An Interview with

Steve Schlissel

by Robert J. Bailey

Q. A book recently published by Still Waters entitled Hal Lindsey & The Restoration of the Jews contains your excellent 45 page introduction called The Reformed Faith and the Jews. This book was written to counter Lindsey's false statements in The Road to Holocaust which tried to equate the Christian Reconstruction Movement with anti-Semitism. You point out that just the opposite is true and in fact, the Reformed Faith and Christian reconstructionists in particular employ the "system of prophetic interpretation that has historically furnished the Biblical basis for the most gloriouS future imaginable for the Jews!" Would you comment on that point?

A. In my opinion, dispensationalism is the biggest roadblock and stumbling block to the Jews because of the radical separation it makes between the Old and New Testaments. The Christian reconstruc-tionists with their covenantal world view, their embracing of the Old Testament law, their victorious future view in which the Jews play a primary, key role, have all the ingredients to lay the ground work for a glorious future blessed by the Holy Spirit. If He's not in it, then it amounts to nothing. But if the Holy Spirit guides us and Christ is kept before our eyes, then all the ingredients are there for quite a stupendous future--something to look forward to.

Q. Somewhere in your path of Christian growth, you were part of a dispensational group ...

A. Wasn'teveryone?

Q. A great many of us rm sure. But how is it that dispensationalism, which has a great interest in Israel, has failed to help the Jew profess Jesus as Messiah?

A. Dispensationalism has no power to challenge the Jews. I have to be careful here to emphasize that I don't mean that dispensationalists don't have Christ. And, of course, Christ is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes. But Christ did not appear in a vacuum and He did not leave us a legacy of abstractions. Rather, Christ has given us fullness of life which involves the wholehearted adherence to every Word that is given.

I think the separation of Christ's so called Gospel (which dispensationalism reduces to four Spiritual laws) from the whole Word has not only reduced the Gospel to abstractions, but has played great mischief in the Church and actually resulted in, what is in effect, no gospel at all. Christ speaks to the life not just to the heart or to the mind or to the head or the hand; He speaks to all. He speaks to us as total living beings living in the world that God created with a purpose.

When you take four spiritual laws and present them as the sum and substance of life itself----something other than the door that we walk through into this life--you take away the guts and the power of the Christian life. Dispensationalism has a motif of separation and division by which the world is handled but the Reformed Faith has a motif of the covenant which is all comprehensive and organic--it's living. ..

From a Refonned perspective, everything is seen in terms of the plan of God, the program of God, the development of God's purposes in history.

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Therefore we have both the principle . of unifOJ;lllity and the principle of differentiation and we give. heed to both whereas dispensationalism is so hung up on differentiation that it never knows what to do with the parts it comes up with. Dispensaiionalism takes all the parts and says it puts them into Christ's hands, but Christ still holds them as dead parts according to that view and not living.

On that score the Jewish community is way ahead of dispensationalists. The Jews are still Christless-I know that. And it's better to be a nrisguided dispensationalist who is going to heaven than to be smart Jew who is not. But we're talking about systems here.

The Jewish system in community is one that is covenantally organized and understood and lived and felt. So you walk through Burrow Park and you know you are in a Jewish conununity. There are Jewish stores, there are Jewish bookstores, Jewish food stores. There are Jewish places to buy objects for religious purposes. The women share common values and the men share common values. There is safety on the streets and it's a whole different world even though-it's within New York.

There is no such Christian representa,tion in New York and the reason being that Christian thinking in America is dispensational. It's every man for himself. It's scattered, it's chaotic, it's here and there. The principle is individuation and division. There is no organic reference. There is no principle in terms of which all things can be harmonized so that you can have a community of people who are covenantal.

So dispensationalism cannot reach the Jew effectively, organically, communally, corporately, or in the long run. The most they can do is reach a few Jews who are culturally Jewish but t:eally. have no regard for Judaism. 11J,ey can reach them . . When these Jews get converted, the dispensationalists make a big deal about them being Jewish. But the fact that they were Jewish meant very little to them before they were converted. So everybody sl)ould know that. They may be descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but it's not as if you really did a big deal reaching the Jew like we are anticipating based on Romans 11.

