mom and dad, or something. Ramit Sethi: It's not like setting up a date for a polka dance. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: You're trying to make money and the company is trying to make money off you. Susan Su: Exactly! And one more thing about this, if you were talking to your mom, you never have to sell yourself, because she thinks you're the greatest person in the world, automatically. If you are talking to a recruiter or somebody who is going to hire you, maybe your future boss, they don’t give a crap about how great your mom thinks you are. Ramit Sethi: Yes. Susan Su: They need to know why you stand out versus all of their average Joes, the people who aren’t talking about their value. It's a great opportunity. The more you tell people how great you are, the more they will think how great you are. Ramit Sethi: And what I liked about what you did was—you didn’t just brag about how great you were, you actually said: you know, I've got a lot of experience, I want to help YOU do X, Y, Z—your strategic goal. So you're like—yeah, we know that this company is doing great, and we know that I'm pretty experienced and it would be great to be able to bring us together. So you are actually talking about helping that company, not about how great you are and just bragging. Susan Su: And I think the more you can shift it to: this is really about helping the company to succeed, helping your employer to succeed, how can they say no? Ramit Sethi: Exactly! Susan Su: How can they say... Ramit Sethi: It's like—I love puppies, oh! Susan Su: Well – no – it's like the company is saying, I don’t want to grow revenue. I don’t want you and I don’t want to grow revenue. If you position it that way, then it actually becomes virtually impossible to say no to.


10

Ramit Sethi: I love that—virtually impossible to say no to you. If you tell me, I'm the recruiter—if you tell me like: I've done this similar thing at this other, very large company, and we were able to increase whatever by a huge percent and now this company has got a similar challenge, and if we were to succeed in our challenge, we would make a gazillion dollars. I mean, does that extra $10,000...it looks like nothing to me... Susan Su: Yeah, yeah. Ramit Sethi: It's taking a risk on someone who has already mitigated most of my risk. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: So okay, that’s a very good principle. Alright, so what else do we have? Susan Su: Let us think about that for a second, if you're looking for a job, or you're trying to get multiple thousands – or over $10,000 in a raise or even more than that, it's all the more important to focus on how you're going to impact the long-term strategy and how you're going to perform above expectations. So you can also say—and this is a tactic that I've used very successfully. You can say: look, that’s great—70K is...I saw on Salary.Com that 70K was the average, median price for this job, and that’s great, but you know what, I'm not going to be your average or median employee in this role. Ramit Sethi: I love that. Susan Su: In this role, I'm going to be excellent, and I know that because of this whole portfolio of previous work, we have these facts, we've discussed it, blah-blah-blah. We know that I'm going to be performing at least 50 percent, above, or however much above. I'm going to be exceeding your expectations. We already know that I would do great in this role. I just want to make sure that it's fair. Ramit Sethi: It's fair—very good, how can you argue with fairness? Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: You can't argue with that. What you just said was: look, if you want an average performer, then you can probably find a lot of them at this average salary, but you are not looking for an average performer,


11

I'm not looking for an average job. And how can someone argue with that? Susan Su: Right! Ramit Sethi: And what you're just aligning them with is saying: look, you say you're looking for a top performer—now pay for one; and I will be your top performer. I've demonstrated it in the past. If you haven't demonstrated it, you need to demonstrate it now—and go forward with the negotiating, but you are a top performer and you expect to be compensated accordingly. Susan Su: Right; nobody is going to say no to somebody who says: look, all I want is to exceed your expectations. I know from my past experience that I can do that, and when I am doing that, I would love to have this relationship be fair. Ramit Sethi: Yes, that’s good. Susan Su: Which, you know, this reminds me of another tactic—kind of a basic one, but I think it's really important. Ramit Sethi: Okay. Susan Su: I think it's really important to smile a lot. Ramit Sethi: Yes—yes! Susan Su: And to smile, especially when you're saying stuff like: I'm going to be an excellent performer, and we already know that. We already know I'm going to bring a lot of value to this company, and so I just want to make it fair. Ramit Sethi: So I remember talking about this two years ago and I told you to smile more, but the trick is—especially for women you have to careful. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: Because women tend to over-smile, and it actually takes the authority away from them. So you have to smile at the appropriate times and not over-smile. You have to be strategic about your smiling. I will tell you that I learned this myself when I was in high school. So as people know—I applied to 70 scholarships, because I'm a big weirdo, and I started getting these interviews. So I'm going to these interviews, and I was like—I like to think, I was pretty articulate back then, but I went into


