point type ignition flow ch

8/13/2019 Point Type Ignition Flow Ch

1/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 1

Point type Ignition Flow Chart

Auto 2Trouble Shooting


2/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 2


3/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 3

Fixing something that is broken

How can you fix something efficientlyif youdont even know how it is broken?

To troubleshoot something that doesnt workcorrectly you need:

To know how it is suppose to work

The basics of how it works

Critical thinking comparing what isnt working to howit is suppose to work

A logical process to eliminate the possible causes of theproblem

Proper tools


4/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 4

Trouble shooting

If you had never seen an apple, never read

about an apple, and no one had ever told

you anything about an apple, it would very

difficult for you to tell me what is wrong

with these apples.


5/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 5

Trouble shooting

It would even be more difficult for you to

tell me how to fix what is wrong with these

apples


6/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 6

Trouble shooting for no spark

In the same way, if you havent learned how wemake spark in the ignition system, it will bevery difficult for you to figure out why anengine doesnt have spark

If you dont know the basics of electricity, itwill be very difficult for you to diagnose what iswrong

If you dont know how to use test equipment, itwill be very difficult for you to find yourproblem


7/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 7

Logical testing & elimination

Hopefully you learned by now:How the primary ignition system works to

make spark

Basic rules to series and parallel circuits and

can apply the knowledge

How to select the proper electrical measuring

tools and how to use them

So now we need to learn how to use aprocess of elimination to diagnose a vehicle

that doesnt have spark


8/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 8

There is usually more that one

rightway to fix something

The flow chart I have made for point type

ignition is just the way that is logical and

works efficiently for me

By no means is it the only way

Since we dont have a lot of experience yet

with diagnosis, lets use my method for

logically eliminating all the causes of an

ignition system that is not working correctly


9/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 9

Primary Ignition

We had better know bynow:

Key on, points on,primary current flows

and creates a magneticfield around primarywinding of coil

Points open, magnetic

field crashes inducinghigh voltage intosecondary windingcreating spark


10/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 10

Draw primary ignition on back of

flow chart fairly large

+ -

RUN

+-


11/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 11

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coil

wire while cranking?


12/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 12

Using remote starter to crank

B+

S


13/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 13

Make sure you are checking at the proper end of wire


14/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 14

Primary ignition circuit

+ -

RUN

+-


15/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 15




With key on, Is

There power to +

Side of coil?

NO


16/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 16


+ -

RUN

+-


17/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 17


18/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 18

Making sure test light works


19/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 19

Points closed

Points open


20/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 20


+ -

RUN

+-

If we didnt have power to + sideof coil, what would be the causes?


21/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 21




With key on, Is

There power to +

Side of coil?

NO

Ballast resistor,

wiring to +

side of coil or

ign switch is open

NO


22/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 22


+ -

RUN

+-

If you have power to coil positive

Then you know this side of circuit

Is doing its job and we can moveonWhat should we

Check next ?


23/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 23




With key on, Is

There power to +

Side of coil?

NO

Ballast resistor,

wiring to +

side of coil or

ign switch is open

NO

Is there power to the

- side of coil key on?

YES


24/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 24


+ -

RUN

+-


25/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 25

Must have primary wires for coil hooked up


26/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 26




With key on, Is

There power to +

Side of coil?

NO

Ballast resistor,

wiring to +

side of coil or

ign switch is open

NO



YES

Crank engine, does test

light blink on - side

of coil

NO


27/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 27


+ -

RUN

+-

When we crank the engine

What should the points do?


28/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 28

Must have primary wires for coil hooked up

CRANKCRANKCRANK CRANKCRANKCRANK

CRANKCRANK


29/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 29


YES



With key on, Is

There power to +

Side of coil?

NO

Ballast resistor,

wiring to +

side of coil or

ign switch is open

NO





of coil

NO

NO

STAYS OFF

(NO VOLTAGE)


30/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 30


+ -

RUN

+-

So while cranking the engine

The light stays off

How much voltage should be left on the - side of

Coil with the points closed and current flowing?How much voltage should be on the - side of

Coil with the points open?


31/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 31

Write on back of flow chart

With voltage to + side of coil, there areonly four things that will cause no voltage

to - side of coil while cranking (light stays off)

1. Points always closed


32/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 32


+ -

RUN

+-

What else would cause

The light to stay off?


33/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 33


With voltage to + side of coil there are

only four things that will cause no voltage



2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil


34/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 34

Open Primary windingDont forget to isolate one side of the coil


35/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 35


+ -

RUN

+-

What else would cause

The light to stay off?


36/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 36







3. Grounded condenser


37/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 37

Grounded condenser


38/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 38

Checking a good condenser

It will

charge

up and goto infinite

resistance.


39/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 39







3. Grounded condenser

4. Grounded wire between coil - and points


40/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 40

Shorted primary wire to ground

Ch ki C ti l I iti S t


41/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 41


YES

Is there spark

while cranking?

With key on, Is

There power to +

Side of coil?

