41

.John Lamb, sworn nnd examined. 547. To the Cjw.iJrman.-I am mayor of Cbewton. I n.m a retired civil servant. As to our house

~npply for domestic purposes, the oni.Y complaints 1 haH' heard iu Chewtonare in the higher plaee'. There is n place <1ividing C!wwton from Fryer,towu, and they always havu a di!lieulty there, :md in thu p~trt of Chcwton which i,; high and in \Vatt](, Gully. The f!mulz reofing c.mntry goe:< ihro11;~h tlmt part. There has been a consirlombl8 aUWIILL of ::;bclmes~, hllt there has lat~'lv befJn a rc:Yival. The ~onthcrn Cro~s is in active work, an,] on gold, and tlw 'Nattlc (~nlly is in w~rk and will eru~h very ~oon. They have a very lnrgc plnnt, nnd tlw other mine, in :·on:-:otpHmc<; of striking gold, has c:u1~ed a gre:11: amount of activity, and 1 he crn,;hing will neccs"itate the use of water for 1 he boiiei'H. The people very extensively cnteii the wnrcr oJT'their roofs in Clwwton. All :hu lwtwr clnss of lwm;es l1ave tn.nks r·onncrted \\'ith them.

,j48. To JY.h. A. Han·is. -There j,; qnite a large development lately in cou:seqncnce of tLie Sir Fmucis Ormond mine having struck gold, and it is a vury large make of "tone. They are erushing from 900 feet. The yield has bee11 175 o;,;s. for the lnst t>1·o \Yt:r;ks, and tlmt lm" eansed a great ruvival of the spirit there was in the distriet in the old 1 imc~ .

.'549. To the Hon . .I. if. ".J.Mort.-"\' lo :h, 'ie!rl ol" 1 ';';5 ozs .. it ran abont lmlf-an-onnce to the Ion. They have been waiting for a new boiler, \Yhieh lw; Ill!\\. arrill;-1.

550. To the lion. E. )lforo;.-Thoy ne goi11g to incre~L"e their lliPUher of stn.mpers; but the <liilicnlt_v they had was \\'it.h till' stem11 jl0\'."<'1'. l: wn~~ not '11lfiei•·u1 for their !JIIl"Ji'"'"~. A great deal of it wa,; taken for hau!iJI!r. The comJ)anv is ownetllw Ben<li~·o. 1 think .Mr. Lansr;il OWIIS tuliv two-thirds of it, if not more. ' • " · ··· •

551. To 1rfr. A. HmTis.-P;·ior· to tlre ~~~··•·ess o!' the Ormond mino thme was a large amount of sluieing going on, and always !:as h:'ell. I may suy tlmt this is old Forest Creek, or knr,wu in the P:uly <lays as the i\lnnnt Alex:Jilder dig-ging·,;. Hrdlara1 canH: fir,t, then Forest Cr."ck came m·xt. The astonishment to me is that t!Je people have bePn working for so many year,; on tho alluvial, and a large population gettiug a living, and some more, so1ne a fair income from the old allm·i:tl workings by ;:luicing. The trouble !u1s oe•:r1rrerl, ns y<lil hay;, lwar,L thnJ11gh tlH1 wa1t•r gidng 0111. or J,,•ing r·ut off in conseqnen<;c of shortage in the resPnoir. 'Ve hnd pnhllc meetings about the matter; it was from our borongh that the movemt"nt stnrted, i11 COll:'i'(jUeJH«J of puhlir: meetings l.eing l1eltl npon tl!e water flliC~tion, 'o th<; llemand for more water really emaunte<; from 1 be Chewton Borough Connci!.

662. To the Hon. g :1/m·ey.-They arc ~ontiunally pnmping- in t.he Ormonrl mine. 1 am not. an enginee1·, alHl ilo not kno\\" the lluanrity th •y get. They might nsu the \ntter for their battery, bnt for the boiler they must w:e fresh water. I conld not sny from my own knowledge whether Lhcy haYc sufficient water for the Latteries.

553. 1'o Af.r. A. 1-farris -If there were n better water supply there wOII!tl be nu increased nse, and a larger population. There is a lii•ld for unlimited increa'e of popnlntion, and then the donm~tic snpply would come in. I Jrtay sa.'" th,tt just HOW t!IIJre i~ hardly ono ho11~C IllliPt iu Chewton. The <lomestic supplies are pretty well, exeept in the higher·J,vels. It wns on accoull!. of tho stoppage to sluicers and the danger of a limited onpply ior dome~tic pmpo~e . ..; whi•·l1 ll!cl to t.ho pt!blie movement for anextende<1 water snpply.

1'he witness tdthdt·etl!.

Tlwrna,; Elliott, ~wurn awl oxamined. 554. 1'o the Chninnan.-I am a ~torekeeper, living in Castlemaine. I have been living here 45

years. I have not personnlly nnv complnint to mate ahont shorta.!!e of water, hm in the hi?"h ]eye],; thc•y are alway~ complaiuing iu t}Je ~umm<cr tillll: tl1:tt they cannot get snffieient wator; in fact, wo have to study how to get them water. V\'e have to cnt qff the waler given to gm·deus, speaking now as a councillor. \Ve had to clo~e all the "'ntc1· gi 1cen free to 1 he council, and tlwn tlw.v had a vury poor supply, indeed, for want of pressure and want of :mpply. Tbe building lroom hns heen going ahead in 1.be town, and within tho last four years more honses have hren lmilt in the trnvn than dm·ing the preTious 30 years. They nre nlwayR extending the reticulation of the water, and it io becoming that either the mains arc getting too small, or the supply not adeqnate to give a. pre~~nro. We are mted in necordance with the valuation. For in"rane(e, I pny about £.'i ::.year. Somo of the hanks in rhe street, that do not use tlw water, pay as mneh as £10, and any nnmher of shops, where no 0110 reside~, pay the ~ame water rates as borough rates. That is the rule right throughout the borough. I think it is mt hf~r unfair the wa.\' SDI11c of them have to pay, tlwngh tlrt·y do it. Ao to our being able to pay interest. 011 a fmthor outlay of£ LCO,OOO, I say, without lw~itation, that the rm'entw might he iuneased by mean!' of extnH!ed reticulation, hnt there is no nse laying down ]'ipes withont 'ornething· to fill them. Tl1ert: iB a large• rusen'oir, which eost sometlriug like £70,000 out at Harcourt. It has l<een a white eleph:mt ever sin eo it """ s built, because the watershe(1 is uot sufficient to keep it filll. If that rf''ervoir were <·onnPcted with the other ~ehPme-there has been n survey made, and T helien· it is pmdienlde, I think by gwvit[r\ion. tl11oug!I the \H:st ~ido of Barker's Creek \\'ith the orchards i:J<·reasiug yenr by year, there would he a great. demand for water. They have heeu at me frcfluently to bring this before the Dc·p;utment, and whenever we have hatl an opportnnily I have doue so. There is no donbt the revenue eould bo greatly increnseLl, if an improvement took pln<;e in the supply .

.S.'i;J, To J}fr. A. Harris.-Bv eorr<;spondence with the Derartrnent it was shown that when Mr. Deakin was hc::td he wished_ the local hodie;.; to t:d::· over ihe ·.:ater "upply on thnir own aceonnt--tl1at is all the retienlation "'orks-hut I am afmi<l it i,: not pnu~r.ieahle her(·, be<::ruse llio interest would be too great for the present. All the reticnbtion pipes arc down so long thnt it would require new ones lobe put in. It is no mo saying the prP~Pnt pipes are rnste1l; they arc two ,;mall altogether for tho work n:'piired of them. They were laid down to ~npply tl1e populntion of the time, forgetting that i.t was increasing. Our town is going ahead hy leaps nml bounds, an<l as to mining J agreo "-ith all that has been saiil by the previous \\'itnesses, SOI\l!' of whom were lllini11g· ,;xpcrrs. _\.t tillles thoru arc complaints nbout tlw quality of the water supply for 1lomestic pmposes, generally speaking after hea,·y rains. 'Ve have sett.ling ponds in the town, bnt thev are not used regn larly, I belieYe.

,);56. To the lion. H. 1llore;IJ.- l do not know the sizo of the pipes use<i as main''· There is no doubt the wvenue coni(] be ill<:rcased if the Harcourt Heservoir were joined, and it would give a lot of elllployment west of Barker',; Creek.

T/11' witness with.drew.

At"jo?.trned.

42

(Taken at Maldon.)

FRIDAY, 19'l·n :MAY, 189f).

.lfr;mbers prPsent:

}!JL CA.mmoN, in the Chair ;

The Hon. IJ. Molvi!lc, M.L.C., The Hon. E. :\Iorey, :M.L.C.

:Mr. cra.,. .. n, }fr. A. !Iarris, Mr. St.;:le~, Mr. w·hite.

\Y. T. Holla,;on, S\Y(I!'I1 ana examined .

• 557. J'o the Chrcirman.~~I am ,;eeretary of ihe :..;!1ir(' of ::llnldon.

1'/ie 1/'ilJ.'P·'S 1'i•arlthe j(,ffon·iii[J stoft'JJJt•;;l

the inL: .•. ke of wetter at .:\fal,Jon. t'Dllclcl'ell iuercaf.:cof popnbtion ll'e of the nu m•,, it follows t lt.1t ,,nJ em tailment Bnpply at the head-works

extent, til" heneth of the• propo,ed Jll"t c·ase1l expr,wlttm e. and in the u\'mtt of a prohngetl ara;lahlce holll our present 'i<Jlll'cc, it follo\\'s that a dimiun[.ion of reYemw to the \Y<cter :-;npply our itnportaut 111ining iwlustn: ~utfcr lleuee the ueee.r;;sit,v for iuerease(l

"\ ltlwn;;!t '"\hldu!t j,; we han hce~1 \'cry poorly 1naia \\as l:Lid ,h_,\\'H. The pre~eut a !1 <ttlll H-ill. nlt-tiB, anfl the

W•ts only !tl>Out 14.00H,OiJO frum which supply little or the pumping plant. has been erede• I, the hJs been increased \'€\',Y

conl(l be ~till fm'tl1el' inc~rea:?-t'!l by cuu~innous pUlftl)iug two ~l<ifts a. <lay~ won](} give ns ucarly 40,000,000 gallons mmtta!ly. l'rior tn the eree.tioll of the J1lllil]l itt J8!Jo, thL• 1·eyennG reeeived fwm householders, and a- very limiteLt supply t-> 1nines, w,Ls .£()!_),) last the re\-oune fnnn all sourc.es ,,~a~ £9-!.), although in early portion of the year the snpply to the mines to limitml. Them is no •louht. tlmt a further iuercttsc in revenue eonltllH1 obb1ine~-l if n mon: n~lc(ptaic snppl_'/ of \Vater ,,-;1') <IX:tHaiJle. TIH:J·c :tl Hlc preRCJlt titue :J.7 hnut;es, within uot n;th:nlatt~d. Tw<:ln~ nlitH'S <U'(' fron1 1 hr• 1nain; ilw1·c n1·e ele\·en other urine~ at \VOrk, of macldne1·y~ and otl:er.~ \\'nnl1l ~'l'c('t ii in~~n·;,<..:.•,·d \\'a.ter i:u;ilitics arc lH'OYhlell. New lmildingtJ a.re ert;eted 'vithi11 the area, ;~ud \\·.ttcr iH lJ;_Hlly IJe~;(letl in the sn1n1ncr ti1nc for vmtering the Tlw council hn.,·e a;lplicd to the iJcpm·: m cut for pt'l'tnis;,ion to l!He wn,ter for this purpo.":, offering to Jl>lY fm· the pridlegt•, llltt, o\\·in~t to the limited it eonhluot he A further source of renmue could he obt~tim•,J, if an :llle,tnate supply were Uw watet• fur irrig.ltion purposes, hnt residents ohject to go to the of "" the to he cut o!f. or only au intermittent. supply, in the sulntner, when il'rigation nHmt n0e(led. ~{al<lon tnines ttre paying H(l. pt'l' 1,000 gallons for wttteY~ w~1ich is more than other mine~ snpplic•l fmm tiw Colihan p:cy, awl m the year 1;-,\1:! the l't'\'ennc derivell from onr then limited Sllpply was <'<JU~t\ to q per cent. on the original at tlmt time expenses <tbsorhe<l nea1.·ly lwJf the ruvL:uue ; \\'hercas the an_·l'agt~ return OH tlH~ Coliball ;.,chcu;e is tlJau l pel' cent.

There is 110 other sonrce of: ::nppiy !'or thi,; I0\1'11 hn1 pmnping-. Bdore \I'O <[j,[ the !•U:llping we were supplied hy menns of a 5-ia. main, ll}' nwan~ of l!l'avilalion, lnit the ~I.'I'Vieo wa< itmdeqnat0. The position of rbc town i:-; too high for 11~ ro he well onpplic:l l>y n \)~in. lllain, :t$ the tak<·-<,fl' at (;rl'ell Gull.v is only 16 feet higher than the town. Om 8nppiy i>< taken l'rom tho wain ehannel at Un:on Cully, an<l the pipe is 110t large enouglr to c!lh·i•.•ril Slipph- by gra,·itntion, hn! tl1o talion ~i!p]'ly is ~npplenH:nte<l by n pn1nping station 2 lllilr·s o11t of :\blrlou. All :lie water tlmt eum,·;; to us l>_,· gnn·ilation wonld not fill a 2-in. pipe. I fllll rlonhtfnl if [l larger pipr: \Villi Id intprm···' t!u• gr !Yitation -qzpply. r C'ltllllOt sit.\' the arnonnt of wa.ter n~od annually nt :i\Iahlon. Ln~t year t!w reven;~o \\-a,- £6M0 for· dome,;tic supply, am! £::!65 for water to the mines. \\'e r•annot ohtain all !uleqnnlc snpply of \\'Hfer in tlte snmmer time; it is either intermittent or is ent oll' alro;.;et!tnr. 1 r'nlllJOf. sny the qnautity of \Yater t.hat would be snffieient to supply all our wnnts. Ji, winter time there i,; 110 dearth of water in tho towll.

5;JS . . l'o Jfr. Hr/dtr.---Tlw people m·r• prepan·rl to pny nt ilw '-':11110 rn te for cx!m "·at er. A scheme has been snggo;;ted to const.rnet allothe' r;:,sonoir, bnt rhe water wonld hn.Yc to bo ptunpr•d io supply it. :Maldon mn;;t he ~upplie1l hy nwnns of pnmping, cx('cpt g-n·nr expeu~P i~ ineurn•d. There wonld he a mneh greatm· n~;e rna:lc of 'micr if a ~!ipply wero :n-nilnhh•. Tlwre arc plenty of largo l!ardens thnt would ll~e wnt·er, f'Oil1C of them n11 or fiYO in extent.. Thew is Yery little provi•ion mndc for thu con­servation o!' water l,y mt•nn,: of dams in eottnnxion wii!t g-u.nlens. \Vn.ter i>< la ken surrepti!iously from tho supply, uo rlonbt.. '>rarer is also obtniuerl by <'nrting. Tlw inhai,irnnt' JXI·:·' lC'. per 1,000 g!tl!Pn~ to tho Board, anrl Is. in the fl trlr mnni<,ipal rare". Tlw minr:s pny 6d. a l,OOIJ, \Yhieh is more than in any other plaeP. At one tim" they oul.r nrtitl !d., anti the iih:re emmeil then had a bond to mako goorl any deficiency, but th!:_r wmo r<'lieveil of t:1e l>Ond Ly tlu• minc;s pnyin,:.:: !)d. pnr l,OOO. There aro ~ome 20 or 30 l1011:'e" in tho town not reti<ll!iared. T!re_r ha Ye fo J-w ,.;nppli('d \\'ith water, hnr the Departuwnt. object. that the co8t o!' pipillg nml bning 1\'onld ill' too much fur the roYL'llltO to bo rlerivetl. The comwil ha~ not askl"l rer·Pntly for u >'npply to tlto~e hnt. thev ""n>'~dt·r it 1he clnty of' the DPpurtment to supply them. Thosle hou"e" do not :•n.v wn.ter mt:•;; nnks" t lte maiu~ go pa~t the:r door". Step" are heing taken to lirge tho i)epnriment I>> ;.;Hppl~- thosr: 20 or ;lQ honsl's, hnt rile ..:upply to those l10use" might l'horten tiJC sup]'ly ro tho•·e ll'ho alr,•ady !Ja\'o wr:Jer. That hn:<, ho\H)I'CI'. uor ::dluonec<l tho"e who are now supplied. 1 think that :\I:dtlon p:tv:< tltll\' a fnir proportion of rho intE'I'l'"' n;t I he workl' .

.);)9. To Jh·. Styft•s.-Tlw Dq>artlllE'Ht ohjeeted to la\· pipes u::ksH tlw penple of the town wonlll dig the trenehes for them. Tlte extension wnul<l !nti'O to 1,., 6-in. pipe,;. 11: 1hat wor·k were done tho council \1-uultl not have to give an'>· gn;tmntee. Tl,o total eost n!' bringing wmet· to -:\In1tlon is £20,000. The annual co:>t of mauagement i,.; .±:;3()0, am! the eo~t of pumpiH((' i-s about t>100 pur annum, including interest.. The water comes from Spring Gnlly, sonw 17 miies away. an•l tlw State has had to lny that 17 miles of pipes fm· nothing. Tlte Dc·part.ment mnrh' n mi~takc it: lnyhtg those pip0s. mHl the Depart­ment should ghee sn::1e cxtm assi,taiH'e in eo1t2eqnonce. It' there were .•ullieiem water nn•l big enough pipes, chore would bo snlll<·icnt pre-~nre to go to any place nenr r:,u in·,nt. \Ye hnve two rol'iervoirs. The hasin i~ plneed at the higiltlSt point. I be!ir"·o that with a higf;:••r piJ,n frotn t!w main dumud we could supply i\fg]rlon wi!bont IHt~in. At c~u:tl<'mahw thr·y ;.epm to ll:ll'l' an nhunrlant ~llpply '"'Cl':f\Yhere. Everywhere where there: a wnter ~upply at tiuws they are ~lwrl ,;~· water; out !he fact l'<'lllaius that

. with a little :tddi1ion:tl oxl>r·nsc ~~-e !'ot:ld ban' :111 :uln1unte snpr•ly, :Jn<l tile Department would imvc an inereasr'd revrmuo. J\lth"1tgh iu d'" llle'ropolitan nn·a there i~ ,ouu:lillJL'' a shorfrH::<' of WH!<:l', we will admit there aro otlwr phu,es :ts hndly otf a;; '"e an,: still, t\YO wron;r;; do not mako a right..

43 W. T. Rollason, 19th May, 18~9.

560. 'l'a 1rJr. Craven.-If a first-ela~s supply of water were g-uaranteed by the Government, and a reaFonahle rate were fixed for it, I do not think tile people would be willing to form a tn1st; and manage their own affairs. That is a question, however, that I would not like to give a definite nnf!wer to ; hut, from my knowledfE:c, I do not tl1ink they would .

. 56l. J'o the Hon. E. J}Jorey.-We have a 5-in. ami a 6-in. main. I do not think that a 10-iu. pipe would not giYe as mueh water as we eonld pump with a 6-iu. pipe. Our main is 5-in. part of the way and 6-iu. at the inlet. It is 6-in. at. the resmToir, and a 10-in. main would gh·e us a little more water. hat nothing in proportion to onr wautB. It wonl.t not- gh·e the same proportion, it would he only two and a half times whar we get now from the 5maller main and the aid of the pumps. I do nnt think a 1:!-in. · main woulu l:(iYe us a11 aclcquat(~ Hnpply if bid all along the tmck. It has to go down 800 fe("t to go llp. The pressure i,; lcsdened con~idembly owing to the invert. There is the hack water. The faet still remain~ that wl;eu ~·e htHl the water l1y gravitation, ~tlthongh tbere is a ()-in. main at the iule1, it would not fill a 2-in. pipe coming into the rosen••ir, t:H'll :Hlrnitting that :t 10-iu. ma.in gives ns three tiuH·s a:; mnch. The expen~e o£ the pump W:t" f~·,.,o. 1t i~ only a 6-in. pipe, hut while we pnmp there i~ rhrt'e times the Wllt\'r 'I'C lJntl at the bu:<iu. l we llCgall witli 12 in. and ('((IIH' down to 8-in. ami tiJeu to {).in. \\'() should have a big supply, hnt 1 do not think it wonl•l lw worth tlw expense; tlw great expeiN; the Department would Le pur. to they would not ;.::n to. ~\.t tbe pre~l'llt time we c;ttt get- ·1:!,000,000 gallons with onr pump, and I do not- think a l:l-in. main with g-ravitation wonl;l give ll" more. 1 ~peak from tl•e knowlet!go of more expcrioneed men than 1ny:wlf. I lllne ht•nnl it mooted by bringing all opt•n dwnnel, starting ~tt tho higher lu1el, but only receutly. It wonld he hottH to ha\'C a D-iu. mniu than going to the expense of pu!ling- a J,igger main on t-hat traek. lt woultl bo ll>'eless to go to the expen:<e of l,utting a 12-iu. mai11 l>y that lral'k nud not get mom wat-er tlnlll we have !low.

il62. 1'o t/,e Chai·rman.-Tho mteal:le property within tlw water area in this shire is at the pn·Kcut time £12,488.

56H. To 1lfr. Wkite.-And two year~ ago it. wns £10,;n I; it if' inereasing. 5(14. Io the Hon. D. }Jfclvifle.--Tlw enlire a~rc·-c;ruent of the whole >hire 1s £a0,/06. As f:,r

as the new re~(:noir is conl·emed, nul<:~~ they :ue going t" giYo lls fnciliti<:s for 1-celling wntcr it i, of 110

use to ~~~- Our:; is a local grionllH'e, bat, notwithftnHtlil:g Ihnt, we antieipatn ltavin~-1· nn in:'l'•!a:iPcl supply, lllld it i~ w:ole~~ going to n gn·at c•xpeu~e if we hnn; llo bt:Her supply after all. 1Yhat we are bringing uml"r y•mr redew i;; that tJ,e main pipe is iwtdetptate. 'We are quite willing to t!1ke an e•ju:d responsibility in the matter with other towns. Tile danger is, if we get a1t extm >'upply of w:>tcr m1<l the head-works fail. there is a necessity for another reservoir at :\lalmshury. lf a new pipe iR lleees .. ary aud a new reservoir tuo, 1 think t-he people are again:;t the eost,, bceanse o:~r cxpel'ieuco i8 that othc·r plaee" do not pay. A>< has been poimed ont, some plaeeq vay allll others do not. TLe question ha,; beeu put to lllC, would the people here be willing, if a uew maiu were put in am! all the expenoe gone to of n new l'e:<erroir, to take the works over from the point where we tnke ofl'! 1 think thc•y would be on•oscd to that, simply because they look on it as a national undertaking w hid1 the Government ~houl,l cany ont. lf the {:;.ovem­ment arc short of money in other directions we have to J>a)' our share of the short.nge, and we tit ink we should have as ~'ood a ;mter ~:>upply as other plaee~.

565. To .Mr. A. ll~trris.- [am not quite snre a::: to the total capacity of the two local reservoirs. In the particular onse 1 allnded to whero the residents made apptientiou to the conucii t~> assist them, and the Dt:partment said if the residents would dig the treneh they would pnt tlown the pipes, nnd 11othiug more has come of it, our complaint is that the progress of t-he plaeo i:> retarded in e·:wsequeuce of the inade­quate water ~npply, and that progress would be added to if we had an adequate supply. The population is about 2,800, and there would be. roughly, l suppose about 1,247 working miners, taking the whole of the mining clistriet, and 60 per ceut .. or those would be within the water area. There are 2a mining leases at work, with men employed. At the pre~ent time we ha;-e only two ,\ivi;lcnd-pnyiug mines; 1-he rest are call-making, but they may make gold at any moment. 1 could not, tell the exac·t number of fitamps we have at work here. There is one case of tlw quartz miuing being l'etardet! by want or water. 1n one ease they carted water as long as they could, awl theu they hud to t~top nntil the water canw. As to alluvial mining, I beliei'C that if wat-er we1·e available it llli~ht. he 11"'"'1 with ad\'n.ntage for ,;Jnieing pmpuses. I know the rouutry between here aml Sandy Creek awl between hero aml Poreupiue F1nt, and 1 know there is an old diggiugs thoro mdy half workell. l ha Ye remarked that if there were wnler 1101 iliug wouid please me better thau HI go nnd work there. Ther<' wa~ good gol•l got there. J\lllst or tlte mine,; here have a clmn. Cntil reeently they had uo ~npply from the lllltin;;, nuly since we had the pump. Tlttci·e is a grent improvement taking pl:v:e in llliuin,'.!: in Jhldon tltrongh tlte gn~at faith people lmve in the di,-trict. Although we haYea IIU!lloer r>l' ea.II-maldHg companies, the people ray el,eerfully,und no we get- into the tleeper gron11d it is proved the gold ~rill goes down. Beyond the fhet- that awney wa~ loeked np, the land boom had nothing io do with the rail in mining. I have nothing fnrt.her to add beyond wlmt I have put in the state­ment I read. There :ore two orelwnls within a short di~lunco of thb hall, one of 4 or 5 acre:;, aml tlte other of 2 or 3 acre,.:. l know oue in partienlar, wlwn' the OW11er was in~tnwted to pHt a meter ou, lmt he objected hecan;-;e he eould not get any water. lie mid if he eould get it be ·wonltl use tbe water and pay for it. ·They have to try and eke out a living from othr:r ~1!\Jn'e~ in con>eqnc>Ji('() nf no! having riJ,. water to irrigate with. They follow different oecup~tioiiH ; their ow11 will not pay l.ecau~e tiwy hnve not rhe water to make it pnv. ~.\.s to the domcHtic w>tter snpp!y, the comph~ints l~ave oeen innumerable. The people object to pay hecanse t-hey eannot get the water. .l here ~~n: no eomplamts ahout- the qnality of the water.

566. 'To 1l-f.r. fF/iite.-There were meetings held. here iu .\<lalrlon some yuars ago in refererwe to water ;mpply, and 1 am guided hy tile resnlt of tbm:e meetings. At- one meeting theru \\'as a resolution cnrrieci that- the householders would rather pay an c•ighteenpenny rate if they wen) :l'sure,l of an nd 0 ,~ 11 ate supply. The wbole of the people were not repre:'entcd, but the whole of tht;se pre~ent carried u u11a.ni;uous resolution to that effect. The eouueillmre never lost very mnch t-ime in urging ou 1 he Departtncn t what was necessary, but the Government were apathelie. They seemed to think tlwt- they would hav(; to spend a large amount of money on the main, und so tile pump was got at a low eost, aut! it has do11e n j.!reat amount of work. We contemplated doing ::~omcthiug if IYO got the \Yate1·, bnt the DeparLmeut arc goilw to do it. '\Ve COIJ,;ider WC have a claim Oil theru to g-ive US tW extm basin. \Ye wore not 1-10ing: to ~tdk~ an extra rate. \Ve consider we are eutitJcd to sP:netlti11g l.1y lhe short water supply we !mve, mH.l for which we have to pay. If we got the water at the same rate as now, I ean safely say there would be

W. T. BoUaoon, 19th May, 1899. 44

an inerease of revenlle. Thai is what I suggested, that we have an extra supply. vVe have a supply fro·n the Coliban seheme, and we ~hould be treated the ~ame as other district~. I am aware that we only pay 1% per cent. on the whole outlay-that j,. the whole scheme. As part of the collsttmer,;, we think that as to collectiug d10 water rate~ when we collect the municipal rates. that is a mnt,t .. ,,r of detail. I do not think our council wonld take the re,;ponsibility of doing that.

. 567. 'l'o Ji1'. A. Hartis.-VVheu the rer<olntion was pas:;cd at the ptthlic meeting offering to pay a h1gher pric<) for wat:er supply, it was done [or this reason: at. tlntt time we were getting· n. vet·y inadequate supply, and the hou"eholers s<it1 they were willing to pay half as mnch agn.in for an adequate supply. That was hccau~o the position was foreed on them. It woul<l hardly b,. expeeted that any man would say-" I am going to give you Is. 6d." if he could get off at Is.

51)8. To 1Hr. Cmrcn.--Stuart Munay said that the pipe was laiu by apparently not a professional man. I think it wll.s laid by a Mr. Lutz, but I am not aware whether it wa,: when 'laior Conr:hman was Roerotary of Water Supply. '

John Bowe, swom and examined.

569 . .To the Chairman.-l am a contractor and brieklayer all(! mining speculator, living in Mal don for abont 4:5 years, sinee 1854. \Ve have many a time been short ol' water, a!lll I l!ave had to cart it. I do not live in the town, but I am intere:;,te1l in the water supply n~ applied to mining. I am a director of four or five ,[ilterent companies, and they have J'onnd tho pressure lmll on the milws. For myself, l live a mile out of the town, ontside of the ret.ieulat.ion altogether. Only the boilers of otll' mines nre supplied with the Coliban water. vVo never nse any of tlmt water in tlw stamp~, only for the boiler,; and the cyanide works. We have dams in de pendent of the water supply from t lw Col ibau ; sometimes the.'' are full nnct ,;omettmos they aro empty. VVe lmve the leaders on, and u~e tbo GoYernnwnt water all the time, and are quite willing to pay for it. We p:•y at the rate 6d. a tlwusnnd gnllous. I eonl,[ not :'tate what revenue we have paid; the amount comes in lo each bon.rd meeting, awl we nmy look :LI the matter. You heard from tho shire ,;eeretary the revenue from the boilers. Theru is 1w Colihan wntt-r used exeept for the boilers and the cyanide works. H we eould get water at the prc,eut tiHlO i11 the winter we would have plenty, and in the stunrner months wo wonld ''":: wh:tJ we lnd :'lorf'd ill the winter. They stop the pump,;, and there is a dribble running into the re~PI 1·oir. H tho UO\·ernnn;nt wem asked to lay out a cert,ain snm of money we should not say -" We only wnnt what \\ o want." \V e are open to pay for what we use. At the present time we nro n~ing the Coliban water. Tlw only time we 11se tile storage water is in the summer, when t.lte Coliban water is not to he had. \Ve pny jnH a,; mneh in winter time as in summer in the mines, as far a~ the Coliban water is coneerw:d. There j,, ver" little neenmulating in the dams.

i170. To ivi'r. A. Harris.·-If the snpply from the Govermncnt Wl!rk" was alllple we woul(l use the Government water. V\'o have never used our ow11 dam,; except when 1\'l' e0ultl not. get it from the Government. At the present time we are H~ing the Coliban water. If ,,.,. eould rely on the Govern­ment for a continuon" water supply we would not han; reeourse to the dam' at all and shonld not build one.

571. To the Ho,~. E. Jfore.lf.- vYe use water fiH' the boilers :111<i pay Gd. per thousand gallons for it, which is 2d. more than n.nv of the honseholders. Some of tho batteries have 60 head and some 40 head ; tho_v average abo11 t :t4 head of 8tampers. They get the water from the mines. They nso the Imder11round water. \Ye lmve quite on!licienl, fiJr battery purpose~. Some nsu 7-in. am! some 10-in. pumps. We take the water for the boilers from i he main, and we take that, ull the vcar i'tmud.

572. 'l'o 1rfr. _L liaTris. ~I lu~ve k11own the mine~ in Maldon to he s.topp('d [or want of water. Ouo ha,; stopped, the (iennaa awl Bf'chive Consolidnte<l, uow for six week'. About iweh·o months ago it cost u,; about £1 :L day. Wo g<,t a little from the mnin; they allowell 11s a little, \Ye kept one dray going all the time, and when wu eould uot find holes to cart from we ~topjK•tl t!H; mines, perhaps for a fortnight. In snmm(•r ~ometimes Wcl ,;hortcn hr.ud;;, !Jilt as a rnle wo oan kt:ep 1 h!' miner" going, if it is a paying mine, with other work. In tho particular mine that I spenk of ther<: would be al>Out a dozen knocked off, and in other mines they shot·ten a few lmnd~: I eould not, :;a\' IJOw Hmnv. The onil' mine I have known to he stopped u1tirely i~ the ono I mention. , They arc going into higl1:pre;,~ure boi1ors now and must have fro:;h water for their boiler8, and if dw Colihan scheme "upply f;tile•l they mu,:t stop opera­tions at onee. There ure three mine~ in tbo pla!)e How a11d two more pla,nt~ going up, all high-pros~nre boilers, and thE'Y mu:;t ::.top work with those boilers il' the fre8h water faih. It won!.! greatly advance the district to have a hetter water snpply. If tho pump stopped for three week~ in the summer through accident, no one would have any water oxeept tho housoboldt•rs. The mines must ho stopped. The position i5 proe:1riot1s, though we are better off this ymtr than ever we were before.

Thr• iCtfnt',"-'.;; I! ttlit,~rf'u~

.John Paull, sworn and examiued.

573. To the Chairman.-I am a draper and miuing invest,or, living in :Ylnldon. We are 8hort of water at time~. Twelve months ngo, for dome:<tic pnrpo~e>< we had none for as mnch a~ a fortnight at a time. The eau se of that wa~ n shortage of supply; the reservoir \\"aS empty. The whole of the town was short of water dnriug six 111onth,; if [go back twelve months. It was not because the plant was under repair. It waf\ in consequence of the dry season and the plant being inadequate fi)!· a supply to the people without any stomge. \·Ye l1ave to pay all the same wheth<?r we have it or Hot. \Va do not pay by 111easurernent but by rate. At. the time J speak of we supplied onrst>lve~ with dri~tkiug water from tanks, hut of water for general purposes we had noll(:. 1 have gone for a fort,night without a bath because we ha<lnot :!5 gallon~ of water for the Lath hefnre tho plant was eroeted. vVe ha"e only had two sen;,ons sillCe the plant wa~ there. Thi~ ~cn;,on, on aceouut of tl1e rainfall, we have had a good supflly, but during last summer the supply was not sufficient to gh·e u.; water for our gat·,Jens. We eonld not got this summer more than about 8,000 ~J:<tllons, and 1 would require for my pla<.~e, perhttpf;, 40,000 gallon:'. I would readily pay at the same rate for it and it \VU<tid p:<,'' Ul() IO do H). 1 i:H\() ll gnnJen or lthOilt three-quarter~ of an acre and the trees are nearly all dearl h.«~n , 1"(' uot ~llowe<l t" lmve water for irrigatiou. [ think a

JohnPaull, 19th May, 1899.

reasonable amount to pay for it ·.nmhl he about .fl extra; tha1 would be ample; that is, besides the money I pa;· for what I i[Ct. I am Jmyir:g £1 ;)~. now fi1r the water rate per annum. I think I shonld be regularly and properly snppliHl for that Ull!UUlH; r think it is sufficient to pay. but I would willingly give :mother :!;)s. if they would gi \"fl llll' enough ,,·nter f.>r my g-arden. '\Ve pay t.he ratus for twelve moutl•s, ami for ~ix months we have no water for gardeu pttrpo~e:<, allll yet we ha Ye to pay the rates the same. It i,; paying at the rate of about as. per ] ,000 gnJion~ i'or ,,·hat we u~e. I eould havo used, six months ago, 20,000 gallon5 if allowed, bnt I eould not ·get r,,OtlO, aml yet 1 had to pay for t!Je 20,000. If I only get ~,000 gR>llons for the twelve months :md pay 2[;~ .. that b as. p<•r 1,000. I woul1l have willingly paid twice that ammmt if they gavo rne a supply. Tlw rea.Hm we do not get it i~ because of the shortage of the Maid on main. The maiu does not earry eno1tgh \\'ftter to ~npply u~. It does not make much diffterenec whether you ta.kE> it out of the main dil·eet. The pump will throw it into the resE>rvoir and you get. a better pressure from the reserv:,ir than from the nutin. The pump was goiug, all the time there was sufficient water to ~npply the pump. That. sitow~ there was uot ~tttiieiOIJt t." supply the pump. It woulJ want a pipe fully three times the size to supply the pump to keup it thoroughly goiu:~ I think. Yoll mm:t understand if a pipe was laid three times a~ large it woul<lnot he ~utneicnt to keep the towu ~npplied without the pump to assist it; I suppose we are too high in the world.

514. To ilf1'. C1'al!eu.- V\rh"u thP slwrtage in the water took place, the Government wi·n~ allowing water to sluicers h1 Ca~tlemaine. If they had stopped that. it would not have made any difference to u~. '\Ve wHre not shut off; the pipes were running as mueh as they would carry. VVhen we were Hhort of water our eonBumption was very much greater. The pipes are totally insufficient t.o supply us in the hot weather.

57 5. To 11h. A. Harn:s.-The <lemand nmst bave increased. There are 50 per cent. more of the people taking the wnler. When they eut the 1n1.ttr ofl' for a tiny three <lay~ a week, it Hhows thnt they will not giYe the water. As to the offieials saying they were unaJ,Je from t.he pre~ent amount conserved t,o give a better water supply, it proves they could not supply the water. They have to cut ofi' one section to·day in onler r.o gi·n; it to another section, and the next section will be cut off to-morrow, and some on high gromtd wonlrlnot l!fJI. it n.t all. I could not Ray whether the Department "aid there was only a sufficient impply for dome~tie purpose~ alld irrigation on a limi.ted sc;ue. Tht> South German mine were willin1!:, six months ago. to pay more than they were charged. Thi;y must. have water for their chlorine works, anu they would use it for their cyanide works, and I doubt. if it is a dry sea~on, if they eau get it, and if they do not they mn~t stop the mine. The progres1:1 of the !listriet, from a milling point of view, has bct>n hampered and retarded for t.ho want of H better water supply.

;)76. To the Ifon. E. J1on'!J·-I t i~ the want of a bigger main-either a bigger main or some other mode of supplying us with a ~niticieiH;y of wrtter dming the hot weathe1·. I believe it' another large reservoir or two were built and lilled during the winter mouths, tklf would give us the supply required during the summer months. 1t might eost £4,000 or £5.000. I do uot think our rainfall is suffieient to fill them; hnt iu the wint<r time, the pump being kept going, conld Jill them, and thns give a ;;tomge for the summer. [think the best. me:tn,.; of supplying Maldou is what I my, bemtuRe the expense of bringing water, or layiug dowu a big maiu, would be so gn·aJ it won!tl eat it~ ht·ad off in iuterest. I believe the main:; are big enough if you have a Hntfhie;n ~tora)!<:., aml keep the ;;torage b!t5iw; full. It is not so much 1 be na:ans of eonveying n~ (If cou~erviug.

