R. Ford - 110 1 440. MR. RUBY: Thank you. That's what I was 2 referring to. 3 4 BY MR. RUBY: 5 441. Q. Why did you destroy the financial 6 records? 7 MR. LENCZNER: He didn't destroy them. 8 He discarded them, some of his documents. 9 10 11 BY MR. RUBY: 12 442. Q. Why? 13 A. What financial records would I have? 14 443. Q. Any record of amounts received, 15 amounts expended. 16 A. I don't control that. That's the 17 Toronto Community Foundation. They have all that 18 information. 19 444. Q. So there were no records? 20 A. The Toronto Community Foundation had 21 those records. 22 445. Q. If what she has there is accurate 23 and they were discarded, you must have had them at 24 some point. 25 A. I can ask the Toronto Community

R. Ford - 111 1 Foundation to send me a statement at any time, and 2 ask them how much I gave to the schools, and ask 3 them how much I have in the account, how much has 4 been spent. 5 446. Q. At paragraph 8 of your affidavit you 6 state that the football foundation does not have any 7 administrative staff to handle these communications. 8 A. We don't have staff. 9 447. Q. But the solicitation letters you 10 sent out had your City Hall office number on them. 11 So any potential donor would have to talk to your 12 staff when they call in. 13 A. No, they don't have my City Hall 14 office. Before, many years ago, I had...the 15 integrity commissioner said I can't use the City 16 Hall letterhead with my councillor or title on it. 17 So I revised all that. So no, there is no City Hall 18 information on it. 19 448. Q. And that was because it was a breach 20 of the code of conduct, correct? 21 A. I don't remember why she told me to 22 change it, but she said, "You can't have your title. 23 You can't have City Hall information on it." I 24 revised it, sent it to her. She said that was fine. 25 The envelopes, the return address on the envelopes

R. Ford - 135 1 533. Q. Tell me if you would...take a look 2 at the report of the commissioner, and tell me 3 whether you agree with the accuracy of it. 4 MR. LENCZNER: Don't answer that 5 question. We're not taking any issue with 6 what is in these reports. We haven't, 7 therefore you can take them as all being 8 accurate. 9 534. MR. RUBY: Okay. 10 11 BY MR. RUBY: 12 535. Q. You say: 13 "...I have to declare a conflict in 14 this..." 15 Explain why that was. 16 A. I have no idea what you're referring 17 to. 18 536. Q. Page 6 of the material. 19 A. What is this on? 20 MR. LENCZNER: This is on... 21 MS. CHAISSON: The report, itself, can 22 be found at Exhibit O. 23 THE DEPONENT: Which one is this? 24 MR. LENCZNER: It doesn't tell you what 25 its subject matter is.

R. Ford - 136 1 THE DEPONENT: I don't know what we are 2 referring to and what the item is. 3 MR. LENCZNER: This is...you discuss the 4 issue on the morning radio concerning a 5 real estate transaction proposed by the 6 City for council's approval, and you 7 broadcast a proposed purchase price which 8 was supposed to be confidential. 9 THE DEPONENT: Okay. 10 MR. LENCZNER: The commissioner said 11 that you shouldn't have said that, and... 12 THE DEPONENT: Now, what was your 13 question? 14 15 BY MR. RUBY: 16 537. Q. In terms of the reasons that you 17 gave at the time, they were, in part: 18 "...I have to declare a conflict for 19 this..." 20 Do you see that portion? 21 A. Yes, probably because...again, I 22 don't remember, but probably because Anna or legal 23 told me to do it. 24 538. Q. You have no memory of the actual 25 conversation or why you would...

R. Ford - 137 1 A. Five years ago, no, I don't. 2 539. Q. They ask you what is the nature of 3 your conflict, the speaker asks, and your answer is: 4 "...My conflict is the report is about 5 Councillor Ford, and I cannot vote in 6 favour or against. That's a conflict of 7 interest..." 8 Does that reflect accurately your understanding of 9 the application of the conflict of interest rules at 10 that time? 11 A. Again, I'm not...I can't say yes or 12 no to that. I don't know. 13 540. Q. It might be true; it might not be 14 true? 15 A. I don't recall this. If that's what 16 it says, I guess I have no reason not to believe it. 17 541. Q. Well, it's you. 18 A. I don't recall what I said. I don't 19 even remember what we were talking about. How many 20 years is this? 21 542. Q. This might be true; this might not 22 be true? 23 A. How many years ago is this? 24 543. Q. Two years ago. 25 A. Okay, yes, I don't remember exactly

R. Ford - 138 1 what happened two years ago. Sorry, the other 2 statement I said five years ago. It was two years 3 ago. 4 544. Q. And then the speaker says: 5 "...Nobody has ever heard of that before, 6 but if you wish to absent yourself, well, 7 you just did..." 8 Do you remember that happening? 9 A. Not word for word, no, I don't 10 recall. 11 545. Q. And after the speaker said: 12 "...Nobody has ever heard of that 13 before..." 14 were you impelled to ask some questions of your 15 staff of, "Why am I leaving this debate?" 16 A. I don't know. I don't recall this. 17 546. Q. "How do I apply it?" anything like 18 that? 19 A. I don't recall this. 20 547. Q. You don't recall anything? 21 A. There are so many decisions she 22 makes, and so many debates. I don't recall. 23 548. Q. So you have no memory of anything 24 happening as a result of this comment by the 25 speaker?

