edith dobie interview transcript

Milo Ryan oral histories of retired University of Washington faculty

Transcript - Edith Dobie Interview

Accession No: 75-026

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INTERVIEW WITH EDITH DOBIE

INTERVIEWED BY MILO RYAN

26 March 1970

TRANSCRIBED BY FRANCES K. GREENE, Volunteer from U.W. Retirement Association, 27 July 1981

RYAN: We are interviewing Professor Emeritus Edith Dobie, r etired from

the Departmen t of History at the University of Washington in 1957.

It is Miss Dobie ' s intention that the comments made on t his in t er-

view are being made off the record and are not intended for

publication in any way. Is that your intention, Miss Dobie?

DOBIE: That ' s my intention decidedly. [chuckle]

RYAN: Good. Well, let ' s get s ome facts about your career . We ' ve already

said you were retired in 1957 . Row l ong did you teach at the

University?

DOB!E: Thirty years.

RYAN: Thirty years . You came in 1927, then .

DOBIE : Actually ' 26, I came for the Summer Quarter i n 1926. so I guess

probably I was ..• 31 years.

RYAN: You really haven't retired, have you? I understand that you're

j ust as busy now as you were when you were on the

DOBIE : Oh, yes I am. [chuckle]

RYAN: What have you been doing?

DOBIE: I've been doing some writing. I had a book in mi nd, in fact I had

started to work on it when I retired. And that had to do with the

Colony of Malta which contrary to most colonies at that time was

asking Britain to make a closer relation i nstead of what tbey had

previously asked--that was, . be given complete self government,

INTERVIEW WITH EDITH DOBIE -2-

RYAN:

so that Britain would only be the sovereign but not .. any control.

Unlike Rhodesia and Nigeria and other colonies?

DOBIE: Yes. And, of course, it was a very .. it proved to be a very

complicated situation. And I had been interested in it for some

time. Then I got a Fulbright in '53, and I spent a good part of the

year there, And then I saw a different side of the problem . And

so I set out with the idea that they were going at that time--they

were going to do what so many of the smaller colonies had not done.

they were going to modify the parliamentary government which every

colony wanted and which no colony understood. Britain learned

parliamentary government over a period of several hundred years,

and here are these little colonies . . start out and they have

no background for it . And I thought that t hese people would be

able to modify the institutions of parliamentary government by

their own mores. And that they would be the first successful one,

but .. and so that was to be my subject--the evolution of true

parliamentary government in Malta. But I soon found what the

problem, as it shaped itself up, was ... and I also had in mind

as a subject the developmeot of party government, which of course

is absolutely essential to parliamentary government. And so I set

out to work on that thing, but as my ... I worked on my material

and I bad to get ... it was a difficult thing because all I could

get to use was newspapers •... Now, the early newspapers were all

in Italian, so I took a course of Italian here for two quarters so

I was able to read the very early ones. And from then on I really

depended largely on the newspapers and the meetings of the legis-

lature and the political meetings as they came. So it meant that

I [chuckling] had a million or more notes--all pretty short ones,

I NTERVIEW WITH EDITH DOBIE -J-

and the problem began to or ganize and make it take form. Well,

the form it finally took was not the evolution of parliamentary

government but Malta ' s road t o freedom, you see, because it had a

very serious obstacl e to start with, and that ' s what made so much

of the difficulty . Yo u see, Malta had been t aken over in 1798--

the Engl ish had helped the Maltese dr ive the Fr ench out and then

the Maltese asked Britain to take them over, which they

Britain did. And then they realized how valuable it was. You see,

here it was just half way across the Mediterranean, and it was the

most i mportant spot in the lifeline of the Empire . So, you see,

eve-ry session of sel f-rule had to take i nto account t he fact that

Britain was absolutely dependent on the holding of Malta as a

for tress. And they built it up to an i mpregnable for tress--thexe

is no doubt about it , And of course it meant t hat as they developed

their naval power, they built a dockyard there--a dockyard came to

really f urnish the ernployment for about 70% of the population.

Now ther e were various commissions of investigation, and one in

1912 warned them that they were making Malta absolutely dependent

on the abilicy to serve Britain's military needs; and some provision

should be made for building up another base. Well, that was 1912--

you know the situation in Europe then--and Britain's situation

particularly with the growing threat , and nothing was done about it.