577. Since the uew l,igit-preAs;u··· lwil11r~ ••ame iu it i~ HeeeSS!lry to have fn·~:~ water for the boilers. A. little vrhile ago we had the luw-pt<''~:trc hoilers, aud they use.t tho mint'ral \\'ater, and what is the eonseqnence? Lately the rcserv"i ro. "·, c l'llll dry. Very few have O(;eu ablo to lw, ,.e two d.ams. In most places they eonld uot get the fresh water. '\Ve had an evidenee here that to meet the deficiency in the water supply the miues offered to meet the dcti<o:< ncy if they gaye ~ut!i.ciel!t water for the boiler8. They made a eolleeriou <lllHmg the emnpanie>, and ~ome gan: ~~~ mn!'h a' £2J over and abore the amount of the water rate. The Germau and BHehive mine lms been stopped for want of water before now.

i'i78. To irh. St.!Jlts.-My idea i~ to have a loco:tl reservoir, to be filled out of the mains already laid down, and it eould be constructed for about £;'i,OOO, :md we would not require any additional mains. The plaee is sufficiently high to distribute the wnter by gmvitatiou. I would suggest an ordinary dam across a gully. The gullies are high erwttgh to put a dam a<'l'Oos to :mpply Mahlon dming tbe shortness when the mains are not snllieient. Then: i,; one plact' about a mile aud a half away from here, and I would continue the 0-iil. wain to that re~enuir. Whc:ll the water i~ uot \Ynnted in the winter I would fill it up. A reservoir with a capacit-y of ~.5,000,000 gallon,; of water, I thillk, would meet the requirements, and I think that could be had witloont lll!leh difiieulty. ~ow we get rdtog!'thcr ahout 40,000,000 gallons per annum. The pipu i.' nttlnin'-!', but the pump ic; rwt IJ~(·d the "'hole of the rime. J think that during the winter it would corryey enough to ketlp tlw towu goiug alld store 2.3,000,000. gailons fm the rcsel'Yoir. That, of eonr>'e, is a matter li•r nn C'ugiw·er; l am ~imply g1•ing hy per.;omd oh,;ernttion of the 1nrter going into the reservoir dmiug t.lw winter. I I' the£,),()();) tliat l sugg·est. m·re oxpl'l!!le,J that would not. ~!we the expense of the ]lllllljlillg plant, hc<·am;e the rwwwtt of water carric:l to the place whew :you l'Oil>'trncted the resenoir, lJy the onlinnry pipe, would uot be Rntlieient, bel'au,.;e the pump eould throw npleu tirnes more water than eould Le earricd tluongll tlw m:tin", 011 neconnt of the hoight. lf'there"m·voir i~ only a milennd a half away, yon must remember it i~ ti1P height :m•lnot the size of t!•e pipe thnt mnt't he taken into con­sideration. If you have a rice ol' onl,r 2:l feet in 17 miles yon cannot get much wnter out of a 6-in. pipe. vVith that fall with a pump at, :lOO feet lower fordug the water up it makes n grC'at tlifY(>:·euce. 1 do 11ot think you ca11 ;,an; tht· oxp(:!I<Sc' of lltc pnt•Ipiug pl:~<d ut,k~ . ., you put i11 atr extra. lnrge main.

The witness wititdrew.

Charles Gray, sworu and examiJJed.

5/9. To the [!/,airman ... . I arn a mit1ing m~umgN at :\lal<loH. l am cmmected with the .iY1a.ldon Goldfields Limited. 1 nm ~orry to ~~~.r I han not plout}' of wat<'r. I ha,·e snflieienl for my hoilen;, but 1 ha,·e had five months !luring which l had 110 water. I had prolisiou marie out of my owu hrackbh water for the boiler. 1 am making a <lam 110\\' f(lr another plant which I am putting up. I have IWYer been ahle to depend on the maiu, clO 1 lmYe had to depend on the water of the mine itHelf. I am not extraordinarily high up, hnt the mine i;; :t fairly good height. I mn partly supplied hy the main, and I am charged 6d. a

L1unles lTray, 19th May, 1899. 46

thonsmHI gnllon~ for what 1 !-(et from it. use fi·om i;'i,OOO to 90,000 gallo1•~ a lllOllth, but [ am likely at the pn;,Cilt monH:tlt to want ahont 1hreo timeti that :unollllt 0wing to tlw plan I that I :u11 putting np, and I woul<l <:ertahlly be glad of a fi1li snppl,\· nt. a fair rate ol' pay.

Di<O. 1'o !lh. H'hite.-I was the tiiOllthK without a drop of water fn:11 the main. I JlHl<l<l appliea· tion for a snpply. The eouncii ha,I a ~npply in lumJ at tltc time. In November, 1897, I was stopped from that date till .March, 1898. The pnmp waii erected at the time, and tile eouncil bad the affi1ir in hand. At tl1e time it wall a question between the in~pector aud the conncil to sec whether they would pump. The pump was not then nndet• t-lw control of the conncil. It wa;;; owing to the 1\H;t of Mr. Gray, the president of the shire, aud myselr that it. was takeu over, v\' e >'a ill it would he better for them to ehm·ge mi 6d. a thousand gallons and supply us us the pipes were there ,in;;t the name. The co1mcil eoultl not supply it, but when the Govcrumcnt took it over they supplietl i1. That was hecauo;o the council would not go to the expense of pumping. 1 may tell yon that J spoke to .Mr. Gmy about the wnnt of water, and he promised tltat the pump shoulll he ~tarted the next day. 11 was llearly n fortuight before it was started, and 1madc provision myself. The Goverument have Hllpplied me f~tirly well 8ineo then. J had uot cmn­municated with the Government and asked them to Anpply nw with w~tler. lrw• not prepared to say there is plenty of water. I think a bi~ mn,in is the thing that is wauted. 1 heard the la..;t witHcs~ who said that the main wa:'l ltig enough without a reservoir. 1 have not exac1ly gone into tbe m11tter of wlwt we have paid d11ring rile la:H ~ix mont-h~. I can only ~peak for the mine. l take it that f'orthe last twelv<' months it would amount to £25 to £30, roughly. I haYe h:t(l Mnffieinnt water f'or m,Y boiler. I would not luwe used more wat<>r <luring that time if we had hnlf-n-dozen re~pn·oir~. Providing J l:nuld <.lcpend 011 the water ~npply, 1 wunld not eonstruct dams. If we had plc11ty of water I :;hould say there would be an iw·renl>e of 300 p<:r cent., or thre0 time~ the amoutlt of water taken hy us. ] wouhluot "ay the company would give a gmwantee to nse that 'JlllH!tity, but they 1roul(l do whatever wus just and right in the matter, The district is improving, and 1 have 1·eason to I helien: wilt improve more, ami Llwre will be a hu·ger consumption of water Ill the <listrict. I think 6d. :• very amount lo pay for water. The Broken Hill Company only pays that amount, and they have a larger coustmction tllllu you hnve.

•581. 'l.'o ifh. A. Ha1'ris.-I think the district as a minin~ district crtunot properly prosper and go ahead without a very mueh better w:tter snpply. As a practical man, knowing what the district is with the meagre water supply whidt wc have 1\0\\"_, I say if we bad a better supply the walcr could be uRod for various other things, aml I know <.:ertHin places where dredging could be done Rnd it would pay. I am not prep~ red to ~ay that n.ny quartz mining development is held bai:k for want of water. I do not think that ha;; been t-he dmwbaek altogether 10 I he growth of the place. 'Without :my mining, dw house development warrnnts a better supply. I could not ~pe<~k about the allnvial prospects in the district; I have only been here three or four years .

. 582. 'fo th; Hon. E. J1ore.1f.-From my experience the wnter gch; le•s in the mine;; as we go deeper. I eau :;ttLte without fear of contradietion that with the water I hanJ in the mine at 2:Hi feet and ;)30 feet there i~ nol a drop I.Jelow that. Ir that water falls off we must have ,;mne ntlwr supply for the batteries from some\vhere. I Jo not think the rn·(·~ent main is big enough for tlmt.. J think a 10-in. or a 12-in. main would l,e required.

583. 1'u 1lf1·. A. Harris.--There is pumping going on in eonnexion wit.h the mine,;. The water got from the mines is bmckbh, and. it affcet,; the boilers if used by forming a cru,.;tatiou of salt and eorroding the boiler, which is rendered unsuitable for its pnrpose. The hrnckish water may do for battery purposes.

1'he witness 1m:thrlrew.

Cad Hacsler, swom and exullliHe<l. 5H4. 'l'o the Chairman.-l am a farmer, living south of }Iah1ou, down rowards the Castlemaine·road

about a mile aud a half from Maldon. J have 110 water at all, except n dam I have constructed, which when the clerk of the weather favom~ ns with min, is full. I have heeu using- water from the pump I have been :J9 years on the farm. 'When I Jir~t. went there I was dep"ndcnt on the clerk of the weather and got it where I cc,uld at other times. The rain ill never given when we are roaily in noNl of it I have made a dam, originally about 8 f<.'Ct (Jeep and 40 feet in dinml'!or. 1 hold ;)() acres of land. The dam would not hold more than n :mpply for three or four month~. I Jmye about a dozen heat! of ('attle which go to drink at the Jam. I woultlltavc nuule Letter al!'allgemeut for the storage of wntn had I not received a promi"o from the Departme11t. 1 applied ro hav(; the meter laid (!own to my pla~e from the first time that it was got in :M:aldon. I had a reply from the Department which I lun·e lo~t which was worded to this effect-'· Dear Sir. 1 lmve mneh plea~nre to iuf~Jrm you that your requisition is agreed to by the Department, and the work will be carried out a-; soon a;; pussible. Yom obedient ~ernmt, .Tolm Kamp." But it has not come yer., and that i;; twelve years Hg'O. [ could not tell you when the t.:lianncl was brought from the :J.lalmsln1ry HosetToir to }[aldon; 1 :•uppo;;u nho11t fiftei•ll yenrR ago. 1 wa.-; Jiyiugin the Hamo place <luring 24 years before that, and we often experienceil a ·want of water. 1 bought :• tu11k ami went UO\Yn

to Smith's Hoof dum that wa~ cowitnwted by some mining company. TlHJ dnm wa>< lefL :111<1 the water was the;·c [or any oue who wanted it. I have three guh-auized-iron tanks that. would hold about .500 or 600 gallons each, and I have done all in my power to provide for my . .;elf', 1mt the last two year~ have been very bad. I tbonght if there wa;; lobe such a luxury provide,! as u goo.l water :mppl,v I :Jhould have a first claim on it, as I helped to build up the co.nntry iu paying my rates, aml so on. I nm IJOW mted at 27s. a year, and I beliel'e if the Department ha1l laid the wat('l' on they would have stncd oeven families who an' now left out iu the cold. l pay 27~, and there are seven f,1milies who woul(l be rated ltt the same, I suppose. 1 think if the Dep:u-tment lookeLl at it fmm the proper point of view that amonnt woulll almost proYide the interest. on rho ont1ay incnt';·e,l for supplying n~. The first rime 1 applied for the water thev asked ,5 per cent., and tlwn tltey asked for 6 ver cm1t. Certainly, to a el'rtnin extent, 1 think it is thr~uah the minillg managers :;aying if the water wa~ laitl <lown tu Ill)' pl:H•e, which is ahout tl1e lowest point.~ we wonld have water when they would have llOllc, else I tbiuk it would haYc been laid on before.

58ii. To Jh. St.tJles.-I wish to he tmder,;t,ood to ~ay that, I reeeive(l a let,ter ~aying they would lay ihc water 011 to my premisP:; as soon as possible. It wa~ when :\lr. (now Sir) ,John .Mclntyre went to Enghuul. I left the ldte;· with his son in Sandhurst about fifteen years ago. I \Yonl<l be willing to pay a little extra for t!te water if the council would lay the w:tt,er on. I am the last .on the list, and I would pay a little more for the sake of the others.

Uad llae:;ler, 19th May, 189D.

GHo. 'l'o 1l1.r. A. llarris.-\Ve have, in :~ hody, made npplit·ations ro tho council since the one I made. and the la~t reply we had wa~ lo r.lw eJrt·t·t llntt ll~t·.\ wotdd gi1·e u~ the IYnter provided we uug the trenc-h nud iilled it 11p. 1 wo!l!d lt:t·,e Hwl··rtal.m, it pi'oyj,;ed !]u ]),·partmt:ut WDtdd eompen:<ato us iu tbe water rate, hue ilwy wou[,[ uol. TiH·Il I :<Hknl j:· tit•·y \\'o:dd gin: !!:' ),•w;c [(, dig the treneh contract, aud we got uo reply. Then we let t.lw mnlt,,r drup. Tlleu we a,b~d if ,,.l, eonhl any OllC eomiug to built! on th~ line, and we l'c>cein;,) the :cpiy-" ~otltiug of the kind."

The witness with<lrew.

,1:t!HC:' l'euru~e, ;-;worn anti exnmined.

587. Z'o the Glwirman.-.J am tt mining Hmnnger of the Derby United Company, Mnldon; l have been here sercntecn or eighteen yc.1rs; Jlut m:m:tgur or the ,.;:;rno claim nil the time. \Ye emp1uy about 86 men lx;[OI\', and we l1:tvc 21 or 22 m,:n at the b:t.\it:ry: '"''T !i:J men working altogether. .\.t tlw present time we have a ~11r!ieieni s:tpp!y of water, b·1t we 1~::\·o mu short in dw ><HIIJlller :ime. \Ve have a dnm, but do not ll.'o the water for boi]r,r purpOH?S. \Vc are Ilea:· ti,<: tow:;ship,a!Hl han: no place to mukeadam, and there is no water,.;ht:d, being so near the towu, to fill a dan1 for the lmtterie~, We arc nsiug 280,000 gallous of water poi' mor1th, aud for that we pny ()d.['('!' tltousaml. If we lH~tl a coi!O'tant Sllll]lly we would u,.;e lllOl'(' than tlwL :-:ometimcs in tbe :'1!11lllH'~· lime we ltav1' to ttHJ thP wn.tor out of tht· mine. \Yhen r.he other water L' ~hut <liT \\C lane to U:'<' tl•nt. \Ve would 110t ll."e th:tt if we ('OH!d get fresh water at a 1'<-i:l.i"Ollllldo priee. l cunld !Jot !Pll c·xae!ly wh:ll alliOI!llt, we chonl<l pny, ],ui the !a,i year we have had a hetter snppl.v than huforc. \\'<• a.re H qnaniil_v for the chloriuo nn•l <·ynuitle IYOrks. Sometimes we lw.\·o to a<e the mineral wat'·''' f(J!· ilml. SOillUI ime~ we nsu le": than 280,000 to :JCO,OO~) ;.ndlow'l a mouth. I conld lint say wh1tt we would n:m. l do not, think OJH' eonwmptioll would exceed ;)OO,tli'O gallons a liJord.li. vVo lwvn lWYCl' bePn kept id[(• l'or \Y:llll of wntor, as we have use:l the miuc water. \Ve have not Hltorteued OIP' hand~, hut w1: ha1·:· lnlll "'' in<·n·nse•i itnro. Wltt•Jl w<· e:tlll!Ot the water it is ,·imply hecnJJsc it is l!Ol· to l•e !.(i:l. lt is no ll'e to a~k i'"r water whe11 there i~ li"JHl iu n:,;ervoir; they eould not Sllf>llly it if it i" 1:ot !hen:. \\' c· lutve n6kcd for it r,:pentc>dl)-, awl Wl' c:tl!llur get it, hnt not. tho la:'t six montil,;. \re lwn: had n suppl.\· duriu~ !lilt! time, o1· pcrhap,; a Lttlc llJOre, ;.;i::ee the pump ha:> beeu ereeted tht>y have gh-en UB a larger :•llp]'ly, hnt whL'Il the dowe~tic ,;npply takes tlw wnter we have to do without. Wu got what tlwy ea.niJut u~c·. Tln•y ha1u the iir.'! daim, all,[ wlH•,J tit!'}' wrtnt ir we have t.ogo short. for 1 hem.

i\8H. To Air. W7tite.- '\Ve have hedt Mhorl the la~.t C'igltteen mouth~. \Ve lun·e made application to thMP who were looking after the water. They wi!Hs it j,. not then:. I b:ne gone nntl asked why we eould not. gdt W'Jter, an:l it was :'imply I.H':W:<l; tlw \\'atcr was""" there. Tlw pnmp ha.' k:en there for a eonple of H::ns, ltnt. it. w·;t:: k<•ot idle for :1 <'(•rtnitl tllll<'. llntl we lwd a f~tll :<111llllv dnritw d1:· h>'t Pi!!htmen month~ we. ~hould lmn; paid dw (ion·rttmcni 11 ;(<>o.l hit. !>:Ore. ! Ln1" 1•ol kt p'• ',,;, ::<:< n::_J,:I ui' wlmt ',;,P paid, hut I think we ~iton!tluse :?0 per m•nt. mure ir 1n: h~<l n ~nflieie1tl "lJ>Jd'.

The witnua withdrew.

George .JleArth:tr, ,;wm·n and •·Xa.mine,J.

089. To tf,.e C!wirnw.n.--1 !tlJI n retirc•tl bnker, living 111 :\.::tl.Jnu. I !tavu been here 45 yean:. I 1!:, vc· llOI in:JOII short of ··Y:t.t<'l'. 1 n t hi~ mu,o eyen• 0110 wlto ha~ spokeu on this snlJjcct hns spoken from an iutt rested point of Yit!.,,.; I ~r<"nk ,[;,iutrTestcdlv. I am not interestetl in thL• water lill)'jlly, bnt I would like ro show yon how 11·e 1·onld haYe' n. supply. All our tronble ha:; ari~eu bince we IIHd :ho Colihan water >'li]>pl,L Prior to it;; coming there wa,; eomparatively little tronble in ~etling a water ~apply. ln liiO:if. in:'L:mee~ people had their own d:m~>', H!Hl there i,: no o1l1er town in the colony thnr i~ ;.:ti well ,,[tuatu<i naturally as IH' arc for com:erving our OWl! local ~>npply. There is our uJount witlt gn!liefi all ronud, all(] ilwrc it> a rangu tt1 thl: uorth, and if you look ai it yott 11·ill see tl](' f:tcilitiu~ we have for eo!l,erviug· Olll' 0\\ll water ~npply. Onr lower rescrYoir was on.:rflowiug 'n t :!2utl oi' .:\i::y. l live e;o,.;e Ly iL arlll f••r four JllOIIths :>.f'ter tltat tire water !'an ste:ulil,'' paM right in front of lll_Y tLJor. I speak ot' somr•. ymrs ago. l11 tlmt four tuontll:.: there ran to wa~to ,;nliici<:Ut to lmYc tilled the lowor resenoir thrc<' or t'onr times PVC!'. Tht· last tlln•c vtar~ thnt has not bee!l the ease. One ib;ng th:ll llllci h\'l'it uacxplaim.:tl i:•, thal within tlw last twei~e lll"ll1.ll8 the pipes were semped, aut! that has nonrh· doubld the snpply coining lnto the tl:un. Sht<'l' then there has been no scareity, so fi1r a::< the ltoiL·e" aro eOIH'orucd. There wa~, pro\'i<HI·· to the l,ett(•r sHp,H'Yision now

a great deal or wa~Le in the locall!anlon~. 1 often go round ar. uigltt fr,r "'" aml I ean some-the hose~ hi,~ing a~ I go T:,ar i~ llt'arl;, tlone '"ray with now. Lut 11:('1'(" i . ..: ~:itl some of it

gning on. ln oue ca:-:n 1 enn ~huw a 1nan ·wu:-- (~Onlpcl!etl tc) hHvf': a tn~·tcr put OH. l-Ie \\'H:O: tH·euf\-tnmed to lw\·e a !Io~o on, and wastc<l tL·!lH of Iitou~:mds or gallons, whou he wa~ Jlll,Ving ;iw minimum price, One night. lH~ lel't it running :dl ni!:lit :tJ!,·r lw had the meter, i!lltl lw found the Iw·l(·r lmLl rcgi~tl·red ;),000 gnllons agaiu~t him. ~ineo the pipe:.: lu;ye l•ce11 ~crnped last year, 10 !lot hu~ hl·c·11 the lea:.:l qnantity in each of rhe rC":;ervoirs. \Vith n:gnnl tn tlw pumpi11g ('ughw, I \\"<1..: lt~\olinded 11·hen I hvanl :\:Ir. H:oll::son's tigur('~ a~ to rbe ,-mull a1nonnt paid the mitJiug eompnuie~-£2t),') for ~~~Jti. i Jir::l from rho Tarteu-!JOII'PI' J'imr:J< d 1\tio Dcet·mbPr, S95, that Mr. Gnty, tl:t' pi'(·:,i,knc of ill;· "hire, at n public meeting. ::.t whidr }[r. Henry Uort• ant! }lr. Stuart. }lurmy IH'l'Cl [H'I?l!t'llt, held i11 )la!don on the 9th JJt'l:t:mbcr, IS9:i, promi..:(;~] that •·er:ait< mm:n,:! e<nup:lllie..: w•ntltl pay .t:;J:;(I :1 yea!' for a full wnter supply, n;ado up ns t'oJow~:--O~wald'~ mnel!iue, £1JO; Snnth Cerlllnn, f -W; Snuth German Extended, 1:-;-,j; Derby awl Beehive, .t]\)0; E:<gleilawk C'Pmpan.\', £9;): 1otnL {:],)0. He ~aill the above mines won],[ guarantee th(J al.Onl payment:; for :1.!1 fltll'<jllltle 8!!Jlply or Wl\tcr. Tlm:. \\'a,; \\'hen the people were ag-itating for the pumping ongiue, Tbe1· uow a" far :1,; [ :~m nwarc, for ll1c l:tHl twelve months a fnll n.ml ade(jll111e mpply, and yet wu i<HI'e tl!t:Jil only payin!,i .t2fi!5. 11ot hali' ol' wilitl : gnamnteed. All Olll' troubles ban: ari:cmt c:iw·e "nr conn,•xion witl1 ltw Cohltan, an.! I belil'\';; :\lr. \VIdr.€'. Oil\' olde,d:. mini<lg manager, will b~ur me ont, and l1e ha,; never a~kctl for thi,.;. Jlo lm . ..; nu ahm1dauee uf water. 11e ha8 told me he has m:ver been ~hort of water, au.l eo11ltl lt>tYe HWre by fllrtlrer excavatiug. The waste of water in

George McArthur, 19th May, 1899. 48

the tovrn has been shameful. I !wow of one case, a uca.r noighhnnr of mine, on being remonstrated with for allowing her hose to nm an day. ~;tid~ .• 1 Hill Lr lfll! \\:llt'i' mi:l I will have it.," and I believe instead of mkiug the 20,000 gallotl" slw wa.-; Clll:: to, ,.he rnn oH proLahly 100,000 gallon~. That is really al! t!t·· ('.\'ideue<; 1 liant to or Cuiii'SC, as the Culilllill w::tcr i~ ll()\\' Uli it mig-hr he preserYed as an auxiliary. Thr-re was no sqn•thhlinp; boforP 1hn1: we wPn' more• ,ei!'-roFaut. Ouc: witne"s ~ays he ha~ been without wnter for lh·e Ill<>lltli,;. and hP hno< the iine8t sitP imn!!in:thlc l'or ;; dam. Thi." is a uew man, uot ihere bPfm·c the ('nlil;an "<·hemc wa;; ;;n. .IUr. \Vhitu iln~ a-,q·n·e•i ln•; that he ha~ never l•eeu without. watf'l' in his 0\\'11 dams. Hv gPt• it jnsl fJ·•·Jll the· hills l'!Jlllld, in-t from tiw rain that fnlk r think the averag(• mini'all bere is from 2.'i to 27 ill(~he~. lf n dalll or re,,;;-yoir were con~truct.ed fc;r thn general use ol' tit(' people here, I think w<· nrP (['lite ('•lp:d,[,, of •loi;1g it c;nrsr:lve~. l pay £1 a year for water, and I do uot n~c n hose. l r:av 1 hnt l do not. l•uvotHl ~0,000 gallons, but I could do without the vmter, ha\·i11g a. large ltwlcrgr:mmd 1ank. The ~lwnhl be domi away with whm·e there is no meter. Haven meter and IN people JHV for what they l!s(·. and 11o 111ore. I hnve a small flower garden which does nor rc:qniru HHH:h WHter; idlOIIt n <lozen lnwker." a dav will ,\o for h. I think that the locality of 1\laldon, within a certain nrc•a of tlH· town, is of pro,·i<ling the wator for itself and paying for it. There i' no town iu the country better it, with an enlargenwnt of rhe pre~ent re~ervoirs, awl. with one at 1\ug!):ety (; 1illy. you coni.! ;;a vu ill one year to last for r.wo years. 'l'ltey could be filled wi1h the rninl'all with pn•pcr eolltour dmin,. I linYe 'N:n tlh: lower re"'corvoir with one night.'s rainfn.ll filled to overflowing. I cauuot tell the :m'a ul' the watcT,hed of tlwse re~ervoirs. 1 camwt tell whether there is r;utlieient miui':JI! i1: !hat Hea to supply 1he town oth(:r than from my own observation. 1 think 1he :;tora.c: capn.oity <;ouid be more than doublet! by excavation. I have an interest in my lwme, that i~ all. 1 am not a. speculator. l 'peak from 11 di~inten·;;te<l point of view. I wonlcllike to see the dislriet go :dH.·ad, only I hate to see us going to rhe Govc·mmc:nt for l'Verything, and there has been too much of that done in }faldon. J have uovcr heeu a Inembcr of tl1c "hire council, but I have had many opportunitie~ aud have often lmP<l askPd to stand.

,)90. To the Hon. E .• Uore.lf. I oppo~ed the laying down of th" pipe~ the uigl1t that Sir ,John :lYicintyre came and pr''i'o~cd the scheme. 1 do not 8ay thnt .I \\'fii, lH>·>ied dow11, hut I was opposed. That was sixt<'en year:; ag•:. 1 lun<· aitond,.,J nearly alltiJe nwelings on 1he ~nhject, ami have met with n grea.t many relnrtf, OV<'r thu mat(or. I adn>cated the ro;;enoir,;. For the nppl'r reservoir JYir. (.;ordon was theu water ungineeL :tlJ(l his f'~tirrmtr' wa~ nhont t:.J.,OUO. Tl1e eolllll~il f"Pk it in hand nnd had a contract for making the embankment at. £8UO, mu! that work was dm1e in a VPry ~!'ampcd wuy. lt was rut properly looked after. After dial tltere was a top-pice<; put 011 at, a ec.,,t d £100. fqr whar 1 do HOt know. The top-pieee was consi<lernbly nbovu the by-wash. Altogether, the n·sd'vnir ecsl about £1,000. Thnt was done by the shire eouneil. It has i;eet: lm1 ky. 1 am 11ol an J•nginec>r, t\llcl 1 am nor praeticnl a.t all ; I have no pract.i<•nl or teelmieal knowledg"· so that what I nm now snying i~ all theor.'· Oil my pnrt.

691. 'To 1l'Jr. Cw1nn.-·l eonld not. say the cnp<~city nJ' the resi'I'Ynir I propose, but I should say about 12,000,000 gall":"'· I think >.re hnY<l a proper snpplr now il' we only looked after the r!'~ervoirs I speak of. One at :r\ nggety Gully uncl the oiher at Bntr's (}nlly would, I know, catch plenty to supply all our requirement.,. There h:1s huun a ;;urn;y made of the plae('~ I IHCI!tion, and Mr. Stunrt }furray h11d a scheme to co~t abont ,£I S,OOO ; that st·heHw wn;; lJC·fore t.he ral<'pnyors, hut ;hey were eo infatuated with the Coli ban scheme rlw: 1 wonld not look n t. ir.

592. To 1Jf1·. Thl're hnv<• lH'l'l1 hnmlr(•<ls of thomand~ of gallons lost here, and simply through want of mu1ers. Tlicv an· l!Ot ai'o,n·d to water laru:c garden< withont a meter. bnt it is done. They do it l bron,!!'h lax ~IIJlPr\'i;;ion, t tiw snpervi~i,:n 'het tPr t!OW. That better ,Anperdsion commenced last sumtucJ'. and it is fairly satisfactory Jtow. lr tlmt snpervi~ion i:; continued there will be a great saving in the future. Peoplo were using thre<' or four times ns untcli n.s they reqnir~d, but they were tletennined to havo t11e wnter. although doing har111 to their plot;; by over-watering. It \Y!tS a great staggerer to tlw pcrwn leaviHg rh<' hosu nwnil<!..( nll night when he saw tbe nwter. I could quite believe that the meter rPgis1'ered eoJTectly, bel'au:w I kllew il.u quantity he was n:<ing.

The 'IIJitnes.~ withd·rew.

,John So mer, swom an<l examined.

593. To tlw Chairman.~ I am a h:g·al matlnf'el' inJ.1aldon. 1 ha\·e bec;n here for Reven years. I am manager of four c~i:lim~. Two are suppli,.-l from the Colihnn ccheme~thc Gern•nn aud Beehh·e and the Derby I:ni1ed. La.>l ~nmmcr we wew ~topped tJmcc wi10lc mouths for wa\11 of water in the German aud Beehive, :md were p1n to mneh inCOJl\·eniunce i11 tlw Dcrh~· United. \Ye >.n·ro fre~h warur before the scarcity emne about, :11:1l tiH'Il we bad to tak(' 1 he ll!'at·ki~h watm from tiH' miliC>. That pnt 11,; to great expensu on account nf iht• cm;..:tation in the boiler~< ne<·e~~itatiug the l'xlru cleaning out. Ao f.lr ns lhe Beehh·e and Gerwnu ir~ eoneet'II('d, we we-m [HH to expe11~c and lo,;,; of tiint·. W<: hncl nbont ;30 mea employed at the time who were iti.e. We l,ad to pay them all off \Vu WPn: nut working, hut there were a few kept a.bout the mine• t.o <·ompi,,- with tLe labom t•m<·IJ!IHI:•. TliC old}· wnlcr wu hnve to fall bek on is the braekish water wc pull out of rill: mine. \Vu cnltllOt 1l.'t' ihat with tite Beehive :.nd Cenll:lll, h"cuu~e we have hig·h-pret<l'lll'c' iH>ikr~, wllieh :ne becoming uniYC'I 'ally ll~<<:<l throilgln>nt the district. The high­pressure hoilt•rs have been i1I uo<co two n1· thre" n•ar;; in Jl.falrlon. ~iiH'e the• marbinery was put on the claim first, tWO year,; ngo, Oil tlh' J1t'(•JJI\C lllHl (tel'lllllll, cl>lliJHii'tllg WitJ1 the JnHt ~llllllllCl', t]wre '\YH~ a better supply when i: ''a" put !ll!. 1 tlu nut k~tow wh<'lher thv iucr~·a"e nf populatwu haJ :my thing to do with it, but the towu, a~ a whole, wns short of walt'r I:J,,, snmmer. The mines emwlu!led that thev would get freed! watur .from the Colibau ~dH·mc to 1115 goiJtg, or they wc.uld 1101 l:avu put up the new machinery. ! think there ha,; been more Kinee •>H account ol' tl:e pumping plaut; but taking into a!'count tlte dry weather, we haYe not had as nmdt in Llle rC'H)n·oir. Lecnu~e rh<:>n• lm:> not bP(·n the rai11 to put it there. L have not.hiug to ~ay a~ to wl1y people !lo not lllllke pnniciion 1or tl1eir muchinery. The \nttor was not there for the ~npply thonglt t\H; eompany were agreunh.e to pay (m· it If rlu·v had it. They pay 611. a thnusn11d gallom;. 1 do uot know the tut:tl ren;Hue tu the (;.o\·enllm;ut withot:t looking at my books. I suppose the total re(~eipts fbr water required for miniug pnrpo""" have alruady hcen given by 'Mr. Rollason.

49 ,John ~omer, 19th May, 1899 •

. 194. To 1llr. TVhite.-It was about January to April of last year when we knocked the men off for three months becau~e we had no water. I know it W:J,S in the summer months. Ae to why a req nest for water did not go to the Government, it was simply b::;cause we were toltl by the person representing the ~nppl_r of water that we could not got any, and I t!id not, therefore make a further demand. I can prove beyond all don bt that we stopped for three months, and that the cause was Hmt we had no water for the boilers. The reprc,entative of the ''mter Bupply tohl us we could not it. I could not tell the date of that, lmt it was ahout the time that we lmocke,l the men ofr.

595. To 1tJ.r. Styles.-A mining nwnager has told you t,here WitS sufficient water to go on with, a~1d he heard from the man managing the watee here, ::Ylr. Rowe, that there w~ts no demand nmde to Lhe Department by me, bccnu;;e llooketl on it as frnideH~. The represeutaih'e of the wMer snpply call~d the inspector. I suppose he would be appliecl to 1hrongh the mining manager. I, a~ managcl', dt(l not apply to his superior officer. I know there were hundreds who complained of \Yant water .

.59G. To ~tfr. rV!tite.-Onr eomprmy ha~ not been in oxisten~e very bnt there is no doubt it was \\'aut of wate1· that stopped the mine.

il97. To 1"ffr. Styles.-The great waste of mtter that you have hearll of is 11. flea-bite and not worth speaking of.

598. To iWr. FVltite.~vVo have meetings fortnightly, and the manager reportell to me he haol not sufiieieut water, &11(1 that would be shown in om books.

599. To t!te Hon. D. J1elville.-It is duly mii.uteol that the mine IY<Jitld ha\'e to be 1itopped for want of water. I will fumish a copy of 11mt minute -iJ' it i:; ilesirer!.

600. To 1lb·. A. Jlarn:s.-Thore was no repn•sentation made to the Department at the time. A umnber· of men were omployo<l to keep the water tlnwu in tlto miue. That was required to comply with the labour covenants. vVhen om mine was stoppe<l for want of water I do not know of other mines in the distJ·iet that wereal~o stoppo·d from the same l'a'l8o. I think the South German was ,;topped. I know, as

manager of the Derby Uuited, that wo wc•re pnt to ineonvenionco for want of water. I believe the Mahlon Gohllields were sto]JpPd for want of watl:r but I cannot say 80 ou my oath. I heard somethitw to timt oiiecL The stoppa"e of onr mine threw ont about IUteen or sixteen men at the Beehive nml Gen~an. I hc~rd what the last '~itnesti ~aid, that there was an ample local water supply to be had. I know a lot about it, and I know that 110 maHer whatcror you st.art in the town that witue~s woul<l stand up an•l opposo it; that i~ what I think of his evidence. I think this, that ns far Hii his statement'! go as io wasto of wntOI', they go for nothing, because I do not think the waste of \Yater amounted to anything.

T'M witness withdrew.

John Hornby, sworn and examined.

GO!. To the Chairman.-I am an old resi,]eut of :M:aldon, virtually since Fehruary, 1854. I have been C'>titinuonsly eoJmc•ded with Maldon ever since that date, either oflicially or residontially. I ha\'C bet•n in ~ltn ltrtlo:t of nttendiug mueting-s as preshlent or the shire. There is n report of n meeting with which I wns connm:1<·u, held on the 2Ihl December, !8U.5-[pmducin,q a printr•d docwnent]-mHl I \nlllld draw part ieulat· atten1 iou to the part of the report attachiug importance to the a<l visabilit.y of iuerm,;ing the proscmt main. That meeting wa'O couvenetl by mysdf, ns preHitlcnt of the shire, and was belt! in this room, nwl after Kf.lveral speakers had t!eliverell thumselve~, thiH is the conclusion come to. Two members of the conneil, Councillor Den is mul Councillor Gray, had snlm1i11etl schemes for increm;ing the water supply, and the report Both proposals are designed to overcome a seriouR tlefect in Lut.z' scheme ; that is, insufficient elevntion at the 'offtake,' excessive mileage, and deep invert of the pipe track, cunsing retardation of cnrrent and congestion, Conndllor Gray'H pt·opo8al would relieve the congestion nt the outlet and diminish the pressure on the pipes at }fnckleford. Councillor Denis' propooal would increase the pressure 011 the whole column far above the testing standard of 300 feet vertical." Conneiilor Denis' proposal was to erect head-works at the ofitnke, aml it wns n dernier 1·esso1't tbat \l"e must take Councillor Gray's scheme or nothing. That was the result of the meeting which I refet· to, audit was earried that night that a deputation shonltl wait upon tho Minister of \Vater Supply, which was done. It was estimated that the co~t would J,e exeessiro, but we fonnd, by goiug to the merehants. that we could get :m eflicient machine fbr our for loss tlmn the estimate. The roport The pipes 110\V bear a pressure at Chewton of 270 ; CaRtlemnimJ, 4,1! feet: JVIucldef(ml, 4?)5 feet; Anstmlnsian, 223 feet. 'Mr. Lntz' route is not thnt for Maldon in the Coliban sebeme. The why shonl1l a new and larger main be laid ou a ront.e condemned, and the dirc·et route to the ? The adnmtages of a pipe conduit is to save milcngo, ~oakage, and presene purity. The scheme reverses the ideal by inereasing the mileage and pollntiug the wnter in the 0tornge hdore di8tribution to the consmners. As no more can be done to increase the supply fo: t lti~ s,:nso11 ot· SL'~sio11 of Parliament, nml there is fear that work will hn~'e to be provided by the State ior unfortmmto it would be jl!llirions io tr.v aml get them to compl2te the Colihau ehmlllels to Harcomt Reservoir, so that pumping he the ot!ly means of obtaining an mlnquate supply, the hy<lraulie power, now ueglcctetl, might, be availnhle when req11ired, or as auxiliary to steam pumping."

602. 'l'o .1.lf1·. Craven.--As to any other route for a serviceable pipe track ~horter than the present one, the original scheme when the Hill was passed was 1aking either a pipe or an open eh:tnnei to Boat­swaiu\ Gully, Harcomt, all(l then make for Mnldoll, You gain hcnd b_v taking the oliiake at the inlet of the tunnel inRtead of the ontlet, aud that "conld earn· you a eon~illPralJle distance. That would not take mon: nlilengo hut less t•l bring it by the original track," I n;ekon. There should not lle more length if yon tahe I [w whole length of li miles, hut you get rid of the invert nud a better traek, aml in~tcatl of ha viug a reser·voir here it ~honld be far away from the mines, a~ there is now that there is MOmething goiug into the reservoir which b injurious to health.

