gigi tevzadze. აქ და ყველგან. nunc et undique. 2006
TRANSCRIPT
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NUNC ET UNDIQUE
aq da yvelgan
NUNC ET UNDIQUE
2
sarCevi:
siyvarulis, mecnierebis da sxva
demonebis Sesaxeb................................................... 3
cxovelebi da sxva RvTiuri arsebebi ...20
meSvide .........................................................................32
aq da dRes .................................................................49
dialogi ......................................................................67
3
siyvarulis, mecnierebis da sxva
demonebis Sesaxeb
heklberi: amas winaT isev mecnierebaze iyo kamaTi
beki: raRac daweres, xo?
heklberi: ho, TiTqos viRacas unda rom Cvens StatSi
mecniereba daRupos da gaanadguros
beki: raRaca albaT unda ganadgurdes raRaca ara..
heklberi: a?
beki: TiTqmis. me politikosebis mxridan ar
vgulisxmob
heklberi: aba?
beki: TavisiT.
heklberi: eg ra martivi pasuxia
beki: rTuli ginda?
heklberi: Zalianac ara, magram ai im TavisTvis, exla
zemodan rom giyurebs, xom unda iyos gasagebi
beki: mag Tavis motana kargi sababia mecnierebaze
saubris dasawyebad
heklberi: saubris ki ara, dialogis
beki: rogorc aris – TviTon mixvdi Tu avtorma gaTqmevina?
heklberi: daiwye exla – sad iyavi manam, sanam avtori
gadawyvetda Sens daweras
beki: ara, – sad iyo avtori manam, sanam es azri
gauCndeboda? anda, kidev ukeTesi, rogori iyo avtori manam,
sanam es azri gauCndeboda – am samyaroSi, me da Sen rom
varT, es sulis gamosawrTobi kiTxvaa, iq, sadac avtori
cxovrobs – ara, sruliad legitimuri da azriani, samyaros
rom asaxavs.
heklberi: mTlad ar aris is rac unda iyos, magram ara
uSavs.. ratom aris ai es Tavi kargi mecnierebaze dialogis
dasawyebad?
beki: imdenad kargia, rom avtors SeeZlo sulac ar
eTqmevinebina is ori suleluri fraza Cvens StatSi
mecnierebis ganadgurebis Sesaxeb. kargia imitom, rom imas,
rasac dRes mecnierebas uwodeben, Zalian gansxvavdeba
imisagan, rac mecniereba hgoniaT
heklberi: anu?
beki: anu, ra hgoniaT mecniereba Tu ras uwodeben
mecnierebas?
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heklberi: nu maimunob, orive, an jer pirveli
beki: fiqroben, rom mecniereba, aris is, rac
Seimecnebs samyaros, iZleva ufro komfortuli
cxovrebis saSualebas, igonebs iaraRebs, maT Soris
sasikvdilos, anadgurebs garemos, igonebs garemos
SenarCunebis xerxebs, inarCunebs mas, axangZlivebs
adaminis sicocxles, amcirebs adaminis sicocxles,
uzrunvelyofs sistemebis mdgradobas, da ase Semdeg.
heklberi: es CamonaTvali Cinuri enciklopediis
ganmartebas hgavs
beki: romels?
heklberi: ai amas, avtors rom mohyavs Tavis wignSi
- cxovelebi iyofian Semdegnairad: a) imperatoris
sakuTreba; b) balzamirebulebi; g) moSinaurebulebi;
d) ZuZuTa goWebi; e) sirenebi; v) zRaprulebi; z)
upatrono ZaRlebi; T) am klasifikaciaSi Sesulebi;
i) yvelas rom Tavs esxmian, TiTqos gagiJebuliyvnen;
k) usasrulod bevrni; l) aqlemis bewvisagan
damzadebuli Zalian wvrili funjiT daxatulebi; m)
sxvebi; n) es esaa larnaki rom gatexes; o) TiTqos Sors
rom dafrinaven.
beki: sulac ar hgavs
heklberi: hgavs – ramdenime saukunis Semdeg es
gansazRvrebac msgavsi iqneba – anu, Cven ganvmarteT, ra
hqvia imas, rasac akeTebeb isini, vinc mecnierebis saxeliT
moqmedeben da vinc mecnierebi arian..
beki: iseve, rogorc Cinur ganmartebaSi – cxovelebi arian
isini, visac hqviaT cxovelebi
heklberi: es moxerxebuli ganmartebaa da arc ise
sasacilo – anu, usasruloa, SeiZleba usasrulod
gagrZeldes da Sesabamisad, potenciurad SeuZlia marTlac
yvela cxoveli moicvas..
beki: anu, egreTwodebuli aRweriTi ganmartebaa, ar xsnis,
aramed CamoTvlis..
heklberi: mainc ratom gansxvavdeba is rac hgoniaT
mecniereba imisagan, rac mecniereba aris?
beki: principSi, rodesac raRacaze fiqrs iwyeb, is raRaca
ukve gansxvavdeba imisagan rac is manamde iyo, sanam fiqrs
daiwyebdi
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heklberi: es yvela SemTxvevaSi asea?
beki: me mgoni ki. rogorc ki raRac xdeba
TavisTavad cxadi – magaliTad, mecniereba, samyaros
mowyoba, saxli, Seni megobari - es
TavisTavadgasageboba misi buneba xdeba. anu, am
SemTxvevaSi sagani, myofi, adamiani, aris yvelaze
ufro TavisTavadgasagebi..
heklberi: auf, es ra filosofiur gaugebrobaSi
magdeb..
beki: ara, ubralod gixsni, ratom xdeba yvelaferi
sxva, rodesac masze fiqrs iwyeb
heklberi: Sen ginda Tqva, rom TavisTavadgasageboba
sagnis bunebaa da ara Cveni damokidebuleba,
romelic Cveni survilis/ganwyobis mixedviT
icvleba?
beki: ho, me geubnebi, rom Cven TavisTavadgasagebTa
samyaroSi vcxovrobT, da nebismieri cvlilebis
mizani aris TavisTavadgasagebobis Secvla
heklberi: ise, rom dafiqrde, SeiZleba marTlac ase
iyos _ sagnebi da sityvebi Cvens winaSe raRac
idumalebiT ki ar arian warmodgenilebi, da Cven – Cveni
sizarmacis gamo ver vxedavT maT arss – aramed isini arian
rogorc TavisTavadgasagebni – da mxolod Cveni survilis
mixedviT xdebian isini Rrmebi da gansxvavebulni –
sxvadasxva fenebis da siRrmeebis Semcvelebi
beki: da Semdeg icvlebian kidec – anu, Cven rom gvgonia,
rom vicode rame, niSnavs vicode misi warmoSoba, amis
sapirispiroa da niRbavs da faravs.
heklberi: niRbavs da faravs, Semodis sami filosofosi..
beki: maimunob...
heklberi: kargi, davseriozuldebi – platonis da
sokrates damkidebulebac – sinaTlisken da gasagebobisaken
swrafva – amis SeniRbva/arcodnaa erTis mxriv, xolo meore
mxriv – amis damalva
beki: risi damalva?
heklberi: rom saganze azrovneba mis Secvlas iwvevs da is
ukve aRar aris TavisTavadgasagebi bunebis, amitom im
momentSi amovardnilia samyarodan
beki: magram mere xom isev xdeba am axali sagnis
TavisTavadgasagebad qceva da misi TavisTavadgasagebi
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samyaros nawilad gaxdoma _ Tuki es azrovneba
moaxerxebs daamtkicos, rom aseTi axali sagani
ufro gamosadegia da praqtikuli, vidre Zveli?
heklberi: ki, rogor ara. am SemTxvevaSi gza
TavisTavadgasagebobisaken – sakmaod rTulia da
gaaCnia ra sagnebs da sityvebs exeba saqme.
beki: saganSi TavisTavad araviTari siRrme da
dafaruli azrebi ar unda arsebobdnen –
potenciurad - Tuki es sityva varga am azris
gadmosacemad – iq “mTeli samyaroa”, Tumca am
msjelobebis mere es “mTeli samyaroc” kargavs
azrs..
heklberi: igive exeba adamianebsac – sagnebis mimarT
SeiZleba amas SevurigdeT, magram sxva Cvennairis
mimarT? iqac igive viTarebasTan gvavs saqme?
beki: me mgoni ki – ubralod, hm, ubralod,
adamianebis Soris TavisTavadgasagebobis rTuli
struqtura muSaobs: komunikacia aris raRac
konkretuli konstruqciis SeTavazeba meoresaTvis
mis Sesaxeb, da Tu es konstruqti misaRebia, maSin
komunikacia Semdgaria. arseboben miRebuli da dadgenili
konsruqtebi da Cven enobrivi TamaSebis da Jestebis eniT
vaxdenT am konstruqtebis gadarCeva/SeTavazebas.
heklberi: es xom Zalian martivi sqemaa, erTi miTxari, ra
konstruqts sTavazob roca seqsi ginda konkretul
pirovnebasTan?
beki: arsebobs ufro rTuli modelebi, magaliTad
siyvarulis dros, rodesdac SeTavazeba yoveldRiur
urTierTobasTan SedarebiT rTuli bunebisaa da aseTive
rTul, arayoveldRiur aqtiur Tanxmobas moiTxovs
meorisagan, da faqtiurad, niSnavs Seni momavali
partinioris bunebis, hi, hi, arsis, Secvlas
heklberi: aba ra, iyo sxvisi, gaxda Seni seqsualuri
partniori
beki: SeiZleba egrec avxsnaT.. anu, Sen amiT meore
adamianis, hi, hi, bunebaSi seriozuli koreqtivi Segaqvs
heklberi: ho, rac ar xdeba bordelSi – iq seqsi aranairi
siaxle ar aris arc SenTvis da arc Seni partniorisaTvis
beki: ho, iq seqsi sagnebis da sityvebis
TavisTavadgasagebobaSi moZraobs
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heklberi: iq Secvlis SeTavazeba iqneboda bordelis
macxovrebels ise daewyo qceva, TiTqos bunebis
Secvlas Tavazobde..
beki: albaT, magram ara mgonia aseTi TanamSromeli
bordels aetana
heklberi: aseTive bunebis unda iyos
qarizmatulobac, albaT..
beki: me mgoni ki.. qarizmatuloba am SemTxvevaSi
SeTavazebuli konstruqciaa, droSi gawelili:
mmarTvelobis, liderobis mosurne sakuTar mizans/
obieqts sTavazobs bunebis Secvlas, misi
TavisTavadgasagebobis gadasinjvas
heklberi: misi TavisTavadgasageboba ra aris?
beki: gaaCnia ra unda qarizmatulobis SemTavazebels
– erTi jgufis, erTi Tvisebis da xasiaTis
admianebis, Tu, qveynis xalxis lideroba..
heklberi: aaa, is eubneba rom unda gaxdes maTi
lideri da raRac drois ganmavlobaSi sxvadasva
meTodebiT aCvenebs rogori mamaci, mzrunveli,
principuli da ase Semdeg aris...
beki: da mere ucbad viRaceebi aRmoaCenen, rom is
qarizamatuli tipi gaxda, farTo sazogadoeba . . .
heklberi: sxvadasxva sifarTovis sxvadasxva SemTxvevaSi
beki: macale, sazogadoeba Tanaxmaa – zogi sixaruliT, zogi
orWofobiT, dahyves mis nebas
heklberi: Zalian moxerxebulad waramodgine qarizmatuloba
rogorc seqsualuri aqtis winapiroba
beki: SeiZleba, magram sinamdvileSi . . .
heklberi: sinamdvileSi?
beki: ukacravad, Tundac, es erTi procesis sxvadasxva
gamovlenaa – Sen azrovneb TavisTavadgasageb movlenaze,
Sedixar sasiyvarulo uriTierTobaSi, xdebi qarizmatuli
politikosi Tu ubralod komunikacias amyareb axal
jgufTan – Sen amiT arsebuli TavisTavadgasagebobis
revizias iTxov da aRwev, Tu warmatebuli xar
heklberi: magram xom unda arsebobdnen gauziarebeli
SeTavazebebi.. ..
beki: ki, da aseTia filosofia
heklberi: vai?
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beki: ho, filosofiuri teqstebi, Tavisi sirTulis
gamo, da Cven Cvens droSi me mgoni mivadeqiT im
etaps, sadac filosofiuri teqstis erTaderTi
maxasiaTebeli sirTule xdeba
heklberi: albaT
beki: nu mawyvetineb. es teqstebi Tavisi sirTulis..
heklberi: an usargeblobis
beki: nu mawyvetineb, sirTulis gamo ar ziardeba,
anu, maTSi aRwerili TavisTavadgasagebebis
gaazreba/revizia rogorc wesi – rTuli gasagebia –
amitom, isini ganwirulebi arian
warumateblobisaTvis
heklberi: mecniereba?
beki: rogorc iqna davbrundiT saTaurTan
heklberi: karga or-sam-oTxgverdiani gadaxveva
gamogvivida..
beki: mecnierebas sxva iaraRi aqvs, riTac is
aiZulebs TavisTavadgasagebobis sakuTari
gadaxedvis/reviziis gaziarebas
heklberi: ra?
beki: Sedegi – macivari, televizori, raketa, Satli,
avtomati.. gavagrZelo? mecniereba axali TavisTavadgasagebi
sagnebiT avsebs Cvens samyaros, umateben mas sagnebs..
Sesabamisad, mecnierebas macivriT aqvs nayidi indulgencia
heklberi: eseigi, mecniereba ganwirulia
warmatebulobisaTvis sanam sagnebiT avsebs samyaros?
beki: ho, Tanac, aq ormxrivi procesia – erTis mxriv
adamiani sul ufro da ufro xdeba raRac teqnikuri
Cvevebis matarebeli – magaliTad, operaciuli sistemis
gamoyenebis Cvevis, xolo mecnierebis mier mowodebuli
TavisTavadgasagebi sagani swored imitom xdeba
TavisTavadgasagebi, rom am operaciul sistemaSi xdeba misi
SefuTva
heklberi: a?
beki: aba warmoidgine, macivris gamoyenebisaTvis rTuli
gamoTvlis gakeTeba rom giwevdes, avtomatis yoveli
srolisas tyviis traeqtoriis qaRaldze gamoTvla.. aravin
ar iyidida maT da ar gamoiyenebda
heklberi: yovel SemTxvevaSi Zalin cota – TviTon
mecnierebi albaT, da am sagnebis gamoyeneba/warmoeba rTuli
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da Zviri iqneboda – da sul idgeboda sakiTxi
mecnierebis gamousadegrobis Sesaxeb..
beki: eg zustad aRwers filosofiis garemos –
filosofia aris macivris yoveli gamoyenebisaTvis
yinulis Seqmnis procesis Tavidan bolomde Catareba
da tyviis srolisaTvis yoveli tyviis traeqtoriis
gamoTvla sxvadasxva formulebiT
heklberi: maxvilgonieria, magram ara mgonia,
filosofosebi amaze dageTanxmon
beki: nu dameTanxmebian, nugeSad ramdenime gverdiT
ukan gadafurclon da aagon TaviTavadgasagebobis
filosofia, vCuqni..
heklberi: ra cinizmia, Tanac Tavxeduri
beki: ratom – arc araferi ikargeba bunebaSi
heklberi: da mecniereba?
beki: mecniereba warmatebuli filosofiaa,
romelmac miagno TavisTavadgasagebi sagnebis, an
ubralod, sagnebis Seqmnis gzas
heklberi: filosofiur qvas?
beki: ho, meti ra aris azrovnebis istoria, Tu ara
sagnebis Semqmnelis da gardamqnelis Zebna? igive SeiZleba
iTqvas literaturaze – literaturac amravlebs samyaros
sagnebiT/sityvebiT – wignebiT, failebiT, teqstebiT – isic
TavisTavadgasagebobis amocanis amoxsnaa
heklberi: ho da rac ver ixsneba da rac warumatebelia –
mecnierebaSi da literaturaSi – aris filosofia da sxva
misi msgavsni
beki: ase pirdapir?
heklberi: ho
beki: mokled, azrovnebis istoria ase gamogvivida –
heklberi: gamogvivida? me mxolod gismen
beki: geSinia? filosofia da sxva yvela mas mimsgavsebuli
aris reliqturi, memkvidreoba romelic daicala sityvebis
da sagnebis Seqmnis unaridan, da mainc SenarCunda albaT,
araswori warmodgenis gamo, rom raki literatura da
mecniereba iqidan gamovidnen, rasac mere filosofia ewoda,
iqneb kidev moxdes rames gamosvla iqidano..
heklberi: ise, xandaxan xdeba kidec..
beki: magaliTad?
