Capability

Ek is nie altyd seker hulle is geskilled om dit te antwoord, die ouens wat hier op die grond is nie ()

(I22) (I am not always sure that the people on the ground have the skills to answer questions)

So I spend a lot of time with () when she first came in. Going into what happens. She didnt, she

couldnt understand the engineering side of things. She didnt really understand a lot of the

ecology, (), we will do another hydrological study. (I2)

I think I also becoming very cynical about a whole lot of appointees and what have you and rightly or

wrongly I carry baggage of the past and Ive seen so many things transformed from a

successful organization into a disastrous organization, just for the sake of transformation and

that doesnt sit comfortably with me. If things are transformed and it stays the same or it

improves then Im delighted, but we dont have the resources to waste and were losing skills

like we hemorrhaging skills as a country and thats the type of thing that worries me. (I34)

Co-management

Because of increasing growth in population more and more of our conservation systems are in urban

settings or have people involved who are interested in them who have a stake in them. These

are National parks they are not ours they belong to the people of the country, we just help try

and manage them in a meaningful way on behalf of the people of that country and things like

that. So, we fully understand that other people are involved and are impacting and things like

that. And have the right to have input, to have a say and to participation in these sort of

places and things like that. And one cannot do that in an alienating environment. You can't

turn around and say I have nothing, I dont wish to sit and hear your viewpoint or not

interested in what you say and things like that. If you do that you are a bad manager. (I6)

It's very difficult and sometimes you will have success and sometimes you must understand that you

won't. You will never meet half way sort of thing. Look if we took thing purely from a

conservation stand point. We say that we want to manage this system the best we can from a

viewpoint of conserving the lakes we would not breach it at all. You know that would be the

best thing for it from an environmental perspective. Let it manage itself, let it breach itself.

() You would reinstate wetlands that are now lost and so forth but we can't do that because

there are people living next to it. You know the other sort of the end of the argument that one

is being raised all the time - why do you not manage the system so it is permanently open and

you must have heard that view being raised as well and if one considers it and you know from

a conservation perspective it is not logical. It is not a permanently open system. It is a

naturally temporarily open/close system. () you are taking a system and you altering it

completely into something else because it meets your need. And you can do that on farm land

but this is a national park this is not a farmland so we are bound to certainly preserve the

processes and things like that but we need to sit and meet these people halfway. So, we sort

of try and find this middle ground so we breach at a lower level. We know there are

environmental consequences to it. (I6)

Weve just broken a deal with Knysna Municipality that we would, weve informally been removing

aliens there, but weve now poised to sign an agreement whereby we will maintain them and

you know not enhance them, but maintain them as undeveloped indigenous vegetation areas

and the bonus is Knysna Municipality is giving us R10 000 a year to do it. Well employ a

couple of historical disadvantaged people on ad hoc basis and everyone is happy. Its

important because if you get pieces of land like that, that lay unused, somebody gets a bright

idea and say hey we could be doing something else with it, whatever and you know on our

mandate to protect, get these, make these some place of refuge for the wildlife such as it is,

its going in the right directions. (I23)

Gaan na die voorsitter van die Honorary Rangers en s vir hom jy wil die laaste vyf jaar se Kersfees

verslagte sien. Jy sal dieselfde ding daar sien, dieselfde ding daar sien, dieselfde ding daar

sien. Wat verslagte ingegee wat ons kon s dit is leemtes, dit is dit. Niks gedoen nie. Dis

hoekom ek s hulle het n snaakse, dit is die tipe van ding, jy word naderhand moedeloos. Ek

gee my tyd, ek gee hulle kwaliteit tyd. As ek n besigheid moet loop, gaan werk vir n

besigheid sal my salaris nie onder R400, R500 n uur wees nie. Ek gee dit vir hulle verniet.

Hulle maak nie daarvan gebruik nie. () my tyd is vry ek kan daar vir 6 maande bly. Hulle

het my nie eers geantwoord nie. (I35)

One of the things that would be a real achievement if you managed it, is to tone down the believe on

the important part of SANParks that they have absolute authority. That has been a stumbling

block for years and years. () was a very accomplished manager of difficult relationships,

and he had the somewhat grudging but not very grudging cooperation of (), who as you

know now is god one and god two, (). (I28)

We are adjacent to the estuary which is SANParks Reserve and I think its crude to say that over,

certainly over, in my period of time weve actually had very little contact with SANParks. They

sort of can tend to keep you know they dont volunteer their services or their presence. (I23)

They thinking, ah we are town planners, we want money from this little lot. There was a company,

(), but as soon as we saw a meeting chaired by them, wed say oh my God, not another

one of those, you know. And we knew exactly what the end thing, (). (I17)

They do, they do. They dont tend to ask for suggestions, but they certainly, I think, you know, where

there has been comments, certainly sensible, you know, because were practically down to

earth, non-developers. Weve got no hidden agendas to make money and bent rules. But I

must admit, they are, Parks Board are rather bad as they go through commotions and

pretending they can solve it but they never do actually. (I18)

Toe het ons, die () het n brief geskryf aan Knysna se Munisipaliteit om vir hulle te s maar ons voel

hulle moet ons ken voordat daar ontwikkelings en goed goedgekeur word. Moet die () soort

van n okay gee en besluit hulle dink daar is genoeg water of nie, een van die twee. Die

antwoord wat ons gekry het, ek dink nie eers hulle het ons skriftelik geantwoord nie, ek dink

hulle het sommer maar net vir () gestuur om te s daar is geen manier dat ontwikkeling sal

gedemp word nie, water moet net gevind word. Nou waar de donner vind jy dit, jy weet. (I26)

These days I think theres far more transparency. I mean we went to a meeting up at the Reservoir

Hills in Sedgefield. They wanted to develop it and the consultant was a guy that we knew

very well, meant to be an environmentalist, meant to be a conservationist, he had worked for

either SANParks or CapeNature. We all went up there, we were invited, the first time wed

ever been invited as () to go to one of these things, and he stood there and he said, oh no,

theres no indigenous plants here, so we dont have to () and this other friend and I were

great botanists and said excuse me, whats that? And we started pointing out all around us

and it was stopped, because we could show them that the facts were not correct. But, now

its gone ahead and whos allowed it to go ahead? I dont know? (I17)

So the ANC, for reasons I think is associated with power decided that they would reduce a number of

municipalities after 1999. () he was given the job of reducing the number of municipalities

and he came around and we saw him when he came to Sedgefield and we put together a

very strong case for Sedgefield and Wilderness to be amalgamated into a municipality and we

used watershed boundaries. I happen to have a thing about watershed boundaries.

Watercourse boundaries is about the worst thing you could do. () came and in 10 seconds

he made it absolutely clear that he did not wish to be confused with facts. He would go and do

what he thought was best and he drew a boundary through the middle of Swartvlei and left

half of Swartvlei in George and half in Knysna (). (I28)

Communication

Apart from that in terms of SANParks contact we have very little contact. Okay we talk to the person

when you eventually find them. Finding the right person within SANParks is pretty damn

tricky. You know you go from the lady who runs the Wilderness you know up and down

between Knysna and here are to find the right person. For science fishing regulations

science, SANParks has got actually a very nice sign which has the fish and their known info

on it, but we thought it would be a good idea to have update the one weve got here () and

the one up in the mouth I think, but they ran out of money and weve had one printed and they

you know their thing at our cost, but we would very much like them to remember us and you

know were sort of on the same side fighting. (I23)

Were actually working quite well. Particularly the Hoekwil Ratepayers, ourselves the paragliding

guys, weve got good input from the cycling fraternity, the fishing fraternity okay. When I say

fishing I mean sports fishermen, dare I say it, the white collar sport fishermen. (I34)

Kyk hier is nog heelwat ander Conservancies ook. Daar is Touwsrivier Conservancy en daar het ons

ook nou vriende so ons praat met hulle ook. Ek ruil partykeer met hulle nuusbriewe uit. n

Bietjie hoor wat doen hulle. (I24)

() theres a woman who is part of Parks Board () she is based in Knysna and is very much part of

planning and all those sort of things. Now she is in her personal capacity also on the local

committee of the Mountain Club, so a lot of those liaison is done through her, () As it stands

I think if she werent there then probably she would have to be created if you know what that

means. We might have to put it in that sort of liaison. (I11)

Now what happens is they never take a scientific objective view of whats going on. They dont want

to listen and this has been going on for years. They never listen. (I2)

Theyre listening, but not, I mean theyre hearing, but not listening. (I17)

So SANParke kan maar met my kom praat as hulle n dom outjie na my toe stuur, jy weet, wat niks

weet nie. Maar daai slimmetjie, hy luister en dink, ag hy praat nonsens, en dan gaan hy daar

ook so s. (I5)

And very often, I mean the number of structure plan things weve been to and weve had all these

consultants and they take the minutes and then they send you back the report and they take a

statement out of context, which totally changes what the meaning was. And you think theyre

interpreting the meeting to suite themselves. Its not as they were, you know, I mean, yeh

theyre taking everything down and you think theyre listening to you. (I17)

We had a very interesting meeting two, three weeks back now with Knysna Municipality, () were

there from SANParks. () was there from Water Affairs and () was there from Disaster

Management and we were talking about the whole protocols regarding the mouth because

Disaster Management have established a very good working relationship with Weather

Bureau now (). Now () said oh well, this will be put out for public thing. Thats three

weeks ago, it still hasnt been published and I emailed him on Monday, I said whats

happening, oh no Knysna is going to do that. But Knysna were not the people who set up the

protocols. He was the person who set up the protocols with Disaster Management. Why isnt

he putting it out? You know we just get fogged off and it still hasnt happened () article in

the Edge here written by one of the guys who was at the meeting. Thats not an official thing.

