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165° Aspect

THE QUINDECILE or The Fatal in the Natal, The Obsession in Progression, The Bandit in the Transit, and The Need to Be in Synastry.

The Quindecile, or 165 degree aspect, termed as "the separation aspect" by German astrologer Thomas Ring (1892-1983) denotes disruption and upheaval which divorce the individual from the balance of their life. Noel Tyl re-discovered this aspect while researching the horoscope of Leonardo da Vinci and after extensive research confirmed it as a prominent indicator of obsession/compulsion as a response to upset and trauma in the life.

THE DYNAMICS OF OBSESSION AND COMPULSION - Most of us have some degree of obsessive/compulsive tendency, inclination or behavior of a non-clinical nature such as co- dependency, alcoholism, drug abuse, workaholism, shopping, gambling, eating disorders, sexual addictions, body image, perfectionism, idealism, use of manipulation and/or control, and so on.... . One of the benefits experienced, during times of obsession, is momentary escape from feeling emotional pain connected with fear, disappointment, anger, low self esteem, difficult memories, etc. This escape can become addictive and our means of coping with stress we can't deal with, don't want to deal with or simply don't have the tools to deal with.

THE ASTROLOGICAL OVERVIEW - The 165 degree point falls at 15 degrees Virgo and Libra. Virgo (assimilation) and Libra (cooperation) require effective assimilation of cooperative efforts between the planetary pair's characteristics. Virgo (Earth) and Libra (Air) suggest a combining of the physical and mental. In other words "Do what you think!" Virgo (mutable) and Libra (cardinal) indicate this aspect having an active component which may go around in circles. When these dynamics are not consciously focused, chaos and disruption can reign within the life.The quindecile falling at the midpoint between a quincunx and an opposition, indicates a need for both adjustment and awareness in order to effectively synthesize the planetary energies and utilize this

dynamic to our benefit.

Planets quindecile angles are shown through the physical presentation, social outreach, relationships, societal position or professional endeavors.1.) ASCENDANT (ASC) - Possible obsession with one's looks, physical body or relationships. Characteristics of the aspecting planet are focused through how the individual presents him/herself. (i.e. George S. Patton - Mercury quindecile ASC, Joan Crawford - Venus quindecile ASC)2.) MIDHEAVEN (MC) - Shown through one's ambition, career, or how they seek to be known by society as a whole. The thrust for recognition or approval.(i.e. Norman V. Peale - Jupiter quindecile MC, Oprah Winfrey - Mars quindecile MC)

Planets quindecile Sun or Moon are an integral part of the personality. It is difficult for the individual to see the extent to which the drive of the aspecting planet is influencing their life.1.) Quindeciles to the Sun - Aspecting planet characteristics are incorporated into how the individual seeks recognition. (i.e. Winston Churchill - Pluto quindecile Sun, Quincy Jones - Neptune quindecile Sun)2.) Quindeciles to the moon - Intensify the security needs. (i.e. Liberace - Venus quindecile Moon, Janis Joplin - Mars quindecile Moon)3.) Quindeciles between the Sun and Moon - Enmesh the personality into a singular focus. (i.e. David Bowie, Joseph Mengele)

Personal planets quindecile personal planets are shown through the dynamics of the planets involved. For instance, Mars quindecile Mercury (i.e. Jack Nicholson) is a need to take action on ideas and information, or Mars quindecile Venus (i.e.Betty Ford) is a need to take action on aesthetics, kinship or relationship.

Societal or generational planets quindecile personal planetsSocietal planets (Jupiter and Saturn) indicate trends of the times and generational planets (Uranus, Neptune and Pluto) indicate movements of consciousness. When a societal or generational planet is quindecile a personal planet there is potential to be a leader in setting the current trends of the time or to perhaps "get caught up"

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in them. (i.e. Karl Marx - Uranus quindecile Mercury, Parmahansa Yogananda - Pluto quindecile Mercury)

Outer Planets quindecile outer planetsThe outer planets reflect movements, events and issues on societal, national and global levels which impact our consciousness. Alignments of Uranus and Neptune reference disruption of the status quo (Uranus) within a seeking of the ideal (Neptune); Uranus and Pluto reference disruption of the status quo (Uranus) within a shift in the perspectives of consciousness (Pluto); Neptune and Pluto reference seeking the ideal (Neptune) in perspectives of consciousness (Pluto).