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heklberi: magaliTad – filosofiuri teqstebi
xandaxan gavlenas rom moaxdens literaturaze da
mecnierebaze..
beki: egec xdeba, marTali xar – mag imediT
arsebobs eg reliqti – rom iqneb rameze moaxdinos
gavlena. magram es ise iSviaTad xdeba, rom
filosofiis istoria asec SeiZleba warmovidginoT
– gavlenis moxdenidan gavlenis moxdenamde,
ramdenime saukuniani intervalebiT..
heklberi: magram gavlenebi xom arsebobs
beki: ise, kacma ar icis, es gavlenebi marTla
gavlenebia, Tu saerTo struqturebi
heklberi: ras gulisxmob?
beki: imas, rom me rom ar vicode, rom seriozuli
samecniero naSromis ukan televizori an
kondicioneri iWyiteba, ra Tqma unda, im teqsts
bodvad Sevracxavdi, romelic ar iqneboda ufro
zusti, vidre nebismieri cnobili Tu ucnobi
filosofiuri teqsti
heklberi: magram samecniero sazogadoeba..?
beki: merwmune, Cemo patara megobaro, samecniero da
filosofosTa sazogadoebebma rac ar unda amtkicon,
macivari yovelTvis gadamwyvet sityvas ambobs
heklberi: maSin gamodis, rom Tavisi struqturiT da
SinaarsiT es ori mimarTuleba – anu, mecniereba da
literatura erT mxares – xolo meore mxares filosofia
– principSi erTi da igivea..
beki: ho, Tu ar gaviTvaliswinebT raze azrovneben isini
da raze fiqroben, da ra sagnebi undaT rom gaakeTon –
mecnierebis da literaturis dasawyisi
TavisTavadgasagebebze fiqria, is aris amosavali da
amocanac aris sxva TavisTavadgasagebebis -sagnebis da
sityvebis gamravleba. filosofia ki TavisTavadgasagebis
gardaqmnas cdilobs,
heklberi: iman rom Tqva, seirnoba rom uyvarda – sagnebis
gamravlebiT samyaros ver Seimecnebo
beki: da ai swored es iyo wyalgamyofi ramac filosofia
sxva gziT waiyvana
heklberi: auf, aRmoaCine, xom Tavi da Tavi, SeeSvi am
martinis wrupvas
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beki: kargi, kargi, xumrobac ar SeiZleba?
heklberi: ho da imaze vlaparakobdiT, macivari rom
iWyiteba mecnierebis uknidan
beki: da rom sxvafriv – misi warmoeba da
kvlavwarmoeba iseTive gaugebaria, rogorc,
magaliTad filosofia.. . .
heklberi: cotasTvis aris gasagebi
beki: xo, magram es cota ar aris maTi arsebobis
garantia
heklberi: magram saintereso sxvaa
beki: ra?
heklberi: magaliTad, Tu es ori rame principulad
erTniarad iqceva, ratom akeTebs erTi sagnebs, da
meore ara?
beki: vera
heklberi: qalis saxeli gaTqmevine
beki: iaffasiani CanarTia, amiT Tavs Tavs veravis
moawoneb
heklberi: mere ra, marto Sen unda ixumro?
beki: kargi.. sagnebis da sityvebis keTebas rac Seexeba, xom
giTxari, mecniereba araswori filosofiaa, romelic
cdilobs sagnebis gamravlebiT gaigos TavisTavadgasageboba,
filosofia ki araswori mecniereba, romelic
TavisTavadgasagebSi CaRrmavebas cdilobs, da amiT aseve
amravlebs sagnebs, rogorc ramdenime gverdis win
vlaparakobdiT..
heklberi: mainc ar momwons Seni axsna – Seni axsniT ar
mesmis, rogoraa rom teqnika da sityva gamodinareoben
raRac msjelobidan?
beki: anu, macivari da leqsi?
heklberi: ho
beki: eg saintereso kavSiria – rogor mravldebian
sityvebi da sagnebi.. Tavidan msjelobebs zedapiruli da
Sedegobrivi kavSiri unda hqonodaT sagnebTan – Toxis da
najaxis gamogonebas, amas paleontologiac gvidasturebs,
ar unda hqonoda metafizikuri msjelobebi wanamZRvrebad –
es msjelobebi, rom najaxi viRac RmerTma gamosWeda da
mere misca adamianebs, post-najaxum unda gaCeniliyo
heklberi: magram macivris SemTxvevaSi ase xom ar aris –
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beki: ar damimTavrebia – post-naJaxum unda
gaCeniliyo saRi azriT, magram pirveli najaxi iseTi
mouxerxebeli da uazro iqneboda, mxolod
saritualod Tu gamoiyenebdnen da mere moixvew-
daixveweboda rogorc yovledRiurobaSi
gamosayenebeli
heklberi: iseve rogorc pirvel macivars samxedro-
samecniero daniSnuleba Tu eqneboda da Semdeg
moxdeboda misi samzareuloebSi dadgma..
beki: albaT ho.. Cven rom gvgonia, rom najaxi da
Toxi TavisiT gamogonebulia, xelmarjve ostatebis
mier. es albaT araswori warmodgenaa, najaxs da
Toxs jer ritualuri daniSnuleba unda hqonoda,
da mere unda gadasuliyo sayofacxovrebo nivTebis
kategoriaSi
heklberi: hoda mivediT im daskvnamde, rom
mecniereba, miuxedavad imisa, rom struqturulad da
socialuri arsebobis wesiT ar gansxvavdeba
filosofiisagan, da sxva msgavsi saqmianobebidan,
yoveldRiur aRqmaSi warmatebuli saqmianobaa, raki misi
Sedegi teqnikaa
beki: sxvanairad rom vTqvaT, is rac xels gviSlis
mecniereba bodvad da gonebrivi uwesrigobis formad
vaRiaroT, aris misi warmatebuli Sedegebi. Tumca, mkacrad
rom daviTvaloT, ramdeni adamiani awarmoebs da ramdeni
resursebi ixarjeba mecnierebis warmoebaze da Semdeg
Sevadarod is teqnikis warmoaebas da kvlavwarmoebas –
albaT Zalian mcire margi qmedebis koeficients miviRebT
heklberi: magram getyvian, rom amis daTvla ar SeiZleba,
rom erTi SexedviT umniSvnelo da uSedego moqmedebebi
saboloo jamSi iZlevian Sedegs
beki: SeiZleba, magram sanam teqnikis warmoeba ar Sewydeba,
da rogorc Cans ar Sewydeba, amas ver gavigebT
heklberi: nu gavigebT mere..
beki: marTalia. xom mivediT daskvnamde, rom adamianis
strquturul moqmedebebs saboloo jamSi erTi da igive
forma aqvT.. da rom es yvela moqmedeba SeiZleba aRvweroT,
rogorc sagnebis warmoebis da gamravlebis procesi
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heklberi: exla xom ar vilaparakoT imaze, rogor
xdeba TviTon am moqmedebebs SigniT es yvelaferi?
beki: jer kargad rom movifiqroT, ra aris sagnebis
warmoebis es ori wesi – erTis mixedviT sagnebis
warmoeba saganSive CaRrmavebiT da faqtiurad, sagnis
“gayofiT” xdeba, meoris mixedviT – arsebulisaTvis
kidev msgavsi sagnebis damatebiT: anu, pirveli
maTgani sxva realobas qmnis da ase amravlebs
sagnebs, meore – imave realobaSi sadac sxva sagnebi
imyofebian
heklberi: anu, filosofia da mecniereba, ara?
beki: eg Zalian gamartivebaa – aseTi dayofa me
mgoni universaluria da yvelanairi dayofis
safuZvelia – adaminebic xom ori tipis arian -
isini, vinc darwmunebulebi arian, rom sakuTar
TavSi naxaven yvealfris Zalebs, da sxvebi, romelic
amisaTvis sxvaTa daxmarebas saWiroeben
heklberi: anu, rogorc mistikosi da Seyvarebuli?
beki: me mgoni kargi magaliTia – mistikosis Sedegi
sxva relobis Seqmnaa, Seyvarebis ki – bavSvebi, anda,
bolos da bolos am samyaroSi axali bmis Seqmna,
seqsualur bmas vgulisxmob . .
heklberi: “bmis” – ra cinikuria, TiTqos ZaRlebze
laparakob
beki: samagierod zusti
heklberi: bavSvebis, iseve, rogorc mecnierebidan teqnikis?
beki: daaxloebiT
heklberi: da yvelaferi SegviZlia davyoT am martivi
xerxiT?
beki: yvelaferi, adamianebi, sistemebi,
heklberi: politikuric?
beki: politikuric
heklberi: magaliTad?
beki: magaliTad, totalitaruli sistema iseTia, romelic
Tavisi arsebobis wyaros Tavis TavSive eZebs, rogorc
ekonomikur, aseve politikur doneze..
heklberi: hi, hi, da demokratiuli, romelic Tavisi
kavSirebis da bmebis gafarToebiT?
beki: cota sasacilod gamoiyureba, magram egrea.. sxva
magaliTic aviRoT
14
heklberi: magaliTad mecniereba.
beki: ki batono – SigniT mimarTuli –
teqstologiebi da literaturaTmcodneobebi, da
gereT mimarTuli - eqsperimentuli da a.S.
heklberi: maTematika?
beki: Teoriuli pirvelebSi, gamoyenebiTi –
meoreebSi...
heklberi: kargi, SeveSvaT axla bmebis Ziebas, ar
jobia isev davubrundeT rogor xdeba najaxebis da
macivrebis keTeba?
beki: modi cotas vimsjeleb: Tuki principulad
erTi da igivea najaxi da macivari, maSin xom unda
davuSvaT isic, rom maTi Seqmnis mizezic erTi da
igive unda iyos
heklberi: modi SegeSvelebi: raki egrea, da rogorc
adre vTqviT, Tu najaxs Tavidan ritualuri
gamoyeneba unda hqonoda, maSin misi wyaro
miTebi/religiebi unda yofiliyvnen.
beki: xoda gavagrZeleb - Tu miTebi da religiebi
najaxebs akeTeben, xolo mecniereba macivrebs
heklberi: xandaxan najaxebsac,
beki: maSin es ambavi ase uda movyveT: jer miTebi
amravlebdnen sagnebs, Semdeg mecniereba. miTebs mecniereba
Caenacvla
heklberi: eseigi, mecniereba mxolod imitom Caenacvla
miTebs, rom ufro warmatebulad da swrafad amravlebs
sagnebs?
beki: ho, ufro sworad, amitom gaxda dominanturi, miTebi
xom ar gamqralan..
heklberi: ar gamqralan, magram sagnebis gamravlebis
funqcia aSkarad mecnierebam CamoarTva..
beki: filosofia ki darCa imad rac iyo
heklberi: an garTulda, ramdenime filosofoss Tu
vkiTxavT
beki: ise, gamodis rom mecniereba mistikosis meTodiT
amuSavebs sakiTxs, da sagnebis gamravlebas - sxva sivrcis
SeqmniT swavlobs
heklberi: da bolos ra Sedegs miviRebT?…
beki: Zalian cota Tu dagvijerebs
15
heklberi: piriqiT rom gveqna?
beki: anu, sagnebis gamravlebiT mivdgomodiT?
heklberi: ho
beki: albaT igives, an rac ukve momxdara –
filosofias saqme aRar aqvso, rom ambobdnen..
heklberi: davbrundeT, ra
beki: ki batono, magram sad?
heklberi: ai iq, najaxebis da macivrebis mizezebze
rom vlaparakobdiT
beki: sadac vTqviT, rom najaxebi da macivrebi
miTebma da mecnierebebma warmoSves?
heklberi: ho
beki: kargi, gavagrZeloT – miTebi ki rogorc
amboben, im socialuri garemos anareklebi arian,
romelSic Cndebian xolme
heklberi: an piriqiT
beki: ra – socialuri garemoebi arian miTebis
anareklebi?
heklberi: amboben
beki: lamazia, magram naklebad sarwmuno. Cven marTalia,
jer miTebs viTvisebT da mere xdeba Cveni garemoSi Sesvla,
magram yoveli miTi raRac garemoSi iqmneba, ase rom
istoriulad jer garemo da mere miTi, Tumca
fsiqologiurad sul piriqiT
heklberi: da rogorc xdeba es arekvla?
beki: sakmaod martivad: is ierarqiuli struqtura,
romlic miTebSia gadmocemuli, gansakuTrebiT kosmogoniur
miTebSi, TiTqmis zustad asaxavs im socialur
struqturas, romlSic am miTebis xalxi cxovrobda
heklberi: SegiZlia momiyve rogor?
beki: rogor ara – ai naxe: yvela kosmogoniuri miTi ase
gamoiyureba - jer aris demiurgi
heklberi: an kvercxi, an ixvi, an sxva rame
beki: ho, mere es kvercxi
heklberi: an demiurgi
beki: iyofa an qmnis, an demiurgi qmnis kvercxs, romelic
iyofa, an kvercxi demiurgs, iyofa da qmnis damxmare
Zalebs, RmerTebs, demonebs, arsebebs..
heklberi: mere?
16
beki: mere es damxmareebi qmnian miwas, xilul
samyaros, Cven rom vicnobT da ase Semdeg. mere
demiurgi marTavs yvelafers amas damxmareebis
saSualebiT..
heklberi: socialuri struqtura?
beki: rom daakvirde, 20, 30, 40 saukunis
ganmavlobaSi kacobrioba am struqturiT cxovrobda
da dedamiwis zogierT adgilebSi exlac ase
cxovrobs _ anu – struqturis saTaveSi dgas
batoni, imperatori, mefe, mas hyavs vasalebi,
romlibic misi saxeliT marTaven saxelmwifos,
sofels, sabatonos…
heklberi: ase martivia?
beki: met-naklebad. es struqtura dResac
SenarCunebulia alag-alag, zogan formalurad,
zogan realurad.. es yvelaze Zveli struqturaa,
romlic yvelaze didxans arsebobda da dResac
arsebobs, alag-alag..
heklberi: ho, magram mecnierebaze amis Tqma SeiZleba? is
xom eqsperimentebzea dafuZnebuli, sando da ueWvel
Sedegebze
beki: aba ra giTxra.. amdeni xnis laparakis, TiTqmis
Tormeti gverdis Semdeg isev eqsperimentis ueWvelobaze
laparakob
heklberi: aba raze unda vilaparako?
beki: ici ra, modi jer isev miTebs da mecnierebebs
davubrundeT, da mere gadavideT eqsperimentebze, es male
moxdeba
heklberi: kargi
beki: es naklebad gavrcelebuli azria, magram mecnierebis
Teoriebi samyaros Sesaxeb socialuri garemos iseTive
anareklia, rogorc miTebi. aba naxe – didi afeTqebis
Teoria gviyveba, rogor warmoSva didma afeTqebam samyaros
oTxi ZiriTadi urTierTqmedeba
heklberi: rogorc didma RmerTma saSualo RmerTebi?
beki: ho, da mere am oTxi ZiriTadi Zalis
urTierTqmedebiT rogor Seiqmna samyaro
heklberi: vaa
17
beki: didi afeTqebis Teoria albaT demiurguli
struqturis bolo Teoriaa.. sxva ufro saintersoa
- atomis planetaruli modeli xom ici?
heklberi: ai, centris garSemo rom brunavs
elenetebi da rame?
beki: ho. eg Teoria maSin Seiqmna, sazogadoebaSi
Sinagani centris da periferiis sttruqturebi ukve
karga xania moqmedebdnen – socialuri struqtura,
sadac zeviT da qveeviT ki ar aris mTavari, aramed
SingiT da gareT – guli SigniTaa, Sesabamisad
mmarTvelobac, periferia – gareT. magram yvelaferi
erTiania da nawilebi ar arian mTelis gareSe. aseTi
strquturisaa magaliTad mecxramete-meoce saukunis
saxelwifo, nacionaluri saxelwmifos ideac am
struqturas efuZneba - mTeli, sadac garkveviT
viciT centri-mamoZravebeli da periferia –
amoZravebuli.
heklberi: kide?
beki: kide.. – axali Teoriebi – samyaros
mravalganzomilebianobas rom aRweren da amboben
rom arseboben sxva ganzomilebebi da samyaroebi – sxva
araferia, Tu ara sainformacio teqnologiebiT da
politikuri ZvrebiT miRebuli mravalfeniani, ucentro
socialuri samyaro, sadac kavSirebis da bmebis realurad
usasrulo SesaZeblobebi arsebobs: politikuri, iseve
rogorc biologiuri samyaro mxolod erTerTia, misgan
faqtiuri damoukideblobiT, Tumca masTan bmaSi, an sulac
bmis gareSe, arseboben sxvadasxva – xelovnebis, religiuri
samyaroebi, sxvadasxva jgufebi, adre rom erT calkeul
saxelmwifoSi marginalurs eZaxodnen da dRes ver daarqmev
amas, radgan aqtualurad arian mTels msoflioSi da
aTasobiT, zogjer ki milionobiT wevrsac iTvlian
heklberi: eg jgufebi xom Zalian fardobiTi iyo,
magaliTad, budistebi CvenTan marginaluri iyo, indoeTSi
centraluri
beki: ho, magram Tanamedrove socialuri samyaro imiT
gamoirCeva, rom yvela es jgufi rogorc calke samyaro ise
arsebobs, Tavisi wesebiT da kanonebiT, ekonomikiT da
kulturiT da ase Semdeg. me SeiZleba davrCe Cems
samyaroSi, SeiZleba erTdroulad ramdenimeSi vixcovro.. es
18
samyaro mravacentriania da uperiferio.. me rom
periferia mgonia, SeiZleba sxva socialuri
samyaros centri aRmoCndes da ase usasrulod..
heklberi: da Teoriebi, romlebic amboben..
beki: ho, romlebic amboben, rom es samyaro ar
aris erTaderTi, rom es adamiani ar aris erTaderTi
vinc azrovnebs – cxovelebic azrovneben da iseve
cxovroben, rogorc adamianebi – uyvarT, brazoben,
fiqroben, da ase Semdeg – am globaluri
socialuri struqturis anareklia.
heklberi: albaT isic ar aris SemTxveviTi, aseTi
Teoriebi iq rom viTardeba, sadac am globaluri
struqturis kvali kargad Cans – aSS-Si, inglisSi..
beki: sainterso azria
heklberi: ise me mgoni marTali xar.. kargad rom
gavaanalizoT, Toma akvinelis Sromebis ganxilvis
da daskvnebis struqtura SeiZleba velebis Sesaxeb
Tanamedrove Teoriebsac ki daemTxves
beki: angelozebi da velebi? ratomac ara, es xom
ukve gaakeTa viRacam..
heklberi: Zalian ki gagvitaca am kavSirebis danaxvam, magram
igive unda giTxra, rac cota gverdis win giTxari –
eqsperimentebis da dakvirvebebs ra vuyoT?
beki: axsna martivia – mecnieri uyurebs eqsperimentis an
dakvirvebis Sedegs da masSi arsebul konsrtuqcias
usadagebs am Sedegis gadmocemas, da meti araferi..
heklberi: sul araferi?
beki: TiTqmis
heklberi: anu, ambob, rom eqsperimentis da dakvirvebis
Sedegsac socialuri struqtura gansazRvravs?
beki: ho, magram martivad ara, gaxsovs, cota gverdis win
rom vTqviT – sagnebis gamravlebis mimarTuleba – Tuki es
axsna ar adgeba sagnebis gamravlebas, maSin sxva, ufro
gamosadegi axsnaa mosaZebni..
heklberi: Sen ambob, Tu Cveni sazogadoebis struqtura
Seicvala, samyaroc Seicvleba?
beki: sinamdvileSi ara, Tumca ra aris sinamdvile?
heklberi: uf, uf
beki: rogorc aris, ufro zusti iqneba – smayaros
aRwera, fenomenologia Seicvleba
19
heklberi: da maSasadame samyaroc.. magram
sazogadoeba xom met-naklebad globalurad unda
Seicvalos, misi gaziareba rom met-naklebad
absoluturi gaxdes..
beki: marTalia, ase unda moxdes, da es rogorc
xdeba... amaze SeiZleba yovel konkretul SemTxvevaSi
tomebi daiweros..
heklberi: kvlevis saintereso Temaa – magaliTad
rogor moxda atomis planetaruli modelis
aRmoCena – socialuri cvlilebebi, ramac es
ganapiroba.. magaria
beki: ki, magram safrTxilo – vulgarul
sociologizmSi SeiZleba gadavarde.. Tanac – es
kvleva sakmaod rTulia – unda moaxerxo aerido
martivi kavSirebis danaxvas... meore mxriv, SeiZleba
es sulac ar iyos saWiro da SemovifargloT
daSvebiT, rom socialuri garemo ise Sedis
mecnierSi rom mas arc ekiTxeba
heklberi: ase..?
beki: ho, ase ufro advilia.. Tanac isic unda
gaviTvaliswinoT, rom konkretuli mecnieri konkretul
aRmoCenas SeiZleba, da namdviladac, sulac ar akeTebs
sagnebis gamravlebaze mimarTulobiT da piriqiT,
samyaroebis Seqmnas cdilobs, sagnebis bunebaSi CaRrmavebiT
heklberi: esec unda iyos.. yvela mecnieri ar aris sagnebis
gamravlebaze, anu, damxmareebis moxmobaze mimarTuli, iseve,
rogorc yvela filosofosi – sakuTar Tavze
beki: marTali xar.. Cven yovelTvis adamianebad vrCebiT, da
gareT mimarTuloba sagnebis gamravlebaze, Tu SigniT –
samyaroebis Seqmnaze – an Cvens bunebaSi Zevs, an Cvens mier
Seqmnili sakuTari Tavia..
heklberi: eseigi me an samyaroebs vqmni, an sagnebs
vamravleb?
beki: albaT yoveli konkrtuli adamini orives akeTebs –
ubralod masSi romelime sWarbobs xolme
heklberi: CemSi?
beki: rogorc avtori gadawyvets
20
cxovelebi da sxva RvTiuri arsebebi
di: Cunis provinciaSi gubernatorma mglebze
nadiroba gamoacxada
TeTri orqidea: ratom?
di: bavSvebs dasxmian Tavs
TeTri orqidea: bevri?
di: ara, erTi
TeTri orqidea: mere erTi mgelis gamo yvelaze
nadiroba?
di: ara, sxva drosac awuxebdnen mosaxleobaso
TeTri orqidea: aaaaa
TeTri orqidea: raRac dafiqrdi
di: isev avtorze – aba ase dawyebulma dialogma
sanamde unda migviyvanos
TeTri orqidea: ra ici ra unda, ras gaigeb..
di: morCi axla avtoris yovlisSemZleobaze
laparaks, Tan taniT vgrZnob, rom sul sxva rame
unda Cvengan
TeTri orqidea: taniT?
di: ho, ra iyo, ro ar maqvs imitom, Tumca, meore mxriv, arc
piri maqvs da arc cnobiereba
TeTri orqidea: piri da cnobiereba igulisxmeba, tanis qona
ki ara
di: me mgoni tanis qonac igulisxmeba, yovel SemTxvevaSi
Cveni avtoris mier mainc
TeTri orqidea: hoda, Tu gvaqvs tani, davubrundeT Cvens
mglebs
di: ras ambobdi, mglebis gamarTleba rom gindoda?
