Transcript
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Deposition of Timothy Williams

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1 SUPERIOR COURT OF CALIFORNIA

2 COUNTY OF SANTA CLARA

3

4 GARRETT BONDAUG, ) )

5 Plaintiff, ) )

6 ) vs. ) Case No. 1-12-CV-238152

7 ) )

8 CITY OF SANTA CLARA, a public ) entity; GREG DEGER, an )

9 individual; COLIN STEWART, an ) individual; and DOES 1 through )

10 50, Inclusive, ) )

11 Defendants. ) _________________________________)

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19 DEPOSITION OF TIMOTHY T. WILLIAMS, JR.

20 Los Angeles, California

21 Monday, January 5, 2015

22

23

24 REPORTED BY:

25 RICH ALOSSI, RPR, CCRR, CSR NO. 13497

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Deposition of Timothy Williams

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1 SUPERIOR COURT OF CALIFORNIA

2 COUNTY OF SANTA CLARA

3

4 GARRETT BONDAUG, ) )

5 Plaintiff, ) )

6 ) vs. ) Case No. 1-12-CV-238152

7 ) )

8 CITY OF SANTA CLARA, a public ) entity; GREG DEGER, an )

9 individual; COLIN STEWART, an ) individual; and DOES 1 through )

10 50, Inclusive, ) )

11 Defendants. ) _________________________________)

12

13

14

15

16

17

18 DEPOSITION OF TIMOTHY T. WILLIAMS, JR., taken on

19 behalf of the Defendants, at 445 South Figueroa Street,

20 Suite 3100, Los Angeles, California, on Monday, January 5,

21 2015, from 10:47 A.M. to 12:40 P.M., before RICH ALOSSI,

22 RPR, CCRR, CSR NO. 13497, pursuant to Notice.

23 * * *

24

25

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1 APPEARANCES:

2

3 For the Plaintiff:

4 HOLMES & USOZ LLP BY: STEPHEN J. USOZ, Attorney at Law

5 333 West Santa Clara Street, Suite 805 San Jose, California 95113

6 (408) 292-7600 [email protected]

7 For the Defendants:

8 RANKIN, STOCK & HEABERLIN

9 BY: JON A. HEABERLIN, Attorney at Law 96 North Third Street, Suite 500

10 San Jose, California 95112-7709 (408) 293-0463

11 [email protected]

12 Also Present:

13 GARRETT BONDAUG

14

15

16

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19

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21

22

23

24

25

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1 I N D E X

2 WITNESS PAGE TIMOTHY T. WILLIAMS, JR.

4 BY MR. HEABERLIN 5

5 BY MR. USOZ 76

6

7

8 E X H I B I T S

9

10 (None.)

11

12

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1 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; MONDAY, JANUARY 5, 2015

2 10:47 A.M. - 12:40 P.M.

3

4 TIMOTHY T. WILLIAMS, JR.,

5 having been first duly sworn by

6 the court reporter, was examined

7 and testified as follows:

8

9 EXAMINATION

10:47 10 BY MR. HEABERLIN:

11 Q Good morning, sir.

12 Can you are please state your name for the

13 record.

14 A Timothy T. Williams, Junior. T-i-m-o-t-h-y,

10:48 15 Williams, W-i-l-l-i-a-m-s.

16 Q Mr. Williams, have you ever had a deposition

17 before?

18 A I have.

19 Q About how many times?

10:48 20 A I anticipated your question, and I have an

21 answer here for you.

22 Forty-seven times.

23 Q Okay for me to dispense with the ground rules

24 for a deposition?

10:48 25 A You can do that.

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1 Q Okay. There are a number of file materials

2 in front of you, and I want to, in the most efficient

3 way possible, inventory everything that's here.

4 Let me just ask you first: Did you bring

10:48 5 your entire file relating to Mr. Bondaug's case?

6 A I did.

7 Q Can you -- do you have an index, or do you

8 want to sort of take me through things?

9 A I have an index for each volume, and it's

10:48 10 self-explanatory there. I made some copies for -- I

11 know you wanted copies of my notes; so I made copies of

12 that as well.

13 Q Okay. Well, let's just start with your

14 first --

10:49 15 A First volume.

16 Q -- first volume.

17 And you're pushing that over to me. And the

18 first tab, is that "PL chrono?

19 A Yeah.

10:49 20 Q And what is that?

21 A That's the chrono, the time I spent on the

22 case.

23 Q The first entry I see is 12/2/2014?

24 A That's correct.

10:49 25 Q Is that when you were first contacted in this

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1 case?

2 A I believe so. I don't have the narrative in

3 front of me, but I'm sure that it was.

4 Q Fair enough.

10:49 5 And then Tab 2 is "Notes."

6 Probably an obvious question, but what's

7 contained --

8 A Notes.

9 Q Notes on depositions? Notes on everything?

10:49 10 A Notes on everything.

11 Q Okay.

12 A Then I have my CV -- current CV and log of

13 cases I'm handling.

14 Q I went on your website over the weekend and

10:50 15 printed off your CV.

16 Do you know whether this is the same as

17 what's on there now?

18 A No. My person is going to be updating my

19 stuff. I brought my current stuff with me.

10:50 20 Q Thank you.

21 Line 3, "Confidential Correspondence," what's

22 contained therein?

23 A I don't know what you have there. I have to

24 look at it.

10:50 25 Q Sure.

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1 A It's just one of two emails from -- and I

2 also -- your notice for me to do a deposition prior to

3 me being contacted.

4 Q Just for the record, that's the Notice of

10:50 5 Deposition that I signed on December 10th, 2014?

6 A That's correct.

7 Q Okay. 4 is your retainer. And that's a

8 retainer agreement?

9 A That's correct.

10:51 10 Q Did you happen to bring a copy of that?

11 A I did.

12 Q Okay. Great.

13 5, "expenses." Looks like it's blank.

14 A That's correct.

10:51 15 Q What typically would go in the "expenses"

16 tab?

17 A If I would go someplace that I have parking

18 related to this or travel or anything that's related to

19 expenses.

10:51 20 Q 6 is your billing. And then this is -- I

21 guess it's stated herein, but up through what date is

22 your billing?

23 A Current up to today.

24 Q Your hourly is 300?

10:51 25 A It is.

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1 Q And to date, you've billed 34.75 hours?

2 A That's correct.

3 Q Were you given a retainer?

4 A I was.

10:51 5 Q What was the amount of that retainer?

6 A If you pull back to the retainer section.

7 Q Number 4.

8 A Behind the retainer is a copy of the check.

9 This is the retainer as well. 4,500.

10:52 10 Q That's from the Holmes & Usoz law firm?

11 A That's right.

12 Q What is your rate regarding trial testimony?

13 A The same.

14 Q Do you require any type of additional

10:52 15 retainer before coming to trial?

16 A Yes. In the retainer agreement, I require a

17 certain amount of hours. And it's outlined in the

18 retainer agreement.

19 Q Tab 7 is a Rule 26 report. We're in state

10:52 20 court; so I assume you didn't do one for that reason?

21 A That's correct.

22 Q 8, "Plaintiff's substitute expert

23 disclosure." I'm familiar with that document.

24 And then I think the rest of these we can

10:52 25 start to go fairly quickly.

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1 Tabs 9 through 14 is the original report of

2 Officer Deger and the supplementals of Schneider,

3 Nelson, Eldridge, Morgan and Stewart.

4 15, maps and photos. Did you -- how did you

10:53 5 obtain these?

6 A Through discovery.

7 Q Were they provided to you by --

8 A By counsel, yeah.

9 Q Okay. Did you ever go visit the scene?

10:53 10 A I have not.

11 Q You say you have not.

12 Do you have plans to do that?

13 A When we have trial, I plan to go up there

14 maybe the day before and visit.

10:53 15 Q Okay. Tab 16, "Mike York Investigation." I

16 think I'm familiar with this document. It's a --

17 A I didn't number the pages; so I don't know

18 how many pages there are.

19 Q Looks like there's 19. Okay. We can start

10:54 20 to go fast again.

21 We next have the depositions of Garrett

22 Bondaug, Daniela Demaree, Tatiana Andre, Sandra Alfaro,

23 Richard Garcia, Kristoffer Garcia, Jamie Ellis, Lauren

24 Larsen, Anne Medefesser.

10:54 25 So from your Volume 1, I guess the things

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1 that I'll need copies of are your notes, billing,

2 retainer, and PL chrono.

3 Did you bring copies of --

4 A I didn't bring it. I'll make a copy of the

10:54 5 chrono report. Let me give you the notes.

6 Q If you have a copy --

7 A I'll give it to you.

8 Q Thanks. Just to be safe.

9 A This is my updated CV. Not CV, but cases

10:55 10 I've testified in.

11 This is my updated CV.

12 This is my fee schedule.

13 My retainer.

14 And I'll get you a copy of the --

10:55 15 Q Great. That's all that's contained within

16 Binder 1?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Now I'm going to move to Volume 2.

19 A Let me give you this, too, before I forget.

10:56 20 Q Sure.

21 A These are some of the things I've reviewed,

22 and these are three discs in here, and they are Bondaug

23 injury photos, Mike York's photos of scene, and

24 Bondaug's scene photos. These are the same here.

10:56 25 Q So everything you just described is on this

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1 one DVD-ROM?

2 A Three CDs.

3 Q They're all in here?

4 A Yes.

10:56 5 Q Sounds like at least some of that is new.

6 MR. USOZ: The York's report corresponds to the

7 York's photo, scene. I have a disc for you. But it

8 sounds like you've got the same disc there.

9 MR. HEABERLIN: Okay.

10:57 10 BY MR. HEABERLIN:

11 Q What is on Bondaug scene photos? Is that

12 the --

13 A I think it's nine photos of the front porch

14 area.

10:57 15 Q Okay. Do you know when those were taken?