Why not just say you know this is what has been agreed. I just feel that if they would actively

get involved in the community here I mean this estuary here is very much a part of our

community. () Maybe theyre not public people, I dont know, but I mean why do they have

a PR Organization then. (I29)

There have been meetings actually held by Parks Board and also explaining their management policy

and I know one famous one at Touwsranten where Sedgefield send 10 delegates up to a

meeting with Parks Board. Parks Board actually appointed consultants to actually gather

opinion from those delegates and none of that was actually recorded or made available and

thats the sort of thing that has happened in the past. (WS)

So I said yes I will write them out and he said he would study those before giving his judgement,

nobody could find any of the papers or that records are completely gone. In other words what

I have written wasnt there. What happened in cross-examination wasnt there, just to give

you another idea. (I2)

I mean () wasnt at the last meeting, so () was there, I can guarantee you that youll go to the

next meeting and not a single issue that was raised at the last meeting () will even know

about, because theres just jealousy in the office or who, what, politics or whatever, that they

dont talk to each other about anything. (I34)

Okay well I will repeat what Ive said just now and that is our concern in Sedgefield about the lack of

communication or indeed interaction of any sort by Parks Board on the community over quite

a number of years, its a common complaint, its one that have really caused much concern

and unhappiness within our community. Getting Parks Board to come and talk. Its as simple

as that and it hasnt happened. Requests have been made. Those requests have been

ignored. (WS)

Would you guys, even be willing to give expertise and (). Yes of course, absolutely. After all were

all technical people and their way of sorting things out is actually talk and listen to other

people points of view and may change ones attitude or change ones particular policy toward

things. If they can show theres a very good reasons for doing what they do. Oh yes theres

no doubt about it whatsoever, but you cant do anything if people refuse to come and talk to

you. (I25)

Die problem is natuurlik maar ontwikkeling en jou met respek ges jou ontwikkelaars is, werk baie

aggressiewer as wat die bewarings ouens tans werk en almal wil hier kom bly maar sodra jy

hier bly dan wil jy h dit moet bewaar word. So ons doen almal mee met die ontwikkeling en

dan raak ons dalk betrokke by bewaring of raak ons besorg. So, ek dink dat hulle baie meer

gedoen kan word en behoort te word om die algemene publiek bewus en betrokke te kry.

(I14)

So aan die einde van die dag ons sukkel n bietjie om daai tipe van mense nader te trek of om vir hulle

betrokke te kry. Hulle sal byvoorbeeld kom vir die eerste vergadering en dan sal hulle sien

daar word te veel Engels gepraat. Ons verstaan nie so lekker Engels nie daar word

geakkomodeer met Afrikaans en soms word daar Xhosa ook vertaal. Eerste meeting woon

hulle by en daarvandaan steek hulle, of hulle kom net nie terug nie basies nie. (I4)

Kyk hierso, daar gaan tolke wees. Daar is mos n tolk daar. Ons vergaderings wat ons hier hou, is n

Swartman van PE en hy het n tolk by. (I30)

Compassion

The shocking thing is also that you have people who are living in low laying areas. Now you cant do

anything about that. You can say, well they shouldnt have built there in the first place, but the

municipality agreed to it, Parks Board agreed to it although they didnt at first apparently but

they did in the end. Never quite sure why they agree to it, but the fact of the matter is there

are people living in the estuary. So its gonna make a good combination between healthy

ecology and looking after the interest of the people. Also if you know that the people

responsible for looking after the health of the estuary and managing it are on your side, how

much better lifestyle can you have? You know what I mean, not worry too much about

flooding but the people over there are shit scared. If there is a real flood theyre going to get

flooded out again and many of them cant get insurance. I mean if you were in that situation

what would you think. What would you do? (I25)

The issue with SANParks I mean for example weve got a lot of people, I mean during the 2000 flood

there were about 200 properties in Sedgefield that were affected by the floods directly or

indirectly and yet we never had a forum with SANParks to be able to point and somebody said

a lot of the SANParks people forget that people are also a part of the environment. You know

theyre looking only at the biota and theyre not looking at the people and people are a very

critical part, in fact they shouldnt even be on the Island, because then the flood plain is a

separate issue, they are there. (WS)

She (SANParks employee) wasnt at all sympathetic. She (angried) them greatly and that act more

than anything else have made them in fact effectively withdraw from all the forum meetings.

(I18)

Daar is van hulle wat ek mee 100% saam stem maar wanneer jy oorbewaar maak jy n fout in die

mensdom. Jy moet nie oorbewaar, jy kan bewaar maar moet nie oorbewaar. Want ek meen

die goed wat hier is man, dit is vir ons hier gesit en as jy dit nie oppas en benut nie, dan ek

meen. (I5)

Die ander deel van spesiaal parkeraad se kant af, ons agter gekom dat nou kry parkeraad die van die

gemeenskap teen die lagoon sonder n permit, hy het nou wel twee of drie vissies gevang en

wat so meer, maar nou konfiskeer parkeraad die man se gereedskap. Met ander woorde sy

visstok, sy aaspomp en die vis wat hy gevang het. Boonop gee hulle hom nog n ticket ook. Ek

dink nie dis van toepassing nie. En die vispomp en sy visstok word nooit so ver gebring dat

die man op die hof kom dat die items by die hof ingedien word nie. Dit raak net weg. Ek het al

saam met Thinus, hy werk vir parkeraad ek het met Davey gepraat ek se vir hulle eintlik wat

julle nou doen ek se julle roof die mense. Want dit is so ek dit sien. Julle roof die mense jy kan

hom nie n boete gee en nog sy gereedskap vat nie, at least die vissie wat hy gevang het, at

least kan hy sy kinders, sy kinders kon geet het vanaand. Hy het dan nou die boete hoekom

vat jy nou sy gereedskap? En as jy nou moet verder kyk, jy vat sy gereedskap, jy vat sy

pomp, jy vat sy vis wat hy vang. Waarnatoe lei dit nou. (I13)

Hy het sy les gekry by die magistraat, die magistraat het ges maar dis nie gesteel nie, hulle het dit

gevang om te gaan eet. Sommige mense vang nie vis om te gaan verkoop nie, hulle vang dit

want jy weet nie wat in hulle kaste aangaan nie. (I30)

I think, I don't think humanity has the right sit and destroy and mess up everything in existence simply

for their own utilisation and so forth. So one does it for, because I believe that the organisms

and systems that one tries to conserve have a right to exist, but one also, but one also have

to be, one lives in this world. We utilise this world and things like that and you know you also

do it for yourself. I don't want to go and live in a place like in the middle of a build-up area and

I think many other people don't want it or they want the opportunity to escape to places to

where you can enjoy nature. Be sort of happy that there is natural environments. So for that

personal sort of gains, for myself and people in the future and things like that. It is also the

whole thing in terms of sustainable utilisation and these things. We don't just conserve just

because they have right. They do have a right but if you, if you look after things properly you

can definitely utilise things properly. In a meaningful way. It is not just a case of protectionism,

in place of, people always talk about sustainable utilisation. () If you manage it well and you

look after it well you can get multiple benefits from it forever rather than just exploiting it and

destroying it. So, I get satisfaction out of thinking that we can potentially try to achieve that

and my part in trying to, certainly try and achieve those things. Cause it makes my

environment better, it makes my quality of life better and I believe that it certainly makes other

peoples quality of life better. (I6)

Complexity

Its very complex. Weve run into it in several occasions when, youve probably heard that at the

AGM, that we were trying to, now they say they were going to do it, but were trying to get

Working for Water or anybody to clear what they call the Serpentine Road. The road up to

Hoekwil, just because it would look nice without all the aliens and it would be at least an

example for people who live there and drive up and weve run into all sorts of problems as to

who actually controls either side of the road, you know, we run into this is it SANRAL, is it

George, who does it really fall under? Everybody seems to pass the buck. (I37)

I think with managing it is close to being a nightmare, because property values are very high and I

dont even think that the boundaries of the park are even properly settled. If they are, the

Park Board seems to know where they are. Ill give you an example, see here. There across

the road, that is, were part of Ward 4 according to the George Municipality. The road on the

other hand, Im not quite sure who looks after it, though 100m along the road its Eden District.