That has to come about through a covenantal church. It can only come about if the church is covenantally minded. I maintain that dispensationalism remains one of the largest obstacles to the true fruitful evangelization of my people. It is . orily the Reformed Chruches that bave sometbing to challenge the Jewish community with. :~ .

) .

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Q. How did you get involved in Christian reconstruction?

I read The Politics of Guilt and Pity and that was the end of it. (This is how it happened.) I had a subscription to Present Truth, which is an antinomian publication from California-they blasted the law constantly. At the same time I had a Calvinist friend who had gone to Covenant Seminary. He worked. for the same Jewish mission I worked for. He told me that he balanced Present Truth with Rushdoony. And 1 said "Rushdoony, that's a funny name" (since my name is Schlissel I like it when other people's names are funnier than mine). I began to wonder what Rushdoony might have to say that would counter what I was reading.

So I called Dr. Rushdoony and asked him for a book. He said that The Politics of Guilt and Pity was very important to him. So I got the book and began to read. The frrst chapter is on atonement; self-atonement and guilt. I had never read or imagined that the Bible had anything to say so relevant, so powerful to psychology, for example. Then he went on and talked about other areas of life and he just talked about it in such a natural way like, "Of course the Bible talks about this."

In my earlier days, I was taught it was prayer and guilt because we didn't pray hard enough, and then more J?tayer and more guilt because you still didn't do it nght (laughing), and evangelism so you could make other people feel as guilty as you. That was the Christian life.. Then you die and you go to heaven;

And here Rushdoony was saying that the Bible was a rich supply of godly info:nnation on how we are to live! And I just said, "Wow! Revolution!"

. .

It was a big change in my orientation. I began devouring lots of geat Christian material. I started to study the Reformed confessions and I called Dr. Bahnsen and asked him if he would tutor me in the Westminster Standards and he did. And I asked hini if he would teach me apologetics (the defense of the faith) and he did. Then I started to'meet everybody! could in the New York area who was Reformed I met Paul Szto, a Christian Reformed minister who had studied under Van Til and Murray at Westminster Seminary. Even though he has a big Chinese accent, and hasn't written anything, he is the most brilliant creative theologian I have ever met. lfe taught me a lot. He's retired now.

Q. Pispensationalism is not the only theological system where anti-law Views have affected its

approach to the Jews. How has the distinction between Lutheran and Reformed teaching on the law of God affected the Christian attitude toward the Jews since the time of the Reformation in countries where their respective theologies have been dominant?

A. All you have. to do is.Jook at the fact .that the Netherlands became a haven for the Jews m every generation _since the. Reformation. Jews were welcomed there. They were given refuge and safety and love. Even to the point that many I)utch people have given their lives to protect the Jews. On the other hand, look at Germany and what it is best known for in this generation, in this century. That, of course, is Adolf Hitler. In Germany, this is the post-Christian outworkin~ of their theology. The Lutherans being anti-law necessarily became anti-Jewish. Because you will not, you cannot, remain content to tangentalize or abstract those things to which you are opposed, but you will oppose also their sacramentalization or their incarnation. So if you are opposed to the law, you will be opposed to those people who most clearly represent the Law to you and that would be the Jews.

The Jews, at the beginning of Martin Luther's career, were the object of his pity and concern. He said that it was no wonder these poor people don't listen to the papists because they are better than the papists. He used them, I think, for porpaganda pu.rp_oses. He said this . so sympathetically incidentally that there was a contingency of three Jews who went to Luther to try to convert him to Judaism.

But later on, perhaps because he saw that his dispensational style didn't work, he became frustrated. He went to the Jews with what was in effect an abstractiort .. of the Biblical teaching and it didn't hit home with the Jews. Luther then hated the Jews and said terrible things about them. Of course, we have to remember that he said these type of things in the heat of battle about everybody equally. But he did say some nasty things, like if a Jew came to be baptized, he would tie a stone around his neck and throw him into the river. So the Jews made special note in their history that he was an anti-Semite.

As Luther's teachings against the law became incorporated into the German mindset, so also did anti-Semitism: which has flourished there as it has in no other nation, If you look at German history, you discover that the hate groups against the Jews predated the Holocaust by at least 60-70 years. So it wasn't as if all of a sudden, Hitler invented German

anti-Semitism. It belonged in the very warp and woof of that nation. And I think it is still there. That's why Jews should be concerned about German reunification.

