gpo nara wspf nixon grand jury records 22

8/3/2019 Gpo Nara Wspf Nixon Grand Jury Records 22

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UNI'l'ED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

v .J a n u a r y 1964

JOHN DOE Grand J u r y I n v e s t i g a t i o n

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San Clemente , C a l i f o r n i a

Tuesday, June 2 4 , 1975

The d e p o s i t i o n o f RICHARD M. NIXON wa s reconvened

a t 9:00 o ' c l o c k a . m . , P a c i f i c S ta n da r d Time, June 24 , 1975 ,

i n t h e C o n f e r e n c e Room, U n i t e d S t a t e s C o a s t Guard S t a t i o n ,

San Clemente , C a l i f o r n i a , t h e w i t n e s s having been p r e v i o u s l y

sworn by Th e Ho n o r a b l e Ed ward J . S c h w a r t z , C h i e f Ju dge , Un i t ed

S t a t e s D i s t r i c t C o u r t f o r th e S o u t h e r n D i s t r i c t o f C a l i f o r n i a .

ApPEARANCES:

On b e h a l f o f t he Government:

HENRY S . RUTH, E s q . ,S p e c i a l P r o s e c u t o r

RICHARD J . DAVIS, E s q . ,A s s i s t a n t S p e c i a l P r o s e c u t o r

JAY HOROTITZ, E s q . ,A s s i s t a n t Spe c i a l P r o s e c u t o r

FRANCIS J . MARTIN , E s q . ,A s s i s t a n t S p e c i a l

P r o s ec u t o r

HENRY L. HECHT, E s q . ,A ~ s i s t a n tS p e c i a l P r o s e c u t o r

(P a ge 222)

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On b e h a l f o f th e Witness : ·

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P R O C E E D I N G S- - - - - - - - - - -2

3MR. RUTH: Le t me go on t h e r e c o r d .

4T h i s i s a r e m i n d e r t h a t t h i s i s a c o n t i n u a t i o n o f

5y e s t e rda y ' s sworn d e p o s i t i o n , t h a t t h e r e f o r e t h e o a t h co n -

6t i n u e s t o d a y a n d , i n a d d i t i o n , y ou may c o n t i n u e , o f cou r se ,

7a s you d i d y e s t e r d a y , t o c o n s u l t w i t h y o u r a t t o r n e y s who a r e

8h e r e , Mr. M i l l e r and Mr . Mortenson , c o n s u l t w i t h them a t an y

9

t i m e y ou w ish .

10Th e a t t o r n e y s h e r e t o d a y, i n a d d i t i o n t o Mr. Davis

and m y s e l f , a r e Mr. H e c h t , a t t h e f a r e nd o f t h e t a b l e , and11

Mr . Horowi tz nwxt t o hi m .12

Whereupon,13

RICHARD M. NIXON,14

h a v i n g b e e n p r e v i o u s l y d u l y sworn , was examin e d an d t e s t i f i e d15

f u r t h e r a s f o l l o w s :]( i

E X A M I N A T I O N17

BY MR . HOROWITZ:18

~ S i r , my name i s J a y Horowi tz and Mr . H e c h t i sHI

nex t t o me, t o my r i g h t .20

We i n t e n d t o a sk you some q u e s t i o n s r e l e v a n t t o21

t h e Grand J u r y ' s i n v e s t i g a t i o n , which i s , s p e c i f i c a l l y , i n t o

22

a l l e g a t i o n s t h a t Whi te House a f f i l i a t e d pe r s o ns a t t e mp ted

t o i n f l u e n c e t h e IR S t o a u d i t o r o t h e r w i s e h a r a s s Mr.

24Lawrence F . O ' B r i e n , S r . , and q u e s t i o n s which a r e a l s o

25 Ir e l e v a n t t o t h e Grand J u r y ' s i n v e s t i g a t i o n t h a t t n e White

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House a f f i l i a t e d pe r s o ns a t t e m p t e d t o s e c u r e f rom t h e I n t e r n a

2

Revenue S e r v i c e documents - -3

~ Could I i n t e r r u p t , p l e a s e ?

4I n o t h e r w o r d s , t h e S p e c i a l P r o s e c u t o r ' s O f f i c e

5i s o n l y i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e IR S h a r a s s m e n t a c t i v i t i e s i n s o f a r

6as i t d e a l s w i t h Mr. O ' B r i e n ? I t i s n o t i n t e r e s t e d i n an y

7h a r a s s m ~ n tt h a t t h e IR S may have done o r i s d o i n g o r h a s

8done wi th r e g a r d t o , s a y, me, my f r i e n d s , o r any th ing l i k e

9t h a t ? Am I c l e a r t h a t y o u r s o l e i n t e r e s t i s IR S a c t i v i t y

10w i t h r e g a r d t o O ' B r i e n ?

11~ N ot e x a c t l y . I n t h i s p a r t i c u l a r i n v e s t i g a t i o n ,

12 t h i s p a r t i 9 u l a r Grand J u r y i n v e s t i g a t i o n - -

13 ~ Do you h a v e o t h e r Grand J u r y i n v e s t i g a t i o n s i n

14 which you a r e app ly i n g a s i n g l e s t a n d a r d , i n which you a r e

15 l o o k i n g , s e e i n g w h e t h e r t h e IR S h a s h a r a s s e d o t h e r p e o p l e ?

] (j O We l l , Mr. Nixon , t h i s p a r t i c u l a r i n v e s t i g a t i o n i s

17 d i r e c t e d t o t h e s e a l l e g a t i o n s .

18 ~ I t h i n k you h a v e answered my q u e s t i o n .

19 Go a h e a d .

20 MR. RUTH: Could I j u s t i n t e r r u p t , s i r ?

2 1 THE WITNESS: S u r e , a n y t i m e .

22 MR. RUTH: As you know, s i r , we a r e l i m i t e d by a

23 c h a r t e r t h a t we o p e r a t e u n d e r t h a t l i m i t s o u r j u r i s d i c t i o n

24 t o c e r t a i n f a c t u a l s i t u a t i o n s h a v i n g t o do w i t h White House

25 s t a f f members , p r e s i d e n t i a l a p p o i n t e e s and t h e 1972

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1p r e s i d e n t i a l campaign and o t h e r m a t t e r s . We ca n on ly i n v e s t i

2

g a t e t h a t which i s w i t h i n o u r c h a r t e r .3

THE WITNESS: Your c h a r t e r , however, Mr. Ruth , a s4

I unde r s t an d i t , i s n o t l i m i t e d s i m p l y t o one p o l i t i c a l

5p a r t y . I t c o ve r s b o t h , does i t no t ?

6MR. RUTH: T h a t i s c o r r e c t .

7THE WITNESS: In o t h e r w o r d s , ha r a s smen t , i f i t

8happened i n t h e o t h e r p o l i t i c a l p a r t y , would a l s o be p a r t o f

9 y o u r c h a r t e r , . would i t not?

10MR. RUTH: Only i f i t were by p r e s i d e n t i a l

11a p p o i n t e e s f rom J a n u a r y 20 , 1 9 6 9 . Th e Depar tment o f J u s t i c e

12 .-

ha s t o do the: r e s t . t'le a r e q u i t e l i m i t e d i n w h a t we a r e a b l e

13 t o do .

14 THE WITNESS: Yes . I j u s t wanted t o know, and

15 you have q u i t e enough on y o u r p l a t e w i t h o u t h a v i n g more t o d o .

J( jS o r r y, Mr . Horowi tz . Go a h e a d . I know you have a

17 l o t o f q u e s t i o n s .

18 BY MR. HOROWITZ:

19 0. I t h i n k I i n d i c a t e d , s i r , t h a t one t h r u s t o f t h i s

20 Grand J u r y i n v e s t i g a t i o n r e l a t e s t o e f f o r t s t o g e t t h e IR S

21 t o a u d i t o r o t h e r w i s e h a r a s s Mr. O ' B r i e n .

22 Th e o t h e r l e g o f i t , i f you w i l l , r e l a t e s t o

23 a t t e m p t s t o s e c u r e documents f rom t h e I n t e r n a l Revenue

24 S e r v i c e , a t t e m p t s a l l e g e d l y made by Whi te House a f f i l i a t e d

25 p e r s o n s f o r t h e purpose o f d i s s e m i n a t i n g s u c h documents o r

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d i s t r i b u t i n g them t o un a u t h o r i zed p e r s o n s , t h a t i s , p e r s o n s

wh o would n o t i n t h e o r d i n a r y o r l e g a l c o u r s e have a c c e s s t o\

such i n t e r n a l r e v e n u e S e r v i c e i n f o r m a t i o n .

Now, t h o s e a r e t h e tw o l e g s o f t h i s p a r t i c u l a r

and ve ry s p e c i f i c a l l y , as you p o i n t e d o u t , s p e c i f i c a l l y

l i m i t e d i n v e s t i g a t i o n .

I w i l l f o c u s most o f my q u e s t i o n s upon v a r i o u s

documents which we h a v e , t o a c e r t a i n e x t e n t , b e e n p r o v i d e d

by y o u r cou n se l i n t h e p a s t , and we have p r o v i d e d them p r i o r

t o o u r m e e t i n g h e r e t o d a y, and m o s t o f t h e q u e s t i o n s w i l l b e

by m y s e l f , a l t h o ugh n e a r t h e end p r o bab ly Mr. H e c h t w i l l p u t

some q u ~ s t i o n st o you as w e l l .

Now, one f u r t h e r t h i n g by wa y o f p r e f a t o r y remarks

and b a c k g r o u n d , and h o p e f u l l y we can a s s i s t i n r e f r e s h i n g

y o u r r e c o l l e c t i o n .

Where we a r e f o c u s e d , s i r , i s on t h e summer, and

p r i m a r i l y J u l y , Augus t and September o f 1972 , and d u r i n g t h a t

p e r i o d t h e r e was an e x t e n s i v e I n t e r n a l Revenue S e r v i c e

i n v e s t i g a t i o n o f Howard Hughes , w h e t h e r p e r s o n a l l y o r h i s

a f f i l i a t e d company, b u t t h a t c o n g l o m e r a t e o f i n t e r e s t s , and

i t w as i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h a t i n v e s t i g a t i o n t h a t t h e I n t e r n a l

Revenue S e r v i c e d e v e l o p e d i n f o r m a t i o n which e s t a b l i s h e d t h a t

Mr. O'Br i en an d tw o a s s o c i a t e s o f h i s , one by t h e name o f

J o s e ph N a p o l i t a n , N - a - p - o - l - i - t - a - n , an d one by t h e name o f

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5 174

1A. I t h i n k i t i s n o t Mr. N a p o l i t a n , i t i s N apo l i t an

2

A s s o c i a t e s . I t i s a p u b l i c r e l a t i o n s f i r m .3

Q. ( C o n t i n u i n g ) t h a t t h o s e i n d i v i d u a l s ha d

4r e c e i v e d v a r i o u s funds f rom Mr . Hughes back i n 1969 and 1970 .

5Now we a r e g o i n g t o f o c u s s p e c i f i c a l l y , s t a r t i n g

6on a me e t i n g t h a t you had w i t h M e s s r s . Haldeman an d E h r l i c h -

7man on ~ u g u s t3 o f 1972 . But b e f o r e I do t h a t , s i n c e t h i s

8i n f o r m a t i o n d e v e l o p e d p r i o r t o t h a t t i m e i n t h e c o u r se o f t h e

9i n v e s t i g a t i o n , c o u l d you t e l l u s when you f i r s t became aware

10o f t h e f a c t t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n i n d i c a t i n g t h a t O' Br i en and h i s

11a s s o c i a t e s ha d r e c e i v e d funds f rom Hughes o r Hughes a f f i l i -

12 .a t e d compaoies ha d come t o s u r f a c e t h r o u g h t h e IR S i n v e s t i -

13 g a t i o n ?

14A. Well , we a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t tw o d i f f e r e n t problems

15 h e r e , and I w a n t t o be q u i t e p r e c i s e .

]( i F i r s t , i s t h e prob lem i n which you have j u r i s d i c -

17 t i o n , and t h a t i s t h e a l l e g e d harassmen t o f Mr. O ' B r i e n by

18 t h e IR S ; and , s e c o n d , when I became aware o f t h e f a c t t h a t

l ~t h e Hughes Company h ad Mr . O 'B r i e n on r e t a i n e r . I s t h a t y o u r

ZG qu e s t i o n ?

21 Q We l l , n o , I made i t a l i t t l e u n c l e a r , I t h i n k .

22 What I am i n t e r e s t e d i n i s \'1hen you f i r s t became aware t h a t

23 t h e I n t e r n a l Revenue S e r v i c e had d e v e l o p e d i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t

24 t h e Hughes Comp any ha d O' Br i en on r e t a i n e r .

25 A. My f i r s t r e c o l l e c t i o n o f h a v i n g knowledge t h a t t h e

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16 I n t e r n a l Revenu e S e r v i c e had i n f o r m a t i o n ~ 1 it h r e g a r d t o t h e

2

r e t a i n e r b y Mr. O ' B r i e n was somet ime i n t h e sununer o f 1972 .

3However, I s h o u l d p o i n t o u t t h a t I h ad been

4i n f o r m e d long a g o , and I t h i n k t h i s was p u b l i c knowledge ,

5t h a t O'Br i en w a s , O' Br i en and S e n a t o r H u b e r t Humphrey 's s o n -

6i n - l a w and o t h e r s , were on r e t a i n e r w i t h t h e Hughes o r g a n i z a -

7t i o n . , ~ l e a r ne d t h a t a s e a r l y a s , o h , 1969 o r 1970 . Whether

8t h e IRS knew i t t h e n o r wa s i n t e r e s t e d i n i t t h e n , I do

9 n o t know.

10Q. You s a y i n t h e sununer o f 1 9 7 2 . Ca n y ou t e l l u s

11wh o f i r s t in formed you t h a t t h e I n t e r n a l Revenue S e r v i c e wa s

12i n q u i r i n g i n t o t h a t m a t t e r ?

13k No , I c a n ' t remember who s p e c i f i c a l l y in formed me

14 t h a t t h e I n t e r n a l Re v e n u e S e r v i c e was l o o k i n g i n t o t h a t

151 m a t t e r .

HiQ. When you f i r s t h e a r d t h a t t h e y we r e lo o k i n g i n t o

17t h a t m a t t e r , w h a t d id you u n d e r s t a n d t h e y we r e l o o k i n g i n t o ?

18 ~ What I u nde r s to o d t h e y were l o o k i n g i n t o wa s t h e

19f a c t t h a t Mr . Hughes and t h e v a r i o u s o t h e r p e o p l e t h a t t h e

2G r e c o r d e r h a s a l r e a d y p u t i n t o h e r n o t e s were r e c e i v i n g v e r y,

2 1 ve ry s u b s t a n t i a l r e t a i n e r s f rom Mr. Hughes o r from , I s h o u l d

22 s a y, t h e Hughes o r g a n i z a t i o n , and t h e q u e s t i o n wa s w h e t h e r

23 t h o s e r e t a i n e r s were f o r s e r v i c e s r end e red o r w h e t h e r t h o s e

24 r e t a i n e r s m i g h t b e u s e d f o r t h e purpose o f b e i n g f unne l ed

25 \ i n t o p o l i t i c a l campaigns .

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17 o f c o n v e r s a t i o n s , you s e e .

2Q. A l l r i g h t , I t h i n k i t \vi l l a s s i s t , and p e r h a p s i ,t

3was a b o u t t h e t i m e o f t h e s e f i r s t n o t e s t o r e f e r t hen t o

4n o t e s o f Augus t 3 , 1 9 7 2 , which ,,,e have b e e n p r o v i d e d b y y o u r

5c o u n s e l somet ime a g o , and t h e y r e f e r t o a m e e t i n g be tween

6y o u r s e l f , H r. Haldeman an d X>1r. Ehr l ichman i n t h e morning ,

7and I w i l l mark t h a t 0 -1 , which s e r v e s a s a Grand J u r y

8d e s i g n a t i o n .

9 A. Uh-huh .

10(The document r e f e r r e d t o was

11marked E x h i b i t D -l f o r

12 .i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )

13THE WITNESS: Where d i d i t t a k e p l a c e ?

14MR. HOROWITZ: T h a t I c a n n o t t e l l y o u .

15THE WITNESS: S o r r y.

] IjBY MR. HORm"1ITZ:

17~ NOw, t h e s e n o t e s , l i k e o t h e r s - -

18A. I \vould have t h o ugh t my c o u n s e l would h a v e

1!1f u r n i s h e d you w i t h t a p e s where i t t o o k p l a c e .

29 MR. HOROWITZ: We no w u n d e r s t a n d i t t o o k p l a c e i n

2 1 Washing ton , o. C.

22 THE WITNESS: A l l r i g h t , go a h e a d .

23 I was j u s t c u r i o u s w h e t h e r i t was San Clemente .

24 I t may h e l p t o r e f r e s h my r e c o l l e c t i o n .

25

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18 BY MR. HOROWITZ:

2Q.

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n o t e s , l i k e o t h e r n o t e s we wi 11 g e t i n t o ,3

a r e f r a g m e n t a r y i n p a r t , and what I p r o p o s e t o do w i t h t h e s e

4n o t e s , which I w i l l do w i t h l a t e r n o t e s , i s t o r e ad t h o s e

5n o t a t i o n s on t h e n o t e s t o you which d i r e c t l y a p p e a r t o

6 p e r t a i n t o o u r i n v e s t i g a t i o n .

7A. You, o f c o u r s e , w i l l have a c o p y f o r me s o I c an

8 r e a d a l o n g w i t h you?

9Q. L e t me g i v e you D - l .

10 A. I can s e e , .hy t e a c h e r s h a t e t o g r ade p a p e r s .

11 They a r e s o h a r d t o r e a d , t h e w r i t i n g , l e t a l o ne t o know

12 _ , .h a t t h ey ~ e a n tby i t .

13 Go a h e a d .

14 O. Under ( 1 ) , which i s headed IR S and J u s t i c e , t h e r e

15 i s a n o t e , " I n v e s t i g a t i o n s o f u s , .h en we were o u t , " a n o t e

]( j p e r t a i n i n g t o Ed Nixon-Oceanographic Fund , and i n t h e f o l l o t .-

17 i n g n o t e s , "Use o u r power, c o n t r i b u t o r s , L a r r y O ' B r i e n . "

18 Ca n you t e l l u s w h a t t h a t c o n v e r s a t i o n was a s t o

l! l t h a t p o r t i o n , "Use o u r pO\'lers, c o n t r i b u t o r s , L a r r y O ' B r i e n " ?

29 A. P e r h a p s i t would be b e s t f o r me t o , r a t h e r t h a n

21 t o t a k e t h a t o u t o f c o n t e x t , t o p u t i t i n c o n t e x t , which I

22 know you would w a n t , s o t h a t you have a t o t a l s t o r y .

23 When I r e f e r r e d t o i n v e s t i g a t i o n s o f us when we

24 , "e re o u t , I ,,,as r e f e r r i n g t o t h e f a c t t h a t t h e IR S n o t o r i o u s 1

25

IOOVERREPORTINGCO. INC.320 Massachusetts Avenu e, N[ I

/'Washington, D.C . 20002 II(202) 546·6666

had a w e l l - d e s e r v e d r e p u t a t i o n f o r b e i n g u s e d p o l i t i c a l l y ,



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17 8

and i n some i n s t a n c e s d e v e l o p i n g w i t h i n i t s own bu r e auc racy

a p a r t i s a n p o l i t i c a l v i e w p o i n t .

F o r example , when I ra n f o r Vice P r e s i d e n t i n

1 9 5 2 , t h e IRS, I u n d e r s t a n d , and I am n o t s u r e f rom \>lhom t h ey

g o t th e o r d e r s , b u t from v e ry h i g h s o u r c e s , t o o k my income

t a x r e t u r n s and made them a v a i l a b l e t o a Washing ton c o l u m n i s t

Mr . Drew P e a r s o n , and t o t h e S a i n t Louis P o s t D i s p a t c h .

Those r e t u r n s were u s e d i n t h e campaign a g a i n s t me

They were n o t - - o b v i o u s l y, w h o e v e r g o t t h e r e t u r n s o n l y p u t

o u t t h o s e p o r t i o n s o f t h e r e t u r n s t h a t m i g h t b e d e r o g a t o r y.

The n e x t y e a r I gave t h e w h o l e r e t u r n o u t , a l l o f my r e t u r n s ,

t o Look M a 9 a z i n e , and t h e y were p r i n t e d , and t h a t i s when

Look was s t i l l b e i n g p u b l i s h e d .

I n 1 9 6 2 , t h e IR S a g a i n - - I wa s t h e n , o f c o u r s e ,

o u t o f power - - I was n o t i n Washing ton - - I was r u n n i n g f o r

Governor - - t i l e IR S i n s t i t u t e d an i n t e n s i v e i n v e s t i g a t i o n

which wa s a d ry h o l e f o r them.

As a m a t t e r o f f a c t , a t t h e en d I t h i n k t h e y owed

us some money. B u t an i n t e n s i v e i n v e s t i g a t i o n w i t h r e g a r d

t o t h e pu r cha s e o f my h o u s e , i n Tr u e s d a l e E s t a t e s , t h e y

l e aked t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n t o t h e p r e s s , i n t h i s i n s t a n c e t o t h e

C a l i f o r n i a p r e s s , t o t h e Lo s Angeles Times and t h e Long

Beach p a p e r , and I have a l e t t e r , i r o n i c a l l y , which I

r e c e i v e d f rom t h e man who was t h e head o f t h e f i e l d o f f i c e

o f t h e IRS, w h i c h I would l i k e t o s u b m i t f o r - -



101

THE WITNESS: Ca n I s u b m i t s o m e t h i n g , a docum en t

2

i n ev id e nce?3

MR. RUTH: Yes , s i r .

4THE WITNESS: ( C o n t i n u i n g ) - - which I w i l l s u b m i t

5 a s 0 - 3 .