16 A I don't.

17 Q Okay. All right. So getting back to

18 Volume 2, this begins at Tab 26. We have the

19 deposition of Tristan Powell, Officer Colin Stewart,

10:57 20 Sergeant Derek Rush, Detective Gregory Deger; the SCPD

21 Arrestee Injury Report, has reporting officer Colin

22 Stewart; the Pre Booking Information Sheet, arresting

23 officer Gregory Deger; the SCPD Supplemental Report,

24 reporting officer L. Eldridge; the Watch Commander

10:57 25 Report; the County of Santa Clara Crime Lab

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1 Physiological Specimen Report, requesting officer,

2 Officer Eldridge; Office of District Attorney Bureau of

3 Investigation Investigation Report, requesting officer

4 Richard Tietgens.

10:58 5 I'll just note that's not a document I've

6 seen; so I'll have to ask for a copy of that.

7 A You noted which section it was; right?

8 Q Tab 35.

9 MR. USOZ: I thought you guys provided that.

10:58 10 MR. HEABERLIN: Maybe we did.

11 MR. USOZ: But I'll get you a copy regardless.

12 BY MR. HEABERLIN:

13 Q Next is Tab 36, Calls For Service Details.

14 That one looks familiar.

10:59 15 37, SCPD Incident Recall. It's what I sort

16 of think of as the cab printout.

17 38, Incident Report. That's the fire report.

18 39, Printout from Court re: People versus

19 Garrett Bondaug. It's the minute order from the

10:59 20 dismissal and a couple of other minute orders.

21 Tab 40, Affidavit of Custodian of Records to

22 Ambulance Provider. It appears to be the subpoenaed

23 records from Rural Metro.

24 41 is Authorization for use and/or Disclosure

11:00 25 of Protected Health Info. It appears to be the

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1 subpoenaed records from Valley Medical Center.

2 Next is Tab 42, Integrity Document Solutions,

3 Inc., Santa Clara Valley Medical Records. These also

4 appear to be excerpts from the subpoenaed records from

11:01 5 Valley Medical Center.

6 Tab 43, Affidavit of Custodian of Records to

7 Healthcare Recoveries. This appears to be excerpts of

8 the billing records for Kaiser totaling $738.

9 44, Omega DNA & Drug Screening Services.

11:01 10 This appears to be what's -- what I've been referring

11 to as the hair follicle test.

12 45, Affidavit of Custodian of Records to

13 Kaiser Foundation Hospital. And this appears to be

14 copies of the subpoenaed records to Kaiser -- medical

11:02 15 records, that is.

16 Okay. Tab 46, Profile Report of Deger. That

17 appears to be excerpts of Officer Deger's training

18 listing.

19 47, Individual Training Activity,

11:02 20 Officer Deger. This appears to be what I think is

21 usually called the POST printout of Deger's training.

22 A That doesn't come from POST. That comes from

23 his department.

24 Q Thank you.

11:02 25 48 is the same Individual Training Activity

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1 for Lauren Larsen.

2 49 is the confidential -- how would you

3 describe this document?

4 A It's dealing with her internal -- this is

11:03 5 from the personnel file. The internal trainings that

6 she's had. I would assume this is maybe part of the

7 academy, something she went through.

8 Q Okay. 50, Individual Training Activity

9 printout for Colin Stewart.

11:03 10 51 is that document marked Confidential

11 Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training for

12 Officer Stewart.

13 52 is a copy of the complaint.

14 53 is a copy of the City's Responses to form

11:04 15 Interrogatories, set one.

16 54 is a copy of the City's Responses to

17 Special Interrogatories, set one.

18 55 is a copy of the City's Responses to

19 Demand For Production of Documents, set one.

11:04 20 56 is Deger's Responses to Form

21 Interrogatories, set one.

22 57 is Deger's Responses to Request For

23 Admissions, set one.

24 58 is Deger's Responses to Special

11:04 25 Interrogatories, set one.

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1 59 is Deger's responses to plaintiff's demand

2 for production of documents, set one.

3 60 is officer Stewart's Responses to Form

4 Interrogatories, set one.

11:04 5 And 61 is Officer Stewart's Responses to

6 Special Interrogatories, set one.

7 Now, in your index, there's a second column

8 that says "date." Is that the date when it happened or

9 the date when you reviewed, or what is that?

11:05 10 A That was the date when the document was

11 authored.

12 Q Okay. Did you say that you did bring a copy

13 of these indexes?

14 A If you want them, I can make copies of them.

11:05 15 But it was just an index of everything that I received.

16 Q That I just rattled off?

17 A Right. But what you gave to counsel as it

18 relates to all the discovery in this matter. So you

19 should have them. It's in an organized fashion.

11:05 20 Q Thank you.

21 Fortunately, Volume 3 is a lot more brief.

22 Tab 62 appears to be the --

23 A Policy.

24 Q Is this the whole thing or just the

11:05 25 sections --

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1 A Just the sections that are applicable. It's

2 a portion of Santa Clara PD's policies and procedures.

3 Q I'll note that it's dated July 2011.

4 And then 63 is the domestic violence Protocol

11:06 5 dated 2014, adopted by the Police Chiefs Association of

6 Santa Clara County.

7 Tab 64 is the same protocol which was adopted

8 in February 2009.

9 Okay. Anything else that is part of your

11:06 10 file that we haven't talked about yet?

11 A These are just photos that you have already,

12 that you have there.

13 Q Okay.

14 A And it's printouts of that.

11:06 15 Q Do you mind if I take a quick look. I

16 honestly haven't seen them yet.

17 MR. USOZ: You can look at the photos, but I'm

18 going to give you a disc with them on and copy of the

19 report of York's, which you may have a copy of.

11:07 20 THE WITNESS: While you're looking at that, I'll

21 make a copy of this, if you want me to.

22 MR. HEABERLIN: Okay.

23 THE REPORTER: Off the record?

24 MR. HEABERLIN: Yes.

11:07 25 (Off the record.)

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1 BY MR. HEABERLIN:

2 Q Did you happen to bring -- were there any

3 email communications between you and either Mr. Bondaug

4 or his attorney, Mr. Usoz?

11:13 5 A No.

6 Q None whatsoever?

7 A What was -- I showed you in confidential

8 documents and --

9 Q That was one of the first tabs.

11:13 10 A Yeah. I think I showed you. And it was just

11 stating here -- this is from 12/11. January 12th is

12 the start of the two-week trial, just letting me know

13 that.

14 And this is from me to his assistant that I'm

11:14 15 unavailable for deposition on the 29th. My earliest

16 availability is the 25th -- I mean the 5th of January,

17 which is today.

18 Q Do you mind if I take one more look at those?

19 A Of course.

11:14 20 Q So other than those emails, no other email

21 communications between you and either Mr. Bondaug or

22 his attorney?

23 A That's correct.

24 Q Have you spoken by telephone to Mr. Bondaug

11:14 25 himself?

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1 A Initially, when I was first retained, I

2 was -- he was vetting experts, and he vetted me, and I

3 guess I won the vet.

4 Q What did he tell you that led you to conclude

11:15 5 that he was vetting experts?

6 A He was just looking at my background. I've

7 been in this business now going 11 years, and I've been

8 doing this for 41. So I kind of know when a person is

9 being vetted. I told him my background, told him to

11:15 10 look me up on my web page and to check further on me.

11 Q So the first person who contacted you wasn't

12 the attorney; it was Mr. Bondaug himself?

13 A That's correct.

14 Q Do you remember anything that was discussed

11:15 15 during that initial telephone call with Mr. Bondaug?

16 A Nothing more than the fact that he had a

17 use-of-force case. He didn't get into the specifics of

18 it. I told him I would need to talk to the attorney,

19 but to have the attorney give me a call.

11:15 20 Q Okay. Let's talk about your experience in

21 law enforcement. And I took a look at your CV.

22 You worked for LAPD?

23 A I did.

24 Q For how long?

11:16 25 A Twenty-nine years and five months.

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1 Q What was the highest rank you achieved during

2 your time there?

3 A Senior detective supervisor.

4 Q Did you ever apply to become a sergeant or a

11:16 5 lieutenant or anything else?

6 A I did.

7 Q Were you rejected?

8 A No. I took those down, and I was on the

9 list. And my number was 55 before my name came up and

11:16 10 I retired.

11 Q So you passed the qualifications, but there

12 wasn't a spot?

13 A Here in the city of Los Angeles, you are put

14 on a list, and as openings come up, then they promote

11:16 15 you, either through attrition or -- it's like a domino

16 effect. When a new person gets promoted, there's an

17 opening, and then they fill that. They have a rule of

18 three.

19 Q Is the process that you first get selected

11:17 20 and then you go through the training and testing, or do

21 you go through the training and testing first, get

22 approved and then go on the list?

23 A You take a written test and an oral, and then

24 you get chosen.

11:17 25 Q When, in your police career, did you do that

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1 for either sergeant or lieutenant?

2 A I didn't go the sergeant route. I went the

3 lieutenant route. That was in 2001, I believe it was.

4 Q Did you ever work for any other law

11:17 5 enforcement agencies?

6 A No, I didn't work for them. I trained with

7 them, and we worked with them, working robbery and

8 homicide division. There's a city-wide division where

9 we work city-wide, and you work with other agencies as

11:17 10 it relates to serial crimes and high-profile crimes.

11 So I worked with a lot of different agencies throughout

12 the state, and basically throughout the country.

13 Q What are some of those other agencies?

14 A Oh, shoot. I've worked with -- what is

11:18 15 it? -- Newport Beach. I've worked with Gardena Police

16 Department. I've worked with Culver City Police

17 Department. I've worked with the Sheriff's Department.

18 I've worked with some agencies in Northern California.

19 I can't recall which ones now.

11:18 20 There's more than just working with me,

21 getting into -- assisting me in my investigations I was

22 doing in Northern California. I worked with the

23 Detroit Police Department on a murder case. I've

24 worked with the New York Police Department on a murder

11:18 25 case. So I've worked pretty much different places.

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1 Q During your time at LAPD, for how many years

2 were you a patrol officer?

3 A I think a total of three. A little over

4 three years.

11:19 5 Q And what were some of the other hats you wore

6 or duties you had in the remaining times?

