Yes, weii he gave you Ange17s house, hliguel Angel. 1:

C : No, no, 1 wes going t o teU you something e b e , you said, comandante, t h a t 1 .

should te l l you everything about hlig~e! Angel, right?

1: Y es, everything.

C : That persgn 1s en acquaintsnce of Miguel Angel, they were raised to:eihere '

1: Who?

C: Juen Gercie has a nickname, he ES kiUel severa! people there in Cu l i ec~n . He played basketball wiih Miguel Angel.

.. 1: Juan Gercia?

C: Yes, the t r s whet 1 know him ELS.

Eow is t h e t person? 1:

B e is a person about 37 or 40 yeors old, taller than me, he meesures ebout . . . . e * C: 1

Where does he l ive?

C : 1: is he who 1iv.s in blc-Alion r i j h t now, C O K I E ~ ~ E ~ ~ ~ *

E e is f r o n Culiecon?

E e K.ES bc in in Cslizcan, sir.

And the h o o i c l t ha t 3:;. Eelix-C-=2s:?ai "50 E ~ V ? it t o yos?

'ihe cne et t3e t r i z n ~ l e ?

1: Y es.

C: 1 Iezrnoi :>a; f r ~ ' ; n R c g ~ K I . ~ ? ? .

1: \$:.o g=ve i: t3 :,iix? R e n e n h r , 2cn.t b2 &?Ei&

C : Yei, yei , one time he fo3awe? blig-el Angel there, there w S . . . Look, nc"o¿y is f;i::ing you.

C: F ,here r e s en offico, near where tbey were listeniris, r i jh t ? - 1: Y es.

C: Otorbenbo, a s:reei behind Cuehtenoc; what is the neme of t h e t s t r ee t ?

C : Wester B e r n b , Otorbambo?

1: Netzahualcoyoth, Coyoacan?

C: No, sone th ing like Waterbanibo.

1: Cabron, weW;e not f r o n here. How a re we going to know the streots; don? be funny.

C: When you Ieave the Lopez h?ete.ss laterfa, you take Cuehternoc, right, crosing.

1: Axayacath, hloctezuna?

C: Paratfel t o Cuahtemoc, bloctezuna, Cuehtenoc, which is t h e one there by the Hyatt?

1: -- Neyzzhuahcuyoth, why these questions? Who do you want t o Iocate?

C: S o , no, you donrt want me t o teLl you abaut Miguel Angel?

1: You a r e t he one who is going t o ~nstver! i

C : Yes, sir, end 1 h o w that, one t ime Agent Roger Knepp? he was passing by there with Mike Acuna, the one 1 told you was f r o n hlexico end wes in cherge of the investi- gation there; they were passing by there, e t tha t t ime bliguel Angel was arriving, 1 believe with two escorts, end they foiiowec! t h e n end stopped with thefr pistols in their han& en¿ identified thern. They told t h e n , according t o hlr. Knepp, t ha t e: tha t corner there wes an office the t h1ig)el Angel went t o frequently. 1 know how t o find the plece, bu: t ha t they hed cfiices theie. Leter, Comendante Fisher toId us tkey had moved f r o n tacre.

1: And hcw Cid they h o w ?

A C: Si;., c;u!C 1 rt;cve g:our,d x t t l e t glit ~ZYSCIZ R C F ~ C O T ; ~ ~ O T ~ E ~ ! i

1 : Gei czn;fcrtcL,lej ycu ter, nove , the.2 ¿c no prcSle.i1.

. . C: A: w ~ i k , -5s sir; e_; 1 t c l t you, t3ey put hin; in c5z.g- c: t3e investip2:icn c f h!i~ze! Azp!: El Otcr Wekco, he wgs, he h&c' o:ters l i rec t iy f:o;;l tiie Directcr cf the Judicial Poiice. E P re-3crted CfrectIy to Lorrobenuio, directly witn t3e Director, e k u t t;le ¿el' wi th h:i?el Angel, ebcut w h ~ : wcs going cn here in Guadaleje:;.e. The ¿e:si!s he wen te l P,e gzve t o R q e ? . Rogei I'ZZ?? t 3 ~ r t p i C S enC we2, esch re?cr: t:tct w s nzc'e in t>e of f ics we r-22, t::&tis why T n t e 2 . i ~ ~ you ~ h u : t 'x t hccsz.

C: - Le: n e e q l e i n how the t l e a l wes. In Medco Lorrobaquio hookod up on a telephone, of a guy who hes a rench in Verecruz, right. Now l e t me re r í iemkr , Irm going t o t e 3 you everything, cornendante.

1: No problen. You go on!

C : A men w ho has a ranch with an airstrip in Veracruz.

Who made the plan?

1 understand that it was General Santano in Mexico, from there they went to Chihuahua and entered the Buffalo.

Who entered?

The agents who went to Mexico.

Who went at the front of the operation?

1 understand that Aloana went.

They didnst know you?

1 didnst participate in that.

1 know you didnlt participate, te11 me?

C: Comandante Aloana went as the man in charge, they hit, one went in where the cook had said. The people they detained there told them there had been some guards there who were working for the government of Mexico, those guards were from the Direcion (DFS) and they were always arned and they told us we could not enter or leave.

The nane of one of those guards?