Q. Steve your message on Romans 11 was excellent. According to Romans 11: 11 salvation has come to the Gentiles in order to provoke the Jews to jealousy. Why do you think the Christian Church today, to a large extent, is unable to provoke them to jealousy? A. Most Christians today think they have scored a coup by holding only the New Testament and leaving the Jews with the Law and the Old Testament. But Reformed wisdom tells us that it is perfectly impossible to understand clearly the New Testament without the Old Testament. Therefore the precondition for the provocation to jealousy is for the Reformed community to re-embrace with a new vigor the Old Testament Scriptures in exhaustive detail as their heritage and the treasure that God has committed to them. Then we will be in a position to speak to Jews about our faith.

Counsel Editor Robert J. Bailey (L), Pastor Steve Schlissel (C) & frequent Counsel contributing editor

Byron Snapp (R) pause for a photo after the morning worship service at Covenant Presbyterian Church in

Cedar Bluff, Virginia.

Q. I think we were all moved this morning as you spoke on behalf of Paul, particularly where in Romans 9: 1-5 he stated that he could wish himself to be damned if it would benefit his brethren according to the flesh. On the other hand, some have tried to contrast that with Scriptures like Matthew 27:25 where prior to the crucifixion, when Jesus was standing before Pilate, those same people said, 11Let his blood be on our hands and on our children11 How should we view the Jews in light of God's providential dealings with them in history and our desire for their conversion? What is the danger here in misapplying the Scriptures?

The Counsel of Chalcedon November 1990 Page 13

A. There is a passage in Jeremiah in which God condemns the nati9ns who look at the sufferings of the Jews . and say "God is getting them." .That attitude is very, very dangerous, and the . prophets warn aga.iilst it. It is a gloating that says "I'm righteous--not I'm elect by the grace of God--but I'm righteous and the Jews are wicked and they are only getting what they deserve."

It's because of Roma:tls 10:1 and Romans 9: 1 & 2 that we are able to be balanced in our understanding of the Jewish people. People tend to view only one set of texts, either those that are reported to be anti-Semitic or those that dispensationalists see and say "See how specialthe Jews are." Well, the Bible is not sentimental . . It recognizes on the one hand, the Jews' responsibility for rejecting Christ and their continuing responsibility if they remain in unbelief and, on the other hand, that the Jews are beloved for the patriarchs' sake.

I preached on that text, ''Let His blood. be on us .and on our children ... ", and I do not think that the Jewish history can be fully understood apart from that. However, I would warn severely against making use 9f it in any glib, sanctimonious way as if the Jews. are getting what they deserve. l would remind people that the same One who is referred to when it says, "Let his blood be on us" is ready to forgive them ''for they know not what they do.'' And I think that His prayers prevail to a greater extent in Heaven than the Jews self-imprecation.

Q. Would you comment on the state of orthodox Judaism today and are they even aware that there are some Protestant Christians who not only love the ~wgiver but His Law as well?

A. They , are not interested at all in these little in-hO'\J.Se fights in Protestant circles. Many Jews regard all Christians as Catholics. They regard Protestants as confused Catholics who may someday return to their fully idolatrous ways. That is not to say that there are not brilliant intellectual Jews who have a real grasp of the society we live in and note the subtle "' differences as they see. it between denominations.

The orthodox Jews who are very covenant minded believe. that they have a nri,ssion in the .world and they have a purpose from, God. That purpose is consummated in terms of the Messiah. So they look foiward to the coining of the Messiah.

There is at least one very targe orthodox sect that believes there are preconditions for the Messiah's arrival .. They believe that wotldwide Jewish women

The Counsel of Cbalcedon November 1990 Page 14

have to light the Sabbath candles and Jewish men have to put on the phalacteries. They believe that when these things occur on some sort of universal basis among the Jews the Messiah will come.

So they go around from place to place, all around the world, in what they call good news tanks. They stop people on the streets and ask, "Are you Jewish?" If you answer, "Yes", they pull you into the vehicle and teach you. If you are a woman, they , teach you how to light the Sabbath candles and what prayer to say, If you are a man, they teach you how to put On phalacteries and they will teach you Jewish . traditions and Jewish customs. These people are : just calling the Jews back to what they perceive is

covenanto~ence.