This lot I believe is provincial but managed by the municipality, but dont quote me on that.

You go out here, this is National Park. Now where my boundary with the National Park is,

heaven knows. It keeps shifting. This was here before the Park. You go out of there on the

other side and behind that first lot of bushes is the old Choo-Tjoe Railway lines. Thats

Transnet property. You carry on across there on the other side and there is the N2 and that is

SANRAL. You go up to where those houses are and now youre back into Ward 4, George

Municipality and you go down onto the beach and I think that is SANParks again. Now you

want to ask me how you should manage that. You see what I mean about a nightmare. (I11)

Cooperative governance

I think thats one of the tragedies, but I mean if you look at this the environmental side theres so

many governmental departments that are involved in that and I get the impression that they

dont ever talk to each other. They all (inaudible) bits of information. (I29)

Wie het beheer oor die hele estuary? Dis wat ek wil weet. Ons weet dat SANParks die bestuur reg het

op dit. Hy het boggerall te doen met enige iets anders. Hy het niks te doen daar nie. Die

grond is hierdie mense se ding. Nou het hulle ges nee dit is nou Eden. They pass the buck,

maar hulle het nog grond hierso. Hulle verkoop hier grond sonder Eden se toestemming. Nou

hulle gaan daarvoor verantwoordelikheid moet gee. Nou die ander vraag is. Ons weet almal

wat n vlei is en wat sy doel is en hoe hy sy funksies uitvoer, n? Hoekom het hulle mense

toegelaat om in die vleie te bou? Nog n punt. Die eiland, die regulasies van die munisipaliteit

het ges hulle moet n fondasie, hulle moet bokant die fondasie moet hulle n muur bou 2.5m

bokant die hoog meter vlak en dan die huis bou. Hoeveel van daai huise het daai? Wie het

hulle toestemming gegee? Wie het toesig gehou? Dis hoekom ek s, (). Daar is geen toesig

gehou nie. Daars geen bestuur nie. (I35)

Nee ek het al met () gepraat daaroor, toe s hy die kleinhoewes val onder Landbou. Jy sien ons val

onder munisipaliteit so () kan vir daai ou s hoor hier jou hele plot is vol Wattle, laat dit

skoonmaak, maar hy kan nie, want hulle val onder die Departement van Landbou en, oh my

dear, dit is nou weer n heeltemal ander ballgame daai. So jy sien die probleem is lyk my die

staat in daai sin druk nie die boere om hulle grond skoon te maak nie want hulle eie grond lyk

nog soos. Ek meen hier is baie staatsgrond ook wat hier l wat oortrek is met Wattle. (I24)

So ek moet miskien vir () vra dat hy sy spannetjie stuur en kom kyk en s luister ek moet hierso

strook wat ons kan doen. Maar daai ouens het my ook verduidelik, jy weet dit gaan oor in wie

se jurisdiksie dit l. As dit in SANRAL se padreserwe dan kan hulle nou weer nie daaraan vat

nie en sulke stories. (I19)

One gentleman brought up a roads issue, speed limit and again its a practical thing. I understand it, I

worked in that area for a long enough. The roads go straight through your property but Eden

Districts maintain it and theyre provincial road. So theres nothing you could do about it, I

mean I used to work, we had an enormous amount of Lantana and Blackwood growing on the

road reserve and we thought from our side as a good gesture, we send our alien clearing

team () So we did and then we got a really snotty threat to say that please stay out of our

road reserves. () An outsider would look at this and say well why arent you doing anything

about the Blackwood and Lantana, but whos the response, I think a lot of it comes down to

who is the responsible sort of party and who can we speak to. Who has direct responsibility

for the issue that we have a problem with. Instead of well we have an issue of this whatever

and so were just going to attack you lot because youre conveniently position at a place

where we can attack you and get a hold of you. So you are going to bare the brunt of it. (I31)

What the problem is, which Ive become more aware of and weve all become much more aware of is

corporate governments, no cooperative governance. Cooperative governance is a rule, shall

we say, whereby authorities, government authorities on various levels do not take each other

to court. Theyre required to cooperate. () As a result of that, I think its fair to say, not over

exaggeration, that South African democracy has suffered in that if you get a strong body of

any sort and they put their foot down and they say thats whats going to happen and

everybody else says, well okay were not allowed to fight with you, we just have to go along

with you and this is very much whats happening here. It sounds a bit dramatic, but you know

you have a change to think and definitely this is whats happened. () The environment is

theirs. It is not theirs. So we have these management plans and what is happening they are

supposed to be finished and approved in 2004/2005 shall we, say its now seven years later

and hardly any of them has got a plan its not just here. Its because there is so much

opposition from people like myself towards SANParks is planning to do. () So they get an

independent consultant. Who does exactly as they told and the public was allowed to

comment on this. And the comments are completely ignored. () When you read up about

these things and it states very clearly that these alternatives should be considered. So I put in

a complete alternative. And I analysed and I got all the stuff I analysed SANParks 2m opening

against the alternative of leaving the mouth open or opening as soon as it closes or in fact

when it starts to close, and I list the reasons for and the reasons against, do a complete

comparison. In detail, detail, detail. It then goes to the consultant. The consultant dont even

bother with it they do as SANParks told. () So anyway I wrote all of this thing up it went in

and they just approved, the Department of environmental affairs approve exactly what

SANParks said even though it was ridiculous, () Thrown out completely, so of course I

appealed it. () There is an act that says that whoever makes a decision needs to explain

everything. () One of the things about this, is that it says in the regulations that if you appeal

against a decision that that should be judged by an independent body, you cannot, the people

who made the decision in the first place to reject you appeal, cannot now look again and that

arrived at the original decision. But this appeal, NEMA, has to go back to Department of

Environmental Affairs, thats where it goes to. () When it really comes to the technical part

they dont have the knowledge so what they did is that when I appeal against this decision as

they went to SANParks, because SANParks is the only people in the organisation supposedly

know what they are doing. So I am appealing to an independent body which is not an

independent body because SANParks is under them in any way. So when it was the first

decision was really made by SANParks, goes back to them to appeal against that and ii is still

the same people and it is not them that goes back to SANParks. It is impossible, its

impossible there is no democracy when you get into that sort of situation. The only trouble is

to take that any further is you have to take them to court and you cant take them through

mainstream, you have to take them to crime. We have to pay for it yourself. (I2)

Its basically a head office. They dont encourage individual decision-making within their own

organisation. They encourage, its a bit like the ANC, its a bit to much like that. You have to

toe the line. Whether you right or wrong. (I2)

Its also that long distance stuff that worries me, for example somebody in Cape Town decides what

size fish you can catch here and how many you can catch and they havent got a clue whats

going on locally. You know to me to use the guys at SANParks () and those guys they can

do some research and come up and say okay well for this season were not going to allow

any Steenbras to be caught, because of the population is falling, but maybe next season well

review it. So youve got a bit more of a dynamic management structure there and you know

youll say between Gerickes and Wilderness no oysters are to be taken for two years or

something like that. You give the beds a chance to build up. You know that kind of

management. You dont need some guy sitting in a shop, in an office somewhere in Cape

Town for the whole country nogal, I mean its different in PE, its different in East London and

its different in Natal, but they decide on what fish you can catch and how big they must be

and so on from there. For the whole country its insane. So they need to de-regularize or bring

it down to local level. If you talk to the local guys youll learn very quickly whats being caught

and whats not being caught and what the concerns are, because most of them are

concerned. (I36)

Some people have general views on SANParks which dont necessarily apply particularly to here, but

its one of the few of the old pre 94 government things that hasnt changed. All final decision

is virtually all taken in Pretoria where most of them has never seen the side of the Cape coast

and their idea of a Park, I suppose, is to go to Kruger and Mapungubwe or maybe the

Kalahari Gemsbok which is firstly very different flora and fauna and secondly they are fenced,

well if not fenced do not the () people dont live in them and move through them in a random

way. Also its primarily a waterpark but how it was started so there are quite a lot differences

and I would like to see rather more of local control in the sense that local fishers were given

more power and responsibility and things like that. (I11)

And its really only people like yourself in the academic world that I think go across these boundaries

and I think thats a pity, you know to me where the environment is concerned there should be

a liaison person in each government department that you know let one department drive it but

there should be somebody setting up a liaison. () interesting thing is they had very good

liaison with Water Affairs and very good liaison with Environmental Affairs and things like that

so you spoke to one person but they had all the answers and as a result it was always nice

and they had some good people there too. It was always nice to meet with them and they

knew what was going on around as well. You dont get that impression at all here. (I29)

Cost of participation

I would say one obstacle that might affect a lot of us in this area is financial. If they want to get

involved and it means paying, theyve got to be selective. They cant afford to go for

everything. So, theyve got to be selective and it might not be paying for membership but

paying transport, paying communication, paying time, paying that. So, theyve got to be

selective and go for the one they feel they are making the most contribution to or like some

people dont want to make a contribution, they just want to take. That they become a member

of something, because they getting something back, ja. They might not give anything, but

theyre getting something, you know. So, I would say that that would be the main factor

effecting how people do become involved in anything is the cost. Whether its affordable or

not. (I17)

Look, I think the reason why it didn't go through is because it was such an outcry from the community.