TeTri orqidea: iseTs arafers, ubralod ramdenime ambavia –
jer erTi, mgeli Tu nadirobs adamianebis sacxovreblis
axlos, iq ar cxovrobs, aramed maqsimalurad Sors, meorec
– yvela mgeli ar nadirobs Sinaur cxovelze, aramed
mxolod dasustebulebi an xrovidan gamogdebulebi
di: ufro advili rom aris Sinaur cxovelebze nadiroba
imitom?
TeTri orqidea: ho, da kidev – aqedan gamomdinare, Tu Cunis
provinciis gubernatori axlo-maxlo tyeebSi sadamsjelo
operaciebs moawyobs, didi Sansia iseTi mglebi daxocos,
21
romlebic saqonelze da adaminebze TavdasxmaSi ar
arian damnaSaveeebi
di: anu, swored iseTi mglebi, romlebic swored
tyeSi nadirobiT irCenen Tavs da amitom tyis
mezobeli soflidan ar elodebian Tavdasxmas?
TeTri orqidea: ho, da Sedegad miviRebT, rac ufro
meti Sinaur saqonelze aramonadire mgels moklaven,
miT ufro gaizrdeba iseTi mglebis ricxvi, romlebic
adaminebze an Sinaur saqonelze inadireben
di: da maTi mokvla sul ufro da ufro auclebeli
gaxdeba
TeTri orqidea: marTali xar, Sedegad – Cunis
provinciis gubernatori imperators, an sxva,
mezobeli provinciebis gubernatorebs sTxovs
daxmarebas da mgeli Cunis provinciis tyeSi saerTod
aRar iqneba
di: mesmis, rom barbarosul rames vityvi, magram rom
ar iyos, ra moxda mere?
TeTri orqidea: tyeSi balansi dairRveva
di: ra – balaxismWamelebi gamravldebian, da Sinaur
saqonels saZovari aRar eqneba?
TeTri orqidea: ase primitiulad ar aris saqme – bolos da
bolos im balaxismWamelebs, romc gamravldnen – adamianebi
dauregulireben raodenobas
di: aba raSia problema – ratom unda vinaRvlo viRac
mglebze – meyoleba erTi-ori zooparkSi an rame dacul
teritoriaze da morCa
TeTri orqidea: problema imaSia, rom balaxismWamelebi
ubralod ki ar gamravldebian – gadagvarebas daiwyeben
di: es rogor? aaa, tyis sanitari, tyis eqimi da tyis
mesaidumle
TeTri orqidea: eg tyis sanitroba bevrs pirdapiri
mnISvnelobiT esmis – anu, mgeli susts da avadmyofs Wams.
sinamdvileSi saqme ufro rTuladaa da sainteresod
di: aba miTxari
TeTri orqidea: ai geubnebi – jer cota Soridan unda
daviwyo – tyeSi cxovelebi erTian sistemas warmoadgenen –
isini erTmaneTTan Rrma da saintereso kavSirSi arian, rac
ar amoiwureba SeWma-gaqceviT..
22
di: xom vTqvi – sanitroba meTqi
TeTri orqidea: macale – magaliTad – rodesac
tyeSi mgeli aRar aris, xarirmebis asaki ganuzomlad
izrdeba – sanam mgeli tyeSia, is Semodgomis
Sejvarebebis Semdeg dasustebul xarirmebze nadirobs
da amiT xels uwyobs meore wels axalgazrda
xarirmebis gamefebas
di: anu, axalgazrda xarixmebs saSualeba eZleva
Sejvardnen furebTan?
TeTri orqidea: ho, nu mawyvetineb.. roca aseTi rame
ar xdeba, ufro asakovani xariremi axalgazrda
xarirmebs gamravlebis saSualeba ar aZlevs, da rac
ufro berdeba xariremi, met ufro arasrulyofil
STamomavlobas iZleva
di: ki magram, odesme xom mokvdeba?
TeTri orqidea: rogor ar mokvdeba, magram am
periodSi yofili axalgazrda xar-irmebi ukve
gaZlierebulni arian da isini ki ikaveban mis adgils,
magram maT ubralod ar ician rogor unda
Sejvardnen, arc undaT
di: ra impotentebi xdebian?
TeTri orqidea: faqtiurad, xoda, miuxedavad faqtiuri
impotenciisa, rac xandaxan ananizmSi gamoixateba,
axalgazrda xarixmebs ar uSveben furirmebTan – TviTonac
ver Svebian verafers da arc sxvas ar aZleven amis uflebas.
mere igive meordeba – beberi xariremi kvdeba da mis adils
axalgazrda, iseTive praqtikulad impotenti xariremi
ikavebs. Sesabamisad, maTi ricxvi, Tuki jer izrdeba mglebis
amowyvetasTan erTad, mere mcirdeba
di: es marTla ubedurebaa
TeTri orqidea: magram ara erTaderTi – irmebis ricxvis
gazrda sxva saxeobebis gaqrobas iwvevs – magaliTad, zogan
arCvi irmis naZovarze Zovs. rodesac irmebis ricxvi
izrdeba, arCvis adgili ubralod qreba da isic qreba xolme
di: egec ar aris mTlad didi ubedureba, zooparkSi
gveyoleba
TeTri orqidea: sxa ramec xdeba – ZaRlebi Sedian tyeebSi
da mere naxe Sen adamianebze Tavdasxmebi – Tan ZaRlebi
yvela ZaRlis msgavss ejvarebian – ase rom male tyeSi
ZaRlebis meti arcerTi mtacebeli aRar cxovrobs.. jer es
23
xrovebi tyeSi anadgureben cxovelebs, mere Sinaur
saqonelze gadadian
di: ra mglebi ar anadgureben?
TeTri orqidea: iq saintereso sistemaa Seqmnili –
tyeSi xom mglebis ramdenime ojaxi cxovrobs – xoda
maT Soris aris sasazRvro zonebi – anu, teritoria,
sadac ojaxis arcerTi wevri ar Sedis. ai, swored iq
mSobiaroben irmebi
di: sul aravin ar Sedis?
TeTri orqidea: marto ojaxebidan gagdebuli mglebi
– an Zalian bebrebi, an Zalian axalgazrdebi..
di: eseigi, es Seni mglebi sulac ar arian
angelozebi..
TeTri orqidea: iseve rogorc yvela sxva cxoveli
da adamiani – isani ubralod sainteresoebi arian
di: gareul ZaRlebze vlaparakobdiT - magaTac
daxocaven
TeTri orqidea: eg aris pasuxi? – yvelaferi unda
davxocoT da probleba aRar gveqneba
di: magas geubnebi, Sen rac ar unda mimtkico, rom mgeli
saintreso cxovelia, mand mainc ar aris argumenti, ratom
ar unda myavdes isini mxolod zooparkSi da ratom unda
iyvnen tyeSi
TeTri orqidea: marto mgeli ara, yvela cxoveli
sainteresoa – ici, Teoria arsebobs, rom iremi imitom ki
ar xdeba dominanti – ase eZaxian xarixems romelsac
haramxana hyavs da situacias akontrolebs – rom didi
rqebi aqvs – imitom aqvs didi rqebi, rom dominantia.
di: anu, jer xdeba dominanti da mere ezrdeba
gansakuTrebuli rqebi? sainteresoa, magram cxovelebis
mxolod zooparkSi yolis sawinaamRdego argumenti mainc ar
aris
TeTri orqidea: me ar maqvs pasuxi
di: samagierod me maqvs
TeTri orqidea: vau
di: marTla
TeTri orqidea: aba miTxari
di: saqme imaSia, rom arc raodenobis Semcireba, arc
egreTwodebuli auTenturoba, arc raRaca balansis rRveva
24
ar SeiZleba iyos cxovelebis daxocvis an mxolod
zooparkSi yolis sawinaamRdego argumenti, miT
umetes, rom isini TandaTan adamianis Seqmnilni
xdebian
TeTri orqidea: es rogor? imas gulisxmob, rom
adamianebi TandaTan klonirebas da genetikur
dublirebas iswavlian da yvela cxovels genetikuri
inJineriiT Seqnian? rogorc eleqtronul cxvrebze
ocnebis SemTxvevaSi?
di: ara, egere sulac ara. Cveni garemo dRes da ukve
didi xania cvlilebas ganicdis. Tu adre, ramdenime
saukunis da saukuneebis win msoflio SeiZleba
warmovidginoT rogorc udabnoebis, tyeebis da
wylebis uwyveti sistema, sadac alag alag mosCans
adaminebiT dasaxlebuli adgilebi dRes saqme
piriqiTaa – msoflios gars ekvris adamianTa
dasaxlebebis qseli, sadac alag-alag moCans
cxovelebis samyofeli adgilebi
TeTri orqidea: mere ra?
di: mere is, rom adamianTa dasaxlebebi ara marto
gamravldnen, aramed, barierebic ki Seqmnes cxovelebis
samoZrao sivrceebs Soris.
TeTri orqidea: Sesabamisad, adamianTa samyaros ganviTarebis
Sedegad cxovelTa
di: da ara marto cxovelTa
TeTri orqidea: ho, da ara marto cxovelTa, mcenareTac,
samyaro gaxda dayofili – isini ver urTierToben ise,
rogorc saukuneebis winaT.
di: Tu adamianisaTvis maSin problema ar iyo, an nakleb
problemuri iyo, tyeebSi gamaval bilikebze emogzaura, dRes
sruliad warmoudgenelia jixvebis jogi, romlic
saavtoobilo trasaze moZraobs an afTrebis gundi, qalaqs
rom kveTs..
TeTri orqidea: mere aqedan ra gamomdinareobs?
di: is, rom Tuki bolo dromde cxovelTa samyaros
SenarCuneba-ganaxleba sxvadasxva qve-ekosistemebis
urTierTqmedebiT xdeboda. is Tanamedrove saxe, romlsac
dRes cxovelTa da mcenereTa samyaro iRebs, am
urTierTqmedebis gareSea datovebuli
25
TeTri orqidea: ise, jobia am saqmeSi mcenareebs nu
gavrevT, imitom rom maT damtkicebuli funqcia aqvT
– romelic Jangbadis warmoeba/kvlavwarmoebas exeba,
ase rom maTi mofrTxileba sruliad gazomili,
awonili da pragmatulia
di: albaT marTali xar. hoda imas vambobdi, rom
ekosistemebs Soris urTierTqmedebebis saSualeba
aRar aris – urbanistuli da araurbanistuli
sistemebi amas dRiTi dRe ufro SeuZlebels xdian –
iketeba gzebi da sivrceebi romlebic maT
erTmaneTTan akavSirebdnen
TeTri orqidea: mere, sad aris Seni argumentebi?
di: macale. amitom is garemo romelSic cxoveli
cxovrobs xdeba adamianis mier Seqmnili da misi
moqmedebiT gansazRvruli. amitom, adamiani iqceva
pasuxismgeblad im konkretul garemoze, romlSic man
cxovelebi moaqcia
TeTri orqidea: Sen ambob, rom Cveni garemomcveli
bunebac iseTive adamianis Seqmnilia, rogorc qalaqebi
da sxva industriuli kompleqsebi?
di: ho, gansxvaveba ar aris. adamianma iseve Seqmna am bolo
saukuneebis ganmavlobaSi buneba, rogorc qalaqi.
TeTri orqidea: alabT marTali xar – nacionaluri parkebi
da nakrZalebi amis magaliTebia
di: hoda nacionalur parkebamdec mivediT – ara marto
nacionalur parkSi arsebuli mcenareebi da mdinareebi
xdebian adaminis produqti – is cxovelebic, romlebic
SigniT arian
TeTri orqidea: anu, adamianebi ise gaxdnen cxovelebis da
saerTod bunebis Semoqmedebi, rom verc ki gaiges?
di: ho, da es albaT erTaderTi ramea Tanamedrove samyaroSi,
rac adaminebis RvTiur bunebaze miuTiTebs
TeTri orqidea: es rogor?
di: rogor da – rogorc Zvel aRTqmaSia – RmerTma Seqmna
kaci da qali, da Semdeg ise gamovida, kaci da qali RmerTis
nebis winaamRdeg wavidnen
TeTri orqidea: mere ra SuaSia aq cxovelebi?
di: mTlad pirdapiri da martivi analogia ar aris – adamini
qmnida da qmnis manqanebs, mecnierebas, teqnologiebs, wers
wignebs, da uecrad, Tuki aq es sityva SeiZleba gamoiyeno –
26
aRmoCndeba rom man buneba da cxovelTa samyaro
Seqmna – anu, isini uecrad mTlianad aRmoCndnen masze
damokidebulni da misgan gamomdinareebi
TeTri orqidea: iseve, rogorc amas Zveli aRTqma
gviyveba – RmerTi samyaros qmnida da Sedegad
adamianebis samyaro miiRo
di: aq Teologiuri SekiTxvebis legioni SeiZleba
gaCndes – magaliTad, icoda Tu ara RmerTma winaswar
ra moxdeboda Tu ara, Tu icoda, sad aris
Tavisufali neba... magram axla es ar gvainteresebs,
mTavaria RvTiuri bunebis maxasiaTebeli
ganvsazRvroT: rodesac akeTeb rames da is, rac Seni
keTebidan ar gamomdinarebs – warmoiqmneba, iwyebs
arsebobas da yuradRebis da zrunvis obieqti xdeba
TeTri orqidea: mere eg ra argumentia?
di: is argumentia, rom teqnologiebis da qalaqebis
ganviTarebis procesSi, ise, rom Cven arc gvifiqria,
cxovelTa samyaro Cveni zrunvis obieqti gaxda –
Seicvala buneba da Secvala Cveni bunebac – Cven,
adamianebma miviReT Cveni RvTiurobis
damadasturebeli niSani da aseve – cxovelebis RvTiurobis
damadasturebeli niSanic miviReT
TeTri orqidea: cota zedmeti tvinis Wyleta xom ar aris?
di: macale. cxovelebi aRarasodes aRar iqnebian iseTebi,
rogorebic isini manamde iyvnen – damoukideblebi da
planetis mflobelebi, iseve, rogorc adamianebi verasodes
veRar dabrundebian edemis baRSi
TeTri orqidea: Tumca, es dabruneba xom idealia –
utopisturi Tu rogoric ginda..
di: aseve cxovelebis SemTxvevaSi – iseve, rogorc Cven
cvdilobT maqsimalurad aRvadginoT bunebis istoriuli
saxe – rodesac mTeli planeta erTi sistema iyo, qalaqebis
da saavtomobilo gzebis barierebis gareSe, aseve aris
edemis baRi adamianebis mSvidi da urTierTsargebliani
cxovrebis arqetipi
TeTri orqidea: mere aqedan gamomdinareobs rom cxovelebi
ar unda vxocoT da vanadguroT, rom isini mxolod
zooparkebSi ar unda gvyavdes?
di: ki, am midgomaSia principuli gansxvaveba – cxovelebis
saxeobebis SenarCunebisaTvis principuli mniSvneloba ara
27
aqvs sad iqneba es saxeoba – zooparkSi Tu
nacionalur parkSi, magram Cveni RvTiurobis
dasadastureblad aqvs – Cveni pasuxismgeblobaa maTi
dRevandeli arseboba, da Tu marTla gvaqvs RvTiuri
buneba – Cveni zrunvis sagnad cxovelebis tyeebSi
yofna unda darCes
TeTri orqidea: ra ucnauria – TiTqos adamianis
RvTiuri bunebis damadasturebel argumentebs
Teologia, gawie-gamowie da filosofia mainc unda
eZebdes – yovel SemTxvevaSi tradiciulad asea, exla
ki ucbad amis damdasturebeli ekologia da sxva
sabunebismetyvelo mecnierebebi aRmoCdnen
di: yvela ara
TeTri orqidea: ra mniSvneloba aqvs – TavisTavad
Zalian momxiblvelia – Cveni RvTiuroba, da aseve,
cxovelebis RvTiuroba mtkicdeba iq, sadac ar unda
mtkicdebodes – pragmatuli da TiTqosada civi
mecnierebis sferoSi
di: ase gamovida – Zveli aRTqmis aseTi gageba
avtors rom ar moewonos?
TeTri orqidea: Tavs nu isuleleb – Zalian avtonomiuri
xom ar ggonia Seni Tavi
di: ar mgonia, magram axla misi namdvili avtorobis
damadasturebeli xom is iqneba, ramdenad gagviSvebs is da
ramdenad gamovalT misi kontrolidan
TeTri orqidea: ase gamova, rom sxva da sxva avtorebis
survili, daasabuTon, rom teqstebi damoukideblad
cxovroben, sonamdvileSi emasaxureba ambiciur mizans:
aCvenon, rom avtorebi RmerTebi arian
di: da Sesabamisad, avtorebis gaqrobisken ki ar aris es
mcdelobebi mimarTuli, aramed misi axali agebisaken da
yvela avtoris RvTiur arsebebad qcevisaken..
TeTri orqidea: SeiZleba, magram es xom Zalian rTulia –
Cvens cxvrebs – anu, cxovelebs xom ar davubrundeT, kidev
erTxel rom vTqvaT, ratom ar unda daxocos Cunis
provinciis gubernatorma mglebi
di: es ukve vTqviT – amiT is Tavis mizans – Sewyvitos
mglebis soflebze Tavdasxmebi, ver miaRwevs, piriqiT,
SeiZleba gazardos kidec TavdasxmaTa ricxvi
TeTri orqidea: da sul rom amoxocos?
