making use of what is said:

Making Use of What is Making Use of What is Said:Said:

The Meaning and Value of The Meaning and Value of Testimonial EvidenceTestimonial Evidence

Course OutlineCourse Outline

““Eye” is for Interviewing:Eye” is for Interviewing: How we Communicate: The RulesHow we Communicate: The Rules Victims, Witnesses, Suspects – As Victims, Witnesses, Suspects – As

SourcesSources Information of Interest to Investigators Information of Interest to Investigators

and How we Get Itand How we Get It Analyzing the Information You HaveAnalyzing the Information You Have

Course OutlineCourse Outline

Forensic Interviewing Best PracticesForensic Interviewing Best Practices General ConsiderationsGeneral Considerations ParticipantsParticipants Conducting a Forensic InterviewConducting a Forensic Interview Special TopicsSpecial Topics

Course OutlineCourse Outline

Understanding RecantationUnderstanding Recantation How Children CommunicateHow Children Communicate The Nature of DisclosuresThe Nature of Disclosures Complaint CorroborationComplaint Corroboration Victimology: Facing the Probability of Victimology: Facing the Probability of

an Evolutionan Evolution Understanding RecantationUnderstanding Recantation

Course OutlineCourse Outline

Interrogation of Suspects and Interrogation of Suspects and Testifying on ConfessionsTestifying on Confessions Interview vs. InterrogationInterview vs. Interrogation Distinguishing Between True and False Distinguishing Between True and False

ConfessionsConfessions Testifying on a ConfessionTestifying on a Confession

But First, A Little PhilosophyBut First, A Little Philosophy

The Criminal Investigator…The Criminal Investigator…

Must not be Must not be opinionated, tainted opinionated, tainted with prejudice, or with prejudice, or prone to pre-prone to pre-judgmentjudgment

Must have an eye Must have an eye for details, and the for details, and the ability to recognize ability to recognize and evaluate and evaluate evidenceevidence

The great thing about America The great thing about America is…is…

The greatest thing about being The greatest thing about being a criminal investigator is….a criminal investigator is….

You get to be the person who You get to be the person who searches for the truth, no matter searches for the truth, no matter what the truth holds, who it what the truth holds, who it implicates, who is exonerates, who it implicates, who is exonerates, who it pleases or displeases. And, you pleases or displeases. And, you rarely have to make the tough rarely have to make the tough decisions. You just search for truth decisions. You just search for truth in every way it speaks. in every way it speaks.

The Cases are Real: The The Cases are Real: The People are Somebody’s …People are Somebody’s …

Where to begin…Where to begin…

““I have no idea yet. It is a cardinal I have no idea yet. It is a cardinal sin to theorize before one has data, sin to theorize before one has data, for in so doing, one begins to twist for in so doing, one begins to twist the facts to suit the theories, instead the facts to suit the theories, instead of the theories to suit the facts.”of the theories to suit the facts.”

Sherlock HolmesSherlock Holmes

Things are not alwaysThings are not alwaysas they appear…as they appear…

Sometimesthey are…

TRAINING

REALITY

Special Agent J.D. CromerSpecial Agent J.D. Cromer

ICIAF Profiler UnderstudyICIAF Profiler Understudy

Virginia State PoliceVirginia State PoliceBureau of Criminal Bureau of Criminal

InvestigationInvestigationGeneral Investigation SectionGeneral Investigation Section

Violent Crimes UnitViolent Crimes Unit

Appomattox DivisionAppomattox Division540.332.7980540.332.7980

jon.cromer@vsp.virginia.govjon.cromer@vsp.virginia.gov

“EYE” is for Interviewing

How We Communicate: How We Communicate: The Rules, Regardless of the The Rules, Regardless of the

ProblemProblem1.1. Do not give up the information!Do not give up the information!

2.2. Don’t Lie, That’s Bad!Don’t Lie, That’s Bad!

3.3. Don’t stand there, say Don’t stand there, say something….just not everything!something….just not everything!

4.4. Don’t arouse suspicion!Don’t arouse suspicion!

5.5. Don’t provoke a conflict!Don’t provoke a conflict!

6.6. Make this whole thing go away!Make this whole thing go away!

And this works with WHO?And this works with WHO?