At the end of the day it was a few people who put in really hard work with very little money to

fight a big corporate and they managed to galvanise enough people. It was obviously a big

enough thing that enough people were kind of willing to get involved. But it was down to a

hand full of people really who put in the time in with no reward. It is not they were getting

paid. It was very difficult, you know, one of the major problems I think with people trying to

protect the system is lack of funds because it is difficult to fight a fight against developers with

big financial backing and big lawyers and things when you mostly have retired people or

people with jobs who are doing everything for free. With that particular development there was

pages and pages of documents to wade through and you know it was diligently done by a few

people who had the expertise and time, question if they had the time, but they managed. I

think that was good win. (I12)

I think were all aware of it and we all live in the same country, but theres certain restrictions and

theres certain issues and you when youre dealing with people organizations which hinder

probably the effectivity that the community would like to see them having and you know if its

done in terms of budgetary constraints, like you found out yesterday, mileage you know.

Peoples mileage was cut down. They cant do what they would like to do and they cant

always get to a place that they have to and I think sometimes its, you know as I say speaking

from an outside perspective we dont know those internal politics and facts. (I31)

Historical legacy

Ja, goeie luisteraars. Maar ons is bly daar is mense wat belangstel in ons, hulle het ons hier tussen

die koppe kom weggooi, nou is ons bly daars mense wat belangstel. (I30)

Nou ja, kom ek se vir jou die parkeraad het eintlik my lewe opgefok, because hy het ons daar uit, hy

het ons almal daar uit die see uit, my mense kan nie see toe gaan nie, hulle het daai see

toegemaak, toe hulle die see vat toe maak hulle hom toe, daai was so 48 jaar gelede, het

hulle daai see toegemaak. My mense as hulle wou gaan visvang dan moet hulle skelm in die

nag gaan, gaan visvang, nou se jy nou vir my, skelm in die nag by die see in sulke krans

gebied is mos n baie gevaarlike storie. (I5)

Toe kom die natuurbewaring en hy se kyk hier ek kom nou navorsing doen hierso, af met die bote van

die water af jy gaan nie meer visvang nie. Nou sit daai kleurling mense by die huis. Toe begin

die inbrekings, verkragtings toe begin al daai dinge want die mense word nou op n hoop

geskuif. ..van daai water af wat hulle al die jare gebruik het. Hoeveel maal het die vis nou al

gevrek in daai meer. (I5)

Dit is nie altyd nie, is nie altyd nie. Kyk as ek dit vir jou so kan stel op die oomblik kry ons baie swaar

sal ek dit pleinlik moet se ons kry baie swaar coloureds en swart mense wat wil deel wees of

wat wil kom, verstaan. Dit is meestal ons blanke mense wat dan opkom en hulle kom

vorentoe sodra die kleurlinge en swartes sien daar is te veel wit dan raak dit ewe skielik n

rassistiese ding. Verstaan dan sal hulle rassisme voorgee of hulle wil dit doen omdat hulle wit

is en die kant toe en soontoe which is very counterproductive op die ou einde van die dag.

So, ons laat mense kom om die gedagte dat ons wil saam werk, daar gaan nie n vinger

gewysery wees en apartheid is nie meer ter sprake nie. 1994 is verby () daai is verby en as

jy nie kan weg beweeg van daai af nie dan gaan jy ongelukkig stagneer. En dit is wat die

meeste van ons mense as ek kyk Collin's hoek Karatara area, Beervlei area, daai tipe sal ek

se die plaas areas basies dit is met daai tipe mentalitiet met wat hulle voorendag kom.()

Eerste meeting woon hulle by en daarvandaan steek hulle, of hulle kom net nie terug nie

basies nie. (I4)

That was actually the weir. It had provisions put in and there used to be sort of a collaborative

management. The yachtsman here would complain that the water level is getting to low and

they would put some bulks in the weir to race the water level. Then the fishermen would

complain that the fish arent getting in, so they take them out again. But it was a definite, so

there was a definite management of the lakes. Whether it was effective or not is questionable

and that made quite an impact on the lakes. Whether it was good or bad, its depending on

who you ask. That period of management and of course the Touwsriver mouth was managed.

They used to open and close it and the management strategy was very different from what it

is now.()They were managing their system quite purposely, quite intensely, based on very

different management priorities that we use now. They were worried they were going to silt

up. They were worried that they were going to get polluted. They were worried that the water

level wouldnt be right for recreation. And it was quite intensive management. Nobody ever

thought of flood control, frankly, because they didnt have floods then. And nobody was

actually, terribly concerned about preserving the natural environment. It was managing it for

maximum recreational utilization. Strange difference. Once Parks Board took over

management it changed dramatically. They introduced immediately a principle, a minimum

interference. (I18)

So that was another big increase in Sedgefield. And when those increases starting happening

suddenly the whole control of the lake became more formalised. I don't know when SA

National parks took over but they were, that also had a big effect on the management of the

Swartvlei. But up until now there is almost a big stand off between the community and SA

National parks. And it is almost a case of, people would write letters to the papers and stand

on soap boxes and say bad things about SA National Parks and they can't fight back

because they are corporate they can't say that so and so is a liar so they have to keep quiet.

And more and more people say bad things about SA National Parks. And yes, there are

some, they might tend to be a bit of a slow organisation bound by corporate rules and so forth

but there is a large believe by the people that they are absolutely useless and so forth. And

people tend, people say it, then other people believe it, and people say it and it snowballs. But

they are not, a lot of accusations towards them are unfounded. (I3)

Dan het hulle met als wat kon skep, kyk as hulle nog op n dag gekies wanneer dit nou vroegaand,

laatmiddag laagwater ook gewees het. Dan het hullle nou hierdie slootjie deur gegraaf en

dan het die kinders, dit was nou hulle werk gewees, moes in die ding staan met hulle voete

die sand losmaak. Dan gaan dit see toe en dan eweskielik as hy sterk genoeg begin loop dan

s hulle die mond breek, dan vat hy tonne sand af see toe. Net n rukkie daarna dan kom die

vis by die honderde daar af. Duisende. Dan skep almal die vis uit met als wat jy kon skep,

gooi dit op die sand, die see kom en hy spoel jou weg. Jy kan nie al die goed gaan

droogmaak en bewerk nie. Jy het nie n yskas nie. Nee dit was regtig n groot event. Die

hele gemeenskap was die aand daar op die strand gewees. Maar die vis het baie afgeneem.

Ons het as kinders het ons hierso met n roeibootjie het ons saans met n Tillie lamp voor op

hom met n blik kort agter en n skepnet van draad, kuikendraad. Dan het ons die Harders en

Springers uitgeskep en dan die groot plesier was, afgesien van die vis wat jy nou gevang het,

is om te sien wat als onder die water aangaan, want jy kon tot op die wit sand sien. Sien daar

was nie gras gewees nie en dan het die Stompneusies, die Tanloosies, die Steenbrasies by

die dosyne daar, baie lewe en nou is hier nie meer nie. Ek meen die kinders wat hier langs

die kant sit en visvang en hulle kry nie eers n byt nie. (I22)

Management

Well they certainly doing the best they can under very difficult circumstances. They have difficulties in

terms of contact with the public, because theyre not highly thought of, lots of antagonism.

And theyre constrained by these rather strange South African requirement that theyd be

profitable. I think thats disastrous, a National Park should never be profitable. Ja so their

management is again and again, their management has to take cognizance with the need to

be profitable. Well I think thats a bit wrong, doesnt happen anywhere else in the world. (I18)

Another example for instance. Theres a lot of walks here in the Garden Route and I think all of them,

practically all of them are the responsibility of Parks Board to maintain them. They dont.

They dont look after them in a way they should and yet theyre very keen to charge people for

going on these things. (I25)

Van die ouens wat ek daar voor gekry het. Maar die feit van die, soos ek ges het as daar nie genoeg

geld is nie, is daar nie genoeg geld nie. Gaan dit altyd oor n finansile aspek gaan dat ons dit

moet red, ek weet nie, of het ons dan nou besluit ons gaan alles laat gaan en ons gaan

hierdie goed maar net n natuurlike dood sterf. Dit is ook op die pyplyn. Ek dink nie moeder

natuur sal ons daai plek sommer sonder meer toe te laat om (). (I8)

Hulle het hom nog nie uitgetrek nie. As daai masjien beskadig is gaan hulle betaal. Ek gaan dit

aangee aan die publieke beskermer en vir haar s dit is hoe hulle die geld mors. Hulle het

duisende rande al hier gemors, okay dit is nou die eerste vraag is n. (I35)

I look at the guys sitting at the gates of the park and I say if you take R25 today youve done well.