28
di: sadRac albaT esec moxdeba, magram am SemTxvevaSi
Cven sul ufro da ufro davSordebiT Cvens RvTiur
bunebas – anu, Cven risi Seqmnac ar gvifiqria
TeTri orqidea: ra Rrma Teologiaa – avtori dadna
albaT – raze ar ufiqria RmerTs da ra ar undoda
– rogori inteleqtualuri gansxvavebaa
di: es Seni sityvebi ar aris, avtors Sercxva
zedmeti seriozuloba da meti araferi
TeTri orqidea: albaT, aba me amas ra maTqmevinebda
di: anu, Cveni risi Seqmnac ar gvifiqria, imaze
pasuxismgeblobas da zrunvas
TeTri orqidea: da ufro zustad rom vTqvaT?
di: erTic unda davamato, sanam am dazustebaze
gadavidodi - Cven rogorc konkretul adamianebs
SegviZlia vizrunoT cxovelebze, magram iseTive
Sedegs rom mivaRwioT, rogorsac RmerTma miaRwia
Cvenze zrunviT, mxolod erTad SegviZlia amis
gakeTeba
TeTri orqidea: anu, Cven mxolod erTobliv zrunvaSi
vxdebiT is rac varT, anu, mxolod erTobliv zrunvaSi
SegviZlia Sedegis miRweva
di: me mgoni sakmaod garkveviT vTqviT, ratom ar unda
daxoco cxovelebi tyeebSi, magram igives Tqma SeiZleba
Cveni, adaminebis moqmedebebis sxva Sedegebze – magaliTad,
mawanwala, an moSimSile bavSvebze
TeTri orqidea: ara mgonia – sakuTar Tavze zrunva ar unda
iyos RvTiurobis niSani – es raRacnairi dazRvevaa, rom
Cveni saerTo mdgomareoba gamovasworoT, ar davuSvaT
Cvennairebis tanjva – imitom, rom es mere Cven TviTon ar
Semogvibrundes
di: albaT marTali xar – RvTiurobis namdvili dasturi –
iseT rameze zrunvaa, romlis gaqrobac Sen arafers ar
dagaklebs, ar imoqmedebs Senze – aranairad – iseve, rogorc
RmerTze ar imoqmedebs Cveni ararseboba – rac ar unda
Tqvan Tanamedrove filosofosebma
TeTri orqidea: mxolod cxovelebze zrunviT varT Cven
RviTiuri arsebebi, da mxolod cxovelebi arian is RvTiuri
arsebebi, romelTa saSualebiTac Cven aseTebi vxdebiT
29
di: anu, es Cveni, rogorc kacobriobis arCevani unda
gaxdes?
TeTri orqidea: me ara mgonia, rom kacobrioba unda
Seikribos, erTad davjdeT da arCevnebi movawyoT..
di: me ase vulgarulad ar miTqvams..
TeTri orqidea: movawyoT arCevnebi Tu raze
vizrunoT – sakuTar Svilebze Tu cxovelebze
di: egre arc me mgonia
TeTri orqidea: es ar aris is arCevani romelic
Cvens winaSea – me Svilebs da cxovelebs Soris ki
ar virCev, aramed cxovelebze zrunvasa da ar
zrunvas Soris
di: Tumca, xom SeiZleba afrikis romelime
saxelmwifoSi moSimSile xalxs, SimSiliT
mucelgasiebul bavSvebs ise Sexedo, rogorc
cxovelebs da amitom moindomo maTze zrunva..
TeTri orqidea: ratom – Tu ifiqreb, rom maTi
gaqrobiT Sen arafri dagakldeba?
di: ho, isini imdenad Sors arian, rom gind yofilan
gind ara
TeTri orqidea: me ara mgonia rom aseTi analogia
marTebuli iyos – Sexedo moSomSile bavSvebs rogorc
gadaSenebis piras misul cxovelebs..
di: mesmis rom cinikuria da gamosavali ar aris - rogorc
ki aseTi xedva giCndeba, iq zrunva qreba
TeTri orqidea: magram meore mxriv, Tu sxva gamosavali ar
gaqvs, da moSimSile bavSvebis aRqma zrunvisaTvis,
sazrunvelad, mxolod maSinaa SesaZlebeli, Tu maT Sexedav
rogorc gaqrobis piras misul cxovels?
di: ara mgonia – aq albaT mainc gamoyenebiTi faqtori
erTveba – moSimSile bavSvebs rom vexmarebi, amiT amave dros
vzrdi am bavSvebs, vaswavli maT adamianebs Soris
urTierTobas – amas ki mxolod gamoyenebiTi safuZveli aqvs
– jer erTi Tu isini daxmarebis gareSe davtove,
gadarCenili bavSvebidan didi Sansia Cemi garemos
dauZinebeli mteri miviRo, an iseT epidemias davudo saTave,
rom Cemi myudro da mowyobili sazogadoeba Seiwiros, anda
– iseTi procesebi daiwyos, sulac rom msoflio
dapirispirebaSi gadaizardos
30
TeTri orqidea: egre xom cxovelebzec SeiZleba
vTqva – rom ar movuaro – gamravldebian, SegvWamen,
avadmyofobebs gadagvdeben
di: saqme imaSia, rom me moraluri kanonebi uflebas
maZlevs cxovelebi davxoco da mxolod zooparkSi
myavdes, xolo igive ar SemiZlia gavakeTo moSimSile
bavSvebis mimarT
TeTri orqidea: ra sindisi Segawuxebs?
di: ara, bevri adamiani aRmoCndeba msoflioSi
romelic amis gamo gadawyvets damartyas da
gamanadguros – an moraluri mosazrebebiT, anda –
imis gamo rom Cemi Zalauflebis miReba moundeba
TeTri orqidea: mokled, msoflioSi arsebuli
akrZalvebis da daSvebebis sqeli ar gaZlevs amis
saSualebas
di: da Tu ar maZlevs amis saSualebas, ese igi
SeuZlebelia
TeTri orqidea: Tumca, garemos damcvelebi cdiloben
aseTve qseli Seqmnan cxovelebis garSemoc
di: met-naklebi warmatebebiT – saboloo jamSi
warumateblad, radgan SeiZleba damarwmuno, rom cxovelebi
ar unda gavanadguro, magram damarwmuno imaSi, rom
cxovelebis ganadgureba me TviTon memuqreba rameTi –
SeuZlebelia
TeTri orqidea: amitom, rac ar unda ganvaviTaroT teqnika
da teqnologia, fizika da biologia, dRes Cveni RvTiurobis
damadasturebeli mxolod cxovelebze zrunvaa..
di: aseve, cxovelebis RvTiurobis damadasturebeli, magram
sityva "dRes" ratom gamoiyene?
TeTri orqidea: imitom, rom dRes es aris Cveni RvTiurobis
damadasturebeli, guSin, anu, sxva dinastiis mmarTvelobis
dros – SeiZleba sxva iyo..
di: ra saqme gauCine exla Teologebs, vinc dagijerebs, –
unda dajdnen exla da qeqon teqstebi, ra iyo Cveni
RvTiurobis damadasturebeli asi, aTasi wlis win
TeTri orqidea: Tumca, SeiZleba arc araferi..
di: SeiZleba arc araferi, magram maSin xom ucnaur
daskvnamde mivdivarT, rom maSin RvTiurobis
damadasturebeli ubralod ar gvqonda
31
TeTri orqidea: an, Zalian banaluri xom ar viqnebi
rom vTqva, rom – SeiZleba arc gvWirdeboda
di: ara mgonia
TeTri orqidea: hoda vambob – SeiZleba arc
gvWirdeboda
di: da axla gvWirdeba?
TeTri orqidea: ratomac ara
di: ratom exla da ara maSin?
TeTri orqidea: imitom, rom.. imitom rom bevri
pasuxi arsebobs
di: magaliTad?
TeTri orqidea: magaliTad, ise davSordiT RmerTs
mxolod exla dagvWirda da imitom, an kidev –
mxolod exla gavxdiT Rirsebi, rom RvTiurobis
niSani SegveZina.. Cven da cxovelebsac
di: anu, RvTiurobis niSani marto, avtonomiurad ar
SeiZineba?
TeTri orqidea: rogorc Cans, exla sxvanairad
SeuZlebelia
di: exla?
TeTri orqidea: kargi, Cvens droSi.
32
meSvide
tomi: guSin qalaqSi rom Semovedi aRarc imdeni
nangrevi iyo da aRarc damwvari xorcis suni. rame
Seicvala omis Semdeg?
brigita: cota Caiwie. albaT. quCebic ikirwyleba da
es Cveni zeimic aRar aris mxolod msxverplis
Sewirvis msgavsi. xalxic ufro imedianad dadis da
gamoiyureba.
tomi: Tqven albaT amas demokratiis mmarTvelobas
gindaT rom umadlodeT.
brigita: ratomac ara. magram me ufro am
mmarTvelobas liberalurs davarqmevdi. anu, gan-
Tavisuflebaze mimarTuls.
tomi: xo magram ra gansxvavebaa, demokratiuls
umadli Tu liberalurs?
brigita: didi gansxvavebaa: liberaluri niSnavs
Tavisuflebaze da gan-Tavisuflabaze mimarTuls..
tomi: e.i. revoluciurs?
brigita: SeiZleba magasac. demokratiuli niSnavs iseT
kanonebze mimarTuls, romlebic qmnian Tavisuflebis,
arCevanis Tavisuflebis safuZvlebs da ara TviTon
Tavisuflebas.
tomi: es gansxvaveba Tavisuflebis safuZvlebsa da
Tavisuflebas Soris banalurad da araarsebiTad meCveneba.
ara mgonia didi mniSvneloba hqondes, Tavisuflebas flob
Tu Tavisuflebis safuZvelze migiwvdeba xeli.
brigita: me kidev ara mgonia, rom am sakiTxSi garkvevis
gareSe win waviwioT. sad unda waviwioT? win an arsebobs an
ara.
tomi: rogor ara, arCevani xom gvaqvs, an win waviwioT Cvens
msjelobaSi Tavisuflebis da Tavisuflebis safuZvlebis
Sesaxeb, an ara.
brigita: es arCevani iluzorulia. Tu win waviwevT,
waviwevT, Tu ara, maSin ara.
tomi: eg raRas niSnavs? mxolod imas rasac niSnavs, Tu sxva
ramesac?
33
brigita: ra Tqma unda imas sul ara, rom me
fatalisti var an am wuTSi Semipyro yovlis
msWvalavma fatalisturma gawyobam.
tomi: aba ras?
brigita: Tundac imas, rom am momentSi avtori
gansazRvravs Cvens viTomda Tavisufal nebaze
damyarebul dialogs.
tomi: aseTi banaloba..
brigita: ra, jer ar miTqvams?
tomi: rogor ityodi, rodesac bundovani grZnoba
mawuxebs, rom cxrameti-oci kiTxva-pasuxis win
gavCndiT
brigita: da Cveni mogonebebi im momentSi xdeba
warsulis wili rodesac maT mogonebas daviwyebT
ramdenime kiTxva-pasuxis Semdeg..
tomi: an ar daviwyebT..
brigita: da maSin mogonebebic aRar gveqneba
tomi: magram axla rom vlaparakobT ise, TiTqos
mogonebebi gvqondes
tomi: ki magram ra mianiSnebs imaze rom mogonebebi gvaqvs?
brigita: mxolod analogiebi – ar SeiZleba vlaparakobdeT
da sityvebis mniSvnelobebis gamocdileba ar gvqondes
tomi: da Tu imitacias CavdivarT?
brigita: Tundac. Tuki imitacias CavdivarT, Tu imitacia
srulyofilia, maSin is saimitirebelis igiveobrivia?
tomi: ki magram ori erTnairi rom ar arsebobs?
brigita: aaa, maSin is ori erTi da igive romaa?
tomi: ho.
brigita: maSin is aRar iarsebebs ris imitaciasac vakeTebT
tomi: an Cven
brigita: es ukve mistikaa
tomi: mistika aRar arsebobs
brigita: ratom?
tomi: adgili aRar aqvs, marto wignebi arseboben mistikaze
brigita: aRarc Cvens gverdiT? ai am milze?
tomi: ara mgonia
brigita: ratom? Cveni tani ver itans?
tomi: xo, Cven tans atana ara aqvs..
brigita: moica, moica, veRar gvTargmnian
34
tomi: aris amaSi raRac Soreulad nacnobi.. isev
fsevdomogonebebma Semipyro
brigita: ras makeTebinebs tani
tomi: tani ki ara mzera
brigita: ra gansxvavebaa..
tomi: iseve rogorc mogonebebi, Cveni tanic xom
igulisxmeba
brigita: da Cveni piric
tomi: axla raRa vqnaT? xom ar gveTxova
avtorisaTvis SegveSvas
brigita: mere gamova rame?
tomi: ratomac ara.
brigita: rame iyo?
tomi: rogor ara
brigita: ras ityuebi
tomi: ras ambob, Sen veraferi ver igrZeni?
brigita: Cavardna maqvs mexsierebaSi
tomi: mere eg aris araferi?
tomi: xo magram me amas mxolod axla vgrZnob da ara maSin
brigita: ki magram Tavisufleba?
tomi: ra Tavisufleba?
brigita: SesaZlebelia?
tomi: Tu avtori gvyavs?
brigita: Tu teqstSi varT amaze laparakic zedmetia,
rogori irlandiuri qelexebic ar unda gadavuxadoT
avtors
tomi: da Tu teqsts gareTac varsebobT..
brigita: da RmerTi avtoria? arc maSin.
tomi: aba imas RmerTi avtori egona?
brigita: aba, ra magrad SeeSala..
brigita: aba
tomi: da Tu RmerTi avtori ar aris?
brigita: maSin ufro rTuladaa saqme..
tomi: ratom?
brigita: imitom rom kiTxvas arasworad vsvamT
tomi: eg raRas niSnavs? imas rom pasuxi zedapirzea Tu rame
ufro mniSvnelovans?
brigita: me mgoni rames ufro
35
tomi: ras?
brigita: imas rom kiTxva Cvengan unda daisvas da ara
RmerTisgan
tomi: ratom?
brigita: imitom, rom amocanis amoxsnis
elementaruli pirobaa, rom nacnobidan unda daiwyo
amoxsna da ara ucnobidan
tomi: e.i. ontologiuri, gnoseologiuri da
epistemologiuri..?
brigita: diaxac rom. es xom igivea, erTucnobian
gantolebaSi, magaliTad 7+X=12 12-s ki ar gamoaklo
7 da X miiRo, aramed daiwyo X-is Canacvleba
erTidan da mxolod mexuTe mcdelobaze mixvide
swor pasuxamde.
tomi: ki magram RmerTi xom iqsi ar aris, da arc
adamiani aris iseTive garkveuloba, rogorc Svidi an
Tormeti
brigita: me principze vambob da ara identobaze. me
rac vTqvi, gulisxmobs imas, rom nebismieri avtori -
cinikurad JRers, ara - rodesac RmerTis arsebobis
dasabuTebas cdilobda, sakuTar Tavs warmoaidgenda xolme
RmerTad.
tomi: rac, ar iyo Zneli, is xom avtori iyo..
brigita: marTalia. garda amisa, RmerTis arsebobis
dasabuTebis argumentebi RmerTis arsebobas asabuTeben da
sxvas arafers. Cven ki, Tu sworad vimsjeleT, RmerTis
arseboba erT-erTi Sedegi unda iyos, romelic Cveni
msjelobidan gamova, magram ara erTaderTi.
tomi: ki magram ratom?
brigita: imitom, rom mxolod am SemTxvevaSi gaxdeba
RmerTis arseboba misaRebi da ara sakamaTo, rwmena/codnis
sasworze Camokidebuli.
tomi: im SemTxvevaSic ki, dasabuTeba saeWvo pirobiTobas
rom daemyaros?
brigita: yvela dasabuTeba pirobazea damyarebuli. Tanac is
dasabuTeba, romelic realurad raimes asabuTebs, yovelTvis
saeWvo pirobiTobas emyareba da ara TavsTavad cxads
tomi: anu, Tu asabuTebs ufro mets, vidre es pirobaSi
igulisxmeba?
brigita: ho
36
tomi: anu, verafriT ver vipoviT iseT wanamZRvars,
mTlianad rom utyuari iyos?
brigita: “mTlianad” ras niSnavs ar vici. magram
iseTi wanamZRvari da amosavali mainc unda vipovoT,
romlis uaryofa Zneli iqneba..
tomi: an SeuZlebeli
brigita: SeuZlebeli uaryofisTvis ar arsebobs,
bolos da bolos “ara” yvelafers mieyeneba Tundac
rogorc metafora.
tomi: maSin rogori Zneli?
brigita: Zalian
tomi: mainc rogori?
brigita: iseTi, romlis uaryofac Zalian bevr rames
gaxdis uazrod
tomi: magaliTad?
brigita: magaliTad dialogs, diskusias,
tomi: arsebobas?
brigita: arsebobasac
tomi: arsebobas uaryofs?
brigita: ara, romelic uazros gaxdis
tomi: eg ras niSnavs?
brigita: eg imas niSnavs, rom uaryofa eTikurad unda iyos
SeuZlebeli da ara logikurad
tomi: egeTi rame ra aris?
brigita: unda iyos.. .. iseTi rame, rasac uaryof da azri
aRar eqneba laparakis gagrZelebas
tomi: magaliTad?
brigita: magaliTad Tavisufali neba
tomi: eg swori magaliTia?
brigita: ki. Tu ityvi, rom Tavisufali neba ar arsebobs da
yvelaferi imTaviTve an amTaviTve
tomi: kidev sityvebiT TamaSi, Targmani gaWirdeba
brigita: ara uSavs.. rames moifiqreben. xoda Tu ityvi, rom
yvelaferi imTaviTve an amTaviTve gansazRvrulia, maSin
dialogs an kamaTs azri ara aqvs – Sedegic gansazRvrulia
da Senc, ra azri aqvs kamaTob Tu ara..
tomi: anu, Tu ityvi rom Tavisufali neba ar arsebobs, es
niSnavs, rom yvelaferi gansazRvrulia, da movlenaTa jaWvi,
romlSic Sen cxovrob ucvlelia
brigita: ho, mag SemTxvevSi araferi ar SeiZleba moxdes
37
tomi: yvelaferi ukve moxda da elodeba rom es
momxdari gamovlindeba
brigita: Cven arafris gakeTeba ar SegviZlia, imitom
rom arCevani ara gvaqvs, Tu gvgonia rom gvaqvs, es
iluziaa
tomi: da xar rogorc marioneti
brigita: ratom rogorc?
tomi: marTali xar, aseTi arseboba, Tuki eg
marTalia, samarcxvinoa
brigita: da Sesabamisad, msjelobis gagrZelebas azri
ara aqvs
tomi: imitom, rom es msjelobac, SeiZleba, Seni
dilamdeli kuWis moqmedebiT aris gansazRvruli
brigita: ratom “SeiZleba”? sworedac rom
gansazRvrulia. zustad rom dilandelma yabzobamac
gansazRvra aucileblobiT es dialogi
tomi: Cvenma Tu sxvisam?
brigita: sxvismac, ra Tqma unda
tomi: da yvelaferi aris urTierTgansazRvrulobis
jaWvi da mimdevroba
brigita: swored aq SeiZleba mTeli simZafriT - saSineli
sityvaa, Zmars gavs - daisvas kiTxva, risTvis arsebob..
tomi: eg xom uazro kiTxvaa
brigita: mxolod maSin, Tu fiqrob, rom Tavisufali neba
gaqvs, Tu ara gaqvs, maSin swored rom droulia da azriani
tomi: eseigi, vinc arsebobis mizanze svams kiTxvas, misTvis
Tavisufali neba ar unda arsebobdes
brigita: ho, misTvis arCevani SeuZlebelia, yvelaferi
gansazRvrulia, da Sesabamisad, kiTxulob, Tu es asea, maSin
ratom gaqvs amis cnobiereba?