C: Only that there'were guarils.

1: What else?

C: 1 donlt know if in Chihuahua or in anotker pzrt, c r Ciudzt! Obregon, Ciudad Juzrez, pardon, thct thoy hzd. detafned 4 people 2nd that they were in a heroin lzboratory.

1: Fihose laboratory is it?

C: Aecordfng to the Interrogatfon they said thet il vas, I don t rerne&er, but loa2 sir, I ara telling you tke truth, they caught 4 people there In the laboratory, t h e truth, they dldn" te31 me anything.

What did the report say?

C: Tbat they had detained 4 people in the laboratory.

1: n o wac the infomant?

f donse know that, sir, I think that eveqthing carne

out as a result of

Who made the detention?

Pardon?

Who made the affair of this detention?

Aloanafs people.

Aloanals people?

Yes.

Wño met them?

The report doesnlt indicate.

Where did they get the data or what appears in the same report?

At the same time that they did that operation they discovered that laboratory.

Talk to me about the ~hihuahua operation.

Yes, this, they entered and from there they began to look for more f ields, cam-S and from there they entered one or two, that they had encountered others overflying also 2nd encountered a llrge field of marijuana crauera? The dimensions were some eighty hectares, the report indicates that the workers said there was a pickup with a person who they believed was Rafael Caro ~uint~ro, this, the report nothing indicates who exactly, this, that there were many detained in the ca-.

Go cn rezding the regorl?

Yes, it said that, according to them, people had left the camp the day bezore and had left al1 of thez obandoned there, they Sien8 t know where to so, that tkey were being paid 5,000 pesos a day for the work end they had been there fcr three, four months, packaging, weighing, separating the marijuana,

This, the report indicates they wanted, the agent from Iiemosillo, the chief cf the office fron Hemosillo, wanted to coordinate the affair with the cosrdinator from Chihuahua, I donf t reme&er his name, but on two oceacionc he said the machine was busy and the others

were in another place and finally, he didnft want to. After this, the agent from Hermosillo went to Mexico with our chief; at first they said there were 10,000 tons, but in the last reports they made, they analyzed there are between 2,000 and 4,000 tons. There was not so much, they had exaggerated the volume and the weight; there had been some trucks there; they used them to carry the marijuana, they didnft know where to, but they were taking out 2 or 3 trucks daily; they didntt know where they were going.

1: %'here did the report expect, names you learned?

c: Truly, 1 have no reason to hide names, you see 1 am telling you what 1 read, names, 1 donft remember, 1 only remember that some people commented that the field was Caro Quinterofs, nobody said they had seen him, nobody

- said they knew him, that had come from the guards, they had been led to believe that it was Rafael Caro Quintero's. They stayed there a week looking and analyzing and asking questions, this, many of them were contracted in Chihuahua, the state of Sonora and in Sinaloa, that they had cone because of the lack of work and they needed to work.

1: No, you arenlt telling me anything, you son oE a bitch.

C: No, that is whzt 1 om readinc, what 1 reaenber from the report.

I: blere is the place where Caro's house is, xho cave you that other report?

C: On the corner of Xochith and Cuahtemoc.

1: bao cave you that re-ort?

C: Jesus Alvarez--gave me that.

1: What else do you know about the deaf in Chihuahua, but there in Chihuahua?

C: There 1 dontt hhave knowledge, sir, only whzt the report salid.

1: Fjho coordinated the operation?

C: An agentr from Mexlco.

1: Whatgs hic name?

C: Charles Lago.

An Army plane. There was a meeting in Zacatecas, Zac. between the girl that 1 mentioned, she came to introduce the General who was in Zacatecas then to Rafael Caro, the person said he didn8t personally see Rafael Caro, but

Who gave you that information?

Juan Garcia, that is the name 1 know him by, sir. What does Juan Garcia do?

He is an informant.

But what does he do, Cabron?

He works for us, he doesn8t have any other job that 1 know o£.

Where does he live?

He lives in McAllen, Texas. 1 dontt know exactly where.

Where can you locate him in Mexico?

He doesn't come to Mexico.

How do you locate him, how do you find hix?

Me? In the McAllen office.

Iv'nat is his adlress in Mchllen?

He has an apartment, but 1 donlt know it.

Knere is he?

After he did the 6ezl in Zacatecas, he vent to live in McXllen.

1: What deal?

C: The last one Aloana uent to.

I: For you, what is Juan G+rcials position?

C: We is an informant.

1: iulhat is his importante?

C: He is v e r y important, because he mows eve~body, he is, he grew up, he is from Cuhialan,

His characteristics?

He is tall, about 1.85 in height.

Screw your-mother, you say everybody is 1.80.

He is about 40 years old.

Take the Chicharra.

No, sir.

Go on, well, son of a bitch, well, go on.

He has brown eyes, a medium pointed nose.

What is a pointed nose?

Sharp, he has a mole on his right cheek, brown eyes, face medium round, this, according to him he is very good with a pistol. He has severa1 deaths to his credit, this, after he made that deal for us there in Zacatecas he went to live in McAllen. 1 have talked to him one time, this month with him.

His telephone nunber?

1 dontt know, he was in the office in McAllen whsn 1 called there 2nd they told me he was there.

Go on telling ne.

Yes, he dresses like a cowboy al1 the tine.