7 A Well, obviously, we all had to start working

8 patrol, and I worked an administrative assignment. I

9 worked personnel group where I was in -- I represented

11:19 10 the department as it relates to recruitment efforts. I

11 taught a physical training class for those who were

12 coming into the department, and I taught remedial

13 English for those who were in the academy.

14 I worked various detective assignments. I

11:19 15 worked robbery/homicide, crimes against persons. When

16 I say "crimes against person," that's attempted

17 murders, assaults, things of that nature. Auto theft,

18 juvenile, narcotics.

19 I worked two and a half years in narcotics.

11:19 20 I worked as an adjutant. An adjutant is an aide to a

21 commanding officer at the divisional level, where I was

22 in charge of all the administrative functions for that

23 detective division as well as the administrative

24 civilian personnel.

11:20 25 I reviewed reports as they came up through

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1 our chain of command and went up through the bureau.

2 Then I worked as an adjutant at detective services

3 group, and that was at the staff level. When I say

4 "the staff level," that's at the chief's level.

11:20 5 And I was -- detective service group had

6 city-wide oversight over all the detective functions in

7 the department. I was the department's representative

8 in that area. I was the department's spokesperson in

9 the area of domestic violence, the hate crime.

11:20 10 And I worked with the district attorney, City

11 attorney and the courts as it relates to the

12 consolidation of the court system at that time where

13 they had night court, worked closely with the judges in

14 that area.

11:21 15 Also was instrumentality in creating the

16 domestic violence program for the department, and I

17 represented the department statewide in its efforts as

18 it relates to sitting on different committees

19 statewide. I lectured and talked before several

11:21 20 foreign delegations, and I told them what we were

21 doing, and they took some of our prototypes and used it

22 in their respective countries as well.

23 That's pretty much what I've done during the

24 course of my career.

11:21 25 Q So that domestic violence work that you did,

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1 I saw it on your CV described as a time management

2 study.

3 A Yeah. What I did, I was a supervisor working

4 the crimes against persons detail, and I did a study.

11:21 5 The majority of the stuff coming through was

6 domestic-violence related. I did a time management

7 study and I looked at it and submitted it through the

8 chain.

9 They tapped me to do -- run a pilot program

11:21 10 for the department, which I did, and went through the

11 police commission, and it was approved and reorganized,

12 the detective function, for the first time in 50 years

13 during that time. To this date, we have a singular

14 focus -- the department has a singular focus as it

11:22 15 relates to domestic violence.

16 Q I'm sorry. You were evaluating how much time

17 was spent on domestic violence calls versus other

18 calls?

19 A No. The investigative side of the aisle.

11:22 20 Looking at what we were spending time investigating as

21 relates to assaults versus domestic-violence-related

22 situations. And we found that, in the division I was

23 working at, 85 percent of the calls or investigations

24 we were doing was domestic-violence related.

11:22 25 The department thought it was worth looking

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1 into, and I ran the program, and it was reorganized as

2 a -- the detective function was reorganized, and now

3 you have the major assault crimes unit.

4 Q So 85 percent of all calls coming in --

11:22 5 A Not calls. Investigations that relates to

6 assaults or crimes against persons.

7 Q I got it.

8 A And that reorganization also dealt with the

9 reorganization of patrol as well.

11:23 10 Q And if I -- I hope I'm saying this correctly.

11 One of the things you concluded was that more resources

12 needed on the investigations side -- needed to be used

13 for domestic violence?

14 A Yeah. It was -- in my opinion, they needed a

11:23 15 singular focus for domestic violence, and the

16 department agreed with it and the police commission

17 agreed with it.

18 Q What do you mean by "singular focus"?

19 A Well, instead of having a canopy in crimes

11:23 20 against persons to include domestic violence, you

21 needed a singular focus on domestic violence. You

22 still dealt with crimes against persons, the assaults

23 and the attempted murders. That was still in place.

24 But now you had another unit called major assault

11:23 25 crimes.

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1 Q You may have just started to answer this, but

2 as a result of your conclusions, what changes were made

3 within the department, either policy, resources --

4 A Sure. We worked very closely with the City

11:24 5 attorney and the district attorney's offices as well as

6 we had court -- judges that were sitting on the panels

7 that I chaired as well. And we developed policies and

8 procedures as it relates to the domestic violence

9 situation within the city of Los Angeles.

11:24 10 And from there, we developed a domestic

11 violence protocol. Policies and procedures were

12 implemented in the department manual on how to address

13 these issues.

14 We trained with emergency room physicians on

11:24 15 how to look for certain injuries as it relates to

16 domestic violence.

17 And it was a -- it was a full-focused

18 approach to the issue of domestic violence. And we

19 also even had folks sitting on the defense side that

11:24 20 were involved in that committee.

21 Q Are the materials that resulted, the policies

22 and procedures -- are those memorialized anywhere? Are

23 they still a part of the LAPD?

24 A Yes, they're still there.

11:25 25 Q Okay. For example, the topic of separating

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1 witnesses in a domestic violence situation, is that

2 something that your work led to or addressed?

3 A Well, you know, it's -- if you understand law

4 enforcement, separating witnesses to talk to them is

11:25 5 not unique to domestic violence issues; it's unique to

6 conducting an investigation, any case, be it an auto

7 theft, a juvenile-related case, murder, including

8 domestic violence.

9 You learn -- you are taught that in the

11:25 10 academy. You are taught that in detective school.

11 You're taught that in detective supervisor school.

12 You're taught that in advanced patrol training. You're

13 taught that in sergeant school. It's something you're

14 taught throughout your career. Always, always separate

11:26 15 witnesses so that you can get an unvarnished or

16 unmolested rendition of what happened to the case

17 you're investigating. So it's not unique to domestic

18 violence.

19 Domestic violence talks about -- the

11:26 20 protocols talk about that in domestic violence, but

21 it's not unique to domestic violence alone.

22 Q And you've done a fair amount of training of

23 police officers yourself; true?

24 A I have.

11:26 25 Q Are you a POST-certified trainer?

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1 A I'm not.

2 Q Is there such a thing?

3 A Well, if you work in the academy -- and I

4 didn't work in the academy, but if you work in the

11:26 5 academy, you are a POST-certified instructor. I was

6 trained -- I got my teacher credentials, and I was

7 trained by the FBI. I have lifetime credentials in the

8 state of California.

9 I've also taught a POST-certified course when

11:26 10 I was working robbery/homicide division at the academy

11 in-service training as it relates to putting together

12 six packs. When I say "six packs," identifications,

13 spreads, on how to do that properly, and I taught

14 detectives and vice personnel on that.

11:27 15 Q When did you first begin training other

16 officers? When in your career did you first do that?

17 A I was working patrol. I had the

18 responsibility of training new recruits as they came

19 out. I was the training officer, and I trained the

11:27 20 recruits as they came out.

21 When I went to detectives, as I matriculated

22 through the detective ranks, I trained other personnel

23 that worked for me. And so pretty much all my career,

24 even when I worked robbery/homicide division, I was

11:27 25 over -- I had functional supervision over a bureau.

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1 When I say a "bureau," you have, I think, four or five

2 divisions in a bureau. And I had certain crimes I had

3 city-wide control over those crimes.

4 And I met with staff, detective personnel on

11:28 5 a regular basis, and I trained them and taught them,

6 you know, what to look for and what we needed to do --

7 what they needed to get to us for us to do our jobs.

8 So it was a constant thing throughout my career.

9 Q Did you ever do the type of training where

11:28 10 you go into a police agency and lecture officers for a

11 period of time?

12 A I've lectured now in my post-law-enforcement

13 career. I lectured in Manchester, England. I've

14 taught sworn personnel in England and the United States

11:28 15 as it relates to use of force and those types of --

16 police procedural issues. I've lectured active

17 officers in different conferences here in the

18 United States from time to time.

19 I've also lectured Public Defenders and

11:29 20 private attorneys, defense attorneys throughout the

21 state of California.

22 Q But actually going into a police agency, have

23 you done that type of thing?

24 A No. Just what I've told you.

11:29 25 Q Okay. Fair enough.

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1 Have you ever given -- I'm sure you have.

2 Have you given trial testimony?

3 A More than I care to remember.

4 Q What's your best estimate as to -- and I know

11:29 5 we have a list here. I'm not trying to trick you.

6 A You know, I keep track of what I've done. I

7 think it's about 120 times as I've been keeping track

8 since 2005. I've been doing with federal civil rights

9 cases, and they want to know this information. And

11:29 10 your colleagues want to know it, too.

11 And prior to law enforcement -- I hate to use

12 the word "thousand," but I'm sure it was thousands of

13 times.

14 Q You were kind enough to give me a list of

11:30 15 cases that you've offered trial or deposition

16 testimony, but let me kind of broaden things a little

17 more.

18 How often or how many active litigation files

19 do you handle in any given year, even those that don't

11:30 20 go to trial or deposition?

21 MR. USOZ: Over what time span? Since he started

22 doing this?

23 BY MR. HEABERLIN:

24 Q Yeah.

11:30 25 A Well, my assistant -- because I wanted that

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1 question answered myself. And she told me I did, I

2 think -- I think it was beginning of last year --

3 pretty close to a thousand cases I've handled since I

4 retired.

11:30 5 Q When you qualify as an expert, is it

6 typically police practices generally, or have you been

7 qualified in more specific topic areas?

8 A Police procedure areas as it relates to --

9 when you say "police procedures," that encompasses a

11:30 10 lot of stuff. It encompasses investigations. I talked

11 about proper investigations. I talked about proper

12 patrol procedures.

13 I talked about the procedural aspect as from

14 the time the call is received by the patrol officers

11:31 15 until the detective files that case. I talked about

16 the evidence that should have been looked at. I've

17 talked about certain things that should have been

18 brought to the investigation, like DNA, for instance.

19 If there's computer stuff, forensic analysis. I've

11:31 20 talked about that. I have talked about that.

21 So I just deal with all those issues. Use of

22 force. I've talked about what the issue -- what type

23 of force officers are trained with or to use. It's not

24 agency specific or taught by POST. And a lot of

11:31 25 agencies -- either it takes what POST suggests or are

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1 more restrictive.