And the r esul t was , of course, ;it became mor e and more import ant;

and of course the money f l owed in there for wages and they prospered

fairly well . Of course when Brit ain took it over, the cond i t ion of

the people was absolutley • .. well , it was almost impossible-- they ...

were peasants and they lived in just complete miser y. Of course,

{ ' I

INTERVIEW WITH EDITH DOB1E -4-

the Order of St. John .. . they were tyrants, and they had never

done anything for the people. So in the course of the years they

had built up a type of prosperity . . compared to any other

Mediterranean there •.. they were prosperous , but of course they

had to balance a large group of highly skilled workers in the dock-

yards. And then during World War I .. . World War II ... as you

know, t hey h eld out. They had, I ' ve forgotten, how many thousand

bombings in just one day, but they were very fortunate in that .

island were a great series of caves, and they had been used for

storage by the (k)nights •

refuge. But it was a terrific

• so the population as a whole found

... it was a terrific siege, and

it lasted well, from the t:Lme Italy went i n, I think, until about

1943; and of course the airmen who came there found it a place to

serve as they, perhaps , could serve no place else. And of course it

was a great shock when Italy opened up on them, and that ended a

desire on the part of some people to have closer relations with

Italy ••. but that ended the first time .. the bonilis dropped.

And of course then the agitation for more self-government grew

stronger , and in '43 Britain promised that as soon as it was

possible that arrangements would be made for the utmost degree of

self-government . And so there is a long series of agitations and

when the peace came, Britain making various __ sessions; but in the

meantime, you see, India had got self-government with the privilege

of leaving the Empire or remaining a Dominion. But, you see, they

couldn ' t let Malta have that--the precedent was established. ;you a

could no longer set them up as, say , as/dominion beca_use tha,t gave


RYAN:

them by precedent the privilege of withdrawing entirely. Well,

Britain couldn ' t , .• she couldn't take that chance, and the

United States wouldn't let her take that chance because at that

time she was in NATO. . So, you see that the situation became

pretty tense, •. but progress was being made until ' 57, and the

bull fell . Britain changed her defense system .

Let 1s talk a minute about your book .. about this. Now what is

the status of the book at the present time?

DOBIE : Oh, it's published .•. published in '67.

RYAN: ' 67?

DOBIE: Um •

RYAN: And under that title?

DOBIE: MAR'I'YRS .. MALTA 'S

RYAN : MALTA'S ROAD TO FREEDOM

DOBIE: Yes, I think so . . ..

RYAN: Who was the publisher?

• • Isn ' t that funny!

?

DOBIE: Oklahoma Press ... University of Oklahoma.

RYAN: What other books have you published?

I think . . .

DOBIE: Well, before that Stanford had published my dissertation •.• that

was "Political Career of Stephen Mallory White. 11 You see, that ' s

where my interes t had come to be in party government.

RYAN: How did you happen to get interested in Malta? From the position

of Seattle this seems very remo t e . . .

DOBIE: Well, because of my study; you see I began offering courses in the

British Empire here about .•. oh , I must have offered the first

the beginning courses about 1936, some thing like that, And so of

course my study of the Empire • . • I could see what was going on


RYAN:

in all these different colonies, and I became very much interested

in Malta because of the type of people who lived there. The very old

civilization--and also I felt that Britain was holding them up a

little, at first . But, you see , as soon as I went over there in '53

I saw what was Britain ' s problem ... that as long as they were

needed as a base in the Empire defense, Britain couldn ' t just say

go in peace. But, of course, in the meantime those who wanted it

differed; and there was tremendous difficulty among the different

factions and parties developed very slowly. The only true party

really was the Labor Party~ and it got started abou t ' 27. The others

were factions.

Well, now you've accounted for your study in Malta, and I am

under the impression, because I have seen you at work at the library

and so on, that you ' re still very busy in research.

DOB It: yes.

RYAN : What are you doing, then, as of 1970?

DOBIE: .. . Oh, well, in the course of my study of the Empit·e I got very

much interested in a colonial secretary, who was Charles Grant whose

father was a great man in the East India Company. Now Charles Grant

had many important positions. He was in several cabinets, among

them one was .. . he. was Chief Secretary of Ireland during a

very difficult period 1818 to 121 and did really a remarkable job.

And t hen later he held other assistant. , , he was president of

the Board of Trade and then he became the top of the Board of Trade.

Then he became the head of the Indian government in Britain. and

then he became Colonial Secretary, and he had a rather difficult.


RYAN:

DOBIE:

RYAN:

DOBIE:

• but the books show the very successful period . Actually,

his whole thesis was about what the thesis of the Br;l..tish Government

became after 1914 when they became much concerned about the rights

of self-government for all of the colonies. But he differed, not so

much differed, but his cabinet was in the very difficult position

and there was a radical group that broke with the Whigs. And the

radical group could throw them out almost any time. So actually

from the time he went in to the Cabinet in ' 35 to ' 39, all the

Cabinet was concerned about and Melbourne l-las the head of it--all

they were concerned about was staying in office. So t:hey would

back the policy of the Colonial Secretary. They would back the

policy of the President of the Board of Trade or \<that-not, only

as it kept the radicals quiet, Because if the radicals got too

bad they could throw hitn out, and he ran into that tangle ; and

the result was he resigned. Now, of course, the books always say

that he was thrown out. Well, he resigned because they had made

his position impossible, and of course as I say, there were many

difficult things, and among them was a very difficult problem in

Canada, and Lord Durham and the Cabinet, you know, finally turned

against Durham, though he did exactly what t he Secretary had told

him to do . [chuckles] And so out of it, you see, Russell and the

people who were concerned. . they just made Grant who had become

Lord Glenelt made it very diffic~lt £or him. --------Are you finding adequate materials here at the University Library,

or . . . ?