Fihat is "cowboylt?

Boots, cowboy, levis, checked shirt.

His hair?

Bis hair is light brok?i, ccnbed back.

Brown, 1 say itts cropped, he conSs it back, itls receding very little.

Neight?

Xets about 1.85, 1.86, taller than me.

C: He is fair, he has a mole.

1: Some other particular mark, his arms, manner of walking.

C: He walks normal.

1: Where does he have his family?

C: 1 understand he is from Culiacan, and has a family, he says he doesn't go to Culiacan because he owes for some killings, that he has been threatened.

1: Who threatened him?

C: Come people from Culiacan, he didn't te11 me, the sane people, relatives of the people he said he killed.

Who are they, he must have given you names.

C: 1 say, he must have told me, but 1 donlt remember them right now, sir. ir'

.. . 1: Do you want another?

C: No sir, relatives of those he killed.

1: You went to the Zacateczs thing zlso?

C: Yes.

1: h1i.o and who went?

C: Me and my office here in Guadzlajara.

1: How xiizny were there?

C: We were two, three and Xr. Roger Xnapp, another of the acjents, that vas in Hay, to that went Conandantes Loro Bacio and Comandante Aloana, both pzrticipatedin the

I: And in that of Chihuahua, the Federal Comandante cooperated with you?

1: And the coordinator?

C: Aloana.

1: Not the Federal comandante of Chihuahua?

C: No, 1 understand not.

8

1: And who was the comandante?

C: 1 donlt know, sir.

1: Donlt be, look.

C: No, 1 know that Arteaga was there, but Arteaga was here when the business i n Chihuahua took place.

1: Who was the group there?

C: In Chihuahua, look 1 donlt know, we donlt work that zone, sir.

1: Comandante what?

C: Arteaga.

1: Standup.

C: 1 donlt know, 1 donlt know, 1 donlt know.

1: Do you want me to make you remember?

1: ~o'~ou want wgter?

C: 1 b o w that because o: the machines. 1 knoi th+t Ccmandante Arteaga cane from Chihuahua hore to GuaCalzj ara.

1: And why do you think he didnlt wznt to cooperzte with you?

C: 1 donlt know, sir, he has never cooporatei with us, he, he, he, after, after the 6eal in Chinurhua, aboct z weok ar two after he carne he saiC he didnlt knox enythirig about it, because we asked hin.

1: Or you went to te11 hin? It was you who told him about the fields?

C: Yes, but at that time, Arteaga wasnlt there, sir.

1: Then who did you tell?

C : The Comandante, but 1 donlt know him, but you must understand sir, that we work zones. like 1 can te11 you who is the comandante in Tepic, truthfully, who is the comandante af Puerto Vallarta, because those are the zones that belong tu us, on the other hand, Chihuahua, doesntt belong to us, we donlt work that.

1: Who is t h e comandante of V a l l a r t a ?

C: Carlos Alvarado, 1 d o n ' t know h i s o t h e r l a s t narne.

1: And t h e d e a l i n Zacatecas, what is h i s narne?

C: Juan Garcia, 1 know him by Juan Garcia.

1: He l i v e d t h e r e i n Zacatecas?

Well, he l i v e d i n F r e s n i l l o .

1: I n F r e s n i l l o ?

C: Yes, he was a p i s t o l e r o o f , what is h i s name? 1 d o n l t remember h i s name r i g h t now, now, now 1 remember t h e name

1: And what d i d he do? -

C: P l a n t marijuana, now 1 remember h i s name, p lease , t h a t Lopez, d o n l t h i t me p lease , now 1 remember.

2

. I 1: The people t h a t work wi th Ernesto Fonseca, what names

do you know?

C: 1 knox t v o people, one i s S+nuel, 1 c?onlt know his surncze, t h e o t h e r i s t h e l ahyer Euijberto Zenuejas- Zenuejas.

1: Do you know then?

C: Only by name, 1 h+ve pe r sona l ly never seen then.

Fn+t house does t h i s Saxuel hrve?

C: Samuel h+s an apartmeni t h e r e on Cangrejo, Ca l l e Cangrej o behind t h e S u i t e s Real, 1 d o n l t knov t h e nunber of t h e apa r tnen t .

1: %%.o t o l d you t h a t ?

C : Chuy Afvarez.

I: And you b e l i e v e everything t h a t Cabron says?

C: Well, n o t everything, sir.

I: Lis ten , and t h e house cf t h a t pig?

C : It is on C a l l e Carnero, b u t 1 don't remeaer t h e exac t number, sir, b u t yes it is on C a l l e C a r n e r o

The whereabouts of Xiguel Felix, where can we find him?

1 know he goes to suites Real a lot, he has an apartment there and he has an office.

YOU know why?

Why do you know?

Well he has been seen there, right, 1 have pa~sed by thereand 1 have seen his car.

What car does he have?

He has a Grand Marquis, yellow color.

You have gone to check it?

When I1m cping past, 1 donlt go there to check, only when 1 go by.

To where?

With a cozpanion who lives in Santa Anita, but not now.

This coiapanion, ihat is his name?

Victor Wallace, it is one thing that 1, like 1 erplained before, sir, it is very dangerous here in Guadalajara and they donlt let us participate, we have orders that ve dontt participate, now, 1 knoii o: the Estrellas Park, because they gave me a telephone they were usinc, they asked for details on that telephone.