Everybody:Everybody: Victims / ComplainantsVictims / Complainants SuspectsSuspects WitnessesWitnesses ……Your spouse, children…but, don’t you Your spouse, children…but, don’t you

dare!dare!

How We Learned to Lie…From How We Learned to Lie…From our Parents!our Parents!

The “Pickle Story”….”Daddy, Where’s The “Pickle Story”….”Daddy, Where’s the soap?”the soap?” Parent: “Don’t lie to me!”Parent: “Don’t lie to me!”

Behind the lady with the weight Behind the lady with the weight problem at the grocery store…problem at the grocery store… Parent: “Shut up!”Parent: “Shut up!”

The Lesson is Complete!The Lesson is Complete!

Why it WorksWhy it Works

Everyone wants to tell everyone else the Everyone wants to tell everyone else the truth all the time…but if he/she can’t…truth all the time…but if he/she can’t… The most difficult way to lie is to use The most difficult way to lie is to use

First Person, Past Tense, SingularFirst Person, Past Tense, Singular ““I didn’t do it!”I didn’t do it!”

So, what are the liar’s options?So, what are the liar’s options? Avoid FP/PT/S; for example…Avoid FP/PT/S; for example…

Third Person or Passive Language or Omit PronounsThird Person or Passive Language or Omit Pronouns Present or Future TensePresent or Future Tense ““It was done” TechniqueIt was done” Technique

““Distance”Distance”

““We went to the movies last night”We went to the movies last night” Had fun, liked it, like your spouse, your kind of Had fun, liked it, like your spouse, your kind of

moviemovie ““My wife and I went to the movies last night.”My wife and I went to the movies last night.”

Good, but not as good as aboveGood, but not as good as above ““I went to the movies last night with my wife”I went to the movies last night with my wife”

Notice: “I…………………………….my wife.”Notice: “I…………………………….my wife.” Didn’t have fun, or don’t really like your spouse, or Didn’t have fun, or don’t really like your spouse, or

not your kind of movienot your kind of movie

Other Proximity of Pro/nouns Other Proximity of Pro/nouns ObservationsObservations

““My husband, Cindy and I…”My husband, Cindy and I…”

Other Proximity of Pro/nouns Other Proximity of Pro/nouns ObservationsObservations

““My husband, Cindy and I…”My husband, Cindy and I…” Cindy is between “my husband” & “I”Cindy is between “my husband” & “I”

The odds are, especially if this occurs The odds are, especially if this occurs multiple times, that “Cindy” is multiple times, that “Cindy” is between “my husband” and “I” in between “my husband” and “I” in more ways than just on the paper. more ways than just on the paper.

A Bit of Trivia…A Bit of Trivia…

““You can’t You can’t eat your cakeeat your cake and and have it have it tootoo.”.”

Analyzing the StatementAnalyzing the Statement

Test of Structure (Distribution of Test of Structure (Distribution of Time)Time)

Test of PronounsTest of Pronouns Test of LanguageTest of Language ConnectionsConnections

Analyzing the StatementAnalyzing the Statement

Distribution of Time:Distribution of Time:

Time Before the Event / Main IssueTime Before the Event / Main Issue Time devoted to the Event / Main IssueTime devoted to the Event / Main Issue Time After the Event / Main IssueTime After the Event / Main Issue

Time is reflected in words / percent of total wordsTime is reflected in words / percent of total words

Analyzing the Statement:Analyzing the Statement:Distribution of TimeDistribution of Time

Target Distribution: 20-50-30Target Distribution: 20-50-30 If Before>30-40%, Event>65%, or If Before>30-40%, Event>65%, or

After>Event = Deception is likelyAfter>Event = Deception is likely 85% Deceptive Statements: Before>After85% Deceptive Statements: Before>After Truthful Format:Truthful Format:

Pre<30%Pre<30% Event>PreEvent>Pre Event>PostEvent>Post Post>PrePost>Pre

Analyzing the StatementAnalyzing the Statement

Rate of Story…Words/Lines per Hour of Rate of Story…Words/Lines per Hour of StoryStory 3 lines per hour is average3 lines per hour is average Slowing down (more lines per hour) = Slowing down (more lines per hour) =

subject likely going to lie later in the storysubject likely going to lie later in the story Speeding up (fewer lines per hour) = Speeding up (fewer lines per hour) =

subject like is lying nowsubject like is lying now Average Statement is 1 ½ pages (25 lines)Average Statement is 1 ½ pages (25 lines) [We will discuss “Obtaining the Statement” later][We will discuss “Obtaining the Statement” later]