Well, I have

Are you able to use this as a reason for some travel?

When I was in England last, two years ago, I did all the manuscript


,,...,., , ;, materials . I made a list of all the members of the Cabinets tha t

Glenelt had been in. And that was quite a long list. Then I took

that list to the Manuscripts Room in the British Museum, and I went

through all of the correspondence of any one of those men that is

there. Now in some ways that's the most valuable part of my 111aterial,

but I still have ... . and then I came back here; and then I worked

on quite a lot of the material this last year within the part of

parliamentary debates because, you see, he was a member of

Parliament from about 1813 on when his father came back from India a

very rich man•, and . . • he was one of t he first, if not the only one,

who had the auditors go over his books to show that he had made it

honestly. You know those nabobs that came back, they were rolling

in money, but they got it dishonestly . And so among other things

his father brought hi m and his brother estat es and 1t1ade them eligible

and then they were given • . you see this is before '32, and

Charles was given a seat in 1813. So you see he would have been in

speaking . in Parliament and on different subj ecls;and I found

out that was his position, you see, and what did he say in Ireland

or in the Parliament about Ireland because the chief secretary had

to be in England half the year, and in the Parliament he took up

everything that the government wanted done with regard to Ireland

which was a very, very tough time. And so you see, I ' ve had this

whole year ... I've just worked like mad1 to read all of that;

and t hen 1 have read a l ot of memoirs that have r eferences to hi m

which we have, and then they borrow some books for me. So I' ve got

everything that I can get here . Now what I'm going to do in England

TNTERVIEW WITH EDITH DOBIE - 9-

RYAN:

is to read the official correspondence. You see, now there's to be

a good deal ..• t he official correspondence when he was President

of the Board of Trade; the official correspondence when he was

Irish Secretary; and the official corres pondence when he was Head

of the India Board. And that is a very tough one to find the

insight to, because he was the one who pushed getting, you know,

dissolving the East India Company. And of course, they had to be

bought off naturally. And that was a very difficult problem, and I

think he made a lot of enemies there . But I haven't seen .. , I

have seen a little of the private correspondence between him and

some of t he leaders of the East India Company . But I haven't seen

the offical correspondence at all .

The thing that interests me very much in listening to your story,

Miss Dobie, i nvolves~ rather than the story. We hear today of

constant rationalization in university life around the question of

r esearch versus teaching. There seems to be a feeling in many

quarters that this must be polarized--a person is either a researcher

or a teacher. You come from an era in which a person was both

without any compulsion.

DOBIE: If anything, though my while I was i n university I felt was

paid to teach. And my idea of teaching is direc t the study of the

students. Consequently I never gave what you would call a lecture

course. What I did was to direct their study . My assignments

were to their reading, !ind of course, then that gave me time .

for i nstance i f I was doing lower division . . I did say, from 300

to 1500 and from 1500 to the present. Now we had good textbooks,


RYAN:

DOBIE:

and there was good supplementary reading. Now, every Monday I

discussed what we were going to do that week and gave out the

assignments. Then that left me free to discuss, as I called it

rather than lecturing, .•. discuss particular problems,

especially the church which is the whole basis and the development

of the papacy. And so my problems supplemented their reading. It

also gave me time to work on the development of art in architecture.

Now one of the first things I did, clear back when I came here in '26

--I went down and talked with Mr. Gould whether I could use their

material . "Why," he said, "we're so delighted to have somebody who

wants it," and so.

Mr. Gould was . •

He was head of Architecture

RYAN: Head of Architecture.

DOBIE : Carl Gould .•. And the result was that I was able in the class,

you see, to discuss the development of architecture . [chuckling]

I had them running around the city finding the buildings that were

built in certain styles. Development of architecture--the develop-

ment of art ...• now I ' ve made it very clear to them I was no.

I had no ability for appreciation and I would get some of

the Art people sometimes to talk on that. But W'hat I am interested

in is how the art expresses history. Because architecture is history

in stone--there's no question about that, And so you see, as they

worked through the basics stuff . • . then I was able to do this,

and I was also able to take up specifically the development of

thought, so tbat when you got to the American Revolution we know


how we got there, as a part of European history [amusement in voice]

So I was always a teacher primarily .