3109, E

50

"William Blair Gray, sworn and examined.

603. 1'o the Chairmctn.-I am a resident of :1Iahlon. My occnpation is that of a mechanical engineer. I haYe been 35 years here, and I am president of jhc .Maldon Shire. The amo11nt of the income of the ohire iH some"-'here about £600 in Maldon proper, aml of the entire shire about £1,,100 or £1,500 in rate~. Om total reYCmw ie about £2,.500. \Ye were fairly well supplied with water during the last tweh·o months. There has been no scarcity since the wet Reason, still in the summer that i~ gone we have been better sllppliod than e1·cr before in my opinion. It wonl1l not be correct to ~ay that during last ~ummer claims were at a :.;tamlstill for W!tnt of water; that was Leennse the raiufall is Ycry small, 17 to 18 inches. This season it has hecn better than it ··,nls for some years prior to tl11tt. That accounts for our

better supplied. In another way it is not the rainfall; it as~istcd us, but the pnmp has given us the b:J,hwee. The pnmp has been iu for two years or two years aml a half. \Yith the rainfall aud with the pump this last :season we were hetjer off than we were the He:1soa before that. I was inslrn­mental iu getting the pump, and it i~ quite powerful cnongh for nll tl1c water that comes into tl1e bm.in. \Vo can pnmp in sixjecn hours all that the pipes will giYo 111:1 in 2± hour:<. l do not think that the pipes arc too ~malL The reason of the is that from the he:ul-work~ to the dcliYcry the fall is not great enough. By gravitation yon c!mllot get, any more. The height of the intake at the Green Gully I am not quite clear r,b,:nt. l lltink it i~ about 280 foot from the pnmp to the nppc1· reservoir, and from the Green C~nll.\· to the JllliiiP is ahont J ,200 feet. l am not very clear about tlmt .. Thnt is f11ll enough to giYe liS water to pump in sixteen homs with a 6-in. mnin from the intake to the delivery. \Vhat I want to ~ay is !bat tl1eore i~ ouly lG feet gravitation from the illtnko to the upper rcsen-oir, hut from the intake to the pump thoro !s n r[,,o o£ 2RO feet. We got 13 cnhic feet of water at the pnmp, hut yon will allow me to ,;ay there i-; 21 feet fmm ihe i1!!ako to the pump. I am taking the g~uge at the pumping station, and it sbowF 230 Ceet that d:e wnter l1a~ to be liftc<l into the nppcr redervoir. l ~ay we can pump in Eixteen hours what the pipe cnn take in 24. bolll'i', The fall from the intake to the pump will be abont 1,020 feet; it e~nliFJt he any more. \Yill von nllow me to toll you what I h:we done in the council ? I have moved in the co;meil to get a ;Jew reservoir from the. GoYornment, and I will give my n'a&ons for so doing. Fer the ln:Ot t!,rt:e years, w ben the sca:'on comes round, we are only getting water, say, three or four times a week, on a1•eount of the consumption here nt the mines and for household 11urposcs and on a<:'connt of the dry weather. I lllOYcd for the eouneil jo moYe tbo Go,,ernment to put up another 1 e~en-oir for the eo as to annual! y 13,000,0()0 and that would s11it all the requirements, I thi;1k, at a 11<>;-;t n ,~, excccdiug £2,4CJO. The pHmping l1<mld <lone in three months, and if the wenther had any effect at nil it wou],l not take that tinlfl, l»lt that tink, with soli<l pnmping, would keep ns going nt t!Je prc~cnt time. The Inst. season we wore better supplied than OYer we were before. Of course, before that \\'O did uot get a ~upp!y for the miae,;, and some of them \Yore stoppctl and others were stopped pcriodiPaliy, an;J the lwnselw!Jers had no water, aml portion of the town only got water two or three ti111cs a week. The pipes arc .')-in. mul 6-in. Wlthont the pump the pipes will not supply the llCCe~snry water, and with the pnmp it has not done it. \Ye do not reqnire n unplicatimr of' the pipes. I wnnt to sh<lw that this Cfnestion of a 6-in. pipe ns against a 9-in. maiu has been thrashed out between the Department and myself bd(m:, aud lltave shown that if you taken 6-in. orifiee by gravitation which we have got l rmtde a cnbc box of l foot ant! put a hole of an inch and a half in the bot.tom, aml I put the whole of the wnter throngh that that is on neconnt of the 1,:361 and 1,340 of onr gmYitation which is only 21 feet. /<Iy contention is that if yon put in a larger main I think it wollhl be a wilful waste of

1f you tnke a proportion of one inch atlil a half, takiug all the water out of a 6-in. pipe, what it take if you pnt <lown a ~l-in. pipe'? I am willing to proye that less than 3 inches would tnke all

the waier. Again, eoming to I ha 1,861 and the 1,3-1-0, I sny I he pipes are ample, and the pump i~ capable of taking awn.y all the water t.hrtt. comes th1·ongh that, that is if wc had roscrYoirs to hold it. 'Vc want a reservoir to hold from 9,000,000 to 1:1,000,000 gallons more in rt freRh I am sgain tnking Mr. StLHtri Mnrrny's >eheme. lie points ont three places, ~uggnty Gully, Spl'ing Gully, and Lyall's Gully. I, for cheapnc~s, though a little bit lower, wonld prefer the Nuggety Gnlly site in preference to either of the two otilcr places. l think it would take ahoot £2,4.00 to make snch a reservoir. As to onr being quite preparctl to pay the interest on that money, Imny say that that question has cropped np in the eouncil, nntl rny unswer i~ that the ineren.sed r;:venue would pay 4 per coni. on the outlay. I think wo pay ample for the water now ; we pay 6d. per thousand for the mines antl 1~. per thonsan•l for household pmposes, and we fix the Is. on the ratec. The restridions are the llRual ones fm· honseholll purposes. Those who want to nsc more have to have n motor. For instance, take my own home ; I have the water for domestic pnrpoe<cs ami nothing ebe. Sometime~ 1 tnkc a little le~s nn1l sometime;; n little more. There is a big restriction; we h:ne n man in ('hnrgo of the water ;;eheme n.nd the restriction is :t very severe one. If he finds yo11 are using water for your garden he will cut it off, and where ho lms <lone so it has never been put on sine<>. I may say there nre a great many inhabitant~ here ~who hnve nice homes :uvl nice gardens, nml tlwy arc prepnred to gN the water a1Hl put some on tLeir garden.-; if the Governmtmt will allow them to inig:nle. \Ve cannot do dmt now because the water is not plentif'ul enough. I think we could do that with a now reservoir of 1:3,000,000 Thai. would rnukc all the t1iffr·rr:lHoe to us. The irrigation I &peak of iR only f<Jr gan!en not for mehnr<ls. \V c have no orchards to speak of in the town.

60 L To 11Ir. JIT!tite.~I the extm eonsmnption would p:ty ·1 cent. ou the extra onthty. The difficulty in the conneil mnki11g the deficiency is that we ore a with three ridillgs, anu yon canuot expect some ol' those ritlings to enter into :m agreement and bind t homselves down. I had to enter into an agreement with the Govcrnmeut when we got the pump to pay the defieiency, nnd I got the mine­owners to enter into an agreement thnt any deficipney in the pumping scheme wonl•l he p1~id by them. The first year we pai1l about .£90; the second year ::.1Jont tile Ramo; a1Hl after that l saw there was going to be snrplnB of revenue ; an<l then ro;:o the question with the Government as to who was to get the surplus after our paying the deficiency prf,viomly. They sai,J they wonld "collar" the surplu~. I demurred, hut ultimately came to an agreement with tlH' DcpartmPnt that thev would take the whole thinv over ami remove the embargo from the eOillH'il, on the condition that we paid 6d. per thon,;and for minf~1g pmposes. \Ye have three ridings in the shire, and the 1\-faldon ri1li11g is the only oue to benefit. \Ye cannot enter into an agreement as a riding, and d10 ditficnlty is that the other six councillors will not enter iuto an agreement, and hilld their rates to pay anything to oblige ns. I got them to do it once, but they wonld not do that again.

605. To tlte Gltai1"man.-Tho accounts of the different ridings are kept separate by us.

51 Wm. B. Gray, 19th May, lBUII,

606. To il£.1·. if'Mte.- \Ye eoultl Bhow the acconnts elonr OJiough, but it is a farming community outside of n~, aut! we are n mining community, and they will not enter into n1: embargo to pay. \Ve can only put a special rate on for ~pceial purpo8cs iu u1r own tow11.

607. 'l'o )lfr. Craren.--:Mv ~chemc is to bnild n re,-crvoir, ni a co8t of £2,400, and pump in the wiutcr montbs to fill it, and then" we wonhi not rennirc to tlnplicate the pipe~, aut! the increase of consnmp­tion in the town would pny interest oH that nmount.

608. 1'o tl1e lion. E. Morey.-If rho rc~orYoir were put in Lpll'~ Gully it would t:~ke 30 chains of pipes, ami if iu Xnggety Gully it would take nhout a mile and three-quarters of pipeH, and pumping would be required. :My estimnte tl(•cs not include pnrnpi11g. l 1hink that wo:1ld be the lH'Sl: place on account of the upper part of the town ; sometimes they Imn• JJOt water there for a fortnight at a time.

609. To 1llr .. '3t,1jles.--The tnwn proper will eoutain about 2,,)00 people to he ~uppliPd wit,h the wnier. I suppose, as near n-.; I could vet to it, thoro nro 50 dwellings more to he sntmliccl with water. My ~cheme woulJ supply more than tl~e .iO ndditi<mal. If my l:!r:home '~vcrc earricd out lt would cnpply, according to a ealcnlatiou which I have here, Pach inhabitant with 10\l gnllou~ a week. 1 entered mto thi': with the conncil to show that the )'llmp "'ou!tl do so-and-so, and that if we got tbo pump we woHld be Ill a good position, and 1 say still if the pump is kept going it will supply o:tr town, but the Depnrt:nent curtailed the pumping on the line:> of cccJnomy. They looked to the elemonti! to give the di1ferenee. If the population inerca~ed tile pump can only pnmp ahont 42,000,000 gnllon,.; amwally ; that is the amount that comes through the main. That tlocs not allow for a break-down. Tlmt is at 100 gnllon per week per hentl for domc,~tic purposes; that is ahout 5.000 g:dlons per year for each person.

GlO. The cost will be about £250 or £270 to clo that work. The water for the new reser-voir will he supplietl i)y the ch~rnent.;; atHI the p:cmp if my proposnl is ft<loptcd. The pnmp has been st?pped since the beginning of Nhreh, hnt we have ltad a good rmpply ; the season has b<een n _goo<l ouc. We have increased the water in the reservoir. and the dewcnts hnn.; done :-.o11wthiJ~:::. This season we hnYe lost very little in the reservoir, and the pump cuuld have Lceu pumping water into 'the ~pare re~enoir, nnd when the summer came ronnd we would lw.ve n re~ervoir w[th 1 ;J,OOO,OOJ gallons as a stnnd-by in hot weather.

611. To 11/r. ff'kite.-That i~ to :mpply the !JouseholJerA and the mines. There are no lmil•lings where we propose to put the reservoir. 1 do uot think thr:re are any honscs 011 rho entehmeut. area of about 130 acres. I now bear for the first time that there are t\YO houses on it.

612. To "~fr. A. Harris.-The ridino· immediatclv concerned in this sehemc is tl1e i\fa!tlon; none of the other ridings arc interested in nny wa/in it. The ~tmnbcr of ratepayers in the Maldon riding is about l,OOO o:· 1,0.50; that i,.; the votes 011 the r"ll. In order to make up the amount of intet'c~t on the outlny to provide the additional place fore •us;;rving tho water, the rJIIC~tion of the ratepayer~ of the riding concerned paying an additional rate for domestie ~npply and for mining has been ml:'cd. \V c pay Gel. per t hou~aud; we raised it I'I\)111 4d. to 6d. for mining pmposes. There are mines that would want ro get a snpply who are going in for high-pressure steam and compound engines ; they cannot do without frcf'h water ; it is an absolute necessity. Then ugaiu, on the lines of economy, it i~ the proper thing to do. The South German had four Cornish boilers, and their consumption of firewood was 120 tons a week, nnd a conwmption of 5~ tons per horse-power. \Ve haYe two boilers burning 72 tons, and our consumption i:~ nb,mt 4 to 4~ per horse-powel', so high-pressure is the better, but we cannot use the main water for boiler purposes. If the local conservation was adoptet1, 1 do not think it would be ample without. the ndditionnl reservoir. lt is a matter of utter impoor<ibility, and I nm fortifictl by ~Ir. Stuart. Mnrnt)', who s:-~ys the cost would be too great, and tho unccrtninty would be so great, that it would not he a good thing to enter into; if we were going to adopt a moans of conserving water locally that it would be better to coustruct another reservoir at a co~>t of £2.400.

613. 1'o 1lir. fVMte.-To lay the pipes from the Malmsbury Reservoir would cost from £16,000 to £19,000, nuda new reservoir would cost about £1,000 to £1,100. I never saw the estimate of the other one, but, I think it is about £1,500, and reticulation I am not clear n bout. Many years ago the reticnhtiou pipes were laid down by the town, or the Go,'crnment, I am 110t sure which, and after a good de:1l of agitation we got. the Government to lny more mains, nnd put the water on, and then they took the mains OYer. I could not give the eost. There was a guarantee given that when that was laid down we had to pay the cost, which came to £1,900, nwl if that '"as not paid the penalty was that they would cut the water off'. That was not paid, and the water was uot cut off. The revenue here, after paying for tlw pnmpiug, does not pay interest on the cost after paying for the head-worb. Our revcnne now is ahout £I ,000 a year, nnd off that ther0 i~ less than £;)0:1, so there is, you may say, £700 a year of nctu•tl revenue.

614. :L'o Jlfr. Styles.-! underdtaud there are about 2,:)00 people ht>re:.bout, and each i~ es(imatcd to use I 0() gal ions n week. I estimate about 13,000,000 gallons a year. That does not include all con­sumption. I reckon the mines will use about 10,000,000 gallons more. I think that would be t1mple if we had that for the present population without any increase. I know the qunntity now sent throngh the pipes, H,OOO,OOO gallons by gr:n·itntion, and by pumping yon can get 42,000,000 gnllons. We ouly get from the one ~ource. Speakiug of the .'i-in. main, 14,000,000 gallons nrc deliverccl into the pumping station. This snbjeet of the amount of water doliYered in the resenoir was discussell in the council. I ngain took a practical way of getting at it. I got an 8-gullon measure made, and l went up with the man in charge of the resen'oir and the engineer of the ,;hire and we tried the amonnt of wuter coming in and got at it. If only 14,000,000 gallons come in every year, and we use 10,000,000 gallons for the mines, that only leave;< 4,000,000 gallons for the householders. If the pipe wore dischargh1g at full bore all the time, and 14,000,000 gallons came in and 10,000,000 wont to the mines, the difference would be !Eft for the householders, and I say there is only 14,000,000 gallons delivered Irom the head-works into the upper reservoi1· by gravitation, hut if you ~tllow the wate1· to flow into the basin you can pump 40,000,000 gallons. Some more rnus into the upper resclTOir hy gravitation. The pipe is capable of dclinring 1;)~ enhic foot per minute at the pump. The \\'hole qnanlity of water eoming from the head-works eomc~ into the basin. That would deliver plenty of water at that le\'el. The dii'iicnlty is t<) distribute it. 'Ve wonbl !Ja,·o to 1ake the whole of it !10 feet, the differcnee between the hvo r2senoin>, ami we would have 1o divide the thing equally. The pipe wonhl deli1~or 42,000,000 gallons per annum, and the pump is capnhlo of pumping 36,COO,OOO gallons.

E2

Wm. B. Gray, 19th May, 1899. 52

Gl5. To the Hon. D. lJfelvil/e.-Thc ouly difficulty with us in paying the revenue is the wards. If we were to ask the people of this <listrict to get Parliament to pa~s a Bill and enable us to raise a lnau to carry out a cm·tain proposal they might agree, hut we do not w:mt to ask Parliament to do that; we intend to ask the Department to build the reservoir and do what they are doing now an,l take the whole of the revenue. There is a loss through parliamentary interference. I am ~ure there i~ a !'eYenue to he <ll'riYc<l if <lone as I sngge~t. A8 to asking Pndiament to enable u~ to get money and carry the work out in our own way, £3,000 would cany out the work perhups, pipes and all. If the Govemment will hand over the entire works in conjunction with this to us we will rnn the water Hcheme then on om own account, lmt they have tnkon 'our scheme over. I only want them to extend their own scheme, nud I show them there is a revenue to be got, 'IVe do not compel them to take them 'wer. I am not goiug to commit myself by :::aying I \Yill got I'arlinment to give power to b<•l'l'OW money for the sehome. I do not think the people \\'ould ask them. ]f the Government would hand over the mains and re~crvoir and pump, we will find the £2,600 aiHl build the ro..,ervoir. I have nothing to do with the deficit. vVe ha Ye been paying an average of 8 per cent. on the £20,000, aJHl the Government have receive.d that. I want the whole of the works handed over to u:;. It wonld be unfair fiJr the people to step in and ask the Government to do :mythiug of the kind you mggost. We only want to get an adnmtage, and are prepared to pay for it. To show you that we would do it, I got them to put the pump up, and it was a proved s1H~coss. vYe undertook to pay any deficiency, am! when the GoYemmeut saw it was n financial success they took the whole tiling over. We only want them to ex!ewl that. SappoRo we get the pump back again, and carry out 011r ow11 propo;;als in om own way, I would be very pleased, speaking as the president of tile !:!hire, if yon will hand the whole thing over.

616. To the Chwirman.--Out of onr main from Green Gully, I kno\Y of no other portion snpplied out of our plaut. H \HJ had the plnnt and the !Jew reservoir we wonltl still owe the £20,000 that the work eost. It is still a dol>it ngains1 us. They offered that if we paid :3 p(·r <·ont. for twenty years tha.t it would become onr own property. We hnYe pai<l for ~ome year~, nnd they seem to think they have kept their bargain, but I <lo not think they have.

617. To lrfr. Stylcs.-The interest on my seheme would be, roughly, ahont £100 a year, and the increased cost of pmnping would be J'or six mouths in the year. There are two engine-drivers required, and that pump would pump 10,000,000 gallons of water in about three month:~' time, and I think that would come to abont £130 extra for pmnping. I do not think it. would come to £.)00 altogether, for I think £170 is too m11ch to put down for prest>nt cost of pnmping. SuppoHing in place of the pumping scheme that the pump were taken away, and the whole I 7 miles of 6-in. mal 6-in. pipe was taken up alHl sold, and we had a lO-in. pipe laid ut £1,000 a mile, that 10-in. pipe would not !lcliver four times what the 5-in. pipe would. I know it cannot do it. I say that if you can take the whoie of the water brought by gravitation with a G-in. pipe through an inch and a half hole, my contention is that a 3-iu. hole would do the :;amo with t,hc water hrou~ht by gravitation thmugh a 10-in. pipe. The n•ason of the 5-iu. pipe is thnr il;ere i~ an inYort, from ca~tlemaine into the :Mnckleford Gully, and it rise:> again, and the pipes oroke so coHtinnally that they had to put in a larger pipe to meet the pros~nrc. That pipe has been there ever since I remember, some 35 year,;;, They ha1·o cleaned it out lately; it i:J the full 5 inches now, and yet it will only deliver what an inch awl a half pipe would <lcliver.

618. To ilh·. TY/tite.-It i~ part of l\ilr. Stnart :MtuTay's scheme whieh I propose. I have just heard that there are two hon~cs on the proposed area of the new reservoir, but they are not in any way eonneeted with where the embankment would he made.

Tke witness withdrew.

Adjourned.

THURSDAY, 25TH MAY, 1899.

j}fembers p1·esent :

:8fR. CAMERON, in. The Hon. J. H. Abbott, :u.L C., The Hon. D. Melville, 1\LL.C., The Hon. E. Morey.

the Chair;

Mr. Crayen, Mr. A. Han·is, Mr. Styles, Mr. White.

,John Paul Caroliu, s wom and examined.

619. Ry the Chainnan.-What evidence do you desire to give to the Committee ?-Favorable to the construction of the reservoir, and the eonseryation of the waters of the Coli ban.

620. HaYe you not snflieient w11ter now ?-Not at the partieular time it is reqnil·ed in the summer; the eritieul time is the time that the water is deficient.

621. Do you knO\Y the qnantHy o£ water you are getting now?-No, I have no knowledge of that. 622. Do you know how much more water is required ?-Spo~kin~ of Bendigo and to the north,

I ;.honld think th('y would do better with donhlo the quantity. 6 3. What distriers north of Hmhligo do you refer to'?-Raywood, Huntly, and in tltat direction

whl're the ehannels arn going. The difficulty I have had myself has been when the water has to be put upon the vineyard or orchard at critical times; then every one wants it., antl the water i8 not there; you cannot gd it in tl1e quanti1ies you require.

624. '\VIwt b your occupation ?-I have a largo orebanl and vineyard in the eity of Bendigo, which wn" praeticn ll.v taken np ont of waste lands and rcelaimed for the purposes of Leing irrigated.

6:!.'). Were you promised sufficient water for irrigation ?-No, I hmluo promise; I took the fact that the progress of the times woHld increase the volume of water as things developed.

53 Johu p, Carolin. 21ith 1\l")'' 1899 •.

626. i\,.ould the water required for Hnntly aml those other places he for mtnmg or irrigation?­Irrigation. I am speaking wholly of irrigation now. 1 am oppo;:ed entirely to the charge for mining water l1eiug so mnch less than it i~ for agrieultuml pm poses. I do not think it is fair.

6:27. How long have you heen in Benrligo ?-Since 18:12. 628. \Yere you one of those who were agitating for n supply of water for mining nllll rlomestic

purposes above Bendigo allll Castlemaine?-Xo, I took no part in that. 6:29. '.l'hc mining eommuuily think the ngritulttlrist.-; are interloper>', who are robbing them of their

water ?-Ye8, bnt they will be there wlwu the othr·rs h~vc gone. Agric1tltmc• will live ]Je}'Ollll miuiug, and, beyond all question, tl1e ,-;eltlemcut of people iu ngricnltnral pur,nits is far better for the couu1.ry tha11 nn inrlmtry which tends to educate to a migratory habit, going from oue rliggiug,; lo another.

630. You are not yourself interested in mining ?-Kot beyond the faet that I look upon miniug awl agriculture a~ the rnain~tays of the colony. I think, speaking of ono pruticular feature in Bencligo, the Govemrncnt arc now spending ~mnething like £10,0CO in openi11g up the olrl Bemligo Creek; that ha~ been brought about by sluicing and hydraulic miniug, and I think that that shoultl not be increased except there was evidcnC'e of a character which would wanant the cxpondittll'lc in n 111i11in!!· tlirect.ion. \Vater ~hould not be allowed to go upon the land. to de~troy "·hat would hecollle a ,·alnable aren for production in fruit-growing. 1 have tnkPn up about .iO acres of an olrl mining nrca in Belllligo. For 25 years it lay dormant without Leiug able to onstain even a Cl1inaman. Ten year>' ago I took that lanclnp allll reclaimed it for tlw pmposo of utilizing the wastes of the city, kuowing what could he clone hy irrigation. There are now pot:sibly .'iO men f•mploye'l on that s:cme lnntl coustantiy, anrl the number will a! \\·ay~ be increasing as they get knowledge of how to produce the greatest amount of prorluce from the smallest area, that is, by the knowledge ofintensc cnltnro.

6:3 J. How many of the ;)0 acres are nmlor trees ?--All of it; previons to that it lay W!lste for 2;)

years. 632. Do you grow anything else between the rows of trees?-Y cs, if I were there myself I would;

I am a merchant, aurl have to vi:;it all the colonies, so tlmt Ill,\' time is very little given to that. 1 imported some men from Spain, who, I belicwe, ha ye a thorough practical knowledge of protlnetion by the assistance of irrigation; some of those meu remain there nO\Y and have done well. Tile year before l!tst one of them sold £7.'i0 worth of produce ofi 9 ae1 es of land.

G33. By the Hon . .!. Jl. Abhott.-\\'lmt kind of protlnec ?-Tomatoes, onions, and cabbages. 6:H. By the Clwi?·man.---Yon let the !awl to other peoplc?-Yes, on the share system. I planted

the whole of it myself, and left it in order, :.;o that I thought I would he easily nble to let it to people who wanted it.

6:35. Do you get goorl fruit oft' that lanrl ?-1 get the finest grapes in the colony; Lut what yon take from the land you mnst put Lack >Jgain.

6:56. By the Hon . .!. fl. Abbott.-Is there any laml within the area of the Coliban snpply that would be likely to be sueeessJ'ul at raspberry growing?-- Yes, all the iaiHl on the oonthcm alHl westem slopes. Of eomsc, I mean fairly gooil land, and if it is not good it has to be made good by nU\Illli'CS. or all the lnnr1 which can he irrigatecl from the Coliban st·heme by gravitation, if a ~ltfficicnt supply of water eau he as~nred to fruit-grower,;, thore is not an acre of it that t·a~J Lo plon~hed to a depth of 7 or 8 inches Lnt what should ri~c iu ntitiC at least £2 an acre. I need o1lly point to Harcourt and tlw~e places, anrl mention 1.hnt tlteir fmit bring,.; the highest priee in the markers of the world; that !fln'l, if yon ean get water tlpou it, has increaser] in ynltw f:Z per aerc.

G37. By the Clwirman.-"\Yhcn yon describe t.hc clistrict you do not menu to pick tmt 10 acre~ here nncl there ?-No.

638. iVhat do yon mean by Hareonrt. ?-1 only rnentiouetlliarconrt \)()cause there i.s a large export of fruit from that particular place, anrl those people utilize tlw water.

G:lD. Ho11· manY acres are under l'rnit in tlw YallcY of Barker'~ Creek about Harcourt ?-I coulclnot Sfl)'; but every year tl~c area is increasing as people get i:nowledgc of their ncighboms' sncecss.

640. Ry the Hon . .T. If. Abbott.-Arc they getting sntlicieut water for their requirements?­I cannot sn}'; they cannot get the water high enough, but wherever th1·y can get the water on the Klopes it is right.

6"H. By the Chai'rman.-1-Icnv long haYc they harl the orchard~ at Ilarcc.mt ?-The Jlrst orchard wns starter! many rears ago; it was the old ~hecp-~tatiou at :Mount Alcxanrler.

6±2. By Mr. Styles.-What do you pay for water for irrigation ?-1 think it is £8 6s. Sri. per million !.!:allon~.

G43 B.'! tlte Hon. E ... MoTe.1J.-Is that in open channels ?--Yes. The mine!' gets it at £1 and £2, and he rlcstroys the very po~sibility of agriculture.

6·±4. By 1lh. Styles.- Do you mean a minrr who is oluit:ing ?-Y cs; I mean a man who takes a\Yay the surface and leaycs uotJ,ing Lnt. the bare rock, and. sluices it all into the creek, while the Govcm-. meut have snuseqnently to take that earth up out of the creek allli pnt it on the ~icle anrl pny for it.

6±.3. Tltry get this water for next to nothing, aud do a lot ut' iujnry to the district?-Yes, that is trne.

646. And after the sluicers wash the stuH into the creek the State has to p[ly for removing it?-Yes.

()4/. Eigbt pounds woultl not go very far towards removing the sludge from the creek that had been washed into it by that £!; worth of water ?-No; the £8 is paid by the agriculturist-the miner pays only £1 or £2.

6±8. vYonld you be willing to pay any more for the supply of water if there were an ample supply nil the year round?_ Yes, they eoulrl well afford to pay, provi<ling the person using the water is sufiicicnt ly intelligent to use it. I cont:irler they could pay £10 a million gallon~. When water i~ put npon the lantl without propH .knowlerlge it is allo1n"l to mn to waste, lmL witlt a proper knowledge of irrigation a person does uot. wa~te his water-none of his watt·r goes off his land, whether it b flat or nmlulating ; l~n t that. require,; special knowledge, w!Jit·h, nnfortuuntely for the colony, we hn\·c not got.

649. Would it uot al.,o require that the land ~houlcl be of a speci:d contour?-X(J.-[The witness errplaiued the method. J

(),'50. Tbat is assuming tl1e lmul i~< favornhle?--Alllancl is fayorablc if the manundrrstautls irrigation.

,John P. 25th May, 54

661. How would he get across a valley?-He could not get across a creek-he can go right rounu a mountain, backwar(ls ami forwards.

652. You would be quite willing to pay 26 per cent. more than yon arc paying now ?-Yes. 653. \Ylmt ought the sluicers to pay-Eomctimes they pay nothing, sometimes a f:.trthing, and

sometimes a halfpenny per thousanu-you say they do more harm to the country th1u1 they do good, by washing large quantitie3 0f silt into the creek which lmYe to be taken ont 11gain at tho expense of the taxpayer ?-Yes.

65<1. What Jistinction shoulu be ma,le ?-I think they shonlu all p:~y alike. 6.55. If you get 1 he water out of pipes, Jo you pay more eonsiderably ; it is worth more. 656. As a whole, the Coliban scheme loses a large sum of money every year, and \VC have to make

np the deficit? -That i5 true, bnt you would do very hauly without us. 657. ·without whom ?-The proJncers, who are endenvom·ing to produce crops to be exported to

I~ondon to increase our exportations. 658. Then we htwe to help pay for producing theit crops I thiuk we help one another. 6.'59. You get your water there for 2.1. a thousand gallon~, and a man in the metropolis, say, at

Doneastet, has to pr1y towanls that loss ?-Yes, but he gets the profit. 660. In order to encourage the production of frnit ?-Yes, he 1he profit of our business-we

make a profit out of every man who bnys anything of us in 1Ielbourne. 661. That being so, ought you not to pay all the expense connected with that water supply without

asking the man nt Templestowe or Doncaster to contribnte ?-If that was applieu all round it might be fair.

662. 'Vhat doos the mall at Bendigo getting the water at 211. pay towards a man living at Templestowe or Doneastor ?-I have not sttldied the question.

663. Tnke an ore!HJ.rd 10 miles out of Melbourne and an orchard at Bemiigo-the Melbourne man has to help tbe mau at Bemligo; how doe,; the man at Bendigo help the Melbourr,e man ?-Yen have not provided the man here with wnter channels.

664. He is not provided for at all-he has to do it out of his own he takes the Yan Yean he has to pay Is. per thousand, and then has to compete with a mau who gets the water at a price that does not pay the State-is not thnt nnfair?-I am not able to answer that question as you put it; it seems to me that if the country is to he Jeveloped in the direction of scientific cnltivation we mnst havo intense cnltnre.

665. 'Ve must nll pay towards the :Maflh beet culture ?-That is a great misfortune, bnt possibly it "'ill not be repeated; but intense cultnre settles the people on the land, and instead of sending men away to different pnrts of the colony to do work that machiuery will do at one sixth of the cost, they wonld be fnr better if they had edn(·ation anJ water---with this dimate and the la!Hl we have and the Coliban water we want nothing more than practical education-if a man has practical know ledge of laud a nu of w::J.ter he will he able to liYe. When I went down an<l ~aw Leongatha, I was sure thnt it \\'as going to be a failure unless certain lines were insisted upon, bnt if it were intelligently manage([ it would be a great success.

666. By the Hon. J. Jl. Abbott.- You are nware that the mining iutcrest is very huge on Bendigo? we could not t1o without mining. o67. By 1lf1·. C1·at·en.-That mining is not sluicing ?-No. 668. By the Hon. J. II. Abbott.-Are you not in favom of opening up the mining districts round

Bendigo ?-Yes. 669. Are you not awnre that the Malmsbury water is already carried 80 miles into the interior?­

Yes, and I 11.111 in f;wonr of it. 670. Do yon not think it wou!J be a great aurantagc to the whole of the mining if the agriculturist

awl orcharrlist and the mines coulu have a snfiieiency cf water?-Y cs, undoubtedly. G7I. Then though it may not pay the interest, Joos it not do great good practically ?-·It seems to

mo it is the only 'oltJt,io;I of the difficulty. 672. At present tho water is helping to tleYelop a great many mines ?-No doubt. The only thing

that 1 object to is that water is given to men to go upon a flat at the rate of £1 a million gallons to go ti1ere nuc.l not earn a Jiving ; 1 hey never made more than 48., .jg,, and 6s. a week, and s• ill they were destroyiug the bnd I shoul(l think at the rate of about £1 per week. All the other methods of mining I am entirely in fh vonr of, and that the Coliban scheme be carried out to serve them.

673. BytheHon.lJ.J.1fel-I;ille.-Yon1hink it is onlyourownfollythat thewaterinthose reser­voirs c.loes nol pay ?~Perhaps not ,;o much unr own folly ns our want of knowleuge.

674. Yon think we need not. fear the expemlitnre; all the expenditure could be made lucrative? -It eonld he made and ~hould be matle lucmtivc. I think it will eventually pay the State handsomely.

676. By the Chairman.-It has taken a long time ?-It has taken a long time to educate some of us. f>76. By the Hon. D. Melville.-I gather as to all thCJ money 1hat we are 10 lay ont we ncell to be

under no misapprehension abont, bnt that it will return if we take propet• charge of it ?-Yes. 67i. By J.lf.r. St;!fln;.-Do you think other orchanlists would be inclined to pay a li~tle more to

make the scheme a success ?-I am only speakillg for myself. 678. What do you thiuk ?-I do not know; possibly they wouiJ grumble, but they eonlc.l not tlo

without the water. This man tlwt I brought out from Spain came to me without a shilling, he ha1l nothing, and he now takes a trip regularly to .France. He can ationl to pay for the water, nnc.l so cHn everybody else, if they work in the same way. lie is not. afrflitl of his money. lf you oft(Jred l1im 640 acres without water he woulu not take it if yon gave it to him for £1 a year, hut if you him I 0 acres with waler he will ghre a good sum for it.

679. By the Chainnan.-Did you eYer try to supply your3elf with water ?-I have !nul !loll idell. in my hear!. I intended to pnt np nn engine or use the Uolihan walcr as the power to Jo things about the placo, nnd after il wns turned otf to use it for irrigation-that is the l!ipe \later.

680. By the Hon. J. H. Abbott.-lf there were a larger supply of water, wonld it be nvailcd of by many people in the neighbonrhoo,l ?-Yes, I am certain nf it. I noticed at Elpllinstone 1hey are beginuing to plttHt some orch;wtls which can be irrigated from the sehemo. A man looking at that land would say it was valueless for all purposes, hut I think it will turn out yery sncceO'sl'ul, because they will be able to utilize the water from tile mce.

55 ,John P. Cttrolin, 25th }fay, 1899.

681. In view of the fact tltnt the present Colihan water rese1·voir does not pay interest, would it be advisable to increase the storage of water so as t(l make it possible for people to get n, full supply of water, and so be in a position to pny more for it ?-Yes. At the time the Coli ban scheme was bnilt up. things were very diil'erent, and I take it that t.he economy which cnn he u<eu in the storage of "·ater now rs much greater, and it will largely tend to make both schemes pay, whereas one will not }lay by itself. -

682. By the Clwinnan.-Pcople arc able to produce a great deal more uow than they were when the Coliban was first established ?-No dcHibt they leurn every day. .

683. How is it they ask to get the water for less money than they did then ?-They will always ask for anything they think they can get.

684. You yonr~elf are vvilliHg to pay rnore ? -Ye~, heean~e I know the men I have referTcd to will get more money out of it.

685. By the lion . ./. If. AUmtt.-Do yon think the people generally ·wouhl be willing to pay more? -Yes, rather than be without water at t.he critical time,

686. By 1fh. St.!Jles.--Do you think if l'al'liauwnt ~pent £100,000 on this work there wouhl Le interest on the money ?-I think it would be so vood that if the whole thing beiOllf!;Cil to mvself 1 \\"onhl do it-J wonlclHot e'xpect that the returns for ~he first three or four ye~rs ""cmld pay, but cvcutmdly it must pay.

G87. "\Vmdd there be any difficulty in forming a trnst to take over the whole of tho,w \York,; '?---J do not think so. If you can get people with the intelligence and the thought of the responsibility that attaehes to these thiiigs J think it coul(l he worked with great profit. I uo not know much about trust,;.

688. By 1~b·. White.-If they get this extra ~<npply of water, do yon think the people will agitate to have a reduction in the price, it heino· undu Govemment control?- \'erv likelv.

G89. And Yery likely tlu:y will ~ueceed, us they have done in the l~~LstJ--':-Y es, as so many succeed in this JaLom agitation; I have no doul>t they would combine and do the same thing.

690. As the Malmshury Resen-oir snpplies a very large Hrea, with interests that are not i(lentic:d, if the GoYenunent supplies the several piHccs with water at. a gin:n mt(; from the main, would it be a fair thing to ask the municipalities to tako charge of that water at n reasonable rnto and manage their own aiTairs ?-I see no reason why they shonld not do it.

691. You think if it ~ere t~n<ler loeal control in that way the same presdme could not be brought upon a municipality 11s upon the Government ?-They would l~ave to pny for it; it would work out its own cure.

692. By tl1e Hon. J. JI. Al,bott.-\Vere the munieipali1ies asked to take this matter np ?-They were.

693. Why did they not n.vail themselve~ of the offer of the Government ?-Because the price asked was out of the question.

694. They might have done so if it had been :1 fair price?-Yes; I do not remember tbc priee. 695. By il.fr. Craren.-Snppose this view were taken, that the Government retained the head-works

and the main arteries, but thnt Castlemaine, JYinldon, and Bendigo should have their own trusts, would each mnnioipnlity tnke charge of its water after it was deliverctl out of the ohmntel~ ?-They should be willing to, or they do uot deserTc the water.

The witness 1nithdrew.

Adjowrned.

THURSDAY, 1sT JUXE, 1899.

Jllembers present:

~fR. CnmRoN, in the Chair;

The Hou. J. H. Abbott, .M.L.C., The Hon. D. 1\felville, :M.L.C., The Hon. E. Morey, M.L.C.

Mr. Craven, l1r. A. Harris, :Mr. Styles, Mr. White .

• John Stewart Dethridge, sworn and examined.

696. By the. CAai1'1nan.-Wl1at are you ?-Inspcetor in charge of the Coiihan works--the whole Coli ban system. I have been in charge for about six yettrs. I was in the Public Works Department before that_, doing country work. I have the muuieipal surveyor's and tile watet· supply engineer's eertifieates, but I am not an engineer in the Department. l traYelled with your Committee during their inspection of all the channels and branches, nnd have been present when witncsBes gave evidence at Castlemaine, :Maldon, Bell(ligo, and Englehawk.