1: What telephone is it?

C: 22 it is M22-97, 1 donltreme&erf sir.

I: That telephone who gave it to you?

C: Look, that telephone, f irst, they gaye us the location of the house, let me te11 you how it is sir.

1: But clear.

C: Y ~ s , clear, they gave us the address of t he hause. that that, going near the Estrellas Park, they didntt know where exactly, then, we began, 1 say, like that person,

Chuy Alvarez Verob, began to take turns around there.

In what vehicle was Chuy Alvarez going?

C: He has a Grand Marquis, gold color, with a vinyl top, 1 mean half vinyl top, black.

1: And the tags?

C: The last time that 1 saw it the car didnlt have tags.

And he is still taking turns around there?

C: No, not now, for some time since then, as 1 say, now he is in security.

1: And when he was taking turns there what was he in?

C: He was in that car.

But what was he working in?

C: Before he was a police of one of the Comandantes or subdirector of the Zapopan Police.

1: And in what other houses can we locate Miguel?

C: 1. te11 you that 1 know those the thinq that was nezr Estrellas Park. Up MP 1 know vhere Miguel lives.

1: They havenlt told you any other donicile where we can find him?

C: No, if 1 knew 1 would te11 you, sir, 1, why wouldnlt 1, if 1 knew Isd te11 you, 1 hcve nothing to hide, you seo, vho can stand this, why would 1 lie to you, sir.

And what problem loes he h+ve with you?

C: Personal he says, 1 say, as 1 explained before, they have seized some, one cocaine that is entering by air;>l+ne.

I: kaere was i t seized? -

C: In the state of Arizona, 1 don't remeder exactly the

1: Your companion that was just changed from Laredo, tiid he participate in that, the dnig seizure?

C: No, he doesnt t have anything to do with that, nor the other agent, that was the Phoenix off ice , well not so much the Phoenix office, in truth, because they saw the *

a i rp lane land and they ca l l ed t h e Cher i ja to and t h e Cheri jato Que Al la and detained t h e people.

And i n o ther p laces YOU i n t e r cep t telephones?

There, with a judge ts order , sir, t h e r e is a law t h a t w e have, t h a t w e cannot i n t e r cep t telephones t h e r e without a judge S order , i f i t l s not j a i l f o r us , they f i re u s f rom our job and they give u s t h e j a i l .

And here, how do you g e t the telephones of those people?

M r . Cardenas, Alberto Cardenas is who is known t h e r e i n Telefonos D e Mexico.

Who is i t ?

There, yes, 1 d o n l t know, sir, w e t a l k t o him, w e g ive him t h e number and he g e t s it f o r us , t h e d e t a i l s .

And who else has telephones? The c a l l s of who else have YOU checked? Well, look, many requests a r r i v e from t h e United S t a t e s , r i g h t , t h i s asking fo= telephone numbers.

And you ask f o r them?

Yes, i f they a r e Guadalajarz numbers, o t b e are+ t h a t corresponds t o US, t h i s , we t a l k t o t h i s M r . Cardenas end he g e t s u s t h e d e t a i l s , we wr i t e e r e ~ o r t end ve send it back, then i n t h e r epo r t s ve put , it is d i f f i c u l t t o obta in a telephone l i n e here i n Guadalajara, sometimes t h e naiie t h a t appears on t h e r e c e i p t is not t h e person t h a t ac tua l ly l i v e s t he re .

You a r e being s tupid .

No sir, no sir, 1 c a n 1 t s tand t h i s , 1 have no reason.

Eow do you ask f o r a telephone nunber, a r e YOU asking f o r a telephone n

the nane? Ha, look. perhaps 1 d i d n 8 t e m l a i n sir. ibis, tbe telephone n Cardenas, and w e give him t h e telephone number, he has a contact i n Telefonos de Mexico, M r . Cardenas gives t h e number t o Telefonas de Mexico, t h e person who works i n Telefonos de Mexico de l ive r s t h e d e t a i l s t o Mr. Cardenas# Mr. Cardenas g ives it t o us.

And have YOU caught t h e i r calls?

S dontt understand, sir.

Have you heard the telephone calls that YOU have to investigate?

No.

What apparatuses do YOU have there in your office?

There, look, we have the mobil portable radios, there are 3 portables. Those walkie-talkies, there are 2 lunch boxes.

The lunch boxes, what are those?

They are also portable radios, but they are bigger. they look like lunch boxes.

And in what. frequency do they work?

The frequency is around 400 UHB, in the papers that 1 carry the frequencies, it was a little blue paper.

And those bigcjer radios, what do you use then for? Those 40 in the car, there we have, 1 don't know if YOU saw in the pickup it has, there is, we have radios in 211 the czrs.

h'iiat cars 20 you have? How nany cars lo you have?

There are 4 cars.

What cars are they?

A blue ' 8 4 pickup that 1 have, there is + jeep.

h%at color?

Copper color.

Are they al1 Arnerican?

Yes, al1 are ~merican.

Letls see, what other?

A white Caprice, ' 8 5 4-door, and an $ 8 5 Monte Carlo, znaroon color.

A blue ~alaxie car, whose is it?

