project camelot interview with dane tops

8/2/2019 Project Camelot Interview With Dane Tops

http://slidepdf.com/reader/full/project-camelot-interview-with-dane-tops 1/52

ProjectCamelot|InterviewwithDaneTops•VIDEOINTERVIEWS•VIDEOINTERVIEWS•SPECIALREPORTS•SPECIALREPORTS•AUDIOINTERVIEWS•AUDIOINTERVIEWSTheBarcelonaConferenceTheBarcelonaConferenceTheBrusselsConferenceTheBrusselsConferenceTheLosAngelesConferenceTheLosAngelesConferenceTheZurichConferenceTheZurichConferenceCamelotLiveatVilcabambaCamelotLiveatVilcabambaAaronMcCollumAaronMcCollumNEW:THEANGLO-SAXONMISSIONNEW:THEANGLO-SAXONMISSIONBenjaminFulfordBenjaminFulfordDrBillDeagleDrBillDeagleBillHamiltonBillHamiltonBillHoldenBillHoldenBillRyanandKerryCassidyBillRyanandKerryCassidyBobDeanBobDeanBoriskaBoriskaDrBrianO'LearyDrBrianO'LearySgt.CliffordStoneSgt.CliffordStoneDanBurischDanBurischDanShermanDanShermanDaneTopsDaneTopsDavidCorsoDavidCorsoDavidIckeDavidIckeDavidWilcockDavidWilcockDuncanO'FinioanDuncanO'FinioanElizabethNelsonElizabethNelsonErichvonDänikenErichvonDänikenGaryMcKinnonGaryMcKinnonGeorgeGreenGeorgeGreenGordonNovelGordonNovel'HenryDeacon''HenryDeacon'JaneBürgermeisterJaneBürgermeisterJamesfromWingmakersJamesfromWingmakersJimHumbleJimHumbleJimMarrsJimMarrsJimSparksJimSparksJohnLearJohnLearJohnRobieJohnRobieJosephFarrellJosephFarrellKlausDonaKlausDonaLeoZagamiLeoZagamiDrLenHorowitzDrLenHorowitzLucaScantamburloLucaScantamburloMarciaSchaferMarciaSchaferMiriamDelicado

MiriamDelicado'Mr.X',theUFOarchivist'Mr.X',theUFOarchivistPatrickGerylPatrickGerylPeterLevendaPeterLevendaDrPetePetersonDrPetePetersonDrPaulLaVioletteDrPaulLaVioletteRalphRingRalphRingRicardoSilvaRicardoSilvaRichardHoaglandRichardHoaglandDrStevenGreerDrStevenGreerTheCrystalSkullTheCrystalSkullTonyDoddTonyDoddWadeFrazierWadeFrazierAninterviewwith'DaneTops':ThemanwhoblewtheChurchofScientologywideopen

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ProjectCamelotinterviewsDaneTopsLosAngeles,September2009SomeofyoumayhavereadonourQuestionspagethatI(Bill)haveexperienceinanoffshootoftheoriginalChurchofScientology.ButIwasutterlysurprisedwhenalegendarywhistleblowerintheChurchofScientologyintroducedhimselftomeandtoldmethatwhat

hehadtosharehadsomethingtodowithBlackOperations.Kerry,whohasneverstudiedScientology,agreedthatthiswhistleblowerwasverymuchintheranksofregularCamelotwhistleblowers.Wedecidedtodoaninterview.So:webringyouDaneTops-analmostmythicalfigureinScientologyhistorywhohasneverbeforecomeforwardtotellhisstory-whichisextraordinaryevenbyCamelotstandards:allabouthowtheChurchofScientologywastakenoverintheearly1980s,andthecourageousandastonishingwayinwhichDaneblewthewhistle,



whichresultedintensofthousandsofmembersrealizingwhatwasgoingon-andleaving.Putthecoffeeon(alotofit!),readcarefully,andEnjoy._____________ Theunusualname‘DaneTops’isapseudonym,butitisnotofProjectCamelot’smaking.Thisfascinatingstorydatesbackto1982,whenaseniormemberintheChurchofScientologyblewthewhistleonitsactivities…whichoverthepreviousseveralyearshadbecomemoreandmoretotalitarianandrepressive:afarcryfromhowitsfounder,LRonHubbard,hadintendedthingstobe-thetechniquesastheywereonceappliedbeingdescribedtousbyDaneasavast,readilyaccessiblearrayofpowerfultechniquesforliberatingandempoweringthehumanspiritsothatallmankindcouldbenefit.Thenow-famous“DaneTopsletter”or“DaneTopsdebrief”describeshowtheChurchofScientology,overanumberofyears,wasbeingtakenoverbyamysteriousforce,andhowHubbardwasdeliberatelymarginalizedmalignedandremovedfromdirectcontrolofhisorganization–whileinstructionsapparentlyoriginatingbyhimwerefabricatedwithfalsesignatures:neverwrittenbyHubbardatall.AwaretherewasahiddenpartytakingScientologydown,DaneTopsblewthewhistle:hetypedoutaninspired,detailed,9500wordpresentation–and,longbeforethedaysofe-mail,copieditandposteditto20people.Tohissurprise,achainreactionensuedand

the‘letter’wascopied,recopied,andrecopiedagain.Intoday’sterminology,it‘wentviral’.DuringthenextyearitreachedandchangedthelivesoftensofthousandsofloyalScientologistswho-untiltheyreadDaneTops’analysis-couldnotunderstandwhatwashappeningtoHubbardandtotheorganizationtowhichtheyhaddedicatedtheirlives.The‘letter’catalyzedamassexodusofthousandsofhighlytrained,talentedandloyalScientologists:inDaneTops'ownwords,thesepeopleweretheveryfinest:thebestofthebest.Theyleft‘theChurch’,manyofthemstartingtheirowngroupstocontinueto

delivertheoriginaltechniqueswhichHubbardhadspent30yearsdeveloping.Danerelateshowthe‘blackPRcampaign’tomalignHubbardworkedbothonthepublicingeneralandonthedisenfranchisedScientologists,asstoryafterstorywasspreadtodiscreditHubbard’sintentionsandwork.Manyofthose‘lifeboat’groupsthusfailed,butasmallnumbersucceededandquietlycontinuetothisdayaslow-profilebutsubstantialorganizations.InSeptember2009,werecordedanextraordinaryaudiointerviewwithDaneTops,whohassincebecomeapassionatesupporterofeverything

weatProjectCamelotstandfor.We’vereleasedthisasatranscriptonly,becauseDane’slifecouldquiteeasilystillbeendangered.Inthisinterview,DanetellsthetruestoryofthetakedownofScientology.HedescribesthepowerofHubbard’stechniques,which,whenappliedethicallyandbyproperlytrainedpractitioners,reliablyenhancepsychicandotherabilitiestodramaticlevels:heexplainshowthegovernmentsandintelligenceagenciesofRussiaand



theUSbecamedeterminedtoutilizethesetechniquestotheirownunethicalends:herecountshowHubbardwasthetargetofaconcentratedblackoperation-compromised,disempowered,andhow‘theChurch’wasinfiltratedandtakenover:herevealshowheevadedeveryattemptof‘TheChurch’tostophim:andheshareshowhestillseesHubbard’stechniques,correctlyapplied,asoneofthemeanswherebywecanescapetheattemptedgripandcontroloftheveryIlluminatithatendedupincontrolofScientologyinapositiontowaterdownitstechniquestoamereshadowofwhatDanedescribesthattheyoncewere.Almostinpassing,DaneshareswhathenowbelieveswasanETcontact,coupledwithadeepunderstandingofHubbard’sbasicprinciples,enabledhimin1982togowithoutfood,waterandsleepforthreemonths-andthatduringthatperiodHubbard’stechniquespreparedhimtounderstandandfurtherdeveloptheinformationhereceivedatthattime.HedescribesfellowScientologistswhoalsohadvariousenhancedcapacities.Onesuchwasthewell-knownIngoSwann,whoseabilitieswerehonedtothepointwherehe,withseveralotherScientologistsincludingHalPuthoff,RussellTargandfellow-psychicPatPrice,waseventuallyfundedbytheCIAand-undertheauspicesoftheStanfordResearchInstitute-launchedtheentirebodyofknowledge,

abilityandprotocolthatisnowknownworldwideasRemoteViewing.So:DaneTopsisatruewhistleblower,takinguponhimselfgreatpersonalrisktoalertandinformanyonewhowouldlistentothetruthofwhatwashappening.‘TheChurch’–whichhassignificantfinancialresourcesandanentireprivate,sophisticated,andsometimesveryruthlessintelligenceandsecurityapparatusofitsown-spentatleast$40,000tryingtotrackdownDaneTopsandsealtheleak.Meanwhile,DaneTopsregardsthetruewhistleblowerasHubbard

himself-andmaintainsthathisownonlyrolewastomakeitknownthatHubbardwasbeingtakendown.HetoldusthatHubbardwasawhistleblowerontheIRS,theAMA,onthePsychiatriccommunity,andprimarilyon“thefactthatweareaprisonplanetwiththetruesecretofouridentityintentionallyandforcefullywithheldfrommankind”.Hubbard,hestates,wasdrivenbytheconceptthatwithouttechniquestorestoremankind’smemoryofhisactivitieswithinthisgalaxyoverlongperiodsoftime,historywouldrepeatitselfandthecivilizationonEarthwouldbedestroyedbycriminals.The‘Church’neverdiscoveredwhoDaneTopswas.ButthegovernmentsucceededinstoppingScientologyandRonHubbard-andeffectively

watereddownitstechniques.Duringthe27yearswhichfollowed‘theletter’,DaneTopsentrustedhistrueidentitywithjusttwoofhisclosestfriends.WhenwewereapproachedbyhimattheLosAngelesConsciousLifeExpoearlierthisyear(February2009),webecamethethirdandfourthpersonstoknow.Weweredelightedandastonished,andwemarveledatthisremarkableperson’sintegrity,courageandresolve.HisethicsandintentionsareidenticalwiththoseofProjectCamelot.Weareproudtoknowhim.



StartofinterviewDaneTops[D]:IwantedtosaythatIhavehardlyeverrunintoanyonewhogotinvolvedwiththissubject-oroffshootsofthissubject-after1975,whodidn’thaveanythingbutaverybadopiniontowardtheChurchofScientology.Personally,IbelievethatbeforeI(quote)“blewthewhistle”theplacewasalreadycompletelyinfiltratedbytheIlluminati.Theirintentionwastoproduceexactlythatresult(averybadopinion)onthegeneralpublic.TheChurchwasfullycorruptedandmadeamockeryofwhatitwasintendedtobeandstartedouttobe.Goalaccomplished.ThereasonitwasinfiltratedbytheIlluminatiisbecauseofthemindcontroltechniquesthatcouldbedevelopedfromthe1950bookthatRonHubbardpublished,andsoonafterbecauseoftheparanormalabilitiesthatHubbard’stechniqueswereproducing.TheIlluminatithoughtitcouldnotallowhumanitytodiscovertheirtrueinnatepowersandability.Inthe50s,thoseabilitieswerevirtuallyunheardof.Today,therearedozensofunderstandingsinthegeneralpublicthatwerenot

extantthen.IbelievethatHubbard’sdiscoveriesandtechniquesfiltereddownintoliterallyhundredsofsubjectsfromblackops(directmindcontrolusedfordarkpurposes)ontopersonaltherapies,selfhelporganizations,newreligions,cultsandintogeneralmedicalliteraturenowconsideredstandardknowledge.Inthe’40sHubbarddiscoveredanddemonstratedthatthereisnomemorythatcannotberecovered.Thatwasstartlingandunbelievable.AtthattimehedevelopedtechniquestohavepeoplerecallmemoriesthatoccurredatbirthANDfromconceptiononwards.Memorieswereverifiedforaccuracywith,forinstance,thedoctoratbirth.Orwiththeparentsforincidentsthathappenedduringthepregnancy.Hedevelopedtechniquesthatallowedanybodytorecall

anythingintheirhistorywithalittlework.We’renottalkingaboutimagination;we’retalkingaboutliterallyverifiedbirthandwombmemory:fullconversations,andexactevents.Now,hedidthisworkinthe’40s,andhewroteaboutitinabookcalledDianetics,aModernScienceofMentalHealthin1950.Thebookwasabestseller.RussiatriedtocontactandhirehimandthereasonRussiawantedhimwasbecausetheyrecognizedthatthetechniquesinthatbookcouldbereversedsothattheycoulddeveloppsychicwarfareandmindcontroltechniques.TheRussiansrealizedthattheoutofbodyperceptionsthatHubbardwasdevelopingcouldbeusedtospyandcollectinformationfrom

remotelocations.TheRussianssawthatthepowerofthemindcouldbefocusedremotelytoinfluencethethoughtsofothersatadistance.Russiastartedtestingtheirchildrenanddevelopingtheoneswiththemostskills.TheUSfollowed.AfterCamelot,Inowrealizethatatthattime-inthe50s-wehadjustrecoveredETbodiesincrasheddisks.InowseetheRussiansandtheUSAwereinterestedinHubbard’stechniquesnotduetomutualanimosity,butbecausethegovernmentswerereallyscaredabouttheETproblem.Ifthey’dtoldHubbardwhatwasgoingon,he



wouldhavebeenhappytohelpandwouldhavedonealotbetterjobofitthanourgovernmentsdid.HubbardalreadyknewmoreabouttheETsthanthegovernmentsdid,becausepeoplewererecoveringmemoriesofmanyvariousracesofETs,ofinterplanetarywarsorpriorearthhistoriesofwars,ofintelligentrobots,clones,cyborgs-younameit.ButRussiawantedtouseHubbard’smaterialwithoutTELLINGhimwhatwashappeningwiththeinfluxofcrasheddisksandrecoveredETbodiesthatescalatedimmediatelyfollowingthebombingofHiroshima.Bytheearly60s,Hubbardwasteachingthegeneralpublicopenlyabouthisindependentdiscoverythatthisuniversewasheavilypopulatedwithintelligentlifeandvariouslifeformsandbodytypes.ThecrashedaliendiskswouldhavebeenSOP[StandardOperatingProcedure]tohim.Hecouldhavereallyassistedthegovernmentstodoalotbetterjobofit,ratherthantoscrewuptheentirethemeofcontactthewayithasbeen.HewouldnothavebeentechnicallyoverwhelmedbytheETs.Hewouldhavesentoutambassadorstoaccesstheirintent,andthesewouldhavebeenpeoplewhohadaccessedtheirownmemoriesaboutthevariousracespopulatingtheuniverseandwhoweregettingre-acquaintedwiththeirhistory.Russianeffortstohirehimwereintense.Hewaspresumedtobesomeonewhocouldbeutilizedtodevelopanynumberofpsychic

abilities,warfareabilitiesandspyingabilities.TheUSversusRussiacoldwarwasnotrealexcepttothelowerlevelpeople.Itwasadistractionforthepublic.Allthistime,UFOswerefreelyinfiltratingUSandRussianairspace.TheentirecoldwarwasafrontandactuallytheUSandRussiawereunitedbehindthescenes,atthetop,infightingandattemptingto“catchup”withthefearedcommonunknownpotentialenemy,theETs.Sotheintenttoprocurehimstartedinthe1950safterthebookwaspublished.Duringthe’50sHubbard’sprovablediscoveriesaboutthemind/body/spiritwereunheardof.Duringthattimethekindsofresultsthatwerebeingstandardlyproducedonpeople–myfriendhereamongstthem[Ed.note:presentattheinterview,anonymity

requested],whosawmanyofthesethings–wereanenhancementofwhatincommonlanguageisknownaspsychicorparanormalability.Somepeoplehadlevitated,somehadseenthroughsolidmatter,andothershadgoneoutsideoftheirbodywithfullperceptionofwheretheywere.WhentheRussiansfailedtohireHubbard,theybrokeinhishome,stolethematerial,andalteredthetechniquestobegintheRussianmindcontrolprogramswiththeUSAdoingthesamelater.Insteadofusinghistechniquestonaturallydeveloppsychicabilitiesandtorecallourpastlivesandin-betweenlifememoriesasHubbardintended,thegovernmentsextractedfromHubbard’sworkswhathe’ddiscoveredthathasbeendonedownthroughtimetocontrolhumanbehaviorthroughforce.SothemodernsubjectofmindcontrolandManchurianCandidatesand

muchmorewasre-researchedanddevelopedtoafineartform.AsbestIknow,thetechniqueswerelargely“inspired”fromHubbard’smaterial.Isaythatbecausethetechniquesthathavebeenused,suchastheMontaukChair,aredescribedindetailinHubbard’swork.Thatsortofchairhasbeenuseddownthroughtimeandisinourmemoriesfromwayback.There’snothingnewunderthesun.We’veallbeenaroundforalongtime.Hubbardrecoveredfrommanypersonsthesamememoriesofhowtocontrolthemindbyforceandhypnosis.Hewantedtoundotheeffectsonallofusbytrainingaworld-widearmyofpeopleskilled



inhelpingmankindtorecovertheirmemoryofhavingaveilputovertheirmindstothepointthatwedonotknowourownpast.ItwasknownbyHubbardandcompletelyacknowledgedbythe’50sthatwewere,orthateachhumanwasaspiritualentity,notabody,noramind;thatallofanindividual’shistorywasrecordedinenergypatternsintheirbodycells,butalsoaroundtheirbodies,whichhedefinedastheMind.Hediscoveredanewthatmankindgoesforwardfromlifetolifetolifeandmemoryrecordistakenforwardwiththespiritentityorsoulwhichiseachperson’scompleteself.ThateachpersonISasoulratherthanHASasoulwashisnewmajordefinitionofwhatmanIS.Inthe50s,thisdescriptionofthesoulwasnotcommon.OnethingHubbarddidprovethatwas...well…hewentonatriparoundtheworldtotestthathismemorywasaccurate.Hewenttodifferentlocationstoverifythatjustbyhisrecallthememoryoflocationshehadneverbeeninthislifewasaccurate.HubbardcameoutofanerawheretherewerepeoplecalledSpiritualistswhocontactedthedead.TherewerealotofséancesintheUS:ithadbecomealltherage.TherearenewspaperaccountsofsomeoneinEnglandinthe1860sdoingbodylevitationandflyingout

ofoneupperstorywindowandintoanotherone[Ednote:thiswasDanielDunglasHome].Blavatsky,aresearcherandauthorwhohadpsychicabilities,actuallykilledananimal40milesaway;that’sdocumentedandwitnessed.SoHubbardheardaboutallthesethingsduringtheerahegrewupin.Hewantedtofindouthowtheseabilitiescameabout,andwhattheexplanationforitwasandhowcomepeoplewerereportedtodothesethings.Hewantedtounderstanditscientifically.Hubbardresearchedhealingtechniquesanddiscoveredthattraumaandpaininourpastreallyaffectsusnegativelyandthatthoseeffects

canbereversedandthattheywerethecauseofallpsychosomaticillnessoraccidentsinaccident-pronepeople.Hisdiscoverieswerephenomenal.Thetechniquesforafullandtotalrecallofpast-lifememoriescamesoonafterwards.Then,theresearchtodeveloppsychicabilitiestothepointthatonecouldseethroughwallsandaccessalltheirpriorknowledge;doanynumberofpsychicphenomena;thesewerethekindsofthingsthatwerebeingdevelopedinthe’50sandearly60s.IngoSwannwaspartofthesameera.Hewasstillthereinthe’70swhenIwasinvolved,inLosAngeles,comingupthroughtheselevels.