697. Did yon keep any reeonl of the complaints they matle about the water supply ?-Yes. I took rough notes. I remember that seyeml said that they could not get a supply during cert:tin seasons.

698. How far were they cnrrect? -[Looking at JirintNl eo pp of' t!te evidence J -Taking Uendigo fit·st, I sec that the \dtness, Mr. Wilson, mentioned only general complaints. Then JHr. Della.r nu<lc a complnint that when water was required from the 1\Ia.rong channel for irrigfLtion it was not available. The explanation of tlmt is that it is pos~ible it was not ayailablc immctliat.ely 1dwu ordcre,J, but it was not dnc to any shortnge at i\lalmsbnry, it 1Ytl8 due to local trouble-tlHl p:trt~· not giYing noli<:e in time that he woul,l rcqnirc it. We require a few days' no tic(~.

699. Then in the cYent of a mine r0cptiring it, how mauv day~ would i> take ?--l do not know of any mine that \\cc could not supply at two dnyg' tiotiee. I an; sp~aking of a new mine eoming on How ·withiu reach of our works. Any of the mines that work c:HJr<lanily eonld get it nt· ono (l:ty';; notice.

700. Wlty not at a few homs' notice ?-The diflieulty of commtuticating with the channel keeper. The water is practically always in tbe clmnnels for all the imporlant mining supplies.

J. s. Dethridge, 1st June, 1899. 56

701. When not snpplying the mines where does it go ?-On the system, we have a number of minor reservoirs into which we run the surplus, anJ we con,;;erve it in those. As to those irrigation people at l\larong, who made that, complaint, it is a small storage and only smHll quantities required at a time, so we require notice.

i02. Have yon calcnlated the quantity of waste by evaporation or seepage from the whole of the channels?-Yes. The figure~ given in the Department by Mr. Stuart :Munav are bascJ on C<llcnlations o!' mine by ptnging~ taken ou the various channels. T cannot separate the loss hy evapm·ation from that soakage, lmt assuming that our measurements to con~Hmcrs are correct, aiHl knowing what quantity is sent out from ::\falmsbury, wo have to account for the balance l>y assuming that it is lost hy ~oakage and evaporation.

703. Can you account for every drop of water by either meter or measurcment-ic; there not some let down without any measurement.?~-Yon mean some actually run to waste-we cannot account for every drop, but for any quanrity t llnt is material.

704. You calculate the loss by the difference between the intake into the channels and that going through the on t lets?-Yes.

705. Ry lrl:r. ~_'i.,'t.IJles.-A witness said that it look him 27 hours to fill a boiler, ean"e•l, aH he alleged, by the iusuHicient quantity of water ?-I remember that cnse. At that particular point he would be correct in saying that the supply was insutlicient, but it does not follow that there was any insufficiency nt the head work~. That mine is ~itnated on a height ancl the service-pipe is only a small one; the sonico-pipe does not Lelong to om Department.

706. Then it would not be the fault of the Department ?-Ko. 707. Was the service-pipe to blame ?-Ye", in that case. 708, With a larger service-pipe the Department could have filled the boiler in a reasonable time?­

I would not say lhltt ; our pipes may have hceu at fault in some measure at that point. .Many of the complaints as to tho~e mines are well grounded, hut they are due to local causes-the local reticulation is not sufficient to get the supply through in the hot weather.

709. In one year there wa~ a shortage at the Frederick the Great mine at Sebastian ?-I know the whole facts there. ln the particular mine in question the boilers are situated about 10 feet below the snwll pipe-head hn~in that supplies the Sebastian reticulation and, also, owing tf' the water having to flow for a very long distance in an open ehannel, there is a greater amount of settlement at Sebastian than el8cwherc, and the pipes silto<l up, and there i~ a difficulty in supplying them within a reasonable time. It is a special case.

710. Can you conceive of any posBihlo use that a pressure of water could he put to in tlwse di::;tricts, utilizing the head of water between the Coiiban and Bendigo-thero is a fall of about 400 feet ?-Thoro is practically no 'lnty of utilizing that pressure. It woulJ be po~~ible, perhaps, to erect machinery of limited power at one or two points on the channel; bnt for nuything really big it is practically out of the question.

711. Cunld they do sluieing without the aid of steam maehinery, and having to use a force pump? -No, there is no possibility of that.

712. You know the scheme we have under diseussion, antl the ~ites for the proposed reservoir?­I know the site of the one you are inquiring into.

713. Has there ever been an alternative scheme for a much larger rescn·oir suggested by some one in your Department ?-1 have heard of a much larger one J}(,ing cousitlered on t.he site of the present proposal.

71<1. Do yon know why the larger one was not brought before the Committee ?-Officially I ha\"C hac! nothing to do with it.

715. Y on supplied the figures as to the waste ?-Y os. 716. I find that your figures amouut to ·14 per cent. ; does that show the whole waste ?-There is

a greater loss in this way, that a portion of the (flJantity set down here-[pointing to Sub-App(mdi:x: If. of 1llemorandum b,1J Chi~f' En,qineer ]-as evaporation from local basins, charitable supplies, and so on, represents the waste from rcticulatious.

717. Then that slwuhl be added on tu the 44 per cent. ?-Yes ; yon coul<l take that-[r~ferring to items 500,000,000 and 1,757,200,000 in Sub-Appendix JI.]-as representing the loss from all tllc channels of the system. That other item, evaporation fi·om loeal basins, works, snppl ies, and so on, 613,300,000 gallons, includes the waste from those local basins and from the reticulation.

718. \Yould it be fair to sav that half the watt•r that leaves the Coliban-that is, first collected and stored there-is wasted ?-I hardly think it would be a fair thing to say it is wasted ; it would be fair to say money i~ not reecivetl from it, l>nt in nll water sy~t<\ll1S a very large proportion must be lost in that w-ay.

719. Adding that 513,000,000 which yon have giveu to the 44 per cent. which you admit, won!(! that not bring it up to about half?-Yes, it wouhl hring it up to about half loss, bnt if you will nllow me to explain-we are ju the habit of speaking of those losses as distinct from waste, waste being water which i~ actually run away because we have no use for it at the time; we draw a dist[netion between inevitnhle losses and waste.

720. By t!te Clwirman.--As to the waste, yon do not include the '1\'atcr that is lot <lown to serve the people in the Campnspe Valley ?-No; that comes under the hea<ling of ;,nmlry cornpcusations. I understand the point, and it would be correct to say that about half of the output is lost in one way or another.

721. By 1lb·. Styles.-Can you suggest any method of preventing sueh a huge loss as tlmt ?-No, there is no practicable way. I mean at a practicable cost there is no way of preventing it.

722. You would have sufficient water without spen<ling another ehilling if the water went through pipes ?-That i."l so.

723. As to the )Jaldon water supply, how far is the offtake from Maldon ?-W miles 110 chains About half the main is 6 inches ami the othet· half 5 inches.

724. Suppose they had two 5-in. pipes wonlrl that sttpply them sufficiently without pumping No, it would not be snffieien t.

725. Then it wonltl not do to lay a 1 0-in. pipe half the way, and take np the i5 and 6 in. pipes anJ put them in a trench for the other milcs-woulrl not that give tbem more than <louhlc what they are

57 J, S. Dethrldge, 1at June, 1899.

getting now ?-Not more than uonhlc whnt they arc getting with the pumps; spanking roughly, it would he only a very little improvi'mcnt on the prcso!Jt methoJ with the assistance of the pump. It wonld certainly gin· more than clouhlo wlmt we woulll gd the present direct liue without the pumping.

72G. If y<)ll luul those pipe;; wnul<l you need pumping ~tntiou ?__:As~uming it gave only double, it would q[!l he Pt>t·e,::'nry lJecause the pump gives ns more than tlonble. Tl!o direct. pipe ha;; snch a very ~mall fall, only about 27 l'cd in thni whole length, that cre11 doubling the present pipe line to that high level would not· :H much as t.hc plllnp clocs.

727. Whnt ~izml pipe ,,·on),] yo11 require fnr the other 8~ miles if you had a 1 0-in. ono-half the wny to gin· sufficient snpply without dw pnmping ?-To pt'lwide for aH pos~iblc requirement., I should say a 10-ill. pipe shonl<l be laid all the way thmngh-thore wottltl be no gn.in in making a bt·enk in the SiZC'E.

i28. What would it cost to put n. 10-in. pipe all through ?-It ha,- hoen estimated by thl' Chief Euginoor at £16,000, that is allowiug for the snlv of the old pipe~ when taken up.

729. £1G,OOO at :l~ per cent., £.i60-that \YOtd,J be thl• interest on a good and fnffidcnt water Fnpply for years to eomo ?--Yes.

i:lO. i'Vhat arc the working t'XlH'tU'!Cti now ,,.ben they have only an indifferent ;mpply ?-The working expenses nt prt•sent all t.ultl would come to about £680, and that nmonnt of sndng by relaying tlt;, new main would he about £:ISO in roun<l mmtllur.,;.

731. How mnclt pt'r anuum is the pnmpin;r ?-,£:)8\l with iutere~t on the pump, and there may he :<omo repairs al;;o; .£400 woitld eover tlw wlwl•~ of it.

7:12. \rlwt other elwrgcs are there ?-The mnintcnruJcC at the t.owuship-tumcocks, wage~, and t<o on-would amolln& to auother J :lOO. That wonld l'i,main tlJc· ,;a.mc with a gr:tvitation ,,chemc-only the pmnpiug expcu~c ,,·onhl be ,;avcd.

73;). Then the additional ycarl,1' expcnditmc woultl be only J~ l GO to haYc a good gnwitation scheme? -YeR.

7:H. Dot:s the present scheme give an ample supply at all times ?-No. 7:).5. Then it i,; not RS good as tl 10-iu. pipe woultl give ?-No. 7:3G. Does the want of water interfere with any of their business, mining or other ?-It has done so

CI'Oll ,;iltl'C the pump ha~ been at work. In oue )·car it interferctl to a ~mall extent. 7:37. Coultl that .£Hi0 be made np by tilcir paying ,;omething ;ulditional up tlwrc ?-I clu not think so. 7:)8. \','lmt do they pay per 1mit of popuhtion at. :\laldonn0\1. ?-The popn!Mion in ronrHl nmnbet'~

b abont 2,{)00, and the revetl\lC about £I ,000, PO at that rate it eomes to nhont 8~. ]Wr head, i:l9. Bnt you hal'e to take oii £·WO for the pump ?-That is the gross revenue; the net rcl'emte

woultl he nbont £:300; but I wnul<l prefer such returus to come from the Department. 740. li,1; the Chainnan.-Wonhl a lO·in. main if laill to :Ylaldon supply the higher reservoiro in

J\hldon ?-It wc,nld for ~evcral yc:<r~ to (·onw, hut as 'i\Jahlon progrcs,;cd it wonlu be ucccs~ary probably to ercd a pumping plant at the lower l'C'>'ervoir iu onkr tu ;;npply the l1ip;lwr one. For the present I think a l 0-in. main would put sn1licieut wah·r into tile lti,!.!'lttr re~en·oir to ,ntpply tl1e town by gmvitation.

741. B!! Jlt'. Craven.-Do yon know tlw ,;chenw that ::\Ir. (}rey proposed of lmiltling another re;:('!'Yoir-wonlrl that answer all requircment8 if earriccl out ?-Xo, 1 think not. The local rainfall dming three dt·y year~, ,;twlt a.s we recently had, is too precarious-it could not be relied on.

7-1:!. I~ uot ili.> propose<l re3en·oil' more a storage fron1 the pipes ?-Ye~, he proposed to pump all tlte vcar l'<JUilll-tltat wo11ld mean an atldc-d cost. to maintenance of ahollt £:320. alld for that rea~on alone I ihlitL it would Hot ben good sehemC'. ,

7"13. \Yl:at would you suggest !-I think it will ultimately come too. 10-in. pipe :tll the way. 7H. By J/r. Styles. "-As to that. larger scheme of storage, why was not that plaecll before the

Committee ?-Officially I know nothing abont it. 745. Yon were not consulted ?-Ko. 746. Ey tl,~ Hon. D. Jfeln:Ue.-Do you get all the water at present from the entire area into the

:!\blmslmry Resencoir f believe so, with the exception of a small supply to Kyneton, whieh i~ supplied from tltc catchment area.

747. Canyon tclt ns from the p!tpet'S tlw total <pmntity that goe~ over the hy-wash-the aYemgc for nine years ?-I might explain that thc,;e are not my returns ; they ariJ compiled in t.ltc head office, a;ld I ''ould simply give you the same figures.

748, Whnt is the total quantit.y that l'llll:l ovet' the hy·l\'ttsh after yon have deducted the compensation water that mnst go down the Coliban ?-I en.n gi1·c nothing in a•ldition to those figmes; they arc not gi \'en hy me. I know uothing about H, because those rot. urns arc simply forwarded to the head office ami compiled there.

749. Will tl.1e surpln,; going down the hy-wash yearly be nll you will have for the new re~en·oir?­That is what I wottl(l r~Oiwlmle from those lignre~, which arc uot mine, that that is all available for the new re~en·oi r.

7.)0. What are the figures mentioned in question 88 ?-It comes to 48,591 millions of gallons for the nine years·-that avemge is per mmnm 5,:190 millions of gallons. These figures represent the quautity that woalt! luwe nm to waste, dming the years referrctl to, i.f the additional re~ervoir had been constructed and the output. increased by 50 per cent.., and not the (jl!antity that actually did rnn to waste.

751-2. How much more water do rc<Ftirc a.~ urgent than yon have to-day for those districts(-I cnnnot say at present that we should any more-at prc~cnt we are supplying nll demands.

7fl3. Take tho whole year, how much more water could you put to use in those di~tricts that \'OH

manage ?-No more juRt at present., beca11sc we supply all demands. ~ 75L \Vo11ld yon want more three months hence ?-I conld not say what might happen in the uext

fire vear.~. ·' 7 55. By the Clwinnan.- \Y ere you at ~tny tirnc during the past year short of water?-In the years

1896-7-8 we were short of water-we l1ad to cmtail some supplies. /;iG. B!J the Hon. D. Jfdville.-How much wonld yon have required in those years to snppiy all

that people wante<l ?-,\bout. another ;iOO,OOO,OOO in e~u·h year-that i:; a comparatively small quantitY. I may explaiu tlmt if lYe hat! not cnrtniled the i!luidng impplies Ub we Jid, there would have Leen th~t mueh more wf!.tcr issued thnn we ~upplied.

J. S. Dethridge, 1st June, 1800. 58

757. The total quantity that you could possibly me would be 500,000,000 gallons extra ?-Iu those years.

7.'i8. Those were exceptional vcars ?-Yes. 759. Then what you want pe; annum is 500,000,000 gfdlons ?-I am not prepared to say that in

ordinary years. 760. To nttain that it is proposed to spend .£100,000 ?--I believe that is the propoml. 761. How do you propose for that i500,000,000 gallons to dil·ide the interest on the £100,000-

who is to pay for it ?-The only way by which the increased mvenne eould be raised would be l'Y n direct increase of the mtes.

762. Which of them conltl bear it best, the slniccrs, the big <lividend-Imying mines, or the house­holders ?-J\:Iy own opinion is that the large mines conhl hest afford to pay for the increased expenditure.

763. ls there any reason why J\1aldon should pay 6d. and Beud i~o only 4tl. ?-Y os; from the natmal situation of .Ma!tlon it is a more expensh·e matter to get water there than to the other parts of the ~ystem -tl1at is a justification that can be given.

i64-. Could you not cram a little more water into the J\falmsbury Resel"\'oir to save that £100,000? -To a certain extent it would be hazardous.

7615. Could you not let a little more into the Crusoe to make up that ;300,000,000 ?-Before st<nting the summer season we filled the local reservoir« up to their full cap'lcity at present.

766. \-Vould not the Malmsbnry Reservoir carry 500,000,000 extm ?-The new rescrYoir is to meet all future requirements, and to provide a resenc against any probable shortage in dry years I merely give that 500,000,000 as what we would have required in those three yenrs.

767. Could not the Mnlmsbury Beservoir hold 1,000,000,000 gallons extra with slightalterations'?-­One engineering authority has given the opinion that it would not be safe to increase the Btomgc.

763. What is the state of the embankment at prescut-,.how much more conk! you put in 110\\' ?-­The actual height of the wttter is 45 feet 7 inches whe11 full; at ordinarv time~ it i~ 8 feet from the crest to the sill; at flood-time it might rise to nuything. At peesent the water: sta.rds at 27 feet in the reservoir, and we could fill it up to 4i feet; but, of cour;:e, all that is reckoned on to have it in the season.

769. If the rain till ell it np now, how much wonltl it he?~ 1V c have n.t present room for 2,600,000,000 gallons more in the reservoir.

770. By the Chainnan.-Yon say that the new resenoir is for futme reqniremeuls, and that up to the present there has been enough water ?-That is what I understand.

771. Have we not. heard complaiuts for four or lhe years-deputations waiting on the Minister, asking fo!' water for the present generation, not for futuro requirements?- Ye;;.

7i2. Iu that case it is necessary to conserve rcore water at the reservoir ?-No; I hold not. I hohl that nine-tenths of those complaints were due to local t.ronble, quite independent of the water stored at Malmsbury.

773. Then how· is it that it is proposed to duplicate the main and make the channel larger from Mnlmsbury to Expedition Pass ?~That would seem to be consistc11t with the idea that a reservoir is needed for fnture requirements.

774. Have you studied the resources of any othet· proposed reservoit· ?-Yes. 77 5. Yonr contention is that there is no new reservoir required at all ?-Certainly not my con·

tention; that conelusion may, perhaps, be drawn from my evidence. 776. Will the vresent reservoir hold sufficient water to supply all the demands upon it?-Y c~,

throughout a normal year it will. 777. And give them a sufficient supply ?-Yes, all existing demands. 778. Then it is superfluous to build another reservoir ?-No, I will not say thnt. The demand is

growing, and water supply systems must be construete.t in view of future reqniremeuts. 779. Was there any greater scarcity six yenrs ago ?-No; this year th.ere has been no scarcity at

all. The scarcity was due principally to the exceptional nature of the three dry years, and also in some measure to an increased demand. The demand is still as great, or greater, than it has e,·er been ; but the year beiug a normal one, with the rainfall np to the average, there has been no scarcity.

7~0. How is it the rc~ervoir is so low ?-It is not low this varticnlar year, it is abont np to the average height for this time of year. May and .Tune are the months when of late years it has been lowest. We must have all the additional water before the end of Septembm·~--i t usually starts to fill up in June.

781. Do you require to raise the embankment or have a new reservoir in order to give sufficient, water ?-No, not for normal years. It was not snfficient for the exceptional three tlry years, 1896, 1897, and 1898. \-Ve had to curtail sluicing; that shows that we had net sufficient water for all demanth.

782. From lst June, 1898, to lst June this year, have you had a snt!icient supply of water?-­Sufficient in iYialmsbnry to supply cvm·y demand.

783. Then all the complaints are more from their fcn.r of a tlronght coming?-Yes, and also dnc to the local pipe troubles causing complaints in certain locnlities.

i84. Those are small matters?~-Yes, referring to pipe tronblcs only. 785. By the Hon. E. l'l:fore,11.- What is the scale for the mines at Bcndigo ? -From the m:. ins 4tl. a

1,000 gallons, from the open channels Id. a 1,000. i86. How many are wpplied from the open channeL; ?~Including mines and pyrites works, we

treat them all alike; we have 22 supplied. 787. ·what is the revenue,; from the mines in 13endigo ?--£2,530 from the miue~ ,;npplied off the

pipes, and £719 from the channel supplies. 7!:18. vYonld you make a different scale fot' the mines getting gold and those not ?~I think that

would be fair. 789. You know that a mine may he the biggest (\ne year aml the next year the poorest?- Yes. 790. Should they not be on the same scale, small and great ?-Practically it would be better to

ha1·o a uniform scale, but in theory it would he a good thing, if practic:tble, to colleet from the paying mines ; but I think the only workable way is to have one uniform scale,

i91. How many miners take the water for sluicivg ?-About 4.00, all toltl. The amount of goltl they get is very ~mall-Hrcy jnst make a bare living. I do not think there is :111y retmn of what they get. As to the lost wll.tol', the greatest loss occurs on the branch channels that supply sluicers. Altogether there

59 J. s. Dethridge, lst ,June, 1899.

are about 213 miles of channel in connexion with the Coliuan system. Fifty miles of that may be treated as main channel, and the loss from that is smull; ~o a pipe is uot rGrpiirod for that line. The Chief Engineer gives 10 per cont. as the loss on the main chnnnol; it is the rough channels made for the supply of slnieers on which the loss occurs. They take 1,200 millions of gallous yearly, am1 the loos incnrrml in snpplyiug that would be auothor 1,000 million gallons at lrnst.

792. By the Hon. D iJle!l·illc.-Is 1:ot l\Ialdon the hc11t pa.ying of the lot ?-No, I think not. The reticulatious of Bendigo and Castlemaiue are the ~onrccs from which we derive the principal revenue.

793. From a mining point of vie1Y, does not Mahlon nearly pay the best ?-No; taking the interest, I think .:\laldon would be jn~t about the same as the rest.

794. What rate shoul(l be paid by the mining people, do yon think ?-:My idea a.t present is that it may be eorrecdy st,atetl that in \·er,,- few cases do the ehargco for Wttter come to more than l per cent. of their other charges.

795. Have you fixed a fait· am1 reasonable rate for the mining men ?-I would not think any increase fair unless done in 1his \\'ay: That the h. rate were Rpplied to mines, and direct assistance given to the non-paying ones. I think if the rate were iucre:tsed to ls., lhat then dit·ect assistance ~honld be given to the non-paying mines-that would work more equitahly than the present mode, and no doubt some mines could afford to pay a higher rate. I know of one mim', in a certain yt>ar, where the charg-e for water came to only 180th part of the other expcnse,--it could not be said that such a small proportion of expenses as thnl 1\ould he prohibitive to mining.

796. By the lion. J. IL Llbbnll.-You lm Ye been asked whether the :Nlalmshury HPservoir could contain sufficient water if it, had not been allowctl to go over the by-wash, and so do away with tl1e neee~~ity of another reservoir ?--If the water tlmt went OH~r hml been conserved; hnt that could ha Ye been aone only by anorher rescnoir-we cannot retain the water without further storHge capacity.

797. In question 2013, it is said-" \'Vas the water takeu the same cnre of thnt it i>< now, or was too much let go over the by-wash"; that, I suppose, i;; the roasun you h:n-e to keep it low ?---\'Vc no longertlo that; it was the pmetiec some years ago, hut now when it goe~ over the by-wash of course we catluot help it; we have no mPanH of l'olding it.

798. By the Clwinnan.-Boforo it runs over the by-wash you till all the othor reservoirs as full as they can hold?-Y os.

799. By the Hon. J. ll. Abbott.-Has lhere been any nppllcation fo1· exteusion of channels for irrigation or mining pnrpose8 whid1 haYe not been grnnted ?-They won Id be marle to the hea(l oflice, rmd I would heat· of them. I cannot say that :my have been rnade that ba,·e not been gmntcd. There i~ an application for an extension in the Campbell's Creek tlistriet which is at, present !wing inquired into; none have been absolutely refused that I am aware of.

800. As to the domestic complaints at Eaglchn.wk, tlw.t is owing to the high le,•els and smallness of the pipes ?-Yes.

801. B!J Mr. Styles.-In Sub-Appendix Ko. I., page xix, Colihan scheme, the net re,·crme for 1897-8 is given us £16,742-wbat is the interc~t on the capital cost at '1 per cent. on the £1,070,000 ?­£42,800.

802. The expenditure there only covers the working expenses ?-Yes. 803. What is the loss on that scheme eYery year ?-£27,058. 804. What is the gross revenue ?-£25,.100 ; that makes £62,.'5513 ns the annual expenditure on the

Coliban system for interest and working expenses. 80.5. According to that, the gross reveune does not half eoYcr the working expenses and interest ?­

That is so. 800. Do you think there is any way of increa:-;ing that revcnne by charging any of the consumers

more ?-No; there \\'oti!d be no willingness on their part to pay more. 807. Assuming they nre nuwilling, couhl the prices be raised, aud, if so, in which particular

direction-which items con hi be increased in price?-[ Look£ng at Sub-Appmd£,r Nu. 11.}-To get any material increa.se the higher charges wonld haYe to be made on the domestic rrttc, domestic meters, railways, nnd mining supplies uy meter.

808, Could not the ch:trge for clmnuel supplies for sluiccrs be increased ?-1 think not. I think no more money could be got out of slnieiug ihan at prese11t. Our experience with it at td. a 1,000 gallons for sluieing is that we get nearly aC\ much total reYcnue as whcu soltl at ~d. As soon aH the rate is increased the ;;lnieing falls off.

130U. What becomes of the mcu-do they cease working, or take more care of the water ?-They may take more care not to waste at the higher rate.

The witness wlthdrew,

Stnart llurray, recolletl and further examined.

810. By the Clwirman.-The Committee arc anxious, before they tlt'liberatc on this question, to fmd out positivdy, as far as praeii(•ahle, if we can tlo without thi~ second proposed reservoir at l'riee's­bridgc ?-Certainly we can ; we ronld do without the Coliban altogether.

811. There nre a large number of people w!Jo conlrl not do withont it ?-They would have to go somev;·herc else. You mean, woulr1 the di,;triet rr•main as it is ? I think, Jll'obnbly mining would go on pretty mnch ns it is going, bnt the looked for progress in mining nml frniH;rowing, nnd the looked for increase of Bendigo and Ca,;tlemaine wouid r_ot, take place at nil without a further .~npply of water.

812. But if some other metho(l were adopted to presene the water rather than letting 80 much go to waste ?-I run not aware any goes to \Yaste in the strict scn~c of the won!.

SUI. There i.,; something like 4A pn c~nt. of waste by the returns ?-vVaste is hardly the term. 81 J. At any rate, it i,; not n~e<l ?-There is a cert.ain amount of \YfJ.tcr lost by evapumtion nnd

soa.lmge,_YOU ean hardly c.all that wn~te. T~10 channels 1night be liued awl the lo~s hy soakage anti eYaporMwn rednecd; bnt rf yon a~k whether 1t woulrl l•e cheapc!' to senrl down more water or Jine these channel~, I Slly, sent! more water. A good tleal of warer is lost to !lie reYenue by our methods of measure­men~; they are s,omewhat .crude, almost neco~i;nrily so, !:nd therefore we tn~e care to always gh·e tho parttes enongh. Then, besHles thnt, we supply people wtth 'Yntcr at t!Je tnnc the,Y want it, we dQ fl\lt

Stuart Murray, lsfl June, 1899, 60

insist, as we ;night, npou applicant:; for wnt<•r for sluleiug mHl fruit-growing giving us notice to-day or some day of the wnole supply they l'O(jllire for the ~ix months o1· year. ff we did tlwt we might avoi<l some of the loss thnt 1akrs place now; but that wonld restrict the indnstry to some rxtont, and he a hardship to the people, and tlH:y would complain londly. Then we sometimes snpply siugle parties and ;;[uicers through :J, considerable leng;h of channel, mvl to do so we !uno to fill the chanBel or obe let the water rnn down slowly to tllC nmishing point, iu faet, dribble it, in which case we would anin in revenue, bnt the cliffcrence in thn eo,-t for labour and the lo~s in the aggregate wonld be greater th:t1!

0

a~ nmncrs nctn~,lly are, t,hough the Jo;s wo1dd 11ot fall on the ><y~tcm, b'.tt on emnebod:v else.

8L"i. Is not, i'hc 4J per cent. a large proportion nut to be used ?-It is !lOt prodneiug rei'Cntto-of course a good doni of 1 hat is nsed for sanitary purposes.

HlG. :Not. very much?-Yes, for watering the towns. Takiug it the way you put it, it seems a good deal, but the loss i,; n;ry much lrso than the losa, as fnr n~ I can ascertain, in tl10 administration of any other public body administering water snpply in the colony or anywher'c else. If our \\'atel' were entirely sent from Malmsbury in pipeB there wonld be very little wa,.;tc. Take the numerous trusts tlu·onghont the colony-for in,•htncH, tlw '''irnmora United 'Vatcl' Supply Trnst, :;ome of whose works you saw last week -that trust, I feel jn~tillcd in Rnyiug i~, all thing:; con~idei'Cd, an exceedingly well-managed body. The good m&nagcmeut is no lloubt duo to the fact that as commi~sioner,; tlwr hanl hn,l the selection of' a unmlJcr of men of means and position and intelligence to gnide them, allll in~ vcr_r great mea~urc due to the fact that Mr. Clemes is tho secretary and praetical mannger-om losR is a mere flea-bite compared with theirs.

817. By ~iJf.r. Styles.-\~hat does the llifference nri;;e from ?--l~ccanse their channels are not kept as clean as onrs, and the water i~ carried a greater length.

818. By the Clwirman.--Thc reason is that enm the mallee would be swamped in some of tho lmrd they send the water tbrongh ?-No doubt the soil has a groat deal to do with it.

819. \Yhat strikes us is the enormous qua!Itity of water that goes out of the }Ialm8bury Reservoir that does not produce anything, ami, as far as 1\'8 know, does not do any good ?-Oh, yes; some of it does not, bnt a great deal of it does.

820. You give compensation water whhont going over the hy-wash ?~-That i,; to the river below, but it does not affect the systmn-it goes to the Campaspe.

821. Is there any metho<l by which nJl the wnter that goes down into the reservoir coulll be u~cd, stored in some other reservoir lower down ami nsed as require•.! in tlw ~;ummer time; are r.Il the reservoirs i11 connexion with t,hc :VIalmslmry water supply fille<l iu ll'iutcr and then nm out during the summer ?-They arc filled up in the winter.

822. Every one of them ?-I think so-as a m le th:" local ro,ervoir:o arc tilled in the winter; but allow me to point out that thn running of the water iuto the !oeal n'S"l'Yoirs woulrl not save that waste bccau;,;c of the evaporation. Take the No. 7 reservoir near Bcndigo-tho waste by cvaporatiou there is great<•r than the evapomlion M ::\falmsbury, because it io not so deep.

82:3. Y on would not approve of l::wi ng pipes carrying the water instead of the open channels ? -It colllrl not he •lone ; the cost pntfl it out of the question.

82'J.. Then if the conntry th.a1. this water is supposed to scne in so many localities is to be supplied, yonr opinion is that 11 second reservoir at Price's· bridge iH necosmry?- Y os, 1 think we have come to the stage when it slwn!tl be done.

821). As to the Mahlo11 snpply, we ha(l Rplendid evidence as to that from Mr. Gray ?-I have not soon his evidence.

826. He snp•, if n third rcsen-oir in some of those gullies now is coustrnetcd, a pipe from Green Gully to the pump, aiHln pump supplying tlmt higher reservoir, won!d be ample for mo.ny years to come to serve Mnldan. Other cvidonee has been gil'en that if the present pipes from Green Gully to ~lnhlon were taken out and a 10-in. pipe right through it woultl serve the pnrposc without any pnmpiug; which is correct ?-I have not gone into the question from that point of view. Yon say, collld more he delivere<l by a lO-in. pipe hy gravitation or a 6-in. pipe by pumping? It wonld dl1pend on the level at which we have to clelhcr the water. There lHC t,1vo reservoirs there, ucither ol' which conhl he used to Htore a larger qnantity than it does now. The third roscnoir woul.l be at n different leveL The amonnt that could be delh-crcd by gTavitation would dcpeml on what that level is ; it would be ucarly as low as the lower or;c, I think probably a I 0-in. l)ipe would dc!i\·er a far larger amount thau yoa ''an get by pumping.

82i. \Voultl there be enou;d1 pressnro by a lO-in. pipe to fill the two present reservoirs and the ono proposed hy the local people ? -To keep them filled in the winter?

828. Yes ?-~There wonl<l bel ;::oonglt to keep those t,wo basins filled at the hPginning of summer, and with thnir aitl to maintain a full supply in summer on a basi~ as liberal a~ we arc supplying Castlc-mainc autl Bcndigo. .

829. \\rhich would be ehco.per ?-To deliver the quantity we do How the pump is cheaper, hut that amount is insufficient-yen cannot ,lcli ver enough with a pump. If you lw n: to serve Maldon OH

the same lihcral scale that we serve Ca~tlcl!laiue mHl Bendigo, the cbc~tpcst way, 1 think, 1nmld be to lay a larger main; it certainly wonld luwc heen cheapee to lay a hu·ger main in the first inBtanee. It sbonld be a 10-in. wrought-steel main ; it wou],J not need a pump tlwn-the pump was put in lately as a tempomry expedient.

8cl0, 'Vhat would he the co.-;t of that ?-I have given you tho figtlrcs. !531. l'Jy 'Jlr. Styles.--Ifyon take a 10-in. pipe half-way, rmd hty the other two the rest of the

way ?~-~Two 6-in. pipes would not oany as much llb a 10-in.; the two would be about rwo-thir~ls of 10. lt would be an unwise thing to do, h"cau~c it woulll he cheaper to lay a IO~in. and sell the other p1pcs.

832. Wonhl a IO~in. main fill the three reservoirs ?-It wo1ild tlepend entirely on the len;l and the capaeity of the new reservoir. 1 say, taking the two basin~, that if we had a 10-in. main we coni.! have them filled at the beginning- of every H!llllllJcr, and with their ai\l gi vn a~ liberal a ~upply as to Castlemaiue or Bendigo widwut any thin! bn~in; 1 do not think a third would lw uel~e;sary at all in that onse-the third might be ncces:::nry to the pumps, bnt not to the other.

8;~3. [t was said. that nt MniLlon the people wnstctl a goml deal of water there, for gardens partiou­larly, while the Departnunt allowecl the wtL'it\lJ-\Vo do not allow the wnstP. Theril i;; t~lways a (lifliculty in preventing waste; what we eoHsidet· IYasto the p:)()p]e do not. For in,;tanee, a man's wife or <laughter, with a garden on a hnt wind day; they consider it a hanlship if the Dcpo.rtment will not allow them a few

61 Stuart Murra), 1st June, 1899.

huekets of water. \Ye tried to in~:,;t on meters, and then they brought all sort;; of influence to bear; it wonld hen savi1w nil over the system if we conld enforce the Hoe of meters evcrywlu•rc. This is the retnm asked for hy the Committee, ~b-owing 1 he revenue required to prod nee u ce1'iain rosuiL---[hnndiug in the

8iJ4. B.IJ tlte lion. D. ;lfr{~:i!le.- You i1avc inelmlcd the 110\\' cxpenditmc of £100,000 ?--Yeo. 8:);;. You have mi6otl some of the priee;; to 1 s. 6d. ?-~Thnt is the tlumestic rare. s:l6. Tlw mi!1i!1g snpplie,.: arc ()d. a tlwn.-<nnd, the si:Iic(•rs ~d., anol otllet· suppiie~ Id. ?~-The <;hiel'

differeHces arc, we have increased dw rate l'rom Is. to Is.()(!., lenl'ing the minimum aH liOW, £1; that ts to sny, the poor people will not pay any mmo-lhe ext,ra rate will fall 011 the l>et.ter-oO' portion of the mte· payer~. Thc·n the meter rate, the l'atn to the l'<tilwny~, ;nul th• mder to trnde :ue left the ;<amo a.~ tl<ey \H:re. Tbe ~npplies to the pipe,; i'or mining :ne r:1isod from 4t1. to :twl I have taken the ehanncl "nppEos for slnioing nll through at half the legal rate. At present we supply at half the legal r<1te by :i\IiniMPrial onler.

H37. iYotlill this be oppre-sive on any one ?-It would certainly be deemed oppre.ssive at first. I tlo not think it coald he eousidered oppre.~~il-e reb.tivelx tot.he rrice~ that other prople pny in other parrs of the colony for water ns regard:; the domestic rate. I explaine•l thttt in 'VoodetHl, a place more easily supplied than llemligo and Ca~tlemaine, auol which can, in the natural eomlition~ of the cao>e, be supplied lower, t!te nne i." 1 '·lid., wherPns in Hcmligo nn(l Cnstlemaiue it is ls.

838. By the Hon .• J. 11. Ab!Jott.-Does it pay at \Yoodend ?~They hn,·e always pnitl their way. Then coming to the miniug rate, that b rnisud from 4rl. to 6d., yon eon!fl h:mlly my that woul<l he oppres­sive, hut it would have this effect, it would act ns a and weight to some extc·nt 011 progressive mining comp:mie~. It migi>t not lJe very heaYy, !,ut it would he hard in that <Urection-it woul(l not be heavy on tlw mines pnying t!iyitlenrls--it wonltl mean this, the diftereuee betwec:n £2,1-12a and £±,050, nhont £1,'100 n year fiuthcr to go in tlivideml~ and less in reve11ne. As to thiB other rate, if we insiRtcd on the legal rate for ~lnicing it would l_,e oppres~ive in this son~e, that. n grent many very poor men who uo\Y make a liriug l>y it wnu!t! not he able to !h-e at all~at present they do uot avemg·c more than 15s. or .£1 a week.

K39. t!w ChaiTman.~Yon o<ay rai;:ing to wonLl be oppre~sive-it would invohe only £1,1500 cHiu difference That i~ nil-it woul<l affeet the (ruanlity of water we wunhl sell.

KW. By ll{?·. 8ty{es.--\Yns there t:\'Cr a larger scheme in eonnexion wirh .i\lalmsbury ?-At one time tlwre was a proposal to build a reservoir at or about the present pmpo~ed ~ite to hold not loss than 10,000,000,000 gallons. It was proposed by the original engineer of the ~cherne.

8H. Why was it. Hot carried out ?~1 cmmot tell yon tlmt. I snppose the money was not forth­coming.

~ t\42. By the Chai1·rnan.~l find the difference between raising 960,000,000 gallons from ;};d. to ~d. woultl involve oulv £.500, sn that is not worth tnking into eonsi,]emtion, evcu if you leave it at !<1. ?-It is not very much, the grout item i:; undoubtedly tbc (fome;,tie rate.

813. \Vhai about the railways ?-"'n do not propose lo alter that, hecau~e Is. hy the meter is a fair priec in any enHe.