2 Let me give you an example. San Francisco

3 Sheriff's Department. POST teaches the carotid.

4 San Francisco Sheriff's Department prohibits the

11:32 5 carotid hold. So even though POST teaches this stuff,

6 they don't set policy. It drives policy. And it's up

7 to the chiefs or City attorney or County counsel as to

8 what they're going to do as far as what liabilities

9 they are willing to face or be exposed to.

11:32 10 Q Has there ever been a case where you've given

11 trial testimony where you were either not qualified as

12 an expert or the ambit of your expertise was limited in

13 some way by the court?

14 A The courts always limit you. You guys argue

11:32 15 back and forth, and when I get in the courtroom, I'm

16 told what I can't testify to and what I can testify to.

17 So to answer that question, no. I only had

18 one case where an attorney has never used an expert

19 before, she didn't know how to qualify an expert, and

11:32 20 every time she asked me a question, the DA objected,

21 and the objection was sustained. She just got

22 frustrated and moved on.

23 Q Do you remember what case that was?

24 A I have no idea. It was several years ago.

11:33 25 Q When you are -- strike that.

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1 Your active practice, how often are folks --

2 strike that.

3 Do you do both criminal and civil work?

4 A I do.

11:33 5 Q What percentage as to each?

6 A You know, I've never -- let me look at it

7 this way here. I think I have it broken down. I have

8 a little cheat sheet. I'm going to give you this

9 breakdown here, and once I give you the breakdown, it

11:33 10 may answer your questions.

11 I've testified a total of 120 times. Of that

12 number, 47 have been depositions. This is my 48th

13 deposition. Civil rights cases of that same number, 22

14 have been civil rights cases. Criminal trials, 51 have

11:34 15 been criminal trials.

16 Now, I broke it down further. Use of force

17 in criminal. I've testified in use of force in

18 criminal trials six times. I've testified in use of

19 force in this -- in civil rights cases in the state

11:34 20 court 13 times. And I've testified in use of force in

21 federal court six times. All that is broken down from

22 the 120 that I gave you.

23 Q In all of your criminal work, are you hired

24 by both the district attorney and the criminal defense

11:34 25 side? Have you been?

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1 A No. No. I've been hired by private counsel

2 or the Public Defender's Office.

3 Q On the civil rights side, have you ever been

4 hired by the police agency side?

11:34 5 A I have. I have one case now I've been

6 retained on that's in the Brea Police Department. And

7 I was retained by San Joaquin County on a domestic

8 violence case. They didn't have confidence in the

9 Sheriff's Department's experts; so they retained me.

11:35 10 Wrote the Rule 26 report, then the case settled.

11 Q So other than -- I forgot the name of the

12 public entity.

13 MR. USOZ: Brea.

14 BY MR. HEABERLIN:

11:35 15 Q -- Brea and San Joaquin, can you think of any

16 other civil rights cases ever that you've been retained

17 by the police agency side?

18 A No, none.

19 Q In your use of force cases where you've

11:36 20 presented trial testimony, whether it be criminal or

21 civil rights, did you conclude in each and every one of

22 those cases that the level of force used was excessive?

23 A Yes, I did. I think in some instances, some

24 of the force was used was justified, but I'd say about

11:36 25 98 percent of it was objectively unreasonable and

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1 excessive force.

2 Q Okay. Just a few more questions about your

3 background, and then we'll get into the more

4 interesting -- not that your background is not

11:36 5 interesting. We'll get into the actual case.

6 You were or maybe still are part of something

7 called the Oscar Joel Bryant POA. What was your

8 involvement there?

9 A The Oscar Joel Bryant Association was a black

11:37 10 law enforcement association of Southern California, and

11 I was the president for six years. I was on the

12 National Association of Black Police Officers as well.

13 I was on the national board of directors for that.

14 Q I saw in your CV something about management

11:37 15 responsibility for 30,000 to 40,000 members.

16 What did you do to manage all of those

17 members?

18 A We dealt with the issues as it relates to the

19 sworn and civilians throughout Southern California.

11:37 20 And we dealt with issues as relates to upward mobility,

21 discrimination issues and things of that nature.

22 That's what we dealt with.

23 Q Okay. Let's talk about the incident

24 involving Mr. Bondaug and Santa Clara police officers.

11:37 25 Do you have sort of a listing of your

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1 opinions or --

2 A I just wrote something real quick. I have

3 11 findings.

4 Q Did you already give me a copy of that, or

5 not?

6 A I did not.

7 Q Okay. Why don't you just take me through

8 them.

9 A Okay. I don't know if you can read my

11:38 10 writing on this, so --

11 Q Okay.

12 A The first thing is that -- as Deger, when he

13 approached the Bondaug residence, he should have

14 informed the residents of his call in specificity.

11:38 15 What I mean by "specificity," he received a call, this

16 is what the call stated about hearing somebody say --

17 I'm paraphrasing -- get your behind inside, bitch,

18 and -- or get inside now.

19 And if he had done that, we wouldn't be

11:38 20 sitting here today. They would have told him -- and

21 from the depositions of the -- of Daniela, Sandra and

22 Tatiana, that -- more specifically Sandra and Tatiana,

23 when they came back from an evening out, they were --

24 they approached -- they were going to the front door,

11:38 25 and there was a pile of leaves in their front yard, and

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1 the plaintiff and his girlfriend Sandra were playing in

2 the leaves, and then, you know, they told -- you know,

3 the comment was made, but made in a playful manner.

4 And there was no issue of domestic violence

11:39 5 there at all. If they had -- if Deger had approached

6 it properly, interviewing each -- separating each one

7 and interviewing them briefly, he would have found that

8 that was the case, that they did -- the statement was

9 stated by the parties, but it was stated in a joking

11:39 10 manner. There was no domestic violence at all.

11 Q From your review of the file materials, do

12 you believe that Officer Deger had the opportunity to

13 interview them separately?

14 A Oh, sure. It's how you approach the

11:39 15 situation, you know. He took a course called Verbal

16 Judo. Verbal Judo is how you handle egregious or

17 hostile situations. You have to go in there and calm

18 or deescalate the situation. Here, there was nothing

19 that was escalated. In my opinion, he escalated the

11:40 20 situation.

21 But you go in there and say, look, I'm here.

22 You guys -- I'm interrupting what you're doing. I want

23 to get away. I know you want me out of here. This is

24 why I'm here. This is what I was told. Come out here

11:40 25 and talk to me and tell me what's going on.

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1 Oh, yeah, yeah. We said that. The reason

2 why we said that and so on and so forth. Great. Let

3 me talk to your friend in there. Let me talk to mom.

4 Mom, come out here.

11:40 5 Then he says, this is great. Let me go in

6 here. I've got to make sure that no one in here is

7 hurt. Okay. Sure. Come on in. Go in there and look,

8 five minutes, I'm gone. That's what should have been

9 done.

11:40 10 Q Do you accept the testimony of some of the

11 witnesses that Mr. Bondaug came out onto the porch and

12 confronted Officer Deger?

13 A From the information that I gather -- I read

14 everything in total so I get a total picture -- Deger

11:40 15 asked him to come out on the front porch. And I think

16 it was -- some accounts say they asked him to come out

17 twice, and he came out the second time. Some accounts

18 say he came out the first time. But he came out at the

19 invitation of Officer Deger. And that's why he came

11:41 20 out on the front porch.

21 Q So do you have an opinion that he should

22 have -- let me back up.

23 What additional specificity do you believe he

24 should have provided that would have alleviated this

11:41 25 whole situation?

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1 A That's what I testified to previously. He

2 should have laid everything out. This is not a

3 confidential investigation. You're there on a radio

4 call. You're there to find out if, in fact, there's

11:41 5 been anybody hurt or a domestic violence issue is going

6 on.

7 You lay everything out, tell them what the

8 call stated, and they would have told him -- I think

9 even Tatiana stated, if he had said that, then we would

11:41 10 have told him. And the call would have been resolved

11 without issue, in my mind.

12 Q Okay. What about where the call -- the

13 identity of the reporting party, do you have an opinion

14 as to whether or not that's something that should have

11:42 15 been revealed to them?

16 A You don't reveal who the person called. You

17 know, you have -- when you get a call, if you need more

18 explanation, you ask communications to either give you

19 the number or ask communications to call and ask for

11:42 20 further information. I mean, you don't give that

21 information, Tim Williams called and says so-and-so.

22 Now you're putting me in danger. You don't do that.

23 You say you received the call and what the call stated.

24 As an officer -- which I've done many times

11:42 25 in the detective realm as well as in patrol -- if I

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1 need clarification on that call, I ask communications

2 to call or I say, give me the number, and I will call,

3 and then we'll get some clarification on the whole

4 situation. That was not done.

11:43 5 Q Did you see in the file that there was

6 evidence that Mr. Bondaug asked Officer Deger who made

7 the call?

8 A Yeah. Yeah. I saw that.

9 Q Do you believe that Officer Deger should have

11:43 10 identified the reporting party as the neighbor over

11 here or Mr. Garcia? Should Deger have identified the

12 reporting party in any way?

13 A No.

14 Q And I know you said this a couple times, and

11:43 15 I'm not trying to be difficult.

16 But the additional specificity that you think

17 should have been given by Deger was, I heard someone

18 say, get in the house, bitch, because that would have

19 tipped -- that would have allowed the females to

11:44 20 explain that this was really a benign event?

21 A That's correct. And even the plaintiff could

22 have stated -- because he was there when the whole

23 situation happened. He could have stated it was a

24 benign event as well and explained what he was doing.

11:44 25 Q But you don't fault Officer Deger for not --

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1 it would have been okay, in your mind, for

2 Officer Deger to wait until he had the opportunity to

3 talk to each female separately before leaving the

4 residence; true?

11:44 5 A That's what he should have done, yes.

6 Q Okay. So he's not required -- you know, he

7 should -- I know we're going to argue about the facts

8 at trial. But let's assume this scenario:

9 Mr. Bondaug -- the door is opened, and Mr. Bondaug is

11:44 10 there. Officer Deger says, hey, did anything happen

11 here. The females all jointly say, no, nothing wrong

12 happened here.