tomi: xoo, am SemTxveaSi cnobierebis, miT umetes amis
cnobierebis arseboba sadizmia
brigita: aba, boroti RmerTi da ase Semdeg
tomi: aris amaSi raRac komikuri da TviTgvemuri – jer
ambob rom Tavisufali neba ar aris, da mere Tavs iklav amis
gamo
brigita: rac imTaviTve gansazRvrulia
tomi: an maxvilgonier pasuxs scem, rTuli konstruqciebiT
brigita: rac aranakleb komikuria
tomi: mere kaTarzisic dgeba
38
brigita: da dakarguli meore wignic gamogvivida, me
mgoni
tomi: ese igi, Tavisufali nebis arseboba unda iyos
is amosavali romelsac unda daveyrdnoT
brigita: ho
tomi: mandedan gamomdinare, unda amovideT im
daSvebidan, rom Tavisufali neba arsebobs
brigita: da Tu Tavisufali neba arsebobs, maSin
arCevani unda arsebobdes, anu, Cemi arCevani unda
iyos ara iluzoruli, rodesac me mgonia rom
arCevans vakeTeb, sinamdvileSi ki ras gavakeTeb ukve
gansazRvrulia winaswar da me mxolod
ontologiuri nevrozis Casaqrobad mWirdeba
Tavisufali nebis warmosaxva
tomi: aramed Cemi arCevani namdvili arCevani unda
iyos erT, or sam da SeiZleba usasrulo
SesaZleblobebs Soris
brigita: “SesaZleblobebs” albad cudi sityvaa,
radganac im tradiciaSi, romelSic axla avtori
gvwers
tomi: uTargmnelSi nu gadadixar
brigita: im tradiciaSi romelSic Cven axla vlaparakobT
SesaZlebloba SeuZleblobas ufro niSnavs – maxsovs,
SesaZlebloba sinamdviles upirispirdeba..
tomi: aqedan modis yvelaferi – rac sinamdvilea is ver
iqneba SesaZlebloba, aqtualuris da potenciuris
dapirispireba, rac SesaZleblobaa an ganamdvildeba an ara..
da ase Semdeg
brigita: albaT sityva SesaZlebloba ar unda gamoviyenoT..
tomi: da mxolod realobis cnebebiT Tu vilaparakebT. Tuki
me marTlac maqvs arCevani, maSin me realobebs Soris unda
virCevde da ara SesaZleblobebs Soris. mxolod maSin iqneba
arCevani namdvili arCevani Tuki me marTlac virCev or gzas
Soris, virCev marjvniv wavide Tu marcxniv, da ara Tavs
vimSvideb Tavisufali arCevanis iluziiT an sakuTari misiis
ZebniT.
brigita: ise, misiis Zebnas rom davubrundeT – pirovnuli
misiis ideac xom Tavisufali nebis ararsebobis aRiarebidan
gamomdinareobs: Tuki me ar maqvs Tavisufali neba da maqvs
cnobiereba, maSasadame me maqvs misia – anu, raki Tvisufali
39
neba ar arsebobs, Cemi cnobierebis gamarTleba
mxolod Cemi misiaa, da sxva araferi.
tomi: mivediT daskvnamde, rom Tuki misiaze
laparakob, maSin Tavisufali neba ar arsebobs?
brigita: ase gamodis.
tomi: magaram xom SeiZleba erTmaneTSi vurevdeT
misias da arCevans?
brigita: me mainc mgonia, rom misia Tavis TavSi
moicavs sxva SesaZleblobis SeuZleblobas, rodesac
ar arsebobs movlenaTa ganviTarebis sxva gza.
tomi: Tavisufali neba uaryofs misias, magram
aRiarebs arCevans, arCevans or
brigita: an usasrulod bevr
tomi: kargi, an usasrulod bevr SesaZleblobebs
Soris, rodesac orive, an usasrulod bevri
SesaZlebloba Tanabari Zalis aris
brigita: eg xom niSnavs, rom Tuki orive, an
usasrulod bevri SesaZlebloba Tanabari Zalisaa,
maT Tanabari Zala unda SeunarCundeT mas Semdegac,
rac Cven erT-erTs avirCevT
tomi: Cven mxolod maSin gvaqvs arCevanis SesaZleboba, Tuki
yvela arCevani, romelic Cvens winaSe dgas, arsebobs da Cven
mxolod erT-erT gzas vaniWebT upiratesobas.
brigita: xom laparakoben Tanamedrove mecnierebi paralelur
samyaroebze – Cven varT Cvens ganzomilebebSi, arseboben
kidev damatebiTi ganzomilebebi da paraleluri samyaroebi
tomi: maT damajerebel da TviTdajerebul msjelobebSi vin
ar daibneva, bolos iZulebuli xar sityvaze daujero
brigita: magram eg xom meta-enis ambavia da ara sinamdvilis
aRweris?
tomi: ra mniSvneloba aqvs? magram miuxedavad yvelafrisa,
damatebiTi ganzomilebebi axal xedvas Tu gulisxmobs, da
ara paralelur samyaros, xolo paraleluri samyaro Cvens
fizikur samyaroSi iseTive realuri da myaria, rogorc
Cveni da aranairad ar waagavs Tundac Zalian daSorebul
SesaZleblobas
brigita: iqneb swored Zalian daSorebulia da Cvengan
Zalian Sors swored is SesaZlebeli samyaro arsebobs,
romelic ar avirCieT? anu, rac ufro axloa, miT ufro
40
Soria – amitom Cvens uaxloes mezoblobaSi yvelaze
Soreuli SesaZleblobis samyaro mdebareobs..
tomi: eg lamazad gamoiyureba, magram Cvens daSvebaSi
mTavari swored isaa, rom yoveli arCevani
usasrulod bevr samyaroebSi unda moZraobdes, - am
samyaroSi avirCie marcxniv wasvla, sxva samyaroSi
marjvniv wavedi, kidec sxvaSi gavrCedi, kidev sxvaSi
miwaSi CavZveri, kidev sxvagan haerSi avxti da
davekide.. am samyaroebma SeiZleba erTmaneTi
gadakveTon, an daemTxven kidec – zogierT ramdenime
SemTxvevaSi. aseTi ram ki mecnierebis wignebSi ar
weria.
brigita: modi kidev erTxel aRvweroT, ra samyaroa
is, sadac Tavisufali nebaa SesaZlebeli
tomi: es aris samyaro, sadac usasrulod bevri
samyaroebi arsebobs da yvela am samyaroSi Cveni
arCevanis sxvadasxva gzaa ganxorcielebuli. es
warmoudgeneli erTianobaa, romelSic Cveni yoveli
arCevani da misi sapirispiro Tu masgan gansxvavebuli
gza ganxorcielebulia da aqtualurad arsebobs.
brigita: es warmoudgeneli da sulis SemxuTveli/gamxsneli,
es xom erTi da igivea, samyaroa. am samyaroebis ricxvis da
urTierTganlagebis warmodgenisas xvdebi, rom yvela
warmodgena imis mkrTali da uxeiro analogiaa, risi
warmodgenac ginda..
tomi: aq warmodgena nebdeba. es aris samyaros is cneba,
romlsac warmodgeniT ver igeb, da mxolod cnebebis
ganmartebis da urTierTqmedebiT unda dakmayofilde
brigita: me mainc mgonia, rom swored warmodgenis unaria,
romelic gaCvenebs samyaros am suraTis gansakuTrebulobas –
warmodgenis unari ukan ixevs rodesac Tundac sakuTari
Tavisufali nebis samyaroebis danaxvas daapireb, da saerTod
qreba, rodesac am samyaroebSi sxvisi Tavisufali nebis
arsebobas da misi samyaroebis simravles uSveb..
tomi: imisaTvis, rom Tavisufali neba arsebobdes, unda
arsebobdes usasrulod mravali realuri samyaro, sadac
Cemi ar arCeuli gzebi xorcieldeba yoveli konkretuli
arCevanis dros. eseigi, es samyaroebi unda arsebobdes iseve,
rogorc arsebobs is samyaro, romleSic Cven vcxovrobT..
41
brigita: da Tu isini arseboben, anu, arian ara
potenciurni aramed aqtualurni, sad SeiZleba iyos
maTi arseboba?
tomi: yovel SemTxvevaSi ara im samyaroSi, romlis
dakvirvebac da romlis Sesaxebac daskvnebis gakeTeba
SegviZlia
brigita: erTaderTi adgili da unari, romelic am
samyaroebs aqtualurad amyofebs, aqtualobis imave
xarisxiT, rogoric Cvenia, Tavisi sami, oTxi Tu
mravali ganzomilebiT, aris RmerTi
tomi: ai ase miviReT RmerTis dasabuTebis axali gza,
romelic dasabuTebisaTvis Tavisufali nebis
arsebobis daSvebas moiTxovs..
brigita: da moiTxovs or unars: rwmenis (ara
RmerTis) da msjelobis unarebs: rwmena imisa, rom
Tavisufali neba arsebobs, da aqedan gamomdinare –
daskvna, rom RmerTis arseboba aucilebelia, Tuki
Tavisufali neba arsebobs
tomi: es TiTqos advili daskvnaa, magram aqve
Semogveyreba sxva bevri kiTxva, Tundac, is, Zveli,
Sua saukuneobrivi, am SemTxvevaSi – aqvs Tu ara cxovels
Tavisufali neba?
brigita: erTi mxriv, Tu cxoveli arCevans akeTebs – maSin
ki. magram Cven saidan viciT rom cxovels SeuZlia arCevanis
gakeTeba? xom ar aris es arCevanis unari Cvens mier
miwerili misTvis?
tomi: meore mxriv, Tu ar viciT, arc SegviZlia darwmunebiT
vTqvaT, rom maT ara aqvT Tavisufali neba. anu, is, rom Cven
viciT, rom yovel konkretul SemTxvevaSi cxovels SeuZlia
an es gaakeTos an is, migviTiTebs imas, rom cxovels
SeuZlia hqondes Tavisufali neba
brigita: magram Tu es “an es an is” im garemoTi aris
nakarnaxevi, romelSic is cxovrobs?
tomi: garemoTi?
brigita: ho, garemoTi – Tu cxoveli cxovrobs iseT
garemoSi, romelic imdenad ertymis mis yovel hipoTetur
saqciels, rom sxvanairi da ara amnairi moqmedeba marTlac
mxolod potenciaa da arc aqvs Sansi ramenairad iyos
aqtualuri
42
tomi: magram igive SegviZlia vTqvaT adamianzec:
SeiZleba adamianis garemo ise iyos mowyobili, rom
mxolod erTi qcevis ganxorcieleba iyos
SesaZlebeli, da sxva, paraleluri SesaZleblobebi
verc arsebobdnen im konkretuli garemosaTvis.
brigita: am SemTxvevaSi is xom fiqrobs mainc, rom
sxvanairad moqceva SeuZlia?
tomi: SeiZleba ifiqros, magram Tu aranairi realoba
amas ar miuTiTebs, maSic es mxolod fiqri da
iluzia iqneba.
brigita: isev iq davbrundiT, sadac Tavisufali nebis
SesaZleblobaze vlaparakobdiT..
tomi: me mainc mgonia, rom is sxva ambavi iyo. aq Cven
vambobT, rom miuxedavad imisa, rom Teoriulad
Tavisufali nebis arseboba iwvevs RmerTis arsebobas,
amave dros adaminma ise SeiZleba moawyos garemo, rom
masSi sxva SesaZleblobas ar hqondes adgili
brigita: anu, Tu Cven am mowyobaSi
institucionalizacias da kanonebiT Semofargvlas
vigulisxmebT, maSin sacodav Teorias miviRebT, rom adamiani
RmerTs TandaTan atovebinebs samyaros
tomi: ho, maSin RmerTi gamodis raRac gadaSenebis piras
misuli saxeobasaviT, romelic iseve idevneba Cveni
samyarodan, rogorc, magaliTad gepardi, an ixvniskarta..
brigita: eg igivea rac gamyarebis Teoriebi da raRac
evoluciuri ambebi
tomi: ho magram es xom logikuri daskvnaa – Tu adamini
istoriulad TviTonve SemoizRudavs Tavs wesebiT, romlis
mixedviTac mosalodneli qceva erTgvarovani xdeba, maSin
saxezea Tavisufali nebis, da Sesabamisad samyaroSi RmerTis
yofnis Semcirebaze mimarTuli moqmedeba
brigita: egec marTalia, TiTqos: yvelaferi – sportuli
TamaSi, saxelmwifo, ojaxi, dasasvenebeli parki – imas
miuTiTebs, rom Tavisufali neba lamis marto weraSi rCeba,
da Tu sxva Teoriebsac gaviTvaliswinebT, iqac ar rCeba,
imdenad didia gavlenebi da dublikaciebi
tomi: es logikuria, magram xom ar aris am logikaSi rame,
rac aseT sasacilo daskvnas SeuZlebels xdis?
43
brigita: me mgoni piriqiT – logikaSi yvelaferia,
rac aseT sasacilo daskvnas SesaZleblad da
realurad aqcevs. Tuki gvinda logikis komikurobas
Tavi davaRwioT, realobas unda mivmarToT da iq
vnaxoT, ra gamogvrCa realobis aRweraSi..
tomi: jer xom ar aRgviweria?
brigita: rogor ara – yvela Cveni debulebis ukan
aRwera dgas, Tanac sakmaod martivi..
tomi: magaliTad?
brigita: magaliTad, rodesdac vambobT, rom adamini
mimarTulia samyarodan RmerTis gadaSenebaze, maSin
vgulisxmobT, rom es adamini principulad
erTgvarovania, da es mimarTulobac – principulad
erTgarovani..
tomi: es xom marTlac asea..
brigita: jer ar damimTavrebia: es mimarTuloba
principulad erTgvarovanic rom iyos, ar niSnavs,
rom misi yoveli konkretuli gamovlenac
erTgvarovania. es ar niSnavs, rom Tu RmerTis
gadaSeneba mimdinareobs garkveul SemTxvevebSi, rom
es yvela SemTxvevis mimarT marTebulia. SeiZleba iyos erTi-
ori SemTxveva, rac am msjelobas daangrevs
tomi: ra SemTxveva, rodesac yoveli jgufi sakuTari
qcevebis gansazRvrazea mimarTuli, sulerTia iqneba es
platonis akademia, francisk asizelis ordeni Tu qurdebis
samyaro?
brigita: SemTxveva, rodesac konkretuli adamiani ar
miekuTvneba arc erT im jgufs, romlebic RmerTis
gadaSenebiT aris dakavebuli
tomi: im pirobis gaTvaliswinebiT, rom RmerTis gadaSeneba
yoveli arsebuli Tu moazrebuli jgufis xvedria?
brigita: im pirobiT
tomi: magram aseTi adamiani xom Zalian iSviaTi iqneba –
mxolod da mxolod gamonaklisebi, romlebic ar Cajdebian
arc erTi jgufis sazRvrebSi da mudmiv revolucias
mihyofen xels Tu mudmiv mojanyeebad gadaiqcevian
brigita: ara mgonia.. saqme imaSia, rom es albaT yvelaze
didi umsjelobaa, rom adamianebi erT, an ramdenime
gansazRvrul jgufs ekuTvnian. maT goniaT rom isini
mxolod erT jgufs ekuTvnian. sinamdvileSi – sasacilo
44
sityvaa ara am laparakisas – sinamdvileSi isini
Segnebulad mxolod erT, an ramdenime jgufTan
aigiveben sakuTar Tavs, anu, isini Segnebulad rTaven
sakuTar Tavs mxolod gansazRvrul jgufSi..
tomi: anu, maTi damokidebuleba im jgufebTan
mxolod RirebulebiTia, mxolod SefasebiTi?
brigita: aba ra. mxolod Rirebuleba da Sefasebaa
kriteriumi, romlis mixedviTac sakuTar
TviTidentifikacias axden literaturul kafesTan da
literaturul klubTan da ara mawvnis rigSi
mdgomebTan, arada, met dros SeiZleba mawvnis rigSi
atarebde da ara kafeSi. rom gamogikvlion, SeiZleba
mawvnis rigSi ufro meti Cvevebi da
msoflmxedvelobrivi unarebi SegiZenia, vidre kafeSi,
is Cvevebi, Sen rom kafeSi/klubSi SeZenili ggonia
tomi: eg xom snobizmis gamo xdeba?
brigita: ara, es xdeba martivi ramis gamo: Sen sadac
ginda iq unda iyo, magram Seni survili arafer SuaSi
ar aris imasTan rac xar
tomi: aqedan rasizmamze mivalT: Sen ginda germaneli iyo da
ar xar, imitom rom bebiaSeni frangi iyo
brigita: es utrirebaa. Sen mier dasaxelebul SemTxvevaSi
germaneloba realobaa, uaris Tqma ki Sefaseba. Sen
realobisadmi – germanelobisadmi kuTvnilebas acxadeb. mere
viRac ki modis da gafasebs, rom Sen cdebi da sinamdvileSi
_ isev es sityva – sxva, ufro dabali donis xar. im
SemTxvevaSi me rom aRvwere, Sen afaseb – rom germaneli xar
– da sxva modis da geubneba, rom Sen amave dros frangic
xar
tomi: ese igi, rasizmis SemTxvevaSi Sen realobas
upirispireb Sefasebas, xolo Sens moyolil SemTxvevaSi –
Sefasebas realobas
brigita: xo, iq gakleben, aq umateb.. reaqcia ki orive
SemTxvevaSi erTnairi SeiZleba iyos – maSinac roca
germanelad yofnas gikrZalaven, da maSinac rodesac
geubnebian rom Sen ufro meti xar, vidre mxolod
germaneli..
tomi: esec utrirebaa, me xom ar veubnebi rom is metia, me
mas aRvwer, rogorc ufro mets
45
brigita: saqmec magaSia, rom me ki aRvwer mas,
rogorc ufro mets, magram amave dros veubnebi
kidec, mivuTiTeb mis umsjelobaze
tomi: veubnebi, rom sinamdvileSi Sen ufro meti xar,
vidre Sens (an babuaSens) mier mogonili CarCo
brigita: babuaSeni utrirebaa, lamis sagvareulos de-
apologizacias mivadeqiT.. magram sinamdvileSi ufro
meti xar, vidre ggonia an warmogidgenia, anu, isev
warmoudgenlamde mivediT, iqamde, rasac veRar
warmovidgenT da mxolod aRwera SegviZlia
tomi: anu, Cven ki ara, institutebi gadaaSeneben
RmerTs,
brigita: iseve, rogorc Cven ki ara, kaSxlebi Rupaven
ekosistemas, anda, atomuri bombebi afeTqeben da
aavadeben, da ara Cven,
tomi: es bolo Sedareba me mgoni mTlad zusti ar
unda iyos..
brigita: feministuria
tomi: da ara marto.. es aris adaminis tragediis
safuZveli – es aris mudmivi tkivili, romelsac
Cven, adaminebi ganvicdiT, rodesac vqmniT iseT raimes rac
RmerTis gadaSenebas iwvevs da amaSia swored Cveni
dawyevlilobac da madlic..
brigita: nu Radaob
tomi: ratomac ara, me mgoni aqamde mivediT, Tumca ara.. jer
bolo varianti ar mogviZebnia
brigita: ho, ramdenime striqonis win isev warmoudgenel
warmosaxulamde mivediT, roca vcdilobdiT RmerTi
gadaSenebisagan gadagverCina..
tomi: Sen ar Tqvi, movrCeT Radavs
brigita: kargi – bolos gavCerdiT iq, sadac vTqviT, rom
miuxedavad imisa, rom RmerTi struqturebSi da
institutebSi aRar aris, is mainc SeiZleba iyos am
institutebs Soris
tomi: anu, Tu Cven RmerTis mibaZvas movaxdenT da iseve
vimoZravebT institutebs Soris rogorc RmerTi SesaZlebel
samyaroebs Soris
brigita: oRond im gansxvavebiT, rom RmerTi Wverets? …. .. .
. . .