6 MR. HECHT: 2 - s i r .

7 THE WITNESS: 0 - 2 .

8 (The document r e f e r r e d t o

9 was marked E x h i b i t 0 -2

10 f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )

11 THE WITNESS: T h i s i s t h e l e t t e r o f November 1 3 ,

.12 ' 1973. I t ~ s t o Miss Woods, my s e c r e t a r y . I w i l l l e av e o u t

13 t h e - -

14 MR. RUTH: Excuse me, s i r , does t h i s p e r t a i n t o

15 an y p a r t i c u l a r

]( i THE WITNESS: Th e IRS, i t c e r t a i n l y doe s .

17 HR. RUTH: Does i t have t o do wi th a t a x s i t u a t i o n

18 o f y ou r s?

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THE WITNESS: Yo u l i s t e n and you w i l l s e e .

MR. RUTH: Could I j u s t e x p l a i n a problem we have?

THE WITNESS: S u r e .

MR. RUTH: ~, y e have an o u t s t a n d i n g i n d i c t m e n t

h a v i n g t o do w i t h a t a x s i t u a t i o n wi th ·Mr . De Marco and Mr.

N ~ w m a n ,and we a r e n o t a l l o w e d t o u se t h e Grand Ju r y t o g e t

i n t o L ~ a t ,and I j u s t wanted t o make s u r e



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1'80

THE WITNESS: No , t h i s i s November 1 3, 1 9 7 3 . I t

h a s t o do w i t h t h e IR S h a r a s s m e n t o f an i n d i v i d u a l who had

been Vi c e P r e s i d e n t , who i s r u n n i n g f o r G o v e r n o r o f C a l i f o r n i a ,

a b o u t h i s r e t u r n s , and I am s u r e t ~ e IR S and t h i s group have

no i n t e r e s t i n t h a t s o r t o f t h i n g . I mean o b v i o u s l y i f you

d i d , you would l o s e y o u r j o b s .

I t s a y s , " I am w r i t i n g t h i s l e t t e r t o you" - -

Miss Woods - - " w i t h t h e h o p e t h a t you \·1i11 h a v e t h e

P r e s i d e n t s e e t h e tw o a t t a c h m e n t s . My w i f e i s a

c o u s i n o f Edward H a a k i n s o n , and many memb e r s o f my

f ami l y l i v e i n S e b r i n g . I have b e e n t h e r e many

t imes . _o v e r t h e p a s t f i f t y y e a r s and am s o p r o u d

t h a t s u c h a d i s t i n g u i s h e d l ady as y ou came f rom

t h a t t o w n . "

T h a t i s S e b r i n g , Ohio .

" I r e t i r e d f rom t h e T r e a s u r y Depar tment a s

o f 1 2 -3 1 -65 . My p o s i t i o n wa s ' s u p e r s u p e r v i s o r '

i n c h a rg e o f s e n s i t i v e a u d i t s - - on e b e i n g y ou

know who. I i m m e d i a t e l y t o o k c h a rg e and v e r i f i e d

t h e o r i g i n a l a u d i t a s ' n o c h a n g e ' and t h e c a s e

wa s s e n t back t o Washing ton . Wi t h i n a month i t

ca m e back w i t h a l e t t e r s e v e r1 y c r i t i c i z i n g t h e

N.C. r e p o r t an d r e f e r r i n g t o a r t i c l e s i n t h e

news p a p e r s and magaz ines . I s e n t t h e c a s e back

t o Washing ton w i t h t h i s co mmen t : 'We d o n ' t work



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18 1

ca se s by ,. ,hat t h e news media and magaz ines s a y, we

base o u r f i n d i n g s on f a c t s . ' T h a t s e t t l e d t h e

c a s e . T h r e e t i m e s i t h a d b e e n s e n t t o Los Angeles

f rom Wa s h i n g t o n . "

NOw, w i t h o u t s a y in g wh o s e n t i t , w i t h o u t s ay i ng i t

was done w i t h t h e knowledge o f p e o p l e h i g h i n government , i t

wa s q u i ~ ec l e a r t h a t t h e IR S was e n g a g i n g i n h a r a s s i n g

t a c t i c s d u r i n g t h a t campaign .

Now, t h a t i s w h a t t h a t r e f e r s t o , t h e u s e o f

t h e i r pm'ler i n a p e r s o n a l ""ay, t h e IRS, f o r h a r a s s m e n t

p u r p o s e s .

.}Tow when we t a l k a b o u t u s i n g o u r power h e r e , w h a t

we a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t , as f a r a s I was c o n c e r n e d , h a v i n g gone

t h r o u g h t h i s agony, was n o t , i n my v i e w, t o h a r a s s , b u t a t

l e a s t t o s e e w h a t you g e n t l e m e n , a s you s t a n d b e f o r e t h e b a r

o f h i s t o r y , must have i n y o u r m i n d s , t h a t you w i l l b e j u d g e d

n o t on ly by t h e v e r y e f f e c t i v e jo b you h a v e done and a r e d o i n g

on one s i d e , b u t w h e t h e r o r n o t you have h ad a s i n g l e s t a n d a r d

and a r e j u s t as e f f e c t i v e i n g o i n g a f t e r an y c h a r g e s , t h e 140

t h a t a r e b e f o r e yo u r i g h t now, w i t h r e g a r d t o v i o l a t i o n s by

t h e o t h e r s i d e .

I t s a y s he re " c o n t r i b u t o r s . "

HR. HOROWITZ: I am s o r r y - -

THE WITNESS: L e t me f i n i s h t h e a n s w e r.

I t s a y s " c o n t r i b u t o r s . " T h a t r e f e r s , o f c o u r s e ,



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18 2

t o c o n t r i b u t o r s t o t h e o t h e r s i d e .

"Lar ry O ' B r i e n , " and t h e n h i s n o t e s s a y, "Bet te , r

t h ey d r o p him no w b e c a u s e " - - I d o n ' t know w h a t t h e n o t e

means . I t p o s s i b l y means t h a t I s a i d on L a r r y O ' B r i e n ,

d o n ' t go f o r w a r d w i t h hi m no w b e c a u s e i t would be to o

p o l i t i c a l l y h o t t o do s o .

N e v e r t h e l e s s , l a t e r on t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g t o

i n d i c a t e t h a t t h e r e i s a s u g g e s t i o n t h a t we go f o r w a r d .

Then t h e n e x t n o t a t i o n , "Check McGovern IR S

f i l e s . " Now t h i s , u n d e r s t a n d , i s Mr. E h r l i ch m an ' s n o t e s . I

s h o u l d p o i n t o u t t h a t I can n e ve r r e c a l l s u g g e s t i n g !-1r.

McGovern, S e n a t o r McGovern 's f i l e s b e c h e c k e d . Nhat I do

r e c a l l i s o n l y a s u g g e s t i o n t h a t t h e McGovern c o n t r i b u t o r s

m i g h t b e c h e c k e d .

BY HR. HOROWITZ:

~ S o, i f I u n d e r s t a n d , s i r , when you d i s c u s s e d u s i n g

" o u r p o w e r s , " t h a t was t o u s e t h e powers i n t h e White House

t o g e t t h e I n t e r n a l Revenue S e r v i c e t o a u d i t Mr . O ' B r i e n ,

i s t h a t r i g h t ?

k Yo u a r e p u t t i n g words i n my mouth t h e r e t h a t I

d i d n o t s a y. What I am s ay ing i s , and I am look i n g a t t h e s e

no t e s - - I am r e f r e s h i n g my r e c o l l e c t i o n a b o u t an e v e n t t h a t

o c c u r r e d t,.."o y e a r s ~ t h r e e y e a r s a g o , when I was eng aged i n

a c t i v i t i e s t h a t i n my view were f a r more i m p o r t a n t t h an t h i s

t y p e o f a c t i v i t y , and from t h e n o t e s a nd f rom my r e c o l l e c t i o n



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18 3

and t o t h e b e s t o f my r e c o l l e c t i o n , I can o n ly s a y t h a t I

was s u g g e s t i n g t h a t i n t h e campaign t h a t we s h ou ld b e a s

e f f e c t i v e i n c o n d u c t i n g o u r i n v e s t i g a t i o n s as t h e y ha d been

e f f e c t i v e i n c o n d u c t i n g t h e i r i n v e s t i g a t i o n s .

Q. NOw, s i r , on t h e

A. As you n o t e d , i t s ys " B e t t e r t h e y drop him now,"

w h a t e v e r t h a t means .

~ I was j u s t a b o u t t o ask y o u , s i r , you i n d i c a t e d

t h a t you d o n ' t r e c a l l t h a t . Do you b e l i e v e t h a t t h a t was a

d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t t a l k i n g t o t h e Democra t ic P a r t y o r someone

r e p r e s e n t i n g t h e D e m o c r a t i c P a r t y an d u r g i n g t h a t t h e y d r o p

him, meaning t h a t t h e y drop Mr. O ' B r i e n ?

11. Yo u knQtol, many t i m e s , Mr. H o r o w i t z , p e o p l e t h i n k

t h a t a P r e s i d e n t o f t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s r u n n i n g f o r r e - e l e c t i o n ,

w i t h a good chance t o b e r e - e l e c t e d , h a s a g r e a t d e a l o f

power, b u t even t h e s u g g e s t i o n t h a t I o r one o f my r e p r e s e n t a -

t i v e s c o u l d have i n f l u e n c e w i t h i n t h e Democra t ic P a r t y t o

g e t them t o drop t h e i r N a t i o n a l Chairman i s s o a b s u r d t h a t

r e a l l y I am n o t g o i n g t o d i g n i f y i t w i t h a comment.

Q. S o, c l e a r l y , i t d o e s n ' t mean t h a t , i t d o e s n ' t

have a n y t h i n g t o - -

A. I have answered t h e q u e s t i o n .

9· I f I m i g h t , i f I c o u l d r e f e r y o u r a t t e n t i o n t o t h e

se .cond p a g e o f t h e s e n o t e s , and t h e no t e s r e a d , " S h , " and I

b e l i e v e t h a t t h a t i s a r e f e r e n c e t o t h e n S e c r e t a r y Tr e a s u r y



18 41

15 S h u l t z , and t h e t h r e e e n t r i e s u n d e r n e a t h t h a t i n Mr. E h r l i c h -2

m a n ' s h a n d w r i t i n g a r e , "Hus t be p o l i t i c a l , g i v e him an3

e x t e r n a l t y p e , e . g . , L a r r y 0 ' B r i e n , check h i s r e t u r n s . "4

Now, can you te l l u s a b o u t t h a t p a r t o f t h e c o n -5

v e r s a t i o n ?

6A. Oh , I have no i nde pen d en t r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t h a t

7c o n v e r s a t i o n .

8Q. I n c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t h e p h r a s e , "an e x t e r n a l t y p e , "

9 do yo U h a v e an y r e c o l l e c t i o n o f a c o n v e r s a t i o n a b o u t c o n v e y -

10i n g t o Mr. S h u l t z some b i t o f i n f o r m a t i o n c o n c e r n i n g Mr .

11O ' B r i e n ?

12 .A. _ I have no r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t e l l i n g Mr . Ehr l ichman

13what t o d o , e x c e p t t o be s u r e t h a t s i n c e t h e r e was ,

14a p p a r e n t l y, an i n v e s t i g a t i o n o f t h e Hughes o r g a n i z a t i o n

15i n v o l v i n g O' Br i en t h a t i t co u ld b e f o l l o w e d t o i t s c o n c l u s i o n

]( jand as o n e o f t h e l a t e r documents I t r u s t yo u w i l l p u t i n t o

17e v i d e n c e w i l l show, I t e l l them if n o t h i n g t u r n s u p, drop i t .

18Yo u have t h a t document , I assume?

InQ I t h i n k we w i l l g e t t o a document which r e f l e c t s

29 t h a t , s i r .

21 A. Yes , and o f c o u r se eXCUlpatory m a t t e r s s h o u l d b e

22 p u t i n as w e l l as o t h e r s .

23 Q. I f I j u s t m i g h t have one more q u e s t i o n on t h a t .

24 A. Yo u can have f i v a .

25 Q. Th e v-IOrds " e x t e r n a l t y p e , " t h a t d o e s n ' t b r i n g

HOOVERREPORTINGCO, INC.320 Massachusetts Avenue, NL I

Washington, D.C. 20002 I,(202) 546-6666



116 back any r e c o l l e c t i o n o f a c o n v e r s a t i o n i n which i n f o r m a t i o n

2

was conveyed i n a f a s h i o n f rom some t h i r d p a r t y o r s o m e t h i ~

3o f t h a t n a t u r e , r a t h e r t h a n d i r e c t l y f rom a Whi te House

4p e r s o n t o t h e IRS?

5A. I \ ' l ou ldn ' t know wh o s u c h a t h i r d p a r t y would b e .

6~ Now, s i r, a t a b o u t t h i s same t i m e , a s I have

7a l l u d e d ; t o , t h e I n t e r n a l Revenue S e r v i c e was i n t h e p r o c e s s 0

8i n v e s t i g a t i n g a l l o f t h e s e many Hughes r e l a t e d i t e m s an d

9 t h e y h ad come upon t h e O ' B r i e n b u s i n e s s and t h e y h a d s h o r t l y ,

10p r i o r t o t h e t i m e o f t h i s m e e t i n g t o which we h a v e b e e n

11r e f e r r i n g , s c h e d u l e d an i n t e r v i e w o f Mr. O ' B r i e n and Mr.

12 . O ' B r i e n ha d f a i l e d t o show up f o r t h a t i n t e r v i e w an d t h e r e

13 was c o n s i d e r a b l e d i s c u s s i o n c o n c e r n i n g t h a t f a c t a t t h e h i g h

14 r a n k s o f t h e I n t e r n a l Revenue S e r v i c e , and wha t I am a s k i n g

15 you

] I ; 11. Yo u a r e t e l l i n g me you lenovT t h i s ?

17 ~ R i g h t , t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e h as e s t a b l i s h e d t h a t .

18 A. Okay.

HI Q An d s i n c e t h a t e v e n t c r y s t a l l i z e d s h o r t l y b e f o r e

29 t h i s m e e t i n g , c an y ou t e l l u s w h e t h e r you became aware a t o r

21 a b o u t t h i s t i m e t h a t s u c h an e v e n t h a d o c c u r r e d , i . e . , t h e y

22 h ad gone o u t t o i n t e r v i e w 0 ' B r i e n and h e h a d n ' t shmm up and

23 t h e y were c o n s i d e r i n g w h a t n e x t t o do w i t h him?

24 11. Yo u would have t o r e f r e s h my r e c o l l e c t i o n a s t o

25 some document on t h a t . I am s u r e you have documents .

HOOVER REPORTING CO INC .320 Ma ssac hus etts Avenue , N.LWashington , D.C 20002 II(202) 546 ·6666



1.13'6

117 ~ A l l r i g h t , we w i l l g e t t o some documents .

2

& P e r h a p s i t would h e l p t o r e f r e s h my r e c o l l e c t i o n 1

3i f you would t e l l me, when you s a y t h a t t h e IR S was h a v i n g

4d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h r e g a r d t o w h e t h e r t o go f o r w a r d w i t h t h e

50 ' Br i en i n v e s t i g a t i o n - - i s t h a t \.,rhat you a r e t e l l i n g me?

6~ We l l , e x a c t l y how t o p r o c e e d n e x t i n s o f a r a s Mr.

7O ' B r i e n " was c o n c e r n e d i n t h e c o n t e x t o f t h e i r o v e r a l l Hughes

8i n v e s t i g a t i o n , b e c a u s e t o be s u r e Mr. O ' B r i e n was one o f

9 p r o b a b l y h u n d r e d s o f p e o p l e - -

10A. What w e r e y o u r d i s c u s s i o n s , i s w h a t I am t r y i n g

11t o g e t a t .

12 .Q. J m e n n e x t t o s che d u l e an i n t e r v i e w and t h a t t ype

13 o f t h i n g .

14 A {men o r w h e t h e r, o r b o t h ?

15 ~ We l l , b o t h t o a c e r t a i n e x t e n t .

] (jA. You mean t h e I n t e r n a l Revenue S e r v i c e was n o t

17

18 \

g o i n g f o r w a r d , n e c e s s a r i l y ?

Q. We l l , I t h i n k we w i l l come back t o t h a t , b u t t h e i r

I n p o l i c y a t t h a t t i m e wa s t o , a s t o a number o f f i g u r e s , b o th

20 R e p u b l i c a n and D e m o c r a t i c , t h a t came up i n t h e Hughes i n v e s t i -

21 g a t i o n

22 A. T h a t was n o t t o u s e t h e i r - -

23 Q. lVlindful o f t h e p o l i t i c a l s e n s i t i v i t y t o t r y t o

24 de l ay i t , b u t i f I can go on I t h i n k we w i l l come back t o

25 t h a t .

HOOVERREPORTINGCO INC.320 Ma ssac hu setts Avenue. N.E. I

Wa shington , DC. 20002 II(202) 546 -66 66



18 7I

18 A. No t t o do w h a t t h e y ha d done t o me i n ' 52 and i n

2

' 62?3

Q I c a n ' t speak t o t h a t .

4A. We l l , I h a v e spoken t o t h a t .

5Q At t h e same t i m e , and pe r hap s r e l a t e d t o t h e

6n o t a t i o n s on Mr . E h r l i c h m a n ' s n o t e s , and maybe you b e t t e r

7p u l l t h ~ mback i n f r o n t o f y o u , t h e n o t a t i o n " c o n t r i b u t o r s , "

8a b o u t t h e same t i m e a s you a r e h a v i n g t h i s d i s c u s s i o n w i t h

9 Mr. Haldeman an d Mr. E h r l i c h m a n , ev iden ce b e f o r e t h e Grand

10J u r y e s t a b l i s h e s t h a t t h e r e wa s d i s c u s s i o n b e t w e e n Mr .

11Ehr l ichman and Mr. C h o t i n e r a b o u t t h e p r o d u c t i o n o f a l i s t

]2 .o f c o n t r i b ~ t o r s .

13NOW, we a r e n o t i n t e r e s t e d i n t h a t a s an independen

14m a t t e r , b u t we a r e i n t e r e s t e d i n r a i s i n g t h a t b e c a u s e i t seems

15t o t i e i n t o t h e 0 ' Br i en m a t t e r , and wha t I \ 'lQuld l i k e t o do

]( ji s p l a c e b e f o r e you a l i s t which w i l l b e marked 0 -2 - -

I iA. 0 - 3 . I g o t 2 .

18Q I am s o r r y , w h a t I w i l l mark as 0 - 3 , and ask yo u

I !)t o t a k e a look a t t h a t .


21 was marked E x h i b i t 0 -3


2 ;J THE ~ V I T N E S S :Yes .

24 tAfuat i s y o u r q u e s t i o n , Mr . Horowi tz?

25

HOOVERREPORTING CO, INC.320 Massachusetts Avenue, NL ,

Washington, DC. 20002 II(202) 546·6666



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320 Massa chus etts Avenue , N.E. "Washington, D.C . 20002 II(202) 546 -6666

188 '

BY MR. HOROWITZ:

~ I n c o n n e c t i o n w i t h t h e same c o n v e r s a t i o n you haa"

s ir , a b o u t Mr. O ' B r i e n , which i s r e f l e c t e d h e r e i n t h e s e

n o t e s o f A u g u s t 3 , and t h e n o t a t i o n i m m e d i a t e l y above t h a t

" c o n t r i b u t o r s , II do you r e c a l l w h e t h e r t h e r e was a d i s c u s s i o n

a b o u t u s i n g you r powers a g a i n s t Democra t ic c o n t r i b u t o r s ?

An d I Sl:lOW you t h a t l i s t b e c a u s e i t was a l i s t , t h e e v i d e n c e

e s t a b l i s h e s , which was p r o d u c e d a t a b o u t t h i s p e r i o d o f t i m e

o r f o l l owing t h i s p e r i o d o f t i m e .

A. A re t h e s e Democra t ic c o n t r i b u t o r s ?

Q. Ye s .

A. -Did you e s t a b l i s h t h a t ?

Q Ye s .

DO you r e c a l l w h e t h e r t h a t was d i s c u s s e d , u s i n g

y o u r powers a g a i n s t c o n t r i b u t o r s ?

A. I d o n ' t und e r s t and t h e q ue s t i o n .

Why d o n ' t you p u t i t more p r e c i s e l y , s o t h a t t h e

Grand J u r y w i l l b e a b l e t o u n d e r s t a n d i t when t h ey read t h e

t r a n s c r i p t ?

Q P e r h a p s I have c o n f u s e d you somewha t b e c a u s e i t i s

a l i t t l e p r e m a t u r e t o show you t h e l i s t .

Th e l i s t was n o t p r o d u c e d u n t i l somewhat l a t e r b u t

a l l I am a s k i n g y ou i s on y o u r n o t e s , r a t h e r Mr. Ehr l i chman ' s

n o t e s o f t h i s c o n v e r s a t i o n wi th y o u , which i s r e f l e c t e d i n

0 - 1 , you r e f e r r e d t o u s ing o u r powers a g a i n s t c o n t r i b u t o r s



1

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Washi ngton , DC. 20002(202) 546-6666

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,III

-189

and Lar ry O 'B r i e n .

Now, i n f a c t , t h e ev i d enc e e s t a b l i s h e s t h a t t h e ,

same day a s t h i s m e e t i n g t h e r e wa s a m e e t i n g b e tw een - - Sha l l

I w a i t u n t i l yo u a r e f i n i s h e d c o n s u l t i n g ?

A. We l l , I t h i n k you a r e p u t t i n g an assumpt ion i n

t h e r e t h a t I do n o t s a y, " t o u se o u r powers a g a i n s t t h e

Democra t s . "

What we a r e r e f e r r i n g t o h e r e i s w h a t I r e f e r r e d

t o y e s t e r d a y , and w h a t I r e f e r r e d t o a ga i n t o d a y, r e f e r r e d

t o , Mr. Ruth , a g a i n t o d a y i s someth ing I s t r o n g l y b e l i e v e i n ,

t h a t t h e r e should be a s i n g l e s t a n d a r d where j u s t i c e i s

concerned and a s i n g l e s t a n d a r d where governm e n t g e n e r a l l y

i s c o n c e r n e d , and n o t a d o u b l e s t a n d a r d .