BillRyan[B]:Whatdoyoumeanbylevels?D:Well,inScientology,theyhadgradesyouwentthroughwhereyouprogressedfromabilitytoabilitytoability,andsoIngoSwannwasgoingthroughthosegrades,thoselevels.TherewasamagazinethatwasputoutbytheChurchofScientologywherepeoplethatwentthroughtheselevelswouldwritethingsthattheyexperienced.AlmosteverymonthIngowasinthismagazinewithwhathehaddone



next,alongsideotherswhowerealsogettingthesesortsofresults.Peoplewhowouldreporttheirresults,suchasmovingacarsidewaystoavoidanautoaccident,seeingthroughwalls,goingoutofthebodywithalltheperceptiontoseeandhear,levitatingthemselves,makingthingsmaterialize,likethat[snapsfingers],healingachronicillnessorapersonalrelationshipthatseemedtohavebeenpermanentlydestroyed.Thereweresomeextraordinaryhealingstories.LaterhehadtoretractanyclaimsthatthetechniquescouldhealduetotheAMA[AmericanMedicalAssociation]andthepsyches[psychiatrists],withwhomheendedupinalifelongbattle.Atfirstheofferedhisdiscoveriestopsychiatry,untilherealizedthatmanypsychesjustwantedtodrugpeople,dolobotomiesanduseelectricshock.Thenheorganizedhisownblackopswithinhisorganizationinordertoexposeharmfulpsychiatricpracticeswithso-called“healing”techniques.HisorganizationspiedontheIRSandpublishedrecordsoftheircrimes.HesentinfiltratorsfromhisChurchintotheIRStospy.Theywerequitesuccessful.AlthoughthegovernmentshadnotsucceededinhiringHubbard,theydidhireScientologistswhohaddemonstratedparanormalabilities.

TheywerenothardtofindbecauseScientologypublishedarticlesaboutwhatpeoplewereachieving.Ingowashiredbythegovernment.Imean,hewenttoworkinaprogramattheStanfordResearchInstitutewithanumberofotherScientologiststostudyparanormalthings.IrememberreadinganSRIreportthattheywerehavingIngoheatupobjectsandmeasuringhowhothecouldmakethem.Andthatwasjustthestartofwhathecoulddo.WhatIngowasdoingwasnotdifferentfromthethingsthatalotofusweredoingasaresultofthetrainingandwhatHubbardnamedprocessing,orauditing.That’swhathecalledit.Hubbardoften

usedcomputertermsandtermsthatmadeitseemverymechanical.Butreallywhatweweredealingwithandwhatthediscoverywasthatweweredealingwithwasaspirit,aspiritualbeing,andthat’swhatweare;aspiritualbeing–animmortalspiritualbeingwithanynumberofgodlikeabilities.LaterIngobecamefamousasthefatherofremoteviewing,awatered-downwordforwhathewasactuallyabletodoandwhichmanyofusweredoing,whichwasn’t“remote”viewing–butitwasoutofbody:goingoutofyourbodywithperception,moreperceptionsometimesthanyouhadINyourbody.Thesetechniquescanbeusedto

keepdevelopingcontrolovertimeandultimatelycontroloverthedimensionthatyou’rein.Yes.B:SomebodyIknewdescribeditasmorelikeknowingwhateveryouwanttoknowbecauseyoudecideyouwanttoknow.That’sactuallywhatHubbardcoinedthewordScientologyas–it’sthestudyofknowinghowtoknow.D:Yes,knowinghowtoknow.Well,actually,hedidn’tcointheword.Youcanfindinthe’30sinaGermanbook“Scientologie”-spelleddifferently-withtherudimentaryversionofwhatbecametheScientologyAxioms[Ed.note:Scientologie,byDr.A.



Nordenholz,1934].Hubbarddiscoveredmanythingsonhisownbutheputtogetheramazingthings,like...Heendeduphavingtolieandsayhewasthesoledeveloperofitall,anunfortunatesolutionforaproblemhewashavingmanaginghisorganization.Iknewthepersonwhosuggestedthathelieandhowitcameaboutthathedid.Hehadstartedoutacknowledgingandgivingcredittomanyofhissources.Therewasnoturningbackafterheliedaboutit.KerryCassidy[K]:Somebodygavemethatbook.Scientologie.D:Youhaveit?K:Ihaveit,yes.D:I’dlovetoseethat.It’sgottheoriginalversionofabrilliantworkcalledTheAxiomsofScientology.Brilliantwork.There’sanotherworkhehascalledTheFactors,whichIfindeven...K:Ihaveit.D:I’dlovetoseethebook.Ihaven’tseenitinyears.K:It’shereinmylibrary.D:Great.B:Sure.Its“knowinghowtoknow”.Iwasjustmakingacommentthatitisaboutknowingnessratherthanacquiring...Acquiringdataislikealowerharmonicofthissortofknowingness,thatonecansortofpermeateanythingintheuniverseatanytimeandactually

extractthatinformationifone’soperatingatsufficiently–we’rerunningintoproblemsofvocabularyhere–atasufficientlevelofconsciousness,onecanacquireanddownloadthatinformation.D:Right.That’strue.Anotherwaytodoitistore-accessourownmemories.hat’sanotherwaytoknow.But,youknow,tosomedegreeyoucangetalmostanybodytodothat.But,ifonedoesn’tgothroughsomedevelopeddiscipline,onecan’tmasterlevelsofenergyandsuccesswithmentalandpsychicdiscipline.AndsothesediscoverieswereallhappeningtheninScientology.Itwasterriblyexciting.Thatwaswhatweworkedon,thesekindsofdiscoveries,atthattime.K:Okay.CanIjustinterject?Ratherthanaphilosophical

discussion,itwouldbebetterifthepointwasmade...D:It’snotphilosophical,becauseeveninsomeoftheCamelotinterviews...Whowastheonethatsaid:Thisisthegreatestsecretofall,isthepoweryouhaveandwhoyouareandwhatyouare.Thisisthegreatestsecret.K:Well,Camelotissayingthat.Wearesayingthat.D:Therewasawitnessalsowhospecificallysaidthattoyou.K:BobDeanwastalkingaboutthat.B:Ithinkwhatyou’rereferringtohereiswhatBillBirnesdescribedAdmiralGeorgeHooverassaying:Thegreatestsecret,actually,istheenormouspowerthatallhumanbeingshave.

D:Right.NowthetroublewithRonHubbardwashediscoveredthisgreatestsecretwithintherealmofhisstudiesandhediscoveredtechniquestodevelopenhancedabilitiessothathe,withhistechniques,wasproducingpeoplewhocouldgooutoftheirbody,goinanotherroom,lookatanythingtheywanted,andreportaccuratelywhatwasthere.Hewasproducingpeoplewhocouldtravelwherevertheywantedintheuniverseandreportbackonwhatthey’dseen,heatupanobject–liketheymadeIngodowhenhewentuptoStanford[laughs]–paranormalandpsychic...morethanpsychic...



godlikeabilitiestomanifest,appear,disappearandKNOWthings.Ingotellsthestoryofhowtheygavehimajobofgoingtothemoon.Hecalleditremoteviewing,butIassureyou,IngoWENTtothemoon!Andthat’showthegovernmentfoundoutthattherewereETsonthemoon.AndveryawareETs,becauseIngoquicklyfoundoutthattheETswhowereonthemoonwereabletosensethathewasthere,eventhoughhewentthereoutofbody.Theseabilitieswerewhythegovernmentswantedtohirehim,learnfromhim,anddevelopmeanstotrainotherstodothesame.SoHubbard’smethodscouldenhanceournativenaturalabilitiesandcouldbeusedforspyingoperationsandwar.ButasIsaid,thegovernmentsweredealingwithETsandtheydidn’ttellHubbardthat.TheScientologistswererecoveringmemoriesofourpast,loadedwithallkindsofspacescenes-Hubbardcalledit“spaceopera”.StarWarsandStarTrekwerereallypopularwithScientologistsasitwasveryrealtousasourownpast.Wedidn’tknowtherewascontactinourownpresent-day,however,andthatourgovernmentsweregoingnutstryingtofindawaytomakeourtechnologyANDourmentalabilitiescatchupwiththeETs.DevelopingtelepathywasanimportantpartofitallandHubbard’smaterialsofferedgreathopeforthedevelopmentofalltheseskills

andmore.Andthat’salsowhythegovernmentswantedhisresearch.So,enhancedpsychicabilitieswerebeingproducedinScientologyandHubbardwasbusydescribingthefactthatwehavesuchabilitiesinnately,andhavebeenmanipulatedoutofusingthembymindcontrol.Russiastolehisresearchandusedittostarttheirpsychicdevelopmentprogramsontheirchildren.Wedidthattoo,buttheywereaheadofus,becausetheRussianpsychicprogramstookHubbardmoreseriously.Hubbardcasuallymentionedthetheftofhisresearchmaterialsduringalectureonce.ButwhenHubbardrefusedtoplayalong,hebecameatargetTObefearedbythegovernment.Theydidn’tthepublictorecovertheseenhancedabilities,onlythosechildrentheputintotheprograms.

Inaddition,theybegantorecovertechnologyfromtheETsabouthowtocontrolthemindsandbodiesofmankind.Theirchoicesabouthowtoutilizeallthisnewknowledgewerepoorastheyweretoouninformedaboutourhistoryintheuniverse.That’swereHubbardcouldhavebeenoffarmoreusetothem.So,hebecameatargettobefeared.Thegovernmentsdidn’twantanarmyofScientologistscapableofknowingwhatwasgoingonforreal.So,HubbardwentontherunandendedupgettingafleetofshipsandescapinggovernmentswhichweretryingtostopHubbard.HethoughthewastargetedbecausehewasusinghisorganizationtospyontheIRSandthepsychiatristsandexposingtheircrimes.Hubbard

didn’tfullyknowthedepthofwhyhewassuchatarget.TheywantedtousehismaterialtodevelopabilitiesliketheETshad-butthegovernmentsdidnotwantthegeneralpublictogetthoseabilities!Andthemovementwasexplodinglikewildfirewithcentersspringingupworld-widetoteachwhatHubbardhadlearnedandusehistechniques.SoHubbardlivedontheoceanonaconstantescaperoute,tryingtogetaway,directingresearchprograms,developingthetechniques,andproducingpeoplewhorestoredtheinnateabilitiestheyhaveasinfinitespirits.Andhispurposewas...well,hesaidthatmankindwasgoingtobe



destroyedsooniftherewasn’tamassivechangeinhumanconsciousness,andhewastryingtoproducethatchangeusingthesetechniquesbeforeitwastoolate.Hisgoalwastowakeusupfromouramnesia.Now,theChurchofScientologywasdestroyedfromwithinbytheUSsecretgovernment.I’mcertainofthis.Anditwasdonebytheuseofchildren.Astimepassedthroughthe70s,thereweresomanythingsaboutHubbardthatindicatedthathewastamperedwiththatindicatethateitherhewasbeingclonedorhehadextraordinarybutdeterioratingabilities,oracombinationofboth.Forinstance,therearereportsofthedifferentkindsofbodiesthathehad,differentwardrobes,fullydifferentsizewardrobes.Andontheship,therewerereportsofsomebodybeingdownstairsbeingtaughtinaroombyhimandupstairs,he’salsoupstairsworking.Andthatsometimeshewasoneheightandsizeandthenextdayhewasadifferentsize.B:Ithink,ifIrememberright,itwasGeoffreyFilbertwhoreportedthat.Isn’tthatright?D:Yes,Ithinkso.Hewasoneoftheoneswhowroteabutthis.K:Okay,nowwhatIwouldliketoaskisthatyou’resayingthat“basedoninformationyouweretold.”Inotherwords,whydoyouknowwhatyouknow?Youmighttalkalittlebitaboutwhoyouwere

intheorganization.D’sfriend:Iwasinitfromthebeginning.Ron’scharacterstayedthesameformanyyears.Butinthelate70sitchangedandunderwentafullturnaround.Idon’tknowaboutcloning,butsomethinghappenedtochangehim,somethingheavy.Hehadaheartattackinthe70s,andtheyhadtogoashoreinSouthAmericatotakehimtoahospital.Itmadenosense,andwashiddenfromthepeopleintheChurch.Hispersonalityunderwentadrasticchange.Maybeaclonewassubstituted.Inthelastyears,hewasbarelyrunningtheChurchatallandbecameinterestedinmusic.Itwasasifheabandonedhisorganizationandtheurgencytosavetheplanet-buthewasstillalive.Heseemedtogofartherand

fartherawayfromevenhavinganinterestinhismission,whichhadbeenall-urgent,all-important,andaraceagainsttimetosavetheplanet.D:Well,okay.Ididn’tknowthatcloningexistedbackthen.UntilCamelot,Ihadnoideahowdevelopedhumancloningis.Butwhateverhappened,hechanged,andthatwasobvious.Therearealotofwaystoexertmindcontrol.Maybethatwasit.Butwhatweknowbeyondadoubtisthathewasatarget,andthathewasaffected,andthathewentfromfearlesstofearful;frombravetoparanoid.Gettingbacktothestory,Iknewlotsofpeoplethatwerehighupintheorganization,includingHubbard’sfamily.Iknewpeoplewhoworkeddirectlywithhimfromwayback.Inthelate70s,Hubbard’s

familywasseparatedfromhim,sotheycouldn’tseeORtalktohim.Hiswifewaslaterputinjail,hischildrencouldn’treachhim,andhewasisolatedinordertotakehimdown.ButIwasclosetohischildrenevenafterhiswife,MarySue,wasjailed.AndsoIwasabletoobservethecontrolandmanipulationonhisfamilyandheartheresultingupset,confusionandbetrayal,becausetheyandeveryoneelsewhowascutoffthoughtthatRonwaschoosingtoignorethemandtalkwiththemorseethem.Theycouldn’tconceivethattheirpowerfulfatherwasanunknowing



victimofblackops.Iknewaboutthebagsofmillionsofcashdollarsthatwerecourieredfromoneplacetoanother.Ittookalotofmoneytokeepfrombeingcapturedbythegovernment,alotofmoney,andhejustuseditascashtoescapeandtofundhisownreverse-spyoperationsbackonthegovernmentandtobuyexpensivepropertyoutright.Heputupagoodfight,buthedidn’tknowwhathewasupagainstandhowmanyresourceswouldbeusedtotakehimdown.TheymadeabigmistakenottellinghimabouttheETs.Wewouldn’thavesignedthetreatywiththewrongraceofETsiftheyhadutilizedhisknowledgeandhiredhimdirectly.Hestartedoutwithasterlingintentiontohelpmankind,butlittlebylittlehisorganizationwasinfiltrated,andmassivelyinfiltratedintheend,somuchsothatIdon’tevenknowifthepersonwhoeventuallydiedWASthebodyoftheoriginalRonHubbard.Idon’tactuallyknow.anddon’thaveawaytoknow.Butwedoknowpeoplethatwerenearhimveryclosetotheend,andhewasafarcryfromwhathewasinthebeginning.SincestudyingallthatIhavenow,includingCamelot,Iknowwehavehadfullcloningtechnologyofhumanssincethe60sfromaliens,andhowverymuchitisnowbeingemployedfor“problemleaders”.Theyjustgetanew

modelwhenevertheyareunhappywiththeoldone.K:Whatwasyourroleintheorganization?D:Well,IhadajobintheorganizationthatIdid.InmyjobIwassomeonewhoheardalotofthingsaboutstuffthatwasgoingonbecausepeoplewouldtellmethingsinconfidenceandbecauseofthatIlearnedaboutthingsthatweregoingon.K:You’renotansweringthequestionbecauseyoudon’twantpeopletoknowwhatyourspecificjobwas?It’sokayifyoudon’twanttothemtoknow.D:Oneofmyjobsintheorganizationwascalledauditor,whichmeantsomeonethatlistenedtosomeoneelsetalkingabouttheirconcernsandproblems.

B:It’sakindoftherapist.D:Andwhokeepsaconfidence.K:Butnotatraditionalkindofauditorthat...therearemillionsofauditors.Youwerejustoneofthem,orsomethingspecial?D:No,Hubbardcalleditthat.ItwasastrangenameasfarasI’mconcerned.Anauditorwassomeonethatusedhistechniquestoassistpeopletogettheirmemoryandabilitiesback,thekindofabilitiesyoureallyhaveasabeing–notonlyahumanbeing,butasaspiritualbeing.K:Okay,butthereweremanyofthose,right?Andyouwereoneofthem,right?

D:Iwasoneofthem.K:Howmanywerethereapproximately?Doyouknow?D:Idon’tknow.Thousands,beforetheexodus.Ireallydon’tknow.K:Okay.WhatI’mtryingtoestablishhereishowyousaidyouwere“uphigh”oryouhad“accesstouphigh”intheorganization.WhatI’mtryingtokindofgetatforthepeoplewhoaregoingtoreadthisis:Howhighwereyouintermsofyourjob?Andthenhowhigh–youkindofindicatedyourinformalaccesswastofamilymembers.Buthowhighwereyouintermsoftheformalstructure?Becauseyoublewthewhistleonanorganizationthatyouwereapart



of.Right?Youhadajobinthatorganizationonacertainlevel,soIwasjusttryingtofigureout...Likeifyouweregoingtopaintapictureforpeople...ifweweresayingsomethinglikethisonthegovernmentandtheyweretheSecretaryofStatethatwouldbeatitlewithinthatorganization.Theyhadatitle.Idon’tknowifyouhadaspecialtitlebesidesageneraltitlesuchasauditor.D:Itwasageneraltitle.Ihadacoupleofgeneraltitles.Iwasnearthecenterofpower,sotospeak.WhenIdiscoveredcorruption,myintentionwasnottoexposetheirinter-organizationalcrimeandblowawhistleinordertodestroyorhurtanything.Myintentionwastorepair.That’swhyIwrotetheletter-andifitcouldn’tberepaired,myintentionwastoatleastsetpeoplefreefromwasbecomingakindoftyranny.IwantedittoinspirethepowertofindwhowasbehinditallandcreatetheabilitytostandupagainstthestructurethatwasauthoritarianandtakingHubbardandhisorganizationdown.Ididn’tknowthenthatitwastheUSsecretgovernmentdestroyingScientologyfromwithin,andthat’swhyitwassoimpossibletofightit.We-Scientologistsworldwide-wereastronggroup,

unitedinaworldwidemissionthatweallbelievedin,butwedidn’thaveabloodycluewheretolookforthehiddenthirdfactor.Well,theUSblackopswerethehiddenthirdparty.AndindeedmanythingsthatHubbardpredictedIsawcometrue-whichwas,iftheorganizationofScientologybrokeupintosplintersanddidn’tstayaunitedgroupthatcouldmaintainthehighqualityandpurityofthedeliveryofthetechniques,thenScientologycouldn’tandwouldn’tmaintainitsabilitytoproduceaworldwideresult.Andindeeditdidnot.Nowthere’smany,theycallthemsplintergroups,manythatlostthecoreofthesubjectanditsbestfeatures.Buttheparentorganizationlosttheirvaluesfirst,pavingthewayforaschism.TheIRSandCIAandbeyondnowoverseetheChurchofScientology...

thetechniqueshavebeenwatereddownsothatyoudon’tfindmanymanypeopleachievingthekindsofresultsthatonceexisted.TheChurchisnolongerathreat,andHubbardisapubliclaughingstock,completelymadetolooklikeacriminalandcharlatan-usingtheveryScientologistswholovedhimtotakehimdown.They’retotallyunawarethattheywereallvictimsofamassivecampaigntotakedowntheChurchofScientology.Youdon’tfindasmanypeopleinScientologynowthatcangooutsideoftheirbodyandtravelatwillanymore-orwhoevenfocusonthatachievement.Youdon’tfindpeoplethatcanlevitateormovetheircarssidewaysonthefreewayinanemergency.Therewasamassive

publiccampaigntomakelessofsuchaccomplishmentsandturnthemintounimportant“tricks”,evenintheNewAgemovement.Butatonetimetherewererealphysical-universeresultsofaccomplishedenhancedabilitieslikethese.That’swhatthegovernmentdidn’twant:peoplewerefindingouttheydidnothavetobeslavesoftheirbodies.WhatittooktodestroyHubbardandScientologywasaconcentratedcalculatedoperationthatturnedmembersagainsttheFounderandagainsteachother.Itwastheolddivide-and-conquertechnique.The



peopleofthisplanethavenoideathedegreeofmanipulationweareunder.Ourmindsarestudiedlikeratsinamazeandwe’reallmanipulatedaccordingly.Oursupportofourleaders,orourprotestagainstourleaders,allfallsintolineaccordingtotheplansofthecontrollers.Thegeneralplanistobreakallsovereigntycompletelyandtoallowthecontinuationofanignorantslavepopulation.ThatignorancewasthreatenedbyScientologyandthebenevolentETswhocametowarnus.Onlywakingfromoursleepcansaveusnow.Hubbardsaidthisveryclearlyearlyon:Thisisaprisonplanet.We’rebeingimprisonedontheplanetandourignoranceisthemaintoolofourentrapment.Therewerenuclearwarsonearthalongtimeago.ScientificevidencecameoutthatnuclearglasswasbeingfoundeveryplaceontheEarthandtherehavebeenothermassiveexplosionsonEarthlongago.There’sevidencenowthattherewereothercivilizationshere.ManyofthecurrentgrouponEarthisimplantedandhypnotizedhereasprisoners.Thepeopleorthesouls,ortheactualspiritbeingswearethatareherearenotherebyaccident.Manycan’tgetofftheplanetbecausewe’reheldhereinanelectronicfieldofamnesia.