844. The domestic rate inroln·s £21,000 ?-It would make a difference of nearly £5,000, what I put. it down at.

H4.5. tlte Hon. D .. Me/rille.-Will those rate~ wipe ont the defieit in t.ime ?-If you take the capital at the nmonnt I have t·lated there, which I think would ho a f:1ir amount, mHl if tllP money could be borro"·ed at 3 per cent. in the fuwre, it would wipe ont the delh:it, if my J'oreeast is eorrect-those things will remain pretty much a~:> they are for the uext century-it would not wipe Ollt the past, that is paid for and !lone with.

ts46. By the Hon. E. Jtorey.-Do not you think lA. 6d. is too much for the domestic rate ?-The people wou Id think so, no donht, hut in view of the rates charged in other places it is not, and in view of the difficuli:ies of supplying Bemligo aut! Castlemaiue.

847. Some have :;aid that client~ who pay well slwultl pay more than those not paying ?-It would be felt as a great difficulty. The difficulty of discriminating a thing of that kind would be Yery great.

1'he witnes.3 withdrew.

John Stewart Dethridge, recalled und further examined.

848. By ilb·. A. IIarris.~ Yon sahl t.hat there wa.s delRy took place in communicating with the channel-keeper,;-can you snggest any way of minimizing those delays ?-I think the delay i:; so small and trivial that it is hardly nece:;sary to suggest anything. We take all reasonable mean~ to deliver the water ns soon as we possibly can after receiving the order, lnlt we do not send the water along till it is actually ordered, otherwise t.he loss would he larger than it is.

849. Are the resi!leuts awnre of the notice tlmt has to be given when any speeial supply is required ?-Yes, they are all well awnre.

850. Does the Department contem11Iato putting larger pipes ?--There i~, provision in the estimate ont of the £100,000 for larger pipes for the higher parts of Bemligo; that will make the supply sath:factory as far as the mines taking supplies off the pipes are eolleemed.

851. It will rest with the mines to have pipes of their own ~ufficient to meet requirement;,;?-Yes. Sti~. What would be the eoat of piping the area required to he served as against the cost of n

separato re,;en-oir?-Owing to the small falls with which the open channels are constructed it wonld not be pipes but com~rete or other lining that would be used, and that would mean a cost of a qnnrter of a million : it would cost rather more than £I ,000 a mile on the average.

8.)3. Wnulrl it be better to provirle some more efficient mean" of distributing the water and save the loss rather lhan construct an additional reservoir ?-No, I think not. 1 think it would be more economical to provi(le the extra water than try and save it by the channels.

8i'i4. Are ll1c channels suitable for lining'?~ Yes. 855. Are they suitable for pipes ?-The lining would he the more eeonomical method. The only

place where pumpin~ j, done is at Maluon, and that is another matter altogether. 856. When the Malmsbury Reservoir was huilt was it contemplated to serve the present area?­

I think they must have contemplated it-I do not know, it happened long before my time. In a return

J. S. Dethridgc, 1st June, l89!J. 62

prepared n few months ago, I think the population at the start was given as about 40,000, audit is 110\V

51,000; the same centres \\'ere all supplied then, bnt the length of ehaunel must httve been much loo'S. 857. lJy 1lh. White.-You infonncJ n~ that you have 1 ,200,000,00D gallons goin"' to BlnieerR, an cl

you were 50~),000,000 gallons short in certain dry year~, thou if there was uot anv slnicin;;:' You would ]uno 700,000,000 gallous to spare?-Yes. • "" •

8,)8. H:ts thJ Dep:trlment ever ascortainetl wh'tt th J~3 m~u were carnin« tltt·ou"'h "'ettincr this w.cter? ,- 0 0 t:> "'

-i-'0~

8:59. Wonld it not Le as well for the State to pension those men off' at once instead of giving 1hia 500,000,000 gallons ?-As u matter of opinion I thiuk t:w proper course is to restrict the slnicing at the times when the water goc" short, aa,l nmkc sluicerd !lcpen(lGnt on Uw se:t':lon~, the s:mw way as agrieult.uri;.;ts to that. extent-when there is •bnger to other iodu~tries they h:we been re~tricteu.

860. By the Chairman.-If the Rluic0rs nre pnrely and simply slnieers, aJHI if yon make them idle for two or three months in the year yon may as well te!l them to go out of the eonntry ?-That is a matter of poHcy I would prefer not to :speak ou.

861. By 1lir. TF!Iite.-lf half of tho,;e men enru only~;;. or 5s. a week, 1mles;; you have sufficient water to supply 1\w otber men in g1tllies and creeks in pnynLle gronud, wouH it not be bc!tcr to penEion them ofr!-I think that is rr.t!tcr a matter of policy.

1::1G2. How lo!1g \YOJtld it take your oHicer,; to go fro:u pnrty t.o p:trty nnJ nscertnin how mnch dwsc slnicers have earn;;d in the l:Ht three mouths ?--It might take a fnrtilight, and it would be simply tlwir word, but there nre a large number using the tn.il water with whom we are not brought into contact.

86:1. One ma-t pnys a halfpenny nt the mine and cigh t or nine get that. water for nothing after him -we would like to kno"' what th~Jy are earning ?-All we eoulJ tlo would he to instruct otu· channel keeper lo sec the men. •

864. fly ilir. A. llarris.-Do you know that men phcc (lllmmies in order to escape paying ?-No. 865. \Vhere they refuse to p·ty for \\'ater i~ where it wonld rnu to waste in any case ?-It was

a!reatly lost to the Dep:tt·tment., ami would go to waste in any case. 866. lJy JJ.fr. lVAite. -Do you tit ink the Department ohonld charge a !d. for a certain sluice

bead, and th·.:n claim the \ntter anJ charge again? -The cost of doing that \Yonld be more t.hnn it is worth, and there \Yonltl be nobody willing lo pay for the wntet· :tgain.

867. By the Hon. E. illnrep.- Why shonltl the mnn at the top of the gully pn:y, and the ones below pny nothing? -Tlw tlilnr.:nlty i:l that we lul\~e no means of prcYcnting the people down below using it ; the water is there, ttlH! \Ye h:wc to let. it nm down the natnral gully. It has been bonght aml paill for, aml we cannot di\'ert it ag;;in uml t.:hal'gc for it.

Tlte witness witltdrew,

Adjourned.

TUESDAY, 20m JUNE, 189D.

JJ[embers preseut:

l\IR. C.umnoN, in the Chair:

The Hon .• T. H. AlJbott, 1\LL.C., Mr. Craven, The Hon. D. :Melville, :Vf.l".C., 1\fr. A. Harris, The Hou. E. 1\forey, M.L.C. Mr. Style~,

Mr. Trcnwith, Mr. White.

Stnart Murray, recalled and further examined. 868. By the Clwirman.-Some qnestion has arisen as to the compensation water sent down the

rivers Coliban u.n(l Campaspc ; a largo number of people arc dependent on the water they get, aml we want to know the qwmtity of watcn· that yon let through as compensation, apart from what goes over the by-wash ? -:First ol' all, tl1ere is one statement I want to make, partly in correction of an oversight in my own evidence, nud also snpplomentary to the evidence given by the accountant. I menlionetl the rate, :1

;j,d. per thousand gallons, at wltich we sell water to the slnicers when the level of water stored iu Malmshury is as high as the masonry sills. I stated that was by :Ministerial onler only; I was wrong in that., it b by a "rnlc, regnl:ttion, and order" of the Governor in Conncil, which has the force of law, but it is simply made every year for the current year--·it is ne-ver made a continuing by-law. It was made last on the 19th of August, l89ti, to remttin in force to lhc end of the year 1898; it has not been renewed this ye:-~r, bcc:tnse the water is uot yet np to the level of the sills; when it i::~ the same course may be foliowcu.

869. Do you charge more than ;!d. at present. 870. By J.lfr. Styles.-What. is the legal rate ?-id. woul(l be the legal mte for the time. The

"rnle, regulation, nnd order" is not n continuing rule as our otl1er regulations are-it is simply ma<le for the year.

• 871. Then the Go\'ernor in Council could make it anything he liked ?-Yes, and make it a con­tinuing order if he liked.

872. He could increase it told. if he liked ?--Of eomse. 8i3. By the Clwirman.-He ha,; the same power to fix the rate at ld. as he has to fix it ;fd. ?

-That is ~o. Coming to the particular qucotioll on which you have asko(l further information from me, the first is the amount of componsation wnter sent down per day and pet· annum from tllc present reserYoir. The flmount of C·:>mpens:1tion water seat down ut present is never less than 500,000 gallons per 24 hours-it is a continuing stream, generally from 500,000 to 1,000,000 gallons-that water is sent over the compensatiou notch. BcBides that, howcYer, there is an escape through some open jointed le~tk about a third of a mile probably from Malmsbnry ; it has 11evm· been clo~ed. It would be an cxpensh:e matter to do that-it has not been done during all the 30 years or more that channel has existed ; there 1s an escape there of about 500,000 gallons a day, so that you may say the compensation water at all times is

63 Stuart }!u 2oth June, 1899.

1,000,000 gall ono per d>t.f, ami it varies from that to 1,500,000; that is, the compensation water, strictly speaking. Theu the next question mentioned in the letter sent to me i~, the amount of water to whieh persons now rccei dng water are legally entitletl. I feel some diffidence about ans\\•ering: that que.olio<l hecau~e, as far a" 1 know, there is no hw on the su1jeet. I helieve I am correct in saying that bwyo1~s, :md legal <l<:cision,; in Eug;l~sh common l:tw, ha.ve 1~eve~ succee;le~ in settling what are the leg:nl nght,; of per.,ons to water. 1 he general assumptiOn 1n Great llntaw, amongst erwineers and h\Yyer6 who ,Jcrd wit.h such questions, is that compensation water, where the natural stream is rlammctl, ecnt tl~wn to compen~ate tl.Jc rights of the riparian owners below mnst be equal to the minimnJ_U summer flow, or onc·l.hird of tlw m2nu flow of the river. A,; to the Colihltll at Malmsbnry, although lt 11ev·cr g;ns a::..nint.J1y dt'J, lut .•l nnt· as to he of uo vothu, the eomp<~ll:Btion water is far more than the minimnm snm:m:r fbw, awl ns the total anmml voln11te of the liver varies from 6,000,000,000 gallons to 20,000,00:),000 gallons, mHl as ri \·ors in the colony generally vary, from year to year, by a volume of from three to ~ix times that of another year, to ;,peak of the mean flow of the river is absmu-tl1ere is no such thing. It eomos to thi:l, that the principles of common law, as ;;dtletl in England, irr relation to the flow of rivers cannot lw,,·e rmy application hero, as the faets arc so difiere11t.

8'74. You ~ay that there is more compensation wntcr let down this river tlmn the river carried down in the summer time ?-Moro than the minimum.

H75. How nmuy gallons went do\\'11 this river in the summer time before there W<tS a reservoir at all ?-Judging by the ue<u· past, it wonltl ben very small qmJ.utity, not grcn.ter than the quantity that flows iuto the JYialmsbury I{eset Yoir at present.

87G. Where the Colihan joins the Campaspo below that, we \\'onld like to know tbe quantity that wonltl go tlown thcrJ if thoro wero no reservoh· ?-lt wonltl be something less tlum flows into 1\Ialmsbury in the smnrncr thnc. At present, nf, the junction of the Coliban t.lw water fl;Jws always. In the natural c:Hhlitions of the e::;;e, no tlouht water llirl not flow nlwnys, so the question is answered from that point of view; the minimum is greater uow than it wns before. Some snmmcrs, very dry years, as a mere mutter of grace, we have sent~ a large yo[ume down the Campa'>pe to Hochcste1·, heeause the river Le low the jnnction becomes dry evNy snmmcr.

H77. In which channel was tho largc,:t flo\\' of water origiaally, the Campaspe or the Coliban ?­The Yolume for the wlwlc2 year iH very much greater in the Cumpa,;pe for the year; the Campaspe has a large!' <lrainage area, but the Coli!mn, as it harl springs at its head, was n. 1nore continuing Yolumc. The Campaspe i>< ortcn dry at Kynet.on, !Jut th.J Coliuan is never ilry at Jfalmshury in the conr:<c of nat.ure.

H78. Looking at the jnndion, and with yom compen.-<ation water g•)ing rlown the Colilmn, tloes that in a dry ~eason carry more water than goes <lcJwn ti1e Camp:tstle i11 a clry season? -Certainly yes, because in cn~ry season now, \\'ntcr scut down from ::\Ialmsbury re~tches the Coliban at its point of junction vvith the CamJHlspe, whcrea-; tlte Campaspe in the p:tst three summers has Loen dry for two or three months at Kynct.ou, 20 miles by road above the junction.

H79. You :trc satisfied that there i,,; more water going !town below the junction of the two rivers now in the summer time than there ever was before '?-~The minimum flow is certainly greater.

880. l1!J lite lion. D. Melville.~\Vhat about the maximum flow ?-That is less. 381. I undcn:tand, 011 the whole, they may he getting less water?-Uudoubt.edly they arc, because

we send it to Ca~tlemaiue ami Bendigo, iustea<l of its going down the river. ti82. On tlw whole the people down there arc getting les~ water than they used to get ?-Yes, every

alienation of water cut:tils that; conseqneuce. 8113. \Vbi:e you have taken away the maximum flow from them you have still slightly increased

the minimn1ll ?-Ye.s, every nlionatio:1 of water for any intlustrial purpose, or any purpose, must necessarily diminish the flo\\• in the ehaonel itself, but the dimiuntion of the flow in the river channel is sometimes of benefit to ripaTian owners because it may relieYe floo(ls.

884. By the Chnirman.-All that goes o\·er the by~wash at l}fa[msbury makes up the maximum <pHUI t i ty that used to flow ? -Yes. The next q ncstion mentioned by your Committee is, whether the compensation waters will be increased or <liminislted by the construction of the upper reservoir. Speaking of the compensation water in the sense I speak of it 110\\', a,; compensation water strictly, it wi.ll not be affected in any way whatever.

885. fiy Ji1., T"Vliite.-Do you intend to lea Ye as much water going over the by-wash when the upper rcserYoir is constrm:tcd ?-\Vc nre speaking of the eompensation wate1· strictly just now. I have had pr<·p:rrcd hero a table showiug the volume in millions of gallon" discharged as eompeusation and flood water for each year from 1H89 to l89fi ; you see I mention here the amount of compensation water in a strict sense. I want to giYe you now the snm of the flood water and compensation water together; the compensation Wilter is about 460,000,000 gallons for each year, but the total tlischarge of what you may term \Yaste water, ftootl and compensation, has variccl fr01n 1889 to 1898 from a maximum of I J,Y51 ,000,000 ga llous to a minilmun of ·1,777 ,0~)(),000 gallons. Then detlncting the compensation water, :strictly ~o calle(l, 460,0:>0,000 galloas, we get a balance of a maximum of 15,491,000,000 gallons ant\ n rniuimum of 4,:317,000,000 gallous, so ihat you ,;ee if the new rosen~oir were constructed the amount available for storage in it would vary from year to year from a maximum of 15,491,000,000 gallons to a minimum of 4,H l i,OO:>,O:.>O gallons, that is, the minimum would be somewhat greater than the proposed enpacity of the reservoir iL;;eif.

886. B!J the Hon. D. 11felville.-Di(l you prepare tint stnt< me11t. with 11. normal year ?-I have prepare,! for all the years.

887. How m:my were flood years in the pcrio d ?-I is impossible to rlraw a distinction ns to flood years. I \Yillrcad the cle,·en years- I want to point. out that the maxilllum i; not necessarily a year when there is a big flood; a big flood may last only for a day or a few honr~, but of the eleven years here there were four wherein the balance wouhl lnve exceeded 10,000,000,000 !!allous, and six in which it \\'Onld have been ],•ss tha.n 10,000,000,000 gallou~. ~

88tl. By ;.llr. S(ltles.-In the lo1n•st year there would~ be suflieient to fill the new r<Jservoir ?-Yes; and I wolll'llikc to say that this 4,317,000,000 gn.llons wonltl be in addition to the loss, whatever it may be, between the upper aw1 the lower resen'oir. This volume is here measured ut the lower reservoir. so it lHHl sustained that loss, whatever it may be; but, in the event of the upper reservoir being made, that loss would be sustained in transit .•

Stuart .Murray, 2oth June, 1899. 64

889. There are large quantities of water, varyiug, as shown by these figmcs, going down that stream in addition to the compensation water; that would lJc m:1t01 ially red need by the ()onstruclion of the upper resen·oir; floo I waters pas~ing over the l.1y-wash at Ablm~bnry wonld be reduced? -Het! need by the amount of water stored in t.he upper reservoir.

890. The bulk would be stored in thP reservoir and not gn down ?-- Y cs. 891. WouH they have any equitable daim <!own towards l{r,chestcr atl<l the CamJm~po for that

water having been impounded-you say there is uo hw ?-Xn statute law, awl the comnwn hw i~ very uncertain.

892. But cnstom has authorized tlw scn,Jing t!own of from l,OOO,O'JO to 1,.500,000 gallon:! a day ?-Yes.

893. They ha Ye al~o been accustome!l to h:we tl1is other aclditionnl la1 ge qu:wtit.y scnt.do\vn-wonld any difficulty nriBe from tl1at water being 1·eta.inecl, or a portion of it; conl•l people say-" You have ileprh·ed me of water that would h:we fil!e;l my dam in wet weather;'' woul!l a .li1fieulty ari~e throngh the im­pounding of 4,000,000,000 gallons in the upper reservoir ?-1 feel quite certain tha.t I am on 8afe ground in saying that no deprivation wonltl occur to any person whomsoever.

!:$94. Persons taki11g up land there an1l knowing the flood water tlwt w-rmlly came down, if t.lwy were deprived of a pm·tion of that th!'Y woul!l not sutt\:r any l!N' ?-Xo; the only praetienl question is the quautity of water sent down as compensation, nml that quautity i~ not propo:'ed to be diminishctl; that i8 better from every economic point of view than the nnturnl flow of the river itself.

895. It is cons taut; they geL it every day all the year round, I UlHlorstantl ?~Ye~, and beside,, the Government has now a prescriptive right, irrespective of evCI·ythiug. bccanse it has c;cnt tl1i:> water to Castlemaine and Bentligo for more than 30 vcar s.

896. By JJfr. White.-Bnl they have.~lOt sent what overflows the by-wash ?-No, I am speal<ing of the compensation water·.

897. Both together, the compen~at ion water ami over the by-wash tbey baYe 11evcr complainer!, but if the same quantity goes ov<'r the by-wash will they complain ?-The only thing that nould Hrffcr would be Ellis's mill thaL used to exist; below J\!almsbnry; it wns tlriven by water-wheel. Jt has been nnmed for twenty years for the simple reason that rnnniug a mill by waler-whecl no longer pays, because the flow of the river is so uncertain; t.he only thing they could depend on latterly wn8 the compensation water we son t clown ; a flood is 110 use to the milL

898. Does the compensation water go below the junction of the Campaspc aml the Colilmn '?--It goes to the junction.

899. Is there much of a stream when it arrives there-what quantity goes in the Cmnpaspe ?--­I have never hatl it measured, but it is a sensible stream to tile eye, it is never absolutely dt'y, whereas in the course of nature it was dn.

900. By the Hon. J. n: Ab bott.-It is dry !lOW before it gets to Hochester ?-Yes, for several months, and the Campaspe has been dry for some yearH past at Kyneton for several months.

901. By !l'f.r. Wltite.-Before the Malmsbury Reservoir was constructed did the Campnspe people receiYe more water~could they have stored more water in their ,Jams if they thought fit ?-If the dams were big enough to stol'e it, whieh they never were.

902. Then if yon cut off a portion of the by-wash to fill the Ullper rescl'\'oir, will there be suffieient water to fill the Jams to supply the stock between the junction of the Cnmpa.spc aud Hoclle;<ter ?-[n the winter time there can be no doubt about their beiug able to fill their clams of auy size whatevc:r, or any probable size, but in the summer time they cannot fill dams as the river ceases to flow, nml the damming of the Coliban or the increase of the compenHation water cannot affect the question at all ; lhc Cmnpaspe is much bigger than the Colilmn, although le~s permanent.

903. Y nu said that the people wonld have no moral right to the water because they luwe been having compensation water for the last :iO years ?-No ; J ~aid they would have lost any right by prescription.

904. \Y ould they have a moral right if they were depri vcd of the water going over the by-wash which they had had for :JO years ?-It is bard to speak of the term" moral right" in that sense, but I should say in the common sen>le of the words they would lmve no moral right, that. any practical benefits they enjoy now would not be in any way prejndiced.

905. By the Hon. D. 111dvitle.~Suppose they assert thal it is ?-We should have to join issne then, but if you can explain their grounds I conld answer it.

906. By the Hon. J. H. Abbott.--Has usage for so many years given them a legal right to all the water that goes over the by-wash ?~There can be no right to flood water in respect of uHage a~ floodwater is an uncertain quantity.

907. By the Chairman.-Have they during the last ao years made any elaim for more water ?~No. 908. You have never heard any one down towards Rochester complain that he hns not ;:mfficient

water ?-We have henrd statements that there is not sun!cient water; thiH has oecurrell; the river has been without water a~ Elmorc and n.t Rochester, and further down, but it would have been without water all the same if the Coli ban had not existed; in fact, much more if it had not, becan~e there would not have been the compensation water we scut down. In some of those bad years the people have appealed, not as a matter of right, but grace, to ~end water tlown to them, and we haHe sent, from the Colilmn in some of those years as much as .50,000,000 gallons, and I think in one year 100,000,000; they wanted 5,000,000 a day to clear out their channels and waterholes, which they would not ban; hurl from nature at all during that season.

909. By lYir. White.-Your filling up the upper reservoir will deprive them of certain water going over the by-wash ; you say they have never eomplained beeause they have hat!, in addition to compen8ation water, other water going over the by-wash. \Vith the two together they were satisfied, but if yon cnt one off would they be satisfied '?~I feel sme that if the people on the lower Campaspe h!tve any claim against the Government for compenslttion they will make it, but as to their having any legal right, they have none, and as to their losing any substantial advantage they now enjoy, they will not ; I am perfectly snre of that.

910. By 1J11'. Trtmwith.-I understaml you to state that the amount pre\'ented going over the by­wash would be the amount storell in the upper reservoir ; does that mean 4,000,000,000 gallons every year ?-Ye11.

65 Stuart ~1 urru.r, 20th .J nne, l6}1tl.

91 L The first year, of course it will he so; yon will have to fill the reservoir, bnt t,he maximum IS I ,600,000,000 gallons, a nil the balance will be left in, and the balance only required to be filled, so the maximum taken will Le 1,600,000,000 gallons after the reservoir is full ?-I was coming to U~at. I was abont to say th:tt I have prepared a fmthcr table showing what would have been the result in past years, from 1889 to 1898, if the upper reservoir had been in existence. \Ye h:H~ taken the actual fnct~ as ascertained allll applied them to tlre conditions we proposed to create. The ns,urn]Hiou we made i;; that 800,000,000 gallon,; wonltl he lo~t. eYery year in the upper resenoir by evaporation.

912. I uw!er,;tood yotr to sny that whatPYer k"s there is Ly enq)oratiourH'W takes place above the .:VInlrm;bmy Hcbenoir; will you increa~e the amount of lo~,.: h~- en1porf1tion hy having the upper reservoir? -Xc, we will not Jo~c more, Lenw~e tlJC water 1YOHh1 h!ne bPcH lm:t 1>1· goi1w down the riYer ami being evaporate,] there on tLc ~w:unp buds tl,at abut it; hut that i,; the; qnan~t.1· we <leductel from th~ 4,000,000,000 gallons illlponuded for the loos in rl>e reservoir itself. Thc•:1 w;• have to dednctnbo 2,.:;:m,ooo,ooo gallons, thnt is 011 tlw as~nmption that the mean annual ontp<tt for the ~erviec of C;~'ltlonl'lilH' aml Bemligo and the other districts would be ineren:-e•l hy iiO p·r r·~·ut. It i,; at prcseut .'i,OGO,OOO,OD~) gallon.", ~owe have to take 800,000,000 gallon~ for evaporatiou, nn.J i!,,)30,000,000 gnllons fort lw incn•n,;ed sonic•'; and ad•1 those tog<·ther a1H1 deduct them from the to· a], nnd the bn:nnt·c i~ tlH• '[Ualdity to lw lcrt iu the rcser­roir. In titnc the in(Teasc lllHY he as brge !IS 70 p~r cc.•!. or a litilo llFH'c', in \YLich e:JHC tl1c npper l'<'"•-'l'Yoir

woultl Le a,l,~nhuely empty ; but J assume at prc,;ent only 00 per cont. 913. f understand that 800,0()(),0()0 gallon;; goe., over the J,~·-wash nt pn:sc•llt ?-YeA; thi,; pro­

vision heincr made, the lmlaucc~ for the ntrion,; -. 1;nr~ would haYe Ler:n ont• year ±,06S,OOO,OOO gallons, that i" more th~n the fill of tire re,;crYuir; next. ~·,•nr, ·I,U:!2,00:l,OOO gnllnn" ": next, l0,260,COO,OOC f!:tllou~, much more f,]mu the fill; next, 9,,)72,000,0DD gallons; aud l~,59:l,OOO,OOO Ion,, Then \\'C eomc tu the three drought year,;, 1896, 1896, nnd 1897: in 1895, 2,8;J9,000,000 gallons would h<11'e been the balanoe; 1,4+4,000,000 gallous in 1897 ; and in 1898, 2,.)93,000 ,000 gallons; so that you ~ee in the \nmr year if that re,;ervoir had existed in the pa~t, and if tlre out put luul been .)0 per .-:cnt. larger rhm1 it, aetually llils hoeu, the provisinu by my proposal ngainst dro11ghts woult1 L:we lli•cu 1,4·H,OOO,OO;J gallons. The acrnnl rc,;ene agaim;t rhe contingent:ies of a water famine Jws fallen as low as les,.; than .)00,000,000 .~·;tlluns, which, in my opinioll, i~ perilously low.

914. B!J JlJ,·. Styles.- I nntler;<i ami from you that on the aYeJ·age, w lwu the u ppcr rcserToir h carried out, there will be 3,:l:l0,000,000 gallon" p:.•r m!lnnn less pass oYer the by-wash at )[nlm,-IJtiry than 11ow ?-YoB, that is so; t;•al is aHsmniug nn output of only .)ll per cent. larger than nt present.

915. Take it ;;,:lOO,OO:I,OOO gallon,; le~,; will pa'" ill· er the by-·wn~h anurrally t ban 11071", t!tert•fore the people tlown ctrenrn, 1Yherever it may he, will recein: so mrwh le:',; '?-That i,; o:o.

DlG. 1 wnat to kuow whether t 1rill have auy ehim for eompen~ation ai!:nin8t the (}oyemrnent bceanse or ln:ing deprived of thi~ wat(·r; will t Lan; llllY rii!:ht,; that lll!!Y haYe groWl! np; as a matter of equitY will theY ~uli'cr allY Jo,s! --1 am rpin' e!c·ar it would not affect their iaterests whaten·r; that i;;,· it wolllt!I;ot projadic~ them in any way whnu:n:r. .l wa.,; ng to say tlmt be~i,Jes the lJile:;tion of th0 lllill I referred to, thet·c hn>l been al,;o n propo"nl ro baihl a reservoir at Langwornc1· on the Cnrnpa."pe for t be supply for the Campn:;po TnrM ; I hut rcs<:tToir would lJH n: con,;erH:tl t be war er of the Campaspc, and with it, of ec,urse, the water of I he Coli ban ; the po,;,;ible Hll!Ouut ol' water to be stored tlwre from the Colilmn wonltl inevitably be rethrccd by thi;; 3,300,00~l,OOO gallonc, and if wo used the full qnantity that the new re;o;-,rvnir might store, it 1voulrl ],e re<lnced by 4,060,000,000 gallons lc~s to store in that reserYoir; but that \Yonld he a very ~mall qnantity, ~o ~mnll as to be hrmlly worth con~idcring. \Vhen we come to the poiut. of Yicw of mral ~npply and irrigation snpply, I nm lra,·ing taken out the qna11titr cxpres~ezl in inch ncre~ to ~hen\· yon how little bearing that wonld have: hnt tlwwi; no•.lonbt thnt the pos;;ibilil_v of the ~torngo at Langwomcr won!.! l•e by the <·on~lmetiun of thi~ w"rk tlimiui,he<l to t hnl extent.

Dli. By 1~11'. Tremuitlt.-HaYe tlwy cnn~trncled that ?-Xo, mtd they lzoYor wil!; tl.ey k1Ye askoLl the Govemmcnt to eonstrnet iL arul t.he GoYermnoitt has scrion~ly con:sideretl the project. Hut if the GoYernmcnt were to con~tmct that for the benefit of the people on the lower river, they W()!!ld, in the abstract scnKo of taking something away, be dcpri\·ing some one because the inigntion could only be giYeu to certain areas. \Yhe!l('Yer· you gi1·e water·, you mnst c],, a teellllil'al \nong smne1drere nr to some one, who would lmnJ got it in the co11rse of nature.

D18. That may he arl iujmy or a lJCncilt ?-Ye~, bnt obviol1~ly men could not live 011 the fitee of the earth, in a ~tale of civilization, unloFB that were done in ~ome way. fn explan!ltion I may say that 4,060,000,000 gallon~, whieh is the maximum qua11tity that could he tlin>rted from the Campnspe, expresset1 in inch acres, an itwh acre meaning a depth of 1 inch of wnter over an a ere of laud, or the er1uindent of 1 inch of rairrfall, would mean 18 !,.'i4,'i inel! acres for the yenr, or if yon assume 10 inches a~ the qnantity to Le used in irrigation, it wonltl lJe equal to l8,•J,:J4 aeres. I waut you to understand that in no caee could tbc whole of that water, as~uming it reached Langwomer, nnd were stored there, be used for irrigation, because it wouhl he subject to n fu1·ther evaporation nt J.-ungworner, and in going Llown the rivel', nnd to the fields-if yon got half of it that would be the most under the most, faYorable circmnstances-that wonlt! be 9,COO acre:-! of irrigation-to that extent there is depri~·ation, though it i,; of f'(nnothing they hare ue\·er enjoved.

· • 919. By "lh. Styles.--Thcn n<1 oue's intereot below tlw :;\lalmsbnry Rescrn>ir will suffer if the ne\Y reservoir is constrnct0d ?~--X,) legal right and no existing benefit ndHally enjoyed wonlcl be interfered with by what we propose to Llo.

920. Bytlie Hon. J. 1-l. Abbott.-lt might interfere with something prospeetil"e ?--Something a man might have hnd.

!J21. E!J 1'1-r. Treuwith.-\Vill there not be an advantngo in the pns:,il>ilitie~ of down more water in time of need than you ha Ye had in the past ?-Y os.

~)22. You have sent down iu the past more water, have you fille,1 any legal demand--will thi~ reservoir be in a position to do more if it i~ desirable ?-Clearly. No demand has been made a~ a legal right; if there had boon, 1 should have re~istet! it, mHl insisted on its being witlHlmwn before we sent water do\Yn ; in other eases where a legal right has been alleged I lmvo llone that.

923. With this new reservoir Yon will he a hlc to semlmorc water down at snch rimes than you han· been nu le to in the past ?-y 88. •

3109. .F

Stuart Murray, 20th .June, 1800. 66

924. By ilfr. St.'fles.-Compensa.tion water going through the valve?-Yes. A,- to compcwmtion water, it is a term that has grown up in England amongst engineers more than lawyers, and it i~ under­stood to mean water sent down a stre:1m where the water of the original stream is diverted or impounded for some nccessnry pnrpose or some all vantage to other people; the water sent down is compensation for the rights '!f the riparian owners interfered \l'ith l>y the im])OUIHling. That right hn5 been taken in England to mean n quantity uot less than the minimnm ordinary summer flow of the stream, or a quantity equul to one-third of the mean flon·, hnt. neither of tho~e in this eonntry, in any part of Austrnlin, could have any possible meaning \dmtevcr, for the obvious rea"on that nmny of our best rivers absolutely cease to flow in the snmmer time, awl that in the mo:<t rognlar and uniform of the rh·ers the total volume, from which the mean is to be deduced, flowing down in ';;ne year, is many times greater or h·~:< tlmn it. is in another year; under snch circnmstanees to speak of n mean flow is nouseuse. The Gonllmru i,; one of the must unifom1 rivers in Victoria; we know that within onr own mcasurcmcnt8 the volume of that river n1rios from a qu11.ntity in ono year which is four times the qnunt.iiy that came down in ttnuther year. In the c·ase of the LodtloH, the quantity that comes tlown one is ten tinH<s that of other year~: in the ease of the Vfimmera it is very much rnore: a]](! in ~ome the rivers in New Sontlt 'Vales it variP~ from 110tldng in ~ome year,; to a flootl that :<prcnds on·r the whole country ; to t.nlk of moan flow in sueh cases i:; :m abuse of langr1a.g0.

925. Bv the lion. J. II. Abbott.~,Vhcn the Colih:w He,;crvoir was made was an arrangement made with tho owner~ l,elow where the dam now i,; as to what water shoul,J be given to them to eompen~ate them for the lo~s of the river to them ?-There i~ none on reeord that I know ot; there is no specific arrangement on rccllnl ; there was a great. ma;;:s of evidence taken. I think I read most of that evidence at the time; I was not in the Government seJ·vice at the time, but I wa,; a good ,Jt,al interested in such qucstious, and was livinp: in the loealily. If there was such :m arrangement I should ba\·e known of it. Beside~, I do not see that any arrangement could have been made that could lmve legally bound any one. An arrangement <'ouhl only be marle subject to the law, and there is no law.

926. By Llfr. W/tile.~vVould the law compel the Government lo send down ono-third of the water that p~sses from the upper reseiToir to the lower, to the riparian own erR below the reservoir ?-So. When I speak of it as a matter of law it is only the view laid down in text-Looks. I never beard of any decision ,on the point.

927. At the time the ::Yialmshury Reservoir was construeted was not a scale laid out that, onc·third o! it should go down as compensation water to the riparian owners below l\falmsbury ?-I never heard of it.

926. Not in the first Report of the ~Ialmsbury Re8ervoir ?-I never heard of it. There is a tratlition that some arrangement was come to whereby .500,000 gallon~ were to be sent down. '" c never sent less than .500,000 gnllons.

929. Can you say the number of months in the year that water ran down the Campaspe ami the Coli ban, below :Malmsbury ?-There we come back to the uncertain saasons; even in a district so near the Dividing Range as .Malmsbury you could not say the nverage quantity that came down.

930. Did it run all thf) year round ?~As !\matter of my own pcr~onal knowledge, I ean say no, it did not; hut some years the water absolntely ceased to flow. ~ome years it flowed throughout the whole summer to the junction of the Campaspe, awl .:'Omo year·s it did not. Proh~bly most year~ it ditl not; bnt the Colibnn neYer ceased to flow at JV[alm,;bmy, so far as 1 know, in any year prior to the eon,:truetion of the reservoir.

931-2. iVhat mnnhcr of mouths did the Campaspo cea~e to run ?-Dming last summer 1t pmcticnlly ceased to flow for beh1·ee11 three an,l fom mouths, and you might say the same Jor the past fonr years-from two to four month;;. Yon know y<mrselftlmt in most years the Campaspc does not cease to flow, but during the~c lm;t fom droughty years it ha~ ; it [J.,R becu an occal"ional incident thnt the Campaspe at Kyneton might cease to flow for a mouth or six wceh, bnt "ome years it neYor ceaseJ at all.

933. Yon ennnot say nt what. perio<l of th•! year it emtsetl to flow near the jnnction of the Cam-paspe ?-I think in every ymu for :>eYcral months it ceased to flow· hcforc it there, mHI no doubt at Roehcstcr it c"a~es to flow every year fOl' a good many mouths.

D:l~. Those people between the jnncli<>n of the Coliban mH! the Campa:<pe looked upon the Colihan water as their supply, ns running longer period~ of the yc:tr tkm the Campnspo ?-:\fo doubt; hnt. even the ~ornpensntion \Ya(er, though it reaches the jnnction of 1 he Campaspe, disappears before it reaches El more.

986. You, us the EnginGer of \Vater Supply, !tl'e aware of the formation of the Camp:~spe Tm~t? ~Yes.

936. At the time was it ngrcerl to or contempbtetl to make a snrvey of this particnlar ground, the Langworner He,;c·rvoir ?~Yes, before thi~ trust wn,; formed.

~l:J7. \\'a, t.he tmst formed an,l that (lnm eo11strncted on the uudcrMuntling that this res;;rvoir \Yas to be constmetetl ; there is n weir cow;trneted there that cost a lot of money?--Yes.

9B8. \Vonhl 1hat trust ever haYe been formCLl at all if there was HOt an nnderslanding that they were to get this Lang,vorner Reservoir awl ti supply from the Campaspo :wd Colihan to fill it. ?-I do not know what they uuderstoo<l, bnt there was a irnpre,.:siou in their miwl,:, aHtl there i,.: no doubt at all there wa>~ au intention on the part oft he Go\·ernment to eon~tmet a re~CJToir at at that time.

939. Sn arc preventecl from wntcr the eon::;tnli~lion or not admitted that.

9±0. If take the water they aro HO\Y oYer the hy-wash, or woL!ltl expect to get, wonltl they be ill saying you ha Ye eneoumgcd us to ecrtain work :uHI yon have now deprived us of certain 1ratcr which they thought when they were forming the lflht they \Yonld ?-I nu(lerstantl your queotion would their schnnc be materially pn•jmliee<l by tl1e taking of the waters of the Coliban, nnd I would say no. H the Campa"P'" Trust were a hotly al'tnally using all snch \YUtor as it has to the utmo3t a;h·t~ntc;ge, au;l doing all the irrigation it conld, and if eYery ad(Iition:.d acre tlHit eon!tl be irrigated was an urgent of uwney to the bncl-owners, there w.mld he som:•thing in contention, hut as the Campa,:pe Tru"t has nen•r nsed, or shown any disposition to use, the ,n,tcl' it I do not see where the JcpriYalion comes in. ::Hy view is that this mtter i~ urgently rcqnired in one pnrt of the eolony, for Bcndigo and Cnst,lcmaine, and is not urgm1tly reqnired in the valley of tl,c awl if the water were to Le for it, it ;vould be ouly t·l wait tilln right grew which t!oes not exi;;t now. People h!tve uo to a thing they have not nsetl and may ne\'Cl' use.