And I was q u i t e aware t h a t t h e IRS wa s h a r a s s i n g ,

i f I may u s e t h a t t e r m , n o t o n l y c o n t r i b u t o r s , b u t o t h e r

f r i e nds on o u r s i d e . I f e l t t h a t t h ey s hou l d s i m p l y h a v e a

s i n g l e s t a n d a r d . T h a t i s what I was t a l k i n g a b o u t .

I d o n ' t r e c a l l a s k ing anybody t o p r e p a r e a l i s t

o f c o n t r i b u t o r s and g ive i t t o t h e IRS. I have no r e c o l l e c -

t i o n o f t h a t . I h a v e no r e c o l l e c t i o n o f s e e i n g t h i s l i s t .

I t h i n k t h i s was shown t o me y e s t e r d a y, maybe on e o f t h e

same l i s t s was shown t o me y e s t e r d a y .

Q. . S i r , i f I m i g h t c o n t i n u e o n .

A. S u r e .

MR. HOROWITZ: We w i l l mark a s D-4, and I w i l l



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HOOVERREPORTINGCO. INC.320 Massachusetts Avenue, NL ,IWashington. D.C. 20002 \(202) 546-6666

19'0

hand a copy t o y o u , a s l i g h t l y l o n g e r t h an one p a g e t y p e d

memorandum which b e a r s t h e he ad i n g , "Hemorandum f o r H. R.

Haldeman from Th e P r e s i d e n t . "

I would l i k e t o a sk you some q u e s t i o n s a b o u t t h a t .

THE WITNESS: S u r e .

MR. HOROWITZ: T h a t i s E x h i b i t D-4 .

(The document r e f e r r e d t o

,.,as marked E x h i b i t D- 4

f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )

BY MR. HOROWITZ:

Q. Yo u have t ake n t h e t i m e t o r e a d t h i s and I t h i n k

q u e s t i o n s a b o u t s e v e r a l o f t h e r e f e r e n c e s t h e r e , t o w h a t

a p p e a r s t o have been a c o n v e r s a t i o n be tween y o u r s e l f and t h e n

f o r m e r S e c r e t a r y C o n n a l l y. I t h i n k h e a l r e a d y ha d l e f t h i s

p o s i t i o n as S e c r e t a r y o f t h e Tr e a s u r y.

The n o t e s r e a d , s i r , and I am t a k i n g p o r t i o n s o f

them, b u t by r e f e r e n c e t o y o u r c o n v e r s a t i o n a b o u t H r. O ' B r i e n

t h a t , q u o t e , "Conna l ly f e e l s v e r y s t r o n g l y t h a t any i n f o r m a -

t i o n we g e t i n t h i s m a t t e r s h o u l d n o t b e h e l d b u t s h o u l d pop

o u t j u s t a s q u i c k l y as p o s s i b l e . "

An d i n t h e same v e i n you r e f e r t o , q u o t e ,

" C o n n a l l y ' s v e ry s t r o n g c o n v i c t i o n i s t h a t d r o p p i n g someth ing

on O ' B r i e n w i l l have f a r more e f f e c t no w t h a n a t a l a t e r

t i m e , " c l o s e q u o t e .



19 1

122 NOw, can you t e l l u s w h a t you i n t e n d e d t o do i n

2

t h a t c o n n e c t i o n ?3

~ A l l I c an t e l l you i s t h a t I am r e f l e c t i n g h e r e , a s

4I r e a d t h i s memorandum, w h a t f o r m e r S e c r e t a r y C o n n a l l y h a d

5u rg e d i n t e r m s o f t h e ha n d l i ng o f t h i s m a t t e r .

6Q Did you ag r ee wi t h h i s u r g i n g a t t h e t i m e ?

7A. L e t us speak v e r y p r e c i s e . In t e r m s o f a p o l i t i c a l

8campaign , t h e r e a r e t h o s e wh o u s e b r o a d and sweeping t e r m s

9 which may mean one t h i n g t o them and s o m e t h i n g e l s e t o some-

10body e l s e .

11As f a r a s I was c o n c e r n e d , and obv i ous ly you w i l l

12 .p u t t h i s i ~ t h e r e c o r d , I wanted t h e m a t t e r t o be h a n d l e d i n

13an evenhanded way.

14 F o r example , as you w i l l n o t e , I say "Ehr l ichman

15 s a y s t h a t u n l e s s O ' B r i e n r e s p o n d s w i t h a r e q u e s t t h a t h e

]l js u b m i t t o a v o l u n t a r y IRS i n t e r r o g a t i o n , t h a t he b e subpoena e d

17 I t h i n k t h i s s hou l d n o t b e h a n d l e d on t h a t b a s i s u n t i l a t

18 l e a s t a t e l e p h o n e c a l l i s made by t h e head o f th e IR S t o

1!l O ' B r i e n and b e f o r e he s t o n e w a l l s i t , a subpoena s h o u l d

20 f o l l ow. "

21 T h a t was t h e p r o p e r wa y t o ha n d l e t h e Chairman o f

22 t h e Democra t ic P a r t y , r a t h e r t h a n t h e wa y t h a t Mr . Stans i s

23 be ing h a n d l e d by some o f h i s o p p o n e n t s .

24 Q I am s o r r y , i f I m i g h t j u s t ask a few more

25 q u e s t i o n s a b o u t t h i s memorandum.

HOOVER REPORTING CO , INC . I320 Massa chus etts Avenue , N.E.

Washington, D.C. 20002 II(202) 546·666.6



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A. Sure .

I n

.......

Q. You w i l l note ' t h'a ~ i i i "ti:1, , beginning o f the second-----.

paragraph on the f i r s t page, yo u " i ' : ~ e r't o "" ', Connally s t rongly

urged t h a t i n add i t i on to fo l lowing '~ '~ ~ \ i ' g h,,:; ~""~ h e [ ! ; 5)t h a t wa s paid to O'Br ien an d a s s o c i a t e s , an d ~ h'e 'r Jt h a t wa s pa id t o Joe Napol i tan , we should fo l low on the

Napoli ti,an r e tu rns i n 1968 an d 0 ' Br ien ' s as w e l l , " c l o se

quo t e .

Can you t e l l us whether Mr. Connal ly gave yo u

t h a t s p e c i f i c in format ion o r \ ' lhether yo u gave i t t o him?

A. I knew nothing about Mr . Napoli ta n o r what had

happened i n the '68 campaign.

Back the re , Connally, Mr. Connally wa s on th e

o the r s i d e i n ' 68 , as yo u may r e c a l l , an d he \'las suppor t ing

Mr. Humphrey and t he re fo re what he po in t s ou t , an d i f yo u

read t h i s memorandum, i t says accord ing t o Connally t he re

was approximate ly nine mi l l ion d o l l a r s i n unpa id b i l l s a f t e r

Humphrey's u nsuc ces s f u l campaign. A ll of t he b i l l s submi t ted

to Napol i tan were pa id . The o the r s were no t , a p pa ren t l y.

O'Br ien a t t h a t t ime was making a g r e a t deal ou t

o f the f a c t he was an unpaid N a t i o n a l Chairman. Of course ,

Connally ,was point ing up, I assume, from h i s exper ience on

the Democrat ic s ide some o f the ma t t e r s t h a t were popping up

i n the Hughes i nves t iga t ion t h a t , i f they proved t o be t r u e ,

should be pub l i c ly exposed.

\; D o c l d : 3 1 4 4 2 5 9 8



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... ".

......

.....19 3

Q. J \ . t s ~going back, because I perhaps lumped two

t h i n g ~i n t o one i 'ri "'m:f ques t ion t o you.

as t h ~'\'+ n f o r m a t i o n a b ~ ~'t e r - - - - J p a i d

S p e c i f i c a l l y, as f a r

t o O'Br ien an d as soc i -

a t e s a n d [ j] h a t was paid t o Napoli t a n , t h a t p a r t i c u l a r

i n fo rma t ion , do yo u r e c a l l whether yo u conveyed t h a t to Mr .

Connally o r whether he conveyed t h a t t o you?

~ . I have no r e c o l l e c t i o n . I th ink t h a t i t was th e

o t h e r way around, t h a t Mr. Connally knew about i t .

~ Do you r e c a l l l earn ing where Mr. Connally found

t h a t ou t from?

~ No, I d o n ' t know where he could have l earned i t .

I t could h ~ v every wel l been pub l i c knowledge a t th e t ime

o f th e Hughes i n v e s t i g a t i o n . In f ~ c t , be su re to check Jack

Anderson's column. Your s t a f f seems t o be very i n t e r e s t e d

i n t h a t , an d t h a t i s always a good s ou r c e .

Q.S i r , i f I ca n cont inue on with t h i s mat t e r - -

~ I won ' t ever s top you.

(Continuing) beY0n.d those no te s , bu t l e t me

ask you f i r s t , ca n yo u t e l l us whether yo u had d i s cus sed

th e O'Brien mat t e r i n the summer o f '7 2 with Mr. Connally

p r i o r t o th e t ime o f what appears t o have been an August 9 ,

',7 2 , conversa t ion?

~ I have no such r e c o l l e c t i o n of a con ve r sa t i on , no.

~ Do yo u r e c a l l having f u r t h e r conversa t ions with

Mr. Connally l a t e r i n the summer r ega r d i n g the same bus iness

HOOVERREPORTINGCO. INC." ' ' n " j ~M , ;~1 3c2 sl : ' ~ ~ - ' l nu e ,NE. ,Il.'4niih.glIOlj.JIuaJ- ' !ID O C I d : 3 1 4 4 2 5 9 8

0fl2)54 6·66 66



25 i9 41

o f Hr . O ' B r i e n ' s t a x s i t u a t i o n ?

2

A No ,

I h a v e no i n d e p e n d e n tr e c o l l e c t i o n o f

any3

f u r t h e r c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h H r. C o n n a l l y.

4Q E i t h e r t e l e p h o n i c o r i n a m e e t i n g ?

5A No. No .

6Oh , I would h a v e t o q u a l i f y t h a t t o t h i s e x t e n t :

7 When n q ~ h i n g ,a s I h a d e x p e c t e d , d e v e l o p e d o u t o f t h e O ' B r i e n

8 i n v e s t i g a t i o n , an d i n s t e a d o f c o n d u c t i n g tw o y e a r s o f

9h a r a s s m e n t a g a i n s t h i m , as t h e y h a v e a g a i n s t M r. Rebozo , f o r

10exam p l e , t h e y s i m p l y d r o p p e d t h e m a t t e r .

11 I remember t h a t on o n e o c c a s i o n - - t h a t was

12 s h o r t l y b e ~ o r et h e e l e c t i o n - - C o n n a l l y s a i d t h a t IRS, h e

13 s a y s t h a t i s w h a t yo u h a v e t o ex p e c t , I d i d n ' t e x p e c t t h e y

14 would do a n y t h i n g . He s a i d t h e y a r e r i g h t i n t h e p o c k e t , a t

15 t h a t t im e a t l e a s t , i n t h e pock e t o f t h e Democra t ic l ' a r t y .

]( j I would s a y t h e t o p l e a d e r s h i p was a l l su p p o r t e r s

17 o f 11:cGovern . I t h i n k t h a t wa s t h e o t h e r p o i n t h e made . I

18 am n o t r e f e r r i n g t o t h e ma n a t t h e v e ~J t o p b e caus e , a s y ou

I!) I know, t h e r e a r e o n l y tw o p e o p l e a p p o i n t e d b y t h e P r e s i d e n t ,

20 w i t h t h e a d v i c e o f t h e S e c r e t a r y o f T r e a s u r y.

21 A l l o f t h e r e s t i s a s e l f - p e r p e t u a t i n g b u r e a u c r a c y

22 and i t wa s t h a t b u r e a u c r a c y t h a t C o n n a l l y, even as S e c r e t a r y

2;3 o f T r e a s u r y, was u n a b l e t o c o n t r o l , and I d o n ' t mean c o n t r o l

24 f o r i m p r o p e r p u r p o s e s b u t t o c o n t r o l them t o g e t them t o h a v e

25 a s i n g l e s t a n d a r d , t h e same t h i n g I am u r g i n g u p on a l l o f y o u

HOOVER REPORTING CO, INC il20 Massac huset ts Avenue , N.E.

Washington , D.C 20002 I'(202) 546·6666

II



19 5

126 Q, I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t .

2

I f I m i g h t c o n t i n u e on and f i l l i n a fe w f a c t s3

which ev idenc e b e f o r e t h e Grand J u r y h a s e s t a b l i s h e d .

4I n m i d - A u g u s t , i n f a c t , t h e I n t e r n a l Revenue

5s e r v i c e a r r a nge d an i n t e r v i e w w i t h Mr . O ' B r i e n , and t h e y d i d

6i n t e r v i e w Mr. O ' B r i e n , and i t i s o f i n t e r e s t t o t h e Grand

7J u r y wh e :t h e r y o u r e c e i v e d , p e r s o n a l l y r e c e i v e d , any memorandum

8p r e p a r e d by t h e I n t e r n a l Revenue S e r v i c e , one o r a n o t h e r o f

9 t h e i r a g e n t s , co n ce r n in g o r summar iz ing t h a t i n t e r v i e w.

10A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l p e r s o n a l l y r e c e i v i n g any memoranda.

11 I do r e c a l l r e c e i v i n g a r e p o r t t h a t t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n wa s a

.12 . d r y h o l e an d t h a t t h e whole m a t t e r was b e i n g dropped a t some

13 p o i n t . I d o n ' t know ' ' 'ho gave i t t o me.

14Q. We w i l l g e t t o t h a t i n a m i n u t e , s i r , b u t j u s t f o r

15 t h e t i m e be i ng i f we can d i s t i n g u i s h be tween j u s t a memorandum

] (j o f an i n t e r v i e w o f O ' B r i e n , an d you i n d i c a t e d you d o n ' t

17 r e c a l l r e c e i v i n g such a memorandum - -

18 A. I s a y I d o n ' t r e c a l l r e c e i v i n g an y memoranda on

1!1 t h e m a t t e r . I am t e l l i n g you ' ' ' ha t I do r e c a l l and w h a t I

20 know t h e Grand J u r y i s m o s t i n t e r e s t e d i n i s what happened i n

21 a l l o f t h i s c a s e , and wha t happened wa s t h a t t h e IR S c o n d u c t e d

22 a c u r s o r y i n v e s t i g a t i o n an d d r o p p e d t h e m a t t e r and we d i d

23 n o t h i n g f u r t h e r .

M I n c i d e n t a l l y , we p u t n o t h i n g o u t p u b l i c l y on i t .

25 Q, As f a r a s t h e memorandum o f t h e i n t e r v i e w, you

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19627 1

d o n ' t r e c a l l h a v i n g s e e n o n e . Do yo u r e c a l l Mr . Ehr l ichman2

o r anyone e l s e b r i e f i n g you o r d i s c u s s i n g w i t h yo u t h o s e3

t h i n g s t h a t Mr. O' B r i e n h a d s a i d d u r i n g h i s i n t e r v i e w ?

4A. I d o n ' t have any r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t h a t . I t h i n k

5i t , , ,ould depend on t h e t i m e , Mr. H o r o w i t z . I f I w e r e b u s y

6w i t h , you know, p r e p a r i n g a s p e e c h o r s o m e t h i n g o f t h a t s o r t ,

7t h ey w o ~ l d n ' th a v e b r i e f e d me on a m a t t e r o f t h i s s o r t .

8Normal ly, even though t h i s was t h e campaign

9 p e r i o d , a t t h a t t i m e we, as you know, were r a t h e r b u s y i n

10i n t e r n a t i o n a l a f f a i r s , and I s i m p l y w a s n ' t p a y i n g much

11a t t e n t i o n t o t h e campaign , and I l e f t i t t o my t o p a p p o i n t e e s

.12 '. t o h a n d l e m a t t e r s o f t h i s s o r t . B u t I am n o t s a y i n g t h a t h e

13 ma y n o t have b r i e f e d me. He m i g h t h a v e .

14~ NOW, t h e i n t e r v i e w and any c o n v e r s a t i o n s a b o u t

15 t h e i n t e r v i e w would h a v e o c c u r r e d i n m i d - A u g u s t , an d o f

]l j c o u r s e t h e c o n v e n t i o n a t \ ' lhich you were nomina ted a g a i n ' ' las

17 Augus t 21 o r 23 - - someth ing i n t h a t n e i g h b o r h o o d .

18 Nm'l, t h e r e a f t e r , c e r t a i n r e p o r t s , i n l a t e Augus t

, 1!-l and e a r l y S e p t e m b e r, , ' lere p r e p a r e d by t h e I n t e r n a l Revenue

20 S e r v i c e w h i c h d i s c u s s and a n a l y z e Mr . O ' B r i e n ' s s i t u a t i o n .

21 Now, you h a v e a l l u d e d t o o n e , and I \-lQuld l i k e

22 t o mark as t h e n e x t Grand J u r y - -

2,') & I h a v e n ' t a l l u d e d t o any w r i t t e n r e p o r t t h a t I

24 h a v e s e e n . I h a v e t o l d y o u , Mr. Horowi tz " t h a t I h a v e no

25 r e c o l l e c t i o n o f h a v i n g s e e n a w r i t t e n r e p o r t on t h i s , no

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r e c o l l e c t i o n . I may have - - I ma y h a v e . I t may h a v e c r o s s e d

my d e s k . I do r e c a l l h a v i n g r e c e i v e d i n s u b s t a n c e a r e p o r t

t h a t n o t h i n g wa s d e v e l o p e d on t h e O 'B r i e n i n v e s t i g a t i o n , i t

h a s b e e n d r o p p e d .

HR. HOROWITZ: I f I m i g h t , s i r , l e t me mark a s

D-5 , a r e p o r t which was p r e p a r e d by t h e I n t e r n a l Revenue

S e r v i c e' ~

THE WITNESS: F o r whom?

HR. HORmlITZ: I w i l l g i v e t h a t t o you.

T h i s o n e was an I n t e r n a l R e p o r t p r e p a r e d t o t h e

Commiss ioner f rom t h e Ac t i n g A s s i s t a n t Commiss ioner.

(The docume.nt r e f e r r e d t o

wa s marked E x h i b i t . D- 5


THE WITNESS: I have s c a n n e d t h e r e p o r t .

BY MR. HOROWITZ:

~ Yo u h a v e s c a n n e d t h a t , and do yo u r e c a l l t h a t o r

a n y t h i n g s u b s t a n t i a l l y s i m i l a r t o t h a t , r e c a l l h a v i n g s een

i t , H r. Nixon?

O I d o n ' t r e c a l l . I t i s p o s s i b l e i n t h e mass o f

m a t e r i a l t h a t comes a c r o s s a p r e s i d e n t ' s desk t h a t i t m i g h t

have b e e n s e n t t o me, i f i t ' lias a v a i l a b l e t o u s . And,

i n c i d e n t a l l y , s o t h a t we can b e p e r f e c t l y c a n d i d , t h i s was

on e o f t h O s e s e n s i t i v e c a s e r e p o r t s where i t would have. b e e n

a v a i l a b l e t o u s , so I assume i t ,lias a v a i l a b l e t o somebody.



198

129 Q L et me ask yo u t h i s : Do yo u r e c a l l Mr . Ehr l ichman

2in forming you around t h i s per iod o f t ime t h a t he had h imse ff

3p e r s o n a l l y, an d n o t y o u r s e l f , t h a t he had r e c e i v e d r e p o r t s

4s i m i l a r t o t h a t ?

5A. No , I only r e c a l l t h a t Mr . Ehr l ichman wa s fo l l ow-

6ing the O'Brien m a t t e r . He d i d n ' t i n d i c a t e t o me t h a t I can

7r e c a l l ' ~ h a t r e p o r t s , i f any, he \"as r ece iv ing i n w r i t t e n

8form o r o r a l form. And he c e r t a i n l y \"ouldn ' t have wasted my

9 t ime by going i n t o g r e a t d e t a i l about a m a t t e r o f t h i s s o r t .

10A ll t h a t I r e c a l l wi th r ega rd t o Mr . Ehr l ichman,

11my conve r sa t ion wi th him about t h i s m a t t e r a t t h a t t ime , i s

12, , ,hat I a l r e a d y t e s t i f i e d t o , t h a t th e I n t e r n a l Revenue

13Serv ice has comple ted i t s i n v e s t i g a t i o n o f O'Br i en , an d have

14found no th ing . And I s a i d , w e l l , t h a t i s what I expec t ed ,

15 drop i t , t hey w o n ' t t r y t o f i nd any th ing .

1/iQ. S i r , some evidence b e f o r e t h e Grand Ju ry

17 e s t a b l i s h e s t h a t Mr . Ehr l ichman was , dur ing t h i s p e r i o d o f

18 t ime , i n c o n t a c t wi th a Mr . Roger Bar th , who wa s a gent leman

HI who ,,,as t hen employed by t h e I n t e r n a l Revenue Serv ice as

20 A s s i s t a n t t o th e Commissioner, an d t h a t a t one t ime o r

21 ano the r dur ing t h i s per iod th e tw o o f them d i s c u s s e d t h i s

22 m a t t e r.

2,'3 Do yo u r e c a l l be ing a,,,are o f Mr . Barth and /o r

24 aware o f Mr . Ehr l i chman ' s c o n t a c t wi th Mr . Ba r th on t h e

25 s u b j e c t ?HOOVERREPORTINGCO, INC.320 Massachusetts Avenu l, N.E.

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19 9

& I was aware o f Mr. Bar th , a l t h oug h I d o n ' t know

him w e l l , I wa s aware t h a t he was work ing i n IRS, and from '.

t h e documents t h a t you h a v e shown me i t a p p e a r s t h a t Mr. Bar th

and Mr. Ehr l ichman were i n c o n t a c t , b u t I h a v e no r e c o l l e c t i o n

o f i t i n d e p e n d e n t o f t h o s e documents .