Wecan’twakeourselvesupenoughtogatherthesciencetodealwithperiodiccyclicEarthchangesbecausewe’resomind-controlledandsomanyofuslivelikeTrumandidintheTrumanShow.There’salotoftruthinthatmovie.AndIwouldsaythattheprincipalmindcontroltechniquesthatwereextractedfromHubbard,andnowusedonpeoplelikeDuncan[O’Finioan]andothersinthesuper-soldierprogramwereoriginallydevelopedusingthediscoveriesHubbardmadeabouthowthemindworks.Ibetwhereverheis,heisoneangryguynowtohavefoundoutwhathisdiscoverieshavebeenusedfor.Hubbardfoundsimilarthingsin

thememoriesofthousandsofpeople,astheystartedtoreallyrecalltheirpast:hediscoveredthatthewaythatthesepast-lifeandin-between-life“implants”aremosteffectiveistouseelectricity.That’swhenabeingisdeliveredagreatdealofelectronicvoltage,alongwithcommandstobehaveinacertainwayortolimitthemselvesorselectivelyenhancethemselvesincertainways.Peoplewererecallingindependentlythatelectricalandelectronictechniqueshavebeenusedtoimplantthefreesouloutofbodyforliterallymillionsofyears.Itmesseswiththeauricandmentalcircuits,youcouldsay.Electricityisconfusedbythebeingwithhisownsimilarlypowerful

energy.Theseimplantsconfuseanddestroymemoryandtheperson’sownpowerofenergyproductionisdestroyedorlimited.Behavioriscontrolled.It’sbeenhistoricallycontrolleddownthroughtime.Inthelastfewdecadesimplantsweredeveloped,onceagain,toafineartform.Nowourowngovernmentshaveitanduseittodeveloptheirpush-buttonassassinsandotherbehaviorsusingelectroshock,hypnosis,chemicalandothertraumaticphysicalmanipulation.SoonafterHubbard’sinformationcameoutaboutourancienthistory



andwhatreallyhappened,thegovernmentsstartedusingtheirSSpsychiatriststoexperimentwithelectricityandusereal-timementalandpsychicimplantstocontrolbehavior.Thousandsofchildren,thebestsubjectstheycouldfind,havebeenkidnappedintosuchprograms,becausethey’reprimesubjectswiththemostpotential.RonHubbardcalledit‘P-D-H-ing’someone.ThatmeansusingPain,DrugsandHypnosistocontrolbehaviorandtomindcontrolthem.SoI’mconvincedthatinRussiaandintheUSinmoderntimesthetechniquesthatnowcreatesuper-soldiers,thatcreatedtheentiremindcontrolprogram,startedinthis1950sera-partlybystudyingHubbardandrecreatingwhathediscoveredhadbeendonetousthatwehadintherecordsofpeoplewhorecalledmillionsofyearsbackintimeandsawthatinthepresent,we’reabouttorepeatthepastagain.Andpartlybyreverse-engineeringcrasheddisktechnologyandpartiallybytradingwithETsfortechnology.Hubbardputouttheknowledgethatsuchtechniqueshaveworkedthroughoutourhistory,datingbackmillionsofyears.Wejustrecreatedit.Psychiatricelectricshockimplantsbecamepopularbythe60sasroutinepsychiatrictools.SeeingaswehadSSpsychiatristsdirectlyimportedin[Project]Papercliptherewereplentyof

willingpsychestodothedirtyworkinmindcontrol,sexslaves,messengerswhorelaypoliticaldataandforgetitlikearobot,andsuper-soldierprototypes.Forbehaviormodification,themakingofassassinsandsex-slavesandspies.Wedevelopedtheknow-howtosegmentthepersonintodifferentpersonalities:thatwasdevelopedtoafineartform.Becausewhenyoustudywhat’shappenedtothesesuper-soldiers,whatthepsychiatristswerebeinghiredfor,tocausepeopletobehaveinacertainway,usingelectronics–andsimultaneoushypnoticcontrolorcommandsthataredeliveredatthetimethatoneisinthestateofelectricshock,thenthat’seffectiveonalong-termbasis,andthatisthewaythesesuper-soldiersarecreated.

Painpluschemicalbrainalterationplusdeepcommandsarehowthebehaviorismodified.Mindcontrolcanbedonethroughpainwithoutelectricitytoo.Thewaythemindworkswhencommandsaregivenduringpainwasdiscoveredandwrittenupin1950byHubbardinhisfirstbook.Withinafewyears,thetechniqueswerebeingcreativelyutilizedfortheDarkSide.NaziProjectPaperclipdoctorsweregiventheinformationtoenhancetheirnewemploymentintheUSA.Historyhasrepeateditself.Atthesametime,therewasaexplodingpopulistmovementtousethesetechniquesonourselves,bypartneringwithanotherandusingtheknowledgeinthebook.NowHubbardshowedushowtoreversethesetechniquesthataresometimesdonetousinbetweenlifetimesforthepurposeofkeeping

ourmemoriesdestroyed-tokeepusinEarthprison.Heshowedushowtorecoverknowledgeofwhoweareandwhatourpersonalhistoriesare.Myfriendherehasworkedonundoingelectricshock.Ididitwithonepersontoo...andwhatanundertakingwhenithappensonone’scurrentbody.Ittakesskill,buttherearemethodstoundoelectricshock:wheretheeffectcanbereversed,andmemoryandbodyhealthcanberestored.



Butitdoesrequirethatyoutakeittothepointofbeingabletoremovethespiritfullyoutoftheirbody–becausethebraincircuitsarepartlydestroyedbythatkindofelectronicapplication–sotheperson’sgottohavemorethanjustabodyhealing.Butifyoucanremoveabeingfromhisbody,theyhavethepowertohealtheirownbodyandhealwhat’shappenedtotheirsynapses,and,mostofall,corespiritenergy,fromthosekindsofexperiences.SoIbelievethatit’snotwhatIdidpersonallythathastodowiththewhistleblowerthing.It’sthesignificanceofwhoL.RonHubbardwasandwhathetriedtodoabouttheworldsituation.Hebitoffmorethanhecouldchew.IbelievethattheUSgovernmentisnowunderpartialcontrolofaraceofdarkETs-becausethegovernmentdidnotknowhowtoevaluatewhichraceofthemtotrust.TheUSgovernmentandothergovernmentstooktheinformationfromHubbard’sworkandtheyareusingitsdark-sided,morphedmodernversionstokeepcivilizationfromknowingtheverysecrethediscoveredaboutOURpower.Thenewtechniquesallowyoutodestroymemory,notrecoverit.Theyallowyoutodumbdownapopulation,notwakethemup.WeALLhavethesekindsofmemories.We’veALLbeenmessedwith.Whenmemoryisrestored,wefindthatweALLenduprememberinghowwegothereorweresentherethroughthesenefariousmethodswherewewereimplanted–implantedmeaning...whileusingelectronics,we

weregivenbehaviormodificationhypnoticcontrolcommandstokeepournatural,real,trueabilitieslimitedandtonotreallyknowwhoweare,wherewecamefrom:tonothaveamemorythatgoesbackmillionsofyears,likesomeoftheseETshave.Right?AndnowsomewhistleblowersandsomeETcontactsareacknowledgingthatindeedthisisaprisonplanet.Soyoucanlistentorecordingsinthe’50sand’60swhereHubbard’stalkingaboutallofthis.ManypeopleinScientologyrecoveredsimilarindependentlyderivedmemories...weallhaveknowledgeandmemory:wecanrecallthegalaxyteamingwithintelligentlifeandahugevarietyoflifeforms,andallthethingsthatarenowcoming

outinCamelot.RonHubbardwouldhaveLOVEDCamelot!Hewouldhaveofferedtodemonstratehistechniquesinpublicsopeoplecouldobservehowmemoryisrecovered.Infact,hedidthatforthepublicinmanydemonstrationsandlecturesinthe50s.Inthe’50sand’60sweintheChurchofScientologyweretalkingaboutallthisbecausewesataroundrememberingourhistory.WelovedStarTrekbecauseweREMEMBEREDitsrealityaslifeinthisuniverse!Werememberedbeingindifferentbodies,differentraces,beingdifferentkindsofETs,beingrobotbodies–youasaspiritoccupyingarobotbodyorbodiesthatlookedlikedolls,orbeingatwhatisahigherdimension,whichisjustspiritually,really

functioningatahigherlevel,andwehavebeenthefourthdimensionalandfifthdimensionalandsoon.Imean,allofthatisamatterofrestoringourmemoryrecords.B:Andforexample,justtosupportwhatyou’resaying,in2006BillDeagleinhisGranadaForumlecturewastalkingabouttheIlluminatibeingcontrolledbyhigherdimensionaldemonicentities.D:Right.And,youknow,theseentitiesarelookedatasprettyfrighteningbynormalhumans,butit’sbecausehumansdon’thavewaystobecomecomparabletothoseentitiesinpowerorin



understanding:tohavecomparableabilitiestoentitiesthatarestuckinarepetitionof(quote)“evilness”or“actsofcontrol,dominationandpower,”ratherthanhavingtheirownfreedom.K:Okay,sothat’sbeenestablished,andIunderstandwhatyou’resaying.Certainlyhehadthosetechniquesandhewasawareofallofthat.ButIactuallythinkthattheoccultgoesbackalotfurtherthanHubbard.Hubbardwasbornrelativelyrecently,sothosetechniquesdidexistintheoccultinvariousdisciplines.Dotheilluminaticomefromthosedisciplines?D:Asamatteroffact,HubbardstudiedwithCrowley.HestudiedwithCrowley,sothetechniquestoenterthedarksidedidexistandhestudiedtheirapplicationandwhattheywere,butthetechniquestoUNDO“theDarkSide”didnotmuchexist,andthatiswhatHubbarddiscovered.Andthatwasuniquelydifferent.Afterheprovedthatmemorycouldberecoveredfromthewombandbirth,manymethodswerederivedtofindthesememories.Oneofthoseisnowwell-knownasRebirthing.Hubbardwastheinspirationformanysuchthings.Eventhebrainwasinvestigatedafterhisbookcameout.Surgeonstouchedpartsoftheopenbraintoseeifcertainmemoriesresidedincertainpartsofthebrain.AfterHubbard’sbookprovedthatthememoriesexist,therewasanexplosionofstudiesandtherapiesand

research,noneofitnowattributedtohisdiscoveries.K:Iunderstand.Okay,sogiventhat,nowlet’sfast-forwardtoyouareapersonwithinthisorganization,thesethingsarehappening,thesepeoplearebeingtrainedtoget,youknow,tobasicallyfreethemselvesusingthesetechniques.Russia’sinterestedinHubbard.Solet’snowexplainsortofwhatpropelledyoutodowhatyouweredoing.Inotherwords,canyoumaybechroniclejustinasuperficialwaytosomedegreeorinasmuchdepthasyouwant,whatwascorrodingtheorganizationandhowitcamealongandthenwhy...likesomethingofthedramathatbroughtyoutotheplacewhereyouwrotethisletterandthenwhattheletterdid.D:Well,forastartIbelievethatIhavehadextraterrestrial

contact.K:Okay.D:AndthereasonIsaythat–andI’veonlyrecentlycometotherealizationthatit’sprobablywhathappened–isbecausethewaythatIaccessedcertainunderstandingsoftheuniversewasthatIhadagreatdealofrevelationaboutwhathappenedtomankindatourinception,orattheinceptionofthehumanrace,andIwentintovariousstatesinwhichIcouldtime-travelandbefullyoutofmybodyandgowhereIwanted.ButthereasonIthinktherewasETinterventiononmeisthatIdidn’teatanyfoodordrinkanywaterforthreemonths,andIdidn’tsleepforthreemonths.Duringthatentiretime,Iwas

manifestinganextensionofHubbard’stechniquesthatwentbeyond...thatwereacontinuationbeyondwhatHubbarddid.AndIrealizedsomethingsthatwerestuckthatwouldn’tallowScientologiststoprogress.IfeltHubbardcouldprogressandgetoutofwhateverailedhim,hehadsomeproblemanditwasbecomingundeniablethatsomethingwasdeeplywrongwithhim.Hehadbecomeparanoid.NowIknowwhy.Itwaswell-founded.Hehadnoideaofthekindoftechnologyusedagainsthim.The“hidden”factoriswhatmakesitsodangerous.



Iwasverydeterminedatthattime,withasmallgroupofpeopleIwasworkingwith,togettohim.ButhewasbasicallyheldaparanoidprisonerinthedesertinCalifornia[Ed.Note:GilmanHotSprings]andwecouldn’tgettohim,Hediedshortlyafterinaprettynefarious,intentionallyneglectedanddespicableway.ButthatlevelofabilityIhadforthreemonths:noteating,sleepingordrinkingwater...theabilitiesonlystoppedshortinthatIcouldnotstopbreathing.Istillhadtobreathe,butallotherbodyfunctionsIdidn’tneedanymore.Ineverslept,andIwasmorewideawakethanI’deverbeenwideawake.DuringthatwholethreemonthsIexperiencedacontinualamassingofknowledge.Iexperiencedbeingmanyplacesinmanydimensions.Ilearnedmuchaboutourpast,andtherewasafulltranscendenceoftime.Iwasinsimultaneitywithoutbreakforthreemonths.K:Soyouwereworkingwithasmallgroupofpeople.D:ActuallyIwasalonewhenallthishappened-notwiththeothersdirectly.Ijustdidn’tseethemandwasnotinastatetobeabletoexplainittothem.Youknow,we’rehearingaboutinCamelothowwearehybridsandhowweweregeneticallyengineered.Butit’smorethangeneticengineering,itsalsospiritualengineering,andverypreciseentity

engineering.Andso,inthatthreemonthsIwasshown,andIneverknewquitehowitwasIwasshown,butIthoughtrecentlyitmusthavebeenthatIwascontacted,becausewhenIstartedtogetthisinformationthereweremany,many,manybeingstalkingtomethatcametomeintheroomandIthought:Whyme?BecauseIdidn’tseethatIhaddoneverymuchtodeserveallthatunderstandingandknowledge.Butforwhateverreason,IdownloadedthisextraordinaryinformationandthenIjustunderstoodaconceptofsteppingstonesthatwereanextensionofwhatHubbarddid.Anotherpersoninthelittlegroupbrokeitdownandmadefurtherdiscoveries.Hewroteitupandtaughtothershowtodelivernewtechniquesderivedfromthesediscoveries.ButallofwhatIreceivedisnotintacttodayinadeliveryform.MuchofwhatI

utilizedandwhatIdownloadedisstillwithme.I’dliketoseetheworkcompleted.Camelothasbeenarevelation,asmuchofwhatIlearnedinthedownloadisbeingrevealedbyETs.K:Yougotinformation.Whatinformation?D:Informationabouthowthehumanracewasconstructed.InformationaboutmissedstepsinScientology.OthershavediscoveredtechniquestoenhanceScientology,butalltoooftentheyleavebehindpartsofitthatshouldstillbeused.IdiscoveredacrucialunderstandingthatHubbardhadmissed.Mosteveryoneinthesubjectbackthenhadreceivednewabilities,but

somewentoutofbodyandcouldn’tmaintaintheability.NowIknowwhattodosothatabilitiescanbeamagnifiedandmaintained.Idon’thaveanorganizationtodeliverit,though,andmysmallgroupnevertookitalltheway.K:Andareyouabletoputthatinwords?D:Inwords?Whatthattechniqueis?Letmesee...Weareeachofusinfiniteinourabilitiestocreateenergy,andwenaturallyhaveinfiniteenergy,BUTwhenwedonotmanifestitinawaythatisfree,itboomerangsonusandourownenergyfieldsareconfusedso



thatwecan’tactuallyusethem.Andwhenwecan’tusethem,wecan’tmanifestasweareandsoweloseabilities.Ourinfiniteenergyisinfinite.Wemustlearntodirectandmanageitoritturnsinwardonus.OnemustlearntoUSEit,orthemisdirectedenergywillabuseoneselfandothers.We’restructuredtoflowenergyandmanifest.Wecan’tNOTdothatwithoutremovingourselvesfromlife.Easternreligionsarebasedondealingwithourenergiesbyremovingourselves.Buddhadid,andthatisyourlifeworkthen.Nottoliveandmanifest,buttoremoveanddisengagetoendallsuffering.Sufferingisnotfromliving,butfromnotunderstandingthatdesireandlifeandenergymustbemanifestedasonereallyISinorderNOTtobecomedestructive.Ifyoudon’tknowwhatyouare,youcan’tunderstandyourabilitiesandeducateyourselfintheirhappyutilizationandenjoyyourgiftsforpleasure,ratherthanpain.You’vegottobecomeeducatedastheinfinitesoulyouare.So,fromwhereweare,weneedtosuccessivelydealwithalargerandvariedenergyfieldsothatwecanmanifestenergythat’smoreandmoredeveloped.Definingthisasthemodelofexpansionwasactually

discoveredbyoneofusinthesmallgroupandwrittenupinextensivefilesalongwithtrainingcoursesandtechniquestobegintodelivertheseabilities.Sobyincreasingourownabilitywecandealwiththeseentitieswehearaboutthatarethesehyper-dimensionalevilentitiesandsoon,wecanconnecttothem.Wehavetheabilitytogobeyond,standground,andtotalktothem,andtocommunicatewiththem,andtoassistthemtogetoutoftheirownrepeatingdarkdestructivepatterns.Butwecan’tdothatunlesswegothroughcertainprocessesourselvestoreachthesedifferentlevels–andtoundowhat’sbeendonetousorwhatwe’vedoneinourownpast,whichiskeepingour

energyboomerangedagainstourselves.Thenwecanagainputourenergyoutward.Idon’tknowifthatwasclear!K:Okay.Thatwasthebeginning.That’sinteresting.Sofromthereyouwereworkingwithasmall...initiallyyousaidyouwerealoneandyoukindofdevelopedthistechniqueinwhichyoucouldbasicallybecomeaBreatharian,inessencetoliveonair.Anddidyouusesunlightatalltoenergizeyourself?D:Yes.Youcouldgetnutritionfromsunandair,andInevergotpastthatpointofnoteating,sleepingordrinkingwater.Mybodygotlighter,butIwasn’tlevitatingexceptononeoccasion.K:Okay.Soyou’reusingthis,you’redoingthisonyourownbutatthesametimeyou’repartoftheorganization,I’massuming.