46
tomi: da im daSvebiT rom Cvenc vWvretT, Tu magrebi
varT, magram amave dros vmoZraobT am samyaroebSi
brigita: iseve, rogorc RmerTi moZraobs yvela im
samyaroSi romlebic masSia, maT Soris Cven
samyaroSic
tomi: da es aris swored RmerTis wvdoma –
erTaderTi SesaZlebeli rac SegviZlia
brigita: anu, es aris erTaderTi instituti,
romelic ki ar aqrobs, aramed inarCunebs RmerTs da
sakuTar TavSi Semohyavs. ki ar aqrobs SesaZlebeli
ganviTarebebis Semcirebis gziT, aramed SesaZlebels
xdis usasrulod bevr mikro samyaroSi imogzauro,
rodesac erTaderTi SezRudva Senive sicocxlea.
tomi: ara mgonia, mogzaurebi yvelaze axlos iyvnen
RmerTTan. ara mgonia, yovel SemTxvevaSi, yvela ara:
iseTi mogzauri, romelsac Tan daaqvs Tavisi samyaro,
rogorc lokokinas niJara – albaT ara. sivrceSi
gadaadgileba ver Seqmnis samyaroebSi mogzaurobas.
ufro piriqiT – rac ufro migewebeba niJara, miT
ufro gadaaSeneb RmerTs.
brigita: ho, Tu mogzauroba is wesia, romelSic cxovrob,
marTalia. magram Tu mogzauroba aris saSualeba sxvadasxva
socialur jgufSi icxovro, maSin ki.
tomi: ho, magram yvelaze maRali pilotaJi iqneba adamiani,
romelic adgilidan ar iZvris da ise icvlis samyaroebs
brigita: anu?
tomi: anu, adgilze yofniT – SeiZleba es adgilze yofna
metafora iyos, da ara lotosis pozaSi jdoma – is
axerxebs bevr samyaroSi moxvedras, sakuTar Tavze
sxvadasxva msoflmxedvelobebis da samyaros aRqmebis
mozomebiT
brigita: raRac sasacilo traqtati gamogvdis
tomi: marTali xar, modi sxvebma daweron es traqtatic da
sxvebic, Cvens magivrad, Cven ufro saintereso saqmeebs
mivxedoT
brigita: ho, magram ori sityva mainc unda vTqvaT aqedan
gamomdinare mistikaze
tomi: me mgoni ukve vTqviT
brigita: rodis?
47
tomi: cota xnis – kinaRam striqoni ar vTqvi –
cota xnis win, rodesac adgilze dgomaze vambobdi
raRacas
brigita: da es yvelaferi Cvens yoveldRiurobaSi
rom gadavitanoT?
tomi: anu, Cvens garemoSi da vTqvaT rogor aris
SesaZlebeli mistikuri gamocdileba?
brigita: ki magram, Cveni dialogis mizani sul sxva
iyo, da kidev erTi Tema CavtenoT SigniT?
tomi: iqneb mainc vcadoT
brigita: mkiTxveli aireva
tomi: ara mgonia, iqneb odnav mainc mogvexaza, ra
elodeba adamians Cvens garemoSi mistikur
gamocdilebasTan Sexebisas
brigita: kargi, modi SevexoT
tomi: Sen daiwyeb?
brigita: rogorc ginda
tomi: modi me daviwyeb, mainc rolebi isea
ganawilebuli
brigita: kargi, oRond marto zedapirulad, Rrmad ar unda
Sexvide
tomi: vici, isedac sul zRvarze ar davdivarT
brigita: Tu vwevarT
tomi: rogorc aris. Tumca, axla vifiqre
brigita: ifiqre?
tomi: ho. axla vifiqre – Rirs ki saerTod Tanamedrove
mistikur gamocdilebaze laparaki? mistika, iseve rogorc
sxva raRaceebi, imdenad universitetizirebuli da
institucionalizebulia, rom mistikaze verc vilaparakebT
brigita: xom SevTanxmdiT, rom RmerTi gadaSenebis pirasaa
ukve miyvanili sasrulganzomilebian sivrceebSi, anu, im
sivrceebSi, sadac SesaZlebeli moqmedebebis zRvruli
raodenobaa daSvebuli
tomi: maSin moraluri qmedeba da mistikuri qmedeba erTi da
igive xom ar gamodis – Seni garemos SesaZlebeli
moqmedebebis usasrulo arenad gadaqceva
brigita: waagavs, magram moraluri qmedeba gasvlis da
gadasvlis qmedebaa, rodesac Sen ar Cerdebi erT SesaZlebel
48
samyaroSi/jgufSi da moZraob. rodesac mistikuri
qmedeba sakuTari Tavis gamravleba unda iyos –
gasvlis gareSe
tomi: rogorc moraluri qmedebis yvelaze ufro
radikaluri gamoxatva?
brigita: ho. sakuTari pirovnebis gamravleba
adgilidan daZvris da mogzaurobis gareSe –
mogzauroba ra Tqma unda RmerTis wvdomis gzaa,
magram es mogzauroba socialuri adgilis
gamoucvlelad ganicado - ufro rTulia
tomi: anu, ki ar unda icvalo adgilebi da
socialuri rolebi, aramed iseT mdgomareobas
miaRwio, rom sakuTari Tavis usasulod gamravleba
SegeZlos – rogorc RmerTs. Tumca, RmerTis mimarT
es ar unda iyos mTlad swori gansazRvreba, es ufro
Cveni zRvruli mdgomareobis gansazRvrebaa, zRvari,
romelSic SeiZleba RmerTad yofna SeigrZno,
maqsimalurad daemsgavso RmerTs
brigita: isev warmoudgenlamde mivediT
tomi: ara, jer ar mivsulvarT
brigita: maSin socialuri adgilidan dauZvrelad sakuTari
Tavis gamravlebis SesaZlebloba maCvene
tomi: es is viTarebaa, rodesac erT adgilas yofniT da Seni
rolis SesrulebiT Sen cnobierad asruleb sxva rolebs, da
cdilob rolebis maqsimalurad didi raodenoba moicva
brigita: Tu es formulireba sworia, aucileblad unda
iyos misi sarkiseburi anarekli, romelic sruliad sxvas
sCadis
tomi: da aris kidec: adamini, romelsac instituciur
sxeulSi garkveuli adgili da funqcia gaaCnia da arafers
ar akeTebs
brigita: Tumca, es arafris keTebac SeiZleba garkveuli
mdgomareoba iyos, romelsac mistikis enaze sakuTari Tavis
waSla SeiZleba davarqvaT
tomi: marTali xar, es ar gamodgeba sakuTari Tavis
gamravlebis anareklad
brigita: anareklad gamodgeba adamiani, romelic mimdevrobiT
akeTebs sxvadasxva moqmedebebs, ise, rom Tavisi adgilis
Sesabamis moqmedebas ar axorcielebs
49
tomi: albaT. usaqmurebi arian mistikuri praqtikis
ganmaxorcieleblis anareklebi
brigita: anareklebi, erT-erTi SesaZlebli samyaro,
romelic mistikis praqtikaSi erT-erT samyarod
iqceva. meore mxriv, Tuki Tanamedrove, erTaderT
SesaZlebel mistikur gamocdilebas – sakuTari Tavis
gamravlebas – mivubrundebiT, miviRebT, rom Tuki es
gamocdileba adgilis dakavebasTanaa dakavSirebuli,
erTaderTi mistikuri gamocdileba, romelic
SesaZlebelia, administraciuli yofila, Tuki
gaviTvaliswinebT im srul da zRvramde miyvanil
institucionalizacias, Cveni samyaro rom xasiaTdeba.
tomi: kidev erTi mniSvnelovani daskvna: yvelafers
aqvs misi momijnave SesaZlebeli ganxorcieleba.
mxolod amiT SeiZleba aixsnas gmirebis moRalateebad
da moRalateebis mkvlevarebad interpretacia.
SeiZleba warmoudgeneli azri SevimuSaoT, romlis
mixedviTac interpretatori, romelic istoriuli
kvlevis, an oratori, winadadebebis formebis
saSualebiT, gmirs moRalated, an sulac Cveulebriv
mokvdavad aqcevs, amiT RmerTs baZavs – eZebs im potenciur
samyaros, sadac gmiris SesaZlebeli moqmedeba Ralatad
iqceva da mis ganxorcielebas iwyebs.
brigita: igivea aRmoCenis da plagiatis, siyvarulis da
Ralatis, daxmarebis da gulgrilobis SemTxvevebSi.
tomi: ki magram eseni xom opoziciebi arian?
brigita: albaT mxolod Cvens warmodgenebSi. opozicia aris
warmodgenis is bolo instancia, romelsac Cveni goneba
mimarTavs arsebulis warmosadgenad.
tomi: iseve, rogorc Cveni saubris es bolo, da albaT
mTlinad saubaric, sul advilad daiyvaneba
mravalsazrisianobis da mravalinterpretaciis
SesaZleblobis mouxeSav gamoTqmaze
brigita: anu, rom arc araferi gviTqvams
tomi: arc vapirebdiT raimes Tqmas.
aq da dRes
volandi: rogor unda vimoqmedo, Cemi moqmedeba
universaluri bunebis kanonad rom iqces?
50
berliozi: universaluri bunebis kanonad rom iqces
ki ara, ise unda imoqmedo, rom amave dros gindodes,
rom Seni moqmedeba samyaros mowyobis universaluri
wesi gaxdes
volandi: Sen saidan ici?
berliozi: mec maqvs raRac wignebi wakiTxuli
volandi: mere, cota sasacilo ar aris eg ambavi?
berliozi: romeli?
volandi: ai, morali, wesi, romlis mixedviTac roca
vmoqmedeb, sul unda maxsovdes, rom ra moxdeba, Tu
es moqmedeba samyaros mowyobas daedeba safuZvlad
berliozi: ratomaa sasacilo?
volandi: imitom, rom aqedan gamodis, rom me Tu vici
samyaros mowyobis universaluri wesi, maSin vici
rogor unda vimoqmedo da Sesabamisad, sul aRar
mWirdeba raRaceebze vifiqro da vzomo da vwono
berliozi: ra unda wono?
volandi: ai, moxucs rom aqvs – Tavi ar unda
movikla, imotom, rom Tu warmovidgen, rom yvelam
unda moiklas Tavi, roca gamouval mdgomareobaSi
iqneba, maSin es ar ivargebs samyaros kanonad da amitom uars
vityvi TviTmkvlelobaze
berliozi: hoo, eg moxuci meore moxucs ar icnobda,
asiode wlis Semdeg rom dawera didi traqtati, sadac
ambobs, rom SeiZleba iseTi samyaro arsebobdes, sadac
TviTmkvleloba cxovrebis wesia
volandi: xo, magram yvelanairi TviTmkvleloba ara – marto
altruistuli – Tavis gawirva da rame
berliozi: moica, avtorma xom sul daabnia mkiTxveli –
pirvel moxucSi xom kanti igulisxmeba
volandi: meoreSi ki durkhaimi
berliozi: unda vTqvaT, Torem vin gaagrZelebs kiTxvas
volandi: me mgoni arc amis mere moiklaven Tavs
berliozi: sul nu dakargav imeds, ase TviTmkvlelobamdec
mixval
volandi: aq?
berliozi: ho
volandi: aba rogor
berliozi: ai
volandi: ra?
51
volandi: ra iyo?
volandi: sad gaqri?
volandi: sad xar?
volandi: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..
berliozi: ra iyo, SegeSinda? ai Tu ar aris
SesaZlebeli aq Tavis mokvla
volandi: aranairi efeqti ar mouxdenia, me rom
viyvire, avtorma mayvira, Torem ise ra – Sen
ubralod gaCumdi
berliozi: Sen ambob rom aq gaCumeba Tavis mokvlis
tolfasi ar aris?
volandi: ra Tqma unda ara. Tavi rom moikla, aq
veRar unda dabrunde, an avtori gaxde, an sxva vinme,
tani unda moipovo, rac SeuZlebelia. es ki ra aris
– gaCumdi da mere daiwye laparaki
berliozi: sul unda gavqre?
volandi: ho, rac SenTvis da CemTvis SeuZlebelia –
avtorze varT damokidebulebi, da Tu unda gagvaCumebs, Tu
unda agvalaparakebs
berliozi: Tavis mokvla mogindeba kacs.. kargi, davbrundeT
moxucebTan – sasaciloao ambobdi
volandi: xo, imas vambobdi, rom me Tu darwmunebuli var
rom vici, rogor da ra principebze agebulia samyaro?
magaliTad arsebobisaTviso brZolaze, maSin?
berliozi: maSin ra?
volandi: maSin yvela Cemi moqmedeba arsebobisaTvis brZoliT
iqneba gansazRvruli da albaT, sul ar iqneba iseTi
moraluri, kants rom warmoaedgina
berliozi: iqneb sxva rames gulisxmobda?
volandi: Tu gulisxmobda, daewera
berliozi: egre advili ki ar iyo im dros – dawero rasac
gulisxmob – mTli tomi unda dagewera imisaTvis, rasac
fiqrobdi rom dagesabuTebina
volandi: me mgoni mainc sxva rames gulisxmobda – me romc
vicode, rom samyaros kanoni arsebobisaTvis brZolaa, iqneb
ar mindodes, rom arsebobisaTvis brZolaSi momklan?
52
berliozi: SeiZleba Zalian Zlieri xar da arc
fiqrob, rom mogklaven. piriqiT, darwmunebuli xar,
rom yvelas moerevi. Tanac, iseTi ganaTleba gaqvs
miRebuli, romlis mixedviTac utyuarad ici, rom
samyaros kanoni arsebobisaTvis brZolaa
volandi: maSin Segisrulebia moxucis moraluri
moTxovna. kantis dros skolebSi samyaros mowyobis
principebs ar aswavlidnen
berliozi: aswavlidnen, magram maSin samyaros
mowyobis ZiriTadi principi moraluri iyo
volandi: amitom, sruliad mosalodneli iyo, rom
kantis droindeli adamiani samyaros mowyobis
ZiriTad principze Tu ifiqrebda, arsebuli da
naswavli warmoudgeboda cxvirwin
berliozi: kargi, imaze raRas ityvi – adamianoba
mizani rom unda iyos?
volandi: me Tu kanibali var? Tu Cemi miTologia
meubneba, rom saukeTeso rac SemiZlia gavukeTo
mters – misi guli SevWamo, rom misma arsebam CemSi
gaagrZelos cxovreba?
berliozi: ise, rom icode, kantis wesebi mainc dasavluri
civilizaciisaTvisaa, rogorSic cxovrobda da rogorSic
warmoedgina
volandi: ara mgonia – is iseT wesebs eZebda, yvela
SemTxvevisaTvis rom iqnebodnen gamosadegni
berliozi: mere ar gamouvida
volandi: arc egre ar unda iyos saqme – Tu ase SevxedavT -
gulisxmobda kanti im Tavis universalur wesSi, rom yvela
unda asrulebdes am wess?
berliozi: maSin, im Cveni magaliTis Sinaarsi ra unda iyos?
minda Tu ara, rom yvela iyos mzad Tavis gawirvisaTvis ama
da am SemTxvevaSi?
volandi: ho..
berliozi: maSin gamova rom minda – rom yvela mzad iyos
Tavis gawirvisaTvis garkveul SemTxvevebSi, Tan kenisbergel
moxucs sityvaze nu daviWerT. ra icoda, rom parizeli
moxuci Tavganwirvas TviTmkvlelobaSi gaiyvanda
volandi: marTalia, magram aq meore ambavia
berliozi: ra ambavi?
53
volandi: me mTeli rigi codnebi unda mqondes
imisaTvis, rom moralurad moviqce
berliozi: ratom?
volandi: imitom, rom unda vicode ra aris samyaro,
misi mowyoba, universaluri wesi da bolos da
bolos – elementaruli warmosaxva unda mqondes
berliozi: imisaTvis, rom Seni moqmedeba
warmosaxviTi samyaros arsebobis universalur wesad
warmoidgino?
volandi: ho
berliozi: maSin ra gamodis – mxolod garkveuli
ganaTlebis mqone adamianebs SeuZliaT iyvnen
moralurebi da amoralurebi?
volandi: ase gamodis – principSi – asecaa, Seni
saqcielis moraluroba/amoralurobis Sesaxeb kiTxva
xom maSin giCndeba, raRac ganaTleba rom gaqvs da
amave dros - warmoadgena moralurze da amoralurze
berliozi: an, igive kiTxva giCndeba Tu raimes
miRweva ginda – raimes gamorCenis mizniT
volandi: eg xom erTi da igivea
berliozi: kargi, egre iyos, magram eg xom ar cvlis
ZiriTad problemas – mxolod Zalian cota adamians – maT
saerTo raodenobasTan SedarebiT – uCndeba kiTxvebi
moralurobis Sesaxeb
volandi: kiTxvebic da pasuxebic
berliozi: ho, xoda Tu cota adamins uCndeba – xom ar
aris es samyaro ZirSive da potenciurad amoraluri?
volandi: albaT ara, imitom, rom am samyaros mowyobis wesi
swored im adamianebis xelSia, visac SeiZleba gauCndes
kiTxva moraluroba-amoralurobis Sesaxeb
berliozi: anu – marto mmarTvelebi da politikosebi?
volandi: ara – maTi ricxvi ufro metia – faqtiurad yvela
ganaTlebuli adamiani – romlebic swavloben, aswavlian,
marTaven da ase Semdeg
berliozi: magram me ra garantia maqvs, rom es adamianebi
sworad aswavlian, an moralurobis swored aseT, an msgavs
formulebs atareben?
volandi: ra Tqma unda ara gvaqvs garantia, magram meore
mxriv, aq TviTgadarCenis da TviTSenarCunebis faqtorebi
erTvebian
54
berliozi: rogor?
volandi: ai rogor – Tuki Sen raRac mcire gagaCnia
– sul erTia es Seni qoneba materialuria Tu
simboluri, Sen yovelTvis Seecdebi iseTi wesebi
SemoiRo, rom SenTvis am sakuTrebis warTmeva rTuli
aRmoCndes. Sesabamisad, sabolood mixval iqamde, rom
SenTvisac rTuli aRmoCndeba sxvisTvis raime
sakuTrebis warTmeva
berliozi: Zalian utilitaruli da merkantiluri
axsnaa
volandi: aranairad – sinamdvileSi
berliozi: ras CaveWideT am sityvas
volandi: sinamdviles?
berliozi: ho
volandi: ra Cveni bralia
berliozi: ra vici, ra vici
volandi: hoda imas geubnebodi, sinamdvileSi, ase rom
vxsniT maSin gamoiyureba cota zedmetad
merkantilurad, Tore ise – es iseTive kacobriobaze
zrunvaa, moxuci rom ambobda
berliozi: anu, aseTi moqmedebebis, im SemTxvevaSic ki, Tu
Sen mxolod sakuTari qonebis dacvaze xar orientirebuli,
saboloo mizani kacobriobaa?
volandi: ra Tqma unda, Tuki Sen moindomeb rom marto Sen
ki ar icavde Sens sakuTrebas, aramed, sxvac icavdes, maSinac,
rodesac Sen amis Tavi an dro ar geqneba
berliozi: maSin, gamodis rom rac ar unda ifiqros vinmem
da sakuTari kapitalis SenarCunebaze izrunos, sabolood
mainc mivalT iseT wesebamde, romelic samyaros mowyobis
universalur wesad gamodgeba?
volandi: ho, magram es droSi Zalian gawelili procesia
berliozi: da realurad SeiZleba ar moxdes an Zalian
cota SemTxvevaSi moxdes?