RYAN: Did you have any specific feeling against the lecture method?

DOBIE: I came to have quite a feeling against it so that's why I don't

want to be quoted. Because there developed in our department, and

I think it ' s true everywhere, there developed a feel i ng that study

meant getting ready for an examination, and getting ready for an

examination was memorizing your lecture notes. And I made it very

clear that no examina t ion was based on my lecture notes. It was

based on their reading, and I never would allow, and I was not too

popular .. , and it's very strange ..•• in my later period, if

I got history students who had decided to take their History 1

late because they got interested in history , they were the ones who

resented the fact that my examinations were based on their work on

their reading and not on my l ectures . And you see, a lot of these

students going around saying, "well, all you have to do is

regurgitate." But that ' s what they want, and so I felt as the years

went by that we were making a terrible mistake, because I remember

a student saying to me, one boy especially, he said , "You know, I , (

don ' t understand, he said, "I get a B." And he said it was a very

good!_. And he said, "You know I have had two history courses, and

I worked like a dog doing all the reading they suggestedx and I

never got above a C. And I sat next to two girls in both those

courses, and I said to them, ' How is it that you always get As or

A+?' And they said, 'Three days befor e the examination we get out

INTERVIEW WITH EDITH DOBIE - 12-

RYAN:

DOBIE:

RYAN:

DOBIE:

RYAN:

our notebooks and we practically learn them word for word . '" Now,

you know there's something wrong there .

They're not learning . ..

That ' s why I don't want to be quoted.

They're not learning history th;J..s way; they're learning their notes.

Yes ! And you see, another thing that made me very popular with

some good students--I have found out since I stopped teaching-- is

that t never gave a question that could be answered by a narrative.

It always had to be an exposition with evidence on their conclusions.

If I would say "what was the

policy with reference to the East"

give the factors in Charlemagne I s

... well then they listed

those factors and then they developed them with evidence. And, of

course, as one student told me, he said, "You'll never know what I

did in my course--! had to write a paper and I wrote it the way you

told us to write it," and he said, "I was the only one in the course

that had even a decent paper, and I had the top paper," Well, it's

because they stopped memorizing history and began to think about

it. Now of course, you don't ... you're not very popular

How many students could you accommodate in a class teaching your way?

Did this method lend itself to a very large. , , group •.

[interruptions ... ]

DOBIE: When we were first organized, you see, it developed that more than

I think at one time three of us were doing the introductory

course, or maybe four. I would have as many as 125. Because, you see,

that gave me some chance for them to raise questions, and I asked

them to tell meJafter they had done a period and I was building i n

INTERVIEW WITH EDITa DOBIE -13-

the background1 the specific things to tell me what you want me to

lecture on. They called it lecture, but it was really much more

informal in a way than a lecture. Though I was used to that because

I got drawn into meetings that we had during the War--meetings of

clubs and all kinds of things which were called . . • what did

they call them? •.• . but actually what they were were discussion

groups , and I . • so you see I was quite accustomed to bringing

people out and keepin g a discussion going . Now I couldn ' t have as

much discussion in our c l asses because it really wasn't necessary.

It was more important of what I was doing i n my • , £or instance

when I was talking about, we 111 say> the papacy at a certain period

well, I was constantly referring to some item in French

history or English history or what-not which I would ask them.

And then that brought them into why tt1e Pope was developing his

policy the way he did. So I ... but I always felt, and of course

it meant that I never gave the course the same way because every

year I learned better how t o organize it and so I really wore

myself out because I was keeping up with research I was working on

history of the British Empire after . or • . .. along with

Malta and that. And I was always doing articles. Every year I

would do at least one article on some part of the Empire and get

it published in one of these so-called schol arly magazines. Well,

that took time.

RYAN: Yes ...

DOBIE: So I worked too hard and dcn::ing and after tne War, I did what I

wish I hadn't done . [voice changes emotionally] I was called upon

INTERVIEW WITH EDITH DOBIE - 14-

RYAN :

for discussions for lectures, public speaking and got word from t he

University that we were to accept those ...

I remember that time .

DOBIE: Well, that didn I t phase me. I made a rule finally . . . t here was

s uch a call for i t . . . I made a rule t hat I ,~ould not talk to a

club unless they were already engaged i n some study of public

affairs. I was not going to fit in between the trained bears and

the local sol oist . I was going to fol l ow up what they had been

doing. And eventually , and of course , the University wouid have

had a fit if they knew tha t, • .. I charged them for it. I had

to . It didn ' t cut down the numbers . [laughing] . • They wouldn't

RYAN:

'

DOBIE:

RYAN:

. it just . I . well , if I had it to do over again,

I wouldn ' t do it.