R. Ford - 139 1 A. No. 2 549. Q. Now, you originally received a 3 letter from the integrity commissioner about the 4 reimbursement issue that we are concerned with on 5 August 31st, 2010, right? That's Exhibit S. 6 A. That's what it says. 7 550. Q. That's what it says, and you ignored 8 that letter? 9 A. I presume you're telling me. 10 551. Q. It's a question. 11 A. I guess so, if that's what it says. 12 552. Q. I just know of no action you took. 13 A. I don't remember this. I don't 14 remember all...every event and every day and every 15 time. If that's what it says, I have no reason not 16 to believe it. 17 553. Q. You didn't answer the letter? You 18 didn't do anything in relation to it? 19 A. If that's what it says. 20 554. Q. It doesn't say that. I'm suggesting 21 that's what happened. 22 A. That's what you're reading from. 23 Obviously it says that, so... 24 555. Q. Take a look at Exhibit S. It's the 25 only material we have, page 7, and then I suggest to

R. Ford - 140 1 you... 2 MR. LENCZNER: Page 7, yes. 3 4 BY MR. RUBY: 5 556. Q. Yes, that's the material we're 6 relying on, what happened, and I'm suggesting to you 7 you ignored that letter. 8 A. If that's what it says I did, that's 9 what...I guess I did. 10 557. Q. What was going through your mind? 11 A. I don't remember what was going 12 through my mind. 13 558. Q. When you get a letter from the 14 integrity commissioner, that's, you know, a fairly 15 serious matter, would you not agree? 16 A. Saying what? 17 559. Q. Saying repay. 18 A. I have answered that question 19 before. I didn't believe I should have to pay the 20 3,150 out of my own pocket. 21 560. Q. I have got it, but it's a fairly 22 serious occasion. Why would you not do anything? 23 MR. LENCZNER: Well, he did. He wrote 24 to...you have heard, he wrote to the 25 donors.

R. Ford - 141 1 THE DEPONENT: I have explained this 2 numerous times. 3 MR. LENCZNER: Yes. 4 5 BY MR. RUBY: 6 561. Q. Did you do anything beyond 7 eventually write to the donors? 8 A. I wrote to the donors, and again...I 9 think I have answered this numerous times already. 10 562. Q. When did you write to the donors? 11 A. I don't recall. I don't recall the 12 dates. I have given you an answer already. 13 563. Q. Can I get the date? 14 MR. LENCZNER: Yes, it's in here. It's 15 in the report. We looked at it. 16 564. MR. RUBY: What was that date? 17 MR. LENCZNER: I can't remember what the 18 date was. I think it was...I don't 19 remember. My memory doesn't stretch back 20 far enough. He wrote to the donors, got 21 back a letter from the integrity 22 commissioner . October 24, 2011. 23 565. MR. RUBY: Great. 24 MS. CHAISSON: Can you give me the page 25 reference, please?

R. Ford - 142 1 MR. LENCZNER: Yes, it's at...Mayor Ford 2 wrote to this office, and revealed that he 3 had corresponded to the donors and attached 4 letters. So that's after Exhibit S that 5 you were talking about. He did respond. 6 566. MR. RUBY: Thank you. I just noted that 7 it is indeed one o'clock. 8 MR. LENCZNER: If you have got a few 9 more minutes, go ahead. 10 567. MR. RUBY: What I'm going to suggest is 11 just that I have not got a lot left, and if 12 you can cope with us for a bit longer, we 13 can try and push through and accommodate 14 the mayor. 15 MR. LENCZNER: Okay. What have you got, 16 about 10 minutes? 17 568. MR. RUBY: I don't want to predict it, 18 but I think it'll be short. 19 MR. LENCZNER: All right. Let's just 20 finish it. 21 22 BY MR. RUBY: 23 569. Q. So you don't write that letter for 24 almost...a little more than a year. So when you 25 get...