volandi: ho. magram meore mxriv – ganaTleba iseTi
bunebisaa, rom misma mimRebma ukve icis meore mxare – anu,
misTvis ukve cnobilia samyaros mowyoba – ra xifaTebi da
sargeblebi elodeba da vin arian im samyaroSi, romlSic is
cxovrebas apirebs
berliozi: albaT, ganaTlebis yvelaze ufro mniSvnelovani
Sedegi aris is, rom misma mimRebma icis, rom samyaros
55
mowyobas safuZvled Tanasworoba udevs. ase aris
yvela saganmanaTleblo sistemaSi da nebismieri
ganaTleba – iqneba es sabrZolo xelovnebebis
swavleba Tu literaturis, am ideas efuZneba
volandi: raRac Zalian gawele
berliozi: me ufro mokled mindoda, magram am dros
avtori CaerTo da raRaceebi daamata
volandi: hoda ra gindoda mokled geTqva?
berliozi: is, rom ganaTlebis universaluri Sedegi
aris imis Canergva rom Sens garda sxva Sennairebic
arseboben da principulad Sens da maT Soris
gansxvaveba ar aris
volandi: eg raRac ucnauri Tqvi – libertaniul
ferebSi..
berliozi: sulac ara – da swored es aris Cvens
samyaroSi moralis safuZveli – nebismieri adamiani
nebismier socialur garemoSi raRacnair ganaTlebas
yovelTvis iRebs, Sesabamisad, is yovelTvis iRebs
imis sarwmuno mtkicebas, rom mis garda misnairebi
kidev arseboben da is ar unda elodos, rom es misnairebi
erT mSvenier dRes gaqrebian
volandi: anu, is iRebs codnas im realobis Sesaxeb
romelSic is cxovrobs da romelic principulad misnairi
arsebebiT arian dasaxlebulebi
berliozi: da Sesabamisad, rac ar unda diskriminaciuli
ganaTleba miiRo, am ganaTlebiT iReb utyuar codnas sxva
Sennairebis arsebobis Sesaxeb
volandi: Tu ganaTleba kasturia?
berliozi: kasturi ganaTleba gimtkicebs da gaswavlis
Sens gansxvavebulobas da aRmatebuloba/damcirebulobas
volandi: ki magram, isec xom SeiZleba SevxedoT, rom me
Cemniarebis arsebobis Sesaxeb codna ganaTlebis gareSec
maqvs
berliozi: Cemnairebis arsebobis Sesaxeb codna ki maqvs
ganaTlebis gareSe, magram Cveni erTnairobis Sesaxeb codna –
mxolod ganaTlebiT Semodis CemSi – imdenad, ramdenadac
ganaTleba me maswavlis gansxvavebas da sxvebze warmatebis
mopovebas, is amiT me maswavlis, rom sxvebi principiulad
Cemnairebi arian. da Tu es ar viswavle rasac maswavlian –
56
magaliTad, brZola - ver movipoveb im
gansxvavebulobas, rac mekuTvnis - dabadebiT an
jadosnurad
volandi: anu, yvelanairi ganaTlebis safuZveli aris
is, rom adamianebi erTnairebi arian da amitom
yvelanairi ganaTlebis Sedegi sabolood erTi da
igivea – samyaros iseTi mowyobis SemuSaveba,
romelic am adamianebis erTnairobas iTvaliswinebs
berliozi: ho, gamodis, rom adamianis arseboba
Tavisi arsiT moraluri kiTxvebis dasmiskenaa
mimarTuli – mTavaria vin da rogor scems am
kiTxvaze pasuxs
volandi: anu, yvela adamiani, Tundac yvelaze
primitiuli tomis wevri iyos, Tavisi moqmedebiT
scems pasuxs kiTxvas, Tu rogor unda iyos samyaro
mowyobili
berliozi: rac exla Tqvi, erTis mxriv yvelas
moraluri pasuxismgeblobis aRiarebaa, magram meore
mxriv – yvelas da yovelis pasuxismgeblobis
gaTanabreba
volandi: an gaTanabreba, an raRac jgufis gamoyofa da masze
dawola – es aseTi azrovnebis aucilebeli Sedegia –
Tavidan gvegona rom kenisbergeli moxucis naTqvami marto
evropel adamians exeboda da albaT, qedmarluriao,
vfiqrobdiT, exla mivediT daskvnamde, rom yvelas exeba da
amitom – principSi susti moTxovnaa, bevrs arafers
gavaldebulebs
berliozi: marTalia – me yoveldRiurobaSi is ki ar
mainteresebs, Teoriulad var Tu ara pasuxismgebli Cems
moqmedebebze aramed is, Tu rogor unda moviqce
volandi: hoo, mag kiTxvaze pasuxs raRac davSordiT
berliozi: ho, davSordiT da exla isev unda davubrundeT
– albaT – im ori ZiriTadi ganwyobidan unda amovideT,
moralur qmedebas rom udevs safuZvlad
volandi: romeli im oridan?
berliozi: es sakmaod martivi oria – pirveli – ar unda
elodo jildos moralurad qcevisaTvis da meore – ar unda
moaxdino Seni saqcielis afiSireba-
reklamireba'gamoaSkaraveba
57
volandi: eg xom ar niSnavs, rom saerTod ar unda
elodo jildos – magaliTad simdidres?
berliozi: ara, Tumca xSirad ase esmodaT – me ki
mgonia, rom Seni saqcielis moralurobis gamo ar
unda elodo jildos, Torem saqcielis yvela sxva
mxare jildovdeba, ganisjeba da ganikiTxeba
volandi: da meore pirvelidan xom ar gamomdinareobs
– rom Seni moraluri saqcielis Sesaxeb aravin ar
unda icodes, an aravis ar unda Seatyobino, an ise
unda moiqce, rom principulad veravin gaigos –
moraluri saqcieli maSinaa moraluri, rodesac is
ar xdeba gansjis sagani da amitom, principulad
SeuZlebelia rom dajildovdes
berliozi: idealuri danaSaulis aRweramde xom ar
mivediT?
volandi: albaT ara – jildos principuli
SeuZlebloba idealur danaSaulTan kavSirs
gamoricxavs – sxva mxriv ki marTali xar – emTxveva
berliozi: struqturalistebs gauxardebaT – yvelaze
amoralur da moralur saqciels struqturulad rom
erTniarad rom vaxasiaTebT
volandi: ho da albaT amitom gvgonia me da Sen rom es
gansazRvra sworia – iseve rogorc didi siyvarulis da
didi siZulvilis, nebismieri mZafri da Zlieri
dapirispirebulebis gansazRvrebisas
berliozi: eg yvelaferi kargi, magram es mainc ar maZlevs
imis codnas, Tu rogor unda moviqce me, konkretuli
adamiani
volandi: Zalianac nu daiCemeb konkretulobas
berliozi: kargi, saxeli xom maqvs da konkretul adaminze
xom mivuTiTeb mainc
volandi: kargi, nu gabrazdi, vixumre
berliozi: ar gavbrazebulvar, gaaWira am avtorma saqme
volandi: kargi, davubrundeT Cveni qcevis sakiTxs
berliozi: kargi. hoda, Tu qcevis sakiTxs vubrundebiT,
jer unda gavigoT, an odnav mainc unda SevexoT Tu rogor
aris mowyobili Cveni samyaro
volandi: ratom?
58
berliozi: aba rogor unda davadginoT jildoebis
da saidumlod Senaxvis ambavi?
volandi: marTali xar. uamisod davrCebiT zogadi
frazebis amara da veravisac ver vetyviT,
konkretulad rogori unda iyos qceva am samyaroSi
berliozi: arada, yvela am didi da zogjer
bundovani azrebis ukan dgas survili icode Tu
rogor unda moiqce am samyaroSi
volandi: marTali xar – ai Tundac – erTi
ingliseli rom Seecada Cveni Tavisufleba sityvebis
da gamoTqmebis analizidan gamoeyvana
berliozi: mere gamouvida?
volandi: TiTqos gamouvida, magram ara mgonia amis
Semdeg mas Tavi ufro Tavisuflad egrZno
berliozi: modi isev Tavidan daviwyoT
volandi: ara
berliozi: ratom ara?
volandi: kiTxvas Tavs daanebeben
berliozi: Tu ucbad vizamT, ara mgonia
volandi: kargi, vcadoT
berliozi: kargi. isev unda dagisva kiTxva – zemoT ar
davamTavreT amaze pasuxis gacema – Cveni saqcielis dayofa
SesaZlebelia moralurad da aramoralurad, Tu Cvens yovel
saqciels aqvs moraluri mxare, nawili?
volandi: albaT ufro meore – Cvens yovel saqcielSi aris
mxare, romelic moraluroba-amoralurobas gansazRvravs,
amitom yvela saqcieli aris moraluri an amoraluri
berliozi: yvela?
volandi: Cais daleva albaT ara
berliozi: albaT arc quCaSi siaruli
volandi: gadawyvetilebis miRebasTan xom ar aris
dakavSirebuli?
berliozi: principSi, gadawyvetilebas Cais dalevis drosac
xom iReb
volandi: hoo
berliozi: maSin rogor unda vTqvaT? jildos miReba-
armiRebis survilze rom davideT, maSin xom SeiZleba,
viRaca borotebas imitom sCadis, rom ase unda da sul ar
elodeba jildos miRebas?
59
volandi: egec SesaZlebelia, marTalia, ZiriTadaT
literaturaSi
berliozi: magram Cvenc xom aqa varT
volandi: egecaa
berliozi: maSin ra gamodis – moralur saqciels
srulad ver ganvsazRvravT verc jildos miReba-
armiRebis surviliT, verc gadawyvetilebis miRebis
saerTo foniT, verc samyaros mowyobis wesebis
codniT, verc surviliT, rom Sens saqcielSi
Cadebuli wesebis mixedviT moewyos samyaro..
volandi: ase rom vcadoT – yvelaferi erTad rom
iyos ganmsazRvreli, maSin ra gamova?
berliozi: yelaferi erTad? aba vnaxoT: unda moiqce
ise, rom ar unda gindodes Seni saqcielis Sedegad
jildo miiRo
volandi: Tumca ase SeiZleba moxdes da es ar niSnavs
rom Seni saqcieli post-faqtum xdeba amoraluri
berliozi: nu mawyvetineb – amave dros unda moiqce
ise, rom Seni qceva SenTvis cnobil samyaros
mowyobis wess emTxveodes
volandi: im SemTxvevaSic, Tu SenTvis cnobili wesi Sorsaa
Seni yofiTi warmodgenebidan: magaliTad, ici, rom im
samyaroSi, romelSic cxovrob, yovelTvis boroteba
imarjvebs. am SemTxvevaSi, Tu Sen borotebas exmarebi, maSin,
gamodis rom jildosaTvis moqmedeb, rac wina debulebas
ewinaamRdegeba
berliozi: nu mawyvetineb meTqi
volandi: kargi, gaagrZele
berliozi: da mesame – ar unda moaxdino Seni saqcielis
manifestacia
volandi: Tu es moxda – rac xdeba xolme, ar niSnavs, rom
am SemTxvevaSic Seni saqcieli post faqtum xdeba
amoraluri
berliozi: maSasadame, ra miviReT – moraluri moqmedebaa
rodesac iqcevi erTsa da imave dros - samyaros mowyobis
wesis mixedviT, ar elodebi jildos Seni saqcielisaTvis da
ar axdeb Seni saqcielis manifestacias.
volandi: Tumca, am Seni saqcielisaTvis SeiZleba jildoc
miiRo da manifestaciac moxdes, gaSuqdes televiziebSi da
gazeTebSi da ase Semdeg
60
berliozi: miiRo premiebi da mogebebi aqciebidan..
volandi: Tundac
berliozi: erTi daskvnac – am SemTxvevaSi yoveli
kokretuli saqcielis gazomva SeuZlebeli xdeba –
mxolod Senzea damokidebuli ramdenad CaTvli
sakuTar saqciels moralurobis sferoSi Sesulad da
sabolood, ramdenad moralurad an amoralurad
moiqcevi
volandi: mokled, am sami principis erTianoba
geubneba, rom Seni codna samyaros Sesaxeb ar unda
gamoiyeno Seni piradi sargeblis mosapoveblad,
Tumca, ar gamoricxavs imas, rom Seni codna Sen
sargebels mogapovebinebs da sabolood gagamdidrebs
berliozi: es daskvna ki miviReT bevri gverdi
msjelobis Sedegad, amgram iseTi gansakuTrebuli ra
aris amaSi? ase Tu ise yvela, vinc eTikurobaze da
moralurobaze fiqrobs, ase iqceva
volandi: egec marTalia, magram Cven es yvelaferi
gvinda imisaTvis, rom Cvens samyaroSi qcevis
moraluri gza davadginoT, da ara imitom, rom yvela drois
da sivrcis universaluri wesi movigonoT
berliozi: arc sxvebi igonebdnen, magram.. kargi, gaagrZele
volandi: ise, meoTxe dagvaviwyda – principuli
gauzomveloba – anu, Tuki Sen gaqvs sarwmuno saSualebebi
imisaTvis, rom gazomo sxvisi moraluri an amoraluri qceva,
maSin is ar aris swori
berliozi: ki magram Cven rom vswavlobT xolme, aTi mcneba
da rame?
volandi: eg xom swori da araswori qcevebis CamonaTvalia –
moiqcevi ase da RmerTi dagajildoebs, ara da ara..
berliozi: kargi, mere?
volandi: mere is, rom droa es oTxive niSani Cveni garemos
enaze vTargmnoT da vnaxoT ra gamova
berliozi: me megona aqamde vxumrobdiT – ra samyaros
mowyobis wesis mixedviT unda moviqceT – simebi da didi
afeTqeba rogor unda gamoviyenoT?
volandi: mag wesze ar unda vifiqroT – eg drozea
damokidebuli Tan imdenad, rom me mgoni ukve Seicvala, an
male Seicvleba
61
berliozi: aba raze unda vifiqroT?
volandi: raze da imaze, rac Cven dRevandel yofas
udevs safuZlvad, rogoraa Cveni samyaro mowyobili,
ufro sworad - rogor vigebT, rogoraa samyaro
mowyobili
berliozi: anu, Sen ambob, rom samyaro isea
mowyobili, rogorc vigebT misi mowyobis Sesaxeb?
volandi: ho
berliozi: anu, me Tu orasi wlis win saeklesio
skolaSi vigebdi samyaros mowyobis Sesaxeb..
volandi: da mere iwyebdi cxovreba im samyaroSi,
sadac codnis gavrceleba ganmtkicebaSi eklesias
didi roli hqonda, Sesabamisad, samyaroc CemTvis ase
iyo mowyobili
berliozi: maSasadame..
volandi: ra romantikuli sityvaa
berliozi: nu mawyvetineb, ra.. maSasadame, me Cemi
qceva samyaros mowyobas ki ar unda Sevusabamo,
aramed, imas, Tu rogor Semodis codna samyaros
Sesaxeb CemSi?
volandi: ase gamodis, ra gasakviric ar unda iyos..
berliozi: kargi, Tu egrea, maSin CemSi samyaro, anu, codna
samyaros Sesaxeb qselebiT Semodis
volandi: ho, Tanac, Tuki asi, orasi wlis winaT es
Semosvla mxolod patara da naglej-naglej arsebuli
qselebiT Semoifargleboda, dRes Cveni samyaros Sesaxeb
codnis qseluri gadacemis wesi aSkaraa
berliozi: anu, Cven ara marto aRviqvamT Tavs sxvdasxva
qselebis da qseli wevrebad, aramed qseluroba da qseli
Cveni samyaros TavisTavadnagulisxmevi safuZveli sxdeba
volandi: eg marTlac asea – yvelaferSi qsels – kavSirebs
da urTierTmoqmedebebs esmeva xazi – Tanac ise, rom
qselebze laparaki lamis cud tonad iTvleba
inteleqtualTa wreebSi
berliozi: eg magaria – ese igi swor gzaze vdgevarT
volandi: yovelTvis ara, exla vnaxoT
berliozi: hoda, imas ambobdi, qselebi rogorc gvqselaven
volandi: xoda imas vambobdi – Tuki Cveni samyaros
TavisTavadnagulisxmevi mowyoba qseluria, es niSnavs, rom
62
Cveni samyaro, maT Soris adamianTa samyaroc Sedgeba
qselebis qselisagan
berliozi: ra magaria, TiTqmis Sua saukuneebi
volandi: nu cinikosob, amazec bevri uTqvamT wina
saukunis moxuc semiotikosebs
berliozi: semio.. vis?
volandi: bodiSi, gamaxsebda rom Sen rom Segqmnes, eg
mecniereba ar iyo.. ara aqvs mniSvneloba, mTavaria
Cveni Temis boloSi gavideT, Torem dagveRala
mkiTxveli, da ha da ha da migvatovebs
berliozi: kargi, kargi
berliozi: hoda imas vambobdi, rom Cveni, adamianTa
samyaro Sedgeba patar-patara samyaroebisagan,
romlebic Tavad qselurebi arian
berliozi: ra Tqma unda – mini-samyaros simtkice
xom masSi nawilebis, da Cvens SemTxvevaSi, adamianebis
kavSirebis simtkicezea damyarebuli
volandi: nu ambob imas, rac TavisTavad cxadia
berliozi: visTvis?
volandi: mkiTxvelisTvis
berliozi: kargi, kargi
volandi: da mere es patara qselebi erTmaneTTan qselis
principebiT arian dakavSirebulni
berliozi: es rogor?
volandi: rogor da – yoveli patara qselis wevrebi
izolirebulni ar arian da sxva qselebis wevrebTan aseve
qselur kavSirebSi arian
berliozi: zogi am kavSirTagan sustia, zogi Zlieri, zogi
korporaciuli, zogi piradi, zogi wuTieri, zogi
memkvidreobiTi
volandi: morCi mantras
berliozi: kargi, me ubralod mkiTxvels varTob
volandi: mkiTxvels erTi ram unda – droze gavideT
boloSi
berliozi: kargi, gavagrZeloT
volandi: hoda, es kavSirebi qmnian Cvens qselur cxovrebas
berliozi: sainteresoa, Tanac ise qmnian, rom samyaros am
aRweras Cveni civilizaciidan ycelaze ufro Sors mdgari
jgufebic ki ver daaRweven Tavs – raki viciT maTi arseboba,
isini ukve qselSi arian gaxveulebi
63
volandi: kargi, da maSin rogori iqneba is moraluri
qcevis sami aRwera aseTi samyaros SemTxvevaSi?
berliozi: Tu oTxi? principuli gauzomvadoba
dagaviwyda. romeli sami – ar unda elodo jildos,
ar unda moaxdino saqcielis manifestireba, da unda
moiqce samyaros mowyobis wesis mixedviT?
volandi: ho
berliozi: samyaros mowyobis wesis mixedviT qceva
niSnavs, rom xeli unda Sevuwyo qselurobas – anu,
vamyaro da vamyaro qselebi da gavaba da gavaba
kavSirebi
volandi: ki batono
berliozi: manifestacia ar vakeTo – niSnavs imas,
rom ar unda viyviro amis Sesaxeb, rom me magari var
qselebis da kavSirebis gabmaSi da rom es super-
moraluri saqcielia
volandi: da jildos ar elodo?
berliozi: aq cota rTuladaa saqme – jildos ar
elodo unda niSnavdes, rom..
volandi: ras?
berliozi: imas, rom.. albaT imas, rom Zalian ar unda
Caiketo erT qselSi, radgan adre Tu gvian, qselebis da
kavSirebis erT mini-samyaroSi gabmis gamo, jildoebis wyeba
ar agcdeba
volandi: anu, gamova, Tu didxans SevrCi erT qselSi, erT
mini-samyaroSi, rac ar unda gavakeTo, jildosTvis
gavakeTeb?
berliozi: ase gamodis
volandi: modi kidev erTxel davfiqrdeT amaze – Tu me erT
mini-samyaroSi SevrCi – da gavagrZele socialuri kapitalis
dagroveba
berliozi: risi?
volandi: socialuri kapitalis – socialuri kapitali
niSnavs im kavSirebs da qselebs romelsac adamiani agrovebs
da agebs Tanamedrove samyaroSi da romelsac dRes ufro
meti mogebis da fulis motana SeuZlia vidre fizikur
kapitals
berliozi: egre viTom?