Analyzing the StatementAnalyzing the StatementPronounsPronouns

Missing “We” – no “we” by ½ way Missing “We” – no “we” by ½ way means under a lot of pressuremeans under a lot of pressure

Unknown “We” – other person not Unknown “We” – other person not identified signals bad relationshipidentified signals bad relationship

““With” implies distance; re: an activity…With” implies distance; re: an activity…the persons don’t usually do this activity the persons don’t usually do this activity “with” each other, compare:“with” each other, compare: ““I had dinner with my wife.”I had dinner with my wife.” ““My wife and I ate dinner.”My wife and I ate dinner.”

Analyzing the StatementAnalyzing the StatementPronounsPronouns

Talking with…Talking with… Living with…Living with…

The above styles could indicate conflictThe above styles could indicate conflict

My vs. The – (Missing Possessive) My vs. The – (Missing Possessive)

A word about “Talking”…A word about “Talking”… Talked / Spoke vs. Said / ToldTalked / Spoke vs. Said / Told

Analyzing the StatementAnalyzing the StatementLanguageLanguage

Specifically, Changes in LanguageSpecifically, Changes in Language 3:1 is almost certain deception (If unjustified)3:1 is almost certain deception (If unjustified)

““I left my I left my carcar in the lot…the in the lot…the carcar was there at was there at lunch time…some mentioned seeing the lunch time…some mentioned seeing the carcar at some point in the afternoon…I discovered at some point in the afternoon…I discovered my my vehiclevehicle missing…” missing…”

Justified vs. Unjustified changesJustified vs. Unjustified changes

(Examples)(Examples)

Analyzing the StatementAnalyzing the StatementConnectionsConnections

Links in thoughts in statement, example:Links in thoughts in statement, example:““I went downstairs to the I went downstairs to the kitchenkitchen. . After After entering theentering the kitchenkitchen I made the coffee…” I made the coffee…”

What is happening in the subject’s mind…What is happening in the subject’s mind…Signal of “Missing Time or Information”Signal of “Missing Time or Information”Key Words: Key Words: Later on; sometime later; shortly Later on; sometime later; shortly

thereafter; Afterwards; After; The next thing I thereafter; Afterwards; After; The next thing I remember/knowremember/know

Getting StartedGetting Started Type, double-space, number linesType, double-space, number lines Circle pronounsCircle pronouns ““Box” & Highlight & Connect:Box” & Highlight & Connect:

PersonsPersons Unimportant InfoUnimportant InfoConnectionsConnections Unnecessary LinkUnnecessary Link““Leave”Leave” (Out-of-Sequence Info) (Out-of-Sequence Info)Why wordsWhy words Exact Locations ofExact Locations ofNegatively worded phrasesNegatively worded phrases sit, sleep, stand sit, sleep, standEmotionsEmotions Changes in Changes in

LanguageLanguageSaid/Told/Talk/SpokeSaid/Told/Talk/Spoke

Information of Interest to Information of Interest to Investigators & How to Get itInvestigators & How to Get it

Pure Version Statement vs. Q&APure Version Statement vs. Q&A Proper solicitation of Pure Version StatementProper solicitation of Pure Version Statement Questions solicitor will likely faceQuestions solicitor will likely face

More than Just “Elements of the Offense”More than Just “Elements of the Offense” Basic LE Training, interviewing Rape victimsBasic LE Training, interviewing Rape victims

Behaviorally Oriented Interview: A Protocol for Behaviorally Oriented Interview: A Protocol for Interviewing Surviving Victims of Sexually Interviewing Surviving Victims of Sexually Motivated CrimesMotivated Crimes Physical Behavior of the OffenderPhysical Behavior of the Offender Verbal Behavior of the OffenderVerbal Behavior of the Offender Sexual Behavior of the OffenderSexual Behavior of the Offender

Cognitive Interviewing: Obtaining the DetailsCognitive Interviewing: Obtaining the Details

Analyzing the InformationAnalyzing the Information

Validating the Statements INTERNALLYValidating the Statements INTERNALLY Scientific Content Analysis (SCAn)Scientific Content Analysis (SCAn) Yuille Validity AnalysisYuille Validity Analysis

Validating the Statement EXTERNALLYValidating the Statement EXTERNALLY Does the testimonial evidence match the Does the testimonial evidence match the

physical evidencephysical evidence Abe Lincoln in the pasture…Abe Lincoln in the pasture…

Forensic InterviewingForensic Interviewing

I wasn’t interested. . .I wasn’t interested. . .