67 Stunrt 1\Ltl\Tay, 20th June, 1SlJ9~

941. \Ya.s it not. that they could not ~et the wa.ter nt Lhc rim,; of in the summer?-No, they would noL ust' it when the)~ had; they lmd :Jome water tlteru to u~e, and ouly n:w man, or two at mobt, have u~cd it.

942. ]] y tl,e lion . .f. i I. Al;{mrt. -- \Y a;:. monJY ::d vnne(·d 1" !l:e Cmn :1:1 ope T ntst i o build the reservoir nt ?-Nu: :1- \V~~N a:h:rttucc~d (o t~o:1~~ruct iheir I~.J'-•ai \York~.

94:3. \Vn:o: no1. this pnn ;,f tl:;:i:· loc·al worb·. :·-.:'o, tiwy t.k: •~;oYcr11ment to do this as tt

"natiollal" work. The local wo;·k j,; •·oJJ>tl'ild<:d ,,.,out() mile~ :lb,)ve Ho1:he~tcr, the whole of the ehanueb din:•ro·e frotll that ami carry I he 11 :11e;· Ol'''"! he t'.OIIlliry, Inn tllev :no irrigariug little o;· no laud; •lo not u:o the \Yater titey 1~·l-\;O tl_)r l ·tl. t:' ~ a·, l~a;--; happc:\!ed in otht•r ea~::_;:-:, having the water thCI' a~kcd for, 1 :•it btil: :ill· l·:·.lk t i: •11i:l let go lo -,,,'aotc; m:c it [:,r ~tock allll

a1;d rhe'' arc far won.: l>cforl', Lm in two ca~e" tLtey do 110t use it fo; irrigHtion.

94cL You ,;a(;l1ben; a iot of wntor lo waste :lOIY!l tho e:1annol; does t-hat water get IJack into rho rivc·r it. ~roe~ l•aek to the rin·r as water. It is onlv a vcrv short distl~nee it ;.;oes out: it is where ;he .dmnnel 1lu·uugh some very open ba~:dt. If it: we~·c hali~a-mi.lli:m rrallr>11:• a da.v wo•dd be hnt it, i ., ':ot absolntoly lu,;r.

U.til. By 1lh. A. lfilrn'!r.---·•i<• ,;:on 'get all rile wale;· aL prc,sent. i'roBJ tlm c::tire are:: in!o tile .i\Inlms­bury He~r'~'VOir ?--It. ail pa~"''" thrcngh ; all tlwt Jlnw,; olt the grou;i<l.

D±f'. Yon ('~tnnot conseno ic all ?--No. it l!'OO~ un:•r the br-;·,.a~h. 9cJ-I" It is ,;aid ti;:>.L you Wt,;rld lin.vo - '·of wm:·r ii' sloJf,~ir:g a1::l irrigat.iug were :'topped ?-There

i~ no tlnnbt :1f thnt.--1 do no: think IH' ~hon!tl want a;ty f,.;· tlwlh'Xl :talf-celltury if rlw,;e two were st,oppe~:; n.ud ~d'C tltc :lr fnc~·ot·s i11 ::~in,:: ~itt \\"'Hif:l'.

DV'. lf' two i'n::iol'" wu:·l: un "''I· ,.,!li lnllild thuc~ \t;cn· ~.niJi,;icnt waler 1<)1' the miuel", domo~tie ,;upply, aml stoek ?-Clen,·ly.

!JHI. BH the lion. IJ. Jfe/i.•ilii!.--Aru ;-o;: dull' yna will uol. Le tloing nn irrjttry to any ()f t:horie h:.•low ·:-~o wrong is dono to :·'! [;;;· :•·< l know, iu thi" ~ut~", !lmL JJO person i~ ,lcprive•i oi' llw l!~e of anything of l:c ltn,.: had in dt:: pa:H, llothing wl!ieh ho ha,; actualiy lt \Yill, or CtJt:U'(>,C_, p!·event <~ortain being· ._ion(; dw.t Ju;gliL have be:>H done i[ we do nor. eonserv·n the \Vater; those thing.-; arc various an<l ;;umcron~.

950. By .11-[r. White,-- Will yon uo~ tleprin; the ovn;er almttiug on it from doillg it ?-lt will dcpril'o all the wotlLl of doill;.'.' it.

~)51. ]Jy tlw Hun, D. J/e/ui:/le.-Yo:t m:~y Le d<'in;.; S!lllltl OtW nu injury'!-J'\n, no inj11ry.

9:i2. Ycu lll<ty do it iunoc::nlly i-.::lo itijllt}' legaliy nnd no injnry in :h2 moral sense. nwl no su1J:.;tantial iujur;· L'r.nn au ordi~tn..ry e~lHirue;::-~enr;e point of vie\\~; in f:.~et, no \Yl'OUt~ -;~·hatc;vet·.

9.);_). \··.'Ja~n i.l1c rivp;· i~ iil iiood, :~ fnl'li!Dl' :~uty have an enorrnon~; ~tnd whc\n \V:tlot' he iuny he of get1 iug h~~; ~i·.1!'0 of Yr~-:_ter l(n· purpo:::cs of O\\rn ; tlt(~ll ;,·ol~ your eompom;atiou to reco:.;ni'e t!Jat. y.m were givi:tg !Jim Hll equivalent (,y the daily compeuHa!ion plus what mns on'r 1 and from the l.o!e h I ite roe!( ; you 1o ::>toro up t:hi:-: wat:T uow in the uppt!r reservoir to enable yon to supply wa111~ iu mwthcr dircction; ho\V does that H.ifoet him ?-I do not quite cleariv uuder~tmtd vnur ([UCstion.

" 9i)4. ilr yon~ sceul'lng the W>tter f0r t.lw upper reservoir, it i,c; not. for t be bondit of this agrieultmbt. hut l'or 1 of otherR '?--Clearly.

' 955. An· yon w1t thh1g rile' turi~t at; ilijury in doing good tu the othor man ?·-I think not. 956. Hy eonserviug t.k water for tile pn:·poce:i of tlte otlter man ?-I think nol. Aft.er all, the

lllai kT com<·~ to lit if;, that cve:-y :tppt'oprinli•HJ oi' war er, of every kin•l whatever, Jor nny pnrpose, is :t deprivation to somebody. Tnkin~ tlte qne:;ti•m trout a.ay point o<' Yiuw, a" mon:l," ns ~Ir. \Yhite said, or an onliuary eomn'!Olt-sonsc poi.rt of Yiuw, no >Hong is done, boc:mse the person i- not: deprive•l of anything of ;;ubstantial Yahw that he usul bcJ'orn.

967. lJy .Nr. Trenwiti1.---!Ic ];, not .lop;·ivecl of anything he lm:; ased, or eoulti m•o, beneficially wit,h till.> pnltil:m appliauc,'s ~-\Vith the ln·csc;nL appliances, no, eertaiuly no:. H the water were stored in sumc vao<t re~ervoir of lti,; own, wbiei1 lw ha~ llllt, it migl1t be different.

The untness 'Witluh·ew.

Adjourned.

(Taken at Roe/tester.)

FRiDAY, 23Rn .TUNE, 1899.

][embers present:

Mt,. CA1rERON, in the Chair;

The Hon. J. H. Ahbott, l\LL C., :Mr. Craven, The Hon. D. l\Ielville, 1I.L.C., l\Ir. A. Harris, The Hon. E. Morey, M.L.C. ' :Mr. Styles,

Mr. Trenwith, Mr. White.

William Telfonl W ebb, sworn aad examined.

90t!. J'o the C!tairtli.f1.!1 .. -T re~ido at R<Jehes!er, :c1d am ch;drman of the Campaspe Irrigation and 'y Mer Supply Trust, and I appear hum to repre>cnt that bo.!y to-day. All ihe members are faYorable to the eonservat.ion of water, pcttticularly thnt llowillg' from f.lte waLer'llwds of tile• Campaspe and the Colihan river~. '.Vhether we p<trtieipa\e in tiw pos,ihilitie,, of the work hero nnder eonsideration or not we are prepare!! to support- the com•tmetion of t:-:c: up;x:r TC'-'OJTnir if it i·: eonsi.lored to be in the interest,s of the State. We very much regret 1 hnt th<c se ope of this ilHJLliry, and eortaiuly the scope of the expenditure and appal'ellt intention of the tlne~ uoG cover the 1;ronnd in connexion with which we will to-day give evidenee ; at the r;ame time, we hope that after you ht~. ,.c go no into the question you will give our view your recommendation, and 1hat it wilt be eventually approved of by Parliament. I have no doubt we should

3109. G

\LT. We!>h, 2.3rd .Jnuto, l~IJi). G8

h:t\'e mon·d earlier in thiH mnl!er, but I may say that owing; to the ultimate co~t of onr works IHtviug RO

far CXCPcdcd the on:.::inal cslimatc, rlw 1\'0rks being- uot yet (·omplotod. no drainag;B boiug provided for, tltc water for irri;lntioa king so limited, awl the obligations in the way of interest ami maintenance hcing so largeiy out of pro port ion to the benefits, and ntterly outside our al,ility to liq uitla1c, aud the continued inability ot tlwse in alllh<>J·ity to reeognise the State's foJr share of the ol•lig:atious in proportion to the in­erot~scd produetiou, the los:;es arising from errord in edimates, defecti,·e dc,;igus, and defective construction, the thoughts awl elforts of the prop le of the distriet banc been so paralyzml that it is impos:;ible to get them to toueh any (1uestion of waterworks or wate1· supply. It may be said that we undertook those work; and the ouligations attached thereto with a reasonable knowledge of the position, and with our eyes open in regard to the water avai!uble, h11t this is not so. Our better judgment at the time was blinded by the exaggerated statements of the Juty to be derived from a given quantity of waler aiH:l by the speading aoroad by tbe Government, who pnlJ for the collectio:t 1md distrihutien over the ]ana, of highly coloured word pictures o£ the J,eanty and wealth to be obtained from irrigation. This was the cansc, Rnd the only c:ause, of the existence of llw Campaspe Irrig~ttion Trust, a trust that, ns far as irrigation j,; concerned at present, may lJe looked on as more than a comparative fRilnrc, and, so far as the stock an<l domestie 8upply i8 con~ ccrned, n total failure. Our expericnec for the last £om· or five years has been t,hat no water has been available for any pmpose from the trust chanuel.-: from the first week in Xovember uutil the following June. I have ret'itlctl in t!Jis dtstrict now for about 30 yc!tr~, and during that time 1 cannot remember a winter that ~utlicient rain did not fnll to fill all onr dams before the month of October, but, if followed by a dry Sll!llmcr, many of them went tlry early in the followin~ year and could not be replenished from the trust works until ,June, ~o, consequently, the ~tock aml domct'tic ~npply is almost wholly valueless. From experience we find that, so far as winter irrigation is ••otlcemed, it i~ positively nseless, and, indeed, rilsults in loss unless follO\Yc<l np lly a summer supply. Tlmt is to say, if you irrigate in winter, when the dry wcntbcr comes tllc ground hakes and cmeks and the luxuriant growtli from the applica­tion of water in the winter dies off imme<liatelv the hot weather followH. For those reasons, although plenty of water is antilable for irrigation from ti1e iil'~t week in ,June to the first week in :;"l[ovember, its application during those month~, in mo,;t cases. Jw.s rosnltctl in an ab,;olnte loss. I do not know whether you want information as to the money expended in regard to the trust, but the engineer will give that if necessary. But I do say this, that, after our experience in connexion with the water supply available for stook and domestic purposes antl for irrigation, unless it is supplemented in the way we will propose to-day, the trust may be considered as all absolute financial failure. 'Ye have struggled to pay some little interest arising from the payment of rates, and no donbt we will contimw to do so. But the revenue was caleulatcd to be deri vcd from filling the dams, and it has not reached anything like the sum anticipated; while the money reeeive<l fot· irrigation has he en p~titl more from an experimental point of view than from any genemllJclwfit derind. HJ we do uot antieipute that the rcveunc received during the last two or three year,; will Le eontimwd. \Ve are going to put forward a proposal to-tlay, and I thiuk you will see it is iu the uational interest~. £{)3,000 lHls been lijl<!llt ami almost wasted, but if our works were supplemented with a summPr »npply we woul<l !te all right. Y 011 propo~c to build a n•;;crvoir iu the upper Coli ban to store 4,000,000,0CO gallonH of: water. To my mind, it is not reasmmble to think that Cn.stlcmaine, Bcndigo, ant! Eaglchawk will make u~c of that water far some y.•ars to eome; but, however, ns they might pos~ibly make u~e of some, we would uot ask for more than one-lmlf the quantity stored to be made available here for irrigation. I will Hot :;ay it will pay to store water for the purpose of general irrigation, but iu this ca~c by yonr supplementing· our water (tl:e winter supply only wanting to be made effceth·e hy a summer ,;upply) it woulJ pay 11s to giYe n reasonable sum for the use of t!.c water stored in the reservoir, instead of its being kept there for such tilllc ail Be1Hligo would be able to make n~e of it. I r;ee the engineer ~nys if an additional supply were I:ccec;:sary another storage reservoir could be secured a little distrmce up at a uomim1l eo:;t. If the wauts of Bendigo and Castlemaiue did increase in, say, four, fh·e, or ten year», then woultl bet he ti1ne to take into consideration the buildiHg o£ an additional weir, but in the meantime, in the interests of the State, I believe it would be well to have the water impounded there to be made u~e of at tbe earliest po~sible moment, aiJ(l we would be prepared to do that. vVhen the trust was first furmcd, it was not with a Yiew of the water that flowed ordinarily down the Campaspe making it a profitable trnM. \V c anticipu.totl a reservoir being erected on some portion of the Coli ban or the Campaspe, and one at I,angworncr was thn more popular, but tlte Chief Engineer, when writing his report on our appli­cation, expres5ed the opiuion that onr water ~upply would be totally insufficient unless supplemented by wa~er impounded at some point on the river. The Minister, when making his declaration, also referred to the fuct that the lru8t would re(ptire water impounded for summer use. At that time we were not so ex­perienced as w0 arc uow. 'Ye thought the water would be more valuable to ns nwl giYe a better income. \Vu were ignuraat, antl hoth the engineers aud other oflieers, to a certain extent, were ignorant. If we had known at the time of the obligation~ that nrose under the trnst, or knew the qnantity or value of the water dwt was aYailable for irrigation, we would ne,·er have tone!Jctl it. \Y c made an estimate according to the revenue derivable. and thP .M imstcr approved of it, because lw placed a schedule in his proclamation, and that schEdule set forth that we were to irrigate 15,000 acres it year between summer and winter. TJmt caleulation was U(~cepted to give a certain revenue, but uvw we know from experience, an•l fully realize, that the Cam­pnspe Trust, iustea(l of 15,000 acre~, cannot irrigate a single acre, and that alters the whole position. 'Ve also put down so much to be receivc'd from dam-filling nnd for surplus water to Le used when the river ceases ruuniug ; lmt then the tl:tms are sufficiently full, and you cannot top them up, so we were all mistaken. Every one in the country, Parliament, the Department, and those materially interested, were led astmy by the reports ihac were spread broadcast from California und other places. I will again refer to the question of smnmer storage from a State point of view. They l1avc paid this £63,000 and have no hope, and could not po~sibly h:we n hope under existing circumstances, of getting a return iu the shape of interest. \Ye pay all we get, and put nothing by for the purpose of meeting any extraordinary expenditure, such as might be occasioucd by the floods you see to-day, when it is more than pos:;ible that some portion of our works may giYe way, awl there may be an expenditure of £200 or £:300 neces~nry to repair them. We have not a shilling to do that with, nnd the Government wouhl probably at tl1is stage fail to give ,us the money to repair the work, aml, if nnt repaired, the conseqnenec would be the breach would he extended awl the works might be rlestroyed. The po>'ition, therefore, from the State point of view, is serious, and you, representing that interest to-day, should take into consideration our position, and what an improvement would take place in that position provided we had a summer supply from Oetober to June. The secretary

(}9 W. T. Wehb, 23rd J une1 180!).

will give the anwHut ucce,:~ary to he derivc<l from tl1e ;c;tom:re cnpaeity to give a certain retHrn which woul(l m'tke a finaueial fadure a reasonable stH:ce~"· \Ve did not depend all alnu!.; on the quantity of water that wouhl flow down t!1e rh·crs Colib:m and Campnspe. I sny we i 1titiated the trust under the belief' that the Langworuer RcscrYoir wonld be constructed at once, and unle:is it were constructed our works would be useless. I do not know the quantity of water that could be illlponnded there, but it would be very smalL I know that as soon as the ri vcr ceases· to run the quantity available behiml the weir to meet consumption lYe can draw off about 2ft. Gin. The water is backed up the river probably 6 or i miles, aud at that distance it narrows itself almost to the width of the river bed. I suppose the weit• is 400 or 500 feet across. If the weir had been constructed higher it would be a matter of impossibility to store more water behind it, for it would flood the surrounding country, which is very fla.t. It would submerge a great deal of the surrounding eonntry, and we would have to pay some £10 an Mre for that land. This worl< was not forced on me, but on a great m::tny rate­payers it was. It would have been forcetl on me if I had thought the drcnmstanees would tnrn out as they have. \Vo thought we could get all tho summGr through more water than is running down tlw;;e streams, bat not from the existin:~; storage. \V c anticipated getting it from !1 different stomgc to be supplied. As to our having luvl the storage first, before we umde the IYeit·, I mn,y sa.Y we mny all be wise aftct· the event. I say not only were we led astray as to the quantity of water actually available, bnt the whole of the colony was led astray as to the rimy: that. is, the aereago of land to he serveJ. I think the Campaspe River flood~ at Elmore, and the flow ig eoutinnal, except, perhaps, b ,Jaunary, FclH·uary, and March, but it is slo\\'. Ou account of the seepage, the water doe~ uot rcat:h ns in quantity su'1icieut to be oE value to us during- those month~. We lmvo ma,le a calenlation of the 'luantity of water we require, which the secretary will give to you. 1 <lo not >ill}' that the ,ji~trict eouhl not affonl to pay anything towards n better supply of water. I. ,;:ty wlmte1·er we eonl<l pay if we got a summer supply the greater portion coultl be ereditell for the pn.yment of the water from the reservoir, all(] the acl<litional snpply we got in the snmmer wonl,l cnrtble 11s to colleet t wiee the rev;JIII!e that we collect under existing eircnm· strmee,;. I do not think the am,Hlllt we would be prep:tred tn pny pm thousand gn lions could be st.ated. Tbe Engineer says he does not think i~ wonhl be di1·eetly profitable for some time to come. I think we wonld bco prepared to fall in with tho eon:lition,; of other place;. Tltc secretary will ;;how yon what we would pay for irrigation : the immediate rctnrn would eorno in for summer irrigation. W c know dtat wherever the water is supplied when require:!. even if it doe,; not result in the adoption of intense enltnre, there will be an increased popabtinn ; the farms beeom'J ;;mallcr, and the pt•uduetion grenter. There is a very preval:mt feeling among tho~e not particularly intere~ted that the parties who receive water for irrigation or stock awl domestic nse ought to be re:>ponsiblo for all the liabilities ; hut I say the St<tto should have at len.st half the result debited to them. The Goulbum Valley is a striking illnstratiou oE what I menn. The r.pmutity or profluce ;;Dut away by mil thi~ year in increase(l production, if looking at it from a State point or vie\\", would be snffieient to have made it pay for the Government to make all tho~o works for nothing, and I would ,[ellit the country g·onerally with the whole eost. Of course, that is only a supposititious case as to the railwnys earning enough extr>t for them to pay the whole ol' the cost or the irrigation works; I do not put that forward a~ a claim. I think tho difficulty with the Goalburn Valley is that they are asked too much, lmt I think they woultl be willing to pay what is fair and reasonable in proportion to the mbtakes that ha Ye been made. I think the site of the present proposed reservoir is about 30 miles from Langworner. I presume the Chief Engineer ha::; long since iuspeeted that site, and is able to say whether it is Rnitable, but the Lnngworner site would suit m mueh better. It will be many years before it is Cilnstmcted, and it might be eonstrneted Ly the time that Sandhurst could draw off all the water !Wailable from the nppet' Coliban works. According to my idea, we could not nse all that water for irrigation. I do not know what the seepage would be, but if one-third were lost in transit, then at the most 2,000,000,000 gallons would be the most we could make use of, or that our works are capable of making use of. Th1tt would irrigate a large quantity of land.

959. 1'o the Hon. J. H. Abbott.-We wonl1l use that water as it came down; we would have no storage. \Ve have plenty of water in the winter without that, for then all om· storage capacity is full. I should think the seepage in the water eoming from the new reservoir to here would amount to ahont one-third.

960, To ilf-r. Tremoith.- \V o made our storage capacity such as we thought would pull us through. At th:; period when the ri\'Cr ceases running we could fill onr dams from the rain. Our present work>' are no use for domestic purposes ; we would be as well off withont them,

961. To ""l[r, St,ljles.- We woulrl anticipate relying for a Sttpply of water for stock aml domestic pnrpos(!~ and for snmmer irrigation on watt'l' coming from the Colihan. I shonl1l say that Langwomer i:; about 30 miles from here, and ahoat the same di~tance from the propose1! reservoir. The reason tlw weir was not con~tructcd there is, you remember, thoro was a bootn in water supply at the tiaw \\'C initiatetl this trust, anrl there was a tender called for tho \Vanmg1~ basin. If that boom lwrl JJot !JIIrst that reservoir wouJ.I have been constmcted, and the Langworncr Reservoir too. \Vc antieipatcrl from the way the thing was ,.;poken of in J'arliamet1t that it would have beeH gone on with at onee, and that would have stored plent.1· of water for us. The wn.ter comes tlowu hoth the rivers in qnantit.ies ~nfiicient to fill a reservoir five times the size we antieipatetL If there were a reservoir equal to the proposellreservoir at Lang-worncr every 10 miles from here to :Malmsbmy, in the winter they eonl1l he all fille<l. I do not think the construction of the proposed reservoir au1l the impounding of 4,000,000,000 gallon,; while, a,; iYir. Stnart iYiurmy says, 3,300,000,000 gallons of water arc running over the !Jy-wash at :\'lalm,Jmry woultl make any diiferonec to any fhrmer or settler on the route of the water from there to here. I do not see where the Chief Engineer has saiu that that: amount of water would pass over the by-wa~h in the winter alone. There is an amount of compemmtion water that tlows when tl1e Coliban is nmning auytlJing like ltalf~flood, and it makes no difference whether they impound three-fomths or mot·e of it. If 3,300,000.000 gallom; less water flowed over tlle by-wash no one would su:tler in consequence, provide(] that the deficiency takes l)laee in winter.

962. 'l'o tl!e Cltwirman.-I moan that at the time the water is coming over the by-wa~h in flood there i~ ample water coming down the Campa~pe apart from the Coliban for onr n~e.

963. To Jlfr. St,'l/les.-At all times that there is water flowing over the by-wash there is a fresh on in the rivers, and every one altout here has plenty of water. The new reservoir would not injuriously

GZ

W. T. Wcbb, 23rd June, 1890. 70

affect any of the down settlement. ·from the proposed reservoir; 1 feel confident of that. Taking the Engineer'~ inteutiou to he that t.ho water w:t~ to he impomul<·d in tile wintrr, it wo,dd nut interfere with the constrnction of the reservoir :tt Langworner or the re~orvoirs which 1 Fay< nul,! ho i1lle<l on~ry lO miles down tbu ri•:t'r. The J'()ason l the newro:;mYoir woulll hu no injur.1· w us i:-; tJ•:cam><• :.\Ir. J.Iurray ''uys the compeasation water is nof: to interfered wit.h. I say that by re(ainiu;:: a fJH:mtity of flood water nobody wonld J,einjurcd.

964. 1'o the Ghainnan.-The L:mgworner site is below the junction nr the Colilmn an<l the Campa.spc.

965. 1'o the lion. J. If. Abbott.-If people were c,Jueated to the use of water for irrigation, if there were two-thirds of the propo~cd water given us and one-third, ~n,y, lost in trnJJ;;it, I should say we could irrigate up to the acreage mentionctl in the declam tion, that is, 1.5,000 acre,;. Our works would be incapable of doin,:~,· :wy more. iVe know what tlw pr:oplc would pay prr acre if they could i!,et a summer supply. 1 lu1Ye irrigated a crop during the month d :l'lon:mhcr, and ptlicl Is. per acre. It was R

crop that eamc off early, an•l it paid mo cxeeetlingly well. I should ~'ay t.bat two wateriugs would be worth 2s. \Ye redcon 2 inclws a goo\l ; that wonhl Le 4 iuches a vear. That would be suilicient for most. crops, but not for lncenJc. \Ve eommenee irrigating with rh~ early wheats, about September.

966. To 1lfr. 1'renwit!t.-\Vc have plenty of wnter now, hut the hmd wouhl not take it. If we got water in October, Tile growth that would follow throullh thE' warm month of October rtml in the beginning of November would he so luxuriant tbftt the crop >vould be mmble to stnml the hot. weather wheu it came. \lYe seldom or never get the water in November, awl so lYe iuwe to use it in October. I think ls. 6d. for two watcrings would be ft fair priee. I know the \-:due of inigation, an<l if I were in a po;,ition to g:et water when 1 wt~nted it, it would pay mt~ to pay more than 1lwve ;;tate•l for it. 1 ean tell the difference in the yie!tl the year before la.st 011 lam! o[ eqnnl quality irrigated aud not irrigated; it wns nhout two bags. There were two tlry sca~on~, and I irrigntet1 on both occasions about 200 aeres, and on b(Jth occasions I got six hags. That result only follows in dry yenr~. 1 could have paid a high price for the wn.ter then, but they were excoptionnl years. \Yhe11 1 do not get the waler I do not pay for it, but I pay the rate, When you spenk of a fanner who made £1,000 tlte use of water. and who said he could not afford to pay £40 for it, I eau only sny I am not, one of that. sort. Thfl most valnahle irrigation for erop purposes is in March, before the ploughing. lf we had water avn.ilablo for the pmpose of ploughing heweyer, mnoh of it would be used for that. I hoard a mnn ~ay, some time ago, tiJ1tt by giving water to the land before ploughing the saYillg in ;;hares alone paid him remarkably "·ell.

967. To Mr. lVhite.- \Vo have a rainfall of about 17 inches If there were :t fresh at TYlden, where they get a fall of 00 to ·10 inches, all(! tlw water flowed o\·er r.hc by-wash in summer, it wouJ,J ·injnre us if that water were stored, but it is only inte;1tled I'O preYent an amount to fill the reservoir from coming dowu here. The intention i:; to fill the reservoir in tlw win1er montlv:<, and I prosume it is the intention of the Engineer to allow the intake to flow over after the eompensatio:1 water i~ taken. l tlo not say that the amount of water that :Mr. Stuart .'\Inrr;<y intended to ,,top coming down iu the fntnre woul;lnot bterfere with the people dow 11 the river; what I did say was, t;lw ir:teutions of tl1e propo~al were that tlH; resenoir should be filled during the winter months, and dudng the summer months they would draw off whnl. is impounded and not interfere with the intake. The Chief Engineer ~aid in bis evi•lcnee the other tlay that the rescrYOil" would have no effect on the compensation water. The compeusntion >Vater has ;·eaehed here in the summer ~ometimes, but in such small quantity that the evaporatiou and seepage left n qmwtity which was valueless when it reached here. lam aware theru is no storage to supply the Campa.:;pc Tmst, but I think it is contemplated to be provided for. V\'hon we formed the trust we ecrtninl_y thought there was a storage to be formed for our summer srtpply. '\Ve would not. have formed the trust without that b111ief. \Ye knew the supply by the ri,cer was totnlly inadequate. Langworner was what, we had in onr minds at the time.

968. 1'o 3Ir. Craveu.-If we hatl thought that t!Jis resorroir at Langworner was not going to be lmilt we wu1dd never hnve tlwught of movi11g in the matter of constnwtiug the present wch· above HoelH·;.;tc:r. \Vith regnnl to the cc.mp:nsaticn w::lor, .I h:1ve no knowledge::,: tCl whetb,•r, wben the works -,-,ct•ru con,.,trudcd at. .:\l::hnt'lntrL there wno any stipalntiou as to the water eomi!H>; down to ns, bnt it was taken for gmntcrl tlmt wu w~re oatitk(l to n eerlain qwmtity. Thc-re ''"n~~no direct sdpt:latlon as to it. I ha\·e no irle:t lJOI\' mneh we Hhould lmnJ r()eciveJ, but the amount nnder the proelamatiou forming the tml'!t wa:1, frnm July to 'Xovember, i,OOO cnhie feet po;· minute·, from December to .i\larcb, 4,000 enblo feet, aud from .April to ,Junfl, 2,000 cubie feet. Our engineer, who reportetl on i1 to tltc Chief Engineer, nLlmittDd that the ::mot::Jt of \Y::.ter ••·:ts not antilable, nnd cotd(l only he given when the ;,tomge re~ervoir v;n." l'Ol!strnetcrl. That ',yaier 1 now ;;peak of wn,, JJOt. to l~onw doYt'll from the l\ialmsl;nry He;·.ervo:r foe inigntion. Yl'e l]i,J. not eon,,idur we had any cla.im 011 the :Y1almsbury Heservoir for irrig:!tion.

9fi9. To ,!h. ,'l'lfp1es.--\\'e eunld Htilize :dwnt '!:lii the iJ;U.llou:.;, say, in the new rcsen·oir, all(l I t-hink ab<mt two-thirds of rhnt '>>'OI.Il.rl rel1eh this dbtriot.. The sncrotarv will tell von how much thnt nmonnt of ·•;at•:r wonld inigate. 1 tl1iuk it, would do about 15,000 acres, givi;1g the land about 4 inehe~ of wnter per aHnnm. \\' e would willingly pay Is. ()d. to 2s. }Jer annnm for that, or perhap~ ls. for e:ceh watering. That woultl he 2s. per acre for two waterings.

DiO. 1'u the JJon. lJ. jjfd·m:tte.-We had the first claim on the waJ,cr. The parties to the allotment wr:;·o 11Je peo]Jlc within the irrigating district and the State. They wero the only t'NO pRrtie~ to it. I should ~ny the i\lalm . .-bnry pGople had nlso rigl:t,.; hy lnw, which were mentioned in the proeiamation. \Ye did not get our ~hare o[ the water, Lccn.U''" ihe river did not provide it;, '.Ve t,nkc n very deep interest in the new ~tomge, so deep tlm: '\'e ·wnu:, ~o if possible, if uot ouo·hnlf :tt least 011e-tbinl of the benelit that will ari,:('. U tbo re:cen-oir j,, 1Jui!t we ;.lo uo( hold that ,-,·e lHwe been ju,q-l"led out of onr share so far, beeause the water lWI'er wus tL;;r,,3, lt i~ tlwre l-o-tlay, I admit. The po:'.ition we iake 11p iR thi;;: Fir:ot, we feel we: ,,]wHltlimn; a:: LJJterest. in it, :md it b in the intcre,,t of the i'ltnte to allow bceau~e it would rrwke wlmt is now a iiwmeiat failure intn a financial sncecs3. The water that wonltl meet our requirements 1villnot. b' H.:quired L1 and other plaeeB for a considerable time, and when we reach tlie time at w;;ich JLmiigo wa11ts it, '.VC could coasi•ler the construction of a new weir. I know the agitation for the new reservoir comes fi'om Castlemaiue, I3ondigo, and Maldou, but I know no other irrigation trust to be

71 W. T. Webb, 23rd June, 1800.

served Ly it, and I say om claim is first, aftm· Dcn<ligo. '\\'o ask that yon will favorably con~idcr the allotment of half the water stored in this proposed re~etToir, fnr the pnrpose of letting water down the rivers, to he made use of for irrigation nml other pnrposes, aut! wE: feu! it i~ your duty, as a body repre­senting the interests of the State, nnrl knowing thar that water would be valnable to m, and not Vttlnahle to Bendigo for .'wme time, to spe tlmt th~tt water is let ,Jown to us. If it is fonwl that. the authorities have to sluicers and others n.t C(•rtain dry porio(h:, thou I say, with a spirit of impartiality, that, if that qne,;tiou the slnieers and othc:·s ,,lwahl Le entitled to have a fiTtit claim, because the water they requh·c would in small and would applied to Letter pmpoHes than using it for irrig;;iion in large qnnntit.ie:-. to ours, nnd we would Le willing to come in second; hut I feel snfe in nwldng that stat3ment, J;,,e;1;\~u kno1v the whole of the water in that reservoir w,i!l not Le wanted in Bemlig·o for r,ome >cars. f feel eonfidcnt tlw.t we \\'ould be willing to pay more, rdMively, than what the, people pay 'wln !I0\1" '~out1 ilmte . a thoH';and gallons in connoxion with the BctHli;ro wnter :supply. l do noi say that 1 r<:eognise that rnte is too low, but we would pay an equal amonnt. As to thG rate here bei11g 2d. a thousand gallons, and our that amount, I may sn,r that. it eonld scrrrc:)ly be sold to U" lJy the 1housaml gallons. vVe woulJ he prepared to pay the intere~t ou t,he ontlay, or, in proportion, e(pml to what Saudlmrst woul(l pa.1". 'When I say I recognise that it should he paid for, I t hiuk that the State sltoul;l take into consideration, before they ask to be paid for the outlay, the mnount of interest they have rleri1·ed, directly and indirectly, from the outlay. Other works hal'e been constructed on the of a national work.

971. 1'o Jl'l·. A. llarris.-lt is generally excellent land in this district; it is in many instances land which has the clay very near the surface, ami if yon irrigate in winter, when the hot wettther comes it bakes and cntekH; Lnt with ::1 little irrigation in the snmmer it is free. Onr land is second to none in the country; that is, of a box nature. The holdingR, with some few exceptions, average about, 320 acres. That woulrl l'e n fair average all round, I think, with the cxecption of the Restdown and Ihunewang estates. I could not give an idea of the present prorluetion of the district, but it is more protluctive than any district north of Bendigo. I can say that the distJ·iet is far ahead in the growth of cereals of any other place in the north of Victoria, and that i!l accounted for Ly the fact that we me more manure. There has been at lenst 1,000 ton~ usd year. It is also a very good district, for r;tock and sheep; in face, there is none Letter in the colony. I thiuk a fair value to put on tbe land I am referring to in the distriet would be about £.5 to £,5 lOs. an acre. If we had proper irrigation the nt!ue of the land then would depend on the ol.ligutions that wonld hang on to it; perhaps the obligations would have taken from the value.

972. To Jir. T1·emoith,-Even if are obligation8 whi(::1 we do not par, to the laud for nil tlmL

~)7:l. To Jlr. A. IIarris.-H reasonable obligations restell on the land and we h:1'l f1tir irrigation, the vahw of the land would improYe perh::p:> .£0 or £cl per acre ; that :,, if the ohligationC' \Ycre \Yhat I con­sider fair. l do not hope for the ohligntiOI;,;; to be imposed to n~t•et my Yiews, thought hey limy be ronsonahle from an ont~He of view. I think the population of Roeilcster as a town is about iOO to 800. There is a Jamily oH (mch il20 a'ows, abont fhe membc;·s, H Jhe q~tc:!l were e:~rried out whieh I propose, 1 think n.t least 3:),0():) acres out the 4.1,000 acre~ ent!l(l he irrigated. That is tlw nmouur that is suitahle fbr if we had unlimited water. I have not looked up the quostioJJ of whct.hor that could bu done: pum1•in~~· I tltinl: every 020 acres vnmU carry 11Lont 1<10 1o l+O acres fit for l!'rlgatiou. The proper system of irrigation ib ;,:Tavit:ttion; 1 ;lo n;tt thinl~o, it wouhl pay to pnmp water for irrigation of ceroab or otl>"'' crops.

974.. To J£1'. Styles.-Jiy oxperieuce of the two year" I irrigated was th,at with two waterings the yield was incrr.•nsed threefold. \V c reckon it a bn,cl year w heu we get only ahont 12 inches of min. It is a ba•l year when we get only ry to 8 uushel,; t;o the acre. \VitlJ two waterings, unless some acci,lent occur to the crop, from 25 to 30 lm~bels would Le a re~tsonahlo antieipation. In the years which Mr. Trenwith mentioned we got 5s. a bushel for our wheat. At the pne>scnt time wheat, is worth 2tt. 7d. :1. busheL Or conrse the higher yield am! the higher price would only occnr periodically. It has been my experience that with iwo waterings we lmve improved about the amount I mention. To say that, with the increaEe I stnte, we would only ue able to pay 2s. an acre for watering is hardly a fair comparison, becanse with irriga,ted crops there an' other risks. If yon conld calculate on the extent of the you are to get, 2s. would be too little to pay; but yon irrigate and nothing in return. I am prepared to admit that irrigatiou, if the water is availalJle, b profitable, and you can afford to pny a reasonable sum for the water. If the water were nvailuble, many would be prepared to pay more than ls. nn acre ; but there would be some of the 15,000 acre~ on whiel1 none would be made nse of in some years, an,l it might be • advisable to more in the yuurs when the IYat,cr was ha(lly wanted. J dare say your experienee of the farmers is correct, that they miv,ht This is n bad season ; let m; of!'." That is so as regards some farmers, but I do 11ot think they nrc as [l clas,; in that rec<pect.

97,i. To 11lr. A. Hruri.--.-A~ to the for wheat to euabb us to he paid fairly well, [may say we reckon we can li\'e here, with the appliances at our command, if we get :!s. Gd. n bushel. It is not an oat-groiYiug district, hut oats nre not profitable to groY> uuder any C:renm~tances.

976. To £111·. Styles.-If the Committee recommended the eon~tmction of another reservoir and a large portion of tlmt wntcr came down I c:wnot say what the estimated return from that would be in the shape of wnmiW. The Chief Engineer doGs not anticipate any further revenue from Castlemaine and the other places for Rome years ; they reckon they would he short, aud up to a certain point they would be. The differenec between using wnter in mining and in agriculture is that agriculture rctumR ~omething every year-there i.,; nothing imlefinitr•, you will get something every year; bnt in it is more speculative ; yon may get something good thi~ year and the diggings may he deserted next year.

9i7. l'o 1lf.r. l'tenwith.-In my opinion, if this new r<3dervoir were made and we got none of the water, we should ue no worse off than we are now ; but if such pr0portlon from the storage were gi vcn us a~ I think should be gi nm, we shonlu Le better off.

The witness withdrew.

72

Arthur Etlgar Castles, swom aml examined.