Planets quindecile North Node may suggest the life purpose , a thrust into public recognition and renown, or a prominent maternal relationship.1.) Planetary dynamics involved can actually define one's "life purpose". (i.e. John F. Kennedy - Saturn quindecile North Node)2.) Recognition and renown can be literally "thrust" upon the individual and it can be suggestive of a life that is somehow destined to be in the limelight. (i.e. Jeffrey Dahmer - Mars quindecile North Node)3.) The impact of the relationship with the mother may be a primary factor in the molding of character, demeanor, values, and ability to cope or not cope with life . (i.e. John F. Kennedy, Jr. - Moon quindecile North Node)

Synastry - If planets are in quindecile aspect, within the synastry of two horoscopes, it indicates obsessive/compulsive inclinations within that relationship. When both persons have natal quindecile(s) and there are quindecile(s) through synastry of the two horoscopes, the relationship dynamics may be overwhelmingly obsessive/compulsive. This inclination will not be nearly as powerful if those involved do not have quindecile(s) within their own natal horoscopes. If person "A" has natal quindecile(s), and person "B" doesn't, the obsession/compulsion within the relationship may be one-sided, with "A" focusing on "B".

Not long ago, I read a post on the web by an astrologer named Ricki Reeves, on an aspect she referred to as a Quindecile. Ricki wrote, ""Noel Tyl re-discovered this aspect while researching the horoscope of Leonardo da Vinci and, through hundreds of horoscopes, has confirmed it as a prominent indicator of obsession/compulsion as a response to upset and trauma in the life. He states, in his Analytical Techniques article of August, 1999 "The quindecile, with rulership routings to be respected as well, suggests a burning point of focus, often a place of extreme concern and effort in the life, even to the point of upheaval, disruption and obsessive mania.""

I had mixed feelings reading this because, while I'm glad someone is calling attention to this little used but important aspect, I'm a bit upset that she is giving Noel Tyl the credit for 're-discovering' it. While Noel Tyl did do a good bit of research on this aspect, he did not rediscover it.

Edward L. Johndro, born near the end of the 19th Century, wrote extensively about this aspect, although he did not give it a name. The venerable Charles Jayne also wrote quite a bit on it.

My friend Al H. Morrison was the one who told me about it. In 1981, he wrote to me that he had been using the 165 degree aspect for many years, having been taught about from Johndro himself in the early 1950's. He wrote that 'It is in the affairs of the houses tenanted by the planets in this aspect that the native has this unending capability of carrying on, continuing, in total disregard of all practical reality. There is nothing like the nagging persistence of the 165 degree aspect, just never say die, never stop trying, never give up on negotiating the non-negotiable.' He termed it the Johndro aspect, for want of a better name, and some people today still call it that.

Then, he suggested that I study Chiron in 165 degree aspect to various planets, which I then did, and published my initial findings in my book, "Essence and Application: A View From Chiron" in 1985. Since then, I have also studied it with many other planetary combinations not including Chiron, and have found it to be significant time and time again. So if I kindle a curiosity about this aspect with this post, please don't just look at Chiron, but your whole chart.

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Note that some people feel Quindecile is a misnomer, saying that should properly be used for another aspect, 24 degrees.

Here is the excerpt from my book:

"I went through several hundred charts looking for Chiron in the 165^ aspect, and found an unusual pattern. In the charts of the famous and successful, some Chiron/165^ aspects came up very often while some planets were hardly ever related to Chiron by this arc.

The overall pattern I have found, when Chiron is 165^ to any planet, supports Al's description of persistence . But even more, it seems that the planet in this aspect to Chiron becomes much more active and much more visible as part of the person's image. This planet is the one that is the vehicle for the persistence. The person pushes, unendingly, with the aspected planet, while Chiron acts to part or overcome the obstacle in the way of the planet. Sometimes Chiron seems to create additional, unusual problems first which the person must resolve---and in so doing, develop more and more persistence in many different kinds of environment. This must be the 'teacher' facet of Chiron showing up.

Interestingly, Chiron was 165 to Mercury at the time of its discovery. Perhaps this is one reason we have been pushing so hard, so fast, to find out everything we can about Chiron as quickly as possible. And Chiron is 165^ the Sun in the chart for the Association for Studying Chiron---instilling the very purpose of the organization with this never-give-up attitude.