13 You don't -- you don't think that

14 Officer Deger should have left at that point -- or to

11:45 15 put it another way, you don't fault him for not leaving

16 under those circumstances?

17 MR. USOZ: Objection. Incomplete hypothetical.

18 THE WITNESS: No. In your hypothetical, you're

19 trained -- especially in the area of domestic violence,

11:45 20 you'll get some responses saying that nothing has

21 happened here. But if you broaden your approach and

22 say -- in this particular case, if you're specific as

23 to why I'm here and these are the reasons why I'm here,

24 and they say, oh, yeah, we did that. I'd say, well,

11:45 25 okay, fine, I want you to come and talk to me first.

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1 And then out of earshot of everybody else, you get the

2 story, go back in, now the other person comes out.

3 The reason why you're doing that, because no

4 one can doctor up a story or a set of facts because now

11:45 5 you have separated everyone and everyone has given

6 their unmolested, unvarnished statement.

7 And you'll find -- the only two people you

8 needed to talk to was Sandra and Tatiana because

9 Daniela wasn't out there during that time. And also to

11:46 10 the plaintiff. You'll find that there's commonality in

11 that story.

12 BY MR. HEABERLIN:

13 Q In your experience with domestic violence,

14 did you find or do you find that victims or potential

11:46 15 victims of domestic violence sometimes lie to protect

16 themselves or the assailant?

17 A That's true.

18 Q In your experience, do the perpetrators of

19 domestic violence oftentimes -- or sometimes interject

11:46 20 themselves in a discussion between the officers and the

21 potential victim in order to either interfere, achieve

22 some level of control of the situation or some other

23 reason?

24 A Yeah. But as an officer, you control the

11:46 25 situation. You don't let the situation control you.

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1 And you separate them. He had personnel coming. The

2 domestic violence calls, you normally have two people

3 assigned to that call. Stewart was assigned to that

4 call as well, from my reviewing of the documents. You

11:47 5 wait until that person comes there, you approach the

6 threshold together, and then you divvy up the task.

7 Q Did you see any evidence in any of your

8 review of the file materials that Mr. Bondaug impeded

9 or interrupted Deger's attempts to talk to the females

11:47 10 about what had happened there?

11 MR. USOZ: I'm going to object.

12 Are you asking did he come to a conclusion as

13 to that question, or are you asking did he see anything

14 in writing -- I thought we were going to his

11:47 15 conclusions. That's why I'm not quite sure what the

16 question is.

17 MR. HEABERLIN: That's a fair point.

18 MR. USOZ: Does he have an opinion? Is that what

19 you're asking?

11:48 20 MR. HEABERLIN: Let me ask that. He did it much

21 more articulately than me.

22 BY MR. HEABERLIN:

23 Q Do you have an opinion as to whether or not

24 Mr. Bondaug interfered with Deger's ability to

11:48 25 interview the females?

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1 A I don't think so. Deger asked Bondaug to

2 come out on the porch, and I think there was a

3 discussion back and forth between Deger and Bondaug as

4 to, you know, why is he here, what's been done, and we

11:48 5 already told you nothing has been done.

6 I would have handled it a little bit

7 differently. I would have asked the mother, look, I'm

8 going to come talk to you, and she would have probably

9 voluntarily came out. She was very amenable during

11:48 10 that time. Say, this is why I'm here. This is the

11 situation. I wasn't in the front yard. No one --

12 nobody went into the backyard. So in that case, you

13 may have the wrong area. Okay. That's great. I need

14 to talk to the three other people in there, and then

11:48 15 I'm gone.

16 Then she would have said, Gary, come out here

17 and talk to this police officer. Then Gary would have

18 come out, and then he would have told -- tell the

19 officer what had transpired, and you find out that he

11:49 20 didn't go in the backyard.

21 And let me talk to his girlfriend. Sandra

22 would have come on out and said the very same thing,

23 and then Tatiana would come out and say, yeah, they

24 were out there horsing around. Sandra says they both

11:49 25 have loud voices; so at night, things carry, especially

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1 when things are quiet in the cul-du-sac. You may think

2 you may hear something one place, but sound does

3 strange things. It would have been about a five- to

4 ten-minute max presentation, and then Deger would have

11:49 5 been gone.

6 Q Your opinion is that Deger should have waited

7 for Stewart to arrive?

8 A Well, yeah. In a domestic violence call, you

9 wait. There's nothing emergent. There was no

11:49 10 life-or-death situation that was going on. All you

11 hear was a possible, get your ass inside, bitch,

12 something like that. I don't know if I want to go in

13 there by myself. I'm going to wait. You've got to

14 have a backup, then we'll go ahead and deal with this

11:50 15 thing.

16 Q "Get in the house, bitch. I'm going to teach

17 you a lesson" is not enough of an imminent -- a

18 situation for an officer to immediately start his

19 investigation?

11:50 20 A It's enough for an officer to wait for a

21 backup before he goes in there. They don't pay you to

22 be stupid and make unsound judgment. You go in there,

23 you announce with the backup.

24 Q Are officers required under standard domestic

11:50 25 violence protocol to wait for that second officer, or

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1 do they have some discretion if they think there's some

2 level of imminency to take action?

3 A Well, if there's an imminent threat and you

4 perceive an imminent threat, life-and-death situation,

11:50 5 then yes, you respond. In my opinion, having dealt

6 with hundreds of these types of calls, this wasn't a

7 situation that was imminent.

8 Q Okay. We've probably fleshed out Opinion

9 Number 1. Anything else that we should talk about on

11:51 10 Opinion Number 1?

11 A I think that's pretty much it. Again, if he

12 had approached the call properly, I wouldn't be talking

13 about 2 through 11.

14 Q Okay. Let's go to 2.

11:51 15 A I'm going right into the use of force,

16 Deger's use of force.

17 Q Got it.

18 A In my opinion, his striking the baton on his

19 legs -- and again, there's variations on that same

11:51 20 theme from the witnesses who observed it. In my

21 opinion, it was objectively unreasonable and excessive

22 force. He didn't have to strike the plaintiff on the

23 leg with the baton at all or strike him, period, with

24 the baton at all. There's other ways of doing that.

11:52 25 You can talk about the situation.

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1 He was trying to tell him -- you read the

2 officer's response that he was telling him to get down

3 on the ground. You don't beat someone into compliance.

4 That's not how you're trained to do. If that, in fact,

11:52 5 was what he was stating.

6 Then again, you hear from Sandra, Tatiana and

7 Daniela that those commands were not given. Basically,

8 he asked him to come out, he came out, and he says --

9 apparently, Deger told the mother --

11:52 10 "What are you arresting him for?"

11 "I'm arresting him for being drunk in

12 public."

13 And allegedly he reached out, and then

14 allegedly the plaintiff stepped back or to the side,

11:52 15 and then the baton comes out, and he starts wailing

16 away.

17 Number one, based upon the fact that Deger

18 tells the mother and those inside that he's being

19 arrested for being drunk in public, how in the heck can

11:53 20 you be drunk in public when the officer asked you to

21 come outside? You can be laying down drunk. You do

22 what you're doing in your domicile is fine as long as

23 you're not doing it in public. When he comes out, the

24 officer can't instruct a person to break the law, then

11:53 25 turn around and arrest him. That's not how you're

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1 trained.

2 But the thing is that barring that, the use

3 of the excessive force was unreasonable.

4 Q And you're specifically talking about the

11:53 5 baton strikes?

6 A Exactly. That's where I'm at right now, just

7 the baton strikes.

8 Q Let's back up.

9 You saw in Officer Deger's report that he

11:53 10 said that Mr. Bondaug grabbed him -- Mr. Bondaug used

11 his left hand to grab Deger's forearm.

12 A I remember reading that.

13 Q Do you have an opinion as to whether or not

14 that's a true statement or not?

11:54 15 A That's his statement. That's not the

16 statement of the three other witnesses who saw that.

17 It was never observed by the other three. And reading

18 his mother's testimony, deposition, she ain't going to

19 lie for him. I got the impression she's a straight

11:54 20 shooter. And I didn't get that impression that, in

21 fact -- plaintiff, in fact, grabbed Deger's arm.

22 Q If he had, if Mr. Bondaug had grabbed Deger's

23 right forearm, do you have an opinion whether or not

24 Deger was justified in using the fist strike to the

11:54 25 chest to get Mr. Bondaug to release his grip?

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1 A No. You're trained how to get away from a

2 grab. Again, you're not trained to punch. I'm going

3 to talk about that a little bit later, in fact, my next

4 point. There's no law enforcement agency that teaches

11:55 5 you to punch a suspect. If you're in throes for life

6 and death, anything and everything goes. But here,

7 you're not taught that. Punching to the chest and to

8 the body, again, was, in my opinion, excessive force,

9 objectively unreasonable.

11:55 10 Q So police agencies don't teach their officers

11 to use fist strikes in the use-of-force continuum?

12 A They teach them to use distraction strikes

13 with the palm of the hand, but not the fist. The thing

14 is that there is -- no City attorney or County counsel

11:55 15 is going to approve that policy because it's a

16 liability issue. When you strike somebody with your

17 fist, bone against bone, something is going to give.

18 Then you have an officer that's out for three or four

19 months.

11:56 20 That's not the way you're trained. You're

21 trained to use distraction strikes, and even the policy

22 itself states, you know, the hand. It didn't say

23 anything about the fist. And I can give you the quote

24 of that manual section, if you want.

11:56 25 Q Sure.

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1 A Okay. I'm dealing with the use of force, and

2 there's talking -- 1.5.2 in that policy manual. It is

3 Santa Clara Police Department General Order 1.5. It

4 talks about an employee striking a subject with their

11:57 5 hand or any object, where you have to document that

6 force. It doesn't say anything about utilizing a fist.

7 I've trained with Santa Clara Police

8 Department supervisors when I went to supervisory

9 leadership institute out of POST as well as West Point

11:57 10 leadership institute. And we talked about these

11 things, you know, as issues of liability to the agency,

12 Santa Clara being one, that they don't teach their

13 personnel to use fist strikes.