1: Blue, dark color, of one of your companions.

C: NO, we are 4 agents here, sir.

1: A 4-door Nova, ,- color?

C: Idonttknow it.

1: A white Galaxie, 4-doors with half vinyl top, red?

C: Red, no, we used to have an '81 LTD, but it was shot-up at Rogerts house, that car went back to the United

. . States. t

1: About the other car 1 asked you about?

C : No,. 1 dontt know it, sir, 1 have no reason to lie to you .

1: How long have you had those vehicles?

C: Well (Los Ochen) u

1: But; who, youlre changing then often, thatls why YOU dontt know then?

C: NO, look, the pickup has been here since April.

1: There on Moctezuna Street, YOU had an apartnent, there on Eoctezuiaa, which of your companions hzs tnat blue car, who case there?

C: Look, renenber that 1 vas telling you, the telephone th+t ves being tapped at Lzs plnericas that there is where the judicial federal wes listeninc

1: Then it was the judicial federal?

C: It was being coordinated in Hexico, with Comandante

I: What did they catch there?

C: They didn't catch anything, sir.

1: There was no way to have this Miguel?

C: No, he is in the embassy in Mexico.

1: No, the one you say is in Las Americas?

15

C: Nothing came about, sir, so it was finally discontinued and abandoned.

1: And who has the blue car?

C: 1 dontt know it, that is where they had the car, in that apartment, look, there were some agents of the judicial federal, that were there.

1: That wasnlt a federal agent?

C: No, look, the one in charge of that investigation was Roger Knapp, right, but he had the white LTD, the one that was shot up, there were some federal agents, the one who was in charge of coordinating that, the telephone tap, was Comandante Tisher (Fisher.)

1: Comandante Tisher?

Yes.

And he is the one who tapped the Las Americas telephone?

Yes.

And this conandante, where is he frori?

Ee is here in GuaBalajarc, he is second ct the Judiczl Federal . And at the tine Conandante Fisher was tapping the telephones, was he here?

No, he came froa Kexico. He was coordinating thinqs froiii Mexico.

The 4-door Chevy Nova, whose is it?

No. 1 donlt know it, 1 have no reason to lie to you, 1 told you about the cars.

In this investigation we have, we have a lot of details, we have let you get by with a lot, but there are lot of things that . . . He was in charge of the operation, he got together with Roger Knagp, they exchanged infomation.

But you must have more infomation about that person, or rather, when someone goes, you people come, you have better infomation, because you have a lot of time

working this affair, they move us very often; then?

C: The, that blue Galaxie, 1 donlt know it.

1: Well, what other infomation do you have about that friend that we can use?

C: About Mi~uel?

1: Yes.

C: Well, as 1 told you he drives a yellow Grand Marquis.

But where can we find him?

Well, where 1 have seen the car is at the Suites Real.

What have you talked about with Comandante Fisher? Or where have you seen then? Or where can you locate him? Or something, 1 don't think they have nothing in al1 that

Look, the infomation from there, nothing czne out to seize cocaine, as 1 said they were tapping the Las Aiiericas telephone, this, as 1 said they changed a frequency we have, where you comxunicate Miguel Ancel (No, no, ny conanüante, we)

Frien you were in Con Tubernio did they pass you sone money, or what? To who, sir?

Vere you getting paid there, that is what we want to kzlcw?

Nct us, 1 never have received noney (de noche)

1: Your friends?

C: As far as 1 know, they haven't received.

1: W a t house does this friend have?

1: That Angel Felix?

C : 1 donpt know, he doesn't live there, it 2s a house on the Estrellas Park.

1: You already told me that, but where does he live right now?

1 d o n l t know t o te11 you, sir.

W e need h i s address.

1 d o n l t know where he l i v e s , sir.

What does he look l i k e ? Don't l i e .

No, sir, no, no.

How is he then?

He is a person about 35 years o ld , he i s t a l l , f a i r sk in , i n inches he is about 5'11' t o 6 feet , l i g h t eyes, l i g h t brown h a i r , he d r ives t h e Grand Marquis t h a t 1 t o l d you.

How many people a r e with him.

Look, you hear about 1 6 people on t h e radio.

But, who i s with him, how many bodyguards does he have?

That 1 have seen; only a f e w people.

kho i s i t ?

A nan with a h a t , sir, 1 Cont t know h i n by gane.

Have you soen him irom a l i s t a n c e , how do you know he is with him? W e l l , look, sir, on one occasion, 1 wzs passing by t h e park, not by t h e E s t r e l l a s Park, by t h e o f Marirno Otero, 1 s a i outs ide t he re , Miguel's caz was parked a= t h e corner, we went t o e a t 2nd when ve cane back, t h e c a r was there . The person was s t i l l the re , from a d i s tance 1 saw hin .

Who went?

M e and t h e ch i e f , we went t o e a t . -

What car d i d YOU have?

We had, t h e white LTD t h a t was sho t up.

When was t h e shooting?

Around October, sir.

Who sho t t h e car?

C: They say it was Samuel, the one 1 said has the apartment there on Cangrejos.

1: Who does Samuel work for?

C: He works for Ernesto Fonseca.

1: How did you get the radio frequency?

C: Engineer Aceves gave it to me.

1: And the telephone, who gave it to you?