D:Well,officiallyIwas.K:Andthenyouwereworkingwithasmallgroup.D:AndIwasalsoworkingwithasmallgroup.Yes.K:Doyouwanttosayhowsmall?D:Threepeople.K:So,twootherpeople.D:Twootherpeople.Ittakesbasicallyatriangularenergytogeneratepower.Twoterminals,PositiveandNegative,andaGround.It’sgoodtoworkwiththreepeopleuntilyoucandoityourself.B:Doyoustillhavethosetechniques?Couldyougetbackintouch



withthem,orhaveyousomehowdisconnectedfromthem?D:Iintentionallyrecreatedthenecessitytosleepagain.I’vealwaysregrettedit.Idon’tsleepalotofthetime.Isleepaboutthreenightsaweek,maybe25hoursaweek.Butthat’smorethanIwouldlike.B:Veryinteresting.D:It’sanentirestructurethatmakesyousleep,andit’sveryexact.Youhavetoknowit,andyouhavetoknowhowtoundoit,becauseit’sintentionalthatwesleep,andit’showwedealwithallournotfullyconsciousenergy.WithoutREM[RapidEyeMovement]sleep.wegoinsane.Butonceyou’vedealtwiththeseenergiesandcontactedandeliminatedtheautomaticinstalledsleepprograms,youdon’tneedtosleep.Sleepisawaytohandlethefactthatwe’reignorantasaspiritualandphysicalbeing.Butwhenyou’renot,youdon’tneedtosleep.Weneedsleeptorepairhealtheverynightasitis,becausewe’reignorantofhealth.Youdon’tneedtosleep,ultimately.Butyouhavetoknowhowtogettotheothersideofsleep.Wearealldrug-dependent,soptospeak,andwedon’tevenknowwhatthatmeanswhenIsayit.B:Veryinteresting.D:Notsleepingisnotjustanabilitytoacquirebylearningit.

Youhavetobeabletogothroughtheenergyfieldsthatareboomerangedonyou.Partofitisdietary,too.Youhavetocleanupallthetoxinsbeforeyoucanworkonthedeeperinstalledspiritualmechanismofsleep.B:There’sabunchofquestionsthere!Butlet’sstayonthetopic.D:Sure.K:Soit’salittlebitlikefollowingaplot.Sohereyouare,you’redoingthistechniqueandyou’rebreakingthroughcertainlevelsthatyouthinkareholdingbackatleastRonHubbardandhisorganizationonsomelevel.D:Well,holdingbackallofmankind.WhatRonHubbarddiscovered

waswhymankindistrappedandwhymankindintheconditionitis.Hewantedtofreeus.Heputtheorganizationtherebecausehewantedittofreeeveryoneontheplanet.But,instead,itwasheavilyattackedandhewasattacked,anditwasfinallytakendownthroughchildren.AndIbelievethosechildrenthemselveswerepartofapsychicprogram,becausethosechildrenweregivenjobsintheorganizationtoruntheadults.Theywerecalled“TheMessengerOrg”.Theyneverwenttorealschool.Theywerelikefive,six,sevenyearsold.Theywerehisservantsandtheonlypeoplewhocouldgetclosetohim.B:Weretheythatyoung?D:Yeah!B:Ididn’tknowthat.

D:Ohyeah,youbettheywere,it’salltheyknew.K:Didtheygoontheboat?Howmanychildren,anddidtheygoontheboatwithhim?D:Yeah,theyweretheonlyoneswhohadaccesstoRon.Theadultscouldn’tevengettohim,onlythechildrencould.Andit’sthechildrenwhotookovertheorganization.Thepersonthatrunsthatorganizationtodaywasoneofthosechildrenthatstartedoutveryyoung.K:Okay.Andhowmanychildren?Doyouknow?D:Idon’tknowhowmanytherewere.Hundreds.Intheendthey



foughtitout.ImeanattheendtherewerethreeorfourofthemthatwerefightingitoutforcontroloftheChurchandtheywerelike12yearsold,ornotmucholder.Oneofthemwon,andhegotcontrolofthatChurch.B:Letmeclarifythisjustalittlebitbybouncingthisoffyou-becauseitkindofsoundsabitweird.Whatyou’resayingisthatthesechildrenservedasmessengers.D:Theycalledthemthat.B:Right,butletmetellyouwhatIunderstand,becauseIwasneverintheChurch,andIwasneverapartofthatenvironmentatall,soI’vegotnopersonalexperience.WhatI’dunderstoodwasthattheyservedasmessengers,bothverbalmessagesandwrittenmessages,butthereasonwhytheyhadpowerwasbecausetheyhadthepowertochangethemessage,ornotdeliverthemessage,ortofalsifymessages.D:That’sright.Andtheremusthavebeeninstructiontothemthatprogrammedthemtoknowhowtodoalterdirectionsuntiltheythemselvesbecameinstilledwiththepersonaldriveforpoweranddominance.Theywereintentionallyprogrammedtohaveenormousegos.B:Andthereforethatputtheminentirecontrolofthe

communications,likeaspyprograminacomputer.D:Theywere.Exactly.B:Andtheycoulddoabsolutelyanythingtheywantedto.D:That’sright,andtheydid.Theytotallydid.Theytotallydid.ManycommunicationsnevergottoRon.Manywerealtered.Heendedupafraidorwithdrawn,aHowardHughes-typefigure.Nooneelsetalkedtohimbutthechildren.K:Sowhorecruitedthechildreninitially?D:Well,IbelievethatthegovernmentinfiltratedsleeperandconsciousadultagentsintotheChurchwhotrainedthechildren;thatthereprogramswithsecretintentionsthatwentonwiththe

children,butthatitwasn’tknowntotheparents,andwashiddeninplainsight.K:Agentswhoweremembersoftheorganization,you’resaying.D:Exactly.Exactly.Butthechildrenwereprogrammedtobecomeinhumanandnotlikechildren;theybecameanentityuntothemselves.K:Theyweretrained,broughtupintheorganization,sotospeak,andtrainedinthesemethods.D:Well,nottrainedverywellinactualScientology,nottherealtechniques,butthepowerfulmilitarysideofthings.EntiresectionsbecameliketheGestapo.K:Okay.D:NoteducatedinrealScientologyverywellatall.Theywere

takingdowntherealScientology.K:Theywereinfiltratedinasensethatsomehow,butdidyoufeelthat...?Likelet’ssaywehaveakid,wouldyoufeelthechildandtheparentwouldbeinfiltratedbytheCIA?D:Theywereseparatedfromtheirparents.K:Theywereseparated?D:Yeah.K:How?D:Becausetherewas,itwascalledTheMessengerOrganization.ItwaswithintheChurch.andtheparentswouldbeworkinginsome



sectionoftheorganizationandthechildrenwouldbegoingthroughtheirowntraining,whichwassupposedtobelikeregularschool-butwasn’tsomuchlikeregularschool.Itwashighlydisciplinarian.ThepersonwhotookovertheChurchwhenHubbarddiedwasn’tevenahighschoolgraduate.HedidNOThaveagoodeducation.Buthewastrainedinforceandhewastrainedtodominate.Hewastrainedincontrol.Hewastrainedinusingpower,andherunsthatorganizationthatway.B:Whatyou’resayingisthattheconditioning,sotospeak,camemuchmorefromtheorganizationthanfromtheparents,andit’salmostlike...D:Ithinktherewasanorganizationwithintheorganization,becausetheIRSendeduprunning...Imean,theplacewasloadedwithIRSagentsandlawyersthatranit,whichtookovertheChurch.B:Yes.K:Andwhatyearwasthiswhenthathappened?D:Ithappenedfullyinthe’80s.Thefinalcoup.B:Irememberthatanotherwhistleblower,BillRobertson,whowemayormaynotenduptalkingabout,namedAlanHibbertasalsooneoftheinfiltrators-andalso,Ibelieve,theBroekers.Allofthisisinthepublicrecordandit’sextensivelydebatedontheinternet.

Butthepointisthattherewasgoodreasontobelievethattherewereagentsinplace....D:Oh,therehastohavebeen.B:...inthispyramidalstructurethatwascomplicitinthistakeoverandmanyofthemweresleepers,sotospeak,thathadbeenthereforaverylongtime.Andallthiswasgoingonalongsideyoubecauseyouwerealsofairlysenior.IthinkthiswasthequestionKerrywasasking.Youwerefairlyseniorinthispyramidalstructure.Isthataccurate?D:No,Iwasclosetopeoplethatwereseniorinthestructure.B:Okay.Allright.D:See,it’smybeliefthattheFBI,theCIAandtheIRS,theAMAandtheAmericanPsychiatricAssociation,alltogetherjoinedin

takingdownScientologybecauseitwasexposingeachoneofthembecauseHubbardwasspyingonthemandreleasingtheirownincriminatingdocuments-andopenlycuringdiseaseinthe50s.Hepublishedaperiodicaloflistedcrimeswiththetime,locationandevents,withnames.Hemadeenemies,alright.ButthebiggestthreatwasthatHubbardwasathreattotheIlluminati,totheAnunnaki,becausehehadmuchtruthaboutourpast,aboutwhoweactuallyare.TheAnunnakidon’twantustokeeprememberingourhistory!Andheresearchedandpublishedsuccessfultechniquestofreeusofouramnesia.Hejustdidn’tknowtheControllersareSTILLhere,andneverleft!K:Howdidthesepeoplebeginthetake-down?Inotherwords,howdid

itmanifest?D:Itmanifestedthroughchildren.ThosechildreninTheMessengerOrgwerenotthesameasthepeopleintheregularorganization.Theywerenotthesame.Theywereseparate.K:ButI’msayingyou’vegotauditors,you’vegottheScientologyorganizationoperating,sohowdid,literally,thetakedownoccur?Doyouevenknow?Imean,I’mjustasking.Likeinotherwords,wasthere...let’ssay...I’mjustgoingtoguess:wastheresomehumanbeingbesidesachildwhowentintoapositionofpower,whobecamesortofaninsidiousleader?



D:Ithastohavehappenedonaninvisibleadultlevelfirst.Butthechildrenmanifestedthetakeover.Therewascorruptionthathappenedwherepeoplewerecompromised,aswasRon.Rondidn’tknowtherealenemy.Andtruetotheageoldtechnique,hisownjusticesystemendedupturnedinonthemembersthemselves.L.RonHubbardwascompromised,andIdon’tknowwhichL.RonHubbard,butL.RonHubbardwascompromisedandmadetobeparanoidanditbecameanorganizationofdominatingenforcement.Hiscarefullythoughtoutjusticesystem,whichhesimplycalledEthics,becameaseriesofkangaroocourts.PeoplelosttherealevolutionofaworkablehumanjusticeorethicssystemandblamedthenowtravestyontheoriginalforthecrimesnowcommittedusingTHATasthemeans.Hisrealethicssystemwasaworkofgenius,butwassubvertedandusedtocommithorriblecrimesagainstmembers.Weblamedthesystem,anddidn’tknowithadbeenintentionallycorruptedandturnedsuppressivetothemembersthemselvesinordertotakethemalldown.Hubbardbecameblindedwithparanoiaanditstartedbitbybit,wayback.Fromfearlesstofrightened.Ifheonlyknewtherewasgoodreasontobefrightened,but,ashesaid,ifyouknowthereal

reasonforsomethingyoucanDOsomethingaboutit.Youcandealwithit.Thetruthsetsusfree.K:Heendeduptakingmoney?Ortheystartedchangingthetechniques?D:Moneywastakenoffthefrontlines,butHubbardallowedorparticipatedearlyoninusingforcefulnesstocontrolpeopleandtotrytodisciplinethem.Desperate.Majormindcontroltechnique.Enticeapurebeingtocommitoneactofcompromise,andheissobasicallygoodthatthatactbecomesanAchillesHeeluntilhecanseeWHOmanipulatedhimandwhyandwhathisownpartinitwas.B:Letmemakeasuggestionhere,whichisalsointheformofa

question.Because,asIwassaying,Iwasn’taroundatthistime.WhatIunderstandisthat,forexample,amessagewouldcomethroughapparentlyfromHubbardwithapparentlyhissignatureonitsaying:Don’tdoitthatway,doitTHISwayfromnowon.Thisisanorder.AndnobodyeverreallyknewwhetherthiscamefromHubbard.Itcouldhavebeenfalsifiedbecausethemessengerswerefullyincontrolofthecommunication.AndeventothisdaytherearedebatesaboutwhetherHubbard’ssignaturehasbeenfalsifiedoncertain–they’recalledTechnicalBulletins–becauseeverythingthathasgottodowithdefiningtheexactdetailsofhowabeneficialprocessshouldbeappliedwas

definedbyHubbard,andashisresearchwasrefinedovertheyearshewouldperiodicallymakealterationsandamendmentsandupgrades,likeI’vediscoveredabetterwaytodothis;doitthisway.Orthere’sabetterwaytodothis,doitthatway.Andallyou’vegottodoistohavesomebodyfakingthatandthensay:I’vegotabetterwaytodoit;doitthisway,andactuallywasitiswassabotagingtheprocessandproducingacompletelydifferentresult.There’sbeenextensiveresearchdone–actuallyit’ssortoflikehistoricalresearch–doneinthecontextoftheChurchof



Scientologynow,justlookingupandbackinguphoweverything’sbeenchangedandchangedandchanged.D:That’sentirelycorrect.Thesubjectisnowashadowofwhatitoncewas.Periodically,Iwalkinoneoftheirorganizations.I’mnotinbadstandingasmyactualself.Icanwalkinandoutandsayhellotopeoplewhoknowmeand,youknow,nobodyknowsanything.ImaintaingoodstandingandIgoinandlookatwhatthey’redoing,andit’sabsolutelyadifferentsubject,almostnotrecognizable,andthethingsthathadthemostpoweraresowatereddownthatthey’reineffective.Ronismadeintoaculticon.It’snowacultmythology.Theytellthepeoplehediedbecausehe“wanted”togoontodohisnextlevelandhisbodywasholdinghimback.Whatacrock!TheymakemoviesthesedaysthatmakehimlooklikeanascendedGod.Hewouldhavebeendisgusted.B:Yes.Okay.D’sfriend:...Destructionofitfromplacesvery,verypowerfulandveryhighuponthelevels.Seniortechnicalpersonschangingtheworkableprocedures.AndthatwentonbecauseTheMessengerOrghadatremendouscontrolandusedit,andthechildrenwentcrazy.K:Theywentcrazy?D’sfriend:TheywentcrazywithpowerbecauseRonwouldsaygooutandtellsomebodytodosomethingandthechildrenwouldgooutand

say:HereIam,L.RonHubbard.Thechildbasicallywouldsaythatandthepeoplewouldsay:Okay,fine,I’lldowhateveryousay.Justimagineanine-year-oldoraseven-year-oldwiththatkindofpower.Prettyawesome.K:Sotheybelievedthem.D’sfriend:Absolutely.Well,thatwasthepolicy.TheywereRon’sMessengerswhoweresupposedtogivehisexactcommunicationsashegaveittothem.B:It’sveryhardtoimagine.Ithinkit’sveryhardforthenewgenerationofScientologiststoreallyunderstandthat.Thisisoneofthereasonswhywhatwe’rerecordinghereisasusefulasahistoricaldocument.

D:Myfriendherewasinitfrom1950whenthebookfirstcameout.He’soneoftheso-calledold-timers.Theycallthemthat.Mostofthemaredead.D’sfriend:Veryfewofusleft.D:Veryfewareleft.Veryfewhavewhatittakesphysicallytoliveoldlikeyouhave.B:Weweretalkingabouthowthingswerealtered,andhowtheygotsandintheworks,andthingsweregraduallychanged.Andthepowerwasmoreandmoreinthehandsofthechildrenandlessandlessinthehandsofthepeoplewhoreallywerecompetent.Andthere’sanexample–IguessyoucaptureditabouthowBillRobertson...isitworthwhileexplainingwhoBillRobertsonwas?

D’sfriend:TherewasthisguynamedBillRobertson,andhehadgoneupinthehierarchyandhewasacaptainintheSeaOrganizationontheships,andhehadvariousstories.OneofthestorieswasthatoneoftheshipswasinFranceandhe’dtellusthattheshipshouldn’tgobacktoEnglandbecauseiftheydidthegovernmentwouldconfiscateit.Sothekidsthatwererunningthecenterofcommunicationatthatpointsaid:Forgetit.Wearen’tpayinganyattentiontothat.Sotheshipcamebackandthegovernmentactuallyconfiscatedit.Thatkindofthing.



AndonetimewhenRobertsonwasinEngland,andRonandhewereaboutthreebuildingsapart–Ronwasinabuilding,Robertsonwasstayinginanotherapartmentaboutthreeapartmentsaway–andRonsentsomecommunicationtoRobertson,thechildrenpickeditupandthekidsbrutallysaidtoRobertsonthatRondoesn’tlikewhatyou’redoingandyou’reinalowercondition.B:Whatdoyoumeanalowercondition?D’sfriend:You’reindisfavor,sothereforeyou’regoingtohavetomakesomeamendstomakeupforwhatyou’vedone-whateveritwasatthatparticulartime.Andthereportwasaninventionofthekids,aten-year-oldoreight-year-old,whateverhewas.AndsoRobertsonfelloutoffavor,didn’tknowthatRondidn’tsaythathimself,andtherewasalotoffalloutfromthatepisode.ThosekindsofthingsbecauseoftheMessengerOrgwentonmoreandmoreastheMessengerOrgchildrengotmoreandmorepower.D:BillRobertsonwasn’ttheonlyoneithappenedto.Many,manypowerfulpeoplethatwerehighupthathadtremendousabilitytotechnicallycreateandassistotherstobecomeawareoftheirownpsychicabilitiesand...TheChurchofScientologywasfightingtheIRS,theywerefightingpsychiatry,theywerecertainlyfightingelectricshocktechniquesofanysort,andtheywerefightingdrugs,medicaldrugs,andall

druguse.Theyputoutamagazinedetailingthecrimesoftheseagenciesandorganizations.Thatreallymadeenemies.Hehadnofearintellingthetruthandexposingthisstuff.Histechniquesdidn’tutilizeanyhypnosisordrugsinordertoassistsomebodytohaveanextensiverecallofmillionsofyearsoftheirownhistoryandtorealizethatthisisreallythenatureofexistence,thatwe’realleternalspirits.ThatknowledgewascommonforusinthosedaysanditwasNOTdonethroughthesetechniquesthathavesincebecomepopular:gettingregressedandsomebodyelsetellsyouwhatyourhistorywas,andhavingdrugssoyoucanfindout,havinghypnosissoyoucanfindout.

Thetechniquesthathecameupwithwereprettystraightforward.Youactuallycouldremember,yourself,nodifferentthanyouknowwhatyouateforbreakfast.Youcouldrememberwhatyouweredoingathousandyearsagoanditreallydidn’tfeelthatdifferentonceyouweredevelopedtoacertainpoint.Therewasnobodyelsewhoevertoldyouanythingaboutyourselfwiththesetechniques;itwaspurelyyourownmemory.Thetechniqueswerenotmindcontrol.Theyreversedmindcontrol.K:Sotogettothisplacewherewehavetheorganizationbeinginfiltratedinvariouswaysandthechildrenofmembersbeingtargeted,youknow,andbeingmessedwithintheprocess.Right?D:Right.