I wanted to investigate death. I was sure I wanted to investigate death. I was sure that would be more exciting, and more that would be more exciting, and more important sounding.important sounding.

The fact is, I was intimidated by the case: The fact is, I was intimidated by the case: the child interview (Some seasoned Social the child interview (Some seasoned Social Worker will probably be watching)Worker will probably be watching)

The fact is, I was thinking, “With a child’s The fact is, I was thinking, “With a child’s word, who can ever be for sure if “it” word, who can ever be for sure if “it” happened or not?”happened or not?”

My Experience. . .My Experience. . .

I thoroughly enjoy the coordinated / multi-I thoroughly enjoy the coordinated / multi-disciplined, (Task Force) approach to the disciplined, (Task Force) approach to the casescases

Very few go to trialVery few go to trial I have found tremendous satisfaction in I have found tremendous satisfaction in

solving one of these cases through: good solving one of these cases through: good medical evidence, productive child medical evidence, productive child interviews, and a confessioninterviews, and a confession

These cases do have happy endingsThese cases do have happy endings

My TheoryMy Theory

Investigation of Child Sexual / Physical Investigation of Child Sexual / Physical Assault is not for everyone.Assault is not for everyone.

But, the Officers who complain about But, the Officers who complain about these cases have probably these cases have probably never never worked oneworked one, OR , OR never worked one never worked one successfullysuccessfully, OR , OR never found something never found something they wouldn’t complain about.they wouldn’t complain about.

I always wanted to know…I always wanted to know…

What are the details of the disclosure?What are the details of the disclosure? Timing is everything…Mike Schmidt at batTiming is everything…Mike Schmidt at bat Option 7, Book Report… Option 7, Book Report… Izzy’s FireIzzy’s Fire

What “nuggets” are there in the story?What “nuggets” are there in the story? Percussion fired, black powder, muzzle loading Percussion fired, black powder, muzzle loading

rifle…and the rifle…and the nipple wrench. nipple wrench.

Both questions will be answered by a Both questions will be answered by a proper investigationproper investigation

Forensic Interview:Forensic Interview:Best PracticesBest Practices

A Forensic Interview is an essential A Forensic Interview is an essential component of the fact-finding process. component of the fact-finding process. The goal of the interview is to obtain a The goal of the interview is to obtain a statement from a child in a statement from a child in a developmentally sensitive, unbiased, developmentally sensitive, unbiased, and truth-seeking manner that will and truth-seeking manner that will support accurate and fair decision-support accurate and fair decision-making processes in the criminal justice making processes in the criminal justice system.system.

General ConsiderationsGeneral Considerations

LocationLocation The Child’s NeedsThe Child’s Needs The InterviewerThe Interviewer Case Specific RecommendationsCase Specific Recommendations

ParticipantsParticipants

Deciding who should / should not be Deciding who should / should not be present at the interviewpresent at the interview

Clarifying RolesClarifying Roles

Documenting the InterviewDocumenting the Interview

OptionsOptions Note taking, audio, video, some Note taking, audio, video, some

combinationcombination How to decide?How to decide?

Considerations when Considerations when Conducting a Forensic Conducting a Forensic

InterviewInterview Child Development ConsiderationsChild Development Considerations Sex of the ChildSex of the Child Culture and Ethnicity of the ChildCulture and Ethnicity of the Child Family Background and Parental ReactionsFamily Background and Parental Reactions Health Status and HistoryHealth Status and History Educational Status and HistoryEducational Status and History Behavioral Patterns and Possible Behavioral Patterns and Possible

Psychological Disorders and/or Psychological Disorders and/or MedicationsMedications

Child’s Personality and TemperamentChild’s Personality and Temperament

Interview ProtocolInterview Protocol

Initial ContactInitial Contact Establishing RapportEstablishing Rapport Interview GuidelinesInterview Guidelines Developmental AssessmentsDevelopmental Assessments Establishing the Child’s Testimonial CapacityEstablishing the Child’s Testimonial Capacity Introduction of the Topic of ConcernIntroduction of the Topic of Concern Free NarrativeFree Narrative Open-Ended QuestioningOpen-Ended Questioning Clarification QuestionsClarification Questions Concluding the InterviewConcluding the Interview