C: 'Look.

1: Because we can pick up the one who gave you the telephone and he can take us to Miguel's house.

C: Look, Engineer Aceves told us that, let me explain, sir, how that . . .

1: Wetre listening to you.

Engineer Aceves went and installed some radios there for Miguel Angels not him personally, it was one of his workers, they went to insta11 some radios there on Las Estrellas Park. Ee dilnlt know exactly the aldress. Ee only knev it vas on a corner one block fron Mariano Otero, there is a directory, blue 1 think, that is put out by Telefonos de Mexico, anyone can buy it, it gives the names and n d e r s of the streets, ve began to look around there and we found vhere Miguel Angel's czr vas parked, there at tne corner of Las Estrellas Park, we got the address. 1 say ve 50t the address of there at Las Estrellas Park, end looking in the blue book the telephone nuzber carne out, it is a 22 to 97, but 1 Cont t renezber the nuiier exactly.

C: Nobody, sir,

- - -ive us infomation, who gave infomation to you:

I: Cooperate Cabron, youtre being maje.

-.

I: Who else, that you know, who can take us to him?

1: Give me some good information and wetll let you rest for a while.

C: Ok, yes, 1'11 te11 you. Look, the right arm that you hear talk a lot on the radio, right, who sounds like he has authority is Tomas Valles-Corral.

1: Yes?

C: On Pablo Garcia Street, near aqueducto is a house that has gold doors, like gold aluminum, we have seen the car there

1: What car?

C: He has a Grand Marquis, it*s blue*

1: What telephone does he have?

1: With the telephone we'll find the house, did you tap it too?

' C: There, no, sir, the only telephone that was tapped was the Hotel U s Anericas.

1: Of sorye other person of Rafael, of Ernesto, what other persons does he have that work with that nan?

There is o Mister Ha-er, he is a banker.

1: h7here does he live?

C: 1 don't know where he lives, but 1 know where he h+s -

his offices. 1: Good, one that we can locate? Give rus the in:or;i+nts

you had. Well, what are you waiting for? Donst you wznt to 50, if you give them to me tonorrow or later, why not now end you can leave sooner?

C: He who was giving me the infomation on Miguel Angel, is that person Jesus Alvarez.

I : Wbo is that man?

C : It is he that I said was the sub-comandante or sub- director of the Zapopan Police.

1: And how does he know?

C: He has people working for the Dan.

26

Still, even though he does not work for the police, he has people working for him?

Yes, he has people, sir.

He has people who get information?

Yes, sir.

Who are they?

1 have never known any one of them.

And how do you know they work for him? Which of your friends has a red motorcycle?

Nobody has a red motorcycle, absolutely nobody.

This Alvarez, where does he live?

I donlt know exactly, sir, 1 know the telephone, 22-97- 10.

But in which area do you think he lives?

I imagine he lives zround Chapalita.

Well, 1 say, 1 hzve never been in his house, 1 have never gone, 1 bon't.knorr where he lives, no sir, by memory, no.

Khatootiier car coes he hzve?

The only one 1 know is the Grznd Marqis, if you vil1 let ne look in the paprs 1 hzd, probably I have sane other pagers, 1'11 give thel to you, I te11 you one notos doím tiie first name and 1'11 te11 you, that is if 1 can renember who they are.

But, if you dontt renesSer? -

No, sir, 1'3.1 rene&er.

You, what kind of car do you have?

1 have the pickup from wcrk, and I have a Malibu.

A blue Malibu?

No, it is two-tone, beige, light on top, and b r o m below.

23.

What model.

And a Dart slKsl, that was running around yesterday or the day before.

Dart "KgS?

Black or blue, or which of your friends?

Dart llKgl?

Dart stK1g, or Le Baron, you were in it yesterday or the day bef ore.

Yesterday, me, sir?

Yesterday or the day before, look we have a lot of investigation, only youlre acting stupid or you donst want to cooperate. .. Of the one you were with?

.-

Of Chuy Alvarez, 1'11 have to see, it is a -22-69.

More Tehuolan?

No, sir.

k%+t tele~hone loes Mr. Gallardo have in his house.

It is a 22 also, something like 97-10 or 10-97, 1 1 ~ not sure of the nusr5er.

Look, so youlll be sure, right nov. Yculre going to te11 us what you didnlt want to te11 before we gave you the water. Do you want more water?

No sir, no, no,

None of this coincides, where does Gallardo live?

1 don't know the house, sir, look you have to understand

You. al1 the time you know more, only you swallow it.

No, look, sir, you have to understand, we, you saw right now, when they letained me, 1 am nat amed and 1 am not gaing to look f o r people that I know have protection.

1: But your i n foman t s , t h e one who t e l l s you knows?

C: 1 te11 you, I t t s one of t h e t h ings w e have never been ab le t o know, sir, where t h i s Miguel l i v e s , no, w e don ' t know, t r u l y , 1 swear t h a t 1 d o n t t know where he l i v e s .

1: What else do you have agains t t h i s person, t h a t can help us?

C: No, well , t h e a i rp lanes t h a t a r e t h e r e i n t h e Cessna hangar.

1: They a r e h i s ?

C: ' ~ h e y a r e h i s , t h e nos. XAKEY and t h e o the r is XAKOO.