K:Sotheyinterferedwiththelinesofcommunicationsuchthatriftsoccurredintheorganization.D:Right.K:Weretherealsoindividualswhomaybestartedtomanifestthings?Likeyousaid,theorganizationwasagainstdrugs,butalsopeoplethatwere,probably–I’mguessing,youcancorrectme–embezzlingmoney,encouragingdruguse,doingpowergames,possiblyusingvariousnegativetechniques?D:AsfarasIcouldtell,anythinglikethatcamefromthetop



only.Itwasn’tpeopleintheorganization.Atthetop,Hubbardhadtohide.Heorderedmoneytakenoffthetop.Hehadtohideandhehadtoescapeconstantlyfromvariousgovernments.That’swhyhewasoutintheocean.Andhe...K:Butatthetopoftheorganization?You’resayingthosethingswouldhavedoneatthetop?D:NotdrugsthatIknowof,butmoney.Unbelievablesumsofmoneyweresiphonedofftheorganizationandcarried,handcarried,sothatHubbardcouldmaintainanabilitytonotbefound.Inpaperbagssometimes!Amillionbucksinapaperbag!K:Okay,soyou’resayingsomeofthemoney.ThebigthingaboutatleastthatIrememberaboutScientologywasthatitcostahugeamount.D:Huge!Andtheymanipulatedthepublictogetit.Theypromisedtheywouldgetsomanyabilities,theywouldmakebackthemoneytheyborrowedandgavetotheChurch.Mortgaginghouses,creditcardsetc.K:Andthenpeoplewerefunnelingmoneyinthereandyou’resayingsomeofitwenttoHubbard.I’massumingnotallofitwenttoHubbard.D:Well,muchofitdid,andtobuyinglandoutright.Now,inthepresentdaythemoneygoestothepersonwhotookover;oneofthechildren.TheyprobablygetitoffthetopthewayHubbardoncedid,

onlythey’realsoincahootswiththeIRSandthegovernment,theyarenothidinglikeRonwas,causetheymadepeacewiththecriminals.TheChurchhadsomuchdirtontheIRSthatDavidMiscavigeusedittodemandthattheybackofftheChurch.Itwaspureblackmail.Miscavige’sblackmaildroppedthe“charges”.K:Atthetopofthetriangle,didyouknowthenamesofpeoplewhobecameinstrumentalin...?Ididn’treadyourletteryet,soIdon’tknowifitnamednames.D:Notatall.Notatall.K:Soyoudidn’tnamenames.Butwereyouawareofthenamesofpeoplewhowereinstrumentalininfiltratingandinbringinginotherinfiltrators?

D:Letmetrytoremember.Givemeaminute.Canyourememberwhowas...?(Addressinghisfriend)K:Andyoudon’thavetopublicizethem.D:It’sokay.I’mjustaskingmyfriendifherecallsnames.Thisislikesooldforme.Almost30yearsago.Idon’trecallnamesofadultswhowerereallymessingstuffup.Irecallsomechildren’snames.Doyourecall?Itseemedthattherewerereallycompromisedpeople.D’sfriend:TheyformedaWatchdogCommittee.D:Ohyeah,theWatchdogCommittee.Theywerebad.Theywereadults.D’sfriend:ItwascomposedofanIRSmember.Idon’tknowhisname.D:Thatwasit.That’showtheydidit.D’sfriend:OneIRSmember,threelawyersandtherewasonesenior

officialfromtheChurch.SobasicallyitwastheWatchdogCommittee...Ronsetthisupwithjurisdictionovertheentireorganization,policy-wise,andtheycouldcomeinandcorrectwhateverneededtobecorrected.D:Rondid?Well,ifthatwastrueandheallowedtheIRSin,oneoftheworstenemies,thenhewasfullycompromisedorthatisanalteredfalsereportthathesetthatupthatway.Andthey,theWatchdogCommitteecouldkickasstoo,kickpeopleout;theycoulddoallkindsofstufftotheirpersonalbusinessandlivesand



reputations–whatevertheywantediftheywantedtodestroysomebodyanddecidedtheywereanenemyoftheorganization.D’sfriend:Basically,theorientationoftheWatchdogCommitteebecamelegal,sotheyformedupdummycorporationstoprotectthemoney,likefourorfivecorporationsdeep.Atremendousamountofmoneywasinvolvedandbasicallytheycamefromalegalstructure,organization,andvariousappropriationsofpublishingcorporationandsoforthbecameseparateentitiesand...D:Thepublishingcorporationswatereddownthematerial.D’sfriend:Thejuniors,thechildren,theguywhorunstheChurchnowwasoneofthemessengersandtherewasaboutfiveofthemandthebattlethatensuedwasthathefinallycameoutontop.D:Yes.Thechildrenfoughtforcontrolandthisguygotit.B:DavidMiscavige.Thisisallinthepublicdomain.D:PatandAnnieBroeker...Theyfoughteachothertogetcontrol.Wewereallwatchingandwonderingwhowasgoingtogetcontrol.Bigdramainhighplaces.Lotsofbodies.K:Okay.Sobutwhenthiswashappening,becausewhatwe’retryingtodoisbuildthescenariouptoyourwritingtheletter,soI’mtryingtopaintthatandsoIwaswondering:Atwhatpointdidyoubecomeaware,ifyoucanremembertheyear?D:Atthetime,’80,Ithink,’79,’80.K:Thereweresomeclearindicatorsthattheorganizationwasgoing

downthewrongroad.D:Yeah.AtthetimeIwroteit,afewofthechildrenwerefightingitoutandthatwaswhenIwrotetheletterandInamedthosechildrenintheletter.B:Buttherewereotherpeopleofcoursewhowereveryawareandbecomingseriouslyconcerned.Therewasagradual,asIunderstandit-thisisaquestion-therewasagradualrisingofawarenessandconcern,butnobodyactuallydidanything.D:Theleadersinthefieldreallytriedtodosomething.TherewasactuallyameetingonFlag,whichwasthemainheadquartersandalloftheheadsofindividualorganizations–calledfranchises–allmettogethertocomplainaboutthisWatchdogCommitteeandtheway

theywerebeingcontrolledandthetech[processingtechniques]wasbeingcompromised.K:Whatdoyoumean,itwason‘Flag’?Isthereaplacewhereitwasheld?D:Itwasaplace.Itwastheheadquarters,andIbelievethathappenedinFlorida,didn’tit?Orwasitonaship?D’sfriend:Clearwater,Florida.D:Theyhadalandheadquarters.Itwasn’tontheshipheadquarterswherethishappened.Sotheymet,allthesefranchiseholdersandheadsthatwereverypowerfulpeoplethatknewthetechniquesandhelpedotherstohavetheirownorganizationswherepeoplecouldcomeinandgoupthisladderofgettingtheirmemoryandtheirrecallandtheirfreedom,basically–theyweretheonesoutinthe

fieldthatweredeliveringthistothepublic.Andtheyallmettocomplainandmeet,wonderingwhatwashappeningtothisorganization.K:Didyougotothatmeeting?D:Iwasn’tatthemeeting.TheletterIwrotereportedaboutthatmeetingbecauseIheardwhathappenedinthemeetingandwhathappenedtothesestellarleadershadallbeenputdownandstoppedandputintosituationswheretheyweresaidtobecriminalswithintheorganization,kickedoutinsomecasesortoldthattheyhadtodomanythingstomakeupfortheterriblethingstheyhaddone.



Butthesewerethepeoplewhohadbuilttheorganization.TheseweretheleaderswithintheorganizationwhohadindependentlyformedtheirownorganizationswhichwerefeedersforthehigherlevelsinthelargerChurch-runorganizations.Theywereravagedinthismeetingthathappenedin1981.K:Weretheyinnocent?Isthatwhatyou’retryingtosay?D:Yeah.Theywereinnocent.Theywereleaderswhohaddonethemostfortheorganization.B:Theywerehighlyable,highlyrespected,realheroes...K:Okay,andso,onceagain...D:TheWatchdogCommittee,Ibelieve,thatwassomewhatmysterious.IthinkItalkedaboutthatintheletter.Itwassomewhatmysterious,whowaswhoinit,buttheyhadthispowerthatwassupposedlygivenbyRonbutifitwassignedbyRonIbelieveitwasdonethroughthechildren.Itwasn’tjustthatRonHubbardkneweverythingthatwasgoingon.Ifhedid,hisownmindwasmuchcompromisedintosomekindofstateofparanoia.Hehimselfknewhewasbeingattackedformanyyears.Certainlysincethe’70sheknewhehadtohide,andhehadtorun.Heknewhehadtobeontheseas.

Hischaracterofstrength,ofabilitytotakecareofhimselfandteachotherstoberesponsibleandstanduptoevil...Hewaslikethatandhetaughtthatandthepeoplehespawnedwerelikethat,sohewasoutthereonthehighseasdoingallofthisstuffandtheyhadpsychicabilitiestotellwhentherewasgoingtobeattacks,andwhatharbortogoin,whatharbornottogoin,allthesesortsofthings.So...somethinghappenedtohim.K:Somehowhegotcompromised.D:Hewascompromised,absolutely.K:Sothenwhatyou’resayingistheyhadthismeetingandwhatwastheresultofthemeeting?D:Theresultofthemeetingwasallthesepeoplethathadpower

werestoppedfromfunctioning,stoppedfromrunningtheirorganizations.K:Weretheyfired?Weretheyaskedtoleavetheorganization?D:Theywerefinedhugeamountsofmoneyandtoldthey’dcommittedcrimesthattheyhadn’tcommitted.Itwaspostedpublicly.Thepeoplewhowerethemostlookedupto.Peoplefeltbetrayedandconfused.Theleaderswerepubliclyhumiliated.K:Andjustbecausesomechurchfinesyoumoney,youdon’thavetopayit,doyou?D:Somepaid,somedidn’t.Butthingsjuststoppedworking.TheinfrastructureoftheChurchwasdysfunctional.Itsownmemberswereturningagainstthehierarchy.Confidentialmaterialswereleftin

theopen.K:Okay.Soatthatpoint,didyouhavepeopleleavingtheorganization?D:No.Nobodywasleaving.Therewasloyalty-anddisbeliefitwasallhappening.LiketheUSAnow!Thesepeopleweretryingtodosomethingaboutmankind.Sohere’stheorganizationdeliveringthesetechniquesandRonHubbardatthetopandnobodyknewwhathappenedtoRon.Manywhopeopleknewhimwereshutoutandcouldn’ttalktohim.K:Soyou’resayingtheystayedattached.



D:Theywereattached.K:Asenseofloyaltyforwhathehadgiventhem,orsomethinglikethat?D:Therewasmassiveconfusion,upsetandgreatbetrayal,includingofpersonswho’dworkedwithRondirectly.IwrotetheletterwithinamonthortwoafterthisMissionHoldersmeetingonFlag.TherewasoutrageaboutthemeetingatFlag,sopeoplestartedhavingsecretmeetingsaboutthebigmeeting;hushedconversationsinhallstalkingtoeachotheraroundtheworld.They’dgatherinpeoples’homesandtalkaboutwhathadhappened,andtheseoutrageousthingsthatwerehappeningtowaterdownandmisusetechniques;andnotusingtheorganizationssystemtodealwithdisagreementsordiscoverwhodidwhat,notusingitcorrectly,misusingitinkangaroocourtsofjudgmentinwhichpeoplewere“declaredevil”intheScientologyterminology,anostracism.Butifyoufoughtit,theywouldplantdrugsonyouorcallsyourfriends,family,employersandharassyou.Thismisuseofjusticehadbeencreepinginforsomeyears,butattheMissionHoldermeetingatFlag,thesystemcompletelycollapsed.Theyisolatedthehighestproducersandmostrespectedleadersintheorganizationandlabeledthemashavinghadcriminalbehavior.Theyhadtopaypenanceeitherinhardworkorlaborfordoingallthese“evil”things.TheChurchlevied“taxes”onanyonewhousedHubbard’stechniques.

TheTheyrequired10%ofyourgrossincomeifyouevenusedthesubjectinbusiness.Itwastheworstofcontrolandsuppressionpossibletothebasicsubject.Theoppositeofwhatshouldbedoneifonewantedthesubjecttobewellknownandwellthoughtof.Sopeopleweremeetingaroundtheworld.Theyweremeeting,andtheyweretalking,andtheyweretryingtounderstand:Where’sRon?WhathappenedtoRon?Howcanallthisbehappening?Tryingtofigureitout.Thesemeetingswereextremelyintense.Peoplewouldcrytheirheartsoutandscreaminrage.ManyofthepeopleIheardweepinghadbeenclosepersonalfriendsofRon.Therewasrealloveandgreat

dedicationandasenseofloyaltythatwasbetrayed.HowcouldRonletthisHappen?WhereIShe?WhatHAPPENEDtohim?Itwasheartbreaking.Itwastheseemotionsthatdrovemetowritetheletter.OneofthegreatstateddiscoveriesinScientologywasthe“ThirdPartyLaw”.Itstatedthatfortwosidestocontinuetohaveaconflict,thereHAStobeaHIDDENTHIRDPARTYwhoisinvisibleornotobvious,whoisactuallycausingitall.Thatwasthecoresubjectofmyletter.K:Okay,sonowlet’sgetbacktoyou.Sopeopleweredoingthis.Youweren’tatthatinitialmeetinginFlorida.Atthesametimeyouhad,Iassume,friendswhowerethere.Andso,thenwhathappened?Didyouparticipateinmeetingslikeyou’redescribing?D:Yeah.Istartedgoingtothemandlisteningtowhatwasgoingon,

tothesepeoplethatwereheroesthathadhelpedsomanypeople;Ilistenedtothemtalkingaboutwhathadhappened.K:Okay,sowhatpropelledyou,then,towritetheletter?D:Peoplewouldcrytheirheartsoutandscreaminrageandanguish.IwitnessedsomepeopleuncontrollablyweepingwhowereclosepersonalfriendsofRon.Webelievedthattheplanetwasonthebrinkofdestructionandthat



weweregoingtosaveit.Webelievedwehadthemeanstodoso.Wewereamovement.Webelievedourhistoryandourfuturewasinthestars,justasBobDeansays.K:Okay.D:AndIwasgivingcounselingsomeonewhoworkeddirectlyforRonHubbard’schildren,soIwasfindingoutaboutallsortofuntowardthingswheretheycouldn’tseeRonHubbard,theycouldn’treachhim,theirmotherwascontrolledandcouldn’treachhim,andthatthisMessengerOrganizationandtheWatchdogCommitteewereallstandinginbetweenandtheyruledwhathappenedtoRonHubbardandnocommunicationscouldgobackandforth.Ronandhiswifehaddecidedtoseparatetomakeitharderontheauthoritiestolocatehim,butthatmayhavebeenamanipulationbytheMessengerOrgtoo.MaybetheMessengerOrgitselfcreatedfalsestoriesandutilizedtheresultingfearinLRHandhisfamilytomakeitimpossibleinthefuturetoevermeetagain.Sosomethingwaswrong;thefamilycouldn’ttellRonaboutanythinganymore.SoIkepthearingaboutthat.Thekids-hiskids-wereveryupsetandhurt.K:Okay,andsowhatmadeyousitdownandwritetheletter?D:Thedesiretosavethesubjectandhavethesubjecthelpmankindthewayithadstartedoutto.K:Okay,butwasthereany,youknow,ifIwaswritingamovie,wasthereanyincitingincidentthatactuallysaidtoyouthatyouhave

specialknowledge,specialaccess,andthatyoucouldwritealetterthatmighthaveaneffect?D:Thefinalthingthatcausedmetowriteitwasthatsevereanddangerousunrestbrokeoutinthepublicsector.ThemegasizeLAorganizationwasstormedbyalargecrowdofupsetScientologists.Theyenteredthehugedownstairsdiningroom.Thereweremoreoutsidethebuildingwithmegaphones,andtheyweresurginginlargenumbers.Itwasclosetoafullriot,reallyoutofhand.TheChurchauthoritiescouldn’tcontrolit.Itwaslikeaviolentrevolutionstarting.Next,therewasgoingtobebrokenwindowsandphysical

fightingandhospitalizations.Itreallylookedtomeasifitcouldstartgettingviolent.Iwasthereandwitnesseditall.Peoplewerecitinginjusticesonthemegaphoneandscreaminginprotestandweepingonthemegaphonesaboutinjusticesanditwasbecomingmobmentality.TheChurchauthoritieshadultimatecontrolbecausetheycouldthreatenexcommunication.Buttheauthoritywaswearingthin.Ifitweren’tforthisreallifesituation,myletterwouldhavehadlessimpact.B:Wow.Ineverheardaboutthat.D:Criticalmasswasreached.Itfeltasiftherewasgoingtoberealviolence.TheauthoritiesintheChurchwereclearlyafraid,tryingtocalmthecrowddown.Thenextday,atanotherorganization

whereIwasworking,IheardabouttheriotfromRon’schildren’sviewpointtoo.Acoupleofthem-ArthurandYvette-workedthatotherorganizationinLA.Theywerescaredtoo.PeopleweredemandingthattheygetintouchwithRonandtheycouldnot.Diana,anotherolderkid,wasnotinthatoffice,butI’msureshefeltthepressureterribly.Thesekidsarealivenow,andtheywereallboughtoff.K:Weretheyveryyoungatthatpoint?



D:Teenagersatthemost,andoneofhischildrenwaskilledandleftinthedeserttodie.B:YoumeanQuentin.D:Yeah.K:Didhedie?D:Yeah.HewaskilledandleftinthedesertoutsideofVegas.K:Anddidthathappenbeforeyouwrotetheletter?B:There’saweirdofflinehere:KitGreenprovidedmewithhisautopsyreport.K:Irememberthat.D:Ohyeah?Whatwasit?B:Suspicious.Icanshowyouthedetails.D:I’dliketoseeit.B:I’vegotit.I’lle-mailittoyou.D:IfeltterribleaboutQuentin.Hewasoneofthedearestpeoplethereevercouldbe.HeusedtocometoLAandletuswatchhimdosessions.Hewasamasteratthetechniques.Ronsaidhewasthebestintheworld.D’sfriend:CanIaddsomethinghere?Basicallythemainorganizationwastakenoverbythesenewpeople,childrenthatwerecomingup.Themissionsortheoutlyingterritorieswherepeoplewereactuallylearningthetechnologyweredoingatremendousjob.Thepeoplewhowererunningthemainorganizationdidn’tunderstandwhyallthisactivitywasgoingonintheoutsideandtheythought

thatthemissionswererippingthemoff,takingallthemoneythatshouldhavebeenturnedintothecentralorganizationandallthatmoneywasbeingfedouttoallthemissionpeoplefortheiractivities.Andsoyouhavethisareawherethere’safightgoingon,abattleisgoingonbetweenthecentralandtheoutlyingorganizations...Imean,oneoftheseniorofficialsusedtocarrya.45andhehaditonhisdeskandthatwaswhoyou’dgotalkto,andhere’sthe.45lookingrightatyou.D:You’retalkingaboutRuss?D’sfriend:No.D:Wellhehadonetoo.D’sfriend:Anyway,oneofthebasictenetsofthiswholetechnology

wasthatanytimeyouhaveabattlewhenyouhavefightofanykindbetweentwopeople,lookforathirdparty.D:Right.D’sfriend:AndtheThirdPartyLawwhichisallwrittenupinallthetechnologyitselfbecamevery,veryapparent,Ibelieve,toDane.D:Yeah.Itwasveryapparentthatthebattlewasnotbetweenthecentralorganizationandtheseoutlyingones.Therewassomebodycausingthatbattletohappen,thatcausedtheorganizationtofightitself.Andthat’showitwastakendown,essentially.Itfoughtitself.Theydideachotherin.Peopledideachotherin.It’slikepeople

thataremarrieddideachotherin.Peoplethatlovedeachother,workedtogether,cameuptherankstogether,agreedonthesameprinciples,weretherealtruistically,nottherebecausetheywantedtomakeabuck–theyweretheretosavemankind,andtheybelievedRonHubbardthattheplanetwasgonnabetakendown,andtheycouldseeitforthemselveswhentheyrememberedtheirownhistorythatitwasarepeatperformanceonEarthcomingrightondownthepikeagain.TheywantedtoassistpeopletoWAKEUP,recallwhotheywere



andare,andtosavetheplanet.D’sfriend:Letmefinishmythought,whichwastheThirdPartyLaw.It’sthatmostofthepeoplethatwereinthismovementwereveryconsciousoftheThirdPartyLaw.AndwhentheDaneTopslettercameoutaboutwhathadhappenedattheMissionHolderMeetinginFlorida,therewasanedictthatwasputoutbythecentralorganizationthatiftheydidn’tlikewhatyouweredoing,whattheysaidwasthatyouareexcommunicatedbytheChurch,period.That’sit,nothingyoucando.Andtherewerehundredsandhundredsoftheseedictsthatwereputoutallatonceinamatterofthree,fourweeks,oramonthandahalf.K:By?D’sfriend:Thecentralorganization,whichthechildrenandthevariousalphabetagencypeoplewereinchargeof.Dane’sletterwentout...andthere’sanotherfactorinvolvedhere.WhathappenedwasthatthecentralorganizationformedupwhatwascalledtheFinancePoliceandtheywouldcomeintotheoutlyingfranchiseoperations,andIknowspecificallybecauseagoodfriendofmineranoneoftheorganizationsandtheytoldhim:Youoweus$15,000,whichisexactlywhattheyhadintheiraccount.Theytookallthemoneyoutoftheaccount.Theyjusttookit.TheybroketheMission.D:“Mission”isanothernameforaScientologyfranchise.