~ A l l r i g h t , t h a t wa s my q u e s t i o n .

A. So r ry f o r such a long a n s w e r.

. ~ Nor do you r e c a l l w h e t h e r Mr. B a r t h - - L e t me

r e p h r a s e t h a t .

Do you r e c a l l u n d e r s t an d in g o r h e a r i n g a t t h a t

p o i n t o f t i m e t h a t Mr. B a r t h ha d p r e p a r e d some r e p o r t ?

A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l t h a t . I t i s p o s s i b l e t h a t I m i g h t

have been s o t o l d •

~ NOW, s i r , I have a s k e d you a b o u t r e p o r t s . T h e r e

i s a n o t a t i o n on a n o t h e r document I t h i n k I can j u s t

h a n d l e t h i s w i t h one q u e s t i o n r e a l l y - - which l e a d s me t o ask

you w h e t h e r you d u r i n g t h i s p e r i o d o f t i m e , you y o u r s e l f sa w

Mr. O ' B r i e n ' s t a x r e t u r n s ?

A. T h a t I sa w h i s t a x r e t u r n s ?

Q. Or a s k e d t o s e e h i s t a x r e t u r n s , y e s .

A. I can s a y c a t e g o r i c a l l y t h a t I d i d n o t s e e h i s t a x

r e t u r n s , an d a s f a r a s a s k i n g t o s e e h i s t a x r e t u r n s , I c a n ' t

r e c a l l a sk i n g t o s e e h i s t a x r e t u r n s .

I d i d n ' t even t a k e , a s I p o i n t e d o u t y e s t e r d a y,

enough t im e l o o k i n g a t my own r e t u r n s , l e t a l o n e l o o k i n g a t



20 0

31 1somebody e l s e ' s .

2MR. HOROWITZ: Now i f I m i g h t mark a s D-6, w h a t

3a r e h a n d w r i t t e n n o t e s , a g a i n Mr . Ehr l ichman i s t h e a u t h o r o f

4t h e n o t e s , and t h e y a r e d a t e d , a l t h o u g h t h e d a t e i s n o t

5c o m p l e t e h e r e b u t "I e have e s t a b l i s h e d t h a t t h e d a t e i s

6September 5 , 1 9 7 2 , and they r e l a t e t o a c o n v e r s a t i o n aboard

7A ir F o r c e One be tween y o u r s e l f and Mr. Ehr l ichman and t h e r e

8a r e some n o t a t i o n s t h e r e , and I would l i k e t o ask you a b o u t

9 t h o s e .


11 was marked E x h i b i t D-6


13 THE WITNESS: Have you p r e v i o u s l y shown us t h i s

14 document o r i s t h i s a new one?

15 MR. HOROWITZ: No , n o , you have s e en a l l o f t h e s e .

H i These were a l l f u r n i s h e d t o you.

17 THE WITNESS: When t h ey a r e ne" , , i f you , " i l l l e t

18 me know, I w i l l r e ad them more c a r e f u l l y .

HI MR. HOROWITZ: We l l , t h ey h a v e n ' t b e e n .

20 THE WITNESS: T h a t i s p e r f e c t l y a l l r i g h t f o r you

21 t o have an y you have g o t .

22 Go ahead wi th y o u r q u e s t i o n .

23 BY MR. HOROWITZ:

24 Q. NOw, s i r , a t t h e bot tom o f t h i s f i r s t page i t

25 r e a d s , " 6 • Anonymous t o H a r t r e Hughes and 0 ' B r i e n , warn

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20 1

S e n a t o r McGovern," and McGovern i s a b b r e v i a t e d .

Now, do yo u r e c a l l h a v i n g a c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h Mr .

E h r l i c h m a n o r t h i s c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h Mr. E h r l i c h m a n a b o u t

w a r n i n g S e n a t o r McGovern a b o u t t h e O ' B r i e n - H u g h e s b u s i n e s s ?

~ T h i s i s w h a t d a t e ?

Q T h i s i s S e p t e m b e r 5 , 1972 .

A. I h a v e no r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n an d i t

i s v e r y h a r d f o r me t o d e c i p h e r !-1r. E h r l i c h m a n ' s n o t e s due

t o t h e f a c t t h a t h e , l i k e many n o t e - t a k e r s , h a s a p r a c t i c e

o f w r i t i n g n o t e s t o h i m s e l f a s w e l l a s r e c o r d i n g what he i s

h e a r i n g . A l l t h a t I s a y i s t h a t I d o n ' t r e c a l l any c o n v e r -

s a t i o n o f t h i s k i n d .

Q Mere ly i n an e f f o r t t o r e f r e s h y o u r r e c o l l e c t i o n ,

do y o u have a r e c o l l e c t i o n o f a c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h Mr .

E h r l i c h m a n t h a t McGovern s h o u l d b e i n f o r m e d t h a t t h e r e was

t h i s m a t e r i a l p e r t a i n i n g t o O ' B r i e n ' s t a x s i t u a t i o n which

c o u l d p r o v e t o b e e m b a r r a s s i n g t o McGovern o r t o t h e

Democra t s?

A. No, I do n o t have a r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t h i s , a p a r t

f rom w h a t t h e s e n o t e s show.

I , f r a n k l y , ,.,ou1d b e v e r y s u r p r i s e d , v e r y s u r -

p r i s e d , if I i n d i c a t e d t h a t we were g o i n g t o t r y t o warn

S e n a t o r McGovern - - a p p a r e n t l y t h e H a r t r e f e r r e d t o i s no w

t h e young man wh o i s now a S e n a t o r f rom C o l o r a d o , and Miss

h 'es twood, you know, I g u e s s s h e was t h e c h a i r m a n o f t h e i r



20 2

1

33 campa ign - - t h a t you b e t t e r do someth ing a b o u t O 'Br i en .2

What d i f f e r e n c e would i t have made? I d o n ' t3

unde r s t and w h a t t h i s i s a bou t .4

Q. On e f i n a l q u e s t i o n on t h a t . I p h r a s e d my q u e s t i o n5

i n t e r m s o f Mr. E h r l i c h m a n .6

Do you r e c a l l any c o n v e r s a t i o n s vl i th anyone a r o u n d7

t h a t p e r i o d o f t i m e which p e r t a i n t o t h a t t y p e o f s u b j e c t ,

8t h a t i s , i n f o r m i n g t h e Democra t s o f t h i s ?

9~ I d o n ' t r e c a l l any c o n v e r s a t i o n s o f t h i s n a t u r e

10a t t l1a t t ime . I c a n n o t a f f i r m o r deny t h a t p eop l e working

11i n t h e campaign , l i k e Mr. E h r l i c h m a n , may have b r o u g h t up

12SUbjec t s , some o f them a s f a r o u t a s t h i s o n e . I t seems f a r

13o u t t o d a y.

14 ~ B u t you d o n ' t remember him b r i n g i n g up t h a t f a r -

15 o u t - t y p e t h i n g ?

]( ;A. No . I t s u r e wasn ' t my i d e a . I t h i n k i t was a

17s t u p i d i d e a , f r a n k l y.

18Q. On t h e second p a g e , s i r , t h e r e a r e t h e tw o

l!l s e n t e n c e s , o r tw o n o t a t i o n s t o which I have n o t y e t a l l u d e d

20 which a p p e a r t h e r e : "Get someone i n Las Ve g a s . Do i t .

21 As k ho w much h e g o t . "

22 An d t h e r e i s o t h e r ev ide n ce , s i r , t h a t Mr . E h r l i c h

2;1 man a n d / o r Mr . B a r t h had someone from t h e I n t e r n a l Revenue

24 S e r v i c e s i t u a t e d i n La s Vegas , a p p a r e n t l y, t o g e t i n f o r m a -

25 t i o n .

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DO you r e c a l l h e a r i n g any th i ng l i k e t h a t o r knowing

a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h a t ?

A. U n t i l t h e s e p a p e r s were p u t i n f r o n t o f me , I ha d

no r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t h a t . Having r e ad t h e s e n o t e s and a l s o

t h e t r a n s c r i p t o f a t e l eph o ne c a l l t h a t Mr. Ehr l ichman ha d

wi th Mr . S h u l t z and I t h i n k t h e t h e n h e a d o f th e I n t e r n a l

Revenue S e r v i c e , a p p a r e n t l y t h e r e was somebody, t h e y ha d

somebody i n Las Vegas , b u t I am n o t t e s t i f y i n g t o t h a t on

f i r s t h a n d knowledge . T h a t i s s i m p l y h e a r s a y.

Q. I u nde r s t a n d t h a t .

Did you know t h a t Mr. Ehr l ichman h a d anyone f rom

t h e I n t e r n a l Revenue S e r v i c e who w a s , i n e f f e c t , a c t i n g o u t

o f c h a n n e l s f o r him i n t h e f a s h i o n t h a t i s s u g g e s t e d by

t h o s e n o t e s , t h a t he had someone i n Las Vegas?

A. No. What I know i s \ .h a t h i s n o t e s show.

Q. Now,

A. As f a r a s h i s n o t e s a r e c o n c e r n e d , I am n o t g o i n g

t o t e s t i f y t o t h e i r v e r a c i t y and I am n o t g o i n g t o t e s t i f y a s

t o t h e i r i n t e r p r e t a t i o n , b e c a u s e I d o n ' t know w h a t h e m e a n t

by them.

Q. Now, f i n a l l y , Mr . Nixon , I t h i n k we a r e a t t h e en d

o f o u r documents and drawing t o a c l o s e h e r e , b u t l e t me show

you w h a t we w i l l mark as 0 -7 , which a r e , a g a i n , Mr. E h r l i c h -

m a n ' s h a n d w r i t t e n n o t e s o f a m e e t i n g be tween y o u r s e l f and h im,

and aga in p a r t o f t h e d a t e a p p e a r s t o have been c u t o f f , b u t



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\."e have e s t a b l i s h e d t h a t i t wa s September 3 0 , 1 9 7 2 .

I would l i k e you t o - - This aga in i s s o m e t h i n g

you have seen b e f o r e , b u t I w i l l p l a c e i t b e f o r e y o u .


wa s marked E x h i b i t D- 7


THE WITNESS: You a l s o h a v e - - Would you p l e a s e

g ive me t h e memoranda I wro te t o Haldeman? You w a n t t o p u t

t hose tw o i n e v i d e n c e , d o n ' t you?

MR. HOROWITZ: I b e l i e v e t h a t i s i n e v i d e n c e , s i r .

THE WITNESS: I do n ' t se e them. I have o n e .

There a r e tw o t o Haldeman. Could I s e e t h e s e c o n d on e o r

t h e f i r s t one?

MR. HOROWITZ: We can g e t i n t o t h a t .

THE WITNESS: No , I want t o s e e t h e m . I mean I

shou ld b e a b l e t o s e e them. You f u r n i s h e d them t o us e a r l i e r

MR. HOROWITZ: L e t ' s mark t h a t D-8, and t h a t i s a

one-page t y p e w r i t t e n memorandum f o r H. R. Haldeman from The

P r e s i d e n t , d a t e d Augus t 9 , 1972 .

THE WITNESS: Could I s e e t h a t t o o , b e c a u s e i t

may r e f r e s h my r e c o l l e c t i o n .


wa s marked E x h i b i t D- 8


THE ~ H T N E S S :J u s t i n a n s w e r i n g y o u r q u e s t i o n ,



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205 .

th e memorandum t o H r. Haldeman on Augus t 9 , wi th r e g a r d t o

t h i s whole m a t t e r , and which c o unse l ha s n o t q u e s t i o n e d me

On y e t , s a y s on b o t h t h e O' Br i en and Kimmelman m a t t e r s - -

Kimmelman, i n c i d e n t a l l y , wa s t h e f i n a n c e s e c r e t a r y o f t h e

McGovern campaign - - " I want you p e r s o n a l l y t o f o l l ow up

an d keep me p o s t e d on wha t h a s d e v e l o p e d . Of cou r se i f

no th ing t u r n s u p , drop t h e w h o l e m a t t e r . But l e t ' s b e s u r e

we have gone t h e e x t r a mi le and d e v e l o p e d m a t e r i a l b e f o r e

we drop t h e m a t t e r . "

I t h i n k , Mr . R u t h , i t i s p r o p e r t o have t h a t

i n and be q u e s t i o n e d on t h a t a s w e l l as m a t t e r s t h a t a r e

d e r o g a t o ~ J ,do y ou no t ?

MR. RUTH: I t h i n k Mr . Horowi tz i n t e n d e d t o .

THE WITNESS: We l l , Mr . Horowi tz d i d n ' t i n t e n d

t o p u t t h i s i n t ho r o ugh l y and I h a v e .

MR. RUTH: I t h i n k he i n t e n d e d t o p u t i t i n .

THE WITNESS: I d o n ' t q u e s t i o n Mr . H o r o w i t z '

e t h i c s . I am s u r e he wa s going t o p u t i t i n .

Now, w h a t do you want t o know a b o u t t h i s one?

BY MR. HOROWITZ:

Q. By t h i s one - - I t h i n k we have c o n f u s e d some

p i e c e s o f p a p e r i n

A. This i s September 30 , ' 7 2 .

~ On t h e bot tom o f t h e s e c o n d p a g e , we have t h e

n o t e s , " L a r r y O'Br i en - worry him. "



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What wa s t h a t a r e f e r e n c e t o ?

A. Ivhat i s t h i s c o n v e r s a t i o n , p l e a s e ?

Q. T h i s i s a c o n v e r s a t i o n be tween Ehr l ichman and

y o u r s e l f .

A. We l l , as I s a y, t h r e e y e a r s l a t e r a l l I can

imagine i s t h a t L a r r y O ' B r i e n was w o r r y i n g Mr. Stan s w i t h a

l avvsui t . He was c e r t a i n l y b e in g a very e f f e c t i v e - - Mr .

McGovern made a g r e a t m i s t a k e i n n o t u s i n g him. He vias t h e

o n l y e f f e c t i v e p r o t h a t McGovern had work ing f o r him and was

w o r r y i n g u s . So I t h i n k t h e r e must have b e e n some d i s c u s s i o n

o f w o r r y i n g Mr. O' B r i e n w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e f a c t t h a t h e ,

h a v i n g c l a i m e d t h a t he was an u n p a i d cha i rman no w a p a r t f rom

t h e IR S i n v e s t i g a t i o n , h ad r e c e i v e d i n t h e n e i g h b o r h o o d o f

tw o h u n d r e d t h o u s a n d d o l l a r s a y e a r f rom t h e Howard Hughes

o r g a n i z a t i o n .

I t h o ugh t t h a t would worry him, and I t h o u g h t i t

was p e r f e c t l y p r o p e r t o p u t t h a t o u t .

~ Yo u unde r s t o od , s i r , d i d you n o t , t h a t ~ ~ o s e

funds had b e e n p a i d , a t l e a s t a s f a r a s t h e IR S i n v e s t i g a t i o n

ha d been e s t a b l i s h e d , ha d b e e n p a i d f o r h i s s e r v i c e s . They

w e r e n ' t p a i d a s a s a l a r y f o r t h e Democra t ic N a t i o n a l Commit-

t e e .

A. As f a r as t h e IR S i n v e s t i g a t i o n i s c o n c e r n e d - -

j u s t a moment .

Mr. O' B r i e n , you u n d e r s t a n d , ha d made a p o i n t



-38

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1t h a t he wa s an u n p a i d n a t i o n a l cha i rman when h e wa s cha i rman

2

o f t h e N a t i o n a l Commit t e e . By " u n p a i d N a t i o n a l Chai rm an , "3

t h a t me ans t o me and i t would mean t o members o f t h e Grand4

J u r y t h a t he i s n o t g o i n g t o b e p a i d t h e r e and t h ey d o n ' t

5t h i n k h e would b e t a k i n g someth ing on t h e s i d e .

6And t h e p o i n t wa s t h a t t h e Howard Hughes o r g a n i z a -

7t i o n a t t h a t t i m e wa s u n d e r ~ n t e n s i v ep u b l i c i n v e s t i g a t i o n

8a s w e l l a s p r i v a t e , wi th r e g a r d t o p a y o f f s . T h a t i s ho w

9t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n s began . An d h e r e L a r r y O ' B r i e n had h i s

10hand i n t h e t i l l t h e r e .

11Now, I am p u t t i n g no w a c o n n o t a t i o n on i t w h i c h

12 .I do n o t w a n t t o be l e f t i n t h e r e c o r d a s b e i n g u n f a i r t o

13O'Br i en . I t i s ve r y p o s s i b l e t h a t h i s s t o r y a b o u t i t i s

14c o r r e c t , t h a t he r ende red enormous s e r v i c e s f o r t h e Howard

15Hughes o r g a n i z a t i o n even though h e d i d n ' t r e g i s t e r as a

Hi l o b b y i s t a p p a r e n t l y f o r them, i n d o i n g t h e t h i n g s t h a t t h e y

17wanted t o have d o n e . And i f he d i d , he was e n t i t l e d t o b e

18p a i d , t h a t was a l l .

I!l Q So l e t me u n d e r s t a n d .

20 Those f a c t s you f e l t , i n view o f h i s p u f f i n g h i s

2 1 u n p a i d s t a t u s , s hou l d be b r o u g h t o u t t o i n d i c a t e t h a t p e r h a p s

22 he ha d n o t been unp a id , i s t h a t i t ?

A. You know, you hav e t o t h i n k o f t h e campa ign . I n

M t h e one s ens e o u r campaign , we were t h e campa ign o f t h e r i c h ,

25 wi th a l l o f t h e b i g p e o p l e s u p p o r t i n g u s , and t h e i r campa ignHOOVER REPORTING CO. INC.

320 Massachusetts Avenu ), N.E.

Washington , D.C 20002(202) 546·6666



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wa s t h e campa ign o f t h e p e o p l e , you know, l i k e Hr. S t r a u s s ,

t h e Democra t ic N a t i o n a l Chairman t o o k f i f t y t h o u s a n d d o l l a r s

i n cash f rom Ashland O i l , an d a p p a r e n t l y s o l d somebody on

t h e i d e a t h a t he d i d n ' t r e p o r t i t b e c a u s e he t hough t t h e s e

were f i v e - d o l l a r c o n t r i b u t i o n s f rom p e o p l e wh o worked f o r

Ashland O i l t h a t were a g a i n s t t h e w a r.

You c o u l d n ' t f i n d t h a t many p e o p l e i n Kentucky

t h a t \ ' lere a g a i n s t t h e w ar a t t h a t t i m e . And y e t , i t was

a c c e p t e d .

I n t h e c a s e o f O ' B r i e n , t h i s p u r i s t image o f no

connec t i on w i t h b i g b u s i n e s s , which t h e McGovern campa ign

o f c o u r s e wa s t r y i n g t o d o , a n d , i n c i d e n t a l l y , no c o n n e c t i o n

w i t h t h e m i l k i n t e r e s t s , and we r e c e i v e d t w i c e a s many

l e t t e r s from Democra t i c S e n a t o r s , i n c l u d i n g one from McGovern

and one from Humphrey, a s k in g f o r n i n e t y p e r c e n t p a r i t y on

m i l k a s we d i d f rom R e p u b l i c a n S e n a t o r s , an d t h r e e t i m e s as

many f rom Democra t ic Congressmen a s we d i d f rom R e p u b l i c a n s ,

and , i n c i d e n t a l l y , t h e y were a l l p r o p e r , a l l p r o p e r .

Q. I am s o r r y , s i r , c o u l d I j u s t t u r n b a c k t o t h e

O ' B r i e n mat te . r?

A. Oh, a l l r i g h t .

Q. On t h e f o l l owi n g page., you s t a t e - - I am s o r r y ,

Mr . Ehr l i ch m an ' s n o t e s s t a t e , "Get i t t o O ' B r i e n . Don ' t

p u b l i s h . "

Does t h a t r e f r e s h you r r e c o l l e c t i o n as t o a



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c o n v e r s a t i o n i n which t h e p u r p o s e was n o t t o make p u b l i c

t h e s e f a c t s b u t r a t h e r t o convey t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t o O ' B r i e n ,

i n d i c a t i n g t h a t he d i d p o s s i b l y f a c e t a x problems?

A No , i t d o e s n ' t r e f r e s h my r e c o l l e c t i o n . I d o n ' t

re m e mber t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n s , t h e s p e c i f i c s o f i t .

I o n l y remember, a s I have i n d i c a t e d , my gen e r a l

i n t e r e s t i n t h e O ' B r i e n m a t t e r due t o t h e f a c t t h a t he wa s

g i v i n g us a rough t i m e , and I f e l t t h a t we h a d , a t l e a s t ,

a s I p o i n t e d o u t o n l y i f t h e f a c t s bo r e i t o u t , and we

shou ld emphas ize t h i s . I s a i d i f n o t h i n g t u r n s u p , d ro p t h e

m a t t e r .

NOw , t h a t o u g h t t o be t h e r e - - t h e Grand J u r y I

t h i n k i s i n t e r e s t e d i n a m a t t e r l i k e t h a t , as w e l l a s some-

t h i n g which s a y s i f someth ing d o e s n ' t t u r n u p , go a f t e r

hi m anyway.

T h a t i s what I am t r y i n g t o s a y, and I t h i n k y ou

shou ld emphas ize t h a t t o t h e Grand J u r y t o o .

~ I n t h e same c o n v e r s a t i o n Mr. E h r l i ch ma n ' s n o t e s

r e a d , and j u s t f o r y ou r r e f e r e n c e I am on page 3 , r e a d s ,

qu o t e , "Bobby Baker b lowing w h i s t l e on L a r r y O'B r i e n and

o t h e r s , " c l o s e q u o t e . And i n u n e d i a t e l y above t h a t you ha v e

"Goss ip" - - I am s o r r y , I m i s s p o k e , Mr. Ehr l ichman h a s

" Goss ip - p l a n t , J a c k A n d e r s o n , " and J a c k Anderson ~ . , a s

u n d e r l i n e d .

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o f p l a n t i n g t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n wi t h r e p o r t e r s ?