1: What o ther a i rp l ane does he have?

C : Those a r e t h e only ones 1 know, sir.

1: You know then? The l a s t time you saw them?

C: 1 have seen it one t i m e when 1 was i n t h e a i r p o r t , 1 went by t h e r e bu t 1 vas i n a car .

1: Who t o l d you t h a t was i t ?

C: I t t s because he was i n t h e Grand Marquis.

1: Eut how can you say it wzs l i g u e l , if you dont t k;iow hin?

C: Ee vas s i t t i n g , and i n t a g r e p r t s of people vho 6escribed him from t h e üni ted S t a t e s , and t h + t i s t h e ce sc r ip t ion they ~ i v e .

1s t h i s Miguel Gallardo?

C : Y ~ s , l e t ne see , t h a t l s him, yes Chuy Alvarez, he s+ys he has seen him, sir.

1: If we catch Chuy Alvarez and he says nothing, wetre going t o wipe you off t h e map, Cabron.

C: Y e s sir, yes sir.

1: What problems does t h i s man have i n t h e United S t a t e s?

C: Chuy Alvarez?

I: N o , t h a t Mr. Gallardo

C: No, r i g h t now t h e r e is no order of a r r e s t , sir.

1: What is h i s passport , no?

C: That you w i l l have t o look i n t h e computer fo r , sir.

1: Ah, and youl re going t o t e11 m e he who you're looking f o r and youlve never seen t h e computer.

C: S i r , look, t h e r e i s a computer i n t h e Visa sect ion.

1: You d o n l t have a photo of him?

C: Of Miguel Angel?

1: Y e s .

C: Yes, t h e r e is one i n t h e o f f i ce , sir.

1: Can you give it t o me?

C: F o r g u r e , sir.

1: Who gave it t o you?

C: That cane when they seized sone cocaine i n Tijuana i n 1 9 7 6 , it is an o ld photo, t h e San Diego o f f i c e Cave it t o us; t h e cne who moves heroin i s Juan Jose Quintero, they say he a l s o noves marijuana, bu t a s 1 szy, sir, t h e r e i s no order f o r h i s a r r e s t , under t h e laws the re , here a l so , weld have t o catch h i n with sonething.

1: Eere?

1: Can you e x t r a d i t e him?

C: Right now, t h e r e i s no accord with Mexico, sir, t h e r e i s no accord t o t ake h in f ron here t o there .

1: Sut if you have t h i s in fomat ion , why dont t you give it t o t h e Federal J u d i c i a l police?

C: I t has been passed, sir, 1 say r emede r 1 t o l d you t h a t Comandante Fisher was coordinating t h a t , a l 1 t h a t 1 am t e l l i n g you Comandante Fisher , a t t h a t time, was- under c rders of Comandante Lorrobaquio, t h e one s e n t e spec i a l l y from Mexico f o r t h a t i n v e s t i g a t i o n

1: And who has those tapes?

They are in Mexico.

Who has them?

Lorrobaquiofs office.

You donft have anything?

No, sir, they are some tapes that , . . His telephone, you dontt have the address?

No, 1 te11 you it is in the Hotel Americas.

I ask you one thing, please donlt kill me.

You donst see anything else,

The only time 1 saw him was at the airport. He was in a car, that car.

Look, tell us al1 the problems there are against him. Al Chile.

Right now DEA considers that, that is the most important investigotion there is. They 2re putting a lot of effort, fron Washington there is pressure. They hzve chastised us, hezvy, by teleshone, because accorciing to thes ve are giving thein infomation is there is no inforza~tion to give. Loo'x, you, they caught ne unzmed, here every pinche (fucking) checksoint thot stops ne takes ny W n , 1 an tired of writing notes to the chief zs to why they took my pistol, now 1 donst cerry pns. Do you think thilt 1 an coing to follow an amed person.

1 clonft think SO, te11 me concretely what you ha-~e against each one over each person that we asked about.

Are you firn on what i;elre going to ask you?

Take of£ the binding so 1 czn rub my ribs 1 czntt nove,

Where &oes it hurt you?

The right side.

Here?

He has never given us infomation about Miguel Angel. I assure you, but we have talked because we try, the head of the office had a t a l k with Comandante Spindola to see if he wanted to cooperate, and Comandante Cpindola

didnlt too, he said he didnt t want problems, that he was afraid of and respected Miguel.

1: Goon.

C: Espindola has a problem with some land, he was telling me, with a License or Engineer Barba, there is no need to tie me.

1: Yes, yes, it's for security, cooperate, loco, theysre going to chingar (screw) us.

1: Wesre going to put them loose.

C: Donst mistreat me anymore.

1: We arenlt going to mistreat you anymore, continue.

C: Yes, sir.

1: Te11 us the case of Miguel.

C: Look, 1 donlt know where he lives, we have a secretary who lives near there, but she doesnlt have anything to do with them.

S: Este es otro boleto. ( ~ h i s is rnother ticket.)

C: Otro pinche rollo, hay cabro", mequemo. (Another fuckin lie, asshole, you burned me.)

1: Continue.

C: Lives in a house exactly 1 dontt know, sir, but she lives near soze apartments, where, acccrding to her, lives Hipo1 Angel, she says it is Mipel Angel, because you hear some heavy gunfire, rnd there nezrby lives Garcia- Paniagua, the son, no, no, exactly 1 donlt know where he lives, I1ve never been in that house.