How much did it cost to put them sitting there all day to collect one entry fee? Ja I think thats

just, you know if youve come out of a business environment you look at resource application

and youve got to apply it where it does the best. Either that or they must have so much

resources that they dont know what to do with it. One or the other and I cant believe that,

theyve got manpower coming out of their ears, but maybe its unskilled manpower, I dont

know. () Where do they clean up first, this whole dedicated team? Jill Bunding-Venter, the

property next to Jill Bunding-Venter. Sorry thats the last place that should be cleaned. How

can you apply the resources to suit yourself? I dont know, just am I wrong or do I just think

differently? If thats your responsibility surely you clean up other peoples mess first. I dont

know, maybe I just think differently. () George municipality says we dont have the

resources, finish, do it yourself. Thats it. So ja, I dont want to say Im on the warpath with

SANParks but I dont think theyre managing the area well at all, to be honest. The poaching,

the ja I mean the lack of you know even mowing the paths of the trails and cleaning in front of

the bird hides. Only if you ask does it get done. Its not difficult to have a roster and say some

of this needs mowing once every two months, in winter once every 6 months. Slot it in then

do it. (I34)

Needs of others

I also liked the fact that in the meeting you had people from all cross sections of our community. Ja, I

never thought to think about the fishing side of things, which you guys brought and which is a

huge, I mean for a lot of people that are unemployed, the growing number of unemployed, its

important that thats taken into consideration. (I32)

Ja, look I think there are a lot of people, I mean particularly the subsistence fishers from Smutsville

here, I think its huge and I think we dont appreciate, I mean there are a lot of people, we see

them going down there, there are a lot of people I think that are depending on that protein

they get out of the water at the moment. () I think, ja I think the average Sedgefield is not

aware of the fact that theres a lot of subsistence fishing going on here at the moment. (I29)

Maar dit moet ook wees dat hulle almal mekaar verstaan, verstaan. Dat hulle almal mekaar verstaan

en dat die een nie kom met die mentaliteit dit is n rassisme en dit is nou weer net wit wat nou

weer net wil overpower en wat, want kom ek stel dit vir jou so. () They don't want to do that

hulle wil nie meer leer nie. Hulle wil sit, dit is oraait die government sal vir my sorg. Hy moet

vir my sorg, hulle verwag dit. Right, dit is basies wat hulle sien as dit is myne, ek moet dit kry,

as ek kyk na die indigenous forest. Dit behoort aan ons almal hierso, aan ons almal, maar nie

almal wil dit sien afgechop wees nie, nie almal wil he daai bome moet afgesaag word nie

sodat die mense op die ou einde van die dag job creation het nie, of kan kos op die tafel sit

nie want daar is ander ways and means om dit ook te kan doen, maar they only see it their

way. Verstaan. So basies my ideal thing () sal wees dat almal wat betrokke kan wees moet

kom en almal wat daar wil wees, moet daar wees en almal wat wil inslae lewer moet

hom/haar punt basies neerl maar hulle ook moet verstaan dat almal se punte in ag geneem

moet word en nie net hulle sin nie, of die een kry nie voorkeur omdat hy PhD het of omdat hy

in Wildernis bly of hy bly in n pandok of wat ook al nie. Almal sin moet equal gekyk word na

aan die einde van die dag en dit is somtyds wat ons mense nie verstaan nie. (I4)

Passion/emotions

My personal perspective, but having dealt with the whole different suite of things and different people

and different issues not mouth openings and I want to speak as someone speak broadly on

an environmental matters and I think its fair to say that my personal opinion is really just that

there are a lot of sort of emotional, a lot of people out there get very emotional when it comes

to certain things and a lot of its got to do with sentiment and the past and the history. What

people are used to and what their opinions are and I think it, something like that youve got a

group of people around the table (). So whenever you get those people around the table

and you start having a discussion about a burning issue like that, you know tempers flare,

people are emotional and people have their way of thinking that that needs to be done in this

particular way. Having dealt with some of the burn issue from a management prospective

obviously theres always room to move in an adaptive management is something that we all

aware of but at the end of the day theres a book or for example there is the management

plan and thats what needs to be implemented and put into place. () I think with any issues

as I say which are highly emotive like what youre dealing with here or as I said in my past

which has been baboon matters, is people like to get their 5 cents worth and they like to

believe its their way is the correct way and I throw caution to things like management. So

often you have these discussions and people arent always aware of the, and I mean now its

taken from my perspective line in science is that people work really hard on management

plans and they collect the data, they interpret it, they put it into management plans and they

put it out there. But in a situation as I say youve got people engaging, you often have people

and I dont want to sound disrespectful, but people who arent always or they havent always

gone and equipped themselves with the relevant information and facts. So as I say its a

difficult situation where you get people, not shooting of the hip but very opinionated on what

they believe is right, but not always taking in all the sort of relevant facts and information. ()

So I like to go on data facts and that sort of thing. So generally in the discussions that Ive

been in my past I removed myself from heavy debate and emotions because I dont believe

that it has a place, but I dont always think you achieve as much as what you should by.

(I31)

Respect

Dit sal dit miskien, want op die oomblik word ons maar, jy weet nou kom daarso in Knysna uit ek

verstaan ook nie baie mense nie. Nou daar wat ons die oesters verkoop dan kom die manne

daar uit, jy weet dit is amper soos n kat wat jou daar aangedra het. Jy word nie eers dag ges

nie. Ons kom uit die koue water uit jy word nie eers nie, dit is amper soos n kat wat jou daar

ingedra het. Dan voel jy so. Kan n mens so wees. () mense, more mense. Hoe het vanmre

gegaan, what so ever. Laat n mens darem voel. (I13)

I don't know when SA National parks took over but they were, that also had a big effect on the

management of the Swartvlei. But up until now there is almost a big stand-off between the

community and SA National parks. And it is almost a case of, people would write letters to the

papers and stand on soap boxes and say bad things about SA National Parks and they can't

fight back because they are corporate they can't say that so and so is a liar so they have to

keep quiet. And more and more people say bad things about SA National Parks. And yes,

there are some, they might tend to be a bit of a slow organisation bound by corporate rules

and so forth but there is a large believe by the people that they are absolutely useless and so

forth. And people tend, people say it, then other people believe it, and people say it and it

snowballs. But they are not, a lot of accusations towards them are unfounded. (I3)

You know its a pity, but having said that I dont actually blame Parks Board, because the nature of

engagement in this part of the world in particular is antagonistic. You know the Numbis here

are extremely powerful, because this area attracts professional people with skills and time on

their hands, like myself, who attend these meetings and many of them are, have pretty high

level qualifications, and to make most of the Parks Board look like amateurs. And public

participation meeting here, they wrong history of them are really hot affairs and so I am afraid

that it does make your average Parks Board official feel a little bit weary. (I18)

Ja, heeltemal, die area kyk die meeste van die mense het ek baie goeie verhoudings mee, en ek

probeer selfs met die veldwagters praat dat hulle ook goeie verhoudings met die mense aan

gaan. Hulle het die een veldwagter se bakkie byvoorbeeld in die dam in gestoot toe hulle vir

hom kry in Eilandvlei toe hy af was. En hy het vis gevang saam met sy kinders. Toe het hulle

net sy bakkie in Eilandvlei ingestoot. () Mense van Touwsranten, mense wat in die

omgewing in bly. Mense wie se vis gekonfiskeer het omdat die permit nie reg was nie, omdat

die size limit nie reg was nie en omdat dit in buite seisoen was basies. En hy het maar net sy

werk gedoen. (I4)

Ek het die foon opgetel die Saterdag oggend ek het die: Don't tell me the fucking this, what where you

guys, die antie skel my in engels. En ek staan net en al wat ek kan se is: Ma'am I do

apologise ma'am but I will get back to you and this. En ek skryf dit toe neer ek kan nie terug

skel nie ek moet my cool hou, verstaan. Die section ranger het byvoorbeeld doods

dreigemente gekry sy het vieslike briewe gekry wat daai vrou heeltemal op n state gesit het

wa sy pille moes gaan kry het sy moes stress kliniek ingeboek gewees het. Sy kon nie

meetings bygewoon het, veral waar Sedgefield se mense betrokke was kon sy glad nie na toe

gegaan het nie, sy moes weggebly het. Daai tipe van goed. Daai vloed het groot, groot, groot

opskudding veroorsaak, die 2007 ene as ek dit nou vir u so kan stel, maar dit is ook as gevolg

van die mens se ignorance. Jy bou nie n huis in n floodplain nie, right. (I4)

So that is where parksboard gained a lot of anti and that they haven't provided public access to