D’sfriend:We’retheFinancePoliceandthereforewe’retotallyinchargeofallthemoneywhichissupposedtocomeback.Nowthishappenedworldwide.Nowyoucanimaginewhatthiscentralorganizationissaying:Allyourmoneyismine.Dane’slettercomesout.Everybodygetstheletter,andsays,Lookatthis:WhoISthethirdparty?D:That’swhatIwroteinmyletter.D’sfriend:AndeverybodyissayingtheThirdPartyiswho?AndthisquestionthatwentoutinDane’sletterthatendedupbeingsenttoeverybody.Thisiswhatstartedthewholefullschismandexodus.K:Aspiraling.D’sfriend:Aspiral.Right.D:Itwasnotjustthatpartofuswaswrongandotherswereright.

TherealdestroyeroftheChurchwassomethinghiddenoutsideofallus,plantingfalseinformationandmakingusfightourselvesandmostofall,thefounder,RonHubbard.K:Butbeforewegettoexactlytheletter,justalittlebitmorebackgroundintermsofhereyouare.Thisisoccurringaroundyou,you’regoingtothesemeetingsthatyoudescribed,andthere’snotjustyou,butthere’stwootherpeoplethatyou’rekindoflikeinasmallgroupwith.Isthatcorrect?D:Theyweren’tpartofthesemeetings.Theywantednothingtodowiththewholething.Oneofthepeopleinthesmallgroupwasalreadyoutoftheorganizationandhadalreadyseenthewritingonthewall-andtheotheronewasafraidtogetinvolved,orbeseen

asgoingagainsttheChurch.Itwasonlymyselfwhowenttothemeetingsandpublicoutcriesanddownrightinsurrection.K:Okay,soyouwerealonethere.Werethosetwopeopleworkingwithyou?Becauseyousaidyouwereworkingwithtwootherpeople.Weretheyinvolvedinwritingtheletter?D:No.Theyhadnothingtodowithit.Itwastotallyindividual,justmyself.TheworkIwasdoingwiththeminvolvedtheseenhancedpsychicabilitytechniquesthatwereoriginallyderivedfromthethreemonthsofanETcontact.



Oneofthethreeofushaddevisedsometechniquestoo,andweutilizeditall.Wewereworkingwitheachothertobringthetechniquestoahigherlevel...JustthetechnologyitselfthatHubbarddid,weenhancedittomakeitgofarthersothatwewouldhavemoreabilitiesandmorestabilityonceachievingthem.AndthatwastheonlyworkIwasdoingwiththetwootherpeople.K:Okay,hereinthesettingatthispoint,Idon’tknowwhatyearareweat?D:Allofthishappenedbetween’80and’82.K:Soatthispoint,youdecidetowritealetter.IsityourETcontactthatsaysyou’vegotinformationoradownloadthatsayswritethisletterorhelpedyouwriteit?Orwasitsomeotherstimulusthatwasdirectthatmadeyouwritetheletter?D:ThepublicriotinLAwasthelaststraw.Itwastrulyfrightening.Ihadstrengthfrommyexperienceofenhancedabilities.InretrospectandhavinglearnedalltheinformationonCamelot,IcannowseethatImusthavehadanETcontacttocausetheabilitytogowithoutfood,waterandsleepforthreemonthsanddownloadthematerialaboutthecreationofthehumanrace-andmuchmore.Togobeyondthe“veil”,onemightsay.ButthethingsthathappenedtogivemethecouragetocreateDaneTopsandwritingtheletter,

wasnotanETcontactassuch.DaneTopswasbornoutofapassionatedesiretosavetheChurchofScientologyandL.RonHubbardfromdestruction.K:Justasoberanalysisfromthepointofviewofaperson,yourself,whohadsomeinsideaccessandknowledgeandthenwithwhatwasgoingonaroundyouwhowere,basically,itwasfallingapart–asitwas–asyoudescribedit.D:Fallingapart,butnobodywasleaving.K:Okay.Eventhoughtheywerebeingsentletterstobeexcommunicated,theywouldn’tleave.D:Theywouldn’tleave.K:Okay.Soatthatpoint,withthatsetting,youwriteyourletter.

Okay,nowyouhadtobehiddenatthatmoment.D:IwasalwayshiddenasDaneTops.K:Inotherwords,youhaveapersonathattheyknowyouas.Whenyouwalkin,theywouldsayhello?D:Yeah.TheywouldknowmejustasIamnow,butIbecamesomeoneelseandIworedifferentclotheswhenIwasDaneTops.Iwasn’trecognizableatall.Iusedadifferentlicenseplateonmycar.Ihadacompletedisguise.K:Todowhat?D:TobeDaneTops.BecausewhatIdidwasIgotamailboxthatwas...actuallyIhadtofindamailboxwhereIcouldn’tbefollowedorknown,thatwouldn’tbeanormalsuspectedmailbox,soItookoutamailboxinthenameofDaneTopsandthemailboxwasactuallyina

businessofmailboxesthatwereutilizedforpornographymailbetweenpeople.Therewassomesecurityaroundittoprotectitfromthelaw.K:Soyouthoughtofthisaheadoftime.B:Thisisveryimportantpartofthestory.K:[toBill]Iknowit’simportant,sojustletmesetthescenesoIcanunderstandthestoryalittlebitmore.[ToDane]IwanttounderstandbecauseIknowyoumightknowa



littlebitmore,butIknownothing,soI’mjusttalkingtoyouassomeonewhoknowsnothingaboutwhatyoudidandhowyoudidit.Youwantedtowritethisletter.Didyoudecidetowritetheletterandthenfigureouthowtoputitoutthere?Ordidyoufirstfigureouthowtodisguiseyourself,knowingwhatthisorganizationwoulddotoyouifyouwrotesuchaletter?DoyouseewhatI’masking?D:Iwrotetheletteroutofmyownpassion,andIhadn’tfiguredoutallofthis,becauseIhadnoideaoftheimpacttheletterwouldhavewhenIwroteit.IwrotetheletterandsentittoaLosAngelesmailinglistofcertainkeypeople,maybe20or30peopleoriginally,that’sallThat’stheonlytimeIevermailedit.ButIwantedareturnaddresstoseeifanyoneresponded,andthatneededtobetotallyhiddensotheywouldn’tfindoutwhoIwas.K:Theydidn’thavee-mailthen,sohowdidyousendit?D:Byregularmail,snailmail.K:Andwasittraceable?D:Yeah,becauseIhadthereturnaddresswhichwasthisphonyPostOfficeboxthatwasarealoneunderthenameofDaneTops,andDaneTopsiswhosignedtheletter.WhenIwenttogetmailfromthatPostOfficebox,Iworeadisguise

andIhadafalselicenseplate.BecauseIknewtheorganizationwouldbesurveilingit.K:Soyouhadadisguise,Okay.Yousentouttheletterbeforeyoudecidedtoprotectyourself?D:IthinkbeforeIsentitout,IgotthePOBoxsoIwasprotectedwhenIsentit.ButwhenIwroteit,Ididn’tknowwhatIwasgoingtodo.Ijustwroteitoutofmyownpassionanddesire.ButthenwhenIdecidedtosenditoutandgotsomesignificantsnail-mailaddressesofmajorpeopleintheorganizationinLA,IdecidedIcan’tbeknownorallowmyselftobediscovered.IsignedDaneTopsoutofnowhereandIdidthisthingwithapornographicsnail-mailaddress.Ihadtofigureouthowtodisguise

myself.Igotanideathatwaswildforme,togosomewhereIhadneverbeen.IgotmydisguisebecauseIwenttoagaypornoman’smovieandIlookedatthewaytheyweredressedintrenchcoatswhentheywentbecausetheywouldgointhesemoviesandmasturbateinthemoviesandmakeconnectionsinthemovies.SoIwenttoseveralofthesemoviesinatrenchcoatoutfitandcopiedtheirmannersandthenIfoundoutwhereoneofthesepornoaddresseswasbyaskingfromoneoftheguysinthemoviewhothoughtIwasagaytoo.Ihadtoreallytakecareofmyselfthere.K:Didyougetadvicefromsomebody,ordidyouthinkofthisallon

yourown?D:Itwasallonmyown.Iwrotetheletter.ThenIhadthethought:HowamIgonnadothis?Ithought:Well,I’lltrythis;I’lljustdressuplikeoneofthoseguyswhogotothesemoviesinHollywood.Thosemovieswerearoundandyouwouldseethemenoutsideandtheywereslinkyandindisguise.Istartedgoingtothemovies.IfoundoutfromoneofthemwhereIcouldgetasecretaddressbecausethey



hadsecretaddresses.Gaylifewasdifferentthen.K:That’sgreat.

D:[laughs]B:Now,atthattime,nobodyelse,notonepersonatthattime,knewthatyouweredoingthis.D:No.B:Thiswasabsolutelysolo,atotalpersonalsecret.Nobodyknew.D:Right.K:Didyouhaveromanticpartneratthattime?Andshedidn’tknow?D:No,shedidn’tknow.Shewasverymuchintheorganization,butshewouldn’thaveagreedwithanythingthatIwasdoing,soIhadtokeepquietwithher.AndIkeptbringingthisweirdoutfithomeinasuitcase,soitwasveryweird.K:Soyousenttheletteroutwithoutherknowingaboutit?D’sfriend:Iwastheretoo.YoutoldmeaboutitandIgotveryalarmedsinceIwasreally...D:Youwerehighup,higherupthanIwas.D’sfriend:Igotveryalarmedandsaid:Well,thisisallreallyincredible.[Danelaughs]Whatareyougoingtodotoprotectyourself?Andthenhecameupwithwhateverhedidtocreatetheimage,becauseIthoughtifthisgetsout,thenwe’realldead,

anyonewhoknowsyou.D:Deadmeat,yeah.K:Butyouknewaheadoftimethatifthisletter...atthattimeyouknew,becausenowIwouldsayeveryonewouldknow.D:AtthattimeIknew,yes,Kerry.K:Youknewthey’dkillyouovertheletter.D:Ididn’tknowifthey’dkillme.Workmeover,maybe,butIknewthatwewouldbeexcommunicatedandanykindofreputationmywifeandIhadwouldberuined,allourmailwouldbegonethroughfromthereonout,we’dbeharassedwherewelivedandworkedandourneighborswouldbeharassed.Theywouldn’tnecessarilykillme,buttheydidalotofbadthings,likethey’dplantdrugsonyouandgetyouthrowninjail.They’ddo

thingslikethattoruinyourlifeifyouweremessingwiththem.Manyliveswereruined.B:Andyousaid,Ithinkbeforewestartedrecordingthis,thattheythrewalotofresourcesatfindingoutwhothispersonwas.D:Wellyeah,becausewhenIsentitoutjusttoLosAngelespeople.Ididn’tknowwhatwasgoingtohappen.Iwasamazed!Whenitmushroomedandexploded,theywentafterme.D’sfriend:IwaslookingatacliponMiscavigeanditturnsoutthathe’s47or49now.Ithoughtthatwasamazing.Timereallyflies.D:ThatmeanshewasalateteenwhenhetookovertheChurch.But

hehadstartedintheChurchwhenhewasalittle,littlechild.D’sfriend:Hestartedwhenhewasfourorfive.B:Fourorfive,that’sunbelievable.D’sfriend:Therewassomeattentiontosomeeducationeitherhomeschoolingor...D:Well,hecouldreadandwrite.D’sfriend:ButtherewassomeChurcheducation.D:Yeah.Thehard-assstuff.D’sfriend:Butmostlyitwascrazy.D:Itwasalldiscipline.Itwaslikemilitarydisciplineforlittle



children.D’sfriend:Yeah.Badnewsforkids.D:Unlessyougottobeinpower,thenyouwereprivileged.[laughs]D’sfriend:Yeah,really.Theyhadtheirhierarchyintherealso.D:Everythinghadahierarchy.That’swhatitwasallbuilton,right?D’sfriend:Right,who’sthetopdog.D:Right.D’sfriend:I’vereadsomeofthearticlesonMiscavige’sescapades,andsomeofthepeoplewentintogreatdetailbecauseTheTimesinClearwater...Ithinkthreeguysleftandwentpublic,publishedtheirstoriesinTheTimesinClearwateraboutMiscavige’sescapades.D:Whatwerethey?D’sfriend:Heendedupusingrawforcetocontrolpeople.Imean,slapthemintheface,punchthem,jumpupanddown,hittheminthesideofthehead,andsmashthemintheears.D:Heavy,heavy,heavy.Yes,badstoriesaboutthatguy.D’sfriend:Andbecauseittakesrawforce...MiscavigeistheonethatgottheIRStoclassifyScientologyasaChurch,asareligion,whichisaninterestingthinginitself.Hegotthelegalstatusas

areligion.D:SoheletallthoseIRSagentsin?Miscavigedidit?D’sfriend:Miscavigewentthrough,gotatremendousamountoflegalbackgroundonalltheIRSpeople.D:Well,theChurchhadbeendoingtheresearchontheIRSandcollectingfilesonitforyears:soMiscavigewantedtomakepeacewiththem?D’sfriend:No,hewantedadealupfrontandhelaiditoutonewayortheother.TheyhadthegoodsonthegovernmentandIRS.TheedictfromDavidMiscavigewas:Ifyouwillgiveuswhatwewant,wewillnotprosecuteyoupersonally,officially.Andhediditupfront.Imeanhewentthereinhisusualmanner,usedalotof

force.D:Sothiswaswhat,age18orsomething?D’sfriend:Yeah.ThiswasthetimewhentheChurchflippedoverandbecamealegalentitywithgovernmentprotectionandtheynolongerattackedthegovernmentafterthat.D:Isee-legal,doesn’thavetopaytaxes,areligion.D’sfriend:Andthewholetransactionneverwentpublic.D:Right.Nothingwentpublic.Nobodyknowsaboutit.D’sfriend:Well,theyknowithappenedbutnobodycanfindadate.Itwasacorporatestructure,andit’sallprivate.Sothewholeareawasturnedinto...theenergywasphysical,rawenergythat’sbeingused.Evenhisnieceturnedagainsthim.D:DavidMiscavige?

D’sfriend:Yeah,wentpubliconit.D:Andsaidwhat?D’sfriend:Thathewasabadpersonandhewas...D:Beatinguppeopleandstuff?D’sfriend:Beatinguppeople,usingundueforce,norealcommunication,etcetera.ButhereallygotcrazywhenhestartedbeatinguptheExecutiveCommittee.D:HeactuallywasphysicallybeatinguptheExecutiveCommittee?D’sfriend:Yeah.D:GoodGod.He’sreally,wow,heavyduty.Doeshebeattheshitout



ofthemordoeshejustslapthemaround?D’sfriend:Someofthemheslappedaround,someofthemhekicked.Hehitsthemhard.D:Likeonehardhit,likehecandeliveragreatpunch?D’sfriend:Yeah,butsometimeshewoulddoitinaveryinopportunedegreeor...D:Doitinfrontofpeopletohumiliatethem.Right?D’sfriend:Yeah.Absolutely.There’sonebossandthat’shim.There’sOne.D:Didn’tyousayhedidthattoTomCruise?D’sfriend:No.D:Itwassomebigstarwhoheslappedaround.OhIknow,itwaswhenhewasmarriedto...whowasthatAustralianladyTomCruisewasmarriedto?B:NicoleKidman.D:NicoleKidman.Weren’tyoutheonethattoldmewhathappenedwiththat?D’sfriend:No,notme.D:SomebodytoldmewhathappenedwithMiscavigeandTomCruise.D’sfriend:Oh,hecameontoherandsaidthatshewasabitch.D:MiscavigetoldthattoTomCruise?D’sfriend:No,toldittoNicoleKidman,thatshewasabadinfluence.D:MiscavigetoldthattoNicoleKidman?

D’sfriend:AndhetoldCruisethatshewasabadinfluenceonhim.D:Andthat’swhytheygotdivorced?D’sfriend:Idon’tknowifthat’sthecase.D:But,Imean,ifhesaysit,thenTomCruisehastopayattentiontoitthen.K:NicoleKidmanwasalsoaScientologist?D’sfriend:Notanymore,Ibet.D:Butthisguy,DavidMiscavige,thisMessengerwhogotcontroloftheChurch,bad-mouthedhertoTomCruisereallyheavyduty.K:So,hewasinvolved.D’sfriend:Well,everybodytookMiscavigeseriously,becausehebeatpeopleupandhewasgoodatit.[laughs]K:Hephysicallybeatpeopleup.

D:Yeah,that’sright,inhumiliatingways,infrontofothers.K:Iknow,butifsomebodydoesthat,you’dexpectthemtolosefollowers,normally.D’sfriend:Well,hewasinapositionofbeingTHEseniorintheChurch,andhecouldkicksomebodyoutatwill,asIFhewereRon.That’sthepowertheMessengershadgotten.Peopledidnotwanttobekickedout.D:See,wherethewholecontrolgoesinonthepopulaceoftheChurchisthattheideathattheyareholdingthenextlevelthat’sgoingtogiveyouthiskindoffreedomofretrievingallthesesuperabilities...tosaveyourimmortalsoul!Everhearofthat?K:Holdingontoknowledge.