S: Go on, cjo on, or S1ll tie the knot.

C: NB, no, no.

C : Roger Xnapp told me that was the house.

I: What Roger?

c: Roger -apP-

1: Yes.

That house is, when one enters Cuahtemoc from the Hyatt, you turn on the first street to the right, there is a place where they se22 tacos, or something, you turn to the right, and you go to where the street makes a triangle, there is a very large house with bardas; they told me thatls it.

Go on.

1 don't know that house, where 1 have seen Miguel Angel's cars are the Suites Real and the Hotel Las Americas.

What car is it?

It is a yellow Grand Marquis, '83, '84, 1 imagine it is ' 8 4 , the plates, the numbers are 026, it is H something 0.

Go on with his house, the one you were talking about.

Look, 1 was going to say . . . Look, loco, give up the addresses, there is no problen, it's understandable you are asking for your security, you asking for yours in one more hour we are coing to bring you a doctor, you keep working and theress no probles.

Turn ne loose, please.

Look, loco, if the comandante enters, he's cjoing to svorlc on us.

1 te11 you in this triangle there are sone nonunents, 1 hzve never seen the czr there, that is what the secreta,y says . - wnat is the secretaryts nane? Nothing will happen to her.

She only Caes the reports, her name is Susana, Susana lees . . . remeaiber, Conanoante. she is married to a guy from there, is American but she has been here for soae time. Her maiden name is Garcia, let me remember and donst mistreat me, please.

No, man, if we're talking how are we going to mistreat you l

Susy, Susana Elena Garcia, it begins with a large "Ew. Loak, remember these things, they going tu check tomarrow. Yousre not going to be here one day, it

could be you going to be 3 or 4 days here.

No, Comandante.

If you continue cooperating, in a little while we are going to bring you a doctor.

Give us, well.

No, no, 1 want to remember, put yourself in my place, look the person that 1 told you that gave us the deal in Zacatecas, 1 know him as Juan Garcia.

well he gave you Angel's house, Miguel Angel.

No, no, 1 was going to te11 you something else, you said, comandante, that 1 should te11 you everything &out Miguel Angel, right? .

Yes, everything.

That person is an acquaintance of Miguel Angel, they were raised together.

Juan Garcia has a nicknane, he has killei. several people there in Culiacan. He plzyed basketball vith Miguel Angel.

Juan Garcia?

Yes, thatls what 1 know hin as.

Eow is that person?

Ee is a person about 37 or 40 yezrs old, taller than me, he measures about . . . . Fik;ere does he live?

It 5s he who lives in McAllen right no i , comandante.

He is fron Culiacan?

He was born in Culiacan, sir.

And the house of that Mr. Felix-Gallardo, who gave it to you?

C: The one at the triangle?

28

1: Yes.

C: 1 learned that from Roger Knapp.

1: Who gave it to him? Remember, donlt be afraid.

C: Yes, yes, one time he followed Miguel Angel there, there was . . .

1: Look, nobody is hitting you.

C: There was an office, near where they were listening, right?

1: Yes.

C: Otorbambo, a street behind Cuahtemoc; what is the name of that street?

Waster Bambo, Otorbambo?

Netzahualcoyoth, Coyoacan? .

No, something like Waterbanibo.

Czbron, welre not from here. How are we coing to -ow the streets; donit be funny.

Wnen YOU leave the Lopez Mateos Iaterla, you take Cuahtcmoc, right, crossing.

-

Pzrallel to Cuahtenoc, Moctezuna, Cuahtezioc, which is the one there by the Hyitt?

Heyzahuahcuyoth, why these cpestions? lZno do you want to locate?

No, no, you dontt want me to te11 you about Mique1 Angel?

You are the one who-is going to znsver.

Yes, sir, and 1 kncw that, one time Agent Roger Knapp, he was passing by there with Mike Acuna, the cne I told you was from Mexico and was in charge of the investigation there; they were passing by there, ak that time Miguel Angel %i¿is arriving, I believe with two escorts, and they followed them and stopped with their pistols in their hands and identified them. They told them, according to Mr. Knapp, that at that corner there was an office that Miguel Angel went to frequently 1

know how to find the place, but that they had offices there. Later, Comandante Fisher told us they had moved from there.

And how did they know?

Sir, could 1 move around a little, make myself more comf ortable

Get comfortable, you can move, there is no problem.

At work, yes sir; as 1 told you, they put him in charge of the investigation of Miguel Angel, El Otor Mexico, he was, he had orders directly from the Director of the Judicial Police. He reported directly to Lorrobanquio, directly with the Director, about the deal with Miguel Angel, about what was going on here in Guadalajara. The details he wanted he gave to Roger. Roger made the reports and well, each report that was made in the of f ice we read, that's why I 1 m telling you about that house.

How much tine did this Fisher have after Miguel Angel?

How is that?

Since when?

Let ne explhin how that óeal was. In Mexico Lorrobzpio hooked up on a telephone, of a guy who has a rznch in Verzcruz, right. Now let ne renenber, I1n going to tell you everything, conandante.

No problem. You go on.

A nzn who has a ranch with an airstrip in Veracruz.