~ S i n c e you have p u t i n t h e r e c o r d t h e name o f

Bobby B a k e r, l e t me j u s t be s u r e t h a t a f t e r a l l o f t h e a b u s e

t h a t p o o r ma n h a s t ~ < e n ,and a p p a r e n t l y some o f i t d e s e r v e d ,

b u t Bobby B a k e r h ad a p p a r e n t l y t a l k e d t o p e o p l e i n o u r

campaign , and when h e sa w t h a t \'1e were t h e v i c t im s o f t h e

r o u g h e s t campa ign p h y s i c a l l y - - and i n c i d e n t a l l y , \'1hen we d o

g e t i n t o t h i s b u s i n e s s o f w i r e t a p p i n g and so f o r t h , I w a n t t o

be s u r e t h a t t h e S p e c i a l P r o s e c u t o r t e l l s us \oThat h e h a s

done w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e bombing o f o u r P h o e n i x h e a d q u a r t e r s ,

w h a t he h a s done w i t h r e g a r d t o t w e n t y - f i v e t h o u s a n d d o l l a r s

i n damage d i r e c t l y o r d e r e d by t h e McGovern Campaign - -

Q. S i r , I am s o r r y , b u t - -

A. A l l r i g h t , no w we \ '1 i l l come back t o t h i s .

Bobby B a k e r came i n an d s a i d , l o o k , h e s a y s I

have enough o n O ' B r i e n t o s i n k him. He p u t t h a t i n .

Q. Wh o d i d he t e l l t h a t t o ?

A. Who d i d he t e l l t h a t t o ? He t o l d i t t o somebody

and t h e y r e p o r t e d i t t o me. I d o n ' t r e c a l l .

Q Do you remember wh o r e p o r t e d i t t o you?

A. Who r e p o r t e d i t t o me? I t h i n k i t c o u l d h a v e

been Haldeman, t h a t Bobby B a k e r \'1as t a l k i n g .

O On t h e s e same n o t e s , s i r , on t h e l a s t p age t h e r e

i s t h e n o t a t i o n , q u o t e , "Via A n d r e a s , d a s h "

A. I n c i d e n t a l l y , Bobby B a k e r i s r e p o r t i n g he was



21 1

142 g o i n g t o blow t h e w h i s t l e , n o t o n l y on L a r r y O' Br i e n , he

2s a i d , b u t a number o f Democra t ic Sen a to r s t h a t h e , Bobby

3B a k e r, p e r s o n a l l y h ad d e l i v e r e d cash t o .

4A p p a r e n t l y Bobby Baker had been a bagman f o r

5Hughes a t one t i m e , as w e l l , o r a t l e a s t a t r a n s m i t t a l v a l v e

6f o r many o t h e r s , a s w e l l , and he s a i d t h e r e were a number o f

7Democra t ic S e n a t o r s , t e c h n i c a l l y t h o s e on t h e L e f t , t h a t

8were t a k i n g a s a n c t i m o n i o u s a t t i t u d e and t h a t he wanted

9a l l o f t h i s b r o u g h t o u t .

10I n c i d e n t a l l y , n o t h i n g came o f t h a t . He would n o t

11have b e e n a c r e d i b l e man t o u s e i n a campaign , and t h a t

12 ,k i n d o f g o s s i p I d i d n ' t f r a n k l y f e e l was p r o p e r .

13 ~ In o t h e r words , you do r e c a l l d i s c u s s i n g u s i n g

14 t h e Bobby B a k e r i n f o r m a t i o n ? I s t h a t i t ?

15 ~ We d i d n ' t u s e i t . T h a t i s t h e whole p o i n t .

]( jQ. You r e c a l l d i s c u s s i n g i t and d e c i d i n g n o t t o , i s

17 t h a t i t ?

18 A. I r e c a l l t h a t i t wa s b r o u g h t t o my a t t e n t i o n , and

HI i t seemed t o me t o b e so wa y o u t t h a t w i t h Bobby Baker j u s t

20 h a v i n g f i n i s h e d a p r i s o n t e r m , t h a t i t would be n o t r i g h t

21 t o u se i t , and a l s o I f e l t t h a t 'ole s h o u l d j u s t go on and

22 c o n d u c t o u r own campaign .

23 We were doing a l l r i g h t w i t h o u t t h a t k ind o f

24 s t u f f . We a l l o w e d them t o engage i n t h a t k in d o f t h i n g , b u t

25 ,,,e w e n t on and d i d o u r campa ign w i t h o u t i t .

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. 21 243

1Q On t h e l a s t page t h e r e a r e t h e n o t a t i o n s , q u o t e ,

2 "Via Andreas - wor ry O ' B r i e n - work t h r o u g h Dean ," and o t h e r

3 e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e Grand J u r J e s t a b l i s h e s t h a t t h e r e was

4 an a t t e mpt t o have Mr . Andreas make an o v e r t u r e t o Mr .

5 O ' B r i e n , i n d i c a t i n g t h a t Mr. O ' B r i e n wa s i n t a x t r o u b l e .

6 Do you r e c a l l a d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t t h a t , s i r ?

7A. I d o n ' t have an i n d e p e n d e n t r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t h a t .

8 I have s e e n t h e s e n o t e s and I have b e e n t r y i n g t o t h i n k w h a t

9i t must mean .

10 I can o n l y s u r m i s e t h a t w h a t i t may mean i s t h a t

11 Andreas f i r s t was a v e r y b i g f i n a n c i a l s u p p o r t e r o f t h e

12 Democra t ic P a r t y .

13 He was a l s o one o f o u r s u p p o r t e r s i n t h i s campaign

14 and i t was f e l t t h a t A n d r e a s , wh o a l s o a p p a r e n t l y was a

15 p r e t t y good p o l i t i c a l o p e r a t o r , c o u ld have some i n f l u e n c e

Hi on O ' B r i e n i n t e rms o f t h e v i o l e n c e and v i c i o u s n e s s - - s t r i k e

17 t h e word " v i o l e n c e " i n t e r m s o f t h e word " v i c i o u s n e s s " o f

18 t h e a t t a c k s t h a t O ' B r i e n was making , n o t o n l y on Mr. S t a n s ,

In b u t on me.

20 Q. Was i t d i s c u s s e d t h a t h e would have more i n f l u -

21 e n c e i f O ' B r i e n was t o l d t h a t O 'B r i e n f a ced t a x p r o b l e m s

22 o the rw i se?

23 A. I d on ' t r e c a l l t h a t we t a l k e d a b o u t O ' B r i e n - - I

M d o n ' t r e c a l l any c o n v e r s a t i o n a b o u t O ' B r i e n ' s t a x p r o b l e m s .

25 Q I n o t h e r words , was Andreas t o be a c o u r i e r t o

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21 3

Mr. O ' B r i e n t o have an i n f l u e n c e ?

A. I t h i n k p r o b a b l y t h i s n o t a t i o n i s more i n t e r e s t -

i n g h e r e , . ,here i t s a y s " O f f e r hi m a r e t a i n e r . "

MR. HOROWITZ: A l l r i g h t , s i r , j u s t h.,o o r t h r e e

more q u e s t i o n s f rom Mr . H e c h t .

BY MR. HECHT:

~ Aside f rom Mr . O ' B r i e n ' s r e c e i p t o f income from

t h e Hughes Tool Company, were you aware t h a t a f t e r t h e '6 8

campa ign he had t ake n employment as an o f f i c e r i n a Wal l

S t r e e t b ro k e ra ge f i r m ?

k No , I r e a l l y w a s n ' t , n o t u n t i l i t wa s b r ough t t o

my a t t e n t i o n i n t h i s i n v e s t i g a t i o n .

~ Were you aware t h a t , jumping ahead i n t i m e , n o t

t h e summer o f '72 b u t i n t h e s p r i n g o f 1973, t h a t Mr.

O ' B r i e n was a u d i t e d , o r an a u d i t was begun as t o t h e h a n d l i n g

o f some s t o c k s t h a t he had owned i n t h a t b r o k e r a g e f i rm t h a t

he had been o f f i c e r o f and t h a t he had t a ken a l o s s on t h o s e

s t o c k s ?

k No . I am l e a r n i n g t h a t , I t h i n k , f o r t h e f i r s t

t i m e r i g h t nm.,.

A l l t h a t I am a\-lare o f i s t h a t I u nde r s tood f rom

t h e p a p e r s t h a t y ou have p r o v i d e d s o r r y, t h a t we have p r o -

v i d e d you and you have p r o v i d e d me, t h a t O ' B r i e n a f t e r t h e ' 6

campaign , . ,anted employment .

He w e n t w i t h a b r o k e r a g e f i rm . Th e b r o k e r a g e



45 21 4

1f i r m w e n t b r o k e and t h a t a f t e r t h a t h e w e n t w i t h Hugh e s , e v e n

2 t h o u g h Hughes , I t h i n k , h ad o f f e r e d him a r a t h e r good jo b

3b e f o r e h e w e n t w i t h t h e b r o k e r a g e f i r m . He t h e n d e c i d e d t o

4 go w i t h t h e Hughes f i r m , which p r o v e d t o be a v e r y good

5 c h o i c e f o r him.

6 Q. NOw, as t o t h e r e c e i p t o f f u n d s by Mr. O ' B r i e n

7 from t h e Hughes Tool Compan y o r t h e s t o c k l o s s i s s u e o r an y

8 o t h e r i s s u e s on Mr. O ' B r i e n ' s r e t u r n s , d i d you h a v e any

9 c o n v e r s a t i o n s d i r e c t l y w i t h Mr. S h u l t z , who, d u r i n g t h e

10 r e l e v a n t p e r i o d o f t i m e , was S e c r e t a r y o f t h e Tr e a s u r y ?

11 A. I h a v e no r e c o l l e c t i o n o f any s u c h c o n v e r s a t i o n s .

12 . I d o n ' t b e l i e v e Mr . S h u l t z would b r i n g s u c h t e c h n i c a l , and

13 what t o me would be p i c a y u n e , m a t t e r s t o my a t t e n t i o n . I

14 b e l i e v e t h a t a l l t h a t would b e b r o u g h t t o my a t t e n t i on b y

15 Mr . S h u l t z o r M r . Ehr l i chrnan , whoever was f a m i l i a r \v i th t h i s ,

]( j t h e b i g i s s u e , w h e t h e r o r n o t Mr . 0 ' B r i e n was o r was n o t

17 v u l n e r a b l e t o a m a j o r income t a x v i o l a t i o n . I f h e w a s , I

18 w a n t e d t o know.

IH Q Did you h a v e o c c a s i o n t o d i s c u s s t h a t q u e s t i o n

20 d i r e c t l y w i t h Mr. S h u l t z t h a t you r e c a l l ?

21 A. No , n o t w i t h Mr . S h u l t z t h a t I can r e c a l l .

22 Q. Did you h a v e o c c a s i o n t o d i s c u s s t h a t m a t t e r w i t ~

23 t h e t h e n C o m m i s s i o n e r o f t h e I n t e r n a l Revenue S e r v i c e ,

24 J o h n n i e Wa l t a r s ?

25 A. Not t h a t I can r e c a l l . I d o n ' t t h i n k I saw him

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46 21 5

1a t a l l .

2 MR. HECHT: I t h i n k t h a t c o ve r s ou r q u e s t i o n s , b u t

3 we a r e going t o t ake a s h o r t r e c e s s t o i n q u i r e o f t h e r e p r e -

4 s e n t a t i v e s o f th e Grand Ju ry w he t he r they have an y f u r t h e r

5 q u e s t i o n s .

6 THE ~ H T N E S S :I should have t a l k e d t o Mr. Wa l t e r s ,

7 I gues s .

8 (Sho r t r e c e s s . )

9MR . HOROWITZ: S i r , we have no f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s

10 f o r you.

11 Thank you.

12 . THE ~ H T N E S S :L e t me s a y, Mr. Horm·1i t z , and Mr. - -

13 MR. HECHT: Hecht .

14 THE WITNESS: I t hough t i t was . H - e - c - -

15 MR. HECHT: - - h - t .

Hi THE WITNESS: I t hough t s o .

17 T h a t i s th e s t o r e i n Washington?

18 MR. HECHT: Yes , s i r . No r e l a t i o n .

HI THE WITNESS: Do you have a p a r t

20 MR. HECHT: Unfo r tuna t e ly n o t .

21 THE WITNESS: They do w e l l , I t h i n k . We bough t

22 a d in ing room s e t t h e r e once .

2 ~ I d i d w a n t t o s ay f o r t h e r e c o r d , and p a r t i c u l a r l y

24 t o Mr. Horm·l i tz an d Mr . H e c h t , I know you have been l i v i n g

2 ~ wi th t h i s O'Br i en i n v e s t i g a t i o n and you have gone t h rough a

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47 21 6

1l o t o f work t o p r e p a r e t h e s e q u e s t i o n s and you have p r o b a b l y

2

b e e n somewhat , p e r h a p s , d i s a p p o i n t e d t h a t some o f my a n s w e r s3

h a v e b e e n , , . . ,e l l , t o p u t i t m i l d l y , r a t h e r t e s t y , which i s4

n o t my u s u a l wa y o f t r y i n g t o answer q u e s t i ~ n si n w h a t i s

5b a s i c a l l y a l e g a l fo rum.

6But I t h i n k t h a t i t i s t i m e , and p e r h a p s t h e

7S p e c i a l P r o s e c u t o r , When h e f i l e s h i s f i n a l r e p o r t , w i l l h a v e

8one p a r a g r a p h i n f o r h i s t o r y , i t i s t i m e f o r u s t o r e c o g n i z e

9t h a t i n p o l i t i c s i n Amer ica , a nd t h i s i s n o t e x c u s a b l e , b u t

10i t does e x p l a i n i t t o an e x t e n t , p a r t i c u l a r l y where t h e

11h i g h e s t o f f i c e i n t h e l a n d i s i n v o l v e d , an d e v e n i n some

12i n s t a n c e s where campa igns f o r g o v e r n o r i n m a j o r s t a t e s o r

13s e n a t o r s a r e i n v o l v e d , t h a t i n p o l i t i c s some p r e t t y rough

14t a c t i c s a r e u s e d . We d e p l o r e them a l l .

15 I am v e r y p r o u d o f t h e f a c t t h a t as a r e s u l t o f

]( ;my o r d e r s , and I gave them d i r e c t l y , t h a t n e v e r t o my

17 knowle dge was anybody i n my campa ign r e s p o n s i b l e f o r h e c k l i n g

18 Mr. r-1cGovern o r s h o u t i n g him down. Somet imes h e was h e c k l e d ,

1!ln o t much. I t o l d them n o t t o do i t .

20 NOw, a c t u a l l y my d e c i s i o n was n o t a l l t h a t

21 a l t r u i s t i c , t o be q u i t e h o n e s t . My d e c i s i o n was b a s e d on

22 t h e f a c t t h a t I d i d n I t t h i n k i t would do an y good . Why

23 m a r t y r t h ~ p o o r f e l l o w ? He was h a v i n g enough t r o u b l e .

M An d y e t , t h e r e wa s n o t an a p p e a r a n c e I made i n

25 t h e campaign , n o t one i n which n o t o n l y we were t h e s u b j e c t

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o f v o i c e h e c k l i n g t h r o u g h l o u d s p e a k e r s and t h e r e s t . T h a t

i s \vhy I g o t al i t t l e

h o a r s e , even though I d i d n ' t make many

s p e e c h e s b u t a l s o o f v i o l e n c e and t h r e a t s o f v i o l e n c e ,

v i o l e n c e i n San F r a n c i s c o , f o r example , wh i c h I am s u r e y o u

have i n v e s t i g a t e d o r w i l l . And i f y ou a r e g o i n g b a c k a f e w

y e a r s , you can p i c k up t h e v i o l e n c e i n San J o s e when a

d i r e c t a s s a u l t was made on o u r c a r , and so f o r t h .

What I am p o i n t i n g o u t h e r e i s n o t t h a t o u r

campaign was p u r e ; w h a t I am p o i n t i n g o u t a l s o i s n o t t h a t

t h e i r s was a l l t h a t b a d , b u t w h a t I am s a y i n g i s t h a t h a v i n g

been i n p o l i t i c s f o r t h e l a s t t w e n t y - f i v e y e a r s , t h a t p o l i t i c

i s a r o u g h game, and i n 1952 , as I s a i d , I wa s s u b j e c t e d

t o some o f t h e m o s t b r u t a l a s s a u l t s , n o t on l y by t h e IR S an d

p o l i t i c a l opp o nen t s , b u t p a r t i c u l a r l y by some e l e m e n t s o f

t h e p r e s s .

Now, I have g i v e n o u t some t o o , t o be p e r f e c t l y

h o n e s t I am sp eak ing no w o f s p e e c h e s and t h a t s o r t o f

t h i n g .

B ut i n 1 9 6 2 , t h e same t h i n g , where t h e A d m i n i s t r a -

t i o n i n power, and t h ey were p r e t t y s m a r t , I g u e s s , r a t h e r

t h a n u s i n g a group o f a m a t e u r NatE: rga te b u g g 1 e r s - - b u r g l a r s

- - w e l l , t h e y were b u n g l e r s - - u s e d t h e FBI, u s e d t h e IRS,

and u s e d i t d i r e c t l y by t h e i r own o r d e r s a g a i n s t , i n one

i n s t a n c e , a man wh o had been Vice P r e s i d e n t o f t h e U n i t e d

S t a t e s , r u n n i n g f o r Governor, and i n a n o t h e r i n s t a n c e a man



21 8

491

running f o r P r e s i d e n t o f t h e u n i t e d S t a t e s , t h e FBI , a cc o r d -

2

in g t o i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t we hav e , were a t l e a s t o r d e r e d t o ,

and whe the r t h e y d i d i t o r n o t , I c a n ' t s a y, t o bug t h e

4p l ane o f t h e P r e s i d e n t i a l c a n d i d a t e .

5What I am s imply say ing i s t h a t h e r e we must b e

6u n d e r no i l l u s i o n s a b o u t what happens i n p o l i t i c s i n

7Amer ica . I d o n ' t condone i t .

8 I se e memoranda which I have long f o r g o t t e n .

9 What r e a l l y c o un t s i n th e long ru n i s what happens , and when

10 I see t h i s long l i s t - - t h i s i s w h a t they c a l l t h e enemy

11l i s t - - what happened? N o t h i n g .

12 I n e v e r r e c a l l see ing any income t a x r e t u r n ; I

13 n e v e r r e c a l l s e e i n g any r e s u l t o f any o f t h i s d o n e . What

14 happened t o Mr. O ' B r i e n ' s ca s e? N o t h i n g .

15 A c u r s o r y, p l e a s a n t i n t e r v i e w w i t h t h e IRS. ~ a t

Iii i s one t h i n g . A l l t h a t I say i s t h a t t h e S p e c i a l P r o s e c u t o r ,

17 you had y o u r j o b , you had t o do i t , we made o u r m i s t a k e s ,

18 we have t o pay f o r them.

II I A l l have p a i d a heavy p r i c e . I am p a y i n g m i n e ,

20 b u t if t h e r e i s one t h i n g I am g o i n g t o do t o t h e day I d i e ,

21 i t i s g o i n g t o b e t o i n s i s t t o th e b e s t o f my a b i l i tythat

22 w h e t h e r i t i s t h e c a se o f p o l i t i c a l l e a d e r s o r t h e p r e s s ,

23 i n c l u d i n g t h e t e l e v i s i o n p e o p l e , o r edu c a t i on l e a d e r s , t h a t

M i t i s t i m e where e t h i cs a r e c o n c e r n e d i n p o l i t i c s , n o t t o

25 c l ean up on e s i d e and t h e n t u r n y o u r back and f o r g e t what


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21 9

happens on th e o t h e r s i d e .

I would say t h a t ou r campaigns i n '6 8 and i n 1972,

i n te rms o f "'That we d i d , \'lere c l e a n campaigns. I t'lould say

as f a r as t h e i r campaigns were concerned, t h e r e wa s some

v io lence , t h e r e was some rough heck l ing , bu t we took i t .

And I am conf iden t t h a t Hr. HcG overn , who I

under s t and i s a r a t h e r gen t le man, probably wouldn ' t have

approved i t , j u s t as I w o u l d n ' t have approved an y v i o l e n c e ,

b u t i t happened.

But I simply ""ant th e r eco rd t o show here t h a t

when yo u conduct t h i s ex tens ive i n v e s t i g a t i o n o f whether o r

no t Hr. Larry O'Br ien wa s being per secu ted by th e Adminis t ra-

t i o n i n pm'ler, I t h i n k , and I d o n ' t urge you t o do t h i s

because now he has a sp lend id p o s i t i o n and I th ink he i s th e

Baske tba l l Commissioner, an d he deserves i t . He d o e s n ' t

have an y money an d he has a b ig f ami ly, an d I t h ink he i s a

decent gu y a c t u a l l y, b u t he p lays p o l i t i c s tough.

But i f you were to l ook , as Bobby Baker sugges ted ,

i n t o Larry O ' B r i e n ' s a c t i v i t i e s p o l i t i c a l l y over the years ,

an d i n t o the a c t i v i t i e s o f some of the Democratic Sena to r s

an d o t h e r s , i nc lud ing some Republ icans who a re t ak ing t h i s

sanct imonious a t t i t u d e about the c l e a n l i n e s s o f t h e i r

campaigns, i f yo u vlOuld pu t them t o the same t e s t yo u have

pu t us , you would f ind t h a t we come o u t r a t h e r w e l l .

I d o n ' t say t h i s , as I say f i n a l l y , i n



22 0

51 1 j u s t i f i c a t i o n o f an y wrongdoing where i t o c c u r r e d . I d e p l o r e

2i t . I r e g r e t i t . An d I am p a y i n g a p r i c e f o r i t .

3An d a s f a r a s you gent lemen a r e c once rne d , you have

4 y o u r jo b t o do, and I r e s p e c t you f o r doing i t . F o r tw o y e a r s

5you have been on t h i s j o b ; f o r b m y e a r s , and you have been

6working v e r y, ve r y ha rd t o expose a ny t h in g t h a t we d i d t h a t

7 wa s wrong .