Trust, of my

978. To the Chairman.-! am secretary aut! engineer to tile Camna~pe Irrigation and vV ater Supply and have occupied that position for alJout twelve molllhs.' 1 have prepared the following snmmary evidence-[rewling as follows :-]

The weir orer Campaspe River has recently been repairc<l at considerable cost, an<l the works of the trust are in a. f:cir state of repair. The mtepavers of Trust I belicre favonr irri;sation, atHI won!.lrmcke prolitahle nse of the water were it :n·ailahle at the propet· season:

The Campaspe Trust has up to <late been pntcticctlly a failure, bo·. h DS reganls irrigation and stock and domestic The chief cause uncertain and ermtic natnre of the supply during the wintet· ~nd spring, and the entire

of w<tter in river av<tiln.ble for irrigation pm·poses rbring the sutmner awl <tutumn nJouths when it is in most rlemaucl, in fact, urgently neede<l.

This nnsatisfaetory state of rdfaim must necess~rily exist until a regular allll ccutinuous supply of water from C'ampaspe Rin~r is assure<!, not rlnl'ing wet but nlso during rlry sertsous, anrl the only way this eau ue efl'ectetl is by storage (1f the \\"Hit:r higher up the

.Ft·otn the Engincer•s on first petiticm. nmrlc at time trust was constituted in 1880, it is evitlent that it was <et that time gemm1Jly that a storage reservoir would be C'•nstructed, awl thr1t the Government would assist 1he nBrlertnking. (See cbusc 4 of Chief Engineer's memo. and clause,; of Minister's declaration.)

1 \Youltl here point out that there arc no natiourcl works of tt!IY de8eription in eottnexion with the Campaspe Trust, soldy <lependent, OH its own resmn'<'e'<. and t!tercfot·e h~,s !HL been fcwoure<l with the athantccges possessed hy other

trmts in the in this respet:t. l therefore think Trnst has speuial daims on the Gol-ernmcnt for assistance in seeuriBg a regular

aurl D!liform of water fur atHI domestie snpply purposes the rh·y s..:asous. rfhe idea.. eonstrueting the :-storage reRcrYoir at Laug\rulner hr:s long since be(~ll abalHloncd, antl the trust';:; only

hope now lies in securing a regular supply from the Upper Uolibrrn aml the returns from sneh supply as shown hereafter woul<luntnrally assist h place the trust on a soumler footing, anrl emcblc it to pay interest on a reasonable ercpitallialJility without inHict:ng harrlship on the mtepayers.

If the sunHner of water cannot be obtainc<l the trnc't must necessarily be a failure in the future r1s in the past, and l1e a continual on the State, otlterwise tlte trust constituents ttnrler· c:ompubion must pay a high water H1tc awl rec:eil'e comparatil·ely little l>euctit in return.

Taking the <]Uantity cf water as alloLtc<l to the trust at time of eQnstitution =' ;·:;o cubic feet per minute for the 8Ull11I1Cl' 1110111 hs.

Thi:; <Jll:1ntity supplied regularly fm the 182 for luf•s and waste, irri,;,,;te 4,000 acrr•s t ll'ice \1 ith ratC'payer.

from 1st December to 31st May wouhl, after allowing one-third awl :'l·in. watering.-; respectil·ely-al'emging about 40 acres per

750 cubic feet miunte for the lS~ days 11 onl<l rcr]nire a capacity at n•,·et'l'oir of 1 ,228! millions of gallons; that is llot. allowing eYapora.tinn and losr;;; ]n tran:-;]t <lrnYH rivet·

Uwlcr these cmulitions, atHl r.tssunring the rccommentlat iou;; of \Yrtter Commission in respect to this trust be adopte,l by I':u·liameut, I estimate the reYenue :wtl expcnditme of the trust i1H follows:-

1tecci }Jf,~. Rr1te at ls. (hl. in the £l on £7 ,:Hi Summer irl'igation, 4,000 l1cres at 2s. vVinter irrig:ttion (estimated) Dam tilling

Total

Expenrlit!tn. Interest aml sinking fund on £H, 444 at 4~ per cent. \Vorking expenses, salaries, &c. :Maintenance and contingencies

Total

£548 1:; 6 400 0 0 lOO 0 0 2;) 0 0

:Cl,Oi:i l,i G

£650 0 0 200 0 0 223 15 6

£1,073 lii 6

NoTE.-The aboye sum of £i4,414 is the amonnt of copitalliability as reduced by Water Commission.

For the past two years the trnst has £150 per annum towards interest on loan, and possibly another £150 may be paid on account of year 1898, when outstanding amounts h<tve been eollecterl.

In the above estimate the f111l0tmt of £650 is set down for interest and sinking fund annually; thus the Government would recei1'e annually an adrlitional sum of £:~50 at least, without considering the indirect benefits the result of closer settlement and increased production.

I think tbe Govemment would Le benefited to t!te amount of about £350 a venr. !J79. 1'o the lion. D. Jfelril/e.-If it, is eontiugent on our getting tlte' water, then we shall continue

to be tt failure. I have gi \·en the quantities of water in cnlJic feet; I will it to yon in gallons later on. \Ye do not require all the water in the reservoir to do what we propose. 1 cannot say if the amount we require iti onw nud above what we arc getting now, and 1 cannot s!ly whether we a.re getting any !HHH:Jir from the by-wash and compcn,,at ion water nmY. If the by-wash i~ running oYer now, indepemlent of the eompens11tion water, I suppose there would be a little benefit, to us, but it would be very little praetica] hone f-it ro H~ in the summer.

!J~O. 'J'o Jllr. 1'remcith.-I mean that it wonid l,e very little benefit to us for irrigation. For severnl months hl~r, year there was banlly nny water running in the river. Of course, the compensation water is ni' some nse to ns: in Home instances the stoek of adjacent farmers gets to the river. It may be poH~ible that, in the yems when the rivur is hardly tUtl!Jing, w~w it not:bc ruuniug at ali bnt fo:i the C(Jtnpensation \\'ater at ·i\Ialntslmry.

981. 'l'o the I!on. D. Jfdrill£'.-\Vc require the <}nantity of water I mention in my paper to make the trnst a finaneial ~necess. In order to g·et revenue from mlo of irrigation wnter the w.:er;; of the water must have some idea. of when the wMer will be anti!aUe, so :ts to ha Ye their preparations made.

982. To the Chairman.-1 have been in the Hochester dbtrict tweho monthH, aud 1 have been iu the Goulburn Valley diMriot for about eight years. The water ooming <lowu tiw river in the wmrnn time is of some value here, but it is of no value to the irrigation trust. The people here tlo uot get their domestic ~upply wholly from trust works. The people adjoining the river get their water from the river, and all furthm· away have to on tanks. 1'Iw tlistriet is well supplietl with tnuks ; each fanner has two or three. I cannot say from my O\Yll personal knowletlge whether the river has eeased flowing in summer during the last ten year;;. If there were no Colibau Reservoir at all, but the ri l'<?rs Colihan and Campnspe were running ;]own here, tl1ey woulil not supply tht: diotrict, wtth the appliances wo ha,-e at pre~ent. The rivers would not supply the diBtrict in their natural stnte.

The witness withdrew.

73

;John Lipscomh, sworn and examined.

983. To the Chairman.-I am an orcharr.li~t and farmer, rr~sitling within a mile of tbis towu, on the east side of Rochester, and have been in this dist,riet about 24 years. 1 am an ex-l•ank manager, and now a farmer aml orchardist. I know the district well \Ve have lm<l s:;mt: n:rv tlrv The last four or five years the rainfall has been below the average, the driest since I have ·hce:J nnd the Campaspe was dry then, and the water ecaserl to flow in the irrigation channels. The river is weircd about 6 miles up. 'When the water ceases to flow into the river I do not know, hut I know it 1loes not flow over the crest of the weir at times, and this side of the weir it, i~ tntally dry iu the ;;umrner. It ecas<>s to lmvc any effect on the water on the other side of the \\'Cir about Non~mber. The weir all'ects the water so manv mile:> onck that I cannot tell whether it was running or not all the time. I have been irrigating my la;J when I could. The water ceases to flow in the channels abont the mhltlle of N ovcmher, nnd af'ter that I could not irrigate, and I want it most after dmt up till ::\I ay. I can irrigate from J nnc to Novcml>c;r. I am speakiug now ef my orchard. I have ahout Hi acre~ of orclmnl, and I irrigate a i'mall area besides thoJ. My lnnt! i~ situated so that, 1 could irrigate ;)00 acres if I ha,] the water·; bate I cannot it, as the channel~ at·e not constructed. If I could get the water I would irrigate my or('hard about every six weeks or two months during the summer up to, say, the end of April. I grow peaches and apricots-the early, mill-season, and late varieties~up to the end of :;v[ay. If I h:ul tile water I wou!a irrigate in April for the last time. I sell some of rny peaches anJ apricots before Christmas, but it is only the very early varieties t,hnt arc ripe then. The early peaches arc ripe about Christmas. Y.'or irrigatiug the l5 acres I pay ls. 6d. per acre for one watering, \Vhen it is available every one wants it, and I <;annot get more than one wateriug. lf I could water it as oft,cn as I liked I think I conld afford to pay b. 6(1. an acre three times a year; that would be 4s. 6d. an acre for the orchard, bn t I would not pay that for cereals.

984. To Jl[r. Trenwith.-Yon could not always rely on getting four extra by irrigation; it is problematical whether you wonld always get something extra.

9S5. To 1lfr. TVhite.-As to 4s. 6u. per ac1·e being as much as I eonld afford to pay for irrigating my orchard, I do not know what snccess I might aehievo if I had the water when I wanted it. As to people paying l5s., £1, aml up to.£;), for irrigating orchards, perhaps they might be situated more favor­ably with regard to markets than I nm. Jf they are three times as far from a market, aud three times as far from a railway, and can manac-c to pny those prices, it may be, perhaps, 1hat the railwny people handle their fruit more carefully than th.:y do oms.

The witness withdrew.

'Williarn Telford vVebb, recalled and fnrthcr cxmninc!l.

986. The Witne,~.~.~You will notice that the sccret:.ry, in giving evidence. maJc n, calculation as to the quant,it,y of water necc~sary for irrigation in the season. wltiuh was from December to l\iay, but ltc overlooked the fact that the :mmmer irrigation would extend from the time tbat the ordinary flow of the river ceased in NO\·cmbcr; and it is then the water would be most largely used. Consequently the state-ment he has made applying to om \Ynnts may he dnplieateJ, to the least. Dnring the ol her months the irrigation would he for the lucerne crops mostly. \Ve irrigate ecrcals np to December, provided we have the water; not for the purpose of bettering the grain, bnt to keep the soil in good condition, because it woul.d spoil the grnin then. At all times we put on as little water as we can, an<l if we put on 6 inehcs it is because our fncilitics are snch that we cannot put on less. If we could pnt on 2 inches it would be prefemble. Our secrctar:v s1dd that to give 750 cnbie feet per minute for the half-yenr would require a storage capacity of I ,228~ million gallons; but yon must take into consi•leration that the reservoir you make is not like a bucket ; there is an intake all the time, and portion of that we would be entitled to comin~~: down the river. So, taking his figures, it is on the calculation that I gnvc, abmJt one-third to one­half of the capacity of the reservoir, and I think that would carry out the fulfilment of the objects I anticipated.

987. To the lion. E. Jltorey.-A~ to our putting the water ou at the time I ;;ay, and n heavy rain coming then ant! ruining the crops, our experience i8 the very oppo~ite. Jn 1870 we had the place flooded, and we felt a benefit from that for four yeurs afterward><. \Ve have a snhsoil that wonl<l take :mv amount of flooding and moisture, so long as it d~es not lie on the surface too long. Drainage is not req1~ired, and the evaporation is so great that no matter lww m:1ny floods we get our bnd never becomes ntagnant, it takes it all in the subsoil.

The witness withd1·ew.

\Villiam Gibson Hart, sworn and examined.

988. To the Chairman.--I am an agricultural implement maker, residi1w in Roehester. I am not connected with any irrigation trm:t, hut with the Rochestcr UrlJan Watc~ Trust, ·which has been established five years and a half. \V e get om snpplv of water from the Cam pas pc bnt we do not o·et Rn ample supply thi'riug the summer montl~s. It runs ;cry short during March and Ain·il, during drv s~asons sneh as we have had lately. \V c lmvc not a very resen-oir. vV c have one, but not a very J;ro-o one; it is scarcely large enough for ordinary vears. \V c go VCI"V short in }frlrch and April nml one ~'ear it extended up to May. \Vc have had t; get water for domc~tic nse apart from the Camp~spe. "

989. To }rJr. Trenwith.- vVe have never nm short si nee the trust has heen formed. The shire eonncil l:ad the waten\·orks hofore, anJ they harl to get water from the ::\Talmsbnry Heservoir. The watet· was allowed out, and hatl some wov of g-etting it down the creek. The shire council asked to lmve some water let down from the Malmsbury Ue,;crvoir, 11nd t,hal i~ how we got it. Evcrv dam or reservoir vou make in the wntershed of the Colilmn or Campnspc you are dcpri viui ns of n eert;dn amount, unlcs~ yon allow the eornpcusation water to come down the river to the Cmnpa~pe Irrigatic,n Trust. In December or Novemhcr the water ceases to flow, and then, t:n·en if there is rain, and it gets iu, there i~ no provision 1~ade to ~et any compensation water pnA,; throng.h the weir .. The water here to Hnehcster i~ prm·eutctl from commg down by a water trust that has nothmg to do wnh the Coliban. If they erect more weirs :\l~ng the water8he<l of the Campaspe, and tlo not allow the full compensation water to come tlown, it will lllJUre us.

W. G, Hart, 23rd June, 1899. 74

990. To the Chai1'rnan.-They make no proVJSJOll for gtvmg us more in summer. They built a block across the river, and it must flow over that befor0 we get it.; so I ennten'l that, if yon build anotlter weir on the Colilmn, yon ought to ma1\e some provisioa ro gi~c ns onr compeustttiou water.

991. 1'o ilir. 1'renw£tk.--l. do not lolOIY that we ha YC lm(1 no C<;m pr2n"ation water. I ha vc given yon a general statement. I do not kuow how· much wate:· we want to eorne down, and I (lo not know how much water they have, or how mnch water comes ov.~r the by-wnsh. \Ye: want. our compensation water to come ont of what if< running in at the back of the "co:'en·oir. If they <lid not Btop the flow of the river we would get some water. Up on the Carnpaspe nearly rtll the year romHl there is water runnin1r, and, if there were no ob:;truction,; in the river, some wouU eomo llown. r have been in the district 26 years. I do not know anything of tlw district before there wag a rcsenoir at a.'l at Malm.-bury. The river has been dry altogether in places :tbout hero at timef,,. hut not about Knifcton. If we ever got water at a season at which the river would lmn; been dry, withr)ut stornge, if tbcr<! is a certain amount of water flowing clnrin,g the o;nmmer months wo could eutl:h it.

992. 1'o the Chainnan.-I knew the Campnspe before the Camp:tspo weir was put up. I have seen the river dry seYeral times tlnring the summer behinll tl1e backwatt>r of the weir on the Campaspe. It has not been dry for some yem·s noli', but it has been very low.

993. l'o the Hon . .J. H . .Abbott.-I do not think the river j,; :tlways rmming into the weir, hut my contention is thio : Huppose the water starts tcJ mu iuto t.hc weir we do nut get it out,, or our share that flows iu, lwcanse il may be two years before it rbe' up to give n~ the compuns:1tiou ·water. The urban trust \\'liS not in exi::>l.l'nce before 1he Campnspe weir was Lnilt; but lnndcr~tand, according to the Act, they shouU allow the eompen:<ntiliu water to tlow down. If there wer<, no w<c•il' then we would pump our water out of t!w riYor. \Vc l1aYo to pnmp it. now. \Vhat l say is thi,-;: th:tt wit!~ the weir being there, there is JJO proYision Leing 111ad,c to allow tbe compensation water 10 come thro:rgh. \Ye have to wait five, six, seven, or eight. week:o to get our snpply of water, w!.ile if the weir w~!re not here, or proper provision were made, we would be repleni~hiug our ~ttpply.

994. To jlft. Trenwit/1.--I do not think it would be a good thing to pull the weir down. The trouble is, getting our compcnsntion water. I would not say we ttre worse off with the weir unless, perhaps, for five or six weeks in the year.

The witnes~> withdrew.

John Butcher, sworn and examined.

995. 1'o the Chainnan.-I am a miller, in Elm ore. \Ve are supplied with water very well just now, but in summer time it is sometimes very bad. The river passes us. \V e are past the Campaspe irrigation weir. \Ve get our water from that weir at a certain time of the year, bnt not always. We have no local reservoir.

996. To l!:fr. A. llarris.-We get water from the weir. \Ye aw the other side of the weir tlmt the Government conntructcd to supply the locomotives from. lt is not a very good weir. It is not. high enough, and the town drains the water on the other thereby making the water higher between the present weir and that weir. Several yours sinnt~ l have been in Elmore we luwe pumped 11ll the water out, and we have had to lot the water run from the weir here to get the town supply; and a great disadvantage or ad\'antage is that our town druinage nms in immediately clo~e to the weir, and the pump is ou the other side; therefore by letting tlw water run from the other side of the dam the public has the ad vantage of using the water half-a-dozen times OYer, nnrl sorr1e of them look very well, and others go down with the fever. Of those that look well, I do not know \\'bcther it is from the ·water or Bntcher's digestive meal.

997. J'o the Chctirm&n.-We have a heaHh department in the disit·iet. I believe the doctor looks after the health of the people, and no doubt there is some ~tdvantnge in people being sick, from a medical man's point of view. vVe certainly have a complaint to make; we have been thrown out of work several times for wunt of watee. \Ye do not; 1.vant to use the water over nnd over ngain; we want to let the Roehester people lt!We it. I know the River Cam pas pc for the last ye:u~, and have known it dry mauy times. I may say I ha Ye been stuck up for ten days and not able to umke flom; a11d two years ago in the month of June l had about twenty fires lmrniug in the bed of the river in front of thC; milL I did not know the river hefore the .i}oblmsbury Reservoir was const.ructed. If that rcsenoir was not in existence at all, I should say the river would he dry in the summer. I do not ~cc whnt. the rct,crvoir has to do with the river at Elmore in the summer at all. I rtm not in a position to say whetht•r it keeps the water from us ; it probably may in the summer. \Ve might prol•ably get some water down the Campaspc iu the summer if the :J!Ialmsburv Reservoir did not catch so much. I have seen the n·nter come down once or t\dee since mY residence in Elmore, whieh was ten years yesterday. I l1ave been np hero buying wheat .from time t"o time for years. If the pnlpose<1new reseJToir heyoud the :llalmshnry Hcsenoir were c'onr-tructed, it would do us a g-rc:1t deal of good, provided you lot down some wntcr iu the summer time. \Ye lmYe often asked for it, D.llll been prmn i;.;ed, and when we rlid not got it we kit-keel up another row. \V e have been told," Oh, yes, we sent it down"; hut we never saw it. If you hnd a iionr-mill, nnd were l111ng up for ten 1lays for want of water, and had customers running after you, yun won1rl look anxiously for it.

998. To the lion .. .J. JI. Abbott.-\Vhcn that has occmTell 'lYe haYe had to go a!Hl cut mees out of the river.

999. 1'o Mt'. St.IJles.-1 could not tell to whom we applied for the water, hnt our secretary can give you the information. I can assure you tlmt for miles above our mill, and ulso in front of 1he mill, the river has been dry several times to my knowledge for hundreds and hundred~ of yards at a stretch. I think it would be a decided acquisition to conserve more water, and I would suggest that if the Government are going to spend money, they should put in miniature dams, say, at the lkeak-o)-Day. When the river stopped running by putting such a weir there, from 8 to l 0 feet of water would Mop above it for 3~ miles which now goes on into the .Murray River. 'When our river is in flood the water goes over the land now. It would do no rnore if a low weir was maue-as, for instance, when the river does not run, the water is from 8 to 10 feet below the top of each bank. Small dams could be made a.t small cost at several spots along the Campaspe.

1000. To Jl1r. A. Jlarris.-Although I do not know the amount of water sent down in the summer time, still a further supply is indispensable. Two years ago the Campaspe was dry, and prior to that I had seen it dry, but I could not exactly say to a year or two when the previous occasion was when it was dr;'

75 John Butcher, 23rd June, 189fl.

1001. To the Hon. D. illelville.-}fy mill ic not a water-mill, but a steam-power milL It was water for steam purposes that I required. I h:vl r10t w:clel' lo fill boil.m;. I think a re~ervoir on the Coli ban would be an advantage to HS if some ru·:·ang!Jmcnt. wc•r,, m:t<le a -<npply of c:mnmtH' water. \Ve eonld get it frorn the ne\Y t'eBervoir if tiJe GoYz rnmeut 1vo:d:l let it. c"nw <hwn ihe river. Our place is so situated tlHtt a junction con id tll ke phu•e.

1002. To the Cha·innnn.~-lf the much. vVo won](] n purer supply o!' woulll he in favour the new re.•ervoir.

water i,; let down from :\i almsbmy we will be benefited vety wnte1·. Prodd1ug we get om fair :::hare ol' water conserved, TI'e

100:l. 'J'o ~'4£r. Ti·enwith.-1 conld uot "H 1 wh::t llH:Y shonl<l at the El more waterworks, as it i~ a Govemmem eoncern. It practically ;o them, :Ill·,[ w<• lmre to ;my then1 inttcrest on the moaey. V'{ e are not in nrrenrs; fortunat(:ly we nrc one tl:e ~oh\.'lll trn~ts. \re lmve not taken iHto consideration what we would be prepflre(l 10 it w;; l.:lilnu ~:dc:itiomd sn l ennuot :JliS\Ycr as to whether we wo11ld be prepared to pny om· fnir of Til(' :~tlditi<'n:tl co~L l pay tbo water trn~t. for my water. I t1lll

n nwmber of the tru~t. I do nnt know i!l:lt ,n:· would h2 wiliit;g to P"Y extra, l•e(•ause are CVtcrlaBlingly puyiug tlH.' Gon·rmnent for ;;:nmr-t!;

l 004. 'l'o Jlh. White.·- \Y c do not \Y::n: tn itTI;2:ate lnn<l. If we au inferior doJHe8tie snpply now, and Wl' arc goiug to get :m :·x tr:1 ;;npph·, l do 1w1 think wo mo prepare:] to pay extm, f(,r \I'C ought Hot to get any inferior ~n]'ply. J think we l'HJ n 1s. (id. wate1· mte.

The witness witlulrezu.

AdJourned.

THVRSDAY, 29TH ,JUNE, 1tl99.

~V embers pr·esent:

MR. CA~IERON, in the Chair ;

The lion. ,J. H. Ahbott, 'M.L.C., The Hon. D. ::VIelville, l\I.L.C., The Hon. E. l\1orey, M.L.C.

:Mr. Cranm, ::\lr. A. Harris, -:\Ir. Htyles, Mr. Tronwith, Mr. vYhitc.

Stnart Mmrrt,l', rerallcd awl further exmnineu.

lOOii. lJy the Clwirman.-Tlw:·e j, a qm::<tion 1:s f<> the output if the llCW reserYoir is com;tructed­will there 11ot. hL: more to suppl,1· tho~c; people who are uot pa,1·iug nn,~·thill)! nt ail. The pre,ellt. output is :J,060 mi!!i•>ll i:nllon~ of wnter; tlw qua!ltity tr, pc•lpk who do uot pny auytlliug Jor it is 2,870 million gallons ?-Tlwy pny a ~mull rate.

1006. No, they pay nothillg. Yon ,;;ee the fnur iton>:l in C ?-I :;ec. 1007. That i~ ?,870 million hns thM not a farthing i,; receivell from. Thi.' Committee wa.ms to

know if there is real necessity to construct the reservoir if such :m iuerea:'e as that is to Le to those who do not. pay anything towards the eost. Tho work rc:pn•,enu £5,3b3, apart. from the domestic rate for the 31 I million gallons; you sa.y that :.mount~ to £15,584, awl you increase1l t.hat to ±:21 ,000 ?-You are speaking of the return as prepared at 1he rPfjUC~t of the Committc•e, Appe111lix C, "ho;ying how interest on the proposed eost could be met by nn inerert"C of rates ?

10:)8. Yes; that repre~eut~ tlmt half th1: quantity to be stored in tbe ne\\· reservoir. We t.hink if TI"e e;mld do without that half, nnd ~ave a J,f; that is going to waste IJ0\1', there wonld lw no need for the ne11' rc,-ervoir ?-H I understaml ~·on ri;rhtir, you refer to the four Jnst itemfi in thio Appendix C. Taking the first of thef<e, 51:3 million llon,:, that is the volmne :>t pre:leut. used for puhlie sanitary purpo~cecs in the towns ; l. assume that hu increased lo l ,4~10 mi I lion gallons, nearly three times the pn;sent v:Jlnm<:. I moy explain 1lmt. the ~upply of water for street wat.cring, f1•r public and ehnritable pnrpose:'l, and oo forth, mentione<.l here i;; in(·lnded i11 the domestic rnte; that is one of the provisions of tlw i:t\Y. \YiH're the Board of Land :wd \Vod;.s or~ t;·u:;t is ~upplyiug on::. rate, say. from ls. to :!s. in the £1, is n. ('OIHlition of the p;:ymeut of 1 !u1t rate tl:al tLe '' !:· .. pny it are entitled to h.ki'B wn.ter "ur pnbli;; san::ary pnrpnsu< '".!pj·li:·d to !l:t•:IJ, it is COITeeL to o[ the 1,490 million a~« free :;:1nply. I have in":· ·n:•cil •In .-oh1:w n;n· n,.o I :w1 <Jnite sum that il:e trJII'UH in the uortheru nrc:! .• wonld n~n :1 c >.:il('h ·,,for puLlic ;;anilury purposes if they got it. I comic! er ;tre 011 tiiloll t (j it. if' i rate <·f Gd. in the £I ; tl:e rate they pay !,; Is. in the mul it i;; prnpo,ed to rni-'' it to l s. ()d., nnd whcr<> i.-; 1iw qu.i1l pro quo. That is the n•r1son I i11creawd this !!1:3 million gallons 1,, l,JC:Hi millit.ll r:allon'; not tl:;;.t it wonl•l he ab~olutely necessary to do it., hec:wsr: ""0 might re~trkt ti ose lOWll.'i to h:dl' tile wakl' they ha1'e now, or giYe them none if the supply mn out ; lJUt, they get a prc•tty l'air snpply HO'>'.', nnd we eonlll gi>e a mneh hett.er supply for such pnrpo,es if we had it.

l 009. By Jfr. White.-~ Yon :ny thPy n.ce eulitJn,J to it la1v ?---Yes. 1010. And you sny ,pu can eut them nff to one-half or giYe them none ?-The lnw does not lay

down any speeitic volume; it is the irnplieati<>u of the Act t.lmt tLey Ehall ha re it .. 1011. \Vhen you han; more water than for do:ne~tic pnrpo,;es they may nse it for other purposes ?

-Yes. The la"' requires that llw Board of LMHl nml Works :dmll affix fire-plngs in the streets where tllei'C are mains of more th:m :J :uehes iu diamuler at 1 be re\lnest. of the local nnt!writ.ies; the implication i~ that tlw plugs are there for fire nnd purpo~es.

1012. Drws the Act say that the Uo1·ernment ~hall snpply ilH:m with snffieient water free ?-No, bnt that is e!Garly t.be implicatio11; the wonls enn have 110 otht::· meaning that I can conceive. Again, it

Stuart Afurray, 29th June, 1899. 76

lays it down distinctly that public hospitals and other public charitable institutions of a like character are to be supplied free wherever ca!'lt-irou mains me laid in the streets atljacent to the institutions.

1013. Your Act is similar to the original Act of the Melbomne Water Supply ?~'1\Ielbourne and Geelong were originally in one Act, hut the Colihan was not under the same Act ; it is under a different part of the Water Act.

1014. You think they arc entitled to the same priYilege in Bemligo as in )Ielboume, as far as getting water for sauitnry purposes without paying for it is concerned?- I say the Act settles that. I say that hospitals and other like institutions are required to be supplied free, or those words would not mean mnch, taking the absolute words; but the intention is clear. \Vhercver there are mains of 3 inches or more in diameter, we haYe to give connexion with the hospitals; wherever the streets are of sufficient importance, aml resirlencos sntlicicntly numerous to warrant the laying of mains of that kind, we are to connect them. 'Where groups of houses are detached, or individual houses staud by themselves, it is not usual to put down a big :J-in. iron main to supply them ; the practice is to lay a small tube of wrought iron, galvanized iron, 1 inch or l ~~inch in diameter. In such a c:a~e we are not reqniret! to connect with the ho,pital; we may doh if we choose, but the Act does not say bol\' much water we arc to give them ; we might my we will give you lO gallons a year, but we have to take the spirit of the law and not the letter, and it is, that we are to supply s3nitary water on a scale equal to the importance of the town antl to our abilitv.

• 1015. Do .ruu calculate the quantity of water acconling to the inmates ?-No. 1016. And in the street, do you allow them to take all th<>y require ?-No, I do not say we do that,

we plu.cc certain restrictions ; if they are depleting the mains and making the i'llpply to the houses short, we stop them and tell them when they can take the water ~o as not to interfere with tlw house supplies.

1017. Has that Leon done in BenJigo the last few years?-Yes. I eannot recall any disputes about it.

1018. Do the municipalities objeet to your restricting them ?-The objections would go to the local in~pector and would only come before me if it came to any pronounced difference of opinion. I do not think there has been anything of that kind ; they lm\~e often asked for supplies thM. we have not given them.

1019. Have you any specific record that at any time JOU h:we written to the Bendigo or Castle­maine Council to say that they might take only a certain amount of water ?-I cannot recall any sueh case.

1020. You said that you often run a small iron pipe whore tiHlrc arc a number of houses-have you, in this area, constructed auy works or objected to eonstrnct tbem withon t the municipality paying 5 or 6 per cent. ?-I think so, 6 per ecnt.

1021. H1ts an umlcrt11king heeu given by the several parties within the area we are considering?­Yes; 1nt we are getting nway from the Chairman's question.

1022. Tbe question is-the Chairman has hinted that there may he sufficient water, if certain restrictions are rnnde ?-Guarantees have been asked for and given in some eases, and they have been asked for and not given in some cases, Hnd, generally, if they are uot given the extension has not been carried out.

1023. \Vas a guarantee given at 2.1aldon some time ago ?-~o; a guarantee was promised and never given. The only budy that I remember thnt has giveu a gnamntce and paid it is the Shire of Hnntly. More recently, the Shire of Maltlon has given a guarnntee in respect to the cost of pumping, which they have paid.

1024. That is within the last fonr or five years ?~Yes. 1025. By Mr. St.1tles.-The proposftl is to inerease the item 513 million gallons by 977 million

gallons?-Yes. 1026. I understood yon that that "roultl be eonditional on an increase of the rates?-Yes. Bnt

alloW' me to say, in explanation of the wl•ole of this reply, that this return, "Appendix C," which I pre­pared at the request of the Committee, was prepared upon this distinet understanding-that it was to show what rates, under present cilcumstances, could be charged with the hope of the whole ~ystcm payinfr interest on its actllal cost. I have assumed the population of Bendigo to remain as it is, the amollnt of mining and so on-I do not t.hink that assumption is quite \Yarnmtahle, if you take the lapse of time, 11nd I say, taking the population of Bendigo at what it stands at now and raising it. from ls. to ls. 6d., we would require to show some reason for that--I put that down amongst other things- the people would not be likely to use much more water for domestic purposes.

1027. If they have a large additional quantity for those purposes set forth you think they should pay something additional ?-Yes.

1028. vVonld you say," vVe will give t,hat lttrge extra quantity of water provided you pay us an increased rate-give us a better price for the wnter than yon vay for domestic ami other purposes" ?-If I may use a hackneyed phrase, that is pntting the cart before the horse. , \Vhat I ditl was to answer the question of the Committee in the spirit in which it was put-the question put to me was how could the rates be rnised to pay this amount, and I l•ad to mnke assumptions to meet that view.

1029. LeaYiug the rates nut~ of view, it is showu yon give another 1,000 million gallons for those purposco, but I understan<l you tu say now that you would give them what proportion of that they wanted prod<led they consente<l to an iucrease in the prires for \\'nter tl1ey get for other purposes ?-To an increase in the general rate-that i~ the a~immptiou.

1030. That you will give that or any less qwtn!ity they require for those purposes set forth provi<lod they sny, '' w· e are willing to pay an increased rate npon the water we 11.~e for other purpose~ and that we do pay for; we arc willing that should l1e increased" ?-That is lumlly my meaning. To put it fairly, it is my answer to the que~tion, if you charge a higher mtH it wonld be on that consideration. \Ve charge a higher rate because we gi1·e more water for those other purposes ; but that is a qneRtion of policy. I wish to say lJOre that this retnrn wa,.; P''eparctl in response to 1t suggestion of the Committee's, and the Commit­tee's sug-gestion is di;;tinctly ono of poliey.

10.'31. What i~ yonr ,·icw as to its being made conditional if they get this large inerease of water on their paying l1 larger mte for the water tbnt they now pay for ?-I think I have answered thnt alre11dy. The spirit of my answer was that, ho\\'eYer desirable it might be, or however fair, to ttsk the people of Bcndigo auJ Castlemaiue to pay n higher m to in view of the co~t t bo eountry is pnt to in supplying the water, the practical difficulty of raising the rate would be so great as to put it out of the question.

77 Stuarl :Murray, 2oth June, 1899.

1032. Then you conhlnot rai~e the mte ?--I thillk not. This "Appendix C" was in reply to the Cornrnittcc',; queetic;n-~I may say 1 thiuk it likely that the water will be used largely for other purposes not ~!rown there at all; in what particnlm· way it woUI<I be ditficnlt to say-one obvious outlet for the water i" for fr·nit-growing-we ha 1·c npplicatious now asking· for nn extension of the channel at Campbell's Creek, southward ; there are some 2.50 acrl's planted, and they will pay Id. per 1,000 gallons for the w:t1e1·, which pays well for the eo,;t of the works.

10;)0. By the Hou. E. Norey.----They will only pay for water "·hen they want it ?-'l~hey will ~ak.e water e1·ery year-~there will 11eYer be wtlicient water there naturally for what they requrre-the fnut growers pay 11s \'!'!')' w<:ll-open elmnnels would be used, the wate>· passing through a gauge.

1034. By the Hou. J. l!. AbUott.-Does the water go on rnuning all the time to the ~Juices when the men knock oft working ?--Ye:;.

103;). They \l'<>rk eight hou;-~ a <lay, and the water runs 24 ?-They can work as long as they like; th:.• water i,~ runnin~r all the time--tire !'luicers always h.;Ye dam:', and they fill tlre dams.

1036. By Jlr. Stt;ies.-We were 1ronderiiJ!! whether it were po8sible to eon:;trnet larger dams in tlwse plaees and sare the watcr?-\Ve do not do 1'0.

10:17. Could it be d"ne ?-It i~ a qne;;tion of cost. 10:38. Coni(! it be doJJe within n reasonn,ble rate ?-I do not think it. AB a reply to your questions,

lmny ('all yonr attention to wy an:'wer~ t<J preYions questiom, au:;wers 271, 277, mHI 27H--[reading the .~auMJ. (;niu:r on to answer the Chairman'~ qne~tion, the next, point i~ as to ~undry compensations, &c., lOO million gallons-that is a more gil't.. The 100 million gallon" includes, for example, the qunntity of water that hm< iu variuu~ llry "nmmc;·s been sent down to the lower Campat<pe; that is a free gift, and other like eoillpon~ations at, various tinws.

lu:HJ. B!J llw C!winnan. -Whik• on that subject, "·hat is the ,_jze of the outlet that you let the compemation water through ?-It doe;; not come through any pipe, except that it eomes througlt the outlet tunnel ; it is meusurrcl 0\'Cl" a weir.

I O:iO. \V hen it does not ~,1me up to the outlet at the resetToir ?-It is ucver lower that, the outlet­vou mea11 loW('r than the tlootl le,·el. ' 10-11. Yes ?-It goc;; through the outlet tunnel, which is 8 feet in diameter-we regulate it by gates. The wnter is mca-<nrerl on a knife-edged lollg thiu metal plate, and n stream n eertniu tliickne~s over that plate nH.'!l.llS a eertain volume.

10-!2. /J!f Jlf.r. T1·euwit!t.- You ha1·e means of controlling that amount we ha Ye a valve n,t the face of the tunnel, DJHI besides that we ha1·e valrcs iu the valve house a little lower down.

1043. Can you state the utmost capacity-is there any limit to the power of sending water over­whnt is the maximum you can send over ?-During the recent floocl, last Saturday, water was going out of the uutlct tunnel and over the eompeusation weir to the Camp"spe at dte rate of 600 million gallons in 24 hours.

10:1-4. I mean, when it i,; uot running over what is the maximum you could send away at that time when the re8ervoir is fnll, but uot rnnning over ?-I say, on last Satunlay when I wa~ there the water in the reservoir wns jnst abont an inch above the flood escape, and we were sending 600 million gallons down through the outlet and oYer the compensation wdr-we conl(l ~end a little more than that through the valve under certain conditions.

1045. The people at Rochester say they conld take more water at certain times, and they gave us some fignres of a reYenue producing character-is it possible to send down, with the means you haYe at your disposal, a sufficient quantity for irrigation pnrposes '1-Xo, you could ~end no useful Yolnme for irrigation from the Coliban down the Campaspe to Rochester.

1046. \Yhat would be the maximum you conld send?- Under the present conditions not Jnuch more with safet'}' than we do now-~ probably we could send a million or a million and a half gallons a day for economic purpose~.

1047. By the Clwirman.-T!rcy sny at Roehester they do not thiuk they get unything when it is very dry ami the reservoir is low ?-They certainly do not. lt is all evaporated before it reaches Roche,ter, hut it is HI waYs let out of 1he re>.crvoir.

1048. \Vhut is the least you let ont in a dry season ?-One million gallons per day. The minimum qnant ity we send over the compensation weir is lmlf-n-million gallons, and half-a-mill:on leaks through the channel lower down, as I explained. A million gallous is not much ; the length by the rirer channel is 70 or 80 mile~ at least.