R. Ford - 143 1 MR. LENCZNER: What letter for almost a 2 year? 3 570. MR. RUBY: This is the letter to the 4 donors, October 24th, 2011. 5 MR. LENCZNER: Yes, it is some time 6 before that, because that's when he writes 7 to the integrity commissioner. 8 571. MR. RUBY: I think it's probably the 9 same time. 10 MR. LENCZNER: Okay, about the 11 same...well, let's take that, sure. 12 13 BY MR. RUBY: 14 572. Q. So more than a year passes. You get 15 the first letter from the integrity commissioner 16 August 31, 2010. You didn't do anything? 17 MR. LENCZNER: Well, no, wait a minute. 18 I'm going to object. I mean, we're not now 19 into, "Well, I didn't write a letter back 20 for a year. Therefore, let's examine on 21 that." It has got nothing to do with this 22 application. So I object. /R 23 573. MR. RUBY: And you're instructing him 24 not to answer? 25 MR. LENCZNER: I'm instructing him not

R. Ford - 144 1 to answer. 2 574. MR. RUBY: And with respect to the 3 second letter dated September 15, 2010, 4 you're doing the same? 5 MR. LENCZNER: The same thing. /R 6 575. MR. RUBY: And the third letter he 7 ignored, May 10, 2011, the same 8 instruction? 9 MR. LENCZNER: Exactly, and June 7 and 10 July 4. How is that? /R 11 576. MR. RUBY: That's very helpful. 12 13 BY MR. RUBY: 14 577. Q. Six letters, and I suggest to you 15 that you didn't reply because you simply were not 16 going to be pushed around by this integrity 17 commissioner. You were going to ignore her. Is 18 that true? 19 A. I think that's probably the fifth 20 time you said that, and I disagree. 21 578. Q. Okay. You couldn't provide proof of 22 reimbursement to the integrity commissioner or 23 council unless you first paid the amount. That's 24 true, right? 25 A. Repeat that again.

R. Ford - 145 1 579. Q. You couldn't provide proof of 2 reimbursement to the integrity commissioner or 3 council unless you first paid the amount, correct? 4 A. I never reimbursed them, so yes, I 5 couldn't. 6 580. Q. Now, you made it clear, I think, 7 that you failed to pay back the $3,150 because you 8 thought it was wrong that council was trying to 9 force you to do that. 10 A. I don't believe I should have to pay 11 that out of my own pocket. 12 581. Q. And did you challenge the council's 13 order? 14 A. How would you challenge the 15 council's order? 16 582. Q. Well, a legal challenge. 17 MR. LENCZNER: How would you do that? 18 Why would you do that? See, Mr. Ruby, you 19 think this down the road, council could 20 bring no action against him. He didn't pay 21 it. Could they initiate a lawsuit? Could 22 it...anyway, we don't need to have this 23 debate. The answer is no, they could not. 24 They have no enforcement mechanism, because 25 of course what they did was beyond their

R. Ford - 146 1 authority. 2 3 BY MR. RUBY: 4 583. Q. You didn't seek judicial review of 5 the council's order? 6 A. No. 7 584. Q. Did you consult with staff or a 8 lawyer about any way of challenging council's order? 9 A. You already asked me that. I said 10 no. 11 585. Q. And from what your lawyer says, I 12 take it you didn't think you could do anything in 13 terms of a lawsuit challenging the council's order? 14 A. No. 15 586. Q. Now I have a series of questions 16 about his relationship with the integrity 17 commissioner, and I suspect you're going to tell me 18 that that's not relevant. 19 MR. LENCZNER: It's irrelevant, and 20 you're right. /R 21 22 BY MR. RUBY: 23 587. Q. Now, before you answer this 24 question, give your lawyer a chance to take a deep 25 breath so he can object if he wants to. Would you

R. Ford - 147 1 agree with me that you tell lies from time to time, 2 especially when you're caught acting wrongly? Is 3 that true? For your assistance, I want to focus 4 first on the Maple Leafs game of April 15, 2006, 5 where he got drunk and lied about being there, and 6 had to apologize for the lie. 7 MR. LENCZNER: I'm not going to let you 8 go into that. /R 9 10 BY MR. RUBY: 11 588. Q. You have a criminal record, as I 12 understand it, for driving? 13 14 R. LENCZNER: Don't answer that. /R 15 16 BY MR. RUBY: 17 589. Q. And you lied to a Toronto Sun 18 reporter about a marijuana charge in Florida. 19 MR. LENCZNER: Don't answer that 20 question. /R 21 22 BY MR. RUBY: 23 590. Q. And you had on that occasion a joint 24 in your back pocket? 25 MR. LENCZNER: Don't answer that

R. Ford - 148 1 question. /R 2 591. MR. RUBY: Thank you very much. My 3 friend may have some questions he wants to 4 ask you. 5 MR. LENCZNER: No. Thank you. Thank 6 you very much.