8And I do n o t , i n what I am w r i t i n g a t t h e p r e s e n t

9t i m e , my memoirs , which I hope w i l l come o u t b e f o r e y ou d i e

10 -o r b e f o r e I d i e , I am n o t going t o be c r i t i c a l o f t h e f a c t

11 t h a t you a r e doing t h e jo b yo u a r e h i r e d t o do .

12 B u t I am going t o come down h a r d , and y o u , I would

13 u rg e , t h i n k i n g n o t o f y o u r s e l v e s b e c a u s e a t t h e p r e s e n t t i m e ,

14 i f I cou ld g ive one l a s t b i t o f a d v i c e , t a k i n g t h e double

15 s t a n d a r d i s g o in g t o make you much more p o p u l a r wi th t h e

II i Washing ton p r e s s c o r p s , w i t h t h e Georgetown s o c i a l s e t , i f you

1'7 e v e r go t o George town, w i t h t h e power e l i t e i n t h i s c o u n t r y,

18 b u t ., on t h e o t h e r hand, t h i n k o f y o u r c h i l d r e n t h e y a r e

19 going t o judge you i n t h e p a g e s o f h i s t o r y and a s t h e y l o o k

20 a t y o u , t h e y a r e going t o s a y , w e l l , now, you d id a p r e t t y

21 good jo b on e way, b u t d id t hey ove r lo o k o t h e r t h i n g s b e c 'a u s e

22 t h e y b e l i e v e d t h i n g s .

23 I mean I am n o t unaware o f t h e f a c t t h a t t h e g r e a t

M m a j o r i t y o f t h e pe o p l e working i n t h e S p e c i a l P r o s e c u t o r ' s

25 O f f i c e d i d n o t s u p p o r t me f o r P r e s i d e n t . A f t e r a l l , t h e r e

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a r e many m i l l i o n s o f p eop l e wh o d i d n ' t - - a b o u t t h i r t y -

e i g h t p e r c e n t o f t h e p e o p l e i n t h e c o u n t r y. I r e s p e c t

t hose Who d i d n ' t , j u s t as I am t h a b k f u l f o r t h o s e wh o d i d

s u p p o r t me.

I am n o t unaware o f t h e f a c t , t o o , t h a t t h e r e f o r e

you would have a m o t i v e t o go a f t e r me and my a s s o c i a t e s

and t o i g n o r e o t h e r s , b u t I a l s o sa y I j u s t t r u s t i n t h e

f u t u r ~a s you go o n , a f t e r you l e ave t h e s e p o s i t i o n s , have

a s i n g l e s t a n d a r d . T h a t i s what t h e c o u n t r y n e e d s .

I am s o r r y t o t a k e s o much t i m e .

HR. RUTH: I wonder i f we co u ld r e c e s s a second

b e c a u s e t h e P r o s e c u t o r s a r e n o t a l lowed t o r e s p o n d t o t h e

c h a rg e o f be ing p a r t i s a n ; we a r e n o t going t o r e spond , and

we w i l l p i c k up i n t h e a r e a o f q u e s t i o n i n g h a v i n g t o do

wi th t h e w i r e t a p s i n a c o u p l e o f m in u te s .

THE WITNESS: S o r r y, I i n t ended no p e r s o n a l

r e f l e c t i o n .

(Sh o r t r e c e s s . )



1 22 2BY MR. HOROWITZ:

2Q

S i r , t h e n e x t a r e a o f i n q u i r y b e i n g p u r s u e d by t h e3

Grand J u r y r e l a t e s t o t h e s o - c a l l e d N a t i o n a l S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l4

s u r v e i l l a n c e p r o j e c t and on t h a t I w i l l be a s k i n g you some

5q u e s t i o n s and Mr. F r a n k M a r t i n , who i s t o my r i g h t , w i l l b e

6a s k i n g you some q u e s t i o n s .

7A R i g h t .

8Q More s p e c i f i c a l l y , i f I m i g h t i n d i c a t e t o you , t h e

9Grand J u r y ' s i n v e s t i g a t i o n i n s o f a r a s t h i s e l e c t r o n i c s u r -

10v e i l l a n c e p r o j e c t i s c o n c e r n e d i s f o c u s e d upon two p r i m a r y i n -

11 c i d e n t s : F i r s t , t h e c i r c u m s t a n c e s i n t h e summer and e a r l y

12 . f a l l o f 1971 when t h e w i r e t a p p r o j e c t i t s e l f had e n d e d , and

13 t h e r e c o r d s o f t h e w i r e t a p p r o j e c t were removed u l t i m a t e l y

14 f rom th e FB I t o t h e Whi te House , so t h e y a r e f o c u s e d on t h a t

15 a s one l e g o f t h e i r i n q u i r y , a n d , s e c o n d , t h e y a r e f o c u s e d upon

16 a l l e g a t i o n s t h a t M r. L. P a t r i c k G r a y, i n F e b r u a r y and March o f

17 1 9 7 3 , d u r i n g h i s c o n f i r m a t i o n h e a r i n g s , c o m m i t t e d p e r j u r y " ' h i l e

18 . t e s t i f y i n g a b o u t t h e e l e c t r o n i c s u r v e i l l a n c e p r o j e c t .

In A B ut you h a v e n ' t d e c i d e d t h a t y e t .

20 Q Upon a l l e g a t i o n s , a s I s a i d .

21 Q B e f o r e we g e t i n t o remova l o f t h e r e c o r d s , s i r , j u s t

22 so t h a t i t i s c l e a r when we a r e r e f e r r i n g t o t h e e l e c t r o n i c

s u r v e i l l a n c e p r o j e c t , we a r e r e f e r r i n g t o t h e p r o j e c t which3

24 m b r a c e d , I t h i n k , a t o t a l o f 17 w i r e t a p s o f v a r i o u s r e p o r t e b s

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a b o u t May o f 1969 , and t e r m i n a t e d i n and a b o u t F e b r u a r y o f

1971 .

Now b e f o r e we g e t r i g h t i n t o t h e remova l c i r c u m -

s t a n c e s , which were i n t h e summer o f ' 7 1 , d u r i n g t h e p r o j e c t

i t s e l f , c an you t e l l u s w h e t h e r you p e r s o n a l l y r e c e i v e d t h e

summary l e t t e r s which Mr . Hoover wr o te , which summarized t h e

i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t was coming o f f t h e s e w i r e t a p s ?I

A I t h i n k I t e s t i f i e d y e s t e r d a y t h a t t h e f i r s t summa: t-

l e t t e r t h a t I r e c e i v e d , and i t i s t h e on l y one t h a t I ca n r e -

c a l l r e c e i v i n g , wa s one w i t h i n tw o o r t h r e e d a y s a f t e r I was

i n a u g u r a t e d p r e s i d e n t i n 1969. I t was a r e p o r t on Mr . Henr y

Brandon , t h e c o r r e s pond en t o f t h e London Times , an d I , be ing

ne w a t t h e j o b , wondered what i t was a l l a b o u t .

I asked Mr. Hoover, when we had o u r f i r s t m e e t i n g ,

which was s h o r t l y t h e r e a f t e r w a r d s p e r h a p s w i t h i n a week

o r so - - what t h i s wa s a l l a b ou t .

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we do o t h e r t a p s , a s w e l l , where we t h i n k t h e n a t i o n a l s e c u r i t y!

i s i n v o l v e d , and he s a i d - - he p o i n t e d o u t t h e n - - he s a i d

" I have t o have a d i r e c t r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h you and t h e A t t o r n y

G e n e r a l on t h e s e b e c a u s e t h e s e c an o n l y be i n s t i t u t e d b y and

q.rp,roved hv t h e A t t o r n e y G e n e r a l . "

Q A l l r i g h t , s i r , b u t commencing w i t h what I have

i d e n t i f i e d a s t h e p r o j e c t f o r p u r p o s e s o f o u r q u e s t i o n i n g ,

which was May o f ' 6 9 , p u t t i n g t o t h e s i d e f o r t h e moment t h e



224

1r e f e r e n c e which you made, a l t ho u g h n o t i g n o r i n g i t - -

2A But you u nde r s t a nd th e Brandon name was on t h a t l i s t

3Q T h a t i s r i g h t , he was on t h a t l i s t .

4A My p o i n t i s i t was t h e r e , i t h a s been t h e r e fo r

5y e a r s , long b e f o r e we came i n .

6Q But du r ing t h e p r o j e c t i t s e l f , from May o f '6 9 t o

7 F e b r u a r y o f ' 7 1 , if I can j u s t f o c u s b r i e f l y upon t h a t pe r i o d

8 from May o f '69 t o May o f ' 7 0 , th e f i r s t h a l f o f t h a t p e r i o d ,

9 l e t t e r s were add re s s e d by Mr. Hoover i n d u p l i c a t e o r i g i n a l

10 form, one t o D r. K i s s i n g e r and one t o Mr . E h r l i c h m a n . Now my

11 q u e s t i o n a t t h i s p o i n t , b r i e f l y and l i m i t e d , i s d i d you r e -

12 ce ive t hose l e t t e r s , d id Mr. Ehr l ichman b r i n g t h o se l e t t e r s

13 i n t o you o r r o u t e them t o you? Do y ou remember t h a t ?

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A I d o n ' t r e c a l l t h a t he d i d . I f he d i d , I would ,

o f c o u r s e , have a p p r o v e d them.

Q Did h e , dur ing t h a t p e r i o d , r o u t e h i s own memoranda

t o t h e P r e s i d e n t , which would rev iew th e l e t t e r s t h a t he had

r e c e i v e d from Mr . Hoover ? Do yo u remember t h a t ?

A You mean rev iew t h e f r u i t s o f th e t aps?

Q T h a t i s r i g h t .

A Yes , I d o n ' t r e c a l l t h a t he d i d . I t i s p o s s i b l e

t h a t he d i d .

Q The r e a s on I am r a i s i n g t h e s e q u e s t i o n s aga in i s

b e c a u s e we a r e i n t e r e s t e d i n w h a t r e c o r d s t h e r e were t h a t

r e l a t e t o t h e summer o f ' 7 1 .



225

A S u r e . L e t me p o i n t o u t , so t h e Grand J u r o r s would

n o t t h i n k t h a t I wa s b e i n g d e r e l i c t i n my d u t i e s , when I sa w

t h i s Brandon r e p o r t , i t wa s such a bunch o f g a r b a g e andI

i r r e l e v a n t t h ~ t I t o l d K i s s i n g e r , I b e l i e v e , a t t h e t i m e I :

s a i d , " I d o n ' t want t o s ee an y o f t h i s c r a p . " Pardon t h e

e x p r e s s i o n , b u t t h a t i s what I t h o u g h t i t was . I s a i d , "Have

i t e v a l u a t e d and i f t h e r e i s a n y t h i n g we need t o know i n -

v o l v i n g o u r n a t i o n a l s e c u r i t y , l e t me know, b u t I d o n ' t want

9 t o s ee any FB I ra w f i l e s o r FBI r e p o r t s . T h a t wa s my p o l i c y .

10 But I c a n n 6 t s a y f o r s u r e t h a t somet ime a c r o s s my desk o ne

o f t h e s e summary r e p o r t s , yo u know, w i t h t h e u s u a l l a n g u a g e ,

"a h i g h l y s e n s i t i v e s o u r c e h a s i n f o r m e d u s t h a t " , and so on ,

13 may have been a w i r e t a p s o u r c e .

I must a l s o p o i n t o u t , b e c a u s e I t h i n k c o u n s e l shou d

t h a t Mr . Hoover u s e d t h a t " h i g h l y s e n s i t i v e s o u r c e " f o r I5 know,

] l j one o f h i s o t h e r p r o j e c t s . As you know, he had no c o n -

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Mr . Hoover, b e c a u s e I remember s e e i n g t h a t r e p o r t , Mr . Hoover2:) ,I used t o u se t h e same, t h a t p h r a s e t h a t he used when I sa w

24 \1.\ t h e Brandon r e p o r t , "a h i g h l y s e n s i t i v e sou r ce known t o t h i s

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22 6

1t h i n g , so t h a t i s wh y I c a n ' t i d e n t i f y w h e t h e r i t was a w i r e

2

t a p s o u r c e o r t h a t s o u r c e o r s o m e t h i n g e l s e .3

Q I t h i n k , s i r , t h a t you have a n s w e r e d t h e n e x t l i mi t e

4q u e s t i o n I was g o i n g t o p u t t o y o u , \vhich v>las d u r i n g t h e s e c o n

5h a l f o f t h a t w i r e t a p p r o j e c t , which would have b e e n f rom Ha y

6'70 u n t i l F e b r u a r y ' 7 1 , t h e l e t t e r s f rom H r. Hoover which

7s u n ~ a r i z e dt h i s w i r e t a p b u s i n e s s , an d you have a c c u r a t e l y

8d e s c r i b e d t h e wa y t h e y s t a r t e d , t h e y were n o t s e n t i n d u a l

9o r i g i n a l s . They w e r e , d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d o f t i m e , d i r e c t e d

10t o y o u , b u t s e n t t o M r. Haldeman , and my n e x t q u e s t i o n was

11 vlhe ther M r. Haldeman would i n t h e r e g u l a r c o u r s e s e n d t h o s e

12 , i n t o you o r make c o p i e s f o r you?

13 A No. On t h e c o n t r a r y . Th e r e a s o n t h a t d ev e l o ped

14 ' va s t h a t Mr . Hoover d i d n o t want t o have so much p r o l i f e r a t i o n

15 o f h i s r e p o r t s . He came t o be v e r y s u s p i c i o u s i n h i s l a t e r I]( j y e a r s o f many p e o p l e i n t h e b u r e a u c r a c y, i n c l u d i n g p e o p l e

17 i n t h e Whi te House , and he d i d have c o n f i d e n c e i n Haldeman

and he a s k e d me on one o c c a s i o n if he c o u l d j u s t have on e

p e r s o n t h a t he c o u l d s e n d t h i s s t u f f t o . I s a i d , " F i n e , s e n d

20 them t o Haldeman . U

21 Now I c a n n o t r e c a l l Haldeman d i s c u s s i n g a n y t h i n g

22 from some o f t h e s e r e p o r t s . I t i s v e r y p o s s i b l e t h a t he d i d .

24

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I f i t i n v o l v e d a n a t i o n a l s e c u r i t y m a t t e r o f i m p o r t a n c e , he

"lTOuld h a v e , b u t , a s you w i l l n o t e , Mr . H o r o w i t z , b e c a u s e you

have l i v e d w i t h t h i s r e c o r d f o r two y e a r s and I have seen i t fo



227

1a c o u p l e o f weeks , b u t , a s you w i l l n o t e , I i n one o f t h e

2

t a p e s p o i n t o u t t h a t I found t h a t t h e s e wire t a p s were very3

unp roduc t i ve , which means t h a t no th i n g had come i n t o me t h a t

4m e a n t a n y t h i n g .

5Q Now, f i n a l l y , s i r , b e f o r e we g e t to t h e surruner o f

6' 7 1 , th e w i r e t a p p r o j e c t p e r se ended i n F e b r u a r y o f '71 and

7t h e r e i s a r e f e r e n c e which you t a k e i n a c o n v e r s a t i o n much

8l a t e r down t h e r oa d , i n A p r i l o f 1973 , w i t h Mr. Henry P e t e r s e n

9i n which you r e f e r t o a - q u o t e - h u l l a b a l o o c aus ing t he en d

10o f t h i s wire t a p p r o j e c t . "

11 Now, c an you t e l l us wha t you remember a b o u t how

12 ' t h e o r \vhat b r o u g h t t h e wi r e t a p p r o j e c t t o an end i n F eb rua ry

13 o f ' 7 1 ?

14 A Well , I know t h e r e f e r e n c e to t h e h u l l a b a l o o wa s t h a

15 ou r p r e s s o f f i c e and I i n p r e s s c o n f e r e n c e s , a s w e l l , a s I

]( i r e c a l l , were c a t c h i n g a l o t o f h e a t o r t a k i n g a l o t o f h e a t be

17 c a u s e o f a l l e g e d w i r e t a p i n g o f newsmen. T h a t wa s t h e i r c o n -

18 c e r n . I d o n ' t b e l i e v e t h e y ment ioned t h e N a t i o n a l S e c u r i t y

19 p e o p l e . They may n o t have known t h a t t h e y were b e i n g t apped .

20 I know, t o o , t h a t Mr. Hoover was t a k i n g a l o t o f

21 h e a t on t h i s s c o r e , and h e , i n h i s l a t e r y e a r s , became very

22 s e n s i t i ve a b o u t any t h i n g t h a t happened i n th e p r e s s .

21 By " hu l l a b a l o o" I m e a n t , i n o t h e r "lOrds, th e

24 h u l l a b a l o o \ve were c a t c h i n g from t h e p r e s s .

Q A l l r i g h t , s i r . Now we a r e going t o s h i f t t imewise

HOOVER REPORTING CO me . :320 Massachus etts Avenue , NL \1\

Washington , DC. 20002(202) 546.6666



22 8

1 t o a f t e r t h e p r o j e c t had t e r m i n a t e d i n F e b r u a r y o f ' 7 1 , t o

2 June o f ' 7 1 , and t o t h e a l l e g a t i o n s which r e l a t e t o t h e remova

3 o f t h e s e r e c o r d s and t h e i r u l t i m a t e s t o r a g e i n t h e Whi t e Ho u se

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t o th e s o - c a l l e d P e n t a g o n Pa pe r s c a s e and Mr . Mar t i n \ v i l l a s k

you t h o s e q u e s t i o n s .

A Okay.

BY MR . MARTIN:

Q I wo u l d l i k e t o b eg i n wi t h some q u e s t i o n s concern- '

i n g t h e t ime p e r i o d imm ed i a t e l y f o l l o w i n g t h e p u b l i c a t i o n

o f t h e P e n t a g o n P a p e r s and a l t h o u g h I r e a l i z e t he r e may have

b e e n many c o n c e r n s t h a t you would have had wi t h t h a t e v e n t , t o

f o c u s i n i n p a r t i c u l a r as t o y o u r b e i n g c o n c e r n e d o r y o u r

A d m i n i s t r a t i o n b e i n g c o n c e r n e d a b o u t w h a t e x a c t l y t h e s e p a p e r s

w e r e , who ha d p r e p a r e d t h em , where co p i e s w e r e , who h ad a c c e s s

t o t h e s e p a p e r s and wh e t h e r o r n o t y ou r e c a l l l e a r n i n g v e r y

e a r l y on t h a t t h e s e pape r s had been p r e p a r e d , i n p a r t , by

Mr . H a l p e r i n , who had worked f o r D r. Ki s s i n g e r e a r l y i n y o u r

A d m i n i s t r a t i o n .

A We l l , H r. Ma r t i n , I c a n ' t r e c a l l sp e c i f i c a l l y Mr.

Ha l p e r i n ' s name c om i n g up i n c o n n e c t i o n w i t h h a v i n g p r e p a r e d

t h e P e n t a g o n P a p e r s a s o f t h a t t i m e . As o f a l a t e r t ime I

had a s u s p i c i o n t h a t t h a t m i g h t have b e e n t h e c a s e .

What I s h o u l d s a y i s t h a t t h e r e a s o n , an d I t h i n k

you w a n t t o know, t h e r e a s o n t h a t \ve were c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e

Pentagon P a p e r s was , and t h e i r r e l e a s e , wa s t h a t , f i r s t , a l o t



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22 9

o f h i g h l y c l a s s i f i e d m a t e r i a l was c o n t a i n e d i n i t . Much o f

i t was u n i m p o r t a n t . I t c o u l d have b e e n r e l e a s e d w i t h o u t any

damage t o t h e n a t i o n a l s e c u r i t y , b u t , a s I p o i n t e d o u t y e s t e r -

d a y, i t t a k e s o n l y tw o o r t h r e e words f o r an e x p e r t t o b r e a k

a c o d e ; i t t a k e s o n l y tw o o r t h r e e r e f e r e n c e s f o r a n i n -

d i v i d u a l wh o i s s e r v i n g t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s a b r o a d i n t h e CIA

o r FB I o r w h a t have y o u , o r even i n F o r e i g n S e r v i c e , f o r h i s

w i f e t o become e n d a n g e r e d i f i t i s known he i s a c t i n g i n t h i s

way, an d t h e r e l e a s e o f t h e P e n t a g o n P a p e r s t h e r e b y j e o p a r d i z e

t h e l i f e o f Amer icans wh o m i g h t be e n g a g e d i n s u c h a c t i v i t i e s .

I t a l s o made t h e i r r e l e a s e , r a i s e d a g r a v e q u e s t i o n

i n t h e minds o f f o r e i g n l e a d e r s wh o came t o s e e me i n g r e a t

numbers , and I \>lent t o s ee them i n c o n s i d e r a b l e numbers - -

f o r e i g n l e a d e r s - - g r a v e q u e s t i o n s a s t o t h e c o n f i d e n t i a l i t y

o f t h e d i s c u s s i o n s we were h a v i n g a n d t h a t c o n f i d e n t i a l i t y ,

o f c o u r s e , I c o n s i d e r e d and t h e y c o n s i d e r e d t o be a b s o l u t e l y

e s s e n t i a l i f we were t o r e a c h a g r e e m e n t on s e n s i t i v e m a t t e r s .

An d t h e r e l e a s e o f t h e P e n t a g o n Pa pe r s a l s o r a i s e d a s e r i o u s

q u e s t i o n a s t o what we w i t h i n t h e c l o s e c i r c l e s i n t h e Wh i t e

House and o u r d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h t h o s e f rom t h e J o i n t C h i e f s

o f S t a f f a nd t h e S t a t e D e p a r t m e n t c o u l d d i s c u s s i n c o n f i d e n c e

b e c a u s e we h ad a number o f i n i t i a t i v e s a t t h a t t i m e b e g i n n i n g ,

t h e S o v i e t i n i t i a t i v e , t h e China i n i t i a t i v e , t h e i n i t i a t i v e

w i t h r e g a r d t o Vi e t n a m , and a l s o w i t h r e g a r d t o a c e a s e f i r e

i n t h e m i d - E a s t .