1049. By Mr. 1'renwith.-1s there any po'lsiuility of storing that, not at the resen·oir, but on the banl;s or near tile I auks, a storage into which the water would run dming the honrs the men are not workiug for the purpose of using it the next day ':-The sluiecrs themselves invariably have dams of some sort into which they run the water when they cannot use it.

lO.'iO. Then althougl1 it is rut1ning from :M:alrnRlmry dnring the whole 24 boars it is not mnuin:r to waste ?-Oh, 110; it would he outrageous to let it mn to \Yas'e during· the Higllt:. The way the loss takes plaee is this: Suppose a eh::nnwl b :l miles in length fn1m its point of offtake, or the last point of continuous Hill', to a place where we sltpply the w;mts of slnieur~: droy mny use the \\·atcr for a week, a month, or two mouth;<, nnd when they lean• off they suy, "\Vell, now \YC are going to leave oil'," and they le~n·e the channel till the bst monJPllt, and what is left in the channel at, the last i,; lo5t. Unless we insisted on the people giving u" tbti,:e Wllltl month" before they n·qnim•l to go, or lra\·o the whole thing rcgnlatetl so that caeli would take the watl'r i11 order, we would have 110 ehedc Sonw tiueh method is in use in countries where they irrigate, hilt yon could not do it with our slniecrs; nN we ct:pply it, the eost to them would be enonuo11s.

105 J. )lore I !tan commcusnrnte 1Yith the saving ?-The cost would fall on the uu fortunate men.

1052. You uow lose tlm! wnter that "'ott!d be s:wc(l l undor,;taud hy ,;ome expenditure oH yonr pnrt -~woulJ thu saYing that iN made by the am<nmt of water thnt wonld he rc:aine1l Lo commeu~umte with the expense 1 hat would he ineli!Tc<l yon ?-1 did not :mggest it wunl1l be sa Yeti by an cxpendit,nre on our part, hut by 11. regulatiun on um' pan, mnkilig r0gniation,; as to the time;; of u"e and delivery, hnt t-hat woulJ enU1il losses on the users that would be qnite nnwarrantttble, and that would heavily handicap them.

Stuntt Murray, 29th June, 1899. 78

1053. By11!1·. Styles.-! mHlcrstoocl you to say that the 1nttcr was "'asted, that in some cases thero were small dams con~tructed hv the s!nicer" iafo which ll~e watl'l' r:.111 nftpr tbev left off work?­They pny for tbat.-they pa,Y for the ":hole of the 'vnter llwt Jllli:' throH;::iJ--thf'Y do not let it go to waste -they pay for n.ll that nms in the 24 honr~;.

1064. Then there is no waste?-Ycs, there i:-; the waste ::t the elHl which I have described. Also, wheu we start to supply those people the race may be dry, and it takes a good deal to fill that race; there is a good dml of wa tor lost in thnt.

1005. By the Clwi<·nwn.--Where is the water measured; at the ont!et from the main or near where they use it for sluicing ?-At the on1let from onr channel.

105ti. Then the loss is their loos '?-Bnt wo mn.y have 3 or 't mile, uf elumncl to ser;<l that water to them-we lose thnJ. Sometime~ the ,•lnicers themseh'es construct n ku:rth of channPI in ruldition to ours.

!057. B!J Jlr. Trenwith.-Thcn your principal loss is at the time' of commene1ng the supply, and at the time of leaving off ?-,Tlint is Ro. And also, as I have explninc.J, the channel keepers naturally, and I suppose I might sny properly, take care never to the ;;!nicer,; ks~ than tlwy pay for, hnt possibly a little more--, I tbiuk, as a rule, they get l 0 per cent. more than tlocy prty for.

1051-J. It i::; the tnrn of the se:tle ?-Xo; it is an aumittod impossibility, unless you take absolute basins to mensura the water in, to measure it ab~olnteh·-all our mcasuromeuto- are hv inferential methods, and hy those wo are almost nmler an obligation to gi,/e a little mo:·e rather tlmn !~ss. Now, coming io losses," the percolation from ehauneb, &e.," 1,757,000,000 gallons.

10.'i9. By the Chai?·man.-Tbat seems a large qnautity ?-As I have already explained, I do not think it could be avoided without an expense that wonld he un"'arrantabl8 ; it could not ho avoided altogether, and to reduce it Yery materially I think would cost more than the cost to provide additional w1~ter. If water were extremely valuable, if wo could sell all the water at the rnte of ls. 1,000 gallons, it would pay us to line the channels with iron, hnt where it is a !tl. or a 4d. per 1,000 gallons and used for such purposes as mentionetl here, where the purity of the water is not protected, I do not think it would be worth while to rtttcmpt to sa>e the loss by percolation. That completes my answer to your question.

1060. By the Han. D. !.1/eh·ille.- You understand the pmpose of this return C as being to prepare your views ns far as your experience led you as to the rntes, and if we had to increase them to do so in a way that would be least oppressive and yet cover all charges-was not that the object you had in view?­I think that fairly represents the spirit of it.

1061. The first thing that I notice iR that at preseut you make an absolute present of 2,8i0,000,000 gallons without any new reservoir'?-You cannot call it a present.

1062. Yoa do that without the new reservoir ; when the new res,lrYoir is accomplished you will then deliYer to the public an h!Creasc of free water up to the point of 4,391,000,000 gallons-these aTe your own fignres '?-Excw;o me, that q nc~t:on implies ,,, statement oJ' the case which I do not aLlmit-your question implies that those :•xe free i'tlpplie,~ gh'ell to the pnhlie; tiloy are uot.

10i)iJ. The figure~ an; 't,f>Hl,OOO,OOO gnllona on this return, showiug thnt it is not directly charged f'or; indirectly yott say you for it hy this 6d. '!--'We clmrge in<lircetly for the Htreet watering r:nd :::anihtrv \Yater.

·1064. Tbc umonnr of water ilutL i~ ah~olnt0ly gi'>'OB free by these figures i,; 4,:l9l,OOO,OOO gallons? ~-Not ab,:oluic1y gi''Cil free.

106,5. There itl no mo1wy exten,cion f(>r tho~e amounts?,-You camlClt make ruo!l("Y extcn~ions for ahsolnw losses.

lOtio. You make money ex tensions for domestic supply, bnt yon show none for this 4,391,000,000 gallons ?,--No, it produces no money.

• l06i. Yon haYe pnt down ranging from Is. 6d. in the pomHl to ~d. per thousand gn!lon;; ?-Yes. l 068. Do you believe that you call get rhat money rnmt1ioned on the rdnrn, aml that there will be

an extra eonsnmption of 60 per cent. \Vill yon sell 50 per cent. more water whcu you the new reser-voir ?-1 cannot nndersta.ntl your question.

lOG9. The statement shows a 50 per cent. increased output. I asked for a return that would show that when we hu:lt this reservoir your aulieipntions, whateYer they were, would show the result that they would pay. D'ow, the question I put is, are you sure that this retma can he relied upon, if I express a doubt as to whether you can sell .50 per cent. more watt-r ?-I mulerstand you to ask if I can depend on thiB return as hcing likely to bo r2alized if the upper reKcrYoir were eonstrneted. The firs!, matter to be considered in answering that is, wonlJ we be likely to obtain power to incrcuse the charge.

1070. I do not sec that. Do you expe2t, whou the new rescn'oir is fiuished and the inerea~e in the price of the water i~ from 1 s. to Is. 6d., you will then be; able to sell to the valne of tbos'' 8nms you give ?-I have already said I rlo not think you will he t\ble to impose a ls. 6d. rate, Hnd I hrn-e given my reasons for that ; but 1 put that in bet:aW'll the l]llestion wa~ put to me, me to pnt it on tht\t assumpiion.

1071. In argnir1g iu t,]Je Uons(:, ean l s:ty to the Hons'' that we have :\lr, :i\1urray's estimate of what can be realize<] out of the sale of this water. H yon 8ay this cannot bo realized, I cannot use your estimate? -Certainly not.

1072. With your large experience, ns J, on condition (,f the tbiug paying, will vote for it, and I want somebody with 111"re expGrience than we have to show wh1eh is th9 best way to make this thing pay its expenses, in plnoc of my eontril'ing something to make it pny, I want you to do so. Yon say \Yhat you have prorlnccd will i!Ot accomplish tl•at ?--::'\o, that is not mine.

1073. vVill you prepare a statement wl1en the new reservoir is mndc of what arc the chnrgos that will h:JYe to be rnaJe, assmning that we can make them pay, to make the thing about cover cost on interest ami mmtngement; '1-1 euu explain again, a~ I diu at some length in the momornudum I wrote to the Committee, expressing my \'iGw more clearly than anything I can ~ay in evidence. I sot forth in that memorandum the reasons that appeared to my mind as being in favour of the construetion of the new reservoir, and wo have to make n good many assnmptions in dealing with the question at all. In tt1e first place l did not say, and it would Le unwarrantable to assume, thttt the new reserYoir, which is to cost, with the other improvement~, £100,000, will produce interest on that adtled cost at once ; it will not ; lt must ben <ruestion of time. As I have pointed out, the chief sumce of our revenue is the domestic rate from the town supply. The dome~tic rate ca,n only be a sonrce of rcnmuo so long as the towns remain

:';t;ul\rt l\turray, 29th .June, 1899.

prof'pcrou~. The prosperity of this cli~trier, b depe:tdtmt on the miuiu"' :.11<l agricultural i:Jdustries in the neig·hhonrlwod. and unless 1 he"e nre .n:ulo n;mnllcrati H' :111d at t:aeti 1 o "'to pu11;k. will not be pursued ; that i~ titc of argunH~n!, I ttJOk iil fn.v·nttr of con;;tr:J(:tion ;)t tlic n:YT J'C~C'l'Y< 1 il·. this .A ppcnd~x C wn." prepn!·rd in reply to n qu:;stion hy tho Cn;nmit!· e--wluu r::tvs, :t:'S•>mittg the popnlntion of Hcndigo and Ca~\lemaiuo to be as they :m·· now and rltc indn~tl"ies un :he t [,., Y>;ll it. be JIC :'>'try to ' to :nake the work,; pay int~rcM. ou tito p:·escnt eo::'t, a~:•t:::1in£;· cos', " fair snm, be~i,;'" the eo~!. thi~ reservoir, £100,000. I f:et down the !'air c·•l":l~ of the \\'nrb now n £80D,OOO, and added the £100,000 propn~ocl to he nn<l to<>k t.hi: inter.::~(, at :l pN cent., wl1ir:h is IWL the Tate now P''id, but. at whieb will r.~-L<JITO\\', m:J 1 lw.\"o addel ot.[H,r nnnnal m:tkillg the tolttl unnnal dcl,il against the works. Agninst that f nllempted to :.;ho\\· the r:mrlit, lnade np of rate" tn bo impo~ed, alwap; a.,..;,nming the ra.'es to hn such that tl1cre wonltl br' reaHm:-cl.:le nf ;,tcit\ng them pair! ir nnthority wore g·ivcn to hqmso 1 bum. I hn ve a~~nuterl that ne: to the 1s. Gd. in the £]. lmL I do not tlt!nk it wonh1 be, i'O 1 think th:;t iM r, fair nuswcr to yolll' JOIL I will e:l\kavnm to au,;wer it in detnil in any otlw:· wav \'Oll clHH>se to nsk it.

1074. I thr1nght we r·onlil h:we n :oir.tc:nent lo show r-lenrly rhat when we have constrncted this there can be no lo~s '!-I :m1 afraid no sndt answer eottlcl ge gi n•ll,

10/;), .A~ far n~ you arc eOllCCI'ned. :rou ea11110t prepare ~llr'lt a. statement. ?--I w;mlil not un<1ertake to do :so.

10/6, ?ih the:t h:1s not bten a~colll}:1 i'1 the way f wi~ht•<l it, tlwugh it i:< not your f:n:lt.. You do not con:.i,ler ttiat. yrm could prc;mre a :'tntement simib· In thi" thnt ennlrl he pnt before the HonRes to show elcnrly that this tww on tiny wonld be directly remHn:·r.l!ire ?--In the firi'! phee there i~ au enon:JolJ:" leeway to mnke np. The Colikul works do not uow pny <?it her n;: I h:• muonni dobiled <ll'

upon wbnt iH tab::1 to be the inc:dtab!e neln;tl enKt. I do not thiuk the works <'<ml,J bo constmeter1 for less than £800,000 i!' we; lNd p'] tho knowl<od:;-:' \i(' pos~·:;,s now, which <'Otdd aot lwve been got except by expcrie11Co oJ the place and thr: r•:rplirewcttt.R, and the elmrges imvosecl by law do not pny ittterest on that amount.. Snch being the case, it wuuld l1c0 dif'!:enlt for me to prepare a t;tri!r, withont nutking some assnmptiou th:;t is hardly warrmti:thle, s!Jowiug tlwt it. would pay interest on the n.lilir.ional cost abo.

1077. Setting aside price fot' the monH:Iti, 1dmt mlditional water, prm·i<led the resotToit' is mnde. rlo yon hope to [ prolltably ii' \H~ ;!o l!Oc nltcr the ?-The t'lliditionn.] \\'ate;· f to :;ell would hu 50 per cent. llloro; not aL fir,;\, lmt ia lho cot!l'c't' a few years, anc1 eventunlly, 70 per cent., certainly iiO pet· ecut.

1078. Even at, ls. 6d. ?-Yes. T!tat of <'Ollt'Re iHvoln'!l ecrtain :<ssnrnptions-1 as,;wne tltat mining will in a way that will 1lmn:nul more walr'l'; for example·, we have !Jy,lmulie milling now npon a hC:t!e that tal,e.~ a good deal ofwntc:·, ;<Eii t p;1y lL" a f:lir priee J'nr thc1 wat:-'1'.

10/~J. Ry the lion, B. ilfm·e~·---·'l.'\'lll1t do you !-1<1. n theu:ea:~d g:Jllr;m:-l.hey do not buy wft.ter from u:; Jor tiH, 11ozzlos. the wnrer nse for t!h' nozzl0s thf:v from the cr<·ek, bnt for 1lw geeater part of the ye,tr in Can~pbell', Cn'ck, t wni·er won!d not, hr1 th,:re bnr the Colihan -we ~upply water for the lnilcJ,; nnd tlw of tlw pn,nps,and t.lwy pny ld. a tlwu~and gal!ous fG'' that., niHl rlmt 1mys us,

1080. They enunot do withoitt yonr supplying them with \\"atcr ?-That is so; theY \\'ill fin.l that out in time. TicRide< that opening from h~·dncnlie ~luicing:, I, f. h:wu groat of t'ltu exte11sion of the frnit-growin~~ a:td viw•·<::rowing indtt'trie~. Th" Yine at p:'t''<'lH i:; knoekc:! 0•1 th; head thron~h phylloxera, ]Jut the frni!-<;t'OIYit:g i,.; J<nL A' In the :• of th:; f:·nit-!!T'''''ill!!' iE<h.•l n, I

1ncntion ib:lt a trnst "1.\"as fonn0d ;~ot!l€ vc·nr~ n!o1i6.' 1he ri~·bt ! nl~ r,f Cr:·ek l:r:!nw the Hnrc<Jllrt i~::senoi:: for :rn~t was enlleil thr: !Inn:ourt Irrigation

TnF1. Thtet trti·lt \l':t6 f,, n'tc•i·;,•, n ,d did rr:, ·J\''.'· 11·ater f:-om ih(• ll:treonrt Ht:s•·n·r,ir C'ot11:cc1ed \\·(th the Celiban works for it;, clrnnneL 11 cn:Tic,i Ol! for ;'01lV four or fl1•e years, lmt i; could not pay any interest, ami could not. pay working f)Xpt:ll~(·~ maintain it' work;; in on]er, Finn • it eolinp~er1 altogetber, and the Bo;m[ of Land anrl \Vorks lwrl to take it, o1·er; \Ye t Jl)k it. oYer, a till Binee it lms heen in onr hand~, it ha~ paid !lw "·Loie of the int<?re'l 011 thn mone.\· lo<1t to the trnsl awl working; expe;tsf'~, nllllleft n snb~tantial lmlance. That n!:tkc~ nw hope that frnit-gro\l'ing will prty and th~~,t ~uppJying \\'ater i'or it will pny,

lOi:H. IJ11 tlte Clwinnan. Tlw diffieulty there 'll:ouhi l1e that most other peopio <lown the Colihan aml Campaspo," at Elrnoro ant! Ilochos!er, won id If you are goitl,S£ to irdgate the conntry nbont Bendigo and Cftt'tlemaine, why uot ir!'igate our cr"mtry" ?-Bec:tli~O it it' too far; for 1 gallon ynn conld send to the lower Cmnpm;pe i11 :;;ummPr, you could ~r'JHl 10 (o llendigo.

;082. It. is contended ln· >'omc that von .!o uo~ gp; ;,!] the {:ltnr"''A, tkd then• arc a Jot et' nr•·ea:·,: on the Coliban: i:• that KO ?-So." Of the n~te!'! charge.'! f\1r the ColiG:m, the IC2::>,:i00 a yrar, them ::~re praetieally nn arrear,". At the PtHI of ever,v finaueial a:· I itere Hre f'omc· Hnnll arnonll i,; i 11 arrear~ : j L has net rmidtecl £50, l•ttl tlm:. is ~ll eollc,,:tu:! in il•e t !u·;:c: of fntH' moltth:;. l tna•k inquirY n!' the aeconutant this moruiHg to aseer1ain iltP tnta.l mnmmt o<' ,trrr:ar~: the nncellectccl arrears on 'the" Colibnn works from first to last, awl they do nor :nnounr ro £:~,a year on the average; similarly on the Goclong works the total arnoun! of nrrenr~ Jo uot amount to :±::l a year. Thall is 8orne ~et-ell n:E~dnst the too low rate charged by the Board of Land and 'Vorks; nufortunntely, irt the trusts the arrear~~ are very great.

1083. By 1lfr. Styles.--You1totieo in 1he Cl'i<lcHee in a goo,l mauy case~ it 11·as :;tatet1 hy witnesses that the domestic supply aucl the supply fot' mine:; rat! short, not because dHJre was cleilcient :mpply in tbe Colilmn, but because the pipes \\'ere too ~mn 11. I u that est:inmtc of yonr,; them is £ 1·1,355 set down for centingeucics, but there is liO special provision for enlarging street mains ; would the provisiou for contingencie~ incltH1c any provision for bigger pipes, or would that be an additional outlay after the £l00,000 ?-:Xo. it would include that.

1084, Wilt t,hat amount, provide any fresh pipes whet·e they are proved to he small '?-It wili: but there is also a pro vi ;iol! ef £2,GOO for an extension of the 18-in. high-level main to Bemligo, and £ti00 fer a pipe head-[explaini?;g by d1·awi11[1].

1085. Then the pipes really small !lOW' will be lal'ge enough because of the additional prc~sure ?-Yes, the pressure will drive a am on nt thmngh ; they will supply enough to water those high districts at a time when they do no,, get il now.

S uart :Murray, 29llh June, 1899. 80

1086. Then the £2,600 aud the £14,000 you think will be ample provision for rectifying the complaints in that direction ?-It will certainly be a great improYement.

10f:37. By the Hon .. J.l/. AMolt.-Then the £100,000 is the total cost for the new resenoir and its application ? -Yes.

1088. By Mr. White.-ln April, 1889, your Department, of which you were the head, formulated a scheme for the people in this area, the municipalities to take oYer those work8 ?-Yes, when }fr. Deakin was in power, about ten years ago.

1089. Did you get a reply ?-None, as fm· as 1 remember. 1090. You set out each place by itself; Taradale, Maldon, Castlemaine, and Bendigo ?-Yes. 1091. And then you reduced it down by 20 per cent.-£800,000 instead of £1,000,000-Taradale,

£4,000; Castlemainc, £71,600; 1faldou, £lG,OOO; Sandhurst., £34.2,040; that brought the works, excluding the head-wot·ks, down to £4.33,G40 ?-Yes.

1092. This is your evidence to the \Vater Commission; are you of the 'ame opinion now as then as to the local hollies taJdng this water nver-[reaJing question 12231]-"I think if the Malmsbury works were written down to the value, or what onght to have been their uet cost, £800,000, the time may be sai•l to be within fair si~ht when, with reasonable administration, they should pay theit· way. But in saying this it must be mHler><tood that the Departmcn t, and especially the Revenue Branch of the Depart­ment, would require to he allowed to haYe its own way. You see at. present concessions are made, some of them in the interest of qnestions altogether apart from that of revenue. If the reYcnne were alone considered, some of the conce~sion;; made won],] nut be made, ><ome ure jn . .;tifiable, :tl!(l some, I um afraid, would be difficnlt to ju,;tif'y. For example, dnring one winter water was ,;upplie<l to slnicing prutics free ; men in the district mulmcn ,;cat l'rom 1'\felbonme in a condition of prnctieal destitution were supplietl with water free, and \\'ere tl1erehy enabled to mnke a living. I am qnito clear that dm·in!!,' the winter before last 500 men and theii· familie~ in the Bendigo district were kept from starvation t:hrough tl1e water supply. That is a free benelit to the commnnit.y for which the works get no credit. In other cuses concessions are made that are not so justifiable as that, which injure the revenue, simply benefit an individual or a company or a few companies uud the roveune. Questions relating to such concessions come up continually and we haYe to them ?-That is all right; I am of the same opinion now.

109:3. In caleulating what you thought was fair and rea:;onal>le for the works, you also .~et out a schedule of ; you would charge for watm·, first, second, third, and fourth year ; the first per 1,000 gallons, td. ; the second, !d. ; the tl1ird, !d. ; the fourth, Id.; and the fifth, 1td. Then you go on to say that lid. will pay interest on the head-works, and in the fifth year you said there would be sufficient to pay 4 per cent. ancl a trifle left for repairs for the time being ?-I think it is hardly fair to cross-examine me on statements in the Heport-if )'Oil will refer me to my evidence.

l 094. Will you supply a copy to this Committee of the particulars you sent to those people to ask them to agree ?-They are in the office ; I was not wholly responsible for those rates.

1095. Did you recommend them to the l\linister ?-I cannot >'ay from memory ; whatever was doue, the papers will show-there are n great. many things in making a proposal of this sort. I would discuss it with the Minister, and a great deal of <leference would be paid to his views. The rates asked may not be entirely mine, and I do not think I proposed those rates of fd. and 1id. at which the watet should be supplied.

1096. They were to pay interest in addition to that for the other works ?-I do not know that I proposed those rates-you ask me to defend tho,;e rates, bnt I submit that you ought to usk me to defend the rate I proposed.

1097. You, as Engineer-in-Chief in 18tl9, after consulting with the ::\lini,;ter I suppose, or your Department, sent a certain proposal to seveml municipalites, and in that yon set out certain charges that would bring up a certain revenne ?-Will you show me that?

1098. I assume that-this is from your own documents. I assume that when you asked the municipalities to pay you a certain amount of money you set out what reyenue you would get.. I merely ~sk you whether you belieYe that is a copy sent from your office to the seYeral bodies ?-I think that is a question you can hardly expect me to answer as it is put-if you produce the document itself, I can explain it-I will supply you with all the documents. In explanation of those proposed amounts charged here I cannot tax my memory as to how that arose, but I can recall cases wherein rates that I have propo~ed to be submitted haYe been increased to amounts that I thought unjustifiable on the ground that they would never be realized. But in matters of that kind, an officer in my position has to submit to the views of the :Minister, and you would not expect me to come here and discredit my Minister. I may not agree with him in every detnil, bnt nul~ss we disagreed very broadly, knowing even the Minister has not his own mind hnt is guided by his otlieers, and they have in turn to be guided by others-for instance, I have to consult the aceonntaut who takes the money Ylew, and the Minister who takes the political view. I am strongly of opinion that the ltl. to l!d. baldly, as they staud here, 'Yore not the rates that were proposed, but we can see when we get tile papers.

1099. Could the muniei palities, boit1g on the ground, look after those works better than the Department; would they know the requirements of their several districts-if they had the water nntler their own control, could they then better manage it than you ?-If you apply that to the Coliban works as a whole I would say there is no other body but the Board of Land and Works that could control those works with any effect. As a general rule, and as a matter of policy, if I may say so, I would substitute local control for general control always if 1 could, bnt it is often imposHible and impracticable from the actual circnmstances of the case.

1100. Is it possible in this insiance for the several municipalitie:;-Taradale, Maldon, Castlemaine, and Bcndigo-to take eharge of their local works and you supply them with water at so much a million gallons ?-1 am afraid it would not work. That fact l mentioued about the Harcourt Trust is an illustration of that-the chief cause of the failure there was the thing was too small, and the men who took it in charge were not adapted to the work.

1101. Balla.rat is controlled by a body; it has been said that Bendigo awl other places use a large quantity of water for municipal purposes, cleansing, and other works-in Ballarat, they themselves pay for the whole of the water they get; they are a commission, and that commission supplies Ballarat and Ballarat East. It is their own water with which they water the streets and for which they pay interest for

81 Stuart )lurray, 29th June, 1800.

scavenging the hospitals ami other things--why are Bemligo and Castlemaine different from Bullarat, is it because they are not so close ?-TIICre are various reasons in that ease. The Ballarac \Vater Commission in the first pluce has been exeeptiomdiy fortunate in lm viDg its mauagcmeut in the hands of exceedingly eapable men. From some eauoe that 1 mumot tell, the BnJlarat \Vater Commisoion, amongst public boilies outside the GoYernment, has shown about the hest individuality of any ; tlmt is one factor.

1102. Is that an inference that there arc no such gooil men to manage in Beniligo and Castlemaine ?­No. Then I was going to say, besides that, the Ballamt works are comparatively compact-the total supply is ''cry consi(lcrable, ancl the total co~t of' the works is Yery considerable, not so big as the Coliban ; The amount of money invested is over £300,000, lmt then the whole of the works, from the furthest point from which the water is drawn to the furthest point at which it is delivered, does not exceed 12 or 15 miles, whereas the Coliban extends over 80 miles. Then, hcsiilcs that, in Ballarat yon have only one interest, to supply the city of Ballarat, the town of Ballarat, and Sebastopol, with the mines dependent on them. Jn the Coliban there are a large number of municipalities, cities, boroughs, towns, shires, villages, miuing clistricti', agricnltnral districtil, aml fruit-growing districts. The interests are numerous and diYerse, an1l the acmago covered is large.

1103. Does it. eost as mu eh per million gallons to supply Ballarat as to supply Bendigo ?-From the natural conditions of 1he case it does uot.

110-L Then why does Ballarat pay more for water tlmn the others ?-The chief reason is, because in Bnllarat the who](~ of the water is supplied through pipes nndcr pressure ; in the Coliban the bnlk of the water is supplie(l throul!h channel,:; that is the chief reason of the dificrence in cost.

110;). AH to 1he 1 s. Gd. per thon~n.ud for the <iomeotic supply, I mHlerstoOi1 you lo say that you tlid nut think there wa,; an:· elumee of eolleeting that '?-J ~aid there wouiJ Le an almo."t iwmperablc diffi­culty in increa,ing the rale from 1,;. to I"'· 6d. for a general honse rate.

ll01). In proportion to tlw rateable value of Bcmligoan•l the rateable value of the city of Melbourne, how much arc they paying Jor water?- Beudigo pays b. anil Melhoume 6d.

1107. ln proportion to the rateable value and the quantity used by each ?-Probably the quantity of water nscd per h(•a•l in Bendigo iK similar to what it is in Melbourne. In t,he city of Ballarat I ohoulil think it Joes not diller Yery mnelt ; if you take some of the outlying districts supplied by extensions and small piping:, u~e Jess water ; pr>wlically there is 110 street watering there ; but take the city of Bendigo aiHl the town of E<tgleha w k, 1 should not think it <liffereu very much from Melbourne in consnmption per heat!, but the rate:tble value of Melbourne and suburbs is about £20 a heaJ, and in Bcndigo it is £i) lOs.

1108. Then in proportion to the rate~tble value, we pay n 2s. rate ? -That is one way of looking at it.

1109. IJ!f Mr. A. llarn:s.--lt has been snggcstctl to us that one of the means of getting a greater reveJJJie wonh1 be to incrense the rate that the lbilway Department are being charged. I see that the existiug output i:l ;\0,220,000 gallon;, and you anticipate that they will have about the same ?-Yes, the same amount.

lll 0. That is not so here. The amount you expect to receive is £1 ,.)11, a nu in the other it is £1,;)00; iusteac1 of getting more, we are to get less ?-It is only a public Uepa1·tment. You will sec that iu the first eolnmn, "existing output," are given the adual fig-ures in detail as returned to me by the local office ; in the other I simply gave it in round numbers in millions of gallons.

1111. That is quite correct ; yon expect to get less '?-Prnctieally the same. 1112. 'We autil'ipatctl a much larger amount, and we are going to got les~ ?-Yon cannot

expect the rail way;; to use more wntcr because we increase our works. An engine requires so much water for lOO miles ; there wiil be n smnll increase as the railwtty traffic extends, but it will be slow.

1ll3. ls there any waste of water through it flowing through tlte channeis when there is no known demand for it ?-Xo water flows in the channel when there is no known demand or likelihood of demand.

1114. As to the reserYoir, can any alteration be made in the way of enlarging the Malmsbm-y Heservoir to hold ample water and he as economical and equally effective without another reservoir; that is, ad,litiounl storage'? -Xo ; I know of no way of doing tha1.

1115. Huve you any information in the Department to show the r1rea and population which was intendcil to he served when the ::Vlalms1mry Hescrvoir was constructed ?-No, there is none in the depart­mental records-the files are very old, hul do not go back as far as that : but the answer to yonr question, a;; far as it can be got, would be from the eddence tendered to a Committee of Parliament which investi­g~tted 1 he proposal to constrnct the ColiiJHn works before were undertaken, and in the Report which that Committee made to Parliament~that was abotit 1865-7.

1ll6. Do you know whether it was ever con templnted to ])llild a larger reserv0ir thau the Malms-1mry anywhere ucar the present si to ?~Not :<o far as I know. It wm; proposed to build a .larger reservoir on the site now propose,[ fol' an upper resmvoir.

1117. Xot ucar where the existing reservoir is ?-No, not as far as I know. 1118. lJ 11 the Ilon. D. Jlldville.~ I sec vom own estimate of the value of

of laml w hi eh Y.on valued nt £1.5 an acre-that seems to me to be an enormous value hear it. '

buy 7 50 acres am very glad to

1119. How dill you arrive at that value ?-Simply from my knowledge of the country, and the prices that the Board of Land anil '\Vorks, or persons taking land compulsorily, are usually required to pay.

1120. Does the annual value made by the shire valuer gnide you in that ?-A little. 1121. Are they not sworn to ascertain the capital value of those estates?-Yes ; but you see, if we

took the whole estate, we could adopt tltat lmsis, but in no case do we. The lands wo take are the river flat;; aml adjacent land;;, which are necessarily the most valuable parts of the property.

1122. You having put down £ ii'i, does not that in some degree prejudice you in going to arbitration? -I am in thi~ position: If I put the amotmt. too low my estimate is discredited by the facts afterwards ; if I pnt it too ltigh, people at once, whon we come to buy land, say-" Tbere is your own estimate; why did you put it in at this-you thotu;-ht the land was worth that." \Ve are always in that fix in such cases; if you can suggest any way ont I should be glad. I have put in a sum here fairly high-a special sum for special damage.

Stuart Murray, 29th .Tune, 1899. 82

as that. 1123. vVonlu not some of this land be worth ouly .£1 or £2 nn acre ?-None of it is worth so little

1124. I go bv what it is mtc<l at Tht: ral0<1hlc Y:th:;· ; .. the part h!ce seJ;aTately. In 110 do we !ake 1il" wb·i·· far:::.

QiY;:ii t'or whoL1 fn.rm, not for ·:ultkl' ~rave yo:t tLe ndue fm·

the whole land, and we take the fht, 1 bat Joes not d!,;··lu'e the i" ice. 1125. If yon seized the wlwle J'nrm it. wonld ;1nt be >Yo:·t!J ;t'I;i 'lrl !l<~rc•. The bml I looket1 at on

those silurian ra{Jg-es cou!rlJ:ot lh: valned by the valner at a•1yt!: lllw lw.;f the money ?-H you like to know the amouJ:t oi' tLe clai:n~ remlered now 1 eau fell vou ~mm: o1 tiH•nt-~ome of r.lwm tnc £·10 all ::ere.

ll2G. Tlte Railwnv Committee h:~ve fottlHlrcllJ!;,lic·;> to ,<'Ot nYCI' [.hose di!lleuir:c:s--it ~~ppear~ ro Jll(J

the value is high? -I et;tircly a!!ree with yon ; lm1 what l i~t Hl to Jil;d otd :'()])JO w:t.Y of doing is to put down the price nt. which I reckon -.,-e can the hm1 for.

1121. "Land, special damage~, ''-·-W;l::t ,;ul;,; t.har. to, j., titM the creek spreading up 011 his land ?-He will put that com;trnctiml on his e~t;".J lwfm<J ;<ruitmlor;; or a

1128. Y on feel that it. is to br looked into?- Yef'. 1129. "Shire ro:vl~ and ''; what d[lmage do you d" those ?-\!Ve do a good deal of

damage to the shire roads. I wt·nt O\'Cr the roads with the ~!tire mHl we arl·ive,l at a conclusion n" to the nl'ln:d eost i;. would take. ! doe,; not in any way hind the shire; it is onr individual but we aTrivetl nt n mut:tal as to wlmt Slllll wu would in reason lmve to the shire to make good the damag-e to 1he roads. Prico',.;-brid::;e will be

ror::h cnt c,ff; for t.liat we ltav8 '" snl•·titn!e a l'(,;!d .nt for ligl{t tra+'t:e in another directiot:. There is a roa•l, h11t 1t is impa"sal,Je :tt pre~ent, a!:(l tlu:l'C b.J a bridge to buiid.

1160. By tJ,p. Chninnan.-Do you rememl>er that i expr"""e'1 wy :· th:•t t.hr.-rd >vns ~o li!tlo allowed fot· that, a]l(l '11'l10n yon told me t.lmt tlw shin: ouginc''l' ::):r,·t·(l wilh :··011 that. ill lris opiuioa it wns ample, then it disarmed me r- Yes ; the n,c:Teemr.•nt wn." mnlle w i til m.;

1131. lJy the lion. D. Jidl'i/le.---Thl•re i:'! a:1 extraonliuary l'ri'·e enbie yarus to remove the embankment, at 2~. 6d. p:;r yard: 'Nill th:tt ordinary contract ?-I think so-it is a ro~ervoir embaukment; it is ll~>L n any puddling-. I know embankments that eo"t 4s.

1132. Thr,t 213. 6d. iH for mere excanttiou ?---Ye~.

i lw market value if done bv h:wk--it does not includ~

1133. Is there no method of this more eeouomiea!iy ?-I do uol tl1ink ihe t'ricc is too high. I nmy explain, coYer some that do uo!.appeoll' nnthc f:we. but tt1king the aetual

cost the earth in a work of Litis dn~s J do Ho not think lt \\itl •:os(. much lcs,; than 2~- ()d. In a b:mk of this kind the work lms to he; put on in thin layvr~ ; every hu.s to be (~nrted OYC'I'; the eontmctor must hrwc hi~ forelllan to shift the nlnukr- and make the cart~ eontiuunllv 1akc different routes, and though it wonld ;;uit hi~ Yicw~ to pnt iu ·tltcl whole bank in dry weather, wo ;,:otd(l not 11.ilow tbn.t; they must build it in om r.ime awl nndcr onr condition~, en.111 if hi,; men are left idl0- he may have to take water carts to moi~ten the bycrs. The \\·ork would haYl~ lo he curr1Pd out hy contract, hecau~e there is so mnch plant required alll! so mnch ~lli(lanee.

11:34. !Jy the Clutinnnn.-I kn'nv the rfitenl>l0 property in C:wtlemnino ami Be)l(ligo is lower this last two or t.bme yea1·s; it. is on the inerea~o Ho\\·, o1· tl11· s::mc :v it was twu or thr:;:; years ll[.!;O ?-I :nn uol; aware that the rate:thle vnlne o:' pmpc•rty in Bou.Ji!.!'" ;,, hllii•g o!l:

l 1;:);). It did fall off rJ,out. three ago ?--I d.1 ;wt think it.. 1 k1,,,,. that otH' rcve•1::.· . .,,.:,[eh j,;

nu:inly clepowleut nu t h•.J bn ~ coB 1 i <1::o:~"l r i ncTr·ase,[ e\ erv n•ar shwe 1 ha n: h nd 1" do with the works; it inere:tsed from £1 i11 H'oO ,,, .t:2.),.JOO in 1t:S97-H. • •

llllG. I see that at one time a yea:·s a}~O the rate:tl•!·: mts Yaluc.; at £2il6,07(i in the whole di8trict, and then that later on, two or three year<" ago, it w:<;- 1:, ?--Timt is n very small reduclio11 ; it is now £26a,888.

ll:3i. By 11f.r. l.f/!tite.-Is that the ratoable valnc '!-The totalrnlenlde vnlne. 1138. In makiug a valuation, have yon power under your Act to pml'hase a wbole estate for

rese1·voir purposes ?-There i,; a limited power of tb>~t killll. You proi•ahl,Y remc:uber something oi the Lands Compew;ation Sbtute; that. i.~ the A et under whidt we l1aYe to take lam1s. Tl1ero b a limited power given to the Bonrd of I"and and \Vorks to take more b.ml than it :d.~:,olntely 1'l!(jllires.

1139. Yoa are taking ;iO acres of land for your works, w 11ich the owner say,; is worth £50 an acre, and the balance 20s. nu nc1·e, therefore, could you not take the whole of it alHl re-;,:ell ?~Tbe Act does not exactly put it that way ; it gives a certain of discretion to the Board of Land and \Yorks, and if we used it oppressively it might he quest It gives the Board a diRerz'tionary power ; I forget the precise words. If an awkwanl C·)nlC'r is Board has powet· to iltke the whole and to re-S(ell the land the Board ,Joes not >Yant. You know nmler t.he Laud,; Cmnpenfation Statute at: home, the power:; of public companies to take laud arc limitPt.l very strielly ro i lte :wtuul sitl'S (l]' their works, :! or 3 yards outside.thu edge of their embankment or •·ntt.ing. Theru is uo ~ueb limitati.ou here ; but still it is a restricted power.

The witness withdre;r

Adjourned.

13y .Authority: RonT. S. Brt.;l.l::<, Government Printer, Melbourr::>.