Your i deas concerning the l ecture method continue t o interest me.

. . . Now, your decision t o teach ano ther way was in a way , in a

sense, I should imagine, a personal reaction t o experience with

the l ecture method, because the lecture method is a very old

method of t eaching, isn't it?

Well, it's not so old. Yo u know I was graduated in 1914 . .•

From where?

DOBIE : From Syracuse. And we were s till. .. some of the courses were

still s tudy courses. And . . but . . . the head of the department

RYAN:

he emphasized a l ecture.

of t he ... they finally

which was a bad thi ng.

And in fact , the student s got hold

they mimeographed his lectures

Of course, we now have the system here on campus where a student

can go and buy his l ecture notes .

INTERVIEW W1TH EDITH DOBIE -15-

DOBIE: Well, of course, to me that shows you what's happening, All they're

doing is learning •.. they're learning, they're not studying . You

don't have to study, and I suspect . I don't know . but I

suspect that a great many lectures are based on . . I mean,

examinations are based on those lectures. They are using their

memories, and they are not thinking. [chuckles ] I had a letter from

somebody in Sociology, a student there, ... her teacher there told

her to complain to her teachers that things weren 't going right, so

she wrote to complain about me. I was just interested in one thing .

. . . "all you ever say is what do you think." That was her idea of

what was wrong with my teaching [more chuckles ] • • • [ha-ha-ha)

Well, it's f unny I've thought about it more lately because

I ' ve been amazed at the former students who speak to me as I meet

them on the street or something and say, "Oh, you know, that course

. . . . that really did something for me. 11 So I , . . when I first

finished I had a feeling I had been very foolish to work so hard

at trying to get students to study; yet, maybe if I had just

lectured, you know ... and I didn't have very large classes in

my upper division .• • I would have filled my upper division

classes if I had made a lecture course, because I can lecture .

That was the reason I was in such demand because I could really

hold an audience . And my father was a great speaker, but I thought

then wasn ' t I foolish, ' cause I could have worked up beau ti fully

interesting lectures , and my upper division cl asses would be filled

to the brim; but now I think it was probably worth the trouble .


RYAN: Do you have any particular individual students whom you especially

remember? Who among your students, for example, have become scholars?

DOBIE : It ' s hard to know whether they have become scholars because of me .

RYAN:

I wouldn't like to say, because they got inspiration from other

people; but I do have quite a lot of students that 1 hear from

occasionally. And, as I sa.y, when I meet them . . • I remember

meeting a girl, and she said, "Do you know, I've been to Europe

and you made that trip." Well, of course, the reason was we had

studied the architecture and the art and something beside the names

of the rulers. I should say that . • • in between

Something besides the battles?

DOBIE : Yes . And of course that ' s made me a little unpopular because I

urged them not to memorize dates. I urged them to place something

in a quarter of the century and place it with something else that

happened. Sometimes I would have them make a chart and, you see,

they would put here the churches, t here this, and that; and if it

was tn European history we would have a column for the United States.

And then we would take a period of 50 years of what was happening

here at the same time, Well, they didn ' t have to do that, but a

great many of them did; and they got in the habit of relating

things and knowing what . having some feeling about when we

were in the American Revolu tion what was happening in Europe at the

same time,

RYAN: Yes . . . .

DOBIE: Of course, since then I, beside doing this history of the British

Empire which was very favorably received when it was being worked

INTERVIEW WI!H EDITH DOBIE -17-

• I

out, and I worked awf ully hard on it, and it was accepted ; and the

last minut e they telephoned me they decided not to •.• not only

been accep'ted but their editor had gone over with it to me and s he

said, "You know this is the kind of thing I hate to take the money

for ." She said, "You have a manuscript t hat is right. ' ' But I had

( a telephone call that they had decided not to publish it. Well, the

point was that I found out aft erwards • •. the editor was scared

t o death. He didn ' t know the publishing field and he had been there

only a short time, and t he man who got me to write i t, ' cause I

wrote because I was asked to , had l e f t the fir m because they had

not done fairly by him. So , anyway, they paid me more •.. Oh,

I went righ t to them, and I said, "You know , I ' m intelligent, and

I know right where I stand . " And they pa:id me more than I would

have made on royalties and told me I could do anyt hing I wanted

with the . . • • \Jhich I have never done.

RYAN : It's nice to know s omebody wins in a case like t hat.

DOBIE : Yes .

RYAN: You were at the Univer s ity for about 30 years .

DOBIE: Yes , 31 now , 1 think.

RYAN: One of the t h i ngs that I have noticed abou t university l ife i s that

one ' s administrators change very frequently. l>Tho were the Heads of

History in your t i me?

DOBIE: Oh, yes.