23 0

1 NOw, and we w i l l come r i g h t down t o y o u r q u e s t i o n ,

2 w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e Pentagon P a p e r s , i r o n i c a l l y , t h e r e were

3 some members o f my s t a f f , p a r t i c u l a r l y on t h e p u b l i c r e l a t i o n s

4 s i d e , t h a t s a i d , l o o k , t h i s i s no s k i n o f f o u r b a c k . Th e

5 Pentagon P a p e r s , a s you know, d id n o t i nvo lve w h a t hap pe ned

6 du r ing t h i s A d m i n i s t r a t i o n ; t h e y on ly i nvo lve d what had happen

7 du r ing t h e Johnson A d m i n i s t r a t i o n and t h e Kennedy A&min i s t r a t i

8 th e h i s t o r y o f t h e

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QS i r , I

A L e t me f i n i s h my a n s w e r. - - t h e h i s t o r y o f t h e war

a d m i n i s t r a t i o n , and so f a r a s we were c o n c e r n e d , from a

p o l i t i c a l s t a n d p o i n t i t would have been much t o o u r a d v a n t a g e

t o have t h e Pentagon P a p e r s r e v e a l e d , t o th row o f f , i f we

\vanted t o , on p r e v i o us p r e s i d e n t s , b u t i n my view, where

American l i v e s a r e i n vo l ved , where th e U n i t e d S t a t e s i s i n -

v o l v e d i n a c o n f l i c t , even though i t i s one t h a t many peop l e

d i s app roved o f , t h e r e i s o n l y one P r e s i d e n t - - I d o n ' t c a r e

w h e t h e r he i s a Democra t o r R e p u b l i c a n , wh e t h e r he i s f o r me

o r a g a i n s t me, b u t I s a i d , "As f a r a s t h e s e pap e r s a r e c o n -

c e r n e d , we have t o p r o t e c t t h e c o n f i d e n t i a l i t y o f p r e s i d e n t i a l

c o m m u n i c a t i o n s , a n d un l e s s we s t a n d h e re t h e r e i s n o t g o i n g t o

be any chance f o r n o t o n l y t h i s P r e s i d e n t , b u t f u t u r e

p r e s i d e n t s , t o be a b l e t o c o n d u c t t h e i r f o r e i g n p o l i c y

s u c c e s s f u l l y . "

T h a t i s th e background wi th r e s pe c t t o t h e Pe n t a gon



23 1

1 P a p e r s .

2 Now i f you w i l l come t o t h e p r e c i s e q u e s t i o n , I

3 w i l l answer t h e p r e c i s e q u e s t i o n .

4 Q Th e p r e c i s e q u e s t i o n , and r e a l i z i n g t h e r e were many

5 c o n c e r n s o f g r e a t i m p o r t a n c e t h a t yo u would have had

6 A Concerns n o t i nvo l v i n g o u r A d m i n i s t r a t i o n .

7 Q Not i nv o lv i ng y o u r A d m i n i s t r a t i o n a nd i n v o l v i n g

8 f o r e i g n p o l i c y . P u t t i n g t h a t a s i d e , w h e t h e r yo u l e a r n e d o r

9

10

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12 .

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1>-,ere i n f o r m e d o r became aware t h a t Mr. H al p e r in wa s one o f

th e p e o p l e p r i n c i p a l l y r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e p r e p a r a t i o n o f

t h i s s tudy and t h a t Mr . H a lp e r i n wa s one o f t h e p e o p l e who

had g iven a c c e s s t o t h a t s t udy t o H r. E l l s b e r g , who,

o b v i o u s l y, wa s th e p e r s o n who d i d l e a k t h e p a p e r s . Do you

r e c a l l b e i n g i n f o r m e d o f t h a t ?

A I c a n ' t r e c a l l b e i n g s p e c i f i c a l l y in formed t h a t

H r. Halpe r in gave acc e s s t o th e p ape r s t o Mr . E l l s b e r g . I c a n

o n l y be in formed - - I can o n l y t e l l you t h a t th e s u s p i c i o n s

a s to who m i g h t have g i v e n a c c e s s t o E l l s berg were rampant

an d H a l p e r i n ' s name was among many o t h e r s t h a t were i n c l u d e d .

Q Given y o u r s t a t emen t t h a t t h e s u s p i c i o n f o c u s e d

on one , as y ou s a y, o f many p eop l e , b u t one o f them was Mr.

Halpe r i n , and I ask w h e t h e r you r e c a l l d i r e c t i n g o r be ing

a1>-Tare t h a t anyone i n th e Whi te House o r e l s e w h e r e wa s r ev i ewin

t h e s e wire t a p r e c o r d s t h a t had been on f o r some 21 months on

Mr . Halpe r in t o se e w h e t h e r t h e r e would be any i n f o r m a t i o n



232

1t h e r e t h a t m i g h t be h e l p f u l i n d e t e r m i n i n g w h e t h e r o r n o t

2Halpe r in had l e a k ed t h e s e documents o r had been i nvo lved i n

3l e a k i n g t h e s e documents?

4A A t what t ime would t h i s have been done?

5Q This , 'lOuld be done s h o r t l y a f t e r t h e pub l i c a t i o n o f

6t h e Pentagon P a p e r s . I t a p p e a r s - - I r e a l i z e t h i s i s d i f f i c u l t

7t o go back and s e p a r a t e o u t t i m e s , b u t i t a p pea r s t h a t very

8s h o r t l y a f t e r t h a t you were aware o f Mr . H a l p e r i n ' s i nvo lve -

9ment?

10 A P o t e n t i a l l y . I w a s n ' t s u r e .

11 Q But t h a t yo u would have d i r e c t e d o r a t l e a s t been

12 aware o f p e o p l e g o i n g back and c h e c k i n g th e w i r e t a p o f Mr.

13 H a l p e r i n , which had been on fo r some 21 months , and se e whethe r

14 o r no t

15 A I have no r e c o l l e c t i o n o f s ugg e s t i ng t h a t H a l p e r i n ' s

1(; w i r e t a p s , which had oc cu r r ed so many months b e f o r e , be r ev iewe

17 t o s e e i f he , 'TaS one o f t ho s e who wa s a l e a k e r . I do have

~ a r e c o l l e c t i o n t h a t D r. K i s s i n g e r t o l d me, when he s e p a r a t e d

19 ! Mr . H a l p e r i ~from h i s NSC s t a f f , t h a t he f e l t he had made a

20 mis t ake i n t a k i n g him on b e c a u s e t h e y c ons i de r e d him t o be

21 a l e a k e r . T h a t i s why t h e s u s p i c i o n wa s r a i s e d , b u t many

22 p e o p l e were l e a k e r s , so t h a t wa s no th i n g new.

23 Q Tu r n i n g now t o Mr. E l l s b e r g , i n some o f t h e i n -

24 f o r m a t i o n t h a t h a s been s u p p l i e d to us by y o u r a t t o r n e y s t h e r e

25 i s r e f e r e n c e t o Dr. K i s s i n g e r i n f o r m i n g you o f h i s p rev io us

KOOVER REPORTING CO, INC. I

320 Massachusetts Avenue , N.E.

Washington, D.C . 20002 II(202) 546·6666



233

1a s s o c i a t i o n wi th Hr . E l l s b e r g a nd o f i n f o r m i n g you t ha t r.lr .

2E l l s b e r g was somewhat u n s t a b l e and t h a t Hr . E l l s b e r g used

3d r u g s ? Do you r e c a l l b e i n g i n f o r m e d t h a t Hr . E l l s b e r g u s e d

4d r u g s ?

5A Th e f a c t t h a t H r. - - I me a n t h e c h a rg e o r t he

6a l l e g a t i o n t h a t Hr . E l l s b e r g u s e d d r u g s I have no r e c o l l e c t i o n

7o f . A l l t h a t I do r e c a l l i s t h a t D r. K i s s i n g e r p o i n t e d o u t

8t o me t h a t Hr . E l l s b e r g a p p a r e n t l y had bee n on e o f t h i s

9s t u d e n t s a nd t h e r e f o r e he knew him.

10He a l s O , a p p a r e n t l y, k n e w o f h i s r e c o r d i n Vie tnam o r

11 he had b e e n a ha,'lk a t one t i m e - - I t e s t i f i e d t o t h i s y e s t e r -

12 , day, so I w o n ' t r e p e a t i t t o d a y - - an d t h e n t u r n e d i n t o a dove

13 and t h a t h i s , du r i ng t h e t ime he vlas a hawk" a p p a r e n t l y he wa s

14 \vorking w i t h t h e JCS, and t h e n , a l s o , D r. K i s s i n g e r ' s

15 e v a l u a t i o n o f hi m a s a man and D r. K i s s i n g e r and I ha d ve ry

]( j f r a nk d i s c u s s i o n s , and I hope a l l f u t u r e p r e s i d e n t s can have

17 such d i s c u s s i o n s wi t h t h e i r to p n a t i o n a l s e c u r i t y a d v i s o r s an d

18 t h e i r s e c r e t a r i e s o f S t a t e , and t h a t wi l l o n l y happen i n t he

19 e v e n t t h a t Hr . Mi l l e r and Mr . Ma r t e n s o n a r e s u c c e s s f u l i n

20 t h e s u i t t h a t we a r e now b r i n g i n g t o be s u r e t h a t c o n f i den t i a l i

21

22

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HOOVER REPORTING CO, INC , I320 Massachusetts Avenue , N,E, '(Was hington, DC 20002 i(202) 546-6666

o f fu t u r e p r e s i d e n t s , a s we l l a s o u r own, i s p r o t e c t e d . But

D r. Ki s s i n g e r s a i d t h a t E l l s b e r g , he s a i d , b a s i c a l l y , and I

use th e t e r m , he was a ' ' n u t ~t h a t he \ ~ T a su n s t a b l e , t h e r e fo r e

u n t r u s t w o r t h y, and he d i d n ' t know w h a t he m i g h t do . He f e l t

i n o t h e r w o r d s , he had no c o n f i d e n c e i n E l l s b e r g ' s e m o t i o n a l



23 4

1s t a b i l i t y .

2Nm..r l e t me, hmvever, be s u r e t h a t I g i v e Mr.

3E l l s b e r g c r e d i t f o r \ . ,hat he a l s o h a d . He s a i d t h a t he was a

4b r i l l i a n t d o c t o r , t h a t he h ad been a v e r y good s t u d e n t , t h a t h

5 was v e r y b r i g h t , b u t t h a t he \\1o u l d become e m o t i o n a l l y i n v o l v e d

6 i n a m a t t e r and t h e n be on one s i d e a t one t i m e a n d some o t h e r

7 s i d e a t a n o t h e r t i m e .

8 As f a r a s t h e u se o f d r u g s i s c o n c e r n e d , I r e c a l l

9n e i t h e r D r. K i s s i n g e r o r anybody e l s e t e l l i n g me t h a t E l l s b e r g

10 u s e d d r u g s .

11 Q I would l i k e no w t o show you a l e t t e r t o se e \ . ,hether

12 t h i s a t a l l r e f r e s h e s y o u r r e c o l l e c t i o n , and we w i l l mark

13 t h i s a s E x h i b i t E - l .


15 wa s marked E x h i b i t No . E - l

]I i f o r i d e n t i f i c a t i o n . )

17 BY MR. MA RTIN :

18 Q I w i l l a sk y ou t o t a k e a l o o k a t t h e second p a r a -

HI g r a p h o f t h i s l e t t e r t h a t d e a l s w i t h Mr . E l l s b e r g .

20

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Washington , D.C . 20002 I(202) 546-6666 I

A T h i s l e t t e r I n o t i c e i s d a t e d on September 3 , 19 6 9 .

Q L e t me ex p l a i n t h a t f o r y o u . T h i s i s on e o f t h e

l e t t e r s t h a t was s e n t a s p a r t o f t h i s o v e r a l l w i r e t a p p r o -

j e c t , and t h i s l e t t e r , a l t h o u g h t h i s copy i s a d d r e s s e d t o you ,

a copy a l s o w e n t t o D r. K i s s i n g e r and D r. K i s s i n g e r d i d r e -

c e i v e and d i s c u s s t h i s l e t t e r .



23 5

1A I do r e c a l l , and when I t e s t i f i e d e a r l i e r I wa s

2

aware , o f c o u r s e , o f t h i s l e t t e r , I do r e c a l l t h a t l e t t e r3

having been b r o u g h t t o my a t t e n t i o n . I do r e c a l l t h a t D r.

4K i s s i n g e r h ad a ve r y h i g h o p i n i o n o f Mr. E l l s b e r g and Mr.

5H a l p e r i n ' s m e n t a l c a p a b i l i t y an d a v e ry lo w o p i n i o n o f t h e i r

6e m o t i o n a l s t a b i l i t y , b u t I r e c a l l Dr. K i s s i n g e r - - t h i s does

7n o t r e f r e s h my r e c o l l e c t i o n , and I t h i n k t h a t by t h i s t i m e ,

8S e p t e m b e r 3 , 1969 , t h e p o l i c y had been i n s t i t u t e d , which I

9have e a r l i e r d e s c r i b e d , where I had t h i s , w h a t I c a l l t h i s

10w i r e t a p i n f o r m a t i o n s e n t t o Haldeman o r K i s s i n g e r o r who-

11 e v e r had r e s p o n s i b i l i t y , b u t n o t t o be s e n t t o me u n l e s s t h e r e

12 wa s someth ing t h a t r e q u i r e d a c t i o n on my p a r t , b u t I m i g h t

13 have s e e n i t .

14 Q R e a l i z i n g t h a t m i g h t have been t h e p o l i c y d u r i n g

15 t h e o p e r a t i o n o f t h e s e \-,ire t a p s , g i v e n th e f a c t t h a t Mr .

]6 E l l s b e r g had been a c c u s e d o f l e a k i n g t h e s e p a p e r s an d i t

17 becoming a m a j o r i s s ue i n t h e summer o f ' 7 1 , t h e q u e s t i o n i s

18 w h e t h e r o r n o t t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n was b r o u g h t t o y o u r a t t e n t i o n

HI I n t h e summer o f ' 7 1 c o n c e r n i n g Mr . E l l s b e r g ?

20 A A f t e r Mr . E l l s b e r g wa s i n d i c t e d , you mean?

21 QNot n e c e s s a r i l y a f t e r he wa s i n d i c t e d , b u t a f t e r

22 he \-'as i d e n t i f i e d a s th e s o u r c e a n d became a t o p i c o f d i s -

23u s s i o n .

24A

I r e c a l l some d i s c u s s i o n w i t h r e g a r d t o E l l s b e r g an d

25 a l p e r i n b e i n g f r i e n d s and b e i n g , s h a l l we s a y, p o s s i b l y engaged

HOOVER REPORTING CO, INC. ,320 Massachusetts Avenue , N.LWashington, D.C . 20002 \(202) 546-6666



23 6

1i n e r r a t i c a c t i v i t i e s . I d o n ' t r e c a l l any s p e c i f i c d i s -

2c u s s ion a t t h a t t i m e o f a l e t t e r o f t h i s s o r t saying t h a t a

3wire tap tw o y e a r s b e f o r e had d i s c l o s e d t h a t E l l s b e r g and

4Halpe r in had t h e Grand J u r o r s a r e going to love t h i s - -

5had recommended t h a t Harry n o t t ake a t r i p a t t h e same t i me

6 h i s wife t a k e s o n e , so E l l s b e r g s ubse que n t l y ment ioned t o

7 ano the r i n d i v i d u a l t h a t he l e f t a s a t c h e l f i l l e d ,,,i t h s t u f f

8 a t h i s f r i e n d ' s house d u r i n g a c o n t a c t wi th P a t Ha r k s

9t h a t , o f c o u r s e , would be a m i s s p e l l i n g - - o f S c a r s d a l e , New

10 York. Sh e t o l d hi m t h a t th e s t u f f Harry had wa s a l l r i g h t ,

11 a l t hough i t wa s d i s o r i e n t i n g .

~ . Anybody r ead ing t h e l e t t e r would say t h a t t h a t m u s t

13 r e f e r t o d ru g s . I am n o t up on t h i s l i n g o o f " t r i p " and

14 th e r e s t . What i n fo rma t ion was brought t o me, when i t came

15 t o my a t t e n t i o n , I do n o t r e c a l l . At some t ime I hea rd ,

]6 a f t e r th e Pentagon Pap e r s c a se became n a t i o n a l n e w s - - Mr .

17 E l l s b e r g ' s name was b roug h t i n t o i t a l o n g w i t h , a p p a r e n t l y,

18 Mr. H a l p e r i n ' s - - I h ea r d t h a t t h e r e wa s i n fo rma t ion t o t h e

19 e f f e c t t h a t t h e s e p e o p l e were on d r u gs . I must s a y, t h o u g h ,

20 t h a t my r e c o l l e c t i o n a t t h i s t ime wa s t h a t t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n

21 had been d e v e l o p e d i n th e i n v e s t i g a t i o n o f E l l s b e r g a f t e r

22

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th e Pentagon P a p e r s came o u t , r a t h e r t h a n i n t h i s p e r i o d . An d

f r a n k l y, when I r ead t h i s f i l e , I wa s s u r p r i s e d t o f i n d t h a t

t h i s b u s i n e s s abo u t E l l s b e r g being on drugs and so f o r t h wa s

tw o y e a r s o ld a t th e t ime o f th e Pentagon Pape r s .



23

1Q Given t h a t t h e r e would be c o n c e r n a b o u t Mr.

2

E l l s b e r g ' s e r r a t i c b e h a v i o r and t h e p o s s i b i l i t y t h a t he had3

o t h e r documents which he m i g h t l e a k , do you r e c a l l o r do you

4have any knowledge o f anyone d i r e c t i n g t h a t Mr. E l l s b e r g him-

5s e l f o r any o f th e o t h e r p r i n c i p a l s i n v o l v e d i n t h e Pentagon

6p a p e r s ca s e s h o u l d be w i r e t a p p e d d u r i n g t h i s t ime p e r i o d ,

7a f t e r t h e p u b l i c a t i o n o f th e Pentagon P a p e r s ?

8 A No, I have no r e c o l l e c t i o n o f d i r e c t i n g t h a t t h e y

9 be w i r e t app e d . As a m a t t e r o f f a c t , t h e r e was a c o n s i d ~ r

10

11

12

13

14

15

17

18

l ! l

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d i s a g r e e m e n t w i t h i n th e A d m i n i s t r a t i o n a s t o w h e t h e r E l l s b e r g

s h o u l d even be p r o s e c u t e d .

As I t e s t i f i e d y e s t e r d a y, I s t o p p e d t h e p r o s e c u t i o n

o r s t o p p e d t h e e f f o r t s t h a t someone had t o make t o p r o s e c u t e

th e p u b l i s h e r s , who were e q u a l l y g u i l t y , f o r r e a s o n s t h a t I

t h o u g h t were v e r y good r e a s o n s , and i n t h e E l l s b e r g c a s e I

d i d n ' t t h i n k o r I d i d n ' t know o r d i d n ' t b e l i e v e - - I mean ,

when I say t h a t , many o f my a s s o c i a t e s d i d n o t b e l i e v e i t

was wor th \vh i le t o go ahead and p r o s e c u t e him, b u t e v e n t a u l l y

th e d e c i s i o n wa s made t o go f o r w a r d on t h e p r o s e c u t i o n .

I n c i d e n t a l l y , one o f t h ose who \vas v e r y r e l u c t a n t

a t t h e b e g i n n i n g t o go fOri-lard on Mr. E l l s b e r g ' s p r o s e c u t i o n

was Mr. Hoover and t h a t ".as f o r a v e r y s e n s i t i v e , p e r s o n a l

r e a s o n . E l l s b e r g was i n v o l v e d

Q You r e f e r t o Mrs. Marx?

A To Mrs. Marx . T h a t i s why I sa y i t i s a m i s s p e l l i n g



23 3

1 h e r e . I t s a y s M- a - r - k - s h e r e and i t i s M - a - r - x , t h e Marx

2 I knew and Mr . Hoover kne,v and E l l s b e r g was ma r r i e d to t h e

3 daugh t e r o f th e t o y maker, I-lho ,,,as one o f H r. Hoover ' s

4 c l o s e s t f r i e n d s , and a p p a r e n t l y Hr . Ma r x , l i k e , I am a f r a i d ,

5 p o o r Mr . Hears t , even though h i s dau g h t e r he knew was a l i t t l e

6 o f f , he s t i l l l o v e d h e r , and Hoover j u s t d i d n ' t w a n t t o g e t

7 i n t o t h e E l l s b e r g t h i n g b e c a u s e o f th e embar rassment t h a t i t

8 would c a u s e t o them.

9 I n c i d e n t a l l y , he d i d n ' t t e l l me t h a t s p e c i f i c a l l y ,

10 b u t t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n wa s conveyed t o me , I b e l i e v e , by t h e

11 A t t o r n e y G ene r a l .

Q R e t u r n i n g t o t h e i s s u e o f w i r e t a p p i n g , much l a t e r

13 o n , and aga in i n t h e same c o n v e r s a t i o n s t h a t Mr. Horowi tz

14 h as r e f e r r e d t o e a r l i e r , i n A p r i l o f 1973 , on t h a t day you

15 had m e e t i n g s ,,,i t h , among o t h e r s , fi r . P e t e r s e n and Hr . R i c h a r d

](; Hoore , and i n t h o s e c o n v e r s a t i o n s you a g a i n r e f e r t o t h e

17 Marx e p i s o d e \-7ith D i r e c t o r . Hoover . Yo u seem t o i n d i c a t e i n

~ t h o s e oonv e r s a t i o n s t h a t t h e r e wa s some w i r e t a p p i n g and

IH you s t a t e t o r1r. Pe- te r sen , and I q u o t e , "Now when Hoover g o t

20 i n t o i t , i t s h o u l d no w be wi r e t a p p i n g " and l a t e r you s t a t e ,

21 t h a t same d a y, t o H r. Ho o r e , "They had t h e FBI do bugging

22 once i t g o t i n t o t h e c a s e , l e t me a s s u r e you - u n q u o t e .