They are asking the Jews a basic question, "If you wear God's name, why don't you live God's way?" In other words, if you call yourself a Jew, you have to do the minimum that a Jew will do. Then they take that minim.um as a stepping point to get the Jews into more whole hearted observance, which of course to them means the Ra,bbinical nonsense. They are interesting people waiting for the Messiah.

Theirs is a very interesting methodology. The Church can learn something from their mission program and apply it, for example to Roman , Catholics or to liberal Protestants. .

Q. I have heard you mention that Isaiah 53 has been tossed out of the Jewish liturgy. Please expand on that.

A. In the liturgy on any given Sabbath in the synagogue, you have readings from the Law. The 5 books of Moses are read through each year so that at. the Rejoicing of the Torah which .happens thiS: year in October, they read the ending of Deuteronomy andthe beginning ofGenesis~ That's to show that it's an eternal cycle that never ends. In addition to the portion of the Law, they also read a portion from the prophets. It could be Judges, Joshua, Isaiah or Micah When the Rabbis read portions from Isaiah, they go ftom Isaiah 52 to Isaiah 54. They skip Isai$ 53. I thirik they dQ as a means of self-defense

to keep people from .flocking to the churches. I've heard a lot of salvation stories from Jews from ju$t . reading Isaiah 53--it's that powerful.

Q. In talking about your mother's conversion, yqu comniented that the word"Christ" has a bitter taste to the Jew. Can you .explain that?

,. .

. A. You have torememberthe history of the church. and .the synagogue. . The name Jesus Christ somehow, even it's phonic quality, is so associated

with persecution, with hatred of the Jews and with idolatry as they see Roman Catholics set up idols. all over the cities were they live and have lived, with the constant harassing of their children in the European cities, that to speak about Christ is an offense to the Jew.

lt ~~ not recognizable to a Jewish person that the word Messiah means precisely what Christ means--the Anointed One. It's the same word--one is Hebrew in. orientation, the other is Greek. So when you . . witness to Jewish people, you do not have to avord the name Jesus Christ, but you should also show him to be the Messiah and show the relevancy of that. Christ is His title and not His last name. We have to show He is the Anointed One, Prophet,

Priest and King. .

But I think we should be sensitive to their prejudices in order to overcome them but not in order to change all our ways to accomodate them.

Q. Is there something else that offends them? A. Crosses. In fact a priest wrote a book about anti-Semitism and tells of talking to Jewish girl on Broadway one day. He talked but she hadn't heard a word because she was fixated on a cross that he was wearing and was horrified by it. The cross has a lot of emotional value for the Jews and it's all negative. Crosses, statues, crucifixes and stained glass with figures are all problematic for the Jew. When we evangelize the Jews we need to be carefully show them from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Messiah and avoid all extra-biblical stumbling blocks. Then if they reject the gospel, at least they know what they are rejecting. Q

"To be a Christian, it is not enough that we know and acknowledge a

system of doctrine and of law, deduced from the saJings of our

Lord and the writings of his ar>ostles. It is necessary that we be acquainted

with his person, his character, and his work; that we lmow the doctrines of ChristianitJ as his mind, the laws of Christianil)' as his will. The very life of Christianit)' consists in loving, confiding in, obeying him, and God in him; and he plainly can be loved, confided in, and obeyed, oniJ in the

degree in which he is known." Jolm /Jrown, DD. Scotland 1850

What have Reformed theologians his~ torically taught regarding the Bible (es-pecially the postmillennial stronghold of Romans 11) and the Jews? Why do these views profoundly affect your world and future view? How has Hal Lindsey "missed the mark," by painting all non-dispensationalists (and primar-ily Christian Reconstructionists) with a broad "anti-Semitic" brush, in his lat-est book? Steve Schlissel , a Jewish born Reformed pastor, refutes Lindsey's The Road to Holocaust against the set-ting of the long-out-of-print classic, The Restoration of the Jews, by Dr. David Brown of JFB commentary fame.

ISBN 0-921148-11-9, 200 pp., $9.95

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