12

one after the other, after the other, and I kept losing. I would not get a lot of them, and I'm like—something has got to be wrong, because I saw some of the people that won. I knew some of them, and I'm like: these screwballs, I will dominate them. So I didn’t know what was going on, and then I'd done some practice interviews, and it just wasn’t going right. I finally figured out the one key that let get me get in, and it was smiling. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: Once I started smiling it was... It diffuses problems, it diffuses any tension that you bring into it—you say like—let me give you two examples, and I'd look right the camera and say: why are you the best for this scholarship? [non-smiling] Well you know, I've demonstrated that I'm really, really interested in entrepreneurship, and when I go to college I want to be the top performer in entrepreneurship, I really want to make a huge difference. Okay, so that’s the non-smiling, very serious. And then the other would be like: Look, I've actually demonstrated entrepreneurship in the past and that has been a huge source of inspiration for me, because I've been able to help a lot more people than I would have been able to help just sitting writing in my room, but thing is—when I go to college, I really want to be able to impact...you know, take it from 10 people to 100,000—that is what I want to be able to do and so I'm hoping that with a scholarship I think I'll be able to really influence like a tremendous amount of people. Do you see the difference in that? Susan Su: Yeah, and I think when it comes to negotiation, you are going to be put in some...you're going to have some uncomfortable moments. You are going to have to do a little bit of what normal people might think is bragging, or being aggressive or cocky, or whatever—and just asking for stuff. That’s the name of this book here: Ask for It; you are asking for stuff. I think the key with smiling strategically, is to smile when you are going to ask for something. Ramit Sethi: Yeah, and you guys—smiling is a natural, biological human instinct that makes people lower all defenses. Stress, any kind of cognitive defenses—if you smile… I mean just look at some of the best actors...even just going to YouTube and search for like: Tom Cruise Interview, and watch him. Watch any professional actor, they are smiling all the time. Now I'll do this on TV as well, when I go on—it's like, as soon as that anchor comes on, boom, the smiles are all there.


13

You know, today we are being a little bit more serious because this was an educational thing, but I smile when I'm on the phone with a reporter, I smile when I'm on TV and it really makes a big difference. Susan Su: Right, so let's just try something really quick: I'm going to do two takes... Ramit Sethi: Awesome! Susan Su: I have a little negotiation line. Take 1 [non-smiling]: So, you know, I really appreciate you guys taking the time to talk to me, I think that, you know, this really can work, I know I'm going to perform really well in this job, and I just want to find a way to make it work for us. Take 2 [smiling]: You know, I really appreciate the time you guys are taking to talk to me. I'm really excited about this job, I know that I'm going to do great in that, and I just want to find a way to make it work, and make sure that it's fair, and that we are both happy with what we walk away with. Ramit Sethi: It's a huge difference, and I'm just watching you—a huge, huge difference. Susan Su: Yeah, absolutely! Ramit Sethi: In fact, as your recruiter, what I'm thinking is: when you did the first one, I was really bored, and all I was thinking: how am I going to crush this girl when I give her a salary, and I'm just thinking like you're inexperienced, you're naïve and you're nervous. Susan Su: Yeah. Ramit Sethi: Professionals can smell it, that’s what they're trained to do, they can smell when you're nervous, and when you're nervous...okay, I'll just give you this as an example; and this is multiple, true examples. So I'll take it from both sides of the equation. When I have been recruiting people, or when I have been finding...you know, working with clients that potentially want to hire me to do something—so I can smell them on the phone—even on the phone, and I'm thinking like—sweet, I just saved $3,000 because you just said that phrase– oh, make it $4,000... Susan Su: Yeah.


14

Ramit Sethi: And then, on the other hand, someone had been talking to me and I can tell if they want to hire me to do something—and I'm like: oh I'll put out certain key words—little hooks for them to dive into, and they will be like: well you know, that would so important, and one thing that I really need is somebody to just help me come up with an overarching strategy—and I'm like: 20 percent boost right there, my rate just went up 20 percent, and that’s the way it works. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: And you know what, I will deliver that 20 percent value to you, but the price just went up, and you can think that as a candidate because you are listening to these recruiters who are pros but they also make mistakes. Susan Su: Mm-hmm. Ramit Sethi: And they’ll let certain thing out, and maybe this brings us to another principle of doing your research, which too many idiots do not do, but if you do your research better than anyone else, and you go in as a candidate, you put out little fish hooks, they will say something and you'll say: it's funny you mentioned that—your moving into that direction because at my past job I did boom-boom-boom and all of a sudden the recruiter is seeing gold, and is there saying: oh my god. I could be...like, I'd get a promotion because I brought in this superstar into the company. Susan Su: Right, so let's talk a little bit about—do your research, and a tactic—it's really, really important so do your research. I'll just start with a quick little story—when I worked at Google, I would be...our team members were...we were always growing our teams. I would talk to a manager about—doing interviews and that kind of thing - bringing in new people. We would always discuss the candidates, just you know, like kind of casual discussions. Sometimes it would be official. Sometimes they would be over lunch. The number one thing that gets people really irked about a candidate is when they mess up one of the product names, or they just made a tiny mistake about the company. They don’t know that it's called, Google Docs, and not Google Text, or whatever it is—and it's so small, right, but you could spend five minutes on the company page and find out that information, but if you don’t do it, people will judge you immediately, and discard you.