NO

Ballast resistor,

wiring to +

side of coil or

ign switch is open

NO



NO Crank engine, does test


of coil

NO

Lets continue on


42/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 42



of coil

NO


43/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 43



of coil

NO

Are points always staying closed? LOOK


44/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 44



of coil

NO


Do coil test

NO

Adjust Dwell

YES


45/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 45



of coil

NO


Do coil test

NO

Adjust Dwell

YES

Replace

BADGOOD

Check for a

grounded condenser


46/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 46



of coil

NO


Do coil test

NO

Adjust Dwell

YES

Replace

BADGOOD

Check for a

grounded condenser

BAD

Replace

GOOD

Primary wire between

- side of coil and

points is grounded Repair

Th k f


47/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 47



of coil

NO


Do coil test

NO

Adjust Dwell

YES

Replace

BADGOOD

Check for a

grounded condenser

BAD

Replace

GOOD


- side of coil and


That takes care of

The staying off side

#1

#2

#3

#4


48/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 48



of coil

NO


Do coil test

NO

Adjust Dwell

YES

Replace

BADGOOD

Check for a

grounded condenser

BAD

Replace

GOOD


- side of coil and




49/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 49


Is there spark

while cranking?

With key on, Is

There power to +

Side of coil?

NO

Ballast resistor,

wiring to +

side of coil or

ign switch is open

NOIs there power to the


YES

P i i iti


50/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 50

Primary ignition

circuit

+ -

RUN

+-




51/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 51



YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

- side of coil?


52/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 52


+ -

RUN

+-

When we crank the engine

What should the points do?


53/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 53


+ -

RUN

+-

So while cranking the engine

The light stays on

How much voltage should be left on the - side of

Coil with the points closed and current flowing?How much voltage should be on the - side of

Coil with the points open?


54/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 54


There are only three things that will cause

voltage all the time to - side of coil while

cranking (light stays on)

1. Points always open


55/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 55

Point always open


56/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 56


+ -

RUN

+-

What Else would

Cause the light

To say on ?


57/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 57






2. Open primary wire between - coil and points


58/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 58

Open primary wire


59/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 59


+ -

RUN

+-

What Else would

Cause the light

To say on ?


60/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 60






2. Open primary wire between - coil and points

3. Points not grounded or contacts bad


61/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 61

Points not grounded



62/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 62



YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

- side of coil?

NO

Are pointsalways open?



63/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 63



YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

- side of coil?

NO


NO

Points are either not groundedor primary wire is open between

- side of coil and points

Check & repair

Is there power to theIf the light blinks


64/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 64



YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

- side of coil?

YES

Adjust dwell to Specs

NO


NOYES



Check & repair

If the light blinks

while cranking. .

GREAT

It has to blink

To have spark

Is there power to theIf the light blinks


65/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 65



YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

- side of coil?

YES


NO


NOYES



Check & repair

If the light blinks

and the dwell is

set correctly

Is there spark?YES

GREAT If vehicle

wont start, restart

at top of flow chart

Is there power to theIf still no spark


66/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 66



YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

- side of coil?

YES


NO


NOYES



Check & repair

If still no spark

Is there spark?YES

GREAT If vehicle

wont start, restart


NO

Test coil & coil wire


67/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 67

Checking Coil Wire


68/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 68

Open Secondary Winding


69/88



70/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 70



YES

Crank engine: does

Test light blink on

- side of coil?

YES


NO


NOYES



Check & repair

Is there spark?

YES

GREAT If vehicle

wont start, restart


NO

Test coil & coil wire

BAD

Replace

GOOD

Condenser is either openor not rounded Re air


71/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 71

Checking a good condenser

It will

charge

up and goto infinite

resistance.


72/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 72

Open condenser

It wont

charge up.

Always atinfinite

resistance.


73/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 73

Condenser not hooked to ground


74/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 74

Weak Spark

Point type ignition should produce at least 20,000

volts (20 KV) which should jump up to at least

and be blue in color

Lets write this up at the to right of flow chart Weak spark can be caused by:

Dwell out of specs

Bad coil (shorted windings, secondary open)

Bad condenser

Pitted points that arc

NEW PITTED


75/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 75

We should be able to succeed

Next time we are in the shop, you will have50 minutes to diagnosis and repair a vehiclethat the customer complains of a NO START

It will have at least one problem in theprimary ignition system that causes nospark

You will also be responsible to make surethe dwell is set correctly before you give itback to the customer


76/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 76

Questions?



77/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 77



YES


78/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 78

Spark at coil wire



79/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 79



Fuel system must

be in order

Is there spark at

one or two plug wires?

YES

S k l i


80/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 80

Spark at plug wire



81/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 81



Fuel system must

be in order

Is there spark at


NO

Repair bad

cap or rotor

YES

Bad cap and bad rotor


82/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 82

p



83/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 83



Fuel system must

be in order

Is there spark at


NO

Repair bad

cap or rotor

YES

Make sure firing

order is correct

Is distributorin time?

YES

Firing order and distributor in time


84/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 84

Firing order and distributor in time

Firing OrderHave to know which way distributor rotates

Have to know firing order

Have to know where #1 plug it

Distributor in time

Remove #1 plug and start upon compression

stroke

Turn by hand (less than turn) to TDC

See if rotor is point to #1 on cap

Fi i d


85/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 85

Firing order



86/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 86



Fuel system must

be in order

Is there spark at


NO

Repair bad

cap or rotor

YES

Make sure firing

order is correct

Is distributorin time?

YES NO

Correct

Ifstill have spark but wont start, check for

mechanical problems (compression)

YES

C t l ti


87/88

11/2001 VHS Auto 87

Congratulations

Once we learn fuel systems, you should be

able to efficientlydiagnosis why a car with

point type ignition wont start

i


88/88

Questions?

point type ignition flow ch

Documents