Swartvlei and the third thing is that the parksboard members are typically got PhDs in some

or other science and they are not, they are scientist they are not public engagers they are not

dinner party speakers and so () people refer to them as god 1 and god 2 on the basis that

they think so much of themselves and don't want to speak to the public. That is maybe not the

case if you get to know them they aren't like that at all but they don't want to sit and argue

with the people on why you should do this or that and so forth but the public are fairly ill

informed and have a set opinion. You are not going to change certainly the public opinion. (I3)

Hulle blameer vir ons, ja. () Kyk, omdat hulle vir ons sien in die area en omdat ons basies al die

water bodies in werk omdat daar research gedoen word op al die water bodies van, kyk

Rondevlei is, die sal ek se die water research facility, alles wat te doen het met aquatic living,

hulle doen baie van daai research, so hulle kry baie van ons mense op Swartvlei mond op

Swartvlei lagoon area, daai tipe van areas so automaties, en daar is borde op wat s: no

vessels SANParks management, daai tipe van ding, so hulle verwag, so ek weet nie of hulle

verwag dat ons die weer moet control nie, dat ons moet s dit kan nie vandag ren nie want

daar gaan soveel mense se huise vloed, dit is iets buite ons beheer. Al wat ons kan doen ons

kan net adapt to the situation en ons kan net die beste daarvan maak op die ou einde van die

dag. So, ja dit is basies waarmee ons sit. Die feit dat hulle ons sien patroleer in die area, dat

daar borde op is wat se speedboats not allowed jetskis not allowed en daar is n SANParks

kudu kop op, but we are not totally in charge of that area. Meeste van die area is ook Eden

munisipaliteit wat ook daarna moet kyk, wat ook maintenance in daai tipe areas moet doen,

verstaan. Ons is maar net daar om te kyk dat die mense hulle bote reg gebruik dat hulle nie

sal ek s in Swartvlei gebruik en in Swartvlei mond basies nie. (I4)

People Ive spoken to about the workshop that were there found it very positive. Ja, I think for a while

there was a whole, the poor guy, Richard Batson, that whole story. It was kind of a, if youre

on Richard Batsons side youre against SANParks side and if you are on SANParks side your

against Richard Batson and you know that I think is sort of dissolving. I think a few people

has sort of said okay well Richard had his say, but we need to move forward. We need to

have interaction with SANParks about the lakes management. (I32)

Because hes a legend of truth, ja. ()But I think people are now seeing that theres a lot more to it

than just that and that it is incredibly important that we have dialog with SANParks about it, so

that there isnt animosity here, because they would dig their heels in and say we only open

the river mouth when the water is at 2m or 1.8. You can understand their position when they

had nothing but insults from the community. () At that meeting, I think that was probably the

turning point for () fan club, you know, he sort of stood up at the end and dug his heels in

and said you know youre talking absolute rubbish, you dont know what youre talking about

sort of thing. I think then people realize, because this guy has come to talk about it, to have

dialog and you know Richard was trying to shut it down. (I32)

You cannot operate like that, by the same token one doesn't always have to agree with everybody the

same as they won't always won't agree with you. You will have different viewpoints and that in

many ways are healthy but come back to the relationships. Yes, one has to, where ever

possible foster and maintain good relationships with people. You don't have to like people but

you have to be cordial and polite and mindful of their views and their intentions and things like

that. So, yes we have to do that and we do do that as best we are able. Not always possible.

There are problem areas. But, ya I think for the most part, you know, bar for the few

exceptions we do tend to maintain that and to a fairly high degree. (I6)

Hulle is veronderstel om met ons te kommunikeer. Hulle kom dan nie eers na ons vergaderings toe

nie. Hulle het nou opdrag gekry om na die vergaderings toe te kom, maar dit is tragies hoe

arrogant hulle is. (I35)

Responsibility

I dont know its a sort of entitlement thing I suppose, but of course the other thing as Natalie says

there are a lot of old people there. They dont know really what to do so as long as theyve got

somebody to fight for them theyre fairly happy. (I25)

He could actually, he could fight their things tooth and nail and bring up good arguments and we think

that he probably was a large, in a large way responsible for them not putting the toll road

there. So when he took on SANParks about the river mouth opening we were all sort of, yeah,

yeah, go for it and a lot of what he said made sense about the bridge and trying to get rid of

the rocks underneath, but it seems that he broke law doing that and you know rightly or

wrongly maybe with all the best intentions. (I32)

Hulle sal, oooh, ek het probleme met daai twenties. () Maar kyk nou elke vergadering, hulle is nooit

op die vergadering nie. Elke vergadering wat die officials kom uit die Kaap uit dan moet die

vergadering moet hulle verteenwoordig. Want hulle is die span wat ons, die oestermense

verteenwoordig die kant, so hulle moet. Kyk as daar veranderings kom of, wat at least hulle

moet die eerste mense wees. Hy moenie by my hoor langs die see, hallo daar het n

verandering gekom nie. Dis nie, daar begin die gestreiery nou nie. (I13)

Die parkeraad en SANParke moet dit in hulle breins kry en hulle moet die ander kleurige mense meer

gee om op te pas. Sien hoe mooi pas ek die stukkie op so as die mense meer het om op te

pas dan bewaar ons almal. Jy moenie daai mense se verantwoordelikheid weg vat hom af dat

hy geen verantwoordelikheid het nie. Ek meen hoe proud het ek gewees. (I5)

For science fishing regulations science, SANParks has got actually a very nice sign which has the fish

and their known info on it, but we thought it would be a good idea to have update the one

weve got here () and the one up in the mouth I think, but they ran out of money and weve

had one printed and they, you know there thing at our cost, but we would very much like them

to remember us and you know were sort of on the same side fighting. (I23)

Maar die SANParke moet begin dink, want hy oorbewaar. Hy moet die gemeenskap ook vra om hom

te help bewaar en maar dan moet daai mense daai goeters benut. En dan sal daai mense dit

benut. Sal self sien laat dit nie oorbenut raak nie, want hy weet as dit oorbenut raak dan

gaan hy aan die korste end trek. Maar hy moet nie al die verantwoordelikheid op homself vat

nie en dink hy kan die hele land bewaar en goeters. No way dat dit gebeur. (I5)

If they just get together with the people who are here and say can you help us, you know what about

here. Maybe we dont agree with you but thats fine, but instead of which they just hide

themselves over at Rondevlei and they create so much frustration in the () community.

(I29)

Yes I think that the obstacle, SANParks are always an obstacle, but with almost anything, certainly

theyre an obstacle, but the interesting thing is actually that when we said to Parks Board with

the Perdespruit has been allowed to silt up, its a water course and surely you are responsible

for that, they said no were not. They decided they were not responsible for anything to do

with the Perdespruit. So it wasnt possible to say well look after it, you know, make sure its

flowing. Make sure it works as it should do. So its just been allowed to silt up. Now why they

deny responsibility for that nobody is quite sure, but since they dont come and talk to us we

cant actually ask the question. So thats a mystery. Why are they not responsible for the

maintenance of the Perdespruit? Cause yes thats one thing, a lot of its on private land, but

we dont believe there is any problem in actually speaking to the owners of the land in order to

deepen it, because they probably, it could serve them quite well. (I25)

I mean the number of times Ill get a notice and says, my son calls me a serial objector, and I say, well

maybe I do a bit too much objecting, but all my objections are based on scientific facts. You

know, Im not saying, dont do it just because I dont want it done. Im saying dont do it

because these are the consequences. There definitely, that is the attitude ones got to have

and yes sometimes you look at, and you think, gee thats against it and thats for and maybe

the for are better than all thats against. So, lets see if we can get the right thing out of that.

Come to the right win, win situation. But, unfortunately all too often theres only one thing that

drives everyone and thats greed. Theyll put it down, oh were going to be giving these great

jobs. Great jobs? It doesnt happen. They import people, because the people, the locals are

unemployable. They, not only do they not have a work ethic, but they are unemployable, they

cant, they dont know how to do whatever is required. (I17)

That is part of what I monitor. I monitor the detrimental environment impacts of our own management

actions. So that we can sit and modify them and sit minimize those impacts and there are

impacts. And they are long term and they can be fairly deleterious. (I6)

Rules

Jy wil kom jy wil jouself geniet, jy en jou man en jou kinders. Nie die wet en daai wet, daar is te veel

wette op ons. Is ek reg? Te veel wette in, daai klomp wette maak swaar vir die mense en hy

maak nie net die lewe swaar vir die arm mense nie hy maak ook swaar vir die rykes. Want

almal blame nou die rykes, n. Maar ons rondom ons kyk nie mooi wat kan ons doen laat jy

ook miskien bietjie rykdom kry. (I5)

They think they came to the party, but they put monumental barriers in the way on environmental

grounds. (I18)

Well they certainly doing the best they can under very difficult circumstances. They have difficulties in

terms of contact with the public, because theyre not highly thought of, lots of antagonism.