Here follows a brief tour of Chiron 165^ to the planets as searched so far. Please apply what follows to your charts, to see if you come up with similar results.

SUN 165^ CHIRON

Much enthusiasm, energy, and usually a great deal of optimism. Almost always described by others as being hard-working, with a tendency to experiment---to always look for alternative methods to accomplish their ends. But while they enjoy the new, they tend to resist, very strongly, any change imposed on them from outside!

EXAMPLES of people with Sun 165^ Chiron:

Chuck McKinley, William Rehnquist, Muhammad All. Wendell Willkie, Cornell MacNell, Arthur Schlesinger, Robert Smithson, Clifford Odets, O. Henry, Nlkola Tes1a, Guy Lombardo, Roger Moore, Norman Vincent Peale, Jimmy Carter, Michel Gauquelln. [Note: Francolse Gauquelin has Chiron 165^ Saturn]

MOON 165^ CHIRON

A tendency to be very charming and witty, full of ideas. A need to communicate is amplified, and it seems, so is the intelligence. Most seem to have the ability to lead others. Negatively there can be a tendency toward arrogance, even abusiveness, which must be watched. Very versatile as long as they choose to try new things---but a bit resistant to new things suggested by others.

EXAMPLES of people with Moon 165^ Chiron:

Michael Tilson Thomas, Leo Guild, Jack Past, Bob Gunton, William Huff man Stewart, Bert Convy, Kurt Russell, Lyndon B. Johnson, Ethel Merman.

MERCURY 165^ CHIRON

Here again there seems to be a great deal of intelligence, or at least the projection of being intelligent. Usually quite witty, with a powerful need to talk. Often described as quick thinking, or of 'having an answer for everything.' This type is hardworking, especially when involved In mental or communication pursuits.

EXAMPLES of people with Mercury 165^ Chiron:

Robert Bruce Mathlag, Robin Evan Roberts, Roger Staubach, Johnny Carson, Henry Cabot Lodge, David St. Clair, Bonnet Cerf, George C. Scott, George Harrison, Rich Little.

VENUS 165^ CHIRON

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This aspect makes the person overly concerned with one or more aspects of Venus, pushing the planet right out in front of their list of priorities. For some this leads to an early love of money, possessions and .pleasure. For others it is love, and the concept of love. There is a great vulnerability to pain quite early in life. Some react by learning from it, some by projecting it outward as a desire to 'get even', and some go under, relishing their suffering.

EXAMPLES of people with Venus 165^ Chiron:

Thomas Otten Paine, Tom Poston, Richard Speck, Janis Joplin, Harry Tracy, Shah Pahlavi of Iran, Ray Stevens, Neil Diamond.

MARS 165^ CHIRON

Mars, in some form or another, seems to express the main thrust of the life. You can sense in most people who have this aspect a strong killer instinct, although it may be modified and channeled by other aspects. The basic tendency is to be unpretentious, straightforward, very active, firm and strong willed. These people always need challenges, always need to be active. While most seem to be aggressive, another type appears to hide aggressiveness to the point of elaborate, purposeful cover-up pretenses. This type presents self as very low-keyed, but the perceptive can sense within them the potential for attack.

EXAMPLES of people with Mars 165^ Chiron:

Louis Armstrong, Bill Mauldin, Yves Montand, Baron Manfred Von Richtofen, William Saroyan, Bela Lugosi, Jack Nicholson, Warren Beatty, Billy Carter, Roberta Coweli, Moses Gann, Ken Kesey, Bob Lilly, Otis Chandler, John Clifford, William Colby, Judy Collins, Wayne Embry, Kathryn Grayson, Craig Breedlove, Robert C. Byrd, Isaac Asimov, Princess Grace Kelly.

JUPITER 165^ CHIRON

These people are always in need of 'something'---always looking for

answers. They must always go further, further, further. The sense of freedom is very strong, and there an accompanying hatred of any limitations imposed from outside.

EXAMPLES of people with Jupiter 165^ Chiron:

Anthony Joseph Foyt, Rex Harrison, Conrad Morlcand, Friedrich Nietzsche, Harry Tracy [see also Venus 165^ Chiron for this convicted murderer], Jan Fleming, Miguel Hidalgo.