D:That’sright,andthefactis,theChurchstopsatacertainlevel,andafterHubbarddied–actuallybefore–theydidn’thavemorelevelstooffertokeepadvancingpeople,sothat’swhentherealscamstarted.Butiftheyrestoredthefulluseofthetechniques,peoplewouldn’tputupwiththepolicecontrol.Theybecomeindividuallypowerful,andwillnotbecomeaslave.K:Thelevelsstoppedafterhedied.D:Thetruedeliverywascompromisedbeforehedied.Thescamisthatyouaregoingtobecomecompletelyenlightened;your



enlightenmentprocesswillcontinueandfinishtothepointoffullgodhoodprovidedyougetthenextlevelandpayforit–andit’salwaysthenextlevel.They’reconstantlydiggingaroundinoldmaterialandtryingtocomeupwithsomethingnew,butitisn’t.Andinfacttherealtechniquesthatwillgetyouthemoststabilityinhigherpowersaren’tbeingusedatallandweremostlyabandoned,astheytaketoolongtodeliverandpeoplecandoitwitheachotherfornomoney.B:I’vegotalittlequestionthatfitsinwiththis,andthatisthatIwasveryinterestedtoknowwhethertheideaofwritingaletterwassomethingthatsortofslowlycreptuponyou-orwhetheritcametoyouinakindofblindingflashofinspiration.D:ItwasprettymuchasIdescribedafewminutesago.Myimpetusstartedafteroneterriblywrenchingmeetingwherepeoplewereingreatemotionalpainabouthavingnoanswers.ThiswasduringthesecretclandestinemeetingsaftertheinfamousMissionHoldersMeeting.ThentheLAriot.Thelettercameoutofneedtodosomethingaboutitall,justatotaldesperationandupsetaboutwhatwashappeningtoourabilitytohelppeopleworldwide.K:Hadyoueverwrittenanotherletterthatmadeyouwanttowritethisone?D:Notintheorganization,no.I’dwrittentoRonHubbardbefore,andreceivedanswersfromhim,buttheyweren’ttosavetheorganization.Theywerejustthingswithinittoassistitto

deliverwell.K:Andwasthatcommonthatpeoplewouldwritehim?D:Yes.Peoplewrotehimallthetime,buttheydidn’tgetdirectanswersalot.Forsomereason,hewrotebacktomeandIwasalwaysproudofthat.IhadhighstatsorproductionandhetooknoticeofthemethodsIwasusingandvalidatedthat,andevenwroteaadministrativedirectiveaboutthetechniqueIwasusinganditwentoutworldwide.Iwasveryproudofthat.[laughs]B:Butatthispoint,Istillwanttointerjectforthebenefitofanyonewhoisreadingthistranscript,andhasn’tseentheletter

thatwillaccompanythistranscript...a“letter”makesitsoundlikealittleletterofacoupleofpagesthatyouwriteonapieceofnotepaperandputinanenvelope.Thisisatenthousandwordmajorpresentation,andassomebodywhowritesmyselfandsometimesIthink,wellI’mgoingtowriteafewparagraphshere,anditendsupbeinghuge.Whatwasyourexperiencewhenyouwroteit?Didyou,justlikeyouturnedonthetapandthenitjustflowed?Diditcomeoutinonegoordidyouhavetoworkonitforaweek?D:Onego.

B:Onego.Becausewhatmanypeopleseemtohaveexperiencedinreadingthatletteristhatitwasn’tonlyapresentationofclarifying,de-confusing,information,butitwasactuallyinspiringinitself.Itcontainedsomethingbetweenthelines,betweenthewords.ThiswaswhatIfeltwhenIreadit,andthiswasn’teventhereatthetime.Thiswasmanyyearslater,andIthought,myGod,youknow.ThisisbeforeImetyou.Thatletterhadanenergyandspiritofitsownlikearolling



snowball,justrolling,rolling,rolling,thatpeopleseemedtohavebeeninspired,thattheyfeltdrawntocopyitandsendittosomebodyelse,andthentheycopiedit,andtherearecopiesofcopiesofcopies.Youcouldn’tstopthisthingbecausethespiritwithwhichyouimbueditseemedtobepickedupbythepeoplewhoreceivedtheletters.Wouldyousaythat’saccurate?D:Ohyeah.Afterthat,mylifebecametryingtodealwithallthemail.JustabouttheonlyplacesIdidn’tgetmailfromintheworldwastheFarEastandtheIronCurtain,youknow,thecommunistcountries.ButIactuallydidgetsomemailfromRussia.EverywesterncountryIgotalotofmailfrom.K:So,youhadadisguise,youhadapostbox,youmailedtheletter.Inasense,wereyoucontinuingyournormallifenotdisguised,andthenyou’dgoinandpickupyourmail,inyourdisguise,Iassume?D:Yeah.K:Butnooneeverfoundout,ortracedyou,orfollowedyou.D:No,buttheytried.K:Didtheyhavesuspicion?D:No.Theytried,theyreallytried.Iwasneverquestioned.Theywouldn’thaveknownitwasmewhentheycasedthePOBox.Seedytypesfrequentedthatmailboxcenterthroughthedoors,which

youhadtogetthroughfirstwithID.I’dthoroughlymadesurewiththeownerthathewouldneverrevealwhosemailIwaspickingup,ifsomeonecameinafterwardsandtriedtobribehimtotell,whichtheyDID-hesaid.Ofcourse,hethoughtIwashidingduetoillegalpornographyissuesandthatwouldhaveaffectedhisillegalbusinesstorevealmyidentity.Iwasdressedasaseedy,gayman.Sothatmeanttheownerofthebusinesswasnotbribable,andthat’swhatI’dthoughtoutbeforehand,andwhyIhadchosensuchabizarresetting.Hehadhundredsofmailboxes.TheChurchwouldn’thaveanywayof

knowingwhenpeoplewentinthebuildingwhowasgoingtopickupDaneTops’mail.IknewthatitwasasafebetbeforehandbecauseIwasgoingtoputareturnaddress.IknewtheyweregoingtowatchtheplaceandlookforDaneTops,evenifitonlyreachedtheoriginal20or30peopleIsentitoutto.Ididn’thowhardtheytriedtofindmeandhowmuchmoneytheyspenttodoituntillaterwhenIstartedhearinginsideinfoaboutthesearchforDaneTops.K:Howmuchlaterwasthat?D:Well,IwasstillinthemainorganizationandcouldgoinandoutasIpleased,anddiscusstheterribleletterwithothers,andseewhattheyweregoingtodoaboutthisinstigator![laughs]Istillkeptgoingtotheseclandestineillegalmeetingstoo,and

[laughs]Iwasgettingallthismailcominginfromaroundtheworld,andatthesemeetings,theystartedacknowledgingDaneTopsandapplauding.IwasflabbergastedthefirsttimeIhadtostandupandtoastandapplaudmyselfalongwiththeothers.Someofthepeopleinthemeetingshadwrittentomeinprivate.There’dbeameetingof50ofthesepeoplethatfeltmorepowernowbecauseoftheletterandtheywerealltalkingabouttheletterformanymonths,youknow,andthey’dstartpraisingDaneTops,andI



wouldstandrighttheretoastingmyselfalongwiththem-becauseitwouldhavebeenweirdifIdidn’t.They’dtoastaboutallthecopiesofitthatweregoingallaroundtheworldandtherewouldbestacksofprintedlettersforpeopletotakeandsendouttoothers.Iwasastonished.Iwasjustthereasmyrealself,listeningtoallthis.K:So,howmanypageswastheletter?B:Itrunstoabouttenthousandwords.Ifyouprintthatout,that’swhat?Imean,it’sabigpiece.K:Idon’tunderstandnumberslikethat.Howmanypages?B:Iwouldsayabout20or30pages.Isthataboutright?Itwasquitealot,youknow.D:Itdidn’tseemlongtome.K:Iknowthatthisisadetail,butwasittyped?D:Ididitwithatypewriter.AndthenIgotridofthetypewriter,becauseIdidn’twantittobetraced.B:Andthenyousigneditatthebottom,andtherewasthisfascinatinglittlesubplotthatpeopleweretryingtodecipherthisextraordinarylittlesignature.D’sfriend:It’sstillonthenet.It’sstillgoingon.Therearestillargumentsaboutitstillgoingon:Whodidit?Whowasit?

B:So,atrivialquestion:Wheredidthatnamecomefrom?Whatastrangename.It’sverymemorable.Butwheredidthatcomefrom?D:Idon’tknow.Itjustcameoutofme,andIsignedit.B:Great.K:Soyoumaileditout,yousentitout,andatthatpoint,howmanydaysbeforeyoustartedgettinganyreactionwhatsoeverbacktoyou?D:One.K:One?How?D:Ididn’tgotothePOBoxforaweek,butlettershadbeencominginallweekfromthedayafteritwassent.Someonehandcarriedananswertothemailboxtogetitthereimmediately,andthenIjust

receivedmoreandmoreandmoremailfromalloverLAandtheUS,andthentheworld.K:Andwhenpeoplewrotetoyou,whatweretheysaying?D:ThankGodsomebody’swrittenthis.You’reright,I’mfree...K:Now,youdidn’twritebacktothosepeople,didyou?D:Iwrotebacktoalotofpeople.K:AsDaneTops?D:Mmhm.Iwrotebacktohundredsofpeople.Therewerethousandsofletters.K:AndwiththereturnaddressatthesamePOBox?D:Yes,Ikeptupthedisguiseandthelicenseplateandthewholepersona.ThereweresomepeopleIhadquiteabitofcorrespondencewith.

B:Butyousaidyougotthousandsofreplies.D:Oh,manythousands.Foratleastayearortwo.Idon’tknowhowmany.B:It’sveryinterestingforusintheageofe-mailstoactually...Imean,thousandsofphysicallettersisquitesomething.Andalsoofcoursethere’satimedelaybeforethesethingsgetphysicallyphotocopiedandthensentoutinthemailacrosstheworld.AndIremember,forinstance,readingthereport,IthinkitwasfromoneoftheEuropeancountries,thattheDaneTopsletterreachedthemthenextyear,likeasteamship,youknow.Reallyvery



funny,thisthingwaskindofgraduallymovingaroundtheworld.Andintoday’sterminology,itwentviral.D:IneversentittoanybodybuttheoriginalLAlist.Ineversentittoanybodybutthat,sotherestofitwasfromthoseoriginalpeoplesendingit.K:AnddidHubbardeverreadit?D:Bythattimeyoucouldn’tgettohim,butIhadhopethatitwould.IwastryingtogettohimbecausemysmallgrouphaddevisedtechniquesthatwebelievedwecouldundowhatwashappeningtoHubbard,whatwasthematter,whyhistechnologygotstoppedatacertainplace.Webelievedwecouldrepairwhathadhappenedtohim,whatwasstoppinghim.Butwecouldn’tgettohimbecausehewasalreadycompletelyquarantined.Hewasoutinthedesert.So,thechildrenwouldnevergivehimthatletter,evenifanadultgaveittothemtodeliverit.K:Butifyougooutofbody,youcancommunicatewithhim.Didn’tpeoplethinkthattheycoulddothat?Weren’ttheygettingreportsback,andsoon?D:Bythe’80s,theseskillsweredeteriorating.Andwereneverdevelopedtofullmutualtelepathyastheyneededtobe.Itwould

havecertainlyhelpedusmorenowwiththeETproblems.K:Buttheheadsthatwere–bythatwordmeaningyousaidtherewereheads,youknow,theheadsthatrantheorganization,whichwerethenbasicallytakendownonsomelevel.Okay?D:Right.K:Butthosepeoplearestillindividualsandthey’restillgoingtotry,aren’tthey,tocommunicatewithhim?Gooutofbody?D:Ithinkalotoftried,andweknewthemainperson–afellownamedDavidMayowhowasthelastknownconsultantofRonHubbardatthetime,thelastonewhowasworkingontechnologywithRon.TheydevelopedthelastmajortechniquestogetherthatRonworkedon.DavidwasbroughtinbecauseRonwassickasadogandhad

canceronhisface.ThelastpieceoftechdevelopedwasanefforttosaveRon’slife,andDavidwasasmuchapartofdevelopingitasRonorevenmore.ItwascalledNewEraDianeticsforOTs,itstechnicalname.OrNOTSforshort.WefoundoutdirectlyfromDavidMayoabouttheconditionRonHubbardwasin-whichwassoverypooratthattime,withagrowthonhisface.Ronwasalreadyasickprisonerinhisownsituation,withchildvultureswaitingforhimtodiesotheycouldtakeover.Topexecutivesweremadeprisonerstoo,likeahardlaborcamp,andthey

couldn’tgetout.Againthebestofthebestmadeintoslaves.SortofliketheChineseCulturalRevolution,whereyoumurderthegreatestinyourcounty.Takedowntheartists,theinventors,andthemosteducated.PeopleintheChurchweresubduedandhorrifiedandcouldn’tbelieveitwasallhappening.Totallybetrayed.Foryearsthegovernmentdisinfocampaigncontinueduntilnow.Hubbardisthoroughlymalignedinpublicandmadetolooklikeacharlatanandalyingthiefandcriminalwhowasouttomakemoneyinagiantscam.AndofcoursethatISwhattheChurchhadbecome.Prettyironic.



Sotherewerepeoplethattriedtocontacthim,buthisabilitieswereimpairedandsowerethoseofothers,totalintimidationandfearofbeingkickedout.K:Okay,sojusttotiethisup:youwrotetheletter,yousentitout,andyougotthereaction.Theorganizationhadalreadystartedcrumbling,andthencouldyoutalkaboutwhatyouthinkthereactiontotheletter,howthatsortofexacerbatedanycrumblingoftheorganization.D:Wellittotallydid,andfromthenonoutthatletterwasusedbyeachsectorthatleft.ItwasverymuchlikeMartinLutherandtheCatholicChurch.Itwaslikethat.Itwasahugeorganization,anditwasworldwide.Itwaseveninthecommunistcountries,anditwashardforScientologytogetintothecommunistcountries,justlikeitisforChristians.Itwasnotanappropriatephilosophyforcommunists.Butitwaslikeaworldwideschismwithpeopleleavingindroves.K:Sopeoplekindofusedthatasamanifesto,inasense?D:Yeah.Exactly.Theyuseditastheirmanifesto,andtheylefttheorganizationwiththeconceptthattheyweregoingtocarryonthe

techniques,thepartoftruththattheyhadofit.Andtheytried,butitmostlydidnotcarryon.PeoplewereaffectedbyalltheevilnessattributedtoHubbardinagiantcampaignfinancedbyblackops.TheyactuallypaidsomeScientologiststowritedisinfo,andpaidotherstoshutup.Butmyhighestwishwasnotthateveryoneleave,butthattheywouldenmassedemandjusticeandinnumbersbreakdownthewallsthatprotectedthosewhowereabusingpowerandletusGETtoRondirectly.Thatstepwasmissed.Sotheletterwasusednottocreatearevolutionofredressoutofjustifiedrage,butanexodus.Peoplewerealreadytoobeaten,toohopeless,sortofliketheUSAistoday.TheydidNOTgetthepoint

oftheletterandlookfortheThirdPartyatall.ThepeopleblamedRonHubbardandpersonallyfeltbetrayedbyhim.That’sexactlywhatthegovernmentwanted.Thepowerintheorganizationwaslostwhensomanyleft.ThegovernmenthadtocontinuetomalignanddiscreditthefounderSOTHATthetechniqueswerenotcarriedonintheirpurestforms.EveryonewasmanipulatedtofeelcompletelybetrayedbyHubbardforthegovernmentoperationtobesuccessful.Wewerechicken,andwerehelplesstoorganize,confront,andteardowncityhall.IandotherslookedwithintheorganizationfortheThirdParty.WeneverhunteddownandfoundtheThirdParty.ThethirdpartywastheblackopsgovernmentoftheUSA.Theytookit

downandnowtheyownit.It’srunbyegoandpowernow.Inpublic,Ronwasmoreandmoremadetolookasifallhewasdoingwasstealingmoney,andthathewasatotalquack.Hisdiscoveriesweremalignedandwithinafewyears,eventhepeoplewhowereproponentsfeltsopersonallybetrayedbyRonandblamedhimsobadlythattheynolongerpracticedthetechniqueswithasmuchcare.SlanderousbookswerewrittenaboutHubbard.Thegovernmentboughtoffthewhistleblowerswithintheorganizationwhoweretryingto



openlyexposenefariousactivities.Individuallonerscameoutandtriedtogettothebottomofthecorruptionandexposeit,buttheyneverfoundtheThirdParty.TheChurchpaidthembigsumstoshutupandneverspeakinpublic.AfewpeopleIknowactuallywentberserk,someofthehighestmostexperiencedpeoplejustlosttheirmindsoveritallandboughtthebagaboutRon,feltutterlydisillusionedaboutthehumanraceeven.Wewereinittosavethefateoftheplanet,theveryfateRonpredictedthatwe’refacingrightnow,andsothepeoplefeltthatRonhadbetrayedtheplanetandallmankindandthatitwasallashamthatweweretakenandapartofit.Thegovernmentdidamassivecampaignagainsthimanditallworked.Thefulloriginaltechniquesarenolongerreallyemployed,exceptincomparativelysmallso-calledsplintergroups,notthewayitwasinthe50swhenitwasagiantwave,agiantmovement.It’snotanorganizationthatcandealwithwhathappeningontheplanet...youendupwithallthesehyperdimensionalentities–andETs,theorganizationcan’tdoit.Wedidn’tevolvelargenumbersofhighlycapablepeoplewhohaverealpowertogoupagainstthethingswe’refacingnow.Ofcourse,thereareafew,verycapablepeopleindeed,mostlyoperatingveryquietlyandeffectivelyandwithoutanyfuss,and

theyaregettingthingsdone.Butinnumbers,weevennowcouldreallystillcount,evenwithoutsuperabilitiesindividually.Westillcouldwinwithcertainbasictruthsandskill-sets.Therearesomeorganizationsthatareexcellent.Butnotenoughofthemyet.B:I’veneveractuallyseenanyonelevitate,butI’dsaythat’samagictrick,andmaybeitdoesn’treallymatter.D:It’snota“magictrick”-anditdoesmatter!Thesekindsofthingsmatter,tobeabletodothosethings,toreadminds.TheETshaveabilitieslikethatasamatterofcourse,andwecanalso.B:Wellactually,themostpowerfulpeopleIknowcanbeinvisibleaboutallofthisandthey’rechangingconditionsbecausethey’re

operatingatanonphysicallevel.But,youknow...D:Iknow.B:Okay.Therearetechniquesthatarecertainlyaformofabuse,butIthinkthisisn’tafailedexperiment,andIwanttoletyouknowthispersonally.D:I’mveryawareofwhatyou’retalkingabout.Imean,myfriendhere,heknowsCaptainBillRobertson,he’strainedinBill’stechniques,andheknowsthepeoplewhodeliverit.SoI’mfamiliar.

ButwhenIsayit’sfailedImeanthattherewasaninspiredworldwidemovement,andthatwasdestroyed.Therealthingthatwaslostistheprogressiveabilitytofacelargerandlargerforcesandmanifestationsofenergies,andhowto

actuallygetaspiritualenergy-entityto–independentoftheirbodyandeverythingelse–tomanifestalargerandlargerpower,somuchsothattheyarethemselvesaretheequivalentandequalofthesehyper-dimensionalentities,butpositiveones.Wecoulddomoregoodwithlargenumbersofus.Theability...thetechniquesofmanifestinginsuchmassivewaysarenotutilizedandsoughtafterandthetechniquesthatmysmallgroupdiscoveredarenotutilizedandarenotoutthere.Justlikeallthetechniquesofyourorganizationarenotutilizedinlargeenoughvenues,morepeople,inotherwords,asenseofan



Earth-Missionlikeweoncehad.WhentheDaneTopslettercameout,IhadcorrespondencewithpeoplewhereIhintedatsomeofthethingsmysmallgroupwasdoingandwewereofferedfullsupport.WewereofferedacastleinScotlandbyaguynamedRobinScott;helaterfeltbetrayed,likesomanyothers.Butatthattime,afterthelettergottoEurope,heofferedfullsupporttomysmallgrouptocarryonwiththeworkthatweweredoingbecauseIsaidafewthingsinsomeoftheseprivatelettersthatinterestedandexcitedhim.Well,today,allthosepeoplewouldbehighlybiasedoveranyclaims.ThesenseofbetrayalaftersomuchtrustofRonruinedpeople.BillRobertsonwasnotbetrayedopenly.Butonsomelevelhehadtohavebeenveryupset.HeandRonwereclosefriends.Whoknows,ifhistechniqueswereprovingeffective,thegovernmentwouldwanttotakeBillRobertsondowntoo.SoI’mjustsayingit’snotthattherearen’tgreattechniquesstillinuseandthere’ssomesplintergroups,likeCaptainBill–whofoundedoneofthebestsplintergroups,Ibelieve.IfI’dknownhim,Ibelievehewouldhaveincorporatedwhatourlittlegroupwasdoing,orwewouldhaveincorporatedhim.

Buttherealwealthofthesubjectisnolongerflowingout,explodingintotheworld.Thedeathtollthat’sabouttobeextractedfromourplanetisimminentandweasaplanetareappallinglyignorant.ItwouldnothavebeensoifthemissionthatRonHubbardwasdoingsucceeded.Wewereabraveandemotionallypowerfulbunch.Wewereapassionatepurposeonfire.B:Ithasn’thappenedyet.Iknowpeoplewhoareworkingonthisrightaswe’retalking.Imean,thegame’snotover.D:No,it’snot.B:Ithappensateverylevel.D:That’strue.