And theyre constrained by these rather strange South African requirement that theyd be

profitable. I think thats disastrous, a National Park should never be profitable. Ja, so their

management is again and again, their management has to take cognizance with the need to

be profitable. Well I think thats a bit wrong, doesnt happen anywhere else in the world. (I18)

Ek het probleme, met die government mense, en ek het baie probleme, ek het ek se vir jou ek fines

hierso elke keer as ek op die hof kom. Hulle skryf vir my, hier by Goukamma skryf hulle vir

my. Ek gaan dit net hier vir u mooi verduidelik. Hulle skryf vir my op Wilderness, sea fisheries,

see vissery in Knysna, omdat die oggend wat ek opstaan, ons moet bel in die oggend, in die

oggend wat ek opstaan toe bel ek, die Saterdag. Hulle antwoord nie hulle phones nie. Maar

hier in, in my kontrak staan n kantoor nommer hulle gee ons elke plek se kantoor nommer.

Hulle kom daar ek se ek het gebel maar daar was nie antwoord nie. Hulle kom hulle skryf my

in Wilderness n R1500 hulle vat n sak en n half oesters van my, ek se vir hulle man hier het

ek net n kantoor nommer, julle was nie op kantoor nie. Ek gaan hof toe. In George, die hof

dismiss die saak. Hulle se hulle het nie gronde nie dis net. Ek kom hier by Goukamma hulle

skryf vir my in n stukkie gebied wat hulle nou se is deel van reservaat. Dit was nog nooit deel

van die reservaat nie. Ek is weer hof toe, weer prokereur ons wen ook daai saak. Nou ek

moet n prokureur betaal. My oesters word weggevat. Spesiaal, ek is eerlik, ek het met die

outjies, die Wilderness maar met seevisserye en Knysna het ek n helse probleem. (I13)

Resistance to change

Resistance to change. () En dit is n groot ding. Hy moet daardie teenvoeters oorkom voordat hy,

() Hy het groot idees. Ek en hy het gesit en gesls, lekker gesit en gesels met hom, maar

sy hande is gebind. () Personeel. Hulle het sulke, ek kan net s weird ideas about

management. Dis ongelooflik. Ek weet nie waar hulle, hulle idees vandaan kry nie, maar dis

nie bestuur nie. Kyk n bestuur of dit nou in die private sektor is en of dit in die regering is, min

of meer dieselfde. Nie met hierdie ouens nie. Hulle het hulle eie ding en hulle neem aanstoot.

As jy na hulle toe gaan en s hoor hierso jy doen verkeerd dan loop hy reguit op na sy baas

toe en gaan kla hy. () So jy weet, nou Mzwai is, hy is totaal afhanklik van sy werksmense.

Nou s sy werksmense ons gaan strike of ons gaan sit en dan sit hulle. Ons sal met

hoofkantoor praat. Jy sien dis state unions. So sy hande is gebind. Hy het goeie idees. ()

Wil niks weet nie. (I35)

Salience of issue

I have been here 20 odd years and we have always had public involvement in what we do, we just

tend to find that the place that it is happening or the issues that are being discussed change

over time. I mean when I first came down here there was a lot of public opinion and

expressions made about the management of the Touw system. And it just so happen that at

that stage there were quite a few people living in that area who had an interest or wished to

be involved not least of which our ex-prime minister. You know so in those days it was all to

do with the management of the Touw system and the impact of the railway bridge and things

like that and the impact of the N2 bridge and so it went on and on and on. A lot of those

issues have now, I wouldn't say disappeared, the people have disappeared, a lot of them

have actually died. But you know the concerns that were being raised over pollution or

perceived pollution of that system have now abated. We addressed them, we commissioned

a huge study or a huge study was commissioned put it that way in terms to address these

things. We knew that they weren't really a problem but to alleviate people's concerns it was

done. It was funded by water affairs in those days. Now the issues are somewhere else and

things like that. So there has always been involvement it is just different people over different

times and different things. So different issues. (I6)

Probably not to the same extent. Look there has been instances before there had been incidences of

genuine pollution events and things like that with issues going wrong up in the catchment it is

the dairy farms and so forth and you had some people that would take absolute exception to

things like that and be aware of it and would try and get involved in it but what you tend to find

is that if things like that don't affect people directly or they don't perceive them as effecting

them directly the amount of involvement in it is properly very short lived. They would get up

and make a stand and it is solved and it dies down but even if it is not solved but if it if it

doesnt affect you personally its difficult to maintain that level of interest. For me I have to

maintain that level of interest because it is affecting the system that I am part of being

involved with managing. So you know the big issues have been those which have effect

people directly. There direct property, whether it is their rose gardens being washed away in

Wilderness or other things in Sedgefield and so forth. (), it is not as if the incident have

changed it is just public perception of them and public involvement changes when it effects

them more. But the instances are still there and we still have to deal with it and that is also

what people don't tend to always appreciate. There is lots of these things going on all of the

time that we have to deal with. It is not just the ones that people are screaming about

because it affects them personally, it is that require attention it is all of them in different ways.

(I6)

Yes, and Ill tell you I think thats what shocked the owner. He decided that he was going to have

public meetings and he started off with a public meeting at the Wilderness Hotel and I think he

was absolutely overwhelmed, not only by the number of people who attended, but the

expertise of the people who attended, because he thought he was coming to all these old

doddery whatevers. He was confronted with questions he had not even considered and then

he went on to another meeting, now I attended as many meetings as I could and I definitely

found by the time he got to the Sedgefield meeting he polished up his act, because now he

done it at the Wilderness, done it in George, he done it in Knysna, he done it in Plett and then

he came back and did it in Sedgefield. By the time he got to Sedgefield he knew what he was

being confronted with and I mean it was four and a half years of continual meetings, continual

petitions, continual all sorts of things, fights, even sort of bribery in a way, you know, offers of

bribery. Just to try and get everybody to be cooperative. (I17)

Ja, 2009/10 is ons deur n verskriklike droogte. Dit word geskat uit hierdie spesialiste dat dit n een uit

130 jaar droogte was. Ons het baie lesse geleer uit daai droogte uit. Daar is n klomp goed

wat inderhaas in plek gestel moes word. Kontak met die publiek, bewus makings veldtogte, al

daai goed. Uit n bestuurs oogpunt was dit n nagmerrie gewees.

Hoe was die samewerking van die publiek se kant af. Het julle gesukkel om die mense aan boord te

kry?

Nee, baie goed. Onse gemiddelde daaglikse aanvraag was in die orde van 35 mega lt per dag voor

die droogte. En ons het daai aanvraag af gebring, man seker binne die bestek van 4/5

maande het ons dit afgebring na tussen 20 en 25 mega lt n dag. Dis n groot dinges daai.

Waterwese se voorskrif was dat die beperking wat hulle ingestel het was n 40% reduction in

water consumption. Ons sin was, was meer as dit gewees. (I1)

Yes, but I think what my take on is on it. Not to respond when the crises is to big, but to avoid the

crises. (I3)

Then when () came, I mean it was really, it was like a battle all the time, because he just had his

ideas and they werent, they didnt fit in the area. So, that made a big difference, but what it

also did, the positive effect was to bring us all together. So we were united in some function

and now I think this, the fact that theres been crime and thats also brought us all to be more

aware of each other. So that if something happens we will definitely respond, ja. So that has

also been a good thing. (I17)

Ive enjoyed the interaction here. Ive enjoyed the openness and its given me a bit of a new insight

under this problem of public participation which I strongly believe in and how it can be

fostered and I think, (), I agree with him, its the issue that brings about participation,

although powerful characters like PW and Jack Ruben can certainly facilitate that, there has

to be an issue first and these issues are very different depending on your social, economical,

educational background () (WS)

Soos ek se elkeen kom somtyds met sy eie agenda where can I benefit as hy nie kan nie dan is

oraait los dan liewer vir my dan gaan ek liewers my eie dinge doen. (I4)

If I can make a couple of comments. Well two things actually. One is the, much of the local comment

is that Parks Board feels that they own various which are in fact public resources, rather than

acting as guardians of it or of those areas and thats something that boils quite a lot within the

community. Theres another aspect as well and that is that the Ratepayers of Sedgefield have

tried for quite a number of years now to arrange for public access to the Swartvlei for

instance. There is some to the river, but its only to the Swartvlei, the lake. On two proposals

which were made through the Ratepayers on the lake were actually stopped by Parks Board.

Its those sorts of things, remotely they didnt come along and say why they wanted to stop it.