14 Q You think there's a difference between any

11:57 15 employee striking a subject with their hand and a fist?

16 A That's right.

17 Q What is a hand strike?

18 A A hand strike is an open hand strike. If

19 you've had any exposure to martial arts, there's a hand

11:57 20 strike, and there's a fist strike. There's a very

21 clear distinction between the two.

22 You won't find in any manual -- or any manual

23 that I've seen, and I've seen quite a few throughout

24 the country -- where it's going to authorize striking

11:58 25 with a fist.

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1 Q How should -- and I know you dispute the

2 factual predicate, but assuming Mr. Bondaug grabbed

3 Deger's arm, how should have Deger reacted?

4 MR. USOZ: Objection. Incomplete hypothetical.

11:58 5 THE WITNESS: Pull away, if that hypothetical

6 was, in fact, correct, the facts of this case.

7 BY MR. HEABERLIN:

8 Q What interim levels of force, if any, do you

9 think Deger should have used prior to the leg strikes?

11:58 10 MR. USOZ: Objection again. Under what set of

11 circumstances? The plaintiff grabbing Deger's arm or

12 Deger trying to grab the plaintiff's arm or as the

13 reports say? I'm not clear on that.

14 BY MR. HEABERLIN:

11:59 15 Q Well, your opinion that the leg strike -- the

16 baton strikes to the leg were excessive is based on the

17 assumption that there was never a grab by Bondaug to

18 Deger; true?

19 A Well, if there was a grab by Bondaug to

11:59 20 Deger, in my opinion, it didn't -- it wouldn't warrant

21 a leg strike -- baton strike to the legs. Obviously,

22 he got away. He pulled back because he pulled the

23 baton out, and he whacked him with the baton on his

24 legs. I'm sure he wasn't being held when he was

12:00 25 beating him. The report doesn't say that.

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1 Q Do you have an opinion as to whether Deger is

2 being accurate -- Deger is being truthful when he says

3 "I ordered him to get to the ground before using the

4 baton strikes"?

12:00 5 A Well, you know, you have variations of this

6 theme on this, and that's for the trier of fact to make

7 that determination.

8 My opinion is that, based on the totality of

9 everything I've read, there was no justification for

12:00 10 Deger to be striking the plaintiff with that baton.

11 Q Do you have an opinion as to whether it was

12 appropriate for Deger to order the plaintiff to the

13 ground?

14 A For what? What are you ordering him to the

12:00 15 ground for?

16 Q Okay. So no?

17 A No.

18 MR. USOZ: No, you don't have an opinion, or no,

19 it wasn't reasonable?

12:00 20 THE WITNESS: It wasn't reasonable.

21 MR. USOZ: Thank you. I wanted to clarify that.

22 THE WITNESS: It was not reasonable.

23 BY MR. HEABERLIN:

24 Q And do you have an understanding as to

12:01 25 whether Deger was using an asp or another type of

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1 baton?

2 A Asp. One of those batons you flick out and

3 it extends.

4 Q Did you ever use an asp in your --

12:01 5 A No. I used a wooden baton.

6 Q Okay. Anything else on Opinion Number 2?

7 A I talked about Opinion 2 and 3 simultaneously

8 because of the punching.

9 Q Okay.

12:01 10 A The punching -- there was two sets of

11 punching. Allegedly, when he was standing, he punched

12 him in the upper body. In my opinion, that was

13 objectively unreasonable and excessive force. Then

14 when he was on the ground, punched him three to five

12:02 15 times. In my opinion, that was objectively

16 unreasonable and excessive force.

17 Q Why was it objectively unreasonable for Deger

18 to employ the three to five fist strikes on the ground?

19 A Why are you punching him? What is he doing

12:02 20 to punch? It's beyond me to see the resistance here.

21 He's sitting on a porch, and they're going back and

22 forth. All of a sudden, the allegation is that the

23 plaintiff grabs Deger's forearm and then the fight is

24 on. I'm trying to figure out why the fight had to

12:02 25 begin to begin with. Do you understand what I'm

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1 saying? The thing is that the strikes, taking to the

2 ground and all the body punches, in my opinion, it

3 shouldn't have happened.

4 Q If -- do you have an opinion as to whether

12:02 5 the officers ordered -- while they were on the ground,

6 whether they ordered Mr. Bondaug to produce his hands?

7 A According to the report, that's what they're

8 saying. But when he fell, he fell face first and his

9 hands were under him. If you're going to fall, your

12:03 10 first response is to break your fall. I don't care who

11 is on you. To break your fall. When you get down,

12 guess where your hands are going to be? They're going

13 to be under you. If there's weight on you, how are you

14 going to get your hands out from underneath you if

12:03 15 there's weight on you?

16 Q If an officer at that point orders somebody

17 to produce their hands and they don't, is an officer

18 entitled to use an escalated level of force?

19 A No. You're entitled to use that force which

12:03 20 is necessary. If I'm telling you to get your hands out

21 from underneath you, and there's myself and about four

22 or five other -- I'm saying based on my hypothetical --

23 if there's four or five other people on top of you,

24 there's no way in hell you're going to be able to get

12:04 25 your hands out from underneath you without somebody

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1 getting off you so that you can do that.

2 The thing is, you've got to be reasonable in

3 your requests and allow the commands to be executed in

4 a reasonable manner. If a person can't do it, then,

12:04 5 you know, how can you say that he's -- that he or she

6 is not adhering to the commands that are given.

7 Q Let me give you a hypothetical. The

8 police -- two officers are on the ground with a

9 subject. They order him to produce his hands. Several

12:04 10 seconds go by. He doesn't. Is there any circumstance

11 in which you would accept a fist strike as being the

12 next reasonable option?

13 MR. USOZ: Objection. Incomplete hypothetical.

14 THE WITNESS: My answer is based upon my time in

12:05 15 the field and having done this type of stuff. I would

16 have told my partner, hold that one side down, I'm

17 going to try to get his right arm or right hand,

18 depending on which side of the body I'm on, out from

19 under him or her. When I get it out, I'm going to put

12:05 20 it in a wrist lock, and I want you to get the other arm

21 out, and we'll get him handcuffed.

22 There's ways of doing this, and I've done it

23 hundreds of times, without beating anybody. I don't

24 get the mindset, why you have to punch him. If the

12:05 25 person -- if you need to get the arm up, get it out.

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1 If you need to pull him up on one side where the other

2 person is controlling the other arm, then you do so.

3 I've done it many times.

4 BY MR. HEABERLIN:

12:06 5 Q Have you ever been in a situation during your

6 police career where you're on the ground with somebody

7 trying to handcuff them and it turns out they're armed?

8 Did that ever occur to you? Knife, gun, anything?

9 A I've had several people that have had guns,

12:06 10 but I'm not on the ground fighting with them when they

11 have their guns.

12 You're always aware of that. Your mindset is

13 on that, and you want to control that, and you don't

14 know what they have until you search them. So, again,

12:06 15 you try to control it. And again, I've never punched

16 anybody or none of my partners have ever punched

17 anybody to get them to render their hands from

18 underneath their body.

19 Q Okay. We may get -- let me bring up this

12:06 20 issue now.

21 Do you think alcohol played any role in the

22 events that occurred that evening?

23 A I don't have that area of expertise as to

24 what alcohol would do to the plaintiff and, you know,

12:07 25 I'm not going to answer that question.

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1 Q In your police career, did you encounter

2 circumstances where people acted more erratic or

3 violently while they were under the influence of

4 alcohol?

12:07 5 A Alcohol treats people differently. Some

6 people get very aggressive; some people get very

7 mellow. It just depends on the individual.

8 Q Okay. What's the fourth opinion?

9 A Fourth opinion was while he was on the

12:07 10 ground, and he was punching him. We talked about that.

11 Q Sorry. Let me just make sure.

12 What was the difference between the third and

13 the fourth opinions?

14 A The third opinion, he was standing. The

12:07 15 fourth opinion, he was on the ground.

16 Q Okay.

17 A Now we're talking about Colin Stewart. The

18 punching of -- Colin Stewart punching the plaintiff in

19 the face, in my opinion, was objectively unreasonable

12:07 20 and excessive force.

21 In Colin's deposition, he stated that the

22 punch was in policy. Well, the policy doesn't stated

23 that the punch was in policy. In my opinion, based

24 upon what I read into the record, that punch to the

12:08 25 face was out of policy, objectively unreasonable and

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1 excessive force.

2 Q Because it doesn't say "fist"?

3 A It says "hand."

4 Q Okay.

12:08 5 A And I've testified, and I'll repeat it again.

6 No law enforcement agency teaches you to punch. I

7 guess in the throes of life and death, then all bets

8 are off. But you're taught with the hand strikes. And

9 again, as I stated before, no City counsel -- no County

12:08 10 counsel or City attorney is going to allow something

11 that's going to be a risk management issue to be in the

12 policies.

13 Q Any other reasons, other than your opinion it

14 was out of policy, that Stewart's punch was excessive?

12:09 15 A There was no need for it. He comes in there,

16 and he comes up, and he just wails on him. In my

17 opinion, it was objectively unreasonable and excessive

18 force.

19 Q Now, when an officer encounters a situation

12:09 20 where they see their fellow officer engaged in a

21 struggle with a suspect, can Officer 2 arriving on the

22 scene immediately go to the aid of Officer Number 1?

23 A Of course.

24 Q Okay. They don't have to ask what's going on

12:09 25 and interview people before they themselves can take it

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1 upon themselves to come to the aid of Officer Number 1?

2 MR. USOZ: Objection.

3 THE WITNESS: They assist to control the

4 situation. Then once the situation is under control,

12:10 5 figure out what's going on.

6 BY MR. HEABERLIN:

7 Q Okay. Next opinion.

8 A I think we dealt with all that. And I did

9 talk about the 647. Now I'm going to get into the

12:10 10 11550 issue.

11 Q The 647(f) --

12 A I talked about that earlier.

13 Q That was -- Deger sort of entrapped him by

14 asking him to come out of the house?