Special TopicsSpecial Topics

Questions about TimeQuestions about Time Interview Aids – ConsiderationsInterview Aids – Considerations Children with Special NeedsChildren with Special Needs Cultural IssuesCultural Issues Defense / Coping MechanismsDefense / Coping Mechanisms Language ConsiderationsLanguage Considerations

Understanding RecantationUnderstanding Recantation

How Children CommunicateHow Children Communicate

Understanding RecantationUnderstanding Recantation

The Nature of DisclosuresThe Nature of Disclosures

Understanding RecantationUnderstanding Recantation

Complaint CorroborationComplaint Corroboration

Understanding RecantationUnderstanding Recantation

Victimology: Facing the Probability Victimology: Facing the Probability of an Evolutionof an Evolution

Understanding RecantationUnderstanding Recantation

Specifically:Specifically: Handling the Initial RecantationHandling the Initial Recantation

This isn’t a game of This isn’t a game of OLD MAIDOLD MAID!! Corroboration of “Version Two”, if applicableCorroboration of “Version Two”, if applicable What if Recantation is the Inconsistency?What if Recantation is the Inconsistency? What it Means to Your CaseWhat it Means to Your Case Prosecutorial ConsiderationsProsecutorial Considerations

Going Forward?Going Forward? Using Expert WitnessesUsing Expert Witnesses

Most IMPORTANTLY, avoiding the tendency to IMMEDIATELY Most IMPORTANTLY, avoiding the tendency to IMMEDIATELY believebelieve the Recantation… the Recantation…

““Unfounded”Unfounded”““Closed Exception – Prosecution Declined”Closed Exception – Prosecution Declined”““Closed Exception – Victim Refused to Cooperate”Closed Exception – Victim Refused to Cooperate”

Interrogation of Suspects & Interrogation of Suspects & Testifying on ConfessionsTestifying on Confessions

Interview & Interrogation: The DifferencesInterview & Interrogation: The Differences Distinguishing Between True and False Distinguishing Between True and False

ConfessionsConfessions Categories of False ConfessionsCategories of False Confessions Confessions VoluntarinessConfessions Voluntariness Confession TrustworthinessConfession Trustworthiness Confession CorroborationConfession Corroboration Interrogation ResearchInterrogation Research Interrogation Law and Confession LawInterrogation Law and Confession Law

Interrogation of Suspects & Interrogation of Suspects & Testifying on ConfessionsTestifying on Confessions

Testifying on a ConfessionTestifying on a Confession Testimony PreparationTestimony Preparation The Court’s View of WitnessesThe Court’s View of Witnesses The Witness’s Behavioral ResponsesThe Witness’s Behavioral Responses Direct TestimonyDirect Testimony Cross ExaminationCross Examination

The IcingThe Icing

““A Confession and a Handshake”A Confession and a Handshake” Creating a situation in which Creating a situation in which

someone feels compelled to confess someone feels compelled to confess to a sexual or physical assault of a to a sexual or physical assault of a child will be one of your greatest child will be one of your greatest challenges as a law enforcement challenges as a law enforcement officer. And when you succeed, one officer. And when you succeed, one of your greatest rewards.of your greatest rewards.

Suggestions, generally:Suggestions, generally: Work with the Prosecutor early onWork with the Prosecutor early on Plan your interview / interrogation of the Plan your interview / interrogation of the

alleged abuser:alleged abuser: Know where you will find them and pre-scout Know where you will find them and pre-scout

an interview locationan interview location Quick approach and interview- this is not one Quick approach and interview- this is not one

of those times you leave a card and say, “Call of those times you leave a card and say, “Call Me.”Me.”

Always consider Other Jurisdictions…Find Always consider Other Jurisdictions…Find Them!Them!

We have a job to do. It isn’t always pleasant, but it is our duty to do it anyway. And, we must do more than simply show-up. We must prepare, and work diligently, in order that we may do a better job tomorrow than we did today. I think there is no greater job in the world than looking for the truth in all things. And when we find it, we keep looking for it; just the truth, nothing more, nothing less, no matter what.