Mr . Meany was the Head when I first went there, and a very

unfortuna t e Head , as you know . He was . , • . he had become an image

or what-not before he died , but , • . and you see , they were trying

/

I


to

RYAN: I n ' 27, he was stil l Head of History?

DOBIE: Oh, yes, • ' 26, and he lived until about ' 30 , I think. And you

the administration were trying to ease him out because )mow . •

really, he was just giving lectures that . . . and giving

everybody l?_ ' s or what-have you, you know. He. and he coulan•t

.... he di dn't run the Department. You j ust had to find out for

yourself wha t you could do . And they were planning to ease him out.

In fact, they brought a man here with the idea, and this man was

foolish enough t o indicate. . t hey brought a new man here .

he was to be the next Head . And Meany fo und it out. [Whispers . . ]

And oh, my gosh . •• [louder ] . . he just raised the roof,

Well, [chuckles] he died s uddenly . You know there was a pries t here ,

and he was to be • .• he us ed to tal k wi th Louie DeVrie

I' '

---------------who said he was a non-believer . I don I t lcnow whether

I think he was trying to get _H_e_n_r.,_..y_L_u.,__p_i_s_c_h ____________ _

who finally went ;·into t he bosom of the church . I know . . .

they used to have terrible argumen ts out in the hall, and -we al l

stood around and l i stened to ' em. And there was a young priest

t he r e , but you know, the day that . after Meany died, and he

died suddenly i n his office, this priest came over, and he said t o

.:::L..;;o.;;;u.;;;i ..;;e....;;.D..;;e..;.V.;;.r.;;;i.;;;e _ ________ 1 "Now do you believe in God? [Laughter ... )

Well, then after him , . • Mac . McMahon, ... there was no

question, and so he took over . The trouble with McMahon was he had

been a criticizer too long. He had nothing butnegative things ; and


RYAN :

then he retired, and we got Stull Holt, a very good choice, but how

we worked to get him. I tell you we just Oh, I never want to

go through that again. And then when Stull was ready to retire, t hen

we chose ... and the committee chose, because we were united.

Sol Katz, another excellent man. And then it was decided, 1 think,

to make it just so many years, and after Mr. Katz came ..

Mr . Burke?

DOBIE: Yes. And this other man, a very good man who came to us from

Stanford. So we ' ve been a pretty for tunate department in recent

years; there ' s no question about it.

RYAN: And you've had some pretty great scholars in History .

DOBIE: Oh, yes • .. very good, very good. Mr. Holt .. . unfortuantely,

1 think, .Mr. Holt was not very much interested in undergraduate

teaching, but he built up our graduate ~~?,ff until it was tops, ,,

RYAN:

there ' s no question. He di d a wonderful job, and Max Savelle, who

just retired--wonderful. And of course G;i.ovanni ________ _

whose . • . well, I . . the first time I heard Giovanni, I said,

11There isn't anybody in this world that can handle the English

language as he does . 11 And you know I ' ve always heard t hat the one

who s peaks the most beautiful English is always a cultivated

Irishman. And he has a wonderful mind. Oh my, there's no question

about it. So we've been very fortunate, and we ' ve got some good

men now . I'm afraid we ' ve got one blank . we had one two years

ago but I have a feeling, and I don't ask any questions. But

I have a feeling that one of t hese people who is so sympathetic

with the rambunctious students, I think, is the younger man in our

department . But I don't know who he is; I never ask.

Are you in close contact with the Department?


DOBIE: Yes , quite. But not as close as I formerly was

RYAN:

DOBIE:

RYAN:

That little interruption was noise from ..

No, just because I .. it just happens that when I go for my mail

the Department doesn't seem to collect in one of the secretary ' s

offices the way they used to, and I used to see a lot; but I have

occasion to and, of course, I, as I say, I don ' t ask questions. !my-

thing that i s said to me why that's all right, but I don ' t ask

questions, especially in these last two years. I might t ell you

that in between rny . after I got the . • . or even while :i: was

doing the Malta book and t he final publication ... it nearly

knocked me over ' cause I did my own i ndex ... Never do an index!

Oh, that ' s awful.

D081~: And never let anyone else do it ! They never do ' em r ight , you know.

Though I did over a chapter which I felt was my best contribution. I

did a chapter from the historiography of the B~itish Empire which

is done by a Yale man and came out in the Duke University Press about

1969 or something like that, and I did the chapter on the

Mediterranean, the Empire in the Mediterranean. And I felt very much

pleased that I was asked to do that chapter . I suppose maybe I was

the only one who knew much about it, but I was muc h pleased to get

that; and they were very generous, so that I was able to give s ome

of my colleagues copies because they had good material on , for

instance , on Ireland when it was part of the Empire which I was gl ad

I could give Giovanni one, and so it I s I was much pleased w:U:h

that. I think . .. and t he editor , I think is an unusual man . I

was hoping that he might come here some time, but at the moment we

don 't have anybody in the Commonwealth. We haven't had it for two

years; I didn't realize that.