12:10 15 A It's kind of interesting. If you see Colin

16 Stewart's pictures of his injuries he received, on the

17 tape that they used, it says 148/647(f) or 647(f)/148.

18 So somebody must have told him at some point in time,

19 you ain't got no 647(f). But they were going that

12:11 20 direction, from the photos that I've seen.

21 Q So I'm sorry. I missed you.

22 The photos have some mention of 647(f)?

23 A It does.

24 MR. HEABERLIN: Where are those.

12:11 25 MR. USOZ: You produced them in document

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1 production to us, photos of the officers' injuries.

2 THE WITNESS: Colin, more specifically.

3 (Off the record.)

4 BY MR. HEABERLIN:

12:15 5 Q I have Opinion Number 6. Maybe that was the

6 647(f).

7 A You were looking for a photo.

8 Q I found the photo.

9 So you're surmising, from the photograph,

12:15 10 that someone at some point had a suspicion of 647(f) --

11 A No. No. I'm surmising, from everything that

12 I've read, which was confirmed by that photograph, that

13 when they asked him to come out and he complied and

14 alleged he had been drinking, they were going to arrest

12:16 15 him for 647(f), as evidenced by the photograph there.

16 I assume you're looking at Colin Stewart; right?

17 Q I think so.

18 MR. USOZ: There's actually two.

19 BY MR. HEABERLIN:

12:16 20 Q Okay.

21 A So it's my opinion that someone must have

22 instructed him at the supervisor level or even at his

23 peer level that you can't arrest him for 647; you've

24 got to find something else. That's my opinion.

12:16 25 Q Okay. All right. Opinion Number 7.

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1 A 6.

2 Q 6?

3 A Yeah. 647(f), I talked about that earlier.

4 11550 evaluation.

12:17 5 Q Okay.

6 A And I'm looking at Lauren Eldridge's report.

7 I'm going to Volume 2. Supplemental Report,

8 Santa Clara Police Department where this is talked

9 about again, and Eldridge authored this report.

12:17 10 I don't know how she came about all these

11 findings. The hospital -- I was reading the hospital's

12 findings and then her findings. She said his skin was

13 clammy and says the skin was warm and cotton mouthed,

14 and he says that he was -- dry mouthed and, you know,

12:18 15 that's probably one and the same, if you want to go

16 that direction.

17 But all these pupil measurements -- one was

18 done at the scene. There's no written documentation of

19 that at all in any of the reports that I've read. And

12:18 20 then there is a -- there's pupil evaluation while he

21 was in the emergency room. Again, there was no written

22 documentation on that as well.

23 So I don't know where this is coming from.

24 And I don't know -- it sounds like the doctor or the

12:18 25 nurse was doing their evaluation, and she was doing her

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1 evaluations, and the two didn't reconcile. It just

2 didn't fit.

3 Then you look at her deposition, and you come

4 to find out that she's not -- she only has narcotics

12:19 5 training when she went to the academy. She didn't know

6 what a DRE was. So I have problems with these

7 findings.

8 I'm thinking -- and again, you know, there

9 was some cell phone use, talked about going back and

12:19 10 forth, some text messaging going back and forth, which

11 everyone has denied. And I don't know if it's

12 subsequently going to come out later or not, but I

13 believe she was instructed to find something.

14 And again, there was no documentation on

12:19 15 that. She has no background or training to come up

16 with these findings, and I find them very suspicious.

17 Q Okay. Backing up a little bit, there is, in

18 the 11550 supplemental report, written documentation

19 that the pupils were checked at Wilson Court. Your

12:20 20 point is that's not found in her supplemental police

21 report?

22 A Correct.

23 MR. USOZ: Objection. I think that misconstrues

24 what he testified to. I believe I heard Mr. Williams

12:20 25 say that there was no documentation anywhere that it

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1 was checked at Wilson Court by any cops.

2 THE WITNESS: That's what I stated.

3 MR. HEABERLIN: Other than --

4 THE WITNESS: This is a standalone document, not

12:20 5 a report.

6 BY MR. HEABERLIN:

7 Q What is a DRE?

8 A Drug recognition expert.

9 Q How does one become a DRE?

12:20 10 A I don't know. I'm not a DRE. I've never

11 went to DRE training. But I know they go through a

12 specified number of hours of training. They have to

13 test, be certified to become drug recognition experts.

14 Q You never did that?

12:20 15 A No.

16 Q Did you ever make an 11550 arrest?

17 A I made a whole bunch of dope arrests when I

18 worked in narcotics, but I was not a drug recognition

19 expert. I didn't go to the drug recognition expert

12:21 20 school or anything of that nature. My goal was not to

21 make a career of narcotics. I was going to do my time

22 and get out.

23 Q Fair enough. Can you answer the question.

24 Did you ever make a --

12:21 25 A 11550, I'm sure I have.

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1 Q How many?

2 A I don't know. I didn't do no pupil reading.

3 I didn't do any of that stuff. I stayed in my area of

4 expertise.

12:21 5 Q Okay. What specific findings in

6 Officer Eldridge's report did you find inconsistent

7 with the doctor's report or evidence from the medical

8 staff at VMC?

9 A I didn't read any of that in the medical

12:21 10 reports. If there was evidence, they would have

11 documented it. I've seen too many -- I've read too

12 many medical reports to know that if there was

13 something as relates to central nervous stimulant the

14 person had taken, they would have documented that in

12:22 15 their reports.

16 Q Okay. And you believe that Officer Eldridge

17 was told to do an 11550 screening?

18 A Just based on my background, education and

19 experience, I know how officers work. That's my

12:22 20 opinion. Again, I would need to look at text

21 messaging. I would need to look at calls that were

22 made during that time to the officers to confirm my

23 opinion on that. But again, this doesn't make sense

24 with what I'm reading here from these supplemental

12:22 25 reports and these crime reports.

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1 Q Okay. And the reason you think she was --

2 let's go through all the reasons you think -- let's

3 just be blunt about it. You think this is trumped up.

4 One is you are concerned about the absence of text

12:23 5 messages and the like, cell phones, CAD and the like.

6 Two is there's nothing verifying in the medical records

7 what Officer Eldridge documented.

8 Anything else?

9 A I would expect -- in fact, I would be looking

12:23 10 for a confirmation from the medical team. These are

11 doctors, MDs, nurses, there may be nurse practitioners

12 that are trained in this area. Then he or she comes

13 with this reporting of specific -- she must have a

14 pupil meter and holding it up to his eyes and reading

12:23 15 it and doing all this other stuff, which was never

16 documented anywhere in the discovery that I've read.

17 Q And you saw that he declined the blood test?

18 Are you aware that at the hospital, he was offered to

19 have a blood test?

12:23 20 A Yes, I'm aware of it. It had nothing to do

21 with this, though.

22 Q Did you listen to the audio exchanged with

23 him and the officers at the hospital?

24 A I did.

12:24 25 Q You've seen the hair follicle test?

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1 A I did.

2 Q Are you a toxicology expert?

3 A I'm not.

4 Q Do you have an opinion -- and maybe you

12:24 5 don't -- as to whether hair follicle tests are valid

6 when taken at the point in time this one was taken?

7 A I don't know. You'd have to talk to a

8 pharmacologist and a person that deals with that area.

9 I don't have an opinion one way or the other.

12:24 10 Q Okay. What do we have next?

11 A The incident recall, I had some concerns

12 about that. Let me see if I can find it, number one.

13 Yeah. This is 37 in my Volume 2, Section 37. I was

14 looking -- and this is the -- you call it the CAD

12:25 15 printout. The incident recall. And these are the --

16 this delineates the times the officers received the

17 call, when they were en route, and when they arrived.

18 It's kind of interesting to see that Nelson

19 was the first one to arrive on scene. And the second

12:25 20 person to arrive on the scene was Deger. And it

21 doesn't show Stewart arriving on the scene at all.

22 So the thing is that, you know, I'm looking

23 at this, and looking at, you know -- which is not

24 consistent with what I'm reading. There's some

12:25 25 inconsistencies here without explanation.

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1 Q Do you know how those en route and arrival --

2 do you know how those get to the CAD? Like, is it

3 something that's automatic -- okay. You're pushing a

4 button.

12:26 5 A En route is when you get the call. I'm

6 en route. When I arrive -- in the old days, you say

7 I'm code 6 or whatever the nomenclature is there in

8 Northern California, but they're arriving at the scene.

9 You push a button, and you arrive at the scene.

12:26 10 The first person to arrive is Nelson. Deger

11 is the second person that arrives. So the thing is

12 that, you know, those are questions that have not been

13 asked, but should warrant some answers.

14 Q Okay. What's next?

12:26 15 A The eighth thing is the witnesses -- when I

16 say "witnesses," Daniela, Sandra and Tatiana -- their

17 reports -- their statements basically are in conflict

18 with the officers' reports.

19 Q Okay.

12:27 20 A What is unique is specifically Daniela, she

21 was -- allegedly, she was interviewed by one of the

22 officers. I'm thinking it may have been Nelson. I'm

23 not too sure. I'd have to look at the reports to be

24 sure. She stated in her deposition that no one talked

12:27 25 with her. No one.

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1 So, you know, people are -- you know, reports

2 are saying one thing, and the witnesses are saying

3 something else. To me, that's problematic. There is a

4 conflict there, and the triers of fact will have to

12:27 5 look at that in total. But to me, it's a problem.

6 Q Okay. What's next?

7 A Supervisor's approach to this use of force.

8 It was out of policy. I have looked at all of the

9 discovery that I've received. And according to the

12:28 10 policies and procedures of Santa Clara Police

11 Department, it states that use of force -- the

12 supervisor is supposed to make a copy, supposed to put

13 a use-of-force stamp on it. The supervisor initials

14 it, and the watch commander initials it, and it goes up

12:28 15 the chain.

16 If the use of force is out of policy, they

17 will still initial the use-of-force box, but they will

18 also develop -- write a memo. The supervisor will

19 write a memo, the watch commander will write a memo,

12:28 20 and it will go up the chain of command for review.