SATURN 165^ CHIRON

These people initially have an unflagging curiosity, and as they get older, they either amplify it or repress it. Most are very tough under fire, down-to-earth people. Saturn for these individuals is a very powerful planet and they are always stressing it somehow. For some Saturn is externalized, and the person sees the world as a very miserable place or as a place full of enemies. For others Saturn is pursued as a goal, or chosen as a path, so that they become involved m uncovering the nature and structures of the larger environment. It is an excellent position for the researcher. Many personify the way most of us would like to be.

EXAMPLES of people with Saturn 165^ Chiron:

Yogi Berra, Joan Caulfleld, Hugh Downs, Clay l"elker, Robert Alan Good, Louis Groza, Robert Kastelmeier, Eleanor Parker, Garth Allen, Camille Flammarion, Alfred E. Housman, Dr. -Sam Sheppard, Gore Vidal, Judy Garland, Norman Lear, Lee Marvin, Francoise Gauquelin [see note under Sun 165^ Chiron].

CHIRON 165^ URANUS

These people refuse to submit individuality to any outside control. They feel compelled to 'do their own thing' no matter what.

EXAMPLES of people with Chiron 165^ Uranus:

Steve Cauthen, Paul Gauguin, Jay Waverly North, Craig Russell.

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CHIRON 165^ NEPTUNE

There seems to be a concern with power here, but not in the Plutonian sense. The concern is with having enough power to change what something is to what they want it to be.

EXAMPLES of people with Chiron 165^ Neptune:

Mayor Richard J. Daley, Estes Kefauver, Don Ameche, David O. Selznlck, Walter Slezak.

CHIRON 165^ PLUTO

Here is where I need your help, dear reader. The only example I have found so far of this aspect is Richard DeMont, an athlete and champion swimmer, who has the dubious distinction of being the first Olympic participant ever to be disqualified from championship for the alleged use of drugs. Please send in the charts of other people who have this aspect, so we may find the positive expressions of it.

IC 165^ CHIRON

This aspect surprised me by being so much more prevalent than the aspect to the MC. Perhaps it is because this aspect puts Chiron only 15^ from the MC, thus making Chiron a very elevated planet? One common element seems to be a love of show, often manifested in a fondness for clothes. In any case, these people truly get into whatever role they are playing, and identify with it in a total sense. They always seem to make a big impression.

EXAMPLES of people with IC 165^ Chiron:

David Warren Bruebeck, John Renaldo Ottina, Sam Peckinpah, Jane Russell, Gay Talese, Jim Bailey, Herman Goering, Morgana King, Rick Springfield.

MC 165^ CHIRON

Since the only individual I have found so far with this aspect is General Frederick Carlton Weyand, who was Commander of

American forces in South Viet-Nam, I will reserve judgement on the meaning of this aspect. Here is another plea for help from the reader.

ASCENDANT 165^ CHIRON

The ascendant, whatever sign it may be, is emphasized. The person projects the qualities of the rising sign more strongly than is usual, and always seems to make an impression on anybody they meet.

EXAMPLES of people with Ascendant 165^ Chiron:

Sandy Duncan, Claude Roy Kirk, Eddie Albert, Maurlce Ravel, Lana Turner.

DESCENDANT 165^ CHIRON

These people are usually quite thorough in their activities. They refuse to let other people alter their course of action, whatever it may be. They are often deeply involved in their work, which is often specialized or unusual.

EXAMPLES of people with Descendant 165^ Chiron

Bobby Stone, James Blish, Dr. Walter Koch, Vincent Price.

ONE FINAL THOUGHT ABOUT THE 165^ ASPECT Since it is rarely mentioned in astrological literature, it may be a good idea for us to investigate all other 165^ aspects in our charts involving planets other than Chiron. In this way we can get a better feel for the aspect itself, and will then be more able to understand what Chiron means when it is involved. I myself have Jupiter 165^ Saturn, and I am just beginning to fathom what that means for me.

Perhaps the biggest clue to its meaning will come from seeing it as a part of a whole aspect family: 165^ -- 11/24, 150^ = 10/24, 135^ = 9/24, 120^ = 8/24, et cetera. What do you think?"