15

Ramit Sethi: This is what I wrote about on my site, I call it the Craigslist Penis Effect... Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: Which I hope my mom never, ever go there—and I wrote that because you know, one thing that women know, if they go on Craigslist and they post something, they get like 50 pictures of penises, and I don’t know why, it is what it is. And so as a guy, if you're responding to like a woman saying like: I would like to meet someone interesting, or whatever—you can just write like, even the most basic, plain English, normal thing, and you are already better than 90 percent of the idiot guys. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: You are better than the idiot penis-guys, and that same is true of interviewing, I mean, the Craigslist Penis Effect is in effect in interviews because everyone else is so horrible that by doing your homework, you just automatically will standout. So doing your homework—everyone is like: oh, yeah, I know that—like okay. No you do not know. Susan Su: You do not know. Ramit Sethi: Let's talk about examples, because remember, Susan knew a lot about negotiating, she even read a book which no one does, and even still made some strategic mistakes. But homework is something that everyone thinks that they all have done. Yeah, I went to the homepage, I clicked "About"... Susan Su: Yeah, but that’s like—hell no. Ramit Sethi: Tell us what you did? Susan Su: Alright, if you spend 30 minutes looking at a homepage before your phone interview and you think you can do research on that company, I'm not going to hire you, I can tell. I can tell that you don’t really know what's going on. I can tell you haven't read the press articles. I can tell you haven't gone on to page 2 of the Google search results for my company, and that’s also what you should be doing, not only reading all of the collateral on the company's website, which is marketing about the company—that’s the company talking about themselves. You also need to read everything that other people are saying about the company.


16

Not only so you can look good when it comes to interview time, but also just for your own information. You need to know what you're getting into when you're starting a job. You need to know. It can help you in everything from how much can this company afford to pay me, what's the job potential, is this company making a ton of money this year, or are they kind of not doing so well, so they're looking for somebody to turn that around. These are all the things that will help to bolster your strategy. Yes, so I can't overemphasize how important research is, I would go on LinkedIn, find out information about every single member of the leadership team, find out information about your recruiter, about the other recruiters... Ramit Sethi: Good point! Susan Su: And just try to like do investigative research on every single person you can find who works with that company. Ramit Sethi: So when I have friends that ask me for help with interviewing, I'm thrilled to help people, but nowadays I'm only thrilled to help people that are actually going to do what I say. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: Just get out of my way if you're not going to listen, just get the hell out of here. I don’t have time for someone...now this is what happens, like it's so common, they're like—oh, Ramit, I heard something about negotiating like an Indian, can you help me? And I'm like—alright, and I put up a small barrier. I'd say something like—why don’t you come meet me for breakfast at 8:00 am near my house, something like that—maybe 6:00 am or whatever—it's no big deal. And I’ll see what will they do with that small barrier, and then most of them—some of them will and some of them will not—but if they do, then here are some of the things that I would tell them that they need to do if they really want to crush in this interview. All the things you’ve said, looking on LinkedIn, have you looked up the competitive analysis, so what I as a hiring manager is going to say, I'm going to say: who are my competitors, and how should I be thinking about them? Alright, if you don’t know that, it's not a deal breaker, but it is one mark against you, and you know why—because any top performer would know that. They would know exactly—they would say: well there are four other collaboration suites, and these ones are moving into the enterprise world,