64
volandi: befvri fiqrobs rom asea, imitom, rom
yvela kapitalis dagrovebas win aseTi – socialuri
kapitalis dagroveba uswrebs..
berliozi: eseigi, me rom materialuri kapitali
davagrovo, amisaTvis jer socialuri kapitali unda
Sevqmna?
volandi: ho, an erTdroulad.. mokled, me Tu
gavagrZele erT mini-samyaroSi socialuri kapitalis
dagroveba, raRaca dones rom mivaRwev, me
aucileblad miviReb amisagan sargebels, amitom amas
unda averido, Tu moralurad minda rom moviqce
berliozi: ratom? imitom rom raRac momentSi Sens
mier socialuri kapitalis dagroveba gadaiqceva
mxolod mogebis mizniT moqmedebad, da qselurobis
xelis Seqyoba mxolod foni gaxdeba
volandi: es yvelaferi kargi, magram xom ar mivediT
gazomvadobamde? wina gverdebze xom vTqviT, rom Tu
moraluri qcevis prinvipi sworia, gareSes, sxvis
mier is ar unda izomebodes
berliozi: sityva kapitali nu dagabnevs, arc izomeba, es
mxolod Sens gadawyvetilebazea damokidebuli: rodis
gadawyvet, rom Sens mier kapitalis dagroveba cdeba
moraluri saqcielis farglebs da ZiriTadaT mogebaze
orientirebuli xdeba
volandi: marTali xar, mxolod wignis furclebze xdeba
axali cnebebis aseTi swrafi aTviseba da mere gamoyeneba
berliozi: kargi, kargi, nu daiboRme.. magram gamosavali ar
gviTqvams - ki batono, qselebis Seqmna-ganmtkicebaze unda
vizruno, unda Sevwyvito es saqme, roca Sevatyob, rom
mxolod mogebis motanis saxe miiRo, magram ra unda vakeTo
– Tavi movikla?
volandi: ai aq mivediT yvelaze saintereso adgilamde –
Tavi ki ar unda moikla, sxva mini-samyaroSi unda gadaxvide,
sadac ar gaqvs iseTi socialuri kapitali, rac Sens
sakuTar mini-samyaroebis erTobliobaSi gqonda da Tavidan
daiwyo qselebis da kavSirebis gamravleba
berliozi: da ase mTeli cxovreba?
volandi: ra Tqma unda, Tuki ginda, rom moralurad moiqce,
Tumca, raki Sen aravin ar gyavs ganmsjeli da mosamarTle,
65
SegiZlia raRac dros Sewyvito es samyaroebSi
mogzauroba da darCe erT-erTSi – arc aravin
getyvis arafers – iqnebi SenTvis Tbilad da mSvidad,
dagrovebuli kapitalebis garemocvaSi
berliozi: anu, Cveni moralurobis wesi ar gacda
mxolod-sakuTari-Tavis-mier-Semowmebis-
SesaZleblobas?
volandi: ara
berliozi: magram, Cven mainc ver mivediT konkretul
saqcielamde – mainc zogadi wesebis warmoebaSi
amovyaviT Tavi. konkretuli qceva rogori unda iyos?
volandi: konkretul qcevad rom vTargmnoT Cveni
wesebi, Semdeg suraTs miviRebT: Tuki samyaros
mowyobis wesis Sesabamisad viqcevi, me var mimarTuli
qselebis da kavSirebis gamtkicebaze da axali
kavSirebis gaCenaze. ara mgonia romelime gawvrTnilma
gonebam tyuili da mkvleloba, romelTaganac pirveli
qselis daSlas emuqreba, meore ki qselis moWidebis
adgilis - adamianis gaqrobas – qselis ganmtkiceba-
gafarToebad CaTvalos
berliozi: Tanac, am SemTxvevaSi jildos ar-lodini da
manifestaciaze uaris Tqma – damatebiTi uzrunvelyofis
funqcias asruleben..
volandi: marTalia, Tanac aq datovebulia TviTgamarTlebis
wyaro – adamins SeuZlia Tavisi Tavi daarwmunos – Tanac
yovelTvis, rom is jildosTvis ki ar muSaobs, mas ubralod
mouwia jildos miReba, TviTon ki ar akeTebs sakuTari
saqcielis manifestacias, sxvebi uwyoben da ase Semdeg
berliozi: es yvelaferi mxolod moralurobis
gavrcelebas uwyobs xels da ara piriqiT
volandi: albaT – sxva SemTxvevaSi, Zalian mkacri rom iyos
– Zalian cota adamini Tu gaiziarebda
berliozi: arc am principebis gaziarebaze moiklavs Tavs
vinme
volandi: arc unda moiklas – moralurobaze miTiTeba da
masze msjeloba imitom arsebobs, rom maZiebels gauadvilos
gza, da ara imitom, rom yvelam gaiziaros
berliozi: magram, konkretuli admianis saqcieli rogori
unda iyos, mainc ar vTqviT
66
volandi: rogori da – Seecados ar daebas romelime
konkretul qselSi, mudmivad imogzauros samyarodan
samyaroSi, Seqmnas axali kavSirebi da mini-samyaroebi
berliozi: eseigi, Tuki aqamde moralurobis da
moraluri qcevis xats brZola warmoadgebda, exla
mogzauroba unda iyos misi simboluri gamomxatveli?
volandi: ho, anu, amiT Cven mogzaurobas vabrunebT
inteleqtualur samyaroSi, gamarTlebas vuZebniT,
vacilebT cnobierebis ubedurebaSi dadanaSaulebas da
kidev bevr da bevr rames vakeTebT
berliozi: brZola xom rCeba mainc?
volandi: ki, magram brZola am SemTxvevaSi ar aris
moralurobis aucilebeli nawili – mxolod rogorc
iaraRi da saSualeba, isic garkveul SemTxvevebSi
berliozi: Cveni dialogi ki rogor gaxdeba
moraluri?
volandi: sxva dialogis dawyebiT
67
dialogi
tomi: isev aqa varT
brigita: ho
heklberi: mere ra?
beki: arc araferi, garkveuli azriT sasixaruloc kia
di: ratom?
TeTri orqidea: eg xom isedac gasagebia – es aris
Cveni yofnis erTaderTi forma
volandi: amitom ra – muxlebze daveceT da avtorze
vilocoT, kidev erTxel rom Segvkriba da dagvwera?
berliozi: ara mgonia es undodes – Tanac Tu
gaviTavaliswinebT, rom amas gvalaparakebs, es
namdvilad ar unda
tomi: sakmaod primitiuli xerxia
brigita: meore mxriv – rameTi xom unda daewyo
heklberi: exla Sen xar amas rom ambob, Tu avtori?
beki: ra gansxvavebaa?
di: mainc maqvs imedi, rom mcire damoukidebloba
mainc gvaqvs
TeTri orqidea: es damoukidebloba, romc gvqondes, ar unda
gavigoT ise, rom avtonomiurebi varT
volandi: avtonomiuroba ra aris?
berliozi: ai, Tundac, damoukidebeli kvebis wyaro rom
gaqvs
tomi: am azriT ar varT damoukideblebi – avtoris
kompiuteris klaviaturaze varT mibmulebi
brigita: da misi TiTebis moZraobaze
heklberi: da mis survilze
beki: da imaze, rac icis
di: ai, swored mand ar aris TviTon Tavisufali da mand
SeiZleba vipovoT Cven Cveni Tavisuflebis wyaro
TeTri orqidea: raSi – raRac tradiciebiT da codnebiT
rom aris gansazRvruli misi muSaoba?
volandi: ho, is xom erTis mxriv Tavisufalia Cvns mimarT,
magram, meore mxriv iZulebulia sakuTari ganaTlebis,
tradiciis da umsjelobebis gadakveTaSi weros
berliozi: anu, Tqven ambobT, rom is rom axla amas wers, es
mTlianad mis nebaze ar aris damokidebuli?
tomi: ho
68
brigita: hoda, Tu is wers ise, rom ar aris
mTlianad masze damokidebuli ras wers, swored es
aris Cveni Tavisuflebis safuZveli
heklberi: ki magram, es ormagi damokidebuleba xom
ar aris?
beki: ara – am samyaroSi Cven da avtori varT, es
samyaro marto Cveni da avtorisaa. Tu is iseT rames
akeTebs, rac ar unda, Tu Cveni laparaki da saubari
yovelTvis is ar aris, rac mas winaswar
warmoaudgenia.. .. ..
di: da Tu xandaxan.. .. xandaxan ki ara, TiTqmis
yovelTvis, man ar icis ras dawers meore momentSi,
Cven Tavisuflebi vyofilvarT, imitom, rom Tuki
SegviZlia vivaraudoT, rom avtoris Semdgom nabijs
gansazRvravs tradicia da misi garemo, aseTive
warmatebiT SegviZlia vivaraudoT, rom Cven, Cveni
garemo, Tundac Cveni wina cxovrebebi, gansazRvraven
mis, da maSasadame, Cvens moqmedebebs
TeTri orqidea: Sen ginda Tqva, rom avtori ki
gansazRvravs strategiulad ra unda rom daweros
di: ho, Sinaarss, mimarTulebas
volandi: magram imas, Tu rogor unda daweros, anu,
konkretul formas, Cvens yovel gadalaparakebas, Cven
TviTon vkarnaxobT?
berliozi: daaxloebiT asea
tomi: kargi, davuSvaT raRac gaurkvevel Tavisuflebas
mivageniT
brigita: arc ise gaurkvevelia, saintereso paradoqsi
gamodis – iq sadac avtori izRudeba, personaJi
Tavisufldeba
heklberi: me mgoni aq ganTavisuflebis magivrad
damoukidebloba unda gamoviyenoT
di: eseigi, rodesac is avtorisagan damoikideblad iwyebs
moqmedebas
berliozi: anu, rodesac avtors personaJis xasiaTi da
warsuli karnaxobs ra unda gaakeTos da ara nawarmoebis
zogadi CarCo
volandi: me mgoni amas SeiZleba Tavisuflebac ki davarqvaT
69
TeTri orqidea: im azriT, rom am Tavisuflebis Tu
damoukideblobis momentebSi Sen Sens Semoqmedze ar
xar damokidebuli da misgan Tavisufldebi
tomi: SeiZleba egerec vTqvaT
heklberi: maSin gamodis, rom absoluturi azriT me
mainc raRacaze var damokidebuli, magram am samyaros
konkrtulobaSi aris momentebi da mTeli pasaJebic
ki, rodesac damoukidebeli da Tavisufali var?
brigita: ho, egrea.
beki: kargi. raki davadgineT Cveni Tavisuflad yofnis
SesaZlebloba, Cveni yofnis formazec xom ar
gvesaubra?
volandi: eg sainteresoa?
TeTri orqidea: albaT
di: ara mgonia. ra unda iyos saintereso imaSi, rom
vlaparakobT
berliozi: ki ar vlaparakobT, dialogs veweviT
tomi: dialogSi varT
heklberi: hoda, am dialogSi yofnas Tavisi azri
unda qondes, Torem xom SeeZlo avtors Cveulebrivi,
naratiuli, TxrobiTi stiliT daewera risi Tqmac undoda
brigita: hoda, mkiTxvelebi rom moezida, es forma moifiqra
di: alabT egrec iyo, magram mxolod es ar unda iyos
dialogis da monologis gansxvaveba
brigita: monologis?
volandi: ho, dialogis garda yvela sxva weris forma
monologia
berliozi: maSin is Tvisebebi unda CamovTvaloT, rac
monologs aqvs da mere vnaxavT dialogi risi maqnisia da
ratom varT masSi moqceulebi
tomi: nuu, monologi yovelTvis raRcas amtkicebs
TeTri orqidea: monologis moyola advilia, mosmenis Semdeg
heklberi: monologebis citireba SeiZleba
beki: me mgoni, mniSvnelovania, rom monologi
erTmniSnelovnad ambobs rasac ambobs, anu, iwyeba msjelobiT
da mTavrdeba daskvniT
di: Sen ginda Tqva, rom monologi calsaxa da
sworxazovania?
70
TeTri orqidea: yvela ara, magram Tavisi formiT
naratiuli diskursi, anu, TxrobiTi stili, wesi,
gamoxatvis forma, aseTia
volandi: dialogi raRa jandabaa?
berliozi: aqedan gamomdinare, dialogs sapirispiro
niSnebi aqvs
tomi: magaliTad ra?
brigita: is, rom dialogs ver mohyvebi dialogad, is
monologad unda mohyve, rac misi gadmocemis formas
cvlis
heklberi: da maSasadame Sinaarssac
beki: ho, dialogi an unda dadga, ramdeni moqmedi
piricaa, imdenis monawileobiT, an unda monologad
aqcio
di: Tan, dialogi albaT, yvelaze ufro hgavs im
process, azris gaCena rom hqvia – sxvadasxva azrebis
Sejereba, winaamRdegobebis Zebna, raime daskvnebis
gakeTeba da ase usasrulod
TeTri orqidea: anu, dialogi TviTon aris azri
volandi: dialogi aris azri mTlianobaSi, da ara misi
daskvna da sabolood miRebuli debuleba
berliozi: mTeli dialogi aris is, rasac SeiZleba azri
davarqvaT
tomi: da is, rasac monologebiT vismenT – msolod azris
moWrili boloebia
brigita: ki magram, dialogebidan gamomdinare azrebs xom
iyeneben xolme?
heklberi: mxolod mas mere, rac monologad gardaqmnian
beki: eseigi, dialogi aris erTaderTi forma, romlidanac ar
gemuqreba arc Seni azrebis gadasxvafereba, arc raimes
miwera Senze?
di: ho, faqtiurad egrea. dialogi imitom ki ar aris
dialogi, rom ramdenime adamians Soris midinareobs, aramed
imitom, rom is aiZulebs avtoris warmosaxvas mTlianad
azri gadmosces, yoveli msjeloba ganixilos pro da
kontrebiT, da sabolood mogvces azri mTlianad,
Seukveceli da dauWreli
TeTri orqidea: amitom dialogs ver moyvebi, mxolod
SegiZlia dawero
71
volandi: da ra azri aqvs imis daweras, rasac ver
moyvebi?
berliozi: is azri, rom dialogi aris erTaderTi
forma, romelic SeiZleba gamoiyeno werisas da amave
dros ar miiRo naweri
tomi: anu, wero ise, rom ar wero?
brigita: ho, wero ise, rom ar wero, imotom, rom
weris mizania azris gadmocema, dawurva, erT-or
winadadebaSi moqceva, informaciis gadacema
sxvisaTvis, mokled da gasagebad
heklberi: maSin dawerili dialogi dauwereli
gamodis?
beki: ho, da eg aris dauwereli filosofiis azri –
platons rom awerdnen da mere didxans eZbdnen
di: platonis dauwereli filosofia misi
dialogebia?
TeTri orqidea: zustad
volandi: ras ar gaigeb kaci
berliozi: me mgoni Zalian kargi formac gvaqvs –
monologebs weren da kiTxuloben imisaTvis, rom
ilaparakon, mohyvenen.
beki: ho, da dialogs ver acitireb, Tu acitireb – erT-
erTi personaJis monologis citireba gamogiva da amitom es
ar iqneba dialogis citireba
tomi: marTalia – dialogi aris azris gadmocema – amitom
is salaparakod ar gibiZgebs, is gibiZgebs fiqrisaken da
sakuTar TavSi dialogis aRmoCenisaken
brigita: daiwyo ezoterika
heklberi: aranairi ezoterika – struqturaa aseTi –
teqstebs Soris mxolod dialogia iseTi, rasac ver
gamoTqvam – rom gamoTqva, sxva teqstad unda gardaqmna
beki: da maSin is ukve dialogi aRar iqneba
di: Tu gamoTqvam, dialogis bunebas kargav
TeTri orqidea: an SeiZleba dadga
volandi: maSin xom gamoTqma aRar iqneba – iqneba dadgma da
azris gaTamaSeba
72
berliozi: SegviZlia vTqvaT, rom yvela monologs,
anda, nebismier teqsts safuZvlad dialogi da
dialoguroba udevs?
tomi: ra Tqma unda – nebismieri teqsti aris
dialogis gardaqmna gamosayeneblad, gasayidaT,
bazarze gasatanad
brigita: rac sul ar niSnavs, rom es cudia
heklberi: sulac ara – ubralod yofnis sxvadasxva
formebze valparakobT
beki: da ubralod, vcdilobT vifiqroT iq, im
adgilas, romelic yvelaze ufro Seefereba azrs –
dialogSi
di: marTalia – sxva mxriv, monologur-teqsturi
fiqri hgavs produqtis gayidvas warmoebis procesis
CvenebiT
TeTri orqidea: eg xom xdeba xolme – sareklamo
rgolebSi produqciis warmoebis simulacias rom
axdenen
volandi: aba ra – magaliTad, risgan Sedgeba
snikersi, rogor iwarmoeba yava Cibo
berliozi: gamodis, rom monologiur-teqsturoba Cveni
yoveldRiurobis safuZvelSia
tomi: da dialoguroba aris erTaderTi gza vifiqroT
fiqris, da ara gayidvis da gasaRebis formiT
brigita: ase gamodis
heklberi: davbrundeT iq, sadac
beki: arsad ar unda davbrundeT – dialogi arsad ar
wasula, eg fraza – davbrundeT – aseve gasayidi formaa,
germaneli vaWrebi mimarTaven xolme
di: yovelTvis CvenTan iyo da yovelTvis SegveZlo misTvis
migvemarTa
TeTri orqidea: mokled – mag sentimentalobebs SeveSvaT,
erTi xom cxadia – Cven Cveni dialogebiT fiqrze varT
mimarTulebi da vcdolobT azrovnebas
volandi: ki magram, wignis maRaziaSi rom gaviyidebiT, es ar
aris raRac Secdoma Cvens dialogSi?
tomi: ra azriT – monologad xom ar viqceviT?
brigita: ara, ubralod, monologis formaSi gavexveviT,
droebiT, da mere Cven viciT
volandi: es raRac SeTqmulebis msgavsia
73
berliozi: aba sxvanairad rogor unda wavakiTxoT
Tavi?
volandi: droze davamTavroT, Torem ukve ise
vlaparakobT, monologuri suni avuSviT
tomi: ise, Tu exla gvkiTxuloben, es niSnavs, rom
ukve waikiTxes yvela dialogi, rac am wignSia?
brigita: ar aris aucilebeli, SeiZleba CveniT
daiwyes
heklberi: mere ra, Tu aqamde movidnen, sxvebsac
waikiTxaven
beki: vnaxoT