21 I didn't see any of that stuff done. Unless

22 it's produced for my review, my opinion is that the

23 supervisor reports on this was out of policy and that

24 there were certain policies and procedures that should

12:29 25 have been adhered to that were not adhered to.

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1 Q Sorry. You lost me.

2 You suspect there is a use-of-force stamp

3 that went up the chain of command that hasn't been

4 produced?

12:29 5 A No, I don't suspect. Let me read the policy

6 so you can put it in the record.

7 Q Okay.

8 A I'm reading 1.5.3, dealing with review of

9 force reports. It says here, "In all use of force

12:29 10 incidents, the supervisor shall make a copy of the

11 report, stamp the copy using the use-of-force stamp,

12 and forward the stamped report to the watch commander.

13 After review, the watch commander shall forward the

14 report to the division commander.

12:30 15 In events where the use of force appears to

16 be consistent with department policy, the supervisor

17 and watch commander shall initial the stamped copy.

18 Their initials will indicate that the use of force has

19 been reviewed and appears to be consistent with

12:30 20 department policy.

21 In events where the use of force appears to

22 be inconsistent with department policy, the supervisor

23 and watch commander will prepare a memo for the

24 division commander. The memo will include an analysis

12:30 25 of the incident and recommendation for further

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1 investigation. Copies of all associated reports will

2 be attached to the memo."

3 Now, this is not you should do this. Not you

4 may do it. It's you shall do that. I didn't see none

12:30 5 of this shall stuff in the discovery that I received.

6 Unless I received it, I'm taking the assumption that it

7 wasn't done and that the department was out of policy

8 in this particular instance.

9 Q Okay. What's next?

12:31 10 A The tenth one, there's no photos taken at the

11 crime scene. This was a use of force, and there should

12 have been crime scene photos taken by the police

13 department at the crime -- at conclusion of this

14 incident.

12:31 15 It's important to do the investigation.

16 You've got to know what was on the porch. You hear

17 some things of the deposition about the porch was

18 cluttered, there was a table or chairs on the porch.

19 Unless this stuff is memorialized, there's no way you

12:31 20 can corroborate any of this stuff. And basic

21 investigative tenets tells you that you need to take

22 photographs of the scene of a use-of-force incident.

23 Q Okay. Next.

24 A Last one. We already talked about the

12:32 25 647(f), the Stewart photo. So that would be it, in my

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1 findings.

2 Q Okay. Going back to the last one about

3 taking photographs of the scene, did you see

4 indications in the file that Ms. Alfaro, for example,

12:32 5 was highly upset, even threatened to sue the officers?

6 Did you see that?

7 A I think I remember reading something to that

8 extent.

9 Q If we assume that occurred, do you think the

12:32 10 officers still should have stayed and taken photographs

11 of the scene?

12 A Supervisor should have made sure that was

13 done.

14 Q Okay. All right. I'm trying to get us done

12:32 15 dunce here in the next 10 or 15 minutes so we can be

16 under two hours.

17 Did you find any Santa Clara police policy

18 provisions that you found were wrong, out of keeping

19 with norms, anything like that?

12:33 20 A The policies were in policy as it relates to

21 other agencies and everything else. I had no problem

22 with the policies.

23 Q What I'd like to do now is tick off all of

24 the violations that you found or you're opining on with

12:33 25 regard to the policy. One is what we just talked

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1 about, the supervisor's use-of-force stamp issue. The

2 use of closed fists.

3 Any other violations of policy that you saw?

4 A I think I pretty much covered it.

12:33 5 Q There's been an issue raised in this case

6 about Penal Code Section 148.

7 Do officers -- is it custom and practice for

8 police officers to always have a secondary charge

9 associated with a 148?

12:34 10 A No.

11 Q Can an officer arrest someone for just 148

12 alone?

13 A Yeah.

14 Q What is -- can you tell me something -- I

12:34 15 know this is probably going to be a limitless question.

16 But can you give me just some examples from your own

17 police career of actions that led you believe that

18 someone had violated 148, Subsection (a)(1).

19 A Well, basically where a person's actions will

12:34 20 stop you from conducting your investigation. It could

21 be a whole lot of different things. It could be a

22 person causing a crowd to gather. It could be, you

23 know, not allowing you to do the things you need to do

24 to conduct an investigation so that you can figure out

12:35 25 what's going on.

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1 And 148, in my opinion, is a tool that the

2 police will eventually lose because they have used it

3 in such a reckless manner that until maybe one day some

4 legislator will have a light come on and say, well,

12:35 5 maybe we can find another piece of legislation that

6 will be more effective than the 148.

7 But again, I've seen it used properly; I've

8 seen it used improperly. In this particular case, I

9 think it was used improperly.

12:35 10 Q Someone can violate Penal Code Section 148

11 without actually physically contacting a police

12 officer; true?

13 A I believe so, yes.

14 Q And that can be for something like -- well,

12:35 15 give me some examples of that.

16 A Mouth -- you know, causing a person not to be

17 available. You know, it can be a whole bunch of

18 different things where it's not a -- rises to the level

19 of a felony, but it rises to the level where an officer

12:36 20 cannot do his or her job to conduct the investigation

21 at the scene.

22 Q So in certain circumstances, someone using

23 their mouth can, in and of itself, be enough for a 148?

24 A If it interferes. A person that's talking is

12:36 25 not a 148. If it interferes with them doing their job,

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1 that's a whole different animal.

2 Q Are police officers taught that there must be

3 some threshold level of interference before it's 148?

4 A They're taught that if it impedes you from

12:36 5 conducting your investigation, then you can consider it

6 a 148. And again, you have to look at it in its

7 totality. People talking, mouthing off, cursing you,

8 you know, if it's not stopping you from doing what you

9 need to do, it's just what it is.

12:37 10 Q Okay. Do you have any opinion about the

11 propriety of the officers employing the WRAP device?

12 A I'm not familiar with the WRAP device. I'm

13 familiar with the Hobble. The WRAP is a new procedure,

14 but it's used to -- the same thing, to control the

12:37 15 person, to control their legs.

16 Q In this case, do you have an opinion one way

17 or another whether or not the use of the WRAP device

18 was proper or not?

19 A It should never have gotten to that point.

12:37 20 Number one, the use of force, it should never have

21 gotten to the point where the use of force was

22 implemented, and it should never have gotten to the

23 point where the WRAP was in place. I mean, the whole

24 thing was out of control, as far as I'm concerned.

12:38 25 Q Do you concede that Mr. Bondaug played any

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1 part in the officers ultimately needing to use a WRAP?

2 A It's hard to say. When he left the front

3 porch area, there was no witnesses other than the

4 officers' story as to what happened. And again, based

12:38 5 upon what I've read thus far, the inconsistencies --

6 and, in my opinion, that the WRAP should not have been

7 deployed as well.

8 Q Okay. Are there any other opinions that

9 you've reached in this case or that you plan to present

12:38 10 in a trial setting?

11 A Depends on what questions you ask me at

12 trial.

13 Q Good answer. But other than -- with that

14 proviso --

12:38 15 A I always say I put a comma as to my findings.

16 It always happens, during the course of the trial,

17 something else comes up. And I exercise the right to

18 enhance my findings as those questions come up.

19 Q We can certainly litigate that issue later.

12:39 20 Okay. My expert's name is Robert Fonzi. Do

21 you know him?

22 A I've gone up against him a couple times, yes.

23 Q Do you have any opinions about him, positive,

24 negative, neutral?

12:39 25 MR. USOZ: Objection. Irrelevant.

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1 MR. HEABERLIN: Sometimes they come and do that.

2 THE WITNESS: He may have an opinion about me,

3 but I have no opinion about him.

4 MR. HEABERLIN: Are you going to have anything?

12:39 5 MR. USOZ: Two questions.

6 MR. HEABERLIN: Go ahead.

7

8 EXAMINATION

9 BY MR. USOZ:

12:39 10 Q Mr. Williams, have you reviewed Mr. York's

11 photos of the scene?

12 A I have.

13 Q And have you been asked to give any opinion

14 by plaintiff as to the advantage entailing those

12:40 15 photographs?

16 A Well, the only thing, from my review of the

17 photographs, is that you can't see the front porch

18 until you're almost there.

19 Q Okay. But that's not an expert opinion;

12:40 20 that's just you looking at the photos?

21 A Looking at the photos.

22 MR. USOZ: I have nothing further.

23 MR. HEABERLIN: So if we went approximately

24 two hours, do I owe you 600 bucks?

12:40 25 THE WITNESS: You're good at math.

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1 THE REPORTER: Counsel, do you need a copy of the

2 transcript?

3 MR. USOZ: I do.

4 (The deposition was concluded at 12:40 P.M.)

5

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1 DECLARATION

2

3

4

5 I hereby declare that I am the deponent in the

6 within matter; that I have read the foregoing proceedings

7 and know the contents thereof, and I declare that the same

8 is true of my knowledge except as to the matters which are

9 therein stated upon my information or belief, and as to

10 those matters, I believe it to be true.

11 I declare, under the penalties of perjury of

12 the state of California that the foregoing is true and

13 correct.

14 Executed on the ______ day of ____________,

15 _____, at ________________________, California.

16

17

18

19 _____________________________________

20 TIMOTHY T. WILLIAMS, JR.

21

22

23

24

25

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1 STATE OF CALIFORNIA ) ) ss.

2 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES )

3

4 I, Rich Alossi, Registered Professional Reporter,

5 California Certified Shorthand Reporter No. 13497, do hereby

6 certify:

7 That prior to being examined, the witness

8 named in the foregoing proceedings was by me duly sworn to

9 tell the truth;

10 That said proceedings were taken before me at the

11 time and place therein set forth and were taken by me in

12 stenographic shorthand and thereafter transcribed into

13 typewritten form under my direction and supervision;

14 That the dismantling of this transcript will void

15 the Reporter's certificate;

16 I further certify that I am neither counsel

17 for nor related to any party to said proceedings, nor in any

18 way interested in the outcome thereof.

19 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I hereunto subscribe my

20 name this day of , 2015.

21

22

23 _____________________________________ RICH ALOSSI, RPR, CCRR, CSR

24 CSR NO. 13497

25


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