RYAN: As you come 'to campus almost every day to ~he library, you

undoubtedly notice a great many changes that have come over, not

only over the University but over universi ty life. As we make this

recording it is March 1970. The University has just come through a

week or so of great turmoil in riots by students and outsiders aimed

at the University's athletic policy, Do you recall in your caree~

here any comparable period of turmoil ... student turmoil

comparable in kind or in degree?

DOBIE, No way comparable. I can't even think of any organized protest

about anything.

RYAN: Was there not, prior to World War II?

DOBIE: No, there wasn ' t at all. All I remember about World War II . . .

RYAN:

DOBIE:

RYAN:

I think of the Oxford oath in that period.

Yah, , no, there wasn't.

War II in that connection.

But one thing I remember about World

. I had a very big c l ass. And it was

in a room where the air was bad, and we had the windows open when

we came in, and they adjusted them. And one time 1 stopped, and I

could see a lot of people were sort of scrunching around, and I

said, "You don ' t have to be in a draft . Close the window. 11 And

then I repeated it, and I said, "Close the window; you don ' t have

to be in a draft . 11 And this one man, that great big ------said, "That's what y..2..u think!" [laughter by both] So you see ,

when there was so much protest about the draft, there wasn't any-

thing ugly at all about it. It was just one of those things.

I remember very clearly , and I'm s ure you do, too, that during

World War 11 and in the period af t er it, many social thinkers we-re

saying that we will be in a period of reaction to this war for

many decades, that we ' re in for a g-reat period of ugliness. Do you


think that what is happening is f ulfillment of tha t forecast ? Do

yo u think that wha t is happening here is inevitable given the

upheaval s that came with World War II and t he depr ession that

preceded it and the turmoil that followed it?

DOBIE: I thi nk that might have been a factor. I have a feeling that t his

reaction .. • t his whole t urmoil everywhere . was a failure for

us t o develop a. . integrity as a philosophy of life. I can ' t

quite expl ain it . Everywhere I go , and everything I read i s the

r esult of a kind of hatred against eve rybody because t hey didn ' t

get where they wanted to be, and they nevet wanted ... really

wanted to be something enough to work for it. That somewhere along

the line , our whole morale was breaking down, and we didn't know i t .

Was i t because we made things easy and didn ' t demand that people

work? •.. Why is it, for instance, in my time and after I came

here up until World War I . . I I there were hundreds of studen ts

who tvere working their heads off to ge t to s t ay in the Univer sity?

Never expec t ed .

pocket handkerchief.

nobody never gave me so much as a cl ean

I earned every cent I go t . went through .

. . . I t never occurred to me that anybody owed i t to me . What

occurred to me was I must get more out of my class • •. my study

because I paid so much for it mysel f . I ' m just ... I haven ' t any

clear idea as to what has changed t he thinking--say of the studen t s--

that makes them so ready to fall into protest. Now you know I 've

been following the. as I ' ve been at the University every day

since . . . and tha t what I have seen is that . . . has never been

a protest against anything real on this campus . Now one of t he

7 ,t ,(. ,


RYAN :

firs t protests, you r emember was, t hat the businessmen were.

cheating them and ... now 1 blame the businessmen that they didn't

stand r igh t up and say because . .. those businessmen, if you know

anything about t he Book Store and ----------------you know they just dog eat dog. Anyone on the Avenue and especially

with these out side places. You know business on t he Avenue • . t hey

just fight fo r their l ives, they . . . What they s hould have done was

to say , ''Either you admit tha t we are doing all we can for yo u or

we ' 11 never put a l i ne of advei:- tisement in your "Daily. 11 ·I think

it would have s topped it. But that s illy talk and then these .

. . even as late as • to talk about a get-together a nd good

friends with the business people ... but business people are giving

them ever ythi ng they possibly can. It ' s j ust something wrong, and

of course they didn't thi nk of that un til they heard about what

happened to . • . in California, and t hey ' ve had one or two boys know

from California come and talk to the studen t s , you/\ tha t. They 've

been pushing t hem and pushing them to meet complaints.

Well, I understand that we have some exiles from Berkeley

brought up on the University faculty .