17

these are staying consumer, and this one is actually looking to go more desktop. It's really surprising. And I'm like—shit, this person is like—I'm not going to screw with them, I'm like—plus 10 percent on the salary right there—I mean right there, that right there could add thousands of dollars—that answer alone. So do a competitive analysis. Mine your network. If you are going to go work in a company, you need to talk to people who have already worked there, and left, if possible, because they will always give you more honest feedback. So if I were going to go work at Google, I would talk to you and say like: Susan, what do I need to know, and you're going to tell me: well this group is impossible to get a job at, and this one underpays, but this one is a sweet spot. And why? Because you have all these coworkers and a rich sense of knowledge. Talking with coworkers at the company can work if they are your good friends, they will often tell you some stuff that you can't get publicly, but they're also going to lie... Susan Su: A lot. Ramit Sethi: Because they work at the company. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: And like I could work at a job I hate, and if you're telling me...what do you think I'm going to say—it's great! Because I don’t want to admit to myself that I'm working in a job... Susan Su: That you hate your job. Ramit Sethi: Yeah, so you have to like take it with a grain of salt. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: The point is—get off your ass and go talk to people and get the intelligence, they will tell you things that could make or break your interview at a top level—giving you a 10 percent bonus. They will tell you: you know, we are talking about this on our front page, but actually the company is moving into this area. Very interesting, because when I go to the interview now, I'm going to tell the hiring manager, that you know, some of the trends in see in the industry are boom-boom-boom, and all of a sudden you look really smart.


18

Susan Su: Absolutely! And you can actually get that kind of information even if you don’t have an in with the company. If you do the right kind of research, and really read between the lines of everything that you see, read all of the...you know, go on Google News Alerts, and search News for the Company name. Don’t just do Google search, because a Google search stuff is going to be fine, but a lot of it is just going to be the stuff that they’ve put out. Go on News and see what other people have said, and really dig deep and think hard about what are this company's weaknesses and how can I... Ramit Sethi: Oh, yeah. Susan Su: It sounds kind of bad, but how can I exploit those in my negotiation. Because if you say: hey, I see that you guys may be looking to improve in this area, and it's perfect because I actually am great at improving in this area—then that automatically boosts your worth. Ramit Sethi: It's like when you know you have a personal weakness and someone comes to you and says: you know what...like a close friend that’s going to offer you constructive feedback and you're not defensive about it... or you're a small business person, that’s a better example. So if someone comes to me and they're like: Ramit, like one thing I noticed on your blog, is you're just...your SEO client could a little bit better, and honestly I'm like: actually yeah, I suck at SEO and I don’t really know anything about it. And they're like: well you know, I've got this friend that’s amazing at it. Or I can help you with some stuff, let me just help you out. Wow! I'm like: you found my vulnerability in a nice constructive way and you gave me a solution. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: And as a busy business person that’s all I want. I don’t care about your complaining, I don’t care about what you think you're worth, I want solutions—and if you can offer me a solution then the money is trivial. Susan Su: Exactly, and that, again, goes back to separating yourself from the commodity. Ramit Sethi: Yeah, yeah—so if you don’t...like we just put a lot of things you should do for research, if you don’t know what...even what questions to ask, then the people to coach you are either some of your friends who are a little bit more experienced in their careers, ask them like: hey, what


19

homework should I be doing, especially anyone who has worked in an industry like management consulting or investment banking, anything where there's kind of these elite-level careers—ask your friends there if you have some. If not ask a mentor. If you don’t have a mentor, you know, you can go online, go to my site, go to another site and post a question, because a lot of times you will get great feedback—and LinkedIn is a great place to ask. Susan Su: Or even be like me and just pick the first blogger you find in the New York Times. Ramit Sethi: [LAUGHS] Oh, yeah, yeah. Susan Su: And spend a few minutes crafting an email to them. Ramit Sethi: Well your email was actually...so that’s a good example, let's talk about that for a second, because you I'd do your homework when you researched me, so your email said like: I'm from Stanford—so automatically I'm like: oh, this person is smart. I work at Google; I'm like—oh, you know, I had an offer from Google. And then you talked about some other things that really hit home with me, and so you are systematically doing research every step of the way—that’s what you did. Susan Su: Yeah, I'm also from Sacramento, and I like corn nuts, too. Ramit Sethi: [LAUGHS] Freaking stalker. Susan Su: So, yes, I think that’s really important you should never walk into a situation blindfolded, and so many people think that they can just go in, talk about themselves, and wing it. But at an interview and also in negotiation, it's not really about yourself. You should make it about the other party and about their needs. Especially if in a negotiation, the more you can make it about the other party's needs and how you are going to be able to fulfill those and can they help you to do that by, you know, giving you the salary you want—the more they're going to be like: oh, yeah, this person is actually here to try and help me. Ramit Sethi: Yes! Susan Su: Why should I stand in the way? Ramit Sethi: That’s right, and it will make me look bad to prevent this company from getting Susan onboard, because she's going to help me, she's like a doctor for this company—we need to her to heal me. Susan Su: Right.