23I b e l i e v e you s t a t e d you do n ' t r e c a l l b e i n g a\ ' lare

24o f such w i r e t a p s ?

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239and I must say I was s u r p r i s e d t o f i n d , when I r e a d t h i s

r e c o r d , t h a t t h e r e was no w i r e t a p p i n g e x c e p t f o r a h i g h l y

s e n s i t i v e c a s e t h a t I , o f c o u r s e , w i l l answer q u e s t i o n s on i f

t h e S p e c i a l P r o s e c u t o r i s i n t e r e s t e d i n i t , i n v o l v i n g Yoeman

R a d f o r d , b u t t h e r e was no w i r e t a p p i n g a f t e r F e b r u a r y o f 1971 .

Of c o u r s e t h e r e was none a f t e r J u n e 20 o f '7 2 b e c a u s e t h a t

was t h e t i m e t h e s t a t u t e w e n t i n t o e f f e c t .

I j u s t assumed , w i t h o u t knowing , t h a t Mr. Hoover

i n c o n d u c t i n g an i n v e s t i g a t i o n vlOuld p r o b a b l y be d o i n g w h a t

t h e FB I a l w a y s d o e s , g o i n g t o e v e r y s o u r c e , u s i n g e v e r y method

p o s s i b l e i n o r d e r t o g e t i n f o r m a t i o n . My a s s u m p t i o n , a p p a r e n t

\vas i n c o r r e c t .

Q I would l i k e t o t u r n t o t h e p e r i o d a f t e r

A I n c i d e n t a l l y , I s h o u l d p o i n t o u t I c a n ' t r e c a l l s e e -

i n g and have no r e c o l l e c t i o n o f s e e i n g an y w i r e t a p s t h a t H a y.

I f t h e y were i n s t i t u t e d and t h e n d e s t r o y e d o r s o m e t h i n g , I

have no r e c o l l e c t i o n o f e v e r b e i n g i n f o r m e d o f w h a t ""as i n

them o r a n y t h i n g o f t h a t s o r t , so i f t h e y were d e s t r o y e d ,

which i s p o s s i b l e :....- t h a t i s Mr. Hoover ' s p r a c t i c e q u i t e

o f t e n n o t h i n g was p r o d u c e d i n them t h a t was c o n s i d e r ed t o

be i m p o r t a n t t o t h e p r o s e c u t i o n .

Q I would l i k e t o t u r n b r i e f l y t o a m e e t i n g you had

w i t h Mr . M i t c h e l l , Mr. E h r l i c h m a n , Hr . Haldeman , a f t e r Mr.

E l l s b e r g was i n d i c t e d , and j u s t t o t r y t o r e f r e s h y o u r

r e c o l l e c t i o n , t h e m e e t i n g was on J u l y 6 . What yo u m i g h t



24 0

1remember a b o u t i t i s t h a t a t t h a t t i m e you were a b o u t t o

2

d e p a r t f o r San C l e m e n t e .3

A T h i s i s 1971?

4Q Yes .

5A F o u r y e a r s a g o .

6Q An d Mr. H i t c h e l l wa s a b o u t t o d e p a r t f o r London

7f o r t h e ABA A s s o c i a t i o n , I b e l i e v e .

8A T h a t i s th e y e a r t h e tw o b a r a s s o c i a t i o n s had t h e i r

9 m e e t i n g i n London?

10Q Yes , and l e t me g iv e you a t r a n s c r i p t o f t h a t c o n -

11 v e r s a t i o n .

12 . A They m i g h t have made M i t c h e l l a K n i g h t o f t h e G u a r d s .

13 HR. ~ . A R T I N :L e t me mark t h i s a s E - 2 .

14 THE WITNES S: Or H a r t h a , make h e r th e Kn i g h t o f t h e

15 Guards .

Hi I am s o r r y . How he s t ood t h a t woman t h a t l ong , I

17 w i l l n e v e r knm ...

18 T h a t ' s a l l r i g h t ; t a k e i t down.

19 Now what do you w a n t t o know a b o u t t h i s c o n v e r s a t i o n ?


21 was marked E x h i b i t No . E-2


23 BY HR. f.1ARTIN:

24 Q I b e l i e v e t h i s c o n v e r s a t i o n g e n e r a l l y d e a l s w i t h

25 w h e t h e r o r n o t members o f th e NSC s t a f f , D r. K i s s i n g e r ' s s t a f f ,

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24 1

1 may be i nvo l ved i n l e a k i n g i n f o r m a t i o n , w h e t h e r t h e r e may be

2 a c o n s p i r a c y a s p e c t t o v a r i o u s l e a k s t h a t were o c c u r r i n g

3 a t t h a t t i me , b u t w h a t we a r e s p e c i f i c a l ly i n t e r e s t e d i n i s

4 t h e r e f e r e n c e s b e g i n n i n g on page 8 , \'There r.1r . Haldem an r a i s e s

5 t h e p o s s i b i l i t y t h a t someone s h o u l d r e v i e w t h e w i r e t a p r e c o r

6 t h a t we have been r e f e r r i n g b t o s e e w h e t h e r t h e r e would be

7 a n y t h i n g o f v a l u e t o t h e Pentagon P a p e r s i n v e s t i g a t i o n and

8 Hr . r.1 i t che l l s t a t e s t h a t he i s h a v i n g them r e v i e w e d i n t h e

9 B u r e a u . T h a t c o n v e r s a t i o n c o n t i n u e s i n t h a t v e i n u p t o

10 a b o u t th e m i d d l e o f page 9 o r t h e t o p o f page 9 .

11 A Yes, I have r e a d i t .

12 . Q Do you r e c a l l b e i n g i n f o r m e d by Hr . M i t c h e l l t h a t

13 t h e s e w i r e t a p r e c o r d s were b e i n g rev iewed?

14 A I have no i nde pe n den t r e c o l l e c t i o n o f i t , b u t hav in

15 s e e n t h i s c o n v e r s a t i o n , Hr . M i t c h e l l must have t o l d me t h a t

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on t h a t o c c a s i o n .

Q Do you r e c a l l w h e t h e r a n y o n e , o t h e r t h a n Mr.

Mitche l l , i n f o r m e d you o f t h a t ?

A I have no r e c o l l e c t i o n o f anybody e l s e h a v i n g

t o l d me , b e c a u s e i t i s n o t a s u b j e c t t h a t I c o n s i d e r t o be - -

I f e a r a t t h a t t ime I had v e r y much on my mind .

You n o t e d t h e d a t e he re - J u l y 6 ?

Q Yes , I no t ed t h a t i s th e d a t e t h a t D r. K i s s i n g e r

\Vas on h i s wa y t o China and I t h i n k t h a t

A Yo u know why I w a s n ' t t h i n k i n g a b o u t i t ?



24 2

1Q I am sor ry?

2I t wa s a t t h a t t ime t h a t t h e Chinese i n i t i a t i v e

3wa s b e i n g und e r t ake n and my mind was , b e i n g t h e s i n g l e t r a c k

4mind t h a t i t i s , \vhere major s u b j e c t s were con ce r ned , t h r o u gh -

5o u t t h e p e r i o d o f J u l y , u n t i l th e announcement wa s made on

6J u l y 15 t h a t t h e t r i p wa s going t o be t aken , and f o r some

7 t ime t h e r e a f t e r , I wa s t h i n k i n g o f t h e China i n i t i a t i v e . Con-

8 s e q u e n t l y my r e c o l l e c t i o n o f a c o n v e r s a t i o n o f t h i s s o r t i s ,

9f r a n k l y, a s I s t a t e d . I s i m p l y d o n ' t r e c o l l e c t i t , b u t i f

10 you were t o q u e s t i o n me today abou t t h e m ee t i n g s I had w i t h

11 K i s s i n g e r , t h e c a b l e s t h a t h e s e n t t o me 'IThile he wa s o n t h e

12 \vay t o C h i n a , t h e problems he wa s having o f g e t t i n g from

13 P a k i s t a n t o C h i n a , h i s c o n v e r s a t i o n s w i t h Chou E n - l a i and a

14 m e e t i n g t h a t he had wi th o t h e r C h i n e s e o f f i c i a l s , I c o u l d

15 remember i t a l m o s t v e r b a t i m . B ut t h i s k i n d o f t h i n g I j u s t

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d i d n ' t pay t h a t much a t t e n t i o n t o , and I d o n ' t t h i n k yo u \vould

have e i t h e r .

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A No , you w o u l d n ' t .

Q I would l i k e t o t u r n t o - -

A I d o n ' t sa y t h a t w i t h an y r e f l e c t i o n on you . I mean

you have yo u r jo b and I have mine , b u t I want t h e Grand J u r 9 r s

t o u n d e r s t a n d when I s a y I d o n ' t r e c o g n i z e s o m e t h i n g , i t

i s n ' t b e c a u s e I am t r y i n g t o duck a q u e s t i o n . I f I d o n ' t

r e c o l l e c t i t , I am n o t g o i n g t o sa y I do , and when you a r e



24 3

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engaged i n a c t i v i t i e s t h a t a r e , f o r example , what you t a l k e d

2

a b o u t , t h e d a t e o f t h e i n s t i t u t i o n o f t h e w i r e t a p s , - - Yo u3

know how many Amer icans were b e i n g k i l l e d i n Vie tnam them - -

4 t h r e e hundred a week . There were 60 0 pmvs i n Vie tnam i n May

5o f 1969 , and a t t h a t t ime mass ive o f f e n s i v e s " ,e re coming down

6from t h e n o r t h i n Vie tnam and a t t h a t t i m e , a s w e l l , 1 4 , 0 0 0

7Amer icans " , e re b e i n g d r a f t e d . A l l o f t h a t we s t o p p e d , a nd

8 vIe c o u l d n ' t have s t o p p e d them u n l e s s we had had s e c r e t m e e t -

9 i n g s w i t h t h e C h i n e s e , w i t h t h e R u s s i a n s , w i t h t h e N o r t h

10 Vie tnamese and t h e S o u t h Vi e t n a m e s e . I t was a f o u r - l e g g e d

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s t o o l , and t h a t i s why, you s e e , my co n c e r n a b o u t l e a k s was

so g r e a t , my c o n c e r n a b o u t t h e P e n t a g o n P a p e r s wa s so g r e a t .

A l o t o f o u r s o u r c e s d r i e d up f o r some t ime a f t e r

t h e P e n t a g o n P a p e r s came o u t and t h e y d r i e d up b e c a u s e t h e y

d i d n ' t t h i n k t h e y c o u l d t a l k t o somebody f rom t h e U n i t e d

S t a t e s v l i t h o u t f e a r i n g - - I am s p e a k i n g o f f o r e i g n s o u r c e s

w i t h o u t f e a r i n g , w i t h o u t b e i n g a s s u r e d t h a t t h a t would be

i n c o n f i d e n c e , so I would s a y t h a t a s a r e s u l t o f , , ,hat

Mr . E l l s b e r g d i d and what t h e New York Times , a n d , i n my

o p i n i o n , one o f t h e m o s t i r r e s p o n s i b l e a c t i o n s by a g r e a t

ne\vspaper o f t h i s n a t i o n d i d , t h e e n d i n g o f a . . a r and t h e

k i l l i n g o f Am e r i c a n s wa s d e l a y e d .I n i t i a t i v e s would have

come much s o o n e r had t h a t n o t happened .

Oh, I know t h i s goes a g a i n s t t h e c u r r e n t t h i n k i n g .

I d o n ' t mean you g e n t l e m e n an d I d o n ' t mean t h e Grand J u r o r s .



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1Th e c u r r e n t t h i n k i n g i s t h a t E l l s b e r g and th e New York T imes

2s h o u l d be he roe s f o r e x p o s i n g and p u t t i n g o u t a l l o f t h i s

3c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n .

4L e t me sa y wh e n c o n f i d e n t i a l i n f o r m a t i o n i s pu t

5o u t t h a t c o s t s one American l i f e , I t h i n k th e one t h a t p u t s

6i t o u t should go t o j a i l f o r i t .

7Q He l l , a p p r e c i a t i n g y o u r c o n c e r n s a s y ou s t a t e d

8 them

9A ~ ~y I t h i n k y ou a g ree wi t h t h a t , d o n ' t you?

10 Q H e l l , I t h i n k I - -

11 A I am s o r r y , i t i s n o t my r i g h t t o q u e s t i o n y o u . I

12 . am s o r r y .

13 Q Given t h i s concern , an d g iven yo ur c o n c e r n abo u t

14 th e f a c t t h a t Mr . E l l s b e r g , i n o r d e r t o minimize t he damage

15 t h a t had a l r e a d y been done , he should be p r o s e c u t e d so t h a t

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focus on th e even t s i n v o l v i n g Mr . E l l s b e r g d u r i n g t h i s p e r i od .

HI I wou ld l i k e t o t u r n t o a m e e t i n g t h a t y ou h ad i n San Clemente

20 vd t h Mr . Eh r l i chm a n and Mr . Haldeman. Th e no t e s t h a t \ve

21 have i n d i c a t e d t h a t Mi s s Noods wa s t h e r e a t th e beginning o f

22 th e mee t i ng , b u t I b e l i e v e t h a t po r t i o n o f t h e conv e r s a t i o n

23 dea l t wi t h th e Nixon L i b r a r y and i t i s n o t r e l e v a n t t o u s .

24 A f t e r t h a t p o r t i o n o f the conve r sa t i on , th e

25 \1 c o n v e r s a t i o n t u r n s t o th e Pe ntagon Pa pe r s and t h e r e i s

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21 51

r e a l l y j u s t tw o b r i e f r e f e r e n c e s : One, t h e r e i s a s t a t e m e n t ,

2 which a p p a r e n t l y would have b e e n made by y o u , s t a t i n g t h a t

3R o g e r s , meaning S e c r e t a r y o f S t a t e R o g e r s , s h o u l d be t a p p i n g

4m o r e . Do you r e c a l l making s u c h a s t a t e m e n t ?

5 A I don ' t r e c a l l making such a s t a t e m e n t , b u t I do

6r e c a l l t h a t Dr . K i s s i n g e r , a n d , i n c i d e n t a l l y , I t h i n k i n -

7c o r r e c t l y i n t h i s i n s t a n c e , f e l t t h a t t h e S t a t e D e p a r t m e n t

8 b u r e a u c r a c y \.;ras pO '1 ! e n t i a l l y more v u l n e r a b l e i n t e n u s o f

9l e a k i n g and l e s s t r u s t , v o r t h y t h a n an y o t h e r p a r t s o f t h e

10 b u r e a u r a c r a c y, an d t h a t we s h o u l d make some e f f o r t t o do

11 someth ing a b o u t t h e S t a t e D e p a r t m e n t p e o p l e .

12 , Now, a s f a r a s Hr . R o g e r s was c o n c e r n e d , he ,.;ras t h e

13 S e c r e t a r y o f S t a t e . He c o u l d n ' t d o any t a p p i n g . I t had t o

14 be d o n e , a s I have a l s o s a i d , t h r o u g h t h e u s u a l ways : The

15 A t t o r n e y G e n e r a l h ad t o a p p r o v e them o r I h ad t o a p p r o v e

]( i them - - n o , I d i d n ' t a p p r o v e them - - t h e A t t o r e n y G e n e r a l

17 approved them, b u t i f I o r d e r e d them, th e A t t o r n e y G e n e r a l

18 would approve them, b u t a s f a r a s t h e S t a t e D e p a r t m e n ~p e r -

19 s o n n e l were c o n c e r n e d , a s you know, none o f them were t a p p ed .

20 Q B e i n g i t a p p e a r s t h a t t h e s u b j e c t o f w i r e t a p p i n g

21 was b e i n g r a i s e d by t h i s comment , t h e r e i s , a g a i n , a s t a t e m e n t

22 w i t h r e g a r d to ~ ' r e Grand J u r y : do n ' t \vorry r e t a p s on d i s -

2 3 covery r e w i t n e s s " and i t a p p e a r s t o be w i t n e s s e s o f t h e

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1 i t t o me , b u t I have f o r g o t t e n which one i t i s .

2 HR. HARTIN: I have marked as E x h i b i t E-2 H r.

3 Ehr l i chman ' s n o t e s o f a m e e t i n g on J u l y 10 , 1971 .


5 wa s marked E x h i b i t No . E-2


7 THE tHTNESS: Yes , you can go a h e a d ,oJi t h y o u r

8 q u e s t i o n . I can l i s t e n whi l e I r ead i t .

9 BY HR. HARTIN:

10 Q Th e f i r s t page o f t h o se no t e s i s , a s I i n d i c a t e d

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p a g e , no t e 9 t u r n s t o t h e s u b j e c t o f E l l s b e r g , n o t e 10 i s

th e n o t e I r e a d p r e v i o u s l y concern ing H r. Rogers and t h en

t h e r e i s t h i s note I j u s t r e a d c o n c e r n i n g t h e Grand J u r y . Do

you r e c a l l any such r e f e r e n c e b e i n g made t o wi r e t a p s some-

how be ing d i s c o v e r e d o r d i s c o v e r y m o t i o n s r e l a t i n g t o w i r e

t app ing i n th e Grand J u ry i n v e s t i g a t i o n o r i n any a s p e c t o f

t h e Pentagon P a p e r s ?

A No ., I d o n ' t r e c a l l . I d o n ' t know what g r a n d ,j u ry

t h a t cou ld have been he i s r e f e r r i n g t o . These a r e h i s

n o t e s , o f c o u r s e .

I do kno"" t h i s , t h a t on many o c c a s i o n s I t o l d him,

and I t o l d Dr. K i s s i n g e r , I t o l d s e v e r a l o f them t h a t we shou l

n o t be d e f e n s i v e w i t h r e g a r d t o wire t a pping f o r n a t i o n a l

s e c u r i t y p u rpo s e s , t h a t we c o u ld d e f e n d them. I d id n o t want



2 47

1t o d i s c l o s e t h a t we were doing i t b e c a u s e t h a t would , o f

2

c o u r s e , blow t h e whole program, b u t t h a t we should n o t be3

d e f e n s i v e , and ob v io u s ly if t h e r e was a g r a n d j u r y p roceed -

4i n g , s i n c e g r a n d j u r y p ro c eed ing s a r e t o t a l l y o f f t h e r e c o r d ,

5t h a t i s one a r e a where t h e r e would be no c o n c e r n if w i r e

6 t app ing wa s d i s c l o s e d .

7Q S p e c i f i c a l l y , t h e wa y t h a t c o n c e r n c ou ld a r i s e i s

8t h a t if a Grand J u r y w i t n e s s wa s h o s t i l e and r e f u s e d to

9t e s t i f y a nd even a f t e r g r a n t e d immunity r e f u s e d t o t e s t i f y

10 and t h e government went i n t o c o u r t t o have him h e l d i n c o n -

11 t emp t , he c o u l d r a i s e t h e i s s u e o f w h e t h e r o r n o t he had been

12 w i r e t a p p e d . This would have happened , p e r h a p s , a l t hough

13 i t d i d no t happen , b u t i t c o u l d have happened ",i t h Mr .

14 Halpe r in i f he wa s c a l l e d b e f o r e a g r a n d j u r y , and i t c ou ld

W have happened wi th v a r i o u s r e p o r t e r s i f t h e y were c a l l e d b e -

] Ii f o r e a g r a n d j u r y .

17 Do you r e c a l l an y c o n c e r n t h a t i n t h e s e g r a n d

18 j u r y p roceed ing s t h e s e w i r e t a p s m i g h t have t o be d i s c l o s e d ?

HI A What p roc eed ing s \ 'l e r e going on a t t h a t t i m e i n

20 t h e g r a n d j u ry?

21 Q There wa s th e Bos ton Grand J u ry a t t h a t t i m e .

22 A What were t h e y i n v e s t i g a t i n g ?

23Q They vlere i n v e s t i g a t i n g th e a s p e c t s more r e l a t e d

24 t o t h e d e l i v e r y o f t h e p ape r s t o t h e Times and P os t a s opposed

t o t h e e a r l i e r i n v e s t i g a t i o n , which was , b a s i c a l l y , t h e Xerox-

HOOVER REPORTING CO . INC .320 MassachusettsA/ enue. NLWashington, D.C. 20002 II(202) 546·6666



24 8

1in g and co py in g o f t h e documents du r ing 1969 and ' 7 0 . Do

2

y ou r e c a l l any such s t a t e m e n t a bou t o r any i n d i c a t i o n3

A I d o n ' t r e c a l l t h i s . I c a n n o t r e c a l l t h e d i s c u s s i o n

4s p e c i f i c a l l y . I r e c a l l g e n e r a l l y what I have t o l d you a l r e a d y

5Q Do you r e c a l l i n t h i s d i s c u s s i o n o r a t o r abou t

6t h i s t ime b e i n g t o l d t h a t Mr. Mardian would come o u t h e r e

7to Sa n Clemente t o d i s c u s s t h e s e wi r e t a p s wi th y o u , t h a t

8t h e r e wa s some p ro b l e m \ vi t h o r e g a r d t o t h e wire t a p s ?

9A Yes , I know Hr . Mard ian d i d come o u t t o t a l k t o me

10a b o u t i t .

11Q Do you r e c a l l t h e c i r cum s t an ces under which you

12 \-,ere t o l d he \-,as coming, vJhether a t a l k i n g p a p e r o r some

p r e l i m i n a r y m e e t i n g s were h e l d , o r any t h i n g o f t h a t n a t u r e ?

14 A No, an d I d o n ' t have a ny p a p e r s . As yo u k now,

15 you have t h o s e , so I w o u l d n ' t have any op p o r t u n i t y t o r e v i e w

Hj t h a t . I mean yo u have them, un le s s we haven ' t t u r n ed them

17 o v e r t o you . You d o n ' t have them un le s s we t u r n e d them o v e r

18 to you .

IH T h a t i s n o t a f a i r s t a t e m e n t . But y o u r a c t i o n s

20 have made i t imp o ss i b l e f o r me t o have my pa pe r s h e r e .

gpo nara wspf nixon grand jury records 22

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