DOBIE : Of course ! And of course I blame the facul ty ... there's no

reason why they should ever take on anybody that ' s as absolutely no

good as one or two that we 've had. We had one in the History Depart-

ment. I don ' t care, and of course I thought Salvo -------right when he said you couldn 't dismiss a man because you didn ' t

like him; but that wasn ' t the real reason . I think those peopl e

was


that voted against him voted, voted against him because he was a

no-gooder, and when I heard him on ... TV raising his hands a nd

screaming about marij uana s houl d be free and going out here to

Cowen Park in bis bare fee t and l eading the s tudents--a History

Professor ! That ki nd of idiocy of course they had voted him

out. And so that it was wrong, and I agr eed with Sol t hat if t hat

was the reason they voted hi m out, he shouldn ' t have been voted out .

But I don't think it was t h e r eason. We l l, he. 1s got it.

according to my no t es, he ' s in a small university i n Canada.. You

know, quite a few small universities t hat are j ust topnotch for

graduat e studen ts and t hey got top people. Well, I can tell you one

thing that he isn ' t shouting ________ aroun~ about bloody

things because they don ' t like the word ' bloody', and he was using

that here all the time . You know what the English thi nk of that .

Oh , dear, I get so excit ed ; but I wish I !mew, Now of course, I

happen to be a believer ... now I don't . I 've been l ucky. I

have a Calvinist background, and • .. when I first came here I

didn ' t associ ate myself with the church because I jus.t felt that

it ' d be j us t one more thing where they ' d be trying to ge t me t o

teach and do some thi ng. But I did at some time ago I forget .

I went_ . University Presbyterian . • . I used to go t o churc h and

that, and I like the way the University Presbyterian • . . . And I

have a feel ing that somewhere along the line a lot of paren ts gave

up on t heir belief .•. I mean ... I was thinking, and I think

with most people th ey don't seem l:o realize it . . . .. Chris tianity

is more a philosophy of l ife than it i s • . . you see for mature

thi nki n g people ; than it is an escape from hell or what-have-you.

. .


And I have a feeling tha t there must have been a great number 0£

people who in the desire to get rich or get ahead or wha t -not laid

as ide t heir philosophy of Christianity. And . . . all of these

protesto:rs and this terrible, what shall I say , this terrible lawless-

ness--it mus t come f r om people who have no anc.hor anywhere, yo u know,

no anc.hor within them, no philosophy of life, no feeling that there

is any meaning .

RYAN: So, it is pathetic

DOBIE: Yes , and when you think of these boys out her e who go in and destroy

school buildings as far as they are able--just littl e boys. Of

course, I can't unders t and why the School Board doesn't hire watchmen.

I can ' t under.stand t hat . There isn't a weekend that some school isn 't

practically demolished, and yet they never have a watchman. But why

RYAN :

do they? • . . And of course this talk tha t the hippies are • that

we see here on th e Avenue . , . that they come of good families

no, t1'1.ey 1re not. But the hippies that are in this family ar e just no

goods . . .

any family

that they didn't have a ny home they di dn't have

• and the idea of talking about them as our pr oblem . •

they never. bel onged t o t he Univer s i ty Distri ct t hey never

lived here or anything .. . t hey just found that it was easy t o get

marijuana and sell drugs 1 and so fo rth and \-then the po l i ce

began t o get down on them then they . . . . rioting .. --but they

come from home don't t ell me that what we see of the rank and

file come from homes that have any real training i n mora l s or what-not,

It ' s just incredible; 1 don ' t understand it.

Miss Dobie , you ' ve lived a wonderful life, it seems to me 1 and it's

s till going on f ull steam! You mentioned earlier that you are shortly

going bacl~ to England?


DOBIE: Yes; yes , I am. And I ' m very luclcy that I keep my health because

I had . . . you know, . . . I •took an awful chance the last two

years I was in the University. I had no business giving publ i c

lectures. When I was working on research, and I never gave up on

my teaching, I had . you know, .. • you ' re not made for that;

but I 'm fort unate, a nd I ' ve recovered, and I ' ve seen the handwriting

on the wall.

RYAN: You 're on your way back for more study in England?

DOBIE: Yes, and I've made arr angements so t hat I think I'm going to be

.. I know that I'm going to be comfortable there, and I ' ve got a

good place to stay. And I'm not going to work too hard.

RYAN:

DOBIE:

RYAN:

DOBIE:

RYAN:

DOBIE:

RYAN :

DOBIE :

RY.AN:

DOBIE:

#

One of the sad things about a role of t ape is that it has a way of

saying

Well, I 've talked . I~ru, sorry . I didn ' t give you a chance to talk ...

It's not my i nterview; I've no business talking.

No~ I know, but •..

I ' ve been .fascin~tcd by the

I think the one reason that perhaps I 've talked too much is that I

have it's not being in the University. , , I don't have so

much chance to talk with.

I think . . .

. . with people that, ):ou know, that are interested in the same

things .

I think i.f we ' ve had any reaction to this we haven ' t talked enough;

I wish it could go on even longer.

But you know we ' re

II fl ti

edith dobie interview transcript

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