It was just simply no we rejected that application. Its that sort of thing. (WS)

But you see thats a typical example. Theres no liaison with SANParks so you dont know why theyre

not that, I mean at the Wilderness for example that green bank that theyve fenced off there,

the coloured population from George uses that very consistently over weekends and the

summer and then SANParks said, oh theyre going to put a gate up and charge you. So they

dont go there now. Now okay they might have a tight budget but and you know this business

of access to the water, Im just hoping with this new Integrated Coastal Management Act

access is apparently a big thing in that, and Im just hoping that theres going to be pressure

put on them through that ICM to provide access to Swartvlei because the big problem is all

around Swartvlei is all privately owned. () But you know we dont have any sort of

opportunity to sit and discuss with them why. I mean I can bring up something like that, Ive

done it at this liaison committee they go to and they say oh no we dont know anything about

that and this is the problem that I dont know who is making those decisions but it would

appear that the local people are not empowered to make decisions that affect them. (I29)

Set of knowledge

() you have people that possible, again want to go back to that, go the trouble to equip themselves

with the facts and they realize okay well what we thought was the situation is possible not

really it, or we need to change our way of looking at this or thinking about it, because there is

legislation or there are plans in place and these people are trying to manage the situation, but

we also need to come to the party. You know so that sort of move things forward, but at the

end of the day you know what the main thing and discussion that we had with authorities at

that time and us as managers are the problem, was that there needed to be a mindset change

and until people change their way they thought about things or their mindset it wasnt going to

really progress forward. (I31)

So, they use to look at these things and say it is polluted and then they use to also look at the same

time, oo gee the estuary is closed and the water is therefore stagnant. Stagnant was a word

that was often used and if the water is perceived to be stagnant, which I assume they mean it

was not moving therefore it is unhealthy, because there would be no oxygen and things like

that despite the fact that you would find there is high oxygen concentration during those

period. () rather than low so it was people raising what they consider legitimate concerns

about issues that they thought would affect this environment that they liked, or was in front of

their door step or where they wanted to fish or swim or whatever. But which won't necessarily

always accurate. And we had to deal with that in a certain way and part of the way was to

have discussions with these people. I mean that is part of the reason why I write popular

articles and things like that. () So that people could better understand it. Some sort of

involvement are sort of less successful than others. (I6)

I wish that it was that kind of thing and that the reality of it is that it might be, but it is not that easy to

actually kind of, ja, to see it like that. Look, I struggle a lot with the authorities because they

except for (), you know they dont really do things the way I see things. In that case I say I

because a lot of people even in our committee maybe dont see things the way I do, but there

are, thereve been so many bad decisions taken that I think they do affect like the

environment like very negatively and I just, it surprises me that sometimes the authorities

cant see that and that makes me sad, and it makes me, so I have to do what I have to do, I

mean it is like you can call it a curse or a blessing or whatever, you know, but you know

something then the worse is later to walk away and say I couldve done something about that.

There are examples of things that I couldve done stuff about that I didnt, but and the sad

thing is like we shouldnt have to. (I7)

But I think people are now seeing that theres a lot more to it than just that and that it is incredibly

important that we have dialog with SANParks about it, so that there isnt animosity here,

because they would dig their heels in and say we only open the river mouth when the water is

at 2m or 1.8. You can understand their position when they had nothing but insults from the

community. () At that meeting, I think that was probably the turning point for () fan club,

you know, he sort of stood up at the end and dug his heels in and said you know youre

talking absolute rubbish, you dont know what youre talking about sort of thing. I think then

people realize, because this guy has come to talk about it, to have dialog and you know ()

was trying to shut it down. (I32)

And so, () wants to keep the river mouth open all the time. The environmentalist say no that is bad

for the system. The river must do its natural thing. It must closed, and that so forth. Certainly

when the river mouth is open the water quality is more salty and more fresh and so forth. So

he says its good for the environment to be open all the time. I dont know if it is, its not my

expertise, but a lot of people say, look its so much cleaner when the mouth is open, its a

good thing. So that makes him very believable. And it is true that if the river mouth is open it

starts flooding, but the other means he is really proposing I dont really believe it, but the

people are not technical enough to criticize it. (I3)

I suppose, retrospectively it is a better solution than what I first suggested, and so, Parks Board have

been correct there in stopping us putting man made measures into the lagoon. So, I then, I

respect them sometimes but not for their office block and not for their big 4x4s. (I3)

Some people come in with having already made their minds up. What they are seeing and have

concluded is accurate and no matter what you provide them will be good enough to () alter

their view point. Others are much more open minded and sort of open to information that may

sway their view point. So some are successful and some are not. But ya, you deal with it and

there are other issues and things like that one has to deal with. You know the current one is

as you know SV mouth management and things like that. (I6)

Die, ek onthou nie meer wie die persoon was nie, maar hy maak toe n, hy s vir my ja maar man die

bietjie wat ons ookal gebruik kan nie n impak h op die mere en wat ookal nie. Maar dit is

ook lank terug. Dit is seker al 20 jaar terug. Ek onthou nou nie hoe lank terug dit was nie.

Op daai stadium sou ek ook, jy weet ek het nie gedink hys heeltemal stupid as hy dit nou s

nie. Ek het net gedink hy is n bietjie oningelig want eintlik was daar toe al meer water gebruik

as wat vroer die geval was of voor, jy weet wat ooit in die bestaan was. Kyk hier was nie

eintlik vreeslik water en goed uit die riviere ontrek voor ons krag gekry het nie en dit was eers,

Eskom krag is eers in 1991 hier, 1981 hiernatoe versprei. (I26)

Maar nou s hulle n Steenbras moet vanaf die vinger tot hier wees. Nou waar sal ek vir daai

Steenbras, die nette is lankal weg met daai Steenbrasse. Nee elke vis se grootte moet jou

armlengte wees, maar nou vat hulle nie hier op die armpies van ons nie. Hulle vat hulle se

vreeslike lang derms. Die langste Stompneus wat jy kan gebruik moet so groot soos hulle

hand wees. Soos hulle hande, want daai vis waarmee Meraai gevang is, is so groot soos my

hand. (I16)

Hulle sal, Oooh, ek het probleme met daai tweetjies. Mervin en Esleen. Maar kyk nou elke

vergadering, hulle is nooit op die vergadering nie. Elke vergadering wat die officials kom uit

die Kaap uit dan moet hulle verteenwoordig. Want hulle is die span wat ons, die oestermense

verteenwoordig die kant, so hulle moet. Kyk as daar veranderings kom of wat at least hulle

moet die eerste mense wees. Hy moenie by my hoor langs die see, hallo daar het n

verandering gekom nie. Dis nie, daar begin die gestreiery nou nie. N: So jy voel hulle kom nie

na die meetings toe nie so hulle is nie in kontak met julle nie. Julle vertel vir hulle van

veranderings en nie anders om nie. Ja, kyk hulle verteenwoordig ons so hulle is die eerste

wat met die vergadering moet bywoon. Sien, so as daar vir enige iets veranderings kom of

wat ook reels wat gebuig word of wat dan moet hulle weet, sien. Nou kom dit so aan ek trap

bietjie op hulle tone ma ek, ek hou my nou vir wat ek wil nou vir hulle ronds. Ek se nee dit is

nie so nie ek sit net vir julle feite neer maar julle wil nie. Maar ek se daai outjies even van

aanslae jy ken mos aanslae, goeie mense, goeie mense. Ons kom honderd oor die weg. Met

hulle kom ons honderd oor die weg. Maar nou, met die, ons moet vir hulle ook gebel want die

meeste van die tyd werk ons in hulle gebied. Toe se die span nou, nee ons moet vir hulle bel.

(I13)

Silent voices

The forum has never been represented of the poorer community. It is every now and again people

would hook into some () people, be black be coloured and people would come along. And a

lot of other people would come and go. Maybe they will be there for two or three meetings

and they would realise what are they doing here, they are not changing anything and there

would be transport issues and so forth and so there would be, I would imagine there would

be, I would imagine there would be (...) communities who are sharing one water pipe and they

are carrying buckets whatever. The forum has never been able to attract those people and

keep them. And it is probably a big social divide that the people just don't understand each

other. So silent communities I would imagine they in certainly in the urban environment here

in Sedgefield, Smutsville there are pockets of community there that don't have access to

running water. They are uninvolved in the forum and in the rural community. I speculate there

are lots of people without water that aren't involved. They are not using the forum as a means

to push for sustainable water. They probably use more political routes. If anything at all. (I3)

I didnt really meet them but it was interesting, it was the first time Ive ever been to one of these

meetings where lets say that side of the community was there to have a voice and it was nice

to see it and my comment to several of the people who were there as well was how nice to

see that they took the effort to come to the meeting and they gave the odd opinions, they

didnt say much but hopefully they took something away from it as well. (I29)

Look there is a lot of people who are vehemently opposed to what we do some of them have valid

reasons, others might just be vehemently opposed because it is us who are doing it, and

there is going to be other who probably have a better grasp of what we are doing and why we

are doing it. There is a whole bunch of people you can go and speak to, so if you want to get

a whole range of different viewpoints. You will find that every person that you speak to will

give you a different viewpoint. Allot of their viewpoints understandably would be how it

impacts on their live. And that is the way it probably always would be a