20

Ramit Sethi: Okay, so finally—rounding out this tactical part of the series, when we talked I made you write down a ton of stuff. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: So what was the other thing, about people that come and they ask for advice—like take out a goddamn notebook and write down what I'm saying—okay. It shows me that you are actually valuing what advice I'm giving you, and people...like I'll give them...if I start giving them 30 minutes of deep tactics and they're not writing anything down, I'm like—you're wasting my time, because you're not going to remember this stuff, this is amazing stuff that’s going to make you a lot of money—write it down, you're going to forget, and this is the whole mentality of like: oh, yeah, yeah—okay great. No, write it down, the point is to practice this later. Now you, to your credit, you brought a notepad and you actually wrote down like very detailed notes, right? Susan Su: Yeah, and I actually...I was looking around my apartment and I realized that I still have the notebook. Ramit Sethi: I love it. Susan Su: So here it is, I've got my toolbox of phrases, straight from Ramit, such as: What does success look like to you? How do you think we can make this work? I want to come back to value—"we" is very important, so it's about "we", not me versus you, it's about "we"—together. Ramit Sethi: Absolutely! Susan Su: I want to be measured, I want to achieve results quickly, and I want to perform above expectations. How can you help me to do that at your company? I want to excel, and how can we make it fair? Ramit Sethi: This is like music to my ears. Who said this? Susan Su: Straight from the horse’s mouth. So yeah, I have my concepts here. I have tons of step-by-step notes. I went home and I studied this. I actually brought this notebook with me when I was commuting to the interview, you know, really memorizing everything, and if I hadn’t written it down, there is no way I would have retained it, or even a fraction.


21

Ramit Sethi: Yeah, you would have remembered the high level - like focus on results...and that’s not an interview—it's a carefully orchestrated dance. Susan Su: Oh, absolutely! And having the actual phrases... Ramit Sethi: Oh, yeah. Susan Su: I mean, I use these phrases verbatim, and so I can tell you now—writing it down, like, yeah, it's nice for the other person to feel like their words are being valued, et cetera, what Ramit just said—but for me, I had a script and I made myself the script beforehand and I made sure that not only did we practice it, but I memorized my script, so that when it came show time, and you get nervous, you're sitting at this conference table with, you know, three old guys who are there to basically...their number one goal of the day is to lowball you... Ramit Sethi: Yeah! Susan Su: Then, you know, you need all the scripts you can get, because it's really hard to think on the fly in that situation. Ramit Sethi: Absolutely! So, you know, one of the reasons people like the I Will Teach You to Be Rich scripts is that they don’t have to think about, and that was exactly the point—you read these scripts and you have proven success. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: Well let me put it this way—when I go into negotiation I have all the basics in my toolbox handled so well, that I've just got phrases, I know the competitive intelligence, I know everything. I have to focus on my challenge, honestly, and you can tell this from the video right now, I don’t naturally smile that much. Susan Su: Right. Ramit Sethi: So I can focus all my energy on like smiling, and being totally in the moment. Versus, like what happens with most people is, they have to focus on like—retrieving these phrases from their head or creating them on the fly... Susan Su: So their face looks like... Ramit Sethi: They're like: aaahhh! Let's do some value—fuck.


22

Susan Su: [LAUGHS] Ramit Sethi: Like I don’t know how they have any cognitive resources, we are all cognitive misers, and I can only focus on certain things, so I want to practice so much that I'm like, you know, I'm like a Marine, I've got muscle memory on how to put this rifle together—muscle memory. So do not think that simply reading one book will do it. You need to practice. Susan Su: Absolutely! And that was my biggest lesson. You know, I read the cover-to-cover, and still failed when it came to my first negotiation conversation. I really felt bad about that and, you know, I went to Ramit, and yeah, the practicing sucked, I was really tired, I think I had to go to the bathroom the entire time the entire time, and simultaneously was thirsty. Ramit Sethi: I like that I caused you misery. Susan Su: It was four hours long, but you know what, it was completely worth it. There is no way that I would have known to push myself to practice like that had it not been for Ramit, and I think that’s a big takeaway too, is practice, practice, practice, practice—and do it in front of a mirror. I know it's weird to talk in front of the mirror, but who cares—just do it. Ramit Sethi: With that, let's pause and I want to do another little bit on some common mistakes that people make with negotiation, and honestly there are about a thousand, so maybe we should just pick the first top five and address what mistakes people make. A lot of it is not the technical stuff. The technical stuff, it's fine—a lot of it is just up here, it's mental, it's putting yourself in the right mindset, and then there are a couple of technical mistakes that people make as well. So let's talk about that next time. Susan Su: Alright. Ramit Sethi: Thanks, guys. [END OF PART TWO]

ramit susan negotiate pt2

Documents

susan su salary negotiation

im ramit sethi

tactics ramit sethi

im susan su

real negotiation

negotiation emergency

minimum salary

role play