B:Andthereareallkindsofpeoplewhoareworkingonthisstuff,usingeverykindoftechniqueyoucanname.Idon’tcareifsomeonestandsontheirheadinthecornerandmeditatesandissurethey’rehelping.Maybetheyare.Idon’tknow.That’scoolwithme.K:Wedon’tthinkweneedtogounderthoseheadings.Ithinktheirworkisstillbeingdone.D:It’snotonlystillbeingdone,buttherearemany,manytechniquesthathavecomeupandarebeingemployed.WhatisstillbeingemployedinthesubjectofScientologyisapieceofthewholeofmankinddiscoveringwhoandwhatitis.K:It’snotacohesiveorganization,iswhatyou’resaying.Thecohesivenessoftheorganizationdoesn’texist.Thetechniques

exist,andthey’rebeingpracticedinalldifferentwaysandformsandfashions.D:TherearesomanyismsandthingsthatcameoutofScientology.Regression.Rebirthingcameoutofit,PrimalScream,WernerErhard’sestcameoutofit,Landmarkcameoutofit,NXIVMcameoutofitandNXIVMisjustfabulous,improvingonsomethingsinScientologyinseveralimportantways.I’vedonethemallandseenwhatpeopledidwithHubbard’sstuff.Itgoesonandon,allthestuffthatcameoutoftheoriginaldiscoveriesthatRonHubbardstarted.It’slegion.Hisworkis



–Ibelievehewastheirworstfightoftheday,asfarasahumanthreat.Theywantedhisknowledgeandtheywantedtotakehimout.Theywoninthe80s,aftera25yearfight.Peopledonotknowwhattheyare,andjusttellingthemdoesn’twork.HowtomanifestyourselfinknowingtheimmortalbeingyouarewithyourmemoryintactiswhatHubbardtriedtoimpart.Itwasarealattempt.B:Iunderstand.Iremembersomethingthat...Youmayknowthequoteandreferencebetterthanme,butIrememberthatHubbardtalkedaboutwhatIbelievehereferredtoastheShadesofNight.AndtheShadesofNightwerefalling,andthataswebecamemoretechnologicallycapable,thattechnologycouldbeusedtofreemanortoenslavehim.Andtherewasanopportunity,awindowofopportunity,astheShadesofNightwerefalling,tousethistechnologytofreemanbeforetheforcesofdarknessgottherefirst.D:Right.B:Now,thisisentirelyismyparaphrase.Canyousaysomethingtothat?D:Heknewthetechnicalandphilosophicalelementsbeingintroduced

onEarthfromhisownmemory,andtheverifiedsimilarmemoriesofothers.Helabeledthesetechnologieswithhisownlabels.Heknewabouttheforcestousetechnologyforevil,andheknewthattheyweregainingmoreandmorepower,andhewastryingtowakepeopleupintime.Hetalkedaboutitinthesetypesofmetaphoricalterms.K:Andtheseareallthesamekindsofthingsthatwe’retalkingaboutinCamelot.D:Absolutely.It’swhatCamelotistalkingabout,onlyhewasinthe1950sand60s.K:Right.AndthisispartofthereasonwhyyouweresoattractedtoCamelot,andalongtimeagoyougotveryinvolvedwithus.Butinessence,hewastalkingabouttheETsbehindThePowers-That-Be.

D:Right.Ourrealhistory.Hewastalkingaboutthetechniquesofmindcontrol,andhowitwasdone.Andhewastalkingaboutthebasicsofhowthemindworks,thatthemindcanbehealed,andthatyouareabletogainyourhealedmindback:howtodoit,andtheprogramsforrecoverywerethecoursesandproceduresinScientology.Thesuper-soldierscouldmakesomeuseofitfortheirownrestoration.B:AndthethingthatI’dliketosayonrecordonthistranscript-andI’dliketoaskforyoutoo-isthat,forinstance,wehavejustcomefromtheLosAngelesAwakeandAwareconferencewhereweheardtestimonyfromDuncanO’FinioanandDavidCorsoonrecordandquiteanumberofpeoplewerepartofthatprogram,theMKULTRAprogram,offrecord,whohavebeenextensively–inthepsychology

terminology–implanted,notphysicallybutpsychically.D:It’sphysicallytoo.ThatstuffunderDuncan’sfingernailswithelectricity...TheBourneIdentityscenario.That’sclassicimplantstuff.B:Right.Butit’sthepsychicimplantsthatyoucan’textractwithapairofpliers.That’sthestuffthatyouneedextra,veryrefinedtechniques,togettothebottomof.D:Right.Butyouhavetoundotheelectricalchargetodoit.Theimplantissimultaneous.Painplusunconsciousnesspluscommand.That’stheformula.It’sallinthebasicbookfrom1950.



B:Iunderstandthat.WeheardDuncanO’Finioantalkingonstage...Weheardhimsayinresponsetoaquestion,thatwhenatherapisttriedtoworkwithhim,oneofhisalternatepersonalitiesthathiscolleagueshadnicknamedTheBerserkeractuallybecametriggeredandhetriedtokillthetherapist.Andthatwastheendofthat.Youtoldmeoffrecord,andI’dlikeforyoutosaythisagain,thatScientologytechniques,properlyapplied,couldactuallyhandlethatentiresituationwithoutanydangerorriskandwithaguaranteeofagoodoutcome.AndIwonderifyoucouldstatethis,becausealotofthosepeoplewillhearthis.It’savery,veryimportantstatementtomake.D:Thetechniques,Ibelieve,camefromtheresearchthatHubbarddid.Butthenyouhavetofindanexpertpractitionerordevelopitforeachotherintandem.Theadvancedtechniquesarethemostbasictechniques-certainlynotintheChurchanymore,soonehastoknowwheretogotogetthatkindofassistance,andyes,howtodoitisintheoriginalresearchthatcameoutofL.RonHubbard.Therearetechniquesthatareknownthatcanfullyreversethesituationofasuper-soldier,anditdoesrequirecommitment,and

timetodoit,anditcanbedone,andtheyhaven’tbeenknownbeforeRonHubbard.AndIbelievethetechniquesdonetomakeasuper-soldier,theycanbereversed.YouknowofCathyO’Brien?ThefirstpersontohelpherwhensheescapedwasaScientologistwhotookherin,afriendofmine.Cathyhadhermemoryrestoredbyanumberoftechniques,andnotonlybyhim.That’sremarkable.Therearenoothersofherilkwithrestoredmemorylikeshehas.Shewasimplantedseverely.Fromchildhood-babyhood,actually.Thesuper-soldiersshouldgettogetherwiththeWhiteHousemodelsandexaminetheirmindcontrolprograms.Wouldbeagreatjointproject!InviteCathyO’Brientothesuper-soldierconvention.

K:Wemightseewhetheryou’reindangerfromreleasingthisinterview.D:Itwastheorganizationthatusedtheirmoneyandresourcestofindme.Theonlydangerisstillthetruthaboutwhoandwhatwehumansare,thefactthatourhistorycanbeknown,andthatwecanbecomecognizantofwhatourhistoryreallyisinthisuniverseandwhat’shappeningonthisplanet,andthefactthatit’saprisonplanet,butweareinfinitelypowerfulandIFthesecretswererevealedwecouldbeatit.ThesearethesecretsthatI’mverifying,that’salreadycomeoutinCamelot.Itsimportanttounderstandhowbrainwashingisreallyworkingandbeingutilized.K:Thereareotherpeoplethatwecantalktotogetmore

informationaboutthat.Therearesomepeoplewewanttotalktoaboutthat.D:Great.K:Butthankyou.Ithinkthat’sverygood.B:Wasthereanythingelsethatyouwantedtoaddintherethatyouhaven’tsaid,evensomethingthatcanbeinserted?Wasthereanythingthatyoucamewithonyournotesthatyoudidn’tgetachancetosay?D:Ithinkthatifanybodybecomesinterestedinthesubjectnowbecauseofthis,shoulddowhatevertheycantofindoriginalworks



ofRonHubbard,notthealteredversionsthatarenowsoldandusedandtofindpeoplethatknowthosetechniquesfromthe’50s.That’swherethemostvaluablestuffis.Don’tbuyrewritesoftheiroriginalbooks,whichtheyhavedone.B:Okay.Forthebenefitofthetechnicalpeople,whatspecifictechniqueswouldbeonyourlist?D:Okay,it’sasequence.ReadDianetics,theModernScienceofMentalHealth.Thatwasthefirstbook.ScientologistscallitBookOne.Twopeoplecanteamupandapplythetechniquesinthereoneachother.Youalsowanttogothroughthislifetime’sphysicaltraumainsuchawaythattheridgesofstuckenergyinthebodyrelease.AndthemainthingthathasbeentakenawayfromtheChurchislettingthatkindofenergyreallymanifest.EverythingintheChurchbecomemental,but“intellectual”doesn’tcutthemustardofdeepenergyrelease.“Understanding”doesn’tmovemountainsofnegativeenergies.Leveragedoes,andphysicalreversal,andthatmeansappliedskills.Thesuper-soldierscouldreadandutilizethatbook,ifthey’retherapy-minded.B:Iwasonlyaskingthatquestionbecauseyouweretalkingabout1950sprocesses,andIjustwonderedifyouhadsomespecificprocessesinmind.

D:Thebookisthestart.Youcangoalongwaywithit.B:Okay.D:Butthebasicsofwhat’sultimatelypossible,I’dsayoneofthebestthingstolistentoareThePhiladelphiaDoctorateCoursetapes.B:Right.D:Haveyoueverheardthem?B:I’velistenedtothemallthewaythrough.D:It’sallRonHubbard’sstuff.B:Yeah.Wheremyquestionisreallygoinghere,Imeanthisisn’tnecessarilygoingtobeinthetranscript,but,forinstance,foranyofRon’sOrg[thesplintergroupthatBillRobertsonfounded]trainedauditorsandassociateslisteningtothis,whatisitthat

you’repointingoutthatyoudon’tthinkthey’redoingthattheyshouldbedoingfortrainingorpracticeordrillthatthey’renotdoing?Ormaybeyoudon’thaveanansweroffhand,butitmightbeinterestingifyoucouldspecifythat.D:TherearethingsaboutentitiesthatIhaven’tseenfullyaddressed.Ibelievethere’sablueprintforhumanbeingsthatwasinstalledinusthatwhateverlifeformyou’rein,whetheryou’reahumanbeingoradifferentkindoflifeform,ithasacertainstructureAndthatstructureisinstalled,andthatstructuremeansthatifyougohavealifeasoneofthesekindoflifeformsthentherearesecretsofthatlifeform,thereisaspiritualstructureofeach

lifeform,notONLYthephysicalDNAstructure,andyoucangomuchfurtherasaspiritualbeingwhenyoubecomeintimatewiththesespiritualinstalledstructuresofeachlifeform.ThisisthekeytounderstandingETs.WeareETstosomeoneelsetoo,youknow,butyou’restillattachedtothatlifeformyou’reusingatthetime,becauseyoudon’treallyunderstandthestructure–youcan’treallygetfreefromit.AndthisisapartoftheresearchIhaven’tseendoneanywhere,becauseyougettothepointofunderstandingyourselfasainfinite



18monthsdoingtheGamesMasterCourseandthen...bang.D:Andhere’sthegame!Yougotthegame![laughs]B:Ofcourse,absolutely.ThiswholethingfrommyperspectiveisakindofGamesMasterProject.D:Isn’tthatincredible?B:Imean,I’vesaidtopeopleveryquietlyfromtimetotimethatifyouwanttoknowwhattheGamesMasterCoursedoesorcando,lookatthis.D:It’sCamelot!Wow.B:SothisisaproductoftheBridge.Imean,thatneedstobeunderstoodverycarefully,verysubtly,becauseI’mnotkindofsaying...Youknow,thisisn’tame-me,ego-egothing.Thishasnothingtodowiththat.Everyone’sgottheirownprocess,andKerry’scometothatindependently,butyou’vegottaseethewholethingasawhole.It’sgottodowiththenatureofresponsibility.I’mresponsibleforeverything,butsoareyou.D:Right.B:Soiseverybody,andsothewholethingoverlapsanditbuildsholographically.D:Yeah.B:ButIknowthatIwouldn’tbedoingwhatI’mdoingwithoutthejourneyovertheBridgeandsoformethere’snothingineffectiveaboutwhathappenedaftertheChurchsplitapart.Iwasneverinthe

ChurchandIonlyfoundthesubjectin1984withoneofthesplintergroupsinLondon.Therearemiracleshappeningallovertheplace,andthisisamanifestationofoneofthem.D:IthinkImisspokeonthisconcept.I’mcomparingittowhatHubbardwantedtodo,nottothefacttherearen’tmiraclesthatcameoutofwhatHubbarddid.Thereweremany,manypeoplethatwentontomanifestextraordinarythings,likeBillRobertson,butcomparedtoclearingtheplanet,thatdreamwasbusted.B:Yes.Ithinkmyunderstanding-whichisaconversationweshould

takeoffline-isthatthere’ssomethingdifferenthappeningnow.Therearealotofthingsthatarehappeningoff-planet.Youknow,youhaven’ttalkedabouttheGalacticPatrol.D:Right.B:Youhaven’ttalkedabouthowcomeallthesepeoplearesuddenlyhereinthislifetime,allworkingtogetherdoingthisthing,youknow?D:Absolutely.B:Whatisittobemissionaires,andwhatdoesthatmean?AndwhyisitthatwhentheSeaOrgmemberswereaskedtosignabillion-yearcontract,theysaidOkay,noproblem.Whatdidthatmean?

D:Right.B:Andwhatisthatsymbolicof?D:Yeah.Likewe’vealreadysignedone.Thisisjustareaffirmationofwhatwe’realreadydoing.[laughs]B:Exactly.That’sright.Andmanyrecentobservershavecommentedonthefactthatthere’sthisveryhugeinfluxofpeoplewho’vecomeherewithaverystrongsenseofmission,andthesedon’tseemtobeordinaryhumanbeings.Theseseemtobepeoplewithmuchenhancedabilities,butjustbecausethey’rehereonthisplanet,theyneedtohaveeverything



becauseyouarrivehereandyoucan’trememberadamnthing,andyoudon’tknowwhatyoushouldbedoing,andyou’reallconfused.Imean,itwasn’tlikewhatwecallit,andsoallofthathastoberepaired.ButmostofthemissionairesherehaveneveractuallydoneanyworkinScientology.That’sanassistprogram.It’slikeaspecificassistprogramtorehabilitatecertainabilities.Somepeoplejustsay,Well,tohellwithit.I’lljustdomyjobanyway.D:Right,likeKerry.Absolutely.Andsomepeoplearecominginwithsuchawarenessandabilitythat,youknow...Atthetimeinthe’50sthereweren’tpeoplelikethat,youknow.Youwentthroughaprogramtogetthat,youdidn’tcomeinandhaveit.D’sfriend:What’shername,thethirdpersoninyourlittlegroup?D:Iactuallydon’tfeelcoolsayingthethirdperson’snamebecauseshesomuchdoesn’twantthat.Theyattackedher...theyneverattackedme...theyattackedmyfriendheretoo,butwithheritwasthekindwheretheygothroughthetrashandgotothehouseandknockoverandoverformonthsandyearsonthedoor,lotsofthatkindofstuff,andshegotscaredandshelefttownandshestoppeddelivering.B:Whendidthathappen?D:Tenyearsago.

B:Oh,asrecentlyasthat?D:Ohyeah,theChurchkeptgoingafterher.Shewasdeliveringforawhileinasmallway.Shewaswell-knownintheorganizationandso,youknow,theharassmentjustdidn’tstop.Theyjustwantedhertostopdelivering.Youknow,onethingIdidn’ttalkaboutisIknowhowalltheupperlevelmaterialsevengotoutinthepublic.Iknowwhodidit.IknowhowtheClassEighttapesgotoutintobroadpublicdomain.B:You’retalkingabout...what’shisname?D:LarryWest?B:LarryWest,yes.D:Iknowwhogavehimthestuff.B:Butsomeofthatstuffhasbeenaltered,hasn’tit?

D:Ohyeah,everything’sbeenaltered.There’snothingthatdoesn’tgettouched.becauseeverypersonwantstobecreativeandputtheirowntouchonit.ButeventheClassEighttapes,thingslikethis,whenthisallhappened,thiswasdoneafterDaneTops,thatthisstuffcameout.ButIknowwhogotitout,andhowtheygottheClassEighttapesout,andhowitwasmastermindedbecausethatmaterialwasmuchprotected–youcouldn’tgettothat.I’lltellyoutheoperationsometimeifyouwanttohearit.Itwasreally,reallyincredible,butwhenthatmaterialstartedcomingouttheconfidentialveilwasbrokenfortheChurchtokeeptheirmethodssecret.

B:Okay.Thatwaslikethesecondstageofthiswhole...exodus.D:WithinthreeyearsaftertheDaneTopsletter,peoplewereempoweredtogoontheirown,becausetheycouldgetoriginalmaterialtousetohelppeoplethathadallbeenlockedup.Noonewouldhaveeverdreamedofusingitoutsidetheconfidentialconfinesandinnerholysanctums.B:Yes.D:I‘llputitthatway.Manyofthestellarpeoplewentontheirown,andthentheyfailedandbelievedtheyhadrealizeditwasallawash,insteadofthattheyweremanipulatedtoquitanddiscredit



allofit.But,thethingRonHubbardsaidaboutit,thatit’snotgoingtoholdtogetherwithouttheorganization,thatwastrue.Everybodywantstobeanindividual.Andunfortunately,thatsometimesmeanschangingsomethingthatdoesn’tneedchanging,whenitjustneedstobeappliedasintended.B:Okay.Agreed.There’salotofindividualityinthealternativemedia,certainly.It’samazinghowpeoplewithsimilarpurposesoftendon’tworktogetherwell.D:Youbet.B:Let’scallthatawrap.Kerry,doyouhaveanythingelseherebeforeweclose?K:No.Thishasbeenfascinating.Reallyfabulous.B:Absolutely.Thankyousomuch.Wecouldtalkforalongtimemore,butthishasbeenquiteanamazingstory.Alotofpeoplewillbenewtothisandwillbefairlymind-blownbyitall.They’llhavetogothroughitseveraltimes!D:[Laughs]Probably.B:Okay.Thankyouagain.Takegoodcareofyourself.Stillstandingafteralltheseyears.That’sawonderfulexample.

•ClickherefortheoriginalDaneTopsLetter.•Clickhereforabook,TheMontaukBookoftheDead,writtenbyPeterMoon,theauthoroftheMontaukseriesofbooks,whoworkedalongsideL.RonHubbardformanyyears.Highlyrecommendedasawell-writtenandbalancedaccount.•Clickherefora1987BBCradiodocumentary,RuthlessAdventure:thelivesofL.RonHubbard,averybalancedandinterestingaccountcontainingarchivedinterviewsandlittle-knownresearchmaterial.•ClickhereforasectionofWalterBowart'sunpublishedbook,TheInvisibleThirdWorldWar,makingreferencetoL.RonHubbardandhistechniques.BowartwasneveraScientologist,butunderstoodthe

valueofHubbard'sworkandtechniques.•ClickhereforaChannel4(UK)documentaryonScientologyasdeliveredbyRon'sOrg,thelargest'splintergroup',foundedbyBillRobertsonin1984.Amusingandbalanced.•BillRyan'spersonalScientologyconnectionisthroughRon'sOrg(seeimmediatelyabove),fromwhichhehasgainedagreatdealofbenefit.HewasneverintheChurchofScientology,andisonthefamousChurchofScientologyEnemies'list.H__________________________

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